1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:42,810 --> 00:00:45,240 - On September 10th, life was perfect. 4 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,280 We had two kids, Bobby and Jeff working up in New York, 5 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:49,550 living up in New York. 6 00:00:49,550 --> 00:00:51,573 We were on a pedestal on the 10th. 7 00:00:52,912 --> 00:00:54,350 - I was having a lot of fun. 8 00:00:54,350 --> 00:00:56,360 I guess the only sort of downside 9 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,713 was that I didn't get to see my mom too much. 10 00:00:59,933 --> 00:01:01,040 I was just being a kid. 11 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:02,760 You want to be out doing stuff 12 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,550 and like I said, she was commuting to the city every day. 13 00:01:05,550 --> 00:01:08,070 - I was not in a good place in my life 14 00:01:08,070 --> 00:01:09,350 On the 10th of September. 15 00:01:09,350 --> 00:01:13,220 I had spent some time with Frank and that was the good part. 16 00:01:13,220 --> 00:01:14,900 - On the 10th I'm on the beach 17 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:17,500 obviously with my mom and my wife and two kids. 18 00:01:17,500 --> 00:01:20,480 They were probably six months, 18 months at the time, 19 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:21,880 so you're doing stuff like you do, 20 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,920 playing in the sand, building sandcastles 21 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:27,163 and just enjoying that time. 22 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,250 And, you know, that's how we kind of 23 00:01:29,250 --> 00:01:32,183 imagined the rest of the holiday would pan out. 24 00:01:44,445 --> 00:01:46,695 - You can't forget. 25 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:21,120 - Well prior to 9/11, I was involved in activism, 26 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,220 United Nations Group, and the idea was 27 00:02:24,220 --> 00:02:27,160 that we would work kind of like the United States 28 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:28,960 on a international level. 29 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:30,650 So when 9/11 happened 30 00:02:30,650 --> 00:02:33,720 and the subsequent change in atmosphere, 31 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,260 it was really hard to talk about anything 32 00:02:36,260 --> 00:02:37,930 that made sense publicly, 33 00:02:37,930 --> 00:02:40,090 because it was kind of a unilateral 34 00:02:40,090 --> 00:02:42,710 United States world that we were going 35 00:02:42,710 --> 00:02:43,896 to do whatever we wanted 36 00:02:43,896 --> 00:02:45,510 and it was going to be violent 37 00:02:45,510 --> 00:02:47,843 and it was going to be warlike. 38 00:03:00,110 --> 00:03:02,650 My name is Robert Griffin, I'm a psychologist 39 00:03:02,650 --> 00:03:04,520 and I went to school at Penn State 40 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,193 and Marywood University in Pennsylvania. 41 00:03:08,990 --> 00:03:10,750 Like most I get up and get coffee 42 00:03:10,750 --> 00:03:12,200 and it's time to get to work. 43 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:17,770 Some people go through the trauma 44 00:03:17,770 --> 00:03:20,740 of the loss and the violent death 45 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,940 and then also go through the trauma 46 00:03:25,940 --> 00:03:30,940 of finding out that things aren't as they seemed 47 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:36,470 or that there's problems that hurt in other ways. 48 00:03:36,470 --> 00:03:41,313 So their trauma initially is disorienting. 49 00:03:43,060 --> 00:03:45,230 How do we fit in the world anymore? 50 00:03:45,230 --> 00:03:47,093 Am I a father? Am I a son? 51 00:03:49,750 --> 00:03:51,480 - I just got a text from Jeff. 52 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,100 We have to be there at 10 to seven tomorrow. 53 00:03:53,100 --> 00:03:55,430 Can you get the sugar, hun? - Yeah. 54 00:03:55,430 --> 00:03:57,890 - Did I put in enough water? Yeah, I'm good. 55 00:03:57,890 --> 00:04:00,450 I left some in there from earlier. 56 00:04:00,450 --> 00:04:05,387 - When you have a child die, it's very tough for families. 57 00:04:06,820 --> 00:04:09,840 Some people do pull together. 58 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,840 It depends a lot on who they are before it happened 59 00:04:14,890 --> 00:04:17,570 and they seem to be made of the right stuff 60 00:04:17,570 --> 00:04:20,500 to be able to support each other 61 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:24,743 and to stay as a family and also enjoy their grandkids. 62 00:04:26,726 --> 00:04:27,950 - One day at a time, right? - Yep. 63 00:04:29,713 --> 00:04:33,200 - Okay, I guess the best thing is to text Jeff back 64 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,303 and tell him that you'll go with Zoe and I'll go with Danny. 65 00:04:37,390 --> 00:04:38,850 - That's great. - Yeah, that works. 66 00:04:38,850 --> 00:04:39,683 Yeah. 67 00:04:39,683 --> 00:04:42,217 - I'd rather travel to Schuylkill that early in the morning- 68 00:04:42,217 --> 00:04:43,050 - Yeah. - Than in the afternoon, 69 00:04:43,050 --> 00:04:43,883 that's for sure. 70 00:04:43,883 --> 00:04:45,520 - Well, both of us will get to see. 71 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,020 - Yeah. - Yeah, see the kids. 72 00:04:47,992 --> 00:04:48,825 - I don't know what the scene is, 73 00:04:48,825 --> 00:04:50,333 but that's Jeff and Bobby there. 74 00:04:51,368 --> 00:04:52,201 He was a good friend of mine. 75 00:04:52,201 --> 00:04:53,560 I just went to his grave site. 76 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,400 - It's been years since I wore a wedding band 77 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,237 and now because we got these at our 50th, 78 00:04:58,237 --> 00:04:59,930 I'm gonna wear it all the time. 79 00:04:59,930 --> 00:05:01,137 - Do you know when I lost the first one? 80 00:05:01,137 --> 00:05:04,160 - I have it in my drawer. - You still have it? 81 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:05,413 - I found it, yeah. 82 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,190 - Here's Jeff and Bobby. 83 00:05:09,190 --> 00:05:11,240 I forget what this was. 84 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,273 Probably he was in Princeton or just had left Princeton. 85 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,870 He left Princeton in '97 86 00:05:18,270 --> 00:05:20,130 and this is of course Bobby at, 87 00:05:20,130 --> 00:05:21,800 I'm sure it's, yeah, it's at Princeton. 88 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:22,633 I don't know. 89 00:05:23,528 --> 00:05:25,592 I don't know if it was part of graduation. 90 00:05:25,592 --> 00:05:26,900 - And then that's why it's hard to leave. 91 00:05:26,900 --> 00:05:28,520 We have so many memories here. 92 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,070 - We called this a starter home, right? 