WEBVTT

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<i>I don't see any reason
to be tasteful about Auschwitz.</i>

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<i>I say to you quite tastelessly</i>

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<i>that more women died
on the back seat</i>

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<i>of Senator Edward Kennedy's
car at Chappaquiddick</i>

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<i>than ever died in
a gas chamber at Auschwitz.</i>

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<i>Holocaust denial rests on</i>

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four basic assertions.

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Number one.

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That there was never any systematic
or organized attempt by the Nazis

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to kill all of Europe's Jews.

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Number two.

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That the numbers are far fewer
than five or six million.

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Number three.

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That there were no gas chambers

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or specially built
extermination facilities.

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Number four.

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That the Holocaust
is therefore a myth

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invented by Jews

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to get themselves
financial compensation

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and to further the fortunes
of the State of Israel.

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War, the deniers say,
is a bloody business.

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There's nothing special
about the Jews,

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they're not unique
in their suffering.

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They're just everyday
casualties of war.

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What's the fuss?

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Okay, and here's
another question,

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how do we know
the Holocaust happened?

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Seriously. I'm asking.
How do we prove it?

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Photographic evidence?

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Not one person in
this room or outside it

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has ever seen a photograph
of a Jew inside a gas chamber.

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You know why?

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Because the Germans made sure
that none were ever taken.

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So how do we know?

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How do we know
that so many were murdered?

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So what's the proof?
Where's the proof?

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How strong is it?

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<i>Good morning on Veterans Day,</i>

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<i>ceremonies being held today</i>

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<i>here in Washington
and across the country.</i>

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<i>Here, Mutt.
I'm Bob Edwards.</i>

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<i>Today is Friday, November 11th,</i>

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and <i>this is NPR's
Morning Edition.</i>

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<i>- Morning, Professor Lipstadt.
- Good morning.</i>

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Good morning, Professor.
Morning.

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- Morning.
- Morning.

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Speech. Two copies
with corrections.

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And Jamie called from NBC.

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They still want the
interview about the book.

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These go back to the library.
You make copies.

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All right.
<i>I'll</i> take this.

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And he needs water.

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- You want a hand with that?
- I'm okay.

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<i>And Atlanta
weather on this Veterans Day,</i>

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<i>mostly sunny
with clouds creeping in</i>

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<i>by the end of the afternoon.</i>

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I do a lot of these events.

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So if you could put
a table at the back.

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Right by the door, uh,
perfect as they leave.

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Oh, I certainly will.

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<i>Any writer
will tell you, at these events</i>

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you always sell 37 books.

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No matter what size,
uh, the audience.

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If it's 50 people, 37 books

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and I'm wondering, you know, is it fixed?
Do you think it's fixed?

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Thank you so much, Deborah.

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But I think we better
get things started, yeah?

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Everyone, it is
my pleasure to introduce

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the holder of the Dorot Chair

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in Jewish and Holocaust Studies

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at Emory University

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<i>and the author of
Denying the Holocaust;</i>

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<i>The Growing Assault
on Truth and Memory,</i>

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Deborah Lipstadt.

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Whatever the reasons
that people become deniers,

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when you look closely,

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they often have an agenda
which they won't admit to.

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So denial is a pick
to undo the lock

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to open the door
to something else.

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Yes.

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Somebody told me you
don't debate with people

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who say the Holocaust
didn't happen.

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Uh, that is correct.

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Like I don't debate with
people who say Elvis is alive.

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Talking to people
you don't agree with,

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that's democracy, isn't it?

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It's cowardly
not to talk to them.

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Are you calling me a coward?

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Well...
No, no, listen.

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I... I don't see it that way.

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You can have opinions
about the Holocaust.

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You can argue about
why it happened

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and how it happened.

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But what I won't do is meet
with anyone, anyone,

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who says it didn't happen.

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Because the Holocaust
happened. It happened.

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And that isn't opinion.
That's fact.

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And I won't debate fact.

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In your book,
why do you continually

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denigrate the work
of David Irving?

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He's a scholar.
He's discovered all sorts of

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primary sources
no one else knew about.

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Well, to be honest,

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I don't think
I do denigrate him.

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Actually, I don't really
think about him that much.

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I don't think
he's worth my time.

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Yes, sir.
Gentleman in the back.

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Professor Lipstadt.

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Uh, let me reveal
something to you, Professor.

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I am that David Irving about
whom you have been so rude.

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Yes, yes, lam he.

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And it puzzles me

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that you think yourself
qualified to attack me,

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given that I have 30 years'
experience in the archives

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and my books have
been published by

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some of the greatest publishing
houses in the world.

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Viking Press, William Morrow,
E.P. Dutton.

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I have to conclude

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that the reason you don't engage

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with people you disagree with

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is because you can't and
you might learn some facts.

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Facts, Miss Lipstadt,

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which don't suit your opinions.

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Well? Well?

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Mr. Irving,
I will not debate you.

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Not here. Not now. Not ever.

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So if you would please
just sit down

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and you can go and speak

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in another room at another time.

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You want gullible students
to believe

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that there are mounds
of documents

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which prove a Holocaust.

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You even said that
Hitler ordered it.

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Well, I've got $1,000

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in my pocket.
Yes, $1,000,

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and I'm willing to
give that $1,000

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to anyone, anyone,
who can show me a document

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that proves that Hitler ordered
the killing of the Jews.

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Here it is.
This is not your Q&A.

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You can go and
speak somewhere else.

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Who pays for you
to write your books?

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I need someone from security.

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Who is it that finances
all your expensive trips...

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Sit down. Mr. Irving!
Sit down or leave.

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Can you deal with this guy?

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Okay, step in.

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Ah, Miss Lipstadt
not only won't debate.

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She calls security
to stop me from debating.

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No, leave it. Leave it. GUARD:
I'm gonna need you to sit down.

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So be it.
If anybody wants,

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I shall be signing my books
after the event.

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My books, they're free.

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Come and get one.

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Thank you.

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$1,000! $1,000!

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An example of real history.

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I hope you find it edifying.

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Real history opposed to

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manufactured history
and sentimentalized.

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Ah.

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<i>Today I've heard you
telling lies to students.</i>

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<i>Speak in another room
at another time.</i>

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<i>You want gullible
students to believe...</i>

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Perfect.

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<i>Deborah, I'm glad you've called.</i>

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<i>It's wonderful to hear from you.</i>

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<i>I'm guessing you got our letter.</i>

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<i>It's why I'm calling.</i>

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Irving's just sent us notice of a
suit to be filed in the High Court

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<i>because we've failed
to withdraw the book.</i>

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<i>The High Court?
The High Court in London.</i>

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<i>It's a libel suit.</i>

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He's saying you're part of a
concerted worldwide conspiracy

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to rob him of his reputation
as a professional historian

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<i>and thereby of his livelihood.</i>

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I Wish.

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So what's the next step?

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Next step is, you tell us
if you want to fight.

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A throng
<i>with</i> 400 skinheads, neo-Nazis

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<i>and supporters of
extreme right-wing groups.</i>

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<i>The British historian
David Irving,</i>

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<i>speaking in German,
addressed the rally...</i>

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<i>telling
them that Germans no longer</i>

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<i>had anything to be ashamed of.</i>

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<i>Praising Hitler's deputy,
Rudolf Hess,</i>

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<i>as a German hero and a martyr.</i>

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<i>According to
the evidence I've seen,</i>

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<i>there were no gas chambers
anywhere at Auschwitz.</i>

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<i>I'm dealing with Auschwitz
because it's the capital ship</i>

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<i>of the whole Holocaust campaign.</i>

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<i>Now if Auschwitz sinks,
and it is, believe me,</i>

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<i>a very leaky vessel indeed,</i>

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<i>then the whole Holocaust
campaign is in doubt.</i>

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<i>- I've decided. I'm taking him on.
- What?</i>

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Why are you letting
him get to you?

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Nine-tenths of these things
don't even get to court.

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They don't get to court 'cause
people settle. I can't settle.

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The man's a liar.
Someone needs to say so.

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What I don't get,
why has he chosen you?

201
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Know what I think?

202
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I have two essential
qualifications for David Irving.

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I'm a woman and I'm a Jew.

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He gets more bang for his buck.

205
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So this is your book
on denial he's objecting to?

206
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Correct.
Did you even mention Irving?

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What did you say about him?

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I think I called him
a Hitler partisan

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who distorted evidence

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in order to reach historically
untenable conclusions.

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Okay, well, maybe you better
get yourself lawyered up.

212
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Here you go.

213
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You must be Anthony Julius.

214
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And you must be
Deborah Lipstadt.

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Please.

216
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Good of you to come all this way.
It's my pleasure.

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And it's nice to combine
our meeting with a lecture.

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Anti-Semitism
in the poetry of T.S. Eliot.

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Yes, correct.

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I'm looking forward
to hearing you speak.

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You're not afraid of
taking on the big boys.

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I try not to be.

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In fact I was wondering

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if it was my interest
in anti-Semitism

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which made you consider
me to represent you.

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In fact not.
Or if it was the Diana thing.

227
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Uh, no.

228
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Someone I know said to me,

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"You need a junkyard dog

230
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"and in England
that's Anthony Julius."

231
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Right, right.
Junkyard dog...

232
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Oh, someone who's gonna be
ferocious in court.

233
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Oh, well, I'm afraid
I don't appear in court.

234
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I prepare the case,
I don't present it.

235
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In Britain,
solicitor and barrister

236
00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:11.680
are two quite
different functions.

237
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And, uh, you mentioned
"the Diana thing." I...

238
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I don't know what that is.

239
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Diana is the...
Is the Princess of Wales.

240
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Well, yes, I know that.

241
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I just don't know what
your connection to her is.

242
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Uh, no, just, um,

243
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that Diana needed a divorce
and I acted for her.

244
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You represented her?

245
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Yes, yes.

246
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But I thought
you did defamation.

247
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Well, you're quite right.
I... I...

248
00:13:39.800 --> 00:13:41.245
I put that point
to Diana herself.

249
00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:44.130
I said, "I've never handled
a divorce case before."

250
00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:46.646
And she said,
"That's all right, Mr. Julius.

251
00:13:47.440 --> 00:13:49.363
"I've never been
divorced before."

252
00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:53.560
Interesting woman.

253
00:13:54.760 --> 00:13:55.976
Deborah, I have to warn you

254
00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:58.526
that there's a reason why he's
bringing the case in London.

255
00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:00.841
I wondered about that.
Thank you very much.

256
00:14:00.920 --> 00:14:02.206
You're welcome.

257
00:14:02.520 --> 00:14:04.363
It's to his advantage.

258
00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:05.566
Over here in America,

259
00:14:05.640 --> 00:14:07.608
uh, if you're accused
of defaming someone,

260
00:14:07.680 --> 00:14:10.081
then it's up to them to prove
that what you said is untrue.

261
00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:11.531
In the UK, the reverse is true.

262
00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:13.762
Wait. I have to prove
what I said was true?

263
00:14:13.880 --> 00:14:16.326
Mmm. Correct. Yes, but
I'm the innocent party.

264
00:14:16.760 --> 00:14:17.966
A man accuses you of something

265
00:14:18.040 --> 00:14:20.122
and it's your job
to prove he's wrong?

266
00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:22.123
It's against natural justice.

267
00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:23.896
In the US there's
a presumption of innocence.

268
00:14:23.920 --> 00:14:25.126
Yeah, not in the UK.

269
00:14:27.440 --> 00:14:28.521
Tricky, isn't it?

270
00:14:31.920 --> 00:14:33.445
So what do you know
about Mr. Irving?

271
00:14:33.680 --> 00:14:35.523
Well, I've read
every word he's written.

272
00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:37.204
I know some of
the personal stuff.

273
00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:39.284
His father abandoned him
when he was four.

274
00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:41.096
He fell in love with Hitler
when he was eight.

275
00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:43.576
His brother said he used to run
around bombed-out buildings in London

276
00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.284
during the Blitz shouting,
"Heil Hitler."

277
00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:47.408
He's self-educated.
Extremely proud of it.

278
00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:49.767
He learned his German
working in a factory.

279
00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.525
I hear it's perfect.
Yeah. How's yours?

280
00:14:52.600 --> 00:14:53.726
Adequate.

281
00:14:53.800 --> 00:14:55.768
He wants it both ways,
Mr. Irving.

282
00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.320
He wants to be the brilliant
maverick, the provocateur

283
00:14:58.400 --> 00:15:00.562
who comes along and reinvents
the Second World War.

284
00:15:00.640 --> 00:15:02.563
But he also wants respect,

285
00:15:02.640 --> 00:15:04.847
the respect of his colleagues
in the club.

286
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:08.970
England's a club, Deborah,
and he wants to join.

287
00:15:09.040 --> 00:15:10.326
But he's an anti-Semite.

288
00:15:10.400 --> 00:15:13.609
You'd be amazed how many military
historians see that as just a detail.

289
00:15:13.680 --> 00:15:15.040
They see him
as a serious historian

290
00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:17.242
who happens to see things
from Hitler's point of view.

291
00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:18.440
Yeah, but it's not a detail.

292
00:15:18.520 --> 00:15:21.281
You know, I think it's at the center
of everything he thinks and does.

293
00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:23.800
So do I. Yeah. He's a liar
and a falsifier of history.

294
00:15:23.880 --> 00:15:25.848
Yes, and this may be
the chance to say so.

295
00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:30.328
My mother named me Devorah.

296
00:15:30.400 --> 00:15:31.686
You know what it means.

297
00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:33.603
Leader. Defender
of her people.

298
00:15:33.880 --> 00:15:35.211
Warrior.

299
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.651
There was an expectation
when I was a kid.

300
00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:42.121
My mother always said
there was gonna be an event.

301
00:15:42.560 --> 00:15:45.530
That I was picked out.
I was chosen.

302
00:15:48.160 --> 00:15:49.685
Well, here it is.

303
00:15:57.280 --> 00:15:59.044
Good morning.
I think we're expected.

304
00:16:09.440 --> 00:16:12.205
Goodness me. Oh. Ah.

305
00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.403
Ah, yes, hello,
delighted to see you.

306
00:16:16.640 --> 00:16:17.687
I'm David Irving.

307
00:16:17.760 --> 00:16:20.081
Here, take Jessica, please.

308
00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.811
Darling, Daddy's just going
to be busy for a minute.

309
00:16:23.920 --> 00:16:25.604
Here we are.
A little treat for you.

310
00:16:25.680 --> 00:16:27.842
Yes, open and...

311
00:16:27.920 --> 00:16:30.969
What's it going to be?
A red one. Ooh-oh-oh.

312
00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:33.931
Darling. Bye-bye.

313
00:16:35.280 --> 00:16:38.682
You must be, uh, bringing me
Miss Lipstadt's documents.

314
00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:39.886
Yes.

315
00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.247
That's everything that
contributed to her analysis.

316
00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.169
The full extent of her research.

317
00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:46.004
You must be her representatives.

318
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.368
Yes. I'm James Libson
and, uh, this is Miss Tyler.

319
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:52.683
She's our paralegal.
Paralegals indeed.

320
00:16:52.760 --> 00:16:54.808
David against Goliath, already.

321
00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:59.368
You must work with the,
uh, famous Mr. Julius?

322
00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:00.680
Yes.

323
00:17:00.760 --> 00:17:03.411
Gonna be a fascinating
encounter, don't you think?

324
00:17:05.800 --> 00:17:07.006
Fascinating.

325
00:17:07.080 --> 00:17:10.562
You see, as I see it,
it's academia versus the rest.

326
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.802
Remember,
the greatest historians

327
00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:14.848
have never been academics.
We're outsiders.

328
00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.766
Cato, Thucydides,
Gibbon, Churchill...

329
00:17:19.280 --> 00:17:20.691
I field a very strong team.

330
00:17:20.760 --> 00:17:21.896
Perhaps you'd like a cup of tea?

331
00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:24.605
Uh, no, thank you. There's just
one more thing before we leave.

332
00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:26.926
You keep a diary?

333
00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:29.206
Yes, yes, um...

334
00:17:29.280 --> 00:17:31.044
We'd like to apply
to include the diary

335
00:17:31.120 --> 00:17:32.849
in the process of discovery.

336
00:17:33.320 --> 00:17:34.401
Hmm.

337
00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:36.806
You... You're smiling.

338
00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:39.129
Well, I don't much
fancy the prospect

339
00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.806
of Miss Lipstadt poring over
my private writings.

340
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.087
Oh, no, no. Access would
be limited to us,

341
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:45.525
the legal team only.

342
00:17:50.280 --> 00:17:51.486
Come.

343
00:17:55.720 --> 00:17:58.451
I've kept a diary for 20 years.

344
00:18:03.120 --> 00:18:05.088
I promise, I've nothing to hide.

345
00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:09.326
But I doubt if even Goliath
has the resources

346
00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:12.842
to read between 10
and 20 million words.

347
00:18:34.840 --> 00:18:37.256
<i>And straightaway
you can see that perhaps tonight,</i>

348
00:18:37.280 --> 00:18:39.965
<i>uh, Gareth Southgate
could be the toast of Rio,</i>

349
00:18:40.040 --> 00:18:41.963
<i>'cause Villa are 2-1 up</i>

350
00:18:42.040 --> 00:18:44.691
<i>at the home of the league
leaders, Leeds United.</i>

351
00:18:44.760 --> 00:18:46.842
<i>Let's get the latest
on that now. Harry Gration.</i>

352
00:18:47.360 --> 00:18:48.771
<i>Yes, Ray, the new century</i>

353
00:18:48.840 --> 00:18:50.569
<i>and a miracle has
just about happened.</i>

354
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.244
<i>Two goals from Gareth Southgate</i>

355
00:18:52.360 --> 00:18:53.800
<i>have given Villa
a richly deserved...</i>

356
00:19:03.760 --> 00:19:06.161
All right. That's five...

357
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.607
Yes. No,
that's too much. I need...

358
00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:09.806
Okay.
Lovely.

359
00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:12.486
Have a nice day. Bye.
Cheers, then.

360
00:19:25.080 --> 00:19:26.684
Oh, thank you.

361
00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:42.365
Ah, here she is!

362
00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:44.010
Here she is.
The client. The defendant.

363
00:19:44.120 --> 00:19:45.963
All the way from Atlanta.
Anthony.

364
00:19:46.120 --> 00:19:47.804
You sure you got enough people?

365
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:49.536
Well, we'll introduce you
to everyone as we go.

366
00:19:49.560 --> 00:19:51.767
But for the moment,
everybody, Deborah Lipstadt.

367
00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:53.763
- Say good morning.
- Morning, Deborah.

