WEBVTT

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This programme contains some strong language

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CHEERING

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MICHAEL LAUGHS

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Woo!

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This is really true.

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A lot of people say, "You just made it up to have something to say."

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But one day our television broke down

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and we didn't have anything, really, to do,

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like in the morning times.

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So, what we started doing, we started singing,

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my mother, my brothers,

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and we started making harmony.

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Next thing we know, we were singing in talent shows

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and winning awards and trophies.

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That's how it got started.

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# You went to school to learn, girl

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# Things you never, never knew before

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# Like I before E except after C

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# And why two plus two makes four

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# Na-na-na

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- # I'm gonna teach you
- Teach you, teach you

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- # All about love, yeah
- All about love

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# Sit yourself down, take a seat

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# All you gotta do is repeat after me

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# A, B, C

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# Easy as one, two, three

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# Simple as do re mi

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# A, B, C

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- # One, two, three
- Baby, you and me, girl. #

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'Hey, hey, hey, stop the film!

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'Hey, stop the film, please!

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'Hey, stop the film! Come on!

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CHEERING 'Thank you.'

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They want to hear I Want You Back and ABC and The Love You Save...

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- Right.
- ..and Dancing Machine, Sugar Daddy, I'll Be There,

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Got To Be There, Rockin' Robin.

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- You want to hear Daddy's Home?
- CHEERING

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Do you want to hear all the old stuff?

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The number one reason I don't want to do the old stuff,

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number one - it's old! OK?

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Number two - the choreography is old!

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Jackie's old!

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CHEERING

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- Wait a minute, Michael.
- Do you care about that?

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Do you care?

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I'll tell you what...

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..I'll do the old stuff for you, OK?

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CHEERING

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But I'm doing it for you, I'm not doing it for them.

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I'm doing it for you!

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MUSIC: I Want You Back by The Jackson 5

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The Venom - $5 million GTD Poker Tourney
Download AmericasCardroom.com

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# When I had you to myself I didn't want you around

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# Those pretty faces always made you stand out in a crowd... #

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Their first four songs broke historical records

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because they all went to number one, the very first four songs

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they ever recorded,

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- which was I Want You Back...
- ABC, The Love You Save...

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..and I'll Be There.

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What happened after that was we went from being able to go anywhere,

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get a hamburger, go to a movie, you know, go shopping,

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to being able to go nowhere.

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They became so successful so quickly

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that none of us were prepared for it.

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# Ooh, ooh, baby

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- # I want you back
- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

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# I want you back... #

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He used to sing songs with a lot of feeling and he would sing them

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with a lot of feeling and a lot of moving

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like he had been here before.

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Like he had lived before.

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Vocally, he was just leaps and bounds ahead of

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what anybody could teach him.

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He came here knowing that stuff.

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It was in his DNA.

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I discovered that Michael was very talented

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when he was just about two or three years old.

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Michael had a lot of rhythm and he loved to dance.

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I think he was born dancing.

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Michael told me, way back, he said, "Steve, I'm not going to be poor."

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Imagine 11 kids living in a two-bedroom house in Gary, Indiana.

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And Gary, Indiana is no Beverly Hills.

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It was hard.

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When you have all those kids like I had

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and kids, you know, they like to eat,

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so when they holler, they want some food,

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you got to put something in their hand.

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And I kept food on the table, plenty food spare.

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Joseph had done a remarkable job creating the group.

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I can remember how much it meant to all of them,

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but particularly Michael, to make it.

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I would say, to this day, Motown was the greatest school for me.

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Really, it was the best.

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I learned how to cut a track as well as producing.

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I've learned so many things about writing.

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Pretty much like a college that taught us everything

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about songwriting and producing and everything.

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And we learned so much about lyrical content,

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how to produce songs and just being a great artist.

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They had the best songwriters and artists in the world.

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Here we are in Chicago.

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You see here members of The Temptations.

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Down here on the bottom is little Michael with his Afro

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and I'm right next to him.

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That's me, y'all.

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What Michael learned is to be great

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you had to be persistent.

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You had to work. He got to watch people

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like Diana Ross,

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Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder...

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The Temptations, Smokey Robinson.

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All these wonderful guys

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that we idolised.

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And these were legends in the music industry

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that he was able to observe up close in the studio

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in their element.

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I got my degree from Motown university.

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It was really an atmosphere of competition.

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Competition breeds champions, but you can't let the competition

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overcome the love.

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And so it was all built on love, and Michael was full of love.

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And the atmosphere just suited him very well.

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We learned so much being with all those great songwriters

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and producers.

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And at the time when it's taking place, you don't realise that.

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We were kids ourselves, I didn't know how to do this.

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And we were learning as we went together.

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# Stop! Na-na-na-na

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# You'd better save it

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# Stop, stop, stop You'd better save it

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# When we played tag in grade school

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# You want to be It

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# But chasing boys was just a fad

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# You crossed your heart you'd quit. #

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Yes, it's the same nerve The Beatles touched lo these many years ago.

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Only this time, it's a group of black teenagers

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fronted by an 11-year-old soul brother.

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# Darling, take it slow

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# Or some day you'll be all alone. #

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It was so intense, this fan worship.

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You have to understand that all the kids who were

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responding to The Jackson 5,

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hadn't had a Mickey Mouse Club with kids like them on camera.

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They represented the first youth group of our contemporary times

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for all these kids to identify with,

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and, initially, they were all the black kids.

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The beginning is, you know, when I first saw him

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and that's the reason why I'm here.

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That's what motivated me

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and wanted me to do whatever it is that I'm doing right now.

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You know, he was everything that...

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That I aspired to be.

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Those boys, they practise most of the time

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because one of the kids who's out there...

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running the streets and playing, he was in there

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trying to get a song down or something.

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He wanted to be the best at everything he ever did.

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They were not at all concerned about the working.

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We worked all day and all night.

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I mean, this kid, at nine,

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meant serious business.

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I mean, this kid meant serious, serious business.

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I mean, he was not kidding!

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He questioned Nick and I

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about our early Motown songs.

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He always wanted to know, how did you come up with this idea?

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What was this? What made you say that?

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You know, songs like Ain't Nothing Like The Real Thing.

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He was a real student.

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I was fascinated by the fact that he had this kind of commitment

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and this kind of dedication and was inquisitive about it.

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He was always watching.

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He would always be watching.

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Well, who else do you think makes

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the stage come to real life

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besides me and Ed Sullivan?

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LAUGHTER

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Hold it, hold it, hold it.

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You're beginning to steam me, kid. You understand that?

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Best experience in the world.

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Just sitting in the wings and learning.

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Aw. I ate that up.

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And he would sit with me at mixing sessions,

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because I did a lot of mixing.

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He would sit there for hours and hours.

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I would tell somebody, one of my assistants, I'd say,

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"My back is turned, but I know Michael is staring at me."

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The thing I loved about Motown

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was that Berry Gordy,

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if he didn't like a song, he'd go in the studio and cut one himself.

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- Yeah.
- And so Berry Gordy, in my opinion, is probably

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the greatest record man there ever was.

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Berry was wonderful with taking a song

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and leaning it to the right direction,

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giving it the right flavours, to make it a hit.

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He knew just what it takes, and everybody can't do that.

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Ben is coming...

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And this time, he's not alone.

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And then came Ben, which was a soundtrack to a movie about rats.

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Wherever we tour, the whole room demand to hear it.

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We can't get off stage.

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People start chanting for Ben.

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This performance of Ben at the Academy Awards in 1973

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was the first time that Michael really stepped out on his own.

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The first nominated song is Ben from the picture Ben.

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It'll be sung by a young man whose talent is mature,

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but whose age suggests that maybe he shouldn't even be up this late.

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# Ben, the two of us need look no more

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# We both found what we were looking for

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# With a friend to call my own... #

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He was part of your whole life.

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It was crazy, man!

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When you were a little kid

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with all the Jackson 5 songs

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and when you're a little older then through your puberty,

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your adolescence.

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# Ben, you're always running here and there

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And then when you go to college, and then...

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He was always around, defining a part of your life.

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There's so many steps in between that first day and Off The Wall.

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For me, the most heartbreaking was when they left Motown.

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# Dancing, dancing, dancing

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# She's a dancing machine

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# Aw, babe

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# Move it, baby

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# Automatic systematic

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# Full of colour, self-contained

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# Tuned and gentle to your vibes... #

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They came in as bubble-gum.

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No-one ever graduates from being a cute kid group

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to being taken seriously.

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There's no child singer that you could point to,

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besides Michael Jackson, that went from being really big

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to the biggest pop star ever.

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Thank God for Dancing Machine.

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What they were observing at the time at Motown,

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what The Jacksons were observing, were a lot of artists

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having creative freedom.

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# Dancing, dancing, dancing machine

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# Watch her get down Watch her get down. #

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We wanted to write, we wanted to produce ourselves

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and our contract at Motown didn't let us do that.

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And plus our contract was expiring at the time

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and it was time to make a new change.

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Two guys named Ron Alexenburg

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and Steve Popovich, OK?

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And they were with Epic, one was head of promotion,

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one was head of A&R, and they came to me and said,

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"We're going to sign The Jacksons."

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You know, as a group.

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It all started at the Warwick Hotel and there's nothing but kids

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around the whole hotel. I went to the doorman and said,

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"What's going on here?" And he said, "The Jackson 5 are here!"

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It gave me the opportunity to go, just the way I am,

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into the lobby, I picked up the house phone and I called and I said,

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"Michael Jackson, please" and they rang right through to room 805

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and he came downstairs with his dad. I looked at him and said,

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"What do you want to do?" and he said, "Some day I'd like to

259
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:14.040
"do my own music." I said, "Really? What about now?"

260
00:12:14.040 --> 00:12:16.640
The group wanted to leave Motown.

261
00:12:16.640 --> 00:12:18.320
- Joseph...
- My name's Joe Jackson.

262
00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:20.600
..thought that he wanted to bring them and take them

263
00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:23.320
to a whole other level that Motown just couldn't do.

264
00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:25.800
But I was told not to sign him and I was told that

265
00:12:25.800 --> 00:12:27.160
they were a cartoon act.

266
00:12:27.160 --> 00:12:29.600
And I went to Walter Yetnikoff who was my boss and I said,

267
00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:31.800
"Hold on. The Jacksons belong on this label.

268
00:12:31.800 --> 00:12:34.640
"We call ourselves "the family of music", this is a family.

269
00:12:34.640 --> 00:12:36.360
"I want to sign them."

270
00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:39.040
I said, "Well, I don't know how many records they've sold."

271
00:12:39.040 --> 00:12:41.680
So, I went to hear at the Westbury Music Fair.

272
00:12:41.680 --> 00:12:43.760
Michael was 15 years old at the time.

273
00:12:43.760 --> 00:12:48.240
He's singing a song to a dead rat, which you remember, named Ben, OK?

274
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:50.680
And I come back and I said to these guys, "Are you crazy?

275
00:12:50.680 --> 00:12:52.640
"You want to give them 3,500,000?"

276
00:12:52.640 --> 00:12:55.920
I said, "Walter, please. You're new in your job

277
00:12:55.920 --> 00:12:58.480
"and you're really not qualified to judge this."

278
00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:01.280
I was in the job, like, three weeks when that happened.

279
00:13:01.280 --> 00:13:03.240
He was like, "OK, I'll go along with you guys.

280
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.040
"You seem to know what you're doing."

281
00:13:05.040 --> 00:13:07.000
I said, "You know, you're probably right."

282
00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:09.320
That was my brilliant move in signing The Jacksons.

283
00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.680
# Like Ben

284
00:13:13.680 --> 00:13:16.400
# Like Ben

285
00:13:16.400 --> 00:13:18.920
# Like Ben. #

286
00:13:18.920 --> 00:13:21.160
APPLAUSE

287
00:13:23.680 --> 00:13:27.720
The most tense time of life, for me,

288
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:30.920
was the changing from Motown

289
00:13:30.920 --> 00:13:32.720
to CBS.

290
00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:34.120
I was in a whole other world.

291
00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:36.720
I was... Gosh.

292
00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:38.440
I didn't know what was happening.

293
00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:42.720
Understanding the challenge of a child prodigy having to make

294
00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:46.320
a transition and now being a serious, serious artist

295
00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:49.600
and how much courage it takes to actually step outside of that

296
00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:51.640
and to come with a new sound,

297
00:13:51.640 --> 00:13:54.080
that can be pretty damn scary.

298
00:13:54.080 --> 00:13:57.840
Kind of a critical decision that The Jackson 5 with their father,

299
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.600
Joe Jackson, made to leave Motown.

300
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:05.360
And it resulted in a lawsuit out of which came a name change

301
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:06.640
to The Jacksons.

302
00:14:06.640 --> 00:14:08.840
I was told I couldn't use the name "Jackson 5"

303
00:14:08.840 --> 00:14:11.040
and I said, "It's OK, we'll call them The Jacksons."

304
00:14:11.040 --> 00:14:12.920
Berry Gordy would not let that name go.

305
00:14:12.920 --> 00:14:15.840
We were all sad that he was gone...

306
00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:17.560
Jermaine stayed.

307
00:14:17.560 --> 00:14:20.280
Jermaine Jackson was married to the daughter

308
00:14:20.280 --> 00:14:24.040
of Berry Gordy, so probably not a good idea for him to leave Motown

309
00:14:24.040 --> 00:14:25.560
with the rest of his family.

310
00:14:25.560 --> 00:14:27.680
We respect Jermaine's decision because that was

311
00:14:27.680 --> 00:14:29.760
a very difficult decision for him to make

312
00:14:29.760 --> 00:14:31.720
and I respect him for that because

313
00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:34.520
he did what he wants to do. I want people to do what they want to do.

314
00:14:34.520 --> 00:14:37.280
Don't do what I want you to do, do what you feel that's best for you.

315
00:14:37.280 --> 00:14:40.400
There's so much going on, so much tension.

316
00:14:40.400 --> 00:14:42.960
I wasn't sure what was going to happen.

317
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:46.280
I asked Michael, "What's going to happen when people ask you,

318
00:14:46.280 --> 00:14:48.280
"Why are you leaving Motown?" and he said,

319
00:14:48.280 --> 00:14:50.800
"Because everything is possible with you at Epic Records"

320
00:14:50.800 --> 00:14:52.640
and there was nothing more to be said.

321
00:14:52.640 --> 00:14:55.560
And with Columbia Records, we want to sell twice as many records.

322
00:14:55.560 --> 00:14:58.080
We want to do the things that we've dreamed of.

323
00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.640
It was not a popular signing in the business,

324
00:15:00.640 --> 00:15:02.160
nor was it in the building.

325
00:15:03.240 --> 00:15:04.520
"Ron's lost his mind."

326
00:15:04.520 --> 00:15:06.720
You know, "The Jacksons have had it, they're done."

327
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:09.840
The problem at that time is they had had a cartoon series,

328
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:12.840
and their credibility was questionable.

329
00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.480
# 2, 4, 6, 8, who do you appreciate

330
00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:17.360
# Please be my pride and joy

331
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:19.600
# 2, 4, 6, 8, who do you appreciate

332
00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:22.520
# I wanna be your lover boy... #

333
00:15:22.520 --> 00:15:24.200
I may be a little fella

334
00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.760
But my heart's as big as Texas

335
00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:28.920
I have all the love a man can give

336
00:15:28.920 --> 00:15:30.680
And maybe a little bit extra.

337
00:15:30.680 --> 00:15:33.880
I'm going to give them as much credibility as I possibly can.

338
00:15:33.880 --> 00:15:35.400
We got on a train to Philadelphia,

339
00:15:35.400 --> 00:15:37.760
Gamble and Huff opened their drawer full of hits...

340
00:15:37.760 --> 00:15:40.840
When you think of disco, and when you think of quality disco,

341
00:15:40.840 --> 00:15:42.520
you came to Philadelphia.

342
00:15:42.520 --> 00:15:45.520
Two of the people that Michael Jackson learned from immensely

343
00:15:45.520 --> 00:15:48.720
were Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, who were the creators

344
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:51.000
and entrepreneurs behind Philly International.

