1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:28,528 --> 00:00:32,432 (birds chirping) 4 00:00:32,532 --> 00:00:35,268 - [Man] I love it when you pretentious types get it. 5 00:00:35,368 --> 00:00:38,705 It shows how much of a fuckin' asshole that you really are. 6 00:00:38,772 --> 00:00:40,707 - [Man] Now you have no friends on our side either, 7 00:00:40,774 --> 00:00:42,275 because you're a stupid fuckin' cunt. 8 00:00:42,375 --> 00:00:43,676 So I hope you kill yourself. 9 00:00:45,211 --> 00:00:46,780 - [Taylor] I wonder what her blood looks like. 10 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,049 I'd take her blood on the streets, 11 00:00:49,115 --> 00:00:51,284 then having to go to jail for a few years. 12 00:00:56,056 --> 00:00:58,725 - I never heard that term cancel culture 13 00:00:58,792 --> 00:01:00,860 until after I'd been cancelled. 14 00:01:02,695 --> 00:01:04,731 - Hey bud, just want to give you a heads up 15 00:01:04,798 --> 00:01:05,799 and warn you that your behavior 16 00:01:05,899 --> 00:01:06,800 is probably going to end 17 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:09,569 in someone killing you and your wife and child. 18 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:11,237 You are scum. 19 00:01:11,304 --> 00:01:12,305 Fuck you. 20 00:01:12,405 --> 00:01:13,573 Fuck your wife. 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,642 Fuck that baby in the New York Times. 22 00:01:15,742 --> 00:01:17,243 Fuck off forever. 23 00:01:17,310 --> 00:01:18,611 Eat shit and die. 24 00:01:23,750 --> 00:01:26,119 (soft music) 25 00:01:30,657 --> 00:01:32,926 - [Monica] Imagine waking up one morning 26 00:01:32,992 --> 00:01:33,993 with the whole world, 27 00:01:34,094 --> 00:01:37,564 suddenly knowing your name, and talking about you. 28 00:01:39,432 --> 00:01:42,335 Not because you cured a disease, 29 00:01:42,435 --> 00:01:44,904 or saved your neighbor's house from burning down. 30 00:01:46,272 --> 00:01:48,675 Everyone knows who you are, 31 00:01:48,775 --> 00:01:50,610 because your mistake, 32 00:01:50,677 --> 00:01:53,613 your secret, has now been made public. 33 00:01:54,447 --> 00:01:55,615 - [Reporter] Monica, look over here! 34 00:01:55,682 --> 00:01:58,518 - [Monica] Trust me, I know a little something about this. 35 00:01:58,618 --> 00:01:59,853 - [Reporter] Monica, Monica! 36 00:01:59,953 --> 00:02:01,855 Say something, Monica! 37 00:02:03,490 --> 00:02:07,293 - In 1998, I lost my reputation, 38 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,329 and my dignity, 39 00:02:09,429 --> 00:02:11,865 and I almost lost my life. 40 00:02:11,965 --> 00:02:14,367 - If you are hazy on the Monica Lewinsky story, at 22, 41 00:02:14,467 --> 00:02:16,002 she and President Clinton began a relationship 42 00:02:16,102 --> 00:02:18,338 that very long story short ended 43 00:02:18,438 --> 00:02:20,373 up with graphic details being made public. 44 00:02:20,473 --> 00:02:22,876 - I was branded as a tramp, 45 00:02:23,776 --> 00:02:25,311 tart, 46 00:02:25,378 --> 00:02:26,880 slut, 47 00:02:26,980 --> 00:02:27,780 whore, 48 00:02:28,715 --> 00:02:29,849 bimbo. 49 00:02:29,949 --> 00:02:33,853 Overnight, I went from being a completely private figure 50 00:02:33,953 --> 00:02:37,357 to a publicly humiliated one worldwide. 51 00:02:37,457 --> 00:02:39,058 - Monica said at one point today, 52 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:42,328 she is seeing a therapist over her addiction to sex, 53 00:02:42,395 --> 00:02:43,663 and she's seeing a dietician 54 00:02:43,730 --> 00:02:45,965 to overcome her addiction to food. 55 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:48,668 You know she could have solved both of these problems 56 00:02:48,735 --> 00:02:50,503 just by keeping her mouth shut. 57 00:02:50,570 --> 00:02:51,738 (audience laughing) 58 00:02:51,838 --> 00:02:53,573 - [Monica] I was patient zero 59 00:02:53,673 --> 00:02:56,843 of having a reputation completely destroyed 60 00:02:56,910 --> 00:02:59,546 worldwide because of the internet. 61 00:03:01,514 --> 00:03:03,149 And I would not be the last. 62 00:03:06,019 --> 00:03:08,521 As the internet grew and changed. 63 00:03:08,588 --> 00:03:11,257 - You make a profile, by answering some questions. 64 00:03:11,357 --> 00:03:14,894 - [Monica] I saw it become a breeding ground for outrage. 65 00:03:14,994 --> 00:03:16,229 - [Reporter] We live in an outrage culture. 66 00:03:16,329 --> 00:03:17,263 - [Monica] And ridicule. 67 00:03:17,363 --> 00:03:18,565 - Shit. 68 00:03:18,665 --> 00:03:19,365 - [Reporter] Threat from a woman who sparked a Twitter backlash. 69 00:03:19,432 --> 00:03:20,366 - [Monica] Whether it was pile-ons. 70 00:03:20,433 --> 00:03:22,769 - [Reporter] Judge and juries on social media 71 00:03:22,869 --> 00:03:23,903 began weighing in. 72 00:03:24,003 --> 00:03:25,205 - [Monica] Hateful troll mobs. 73 00:03:25,271 --> 00:03:26,906 - The video sparking outrage on Twitter. 74 00:03:27,006 --> 00:03:27,907 - So mean. 75 00:03:28,007 --> 00:03:29,108 - [Monica] Or cyber harassment. 76 00:03:29,209 --> 00:03:31,878 - Men going after women in really hostile, aggressive ways. 77 00:03:31,945 --> 00:03:34,280 - Cyber bullying has tripled in the past year. 78 00:03:36,216 --> 00:03:39,018 - [Monica] Our culture was drowning in something. 79 00:03:40,787 --> 00:03:41,588 - Shame. 80 00:03:43,289 --> 00:03:44,090 Shame, 81 00:03:45,725 --> 00:03:46,526 shame, 82 00:03:48,027 --> 00:03:49,562 shame. 83 00:03:49,629 --> 00:03:52,799 - [Monica] And I wanted to understand why. 84 00:03:52,899 --> 00:03:56,069 (upbeat piano music) 85 00:03:56,135 --> 00:03:58,738 - [Monica] So I teamed up with filmmaker, Max Joseph, 86 00:03:58,805 --> 00:03:59,939 who knows a thing or two 87 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:02,475 about documenting internet phenomena. 88 00:04:02,575 --> 00:04:03,443 And together, 89 00:04:03,543 --> 00:04:05,245 we decided to get to the bottom 90 00:04:05,311 --> 00:04:07,981 of this Renaissance of public shaming. 91 00:04:08,081 --> 00:04:09,649 - Okay, today is the day 92 00:04:09,749 --> 00:04:14,220 I am finally leaving to go film this documentary. 93 00:04:15,822 --> 00:04:17,323 - [Monica] We talked to the thought leaders. 94 00:04:17,423 --> 00:04:19,626 - I'm here because I wrote a book about public shaming. 95 00:04:19,726 --> 00:04:22,095 - I'm asked about cancel culture probably every day. 96 00:04:22,161 --> 00:04:23,463 - [Max] We talked to the experts. 97 00:04:23,563 --> 00:04:25,498 - There's something about social media 98 00:04:25,598 --> 00:04:28,501 that you can get a flash mob of outrage 99 00:04:28,601 --> 00:04:30,803 against somebody in seconds. 100 00:04:30,903 --> 00:04:33,673 - There is a self-censoring effect, a chilling effect. 101 00:04:33,773 --> 00:04:37,677 Even if you're witnessing somebody else become the target. 102 00:04:37,777 --> 00:04:40,013 - The outrage, the bullying. 103 00:04:40,113 --> 00:04:42,448 We are operating at our lowest level 104 00:04:42,515 --> 00:04:43,650 as a species right now. 105 00:04:45,618 --> 00:04:46,786 - Shaming culture. 106 00:04:46,853 --> 00:04:47,687 - I think we've gone way too far. 107 00:04:47,787 --> 00:04:48,421 - [Reporter] So what are the consequences? 108 00:04:48,488 --> 00:04:50,023 - [Monica] How did we get here? 109 00:04:50,123 --> 00:04:51,291 - [Reporter] Celebrities sex taping... 110 00:04:51,357 --> 00:04:52,358 - [Max] Where is it leading us? 111 00:04:52,458 --> 00:04:53,159 - [Commentator] You hit one of those trip wires, 112 00:04:53,259 --> 00:04:54,127 the whole world is gonna blow up. 113 00:04:54,193 --> 00:04:56,329 - [Monica] And where the fuck are we going? 114 00:05:01,034 --> 00:05:04,003 (tense piano music) 115 00:05:18,384 --> 00:05:21,187 (birds chirping) 116 00:05:38,571 --> 00:05:40,506 - [Max] Well, let me show you where we're gonna do this. 117 00:05:40,573 --> 00:05:41,874 - [Jon] Wow, look at this. 118 00:05:41,974 --> 00:05:43,076 - [Max] Yeah. 119 00:05:43,176 --> 00:05:44,877 We pulled out all the stops for you, Jon. 120 00:05:46,312 --> 00:05:48,381 Are you ready to talk all about shame? 121 00:05:48,481 --> 00:05:49,749 - [Jon] Sure, we could do that. 122 00:05:51,417 --> 00:05:53,920 - [Max] Jon Ronson is an author, a journalist, 123 00:05:54,020 --> 00:05:55,822 a podcaster, a screenwriter. 124 00:05:55,888 --> 00:05:58,591 - And I'm here because I wrote a book about public shaming, 125 00:05:58,691 --> 00:06:00,426 called, So You've Been Publicly Shamed. 126 00:06:00,526 --> 00:06:02,362 - [Max] The book was released in 2015 127 00:06:02,428 --> 00:06:05,031 and received a fair amount of attention. 128 00:06:05,098 --> 00:06:08,368 - For a little while I became like Mister Shame, 129 00:06:08,434 --> 00:06:09,702 like people would call on me 130 00:06:09,769 --> 00:06:13,106 to adjudicate shaming situations 131 00:06:13,206 --> 00:06:16,542 like does this person deserve their shame? 132 00:06:21,381 --> 00:06:23,783 I didn't want to be that person for a bunch of reasons. 133 00:06:23,883 --> 00:06:27,887 One reason is that if I've learned anything from this, 134 00:06:27,954 --> 00:06:31,290 I've learned that each individual story 135 00:06:31,391 --> 00:06:32,792 is very nuanced. 136 00:06:32,892 --> 00:06:36,362 There's severities of transgression. 137 00:06:36,429 --> 00:06:39,298 There's the type of world that the transgressor comes from. 138 00:06:39,399 --> 00:06:42,468 They tend to be people who have been deemed 139 00:06:42,568 --> 00:06:46,973 representative of something that's wrong with society. 140 00:06:47,073 --> 00:06:49,075 And the fact is sometimes they are, 141 00:06:49,142 --> 00:06:50,977 and sometimes they're not. 142 00:06:51,077 --> 00:06:52,111 I think it's just, 143 00:06:52,211 --> 00:06:54,814 it's really important to differentiate between, you know, 144 00:06:54,914 --> 00:06:57,717 who is the person being shamed and what have they done? 145 00:07:10,263 --> 00:07:11,597 - Hi, my name is Matt Colvin. 146 00:07:11,664 --> 00:07:13,166 I live in Chattanooga, Tennessee, 147 00:07:13,266 --> 00:07:16,335 and I'm known for 148 00:07:16,436 --> 00:07:18,671 my article in the New York Times about having 149 00:07:18,771 --> 00:07:21,107 17,000 bottles of hand sanitizer. 150 00:07:22,942 --> 00:07:24,010 - It's a story that has gone viral. 151 00:07:24,110 --> 00:07:28,614 A Hixson man purchased 18,000 bottles of hand sanitizer. 152 00:07:28,681 --> 00:07:31,350 - It's a story that is dominating national headlines, 153 00:07:31,451 --> 00:07:34,086 after the New York Times wrote about Matt Colvin, 154 00:07:34,153 --> 00:07:37,190 stockpiling goods amid the coronavirus outbreak. 155 00:07:37,290 --> 00:07:39,926 (foregin press non English) - Matt Colvin. 156 00:07:39,992 --> 00:07:42,128 (foregin press non English) - Matt Colvin. 157 00:07:42,195 --> 00:07:43,362 - [Max] Matt Colvin experienced 158 00:07:43,463 --> 00:07:45,298 one of the biggest shamings of 2020. 159 00:07:45,364 --> 00:07:49,368 - If you are selling hand sanitizer for $200, 160 00:07:49,469 --> 00:07:51,137 shame on you. - Who is doing that? 161 00:07:51,204 --> 00:07:53,139 - Shame on you. 162 00:07:53,206 --> 00:07:55,374 - [Max] Pretty much the world over felt justified 163 00:07:55,475 --> 00:07:56,876 in calling him an asshole. 164 00:07:56,976 --> 00:08:00,046 ♪ Matt Colvin, you're an asshole ♪ 165 00:08:00,146 --> 00:08:01,881 - Hey Max, how's it going? 166 00:08:01,981 --> 00:08:03,115 - [Max] Whatever he was, 167 00:08:03,182 --> 00:08:06,219 how did this guy working out of his garage in Chattanooga? 168 00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:07,720 - This is where the New York Times 169 00:08:07,820 --> 00:08:09,322 photos were done and everything. 170 00:08:09,388 --> 00:08:11,791 - [Max] Become a magnet for worldwide shame? 171 00:08:14,827 --> 00:08:16,729 - In early 2020, 172 00:08:16,829 --> 00:08:20,233 I was the owner of a thriving E-commerce business, 173 00:08:20,333 --> 00:08:22,735 selling things on Amazon. 174 00:08:22,835 --> 00:08:24,904 A lot of times it's a third-party seller 175 00:08:25,004 --> 00:08:27,206 who Amazon is allowing to use their platform. 176 00:08:28,674 --> 00:08:31,511 I sold everything from bird seed to toys, dolls, 177 00:08:31,577 --> 00:08:33,746 going to stores like Ross and Walmart 178 00:08:33,846 --> 00:08:35,681 and finding things that were discontinued 179 00:08:35,748 --> 00:08:36,916 or in short supply, 180 00:08:37,016 --> 00:08:38,684 that people were willing to pay 181 00:08:38,751 --> 00:08:40,586 a little bit more for on Amazon 182 00:08:40,686 --> 00:08:42,321 and making my living off of that. 183 00:08:47,693 --> 00:08:49,195 This patch here is from the time 184 00:08:49,262 --> 00:08:51,097 that I spent in the military. 185 00:08:51,197 --> 00:08:54,000 It's got Iraq and Afghanistan. 186 00:08:55,868 --> 00:08:58,070 I joined the military after 9/11. 187 00:08:59,372 --> 00:09:01,674 It almost felt like a civic duty. 188 00:09:02,875 --> 00:09:06,379 I saw a lot of death, doom, and destruction, 189 00:09:06,445 --> 00:09:10,283 and for my mental and personal safety, 190 00:09:10,383 --> 00:09:12,351 I needed to get out of that environment. 191 00:09:14,053 --> 00:09:16,122 Being able to work around 192 00:09:16,222 --> 00:09:17,790 some of the physical and mental issues 193 00:09:17,890 --> 00:09:19,058 that come and go. 194 00:09:19,125 --> 00:09:21,694 Selling on Amazon with Amazon handling 195 00:09:21,761 --> 00:09:24,597 the fulfillment for things gave me that flexibility. 196 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,703 - [Max] And how did you start getting into hand sanitizer? 197 00:09:34,974 --> 00:09:36,576 - To talk about the hand sanitizer, 198 00:09:36,642 --> 00:09:38,210 you want to go back to February. 199 00:09:39,645 --> 00:09:41,981 - [News Reporter] We only have about a dozen cases 200 00:09:42,081 --> 00:09:44,750 that have been diagnosed in the United States. 201 00:09:44,817 --> 00:09:47,820 Most of those in travelers from China and the flow... 202 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:49,822 - [Matt] I had heard about the coronavirus. 203 00:09:49,922 --> 00:09:52,892 It seemed like something that was remote 204 00:09:52,959 --> 00:09:54,160 and happening in China. 205 00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:56,796 And I didn't see it gaining a foothold here. 206 00:09:58,764 --> 00:10:00,433 I tracked things that were trending 207 00:10:00,499 --> 00:10:04,403 and hand sanitizer was starting to be a thing. 208 00:10:04,470 --> 00:10:07,273 I bought several thousand bottles from Dollar Tree. 209 00:10:07,340 --> 00:10:09,141 And then from driving around. 210 00:10:10,610 --> 00:10:12,845 I was selling my stuff at higher than market pricing, 211 00:10:12,945 --> 00:10:15,481 but I was never the highest price. 