368
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:55.968
Morning. I'm, uh, Richard Evans.
How do you do?

369
00:19:56.200 --> 00:19:57.486
Hello.
How are you?

370
00:19:57.560 --> 00:20:00.211
Richard is, uh, Professor of
Modern History at Cambridge.

371
00:20:00.280 --> 00:20:03.011
Yes, I know. I know.
I asked for you specifically.

372
00:20:03.080 --> 00:20:04.241
Oh, yes, of course.

373
00:20:04.320 --> 00:20:07.051
Well, uh, Richard is gonna be one
of our eight expert witnesses.

374
00:20:07.120 --> 00:20:09.202
It's a pleasure to meet you.
It's an honor.

375
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:13.121
Anthony. ls that a...

376
00:20:15.040 --> 00:20:17.042
ls that a note
from the Princess?

377
00:20:17.120 --> 00:20:19.771
Uh, yes, yes, His, yes, yes.

378
00:20:20.560 --> 00:20:22.289
Hoping for
a similar result with you.

379
00:20:22.520 --> 00:20:24.249
You wanna do to
the Holocaust deniers

380
00:20:24.320 --> 00:20:25.685
what you did to the monarchy?

381
00:20:25.880 --> 00:20:28.531
Um... Yeah. Sort of.

382
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:30.611
Well, I think we should argue

383
00:20:30.680 --> 00:20:34.002
that David Irving
is not a real historian.

384
00:20:34.520 --> 00:20:35.806
Oh, right. Well,

385
00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:37.490
we'll be sure to
take that on board.

386
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:39.240
Thank you so much.

387
00:20:39.320 --> 00:20:42.324
James. James is gonna talk you
through your legal options.

388
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:44.562
I'm, uh... I'm James Libson.
I work with Anthony.

389
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:46.523
We've spoken.
Yes, yes, yes. Carry on.

390
00:20:47.320 --> 00:20:49.096
So normally
there are, uh, three routes

391
00:20:49.120 --> 00:20:51.327
that any libel defender
can take, okay?

392
00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:53.926
So, first of all,
you can argue that

393
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.321
Irving is misinterpreting
the offending words.

394
00:20:56.480 --> 00:20:58.496
Mmm-hmm. However, since
at one point in your book

395
00:20:58.520 --> 00:21:02.002
you say that Irving seems to conceive
of himself as continuing Hitler's work,

396
00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:03.976
I don't think we can say
he's misinterpreting anything.

397
00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:05.286
I don't think we can.

398
00:21:05.360 --> 00:21:06.691
Nor can we take
the second route,

399
00:21:06.760 --> 00:21:08.888
which would be just to say
that the offending words

400
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:10.610
aren't as offensive
as Irving makes out.

401
00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:12.896
- Oh, we can't take that route.
- No, they're offensive.

402
00:21:12.920 --> 00:21:14.888
I hope so.
God knows I tried to be.

403
00:21:15.040 --> 00:21:18.010
Yeah. So really it does
just leave us with this one option.

404
00:21:18.080 --> 00:21:19.605
We call this
the atom bomb defense.

405
00:21:19.680 --> 00:21:21.091
That's the one
we're gonna go for.

406
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:22.605
We plead justification.

407
00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:24.967
So even if the words
are defamatory,

408
00:21:25.040 --> 00:21:26.849
they are still
nevertheless true.

409
00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:28.976
Quite. Not every word. It
doesn't have to be every word.

410
00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.776
We can get some things wrong.
But we do have to prove,

411
00:21:30.800 --> 00:21:32.450
what we call
"the sting" of the libel.

412
00:21:32.560 --> 00:21:35.211
We argue that Irving deliberately
subordinated the truth

413
00:21:35.280 --> 00:21:36.964
in order to propagate
anti-Semitism

414
00:21:37.040 --> 00:21:38.963
and engender sympathy
for the Third Reich.

415
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:41.816
- More coffee?
- No, thank you.

416
00:21:41.840 --> 00:21:43.365
- Yeah.
- Um...

417
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:45.496
We are still left with the special
problem that we have in the UK

418
00:21:45.520 --> 00:21:48.171
that the burden of proof
lies with the accused.

419
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:50.096
Um, I'd like you to listen to Laura.
Have you met Laura?

420
00:21:50.120 --> 00:21:51.360
Miss Lipstadt.
Hello.

421
00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.762
Uh, Laura's 23.
Uh, it's her first case.

422
00:21:54.840 --> 00:21:57.366
We've just been discussing this very point.
Attack it, Laura.

423
00:21:57.440 --> 00:22:00.523
We feel... Anthony feels,
oddly in this particular case,

424
00:22:00.600 --> 00:22:02.011
the peculiarity
of the British law

425
00:22:02.080 --> 00:22:04.082
can actually work to our advantage.
Yes. Say.

426
00:22:04.520 --> 00:22:06.010
The first reaction everyone has

427
00:22:06.080 --> 00:22:07.764
when they hear about
this trial is horror.

428
00:22:07.840 --> 00:22:09.330
More like disbelief. I mean,

429
00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:11.880
a court of law has to be a
lousy place to judge history.

430
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:13.644
I must agree, as a historian.

431
00:22:13.720 --> 00:22:15.449
They say, "My God,
are you serious?

432
00:22:15.560 --> 00:22:18.131
"You sit down in a court and
some pompous English judge

433
00:22:18.200 --> 00:22:19.850
"rules on whether
the Holocaust happened?"

434
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.367
And let's think about this.
What if we lose? Huh?

435
00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:26.284
It suddenly becomes acceptable,
it becomes respectable

436
00:22:26.360 --> 00:22:27.850
to say the Holocaust
didn't happen?

437
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:30.366
Has anyone thought about
what that will mean?

438
00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:32.841
But the wonderful thing is, you
see, if we play this right,

439
00:22:32.920 --> 00:22:35.240
it's not going to be Irving
putting the Holocaust on trial.

440
00:22:35.320 --> 00:22:37.288
No. It's going to be us
putting Irving on trial.

441
00:22:37.360 --> 00:22:38.361
Laura's right.
Thank you.

442
00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:40.920
Laura's very sound on this.
And if we focus on his lies,

443
00:22:41.000 --> 00:22:42.968
and, equally important,
his motives for lying,

444
00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:46.931
there's absolutely no reason we should have
to produce eyewitnesses to these horrors.

445
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:50.576
Wait a minute.
What do you mean,

446
00:22:50.600 --> 00:22:53.046
that the survivors won't appear?

447
00:22:53.120 --> 00:22:55.043
No, no, no.
No, we don't want them to.

448
00:22:55.120 --> 00:22:56.256
You don't want their testimony?

449
00:22:56.280 --> 00:22:57.496
No.
Under no circumstances.

450
00:22:57.520 --> 00:22:59.488
Why not? Why the hell not?

451
00:22:59.560 --> 00:23:01.403
Because even to
let survivors appear

452
00:23:01.480 --> 00:23:04.131
would be to legitimize
his right to question them.

453
00:23:09.040 --> 00:23:10.610
Can I say something

454
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:13.286
before you go any further
with this strategy?

455
00:23:13.560 --> 00:23:14.800
Yeah, please do.

456
00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:18.086
You once said to me that this
trial might have implications

457
00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:19.810
for the whole
of the Jewish people.

458
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.926
Now you're saying you won't
allow the Jews to speak?

459
00:23:23.000 --> 00:23:24.096
Right, I'll explain the thinking

460
00:23:24.120 --> 00:23:25.216
just so you
understand the thinking.

461
00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:27.891
Yes, please, I would love
to understand the thinking.

462
00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:29.280
We believe that
Irving is planning

463
00:23:29.320 --> 00:23:31.721
on being what we call
a litigant in person.

464
00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:34.364
He plans to conduct
his own case.

465
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:35.576
What do you mean?
He's not hiring lawyers?

466
00:23:35.600 --> 00:23:39.047
No. No, it'll be just him.
Imagine that.

467
00:23:39.120 --> 00:23:41.009
David Irving, international
Holocaust denier,

468
00:23:41.080 --> 00:23:43.401
finally getting his hands
on a survivor. Imagine it.

469
00:23:44.040 --> 00:23:46.611
The hurt. The damage.
The insult.

470
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:48.336
It's unthinkable.
He's not gonna have that.

471
00:23:48.360 --> 00:23:50.056
I won't allow it.
I won't allow that to happen.

472
00:23:50.080 --> 00:23:52.242
What are you gonna allow?

473
00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:56.128
He keeps a diary.
He has done for years.

474
00:23:56.200 --> 00:23:57.376
He told us
he had nothing to hide,

475
00:23:57.400 --> 00:23:59.767
but we still had to subpoena
him to get hold of it.

476
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.926
What, you've spoken
to him in person?

477
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:04.968
Yes, yes, we have.

478
00:24:05.040 --> 00:24:08.123
Deborah, the first rule of a good
defense is a strong offense.

479
00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:09.640
First rule?
First rule of litigation,

480
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:11.284
whether you're prosecuting
or defending,

481
00:24:11.360 --> 00:24:13.249
always run your case
<i>as</i> if you're prosecuting.

482
00:24:13.320 --> 00:24:15.209
It's a good rule.
So that's why Laura

483
00:24:15.320 --> 00:24:17.971
is leading this group of researchers here.
They joined last week.

484
00:24:18.040 --> 00:24:19.976
And they're gonna be
combing through all the diaries,

485
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:22.536
uh, locking in particular for any
contact with right-wing groups.

486
00:24:22.560 --> 00:24:25.609
Neo-Nazis, skinheads,
anti-Semites, SS revival groups,

487
00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:27.205
all kinds of assorted riffraff.

488
00:24:27.280 --> 00:24:29.040
And, just as important,
Professor Evans here,

489
00:24:29.080 --> 00:24:31.526
with his, um, his two
able graduate students,

490
00:24:31.600 --> 00:24:34.888
Nik Wachsman and Thomas, uh...

491
00:24:35.480 --> 00:24:38.006
Thomas Skelton-Robinson.

492
00:24:38.120 --> 00:24:39.856
My team will be
doing the historiography.

493
00:24:39.880 --> 00:24:42.690
Examining every published word
Irving ever wrote.

494
00:24:42.760 --> 00:24:44.842
Checking sources,
comparing editions.

495
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:47.486
Generally testing the
reliability of his history.

496
00:24:47.560 --> 00:24:49.324
You can't imagine
what fun we're having.

497
00:24:49.400 --> 00:24:51.336
We're gonna end up with
a charge sheet of inaccuracies

498
00:24:51.360 --> 00:24:53.727
as long as your arm.
One mistake after another.

499
00:24:53.800 --> 00:24:56.531
We think it'll take
about a year. Full-time.

500
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:02.401
Well, I'm glad that you guys
have got it all sewn up.

501
00:25:02.520 --> 00:25:04.761
We aim to.

502
00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:07.603
Okay, well, thanks
very much, everyone.

503
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:14.085
As you know, uh,

504
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:16.089
we had been planning to
do everything for free.

505
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:18.806
But given the mounting
scale of the thing,

506
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:21.770
I think we may need to revisit
the question of charges.

507
00:25:22.600 --> 00:25:24.887
Of course, if we lose,

508
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:26.684
the firm will be happy
to carry the cost.

509
00:25:26.760 --> 00:25:29.001
But we will need some support.

510
00:25:30.840 --> 00:25:33.047
So you are allowing me
to do something?

511
00:25:33.120 --> 00:25:35.327
Um, I get to go fundraise?

512
00:25:35.560 --> 00:25:36.721
Uh...

513
00:25:36.800 --> 00:25:38.962
Yes, yes, if, um...

514
00:25:39.800 --> 00:25:41.131
Whatever you can do.

515
00:25:46.280 --> 00:25:50.649
<i>I think people here do
have concerns about the trial.</i>

516
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.082
The community's very keen
to support you.

517
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:56.206
Mmm-hmm.
I'm glad to hear it.

518
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.963
But we're also interested
to know what you're thinking.

519
00:26:00.040 --> 00:26:03.647
Mr. Julius is
a very brilliant young man.

520
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:04.767
He is.

521
00:26:05.120 --> 00:26:08.010
Can we speak frankly?
Please, please.

522
00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:13.482
There's... There's some fear you
may have fallen under his spell.

523
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:15.850
You won't be the first woman

524
00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:17.684
to be attracted
to his intellect.

525
00:26:18.120 --> 00:26:20.327
Diana.

526
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.690
So far, I've raised, um,
most of my funds back home.

527
00:26:29.160 --> 00:26:31.288
- Was that easy?
- It wasn't difficult.

528
00:26:32.120 --> 00:26:34.930
Not as difficult as in London,
is that what you're saying?

529
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:37.287
There's a principle
and I've stuck to it.

530
00:26:37.360 --> 00:26:39.567
No single source of finance.

531
00:26:40.080 --> 00:26:42.845
There was one man, he offered
to pay for the whole thing.

532
00:26:43.400 --> 00:26:45.926
But when the history of this
moment comes to be written,

533
00:26:46.040 --> 00:26:49.931
I think it's important
many people gave, not one.

534
00:26:51.040 --> 00:26:52.371
You talk about history.

535
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:54.450
Look at it from
our point of view.

536
00:26:54.520 --> 00:26:56.648
We live with David Irving.
He's British.

537
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:58.041
And he's a has-been.

538
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:00.121
What's a trial gonna do?

539
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:01.884
It's gonna give him
a new lease of life.

540
00:27:02.520 --> 00:27:03.646
Well, I can't help that

541
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:05.370
because I didn't bring
the prosecution.

542
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:06.441
He did.
No,

543
00:27:06.560 --> 00:27:08.296
but you could prevent the
whole thing from happening.

544
00:27:08.320 --> 00:27:09.760
HOW would I do that?
Settle.

545
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:13.846
I mean it.

546
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:17.605
Sign some piece of paper.
Is that so terrible?

547
00:27:18.600 --> 00:27:20.409
He's never gonna
give you Auschwitz, okay,

548
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:23.643
but, then, he's...
He's David Irving.

549
00:27:23.720 --> 00:27:24.767
We've lived with worse.

550
00:27:24.840 --> 00:27:26.604
And what would you
want me to settle for?

551
00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:29.008
Four million dead? Three? One?

552
00:27:29.080 --> 00:27:30.889
What number would you
be comfortable with?

553
00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:35.043
Here in England, you may
like appeasement, but I don't.

554
00:27:35.120 --> 00:27:37.376
I don't think you should be
using a word like appeasement.

555
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:38.811
No? Then what word
should I use?

556
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:42.248
All we're saying,
beware of Anthony Julius.

557
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.406
He does these things
for his own glory.

558
00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:47.650
Other women have been
in his pocket

559
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:49.484
and found it an uncomfortable
place to be.

560
00:27:49.560 --> 00:27:51.927
Oh, well, if it's
pockets we're talking about,

561
00:27:52.000 --> 00:27:55.049
maybe you can explain why the British
find theirs so hard to open.

562
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:04.960
<i>The area
forecast for the next 24 hours.</i>

563
00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:08.285
<i>Viking,
North and South Utsire, 40.</i>

564
00:28:08.680 --> 00:28:10.921
<i>Southwesterly,
veering northwesterly,</i>

565
00:28:11.040 --> 00:28:14.681
<i>6 to gale 8,
perhaps severe gale 9 later.</i>

566
00:28:14.760 --> 00:28:17.650
<i>Rain, wintry showers,
moderate or full...</i>

567
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:40.850
<i>I had
a hellish night last night.</i>

568
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:43.048
I couldn't sleep.
I was so angry.

569
00:28:43.120 --> 00:28:44.281
Really? Why?

570
00:28:44.360 --> 00:28:46.522
I had dinner last
night with some

571
00:28:46.600 --> 00:28:48.443
leaders of the Jewish community.

572
00:28:48.520 --> 00:28:50.648
Oh, the community, huh?

573
00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.920
And did the community tell you it would
suit them better if you dropped the case?

574
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:55.644
I was defending you.

575
00:28:55.720 --> 00:28:57.131
I'm sure you did
a very good job.

576
00:28:57.200 --> 00:28:58.884
Maybe you should
take it up professionally.

577
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:02.091
They think you took
this case for your own glory.

578
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.891
Glory? Gosh. I hadn't
thought about glory.

579
00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:07.486
Glory? Fascinating. So what
did they give you to eat?

580
00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:12.803
- I don't understand this thing, I really don't.
- Oh, here we are.

581
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:15.885
Richard Rampton,
Deborah Lipstadt.

582
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:17.200
Ah!

583
00:29:17.560 --> 00:29:19.244
"'Tis the author
of our misfortune."

584
00:29:19.360 --> 00:29:20.930
Please, please, please, come in.

585
00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:22.525
Come in and warm yourself.

586
00:29:22.600 --> 00:29:23.931
Hi.
Hello.

587
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:25.570
Richard will be
your leading counsel.

588
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:26.976
I've explained to
Deborah the difference

589
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:28.365
between barrister and solicitor.

590
00:29:28.840 --> 00:29:31.411
Our legal system seems forbidding
but it works, I think.

591
00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:34.006
If your legal system worked,
I wouldn't be in this mess.

592
00:29:34.080 --> 00:29:35.650
I don't mind Dickensian,

593
00:29:35.680 --> 00:29:38.684
it's Kafkaesque I'm worried about.

594
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:42.403
And this is our junior
counsel, Heather Rogers.

595
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:43.686
How are you?
Hi, Heather.

596
00:29:43.800 --> 00:29:45.450
Look, I've....
I've just opened up

597
00:29:45.520 --> 00:29:47.284
this rather
decent bottle of red.

598
00:29:47.360 --> 00:29:48.566
Hope you don't mind plastic?

599
00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:50.409
No, Richard,
I'm not gonna drink.

600
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:52.448
I haven't eaten.
And Deborah hasn't slept.

601
00:29:52.560 --> 00:29:54.130
No, I'll taste the wine.
Why not?

602
00:29:54.200 --> 00:29:55.929
Everything else is
being decided for me.

603
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:01.409
Yes, so Heather and I have been
introducing ourselves to the subject.

604
00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:05.485
Hmm. I can see that.
A little light reading.

605
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:07.245
Oh, is this you?

606
00:30:08.320 --> 00:30:09.560
You catch fish?

607
00:30:10.520 --> 00:30:11.885
Yes, I do.

608
00:30:13.800 --> 00:30:15.404
And how's your German?

609
00:30:15.800 --> 00:30:17.245
Ah, you see?
Just like a barrister.

610
00:30:17.320 --> 00:30:18.651
Go straight to my weak point.

611
00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:21.486
Um, well, I know the libretto
to The <i>Magic</i> Flute.