345
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:53.160
The proprietors of the disco sound.

346
00:15:53.160 --> 00:15:57.840
They had always wanted to write and produce their own records,

347
00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.160
you know what I mean, and be a part of the process.

348
00:16:01.160 --> 00:16:03.520
And that's pretty much what Philly International was,

349
00:16:03.520 --> 00:16:07.440
it was a place where you had a lot of creative freedom.

350
00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:10.720
They wrote tons of hits, I mean, tons, tons of hits.

351
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:13.440
We had Harold Melvin & The Blue Notes, we had we had the O'Jays...

352
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:14.600
Look to the roster!

353
00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:16.400
We had Patti LaBelle...

354
00:16:16.400 --> 00:16:19.440
- Archie Bell & The Drells...
- Phyllis Hyman...
- Billy Paul...

355
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.880
Lou Rawls, we had Teddy Pendergrass...

356
00:16:21.880 --> 00:16:23.520
- Three Degrees.
- Three Degrees...

357
00:16:23.520 --> 00:16:26.960
We had to style these songs to fit these guys' voices.

358
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.080
- And that's what great producers do, right?
- Sure.

359
00:16:29.080 --> 00:16:32.000
We're right...almost in the middle of a recording session with

360
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:36.720
the Jacksons, and guess who is producing their brand-new album?

361
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.960
- Gamble and Huff.
- That's right.

362
00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.120
And why would you guys come all the way in from California

363
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:45.520
to cut some sides in an album in Philadelphia?

364
00:16:45.520 --> 00:16:48.240
Because, er...the Gamble and Huff organisation is here,

365
00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:52.560
and they're two of the best producers in the world.

366
00:16:52.560 --> 00:16:55.040
Working with Gamble and Huff, they do it at a quicker pace -

367
00:16:55.040 --> 00:16:56.320
three weeks to make a record.

368
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.720
I didn't know you could make a record in three weeks.

369
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.800
They were the Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis of the '70s.

370
00:17:01.800 --> 00:17:03.560
And Michael always says he learned a lot

371
00:17:03.560 --> 00:17:06.880
about the songwriting process from Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff.

372
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:09.560
How to structure a song, how to create great arrangements.

373
00:17:09.560 --> 00:17:13.520
The Jacksons came to Philadelphia for two years to record two records,

374
00:17:13.520 --> 00:17:16.320
The Jacksons and Goin' Places.

375
00:17:16.320 --> 00:17:20.040
We try to write songs that people do all the time,

376
00:17:20.040 --> 00:17:22.000
how people say things all the time.

377
00:17:22.000 --> 00:17:24.040
# Enjoy yourself, enjoy yourself

378
00:17:24.040 --> 00:17:25.920
# Enjoy yourself for me... #

379
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.520
People say that all the time, you know, "Enjoy yourself."

380
00:17:28.520 --> 00:17:30.800
# You've got to enjoy yourself...

381
00:17:31.760 --> 00:17:33.040
# Sayin'

382
00:17:33.040 --> 00:17:34.240
# Enjoy yourself

383
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:35.440
# Enjoy yourself

384
00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:36.640
# Get down, get down

385
00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:37.680
# Get on down

386
00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:38.840
# Enjoy yourself

387
00:17:38.840 --> 00:17:39.880
# Enjoy yourself

388
00:17:39.880 --> 00:17:40.960
# Get down, get down

389
00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:42.200
# Get on down

390
00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:43.240
# Enjoy yourself

391
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.280
# Enjoy yourself

392
00:17:44.280 --> 00:17:45.560
# Get down, get down

393
00:17:45.560 --> 00:17:46.600
# Let's get on down

394
00:17:46.600 --> 00:17:47.640
# Enjoy yourself

395
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:48.840
# Enjoy yourself

396
00:17:48.840 --> 00:17:50.000
# Get down, get down

397
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:51.400
# Just get on down

398
00:18:00.760 --> 00:18:01.960
- # Come on
- Come on

399
00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:03.200
- # Come on
- Come on

400
00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:04.320
- # Come on
- Come on

401
00:18:04.320 --> 00:18:05.360
# Come on

402
00:18:05.360 --> 00:18:07.920
# You can do it, You can do it You can do it, You can do it

403
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:10.800
- # Whoo! #
- He was driven by the music,

404
00:18:10.800 --> 00:18:13.640
- he loved the music and, er...
- He got to learn.

405
00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.680
One of the most important things to being successful is listening.

406
00:18:17.680 --> 00:18:19.880
It's listening and watching.

407
00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.840
And being a good person to work with, easy to work with.

408
00:18:22.840 --> 00:18:26.040
Every song is a negotiation, every production is a negotiation,

409
00:18:26.040 --> 00:18:28.200
if you're co-doing it with someone.

410
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:31.360
You know, the producer wanted me to pronounce words a certain way.

411
00:18:31.360 --> 00:18:35.160
There was a song, and there's a line in it where he sings...

412
00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:39.080
# Now I'm a man that's for all seasons

413
00:18:39.080 --> 00:18:43.280
# And what the city offers me ain't naturally... #

414
00:18:43.280 --> 00:18:44.400
# "Ain't naturally..." #

415
00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:46.880
He sings that, and I go, "Oh, no, that's bad English."

416
00:18:46.880 --> 00:18:49.680
So I say, "Hang on, Mike," and I come out, and I said,

417
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:53.520
so I say, "Isn't naturally - naturally? Or isn't natural?"

418
00:18:53.520 --> 00:18:56.280
I told him you pronounce the word so precisely, it takes away

419
00:18:56.280 --> 00:19:00.960
from the feeling of the song, and we got into a little thing with that.

420
00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:02.280
There's a lot of give and take,

421
00:19:02.280 --> 00:19:04.800
and sometimes you don't want to give, or sometimes you give

422
00:19:04.800 --> 00:19:07.040
but you feel like, "I should have left it how it was."

423
00:19:07.040 --> 00:19:10.160
Something said, in my brain, "Shut the fuck up!"

424
00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:12.400
"Stop being the grammar police!

425
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:14.920
This guy's a genius, just get out of his way!"

426
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.440
I was right, and I won!

427
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:20.520
But, um... it was a good learning point.

428
00:19:20.520 --> 00:19:22.280
You want to...

429
00:19:22.280 --> 00:19:25.800
100% express your idea.

430
00:19:25.800 --> 00:19:27.960
It's just 100% expression of me.

431
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:29.000
We have two albums...

432
00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:32.840
I mean, two singles on the album coming out in December on Epic.

433
00:19:32.840 --> 00:19:35.640
The first time we've written some songs on the album.

434
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:37.960
It was a different style, but still it was a hit record,

435
00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:40.200
so when we started putting that together with what

436
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:44.280
we heard amongst the brothers, it created our own style of music.

437
00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:46.160
It's time to write, so I'm letting you know

438
00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:48.920
that it's time for you to go out and do it yourself.

439
00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:52.600
So we decided to write and produce our own songs,

440
00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:54.600
and we finally did,

441
00:19:54.600 --> 00:19:57.080
and we went through so much, you know?

442
00:19:57.080 --> 00:19:58.360
The...

443
00:19:58.360 --> 00:20:00.920
People are not believing in your work, or saying,

444
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:02.760
"Are you sure, are you sure?"

445
00:20:02.760 --> 00:20:05.640
We said, "Yeah, we know we can, we know what we can do."

446
00:20:05.640 --> 00:20:08.040
And we went in and we wrote the Destiny album.

447
00:20:08.040 --> 00:20:10.480
I felt it was something that came from within,

448
00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.600
from us, that this was the Jacksons.

449
00:20:12.600 --> 00:20:14.120
"This is us today."

450
00:20:14.120 --> 00:20:16.760
On the Destiny album, which is the album that comes out in 1978,

451
00:20:16.760 --> 00:20:19.560
a year prior to Off The Wall, he's starting to make those moves,

452
00:20:19.560 --> 00:20:22.160
he wrote Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground).

453
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:24.600
Where were you when you first found out about that record,

454
00:20:24.600 --> 00:20:25.720
- how'd it happen?
- Er...

455
00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:26.760
It was at home,

456
00:20:26.760 --> 00:20:30.040
and Randy was playing this groove on the piano, "da-da-dah..."

457
00:20:30.040 --> 00:20:32.360
I said, "What is that?" He said, "Oh, it's nothing."

458
00:20:32.360 --> 00:20:34.160
I said, "I'll say that it is something."

459
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:38.440
- And I just started singing to his playing.
- Mm-hm.
- And it came about.

460
00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.400
I called some of my friends out here I had a lot of respect for,

461
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:43.560
that knew how to arrange. I thought...

462
00:20:43.560 --> 00:20:47.640
the key to really making an album of a vocal band like this

463
00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:51.000
is obviously great musicians, great arrangements...

464
00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.960
Bobby Colomby convinced me that I should, er...

465
00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:55.360
get more into arranging.

466
00:20:55.360 --> 00:20:57.560
He said, "And here's who you're going to do it with."

467
00:20:57.560 --> 00:20:59.880
Next thing you know, I'm in a room with The Jacksons!

468
00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.000
Then we brought Greg in to help us with the record...

469
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:04.440
- Destiny album again.
- Yeah.

470
00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:06.320
- Man!
- Amazing!

471
00:21:06.320 --> 00:21:09.960
- Everybody was just great from the beginning.
- It was supe then.

472
00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:13.600
When I first heard the demo for Shake Your Body, it was...

473
00:21:13.600 --> 00:21:19.080
You know, obviously, the melody was there, which was very strong,

474
00:21:19.080 --> 00:21:24.120
and they had the basic piano part, you know, that you hear,

475
00:21:24.120 --> 00:21:26.480
the "duh-duh-duh-duh..." All that rhythm was there.

476
00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:30.680
# You walk around this town all with your head up in the sky

477
00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:34.840
# But I do know that I want you... #

478
00:21:34.840 --> 00:21:38.720
But there wasn't...as much going on rhythmically.

479
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:41.520
Greg came up with the "psst-psst-bah-dun-bah-dum."

480
00:21:41.520 --> 00:21:43.080
"Psst-psst-bah-dun-bah-dum."

481
00:21:43.080 --> 00:21:44.680
"Psst-psst-bah-dun-bah-dah."

482
00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:46.320
"Psst-psst-bah-dun-bah-dah."

483
00:21:46.320 --> 00:21:48.920
That's the rhythm of Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground).

484
00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:50.320
The average song was more like,

485
00:21:50.320 --> 00:21:52.360
"Psst-tsst-tsst-tsst- tsst-tsst-tsst."

486
00:21:52.360 --> 00:21:55.080
- It fit perfectly.
- At first when he came up with that beat, I said,

487
00:21:55.080 --> 00:21:56.200
"What is this guy doing?"

488
00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:58.240
I said that to myself, I didn't say anything,

489
00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.840
but I waited till he played it,

490
00:22:00.840 --> 00:22:03.880
- and, man, when he played it...
- Yes.
- ..and we heard it on the record,

491
00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:05.560
I said, "Oh, my God, this is the bomb!"

492
00:22:05.560 --> 00:22:06.680
HE LAUGHS

493
00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:10.040
Cos I'd never heard a beat like that before, you know? It was incredible.

494
00:22:10.040 --> 00:22:11.240
Great beat.

495
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:13.600
I said, "If the Jacksons ever need a drummer,

496
00:22:13.600 --> 00:22:15.400
"let 'em know your friend is in town."

497
00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:17.960
It was a guy whose name is James McField, keyboard player,

498
00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:19.040
who got me the audition.

499
00:22:19.040 --> 00:22:21.640
And Tito said that - he had his arm on his guitar, and he said,

500
00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:23.240
"Let's play Shake Your Body Down..."

501
00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:25.240
This kind of look, he said, "You know that one?"

502
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:27.160
So I started playing the beat.

503
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:30.160
And they're looking at each other,

504
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.880
they're whispering in each other's ear, and they're looking,

505
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:34.640
and I'm saying, "Oh, no, I'm blowing it!"

506
00:22:34.640 --> 00:22:36.280
Because that beat is very tricky.

507
00:22:36.280 --> 00:22:38.640
You have to know when and how to cross your arms

508
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:40.400
to make the times happen,

509
00:22:40.400 --> 00:22:42.000
the intricate hi-hat pattern,

510
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:44.920
and keep the beat going without losing any of the elements.

511
00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:47.640
And then Randy said, "Nobody could play that beat!

512
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:49.200
That was a three-part overdub!"

513
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.040
And I said, "Really? I thought the guy played that one time."

514
00:22:52.040 --> 00:22:54.280
And they were shocked and amazed that I could play it,

515
00:22:54.280 --> 00:22:55.880
and they said, "You're our drummer."

516
00:22:55.880 --> 00:22:59.320
We had Tom Tom 84 doing the horn arrangements,

517
00:22:59.320 --> 00:23:01.400
who is a horn arranger out of Chicago

518
00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:03.320
who did all of Earth, Wind & Fire's.

519
00:23:03.320 --> 00:23:05.080
And then we have the horn arrangement,

520
00:23:05.080 --> 00:23:08.840
then we got Earth, Wind & Fire's horn players come in and play

521
00:23:08.840 --> 00:23:12.280
"Duh-duh-duh-duh-dah-da-da-da- dah-dah-dah,"

522
00:23:12.280 --> 00:23:13.880
and the horn players loved that lick.

523
00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:17.880
It's as dissonant and tension-provoking

524
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:19.920
a verse, musically...

525
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.600
You can't... And I'm, like, "What's going on?

526
00:23:22.600 --> 00:23:25.720
"Where's the bridge, when's the solo? When are we...?"

527
00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:27.600
I'm just used to other form.

528
00:23:27.600 --> 00:23:30.520
Epic's really not interested in them at all at this point,

529
00:23:30.520 --> 00:23:32.960
it was kind of like, "Oh, God, we've got to put this out..."

530
00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:35.200
I get a call from Paris Eley.

531
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:37.760
He is head of promotion for the R&B department.

532
00:23:37.760 --> 00:23:39.440
And he says, "Hey, man...

533
00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:41.960
"..Shake Your Body's a hit."

534
00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:43.760
I want to show you first of all the album,

535
00:23:43.760 --> 00:23:47.400
and then show you the inside, if I may, and from left to right,

536
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:50.560
they are Randy and Tito and Jackie and Marlon and Michael,

537
00:23:50.560 --> 00:23:51.640
and they are...

538
00:23:51.640 --> 00:23:52.840
The Jacksons!

539
00:23:52.840 --> 00:23:53.880
CHEERING

540
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:57.200
# I don't know what's gonna happen to you, baby

541
00:23:57.200 --> 00:23:59.840
# But I do know that I love you

542
00:24:01.040 --> 00:24:04.760
# You walk around this town with your head all up in the sky

543
00:24:04.760 --> 00:24:08.840
# And I do know that I want you

544
00:24:08.840 --> 00:24:11.000
# Let's dance, let's shout

545
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:12.880
# Shake your body down to the ground

546
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.400
# Let's dance, let's shout

547
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:16.920
# Shake your body down to the ground

548
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:19.080
# Let's dance, let's shout

549
00:24:19.080 --> 00:24:20.840
# Shake your body down to the ground

550
00:24:20.840 --> 00:24:23.080
# Let's dance, let's shout

551
00:24:23.080 --> 00:24:25.200
# Shake your body down to the ground... #

552
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:30.080
That enabled people to see Michael Jackson finally as an adult.

553
00:24:30.080 --> 00:24:33.040
Because it was musical, it was a long way from ABC

554
00:24:33.040 --> 00:24:34.600
and I Want You Back.

