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One bathrobe, blue.
One Toshiba laptop...
model SA60 dash 117.
One sauce pan, stainless steel.
One medical briefcase, brown leather.
Three wine glasses.
Five highball glasses.
One opened bottle of poppers, Hardware.
One unopened bottle of poppers, Rush.
One used condom.
Eleven unused condoms.
Two unused condoms, Extra Large.
One dildo, penis.
One dildo, fist.
Six compact discs.
Kristine W - Feel What You Want.
George Michael - Ladies and Gentlemen.
Aimee Mann - Magnolia.
Knuffelrock - Part 7.
Prodigy - Firestarter.
And Nina Simone - Emergency Ward.
One half bag of Japanese nuts.
One gas mask, black.
One half bag of mixed nuts.
One empty bag of Sweet Pepper crisps.
One tube of lube, KY.
One can of shortening, Crisco.
One hypodermic needle, used.
Four hypodermic needles, unused.
A pink polo shirt.
One pair of sweat pants with Feyenoord logo.
Two letters.
One handwritten letter.
'Peter, I don't think you know how to love someone.
But it was there.
You were in me. That means something.
Remember I will always be there. You can't erase me.
Hans.'
One printed letter.
'To my master Peter.
I, Hans Jonkers, get a kick from being the poz whore to my master.
I now have the most wild, hot and dirty sex, unlike before I was infected.
I get a kick from rough bare fucking, needles, poz blood, and piss.
I have knowingly infected my master and others as well.
Like Guido, Paul, Wilfred, Michel, Tom...
Guido and maybe Max.
Most of the guest were drugged by me, using GHB...
and I then injected them with my own poz blood.
The bastards got what they asked for. Yeah.
31-12-2006.
Two DVDs.
Fireplace. Boys Juice.
Three bottles of GHB, two hundred and fifty millilitres each.
One empty rosé wine bottle, Kaapse Pracht.
Three empty beer cans, Schultenbrau.
Three empty Cola cans.
One string of anal beads, small.
One string of anal beads, large.
One gramme of cannabis.
And one pack of large cigarette paper.
2.3 kilogrammes of XTC pills.
Pink.
One pair of grey boxer shorts.
One red bath towel.
One enema.
I can't find it.
Why are you fiddling on your phone?
I'm trying to find something and that takes time.
What are you trying to find? Maybe we know what it is.
You do.
- What? - What we talked about yesterday.
- This isn't it. - What? What are you searching?
- About 'coming home'. Remember? - It wasn't about that. It was about love.
- Well... coming home. - You two spoke of love?
Yeah, just briefly.
That... eh...
That love is not being afraid to die.
That you're not afraid... not even afraid of death.
- You call that 'coming home'? - For lack of a better word.
It's when it feels good. That things are as they should be.
- 'Coming home'. Talk about boring... - Thanks.
Well, it is.
I mean, like somewhere you've never been before.
Yet, you know: this is my home. He is my home. I know it.
But does he know it too?
I don't know. Perhaps that doesn't matter.
And then? Once you know this?
I am an instrument being played.
- What instrument are you then? - Not a recorder, I guess.
I am a double bass.
I lean against his chest.
With his left hand he touches my nipples. With his right hand he plays my sex.
And that's how you come home?
Together, we make music. The result of our love is pure music.
Love.
And what if he suddenly drops you?
He wouldn't.
He would never do that.
- How do you know? - That's that trust.
That's the 'coming home'. He would never betray me.
Isn't that nice.
Ah, yes. Here it is. I found it.
'This is why a fertile being, when it encounters beauty, feels happy and elated.
It will blossom and fertilise and reproduce.'
'But when it is confronted with ugliness...
it feels gloomy and sad.
It turns away, it contracts, it doesn't want to anymore.'
Plato.
'This is why all fertile beings that are swollen with juice...
become so very excited with beauty...
as this beauty relieves all pain.'
Which is not like hunger or thirst. Then you know what you're missing.
In this case, you won't know until you meet 'him'. Ah, it was him I was looking for.
While the starved come crawling to our house in droves, looking for...
sex.
For oblivion.
Wanting out, no longer wanting to be.
Wanting to be dead, without being dead.
How do you mean?
No more compromise. No more 'I am really just the neighbour'...
or 'I am just an econometrics student' or 'adjunct-clerk of the court'.
- Is there such a job? - There won't be then.
No more construction worker either.
Only his strong arms and thighs...
his chest with hardened nipples.
His waiting for the gaze he catches without having to look for it himself.