612
00:30:21.560 --> 00:30:24.291
That's, uh... That's all
the German I have.

613
00:30:24.360 --> 00:30:27.170
It's probably not very useful
in our forthcoming encounter.

614
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:28.240
Anyway, cheers.

615
00:30:28.280 --> 00:30:29.281
Cheers.

616
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:31.926
Cheers, Heather.

617
00:30:32.520 --> 00:30:35.683
Yes, I was going to get on
with my <i>Life</i> of Mozart,

618
00:30:36.080 --> 00:30:39.004
- but I shall have to postpone.
- Again.

619
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:41.686
Richard is the most skillful
advocate in the country.

620
00:30:41.760 --> 00:30:43.046
I don't mind saying it.

621
00:30:43.120 --> 00:30:46.090
Yes, well,
in this case I wish I...

622
00:30:46.520 --> 00:30:48.807
I wish I thought
skill were enough.

623
00:30:49.760 --> 00:30:50.960
What else do you need?

624
00:30:51.760 --> 00:30:53.444
A rarer quality.

625
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:55.286
Such as?

626
00:30:57.760 --> 00:30:59.091
Appetite.

627
00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:04.447
Plainly, I shall have
to go to Auschwitz

628
00:31:04.520 --> 00:31:07.524
and I would be very grateful
if you would accompany me.

629
00:31:07.600 --> 00:31:09.090
Why do you need
to go to Auschwitz?

630
00:31:10.800 --> 00:31:12.325
Legal reasons.

631
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:27.091
<i>Is he coming?</i>

632
00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:31.367
He wants us here, and then
he doesn't show up.

633
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:34.205
He's late, that's all.
He's often late.

634
00:32:34.280 --> 00:32:35.645
Is he late for court?

635
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:13.160
Morning, everyone.

636
00:33:13.360 --> 00:33:15.761
You must be Professor Van Pelt?
Lam.

637
00:33:15.840 --> 00:33:17.968
Good. So, uh, let's
get down to business.

638
00:33:18.280 --> 00:33:19.645
Heather. Deborah.

639
00:33:20.600 --> 00:33:22.045
I suggest we start
by taking a walk

640
00:33:22.120 --> 00:33:23.724
around the perimeter fence.

641
00:33:23.800 --> 00:33:24.801
Yeah, I just did that.

642
00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.531
Good. Then let's
look at the plans. Omer?

643
00:33:30.360 --> 00:33:33.125
I want you to understand
the scale of the operation.

644
00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:34.936
What we are looking at here
is one of the largest

645
00:33:34.960 --> 00:33:36.896
and most efficient killing
machines in human history.

646
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.256
Yeah. Yes, we know what it is.
It's how we prove what it is,

647
00:33:39.280 --> 00:33:40.416
that's what we're interested in.

648
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.728
We're not here on a pilgrimage,
we're preparing a case.

649
00:33:43.800 --> 00:33:45.325
Okay.

650
00:33:47.600 --> 00:33:50.524
These are the remains
of Crematorium ll.

651
00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:55.171
The buildings were deliberately
demolished by the Germans

652
00:33:55.240 --> 00:33:57.208
in the autumn of 1944

653
00:33:57.280 --> 00:33:59.487
to destroy the evidence
of what they did here.

654
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:05.365
They dynamited them again

655
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:07.608
one week before
the end of the war.

656
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:13.802
These steps led down
into the undressing room.

657
00:34:20.240 --> 00:34:21.526
The Olére drawings, please.

658
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.802
David Olére was
a French artist. A survivor.

659
00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:29.326
He was able to draw
a lot of what he saw here.

660
00:34:29.800 --> 00:34:32.883
He made a drawing
of this arrangement here.

661
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.322
These are the steps
in the drawing.

662
00:34:46.160 --> 00:34:47.764
Then they were led through here,

663
00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:50.650
past a sign that said,
"To the Baths"

664
00:34:51.680 --> 00:34:54.160
and into the gas chamber...

665
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:56.560
Here.

666
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:00.048
Please watch your step.
Tread carefully.

667
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:02.325
This is a shrine.

668
00:35:12.120 --> 00:35:13.451
What we are standing on here

669
00:35:13.520 --> 00:35:16.444
is all that remains
of the gas chamber itself.

670
00:35:16.520 --> 00:35:18.124
This was the roof.

671
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:31.524
The chamber was
right under here.

672
00:35:31.600 --> 00:35:32.886
Under our feet.

673
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:44.046
The doors were locked and
cyanide crystals, Zyklon-B,

674
00:35:44.160 --> 00:35:46.811
were poured in on them
through holes in the roof.

675
00:35:47.400 --> 00:35:49.164
One, two, three, four.

676
00:36:06.760 --> 00:36:08.808
OW! Shit.

677
00:36:17.560 --> 00:36:18.766
It... It's okay.

678
00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:51.366
Now here are
the delousing chambers.

679
00:36:51.440 --> 00:36:54.250
Typhus was a terrible
problem in the camp

680
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.085
and the lice that carried it
had to be destroyed.

681
00:36:57.160 --> 00:36:58.400
Right, now we get to it.

682
00:36:58.480 --> 00:37:00.687
So we need to
talk about Leuchter.

683
00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:02.683
Yes, I'm coming to Leuchter.
Yeah.

684
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:09.890
This building was used to
delouse the prisoners' clothing.

685
00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.247
They used Zyklon-B
for that, too.

686
00:37:12.320 --> 00:37:14.049
To kill the lice.

687
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:16.402
We know that?
Yes.

688
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:18.610
For sure?
You have proof?

689
00:37:18.680 --> 00:37:20.409
We can't take
anything for granted.

690
00:37:20.480 --> 00:37:21.527
I need to see the proof.

691
00:37:21.600 --> 00:37:23.170
Yes, I can give you proof.

692
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:27.207
However, in February 1988,

693
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:31.330
a Holocaust denier called Ernst
Zundel sent Fred Leuchter,

694
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:35.644
an engineer and self-styled
execution expert from America,

695
00:37:35.720 --> 00:37:37.449
to test in different
parts of the camp

696
00:37:37.520 --> 00:37:40.091
for evidence of poison gas
in the brickwork.

697
00:37:40.160 --> 00:37:42.925
Traces of hydrogen cyanide, HCN.

698
00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.129
The blue stains here

699
00:37:47.600 --> 00:37:48.806
and here.

700
00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:50.530
He came with a chisel?

701
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:52.086
<i>That's fight.</i>

702
00:37:52.160 --> 00:37:54.208
And he hacked away...
Correct.

703
00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:56.009
Illegally,
without any permission

704
00:37:56.080 --> 00:37:57.570
from the authorities,

705
00:37:57.960 --> 00:38:01.521
and then he smuggled the pieces
out of Poland in his suitcase,

706
00:38:01.600 --> 00:38:03.125
wrapped in his dirty underwear.

707
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.931
Be that as it may.
We can criticize his methods,

708
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.128
but it's his conclusions
we have to discredit.

709
00:38:08.640 --> 00:38:10.688
He found higher levels of HCN

710
00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:12.364
here in the delousing chambers

711
00:38:12.440 --> 00:38:14.647
than he did in
the gas chambers themselves.

712
00:38:14.720 --> 00:38:16.245
From this he concluded that

713
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:18.448
no human beings
were killed at Auschwitz.

714
00:38:18.520 --> 00:38:21.729
Only...
Only lice were killed.

715
00:38:23.080 --> 00:38:25.048
Why are we talking
about Leuchter?

716
00:38:25.240 --> 00:38:27.641
I mean, he's really not worth
the paper he's written on.

717
00:38:27.720 --> 00:38:29.802
Well, so you say.
Now say why.

718
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:31.211
I'll tell you why.

719
00:38:31.720 --> 00:38:34.040
Because of course there was a
higher concentration in here.

720
00:38:34.080 --> 00:38:36.526
It takes 20 times more cyanide

721
00:38:36.600 --> 00:38:39.046
to kill lice than it
does human beings.

722
00:38:39.120 --> 00:38:41.930
Twenty times! Just
Leuchter didn't know that.

723
00:38:42.600 --> 00:38:44.489
Oh, this whole thing
is infuriating.

724
00:38:44.560 --> 00:38:46.403
I know.
It beggars belief.

725
00:38:47.160 --> 00:38:50.403
Why has there not been a proper
scientific study of this whole site?

726
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:52.164
By reputable scientists?

727
00:38:52.240 --> 00:38:54.004
Fifty years since the fact?

728
00:38:54.920 --> 00:38:57.002
I mean, it's ridiculous.

729
00:38:57.080 --> 00:38:59.287
Where's the proof?
Where's the evidence?

730
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:00.486
I need to know that.

731
00:39:00.560 --> 00:39:02.722
You know what? This is a place
where you show respect.

732
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:04.848
Whoever you are,
you show respect.

733
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:06.445
I have to ask
some more questions.

734
00:39:06.520 --> 00:39:07.965
Would you be happier outside?

735
00:39:10.240 --> 00:39:11.240
What proof is there

736
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:13.009
that Leuchter's conclusions
are wrong?

737
00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:19.205
I thought we weren't
gonna try the Holocaust.

738
00:39:20.720 --> 00:39:23.849
We're not. I thought we
weren't gonna debate,

739
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:25.206
"Did the Holocaust happen?"

740
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:26.520
That's what we agreed, Heather.

741
00:39:26.600 --> 00:39:28.090
That's what we agreed.

742
00:39:30.280 --> 00:39:31.930
He's asking questions,
that's all.

743
00:39:32.000 --> 00:39:33.809
He has to ask questions.

744
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.085
This isn't about memorializing,

745
00:39:37.160 --> 00:39:38.685
it's about forensics.

746
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:09.041
God full of mercy
who dwells in the heights,

747
00:40:10.240 --> 00:40:14.689
provide a sure rest upon
the Divine Presence's wings,

748
00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:17.926
in the realm of the holy,
pure and glorious...

749
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:19.525
Pure and glorious,

750
00:40:19.600 --> 00:40:23.127
whose shining resembles the sky.

751
00:41:57.440 --> 00:41:59.044
I, um, bought you a drink.

752
00:41:59.840 --> 00:42:01.490
I thought you might need it.

753
00:42:01.560 --> 00:42:04.291
Thanks. I think I do.

754
00:42:07.240 --> 00:42:08.969
You get what you wanted
from the visit?

755
00:42:11.640 --> 00:42:13.290
Deborah, you mustn't
characterize me

756
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:14.805
as being without feelings.

757
00:42:15.520 --> 00:42:18.000
I have feelings.
What did you feel today?

758
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:21.126
Oh.

759
00:42:24.760 --> 00:42:26.125
Shame.

760
00:42:27.600 --> 00:42:31.605
I have this terrible fear
that if I'd have been ordered

761
00:42:31.680 --> 00:42:34.126
to do some of the things
we saw today that...

762
00:42:36.240 --> 00:42:37.366
That I would have agreed.

763
00:42:37.800 --> 00:42:39.165
Out of weakness.

764
00:42:39.520 --> 00:42:41.409
Well, that is honest
of you to say so.

765
00:42:41.480 --> 00:42:44.290
Well, that's how it is.
The world is full of cowards

766
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:47.045
and I've always had
this nervous feeling that...

767
00:42:48.200 --> 00:42:49.645
That I was one of them.

768
00:42:50.680 --> 00:42:52.250
There's this line from Goethe,

769
00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:57.530
<i>"Der Fiege droht nur,
wo er sicher ist."</i>

770
00:42:57.600 --> 00:43:00.888
It means,
"The coward only threatens

771
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:02.485
"when he feels secure."

772
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:05.840
I thought you didn't speak German.
Hmm.

773
00:43:06.080 --> 00:43:08.287
You learned German
in the last year?

774
00:43:08.360 --> 00:43:10.761
Well, I had to master
all these documents.

775
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:12.842
Irving had a 40-year
start on me,

776
00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:14.001
so I had to catch up.

777
00:43:14.080 --> 00:43:15.161
Did you?

778
00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:17.809
No.

779
00:43:21.520 --> 00:43:24.364
You know, you haven't
taken my statement yet.

780
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:28.489
No. No, I...
Why is that?

781
00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:32.280
No. Why? Anthony
didn't talk to you?

782
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:39.522
Well, um, we made
a couple of decisions.

783
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:44.403
Uh, the first was that we don't
want to put this case to a jury.

784
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:46.881
We think it'll be safer
to put it to a judge.

785
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:49.411
A single judge?
Yeah.

786
00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:51.727
What, the whole thing
decided by one man?

787
00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:53.245
Is that a good idea?

788
00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:55.209
Well, we were worried
about the kind of antics

789
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:57.687
that Irving might get up
to with an audience of 12.

790
00:43:57.760 --> 00:43:59.524
I'm surprised it's our choice.

791
00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:02.080
Well, it isn't.
He has to agree.

792
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:03.640
Why would he do that?

793
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:06.450
We have a notion.

794
00:44:07.240 --> 00:44:08.366
Mmm.

795
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:11.368
And the other one?
I'm sorry?

796
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:13.090
Well, you said
a couple of decisions.

797
00:44:14.720 --> 00:44:16.404
Yes, well, um...

798
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:20.526
We decided,
Anthony and I, that, um,

799
00:44:22.560 --> 00:44:25.723
it would be better
if you didn't testify.

800
00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:31.090
Excuse me?
Well, that's it. We...

801
00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:33.842
We don't believe
you should testify.

802
00:44:35.080 --> 00:44:36.411
Why?

803
00:44:37.600 --> 00:44:40.331
Because you don't trust me?
No. No, not at all.

804
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:42.084
You think I'm gonna
get emotional?

805
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:45.284
Well, I... After today...

806
00:44:45.520 --> 00:44:47.727
Richard, we were at Auschwitz.

807
00:44:48.440 --> 00:44:50.727
Let me remind you that I teach,

808
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:52.370
I lecture,
I talk to the press...

809
00:44:52.440 --> 00:44:54.169
I know.
I order ideas.

810
00:44:54.240 --> 00:44:55.890
It's what I do.
It's what I'm good at.

811
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:57.530
You... You don't need
to protect me.

812
00:44:57.600 --> 00:44:59.125
No, we're not protecting you.

813
00:44:59.200 --> 00:45:00.804
We're protecting our case.

814
00:45:01.520 --> 00:45:05.844
Our strategy is to keep the focus
on Irving and Irving alone.

815
00:45:06.120 --> 00:45:09.010
It's not a test of your
credibility, it's a test of his.

816
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:10.976
You don't think I'm good enough.

817
00:45:11.000 --> 00:45:13.048
No, no, no.
I didn't say that at all.

818
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:17.126
Everything you have to say,
you've said in your book.

819
00:45:17.960 --> 00:45:20.884
Our task is to starve Irving,

820
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:23.645
and putting you in a witness
box would feed him.

821
00:45:24.640 --> 00:45:26.642
This case is happening to you,

822
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:28.325
but it's not about you.

823
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:31.085
This man hates me.
He's coming for me.

824
00:45:31.160 --> 00:45:32.924
And when someone
comes after you,

825
00:45:33.040 --> 00:45:34.485
you take 'em on.

826
00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:40.964
You know what people will say?

827
00:45:42.160 --> 00:45:44.049
Yes, I think I do.
They'll say I'm a coward.

828
00:45:44.120 --> 00:45:45.576
That I was too afraid
to go on the stand

829
00:45:45.600 --> 00:45:46.976
because I thought I would lose.
Yeah.

830
00:45:47.000 --> 00:45:49.321
That's what they'll say. And
you want me to live with that?

831
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:55.130
It's the price you pay
for winning.

832
00:46:01.440 --> 00:46:03.010
<i>Uh, just one question, sir.</i>

833
00:46:03.080 --> 00:46:04.081
<i>What is it?</i>

834
00:46:04.360 --> 00:46:05.407
Uh, on our side,

835
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:07.562
we're beginning to feel
that for the layman

836
00:46:07.640 --> 00:46:09.722
this particular subject
may represent

837
00:46:09.800 --> 00:46:11.211
an impossible challenge.

838
00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:15.845
I see. You're asking to
dispense with a jury? We are.

839
00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:19.048
Have you asked
Mr. Irving his views?

840
00:46:19.120 --> 00:46:21.168
Mr. Irving?
Well, um...

841
00:46:21.240 --> 00:46:22.605
Perhaps before
Mr. Irving speaks?

842
00:46:22.680 --> 00:46:23.886
Yes, go ahead.

843
00:46:24.520 --> 00:46:27.888
We all know Mr. Irving
has devoted his life

844
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:29.883
to the study of the Third Reich.

845
00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:32.647
I admit myself to having
sometimes struggled

846
00:46:32.720 --> 00:46:34.006
with the demands
of the material.

847
00:46:34.080 --> 00:46:36.003
I wonder if Mr. Irving
really believes it's fair

848
00:46:36.080 --> 00:46:39.163
to ask the regular Joe or Joan
who walks in from the street

849
00:46:39.240 --> 00:46:40.571
to grasp in a mere few weeks

850
00:46:40.640 --> 00:46:43.405
what he himself has taken
a lifetime to master.

851
00:46:48.400 --> 00:46:49.606
I agree.

852
00:46:50.680 --> 00:46:53.251
The issues before the court
are sufficiently complex

853
00:46:54.080 --> 00:46:56.162
to require the attention
of a learned judge,

854
00:46:56.240 --> 00:46:58.811
and too complex
to confront a jury with.

855
00:47:00.160 --> 00:47:01.650
Are you sure, Mr. Irving?

856
00:47:03.920 --> 00:47:05.046
Quite sure.

857
00:47:06.080 --> 00:47:08.082
Trial by judge
alone it is, then.

858
00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:10.005
Thank you very much, sir.

859
00:47:33.600 --> 00:47:35.096
This morning
we'll see the beginning

860
00:47:35.120 --> 00:47:36.770
of an extraordinary case
in which...

861
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:39.336
question the evidence
for the mass killing of Jewish people

862
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:40.776
at Auschwitz during
the Second World War.

863
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:42.768
Including the movie
director, Steven Spielberg,

864
00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.042
are paying
for Miss Lipstadt's defense.

865
00:47:45.120 --> 00:47:47.043
Mr. Irving is rumored to have

866
00:47:47.120 --> 00:47:49.600
a list of around
4,000 contributors...

867
00:47:49.720 --> 00:47:51.882
Miss Lipstadt's
book, in which she refers

868
00:47:51.960 --> 00:47:54.770
to Mr. Irving as
a Holocaust denier.

869
00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:56.890
Morning, Deborah. Morning.