212 00:10:22,955 --> 00:10:25,858 Amazon has conditioned people that shipping is free. 213 00:10:25,958 --> 00:10:28,094 It's not free to the small business, 214 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,796 especially if you're shipping a hazmat substance 215 00:10:30,863 --> 00:10:34,800 like the hand sanitizer that has to be sent a certain way. 216 00:10:34,867 --> 00:10:37,870 So the prices that were being charged 217 00:10:37,970 --> 00:10:40,973 were not something that is indefensible, in my mind. 218 00:10:48,481 --> 00:10:49,882 - [News Reporter] Amazon says 219 00:10:49,982 --> 00:10:51,884 it's blocking or removing thousands of offers 220 00:10:51,984 --> 00:10:55,554 where bad actors are attempting to artificially raise prices 221 00:10:55,655 --> 00:10:58,824 on basic need products during a global health crisis. 222 00:11:01,994 --> 00:11:04,063 - Amazon shut those listings down, 223 00:11:04,163 --> 00:11:06,499 said that my pricing was too high, 224 00:11:06,565 --> 00:11:08,067 while Amazon at the same time 225 00:11:08,167 --> 00:11:11,037 was massively inflating their own prices. 226 00:11:16,075 --> 00:11:19,512 The New York Times was looking to talk to sellers 227 00:11:19,578 --> 00:11:22,682 that had been shut down on Amazon. 228 00:11:22,748 --> 00:11:24,583 I've always tried to advocate for other sellers 229 00:11:24,684 --> 00:11:27,386 and this looked like a way for me to be able to do that. 230 00:11:28,754 --> 00:11:31,857 They asked a lot of questions about the inventory. 231 00:11:31,924 --> 00:11:34,060 In the photos wanted me to look pissed. 232 00:11:35,194 --> 00:11:36,929 The whole article was coached 233 00:11:37,029 --> 00:11:39,198 in that Amazon's being this big bully, 234 00:11:39,265 --> 00:11:41,067 and we're gonna expose them for that. 235 00:11:42,702 --> 00:11:44,837 But that's not what it turned out to be. 236 00:11:54,714 --> 00:11:59,719 (phone buzzing) 237 00:12:02,555 --> 00:12:04,623 When the story came out, 238 00:12:04,724 --> 00:12:08,027 we were in bed and my phone was going crazy. 239 00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:14,033 And then I read the article, and I understood. 240 00:12:17,737 --> 00:12:19,071 March 1st, the day after 241 00:12:19,138 --> 00:12:22,475 the first death from Coronavirus in the US, 242 00:12:22,575 --> 00:12:24,643 Matt Colvin went out and started buying 243 00:12:24,744 --> 00:12:26,979 hand sanitizer like an asshole. 244 00:12:27,079 --> 00:12:27,947 I was horrified. 245 00:12:29,482 --> 00:12:32,651 It said I was selling a single bottle for $70, 246 00:12:32,752 --> 00:12:35,755 but that was a pack of multiple bottles. 247 00:12:35,821 --> 00:12:36,622 Didn't matter. 248 00:12:43,829 --> 00:12:46,098 I was just getting bombarded. 249 00:12:48,768 --> 00:12:50,469 There was a certain level of glee. 250 00:12:53,939 --> 00:12:55,941 The hate if it was even possible, 251 00:12:56,008 --> 00:12:57,476 just got ramped up even higher. 252 00:13:00,446 --> 00:13:03,516 - [News Reporter] Matt Colvin bought nearly 18,000 bottles 253 00:13:03,616 --> 00:13:04,917 of hand sanitizer, 254 00:13:04,984 --> 00:13:07,620 while many are still searching to find even one. 255 00:13:07,686 --> 00:13:10,589 For Matt Coleman, a pandemic meant an opportunity. 256 00:13:26,806 --> 00:13:29,308 - [Max] Was Matt's public shaming anything new? 257 00:13:30,476 --> 00:13:31,877 - [Monica] Or was it just a new version 258 00:13:31,977 --> 00:13:34,346 of something we've always done? 259 00:13:35,815 --> 00:13:37,483 - So there's this extraordinary history 260 00:13:37,550 --> 00:13:39,485 of public humiliation. 261 00:13:39,552 --> 00:13:42,321 - [Monica] Tiffany Watt Smith is a cultural historian 262 00:13:42,388 --> 00:13:45,057 at Queen Mary University of London. 263 00:13:45,157 --> 00:13:46,058 - In our distant past, 264 00:13:46,158 --> 00:13:48,727 this is still true of many communities today, 265 00:13:48,828 --> 00:13:50,896 we were living in very small groups of people, 266 00:13:50,996 --> 00:13:53,465 and it was very important that everyone kind of pulled 267 00:13:53,532 --> 00:13:56,869 together and we're playing by the same rules and 268 00:13:56,969 --> 00:13:58,404 things are shared equally, 269 00:13:58,504 --> 00:14:00,973 and no one is hoarding anything. 270 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,241 These kind of societies 271 00:14:02,341 --> 00:14:04,243 punish very quickly and very severely 272 00:14:04,343 --> 00:14:07,246 anyone who is trying to take more than their fair share, 273 00:14:07,346 --> 00:14:08,214 anyone who sort of thinks 274 00:14:08,314 --> 00:14:10,716 that they don't have to abide by the rules. 275 00:14:13,352 --> 00:14:15,087 And societies across the ages 276 00:14:15,187 --> 00:14:19,024 have this kind of this strange process 277 00:14:19,091 --> 00:14:21,227 of ritualized public humiliation. 278 00:14:24,029 --> 00:14:25,264 - [Narrator] For many of our students, 279 00:14:25,364 --> 00:14:27,733 this is the lesson you've been waiting for. 280 00:14:31,370 --> 00:14:32,204 - [Max] In the beginning, 281 00:14:32,271 --> 00:14:33,072 there was shame. 282 00:14:35,374 --> 00:14:37,176 Swiftly followed by banishment. 283 00:14:39,445 --> 00:14:41,280 In China, they put you in a cage 284 00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:43,616 and leave you at the gates to the city. 285 00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:45,284 In ancient Mediterranean cultures, 286 00:14:45,384 --> 00:14:48,354 they'd shave your head and burn off all your body hair. 287 00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:49,455 (sizzling) ♪ Yeah ♪ 288 00:14:49,555 --> 00:14:50,689 - [Matt] In ancient Greece, 289 00:14:50,756 --> 00:14:52,625 citizens could vote you off the island 290 00:14:52,725 --> 00:14:54,426 and you couldn't come back for 10 years. 291 00:14:55,694 --> 00:14:58,130 They voted with these shards of pottery called ostraka, 292 00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:59,732 hence ostracizing. 293 00:14:59,798 --> 00:15:00,900 (bell rings) 294 00:15:00,966 --> 00:15:02,635 ♪ Gonna wash my hands ♪ 295 00:15:02,735 --> 00:15:04,136 - [Max] Tarring and feathering first appeared 296 00:15:04,236 --> 00:15:05,871 in 12th century England, 297 00:15:05,938 --> 00:15:07,072 an instant classic. 298 00:15:08,574 --> 00:15:11,143 There was also the bride's muzzle, the scolds bridle, 299 00:15:11,243 --> 00:15:13,779 the drunkards cloak, and the cucking stool. 300 00:15:15,581 --> 00:15:17,082 But it was the early 1300's 301 00:15:17,149 --> 00:15:19,151 that witnessed the emergence of what would become 302 00:15:19,251 --> 00:15:22,922 everyone's favorite public shaming device, the pillory. 303 00:15:25,591 --> 00:15:27,092 - It was a kind of wooden contraption, 304 00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:29,662 and you'd put your arms and your head 305 00:15:29,762 --> 00:15:30,829 kind of through this contraption, 306 00:15:30,930 --> 00:15:32,631 and that would be fixed in place. 307 00:15:33,933 --> 00:15:36,101 And you would be made to kind of parade 308 00:15:36,168 --> 00:15:38,170 to the site of the pillory. 309 00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:41,440 And those parades were vicious. 310 00:15:41,507 --> 00:15:43,609 People would shout abuse, 311 00:15:43,676 --> 00:15:45,511 hurl things at you. 312 00:15:45,611 --> 00:15:47,012 There are examples of people who died 313 00:15:47,112 --> 00:15:49,281 on their way to the pillory. 314 00:15:49,348 --> 00:15:51,850 This is a person who is suffering 315 00:15:51,951 --> 00:15:54,687 because they have done something wrong, 316 00:15:54,787 --> 00:15:57,790 and we have to punish them in order to tell everyone else 317 00:15:57,856 --> 00:15:59,091 not to do the same thing. 318 00:16:06,131 --> 00:16:09,702 - Some people had actually found my home address. 319 00:16:09,802 --> 00:16:12,037 In my head, I was convinced that everything 320 00:16:12,137 --> 00:16:13,372 that I've read that was negative 321 00:16:13,472 --> 00:16:15,107 was about to actually happen. 322 00:16:18,811 --> 00:16:21,313 We went and stayed in an Airbnb. 323 00:16:22,815 --> 00:16:24,883 I'm glad that we did because about 11 o'clock that night, 324 00:16:24,984 --> 00:16:27,186 someone showed up and started banging on the door. 325 00:16:31,223 --> 00:16:32,992 I purchased a small handgun, 326 00:16:33,058 --> 00:16:35,694 because I was that concerned for our family's safety. 327 00:16:37,062 --> 00:16:37,997 - Just don't buy up all the guns 328 00:16:38,063 --> 00:16:39,631 like you did the sanitizer man. 329 00:16:42,167 --> 00:16:45,137 - The fact that somebody actually recognized who I was, 330 00:16:47,172 --> 00:16:48,040 that shook me. 331 00:16:51,844 --> 00:16:52,911 Some of the items that I sold, 332 00:16:53,012 --> 00:16:55,014 I feel like I did get caught up 333 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,016 and didn't take everything into account 334 00:16:57,082 --> 00:17:00,085 and did make a mistake with how high my pricing was. 335 00:17:00,185 --> 00:17:02,187 And it costs me in a big way. 336 00:17:04,757 --> 00:17:08,594 The economic impact from this has been substantial. 337 00:17:08,694 --> 00:17:12,364 We're dipping into our emergency funds 338 00:17:12,431 --> 00:17:16,502 and don't really have a way out. 339 00:17:20,372 --> 00:17:22,541 - Someone said to me once, 340 00:17:22,608 --> 00:17:27,046 Twitter purports to hate tabloids, 341 00:17:27,112 --> 00:17:29,782 but acts exactly like a tabloid, you know, 342 00:17:29,882 --> 00:17:34,286 ridding the story of nuance, context. 343 00:17:34,386 --> 00:17:35,954 Just treating somebody as this, 344 00:17:36,055 --> 00:17:40,459 as this one monolithic aspect of their personality. 345 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:41,460 I mean, yeah, 346 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,465 British tabloids were tearing people to shreds 347 00:17:46,565 --> 00:17:48,400 since the dawn of the printing press. 348 00:17:50,736 --> 00:17:52,304 - [Monica] The printing revolution 349 00:17:52,404 --> 00:17:54,907 was a big leap for civilization, 350 00:17:54,973 --> 00:17:59,411 for literacy, for culture, for the spread of knowledge, 351 00:17:59,478 --> 00:18:02,748 but it was also the heir to the pillory. 352 00:18:02,815 --> 00:18:07,653 - We go from the stocks and the pillories to the tabloids. 353 00:18:07,753 --> 00:18:09,054 They take no prisoners 354 00:18:09,121 --> 00:18:12,825 when it comes to the spectacle of public shaming. 355 00:18:12,925 --> 00:18:15,094 They'd make this link between the sense 356 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,662 that we enjoy seeing people 357 00:18:16,762 --> 00:18:18,997 exposed and punished in the papers, 358 00:18:19,098 --> 00:18:21,100 and the sense that we're willing to pay for it. 359 00:18:21,166 --> 00:18:23,836 - [Monica] Technology had taken our love of shame 360 00:18:23,936 --> 00:18:27,840 out of the town square and put it onto the newsstand. 361 00:18:27,940 --> 00:18:31,944 And with that, humiliation had been monetized. 362 00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:35,681 Fast forward to the 1970's when Rupert Murdoch 363 00:18:35,781 --> 00:18:39,518 brought his wildly successful tabloid formula to America, 364 00:18:39,618 --> 00:18:43,789 where capitalism found a million new ways to distribute it. 365 00:18:43,856 --> 00:18:46,358 It was the beginning of a blending and bleeding 366 00:18:46,458 --> 00:18:48,460 of supermarket tabloid culture 367 00:18:48,527 --> 00:18:50,362 into every form of media. 368 00:18:50,462 --> 00:18:52,297 - [News Reporter] Coming up on E-news, a Week in Review, 369 00:18:52,364 --> 00:18:54,633 celebrities and their sex lives. 370 00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:57,369 - Ratings for my show. 371 00:18:57,469 --> 00:18:59,037 (cheering) 372 00:18:59,138 --> 00:19:01,974 - When I started, I understood the media 373 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,043 might be interested in what I did, 374 00:19:05,144 --> 00:19:08,213 but I was not aware of how overwhelming 375 00:19:08,313 --> 00:19:11,283 that attention would become. 376 00:19:14,887 --> 00:19:18,991 (camera shutters clicking) 377 00:19:19,057 --> 00:19:20,893 - [News Reporter] It's been reported in the last few minutes 378 00:19:20,993 --> 00:19:23,795 that Diana, Princess of Wales has been seriously injured 379 00:19:23,862 --> 00:19:25,364 in a car crash in Paris. 380 00:19:26,565 --> 00:19:28,066 - Now there is confirmation 381 00:19:28,167 --> 00:19:31,637 that Diana, Princess of Wales, has died. 382 00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:33,672 - [Reporter] French officials say the couple 383 00:19:33,739 --> 00:19:35,007 were being chased by paparazzi. 384 00:19:37,342 --> 00:19:38,744 - [Monica] Diana's death could have been 385 00:19:38,844 --> 00:19:40,913 a catalyst for change, 386 00:19:41,013 --> 00:19:44,349 an indictment of this culture of humiliation, 387 00:19:45,350 --> 00:19:46,084 but it wasn't. 388 00:19:46,185 --> 00:19:48,754 (somber music) 389 00:19:48,854 --> 00:19:50,923 And less than five months later, 390 00:19:51,023 --> 00:19:55,694 I would personally come to understand the price of shame. 391 00:19:58,764 --> 00:20:00,098 - The vote is just in, 392 00:20:00,199 --> 00:20:01,066 an overwhelming vote 393 00:20:01,166 --> 00:20:02,434 in the House of Representatives 394 00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:04,036 as a whole, 395 00:20:04,102 --> 00:20:07,272 to release the details of the Ken Starr report. 396 00:20:07,372 --> 00:20:10,108 - We're told they're going to put this on the internet. 397 00:20:10,209 --> 00:20:12,945 I think what is going to be stunning to people, 398 00:20:13,045 --> 00:20:16,281 is how graphic some of it is going to be. 399 00:20:16,381 --> 00:20:18,784 - [Monica] Public humiliation wasn't new, 400 00:20:18,884 --> 00:20:22,221 but public shaming on the internet was a whole new thing. 401 00:20:23,222 --> 00:20:26,191 (modem connection beeping) 402 00:20:28,460 --> 00:20:31,463 - [News Reporter] It was a star-filled day for the internet 403 00:20:31,563 --> 00:20:34,233 with some websites getting 20 times the visits 404 00:20:34,299 --> 00:20:35,434 of a normal day. 405 00:20:35,534 --> 00:20:38,303 So many people tried to reach the congressional websites 406 00:20:38,403 --> 00:20:39,805 to read the Starr Report, 407 00:20:39,905 --> 00:20:42,975 those sites were shut down by the overload. 408 00:20:43,075 --> 00:20:45,410 - [Monica] There was no handbook on what to do, 409 00:20:45,477 --> 00:20:47,613 being publicly shamed on the internet. 410 00:20:52,417 --> 00:20:53,619 I was mortified. 411 00:20:56,588 --> 00:21:00,259 I couldn't draw a border around how many people knew, 412 00:21:00,325 --> 00:21:03,228 how many people were reveling in my shame, 413 00:21:04,162 --> 00:21:06,331 and the image of people laughing, 414 00:21:06,431 --> 00:21:09,234 proliferated like stars in the night sky, 415 00:21:09,301 --> 00:21:11,770 as it gets darker and darker. 416 00:21:11,837 --> 00:21:13,905 - Monica was a young tramp. 417 00:21:16,775 --> 00:21:19,278 - [Monica] The internet allowed anyone, anywhere, 418 00:21:19,344 --> 00:21:21,813 to instantly read about my shaming, 419 00:21:22,781 --> 00:21:24,916 and to take part in it as well. 420 00:21:29,454 --> 00:21:32,291 - When someone is just a name on a screen 421 00:21:32,357 --> 00:21:34,526 with some of their text, 422 00:21:34,626 --> 00:21:37,362 as well as maybe a stranger you've never met, 423 00:21:37,462 --> 00:21:41,366 that is not enough information for our human brains 424 00:21:41,466 --> 00:21:44,036 to fully perceive them as a human. 