- This is how the worker comes home? - This is how the worker 'comes'.
That's how I came home. To you.
I wasn't even an 'I' anymore.
I was nothing but tongue.
Just licking.
There was only anus...
scrotum, a penis breast-feeding.
- Meets the definition of a masochist. - It sounds like a sect.
It sounds like love.
Love?
Love lives at the point of the tongue that licks me.
At the tips of the fingers that touch me.
You say that then you no longer exist?
That to you, love means that you then no longer exist?
That you no longer need to be 'I'?
No longer an'I'.
Then I only 'am'. Without knowing who, or why.
Or where.
I whirl blamelessly through an omnipotent universe that exists only for me.
But for you, this is...
I only exist, I only 'am'...
I only become an 'I' through the gaze of the other.
Without an audience every actor is, I am...
nothing but a pathetic, insignificant, scared little man.
Only with an audience I truly come to life.
It is only through that audience that 'I' exist.
Then this 'I' changes into what the audience wants me to be.
And that is...?
It can be anything. That's not for me to decide.
I may be an emperor, or a devil.
A diva.
A construction worker, an econometrics student.
Or an adjunct-clerk to the court.
Even if such a person doesn't exist...
I still become them. Precisely because the audience wants it.
So I give them that. That is the power of love.
And thus you become the universe I am whirling through?
Where I come home?
Yes. But it is you who decide...
who or what I become. You decide who you come home to.
'Those trained in love to this degree...
and who have seen, in the right order, all this beauty...
will, when the initiation into the mysteries of love is nigh...
then suddenly see a vision rise. A wondrous beauty.
And it is this beauty that all his previous efforts were aimed at.'
- Is that what you mean? - I guess.
I embody that vision. I embody that wondrous beauty.
I embody anything you want.
Sounds megalomaniacal.
Meets all the criteria of a narcissistic disorder.
Love?
No?
Perhaps.
If that's what it is to you.
It's different for everyone, right?
In my case, love is...
that I get your olives.
- And your shit, and your... - Olives? I never eat olives.
That's why I get them.
I cherish the leftovers from your desires. I am the mediator.
- The bookkeeper. - And that's love?
I am the air that vibrates so the music is heard and the words are understood.
I am the nerve that enables the skin to feel a caress.
I am the bed you make love on.
I am the genitals you make love with.
I sacrifice myself for your happiness.
And that's what makes me happy.
And that is love.
Are you happy?
Why not?
Is Wim saying that he is impotent?
A freeloader, a voyeur...
an opportunist, a pimp.
A loser, who will never admit it.
- It sounds ridiculous. - Desperate.
- It sounds like love. - Love?
You call that love?
'Sounds' like love, I said.
'That he, together with others or another, or alone...
has caused, deliberately and intentionally...
grievous bodily harm, being HIV infection.'
'By together with one or more accomplices...
injecting another person, knowingly and after deliberation...
with HIV-infected blood in the anus or buttock and or in the anal cavity...
and or near the anus; said HIV-infected blood...
being a substance hazardous to life or health.'
If you have known love, you'll want to share it.
You have to share it.
'At first, if his guide points him in the right direction...
he will be in love with just one body and bring forth exquisite words in it.
Then he will realise that the beauty of one arbitrary body...
is related to that of another.
And that it would be very foolish, when chasing external beauty...
not to regard the beauty of all bodies as one and the same.'
That would be very foolish.
Indeed.
Bring everyone unto us. This is my house. This is our house.
And come they did.
Of course they came. Who wouldn't, to such a house?
- But they didn't know what they did there? - They knew very well what they were after.
This is about sexual acts...
performed with someone he knew to be unconscious or less conscious...
or physically incapacitated.
'Conditions between alertness and complete oblivion...
in which this person cannot within reason be expected to resist sexual advances.'
I don't deny that.
Plaintiff M had voluntarily taken XTC.
He felt very guilty that because of his condition...
he couldn't remember whether or not he had 'cooperated'.
During the investigation, he gave different versions...
of the positions they took during double penetration.
Yes, and XTC and alcohol were consumed at these parties. And GHB.
Voluntarily or not, making some plaintiffs 'lose' entire episodes of that night.
Others remember whole pieces.
- That's not what it's about. - About what then?
What is it about then?
'But for all other beauties, including love, the following holds true:
they come and they go.'
Plato.
Love may deny death, but even love doesn't cancel death.
Only one thing can do so.
True beauty.
- So you mean... - Being horny, desperate.
By that I mean death.