555
00:24:40.360 --> 00:24:44.320
# You tease me with your loving to play hard to get

556
00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:47.240
# Cos you do know that I want you

557
00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:52.320
# I need to do just something to get closer to your soul

558
00:24:52.320 --> 00:24:56.480
# Cos I do know that I want you

559
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:58.720
# Let's dance, let's shout

560
00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.320
# Shake your body down to the ground

561
00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:02.520
# Let's dance, let's shout

562
00:25:02.520 --> 00:25:04.320
# Shake your body down to the ground

563
00:25:04.320 --> 00:25:06.680
# Let's dance, let's shout

564
00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:08.200
# Shake your body down to the ground

565
00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:10.640
# Let's dance, let's shout

566
00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:12.360
# Shake it all now

567
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:21.800
# Shake it all now... #

568
00:25:21.800 --> 00:25:25.480
There's a moment in the demo of Shake Your Body (Down to the Ground)

569
00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:30.640
which clearly let me know that they had their eyes on a bigger prize.

570
00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.320
It's 1978, and the biggest-selling album of all time

571
00:25:34.320 --> 00:25:35.960
is Saturday Night Fever.

572
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.040
And there's a moment that you can hear Jackie in the background

573
00:25:40.040 --> 00:25:41.520
say, "Pssh!

574
00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:44.280
"I can't wait till the Bee Gees hear THIS shit!"

575
00:25:44.280 --> 00:25:45.880
I want the Bee Gees to hear this shit!

576
00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:47.000
Whoo!

577
00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:51.200
# Let's dance, let's shout

578
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:52.920
# Shake your body down to the ground... #

579
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:54.000
Everybody!

580
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:57.960
# Shake your body down to the ground Let's dance, let's shout

581
00:25:57.960 --> 00:25:59.680
# Shake your body down to the ground... #

582
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:00.720
Everybody!

583
00:26:01.840 --> 00:26:07.360
We wrote, "Produced by The Jacksons. All songs written by The Jacksons."

584
00:26:07.360 --> 00:26:09.160
Well, Mick Jackson,

585
00:26:09.160 --> 00:26:12.080
a white kid that lived in England, wrote Blame It On The Boogie.

586
00:26:12.080 --> 00:26:14.480
I didn't lie. His name was Jackson!

587
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:16.280
# Don't blame it on the sunshine

588
00:26:16.280 --> 00:26:18.320
# Don't blame it on the moonlight

589
00:26:18.320 --> 00:26:20.560
# Don't blame it on the good times

590
00:26:20.560 --> 00:26:22.360
# Blame it on the boogie

591
00:26:22.360 --> 00:26:24.640
# Don't you blame it on the sunshine

592
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.680
# Don't blame it on the moonlight

593
00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:28.920
# Don't blame it on the good times

594
00:26:28.920 --> 00:26:30.440
# Blame it on the boogie... #

595
00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:31.600
Whoo!

596
00:26:31.600 --> 00:26:33.560
# I just can't, I just can't

597
00:26:33.560 --> 00:26:35.520
# I just can't control my feet

598
00:26:35.520 --> 00:26:37.600
# I just can't, I just can't

599
00:26:37.600 --> 00:26:39.560
# I just can't control my feet

600
00:26:39.560 --> 00:26:41.640
# I just can't, I just can't

601
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:43.480
# I just can't control my feet

602
00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:45.600
# I just can't, I just can't

603
00:26:45.600 --> 00:26:47.680
# I just can't control my feet

604
00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:49.000
# Sunshine

605
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.080
# Don't blame it on the moonlight

606
00:26:51.080 --> 00:26:53.200
# Don't blame it on the good times

607
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:54.680
# Blame it on the boogie

608
00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:56.920
# Sunshine

609
00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.040
# Don't blame it on the moonlight

610
00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:01.040
# Don't blame it on the good times

611
00:27:01.040 --> 00:27:02.880
# Blame it on the boogie

612
00:27:03.840 --> 00:27:05.600
# I just can't, I just can't

613
00:27:05.600 --> 00:27:07.440
# I just can't control my feet

614
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.320
- # I just can't, I just can't
- Whoo!

615
00:27:09.320 --> 00:27:10.840
# I just can't control my... #

616
00:27:10.840 --> 00:27:12.200
So Michael starts singing.

617
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:15.560
He throws the headphones down, and bolts out of the studio.

618
00:27:15.560 --> 00:27:17.200
I turned to the engineer...

619
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.200
"Did he get feedback, is there something...?"

620
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:21.320
He says, "No, nothing." I go out to the hall,

621
00:27:21.320 --> 00:27:22.360
he's dancing!

622
00:27:22.360 --> 00:27:24.720
It was unbelievable, just spinning around, he goes...

623
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:28.440
"I'm sorry," he said, "I can't stand still and sing that section,

624
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:29.760
"I gotta get this out."

625
00:27:29.760 --> 00:27:33.680
He'd watched James Brown, the Nicholas Brothers and Sammy Davis.

626
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:36.400
He had seen somebody dance one time,

627
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:39.280
like Fred Astaire and some of the other stars,

628
00:27:39.280 --> 00:27:41.720
and he could do exactly what they...

629
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:42.960
Easy to catch on.

630
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.440
Jackie Wilson, which I used to watch from the wings every day on stage.

631
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:50.000
- Mmm-hmm.
- We would play at the Regal Theater, six shows a day,

632
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:51.640
we would come on amateur hour...

633
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:53.800
- Oh, my gosh.
- I would just watch him.

634
00:27:53.800 --> 00:27:55.840
Sammy Davis Jr is another one of my favourites.

635
00:27:55.840 --> 00:27:58.160
- You can't go wrong watching Sammy Davis Jr.
- Oh, yeah.

636
00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:01.240
To watch him and to see...

637
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:04.600
And suddenly see little flashes...

638
00:28:04.600 --> 00:28:06.680
Flatteringly, I say this about myself...

639
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:11.200
Little flashes of me there, and go, "Wow," but he's extended it,

640
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:15.560
he's changed it, he's coloured it, till it becomes his own.

641
00:28:15.560 --> 00:28:17.880
He introduced me to Fred Astaire and all these movies,

642
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:20.920
I had no idea who the hell these people were prior to that.

643
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:21.960
Right? And, er...

644
00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.000
He just opened up my eyes to a whole other world of inspiration.

645
00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:28.800
I just want to let you know I have all your films on tape,

646
00:28:28.800 --> 00:28:30.680
and I watch them all the time.

647
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:32.760
And I want to ask you one question.

648
00:28:32.760 --> 00:28:36.320
How do you do that thing when you, er...walk on the ceiling?

649
00:28:36.320 --> 00:28:37.960
FRED ASTAIRE LAUGHS Dancing...

650
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:39.720
Really, I want to know, how did that work?

651
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:42.520
- The whole room and the camera turned.
- So they both turned, right?

652
00:28:42.520 --> 00:28:43.560
Yeah.

653
00:28:43.560 --> 00:28:45.440
TAP DANCING

654
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:48.560
BIG BAND MUSIC PLAYS

655
00:28:49.880 --> 00:28:52.920
TAP DANCING

656
00:29:13.120 --> 00:29:15.200
Michael's dance is based on energy,

657
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:16.640
and he's...

658
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:19.280
He moves like an electric eel, he's got...

659
00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:22.120
I think the adjective "electric" is good for him.

660
00:29:22.120 --> 00:29:25.640
He's charged with energy. But he has the good...

661
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:28.680
inner sense, or wherever it comes from, his brain, wherever,

662
00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:31.760
to just take it down and then up again quickly,

663
00:29:31.760 --> 00:29:34.120
which good dancers naturally have.

664
00:29:34.120 --> 00:29:36.600
I came out after the war,

665
00:29:36.600 --> 00:29:38.720
after I was in the Navy,

666
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:41.960
and I wanted to dance for the common man,

667
00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:45.680
I didn't want to dance in white tie or tuxedo and dressed up.

668
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:49.520
I wanted to roll up my sleeves and wear jeans and T-shirts.

669
00:29:49.520 --> 00:29:52.680
The nearest thing I could get to dancing shoes were loafers.

670
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:56.240
And the white socks and the rolled-up jeans.

671
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:58.240
And he's dancing from the streets.

672
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:00.600
Like I was. I believe that.

673
00:30:00.600 --> 00:30:02.360
I was a teenager, and I was getting older.

674
00:30:02.360 --> 00:30:05.840
I started to really understand...

675
00:30:05.840 --> 00:30:08.080
the power of dance.

676
00:30:08.080 --> 00:30:10.720
The way he could spin, stop on a dime

677
00:30:10.720 --> 00:30:14.600
and point with such intensity - that's the power I'm talking about.

678
00:30:14.600 --> 00:30:17.480
And I'd perfect a certain amount of moves.

679
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:21.720
There is beauty in simplicity, in really stripping things down,

680
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:23.520
and I learned that from him.

681
00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:25.440
He impacted everything for me, absolutely.

682
00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:26.960
He impacted my game on the court,

683
00:30:26.960 --> 00:30:29.000
he impacted me now to this day in how I learn.

684
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:31.720
Watching him was like something I'd never seen before.

685
00:30:31.720 --> 00:30:34.840
Um... It was something that was magical, that was creative,

686
00:30:34.840 --> 00:30:37.520
that seemed like something that I could mimic.

687
00:30:37.520 --> 00:30:41.840
That's how I found my love for dance before I found classical ballet.

688
00:30:41.840 --> 00:30:43.760
I used to ask him, "How much do you practise?"

689
00:30:43.760 --> 00:30:47.680
He said, "You know, I would dance until I can't dance no more."

690
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:48.840
I said, "What do you mean?"

691
00:30:48.840 --> 00:30:52.640
He said, "I'd dance till my legs physically could not move."

692
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:57.880
There's a lot of people who just don't have that same type of drive.

693
00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:01.600
You see it in an artist like Beyonce, that kind of drive.

694
00:31:01.600 --> 00:31:04.040
You know, a lot of times when it comes to black artists -

695
00:31:04.040 --> 00:31:07.080
it happened with Basquiat, with Miles Davis, with Michael Jackson -

696
00:31:07.080 --> 00:31:09.600
people talk about their kind of "natural gifts",

697
00:31:09.600 --> 00:31:12.600
as if there is not a strategy and skill and craft,

698
00:31:12.600 --> 00:31:14.520
as if Miles Davis didn't go to Juilliard,

699
00:31:14.520 --> 00:31:17.800
or Basquiat didn't know who Monet and Renoir were,

700
00:31:17.800 --> 00:31:20.520
or Michael Jackson hadn't been doing this his entire life.

701
00:31:20.520 --> 00:31:24.240
Some of my favourite writers are Johnny Mercer, Irving Berlin,

702
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.800
George Gershwin, Duke Ellington, Count Basie...

703
00:31:27.800 --> 00:31:30.440
Oh, no, you gotta put the work in, man, you gotta put the time in.

704
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.040
And really, man, it's love that you're putting in.

705
00:31:33.040 --> 00:31:36.040
You know, cos people that do this kind of stuff, man, we love what we do.

706
00:31:36.040 --> 00:31:38.240
This is dated November 6th, 1979.

707
00:31:38.240 --> 00:31:41.160
He was on the road with his brothers on the Destiny tour.

708
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.080
"MJ will be my new name. No more Michael Jackson.

709
00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:46.760
"I want a whole new character, a whole new look.

710
00:31:46.760 --> 00:31:48.600
"I should be a totally different person.

711
00:31:48.600 --> 00:31:50.160
"People should never think of me

712
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:52.800
"as the kid who sang ABC/I Want You Back.

713
00:31:52.800 --> 00:31:55.160
"I should be a new, incredible

714
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:57.960
"actor-singer-dancer that will shock the world.

715
00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:00.200
"I will do no interviews. I will be magic.

716
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.760
"I will be a perfectionist, a researcher, a trainer, a master.

717
00:32:03.760 --> 00:32:07.080
"I will be better than every great actor roped in one.

718
00:32:07.080 --> 00:32:10.160
"I must have the most incredible training system

719
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.640
"to dig and dig and dig until I find.

720
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:16.520
"I will study and look back on the whole world of entertainment

721
00:32:16.520 --> 00:32:17.680
"and perfect it,

722
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:21.160
"take it steps further from where the greatest left off."

723
00:32:21.160 --> 00:32:23.440
You guys are really riding a big high now as far as

724
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:25.080
producing records and so on.

725
00:32:25.080 --> 00:32:27.880
Do you think this is the peak of your career now, or have you

726
00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:30.840
gone down a little bit, or are you expecting bigger and better things?

727
00:32:30.840 --> 00:32:34.320
- What are you looking forward to in the future, Michael?
- Recording other artists,

728
00:32:34.320 --> 00:32:37.240
and going into acting. We get a lot of scripts in, but...

729
00:32:37.240 --> 00:32:40.920
we haven't found the exact script that we want to use.

730
00:32:40.920 --> 00:32:43.120
- Mm-hm.
- So we're picking and deciding.

731
00:32:43.120 --> 00:32:45.560
Think you may be a big movie star one day, huh?

732
00:32:45.560 --> 00:32:47.680
- Yeah, I'd like to give it a try.
- Yeah.

733
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.400
That's a good business to be in. You've got the looks, you know?

734
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.400
Fortunately I didn't...

735
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:53.880
- LAUGHTER
- You know.

736
00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:55.200
- What?
- LAUGHTER

737
00:32:56.800 --> 00:33:00.520
'With the advent of motion pictures came an abundance of Oz films.

738
00:33:00.520 --> 00:33:04.120
'A 1925 version starred Oliver Hardy as the tin man.

739
00:33:04.120 --> 00:33:08.200
'And who will ever forget the 1939 MGM musical version

740
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:10.240
'starring Judy Garland?

741
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:13.760
'In 1974, The Wiz opened on Broadway,

742
00:33:13.760 --> 00:33:16.200
'winning seven Tony awards.'

743
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:18.000
I was a senior in high school.

744
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:23.680
And there was this girl named Barbara Hampton who I liked.

745
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:25.720
And I wanted to impress her.

746
00:33:25.720 --> 00:33:29.440
I was working at Baskin Robbins. I just saved my money,

747
00:33:29.440 --> 00:33:31.920
and I finally got up enough courage to ask her,

748
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.560
"Would you like to go see The Wiz with me?

749
00:33:34.560 --> 00:33:36.600
"I got two great seats in the centre aisle."

750
00:33:36.600 --> 00:33:38.600
She said, "Nah, I don't think so."

751
00:33:38.600 --> 00:33:40.720
HE LAUGHS

752
00:33:42.280 --> 00:33:43.680
Scalped them.

753
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:45.200
For double the price.

754
00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:48.160
I took Michael the first time to see The Wiz, he went back 30 more times.

755
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:51.480
The Wiz, when it came out in 1978, was, er...

756
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:54.040
You know, Lumet's movie adaptation

757
00:33:54.040 --> 00:33:56.680
of that great long-running play that was on Broadway

758
00:33:56.680 --> 00:33:58.040
with Stephanie Mills.

759
00:33:58.040 --> 00:34:02.880
# So it's real, real Real to me... #

760
00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:05.520
There was a great debate, at least in my neighbourhood,

761
00:34:05.520 --> 00:34:06.640
that Diana Ross was dope,

762
00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.200
but the only reason they cast her was cos she's Diana Ross.

763
00:34:09.200 --> 00:34:11.640
Stephanie Mills would have been a better fit for the film,

764
00:34:11.640 --> 00:34:14.120
but for whatever reason, she didn't get the job.

765
00:34:14.120 --> 00:34:16.600
We're not going to do it with an unknown young actress -

766
00:34:16.600 --> 00:34:17.800
we have to have star power

767
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.360
to make it cross over.

768
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:25.960
It also was the most expensive movie ever made

769
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.640
with an all African-American cast.

770
00:34:28.640 --> 00:34:31.360
So because of Car Wash and Sparkle,

771
00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:33.360
you know, this happens in Hollywood,

772
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.560
were you designated as the go-to guy for black material?

773
00:34:36.560 --> 00:34:38.440
- I was the black writer.
- The black writer?

774
00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:42.200
And Sidney was probably the number one American director

775
00:34:42.200 --> 00:34:45.080
right then, cos he had done Serpico, Dog Day Afternoon,

776
00:34:45.080 --> 00:34:48.560
Network, Murder On The Orient Express, I think all in a row.