425 00:21:44,703 --> 00:21:47,306 - [Max] Doctor Helen Weng is both a neuroscientist 426 00:21:47,372 --> 00:21:48,640 and a psychologist. 427 00:21:49,875 --> 00:21:51,476 She has spent the last decade studying 428 00:21:51,543 --> 00:21:54,713 how our brains evolved to process emotions. 429 00:21:54,813 --> 00:21:56,882 - So one quick route that our brain 430 00:21:56,982 --> 00:21:58,717 understands the mental states of others, 431 00:21:58,817 --> 00:22:02,487 is viewing people's faces and body language. 432 00:22:02,554 --> 00:22:05,657 And our brains process this information very, very quickly. 433 00:22:06,825 --> 00:22:09,061 If we don't have access to that information 434 00:22:09,161 --> 00:22:10,562 through the internet, 435 00:22:10,662 --> 00:22:13,999 then it's harder for us to even think about 436 00:22:14,066 --> 00:22:16,335 what this person might be thinking or feeling. 437 00:22:17,736 --> 00:22:20,238 We need all of those inputs to fully understand 438 00:22:20,339 --> 00:22:24,476 that someone is a full human being with their own feelings. 439 00:22:29,748 --> 00:22:33,485 - [Matt] All it takes is one mention of price gouging. 440 00:22:34,353 --> 00:22:35,420 And next thing you know, 441 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,156 I'm going down the rabbit hole of 442 00:22:39,424 --> 00:22:41,059 reading my own press. 443 00:22:42,861 --> 00:22:45,497 There's a part of me that's searching for an answer 444 00:22:46,698 --> 00:22:49,234 to your question of am I really that guy? 445 00:22:58,877 --> 00:23:00,779 - [Max] In an election year, 446 00:23:00,879 --> 00:23:04,216 where there was also a once in a century pandemic, 447 00:23:04,282 --> 00:23:06,885 the New York Times article on Matt Colvin 448 00:23:06,952 --> 00:23:09,588 got the attention of the world. 449 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:24,436 - People love to say, oh, it's the internet. 450 00:23:24,536 --> 00:23:25,537 It's not real, 451 00:23:25,604 --> 00:23:28,573 so I am not responsible for dehumanizing the person, 452 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:30,075 the internet is. 453 00:23:30,142 --> 00:23:31,410 The internet is there, 454 00:23:31,476 --> 00:23:33,145 but we are responsible for the ways 455 00:23:33,245 --> 00:23:35,046 in which we dehumanize each other. 456 00:23:36,481 --> 00:23:39,217 - [Monica] Roxane Gay is a writer, professor, editor, 457 00:23:39,284 --> 00:23:41,153 and cultural commentator. 458 00:23:41,253 --> 00:23:44,756 She's won the Eisner award, a Guggenheim fellowship, 459 00:23:44,823 --> 00:23:46,591 the Penn Freedom to Write Award, 460 00:23:46,658 --> 00:23:49,327 and she's a New York Times bestselling author. 461 00:23:49,428 --> 00:23:53,098 She's also a big deal on social media. 462 00:23:53,165 --> 00:23:54,766 - I think social media is a good idea, 463 00:23:54,833 --> 00:23:56,768 but people ruin everything. 464 00:23:56,835 --> 00:23:58,670 It's a very toxic atmosphere. 465 00:23:58,770 --> 00:24:02,340 It's an atmosphere where the more marginalized you are, 466 00:24:02,441 --> 00:24:05,777 the more harassment you're going to receive for existing, 467 00:24:05,844 --> 00:24:08,113 and expressing thoughts and opinions. 468 00:24:08,180 --> 00:24:12,951 It's a medium now where people are very punitive. 469 00:24:13,018 --> 00:24:15,787 There is no tolerance for mistakes or nuance. 470 00:24:15,854 --> 00:24:17,355 It's really unfortunate to see 471 00:24:17,456 --> 00:24:20,325 how the platform has devolved, it used to be really great. 472 00:24:23,295 --> 00:24:25,964 I loved that you were able to connect with people 473 00:24:26,031 --> 00:24:28,667 you would never have the opportunity to meet, 474 00:24:30,202 --> 00:24:34,039 and expect nothing in return, but sometimes get a response. 475 00:24:34,139 --> 00:24:36,942 And that's just really cool. 476 00:24:38,643 --> 00:24:39,878 It's just like a cocktail party 477 00:24:39,978 --> 00:24:41,613 you can go to in your pajamas. 478 00:24:43,148 --> 00:24:45,984 I think social media has really allowed 479 00:24:46,051 --> 00:24:47,686 wallflowers to shine. 480 00:24:48,887 --> 00:24:51,223 - The first, maybe four years of Twitter, 481 00:24:51,323 --> 00:24:55,627 between about 2008 and 2012, it was kind of utopian. 482 00:24:57,162 --> 00:25:01,399 - You could have conversations and you could be left alone. 483 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:04,503 - People were curious about each other. 484 00:25:04,569 --> 00:25:07,072 - And nobody would be like, oh, 485 00:25:07,172 --> 00:25:11,309 it's time to end you because you disagree with me. 486 00:25:13,245 --> 00:25:15,413 - The change started around 2012. 487 00:25:15,514 --> 00:25:19,584 We realized that when people outside of our circle 488 00:25:19,684 --> 00:25:21,887 transgressed, we could do something about it. 489 00:25:24,689 --> 00:25:26,191 I remember there was a heavily pregnant woman 490 00:25:26,258 --> 00:25:29,427 who tried to cancel her membership to LA Fitness. 491 00:25:29,528 --> 00:25:31,263 LA Fitness wouldn't let her cancel her membership, 492 00:25:31,363 --> 00:25:33,198 so she went on Twitter and complained. 493 00:25:33,265 --> 00:25:34,766 (Twiter bird tweet) 494 00:25:34,866 --> 00:25:36,568 (bell ringing) 495 00:25:37,536 --> 00:25:40,105 We got them, we got LA fitness. 496 00:25:40,205 --> 00:25:42,707 We just piled on LA fitness and we got them. 497 00:25:42,774 --> 00:25:43,942 We hit them with a weapon 498 00:25:44,042 --> 00:25:45,110 that we understood and they didn't, 499 00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:47,445 which was the social media shaming. 500 00:25:47,546 --> 00:25:48,947 It was that, whoa, 501 00:25:49,047 --> 00:25:50,582 we've got all this new power. 502 00:25:51,716 --> 00:25:52,851 - For most of modern history, 503 00:25:52,918 --> 00:25:56,054 we've seen information coming to us from people in power, 504 00:25:56,121 --> 00:25:58,089 from authority figures, from politicians. 505 00:25:59,291 --> 00:26:01,226 The information only goes in one direction. 506 00:26:01,293 --> 00:26:02,127 - [Max] Aja Romano is a 507 00:26:02,227 --> 00:26:03,461 writer and journalist, 508 00:26:03,562 --> 00:26:04,529 whose expertise 509 00:26:04,596 --> 00:26:06,464 is internet culture. 510 00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:07,966 - But now because of social media, 511 00:26:08,066 --> 00:26:08,967 you have people without power 512 00:26:09,067 --> 00:26:11,803 using their collective voice to speak back. 513 00:26:11,903 --> 00:26:14,139 - [Man] I am leading a Twitter revolution. 514 00:26:14,239 --> 00:26:14,973 - [Reporter] You're giving Facebook 515 00:26:15,073 --> 00:26:16,041 a lot of credit for this. 516 00:26:16,107 --> 00:26:17,742 - [Wael] I want to meet Mark Zuckerberg one day 517 00:26:17,809 --> 00:26:18,443 and thank him. 518 00:26:18,543 --> 00:26:19,244 - I think we see public shaming 519 00:26:19,311 --> 00:26:21,079 being used for good all the time. 520 00:26:21,146 --> 00:26:23,415 Like a boycott, having a positive result. 521 00:26:23,481 --> 00:26:24,316 - [Protester] Whose streets? 522 00:26:24,416 --> 00:26:25,150 - [Crowd] Our streets! 523 00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:25,984 - [Protester] Whose streets? 524 00:26:26,084 --> 00:26:26,985 - [Crowd] Our streets! 525 00:26:27,085 --> 00:26:28,920 - [Monica] That long predates cancel culture. 526 00:26:28,987 --> 00:26:30,155 - [News Reporter] Protests held 527 00:26:30,255 --> 00:26:32,324 at every sea park around the world. 528 00:26:32,424 --> 00:26:34,159 - There are things that happen in this world 529 00:26:34,259 --> 00:26:35,327 that are outrageous. 530 00:26:35,427 --> 00:26:36,227 - [Student] I go to UVA! 531 00:26:36,294 --> 00:26:37,329 - Stop (beep) fighting. 532 00:26:37,429 --> 00:26:38,997 - You (beep) racists! 533 00:26:39,097 --> 00:26:42,300 - There's a lot of resentment and it's reasonable. 534 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,302 - [Protester] Black lives they matter where? 535 00:26:44,402 --> 00:26:46,104 - [Crowd] Black lives they matter here! 536 00:26:46,171 --> 00:26:49,274 - People are so unseenand so unheard, 537 00:26:49,341 --> 00:26:51,676 and they've been unrepresented for so long, 538 00:26:51,776 --> 00:26:53,745 and you see something done about it. 539 00:26:53,812 --> 00:26:55,347 That is incredibly satisfying. 540 00:26:55,447 --> 00:26:56,948 - [News Reporter] President Joe Biden has revoked 541 00:26:57,015 --> 00:27:00,185 the permit needed to build the Keystone XL pipeline. 542 00:27:00,285 --> 00:27:01,119 - [News Reporter] Social media posts 543 00:27:01,186 --> 00:27:03,021 calling to stop Asian hate. 544 00:27:03,121 --> 00:27:04,255 - [News Reporter] In city after city around the world. 545 00:27:04,322 --> 00:27:06,524 - [News Reporter] Watershed moment for the #MeToo movement. 546 00:27:06,625 --> 00:27:09,294 Harvey Weinstein sentenced to 23 years. 547 00:27:09,361 --> 00:27:10,528 - [News Reporter] The NFL's Washington Redskins 548 00:27:10,629 --> 00:27:11,863 are changing the team name 549 00:27:11,963 --> 00:27:13,865 and the team's Native American logo. 550 00:27:13,965 --> 00:27:15,667 Proof today that activism matters. 551 00:27:18,136 --> 00:27:21,039 - And I think what started to happen around that point 552 00:27:21,139 --> 00:27:24,542 was that we fell in love with this new power too much, 553 00:27:24,643 --> 00:27:26,378 that our standards began to slip. 554 00:27:26,478 --> 00:27:29,047 And instead of getting powerful corporations 555 00:27:29,147 --> 00:27:32,217 who had committed transgressions with actual victims, 556 00:27:32,317 --> 00:27:35,120 we started getting people for, who had misspoken. 557 00:27:36,488 --> 00:27:38,156 - [Monica] In this picture, Lindsay can be seen 558 00:27:38,223 --> 00:27:41,226 flipping off the Tomb of the Unknowns. 559 00:27:41,326 --> 00:27:43,395 - [Woman] And Kim Kardashian is facing backlash 560 00:27:43,495 --> 00:27:45,163 after flying her family and friends 561 00:27:45,230 --> 00:27:46,164 to a private island to... 562 00:27:46,231 --> 00:27:48,566 - [Reporter] Mothers all over are being shamed 563 00:27:48,667 --> 00:27:50,135 for their parenting decisions. 564 00:27:50,201 --> 00:27:52,671 - Because we were too in love with this new power. 565 00:27:52,737 --> 00:27:55,240 So a day without a shaming, felt like a day, you know, 566 00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:57,575 picking fingernails and treading water, 567 00:27:57,676 --> 00:27:59,077 that it felt weird and empty 568 00:27:59,177 --> 00:28:00,512 when there wasn't somebody who had done something wrong 569 00:28:00,578 --> 00:28:01,513 that we could get. 570 00:28:04,349 --> 00:28:06,251 And that's where we started disproportionately 571 00:28:06,351 --> 00:28:08,186 shaming people who didn't deserve it. 572 00:28:08,253 --> 00:28:09,688 - [News Reporter] It's the viral encounter 573 00:28:09,754 --> 00:28:12,524 that ignited a social media powder keg. 574 00:28:12,590 --> 00:28:15,427 But now new footage showing there were other tensions 575 00:28:15,527 --> 00:28:16,761 before that incident. 576 00:28:16,861 --> 00:28:18,430 - Or we just find out that we got it wrong. 577 00:28:18,530 --> 00:28:19,597 They hadn't done the thing 578 00:28:19,698 --> 00:28:20,999 that we'd all thought they'd done. 579 00:28:22,701 --> 00:28:25,403 (birds singing) 580 00:28:33,211 --> 00:28:35,213 - I'm from San Diego. 581 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,116 I love having San Diego as a first, you know, 582 00:28:38,216 --> 00:28:40,351 part of the title of my job, 583 00:28:40,418 --> 00:28:43,121 San Diego Gas and Electric Locator. 584 00:28:43,221 --> 00:28:44,022 I like that. 585 00:28:46,791 --> 00:28:48,093 That sounds like somebody. 586 00:28:51,629 --> 00:28:54,399 When I landed the job at SDGE, 587 00:28:54,466 --> 00:28:58,636 it felt like my proudest professional achievement. 588 00:28:58,737 --> 00:29:00,472 When she told me over the phone, she said, 589 00:29:00,572 --> 00:29:04,576 it's gonna start at 41.05, is that okay, she asked me. 590 00:29:04,642 --> 00:29:06,111 I put the phone down, okay? 591 00:29:07,312 --> 00:29:09,214 Yeah, it's way more than okay. 592 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,750 And when I first told my oldest daughter about the job 593 00:29:11,816 --> 00:29:13,251 and she was like, oh, so I guess 594 00:29:13,318 --> 00:29:15,787 our Christmas presents will be upgraded this year, 595 00:29:17,155 --> 00:29:18,490 which I thought was funny, 596 00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:20,258 but it turned out to be true. 597 00:29:22,327 --> 00:29:23,661 I knew who I was. 598 00:29:23,762 --> 00:29:26,931 I was a locator for San Diego Gas and Electric, 599 00:29:26,998 --> 00:29:29,100 and I was gonna do that till I retired. 600 00:29:31,603 --> 00:29:33,338 - [News Reporter] George Floyd tomorrow 601 00:29:33,438 --> 00:29:34,506 here in Minneapolis. 602 00:29:34,606 --> 00:29:36,841 - [Emmanuel] It's early summer, 603 00:29:36,941 --> 00:29:39,644 eight days past the George Floyd murder. 604 00:29:41,446 --> 00:29:43,448 I filled out my time sheet 605 00:29:43,515 --> 00:29:45,483 and I started heading home for the day. 606 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:50,488 That's when I come across a Black Lives Matter protest. 607 00:29:53,291 --> 00:29:58,196 I travel east for over a mile, hand on the wheel, 608 00:29:58,296 --> 00:30:01,366 window down, I got my hand resting on the door, 609 00:30:01,466 --> 00:30:03,868 and I'm just doing a series of these, 610 00:30:03,968 --> 00:30:05,804 just a fidgety habit I have. 611 00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:07,872 It's just my hand tightens up sometimes 612 00:30:07,972 --> 00:30:09,107 at the end of the day. 613 00:30:09,974 --> 00:30:10,842 So I'm doing that, 614 00:30:12,143 --> 00:30:14,279 when I'm approached by a motorist, 615 00:30:15,647 --> 00:30:19,884 a balding, Caucasian in his mid 50's. 616 00:30:19,984 --> 00:30:22,887 Pissed, pissed like I stole his dog. 617 00:30:22,987 --> 00:30:24,489 He does this thing. 618 00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:27,325 And he says, "You're gonna do this, asshole? 619 00:30:27,392 --> 00:30:29,661 Really? You're going to do this?" 620 00:30:29,727 --> 00:30:31,229 The light turns green. 621 00:30:31,329 --> 00:30:36,301 He calls me a piece of shit, speeds away. 622 00:30:36,901 --> 00:30:37,468 And that was it. 623 00:30:45,677 --> 00:30:47,145 Couple hours later, I get a call 624 00:30:47,212 --> 00:30:49,681 from one of my immediate supervisors. 625 00:30:49,747 --> 00:30:54,319 He tells me there's been a photo of you in your work truck 626 00:30:56,087 --> 00:30:58,089 posted on Twitter, 627 00:30:58,189 --> 00:31:00,925 and the accusation is that you're doing 628 00:31:01,025 --> 00:31:03,828 a white supremacist hand gesture 629 00:31:08,032 --> 00:31:10,068 in front of a Black Lives Matter protest. 