93 00:05:30,070 --> 00:05:31,130 - Yeah. 94 00:05:31,130 --> 00:05:34,167 We started and ended. - We started and ended. 95 00:05:34,167 --> 00:05:36,150 - This is down at Cape May. 96 00:05:36,150 --> 00:05:38,450 Might have been the last weekend we saw Bobby. 97 00:05:39,660 --> 00:05:41,400 This was his fiancee, Jen. 98 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:43,540 That's right. They weren't engaged. 99 00:05:43,540 --> 00:05:44,720 Jeez. 100 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,493 And they were to be engaged that following week. 101 00:05:48,660 --> 00:05:49,650 - They were going... 102 00:05:49,650 --> 00:05:51,813 He hadn't given her the ring when he died. 103 00:05:53,020 --> 00:05:55,130 - That's, uh, it's such a great photo. 104 00:05:55,130 --> 00:05:57,093 It's probably the best photo of him. 105 00:05:58,630 --> 00:06:00,880 They used to share a room, but as Bobby got older, 106 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:02,380 he wanted his own little room. 107 00:06:03,510 --> 00:06:06,060 Of course we revamped it. 108 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:07,780 There was a bed here. 109 00:06:07,780 --> 00:06:09,480 This was June 21st. 110 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,130 Bobby just loved to write. Phenomenal writer. 111 00:06:12,130 --> 00:06:14,522 And just to give you an example, 112 00:06:14,522 --> 00:06:18,050 when he was in third grade, I'll just never forget this, 113 00:06:18,050 --> 00:06:19,150 I forget the teacher's name, 114 00:06:19,150 --> 00:06:23,430 but we were sitting there after the interview, 115 00:06:23,430 --> 00:06:25,410 of course he was doing great in class and all that, 116 00:06:25,410 --> 00:06:28,520 but you know, all third graders seem to do great. 117 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:30,995 But she said, let me tell you something, Bob, 118 00:06:30,995 --> 00:06:33,470 I'm telling you right now, save your pennies. 119 00:06:33,470 --> 00:06:35,320 Said because this kid's going to Harvard 120 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,840 or an Ivy League school. 121 00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:39,090 Little Bobby. 122 00:06:39,090 --> 00:06:41,720 Bobby was on the side right here with Helen. 123 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,110 - It's just hard to believe though. 124 00:06:43,110 --> 00:06:45,650 I mean, when I look at those times 125 00:06:45,650 --> 00:06:47,693 and think about Bobby as a little boy, 126 00:06:48,530 --> 00:06:52,010 it's so painful to think he's not here. 127 00:06:52,010 --> 00:06:54,020 He's in New York. He's fine. 128 00:06:54,020 --> 00:06:55,950 Because that's where I left him. 129 00:06:55,950 --> 00:06:58,030 I see him as a little boy and then he's gone 130 00:06:58,030 --> 00:07:01,240 and it's almost like a little bit of like guilt in there. 131 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,323 Like I wasn't able to keep him alive. 132 00:07:05,950 --> 00:07:06,783 Friends said to me, 133 00:07:06,783 --> 00:07:09,420 I can't believe you're still going up to New York 134 00:07:09,420 --> 00:07:10,800 and we couldn't get enough of it 135 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,230 because that's what he loved. 136 00:07:12,230 --> 00:07:13,400 He loved being up there. 137 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,450 - I mean, a lot of people won't go to Ground Zero. 138 00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:18,850 I just don't know how people can just walk away from it. 139 00:07:18,850 --> 00:07:19,770 - You have to understand 140 00:07:19,770 --> 00:07:21,640 not everyone can deal with that. 141 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,150 I know I can't, I, I just, 142 00:07:24,150 --> 00:07:28,000 I want to just think of Bobby as whole and perfect. 143 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:28,833 - I don't know. 144 00:07:28,833 --> 00:07:30,220 That's what's bothered me about people 145 00:07:30,220 --> 00:07:31,510 that they can't look at what happened that day- 146 00:07:31,510 --> 00:07:34,780 - You can't judge other people by what you're doing. 147 00:07:34,780 --> 00:07:36,350 This is your journey, 148 00:07:36,350 --> 00:07:39,060 this is your way of going through the tunnel 149 00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:40,190 to get to the other side. 150 00:07:40,190 --> 00:07:41,810 You need to do this. 151 00:07:41,810 --> 00:07:43,340 I couldn't go. - Well that's why... 152 00:07:43,340 --> 00:07:44,340 Why can't you do it? 153 00:07:44,340 --> 00:07:46,260 - It's not going to bring him back. 154 00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:47,540 It would be wasted time 155 00:07:47,540 --> 00:07:49,973 to have me in the position you're in. 156 00:07:49,973 --> 00:07:51,046 Thank god you do it, though. 157 00:07:51,046 --> 00:07:53,170 - It seems like I'm almost ordained to do this 158 00:07:53,170 --> 00:07:54,350 for some reason because- 159 00:07:54,350 --> 00:07:56,600 - I know you feel that way. - Because no one does it. 160 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:58,310 - She's stuck in the marriage. 161 00:07:58,310 --> 00:08:01,340 She's stuck with Bob and it's obviously painful 162 00:08:01,340 --> 00:08:04,330 and she does what she needs to to cope 163 00:08:04,330 --> 00:08:07,000 and to basically survive. 164 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,170 - When it gets more and morbid 165 00:08:08,170 --> 00:08:12,040 and you describe certain aspects of it that I can't handle, 166 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,690 I think it's time for me to just let you talk, you know? 167 00:08:15,690 --> 00:08:17,293 So I think I'll do that. 168 00:08:19,410 --> 00:08:20,243 Excuse me. 169 00:08:25,150 --> 00:08:25,983 Okay. 170 00:08:27,300 --> 00:08:28,890 Catch you later. - All right. 171 00:08:30,780 --> 00:08:32,930 - So I will say about Bob McIlvaine 172 00:08:32,930 --> 00:08:35,310 is that one of the things that impressed me about him 173 00:08:35,310 --> 00:08:40,310 is that he has grown over the years from what I could tell 174 00:08:40,420 --> 00:08:43,560 and this trauma has kind of refined him. 175 00:08:43,560 --> 00:08:47,310 - On September 10th, life was perfect. 176 00:08:47,310 --> 00:08:49,380 We had two kids, Bobby and Geoff. 177 00:08:49,380 --> 00:08:52,730 Bobby graduated from Princeton, working up in New York, 178 00:08:52,730 --> 00:08:54,570 living up in New York. 179 00:08:54,570 --> 00:08:56,613 We were on a pedestal on the 10th, 180 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:59,730 then September 11th came. 181 00:08:59,730 --> 00:09:01,041 - Something hit the World Trade Center. 182 00:09:01,041 --> 00:09:04,596 A huge explosion. 183 00:09:04,596 --> 00:09:08,513 - We saw an explosion at the Twin Towers. 184 00:09:10,410 --> 00:09:12,920 - Helen calls me, the Tower's been hit. 185 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,240 She still wants to turn the TV... 186 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,880 I had turned the TV on and then she called 187 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,360 and she said I can't get ahold of Bobby. 