870
00:47:56.960 --> 00:47:58.246
I didn't want you
to go in alone.

871
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:00.084
Sweet of you.
It's not sweet at all.

872
00:48:00.160 --> 00:48:01.616
I just wanted to make sure
you didn't speak.

873
00:48:01.640 --> 00:48:04.086
It's a short statement.
No, no, no. This way.

874
00:48:04.160 --> 00:48:05.730
- Come on.
- Professor!

875
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:08.482
Julie McCarthy, NPR.
A quick word.

876
00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:10.324
We need to hear your voice.

877
00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:13.730
It's Julie McCarthy, NPR.
We need to hear your voice.

878
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:15.962
Just a quick word.
Lying Jewish bitch!

879
00:48:16.080 --> 00:48:18.162
You think it all finished
with Hitler? It didn't.

880
00:48:18.240 --> 00:48:20.811
We know which hotel you're in.
We know your room.

881
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:23.406
You think you're safe.
Well, you're not.

882
00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:40.128
Morning. Morning,
everyone. Morning, everyone.

883
00:48:40.200 --> 00:48:42.601
Good morning, everyone.
I'm looking forward to this.

884
00:48:42.680 --> 00:48:44.011
May I say a few words?

885
00:48:44.720 --> 00:48:45.801
Well, obviously...

886
00:48:52.160 --> 00:48:54.216
Do you see that? He's gonna be
all over the front pages.

887
00:48:54.240 --> 00:48:57.323
Deborah, there's only one person
that matters and that's the judge.

888
00:48:57.400 --> 00:48:59.496
If you don't speak in court
and you do speak to the press,

889
00:48:59.520 --> 00:49:01.602
the judge is gonna be
furious and with just cause.

890
00:49:01.680 --> 00:49:03.842
And we both know what
would solve that problem.

891
00:49:05.040 --> 00:49:07.930
Another thing. You jog
the same way every day.

892
00:49:08.560 --> 00:49:09.641
Don't.

893
00:49:10.520 --> 00:49:12.568
What are you saying?
I'm not saying anything.

894
00:49:12.640 --> 00:49:14.802
I'm just saying,
vary your route. Come on.

895
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:16.006
Vary my route?

896
00:49:16.080 --> 00:49:17.411
Stay with her.

897
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:19.736
What, you think
you can get away with it?

898
00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:21.569
<i>Let's have some order!</i>

899
00:49:21.640 --> 00:49:23.608
Please. Press in
the public gallery.

900
00:49:23.680 --> 00:49:25.256
Front two rows.
Take the door on the left.

901
00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:26.805
Hello, Nik.
Janet

902
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:29.451
General public upstairs. General
public upstairs. Thank you.

903
00:49:29.520 --> 00:49:31.090
Let the defendant
through, please.

904
00:49:31.160 --> 00:49:33.288
This way, Miss Lipstadt.
Thank you, Clive.

905
00:49:34.640 --> 00:49:37.291
They were lively.
Yes.

906
00:49:38.440 --> 00:49:40.602
- How are you? All right?
- Fine, fine.

907
00:49:41.280 --> 00:49:42.441
Just through here.

908
00:49:46.760 --> 00:49:48.250
This is me?
This is you.

909
00:49:49.080 --> 00:49:50.923
Good morning. Good morning.

910
00:49:55.560 --> 00:49:57.216
- Morning, Mr. Irving.
- Good morning.

911
00:49:57.240 --> 00:49:58.536
- Good morning.
- Morning.

912
00:49:58.560 --> 00:49:59.856
Good morning.
Good morning.

913
00:49:59.880 --> 00:50:01.041
Morning.

914
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:07.683
Good morning. I'll just
take that for you.

915
00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:08.841
Thank you.
There we are.

916
00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:12.849
As advertised.
David and Goliath.

917
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:22.646
<i>They're ready, my Lord.</i>

918
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:55.330
Silence!

919
00:50:56.240 --> 00:50:57.651
Court rise!

920
00:51:00.720 --> 00:51:01.881
BOW.

921
00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:03.803
- Bow.
- I'm American.

922
00:51:04.200 --> 00:51:05.770
Everything else but no bowing.

923
00:51:17.120 --> 00:51:18.201
My Lord...

924
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:23.090
I intend to show that far from
being a Holocaust denier,

925
00:51:23.160 --> 00:51:24.844
I have repeatedly
drawn attention

926
00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:27.810
to major aspects
of the Holocaust.

927
00:51:29.120 --> 00:51:31.600
These defendants
have done very real damage

928
00:51:31.680 --> 00:51:33.762
to my professional existence.

929
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:36.605
By virtue of the activities
of Miss Lipstadt

930
00:51:36.680 --> 00:51:39.445
and those who funded her
and guided her hand,

931
00:51:39.520 --> 00:51:41.443
since 1996

932
00:51:41.520 --> 00:51:45.570
I have seen one fearful publisher
after another falling away from me

933
00:51:45.640 --> 00:51:48.120
and turning their backs
on me as I approach.

934
00:51:49.680 --> 00:51:50.841
My Lord,

935
00:51:51.680 --> 00:51:54.286
if we were to seek a title
for this libel action,

936
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:58.001
I would venture to suggest
<i>Pictures</i> at an Execution.

937
00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:00.211
My execution.

938
00:52:03.120 --> 00:52:06.727
The word "denier"
is particularly evil.

939
00:52:07.040 --> 00:52:08.610
For the chosen victim

940
00:52:09.360 --> 00:52:12.887
it is like being called
a wife beater or a pedophile.

941
00:52:14.880 --> 00:52:17.360
It is enough for the label
to be attached

942
00:52:17.440 --> 00:52:20.410
for the attachee to
be designated a pariah,

943
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:22.802
an outcast from normal society.

944
00:52:24.880 --> 00:52:28.248
It is a verbal Yellow Star.

945
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:33.525
<i>So, what did you think of him?</i>

946
00:52:33.600 --> 00:52:36.080
I thought he was oddly impressive.
Did you?

947
00:52:36.160 --> 00:52:37.366
Well, did you enjoy it?

948
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:39.044
Look, there he is.
Look, still at it.

949
00:52:39.200 --> 00:52:42.204
It was confusing. It was like
he already knew all of our questions.

950
00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:44.600
Well, yes, of course he does.
We sent them to him.

951
00:52:45.440 --> 00:52:48.410
What? You sent him our
questions in advance? What...

952
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:51.323
Why would you give away
our strategy?

953
00:52:51.400 --> 00:52:53.368
Deborah, there is no strategy.

954
00:52:54.280 --> 00:52:56.248
We're gonna box him in
with the truth.

955
00:52:57.480 --> 00:52:58.845
<i>My Lord,</i>

956
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:02.606
Mr. Irving calls himself
a historian.

957
00:53:03.520 --> 00:53:06.683
The truth is, however, that
he is not a historian at all.

958
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:09.442
He is a falsifier of history.

959
00:53:11.120 --> 00:53:14.283
To put it bluntly, he is a liar.

960
00:53:16.200 --> 00:53:18.248
Now, between the publication

961
00:53:18.320 --> 00:53:21.802
of the first edition
of Hitler's War in 1977,

962
00:53:22.080 --> 00:53:24.845
and the second edition in 1991,

963
00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:27.241
Mr. Irving's view
of the Holocaust

964
00:53:27.320 --> 00:53:29.800
underwent a sea change.

965
00:53:30.600 --> 00:53:33.126
In the 1977 version,

966
00:53:33.200 --> 00:53:37.808
he accepted it <i>as</i> historical
truth in all its essentials.

967
00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:41.089
But in the 1991 edition,

968
00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:45.600
all traces of the Holocaust
had disappeared.

969
00:53:47.520 --> 00:53:52.765
So, what are the reasons for
this astounding volte-face?

970
00:53:53.160 --> 00:53:55.766
Well, the principle reason
can be expressed

971
00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:59.083
in one word, Leuchter.

972
00:53:59.520 --> 00:54:00.521
Hmm.

973
00:54:00.600 --> 00:54:05.049
Now, according to Mr. Irving,
the Leuchter report is,

974
00:54:05.120 --> 00:54:06.929
"The biggest caliber shell

975
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:10.129
"that has yet hit
the battleship Auschwitz."

976
00:54:10.440 --> 00:54:12.442
Unfortunately for Mr. Irving,

977
00:54:12.560 --> 00:54:16.531
the Leuchter report is bunk
and he knows it.

978
00:54:17.080 --> 00:54:18.923
So why did Mr. Irving

979
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:22.607
embrace the Leuchter report
with such enthusiasm?

980
00:54:22.680 --> 00:54:24.808
Why did he choose
to publish it himself

981
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:26.609
and even to write
an introduction?

982
00:54:27.840 --> 00:54:31.003
Well, the answer must be

983
00:54:31.120 --> 00:54:33.122
that he wanted it to be true.

984
00:54:34.040 --> 00:54:37.601
After all, if the Holocaust
hadn't happened,

985
00:54:37.680 --> 00:54:41.401
Hitler couldn't have
ordered it or known about it.

986
00:54:41.480 --> 00:54:42.970
And that's the point.

987
00:54:45.120 --> 00:54:47.361
Shh. Please.
Please, just...

988
00:54:47.440 --> 00:54:49.090
That was a very good start.

989
00:54:49.160 --> 00:54:50.366
Mmm, I'm glad you're happy.

990
00:54:50.440 --> 00:54:52.442
I saw his face when
you called him a liar.

991
00:54:52.520 --> 00:54:54.602
I don't think he's used
to hearing things like that.

992
00:54:54.680 --> 00:54:57.047
No, I don't think he is.
Excuse me. Miss Lipstadt?

993
00:54:57.120 --> 00:55:00.090
Yes, that's me.
May I speak to you?

994
00:55:00.160 --> 00:55:02.766
Yes. Um, could you give
us a minute, please?

995
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:08.250
I would like you to come and
meet some of my friends.

996
00:55:08.760 --> 00:55:12.048
Friends with
something in common.

997
00:55:18.880 --> 00:55:20.041
Would you like to sit?

998
00:55:25.720 --> 00:55:28.564
We want to know, how can
you let this happen?

999
00:55:28.960 --> 00:55:31.406
None of us have been called.
We have to be heard.

1000
00:55:32.720 --> 00:55:34.961
A trial of the Holocaust
and no witnesses?

1001
00:55:35.040 --> 00:55:36.690
How can that be right?

1002
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:39.120
There is a whole group of us.

1003
00:55:39.160 --> 00:55:41.811
Deborah, we have to testify.
We have to.

1004
00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:47.168
On behalf of the others.
For the dead.

1005
00:55:55.280 --> 00:55:56.770
I make you a promise.

1006
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.321
The voice of suffering
will be heard.

1007
00:56:06.120 --> 00:56:08.122
I promise you that.

1008
00:56:11.080 --> 00:56:12.416
I was looking
at Irving all the time.

1009
00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:14.681
Yeah, me too. Couldn't
take my eyes off him.

1010
00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:15.896
He is kind of
riveting, isn't he?

1011
00:56:15.920 --> 00:56:17.729
Oh, I think this could
well become a ritual.

1012
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:20.565
A welcome one, don't misunderstand me.

1013
00:56:20.640 --> 00:56:23.723
Deborah? Not for me, thanks.

1014
00:56:23.800 --> 00:56:26.929
You know, a very famous Attorney
General once told me a long time ago

1015
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:29.160
that one would become a much
more effective advocate...

1016
00:56:29.200 --> 00:56:30.281
Can we talk privately?

1017
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:31.456
After a few glasses of claret.

1018
00:56:31.480 --> 00:56:35.371
And, of course, sandwiches.

1019
00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:36.646
Ah!

1020
00:56:36.720 --> 00:56:37.721
Bravo.

1021
00:56:37.800 --> 00:56:38.856
They're always in the cupboard.

1022
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:40.376
I have, uh, cheese sandwiches...

1023
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:42.323
I just talked to a survivor.

1024
00:56:43.680 --> 00:56:45.011
Yeah, well, that's likely.

1025
00:56:45.080 --> 00:56:46.969
There's several
of them in the court.

1026
00:56:48.880 --> 00:56:50.689
Deborah, we're not gonna
discuss this again.

1027
00:56:50.800 --> 00:56:51.976
Why not?
I've explained to you.

1028
00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:53.286
Well, tell me again, Anthony.

1029
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:55.522
Whatever you say, the
survivors are not on trial.

1030
00:56:55.640 --> 00:56:56.641
That's the end of it.

1031
00:56:56.720 --> 00:56:58.165
They confuse the issue.

1032
00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:00.056
Oh, so you can look
a survivor in the face

1033
00:57:00.080 --> 00:57:01.776
and you can tell her she's
not allowed to speak?

1034
00:57:01.800 --> 00:57:03.848
You can do that? Because I can't.
I can't do it.

1035
00:57:04.120 --> 00:57:06.136
Deborah, these people
have been through hell.

1036
00:57:06.160 --> 00:57:07.366
I understand that.

1037
00:57:07.680 --> 00:57:08.806
After all these years,

1038
00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:10.616
they haven't been able
to process the experience.

1039
00:57:10.640 --> 00:57:11.687
I understand that, too.

1040
00:57:12.000 --> 00:57:15.004
But a trial, I'm afraid,
is not therapy.

1041
00:57:15.560 --> 00:57:17.483
It's not my job to give
emotional satisfaction

1042
00:57:17.560 --> 00:57:18.891
to a whole group of people

1043
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:20.769
who can never forget
what happened to them.

1044
00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:24.529
You think they wanna
testify for themselves?

1045
00:57:25.080 --> 00:57:28.050
It's not for themselves
they wanna testify.

1046
00:57:28.880 --> 00:57:32.043
They wanna give voice to the
ones that didn't make it.

1047
00:57:33.080 --> 00:57:35.811
To their families,
their friends.

1048
00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:41.649
Anthony, I... I promised that
their voice would be heard.

1049
00:57:41.720 --> 00:57:42.926
I promised.

1050
00:57:44.560 --> 00:57:45.896
Well, then you'd better
go back out there

1051
00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:47.490
and break your promise.

1052
00:58:19.120 --> 00:58:20.645
Professor Van Pelt.

1053
00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:24.525
May I first of all
welcome you to our country

1054
00:58:24.600 --> 00:58:26.329
and say what a great
pleasure I had

1055
00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:28.442
in reading your book
on Auschwitz.

1056
00:58:29.240 --> 00:58:32.881
You were deeply moved to
visit the actual location?

1057
00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:35.406
More than moved.
I was frightened.

1058
00:58:35.480 --> 00:58:37.562
It's an awesome responsibility.

1059
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:39.256
Professor, would you agree

1060
00:58:39.280 --> 00:58:41.851
it is the duty of historians

1061
00:58:41.920 --> 00:58:44.764
to remain completely
unemotional?

1062
00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:47.843
One's duty is to be unemotional,

1063
00:58:47.960 --> 00:58:49.610
to be objective,

1064
00:58:49.880 --> 00:58:51.245
but one's duty, I think,

1065
00:58:51.320 --> 00:58:53.971
is to remain human
in the exercise.

1066
00:58:57.120 --> 00:58:58.856
Can you explain
to the court, please,

1067
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:02.601
why it is in the very earliest
references to Auschwitz,

1068
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:04.126
published by the Russians

1069
00:59:04.200 --> 00:59:06.680
after the capture of the
camp in January 1945,

1070
00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:08.250
there is no reference whatsoever

1071
00:59:08.320 --> 00:59:10.971
to the discovery
of gas chambers?

1072
00:59:11.120 --> 00:59:15.125
Uh, I would need to see the
documents you refer to.

1073
00:59:15.640 --> 00:59:17.244
Well, that's fair, I think.

1074
00:59:18.200 --> 00:59:19.804
It is fair, my Lord.

1075
00:59:23.160 --> 00:59:25.561
Your report quotes extensively

1076
00:59:25.640 --> 00:59:27.051
from firsthand testimony

1077
00:59:27.120 --> 00:59:29.043
of a man called Tauber.

1078
00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:32.569
Yes. Uh, Tauber was
a Sonderkommando

1079
00:59:32.640 --> 00:59:34.290
in Crematorium ll.

1080
00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:35.845
He helped with the prisoners.

1081
00:59:35.920 --> 00:59:38.571
He was interrogated
at the end of May 1945.

1082
00:59:38.640 --> 00:59:40.085
And, in his document,

1083
00:59:40.440 --> 00:59:44.445
what does Tauber tell us about
the liquidation procedure?

1084
00:59:45.600 --> 00:59:47.284
The... The simulation,
please?

1085
00:59:49.520 --> 00:59:53.844
What he describes is the underground
arrangement of the crematorium.

1086
00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:58.601
The entrance was through
an undressing room.

1087
00:59:58.680 --> 01:00:00.489
The prisoners went
into a corridor,

1088
01:00:00.560 --> 01:00:02.324
and then through
a door on the right

1089
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:04.482
into the gas chamber.

1090
01:00:04.840 --> 01:00:07.446
The door was closed hermetically

1091
01:00:07.520 --> 01:00:11.684
by means of iron bars
which were screwed tight.

1092
01:00:13.240 --> 01:00:14.605
The roof of the gas chamber

1093
01:00:14.680 --> 01:00:18.287
was supported by concrete
columns and wire mesh pillars.

1094
01:00:18.360 --> 01:00:19.600
Professor?

1095
01:00:20.360 --> 01:00:22.283
In your simulation,

1096
01:00:22.360 --> 01:00:25.204
that is the roof
in this big photograph here?

1097
01:00:25.280 --> 01:00:26.281
Uh, yes.

1098
01:00:27.000 --> 01:00:29.207
It is the self-same roof?

1099
01:00:29.560 --> 01:00:30.607
<i>Yes.</i>

1100
01:00:30.680 --> 01:00:32.808
Uh, Tauber says
the sides of these pillars,

1101
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:34.450
which went up through the roof,

1102
01:00:34.520 --> 01:00:38.047
were of heavy
wire mesh, like this.

1103
01:00:40.600 --> 01:00:41.960
What does it mean
when it says that

1104
01:00:42.000 --> 01:00:44.606
the pillars
went up through the roof?

1105
01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:46.968
Went up to the roof, presumably?

1106
01:00:47.080 --> 01:00:50.562
Yes, but they popped
out, uh, above the roof.

1107
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:53.042
The pillars "popped out"?

1108
01:00:53.120 --> 01:00:55.056
The pillars went
through a hole in the roof

1109
01:00:55.080 --> 01:00:57.526
and the earth, which was
arranged on top of the roof,

1110
01:00:57.600 --> 01:01:00.490
and then there was a little,
kind of, chimney on top of that.