630 00:31:12,770 --> 00:31:15,173 (dark music) 631 00:31:25,950 --> 00:31:28,887 The higher ups have gotten wind of it. 632 00:31:28,953 --> 00:31:30,889 They are taking it very serious. 633 00:31:36,628 --> 00:31:39,564 The following Monday, I get a call. 634 00:31:39,631 --> 00:31:43,468 We all gathered together in a conference room. 635 00:31:43,568 --> 00:31:48,406 We haven't sat down 10 seconds when, before he says, well, 636 00:31:48,473 --> 00:31:51,910 we've decided that there are too many holes in your story 637 00:31:51,976 --> 00:31:54,812 and we're going to terminate you. 638 00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:57,415 I asked him, what are these holes? 639 00:31:57,482 --> 00:31:59,584 Let me fill them for you right now. 640 00:31:59,651 --> 00:32:03,254 I got to the point where I raised both my arms and I say, 641 00:32:03,321 --> 00:32:05,490 "You do see this, right? 642 00:32:05,590 --> 00:32:08,426 You see the color of my skin, right? 643 00:32:08,493 --> 00:32:11,095 So you see how preposterous it would be 644 00:32:11,162 --> 00:32:16,134 for me to be a white supremacist when I'm not white myself. 645 00:32:17,602 --> 00:32:20,505 Well, so now it's been determined, it's official. 646 00:32:20,605 --> 00:32:21,472 I'm terminated. 647 00:32:32,183 --> 00:32:33,618 - [Woman] If it wasn't so serious 648 00:32:33,685 --> 00:32:37,121 I would bag on you so hard for all of this, it's funny. 649 00:32:37,188 --> 00:32:38,289 - [Emmanuel] What's funny, go ahead, bag on me. 650 00:32:38,356 --> 00:32:39,791 What's funny about it? 651 00:32:39,857 --> 00:32:42,360 - [Woman] Everyone's like, oh, you're trying to battle 652 00:32:42,460 --> 00:32:43,861 like the white supremacist system. 653 00:32:43,962 --> 00:32:46,531 You're trying to battle this institutionalized racism. 654 00:32:46,631 --> 00:32:47,932 And all it takes is a white dude 655 00:32:47,999 --> 00:32:49,133 saying that this guy's a racist 656 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:50,802 for a Mexican dude to lose his job. 657 00:32:50,868 --> 00:32:52,370 That's the irony of it. 658 00:32:52,470 --> 00:32:55,606 - There was no punch line in this shit, no punch line. 659 00:32:57,809 --> 00:33:00,545 - I never heard that term, cancel culture, 660 00:33:00,645 --> 00:33:02,880 until after I'd been canceled. 661 00:33:02,981 --> 00:33:04,382 First time I heard it, 662 00:33:04,482 --> 00:33:05,717 this cancel culture stuff has got to go. 663 00:33:05,817 --> 00:33:07,151 I had to look it up. 664 00:33:07,218 --> 00:33:08,553 Like what is that? 665 00:33:08,653 --> 00:33:10,154 - The origins of the term cancel culture 666 00:33:10,221 --> 00:33:11,389 are a little nebulous. 667 00:33:11,489 --> 00:33:15,059 You can trace back dating from 1991. 668 00:33:15,159 --> 00:33:18,796 when the Wesley Snipes film "New Jack City" came out. 669 00:33:18,863 --> 00:33:21,899 (upbeat music) 670 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,668 Basically there's a scene where Wesley Snipes 671 00:33:23,735 --> 00:33:26,004 is breaking up with one of his girlfriends, 672 00:33:26,070 --> 00:33:27,672 or mistresses, and he says- 673 00:33:27,739 --> 00:33:28,706 - Cancel that bitch. 674 00:33:29,674 --> 00:33:31,676 I'll buy another one. 675 00:33:31,743 --> 00:33:33,678 - Right before the term, cancel culture, really takes off. 676 00:33:33,745 --> 00:33:35,580 At the end of 2014, December, 2014, 677 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,082 you have an episode of Love and Hip Hop. 678 00:33:38,182 --> 00:33:39,183 - I have a daughter. 679 00:33:40,184 --> 00:33:41,052 - You what? 680 00:33:41,152 --> 00:33:42,754 - We're all gonna be one big happy family. 681 00:33:42,854 --> 00:33:44,522 - You're canceled. 682 00:33:44,589 --> 00:33:45,990 You're canceled. 683 00:33:47,025 --> 00:33:47,925 - It took off from there. 684 00:33:48,026 --> 00:33:50,595 People started using it initially humorously. 685 00:33:50,695 --> 00:33:54,032 - Finally, welcome to my caucasian home, come inside. 686 00:33:54,098 --> 00:33:55,900 - Well that's over, it's canceled. 687 00:34:01,372 --> 00:34:03,274 - And then it sort of. 688 00:34:03,374 --> 00:34:04,609 (clicking) (gunshot) 689 00:34:04,709 --> 00:34:06,778 (upbeat music) 690 00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:07,612 ♪ Check it out ♪ 691 00:34:07,712 --> 00:34:09,881 - I want to apologize to everybody. 692 00:34:09,947 --> 00:34:11,449 - I want to apologize. 693 00:34:11,549 --> 00:34:12,784 - I'm simply here to apologize. 694 00:34:12,884 --> 00:34:14,519 - I'm just genuinely sorry. 695 00:34:14,585 --> 00:34:15,553 I'm sorry. 696 00:34:15,620 --> 00:34:16,454 - I'm sorry. 697 00:34:16,554 --> 00:34:17,955 - I am so unbelievably sorry. 698 00:34:18,056 --> 00:34:19,223 - And I'm really sorry. 699 00:34:20,291 --> 00:34:22,193 - I beg for your forgiveness. 700 00:34:27,732 --> 00:34:29,400 - I just call it consequence culture. 701 00:34:29,467 --> 00:34:32,870 It's when people make missteps or mistakes and get caught, 702 00:34:32,937 --> 00:34:36,574 and have to face the public court of opinion. 703 00:34:36,641 --> 00:34:40,745 Does it happen sometimes happen to people who are innocent? 704 00:34:40,812 --> 00:34:44,816 Yes, and just like with the judicial system, 705 00:34:44,916 --> 00:34:46,083 we have to address that. 706 00:34:46,150 --> 00:34:48,152 It just, it's not canceling. 707 00:34:48,252 --> 00:34:49,487 There's consequences. 708 00:34:49,587 --> 00:34:51,322 And sometimes the consequences 709 00:34:51,422 --> 00:34:53,091 for sexually harassing women at your job 710 00:34:53,157 --> 00:34:54,559 is to lose that job. 711 00:34:54,625 --> 00:34:57,662 I'm sorry, but maybe you shouldn't have grabbed her ass. 712 00:34:57,762 --> 00:34:59,163 - You say something offensive, 713 00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:01,265 and then you're offended that people are offended. 714 00:35:01,332 --> 00:35:02,500 I don't know what's wrong with you. 715 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:03,668 Stop saying offensive things. 716 00:35:03,768 --> 00:35:04,936 Stop saying stupid things. 717 00:35:05,002 --> 00:35:06,771 Stop saying racist things. 718 00:35:06,838 --> 00:35:09,107 - [Max] Kara Swisher does a lot. 719 00:35:09,173 --> 00:35:10,108 - All right, let's answer some questions 720 00:35:10,174 --> 00:35:11,342 from the New York Times. 721 00:35:11,442 --> 00:35:13,111 I'm Editor at Large, at New York magazine. 722 00:35:13,177 --> 00:35:14,011 What do I think will come out 723 00:35:14,112 --> 00:35:14,846 of these congressional hearings? 724 00:35:14,946 --> 00:35:15,680 Nothing. 725 00:35:15,780 --> 00:35:17,515 I do commentary for NBC. 726 00:35:17,615 --> 00:35:18,449 They make the market, 727 00:35:18,516 --> 00:35:20,017 and then they own the market. 728 00:35:20,118 --> 00:35:21,686 And I do podcasts for Vox media. 729 00:35:21,786 --> 00:35:24,188 I have a lot of content, I make a lot of content. 730 00:35:24,288 --> 00:35:26,457 - [Max] She's also known as one of Silicon Valley's 731 00:35:26,524 --> 00:35:29,160 most feared, but respected journalists. 732 00:35:31,295 --> 00:35:32,697 - What would happen is for years, 733 00:35:32,797 --> 00:35:34,699 people got to say these things without any price. 734 00:35:34,799 --> 00:35:36,134 Other people who never got to talk 735 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,635 are sick and tired of listening to them, 736 00:35:37,702 --> 00:35:40,138 and they're sick and tired of not having a voice too. 737 00:35:40,204 --> 00:35:44,809 And so they're saying your voice on your elite platform 738 00:35:44,876 --> 00:35:46,444 has dominated for so long, 739 00:35:46,511 --> 00:35:47,979 and we don't want to listen to you anymore. 740 00:35:48,045 --> 00:35:49,213 And we're gonna tell you why. 741 00:35:49,313 --> 00:35:51,983 And they're suddenly like, I can't speak. 742 00:35:52,049 --> 00:35:54,652 People in power do not willingly give up power. 743 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,053 You take it from them. 744 00:35:56,154 --> 00:35:57,989 And that's what's happening right now. 745 00:35:58,055 --> 00:36:00,358 So it's gonna be ugly for a while. 746 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:11,502 - The best use of call out culture for me 747 00:36:11,569 --> 00:36:14,839 is to help marginalized people find a voice. 748 00:36:14,906 --> 00:36:17,842 And it's not so coincidental at the same time, 749 00:36:17,909 --> 00:36:19,677 we're finding our voices, 750 00:36:19,744 --> 00:36:22,680 and calling out white supremacy and the patriarchy, 751 00:36:22,747 --> 00:36:25,183 and ableism and homophobia and transphobia, 752 00:36:25,249 --> 00:36:26,417 and all the isms, 753 00:36:26,517 --> 00:36:28,519 that now we're being criticized, 754 00:36:28,586 --> 00:36:30,354 and told that we're lacking reason 755 00:36:30,421 --> 00:36:31,923 and we're lacking civility 756 00:36:32,023 --> 00:36:36,093 and we are suppressing free speech and all that stuff. 757 00:36:36,194 --> 00:36:37,929 I think that we can use it, 758 00:36:38,029 --> 00:36:39,931 but we have to use it judiciously. 759 00:36:40,031 --> 00:36:41,933 - [Monica] Loretta J Ross has been fighting 760 00:36:42,033 --> 00:36:45,269 for human, civil, and women's reproductive rights, 761 00:36:45,369 --> 00:36:46,771 her entire life, 762 00:36:46,871 --> 00:36:50,107 and has long been a luminary in activist communities. 763 00:36:50,208 --> 00:36:52,376 She's also a professor at Smith College, 764 00:36:52,443 --> 00:36:53,778 where she teaches courses 765 00:36:53,878 --> 00:36:57,181 on both intersectionality and white supremacy. 766 00:36:58,549 --> 00:37:01,118 - I think call-outs are wonderful when they're used 767 00:37:01,219 --> 00:37:04,455 to bring corporations into accountability, 768 00:37:04,555 --> 00:37:07,558 to bring political figures who are unreachable 769 00:37:07,625 --> 00:37:08,793 into accountability, 770 00:37:08,893 --> 00:37:12,530 because then public shaming actually works. 771 00:37:12,597 --> 00:37:15,733 But public shaming of people never is effective. 772 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,302 It doesn't really take into account 773 00:37:18,402 --> 00:37:21,405 the humanity of the person being called out. 774 00:37:21,472 --> 00:37:25,810 It doesn't set up any kind of opportunity 775 00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:28,579 to actually achieve accountability. 776 00:37:28,646 --> 00:37:31,983 It's a way of trying to hold people accountable, 777 00:37:32,083 --> 00:37:33,818 theoretically, 778 00:37:33,918 --> 00:37:37,922 but doing it in such a publicly shaming way 779 00:37:37,989 --> 00:37:40,491 that you actually achieve another goal, 780 00:37:40,591 --> 00:37:43,828 and that is to blow up somebody else's life. 781 00:37:43,928 --> 00:37:46,163 - I think outrage is one of those things 782 00:37:46,264 --> 00:37:49,100 that spreads very quickly 783 00:37:49,166 --> 00:37:53,571 and all too often, and I include everyone in this, 784 00:37:53,638 --> 00:37:55,439 we don't do any research. 785 00:37:55,506 --> 00:37:58,109 We just sort of take this person at face value, 786 00:37:58,175 --> 00:38:00,611 when they say this outrageous thing happened 787 00:38:00,678 --> 00:38:03,447 and it just spreads. 788 00:38:16,027 --> 00:38:18,195 - This guy who did this picture. 789 00:38:18,296 --> 00:38:21,198 I think he either he wanted Twitter followers 790 00:38:21,299 --> 00:38:24,502 or he wanted to be a part of the movement somehow, 791 00:38:27,204 --> 00:38:31,475 but he kinda lost his venom early in the fight. 792 00:38:31,542 --> 00:38:32,476 - We spoke to the man 793 00:38:32,543 --> 00:38:34,812 who originally posted the picture on Twitter. 794 00:38:34,879 --> 00:38:36,547 He has since deleted his account 795 00:38:36,647 --> 00:38:38,716 and says he may have gotten spun up 796 00:38:38,816 --> 00:38:41,552 about the interaction and misinterpreted it. 797 00:38:41,652 --> 00:38:43,554 - That was a punch in the gut, another one, 798 00:38:43,654 --> 00:38:46,824 but this couple who re-posted it, 799 00:38:46,891 --> 00:38:48,893 recontacted SDGE, 800 00:38:48,993 --> 00:38:53,397 they never did, like blew the picture up, 801 00:38:53,497 --> 00:38:56,033 changed the filter so you could see my face more. 802 00:39:00,671 --> 00:39:03,074 Time is compounding the 803 00:39:03,174 --> 00:39:05,509 uncomfortable uneasiness uncertainty 804 00:39:05,576 --> 00:39:08,546 that I'm feeling, because now I'm running out of money. 805 00:39:08,646 --> 00:39:10,081 Right? I had some savings. 806 00:39:10,181 --> 00:39:13,884 I had a 401k, but it's depleting. 807 00:39:13,984 --> 00:39:16,887 I've tried to downsize, get a smaller place. 808 00:39:16,987 --> 00:39:19,090 And without a job who rents to you? 809 00:39:19,990 --> 00:39:20,758 Nobody. 810 00:39:26,664 --> 00:39:27,932 (birds chirping) 811 00:39:28,032 --> 00:39:31,769 - [Jon] The problem with social media justice 812 00:39:31,869 --> 00:39:34,772 is that we really want to do the right thing. 813 00:39:34,872 --> 00:39:36,173 We really want to right wrongs, 814 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:40,411 and be moral, good, ethical, empathetic people. 815 00:39:40,511 --> 00:39:43,581 But maybe because we want that so much, 816 00:39:43,681 --> 00:39:47,618 sometimes it gets a little bit dizzying and we, you know, 817 00:39:47,718 --> 00:39:50,354 tear somebody to shreds on no evidence, 818 00:39:50,421 --> 00:39:51,956 not because we're cruel and horrible, 819 00:39:52,056 --> 00:39:53,290 but because we want to do the right thing, 820 00:39:53,391 --> 00:39:54,792 we want to do something good. 821 00:39:56,527 --> 00:39:59,463 - We used to have zap squads where we'd go around 822 00:39:59,563 --> 00:40:02,266 and what would probably now be called doxing, 823 00:40:02,366 --> 00:40:03,768 people who were rapists, 824 00:40:03,868 --> 00:40:05,436 who couldn't be brought to account 825 00:40:05,536 --> 00:40:06,804 in the criminal justice system 826 00:40:06,904 --> 00:40:08,806 and we'd out them in the community, 827 00:40:08,906 --> 00:40:11,475 like this person is a rapist, don't hire them, 828 00:40:11,575 --> 00:40:12,943 that kind of thing. 829 00:40:13,043 --> 00:40:14,412 Lawyers used to get really nervous 830 00:40:14,478 --> 00:40:16,814 around our tactics back then. 831 00:40:16,914 --> 00:40:18,482 We didn't pay any attention. 832 00:40:18,582 --> 00:40:20,418 We took a lot of joy out of that. 833 00:40:21,385 --> 00:40:21,986 Almost, 834 00:40:22,086 --> 00:40:23,821 and that's why I tend to describe 835 00:40:23,921 --> 00:40:25,456 the whole call-out culture, 836 00:40:25,556 --> 00:40:27,992 having more than a tinge of sadism in it, 837 00:40:28,092 --> 00:40:33,097 because I do remember the joy of calling out people. 838 00:40:33,431 --> 00:40:35,466 I cringe thinking about 839 00:40:35,566 --> 00:40:37,935 how much satisfaction I got out of that. 840 00:40:43,741 --> 00:40:47,077 - There are studies that show that dopamine is released 841 00:40:47,144 --> 00:40:49,947 when we see a transgressor being punished. 