188 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,860 She immediately called him and there was no answer, 189 00:09:23,860 --> 00:09:25,850 but of course we didn't think anything was wrong 190 00:09:25,850 --> 00:09:27,080 because he worked at Merrill Lynch, 191 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,730 which was right across the street from the Towers. 192 00:09:30,730 --> 00:09:32,933 I was in work and I said, look, I have to leave. 193 00:09:33,860 --> 00:09:34,860 - It's very bad. 194 00:09:34,860 --> 00:09:37,000 - Did the building collapse? - Yeah. 195 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,480 - Oh my, the whole building? 196 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:40,073 - I don't know if it's the whole building. 197 00:09:40,073 --> 00:09:41,250 It's so crazy... 198 00:09:41,250 --> 00:09:43,020 - So Merrill Lynch, of course we were talking 199 00:09:43,020 --> 00:09:44,420 to Merrill Lynch immediately 200 00:09:44,420 --> 00:09:47,190 and I went up there to look for him. 201 00:09:47,190 --> 00:09:49,510 And there was so many people down at Ground Zero 202 00:09:49,510 --> 00:09:52,300 walking around the area, just looking for people. 203 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:53,730 Oh, I think we called, you know, 204 00:09:53,730 --> 00:09:55,469 we found out where, where he was. 205 00:09:55,469 --> 00:09:57,313 He was at the coroners, okay? 206 00:09:58,250 --> 00:10:00,520 But I don't know if we found our right there. 207 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,240 He said they had a wallet. 208 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:04,560 That's how they found out. 209 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:05,550 We had the wallet. 210 00:10:05,550 --> 00:10:06,460 In fact... 211 00:10:08,540 --> 00:10:10,343 I got the wallet right here. 212 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:13,520 This is a biohazard thing. 213 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:14,780 I don't think you can see. 214 00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:16,740 I've had it opened many times, 215 00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:19,893 but this is a biohazard. 216 00:10:27,490 --> 00:10:32,343 This is the wallet that they had. 217 00:10:35,010 --> 00:10:37,680 In other words, we found out they had a full body 218 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:40,560 except for, and I'll show you what happened to him, 219 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:41,983 but the wallet was one them. 220 00:10:42,910 --> 00:10:45,620 Now at the time, everything was fine. 221 00:10:45,620 --> 00:10:48,300 Everything's disintegrated, everything in here is. 222 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:49,720 But I think... 223 00:10:55,350 --> 00:10:58,210 They had Bobby's license. 224 00:10:58,210 --> 00:11:00,460 And Helen went up to the dentist 225 00:11:00,460 --> 00:11:02,140 and they actually got x-rays. 226 00:11:02,140 --> 00:11:05,850 Helen brought the x-rays down and it was a match. 227 00:11:05,850 --> 00:11:07,600 So the next morning we took him home. 228 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:08,433 We're... 229 00:11:16,970 --> 00:11:19,120 Believe me, we're one of the luckiest ones. 230 00:11:22,250 --> 00:11:25,173 Because so many people didn't get bodies. Nothing. 231 00:11:26,383 --> 00:11:28,280 And we actually got a full, not a full body, 232 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,563 but we got a body to take home and bury. 233 00:11:33,290 --> 00:11:36,163 And we, you know, we're so grateful for that. 234 00:11:37,270 --> 00:11:39,740 - Whose grief is it? Whose loss is it? 235 00:11:39,740 --> 00:11:41,650 In some way, the government 236 00:11:41,650 --> 00:11:44,720 has claimed the loss as their own. 237 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,437 Folks were told how to feel, what to think about it 238 00:11:49,437 --> 00:11:52,790 and it adds to their pain when it's used 239 00:11:52,790 --> 00:11:57,310 for other types of policies that have nothing to do with it. 240 00:11:57,310 --> 00:11:59,830 - We went to war and there goes the authority thing. 241 00:11:59,830 --> 00:12:04,330 I didn't believe it was necessary to go to war 242 00:12:04,330 --> 00:12:05,650 because of Bobby. 243 00:12:05,650 --> 00:12:08,453 I knew Bobby would have said, what, are you nuts? 244 00:12:10,590 --> 00:12:14,260 And this, I can't give you an exact time for this. 245 00:12:14,260 --> 00:12:15,360 I think it was July 4th, 246 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,303 but I've been to so many demonstrations over the years. 247 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:20,750 And of course around the world, 248 00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:23,490 but I think this was in Philadelphia 249 00:12:23,490 --> 00:12:25,860 and it was a candlelight type of thing, 250 00:12:25,860 --> 00:12:29,950 but again, I've just been to so many of them. 251 00:12:29,950 --> 00:12:31,699 I just can't place it. 252 00:12:31,699 --> 00:12:33,730 You know, I always wore a picture of Bobby. 253 00:12:33,730 --> 00:12:36,260 I haven't been doing that as much as I did before. 254 00:12:36,260 --> 00:12:38,900 He would have been 100% against the war. 255 00:12:38,900 --> 00:12:42,490 And I was. Helen and I both were 100%. 256 00:12:42,490 --> 00:12:45,040 - A conflict is part of our nature. 257 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,610 We have a way of identifying 258 00:12:49,660 --> 00:12:52,870 the us versus them or the other 259 00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:57,530 and so that leads to all sorts of problems 260 00:12:57,530 --> 00:13:00,770 where the other is not considered in there 261 00:13:00,770 --> 00:13:05,570 as fully human cause it's hard to get people to fight wars. 262 00:13:05,570 --> 00:13:07,313 People don't hate on their own. 263 00:13:08,380 --> 00:13:10,250 They have to be given a story. 264 00:13:10,250 --> 00:13:11,767 - When I got arrested down in Washington, DC 265 00:13:11,767 --> 00:13:14,750 at the protests, I didn't want to go to jail, 266 00:13:14,750 --> 00:13:17,803 so they arrested us, took us away in a paddy wagon 267 00:13:17,803 --> 00:13:22,460 and paid the fine, but everyone agreed to that. 268 00:13:22,460 --> 00:13:23,910 so not some people were getting arrested, 269 00:13:23,910 --> 00:13:25,480 so forth and so on. 270 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:27,470 So I can't tell you, I would think that would 271 00:13:27,470 --> 00:13:29,690 be the first big protest. 272 00:13:29,690 --> 00:13:31,650 'Cause Helen and I were doing the Peaceful Tomorrows 273 00:13:31,650 --> 00:13:35,060 and with that, we did the protest with Peaceful Tomorrows. 