777
00:34:48.560 --> 00:34:51.240
He was king, and definitely king of New York.

778
00:34:51.240 --> 00:34:54.320
Michael was desperate to play the scarecrow.

779
00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:57.240
Always wanted to have a film career, there was some rumour that he was

780
00:34:57.240 --> 00:35:00.080
supposed to start in the Frankie Lymon story that never happened.

781
00:35:00.080 --> 00:35:01.920
The Wiz was supposed to be a huge film,

782
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:04.440
Diana Ross, his long-time pal, is starring in it.

783
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:08.160
He's no longer in Motown, and Michael called Berry Gordy.

784
00:35:08.160 --> 00:35:12.120
We were doing The Wiz, Rob Cohen was handling it...

785
00:35:12.120 --> 00:35:15.240
He was working for me at the time at Motown Productions.

786
00:35:15.240 --> 00:35:17.160
It would have been very easy for him to say,

787
00:35:17.160 --> 00:35:19.000
"Well, you know, Michael, you're gone now,

788
00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:20.840
- "and I can find somebody else."
- Hell, no!

789
00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:23.120
Sidney was adamant that he didn't want Michael.

790
00:35:23.120 --> 00:35:27.320
He felt Michael was over, and had been a cute little kid,

791
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:31.200
musical star, but hadn't grown into it, and I just said,

792
00:35:31.200 --> 00:35:34.800
"You're making a mistake, and I want you to meet him."

793
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.920
Of course, Lumet fell in love with Michael.

794
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.480
Michael may be the purest talent I've ever seen.

795
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:42.360
He's incapable of a false moment,

796
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:46.600
he's so true that anything around him has to become true.

797
00:35:46.600 --> 00:35:48.800
If you don't work honestly around him, you're going

798
00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:50.120
to look as if you're faking it.

799
00:35:50.120 --> 00:35:53.400
Well, yeah, he's all those things, plus this kid can dance

800
00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:55.720
and sing like nobody else.

801
00:35:55.720 --> 00:35:58.840
It was so obvious, the genius of this boy,

802
00:35:58.840 --> 00:36:00.440
I mean, it was so effortless.

803
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:02.960
When I was real small, when I saw the original Wizard of Oz,

804
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:05.800
the Judy Garland version, I always fell in love with the scarecrow.

805
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:08.000
I think most kids do, because you feel sorry for him

806
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:09.560
and everything, and he's so...

807
00:36:09.560 --> 00:36:12.560
his character, and I always watched them,

808
00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:14.720
as a matter of fact, I had the step down that they did

809
00:36:14.720 --> 00:36:16.760
when I was six, I would do it all around the house.

810
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:18.160
# Follow the yellow brick road! #

811
00:36:18.160 --> 00:36:19.680
Ta-da! THEY GIGGLE

812
00:36:19.680 --> 00:36:20.840
Whoo! Come on, Dorothy!

813
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:22.400
Come on!

814
00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:23.680
Whoo!

815
00:36:26.560 --> 00:36:27.680
# Come on and

816
00:36:27.680 --> 00:36:30.960
# Ease on down Ease on down the road

817
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:32.000
# Come on

818
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.800
# Ease on down Ease on down the road

819
00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:38.600
# Don't you carry nothing that might be a load

820
00:36:38.600 --> 00:36:41.840
# Come on, ease on down Ease on down, down the road... #

821
00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:44.560
As a matter of fact, that hill that we do

822
00:36:44.560 --> 00:36:47.320
Ease On Down The Road on was going uphill, and Diana and me,

823
00:36:47.320 --> 00:36:50.440
we were so out of breath, we had to do it a couple of times, really.

824
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:52.000
I mean, it was going straight up!

825
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:54.200
# ..keepin' on the road that you choose

826
00:36:54.200 --> 00:36:56.200
# Don't you give up walkin'

827
00:36:56.200 --> 00:36:58.160
# Cos you gave up shoes

828
00:36:58.160 --> 00:36:59.600
# Yeah... #

829
00:36:59.600 --> 00:37:02.840
He'd come in for a five-hour make-up call in the morning.

830
00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:05.160
Get the make-up out of the way, right on the case,

831
00:37:05.160 --> 00:37:08.400
he knew everybody's lines, everybody's songs,

832
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.800
he knew everybody's position, and he stood there almost at attention.

833
00:37:11.800 --> 00:37:15.000
And I saw this uncanny-type discipline in such a young person.

834
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.960
Quincy, of course, was the musical director,

835
00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:18.480
he was doing the score for The Wiz.

836
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:20.080
And you see him for a minute, right,

837
00:37:20.080 --> 00:37:22.840
you see him for a minute conducting the band in the movie,

838
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:26.000
and I was a Quincy fan, you know, Smackwater Jack,

839
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.160
Walking In Space, Body Heat, all that stuff.

840
00:37:29.160 --> 00:37:31.000
The Wiz seemed like a great combination

841
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:32.720
of all these things that he could do.

842
00:37:32.720 --> 00:37:36.120
Lumet was very happy to have Quincy. We all were.

843
00:37:36.120 --> 00:37:39.400
That just kind of guaranteed the musical portion

844
00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:42.360
would hit a strong popular chord.

845
00:37:42.360 --> 00:37:44.920
He didn't actually have a feature number in the film

846
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:46.280
when they hired him.

847
00:37:46.280 --> 00:37:50.040
They didn't know about the dancing, a lot of things, and...

848
00:37:50.040 --> 00:37:53.440
Eventually everybody came to understand what it was all about.

849
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:55.960
# You can't win

850
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:57.400
# You can't break even

851
00:37:57.400 --> 00:38:00.880
# And you can't get out of the game

852
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:04.760
# People keep saying things are gonna change

853
00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:08.240
# But they look just like they're staying the same... #

854
00:38:08.240 --> 00:38:10.640
But I don't think they showed enough of his dancing.

855
00:38:10.640 --> 00:38:14.320
The real night that Off The Wall was born...

856
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:17.160
We were doing the pre-records for the movie.

857
00:38:17.160 --> 00:38:22.040
Quincy had, like, tunnel vision on Diana Ross.

858
00:38:22.040 --> 00:38:24.040
Finally, about 2am...

859
00:38:24.040 --> 00:38:28.200
Er... Q had what he wanted from Diana, and he goes, "OK, Michael,

860
00:38:28.200 --> 00:38:30.160
"you come in on bar six."

861
00:38:30.160 --> 00:38:33.840
- And Michael starts, like, at 1,000 watts.
- # Whoo! Whoo! Ah!

862
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:35.440
- And he's doing everything...
- # Ooh! #

863
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:38.360
..that became the signature Michael Jackson.

864
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:39.520
Whoo! Aah!

865
00:38:39.520 --> 00:38:40.640
HE LAUGHS

866
00:38:40.640 --> 00:38:41.920
- Come on, Dorothy!
- He was...

867
00:38:41.920 --> 00:38:46.480
And it was like a lioness who just suddenly sees a baby goat.

868
00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:47.640
HE LAUGHS

869
00:38:47.640 --> 00:38:49.320
It was just...zoom!

870
00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:53.400
The more I knew him, the more I became fascinated with

871
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:55.480
the idea of maybe working with him.

872
00:38:55.480 --> 00:38:57.440
It was a lot of fun working with all the greats -

873
00:38:57.440 --> 00:39:00.720
Sidney Lumet, Quincy Jones, everybody.

874
00:39:00.720 --> 00:39:05.320
I may be, I don't know, one of the few people who really loved The Wiz.

875
00:39:05.320 --> 00:39:08.600
There's some great representation on film that we hadn't seen before.

876
00:39:08.600 --> 00:39:11.360
When The Wiz came out, I was seven years old.

877
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:14.600
That was an event for black America.

878
00:39:14.600 --> 00:39:17.000
I can't speak for all of New York City, I can't speak for

879
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:19.440
all of the country, but everybody in my neighbourhood

880
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:22.000
in Harlem was going to see The Wiz because of Mike Jackson.

881
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:25.160
So this is a big moment for Michael Jackson, he gets to

882
00:39:25.160 --> 00:39:29.160
fulfil his acting desires and he's finally in a big Hollywood film.

883
00:39:29.160 --> 00:39:32.160
So he and his sister La Toya moved to New York.

884
00:39:32.160 --> 00:39:34.720
I found him an apartment on 400 East 56th Street

885
00:39:34.720 --> 00:39:36.120
off First Avenue.

886
00:39:36.120 --> 00:39:38.920
In the summer of '77, a legendary summer, there were blackouts,

887
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:41.560
there was a serial killer, David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam,

888
00:39:41.560 --> 00:39:44.800
who was doing all these random killings, people were terrified.

889
00:39:44.800 --> 00:39:48.240
The first summer of disco, it was the time in which all of these

890
00:39:48.240 --> 00:39:52.240
nascent music forms were coming up - punk, hip-hop, disco was huge.

891
00:39:52.240 --> 00:39:54.680
And there are all these different elements that were

892
00:39:54.680 --> 00:39:57.000
happening in New York at the same time that were sort of

893
00:39:57.000 --> 00:39:59.680
coming in contact with each other or clashing with each other.

894
00:39:59.680 --> 00:40:01.920
I have a feeling that's probably where he first heard

895
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.480
a lot of early hip-hop, the beatboxing that he was basically

896
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.880
doing on a song like Working Day and Night. Even though

897
00:40:06.880 --> 00:40:09.560
he was only 19, he was going to Studio 54 on a regular basis.

898
00:40:09.560 --> 00:40:12.160
Perhaps you've heard the name Studio 54.

899
00:40:12.160 --> 00:40:16.040
It attracts the rich, the famous, the glamorous and the powerful.

900
00:40:16.040 --> 00:40:18.480
They come to this disco palace in New York City

901
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:20.240
just about any night of the week.

902
00:40:20.240 --> 00:40:22.880
He was making all kinds of eccentric and unusual friends that,

903
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.480
you know, now we see the photos of and it looks really strange.

904
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:27.080
He's hanging out with Liza Minnelli.

905
00:40:27.080 --> 00:40:28.960
Hi, sweetheart!

906
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:32.480
- You're just hanging out in New York?
- Yes, Studio 54.
- Come here a lot?

907
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:35.480
- Oh, God, yes.
- Why?
- Because I like the atmosphere at Studio 54.

908
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:38.000
I've been to a lot of discotheques and I don't like them.

909
00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:39.560
What's the difference?

910
00:40:39.560 --> 00:40:42.880
I don't know, the feeling, I mean, the excitement of the props

911
00:40:42.880 --> 00:40:46.200
coming down and the balcony, it's just exciting, honestly!

912
00:40:46.200 --> 00:40:51.320
I'm certain that his experience and going to Studio 54 during the

913
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:53.160
filming of The Wiz

914
00:40:53.160 --> 00:40:57.440
played a big part in where he wanted this album played.

915
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:00.000
It doesn't mean he wanted to make a disco record.

916
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.400
He is a dancer, he's a marvellous dancer.

917
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:04.840
He's an influential, innovative dancer.

918
00:41:04.840 --> 00:41:06.960
Why do you dance for fun?

919
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:09.560
Because you're just being free then.

920
00:41:09.560 --> 00:41:12.440
Most of the time it's set choreography when were on stage,

921
00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:14.480
stuff you have to do every night.

922
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:17.800
When you dance here, you're just free, you dance with whoever

923
00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:19.400
you want to, you just go wild!

924
00:41:19.400 --> 00:41:22.840
What about the craziness? It gets crazy and wild...

925
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:24.800
No, it doesn't.

926
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:27.760
No, not only is it fun to dance, it's fun to look at,

927
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:29.240
you know, other people.

928
00:41:29.240 --> 00:41:31.400
You walk around and you see all kinds of things,

929
00:41:31.400 --> 00:41:33.400
like Darth Vader was here the other night!

930
00:41:33.400 --> 00:41:34.880
It was incredible.

931
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:37.440
I'm sure he was making these observations

932
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.680
of what was going on around him.

933
00:41:39.680 --> 00:41:42.680
He was kind of self-conscious about himself and kind of shy.

934
00:41:42.680 --> 00:41:45.680
So he wasn't trying to be around all the wildness, all the freakiness.

935
00:41:45.680 --> 00:41:47.000
You know what I'm saying?

936
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:49.520
He would go in the DJ booth and just watch people

937
00:41:49.520 --> 00:41:52.760
and make these mental notes. And I'm sure musical notes also.

938
00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:55.520
I think all of this shows up on Off The Wall because it's certainly

939
00:41:55.520 --> 00:41:57.600
one of the most sensual albums he ever released.

940
00:41:57.600 --> 00:42:00.160
It contains the sort of exuberance and the sexuality.

941
00:42:00.160 --> 00:42:03.920
It's where you come when you want to escape. It's really escapism.

942
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:07.920
When we left Motown, you know, a certain amount of hours

943
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.840
for The Jacksons and a certain amount for me as a solo artist.

944
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:12.760
He's coming out as an autonomous figure,

945
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:15.360
separate from his father, separate from his brothers,

946
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:18.040
and really establishing himself as a solo act.

947
00:42:31.800 --> 00:42:33.840
I mean, there was some speculation, you know,

948
00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:35.240
would Quincy be the right guy?

949
00:42:35.240 --> 00:42:37.320
He's a jazz guy, would he be... You know.

950
00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:40.400
They didn't think that he could make him a contemporary hit record

951
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.400
that everybody in the whole world would like.

952
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:46.640
Well, I don't think it's possible to sit down and try to intellectualise

953
00:42:46.640 --> 00:42:49.800
or theorise about how you can make a record that can appeal

954
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:51.040
to many, many people.

955
00:42:51.040 --> 00:42:53.600
The people in this room, you know, it's very difficult to try

956
00:42:53.600 --> 00:42:56.080
and make a record that everybody in this room would like.

957
00:42:56.080 --> 00:42:58.800
The label had other ideas about who he should go with.

958
00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:01.360
They wanted Maurice White, was one of the people,

959
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:03.760
and they also wanted Gamble and Huff to work with him.

960
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:06.440
Michael came back all teary-eyed one day and said,

961
00:43:06.440 --> 00:43:09.800
"The people at Epic don't want to use you. They said you're too jazzy,

962
00:43:09.800 --> 00:43:12.440
"you know, you don't understand this kind of music."

963
00:43:12.440 --> 00:43:14.880
But they don't know, you know, these guys don't know.

964
00:43:14.880 --> 00:43:18.080
The A&R men, they're A&R men, they don't know!

965
00:43:18.080 --> 00:43:22.000
Thank God he went back with Freddy DeMann and Ron Weiser

966
00:43:22.000 --> 00:43:25.080
and they fought and they said, "He's doing it."

967
00:43:25.080 --> 00:43:27.320
Quincy called me one day and said,

968
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:32.600
"we're going to do Michael Jackson's album, his first solo album,"

969
00:43:32.600 --> 00:43:36.920
and I thought to myself, "Holy cow, I better get serious."

970
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:40.400
Cos I don't get those kind of calls very often.

971
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:44.080
When you discover Off The Wall for the first time, forget all the

972
00:43:44.080 --> 00:43:47.880
music for a second, let's just talk about the sonics, the sound of it.

973
00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:52.960
The sonic of that album stands up against any album right now, period.

974
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:56.120
Because it's raw, it was before drum machines,

975
00:43:56.120 --> 00:43:58.600
before heavy computer programming.

976
00:43:58.600 --> 00:44:02.000
Making an album is totally different today than what it was,

977
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:04.440
because when we made those albums back in the day,

978
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:06.320
we had live musicians, live drummer.

979
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.160
That's where you get magic, you know? You get a little bit of magic.

980
00:44:09.160 --> 00:44:12.160
And somebody's playing just a little bit under or something like that,

981
00:44:12.160 --> 00:44:14.920
- that's all part of making the record breathe.
- That's the pulse.

982
00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:18.400
Yeah, it's the pulse, yeah. Today everything is right on.

983
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:21.040
Everything is right-on today.

984
00:44:21.040 --> 00:44:25.400
These were, like, living, breathing recordings that...