842 00:40:51,348 --> 00:40:52,616 You see now, I think it's possible 843 00:40:52,683 --> 00:40:54,485 that we just are chasing 844 00:40:54,585 --> 00:40:56,487 that kind of hit that we get 845 00:40:56,587 --> 00:40:59,323 when we see someone that we've perceived to be a wrongdoer, 846 00:40:59,423 --> 00:41:01,292 get that kind of comeuppance. 847 00:41:04,295 --> 00:41:06,697 - People talk a lot about moral outrage. 848 00:41:06,797 --> 00:41:09,867 They talk about injustice. 849 00:41:09,967 --> 00:41:11,869 You know what they're not really talking about 850 00:41:11,969 --> 00:41:13,103 is the pleasure. 851 00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:19,844 They're not talking about why we might 852 00:41:19,944 --> 00:41:21,545 get something from this experience 853 00:41:21,645 --> 00:41:24,114 that is more than morality, 854 00:41:24,181 --> 00:41:25,883 but is actually just about fun. 855 00:41:25,983 --> 00:41:28,519 You know, why do we want to be spectators 856 00:41:28,619 --> 00:41:30,387 of these terrible pile-ons? 857 00:41:30,488 --> 00:41:34,225 Perhaps the answer is what I study, which is Schadenfreude. 858 00:41:36,694 --> 00:41:37,561 - [Max] Tiffany Watt Smith 859 00:41:37,661 --> 00:41:40,064 is also one of the world's leading experts 860 00:41:40,164 --> 00:41:42,566 in Schadenfreude. 861 00:41:42,666 --> 00:41:47,471 - Schaden, from damage, Freude, from joy, Schadenfreude. 862 00:41:48,506 --> 00:41:49,406 It's okay. 863 00:41:49,507 --> 00:41:50,741 The pleasure that you get 864 00:41:50,841 --> 00:41:52,910 in seeing someone else's misfortune. 865 00:41:55,179 --> 00:41:57,548 We feel a lot of Schadenfreude around envy. 866 00:41:57,648 --> 00:42:00,251 You know, when all these people who are better than us 867 00:42:00,351 --> 00:42:01,652 and better looking than us and richer than us, 868 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,054 and they get taken down a peg or two, 869 00:42:04,154 --> 00:42:06,857 and that sort of makes us feel good in that moment. 870 00:42:07,758 --> 00:42:10,394 We see these extraordinary 871 00:42:10,494 --> 00:42:13,764 curated images of people's lives. 872 00:42:13,864 --> 00:42:15,232 And of course, we compare ourselves to them 873 00:42:15,332 --> 00:42:17,501 and we feel like losers. 874 00:42:17,568 --> 00:42:18,936 And of course, 875 00:42:19,036 --> 00:42:22,940 a community of losers is exactly the kind of community 876 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,776 that wants that hit of Schadenfreude, 877 00:42:25,876 --> 00:42:30,347 that wants to feel that ersatz moment of superiority. 878 00:42:30,414 --> 00:42:32,616 (shouting) 879 00:42:35,853 --> 00:42:38,222 (rock music) 880 00:42:41,859 --> 00:42:43,761 There were these Dutch psychologists 881 00:42:43,861 --> 00:42:47,131 and they got football fans to allow their faces 882 00:42:47,231 --> 00:42:51,268 to be rigged up with electromyography pads. 883 00:42:51,368 --> 00:42:52,703 And they show these football fans, 884 00:42:52,770 --> 00:42:55,306 videos of their own team scoring a goal. 885 00:42:56,206 --> 00:42:57,308 And as you'd expect, 886 00:42:57,408 --> 00:42:59,643 everyone was pleased and smiled and so on. 887 00:42:59,743 --> 00:43:01,812 And then they showed them videos 888 00:43:01,912 --> 00:43:04,648 of their arch rival missing goals. 889 00:43:05,382 --> 00:43:08,786 (crowd cheering) 890 00:43:08,886 --> 00:43:11,822 At those videos, that's when they smiled most broadly, 891 00:43:11,922 --> 00:43:13,157 and most quickly, 892 00:43:13,257 --> 00:43:15,626 it wasn't seeing their own teams score a goal, 893 00:43:15,726 --> 00:43:18,228 it was seeing their rivals miss a goal. 894 00:43:19,063 --> 00:43:21,165 (crowd cheering) 895 00:43:21,265 --> 00:43:22,800 What that experiment shows 896 00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:25,669 is that we enjoy seeing other people fail 897 00:43:25,769 --> 00:43:28,238 more than we enjoy winning ourselves. 898 00:43:29,607 --> 00:43:33,310 - [Max] I don't know much about European soccer rivalries, 899 00:43:33,410 --> 00:43:35,813 but we've got a rivalry here in the US 900 00:43:35,913 --> 00:43:38,115 that's been heating up for decades. 901 00:43:39,083 --> 00:43:40,818 (cheering and applause) 902 00:43:40,918 --> 00:43:42,186 - [Crowd] U-S-A! 903 00:43:42,286 --> 00:43:43,921 - Freedom! 904 00:43:45,623 --> 00:43:47,524 - What's being found over and over again 905 00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:50,527 is that Schadenfreude is at its most intense 906 00:43:50,628 --> 00:43:54,198 when we are divided into rival tribes. 907 00:43:55,966 --> 00:43:58,202 And that's a very, very dangerous place 908 00:43:58,302 --> 00:43:59,637 for a society to be in. 909 00:44:00,938 --> 00:44:03,474 (dog barking) 910 00:44:04,942 --> 00:44:08,846 - My husband is a Republican. 911 00:44:08,946 --> 00:44:12,182 My brother's incredibly conservative. 912 00:44:12,282 --> 00:44:15,219 I am incredibly liberal. 913 00:44:15,319 --> 00:44:18,555 And somehow we learn how to coexist. 914 00:44:21,191 --> 00:44:25,062 Even though you are at political ends of the spectrum, 915 00:44:25,162 --> 00:44:27,031 they're still your friends and family, 916 00:44:27,131 --> 00:44:28,699 and they make fun of you, 917 00:44:28,799 --> 00:44:29,900 and just sort of rip on you. 918 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,202 It's like this sort of a blue-collar thing. 919 00:44:32,302 --> 00:44:34,204 When people give it to me, I can dish it right back, 920 00:44:34,304 --> 00:44:35,406 and it's just, it's funny. 921 00:44:35,506 --> 00:44:38,409 - How'd you get the camera, I thought he was the director. 922 00:44:38,509 --> 00:44:40,044 - Shut up. 923 00:44:40,144 --> 00:44:44,848 - I wanted to be in politics, helping women electeds. 924 00:44:47,184 --> 00:44:49,586 I had almost 10 years working 925 00:44:49,687 --> 00:44:54,258 for these amazing female elected officials. 926 00:44:54,358 --> 00:44:55,225 And through that, 927 00:44:55,325 --> 00:44:58,028 I was able to plan my next step. 928 00:44:59,196 --> 00:45:03,100 I had a passion for cancer advocacy. 929 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,571 My father died at a very young age from throat cancer. 930 00:45:07,671 --> 00:45:09,907 I wanted to work in the field, 931 00:45:10,007 --> 00:45:13,343 advocating for cancer patients trying to get funding. 932 00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:14,211 And I did that. 933 00:45:17,715 --> 00:45:21,785 I used Facebook and my Facebook was mostly my kids. 934 00:45:23,353 --> 00:45:25,289 My settings I have it set to private. 935 00:45:26,523 --> 00:45:28,292 Mostly everybody was someone I knew 936 00:45:28,392 --> 00:45:32,262 or had some sort of interaction with. 937 00:45:32,362 --> 00:45:36,633 I didn't have any strangers on my page, 938 00:45:36,734 --> 00:45:39,737 which makes all of this more strange. 939 00:45:46,610 --> 00:45:47,644 Okay, I did. 940 00:45:47,745 --> 00:45:49,279 Sorry, someone told me I could- 941 00:45:49,379 --> 00:45:52,116 That morning that the incident happened, 942 00:45:52,216 --> 00:45:53,784 the only reason why I was even on social media, 943 00:45:53,884 --> 00:45:55,986 because I was trying to source toilet paper 944 00:45:56,086 --> 00:45:57,421 from mommy groups. 945 00:45:58,422 --> 00:45:59,656 As I go on social media, 946 00:45:59,757 --> 00:46:04,628 I see all these articles about the disbelief 947 00:46:04,728 --> 00:46:08,298 that there was a need for ventilators in New York state. 948 00:46:08,398 --> 00:46:10,667 And I got annoyed. 949 00:46:10,768 --> 00:46:12,836 And so I posted the articles, 950 00:46:12,936 --> 00:46:14,004 and I just wrote, 951 00:46:14,104 --> 00:46:17,307 (keyboard keys clicking) 952 00:46:17,407 --> 00:46:18,442 (digital chime) 953 00:46:21,278 --> 00:46:22,246 (digital chime) 954 00:46:23,447 --> 00:46:26,350 (keyboard keys clicking) 955 00:46:26,450 --> 00:46:27,351 (digital chime) 956 00:46:27,451 --> 00:46:28,786 and I see, you know, 957 00:46:28,852 --> 00:46:31,655 a friend says "this isn't real." 958 00:46:31,755 --> 00:46:33,957 Like fine, if you don't think it's real, 959 00:46:34,024 --> 00:46:35,159 don't go to the hospital. 960 00:46:35,259 --> 00:46:36,126 (keyboard keys clicking) 961 00:46:36,193 --> 00:46:37,161 (digital chime) 962 00:46:38,195 --> 00:46:41,532 And then my kids were clamoring at the door. 963 00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:44,168 I went outside for a little bit. 964 00:46:45,803 --> 00:46:50,774 And when I came back, everything was just 965 00:46:52,442 --> 00:46:53,510 lit up. 966 00:46:55,646 --> 00:47:00,551 I was tagged by someone who was in my Facebook friends. 967 00:47:03,687 --> 00:47:05,689 He had given this commentary 968 00:47:05,789 --> 00:47:08,525 to someone who's a public figure. 969 00:47:08,625 --> 00:47:12,362 My friends were telling me it's Michael Caputo, 970 00:47:12,462 --> 00:47:15,165 who's going after you and 971 00:47:16,633 --> 00:47:17,701 then I got scared. 972 00:47:17,801 --> 00:47:19,069 - [Caputo] People like you, 973 00:47:19,169 --> 00:47:21,705 who sit here and take uncorroborated testimony. 974 00:47:21,805 --> 00:47:24,241 - I knew how vicious he could be. 975 00:47:24,341 --> 00:47:27,578 - Decent man, and ruin him because it gets you ratings. 976 00:47:27,678 --> 00:47:28,912 Enough of that. 977 00:47:30,347 --> 00:47:32,983 - I knew he had thousands of followers. 978 00:47:42,359 --> 00:47:45,762 Then I start to get calls and I'm getting text messages 979 00:47:45,863 --> 00:47:47,397 from people I don't know, 980 00:47:47,497 --> 00:47:51,168 and it's like literally my whole world is vibrating. 981 00:47:53,370 --> 00:47:56,506 I issue an apology right away. 982 00:48:00,711 --> 00:48:03,881 But the frenzy just kept growing. 983 00:48:06,016 --> 00:48:08,585 I would see people making comments 984 00:48:08,685 --> 00:48:11,955 saying she has a bot operation on her. 985 00:48:13,690 --> 00:48:17,461 Michael Caputo kept tagging my employer. 986 00:48:19,863 --> 00:48:24,735 And then our newspaper did a story saying I was fired. 987 00:48:27,738 --> 00:48:29,706 And that's how I found out I was fired. 988 00:48:34,211 --> 00:48:37,114 I was at the bottom of this avalanche, 989 00:48:37,214 --> 00:48:39,416 except I didn't know I was in an avalanche, 990 00:48:41,418 --> 00:48:43,754 and I was immediately so humiliated. 991 00:48:47,724 --> 00:48:49,493 I went to a dark place. 992 00:48:55,132 --> 00:48:59,937 I just became this comedic thing on the internet. 993 00:49:01,571 --> 00:49:04,007 And people were just tearing me apart. 994 00:49:08,946 --> 00:49:12,616 - [Max] Laura made a bad joke that offended a lot of people, 995 00:49:13,784 --> 00:49:17,354 but how much of that outrage was even real? 996 00:49:25,262 --> 00:49:30,200 - So in the earlier days of organized online hate mobs, 997 00:49:30,667 --> 00:49:36,039 we saw the use of fake accounts and bots. 998 00:49:36,139 --> 00:49:37,374 - [Monica] Yasmin Green heads up 999 00:49:37,474 --> 00:49:39,543 research and development at Jigsaw, 1000 00:49:39,643 --> 00:49:42,279 which is an independent unit within Google, 1001 00:49:42,346 --> 00:49:45,215 dedicated to solving toxicity on the internet. 1002 00:49:45,315 --> 00:49:47,551 - Then we started to see fake accounts 1003 00:49:47,651 --> 00:49:49,553 with a little bit of investment in them, 1004 00:49:49,653 --> 00:49:50,854 you know a lot of photos. 1005 00:49:50,954 --> 00:49:53,223 They had presence on different platforms. 1006 00:49:53,323 --> 00:49:54,891 The major platforms actually got quite good at spotting 1007 00:49:54,992 --> 00:49:56,560 when there was fake accounts, 1008 00:49:56,660 --> 00:49:59,062 or when somebody was operating in a different country 1009 00:49:59,162 --> 00:50:00,697 to the one they were claiming to be. 1010 00:50:00,797 --> 00:50:02,733 The way this is evolved is, 1011 00:50:02,833 --> 00:50:06,370 kind of worries me for our ability to be able to detect it. 1012 00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:09,406 And that is because the new innovation is, 1013 00:50:09,506 --> 00:50:11,408 and I saw this in the troll farms in the Philippines, 1014 00:50:11,508 --> 00:50:14,378 is that rather than trying to buy fake accounts, 1015 00:50:14,478 --> 00:50:16,046 or create fake accounts, 1016 00:50:16,146 --> 00:50:19,750 they were starting to rent the accounts of real people. 1017 00:50:19,850 --> 00:50:21,918 And once either you convince people 1018 00:50:22,019 --> 00:50:24,588 to do this type of thing in their own name, 1019 00:50:24,688 --> 00:50:28,525 you understand that this is a threat that is not going away. 1020 00:50:31,495 --> 00:50:32,929 - Two, three days later, 1021 00:50:34,197 --> 00:50:36,566 I think it's gonna die down. 1022 00:50:36,666 --> 00:50:38,268 Then I get a call from a friend 1023 00:50:38,368 --> 00:50:40,937 that says you were on Sean Hannity last night. 1024 00:50:42,339 --> 00:50:43,573 I said, oh great. 1025 00:50:43,673 --> 00:50:45,609 - So many villains to choose from sadly 1026 00:50:45,709 --> 00:50:47,277 in the midst of a national emergency. 1027 00:50:47,377 --> 00:50:50,280 But well, there are two hospital executives 1028 00:50:50,380 --> 00:50:51,915 hoping that Donald Trump's supporters 1029 00:50:52,015 --> 00:50:53,950 get infected with coronavirus. 1030 00:50:54,051 --> 00:50:56,019 - One exec wrote, quoting here, 1031 00:50:56,086 --> 00:50:57,454 Trump supporters need to pledge 1032 00:50:57,554 --> 00:51:00,123 to give up their ventilators for someone else. 1033 00:51:00,223 --> 00:51:01,291 - First of all, 1034 00:51:01,391 --> 00:51:03,627 the fact that hospital executives 1035 00:51:03,727 --> 00:51:06,129 are wishing an illness on anyone. 1036 00:51:06,229 --> 00:51:08,598 - [Laura] The story starts to proliferate 1037 00:51:08,698 --> 00:51:11,935 into larger media markets. 1038 00:51:12,035 --> 00:51:14,971 - A high ranking Roswell Park employee has been fired 1039 00:51:15,072 --> 00:51:16,139 following negative comments 1040 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,276 that the person made on social media about supporters. 1041 00:51:19,376 --> 00:51:23,313 - That was the story that got regurgitated 1042 00:51:24,414 --> 00:51:26,650 into all the national media outlets. 1043 00:51:26,750 --> 00:51:29,252 The Hill ran that story. 1044 00:51:30,921 --> 00:51:33,990 (digital chimes) 1045 00:51:34,091 --> 00:51:37,961 And then that same article was then regurgitated 1046 00:51:38,061 --> 00:51:42,399 and bastardized in these alt-right websites. 1047 00:51:43,266 --> 00:51:45,168 They got a lot of play. 1048 00:51:45,268 --> 00:51:46,503 The commentary 1049 00:51:48,138 --> 00:51:49,306 on the page, I mean, they were getting 1050 00:51:49,406 --> 00:51:53,176 thousands of comments on their article. 1051 00:51:53,276 --> 00:51:56,680 I feel like I was just clickbait. 1052 00:51:59,449 --> 00:52:02,586 - Trolling women is big business on the internet. 1053 00:52:02,652 --> 00:52:05,689 I mean, there's an incredible amount of profit 1054 00:52:05,789 --> 00:52:09,526 to be made from the distortion and control 1055 00:52:09,626 --> 00:52:11,661 of people's lives. 