274 00:13:35,060 --> 00:13:37,710 And I actually went to the commission hearings 275 00:13:37,710 --> 00:13:40,870 thinking that we would actually get something done. 276 00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:43,070 I really, I kept that hope alive, 277 00:13:43,070 --> 00:13:44,970 but Condoleezza Rice on August 6, 278 00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:47,253 and she just bullshitted the whole time. 279 00:13:48,145 --> 00:13:49,070 And even the commissioners 280 00:13:49,070 --> 00:13:50,390 were getting so frustrated with it. 281 00:13:50,390 --> 00:13:52,780 But see, in those hearings, 282 00:13:52,780 --> 00:13:55,330 each person that's asked a question, you know, 283 00:13:55,330 --> 00:13:58,423 they couldn't go one for 15, 20, 25 minutes to grill you. 284 00:13:59,650 --> 00:14:01,810 Listen, Condoleezza, you're not telling us anything. 285 00:14:01,810 --> 00:14:03,780 Let's get to the facts here. 286 00:14:03,780 --> 00:14:05,100 But no, they get five minutes 287 00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:06,800 and she filibustered through it. 288 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,364 And I just started, I said, you know, 289 00:14:08,364 --> 00:14:13,330 I won't say right here, but you know, MF-this, 290 00:14:13,330 --> 00:14:15,870 no good sons of bitches 291 00:14:15,870 --> 00:14:17,700 and Canadian broadcasting, you know, 292 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,007 they heard me, so they wanted to hear this, 293 00:14:20,007 --> 00:14:23,420 and from there I just changed direction. 294 00:14:23,420 --> 00:14:24,480 That's when I decided, well, 295 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,830 I'm not going to do Peaceful Tomorrows anymore. 296 00:14:26,830 --> 00:14:30,373 I'm just going to talk about what happened on 9/11. 297 00:14:33,140 --> 00:14:35,013 Hey my man. - Hey, Bob. 298 00:14:38,630 --> 00:14:39,610 How are you? 299 00:14:39,610 --> 00:14:41,230 My name is Tony Szamboti, 300 00:14:41,230 --> 00:14:43,660 actually formally Anthony Szamboti, 301 00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:46,262 and I'm a degreed mechanical engineer. 302 00:14:46,262 --> 00:14:47,550 Are you still in the same place? 303 00:14:47,550 --> 00:14:48,383 - Oh yeah. 304 00:14:48,383 --> 00:14:49,400 - Near Fort Washington? 305 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:50,900 - 47 years now. - 47... 306 00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:52,630 How long? - Bobby was two-years-old. 307 00:14:52,630 --> 00:14:53,463 - Wow. 308 00:14:53,463 --> 00:14:55,190 - So he would be 46. 309 00:14:55,190 --> 00:14:57,362 - He would be, he was 26 when he passed away. 310 00:14:57,362 --> 00:14:59,015 - Yeah, so it's, yeah, 46. 311 00:14:59,015 --> 00:15:00,620 - 46-years-old. - Good memory. 312 00:15:00,620 --> 00:15:02,510 - Well, I know he was 26 when it happened. 313 00:15:02,510 --> 00:15:03,580 - I didn't think about that. 314 00:15:03,580 --> 00:15:06,040 - The interesting thing about engineering that I can say 315 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:09,260 is problems, the way they are solved, is it evolves. 316 00:15:09,260 --> 00:15:10,770 The solution evolves. 317 00:15:10,770 --> 00:15:13,520 You have a subconscious mind and a conscious mind. 318 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:14,890 Your conscious mind can only handle 319 00:15:14,890 --> 00:15:16,730 so much at any given time. 320 00:15:16,730 --> 00:15:17,910 Your subconscious mind 321 00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:20,840 is a vast storehouse or warehouse 322 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,260 of all your life experience and what happens, 323 00:15:23,260 --> 00:15:25,300 you hear the old expression sleep on it. 324 00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:28,710 That's the way difficult problems are actually solved. 325 00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:30,614 And if there is a solution, it'll come, 326 00:15:30,614 --> 00:15:33,390 it'll evolve, it'll converge. 327 00:15:33,390 --> 00:15:35,460 And that's why engineering is fun to me 328 00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:36,910 because you're thinking about things, 329 00:15:36,910 --> 00:15:38,730 you're trying to solve this problem 330 00:15:38,730 --> 00:15:42,810 and you're musing or mulling it over and sort of, 331 00:15:42,810 --> 00:15:44,600 that's, you know, even with 9/11, 332 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,000 that's the way it worked with me, 333 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:48,340 looking at these buildings. 334 00:15:48,340 --> 00:15:50,210 You know, I imagine myself in the basement 335 00:15:50,210 --> 00:15:52,680 of a large skyscraper and these huge, 336 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,443 concrete encased columns and you know, 337 00:15:55,443 --> 00:15:56,920 like a parking garage or something. 338 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:59,493 How did that just completely give up the ghost? 339 00:16:07,510 --> 00:16:10,659 - So this didn't happen until 2000... 340 00:16:10,659 --> 00:16:12,210 Six, seven, eight... 341 00:16:12,210 --> 00:16:14,060 I really didn't have the guts enough to go up 342 00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:17,250 and find out exactly what happened to him, okay? 343 00:16:17,250 --> 00:16:18,840 So this has been sitting there 344 00:16:20,808 --> 00:16:21,980 and of course the first thing we get 345 00:16:21,980 --> 00:16:26,020 is a picture of what happened. 346 00:16:26,020 --> 00:16:28,390 All right, now this is how I started coming out, 347 00:16:28,390 --> 00:16:30,760 finding out, you know, what I feel happened to him. 348 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,240 So we didn't know for sure. 349 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:33,570 A lot of people thought, 350 00:16:33,570 --> 00:16:35,860 family members thought that maybe he jumped. 351 00:16:35,860 --> 00:16:37,280 His friend said that no, 352 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,410 he was running away from the building 353 00:16:40,410 --> 00:16:43,350 and he got hit by falling debris. 354 00:16:43,350 --> 00:16:44,900 - You know, Bob's a decent guy. 355 00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:48,040 Who wants to have their 26-year-old son 356 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,530 killed in that kind of fashion where, you know, 357 00:16:51,530 --> 00:16:54,920 his body is partially destroyed? 358 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,063 - In this, his right arm's missing, okay? 359 00:16:59,380 --> 00:17:03,223 In this, from his nose down, his entire face is missing. 360 00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:06,210 Okay, so in other words, everything has blown. 361 00:17:06,210 --> 00:17:08,560 His eyes are missing. Everything is blown out. 362 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,033 Back of his head is intact but, 363 00:17:12,621 --> 00:17:14,470 you know, there's some fractures, okay? 364 00:17:14,470 --> 00:17:17,370 - And all the wounds to his body were from the front. 