So you admit it?
I admit that love is an attempt to deny death.
An attempt to cancel death.
And I admit that that is a fallacy.
So love only leads to death?
So love can only be criminal.
Love is...
Love is lethal.
But never criminal.
True love is simply without measure.
Well...
We were on the bed in my bedroom. He was on top of me.
He was fucking me.
And at some point I wanted him to stop, but he didn't.
And...
He kept at it and held me down, on the bed. He was choking me.
'I will kill you if you don't obey.'
And that... well...
It really upset me and it...
Yes, well...
It still upsets me.
You just said that what you liked about Peter was his roughness.
Yes, but up to a certain point.
And when one reaches one's limit, the other should stop.
No matter how exciting and rough sex may be, there are limits.
Like, I mean, you can't just beat somebody up.
So, in spite of...
how it should be...
in such a dominant-submissive relationship...
the submissive one always sets the limit.
And it is he who controls the game, as it were.
If you could choose between being victim or perpetrator...
which would you choose?
You can't... It's two answers, really, that I'd like to give.
The first answer would be 'victim', because then I would be innocent.
On the other hand, I would say 'perpetrator'.
Because then I would have had control over what I did.
So you see, it's not either/or.
There are pros and cons to both roles.
- When did you first meet Peter? - On 18 September 2004.
- Where was this? - On a dating site.
That sounds respectable, but it was a site for sex dates.
- Then he and Wim came to my place. - Wim was a friend of his?
That's what he said, but Wim, for a long time, had been his...
I don't exactly know what. Something.
More than just a friend. They have been living together for ages.
But they pretended they were just 'friends'.
And what happened on this date?
We met at my place to have sex.
So we did. It was very good.
So, we exchanged phone numbers.
We felt like meeting up again. That was the first date.
And the next date, was that soon after?
Yes, within a few days, I think. A week. I don't remember exactly.
- Always the three of you? With Wim? - No.
I made it clear I liked him better than Wim.
Wim just wasn't my type, as a sex partner.
When did you get the idea to invite others? How did that happen?
Well, that was mainly Peter's idea.
I thought just the two of us was okay, but that wasn't enough for him.
He'd check the chat box to see if anyone was around. That sort of thing.
How did that make you feel, not being enough?
Well, ehm...
It didn't really depress me or anything.
But I didn't feel the need to always have others join us.
How did you prepare, when there were others?
We'd dim the lights and put a large mattress in the living room.
Some drinks, and everyone knows why they are there, so...
- Why were they there? - For sex.
A great 'advantage' of a chat box...
is that people can say what they like or not, so you can choose who to meet or not.
And was it made clear that there would be unsafe sex?
That... Yes.
About those parties. What were they like? How many people came?
- Were there friends you already knew? - No. Peter knew some of them.
They would join us sometimes.
You know.
There might be three of us, or five.
Or two, and three came in, left again, and four would come in. Like that.
- Is that why it went on for so long? - Yes.
Usually from about 9 PM to 4 AM, or whatever.
So some would be there at 9 PM and leave sooner?
Yes, as soon as they were 'finished'.
And some would stay all night.
And was it like an orgy all the time or...?
No, I mean, it's physically impossible to have sex for six hours...
so there were breaks and, you know.
You know, at some point we were with so many...
that we didn't even know anymore what part belonged to whom.
And that was also like 'hot'? Like...
Yes, but also confusing. If you no longer know what belongs to whom...
or what their names are.
It sounds vulgar, and I guess it was.
Vulgar... I don't know.
And when was the first time something occurred...
that you later felt was not okay at all?
The first time it concerned myself.
When he secretly spiked my drink with GHB.
Can you remember when you yourself had the feeling...
you did something that was not okay?
One thing I never felt good about...
is that when I knew I had HIV, I didn't tell others.
- Would people say that in a chat box? - No, only that the sex was unsafe.
But it's also, like...
I mean, I did feel...
that the text in the ads were such that anyone could know...
or at least suspect...
that with unsafe sex, and drugs, and other people...
that there was an obvious risk of HIV.
It wasn't always with the same people.
And, ehm...
You also think...
that people who want to do everything safe and are very afraid of HIV...
would not respond to that kind of ad.
They would respond to 'hugging-by-candlelight' ads.
And if these things are mentioned so explicitly...
then you are aware of where you're going.
So, the naivety as portrayed by some of those who pressed charges...
did irritate me sometimes. Then I think 'Come on...
you know what you responded to, what will happen, it's all in the ad...
and you're still surprised?' I've always found that a little odd.