985
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:26.800
were for the dance floor.

986
00:44:26.800 --> 00:44:28.600
I mean, machines are great, but...

987
00:44:28.600 --> 00:44:31.400
incredible musicians, I feel like, beat it every time.

988
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:34.480
I'm always telling engineers, like, "You better study and listen.

989
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:37.440
"If they were able to accomplish that type of fullness

990
00:44:37.440 --> 00:44:40.120
"and that type of sound... they were able to do that then,

991
00:44:40.120 --> 00:44:42.440
"you better be able to do something great now...

992
00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:43.840
"or you're fired."

993
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:46.600
What Quincy has is an extraordinary history.

994
00:44:46.600 --> 00:44:49.680
- He's leading the band behind Count Basie.
- Working with Frank Sinatra.

995
00:44:49.680 --> 00:44:53.240
- Sammy Davis Junior.
- Pawnbroker.
- Heat of the Night.
- Sanford & Son.

996
00:44:53.240 --> 00:44:56.000
He studied in France under a great orchestration.

997
00:44:56.000 --> 00:44:59.640
Nadia Boulanger, who taught Ravel.

998
00:44:59.640 --> 00:45:03.680
He's unlimited musically, he can... You want anything, he can do it.

999
00:45:03.680 --> 00:45:09.120
Jazz, folk, pop, classical, soul, gospel, anything.

1000
00:45:09.120 --> 00:45:12.320
Michael wrote three songs on the Off The Wall album -

1001
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:15.360
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough, Working Day And Night

1002
00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:16.840
and Get On The Floor.

1003
00:45:16.840 --> 00:45:19.000
He wanted the freedom to develop as an artist

1004
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:22.400
and writing these three songs was very important to him.

1005
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:23.880
# Don't stop 'til you get enough

1006
00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:25.400
# Keep on with your heart don't stop

1007
00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:27.120
# Don't stop 'til you get enough

1008
00:45:27.120 --> 00:45:31.000
# Keep on with your heart Don't stop... #

1009
00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:34.560
The demos are kind of a revelation, in that they really illuminate

1010
00:45:34.560 --> 00:45:38.400
Michael's abilities as a songwriter and show

1011
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:42.400
how developed his songs were when he brought them to Quincy Jones.

1012
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.720
You really see Michael's rhythmic sophistication.

1013
00:45:45.720 --> 00:45:48.600
Dum-dum-du-dum. Dum-dum-du-dum.

1014
00:45:48.600 --> 00:45:49.920
That's what did it.

1015
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:53.720
Boom-boom-da-doom. That's the phrase that pays.

1016
00:45:53.720 --> 00:45:55.160
That's the hook right there.

1017
00:45:55.160 --> 00:45:59.120
Michael ain't got to say a word yet, they could play that bassline

1018
00:45:59.120 --> 00:46:02.920
and they can run it, nonstop. And we're good.

1019
00:46:02.920 --> 00:46:05.480
The opening bars of the record is just like,

1020
00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:08.240
you could be playing the worst set of your life,

1021
00:46:08.240 --> 00:46:12.760
or at a wedding, at a club, and... "dum-dum..." it's just like, "Ah!"

1022
00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:15.800
You kind of get this little tick that's going on,

1023
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:18.000
anybody, they just down for it,

1024
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:21.320
even the guys try to be hard, like...

1025
00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:22.960
You know, you just in there!

1026
00:46:24.120 --> 00:46:26.880
You know, I was, I was wondering, you know,

1027
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:28.960
if you could keep on,

1028
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:33.120
because the force, it's got a lot of power,

1029
00:46:33.120 --> 00:46:35.600
and it make me feel like, ah...

1030
00:46:35.600 --> 00:46:37.160
it make me feel like...

1031
00:46:37.160 --> 00:46:38.200
oooh!

1032
00:46:45.720 --> 00:46:48.200
# Lovely

1033
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:52.440
# Is the feelin' now

1034
00:46:53.640 --> 00:46:55.680
# Fever

1035
00:46:56.800 --> 00:46:59.880
# Temperature's risin' now

1036
00:47:01.320 --> 00:47:04.760
- # Power
- Ah, power

1037
00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:07.360
# Is the force, the vow

1038
00:47:08.440 --> 00:47:12.400
# That makes it happen

1039
00:47:12.400 --> 00:47:15.360
# It asks no questions why... #

1040
00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:20.280
It's the song I use to reset my day, it's the song that I use

1041
00:47:20.280 --> 00:47:22.800
when I need to be motivated,

1042
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:25.040
it's my absolute favourite Michael Jackson song.

1043
00:47:25.040 --> 00:47:28.840
"These are my own songs, I'm going to communicate my own thoughts,

1044
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:30.680
"my own emotions, my own ideas,

1045
00:47:30.680 --> 00:47:33.320
"my own rhythmic sensibility..."

1046
00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:36.400
Vocal trademarks - you hear a lot of that in these songs,

1047
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:38.280
completely uninhibited.

1048
00:47:38.280 --> 00:47:42.080
You feel his energy coming through because you feel that freedom.

1049
00:47:42.080 --> 00:47:43.160
"Oooh!"

1050
00:47:43.160 --> 00:47:45.840
That's the first time we heard that iconic yell.

1051
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:47.800
That's his "free at last!"

1052
00:47:47.800 --> 00:47:50.640
I was in Buffalo with you, fantastic show, you darn near blinded me

1053
00:47:50.640 --> 00:47:52.120
there, man, that thing is dynamite

1054
00:47:52.120 --> 00:47:54.920
when you come out, they have to see that, you jumping out of there.

1055
00:47:54.920 --> 00:47:56.320
Oh, "Don't Stop".

1056
00:47:56.320 --> 00:47:57.840
Ooh!

1057
00:48:06.200 --> 00:48:09.520
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough had this kind of, this opening groove,

1058
00:48:09.520 --> 00:48:10.680
and the opening groove

1059
00:48:10.680 --> 00:48:14.320
kind of sets you off, if you were a dancer, you let that sink in.

1060
00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:18.280
I always use Michael first and foremost as a vocal inspiration.

1061
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:20.000
And Off The Wall was definitely

1062
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:22.440
the one that made me feel like I could sing.

1063
00:48:22.440 --> 00:48:24.280
I found my falsetto because of Off The Wall,

1064
00:48:24.280 --> 00:48:25.640
Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough.

1065
00:48:25.640 --> 00:48:28.640
# Lovely

1066
00:48:28.640 --> 00:48:30.800
# Is the feelin' now

1067
00:48:32.240 --> 00:48:34.480
# Fever

1068
00:48:35.680 --> 00:48:37.600
# Temperature's risin' now

1069
00:48:39.120 --> 00:48:41.240
# Power

1070
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:44.560
# Is the force, the vow

1071
00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:48.880
# That makes it happen

1072
00:48:48.880 --> 00:48:51.560
# It asks no questions why... #

1073
00:48:51.560 --> 00:48:54.720
And it had these bizarre lyrics, to me, bizarre lyrics

1074
00:48:54.720 --> 00:48:56.360
that were quoting Star Wars.

1075
00:48:56.360 --> 00:49:00.080
I didn't even know he was saying, "Keep on with the force don't stop,"

1076
00:49:00.080 --> 00:49:01.480
I thought it was about forks.

1077
00:49:01.480 --> 00:49:03.960
When I was a kid I was like, "Keep on with the forks!"

1078
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:05.440
I didn't know what the forks were!

1079
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:18.920
HE BEATBOXES

1080
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:55.440
Ow!

1081
00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:09.440
Woo!

1082
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:15.080
I remember the video, I mean, he just looked like a million dollars.

1083
00:50:15.080 --> 00:50:18.840
I think that's before they had a million dollars to spend.

1084
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:22.720
So it was done for relatively a small amount of money,

1085
00:50:22.720 --> 00:50:25.120
and yet he had to single-handedly sell it.

1086
00:50:25.120 --> 00:50:29.400
# There ain't nothing that you can do

1087
00:50:30.520 --> 00:50:33.560
# Relax your mind

1088
00:50:33.560 --> 00:50:37.320
# Lay back and groove with mine

1089
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:39.880
# You gotta feel that heat

1090
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:42.240
# And we can ride the boogie

1091
00:50:42.240 --> 00:50:45.560
# Share that beat of love

1092
00:50:45.560 --> 00:50:50.160
- # I wanna rock with you
- All night

1093
00:50:50.160 --> 00:50:53.840
- # Dance you into day
- Sunlight

1094
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:57.560
- # I wanna rock with you
- All night

1095
00:50:57.560 --> 00:51:01.000
# We're gonna rock the night away... #

1096
00:51:01.000 --> 00:51:03.400
That was the skaters' anthem.

1097
00:51:03.400 --> 00:51:07.920
There was a skate obsession in the United States in '79, '80,

1098
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:10.880
where it was like, "I'm going to roller-skate!"

1099
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:14.760
A good song to roller-skate should feel like the floor to your skates,

1100
00:51:14.760 --> 00:51:18.920
it should be the foundation for all of that...flowing.

1101
00:51:18.920 --> 00:51:21.040
# Just take it slow

1102
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:25.720
# Cos we got so far to go

1103
00:51:25.720 --> 00:51:28.000
# When you feel that heat

1104
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:30.520
# And we're going to ride the boogie

1105
00:51:30.520 --> 00:51:33.920
# Share that beat of love

1106
00:51:33.920 --> 00:51:38.080
- # I wanna rock with you
- All night

1107
00:51:38.080 --> 00:51:41.560
- # Dance you into day
- Sunlight

1108
00:51:41.560 --> 00:51:46.240
- # I wanna rock with you
- All night

1109
00:51:46.240 --> 00:51:50.000
# Gonna rock the night away... #

1110
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.720
Rock With You seemed like there was symbolism behind the video.

1111
00:51:52.720 --> 00:51:56.200
They had a halo around the angels, the shiny suit,

1112
00:51:56.200 --> 00:51:57.880
he made that look cool.

1113
00:51:57.880 --> 00:51:59.440
I could never pull that off.

1114
00:51:59.440 --> 00:52:03.240
I can listen to Rock With You and know where I was

1115
00:52:03.240 --> 00:52:05.600
the first time I heard it, at Pegasus.

1116
00:52:05.600 --> 00:52:10.680
When that song came on, people just stopped in the club.

1117
00:52:10.680 --> 00:52:13.000
They just...froze.

1118
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:15.200
You know... And then slowly,

1119
00:52:15.200 --> 00:52:17.600
one by one, they got on the dance floor.

1120
00:52:20.120 --> 00:52:25.040
- # I wanna rock with you
- All night

1121
00:52:25.040 --> 00:52:27.160
- # Girl
- Sunlight

1122
00:52:27.160 --> 00:52:31.400
- # Yes, rock with you Rock with you, yeah
- All night

1123
00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:34.560
# Rock the night away

1124
00:52:34.560 --> 00:52:38.680
- # I wanna rock with you
- All night

1125
00:52:38.680 --> 00:52:42.040
- # Dance you into day
- Sunlight

1126
00:52:42.040 --> 00:52:45.880
# I wanna rock with you, yes

1127
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:48.400
# Rock the night away

1128
00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:52.920
- # Just feel that beat, feel the beat
- All night

1129
00:52:52.920 --> 00:52:56.760
- # Rock you into day
- Sunlight

1130
00:52:56.760 --> 00:53:00.720
- # I wanna rock
- All night

1131
00:53:00.720 --> 00:53:02.840
# Rock the night away

1132
00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:04.440
# Put 'em in the pocket, yeah

1133
00:53:04.440 --> 00:53:08.200
- # I wanna rock it, rock it, rock it
- All night

1134
00:53:08.200 --> 00:53:12.040
- # I wanna rock it, rock it, rock it
- Sunlight

1135
00:53:12.040 --> 00:53:15.080
- # I wanna rock it, rock it, rock it
- All night

1136
00:53:17.880 --> 00:53:20.920
# I wanna rock with you

1137
00:53:20.920 --> 00:53:23.560
# Come on, girl

1138
00:53:23.560 --> 00:53:26.480
# Rock with me, come on and...

1139
00:53:26.480 --> 00:53:29.000
# Heeeee... #

1140
00:53:30.120 --> 00:53:35.960
It's up-tempo but it's smooth. That's fast. That's fast.

1141
00:53:35.960 --> 00:53:40.000
It's hard to make up-tempo music where you can dance

1142
00:53:40.000 --> 00:53:42.520
and be emotional at the same time.

1143
00:53:42.520 --> 00:53:44.360
Most people just get into a groove

1144
00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:47.160
so most of the time you don't get that much of a real song there,

1145
00:53:47.160 --> 00:53:51.760
so they don't stand up as well as a good storytelling ballad.

1146
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:55.160
Through the years, you want stuff that's going to have legs, hold on,

1147
00:53:55.160 --> 00:53:57.640
and his up-tempo really does hold on

1148
00:53:57.640 --> 00:54:02.000
because he really crafted a real song on top of a great groove.

1149
00:54:02.000 --> 00:54:06.040
I loop that breathing exercise on Working Day And Night,

1150
00:54:06.040 --> 00:54:10.600
I loop that for at least a minute before I let that song go.

1151
00:54:10.600 --> 00:54:15.560
Like, I hold people at bay, like I'm holding back 12 pit bulls...

1152
00:54:15.560 --> 00:54:17.040
get 'em!

1153
00:54:17.040 --> 00:54:18.080
Ow!

1154
00:54:27.440 --> 00:54:29.280
I'm embarrassed to even say this

1155
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:34.520
but I used to dance by myself... Ha! ..to that song.

1156
00:54:38.240 --> 00:54:40.360
# Uh ah

1157
00:54:40.360 --> 00:54:42.600
# Uh ah

1158
00:54:49.000 --> 00:54:50.160
# Ooh ah

1159
00:54:50.160 --> 00:54:52.600
# Ooh, my honey

1160
00:54:52.600 --> 00:54:56.480
# You got me workin' day and night, ah

1161
00:54:56.480 --> 00:54:59.320
# Ooh, my sugar

1162
00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:03.240
# You got me workin' day and night, ah

1163
00:55:03.240 --> 00:55:05.680
# Scratch my shoulder

1164
00:55:05.680 --> 00:55:09.680
# It's aching, make it feel all right, ah

1165
00:55:09.680 --> 00:55:12.160
# When this is over

1166
00:55:12.160 --> 00:55:16.080
# Lovin' you will be so right, ah, uh

1167
00:55:16.080 --> 00:55:20.360
# I often wonder if lovin' you will be tonight

1168
00:55:20.360 --> 00:55:22.680
# Well, uh

1169
00:55:22.680 --> 00:55:25.160
# But what is love, girl

1170
00:55:25.160 --> 00:55:28.360
# If I'm always out of sight, ooh!

1171
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:32.400
# That's why you got me workin' day and night

1172
00:55:32.400 --> 00:55:36.000
# And I'll be workin' From sun up to midnight... #

1173
00:55:36.000 --> 00:55:37.600
# You got me working day and night. #

1174
00:55:37.600 --> 00:55:39.680
# You got me working Working day and night. #

1175
00:55:39.680 --> 00:55:42.640
You could tell where he was rhythmically

1176
00:55:42.640 --> 00:55:44.280
just by the ones he was writing.

1177
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:47.160
Really catchy, rhythmic dance songs.

1178
00:55:49.200 --> 00:55:53.920
Michael's reference is certainly American R&B and soul and funk,

1179
00:55:53.920 --> 00:55:56.200
but I also hear Africa in there.

1180
00:55:56.200 --> 00:55:57.520
You have to also remember

1181
00:55:57.520 --> 00:55:59.600
The Jackson 5 toured Africa in the '70s.

1182
00:55:59.600 --> 00:56:03.440
# You got me workin' day and night

1183
00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:05.120
- # And I'll be workin'
- Everybody!

1184
00:56:05.120 --> 00:56:06.840
# From sun up to midnight

1185
00:56:06.840 --> 00:56:10.200
- # You got me workin' Workin' day and night
- Oh, no!