365 00:17:17,370 --> 00:17:19,480 No wounds on the back, right? - Right. 366 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,030 - So that would indicate explosive force. 367 00:17:23,030 --> 00:17:24,920 - Can I just read you something? 368 00:17:27,245 --> 00:17:28,540 You know, and it's taken a long time 369 00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:31,120 to get to the point where I am right now, 370 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:35,400 but the story of 9/11. 371 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,330 This is coming right from the 9/11 commission hearing. 372 00:17:38,330 --> 00:17:41,320 They spent two lines talking about 373 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,037 what happened to the buildings. 374 00:17:43,037 --> 00:17:47,310 "A jet fuel fireball erupted upon impact 375 00:17:47,310 --> 00:17:52,170 and shot down at least one bank of elevators. 376 00:17:52,170 --> 00:17:56,610 The fireball exploded onto numerous lower levels, 377 00:17:56,610 --> 00:18:00,840 including the 77th, the 22nd, 378 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,080 the West Street lobby and the B4 level." 379 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,480 - You expect us to believe this fireball came down 380 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:07,820 and then exploded. 381 00:18:07,820 --> 00:18:11,700 Explosions are caused by rapid release of energy 382 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:13,760 from a confined substance. 383 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,840 The fireball is not confined. - No. 384 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,050 Ground floor, the lobby, flowers, things, 385 00:18:19,050 --> 00:18:20,720 they weren't singed or anything. 386 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,590 I have documentation that he was found outside the building. 387 00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:25,840 - Outside. This was before the buildings came down. 388 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,490 - Well when they picked him up, 389 00:18:27,490 --> 00:18:28,720 he was outside the building. 390 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,260 - Right, but the building hadn't fallen yet. 391 00:18:30,260 --> 00:18:31,170 Is that true? I think- 392 00:18:31,170 --> 00:18:33,280 - No, no, of course not. - Right. 393 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,036 He was one of the first ones- - Well... 394 00:18:36,036 --> 00:18:36,960 - Taken out, right? 395 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,620 - The report on him, he had, rigor mortis hadn't set in, 396 00:18:40,620 --> 00:18:41,863 so that's when you can really tell when- 397 00:18:41,863 --> 00:18:45,420 - I know, when- - So it's probably less... 398 00:18:45,420 --> 00:18:49,470 He got to the coroners less than two hours after he died, 399 00:18:49,470 --> 00:18:50,970 less than two hours. - Right. 400 00:18:50,970 --> 00:18:53,290 - And what happened, I think what happened, 401 00:18:53,290 --> 00:18:55,120 is Bobby was walking and decided 402 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,380 to go up to the floors and I think he was hit 403 00:18:59,270 --> 00:19:03,180 as he was trying to walk in because of the nature. 404 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:06,070 His whole face was just blown off. 405 00:19:06,070 --> 00:19:09,100 He lost his arm and he was blown out of his shoes. 406 00:19:09,100 --> 00:19:12,050 So with that, I, you know, I stick by that story, 407 00:19:12,050 --> 00:19:14,400 but then I've gone too much further than that. 408 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,940 Again, I want to know who killed him and why. 409 00:19:17,940 --> 00:19:21,130 - Somebody said to me one time where a coverup 410 00:19:21,130 --> 00:19:22,730 is only six inches deep. 411 00:19:22,730 --> 00:19:26,500 You imagine a big layer of concrete, but it's a mile wide. 412 00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:28,970 So unless you dig down vertical, you can't get under it. 413 00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:30,993 You can't see out to the edges of it. 414 00:19:37,963 --> 00:19:39,060 - We're up to, all right, 415 00:19:39,060 --> 00:19:41,490 three minutes, you're doing another 30 seconds. 416 00:19:41,490 --> 00:19:43,830 Or should we just ruin his tea and take it out now? 417 00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:45,850 It's true, though. It does make a hell of a difference. 418 00:19:45,850 --> 00:19:48,630 There's no point doing squeeze, squeeze, 30 seconds. 419 00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:51,297 You'll get an absolutely rubbish cup of tea. 420 00:19:51,297 --> 00:19:56,297 - I'd like most of this to be edited out, please. 421 00:19:56,340 --> 00:19:58,600 My name's Maureen Lucille Campbell 422 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,490 and I live in Hassocks, West Sussex, 423 00:20:01,490 --> 00:20:03,080 about eight miles from Brighton 424 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,130 and I've been retired for many years since I was 55, 425 00:20:07,130 --> 00:20:08,850 21 years ago. 426 00:20:08,850 --> 00:20:11,270 Probably only came in about three or four that morning. 427 00:20:11,270 --> 00:20:13,710 - We were so hung over. - Hung over. 428 00:20:13,710 --> 00:20:15,850 - I can tell 'cause Geoff- - They look like criminals. 429 00:20:15,850 --> 00:20:18,593 - Well we are still drunk. - Oh, I know. 430 00:20:24,420 --> 00:20:26,310 - Well, the three boys I'd say 431 00:20:26,310 --> 00:20:28,420 different in a number of ways. 432 00:20:28,420 --> 00:20:30,093 We've got Matthew, the eldest. 433 00:20:36,418 --> 00:20:37,251 - Yep, my hair. 434 00:20:38,122 --> 00:20:39,410 It's just, it's where I'm at right now. 435 00:20:39,410 --> 00:20:42,850 Frustrated and pissed off with current events. 436 00:20:42,850 --> 00:20:44,160 but in particularly, you know, 437 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,890 my fight for the last 20 years. 438 00:20:46,890 --> 00:20:48,440 And so it's just, yeah, it's where I'm at. 439 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,310 A little bit like this up to the system. 440 00:20:51,310 --> 00:20:53,484 Yeah, for the wake that we had. 441 00:20:53,484 --> 00:20:54,750 We had a memorial with no remains. 442 00:20:54,750 --> 00:20:56,583 This was I think 30th of September? 443 00:20:56,583 --> 00:20:57,543 - Yes, it was. 444 00:20:57,543 --> 00:21:01,030 - I mean, that to me is just a classic photo. 445 00:21:01,030 --> 00:21:02,420 My name is Matt Campbell. 446 00:21:02,420 --> 00:21:06,800 I live in the south of England in a small village in Sussex. 447 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,380 I have a degree in mathematical physics 448 00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:13,880 and a master's in applied mathematics 449 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,580 and I have a second master's 450 00:21:16,580 --> 00:21:18,820 in scientific application software. 