1111
01:01:00.600 --> 01:01:02.040
What was the purpose of that,

1112
01:01:02.080 --> 01:01:03.366
architecturally speaking?

1113
01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:05.323
Because these
were hollow pillars

1114
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:06.731
and these were the pillars

1115
01:01:06.800 --> 01:01:08.689
in which the
crystals of Zyklon-B

1116
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:10.762
were inserted into
the gas chamber.

1117
01:01:12.520 --> 01:01:15.091
My Lord, you can see the layout.

1118
01:01:15.520 --> 01:01:17.602
You can see the pillars with

1119
01:01:17.680 --> 01:01:20.445
the wire mesh columns
next to them.

1120
01:01:21.200 --> 01:01:22.326
You have drawn in

1121
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:25.400
those wire mesh columns,
have you not?

1122
01:01:26.000 --> 01:01:29.163
In the sketches
and on the computer?

1123
01:01:29.240 --> 01:01:31.402
One of my students did, yes.

1124
01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:33.767
But the wire mesh
is an addition,

1125
01:01:34.240 --> 01:01:35.844
it is not based on drawings

1126
01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:37.450
and blueprints, is it?

1127
01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:39.683
It is based on the
drawing made by the man

1128
01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:41.484
who actually made these pillars.

1129
01:01:41.560 --> 01:01:43.562
Michael Kula.
In the camp workshop.

1130
01:01:43.640 --> 01:01:44.641
And this hole

1131
01:01:45.000 --> 01:01:46.889
in the roof, or these holes,

1132
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:50.043
how many wire mesh columns
were there? Four?

1133
01:01:50.240 --> 01:01:53.050
Uh... One, two,
three, four.

1134
01:01:55.480 --> 01:01:58.802
Professor Pelt, we are wasting
our time, really, are we not?

1135
01:01:59.960 --> 01:02:03.043
You yourself have
stood on that roof

1136
01:02:03.640 --> 01:02:05.847
and looked for those holes
and not found them.

1137
01:02:05.920 --> 01:02:09.208
Our experts have stood on
that roof and not found them.

1138
01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:12.443
My Lord, there are no
holes in that roof.

1139
01:02:12.520 --> 01:02:14.488
There never were any holes.

1140
01:02:14.560 --> 01:02:18.121
Therefore they cannot have poured
cyanide capsules through that roof.

1141
01:02:18.200 --> 01:02:19.440
You will appreciate,

1142
01:02:19.520 --> 01:02:22.683
if there had been
those holes in that roof,

1143
01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:24.896
which are the cardinal linchpin
of the defense in this action,

1144
01:02:24.920 --> 01:02:27.321
they would have found them by now.
They have not found them!

1145
01:02:27.680 --> 01:02:29.921
And all the eyewitnesses
on whom he relies

1146
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:32.401
are therefore exposed
as the liars that they are.

1147
01:02:36.720 --> 01:02:40.042
Uh, my Lord,
it is now 3:56.

1148
01:02:41.040 --> 01:02:42.929
Unless Mr. Rampton
wishes to say

1149
01:02:43.000 --> 01:02:44.331
something to
repair the damage...

1150
01:02:44.400 --> 01:02:45.845
My Lord, may I respond to this?

1151
01:02:46.400 --> 01:02:48.971
You may.
But not until tomorrow.

1152
01:02:49.720 --> 01:02:51.051
Court rise.

1153
01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:54.496
Just walk.

1154
01:02:54.520 --> 01:02:55.816
Say nothing. The trial took
an extraordinary turn...

1155
01:02:55.840 --> 01:02:58.571
Why did Rampton drop it?
Why did he let it go?

1156
01:02:58.640 --> 01:03:00.176
Deborah, there are
journalists everywhere.

1157
01:03:00.200 --> 01:03:02.248
Just look straight ahead
and keep walking, please.

1158
01:03:02.320 --> 01:03:04.402
Richard, can we get
some of your time, please?

1159
01:03:04.480 --> 01:03:06.323
I don't have much time now.
It won't take long.

1160
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:08.687
We have an unhappy client.
Okay, yes.

1161
01:03:09.400 --> 01:03:10.811
Deborah, this is disastrous.

1162
01:03:10.880 --> 01:03:12.216
I'm sorry. I'm going to
have to take her. I know.

1163
01:03:12.240 --> 01:03:13.287
I'm so sorry.

1164
01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:14.736
A major setback for the defense

1165
01:03:14.760 --> 01:03:16.728
who are now at the bottom
of an uphill struggle.

1166
01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:19.281
Let's all calm down, please.
Try not to panic.

1167
01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:21.886
Irving pulled a rabbit
out of the hat at 3:55.

1168
01:03:21.960 --> 01:03:23.883
He thinks it's clever.
It isn't clever.

1169
01:03:23.960 --> 01:03:25.296
No, it's not clever.
It's amateur dramatics.

1170
01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:26.536
It doesn't mean
it's not effective.

1171
01:03:26.560 --> 01:03:27.856
Richard is gonna
deal with this tomorrow.

1172
01:03:27.880 --> 01:03:29.336
Look at these, look at these.
Not that one.

1173
01:03:29.360 --> 01:03:30.576
I've looked at them.
I've seen them.

1174
01:03:30.600 --> 01:03:32.648
I know them. Look.Look.
Perfectly clear.

1175
01:03:32.720 --> 01:03:35.849
The Olere drawings. The US
Air Force aerial photo.

1176
01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:37.922
And there they are.
I know these photos.

1177
01:03:38.080 --> 01:03:39.896
I don't need to look at them.
Holes in all of them, Deborah.

1178
01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:42.048
Look, look, look.
Same shape, same pattern.

1179
01:03:42.120 --> 01:03:45.203
One, two, three, four.

1180
01:03:45.280 --> 01:03:47.123
And you know
what Irving is gonna say?

1181
01:03:47.200 --> 01:03:48.376
Irving's gonna say,
"They're not holes.

1182
01:03:48.400 --> 01:03:49.736
"They're shadows,
they're forgeries,

1183
01:03:49.760 --> 01:03:50.896
"they're glitches
on the negative,

1184
01:03:50.920 --> 01:03:52.490
"they're paint cans
on the roof."

1185
01:03:52.560 --> 01:03:54.289
Yes, and it's our job
to prove otherwise.

1186
01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:56.176
But how are you gonna do that?
Anyway, it's too late.

1187
01:03:56.200 --> 01:03:57.964
It's already out there.
It's in the press.

1188
01:03:58.040 --> 01:03:59.896
Oh, it's in the press?
So what it's in the press?

1189
01:03:59.920 --> 01:04:01.684
So Irving got what he came for.

1190
01:04:01.760 --> 01:04:03.728
You know, he wanted
headlines, he got 'em.

1191
01:04:04.000 --> 01:04:05.365
"No holes,
no Holocaust!"

1192
01:04:05.440 --> 01:04:06.960
He wanted a catchy
phrase, he's got it.

1193
01:04:07.000 --> 01:04:08.923
It's gonna... It's gonna
spread like a virus.

1194
01:04:09.000 --> 01:04:10.001
Do you want tea?

1195
01:04:10.080 --> 01:04:11.736
No, I don't want tea.
Just asking.

1196
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:13.205
Don't you see what he's doing?

1197
01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:14.805
He's making it
respectable to say

1198
01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:16.200
that there are
two points of view.

1199
01:04:16.840 --> 01:04:18.205
People are gonna
see the news now

1200
01:04:18.280 --> 01:04:19.576
and they're gonna think,
"Oh, okay.

1201
01:04:19.600 --> 01:04:21.736
"Some people think there were
gas chambers at Auschwitz,

1202
01:04:21.760 --> 01:04:24.047
"and, oh, this is interesting,
some people don't."

1203
01:04:24.120 --> 01:04:26.696
Yes, but Deborah, you know why he
chose Auschwitz in the first place.

1204
01:04:26.720 --> 01:04:28.736
Why he chose Auschwitz?
Because everybody heard of it.

1205
01:04:28.760 --> 01:04:30.330
Because of its emotional impact.
No.

1206
01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:32.482
Because“. I don't know.
What are you getting at?

1207
01:04:32.560 --> 01:04:34.496
No. Because it wasn't built
as an extermination camp.

1208
01:04:34.520 --> 01:04:35.726
It was built as a labor camp.

1209
01:04:35.800 --> 01:04:37.400
- I know that.
- Then it was modified.

1210
01:04:37.440 --> 01:04:38.440
Yes, I know that.

1211
01:04:38.520 --> 01:04:39.806
That's why he's going after it.

1212
01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:42.201
It's a battering ram into
a much bigger subject.

1213
01:04:42.280 --> 01:04:44.760
Auschwitz is at the very
center of Holocaust belief,

1214
01:04:44.840 --> 01:04:47.366
so Auschwitz is at the very
center of Holocaust denial.

1215
01:04:47.640 --> 01:04:48.971
Think about it logically.

1216
01:04:49.040 --> 01:04:51.247
It doesn't make any sense
at all what he says.

1217
01:04:51.320 --> 01:04:52.651
"No holes, no Holocaust."

1218
01:04:52.720 --> 01:04:54.404
He seizes one tiny fact

1219
01:04:54.480 --> 01:04:56.416
and because that can't be
physically proved, he says,

1220
01:04:56.440 --> 01:04:58.296
"Oh, well, then that throws
everything into doubt.

1221
01:04:58.320 --> 01:04:59.496
"The Nazis didn't
do any murdering.

1222
01:04:59.520 --> 01:05:00.616
"They didn't do
any murdering at all."

1223
01:05:00.640 --> 01:05:02.768
I know that. I wrote
a whole book about it.

1224
01:05:02.840 --> 01:05:03.976
- For God's sake...
- I know that.

1225
01:05:04.000 --> 01:05:05.496
It's the same
thing <i>as</i> the Hitler trick.

1226
01:05:05.520 --> 01:05:06.936
It's exactly the same thing.
Exactly the same thing!

1227
01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:08.086
"Give them $1,000."

1228
01:05:08.160 --> 01:05:10.176
Tell me about it.
I'm the one that he did it to.

1229
01:05:10.200 --> 01:05:11.576
You know, if you can't
find a piece of paper

1230
01:05:11.600 --> 01:05:13.090
where it says, you know,

1231
01:05:13.160 --> 01:05:14.525
"Please murder the Jews,"

1232
01:05:14.600 --> 01:05:16.896
it means Hitler never wanted
them to die in the first place.

1233
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:18.570
"Hitler was
the Jews' best friend."

1234
01:05:18.640 --> 01:05:20.847
Irving said that!
He actually said that!

1235
01:05:20.920 --> 01:05:21.921
I have to go.

1236
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:23.336
Wait a minute! I
wanna say something.

1237
01:05:23.360 --> 01:05:24.976
And for once I want you
all to listen to me.

1238
01:05:25.000 --> 01:05:26.001
I'm the defendant

1239
01:05:26.080 --> 01:05:27.081
and I know the rule.

1240
01:05:27.160 --> 01:05:28.764
The rule is
the client instructs.

1241
01:05:28.840 --> 01:05:30.569
Well, the client's instructing.

1242
01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:34.367
The survivors go on the stand.
And I go on the stand, too.

1243
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:36.361
Gentlemen.

1244
01:05:37.560 --> 01:05:40.404
Richard? Where's he going?
Richard?

1245
01:05:40.480 --> 01:05:42.050
Did you hear what I just said?
Deborah!

1246
01:05:42.720 --> 01:05:45.530
Richard. Richard.

1247
01:05:46.600 --> 01:05:48.443
Why is he leaving?
Because he has to prepare.

1248
01:05:48.520 --> 01:05:49.521
That's why he's leaving.

1249
01:05:49.600 --> 01:05:50.965
He doesn't just
turn up in court.

1250
01:05:51.040 --> 01:05:53.122
He devotes his entire day,
every minute of his day,

1251
01:05:53.200 --> 01:05:55.680
rigorously, to this case and nothing but.
And that's the point!

1252
01:05:55.760 --> 01:05:59.048
No, what you're not getting,
what you're ignoring,

1253
01:05:59.120 --> 01:06:00.929
is that we know what
happened at Auschwitz

1254
01:06:01.000 --> 01:06:02.976
because there were people
there who actually saw it.

1255
01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:05.571
Oh, Deborah, Deborah.
Yes, yes!

1256
01:06:05.640 --> 01:06:07.483
With their own eyes.

1257
01:06:07.560 --> 01:06:08.766
They're called survivors.

1258
01:06:08.840 --> 01:06:10.490
Yes. And put
survivors on the stand

1259
01:06:10.560 --> 01:06:12.403
and Irving will humiliate them.

1260
01:06:12.720 --> 01:06:14.927
Remember the Zundel trial.
Remember the Exodus trial.

1261
01:06:15.000 --> 01:06:16.445
They were torn apart.

1262
01:06:17.920 --> 01:06:19.570
Because survivors
don't remember.

1263
01:06:19.680 --> 01:06:21.240
Not every detail.
They forget something.

1264
01:06:21.280 --> 01:06:23.416
They say a door was on the left,
when actually it was on the right,

1265
01:06:23.440 --> 01:06:24.680
and then, wham! Irving's in.

1266
01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:26.816
You see? "They're liars, you
can't trust anything they say."

1267
01:06:26.840 --> 01:06:28.120
That's it, that's the technique.

1268
01:06:28.400 --> 01:06:30.482
<i>Will roll up her sleeve
and show you the tattoo</i>

1269
01:06:30.560 --> 01:06:32.324
<i>to prove that, yes,
she was in Auschwitz.</i>

1270
01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:34.096
Do you think
Irving's gonna respect them?

1271
01:06:34.120 --> 01:06:36.360
You want that? Holocaust
survivors mocked and humiliated?

1272
01:06:36.400 --> 01:06:38.164
<i>You've got to get tasteless.</i>

1273
01:06:38.240 --> 01:06:39.287
<i>I shall say,</i>

1274
01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:42.443
<i>"Mrs. Altman, how much money</i>

1275
01:06:42.560 --> 01:06:45.484
<i>"have you made out of
that tattoo since 1945?"</i>

1276
01:06:51.200 --> 01:06:52.400
You want more of that, do you?

1277
01:06:54.320 --> 01:06:55.321
You think that's helpful?

1278
01:08:24.760 --> 01:08:26.842
So, now, Mr. Irving,

1279
01:08:28.240 --> 01:08:30.607
I will ask you to explain why,

1280
01:08:31.440 --> 01:08:34.887
if, as you claim, there were
no gas chambers in Auschwitz,

1281
01:08:35.240 --> 01:08:40.804
the gratings taken in 1945
by the Polish authorities

1282
01:08:40.880 --> 01:08:43.884
from Morgue 1 in Crematorium
ll were covered in cyanide,

1283
01:08:44.200 --> 01:08:48.649
and why the camp's chief
architect, Karl Bischoff,

1284
01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:51.530
specifically refers to Morgue 1

1285
01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:53.489
<i>as a Vergasungskeller,</i>

1286
01:08:54.200 --> 01:08:55.611
a "gassing cellar."

1287
01:08:57.400 --> 01:08:58.561
Well?

1288
01:09:00.040 --> 01:09:02.725
I am willing to concede
that they did indeed find

1289
01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:06.202
in the ventilator gratings
traces of cyanide.

1290
01:09:06.280 --> 01:09:07.930
They did?
Yes.

1291
01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:10.763
I will also concede
that it was indeed

1292
01:09:10.840 --> 01:09:12.410
used as a gassing cellar.

1293
01:09:12.640 --> 01:09:14.324
It was?
Yes.

1294
01:09:14.400 --> 01:09:15.561
Good. So...

1295
01:09:16.920 --> 01:09:18.285
Gassing what?

1296
01:09:18.600 --> 01:09:20.523
Well, I think
the evidence is clear

1297
01:09:21.240 --> 01:09:24.210
that the room was used
as a gassing cellar

1298
01:09:24.280 --> 01:09:26.282
for fumigating cadavers.

1299
01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:30.648
Fumigating cadavers?
Yes.

1300
01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:32.768
Why exactly do you say that?

1301
01:09:33.880 --> 01:09:35.803
That is what mortuaries are for.

1302
01:09:35.880 --> 01:09:38.167
In mortuaries you put cadavers.

1303
01:09:38.520 --> 01:09:40.409
What is the evidence
that that room

1304
01:09:40.480 --> 01:09:42.562
was used for gassing corpses?

1305
01:09:43.160 --> 01:09:44.525
That is what it was built for.

1306
01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:46.523
I'm sorry, this, uh,

1307
01:09:47.480 --> 01:09:48.970
seems a crude question,

1308
01:09:49.080 --> 01:09:51.526
but what is the point
of gassing a corpse?

1309
01:09:52.280 --> 01:09:53.725
Because, my Lord,

1310
01:09:53.800 --> 01:09:55.848
they came in heavily infested

1311
01:09:55.960 --> 01:09:58.691
with the typhus-bearing
lice which had killed them.

1312
01:09:58.760 --> 01:09:59.966
Did they?

1313
01:10:00.600 --> 01:10:03.331
Did they, Mr. Irving?
Did they indeed?

1314
01:10:03.400 --> 01:10:05.129
Then please explain to me

1315
01:10:05.200 --> 01:10:07.487
why they needed
a gas-proof door

1316
01:10:07.560 --> 01:10:10.006
with a peep hole
with double 8mm glass

1317
01:10:10.080 --> 01:10:12.811
and a metal grill on the inside?

1318
01:10:23.640 --> 01:10:25.529
You will remember at this time

1319
01:10:25.600 --> 01:10:27.284
most of Germany
was under the weight

1320
01:10:27.360 --> 01:10:28.725
of Royal Air Force
bomber command.

1321
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:32.085
There was a concern
about the need

1322
01:10:32.160 --> 01:10:33.491
to build
bomb-tight shelters.

1323
01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:35.722
So now it's an air-raid
shelter, is it?

1324
01:10:36.040 --> 01:10:37.041
I beg your pardon?

1325
01:10:37.120 --> 01:10:40.841
It is either a room for
gassing already dead corpses,

1326
01:10:41.160 --> 01:10:42.650
or it's an
air-raid shelter?

1327
01:10:42.720 --> 01:10:44.643
Did I say either/or?

1328
01:10:45.280 --> 01:10:47.487
In early 1943?

1329
01:10:48.320 --> 01:10:49.685
An air-raid shelter?

1330
01:10:50.000 --> 01:10:51.411
When you know
perfectly well that

1331
01:10:51.480 --> 01:10:53.244
the first bombing
raid near Auschwitz

1332
01:10:53.320 --> 01:10:55.846
wasn't until late 1944.