1186
00:56:10.200 --> 00:56:11.280
# You got me workin'

1187
00:56:11.280 --> 00:56:13.600
- # Workin' day and night
- I'm so tired, tired

1188
00:56:13.600 --> 00:56:16.680
# You got me workin' Workin' day and night... #

1189
00:56:16.680 --> 00:56:19.440
- It's crazy...
- MIMICS HORN LINE

1190
00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:23.200
That was just the high watermark of horn lines to me.

1191
00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:41.280
There was all these instrumental stretches and breaks in these songs

1192
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:43.240
that give the musicians some shine too.

1193
00:56:43.240 --> 00:56:47.960
- David had this certain sound...
- That bite. He bent it...

1194
00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:49.200
He hit 'em so hard.

1195
00:56:49.200 --> 00:56:51.840
OK, David! You got this!

1196
00:57:32.160 --> 00:57:33.880
Sometimes he would take it upon himself

1197
00:57:33.880 --> 00:57:36.680
to bring the rhythm that he wanted and that really influenced me.

1198
00:57:36.680 --> 00:57:39.880
He always had an idea of what he wanted every instrument

1199
00:57:39.880 --> 00:57:42.160
to sound like, that's how he recorded.

1200
00:57:42.160 --> 00:57:44.760
You came in a studio and he told the guitar player...

1201
00:57:44.760 --> 00:57:47.880
SHE MIMICS "Working Day And Night"

1202
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:50.360
He would sing every part.

1203
00:57:53.040 --> 00:57:55.880
He didn't play it. But he can sing it.

1204
00:57:55.880 --> 00:57:57.880
And if you didn't play like he sang it,

1205
00:57:57.880 --> 00:58:00.560
he would sing it till you played it like he sang it.

1206
00:58:00.560 --> 00:58:02.000
Goddammit.

1207
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:04.800
I do believe deeply in perfection.

1208
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:08.200
I'm never satisfied. I'll cut a track, go back and back and back,

1209
00:58:08.200 --> 00:58:11.000
"Darn it, I should have done this!" It's number one on the charts,

1210
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:13.200
still screaming about what you should have done.

1211
00:58:13.200 --> 00:58:15.400
It's evident...when you see somebody's work,

1212
00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:18.520
you can see the details and if they actually truly love what they do.

1213
00:58:18.520 --> 00:58:20.640
If they really do pay attention to the craft.

1214
00:58:20.640 --> 00:58:22.320
Perfection was the name of the game,

1215
00:58:22.320 --> 00:58:25.640
it's about the content of what you do.

1216
00:58:25.640 --> 00:58:28.960
The quality, the heart, the soul, the love.

1217
00:58:28.960 --> 00:58:32.480
I think this generation, the perception has become skewed.

1218
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:34.080
The love for the craft

1219
00:58:34.080 --> 00:58:38.040
will come secondary to the love of fame and notoriety.

1220
00:58:38.040 --> 00:58:40.400
My generation - the Jordan generation,

1221
00:58:40.400 --> 00:58:42.320
Bird, Magic, Michael Jackson.

1222
00:58:42.320 --> 00:58:46.360
They focused on what they loved to do.

1223
00:58:46.360 --> 00:58:49.720
One of the hidden gems is Get On The Floor.

1224
00:58:49.720 --> 00:58:54.600
Which was co-penned by Louis Johnson and co-written with Michael.

1225
00:58:54.600 --> 00:58:57.920
I don't know if everybody knows this but you're also a composer.

1226
00:58:57.920 --> 00:59:01.320
One of my favourites was Michael Jackson's Get On The Floor.

1227
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:04.840
Originally that song was created by the bass, I just had that groove.

1228
00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:27.760
There were routines in the playground

1229
00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:30.240
and you know, I'm dating myself, OK,

1230
00:59:30.240 --> 00:59:32.600
but you would bring the little radio,

1231
00:59:32.600 --> 00:59:36.280
or sometimes if you were really tacky, you would bring the portable

1232
00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:41.160
record player, plop it down in the park, drop the needle, heck yeah.

1233
00:59:42.240 --> 00:59:45.120
If you were dancing to that song,

1234
00:59:45.120 --> 00:59:47.520
more than likely you were going home with somebody.

1235
00:59:47.520 --> 00:59:50.360
Because that's not a song you dance on your own to.

1236
00:59:50.360 --> 00:59:53.360
You don't dance to Get On The Floor by yourself.

1237
00:59:53.360 --> 00:59:55.680
# Dance across the floor

1238
00:59:57.600 --> 00:59:59.760
# Cos there's a chance for chances

1239
00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:01.320
# And the chance is choosin'

1240
01:00:01.320 --> 01:00:05.040
# And I sure would like just to groove with you

1241
01:00:05.040 --> 01:00:07.120
# So get on the floor

1242
01:00:09.120 --> 01:00:11.400
# And dance with me... #

1243
01:00:11.400 --> 01:00:14.600
Off The Wall is a DJ's dream.

1244
01:00:14.600 --> 01:00:18.920
The A-side seems to have been tailor-made for the dance floor.

1245
01:00:18.920 --> 01:00:20.960
You basically have five songs.

1246
01:00:20.960 --> 01:00:23.520
The first four songs on side one,

1247
01:00:23.520 --> 01:00:26.520
and the first song on side two, Off The Wall.

1248
01:00:26.520 --> 01:00:29.040
My favourite record on Off The Wall -

1249
01:00:29.040 --> 01:00:30.680
I like Off The Wall.

1250
01:00:30.680 --> 01:00:32.600
That's one of my favourite records.

1251
01:00:32.600 --> 01:00:35.680
I took a chance with a composer

1252
01:00:35.680 --> 01:00:37.960
that I have loved his work for a long time,

1253
01:00:37.960 --> 01:00:41.440
and I could never figure out how he could be from Grimsby, England,

1254
01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:44.760
living in Worms, Germany, and understand Ain't No Half-Steppin,

1255
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:47.440
you know, and all those different terms that he was writing.

1256
01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:49.240
Just incredible talent.

1257
01:00:49.240 --> 01:00:51.680
He ended up in Germany, and being turned on to soul music

1258
01:00:51.680 --> 01:00:53.840
by a bunch of the black army people that were there.

1259
01:00:53.840 --> 01:00:55.960
- INTERVIEWER: Black American soldiers?
- Yeah.

1260
01:00:55.960 --> 01:00:58.800
And going, "Wow, this is a lot more interesting than what I'm doing,

1261
01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:00.320
"and girls come to these shows."

1262
01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:01.840
In early Heatwave,

1263
01:01:01.840 --> 01:01:04.120
you can hear those influences

1264
01:01:04.120 --> 01:01:05.640
in songs he wrote for Michael.

1265
01:01:05.640 --> 01:01:07.720
I mean, it's just a natural progression.

1266
01:01:07.720 --> 01:01:10.480
We recorded Burn This Disco Out,

1267
01:01:10.480 --> 01:01:13.440
Off The Wall, and Rock With You.

1268
01:01:13.440 --> 01:01:14.600
Wow.

1269
01:01:14.600 --> 01:01:15.880
HE LAUGHS

1270
01:01:15.880 --> 01:01:17.600
Rod Temperton did good.

1271
01:01:17.600 --> 01:01:20.160
Off The Wall is an example of him bringing that

1272
01:01:20.160 --> 01:01:24.400
slightly, like, proggy fusion aspect to it.

1273
01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:26.880
It's a really unconventional start for a disco record,

1274
01:01:26.880 --> 01:01:29.720
especially, like, the title track of an album, it starts with that.

1275
01:01:29.720 --> 01:01:31.800
It starts on the offbeat, it starts on the two,

1276
01:01:31.800 --> 01:01:34.040
it has that weird vocal thing in the background.

1277
01:01:34.040 --> 01:01:35.240
It's totally proggy.

1278
01:01:35.240 --> 01:01:37.640
That intro with the kind of ghoulish voices and so on.

1279
01:01:37.640 --> 01:01:39.880
You start to hear that again, of course, on Thriller,

1280
01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:41.280
with the Vincent Price.

1281
01:01:47.560 --> 01:01:50.000
# When the world is on your shoulder

1282
01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:54.480
# Gotta straighten up your act and boogie down

1283
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:57.000
# If you can't get with the feeling

1284
01:01:58.200 --> 01:02:01.480
# Then there ain't no-one who's gonna put you down

1285
01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:05.200
# Cos we're the party people night and day

1286
01:02:05.200 --> 01:02:08.000
# Livin' crazy, that's the only way

1287
01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:09.840
# So tonight

1288
01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:13.160
# Gotta leave that nine to five up on the shelf

1289
01:02:13.160 --> 01:02:15.480
# And just enjoy yourself

1290
01:02:15.480 --> 01:02:17.080
# Groove

1291
01:02:17.080 --> 01:02:19.840
# Let the madness in the music get to you

1292
01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:22.720
# Life ain't so bad at all

1293
01:02:22.720 --> 01:02:24.560
# If you live it off the wall

1294
01:02:24.560 --> 01:02:26.880
# Life ain't so bad at all

1295
01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:28.000
# Ooh

1296
01:02:28.000 --> 01:02:30.120
- # Live your life off the wall
- Yeah

1297
01:02:31.200 --> 01:02:33.840
# Do what you want to do

1298
01:02:33.840 --> 01:02:35.760
# There ain't no rules

1299
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:38.480
- # It's up to you
- Ain't no rules, it's all up to you

1300
01:02:38.480 --> 01:02:41.080
# It's time to come alive

1301
01:02:41.080 --> 01:02:45.000
# And party on right through the night. #

1302
01:02:48.880 --> 01:02:53.280
Girlfriend was a song on the London Town album by Paul McCartney.

1303
01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:55.840
"Girlfriend, I'mma tell your boyfriend."

1304
01:02:55.840 --> 01:02:57.600
- SHE LAUGHS
- Love it.

1305
01:02:57.600 --> 01:02:59.880
# Girlfriend

1306
01:02:59.880 --> 01:03:03.160
# I'm gonna tell your boyfriend

1307
01:03:03.160 --> 01:03:05.200
# Yeah... #

1308
01:03:05.200 --> 01:03:08.000
I felt like Michael was singing to me on that one, I did.

1309
01:03:08.000 --> 01:03:11.400
If we go out together and a bunch of girls start following me,

1310
01:03:11.400 --> 01:03:14.720
let's hear what you'd say to them to make them go away.

1311
01:03:14.720 --> 01:03:17.800
Get away from him. He's mine, not yours.

1312
01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:20.400
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

1313
01:03:23.800 --> 01:03:28.480
Um, same question, number two.

1314
01:03:28.480 --> 01:03:32.280
Yo, listen, OK? Michael Jackson is mine!

1315
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:34.280
LAUGHTER

1316
01:03:36.640 --> 01:03:39.920
Some of the songs that I sing, my favourite is ballads -

1317
01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:42.080
I kind of listen to the words,

1318
01:03:42.080 --> 01:03:44.120
and it's really relating something.

1319
01:03:44.120 --> 01:03:47.240
I wrote She's Out Of My Life as a result of being

1320
01:03:47.240 --> 01:03:50.120
very much in love with a wonderful young woman.

1321
01:03:50.120 --> 01:03:53.960
You ever get so upset that you're speaking to yourself out loud?

1322
01:03:53.960 --> 01:03:57.040
Well, I was. I was in the car, on the Pasadena freeway,

1323
01:03:57.040 --> 01:03:59.600
and I'm saying, "Man, she was there for you,

1324
01:03:59.600 --> 01:04:01.840
"she loved you, she wanted to marry you.

1325
01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:05.200
"You're the one who said no. Face it, she's out of your life."

1326
01:04:05.200 --> 01:04:08.000
Saturday morning, the phone rings, and it's Q, and he says,

1327
01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:10.400
"Hey, man, you been writing?" And I played the song,

1328
01:04:10.400 --> 01:04:13.000
and it's ringing out, and he said, "Play it again."

1329
01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:15.600
I played it again. Played it eight times in a row.

1330
01:04:15.600 --> 01:04:18.000
At the end of it he said, "What are you going to do with it?"

1331
01:04:18.000 --> 01:04:20.400
I said, "Well, I made a deal with Snuffy yesterday.

1332
01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:22.200
"He's going to do it with Sinatra."

1333
01:04:22.200 --> 01:04:24.200
And he says, this Q-ism,

1334
01:04:24.200 --> 01:04:26.440
"Sinatra'll do it anyway." And I said,

1335
01:04:26.440 --> 01:04:28.280
"OK, Q, then who do you want to do it with?"

1336
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:31.640
He said, "I haven't got a clue." He said, "Man, if you'll trust me,

1337
01:04:31.640 --> 01:04:34.120
"I promise you

1338
01:04:34.120 --> 01:04:37.560
"an unforgettable recording of this song."

1339
01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:41.840
And we sat on it for almost two years, Spike.

1340
01:04:41.840 --> 01:04:44.320
To write a great ballad, first of all, lyrically,

1341
01:04:44.320 --> 01:04:47.160
the content has to connect, and to me,

1342
01:04:47.160 --> 01:04:49.400
part of what makes a song connect

1343
01:04:49.400 --> 01:04:51.840
is that it's personal,

1344
01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:53.960
but it's also universal.

1345
01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:57.040
Michael Jackson - yes, he was a great entertainer,

1346
01:04:57.040 --> 01:04:58.440
he was a great dancer,

1347
01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:00.360
but he was also a great singer.

1348
01:05:00.360 --> 01:05:02.800
Not a good singer, but a great singer.

1349
01:05:02.800 --> 01:05:05.480
I liked his performance on She's Out Of My Life.

1350
01:05:06.960 --> 01:05:08.360
It was really emotional.

1351
01:05:08.360 --> 01:05:12.400
The quality of Michael's voice

1352
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:15.800
was so incredibly pure.

1353
01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:19.640
# She's out of my life

1354
01:05:22.960 --> 01:05:27.600
# She's out of my life

1355
01:05:29.600 --> 01:05:35.680
# And I don't know whether to laugh or cry

1356
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:42.760
# I don't know whether to live or die

1357
01:05:42.760 --> 01:05:47.720
# And it cuts like a knife

1358
01:05:47.720 --> 01:05:53.480
# She's out of my life. #

1359
01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:57.000
I cried every time that he performed She's Out Of My Life,

1360
01:05:57.000 --> 01:05:59.040
and he would cry, too.

1361
01:05:59.040 --> 01:06:01.800
Everyone relates She's Out Of My Life to Eddie Murphy, right?

1362
01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:05.160
Anyone who was growing up in the '80s - we saw Delirious first.

1363
01:06:05.160 --> 01:06:07.480
That's Michael's hook, is his sensitivity.

1364
01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:10.120
Lots of women be saying, "Michael's just so sensitive."

1365
01:06:10.120 --> 01:06:11.200
LAUGHTER

1366
01:06:11.200 --> 01:06:13.680
They eat that shit up. Mike knows, too. He be using women.

1367
01:06:13.680 --> 01:06:16.640
In concerts I've seen Mike walk up to girls in the audience and say...

1368
01:06:16.640 --> 01:06:18.640
Can I come down there?

1369
01:06:18.640 --> 01:06:21.040
And the women go, "Ahhhhhhh!"

1370
01:06:21.040 --> 01:06:23.040
APPLAUSE

1371
01:06:23.040 --> 01:06:25.920
Then if you don't scream, Michael'll get real sensitive

1372
01:06:25.920 --> 01:06:27.840
and cry on your ass.

1373
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:30.640
Ever hear that record She's Out Of My Life? Michael go...