451 00:21:18,820 --> 00:21:20,970 - And Robert, the youngest one I was most like. 452 00:21:20,970 --> 00:21:23,730 We like the quiet life and if someone said 453 00:21:23,730 --> 00:21:27,270 two and two made eight, we'd say, yeah, that's fine. 454 00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:30,680 We don't like confrontation and just let it go. 455 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,770 - Yeah, my name is Robert Benjamin Campbell. 456 00:21:33,770 --> 00:21:38,240 I live in Keymer, Hassocks, which is in West Sussex. 457 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,550 - Rob was about five years younger me. 458 00:21:41,550 --> 00:21:43,660 It was sufficient of a gap that in my head 459 00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:45,393 he's always the little brother. 460 00:21:46,442 --> 00:21:48,660 - I had a good friend, Nick, who had his own pub. 461 00:21:48,660 --> 00:21:51,640 What we did is for Geoff, we had his wake there. 462 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,942 So all his friends, his family, everybody came 463 00:21:54,942 --> 00:21:57,500 and what they did as a surprise for the family, 464 00:21:57,500 --> 00:21:58,930 was they had a really good friend 465 00:21:58,930 --> 00:22:01,190 who's really good at doing paintings 466 00:22:01,190 --> 00:22:03,590 and they did a painting of Geoff. 467 00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:06,330 My friends, like, you know, 468 00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:07,800 like Geoff, a lot, if you know what I mean. 469 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:08,800 Looked up to him. 470 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,280 - That's Geoff's James Bond- 471 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,291 - Yes, coming out the... 472 00:22:13,291 --> 00:22:14,360 - I think he loved that, didn't he? 473 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:18,320 - Outgoing, very sort of smiley, lots of charisma, 474 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,060 good nature, generous spirit, always, you know, 475 00:22:22,060 --> 00:22:23,403 good at listening. 476 00:22:24,390 --> 00:22:25,540 He'd laugh. 477 00:22:25,540 --> 00:22:27,050 He's four years older than me, 478 00:22:27,050 --> 00:22:28,760 so there's a bit of a gap, but, 479 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,760 I always looked up to Geoff more than Matt. 480 00:22:34,030 --> 00:22:36,798 Sorry. 481 00:22:36,798 --> 00:22:38,934 He was a bit of a nerd. 482 00:22:38,934 --> 00:22:40,182 - Both Matthew and Geoff really 483 00:22:40,182 --> 00:22:41,790 had their dad's brains, really clever. 484 00:22:41,790 --> 00:22:43,460 Robert always said, the youngest, 485 00:22:43,460 --> 00:22:47,100 the store brains ran out when it was his time to be born. 486 00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:48,470 - Both finished uni. 487 00:22:48,470 --> 00:22:50,650 So Geoff finished I think a year before me 488 00:22:50,650 --> 00:22:52,470 and just she tarted to travel 489 00:22:52,470 --> 00:22:54,940 and he definitely kind of switched from 490 00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:56,740 I'm going to work in a bank, 491 00:22:56,740 --> 00:22:57,730 because I think he realized 492 00:22:57,730 --> 00:23:00,140 the trading route wasn't going to happen, 493 00:23:00,140 --> 00:23:02,990 and just basically became a specialist. 494 00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:04,590 His area was risk. 495 00:23:04,590 --> 00:23:07,710 With Reuters, who he eventually ended up working for, 496 00:23:07,710 --> 00:23:10,060 had products that worked in that space. 497 00:23:10,060 --> 00:23:10,893 - This is Caroline. 498 00:23:10,893 --> 00:23:13,330 They went up to London and took photos. 499 00:23:13,330 --> 00:23:14,620 Phoebe's christening, isn't it? 500 00:23:14,620 --> 00:23:15,453 Yeah. 501 00:23:15,453 --> 00:23:16,286 So that's the little church 502 00:23:16,286 --> 00:23:18,170 where we actually had the memorial. 503 00:23:18,170 --> 00:23:19,770 Quite a glamorous shot of them, 504 00:23:19,770 --> 00:23:22,103 and they went up to London, look right he is there. 505 00:23:22,103 --> 00:23:24,260 - I think it was early 2000. 506 00:23:24,260 --> 00:23:27,470 Worked for a client in Manhattan for six weeks, 507 00:23:27,470 --> 00:23:28,510 eight weeks, something like that. 508 00:23:28,510 --> 00:23:29,343 I can't remember. 509 00:23:29,343 --> 00:23:32,090 So staying really close to where Geoff lived 510 00:23:32,090 --> 00:23:36,600 and he'd just met Caroline I think the previous year. 511 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:39,620 And I think he was looking at getting an apartment with her. 512 00:23:39,620 --> 00:23:41,230 I mean, it was that serious that quick, 513 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:44,060 which, you know, I said he'd had relationships before, 514 00:23:44,060 --> 00:23:45,270 it was quite fast. 515 00:23:45,270 --> 00:23:46,870 And so very quickly, you know, 516 00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:49,600 it was obvious that this was very serious. 517 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,040 I guess he'd been working for Reuters 518 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,900 for at least a year, maybe longer. 519 00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:57,430 And, you know, he was looking to, I guess, you know, 520 00:23:57,430 --> 00:23:58,273 put his roots down. 521 00:23:58,273 --> 00:24:00,250 I mean, it was very clear he loved, 522 00:24:00,250 --> 00:24:02,610 absolutely loved New York. 523 00:24:02,610 --> 00:24:03,980 - Well you know I'm fanatical 524 00:24:03,980 --> 00:24:05,630 about keeping all these documents, 525 00:24:05,630 --> 00:24:08,880 so I just had a quick look through to see 526 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,460 what we could dig up. 527 00:24:10,460 --> 00:24:14,450 I met Matt originally back in '97, '98. 528 00:24:14,450 --> 00:24:17,490 We were both working on the same project. 529 00:24:17,490 --> 00:24:19,600 Matt was working for one of the suppliers. 530 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,600 Matt's brother, Geoff, was working for Reuters. 531 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,810 We had an idea that we would need 532 00:24:25,810 --> 00:24:29,060 a North American New York based office 533 00:24:29,060 --> 00:24:32,550 and Geoff was interested in leaving Reuters 534 00:24:32,550 --> 00:24:34,330 and helping us set that up. 535 00:24:34,330 --> 00:24:36,610 - In the weeks and the months prior, 536 00:24:36,610 --> 00:24:39,080 we'd obviously been talking with him, 537 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,060 and Henry in particular, 538 00:24:40,060 --> 00:24:42,690 just sorting out the structure of the proposed company 539 00:24:42,690 --> 00:24:43,760 over in the states. 540 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,388 - But he'd actually come to England at the end of August, 541 00:24:46,388 --> 00:24:47,950 the August bank holiday time. 542 00:24:47,950 --> 00:24:50,390 - Did his usual thing, rushing around the country, 543 00:24:50,390 --> 00:24:52,460 seeing family, friends. 