It's a bit contradictory, as you first said that was what you felt guilty about.
I'd rather have told people.
But I didn't.
You've been convicted...
of assault. What type of assault?
It was...
Phew, that's a hard question.
I mean, in the sense that it's hard to say it out loud.
It was injecting people with HIV-infected blood.
- Do you remember having done that? - Yes. Unfortunately.
How did you do this?
Peter would take blood from my arm.
Peter would stick the syringe into someone's buttock and I would empty it.
Were they conscious when this took place?
No, Peter always made sure they were heavily drugged.
So was I.
So you were intoxicated yourself...
but you do remember how you felt at the time.
What did you feel?
The same I still feel today.
It's unimaginable I ever did this.
Terribly...
low and mean.
Painful, not only for the victims, but for myself as well.
I've damaged myself enormously.
- Hello. - Hi. Peter.
I'm Tim.
- Did you find us easily? - Yes, no problem.
- I'll take your coat. - Thanks.
Wow.
Quite a view you have from here.
There's the village. Did you see the swimming pool?
- Yes, I saw it. And those plants? - Potatoes.
- Coffee? - Yes, please.
Have you lived here long?
I lived here with Wim a couple of years, before this whole thing.
We've always been quite content here.
Wim couldn't be here today?
He had to go to work.
Where did Wim put the coffee?
I'm still finding my way around here.
Wim is a bit chaotic.
- You like it strong? - Yes, please.
- You like to cook? Being in the kitchen? - I do the cooking. Wim seldom does.
What is your signature dish? What are you good at?
All pastas, basically.
Pasta, pasta.
- I'll whip it up for you. - That's very kind of you.
- You know this system? - I think I've seen it before, yes.
- Shall we go to the living? - Can I help?
No, I've got it.
What is the first thing you did upon your release?
I was very glad, of course.
Wim cooked dinner for me, that first night.
The second day I didn't want to go out. I was afraid of other people.
But yesterday I went over to the neighbour and it was okay to see her again.
- Is she a friend of yours? - No, just a good neighbour.
And she supported Wim, which I think is nice of her.
Unlike other neighbours, who didn't respond well, but this one was there.
They didn't respond well?
Because of what happened. I think they are afraid of us.
I can't solve that.
- Why not? - Because it's nobody's business.
That's the thing. All these other people didn't understand it at all.
- All these people... - Out there.
Like those 14 people who pressed charges?
Yes, that's what we really should be talking about.
They assumed the role of victims.
And I don't think...
that I did them as much harm as what I'm blamed for.
What can you accept of the accusations made against you?
Maybe it wasn't the right thing to do...
and certain things I shouldn't have done.
But I didn't need to be locked up.
Can you give an example of what you shouldn't have done?
Yes, well...
I've given people drugs, but they wanted to take drugs.
Then you know something will change.
Things have happened. They call it rape, but I don't.
Not when they surrender themselves to me. Does that make me a rapist?
I didn't drag anyone from the street into my car and raped them.
They came to my house, they wanted to join the party.
In retrospect I find it quite beautiful, not a criminal thing at all.
What happened there was full of love, I think.
That's why I wanted to do this interview.
Love and sex. Do they go together well or do you see them as separate entities?
Well, I...
Yes, I see them as separate things. You shouldn't confuse the two.
Those parties were not about love.
They were about sex, which is a beautiful thing...
but it's different from love. So...
If you confuse the two, it's not fun anymore, I think.
At these parties you were having unsafe sex.
Whether voluntary or not, we'll leave that out for now.
What does it mean for you to be HIV-positive?
Well, I...
Yes, well...
In a way, it felt like a nice certification.
I mean, it is a form of belonging with others who are the same.
I think there is a certain beauty in that.
I, ehm...
I enjoyed throwing those parties for people who all had HIV.
And even if not all of them were HIV-positive...
I always felt it would be great if everyone was.
Because then everything was possible.
What I gathered from the court reports...
was that you and Hans also often said that safe sex was practiced.
Yes. If you are both HIV-positive, then it's safe, right?
But from what I read, you also claimed not to have HIV and that therefore...
- there was no risk of infection. - That's another bogus story.
- Unproven at that. - Why would people say that?
Some people see themselves as victims and present arguments...
to make us the perpetrators, but I haven't done anything.
- You see? - Hm, I don't know.
It was their own choice.
Blood was part of your sexual activities. What was that about?
Blood is a very vital thing.
Making contact through blood is a form of fusion.