1374
01:06:30.640 --> 01:06:32.880
- IMITATING MICHAEL'S VOICE:
- # So I've learned

1375
01:06:32.880 --> 01:06:35.800
# That love's not possession

1376
01:06:35.800 --> 01:06:38.920
# And I've learned

1377
01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:41.000
# That love won't wait... #

1378
01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:43.080
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

1379
01:06:43.080 --> 01:06:45.520
# Now I've learned

1380
01:06:45.520 --> 01:06:48.640
# That love needs expression

1381
01:06:48.640 --> 01:06:54.240
# But I've learned too late

1382
01:06:54.240 --> 01:07:00.880
# And she's out of my life

1383
01:07:04.960 --> 01:07:10.160
# She's out of my life

1384
01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:15.400
# Damned indecision

1385
01:07:15.400 --> 01:07:19.000
# And cursed pride

1386
01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:22.080
# Kept my love for her

1387
01:07:22.080 --> 01:07:25.560
# Locked deep inside

1388
01:07:25.560 --> 01:07:30.640
# And it cuts like a knife

1389
01:07:32.120 --> 01:07:37.800
# She's out of my...

1390
01:07:37.800 --> 01:07:41.400
CROWD SCREAMS

1391
01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:05.000
# Life

1392
01:08:05.000 --> 01:08:11.720
# Mmmm, mmmm... #

1393
01:08:11.720 --> 01:08:15.400
CROWD SCREAMS AND CHEERS

1394
01:08:15.400 --> 01:08:17.280
HE SOBS

1395
01:08:17.280 --> 01:08:19.760
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

1396
01:08:24.200 --> 01:08:26.480
HE SOBS

1397
01:08:33.880 --> 01:08:37.080
- IMITATING MICHAEL'S VOICE:
- Tito, get me some tissue.

1398
01:08:37.080 --> 01:08:39.280
And I had an opportunity to listen to the stems

1399
01:08:39.280 --> 01:08:41.040
where he's trying different takes,

1400
01:08:41.040 --> 01:08:42.840
and he actually apologises

1401
01:08:42.840 --> 01:08:44.280
for messing the song up.

1402
01:08:46.520 --> 01:08:48.160
I'm sorry I messed it up.

1403
01:08:48.160 --> 01:08:50.320
It was amazing, cos every time he sang it he cried,

1404
01:08:50.320 --> 01:08:53.000
and I was trying to pick out what relationship he had, you know,

1405
01:08:53.000 --> 01:08:54.520
that he could identify with that.

1406
01:08:54.520 --> 01:08:56.160
He did it two or three times and said,

1407
01:08:56.160 --> 01:08:58.960
"That's the way it's supposed to be," and just let it stay in there.

1408
01:08:58.960 --> 01:09:01.480
A lesser producer would have milked it for all it's worth,

1409
01:09:01.480 --> 01:09:04.240
milked all that drama for all it's worth.

1410
01:09:04.240 --> 01:09:06.720
Like, trust me, if Puffy were producing

1411
01:09:06.720 --> 01:09:09.120
- She's Out Of My Life...
- LAUGHTER

1412
01:09:09.120 --> 01:09:10.800
Puffy would have had the whole...

1413
01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:14.760
He would've had Kleenex, like, sponsor the tour.

1414
01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:17.760
You had people talking about, "Well, what was he crying about?"

1415
01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:20.400
Who was he talking about? Is he talking about Brooke Shields?

1416
01:09:20.400 --> 01:09:21.800
What girl is he talking about?

1417
01:09:21.800 --> 01:09:24.040
You know, is he still talking about Ben, that rat?

1418
01:09:24.040 --> 01:09:26.720
We'd seen him out publicly with Stephanie Mills,

1419
01:09:26.720 --> 01:09:28.600
we'd seen him out with Tatum O'Neal,

1420
01:09:28.600 --> 01:09:30.840
with Maureen McCormick from The Brady Bunch.

1421
01:09:30.840 --> 01:09:32.480
Girls would get together, like,

1422
01:09:32.480 --> 01:09:34.920
"I wonder who he's talking about," you know what I mean?

1423
01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:36.880
And you would look at the Tiger Beat magazine

1424
01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:38.920
to look for the gossip and everything.

1425
01:09:38.920 --> 01:09:41.560
"Who made Michael cry?" That's how we took it.

1426
01:09:41.560 --> 01:09:44.760
Not that I made Michael cry, cos I would never make Michael cry.

1427
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:48.240
She's Out Of My Life is,

1428
01:09:48.240 --> 01:09:50.160
in my opinion,

1429
01:09:50.160 --> 01:09:53.240
one of the two songs on Off The Wall

1430
01:09:53.240 --> 01:09:55.680
that there's nothing on Thriller that tops it.

1431
01:09:55.680 --> 01:09:57.720
Quiet storm was huge in the 1970s,

1432
01:09:57.720 --> 01:10:00.240
which was a kind of radio format of black music

1433
01:10:00.240 --> 01:10:03.000
that celebrated intimacy and sensuality and ambience,

1434
01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:04.280
softness and quietude.

1435
01:10:04.280 --> 01:10:06.880
Can't Help It was really the quiet storm demographic, right?

1436
01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:09.480
It was really the kind of late-night boudoir romance thing.

1437
01:10:09.480 --> 01:10:13.280
It's the first time that you really hear Michael sounding like...

1438
01:10:13.280 --> 01:10:15.200
to me, sounding like an adult.

1439
01:10:15.200 --> 01:10:18.880
And sounding outside of his R&B thing.

1440
01:10:18.880 --> 01:10:20.360
It's jazzy.

1441
01:10:20.360 --> 01:10:22.280
Susaye Greene had started working on it.

1442
01:10:22.280 --> 01:10:24.840
She was in The Supremes, and had also sung with Stevie.

1443
01:10:24.840 --> 01:10:27.520
It could have fit on Songs In The Key Of Life, really.

1444
01:10:27.520 --> 01:10:30.640
That was supposed to be one of the songs on Songs In The Key Of Life.

1445
01:10:30.640 --> 01:10:32.160
- Ooh!
- See, I didn't know that!

1446
01:10:32.160 --> 01:10:33.560
He had the...

1447
01:10:33.560 --> 01:10:36.240
- SHE SINGS:
- "I can't help it if I wanted to" - the hook.

1448
01:10:36.240 --> 01:10:38.240
Yeah, I think she wrote a lot of the lyrics

1449
01:10:38.240 --> 01:10:39.880
when we actually were in the studio,

1450
01:10:39.880 --> 01:10:41.680
- messing around with it.
- That's right.

1451
01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:48.240
HE HUMS I Can't Help It

1452
01:10:52.360 --> 01:10:54.520
# I can't, mmm, mmm... #

1453
01:10:54.520 --> 01:10:56.720
HE HUMS

1454
01:10:58.480 --> 01:11:01.520
I Can't Help It is my favourite. Stevie overdid it with that song.

1455
01:11:01.520 --> 01:11:04.480
The nature of the chords is very nocturnal, you know?

1456
01:11:04.480 --> 01:11:06.400
It doesn't sound like a sunny day to me.

1457
01:11:06.400 --> 01:11:11.080
It sounds like a beautiful paradise evening,

1458
01:11:11.080 --> 01:11:14.160
somewhere untainted by the humans, you know?

1459
01:11:14.160 --> 01:11:16.360
Mystical world.

1460
01:11:16.360 --> 01:11:18.680
You know, unicorns walking past and shit.

1461
01:11:18.680 --> 01:11:23.520
My sister Renee had been hearing me play this cassette.

1462
01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:25.240
She and Michael were friends.

1463
01:11:25.240 --> 01:11:28.080
And she took it over to let Michael hear it,

1464
01:11:28.080 --> 01:11:29.920
and I think it was great that he did it.

1465
01:11:29.920 --> 01:11:31.840
I mean, really, he did an incredible job.

1466
01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:33.600
The melodies are very seductive.

1467
01:11:33.600 --> 01:11:36.720
They carry some of those signature Stevie lines,

1468
01:11:36.720 --> 01:11:38.880
but also the signature Stevie chords.

1469
01:11:38.880 --> 01:11:40.600
I really believed in the album.

1470
01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:42.720
First of all, I believe in Michael Jackson.

1471
01:11:42.720 --> 01:11:44.760
Stevie Wonder. Love Stevie Wonder.

1472
01:11:44.760 --> 01:11:47.440
Being with Stevie Wonder. Being in his sessions,

1473
01:11:47.440 --> 01:11:50.720
just sitting in and learning, just is incredible.

1474
01:11:50.720 --> 01:11:53.520
You could put on I Can't Help It now and I'd still find something

1475
01:11:53.520 --> 01:11:55.680
I haven't heard, or it will remind me of something,

1476
01:11:55.680 --> 01:11:58.000
or the warmth of the bassline would just be, like...

1477
01:11:58.000 --> 01:11:59.520
just kind of wash over you.

1478
01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:02.160
It's just, like, you don't get sick of that music.

1479
01:12:02.160 --> 01:12:06.880
I did a record back in 1977.

1480
01:12:06.880 --> 01:12:09.000
We did It's The Falling In Love.

1481
01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:12.160
- We co-wrote it together, and I know you played on it.
- Yep.

1482
01:12:12.160 --> 01:12:15.920
- I think my record served as a nice...
- Demo.
- As a demo.

1483
01:12:15.920 --> 01:12:20.160
Patti Austin was a singer in the Quincy Jones arsenal.

1484
01:12:20.160 --> 01:12:22.880
The very first time that I've heard Patti Austin's voice

1485
01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:25.080
was It's The Falling In Love.

1486
01:12:25.080 --> 01:12:27.680
The thing that really steeps a record in its era

1487
01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:30.680
and that can make it sound dated is relying heavily

1488
01:12:30.680 --> 01:12:33.160
on very specific technology of the time.

1489
01:12:33.160 --> 01:12:36.080
And in the '80s, it was very much about '80s reverbs.

1490
01:12:36.080 --> 01:12:39.560
In the late '70s, you had these big, massive disco claps.

1491
01:12:39.560 --> 01:12:42.120
This album was perhaps, maybe,

1492
01:12:42.120 --> 01:12:45.560
one false step away from being a very dated disco record.

1493
01:12:45.560 --> 01:12:48.040
Didn't have any of those, like, tricks or gimmicks.

1494
01:12:48.040 --> 01:12:50.920
It was pretty much... Even though it was immaculately arranged,

1495
01:12:50.920 --> 01:12:52.240
and all the percussive parts,

1496
01:12:52.240 --> 01:12:54.160
and all the way the parts worked together,

1497
01:12:54.160 --> 01:12:56.840
there's nothing other than a bunch of dudes

1498
01:12:56.840 --> 01:12:59.640
playing the shit out of a song in a room. That will never date.

1499
01:12:59.640 --> 01:13:01.400
In a lot of ways Off The Wall

1500
01:13:01.400 --> 01:13:03.880
is probably the culmination

1501
01:13:03.880 --> 01:13:06.760
of classic disco.

1502
01:13:06.760 --> 01:13:09.560
Came out in August 1979 -

1503
01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:13.600
the Disco Sucks movement started just the month before in July,

1504
01:13:13.600 --> 01:13:17.240
where shock DJ Steve Dahl in Chicago

1505
01:13:17.240 --> 01:13:19.040
gathered a lot of people together

1506
01:13:19.040 --> 01:13:21.840
at Comiskey Park in Chicago to burn disco records,

1507
01:13:21.840 --> 01:13:24.240
which was a really, I think, implicitly racist

1508
01:13:24.240 --> 01:13:26.480
and kind of homophobic movement.

1509
01:13:26.480 --> 01:13:29.760
People wanted to shift the dial of popular music

1510
01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:32.080
back to where they felt comfortable,

1511
01:13:32.080 --> 01:13:35.800
which was not black, not gay, not Latino.

1512
01:13:35.800 --> 01:13:38.480
Burn This Disco Out actually might have been an apt title,

1513
01:13:38.480 --> 01:13:41.680
because it was coming literally at the end of the disco era.

1514
01:13:41.680 --> 01:13:44.240
Just at the edge of being a disco record,

1515
01:13:44.240 --> 01:13:46.240
but moving the genre forward.

1516
01:13:46.240 --> 01:13:50.240
Far from the disco factory music

1517
01:13:50.240 --> 01:13:52.240
that was just churning out factory beats.

1518
01:13:52.240 --> 01:13:54.920
You can feel that kind of visceral energy.

1519
01:13:54.920 --> 01:13:57.760
I mean, Off The Wall really is like lightning in a bottle.

1520
01:13:57.760 --> 01:14:00.880
You really capture Michael Jackson at 20 years old

1521
01:14:00.880 --> 01:14:03.640
with all of that excitement and energy and passion.

1522
01:14:03.640 --> 01:14:06.000
That still really comes through on that record.

1523
01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:09.640
This is the very last 8-track that my parents bought me

1524
01:14:09.640 --> 01:14:11.560
before I stopped buying 8-tracks.

1525
01:14:11.560 --> 01:14:14.080
I remember Off The Wall coming out

1526
01:14:14.080 --> 01:14:16.840
the second week of August in 1979.

1527
01:14:16.840 --> 01:14:20.680
Departure album is sort of an album that is in a person's canon

1528
01:14:20.680 --> 01:14:24.200
in their career of which they make a 180 turn

1529
01:14:24.200 --> 01:14:25.880
from what they were known from.

1530
01:14:25.880 --> 01:14:27.960
He was no longer the teenybopper act,

1531
01:14:27.960 --> 01:14:32.000
he was no longer the socially shy, awkward, maladjusted guy with acne.

1532
01:14:32.000 --> 01:14:34.880
He was suddenly exuberant, confident.

1533
01:14:34.880 --> 01:14:36.920
You look at the album cover of Off The Wall -

1534
01:14:36.920 --> 01:14:39.240
it's like his prom picture. He's in a suit and tie

1535
01:14:39.240 --> 01:14:41.400
in a kind of Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis mould.

1536
01:14:41.400 --> 01:14:43.080
Now he's this freewheeling playboy

1537
01:14:43.080 --> 01:14:45.400
that you can imagine out on the streets of New York.

1538
01:14:45.400 --> 01:14:46.800
Again, life-changing.

1539
01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:48.600
I think sophisticated,

1540
01:14:48.600 --> 01:14:50.240
I think glamour,

1541
01:14:50.240 --> 01:14:52.120
I think provocateur,

1542
01:14:52.120 --> 01:14:55.400
I think everything that I wanted to be.

1543
01:14:55.400 --> 01:14:57.600
Oh, yeah, I'm interested in promotion.

1544
01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:00.600
I want to do things that have never been done before.

1545
01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:04.040
If it wasn't for promotion, who would know about The Jackson 5?

1546
01:15:04.040 --> 01:15:06.600
Who would know that we exist?

1547
01:15:06.600 --> 01:15:10.040
I wouldn't be able to translate my music to different countries -

1548
01:15:10.040 --> 01:15:13.200
Africa, Japan, New Zealand, Scotland,

1549
01:15:13.200 --> 01:15:15.520
all the way to Australia.

1550
01:15:15.520 --> 01:15:18.040
There is a universal core in music that I think transcends

1551
01:15:18.040 --> 01:15:19.440
even what a crossover is about.

1552
01:15:19.440 --> 01:15:22.640
Here we view a crossover as being, you know, black and white markets,

1553
01:15:22.640 --> 01:15:24.480
which we've been faced with for years,

1554
01:15:24.480 --> 01:15:26.800
but I think Michael's thing went even past that.

1555
01:15:26.800 --> 01:15:29.600
When you get into Argentina and Israel and Spain

1556
01:15:29.600 --> 01:15:31.280
and Scandinavia and Australia.

1557
01:15:31.280 --> 01:15:33.680
I tell people fashion and music is a universal language.

1558
01:15:33.680 --> 01:15:35.400
Wherever you go, you're going to hear

1559
01:15:35.400 --> 01:15:37.120
the same songs in certain countries,

1560
01:15:37.120 --> 01:15:39.280
and when people come together for those songs,

1561
01:15:39.280 --> 01:15:41.040
they're all happy, they're all at peace.

1562
01:15:41.040 --> 01:15:42.920
Cos a lot of people don't even speak English

1563
01:15:42.920 --> 01:15:45.160
when you travel the globe, but they know the song,

1564
01:15:45.160 --> 01:15:47.840
they know the music, and they'll learn the lyrics somehow.

1565
01:15:47.840 --> 01:15:49.880
And that's just so wonderful,

1566
01:15:49.880 --> 01:15:52.600
how you can bring people together just through your music.