1056 00:52:11,761 --> 00:52:13,196 - [Max] Safiya Noble is a Professor 1057 00:52:13,296 --> 00:52:16,700 of African-American and Gender Studies at UCLA, 1058 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,703 a board member of the cyber civil rights initiative, 1059 00:52:19,803 --> 00:52:22,372 and the author of Algorithms of Oppression. 1060 00:52:23,773 --> 00:52:26,042 - Clicking on those stories, reading those stories 1061 00:52:26,143 --> 00:52:28,945 is a money generator for those platforms. 1062 00:52:29,012 --> 00:52:31,681 And the more they can spin that story 1063 00:52:31,781 --> 00:52:35,352 in a shameful, degrading, titillating way, 1064 00:52:35,452 --> 00:52:37,354 the more money they're gonna make. 1065 00:52:37,454 --> 00:52:38,855 So we want to always remember 1066 00:52:38,955 --> 00:52:41,725 that across all internet platforms 1067 00:52:41,825 --> 00:52:43,860 engagement is the business model. 1068 00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,196 If the engagement is around misogyny, 1069 00:52:46,296 --> 00:52:47,731 that's just as profitable 1070 00:52:47,831 --> 00:52:50,200 as if the engagement is around education 1071 00:52:50,300 --> 00:52:52,969 or some other type of entertainment. 1072 00:52:53,036 --> 00:52:57,474 This is the big money-making model of the internet. 1073 00:53:00,177 --> 00:53:02,579 (soft music) 1074 00:53:04,981 --> 00:53:07,584 (birds chirping) 1075 00:53:07,684 --> 00:53:09,886 - [Max] Tristan Harris used to work at Google, 1076 00:53:09,986 --> 00:53:13,223 but then he had a crisis of faith, left the company, 1077 00:53:13,323 --> 00:53:16,259 and started the Center for Humane Technology. 1078 00:53:16,359 --> 00:53:17,894 The Atlantic once called him 1079 00:53:17,994 --> 00:53:21,565 the closest thing Silicon Valley has to a conscience. 1080 00:53:21,665 --> 00:53:23,433 If someone could tell us how big tech 1081 00:53:23,533 --> 00:53:26,770 is making money off of our humiliation, it's him. 1082 00:53:27,904 --> 00:53:29,339 - So, you know, 1083 00:53:29,406 --> 00:53:31,107 how does the business model relate to these problems? 1084 00:53:31,208 --> 00:53:32,409 Well, how much have you paid 1085 00:53:32,509 --> 00:53:33,843 for your Facebook account recently? 1086 00:53:35,178 --> 00:53:35,912 Or Twitter? 1087 00:53:36,012 --> 00:53:37,080 Well, if you haven't paid anything, 1088 00:53:37,180 --> 00:53:40,617 then what are they making $500 billion of market value 1089 00:53:40,717 --> 00:53:42,452 and their stock price from? 1090 00:53:42,552 --> 00:53:43,787 Well, they're selling human attention, 1091 00:53:43,887 --> 00:53:46,022 because the business model is advertising, 1092 00:53:47,891 --> 00:53:49,125 but it's not just that 1093 00:53:49,226 --> 00:53:51,628 they want to show you a rectangle with an ad. 1094 00:53:51,728 --> 00:53:53,296 To get you to see those ads, 1095 00:53:53,396 --> 00:53:55,265 it means they have to get your attention. 1096 00:53:55,365 --> 00:53:58,301 So one study from NYU found 1097 00:53:58,401 --> 00:54:00,804 that for every word of moral outrage, 1098 00:54:00,904 --> 00:54:03,807 negative, moral emotions, that you added to a tweet, 1099 00:54:03,907 --> 00:54:07,310 it's horrible, it's a disgrace, it's an abomination, 1100 00:54:07,410 --> 00:54:10,880 it increased the retweet rate by 13%. 1101 00:54:12,382 --> 00:54:13,984 It's not like at Twitter there's just Jack Dorsey, 1102 00:54:14,084 --> 00:54:15,151 sitting at the top, 1103 00:54:15,252 --> 00:54:17,153 thinking that tweet, I'll promote that tweet over there. 1104 00:54:17,254 --> 00:54:18,455 And this that's a good one, 1105 00:54:18,555 --> 00:54:20,156 I'll promote that tweet over there. 1106 00:54:20,257 --> 00:54:22,726 In fact, the reason these tech companies are so profitable, 1107 00:54:22,792 --> 00:54:24,327 is that a machine is choosing 1108 00:54:24,427 --> 00:54:26,896 which tweets to show at the very top of the list. 1109 00:54:28,431 --> 00:54:31,301 If you think about you driving down the highway, 1110 00:54:31,401 --> 00:54:33,003 and you had a computer that was like, okay, 1111 00:54:33,103 --> 00:54:34,671 what does this person want? 1112 00:54:34,771 --> 00:54:35,839 And we're gonna determine that 1113 00:54:35,939 --> 00:54:37,507 based on what their eyes look at. 1114 00:54:37,607 --> 00:54:39,142 Well, when you drive down a highway, 1115 00:54:39,242 --> 00:54:40,510 suddenly there's a big car crash 1116 00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:41,845 and your eye just like stares 1117 00:54:41,945 --> 00:54:43,513 at this car crash as you go by, 1118 00:54:43,613 --> 00:54:45,915 the computer says, oh, I know this person wants car crashes. 1119 00:54:45,982 --> 00:54:47,350 And they start feeding you car crash 1120 00:54:47,450 --> 00:54:49,653 after car crash after car crash. 1121 00:54:49,753 --> 00:54:51,855 And that's what the Twitter algorithm is like. 1122 00:54:51,955 --> 00:54:56,526 (upbeat orchestral music) 1123 00:54:56,626 --> 00:54:58,194 - One of the things we want to understand 1124 00:54:58,295 --> 00:54:59,529 is that the way most people 1125 00:54:59,629 --> 00:55:03,166 think of algorithms or kind of AI systems, 1126 00:55:03,266 --> 00:55:04,868 is most people think of these 1127 00:55:04,968 --> 00:55:07,537 as being just neutral and objective. 1128 00:55:07,637 --> 00:55:09,339 But you see what they're interested in 1129 00:55:09,439 --> 00:55:13,543 is drawing eyeballs to material in their platforms. 1130 00:55:13,643 --> 00:55:17,280 (uptempo orchestral music) 1131 00:55:19,616 --> 00:55:21,518 - They kind of created this Frankenstein. 1132 00:55:21,618 --> 00:55:23,687 All it knows is, oh, if that gets attention, 1133 00:55:23,787 --> 00:55:25,355 then my job is to elevate it, 1134 00:55:25,455 --> 00:55:27,157 make sure everyone sees that thing. 1135 00:55:28,992 --> 00:55:31,394 I often think about being a kid 1136 00:55:31,494 --> 00:55:32,395 on the playgrounds, you know, 1137 00:55:32,495 --> 00:55:33,897 when you see the two kids 1138 00:55:33,997 --> 00:55:36,066 kind of just barely start to disagree with each other, 1139 00:55:36,166 --> 00:55:37,867 and some third kid shows up and goes, 1140 00:55:37,967 --> 00:55:39,869 fight, fight, fight, fight. 1141 00:55:39,969 --> 00:55:41,404 Well, that's like Twitter. 1142 00:55:42,472 --> 00:55:44,708 (dramatic orchestral music) 1143 00:55:44,808 --> 00:55:48,211 - The algorithmic bias is really about 1144 00:55:48,311 --> 00:55:51,581 looking for titillating kinds of content. 1145 00:55:51,681 --> 00:55:53,416 And much of that is racist, 1146 00:55:53,516 --> 00:55:56,586 it's sexist, it's inflammatory. 1147 00:55:56,686 --> 00:55:59,389 (dramatic orchestral music) 1148 00:55:59,489 --> 00:56:01,324 And it's also a big business. 1149 00:56:02,992 --> 00:56:04,260 - You think about outrage as an emotion. 1150 00:56:04,361 --> 00:56:05,729 It causes you to shut down 1151 00:56:05,829 --> 00:56:08,231 and act more reactively and impulsively. 1152 00:56:08,331 --> 00:56:10,600 And usually in that reactive action, 1153 00:56:10,700 --> 00:56:12,769 we're not gonna like yell at the plant in our room, 1154 00:56:12,869 --> 00:56:14,738 we're gonna hit the button that's available 1155 00:56:14,838 --> 00:56:17,107 to show other people why we're right. 1156 00:56:19,075 --> 00:56:22,112 - And the more that people look at it and click on it, 1157 00:56:22,212 --> 00:56:23,713 the more those companies make. 1158 00:56:25,215 --> 00:56:28,618 - I say why I'm angry, I'm contributing more content. 1159 00:56:28,718 --> 00:56:30,453 You didn't have to pay me for that. 1160 00:56:33,757 --> 00:56:36,459 So I'm a useful idiot in a scam 1161 00:56:36,559 --> 00:56:39,295 to create more attention for everyone else. 1162 00:56:39,396 --> 00:56:42,098 (dramatic orchestral music) 1163 00:56:42,198 --> 00:56:45,301 You run that algorithm for three to 10 years, 1164 00:56:45,402 --> 00:56:48,571 and you let society run through that washing machine. 1165 00:56:49,873 --> 00:56:53,276 That dystopia is exactly the world that we live in now. 1166 00:56:53,376 --> 00:56:56,646 We're more profitable if we're addicted, outraged, 1167 00:56:56,746 --> 00:56:59,449 irritable, disinformed, and polarized, 1168 00:56:59,549 --> 00:57:00,884 than if we're a human being. 1169 00:57:02,085 --> 00:57:05,755 (dramatic orchestral music) 1170 00:57:12,762 --> 00:57:15,432 (water burbles) 1171 00:57:33,283 --> 00:57:34,150 - Okay, so there are a couple of things 1172 00:57:34,250 --> 00:57:36,486 that we have to understand. 1173 00:57:36,586 --> 00:57:40,023 When you pick up your phone, when you log on, 1174 00:57:40,123 --> 00:57:42,358 it's not just a transaction, 1175 00:57:42,459 --> 00:57:45,662 you're actually going somewhere. 1176 00:57:45,762 --> 00:57:47,330 And the place that you're going 1177 00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:51,267 is a powerful psychological space. 1178 00:57:53,269 --> 00:57:54,871 - [Max] Mary Aiken is one of the world's 1179 00:57:54,971 --> 00:57:58,508 leading experts in forensic cyber psychology. 1180 00:57:58,608 --> 00:58:00,043 She works with Interpol, 1181 00:58:00,143 --> 00:58:02,345 the European Cyber Crime Center, 1182 00:58:02,445 --> 00:58:04,180 and the United States government 1183 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,884 to help track down cyber criminals around the world. 1184 00:58:07,984 --> 00:58:11,187 - Human behavior changes online. 1185 00:58:11,287 --> 00:58:16,226 There are powerful psychological drivers, or effects, 1186 00:58:16,559 --> 00:58:19,896 like the online disinhibition effect. 1187 00:58:19,996 --> 00:58:23,900 Online disinhibition is like inebriation, 1188 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:25,635 or being drunk online. 1189 00:58:26,836 --> 00:58:28,805 It means that you do things online 1190 00:58:28,872 --> 00:58:30,974 that you wouldn't do in the real world. 1191 00:58:32,642 --> 00:58:35,478 As we're given opportunities to have platforms 1192 00:58:35,545 --> 00:58:39,883 where we can actively target people relentlessly, 1193 00:58:39,983 --> 00:58:44,721 what we've seen is decreasing levels of empathy 1194 00:58:44,821 --> 00:58:48,424 in students surveyed across the US, 1195 00:58:48,525 --> 00:58:51,427 and increasing levels of narcissism. 1196 00:58:55,899 --> 00:58:59,736 As we continue our journey with technology, 1197 00:58:59,836 --> 00:59:02,405 I think the most important thing 1198 00:59:02,505 --> 00:59:06,576 is that we remember what it is to be human. 1199 00:59:06,676 --> 00:59:11,080 If however, we see the rise of the narcissists 1200 00:59:11,180 --> 00:59:14,450 then we're going to 1201 00:59:14,551 --> 00:59:19,522 live in a very ugly society going forward. 1202 00:59:21,357 --> 00:59:24,694 - [Amy] Welcome to Democracy Now, democracynow.org. 1203 00:59:24,761 --> 00:59:25,929 I'm Amy Goodman. 1204 00:59:26,029 --> 00:59:29,465 Michael Caputo, a long-time Republican political operative, 1205 00:59:29,566 --> 00:59:31,434 and Trump ally was appointed last week 1206 00:59:31,534 --> 00:59:34,637 as Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs at HHS. 1207 00:59:36,039 --> 00:59:41,277 - Michael Caputo, who managed the effort against me 1208 00:59:42,378 --> 00:59:45,715 was appointed to the White House. 1209 00:59:46,816 --> 00:59:48,818 - [Reporter] Michael Caputo has no health background, 1210 00:59:48,918 --> 00:59:51,220 no science background whatsoever, 1211 00:59:51,287 --> 00:59:52,789 but in April, the Trump White House 1212 00:59:52,889 --> 00:59:54,824 installed him as the top spokesperson 1213 00:59:54,924 --> 00:59:57,160 at the Department of Health and Human Services. 1214 00:59:57,260 --> 00:59:58,928 - Department of Health and Human Services' 1215 00:59:58,995 --> 01:00:01,764 new spokesperson repeatedly made racist comments 1216 01:00:01,831 --> 01:00:03,833 about Chinese people and claimed Democrats 1217 01:00:03,933 --> 01:00:06,269 wanted the coronavirus to kill thousands. 1218 01:00:09,105 --> 01:00:11,107 - His employer said, so what? 1219 01:00:16,112 --> 01:00:18,848 And he said, so what? 1220 01:00:18,948 --> 01:00:20,617 So what I said these things? 1221 01:00:23,953 --> 01:00:25,355 - A really bad, 1222 01:00:25,455 --> 01:00:28,024 and I think probably unexpected consequence 1223 01:00:28,124 --> 01:00:30,526 of the over use of public shaming as a weapon 1224 01:00:30,627 --> 01:00:33,196 is that some transgressors are mutated 1225 01:00:33,296 --> 01:00:34,998 to become impervious to shame. 1226 01:00:36,633 --> 01:00:39,535 - If you look at Darwinian principles 1227 01:00:39,636 --> 01:00:42,205 of survival of the fittest, 1228 01:00:42,305 --> 01:00:46,876 what we're looking at is survival of the shameless. 1229 01:00:46,976 --> 01:00:49,679 - Some trolls are misogynists, some are homophobes, 1230 01:00:49,779 --> 01:00:52,548 some are genuinely cruel. 1231 01:00:52,649 --> 01:00:54,317 The challenge is that you rarely know 1232 01:00:54,384 --> 01:00:57,520 which flavor of troll they are, 1233 01:00:57,620 --> 01:01:00,323 and which are going 1234 01:01:00,390 --> 01:01:02,392 to take it too far 1235 01:01:02,492 --> 01:01:05,461 and bring it off of the internet and into the world. 1236 01:01:12,635 --> 01:01:13,836 - [Taylor] I had applied to eight different 1237 01:01:13,903 --> 01:01:15,038 colleges and universities, 1238 01:01:15,138 --> 01:01:18,241 and I got a text message from my mom in my English class 1239 01:01:18,341 --> 01:01:19,676 in my senior year saying, 1240 01:01:19,742 --> 01:01:21,577 "I have one more school for you to apply to, 1241 01:01:21,678 --> 01:01:23,379 and it's American University." 1242 01:01:23,479 --> 01:01:25,715 And so I got to see American University's campus. 1243 01:01:25,815 --> 01:01:28,418 And I walked around the quad and I was able to see 1244 01:01:29,352 --> 01:01:30,887 myself there and to really think 1245 01:01:30,987 --> 01:01:33,723 like I could definitely just sit out on the grass 1246 01:01:33,823 --> 01:01:35,725 and just relax, like a college student. 1247 01:01:35,825 --> 01:01:37,260 And I applied to American, 1248 01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,328 and that ended up being my first choice. 1249 01:01:40,863 --> 01:01:42,565 As a black student at AU, 1250 01:01:42,665 --> 01:01:44,600 I was gonna put in a bunch of work 1251 01:01:44,701 --> 01:01:46,269 to try and make sure that the university 1252 01:01:46,369 --> 01:01:48,838 was a better place than the place that I came into. 1253 01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:51,874 I was Vice President for Student Advocates 1254 01:01:51,941 --> 01:01:53,242 for Native Communities. 1255 01:01:53,342 --> 01:01:56,612 I was involved in the Black Student Alliance. 1256 01:01:56,713 --> 01:01:58,281 - So much of who she is today 1257 01:01:58,381 --> 01:02:01,384 is who she was when she was growing up. 1258 01:02:01,451 --> 01:02:03,052 - When I was in elementary school, 1259 01:02:03,119 --> 01:02:04,620 I wanted to be an astronaut, 1260 01:02:04,721 --> 01:02:05,955 but I'm actually afraid of heights, 1261 01:02:06,055 --> 01:02:08,224 so that kind of went out the window. 1262 01:02:08,291 --> 01:02:11,627 - [Kim] We always were ready to prepare her 1263 01:02:11,728 --> 01:02:14,397 for understanding who she was. 1264 01:02:14,464 --> 01:02:16,899 - [Taylor] My dad's mom went to the March on Washington. 