A sort of coming together. A symbiotic desire.
And we felt good about that.
Not as a dangerous thing, just smearing each other's blood on your skin.
And if people objected, it didn't happen? It was never against their will?
No.
- And this is...? - Dana.
- Have you had her for a long time? - She came here while I was in prison.
Wim felt a bit lonely. We used to have two Labradors.
I loved them. This dog doesn't mean that much to me.
So, the parties you organised...
did they take place in this house?
No, mostly at Hans' place.
In Colijn Street. Upstairs.
Can you tell me more? I mean, how did...
I don't think you should mention the street name. It's just a detail, but...
So, we'll just do this bit again from the start.
So, the parties you organised, did they take place in this house?
No, at Hans' place. Upstairs.
What were these parties like?
Were they on weekends or on weekdays?
It varied. We would plan evenings and receive people.
Many people at the same time? Or also with just three or four people?
Well, the more the better.
Ideally, there would be 10, 12 or 15 people.
- Sorry, cut. It's a small flat, so... - That's impossible?
- Eight would be the maximum. - Okay, let's do it again.
Ehm... We'll just do it again, right?
So, these sex parties, were they held here, in this house?
No, at Hans' place. Upstairs.
What were these parties like?
There would be 4, 5, 6, 7 or 8 people. Tops.
People would come in, we served drinks, used some substances.
There was music, one thing led to another...
and people would start something. Others would join in or not.
It was quite spontaneous.
I kept an eye on things, to make sure everyone was at ease.
At some point I would join in myself.
It just developed very nicely.
I studied plant biology. And I was always interested in plant diseases.
I was fascinated that plants can also get sick like people do.
And viruses was the most interesting of all.
Because when a plant is infected with a virus you can't save it anymore.
As a student, I found it really amazing, it's a thing that you don't see.
It's so tiny. You need a very special microscope in order to see a virus.
And it needs the plant, to grow.
The virus gets into its genome...
and then it starts reproducing together with the plants cells.
It has to be inside the plant in order to live.
Of course, they cause these heavy symptoms and the plant may die in the end.
But what you can do is inject lighter version of the virus...
which doesn't cause as much, so heavy symptoms.
The plant accepts it, the symptoms aren't as heavy and it can grow...
quite naturally. Like it would be.
When the real heavy virus comes, the plant is already immune.
It's actually the same like you do with humans.
But actually the purpose of this virus is not to kill the host.
Because if you kill the host, you cannot live further yourself.
But by doing that, then it can find the one plant that will survive
and it will carry on the virus without giving any symptoms from the plant.
They actually live together.
- So a virus would be an organism? - Yes, then it becomes part of this...
collaboration, this system of the plant and the pathogen working together.
But at the beginning of this process it looks quite severe.
It looks like the virus is the bad guy.
But I don't believe in good guys and bad guys.
I like to think all works, in order to come down to...
living together. And being-together.
Does the plant also need the virus?
Yes, it's funny. The virus and the tulips
it changes the colour of the flower.
And that can be very attractive for insects for example.
Or it can get a different kind of light to the flower
that can help the flower to grow.
So it does have a benefit. It just looks different from what we're used to seeing.
Like when you see a tulip, you always expect it to be yellow.
So when the virus comes in and it turns the tulip red
it's for us, not good.
It's not for the tulip itself.
Like when you're a grower of yellow tulips, you want to have all of them yellow.
Because if you have some red ones inbetween them the flower show will not buy your bud.
So then the virus is the bad guy in that case.
For this experiment I need an infected flower...
and a mortar and pestle to grind the petal.
I will use this buffer which keeps the virus alive.
I'll cut the petal with a razor.
And then after the grinding I will use the syringe to inject...
this inoculum in the bulb of the healthy flower.
And now I just press
the petal so the cells are open.
And the virus is released in the liquid.
Would flowers be trying to infect their neighbour flowers?
No, it will happen because they are close to each other.
But then the plant, when it's infected, it will communicate that to the others
to let them know there is infection close-by.
The plants around it will start inducing their immune systems.
So that they can be prepared for the disease coming.
So there is a different kind of communication.
How does it work, that communication?
Either volatile molecules. They produce in the air when the plant is infected.
And it can also be through the roots.
And the others pick it up, it's all a chemical reaction.
So you were fascinated by viruses, but do you remember the first time you got sick?
I always remember, also about when I was 10 or 12 years old.
Around that age when the flu is quite heavy.
And you need to stay in bed, and you sweat a lot
and it's kind of good and bad thing at the same time.