544 00:24:52,460 --> 00:24:56,180 - Well, we worked in a very small, niche industry 545 00:24:56,180 --> 00:24:58,980 of specialists and there is a whole ecosystem 546 00:24:58,980 --> 00:25:01,630 of industry press and industry conferences. 547 00:25:01,630 --> 00:25:05,323 And there was one coming up on September the 11th 548 00:25:05,323 --> 00:25:08,360 that was going to be at the World Trade Center. 549 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:12,320 So it ended up being that Nick and Geoff 550 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,070 would go to the conference and I ended up staying in London. 551 00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:19,750 Meanwhile, Matt was on holiday in Lanzarote. 552 00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:20,610 - I'm on the beach 553 00:25:20,610 --> 00:25:23,660 obviously with my mum and my wife and two kids. 554 00:25:23,660 --> 00:25:27,410 They were probably six months, 18 months at the time 555 00:25:27,410 --> 00:25:30,950 so you're doing stuff like you do, playing in the sand 556 00:25:30,950 --> 00:25:35,180 building sand castles and just enjoying that time. 557 00:25:35,180 --> 00:25:37,010 - Around lunchtime or just after 558 00:25:37,010 --> 00:25:41,300 I'd been exchanging emails with Geoff about, you know, 559 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:44,470 who he needs to meet at the conference and stuff like that. 560 00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:47,750 And I recall getting an email from him 561 00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:50,410 where he literally said, okay, Henry, I've got to go. 562 00:25:50,410 --> 00:25:52,433 I'm going to be late for the conference. 563 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:56,650 That may have been the last email he ever sent. 564 00:25:56,650 --> 00:25:58,330 - So I was at work 565 00:25:58,330 --> 00:26:02,250 and just on the computer, on the internet, 566 00:26:02,250 --> 00:26:06,870 and then we started hearing about what was going on 567 00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:08,200 at the World Trade Center. 568 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,890 - Phoebe, who was only six months old, 569 00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:12,520 was just struggling to settle. 570 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,720 All my kids have loved just being pushed around 571 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,830 in pushchairs and buggies. 572 00:26:16,830 --> 00:26:18,470 Gets them to sleep most of the time, 573 00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:20,240 so you do what any parent did 574 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,140 and Mel took her off the beach time 575 00:26:22,140 --> 00:26:24,410 and was just basically walking up and down. 576 00:26:24,410 --> 00:26:26,470 You know, please sleep. 577 00:26:26,470 --> 00:26:29,100 - My understanding is that she saw the televisions there 578 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:31,440 which suddenly would show the Towers 579 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:32,670 and what was going on. 580 00:26:32,670 --> 00:26:34,131 One had been hit. 581 00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:41,950 I think she may have come back and called Matthew, 582 00:26:41,950 --> 00:26:43,720 Matthew went up and I was on the beach, 583 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,780 and then eventually Matthew said basically 584 00:26:46,780 --> 00:26:48,230 what has happened. 585 00:26:48,230 --> 00:26:51,070 - Immediately I wasn't that concerned. 586 00:26:51,070 --> 00:26:55,610 I mean, I knew Geoff worked for Reuters up in Time Square. 587 00:26:55,610 --> 00:26:58,020 You're well away from the World Trade. 588 00:26:58,020 --> 00:27:02,170 - Not long after it was basically I think 589 00:27:02,170 --> 00:27:04,670 someone in the office told me, 590 00:27:04,670 --> 00:27:09,460 I think it was Henry who told me that basically 591 00:27:09,460 --> 00:27:13,080 Geoff might have attended the meeting. 592 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:18,080 - I remember calling Henry from this public payphone. 593 00:27:18,610 --> 00:27:21,143 - There I am seeing what's happening on TV. 594 00:27:22,672 --> 00:27:23,880 I'd seen this email from Geoff 595 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:25,571 saying, Henry, I got to go. 596 00:27:25,571 --> 00:27:26,500 I'm going to be late for the conference, 597 00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:29,470 which was at the right time for him to have 598 00:27:29,470 --> 00:27:32,030 got the subway downtown from his apartment 599 00:27:33,460 --> 00:27:34,840 and get to the conference. 600 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,590 I didn't know what to say to Matt. 601 00:27:36,590 --> 00:27:37,427 I just... 602 00:27:38,583 --> 00:27:40,840 I just mumbled something. 603 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,510 I'm not sure what I said, but I didn't tell him that, 604 00:27:43,510 --> 00:27:47,410 hey, I know your brother's in the building. 605 00:27:47,410 --> 00:27:49,463 I couldn't. I mean, what would you say? 606 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,830 - Got through to Rob and he just, 607 00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:55,530 I remember him almost blurting out 608 00:27:57,030 --> 00:27:57,863 Geoff's in the Tower, 609 00:27:57,863 --> 00:28:00,210 and I remember just dropping the phone. 610 00:28:00,210 --> 00:28:02,070 He'd spoken to Caroline and you know, 611 00:28:02,070 --> 00:28:06,770 it became very clear that Geoff had headed down 612 00:28:08,010 --> 00:28:11,770 to the conference and was at the top of the North Tower, 613 00:28:11,770 --> 00:28:14,203 which obviously by this time had collapsed. 614 00:28:15,727 --> 00:28:17,700 - Two came down and one just came down now, 615 00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:20,017 on firefighters and cops. 616 00:28:21,197 --> 00:28:23,453 Really bad, you're gonna have thousands dead. 617 00:28:23,453 --> 00:28:24,900 - I remember mom just agasp. 618 00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:28,370 I mean, she just, she knew, I mean, 619 00:28:28,370 --> 00:28:30,050 she's always said that she felt. 620 00:28:30,050 --> 00:28:31,331 - He died. 621 00:28:31,331 --> 00:28:32,757 I just... 622 00:28:32,757 --> 00:28:35,643 I just had that feeling that he was no more. 623 00:28:37,570 --> 00:28:40,100 - So that was the day where the American guy was 624 00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:41,950 dissolved into tears in our office. 625 00:28:41,950 --> 00:28:46,770 And my diary entry simply says at the end of the day, 626 00:28:46,770 --> 00:28:50,710 WTC tragedy, as straight laced as that. 627 00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:53,543 Later in the day, it started becoming clear. 