1333
01:10:56.520 --> 01:10:58.045
And the placing

1334
01:10:58.640 --> 01:11:01.803
of this so-called
"air-raid shelter,"

1335
01:11:01.880 --> 01:11:02.881
if it was for the SS,

1336
01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:05.850
it was a terribly long way from
the SS barracks, wasn't it?

1337
01:11:06.400 --> 01:11:07.765
Have you thought of that?

1338
01:11:07.840 --> 01:11:10.207
It's two and a half
miles, isn't it?

1339
01:11:12.120 --> 01:11:13.246
If there was a bombing raid,

1340
01:11:13.320 --> 01:11:15.243
they'd all be dead
before they got there.

1341
01:11:15.680 --> 01:11:20.083
But can you really see lots
of very heavily armed men

1342
01:11:20.160 --> 01:11:22.561
running the two and a
half to three miles

1343
01:11:22.640 --> 01:11:24.961
from the SS barracks to a cellar

1344
01:11:25.200 --> 01:11:27.168
at the far end of Birkenau?

1345
01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:29.251
You see...

1346
01:11:30.800 --> 01:11:32.723
I'm trying to understand

1347
01:11:33.240 --> 01:11:36.722
if there was this,
this dual function,

1348
01:11:36.800 --> 01:11:38.643
so see if you can help me.

1349
01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:40.210
Now, if the corpses

1350
01:11:40.280 --> 01:11:42.806
were also gassed there,

1351
01:11:42.880 --> 01:11:44.450
then, as I understand it,

1352
01:11:44.520 --> 01:11:47.490
they were then
sent to be incinerated?

1353
01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:48.641
Yes.

1354
01:11:49.400 --> 01:11:52.404
What is the point
in gassing a corpse

1355
01:11:52.480 --> 01:11:54.403
that is about to be burnt?

1356
01:11:58.360 --> 01:11:59.725
I'm not sure, saying this

1357
01:11:59.800 --> 01:12:01.723
off the top of my head, Mr.
Rampton.

1358
01:12:02.240 --> 01:12:04.288
I'm not a Holocaust historian,

1359
01:12:04.360 --> 01:12:06.806
I'm a Hitler historian.

1360
01:12:06.880 --> 01:12:10.089
Then why don't you keep your
mouth shut about the Holocaust?

1361
01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:13.485
The truth is, as usual,
Mr. Irving,

1362
01:12:13.560 --> 01:12:14.721
you jump in off the board

1363
01:12:14.800 --> 01:12:16.689
spouting whatever rubbish
comes into your head

1364
01:12:16.760 --> 01:12:19.411
in order to avoid
the obvious conclusion.

1365
01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:22.126
This is not because
you're a rotten historian.

1366
01:12:22.200 --> 01:12:25.761
It's because you're
a bent one, as well.

1367
01:13:10.400 --> 01:13:11.925
Come in!

1368
01:13:22.160 --> 01:13:24.128
Um, forgive me.
I should have rung,

1369
01:13:24.200 --> 01:13:25.770
but I thought
it would be interesting

1370
01:13:25.880 --> 01:13:27.405
to see where you lived.

1371
01:13:28.240 --> 01:13:31.369
Is that all right?
Yes, of course.

1372
01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:33.256
Come in, please.
Thank you. Thank you.

1373
01:13:33.280 --> 01:13:35.726
It's, uh, very messy.

1374
01:13:35.800 --> 01:13:37.848
Well, that's not
going to bother me.

1375
01:13:38.480 --> 01:13:42.405
Let's see, the, um, 1995
Pommard les Epenots.

1376
01:13:43.520 --> 01:13:44.931
Uh, it's rather special,
I think.

1377
01:13:45.000 --> 01:13:46.411
You've had it before, remember?

1378
01:13:46.480 --> 01:13:48.050
Oh, uh, yes.

1379
01:13:49.240 --> 01:13:51.846
Well, there are glasses here.

1380
01:13:52.360 --> 01:13:54.089
Ah, shame.
I rather like plastic.

1381
01:13:54.920 --> 01:13:56.445
Still, you can't
have everything.

1382
01:14:00.360 --> 01:14:02.408
I like to treat
myself, don't you?

1383
01:14:03.120 --> 01:14:04.326
Why should all the bad people

1384
01:14:04.400 --> 01:14:06.368
have all the good
things in life?

1385
01:14:06.600 --> 01:14:07.601
Like this?

1386
01:14:08.760 --> 01:14:11.923
You had a good morning. Yes, I did.
I did, didn't I?

1387
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:13.968
I rather think it went my way.

1388
01:14:14.040 --> 01:14:15.485
Cheers.
Cheers.

1389
01:14:15.560 --> 01:14:16.800
Mmm.

1390
01:14:17.440 --> 01:14:19.841
It's paying off.
What is?

1391
01:14:20.560 --> 01:14:22.289
Your technique.
That thing you do.

1392
01:14:22.360 --> 01:14:23.725
You never catch his eye.

1393
01:14:23.800 --> 01:14:25.484
Ah! You've noticed, have you?

1394
01:14:25.560 --> 01:14:27.376
Well, what do you think
I've been doing these...

1395
01:14:27.400 --> 01:14:28.970
These past weeks?

1396
01:14:29.040 --> 01:14:30.041
Please, uh...

1397
01:14:30.560 --> 01:14:32.403
Sit.
Oh, thank you.

1398
01:14:32.560 --> 01:14:34.881
Yes, well, it's my way of

1399
01:14:35.440 --> 01:14:36.536
telling him what I think of him.

1400
01:14:36.560 --> 01:14:38.927
I don't look at him. It's
getting under his skin.

1401
01:14:45.880 --> 01:14:48.201
I owe you an apology.

1402
01:14:49.080 --> 01:14:50.684
I can't think why.

1403
01:14:50.760 --> 01:14:53.081
For Auschwitz.
Oh.

1404
01:14:55.080 --> 01:14:56.411
I thought you were rude.

1405
01:14:57.120 --> 01:14:58.724
I thought you were late.

1406
01:14:59.560 --> 01:15:00.607
But now I understand.

1407
01:15:00.680 --> 01:15:02.376
You were just... You were
pacing out the distance.

1408
01:15:02.400 --> 01:15:03.686
Yes.
Yes, I had to.

1409
01:15:03.760 --> 01:15:06.001
Well, I understand
that from today.

1410
01:15:06.080 --> 01:15:10.165
Yes, it's a scene of a crime.
I have to go to the site.

1411
01:15:10.240 --> 01:15:12.971
You were preparing a case.
You had to be sure.

1412
01:15:13.040 --> 01:15:15.361
However disrespectful
you seemed.

1413
01:15:15.440 --> 01:15:17.681
However heartless.

1414
01:15:20.440 --> 01:15:22.124
That's what I do.

1415
01:15:25.040 --> 01:15:27.327
I didn't know what to expect.

1416
01:15:28.120 --> 01:15:31.010
It was...
It was a brief.

1417
01:15:31.480 --> 01:15:33.403
I mean, my previous
brief, believe it or not,

1418
01:15:33.480 --> 01:15:34.925
was from McDonald's.

1419
01:15:37.520 --> 01:15:41.764
How could Auschwitz be
just another brief?

1420
01:15:42.720 --> 01:15:44.085
I am sorry that

1421
01:15:45.320 --> 01:15:48.324
perhaps you felt that
that's what it was to me.

1422
01:15:51.280 --> 01:15:54.682
Very upsetting to see a
client in such distress.

1423
01:15:55.360 --> 01:15:57.124
We didn't mean to
make you unhappy.

1424
01:15:57.240 --> 01:15:58.571
I know that.

1425
01:16:00.520 --> 01:16:02.249
But I have never trusted anyone

1426
01:16:02.320 --> 01:16:03.560
to do anything on my behalf

1427
01:16:03.640 --> 01:16:05.404
since I was a child.

1428
01:16:06.800 --> 01:16:10.247
And all I have is my
voice and my conscience

1429
01:16:10.320 --> 01:16:13.244
and I have to listen to it.

1430
01:16:13.320 --> 01:16:14.481
Your conscience?
Yes!

1431
01:16:14.560 --> 01:16:15.686
Yes.

1432
01:16:16.880 --> 01:16:19.247
They're strange
things, consciences.

1433
01:16:19.320 --> 01:16:21.766
Trouble is, what feels best

1434
01:16:23.120 --> 01:16:25.646
isn't necessarily
what works best.

1435
01:16:26.680 --> 01:16:28.523
I mean, by all means,

1436
01:16:28.600 --> 01:16:30.170
stand up, look the
devil in the eye,

1437
01:16:31.440 --> 01:16:32.965
tell him what you feel.

1438
01:16:33.680 --> 01:16:36.251
Why not? It's very satisfying.
See what happens.

1439
01:16:37.960 --> 01:16:39.564
And risk losing.

1440
01:16:41.240 --> 01:16:42.844
Not just for yourself.

1441
01:16:43.480 --> 01:16:44.480
For the others.

1442
01:16:44.520 --> 01:16:47.444
For everyone.
Forever.

1443
01:16:48.120 --> 01:16:49.770
Or?

1444
01:16:49.840 --> 01:16:53.083
Or...
You know "or."

1445
01:16:54.160 --> 01:16:55.685
Stay seated.

1446
01:16:57.480 --> 01:16:58.606
Button your lip.

1447
01:17:00.480 --> 01:17:01.845
Win.

1448
01:17:04.280 --> 01:17:06.647
An act of self-denial.

1449
01:17:16.720 --> 01:17:18.404
Do you have any
idea how hard it is

1450
01:17:18.480 --> 01:17:21.404
to hand over your conscience
to somebody else?

1451
01:17:24.640 --> 01:17:27.564
This is everything I
thought I would never do.

1452
01:17:33.080 --> 01:17:34.650
All right.

1453
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:41.249
I'm gonna hand mine over
to this, uh, fly-fishing,

1454
01:17:42.320 --> 01:17:44.448
wine-drinking

1455
01:17:44.520 --> 01:17:45.521
Scotsman.

1456
01:18:01.440 --> 01:18:03.681
There you are.
Hello.

1457
01:18:03.800 --> 01:18:06.371
Morning. Here,
let me move this.

1458
01:18:06.440 --> 01:18:07.601
Sit down.

1459
01:18:08.760 --> 01:18:10.125
What is that?

1460
01:18:10.440 --> 01:18:12.681
Ah.
It's black pudding.

1461
01:18:12.760 --> 01:18:13.761
It's traditional.

1462
01:18:14.440 --> 01:18:15.441
It's made of blood.

1463
01:18:15.520 --> 01:18:17.329
And you wanna live until
the end of the trial?

1464
01:18:17.400 --> 01:18:19.641
Well, you've cheered
up since last night.

1465
01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:21.808
I've cheered up
because of last night.

1466
01:18:22.120 --> 01:18:23.496
Shutting up's not
gonna be easy but...

1467
01:18:23.520 --> 01:18:24.885
Oh, could I have a black pudding

1468
01:18:24.960 --> 01:18:25.960
for my friend, please?

1469
01:18:26.000 --> 01:18:28.367
Ignore him. I
want a bagel, please.

1470
01:18:28.440 --> 01:18:31.125
Oh, and not toasted.
Thanks.

1471
01:18:31.440 --> 01:18:33.602
Oh, I need this. It's
gonna be a tough day.

1472
01:18:33.680 --> 01:18:34.841
Proving intention.

1473
01:18:35.600 --> 01:18:38.046
Richard Evans
gave us plenty of places

1474
01:18:38.120 --> 01:18:39.690
where Irving got
his facts wrong.

1475
01:18:39.760 --> 01:18:42.445
But we have to prove he got
'em wrong intentionally.

1476
01:18:43.120 --> 01:18:44.849
He's fighting for his life.

1477
01:18:44.920 --> 01:18:46.365
And remember,

1478
01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:48.330
he knows the law
as well as we do.

1479
01:18:48.400 --> 01:18:51.643
Unless we prove that Irving's
mistakes are deliberate,

1480
01:18:51.720 --> 01:18:52.926
we lose.

1481
01:18:53.680 --> 01:18:54.681
We lose.

1482
01:18:56.240 --> 01:18:57.287
<i>Mr. Irving,</i>

1483
01:18:58.520 --> 01:18:59.726
the defense are claiming that

1484
01:18:59.800 --> 01:19:01.768
you deliberately
falsified evidence

1485
01:19:01.880 --> 01:19:03.882
to suit your own
political purposes.

1486
01:19:03.960 --> 01:19:06.167
You must address that charge.

1487
01:19:06.360 --> 01:19:11.321
<i>We must deal with what we</i>
call <i>"keine Liquidierung-"</i>

1488
01:19:12.160 --> 01:19:15.369
Very well. We're looking first
at the November 30th entry.

1489
01:19:15.440 --> 01:19:16.680
Am I right?

1490
01:19:16.760 --> 01:19:17.886
My Lord,

1491
01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:19.689
if I may explain the context?

1492
01:19:19.760 --> 01:19:21.000
Please.

1493
01:19:22.120 --> 01:19:24.327
Heinrich Himmler, the Head
of the SS, kept a log

1494
01:19:24.400 --> 01:19:26.562
in which he made a record
of every telephone call

1495
01:19:26.640 --> 01:19:28.563
he gave and received.

1496
01:19:28.640 --> 01:19:30.210
In 1941,

1497
01:19:30.560 --> 01:19:32.881
he called Heydrich
from Hitler's bunker

1498
01:19:32.960 --> 01:19:34.724
to give him instructions.

1499
01:19:34.800 --> 01:19:37.610
After the call,
he wrote some words.

1500
01:19:37.680 --> 01:19:41.321
<i>"Jodentransport aus Berlin.</i>

1501
01:19:41.400 --> 01:19:43.084
<i>"Keine Liquidierung.</i>

1502
01:19:43.160 --> 01:19:45.447
<i>"Jodentransport aus Berlin.
Keine Liquidierung."</i>

1503
01:19:45.520 --> 01:19:46.851
Which clearly means,

1504
01:19:46.920 --> 01:19:50.208
"The Jew Transport from Berlin.

1505
01:19:50.600 --> 01:19:52.170
"No liquidation."

1506
01:19:52.240 --> 01:19:55.608
"The Jew Transport," singular,

1507
01:19:56.280 --> 01:19:57.361
"from Berlin."

1508
01:19:58.800 --> 01:20:00.131
<i>In Hitler's War,</i>

1509
01:20:00.200 --> 01:20:02.646
you write something
completely different.

1510
01:20:03.160 --> 01:20:06.004
"At 01:30,
Himmler was obliged

1511
01:20:06.600 --> 01:20:09.649
"to telephone from Hitler's
bunker to Heydrich

1512
01:20:09.720 --> 01:20:14.169
"the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated."

1513
01:20:14.240 --> 01:20:17.449
In other words, you
mistranslate the log

1514
01:20:17.840 --> 01:20:20.002
so <i>as</i> to pretend that
this order came directly

1515
01:20:20.080 --> 01:20:21.320
from Hitler, which it didn't,

1516
01:20:21.400 --> 01:20:22.970
they hadn't even met that day,

1517
01:20:23.880 --> 01:20:24.927
and that it applied

1518
01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:28.402
not to just one particular
trainload of Jews,

1519
01:20:28.480 --> 01:20:31.324
but to all Jews
throughout Germany.

1520
01:20:31.400 --> 01:20:34.404
And in order to bolster

1521
01:20:34.760 --> 01:20:36.762
this false impression,

1522
01:20:36.840 --> 01:20:39.810
you omit the word
"Berlin" altogether.

1523
01:20:40.400 --> 01:20:42.050
So your claim to have

1524
01:20:42.120 --> 01:20:46.728
incontrovertible proof that Hitler tried
to stop the liquidation of the Jews,

1525
01:20:47.160 --> 01:20:51.131
as opposed to one particular
trainload of Jews, is false.

1526
01:20:51.600 --> 01:20:54.570
You knew that then. You know it now.
It's wrong.

1527
01:20:57.200 --> 01:20:59.043
Of course,
if you privately decided

1528
01:20:59.120 --> 01:21:01.088
it was a...

1529
01:21:01.440 --> 01:21:04.011
A reasonable kind
of mistake to make

1530
01:21:04.520 --> 01:21:07.524
when one is reading a new
document for the first time,

1531
01:21:07.600 --> 01:21:11.161
you would, uh, you would immediately
tell the court, would you not?

1532
01:21:11.240 --> 01:21:12.480
Of course, I would.

1533
01:21:13.120 --> 01:21:17.603
I do not feel this is a
reasonable mistake to make.

1534
01:21:18.280 --> 01:21:19.850
I believe it's deliberate.

1535
01:21:19.920 --> 01:21:21.081
Ha!

1536
01:21:27.280 --> 01:21:28.456
<i>In</i> Hitler's War,

1537
01:21:28.480 --> 01:21:30.687
<i>you write something
completely different.</i>

1538
01:21:31.680 --> 01:21:34.411
<i>"At 01:30, Himmler was obliged</i>

1539
01:21:35.160 --> 01:21:38.004
<i>"to telephone from Hitler's
bunker to Heydrich</i>

1540
01:21:38.120 --> 01:21:42.808
<i>"the explicit order that Jews
were not to be liquidated."</i>

1541
01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:46.202
What? Because I'm tired of it.

1542
01:21:47.240 --> 01:21:49.322
You didn't even
want to be a lawyer.

1543
01:21:52.760 --> 01:21:54.410
The Holocaust, the Holocaust.

1544
01:21:56.480 --> 01:21:58.448
There are other things.

1545
01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:02.251
At some point isn't everyone
gonna have to let go?

1546
01:22:03.840 --> 01:22:05.683
It... It's an obsession.

1547
01:22:06.280 --> 01:22:07.850
How many years?

1548
01:22:08.840 --> 01:22:11.411
Are they ever gonna
let go of this grievance?

1549
01:22:11.480 --> 01:22:14.165
I think it's rather
more than a grievance.

1550
01:22:15.280 --> 01:22:16.376
<i>I find</i> the <i>whole</i>

1551
01:22:16.400 --> 01:22:18.448
<i>Holocaust story utterly boring.</i>

1552
01:22:20.000 --> 01:22:22.082
<i>The Jews keep going on
about the Holocaust</i>

1553
01:22:22.160 --> 01:22:23.889
<i>because it's the only
interesting thing</i>

1554
01:22:24.000 --> 01:22:26.367
<i>which has happened to them
in 3,000 years.</i>

1555
01:22:26.440 --> 01:22:29.171
<i>I'm not
interested in the Holocaust,</i>

1556
01:22:29.240 --> 01:22:31.288
<i>I don't know anyone who is.</i>

1557
01:22:32.480 --> 01:22:33.656
And that's an excerpt

1558
01:22:33.680 --> 01:22:35.409
from a speech you made

1559
01:22:35.480 --> 01:22:38.450
at the Best Western Hotel
in Tampa

1560
01:22:38.520 --> 01:22:42.047
on July the 25th, 1998.