You don't want to be there but all this high temperature and the sweat
and being under the blankets it brings a certain kind of comfort.
I guess also you feel your body being alive.
It's the moments you actually feel
that there is more than your skin covering your bones.
There is things inside you living and reacting.
It's a sense of being alive, I don't know, being sick.
Do you remember any other experiences with viruses?
I don't remember.
We talked about getting infected
like as a human getting infected by someone.
And what I find fascinating in that idea
is that I find it a way of bonding.
It's like when you were kids and you would... I don't know if you did that
Like you would be, how do you call it?
A blood friend with someone? When you cut your fingers and mix your blood...
To become like brothers or sisters.
It's the same thing when you get infected by someone, and you feel this virus
is moving all over your body and then it comes from that person.
It's a kind of very special gift.
I'm not saying it's a thing to do, but...
Yeah, it's a way to connect, maybe.
It's just the idea of the virus moving through, in your blood.
It is, I dunno, I just find it very...
poetic idea, maybe.
I always picture it, also,
When I think about it I can see this little organism
just moving all over the...
your body.
Then you have someone always with you.
And now I will inject it
in the bulb.
It doesn't work well.
Thanks.
- Erik-Jan. - Max.
- Verbeek. - Max.
You wish to report an assault?
- If you wish to call it that. Yes. - How else?
I'd rather leave that up to you.
- You contacted the three suspects yourself? - Via the Internet.
You had sex with them before. At least with one of them.
With two of them.
- You knew these were sex parties. - That was the whole point, right?
- You had been drinking, right? - To muster up your courage?
- Because of the excitement. - And you took cocaine.
No, I didn't.
You wanted to push the envelope?
You knew there would be unsafe sex.
- Unsafe sex? - Because no-one would be HIV-positive?
- Or so they said. - Which you believed.
- You knew this. - I believed them, yes.
So, naive.
- You smoked a joint, right? - Two joints. Three?
You wanted uninhibited sex, didn't you?
Push the envelope, right?
'I'll fuck your brains out!' -'Harder'.
- 'Harder'. - And then you suddenly felt sick.
You felt unwell?
You had a bit of a spell?
- While you knew... - And were conscious of...
- being doubly penetrated? - Two dicks up your ass.
Yes, I knew. But not what happened after that.
After that, you didn't know anymore.
After that, you allegedly didn't know anymore.
He didn't know anymore.
- The bastards had suddenly spiked his wine. - Oh dear.
- Maybe they put GHB in his wine. - Or was it beer?
Or was it vodka?
- Wasn't it like a children's party? - Playing doctors and nurses gone wrong?
- But with real syringes. - And now they are monsters?
That's not what I said.
I'm saying they took advantage of the situation.
- Maybe you created this situation yourself. - Partly created it yourself.
Didn't you find it all very 'arousing'?
It was very stupid of me, I know.
- You had a girlfriend. - Yes, I had.
- You had a young son. - I have a young son.
- And you never thought of... - Of course I have.
- All the same, you... - And was punished for it.
Then suddenly, you woke up in the park.
- On a bench. - Without your shoes?
And you had lost everything.
Your girlfriend...
- your son... - Your health.
- Your job. - I still have my son. Sometimes.
And you've been...
I've been punished for it.
For what?
- For what? - What were you punished for?
I've lost everything.
That's not what I asked.
No.
Why did you go there?
Several times.
Why?
Perhaps you wanted...
Perhaps you expected...
like so many people do, that beyond the horizon...
like so many people know or think they know...
that beyond the horizon...
or at least somewhere...
That it can't be...
That you can't live with the idea, if there isn't somewhere...
That that would be unbearable?
That it all comes together, somewhere?
And not only after death, because then there's nothing.
That it would be an outrage if our lives were just shadow lives?
If our life here would be nothing but a shadow of the real life over there?
That we could not live here?
How do you mean?
I mean that most people assume...
that the knowledge we often do possess, does not guide us.
They think something else guides us.
Sometimes pleasure...
sometimes an urge...
sometimes pain...
and sometimes love.
Often it is fear.
They see knowledge as a slave...
being dragged this way and that by all other influences.
Is that also how you see knowledge?
Or do you see it as a beautiful thing?
Something that could lead us humans?
Do you believe that if someone knows both right and wrong...
he would let nothing persuade him to do a thing not prescribed by that knowledge?
No. I wouldn't be here if I did.
Then why are you here?
I expected...
I hoped...
perhaps...