1567
01:15:52.600 --> 01:15:55.160
Michael Jackson can come out on stage and not say anything,

1568
01:15:55.160 --> 01:15:58.160
and you'd know that he cared. 100,000 people in an Olympic stadium

1569
01:15:58.160 --> 01:15:59.720
feel that he's right there for them.

1570
01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:01.240
Everyone thinks, you know,

1571
01:16:01.240 --> 01:16:03.880
like, they've had such a personal connection with him.

1572
01:16:03.880 --> 01:16:06.320
But that's how great he was.

1573
01:16:06.320 --> 01:16:07.960
He made you feel like that.

1574
01:16:07.960 --> 01:16:10.040
Michael just inspired me to be a better person.

1575
01:16:10.040 --> 01:16:12.520
I actually do believe that the blessing that the Lord

1576
01:16:12.520 --> 01:16:14.560
gave this family, the musical blessing -

1577
01:16:14.560 --> 01:16:16.800
the true mission behind all of that, I believe,

1578
01:16:16.800 --> 01:16:19.520
is to unify the world together through your music as one.

1579
01:16:19.520 --> 01:16:21.800
And it's about changing the world

1580
01:16:21.800 --> 01:16:24.520
for a better place for our kids to grow up in.

1581
01:16:24.520 --> 01:16:26.760
He had seen what had happened to artists like

1582
01:16:26.760 --> 01:16:29.640
James Brown, Little Richard, Jackie Wilson -

1583
01:16:29.640 --> 01:16:31.960
sometimes the industry wasn't fair to black artists.

1584
01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:33.880
I remember fighting in a meeting, like,

1585
01:16:33.880 --> 01:16:36.680
"How come Michael's not on the cover of People magazine?

1586
01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:39.000
"How come he's not on the cover of Us?

1587
01:16:39.000 --> 01:16:42.200
Pop radio stations didn't want to play Off The Wall in the beginning.

1588
01:16:42.200 --> 01:16:43.720
Publicity lady would tell me,

1589
01:16:43.720 --> 01:16:46.800
"Well, if a black person is put on the cover of these magazines,

1590
01:16:46.800 --> 01:16:48.240
"they won't sell."

1591
01:16:48.240 --> 01:16:51.280
Michael Jackson is a viable artist all by himself,

1592
01:16:51.280 --> 01:16:53.440
and if they gave him the opportunity,

1593
01:16:53.440 --> 01:16:56.400
he could win the radio stations over. And he did.

1594
01:16:56.400 --> 01:16:58.600
He just made us feel like this is...

1595
01:16:58.600 --> 01:17:01.240
Where we are is where we always were. And we weren't.

1596
01:17:01.240 --> 01:17:04.840
There are kids that, like, were born when Obama was in office,

1597
01:17:04.840 --> 01:17:07.840
so they don't understand a world where there was a white president.

1598
01:17:07.840 --> 01:17:09.640
They don't even know what that feels like.

1599
01:17:09.640 --> 01:17:13.200
I didn't know what it felt like to not have black pop artists,

1600
01:17:13.200 --> 01:17:16.680
because he made us feel and believe that

1601
01:17:16.680 --> 01:17:18.000
that was just the norm.

1602
01:17:18.000 --> 01:17:21.760
He took black music to a place where it became human music.

1603
01:17:21.760 --> 01:17:23.080
Music has no colour,

1604
01:17:23.080 --> 01:17:24.760
and it shouldn't have colour,

1605
01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:26.640
and I don't believe in that.

1606
01:17:26.640 --> 01:17:29.560
What I do, I don't want it labelled black or white.

1607
01:17:29.560 --> 01:17:31.760
I want it labelled, it's music.

1608
01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:33.320
It was a simpler time,

1609
01:17:33.320 --> 01:17:36.520
and radio had everything to do with it.

1610
01:17:36.520 --> 01:17:39.560
Hey, let's go out with some up-tempo first,

1611
01:17:39.560 --> 01:17:43.160
get ourselves positioned, bang, then we'll come in with that ballad.

1612
01:17:43.160 --> 01:17:46.280
And you know, you'll go gold. You'll go platinum.

1613
01:17:46.280 --> 01:17:49.200
Four singles in the top 10 and Billboard,

1614
01:17:49.200 --> 01:17:51.800
not counting it being number one on R&B radio stations.

1615
01:17:51.800 --> 01:17:53.520
It had never been done before.

1616
01:17:53.520 --> 01:17:56.320
Some people looked at it as a disco album,

1617
01:17:56.320 --> 01:17:58.720
which in retrospect is kind of foolish,

1618
01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:00.440
because it's one of the most

1619
01:18:00.440 --> 01:18:03.080
creatively influential albums in history.

1620
01:18:03.080 --> 01:18:07.040
You look back at the awards for Off The Wall, they're R&B awards.

1621
01:18:07.040 --> 01:18:10.440
The music industry, still very segregated at the time,

1622
01:18:10.440 --> 01:18:13.720
and Michael was only nominated for R&B awards, and he won.

1623
01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:17.920
# Fever

1624
01:18:18.960 --> 01:18:21.560
# Temperature's risin' now

1625
01:18:23.280 --> 01:18:26.240
# Power Oh, power

1626
01:18:26.240 --> 01:18:28.200
# Is the force, the vow... #

1627
01:18:29.400 --> 01:18:30.600
He thought it wasn't fair.

1628
01:18:30.600 --> 01:18:32.600
He thought they'd snubbed him. It wasn't fair.

1629
01:18:32.600 --> 01:18:34.160
He came and he told me, he said,

1630
01:18:34.160 --> 01:18:37.400
"Mother, next year, they're going to have to give it to me."

1631
01:18:37.400 --> 01:18:40.040
- INTERVIEWER:
- And that was Thriller, huh?
- That's right.

1632
01:18:40.040 --> 01:18:43.600
Off The Wall really kind of set the blueprint for R&B,

1633
01:18:43.600 --> 01:18:46.800
and I think most artists today acknowledge that.

1634
01:18:46.800 --> 01:18:50.200
It's hard to come up with something fresh and new all the time.

1635
01:18:50.200 --> 01:18:52.240
They go back and they say, "What was great?

1636
01:18:52.240 --> 01:18:53.800
"What was done that was just great?"

1637
01:18:53.800 --> 01:18:56.320
And they find themselves listening to Off The Wall.

1638
01:18:56.320 --> 01:18:58.960
And then they take a little piece, and they say,

1639
01:18:58.960 --> 01:19:01.320
"See how he did this? We've got to do that.

1640
01:19:01.320 --> 01:19:03.680
"See how they made this sound? We've got to do that."

1641
01:19:03.680 --> 01:19:05.120
I do that, so I know.

1642
01:19:05.120 --> 01:19:07.680
That album, you hear it in music all the time.

1643
01:19:07.680 --> 01:19:09.720
Pharrell to Justin Timberlake.

1644
01:19:09.720 --> 01:19:12.560
My music would not be here if it weren't for his influence,

1645
01:19:12.560 --> 01:19:15.000
Off The Wall and the next album after that as well.

1646
01:19:15.000 --> 01:19:16.600
Like, I wouldn't have music.

1647
01:19:16.600 --> 01:19:18.920
I don't think there's any way there's any other record

1648
01:19:18.920 --> 01:19:21.800
I've played more music from, in the course of 20 years of DJing.

1649
01:19:21.800 --> 01:19:26.680
10,000 to 15,000 times, I have released the vinyl on those songs.

1650
01:19:26.680 --> 01:19:29.080
Off The Wall is the album I still play to this day.

1651
01:19:29.080 --> 01:19:30.640
It's the album that I put on

1652
01:19:30.640 --> 01:19:32.720
when I want to teach my daughter how to dance.

1653
01:19:32.720 --> 01:19:35.320
It was soul music's epoch of magic realism.

1654
01:19:35.320 --> 01:19:38.400
And when I say magic realism, I mean it was transformative.

1655
01:19:38.400 --> 01:19:39.920
It takes you someplace else.

1656
01:19:39.920 --> 01:19:42.040
It's so rich, musically.

1657
01:19:42.040 --> 01:19:44.640
The arrangements, the singing, the background vocals.

1658
01:19:44.640 --> 01:19:46.320
Michael taught me, melody's king.

1659
01:19:46.320 --> 01:19:49.960
He was like, babies don't sing lyrics.

1660
01:19:49.960 --> 01:19:51.440
They hum melody.

1661
01:19:51.440 --> 01:19:53.400
A-B-C-D-E-F-G -

1662
01:19:53.400 --> 01:19:55.760
they may not know all the letters in the alphabet,

1663
01:19:55.760 --> 01:19:57.760
but they know that melody to that song.

1664
01:19:57.760 --> 01:19:59.080
That was the way I saw music.

1665
01:19:59.080 --> 01:20:01.480
I always saw music as, like, these little portals.

1666
01:20:01.480 --> 01:20:02.840
It's like, you listen to a song -

1667
01:20:02.840 --> 01:20:05.160
OK, I'm going to take you into this land, every time.

1668
01:20:05.160 --> 01:20:08.480
In its first year alone, that album sold over six million copies.

1669
01:20:08.480 --> 01:20:11.280
It's been overshadowed because of the Thriller album.

1670
01:20:11.280 --> 01:20:14.440
There would be no Thriller without Off The Wall. Everybody knows that.

1671
01:20:14.440 --> 01:20:17.480
When he went into the studio to make Thriller, he was intent,

1672
01:20:17.480 --> 01:20:20.240
actually intent, on making the biggest album in history.

1673
01:20:20.240 --> 01:20:22.280
And the amazing thing is that he actually did.

1674
01:20:22.280 --> 01:20:24.800
Whatever your top game was, you're going on top of that one.

1675
01:20:24.800 --> 01:20:26.120
That was his gift.

1676
01:20:26.120 --> 01:20:28.720
You're dealing with a true artist.

1677
01:20:28.720 --> 01:20:31.040
Devoted to the art,

1678
01:20:31.040 --> 01:20:32.960
and everything else is secondary.

1679
01:20:32.960 --> 01:20:35.440
I think it's very easy for people to get sidetracked,

1680
01:20:35.440 --> 01:20:37.440
and talk about his complexion.

1681
01:20:37.440 --> 01:20:41.920
No, focus on what this man was and how he was that.

1682
01:20:41.920 --> 01:20:43.880
And how you can learn from that.

1683
01:20:43.880 --> 01:20:46.360
You approach things the way he approached music,

1684
01:20:46.360 --> 01:20:49.640
then you will be phenomenal.

1685
01:20:49.640 --> 01:20:52.640
And the idea of being separated from your brothers, does that hurt?

1686
01:20:54.320 --> 01:20:55.920
No, it doesn't.

1687
01:20:55.920 --> 01:20:57.600
It, um...

1688
01:20:57.600 --> 01:21:02.960
Cos there are other kinds of sounds and music that I love to do.

1689
01:21:02.960 --> 01:21:04.760
It hurts when it's inside of me

1690
01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:07.000
and it can't get out and it's hidden from the world.

1691
01:21:07.000 --> 01:21:08.600
When I do those solo albums

1692
01:21:08.600 --> 01:21:12.560
and I'm doing all kinds of different music, it's wonderful,

1693
01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:15.080
I feel like I'm accomplishing what I'm supposed to do.

1694
01:21:15.080 --> 01:21:17.840
And you don't feel guilty or worried about your brothers?

1695
01:21:17.840 --> 01:21:19.560
No, cos they understand.

1696
01:21:21.240 --> 01:21:24.520
Why hide something, why hide it? Share it.

1697
01:21:24.520 --> 01:21:26.760
Off The Wall will live for ever.

1698
01:21:26.760 --> 01:21:31.440
That was 1979, but this is just the beginning for that record.

1699
01:21:31.440 --> 01:21:33.080
It's just the beginning.

1700
01:21:33.080 --> 01:21:39.720
New people will explore and discover it today and tomorrow

1701
01:21:39.720 --> 01:21:42.440
and it'll be something new to them today and tomorrow.

1702
01:21:42.440 --> 01:21:44.000
It's just the beginning.

1703
01:21:44.000 --> 01:21:47.800
He transcended sexual barriers,

1704
01:21:47.800 --> 01:21:50.640
racial barriers, he brought everybody,

1705
01:21:50.640 --> 01:21:55.080
brought in everybody, old people, young people, gay, straight.

1706
01:21:55.080 --> 01:21:58.640
I mean, wherever you went, there was a smile.

1707
01:21:58.640 --> 01:22:02.640
But the beauty of his artistry and what he has left us with

1708
01:22:02.640 --> 01:22:04.760
so much joy and, like,

1709
01:22:04.760 --> 01:22:08.160
so much thankfulness...

1710
01:22:09.400 --> 01:22:11.640
..for all that he had given to me.

1711
01:22:11.640 --> 01:22:14.080
You know, given to everybody, but...

1712
01:22:14.080 --> 01:22:16.600
I'm just going to be selfish here for a moment,

1713
01:22:16.600 --> 01:22:21.560
what he gave to me, and I'm glad that I found that joy again

1714
01:22:21.560 --> 01:22:26.160
and I think that, in that way, his spirit is still with me.

1715
01:22:26.160 --> 01:22:28.680
He surpassed what I...

1716
01:22:30.400 --> 01:22:31.800
..ever expected of him.

1717
01:22:31.800 --> 01:22:34.640
I expected a great deal of him, and he surpassed that.

1718
01:22:34.640 --> 01:22:37.200
There's an element of God that's in people.

1719
01:22:37.200 --> 01:22:42.160
Some people, God laid his hand on longer and held it there.

1720
01:22:42.160 --> 01:22:46.480
Secretly and privately, really deep within, there's a destiny.

1721
01:22:48.360 --> 01:22:51.320
And just for me to stay on that track and follow it.

1722
01:22:51.320 --> 01:22:54.000
I really believe and feel I'm here for a reason

1723
01:22:54.000 --> 01:22:57.960
and that's my job, you know, to perform for other people,

1724
01:22:57.960 --> 01:23:01.200
and if they accept it, I'm rewarded.

1725
01:23:01.200 --> 01:23:05.360
If they want to put me up on that pedestal, I feel even better.

1726
01:23:05.360 --> 01:23:07.080
Do you ever want to stop?

1727
01:23:07.080 --> 01:23:09.240
No, don't stop 'til you get enough!

1728
01:23:09.240 --> 01:23:12.800
- And you haven't had enough?
- No way! No way.

1729
01:23:12.800 --> 01:23:15.240
SONG: Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough by Michael Jackson

1730
01:23:15.240 --> 01:23:17.160
Don't stop till you get enough.

1731
01:23:17.160 --> 01:23:18.680
Whoo!

1732
01:23:33.640 --> 01:23:37.040
# Lovely

1733
01:23:37.040 --> 01:23:39.960
# Is the feelin' now

1734
01:23:41.120 --> 01:23:43.720
# Fever

1735
01:23:43.720 --> 01:23:48.880
# Temperatures risin' now

1736
01:23:48.880 --> 01:23:51.920
# Power

1737
01:23:51.920 --> 01:23:56.080
# Is the force, the vow

1738
01:23:56.080 --> 01:23:59.320
# That makes it happen

1739
01:23:59.320 --> 01:24:02.120
# It asks no questions why... #

1740
01:24:26.840 --> 01:24:28.880
CROWD CHEERS

1741
01:24:46.000 --> 01:24:48.000
CROWD CHEERS

1742
01:25:17.040 --> 01:25:19.640
CROWD CHEERS AND YELLS

1743
01:25:35.000 --> 01:25:38.080
SCREAMING AND CHEERING

1744
01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:05.080
Man, Brooklyn...

1745
01:26:11.000 --> 01:26:12.560
..this feels so good.

1746
01:26:12.560 --> 01:26:14.400
Brooklyn, we love you, Michael, yes?

1747
01:26:14.400 --> 01:26:17.920
CROWD SCREAMS AND CHEERS

1748
01:26:18.305 --> 01:26:24.478
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