1561
01:22:42.360 --> 01:22:43.360
I remember speaking,

1562
01:22:43.400 --> 01:22:45.243
um, I do not know
what the date was.

1563
01:22:45.600 --> 01:22:49.889
You said, "I think 95%
of the thinking public

1564
01:22:50.240 --> 01:22:52.322
"find the Holocaust
endlessly boring,

1565
01:22:52.400 --> 01:22:54.084
"but they dare not say it

1566
01:22:54.160 --> 01:22:57.289
"because it is
politically incorrect."

1567
01:22:58.240 --> 01:23:00.481
Uh, Mr. Irving,
next I want to refer you

1568
01:23:00.560 --> 01:23:03.723
to a talk you gave
to the Clarendon Club,

1569
01:23:03.800 --> 01:23:05.404
whatever that may be,

1570
01:23:05.480 --> 01:23:08.802
on the 19th of September, 1992.

1571
01:23:09.240 --> 01:23:14.121
Uh, the transcripts. Tab
five, my Lord, page 35.

1572
01:23:14.200 --> 01:23:15.247
Thank you.

1573
01:23:15.800 --> 01:23:17.976
<i>But if there is
one thing that gets up my nose,</i>

1574
01:23:18.000 --> 01:23:20.082
<i>I must admit it's this.</i>

1575
01:23:20.400 --> 01:23:22.289
<i>When I switch on
my television set</i>

1576
01:23:22.360 --> 01:23:24.601
<i>and I see one of them
reading our news to us.</i>

1577
01:23:27.320 --> 01:23:31.006
Mr. Irving, who is the
"them" and who is the "us"?

1578
01:23:31.960 --> 01:23:33.007
Trevor McDonald.

1579
01:23:33.240 --> 01:23:34.526
McDonald?

1580
01:23:34.600 --> 01:23:36.364
A newsreader, my Lord.

1581
01:23:36.800 --> 01:23:38.450
A black newsreader.

1582
01:23:39.000 --> 01:23:42.004
Well, in fact, this is
a stock speech I used to make.

1583
01:23:42.480 --> 01:23:43.686
I used to say,

1584
01:23:43.760 --> 01:23:44.841
"In the good old days,

1585
01:23:44.920 --> 01:23:46.922
"the announcer would
wear a dinner jacket.

1586
01:23:47.040 --> 01:23:48.600
"Now they've got
women reading the news,

1587
01:23:48.640 --> 01:23:49.641
"and they have..."

1588
01:23:49.720 --> 01:23:51.449
It's just part of
a general speech.

1589
01:23:51.960 --> 01:23:55.407
Yes. "It is our news and
they're reading it to me."

1590
01:23:56.400 --> 01:23:58.416
<i>If they could have their own news,
which they were reading to us,</i>

1591
01:23:58.440 --> 01:23:59.960
<i>I suppose it would be
very interesting.</i>

1592
01:24:00.800 --> 01:24:02.211
<i>But for the time being,</i>

1593
01:24:02.280 --> 01:24:04.487
<i>I'd be prepared
to accept that the BBC</i>

1594
01:24:04.600 --> 01:24:06.967
<i>should have a
dinner-jacketed gentleman</i>

1595
01:24:07.040 --> 01:24:08.536
<i>reading the important news...</i>

1596
01:24:08.560 --> 01:24:11.643
<i>followed by a lady reading
the less important news...</i>

1597
01:24:11.720 --> 01:24:14.056
<i>followed by Trevor McDonald
giving us all the latest news</i>

1598
01:24:14.080 --> 01:24:15.570
<i>on muggings and drug busts.</i>

1599
01:24:16.960 --> 01:24:19.850
"Rest lost in
loud laughter and applause."

1600
01:24:21.200 --> 01:24:22.964
Are you not appalled by that?

1601
01:24:23.360 --> 01:24:24.805
Not in the least.

1602
01:24:25.200 --> 01:24:26.281
This was a witty speech

1603
01:24:26.360 --> 01:24:28.727
delivered after dinner to an
audience at a private club.

1604
01:24:28.800 --> 01:24:30.529
You were talking to
a bunch of racists.

1605
01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:32.967
No, they were not. They were
perfectly ordinary guests...

1606
01:24:33.040 --> 01:24:35.247
Ordinary people? Then
why were there cheers?

1607
01:24:35.320 --> 01:24:37.368
Well, obviously
they liked the jokes.

1608
01:24:41.680 --> 01:24:43.842
Mr. Irving, I think
you might be advised

1609
01:24:43.920 --> 01:24:45.888
to have a look
at your own diary,

1610
01:24:46.400 --> 01:24:47.925
if you wouldn't mind.

1611
01:24:48.160 --> 01:24:50.606
Thirty-eight, please,
Mr. Irving, 38.

1612
01:24:50.680 --> 01:24:52.125
<i>Tab 10</i>

1613
01:24:52.680 --> 01:24:55.081
of the bundle K4.

1614
01:24:59.040 --> 01:25:01.930
"A quiet evening at home.
Jessica..."

1615
01:25:02.000 --> 01:25:03.001
Who is Jessica?

1616
01:25:04.360 --> 01:25:06.362
My little infant Child.

1617
01:25:06.440 --> 01:25:07.521
Yes.

1618
01:25:07.600 --> 01:25:10.365
She was nine months
old at the time.

1619
01:25:10.560 --> 01:25:13.803
Nine months old
in September 1994.

1620
01:25:15.600 --> 01:25:19.082
"Jessica is turning into
a fine little lady.

1621
01:25:20.040 --> 01:25:23.123
"She sits very upright
on an ordinary chair,

1622
01:25:23.200 --> 01:25:26.522
"a product of our regular
walks to the bank, lam sure.

1623
01:25:27.080 --> 01:25:31.165
"On those walks, we sing the
'binkety-bankety-bong' song.

1624
01:25:31.840 --> 01:25:33.968
"She stars in a poem

1625
01:25:34.040 --> 01:25:37.044
"when half-breed children
are wheeled past."

1626
01:25:38.480 --> 01:25:42.041
And then you go into italics.

1627
01:25:43.800 --> 01:25:45.723
<i>"I am a baby Aryan</i>

1628
01:25:46.240 --> 01:25:48.561
<i>"Not Jewish or sectarian</i>

1629
01:25:49.200 --> 01:25:51.771
<i>"I have no plans to marry</i>

1630
01:25:52.360 --> 01:25:54.328
<i>"An ape or Rastafarian."</i>

1631
01:25:56.480 --> 01:25:58.323
Racist, Mr. Irving?

1632
01:25:58.720 --> 01:26:00.529
Anti-Semitic, Mr. Irving?

1633
01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:02.131
I do not think so.

1634
01:26:02.200 --> 01:26:05.807
Teaching your little
child this kind of poison?

1635
01:26:06.560 --> 01:26:08.767
Do you think a nine-month-old
can understand words

1636
01:26:08.840 --> 01:26:10.729
spoken in English
or any other language?

1637
01:26:10.800 --> 01:26:12.723
This poor little child

1638
01:26:12.800 --> 01:26:15.246
has been taught a racist ditty

1639
01:26:15.360 --> 01:26:17.886
by her racist
and perverted father.

1640
01:26:18.640 --> 01:26:20.244
Have you ever read Edward Lear?

1641
01:26:20.360 --> 01:26:21.885
Hilaire Belloc?

1642
01:26:21.960 --> 01:26:25.248
They haven't brought a libel action, Mr.
Irving. You have.

1643
01:26:26.480 --> 01:26:28.482
You sued because you said that

1644
01:26:28.560 --> 01:26:31.723
we had called you a racist
and an extremist.

1645
01:26:32.760 --> 01:26:34.091
Yes,

1646
01:26:35.880 --> 01:26:37.405
but I'm not a racist.

1647
01:26:40.640 --> 01:26:41.846
Mr. Irving,

1648
01:26:43.000 --> 01:26:46.163
look at the words on the page.

1649
01:26:51.760 --> 01:26:53.250
Well done, Richard.

1650
01:26:53.320 --> 01:26:55.561
That's it.
Racism, anti-Semitism

1651
01:26:55.640 --> 01:26:57.051
and the guy's
a Holocaust denier.

1652
01:26:57.120 --> 01:26:59.248
I mean, we always said
it was a package deal.

1653
01:26:59.320 --> 01:27:02.244
We've got symptoms,
purpose, motive.

1654
01:27:02.360 --> 01:27:04.886
I really don't see
what else they'd want.

1655
01:27:04.960 --> 01:27:06.405
What did you think, Anthony?

1656
01:27:06.480 --> 01:27:07.480
What did I think?

1657
01:27:07.520 --> 01:27:09.409
I thought it was
the most boring morning

1658
01:27:09.480 --> 01:27:10.561
we've had in court so far.

1659
01:27:10.640 --> 01:27:12.608
My God, you love to be contrary.

1660
01:27:12.680 --> 01:27:14.887
Well, the man's an
anti-Semite and a racist.

1661
01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:16.360
It's like having
shit on your shoe.

1662
01:27:16.400 --> 01:27:18.209
You wipe it off.
You don't study it.

1663
01:27:18.280 --> 01:27:19.280
Thanks a lot.

1664
01:27:19.320 --> 01:27:21.000
You know, my whole
life's been studying it.

1665
01:27:22.160 --> 01:27:23.969
You could hardly accuse
me of being racist.

1666
01:27:24.040 --> 01:27:25.166
Among my domestic staff

1667
01:27:25.240 --> 01:27:27.242
I've had a Barbadian, a Punjabi,

1668
01:27:27.320 --> 01:27:29.084
Sri Lankan, a Pakistani.

1669
01:27:29.160 --> 01:27:31.296
And I can tell you, though, they
were all very attractive girls

1670
01:27:31.320 --> 01:27:32.481
with very nice breasts.

1671
01:27:32.840 --> 01:27:34.490
I'm sorry?
Can you say that again?

1672
01:27:36.760 --> 01:27:37.896
<i>You know what I'm gonna miss?</i>

1673
01:27:37.920 --> 01:27:39.809
- I'm gonna miss these lunches.
- Ah.

1674
01:27:39.880 --> 01:27:41.405
Me, too, Richard.
Me, too.

1675
01:27:41.480 --> 01:27:42.480
Me, too.

1676
01:27:42.520 --> 01:27:43.851
The excellent chutney.

1677
01:27:43.920 --> 01:27:46.366
It's something I never expected.

1678
01:27:46.440 --> 01:27:47.851
My parents made me take up law

1679
01:27:47.920 --> 01:27:49.684
and the first case I get,

1680
01:27:49.760 --> 01:27:51.205
I feel I'm making a difference.

1681
01:27:51.280 --> 01:27:53.328
It's a wonderful feeling.

1682
01:27:53.720 --> 01:27:55.085
I never, ever expected that.

1683
01:27:56.200 --> 01:27:58.851
I feel exactly
the same... Still.

1684
01:27:59.200 --> 01:28:01.806
- Cheers.
- Cheers.

1685
01:28:01.920 --> 01:28:06.164
All right, who wants any more
of this excellent vintage?

1686
01:28:06.240 --> 01:28:07.840
- Yes, please.
- Oh, no, not for me.

1687
01:28:08.520 --> 01:28:11.888
This trial has been both
long and hugely expensive,

1688
01:28:11.960 --> 01:28:14.884
costing an estimated three
million pounds or more

1689
01:28:14.960 --> 01:28:17.008
and running for
almost eight weeks.

1690
01:28:17.080 --> 01:28:18.491
As the trial enters
its eighth week,

1691
01:28:18.560 --> 01:28:20.767
some are saying it raises
freedom-of-speech issues.

1692
01:28:20.840 --> 01:28:22.256
Only the two opposing
speeches remain

1693
01:28:22.280 --> 01:28:24.123
before the judge,
Mr. Justice Gray,

1694
01:28:24.200 --> 01:28:26.806
retires for what we are told
will be at least four weeks

1695
01:28:26.880 --> 01:28:28.405
to consider his judgment.

1696
01:28:29.040 --> 01:28:31.964
My Lord, during this trial

1697
01:28:32.040 --> 01:28:34.168
we have heard from
Professor Evans and others

1698
01:28:34.240 --> 01:28:35.765
of at least 25

1699
01:28:35.840 --> 01:28:38.081
major falsifications of history.

1700
01:28:39.120 --> 01:28:40.770
"Well," says Mr. Irving,

1701
01:28:41.160 --> 01:28:43.640
"all historians
make mistakes."

1702
01:28:44.280 --> 01:28:45.486
But there is a difference

1703
01:28:45.560 --> 01:28:47.369
between negligence,

1704
01:28:47.440 --> 01:28:49.249
which is random in its effect,

1705
01:28:49.520 --> 01:28:53.525
and a deliberateness
which is far more one-sided.

1706
01:28:54.200 --> 01:28:56.487
All Mr. Irving's
little fictions,

1707
01:28:56.600 --> 01:28:59.080
all his tweaks of the evidence,

1708
01:28:59.160 --> 01:29:00.844
all tend in the same direction,

1709
01:29:00.920 --> 01:29:04.766
the exculpation of Adolf Hitler.

1710
01:29:05.080 --> 01:29:07.048
He is, to use an
analogy, like the waiter

1711
01:29:07.120 --> 01:29:09.327
who always gives
the wrong change.

1712
01:29:10.000 --> 01:29:11.047
If he is honest,

1713
01:29:11.120 --> 01:29:12.690
we may expect sometimes

1714
01:29:12.760 --> 01:29:14.728
his mistakes to
favor the customers,

1715
01:29:14.800 --> 01:29:16.484
sometimes himself.

1716
01:29:16.760 --> 01:29:20.924
But Mr. Irving is
the dishonest waiter.

1717
01:29:21.760 --> 01:29:24.286
All his mistakes
work in his favor.

1718
01:29:25.480 --> 01:29:28.450
How far, if at all,
Mr. Irving's anti-Semitism

1719
01:29:28.520 --> 01:29:31.364
is the cause
of his Hitler apology,

1720
01:29:31.440 --> 01:29:34.728
or vice versa, is unimportant.

1721
01:29:35.440 --> 01:29:38.728
Whether they are taken
together or individually

1722
01:29:38.800 --> 01:29:40.564
it is clear that
they have led him

1723
01:29:40.640 --> 01:29:41.880
to prostitute his reputation

1724
01:29:41.960 --> 01:29:44.281
as a serious historian

1725
01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:48.241
in favor of a bogus
rehabilitation of Adolf Hitler

1726
01:29:48.560 --> 01:29:49.891
and the dissemination

1727
01:29:49.960 --> 01:29:54.010
of virulent anti-Semitic
propaganda.

1728
01:29:55.640 --> 01:29:57.404
Yes, this is a question

1729
01:29:57.480 --> 01:30:00.086
I have to ask you,
Mr. Rampton.

1730
01:30:00.160 --> 01:30:01.446
Yes, by all means, my Lord.

1731
01:30:02.240 --> 01:30:03.765
My question is this,

1732
01:30:04.720 --> 01:30:07.007
if somebody
is anti-Semitic,

1733
01:30:07.080 --> 01:30:09.560
anti-Semitic
and extremist,

1734
01:30:09.960 --> 01:30:11.200
he is perfectly capable

1735
01:30:11.280 --> 01:30:15.444
of being honestly
anti-Semitic, yes?

1736
01:30:16.720 --> 01:30:19.405
He's holding those views
and expressing those views

1737
01:30:19.480 --> 01:30:21.721
because they are
indeed his views?

1738
01:30:23.200 --> 01:30:24.565
Well, yes.

1739
01:30:25.000 --> 01:30:28.607
And so it seems to me,
if it comes down to it,

1740
01:30:29.880 --> 01:30:31.769
that the anti-Semitism

1741
01:30:31.840 --> 01:30:33.922
is a completely
separate allegation

1742
01:30:34.160 --> 01:30:36.766
and has precious little bearing
on your broader charge

1743
01:30:36.840 --> 01:30:38.888
that he has
manipulated the data?

1744
01:30:39.720 --> 01:30:41.245
No, no, my Lord. No.

1745
01:30:41.320 --> 01:30:43.243
The whole endeavor
of the defense

1746
01:30:43.320 --> 01:30:45.243
has been to prove
that the two are connected.

1747
01:30:45.720 --> 01:30:48.087
But he might believe
what he is saying.

1748
01:30:49.040 --> 01:30:50.040
That is the point.

1749
01:30:50.080 --> 01:30:51.889
That is why it is so important.

1750
01:30:53.400 --> 01:30:56.802
My Lord, if we know that
Mr. Irving is an anti-Semite,

1751
01:30:56.880 --> 01:30:59.360
and if we know there is
no historical justification

1752
01:30:59.440 --> 01:31:00.771
for Holocaust denial,

1753
01:31:00.840 --> 01:31:04.287
then surely
it is no great stretch

1754
01:31:04.360 --> 01:31:06.203
to see that
the two are connected.

1755
01:31:13.880 --> 01:31:17.202
Yes. Thank you.

1756
01:31:18.240 --> 01:31:19.571
Carry on.

1757
01:31:23.640 --> 01:31:25.240
What the fuck just happened?

1758
01:31:28.400 --> 01:31:31.210
Anthony, what just happened?

1759
01:31:58.400 --> 01:32:00.767
<i>Well? How was it?</i>

1760
01:32:03.600 --> 01:32:05.762
<i>I'll tell you
what happened at the end.</i>

1761
01:32:07.360 --> 01:32:10.250
We summed up.
Irving summed up.

1762
01:32:14.120 --> 01:32:15.121
And?

1763
01:32:15.200 --> 01:32:16.536
And everyone kept saying,
this is all great,

1764
01:32:16.560 --> 01:32:19.928
<i>everything's gonna be fine.
And then suddenly this judge,</i>

1765
01:32:20.000 --> 01:32:23.049
<i>this unbelievable character
from Masterpiece Theatre...</i>

1766
01:32:23.120 --> 01:32:25.168
<i>Oh,</i> I <i>like Masterpiece
Theatre-</i> I <i>know.</i>

1767
01:32:25.240 --> 01:32:27.368
Anyway, at the last minute,
he looked up and he said,

1768
01:32:27.440 --> 01:32:30.887
"Well, you know, maybe
Irving actually believes it.