1265 01:02:16,966 --> 01:02:19,635 My grandmother did sit-ins with SNCC. 1266 01:02:19,736 --> 01:02:21,270 - Whether that meant understanding 1267 01:02:21,370 --> 01:02:23,139 her own family roots 1268 01:02:23,239 --> 01:02:24,574 or understanding the accomplishments 1269 01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,110 of people of color. 1270 01:02:27,210 --> 01:02:29,445 - I came from a long line of freedom fighters, 1271 01:02:29,545 --> 01:02:32,081 and that was what I really was interested in doing. 1272 01:02:33,416 --> 01:02:34,617 I became a member 1273 01:02:34,717 --> 01:02:35,818 of Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated. 1274 01:02:35,918 --> 01:02:38,554 And I became the intercultural Greek Collective President. 1275 01:02:38,621 --> 01:02:40,123 By the time that I was a junior, 1276 01:02:40,223 --> 01:02:42,158 I was like, okay but like what's next? 1277 01:02:42,258 --> 01:02:44,427 And I decided that I needed to run 1278 01:02:44,494 --> 01:02:46,262 for Student Government President. 1279 01:02:46,329 --> 01:02:47,563 I remember stopping students 1280 01:02:47,630 --> 01:02:48,831 that were just walking on the way to class. 1281 01:02:48,931 --> 01:02:50,333 Hey, hold on a second. 1282 01:02:50,433 --> 01:02:51,801 Have you voted for Student Government President? 1283 01:02:51,901 --> 01:02:53,603 I'm running, please vote. 1284 01:02:53,669 --> 01:02:57,340 The odds were not in my favor, it looked like at first. 1285 01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:58,841 And the person's like. 1286 01:02:58,941 --> 01:03:02,078 - Taylor Dumpson. (crowd cheering) 1287 01:03:02,145 --> 01:03:04,447 - I don't have words for this. 1288 01:03:04,514 --> 01:03:05,515 I just, 1289 01:03:05,615 --> 01:03:07,850 I don't have any words. 1290 01:03:07,950 --> 01:03:10,453 And then I went home and I went to sleep, 1291 01:03:12,455 --> 01:03:13,689 and I woke up. 1292 01:03:14,924 --> 01:03:15,858 And when I was coming out of the train, 1293 01:03:15,958 --> 01:03:17,360 I was reading my phone, 1294 01:03:19,095 --> 01:03:21,998 and I had seen a message from one of my classmates, 1295 01:03:22,098 --> 01:03:24,534 who said, Taylor, I don't know if you've seen this yet, 1296 01:03:24,634 --> 01:03:26,536 but I just wanted to share it with you. 1297 01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:34,877 - [News Reporter] A still unidentified person 1298 01:03:34,977 --> 01:03:37,046 committed the on-campus hate crime, 1299 01:03:37,146 --> 01:03:38,881 stringing up bananas with nooses, 1300 01:03:38,981 --> 01:03:41,384 with the initials of the historically black sorority 1301 01:03:41,484 --> 01:03:44,487 Dumpson belongs to, and other racist messages. 1302 01:03:45,655 --> 01:03:47,056 - I remember going to the bathroom, 1303 01:03:47,156 --> 01:03:49,959 locking myself in the far stall, and I called my mom. 1304 01:03:50,026 --> 01:03:54,530 - At this point we have a number of outside investigators, 1305 01:03:54,630 --> 01:03:57,800 including the FBI, including the... 1306 01:03:57,867 --> 01:04:00,403 - [Taylor] I hadn't processed anything. 1307 01:04:01,637 --> 01:04:04,974 I was going into, okay, crisis mode. 1308 01:04:05,041 --> 01:04:07,510 How do I make sure that students are safe? 1309 01:04:07,577 --> 01:04:10,079 I didn't really give myself the space to feel. 1310 01:04:12,348 --> 01:04:15,585 It was like, everybody's looking to you to be president, 1311 01:04:15,685 --> 01:04:17,720 so you don't really have a chance to process 1312 01:04:17,820 --> 01:04:19,255 that this is targeting you. 1313 01:04:21,357 --> 01:04:22,859 - You know, when you see public shaming, 1314 01:04:22,925 --> 01:04:24,260 people are trying to shame them 1315 01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:25,895 for things that they've done. 1316 01:04:25,995 --> 01:04:29,398 But the harassment that is identity-based, 1317 01:04:29,498 --> 01:04:32,068 is bigotry in action. 1318 01:04:32,168 --> 01:04:35,771 And they're not the same thing. 1319 01:04:35,872 --> 01:04:39,208 When people are harassed for their identity, 1320 01:04:39,275 --> 01:04:42,278 that harassment sometimes ends in a noose. 1321 01:04:42,378 --> 01:04:45,414 It sometimes ends in a murder. 1322 01:04:45,514 --> 01:04:47,717 Whereas when someone is being publicly shamed 1323 01:04:47,783 --> 01:04:49,552 for a mistake that they've made, 1324 01:04:50,786 --> 01:04:53,089 they're generally gonna reap some repercussions, 1325 01:04:53,189 --> 01:04:54,757 and some of those repercussions are horrible, 1326 01:04:54,857 --> 01:04:57,627 but they're not going to lose their life at the end of it. 1327 01:05:01,364 --> 01:05:04,066 - [Loretta] We kept warning people 1328 01:05:04,133 --> 01:05:06,435 that these storm clouds were coming, 1329 01:05:06,535 --> 01:05:07,970 but we felt like Chicken Little, 1330 01:05:08,070 --> 01:05:09,572 because nobody was listening, 1331 01:05:09,639 --> 01:05:12,074 particularly with the elections of Bill Clinton, 1332 01:05:12,141 --> 01:05:14,810 and then the election of President Obama, 1333 01:05:14,911 --> 01:05:17,780 everybody thought that it was all over, 1334 01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:19,815 that we have turned the corner on 1335 01:05:19,916 --> 01:05:22,118 a dreadful history in America, 1336 01:05:22,218 --> 01:05:25,755 and we were gonna march forward into the 21st century. 1337 01:05:25,821 --> 01:05:28,090 And we saw how that turned out, didn't we? 1338 01:05:28,491 --> 01:05:30,960 - [Crowd] You will not replace us! 1339 01:05:31,060 --> 01:05:33,996 You will not replace us! 1340 01:05:34,096 --> 01:05:35,965 - [Loretta] There's a white grievance culture 1341 01:05:36,065 --> 01:05:38,801 that's still out there resentful of the women's movement, 1342 01:05:38,901 --> 01:05:40,636 resentful of civil rights, 1343 01:05:40,736 --> 01:05:45,474 resentful of the fact that their power to dominate 1344 01:05:45,574 --> 01:05:47,977 everything in our society is being challenged 1345 01:05:48,077 --> 01:05:49,278 by these social movements. 1346 01:05:51,414 --> 01:05:56,852 (crowds yelling and chanting indistinctly) 1347 01:05:59,422 --> 01:06:00,823 - [Taylor] My mom had just dropped me off 1348 01:06:00,923 --> 01:06:01,991 at my apartment, 1349 01:06:02,091 --> 01:06:04,360 and she was like, "Taylor, you need to get some sleep." 1350 01:06:06,429 --> 01:06:09,165 I got an email from the Anti-Defamation League. 1351 01:06:10,933 --> 01:06:12,501 We would like to notify you about 1352 01:06:12,601 --> 01:06:15,004 an emerging online campaign targeting 1353 01:06:15,104 --> 01:06:17,206 Student Body President Taylor Dumpson. 1354 01:06:17,306 --> 01:06:19,976 Andrew Anglin, founder of the neo-Nazi website, 1355 01:06:20,042 --> 01:06:22,645 The Daily Stormer, is encouraging his followers 1356 01:06:22,712 --> 01:06:26,215 to troll Miss Dumpson and any related social media accounts. 1357 01:06:27,850 --> 01:06:31,821 Andrew Anglin runs a website called The Daily Stormer, 1358 01:06:31,887 --> 01:06:33,522 which is one of the most clicked on 1359 01:06:33,622 --> 01:06:36,192 white supremacist websites in the world. 1360 01:06:37,727 --> 01:06:40,863 He wrote the article and published that actually 1361 01:06:40,963 --> 01:06:43,165 on a section called Race War. 1362 01:06:47,370 --> 01:06:49,572 These comments that I saw initially 1363 01:06:49,672 --> 01:06:51,907 were underneath of his article, 1364 01:06:52,008 --> 01:06:54,710 but that was not where they stopped. 1365 01:06:54,810 --> 01:06:58,914 He really opened up Pandora's Box and you can't close that. 1366 01:07:01,417 --> 01:07:03,986 Those people left The Daily Stormer, 1367 01:07:04,053 --> 01:07:07,089 and continued to comment on any kind of post 1368 01:07:07,189 --> 01:07:08,724 where there's a comment section 1369 01:07:08,824 --> 01:07:10,860 that has something to do with me. 1370 01:07:10,926 --> 01:07:12,728 - [News Reporter] A hate-filled feeding frenzy 1371 01:07:12,828 --> 01:07:14,897 began when the website published her name, 1372 01:07:14,997 --> 01:07:18,434 photo, contact information, and social media accounts. 1373 01:07:18,534 --> 01:07:22,838 - [Man] He told his many, many followers to go get her. 1374 01:07:22,905 --> 01:07:25,007 - My heart jumped to my throat. 1375 01:07:25,074 --> 01:07:26,108 I started shaking. 1376 01:07:27,343 --> 01:07:30,079 I got up and I closed the blinds. 1377 01:07:30,179 --> 01:07:31,580 I turned the lights off. 1378 01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:32,948 I locked the doors. 1379 01:07:34,583 --> 01:07:37,420 I read the comments and I read the articles. 1380 01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:41,123 I looked at every single comment. 1381 01:07:45,561 --> 01:07:48,764 I've seen the N word, I've heard the N word in person. 1382 01:07:48,864 --> 01:07:54,103 But seeing in that way, people were gendering racial slurs. 1383 01:07:54,203 --> 01:07:55,471 So they weren't just calling me a nigger, 1384 01:07:55,571 --> 01:07:57,139 they were calling me a nigger agitator. 1385 01:07:57,239 --> 01:07:58,574 They weren't just calling me a nigger agitator, 1386 01:07:58,641 --> 01:07:59,775 they were calling me a Negress. 1387 01:07:59,875 --> 01:08:00,943 They weren't just calling me a Negress, 1388 01:08:01,043 --> 01:08:02,478 they were calling me a sheboon. 1389 01:08:04,780 --> 01:08:06,949 Sometimes people think of harassment 1390 01:08:07,049 --> 01:08:09,919 as one person saying a bunch of things. 1391 01:08:09,985 --> 01:08:12,922 But what happens when it's hundreds of people 1392 01:08:12,988 --> 01:08:14,590 saying one thing? 1393 01:08:17,593 --> 01:08:20,296 - Everyone is not equal on the internet. 1394 01:08:20,396 --> 01:08:24,767 People who are vulnerable are often made more vulnerable. 1395 01:08:24,834 --> 01:08:28,504 People who are powerful are often made even more powerful. 1396 01:08:28,604 --> 01:08:30,806 There are already so many ways 1397 01:08:30,906 --> 01:08:33,008 in which harms are enacted against people, 1398 01:08:33,109 --> 01:08:37,680 vulnerable people, people of color, trans people, women. 1399 01:08:37,780 --> 01:08:42,118 When you are fomenting hate or misognying on the internet, 1400 01:08:42,184 --> 01:08:43,319 you really don't have, 1401 01:08:43,419 --> 01:08:44,987 no one's gonna hold you accountable. 1402 01:08:45,087 --> 01:08:49,024 It's like the ultimate cover for crime. 1403 01:08:52,695 --> 01:08:54,630 - Initially I filed a police report, 1404 01:08:54,697 --> 01:08:57,833 but I'm sitting here right now I can't say that 1405 01:08:57,933 --> 01:09:01,203 I remember them following up too much on that. 1406 01:09:01,303 --> 01:09:02,471 They were very much like, 1407 01:09:02,538 --> 01:09:03,506 there's not much we can do for you. 1408 01:09:03,606 --> 01:09:04,807 It's like online. 1409 01:09:04,874 --> 01:09:07,510 I mean, it's not really crossing the line. 1410 01:09:07,610 --> 01:09:11,714 And I'm like, it's illegal to place a threat over the phone. 1411 01:09:11,814 --> 01:09:13,649 So like, I don't really understand 1412 01:09:13,716 --> 01:09:15,050 what you're talking about. 1413 01:09:16,318 --> 01:09:18,787 - [Max] The legal situation surrounding cyber harassment 1414 01:09:18,854 --> 01:09:22,725 in the United States is a bit nebulous. 1415 01:09:22,825 --> 01:09:24,994 So we went to talk to someone 1416 01:09:25,060 --> 01:09:26,729 who could demystify it for us. 1417 01:09:27,963 --> 01:09:31,367 - I've been described as a renegade lawyer, 1418 01:09:31,467 --> 01:09:34,069 as a social justice warrior, 1419 01:09:34,170 --> 01:09:36,372 as a complete asshole. (laughs) 1420 01:09:36,472 --> 01:09:38,741 - [Monica] Carrie Goldberg is one of the few lawyers 1421 01:09:38,841 --> 01:09:40,743 in the US that specializes 1422 01:09:40,843 --> 01:09:43,412 in defending victims of cyber harassment. 1423 01:09:43,512 --> 01:09:48,517 - It was the victim of a retaliatory ex-boyfriend, 1424 01:09:49,151 --> 01:09:51,387 and I couldn't find a lawyer who could help me. 1425 01:09:51,487 --> 01:09:54,690 And when I finally got to the other side of my crisis, 1426 01:09:54,757 --> 01:09:56,492 I stopped everything. 1427 01:09:56,559 --> 01:09:59,428 I left my very secure job at a non-profit, 1428 01:09:59,528 --> 01:10:02,031 and started this law firm. 1429 01:10:05,334 --> 01:10:09,104 Social media companies are the most malicious, 1430 01:10:09,205 --> 01:10:13,209 but untouchable actor when it comes to online harms. 1431 01:10:13,275 --> 01:10:17,079 We have no right to demand that they remove our content. 1432 01:10:17,179 --> 01:10:18,914 Even if they have policies, 1433 01:10:19,014 --> 01:10:20,783 there is no legal obligation 1434 01:10:20,883 --> 01:10:23,552 for them to enforce those policies. 1435 01:10:23,619 --> 01:10:27,590 Try to find anywhere on Facebook or Google, 1436 01:10:27,690 --> 01:10:29,725 where you have some sort of ability 1437 01:10:29,792 --> 01:10:32,528 to email or contact somebody. 1438 01:10:32,595 --> 01:10:34,730 - You don't really hear back from Facebook. 1439 01:10:34,797 --> 01:10:37,433 They just say, thank you. 1440 01:10:37,533 --> 01:10:40,769 If you feel like you're being harassed, 1441 01:10:40,869 --> 01:10:42,972 you can just block this person. 1442 01:10:43,072 --> 01:10:45,307 - Mark Zuckerberg has created a city 1443 01:10:45,407 --> 01:10:48,978 that has no police, has no firemen or firewomen. 1444 01:10:49,078 --> 01:10:51,947 They have no water department that works. 1445 01:10:52,047 --> 01:10:54,883 They have no electrical department that's regular, 1446 01:10:54,950 --> 01:10:57,720 but they collect all the rent for all of us that live there. 1447 01:10:57,786 --> 01:10:59,755 And every night they go, good luck. 1448 01:10:59,822 --> 01:11:01,924 - They won't take responsibility. 1449 01:11:01,991 --> 01:11:03,225 I think it's because of hubris. 1450 01:11:03,292 --> 01:11:04,793 I think it's because of laziness. 1451 01:11:04,893 --> 01:11:09,098 But most of all, I think it's because of section 230. 1452 01:11:09,164 --> 01:11:13,002 ("Beethoven's Ninth Symphony") 1453 01:11:13,102 --> 01:11:15,437 (gun firing) 1454 01:11:15,504 --> 01:11:18,140 - [Max] Section 230 has been in the news a lot lately, 1455 01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:21,010 because everybody seems to have a problem with it, 1456 01:11:21,110 --> 01:11:23,479 but they just can't agree on how to fix it. 1457 01:11:25,914 --> 01:11:28,851 Section 230 is part of a law that says that tech companies 1458 01:11:28,951 --> 01:11:32,788 can't be sued for anything users post on their platforms. 1459 01:11:32,855 --> 01:11:35,858 But the thing is when it was passed in 1996, 1460 01:11:35,958 --> 01:11:37,526 it was actually a good thing. 1461 01:11:38,761 --> 01:11:40,796 Without having to worry about being sued, 1462 01:11:40,863 --> 01:11:44,333 plucky tech startups could innovate and create. 1463 01:11:44,433 --> 01:11:47,636 But now as online harms become an everyday reality, 1464 01:11:47,703 --> 01:11:48,704 they're being forced to grapple 1465 01:11:48,804 --> 01:11:50,839 with their broad immunity more and more. 1466 01:11:50,939 --> 01:11:52,374 - Mister Dorsey 1467 01:11:52,474 --> 01:11:54,209 from Twitter, the floor is yours. 