1769
01:32:30.960 --> 01:32:33.566
"He's an anti-Semite
and he believes it.

1770
01:32:33.640 --> 01:32:35.051
"You can't accuse
someone of lying

1771
01:32:35.120 --> 01:32:37.566
"if they genuinely believe
what they're saying."

1772
01:32:38.480 --> 01:32:39.845
That's crazy.
That's insane.

1773
01:32:39.920 --> 01:32:41.968
And that's when I thought,
"I've been suckered."

1774
01:32:42.320 --> 01:32:44.004
<i>I stared at this judge
for eight weeks</i>

1775
01:32:44.120 --> 01:32:45.456
<i>and I thought
I was looking at wisdom,</i>

1776
01:32:45.480 --> 01:32:48.165
<i>but maybe I was just
looking at prejudice.</i>

1777
01:32:52.160 --> 01:32:54.003
Well, what can you do?

1778
01:32:54.480 --> 01:32:57.165
I just wait.
Just wait.

1779
01:33:06.840 --> 01:33:09.002
And do they tell you
the result in advance?

1780
01:33:09.080 --> 01:33:11.128
No. But my lawyers get told.

1781
01:33:11.520 --> 01:33:14.205
What, they get told and they
can't tell you? You're kidding?

1782
01:33:14.280 --> 01:33:16.931
Yeah. They get the verdict
24 hours in advance.

1783
01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:19.128
To the minute. 09:00 a.m.
the day before,

1784
01:33:19.200 --> 01:33:21.282
to give 'em time
to prepare a response.

1785
01:33:21.360 --> 01:33:22.441
And what's worse,

1786
01:33:22.520 --> 01:33:24.682
yeah, Irving gets it, too.

1787
01:33:24.800 --> 01:33:26.723
Why? Because
he's his own lawyer.

1788
01:33:26.800 --> 01:33:28.564
So he's allowed it and I'm not.

1789
01:33:31.000 --> 01:33:33.256
<i>I think
this trial is sending a chill</i>

1790
01:33:33.280 --> 01:33:35.681
<i>through the community
of 20th century historians.</i>

1791
01:33:36.360 --> 01:33:37.536
<i>Which historian isn't thinking,</i>

1792
01:33:37.560 --> 01:33:39.927
<i>"Would my work survive
this kind of scrutiny?"</i>

1793
01:33:40.000 --> 01:33:42.924
<i>Show me one historian who has
not broken into a cold sweat</i>

1794
01:33:43.000 --> 01:33:45.128
<i>at the thought of undergoing
similar treatment.</i>

1795
01:33:51.880 --> 01:33:53.530
<i>When people glibly say,</i>

1796
01:33:53.840 --> 01:33:55.808
"Oh, if I'd have
been in Germany,

1797
01:33:55.880 --> 01:33:57.644
"I would never
have collaborated,

1798
01:33:57.720 --> 01:33:58.881
"I'd have resisted,"

1799
01:34:00.000 --> 01:34:01.889
I just wanna laugh.

1800
01:34:02.600 --> 01:34:04.648
Do you have any idea

1801
01:34:04.720 --> 01:34:07.690
how dangerous and
difficult it was?

1802
01:34:08.920 --> 01:34:13.005
Standing up to the
enemy was arduous

1803
01:34:13.080 --> 01:34:16.527
and uncertain and exhausting.

1804
01:34:19.160 --> 01:34:20.889
But they had to do it.

1805
01:34:22.920 --> 01:34:26.402
Only in hindsight that
things get called heroic.

1806
01:34:28.160 --> 01:34:30.640
At the time you're just afraid.

1807
01:34:33.920 --> 01:34:36.446
Afraid of how things
will turn out.

1808
01:34:45.120 --> 01:34:46.406
Deborah Lipstadt.

1809
01:34:46.880 --> 01:34:48.325
Ah, good. There you are.

1810
01:34:48.520 --> 01:34:49.681
Anthony.

1811
01:34:49.760 --> 01:34:52.491
<i>Yeah. Just to say we've been told
to expect the verdict on Tuesday.</i>

1812
01:34:52.560 --> 01:34:55.370
On Tuesday?
Are you sure?

1813
01:34:55.440 --> 01:34:57.960
You know, I don't think they'd
have said it unless it were true.

1814
01:34:58.040 --> 01:34:59.256
I've been wondering if we could

1815
01:34:59.280 --> 01:35:01.044
work out some kind of code.

1816
01:35:01.120 --> 01:35:03.536
<i>Like I call and say, "How's the
weather?" and you say, "Good."</i>

1817
01:35:03.560 --> 01:35:05.085
<i>Meaning...
Yeah, yeah, I get it.</i>

1818
01:35:05.160 --> 01:35:07.970
Or you say the weather's bad
and that would mean...

1819
01:35:08.040 --> 01:35:09.769
Only, of course,
I'd be disbarred.

1820
01:35:09.840 --> 01:35:11.960
I'd never be allowed to
practice law in England again.

1821
01:35:12.440 --> 01:35:15.330
Oh, well, there'd be an upside.

1822
01:35:15.880 --> 01:35:16.881
Ah.

1823
01:35:51.840 --> 01:35:53.126
Yes?

1824
01:35:54.880 --> 01:35:56.211
<i>That one.</i>

1825
01:36:00.080 --> 01:36:01.286
Deborah.

1826
01:36:03.680 --> 01:36:04.680
Well?

1827
01:36:14.280 --> 01:36:16.328
Out of the way,
please. Out of the way.

1828
01:36:16.400 --> 01:36:18.129
Guilty! Filthy Jew!

1829
01:36:18.640 --> 01:36:20.165
Jewish scum!

1830
01:36:34.480 --> 01:36:35.481
Shame on you!

1831
01:36:41.040 --> 01:36:43.771
Shame on you, Nazi lover!

1832
01:36:46.800 --> 01:36:50.805
David! David! David!

1833
01:37:05.440 --> 01:37:06.441
Oh.

1834
01:37:11.600 --> 01:37:13.125
- My Lord.
- Hmm?

1835
01:37:25.440 --> 01:37:27.681
Thank you, Jay.
One per person. Thank you.

1836
01:37:27.760 --> 01:37:28.921
Ladies first, I think.

1837
01:37:29.000 --> 01:37:30.365
There you go. Thank you.

1838
01:37:30.440 --> 01:37:32.044
One per person.
Thank you. I'll do it.

1839
01:37:32.120 --> 01:37:35.169
<i>This massive
334-page document,</i>

1840
01:37:35.240 --> 01:37:37.846
<i>which does not yet disclose
the final verdict,</i>

1841
01:37:37.920 --> 01:37:39.922
is studiously
even-handed.

1842
01:37:40.040 --> 01:37:42.168
It is difficult to
say on which side

1843
01:37:42.240 --> 01:37:44.402
Mr. Justice Gray's
decision will land.

1844
01:37:44.480 --> 01:37:46.776
It praises Irving's
skill <i>as</i> a military historian,

1845
01:37:46.800 --> 01:37:49.371
while at the same time
drawing attention to flaws

1846
01:37:49.440 --> 01:37:51.249
in some of his reasoning.

1847
01:38:06.400 --> 01:38:07.890
Court rise.

1848
01:38:22.240 --> 01:38:25.562
<i>David Irving
v. Penguin Books Limited</i>

1849
01:38:25.640 --> 01:38:27.369
<i>and Deborah Lipstadt.</i>

1850
01:38:29.480 --> 01:38:31.642
I shall read my judgment.

1851
01:38:42.840 --> 01:38:45.207
<i>It appears to me
that the correct</i>

1852
01:38:45.280 --> 01:38:47.851
<i>and inevitable inference must be</i>

1853
01:38:47.920 --> 01:38:50.924
that the falsification of
the historical record

1854
01:38:51.000 --> 01:38:55.688
was deliberate and that Irving was
motivated by a desire to present events

1855
01:38:55.760 --> 01:38:59.287
in a manner consistent with
his own ideological beliefs,

1856
01:38:59.360 --> 01:39:01.886
even if that involved distortion

1857
01:39:01.960 --> 01:39:05.089
and manipulation
of historical evidence.

1858
01:39:06.360 --> 01:39:08.010
In the result, therefore,

1859
01:39:08.080 --> 01:39:11.687
the defense of
justification, succeeds.

1860
01:39:12.120 --> 01:39:15.329
The court finds
for the defendants.

1861
01:39:16.520 --> 01:39:18.010
Court rise.

1862
01:39:26.720 --> 01:39:29.326
- I can't believe it!
- It's true.

1863
01:39:29.440 --> 01:39:30.885
Well done. Well done.

1864
01:39:30.960 --> 01:39:32.530
Well done.

1865
01:39:35.520 --> 01:39:36.681
<i>Mazel tov!</i>

1866
01:39:36.760 --> 01:39:38.091
You've been brilliant.
<i>Mazel tov!</i>

1867
01:39:38.200 --> 01:39:39.486
You didn't let me say anything.

1868
01:39:39.560 --> 01:39:40.766
I didn't say a thing.

1869
01:39:40.880 --> 01:39:42.325
Well, nor did I.
Think how I feel.

1870
01:39:42.400 --> 01:39:44.482
It's not true.
It's not true, Deborah.

1871
01:39:44.560 --> 01:39:45.641
It was your book.

1872
01:39:45.720 --> 01:39:47.245
Your book held up
in every aspect.

1873
01:39:47.320 --> 01:39:48.970
Every aspect. Every detail.

1874
01:39:49.040 --> 01:39:50.883
We defended it.
But it was the book.

1875
01:39:50.960 --> 01:39:52.536
- I
- know, I know, I know...

1876
01:39:53.920 --> 01:39:56.536
- Thank you for all your hard work.
- You are so welcome.

1877
01:39:56.560 --> 01:39:57.846
It was like a dream job.

1878
01:39:57.920 --> 01:40:00.844
Well done. Well done.

1879
01:40:01.960 --> 01:40:04.611
Laura. Genius!

1880
01:40:06.600 --> 01:40:08.336
<i>This has been
called one of the most</i>

1881
01:40:08.360 --> 01:40:10.203
<i>crushing libel
judgments in history.</i>

1882
01:40:10.280 --> 01:40:11.656
<i>The judge called Mr. Irving</i>

1883
01:40:11.680 --> 01:40:13.409
<i>an anti-Semite, a racist,</i>

1884
01:40:13.480 --> 01:40:15.403
<i>and a distorter of history.</i>

1885
01:40:15.880 --> 01:40:18.042
Can you tell us how you're
feeling at this time?

1886
01:40:18.120 --> 01:40:20.088
I feel terrific.
This is a wonderful day.

1887
01:40:20.200 --> 01:40:21.440
A wonderful day for everyone.

1888
01:40:21.520 --> 01:40:24.320
Deborah. Deborah, how
do you feel about today's verdict?

1889
01:40:25.680 --> 01:40:27.569
Now you can speak.

1890
01:40:27.640 --> 01:40:28.971
Great.

1891
01:40:29.040 --> 01:40:30.644
Can you expand at all on that?

1892
01:40:30.760 --> 01:40:34.685
Come on. Come on...
Come to the press conference!

1893
01:40:35.160 --> 01:40:37.640
<i>We saw this
as a free-speech issue.</i>

1894
01:40:37.760 --> 01:40:39.171
<i>Penguin defended
D.H. Lawrence.</i>

1895
01:40:39.240 --> 01:40:40.605
We defended Salman Rushdie.

1896
01:40:40.720 --> 01:40:41.801
It was inconceivable

1897
01:40:41.880 --> 01:40:43.370
we wouldn't defend
Deborah Lipstadt.

1898
01:40:43.440 --> 01:40:44.771
She's here. She's here.

1899
01:40:49.160 --> 01:40:52.528
Miss Lipstadt? Miss Lipstadt?

1900
01:40:52.600 --> 01:40:53.806
Deborah?

1901
01:40:56.120 --> 01:40:58.088
Can I ask, do you
have any regrets

1902
01:40:58.160 --> 01:40:59.571
about bringing the case?

1903
01:40:59.640 --> 01:41:01.280
I don't know how to say
this often enough,

1904
01:41:01.320 --> 01:41:02.810
I didn't bring the case.

1905
01:41:02.880 --> 01:41:04.564
Mr. Irving did.

1906
01:41:04.640 --> 01:41:06.642
Although I'm not
sure he realized

1907
01:41:06.720 --> 01:41:09.200
when he agreed to a trial
by a single judge,

1908
01:41:09.280 --> 01:41:10.760
that it would mean
a written judgment.

1909
01:41:10.800 --> 01:41:14.088
This judgment is gonna
stand against him forever.

1910
01:41:14.640 --> 01:41:16.856
Now, some people are saying
that the result of this trial

1911
01:41:16.880 --> 01:41:18.803
will threaten free speech.

1912
01:41:18.880 --> 01:41:20.370
I don't accept that.

1913
01:41:20.440 --> 01:41:22.442
I'm not attacking free speech.

1914
01:41:22.520 --> 01:41:25.091
On the contrary,
I've been defending it

1915
01:41:25.160 --> 01:41:27.083
against someone
who wanted to abuse it.

1916
01:41:27.480 --> 01:41:30.484
Freedom of speech means you
can say whatever you want.

1917
01:41:30.560 --> 01:41:32.562
What you can't do is lie,

1918
01:41:32.640 --> 01:41:35.450
and then expect not to be
held accountable for it.

1919
01:41:35.760 --> 01:41:38.001
Not all opinions are equal

1920
01:41:38.680 --> 01:41:39.886
and some things happen,

1921
01:41:40.720 --> 01:41:42.290
just like we say they do.

1922
01:41:42.640 --> 01:41:43.721
Slavery happened.

1923
01:41:43.800 --> 01:41:45.689
The Black Death happened.

1924
01:41:46.040 --> 01:41:47.371
The Earth is round.

1925
01:41:47.440 --> 01:41:50.284
The ice caps are melting
and Elvis is not alive.

1926
01:41:50.520 --> 01:41:52.966
Miss Lipstadt?

1927
01:41:53.320 --> 01:41:55.641
You've conducted
yourself with dignity

1928
01:41:55.720 --> 01:41:56.767
throughout the trial.

1929
01:41:56.880 --> 01:41:59.360
Thank you. Uh, but I
know what that means.

1930
01:41:59.440 --> 01:42:02.011
That's code in England
for "I've shut up,"

1931
01:42:02.080 --> 01:42:04.731
and I don't promise to shut
up in the future.

1932
01:42:05.360 --> 01:42:07.176
Miss Lipstadt,
how convinced were you

1933
01:42:07.200 --> 01:42:09.851
that this trial was going to
have a good outcome for you?

1934
01:42:10.400 --> 01:42:14.530
Um, well, before
I came to London,

1935
01:42:14.600 --> 01:42:17.649
I was definitely not convinced
that a court of law

1936
01:42:17.720 --> 01:42:20.564
was a good place to
investigate historical truth.

1937
01:42:21.720 --> 01:42:22.721
But...

1938
01:42:23.560 --> 01:42:27.645
I underestimated
the value of a team.

1939
01:42:28.320 --> 01:42:29.924
Of real teamwork.

1940
01:42:30.000 --> 01:42:32.924
And it turns out
it's not a bad place.

1941
01:42:33.800 --> 01:42:37.327
As long as you have great
lawyers with great passion.

1942
01:42:37.400 --> 01:42:41.564
And, uh, my God, did I
have great lawyers.

1943
01:42:46.240 --> 01:42:48.016
Miss Lipstadt, if you could say

1944
01:42:48.040 --> 01:42:50.407
something now to David Irving,

1945
01:42:50.480 --> 01:42:51.481
what would you say?

1946
01:42:52.600 --> 01:42:55.171
I wouldn't say anything
to David Irving.

1947
01:42:55.240 --> 01:42:58.642
I would say something to the
survivors and to the murdered.

1948
01:42:58.720 --> 01:43:00.370
And I would say...

1949
01:43:03.120 --> 01:43:04.770
"You were remembered.

1950
01:43:05.440 --> 01:43:08.523
"The voice of
suffering was heard."

1951
01:43:18.920 --> 01:43:20.922
You really are
quite good at this.

1952
01:43:24.760 --> 01:43:25.966
Thank you.

1953
01:43:30.280 --> 01:43:33.204
<i>I think if you
look at the judgment closely,</i>

1954
01:43:33.280 --> 01:43:36.124
<i>you'll see there are all sorts
of things there in my favor.</i>

1955
01:43:36.720 --> 01:43:38.802
<i>You're not seriously suggesting</i>

1956
01:43:38.880 --> 01:43:41.087
<i>that this judgment supports you?</i>

1957
01:43:41.160 --> 01:43:44.130
<i>Well, plainly I ran
rings round the defense.</i>

1958
01:43:44.200 --> 01:43:47.249
<i>My only regret is I didn't use
a mallet of sufficient caliber</i>

1959
01:43:47.320 --> 01:43:50.051
<i>to ram my case into
the thick skull of the judge.</i>

1960
01:43:50.160 --> 01:43:52.970
<i>Mr. Irving,
what people want to know</i>

1961
01:43:53.080 --> 01:43:55.924
<i>is whether, on the basis
of this judgment,</i>

1962
01:43:56.040 --> 01:43:59.442
<i>you will now stop
denying the Holocaust.</i>

1963
01:44:02.440 --> 01:44:05.523
<i>Me? Stop? Good Lord, no.</i>

1964
01:44:05.960 --> 01:44:07.576
<i>Despite the fact that</i>

1965
01:44:07.600 --> 01:44:09.682
<i>the judge says,
"It appears to me..."</i>

1966
01:44:09.760 --> 01:44:11.808
<i>Hello?</i>
Deborah?

1967
01:44:12.240 --> 01:44:13.810
He seems to be saying he won.

1968
01:44:13.880 --> 01:44:17.043
I know. He used
to be a Holocaust denier,

1969
01:44:17.120 --> 01:44:18.256
<i>and now he's a verdict denier.</i>

1970
01:44:18.280 --> 01:44:19.936
<i>The fact that she
didn't even dare to appear</i>

1971
01:44:19.960 --> 01:44:21.976
<i>tells you everything you need
to know about Miss Lipstadt.</i>

1972
01:44:22.000 --> 01:44:23.161
Let's just turn him off.

1973
01:44:23.240 --> 01:44:24.924
<i>I don't think
her Brooklyn accent</i>

1974
01:44:25.000 --> 01:44:26.650
<i>would have endeared
her to the court.</i>

1975
01:44:26.920 --> 01:44:28.524
It's Queens.

1975
01:44:29.305 --> 01:44:35.801
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