1468 01:11:54,310 --> 01:11:55,844 - We acknowledged there's still concerns 1469 01:11:55,944 --> 01:11:57,946 around how we moderate content, 1470 01:11:58,013 --> 01:12:00,816 and specifically our use of section 230. 1471 01:12:00,883 --> 01:12:04,553 - I do think that we have responsibilities, 1472 01:12:04,653 --> 01:12:08,190 and it may make sense for there to be liability 1473 01:12:08,290 --> 01:12:10,559 for some of the content that is on the platform. 1474 01:12:10,659 --> 01:12:13,562 - I'm in media, if I get it wrong, I get sued. 1475 01:12:13,662 --> 01:12:16,365 Companies like Facebook or any of these internet companies 1476 01:12:16,465 --> 01:12:19,835 are not liable for anything. 1477 01:12:19,902 --> 01:12:21,737 Why do you think Facebook's so profitable? 1478 01:12:21,837 --> 01:12:23,539 Because they don't have to pay for cleaning things. 1479 01:12:23,639 --> 01:12:24,540 If you don't have to pay 1480 01:12:24,640 --> 01:12:26,408 for cleaning the river that you've polluted, 1481 01:12:26,508 --> 01:12:28,243 you could make a lot of money. 1482 01:12:28,344 --> 01:12:29,244 Over the last 20 years, 1483 01:12:29,345 --> 01:12:31,847 those companies have become the most wealthy, 1484 01:12:31,914 --> 01:12:35,517 omnipotent companies in the history of the universe. 1485 01:12:36,685 --> 01:12:38,220 You're a cheap date to these people. 1486 01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:41,924 They are the richest people in the history of Earth. 1487 01:12:42,024 --> 01:12:44,560 The top 10 richest people are all tech people, by the way. 1488 01:12:44,660 --> 01:12:46,362 - And yet we don't have the ability, 1489 01:12:46,428 --> 01:12:49,565 because of federal law, to hold them accountable, 1490 01:12:49,665 --> 01:12:51,700 if our life has been destroyed. 1491 01:13:01,176 --> 01:13:05,214 - We had a final assignment to create a wearable sculpture 1492 01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:09,051 that explains who we are. 1493 01:13:13,255 --> 01:13:15,724 I can see the physical toll, 1494 01:13:17,059 --> 01:13:18,560 my weight fluctuating, 1495 01:13:19,695 --> 01:13:22,264 probably like 105 pounds in that picture. 1496 01:13:24,566 --> 01:13:28,971 The next few months was me going to counseling, 1497 01:13:29,071 --> 01:13:31,073 me trying to figure out how to walk 1498 01:13:31,140 --> 01:13:33,308 on American University's campus, 1499 01:13:34,777 --> 01:13:37,246 while constantly being triggered 1500 01:13:37,312 --> 01:13:39,081 every single day that I'm there. 1501 01:13:42,885 --> 01:13:46,588 I was diagnosed with PTSD, depression, and anxiety. 1502 01:13:48,891 --> 01:13:52,494 - We need cyber civil rights, because we need civil rights. 1503 01:13:52,594 --> 01:13:55,464 We need to understand the way in which 1504 01:13:55,564 --> 01:13:59,134 what happens on the internet directly erodes 1505 01:13:59,234 --> 01:14:02,104 people's civil and human and sovereign rights. 1506 01:14:02,171 --> 01:14:06,775 (somber music) 1507 01:14:08,911 --> 01:14:10,479 - So, imagine you get a video 1508 01:14:10,579 --> 01:14:12,815 where someone has committed some transgression, 1509 01:14:12,915 --> 01:14:15,017 and then you see them being sort of pulled up for it, 1510 01:14:15,117 --> 01:14:17,119 or called out for it in some way, 1511 01:14:17,186 --> 01:14:19,855 and you get to feel pleased about that. 1512 01:14:19,955 --> 01:14:21,256 And then you see another video 1513 01:14:21,323 --> 01:14:22,324 kind of six months down the line 1514 01:14:22,424 --> 01:14:24,860 where that person has, you know, lost their job, 1515 01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:26,795 and they're incredibly depressed. 1516 01:14:28,530 --> 01:14:32,468 If you were to see that video of someone suffering 1517 01:14:32,534 --> 01:14:33,836 the terrible consequences 1518 01:14:33,936 --> 01:14:36,472 of what has befallen them six months earlier, 1519 01:14:36,538 --> 01:14:38,540 you might well think about the role 1520 01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,210 that you played in that whole experience. 1521 01:14:47,282 --> 01:14:49,384 - [Monica] There is actually a country in the world 1522 01:14:49,485 --> 01:14:52,821 that did reconsider their role in online harms. 1523 01:14:54,790 --> 01:14:57,326 But it took a tragedy to wake them up. 1524 01:14:59,495 --> 01:15:00,362 - [Woman] Big, old, tough Charlotte, 1525 01:15:00,462 --> 01:15:02,865 even big old opinionated, tough Charlotte, 1526 01:15:02,965 --> 01:15:04,900 can sometimes be punched down too. 1527 01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:09,137 You talking about depression is really admirable. 1528 01:15:09,204 --> 01:15:10,339 - [Man] It's weird, isn't it? 1529 01:15:10,405 --> 01:15:11,874 I would never have known that. 1530 01:15:11,974 --> 01:15:13,909 - [Man] In 2012, Charlotte was admitted 1531 01:15:14,009 --> 01:15:15,711 to hospital with depression 1532 01:15:15,811 --> 01:15:19,681 after she received a barrage of vicious comments on Twitter. 1533 01:15:19,748 --> 01:15:21,183 She posted a picture of herself 1534 01:15:21,250 --> 01:15:23,185 holding tablets with a comment, 1535 01:15:23,252 --> 01:15:25,053 hope this ends the misery. 1536 01:15:25,153 --> 01:15:28,090 - After a long and public struggle with depression, 1537 01:15:28,190 --> 01:15:30,726 television personality, Charlotte Dawson's life, 1538 01:15:30,826 --> 01:15:34,096 has ended tragically, with her body discovered this morning 1539 01:15:34,196 --> 01:15:36,398 at her Woolloomooloo home. 1540 01:15:44,373 --> 01:15:48,377 - A petition started in response to Charlotte's death. 1541 01:15:48,443 --> 01:15:49,578 Hundreds and thousands of people 1542 01:15:49,678 --> 01:15:51,413 said enough is enough. 1543 01:15:51,513 --> 01:15:52,781 This should not be happening. 1544 01:15:52,881 --> 01:15:54,283 Government needs to step in 1545 01:15:54,383 --> 01:15:58,086 and start regulating the internet. 1546 01:15:58,186 --> 01:15:59,421 - [Monica] Julie Inman Grant 1547 01:15:59,521 --> 01:16:02,057 is Australia's eSafety Commissioner. 1548 01:16:02,124 --> 01:16:04,626 - I'm essentially a regulator of social media, 1549 01:16:04,726 --> 01:16:07,930 and our goal is to keep all Australians safer 1550 01:16:08,030 --> 01:16:10,766 and to help them have more positive experiences online. 1551 01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:15,437 If a child in the US was being seriously cyber bullied, 1552 01:16:15,537 --> 01:16:18,740 and reported to Facebook or Instagram, 1553 01:16:18,807 --> 01:16:22,945 and it didn't come down, they wouldn't have any recourse. 1554 01:16:23,045 --> 01:16:25,147 So if a social media company 1555 01:16:25,247 --> 01:16:27,883 doesn't take down content 1556 01:16:27,950 --> 01:16:30,919 that we deem to be seriously harmful, 1557 01:16:30,986 --> 01:16:32,621 we can compel them to take them down 1558 01:16:32,721 --> 01:16:36,291 through a range of civil penalties, including fines. 1559 01:16:36,391 --> 01:16:37,960 - [Max] And Australia isn't the only country 1560 01:16:38,060 --> 01:16:40,963 that's passed legislation to curb online harms. 1561 01:16:41,063 --> 01:16:45,634 The UK, France, Germany and India have also passed acts 1562 01:16:45,734 --> 01:16:47,836 to protect their citizens on the internet, 1563 01:16:47,936 --> 01:16:50,806 giving us a bunch of examples of how we might reconcile 1564 01:16:50,906 --> 01:16:54,276 free speech with all those other civil rights. 1565 01:16:56,278 --> 01:16:59,681 But here in the US, we still have section 230. 1566 01:17:00,115 --> 01:17:02,684 (electric blower whirrs) 1567 01:17:02,784 --> 01:17:05,320 So if you want to hold someone accountable, legally, 1568 01:17:05,420 --> 01:17:08,123 you've got to think a little outside the box. 1569 01:17:09,925 --> 01:17:12,628 - By December of 2017, 1570 01:17:12,694 --> 01:17:16,131 they had exhausted all credible leads on the hate crime. 1571 01:17:16,198 --> 01:17:18,700 And so while I was an intern at the lawyers committee, 1572 01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,470 I remember going to my supervisor and being like, 1573 01:17:21,536 --> 01:17:23,205 can we sue neo-Nazis? 1574 01:17:23,305 --> 01:17:25,807 And she was like, yeah, you can do that. 1575 01:17:27,109 --> 01:17:28,543 Somebody needs to be held accountable 1576 01:17:28,644 --> 01:17:30,178 for what happened to me. 1577 01:17:30,278 --> 01:17:32,147 We figured out who we needed to sue. 1578 01:17:33,615 --> 01:17:35,684 And then I was in an intake meeting that afternoon. 1579 01:17:38,153 --> 01:17:40,856 Andrew Anglin was a foregone conclusion, 1580 01:17:40,956 --> 01:17:43,025 but because we had compiled screenshots 1581 01:17:43,125 --> 01:17:44,059 from some of the messages, 1582 01:17:44,159 --> 01:17:46,495 we were able to identify people 1583 01:17:46,561 --> 01:17:48,397 based on their Twitter handles. 1584 01:17:48,497 --> 01:17:51,133 We were able to make a kind of creative argument 1585 01:17:51,199 --> 01:17:54,036 that the online harassment impacted my ability 1586 01:17:54,136 --> 01:17:56,571 to go to school and to utilize my campus 1587 01:17:56,672 --> 01:17:58,040 to the fullest capacity. 1588 01:17:59,474 --> 01:18:01,677 My attorneys, they didn't promise me anything. 1589 01:18:01,743 --> 01:18:03,078 And they were like, you know, 1590 01:18:03,178 --> 01:18:04,346 this is going to be really, really difficult. 1591 01:18:04,413 --> 01:18:05,414 - [Interviewer] What would you say 1592 01:18:05,514 --> 01:18:06,848 to the Andrew Anglins of the world? 1593 01:18:06,915 --> 01:18:08,417 - You picked the wrong one. 1594 01:18:08,517 --> 01:18:11,319 And you picked somebody that wasn't gonna back down. 1595 01:18:11,386 --> 01:18:13,221 - [Interviewer] Dumpson won her case. 1596 01:18:15,190 --> 01:18:18,593 (compelling piano music) 1597 01:18:26,334 --> 01:18:29,738 - We sued three people and one corporation, 1598 01:18:29,838 --> 01:18:32,908 but two people and the corporation did not respond, 1599 01:18:33,008 --> 01:18:35,210 but one of the individuals did respond. 1600 01:18:36,678 --> 01:18:39,214 That person happens to be around my age. 1601 01:18:40,682 --> 01:18:42,284 One of the things that we discussed 1602 01:18:42,384 --> 01:18:43,585 with my attorneys in the beginning 1603 01:18:43,685 --> 01:18:46,455 was what did I want out of litigation? 1604 01:18:47,923 --> 01:18:51,426 I remember doing a class, it was about punishment. 1605 01:18:51,526 --> 01:18:52,794 One of the things that we studied 1606 01:18:52,894 --> 01:18:54,596 was different forms of punishment, 1607 01:18:54,696 --> 01:18:56,131 and who do you punish for? 1608 01:18:56,231 --> 01:18:58,233 Is the purpose rehabilitation? 1609 01:18:58,300 --> 01:19:00,969 Is it retribution? 1610 01:19:01,069 --> 01:19:03,472 I had been exposed to what restorative justice 1611 01:19:03,572 --> 01:19:05,240 looked like and what it could be. 1612 01:19:06,708 --> 01:19:09,444 So I was really interested in trying to incorporate 1613 01:19:09,544 --> 01:19:12,481 those kinds of principles into a settlement. 1614 01:19:12,581 --> 01:19:15,383 He was required to do 200 hours of community service 1615 01:19:15,450 --> 01:19:17,919 with a racial justice organization. 1616 01:19:17,986 --> 01:19:20,756 He was required to renounce white supremacy, 1617 01:19:22,924 --> 01:19:25,460 and we scheduled an apology. 1618 01:19:26,728 --> 01:19:29,631 I gave sort of like a victim impact statement, 1619 01:19:29,731 --> 01:19:33,168 and I was looking him in his eye the entire time. 1620 01:19:35,303 --> 01:19:37,105 After I spoke, then he spoke. 1621 01:19:38,840 --> 01:19:43,612 After that, I felt like I was able to take my next steps, 1622 01:19:43,678 --> 01:19:46,648 which were to close that chapter of the book. 1623 01:19:50,352 --> 01:19:53,655 - Calling in is a call-out done with love, 1624 01:19:53,755 --> 01:19:57,692 'cause we share a desire to hold people accountable, 1625 01:19:57,793 --> 01:19:59,795 not only for the harm they do, 1626 01:19:59,861 --> 01:20:02,864 but help them learn how not to do more harm in the future. 1627 01:20:06,535 --> 01:20:09,171 People change from the inside 1628 01:20:09,271 --> 01:20:12,207 because they want to call on themselves to be better people. 1629 01:20:17,112 --> 01:20:20,882 I am not so much a turn the other cheek girl 1630 01:20:20,982 --> 01:20:23,685 that I just think that restorative 1631 01:20:23,785 --> 01:20:26,855 or transformative or calling in is available, 1632 01:20:26,955 --> 01:20:29,391 or will work with everybody. 1633 01:20:29,491 --> 01:20:32,861 I just think we overused calling out 1634 01:20:32,961 --> 01:20:36,064 in situations where it being less punitive 1635 01:20:36,164 --> 01:20:40,035 could actually become a more effective strategy. 1636 01:20:40,135 --> 01:20:42,204 And even if the person is wrong, 1637 01:20:42,304 --> 01:20:45,173 you can offer them the grace of being wrong about it. 1638 01:20:47,742 --> 01:20:49,077 - After everything went down, 1639 01:20:50,045 --> 01:20:52,047 I hadn't had any sort of release. 1640 01:20:53,648 --> 01:20:54,549 And I got an email, 1641 01:20:59,921 --> 01:21:03,358 I got an email and he's like, hey dude, 1642 01:21:03,425 --> 01:21:05,427 I just wanted to let you know that 1643 01:21:08,830 --> 01:21:11,032 I don't feel like you did anything wrong. 1644 01:21:11,099 --> 01:21:13,268 You were just trying to provide for your family, 1645 01:21:13,368 --> 01:21:15,937 and you got caught up in the midst of the situation. 1646 01:21:21,176 --> 01:21:22,444 I lost it. 1647 01:21:26,514 --> 01:21:30,552 I was sobbing so hard that I was shaking the entire bed. 1648 01:21:30,619 --> 01:21:33,922 I woke my wife up and she asked me, she's like, 1649 01:21:34,022 --> 01:21:35,290 what's wrong, what's wrong? 1650 01:21:38,059 --> 01:21:41,263 And all I could get out was, someone was nice to me. 1651 01:21:43,865 --> 01:21:46,568 (ethereal music) 1652 01:22:14,896 --> 01:22:16,798 - These are not chess pieces 1653 01:22:16,898 --> 01:22:19,968 to be moved on a board to your pleasure. 1654 01:22:20,068 --> 01:22:22,003 These are human beings. 1655 01:22:22,103 --> 01:22:24,839 And if you fail to see their humanity, 1656 01:22:24,940 --> 01:22:28,410 then you will always thwart your own goals 1657 01:22:28,476 --> 01:22:30,779 in changing hearts and minds. 1658 01:22:31,279 --> 01:22:37,285 (dramatic music) 1659 01:23:15,991 --> 01:23:19,194 Anger is such powerful fuel. 1660 01:23:19,294 --> 01:23:20,895 And so when you're bereft of that, 1661 01:23:20,996 --> 01:23:23,198 you have to land somewhere else 1662 01:23:23,298 --> 01:23:27,202 and really embrace what I call a concept of radical love, 1663 01:23:27,302 --> 01:23:29,337 starting with love for self 1664 01:23:29,404 --> 01:23:30,705 and calling on myself 1665 01:23:30,805 --> 01:23:32,907 to be the best human being I can be. 1666 01:23:49,524 --> 01:23:51,559 - [Monica] Imagine waking up one morning 1667 01:23:51,659 --> 01:23:54,562 with the whole world suddenly knowing your name. 1668 01:23:57,032 --> 01:24:00,035 What kind of world do you want that to be? 1669 01:24:14,215 --> 01:24:17,185 (acoustic guitar music)