628 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,520 A few people who were due to be going to the conference 629 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,890 were okay and found and known to be okay, 630 00:29:01,890 --> 00:29:04,280 but an awful lot of people were 631 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,330 not simply not being heard from. 632 00:29:06,330 --> 00:29:08,447 And Nick responds saying, 633 00:29:08,447 --> 00:29:09,800 "Nothing we can do I'm afraid. 634 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,220 People here can't even find out 635 00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:13,090 if husbands and wives were okay." 636 00:29:13,090 --> 00:29:15,050 - I had no idea, I mean, obviously it's going. 637 00:29:15,050 --> 00:29:15,883 But I had no idea. 638 00:29:15,883 --> 00:29:17,620 - You haven't those ones at all. 639 00:29:17,620 --> 00:29:18,453 You saw the Geoff email, right? 640 00:29:18,453 --> 00:29:19,860 - Yeah, yeah, I was copied on that, 641 00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:22,943 but I didn't see until, you know, a couple of days later. 642 00:29:24,268 --> 00:29:25,170 And I remember I used to mock you 643 00:29:25,170 --> 00:29:26,820 for keeping your diary, Henry. 644 00:29:26,820 --> 00:29:31,820 Your sort hourly blow by blow account of working. 645 00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:36,310 - I don't remember exactly how long, 646 00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:39,970 but Matt continued to work for the company for a while, 647 00:29:39,970 --> 00:29:42,100 but the pressure and the stress 648 00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:45,000 and a number of other factors meant that 649 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,140 he just took a leave of absence 650 00:29:47,140 --> 00:29:50,450 that got formalized sometime later as, okay, 651 00:29:50,450 --> 00:29:52,720 Matt's left and he's not coming back to the company. 652 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,510 I kept in touch with Matt and we would talk about stuff 653 00:29:55,510 --> 00:29:57,640 and share views about things. 654 00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,220 And I think he started looking into what had happened 655 00:30:02,220 --> 00:30:04,470 with a bit more interest, 656 00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:09,470 weeding through all of the mad, crazy theories 657 00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:12,550 put around on the internet. 658 00:30:12,550 --> 00:30:14,530 - You know, you get taught in the movies and stuff 659 00:30:14,530 --> 00:30:17,680 that it's been a crime, it's going to be investigated, 660 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,140 you're going to go to court 661 00:30:19,140 --> 00:30:21,820 and you're going to get truth and justice, 662 00:30:21,820 --> 00:30:24,453 potentially someone held accountable for it. 663 00:30:25,780 --> 00:30:28,630 We've never had that with 9/11. 664 00:30:28,630 --> 00:30:31,450 There has been no examination 665 00:30:31,450 --> 00:30:34,780 of the events of that day in court. 666 00:30:34,780 --> 00:30:36,480 We have the 9/11 commission report 667 00:30:37,390 --> 00:30:39,000 as the investigation, 668 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,640 but nothing to that legal standard that we all know. 669 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,463 Whether you trust it or not, it's what normally happens. 670 00:30:46,750 --> 00:30:50,950 - Matt is a very interesting man. 671 00:30:50,950 --> 00:30:55,950 It's going to haunt him if he hasn't moved on, 672 00:30:55,970 --> 00:30:58,370 I can't see that he's ever going to let this go. 673 00:31:00,030 --> 00:31:00,863 - Hey. 674 00:31:00,863 --> 00:31:01,915 - Matt, how are you? How you feeling? 675 00:31:01,915 --> 00:31:03,800 - Ian, how are you doing, mate? 676 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,635 You good? - Yeah, not too bad. 677 00:31:05,635 --> 00:31:06,750 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 678 00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:10,063 So what's new since we saw each other last? 679 00:31:10,063 --> 00:31:11,790 - Apart from my hair? - Your hair, yeah. 680 00:31:11,790 --> 00:31:13,550 I wasn't going to say anything about that, Matt. 681 00:31:13,550 --> 00:31:14,655 - Well you haven't got any, so. 682 00:31:15,488 --> 00:31:16,446 I see you're wearing a- 683 00:31:16,446 --> 00:31:17,279 - 9/11... 684 00:31:17,279 --> 00:31:20,033 Well it's the 20th anniversary coming up, isn't it, so. 685 00:31:20,033 --> 00:31:21,610 I did maths at university. 686 00:31:21,610 --> 00:31:23,870 University was slightly unusual. 687 00:31:23,870 --> 00:31:27,460 I did maths and then I did applied social studies masters. 688 00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:29,800 You know, it was sort of ideal, really, 689 00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,693 to make somebody suspicious about 9/11, 690 00:31:31,693 --> 00:31:33,680 because the maths told me 691 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,400 that there was something terribly wrong 692 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:36,640 with the energy equation, 693 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,270 what we'd call the energy equation of the Towers. 694 00:31:39,270 --> 00:31:42,140 I also have my social science background, 695 00:31:42,140 --> 00:31:46,240 so I knew how easy it is to brainwash people basically. 696 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,840 So people wrote in after our ad in The Guardian 697 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,550 saying, oh, you know, we don't agree with this. 698 00:31:51,550 --> 00:31:54,100 And I wrote a letter back and normally 699 00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:55,853 you wouldn't expect, they'd just bin it. 700 00:31:55,853 --> 00:31:58,450 They think well we've got his money, we'll bin it. 701 00:31:58,450 --> 00:32:00,320 But actually they ran it. 702 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,530 Journalism, you know, if you're antiestablishment 703 00:32:03,530 --> 00:32:05,070 or suspicious of the establishment, 704 00:32:05,070 --> 00:32:07,640 journalism, it's very, very hard to make a living. 705 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,220 And I figured out that freshly roasted coffee 706 00:32:10,220 --> 00:32:11,350 should work well. 707 00:32:11,350 --> 00:32:14,940 We started off with just a homemade coffee roasting machine 708 00:32:14,940 --> 00:32:16,060 on the street corner 709 00:32:16,060 --> 00:32:17,780 and then, you know, it's got bigger 710 00:32:17,780 --> 00:32:21,420 and I'm now I'm approaching retirement, actually. 711 00:32:21,420 --> 00:32:22,253 So if you know anybody out there 712 00:32:22,253 --> 00:32:25,010 who wants to buy a coffee shop in Notting Hill, you know. 713 00:32:25,010 --> 00:32:25,843 - Who is this? 714 00:32:25,843 --> 00:32:27,170 This is... 715 00:32:27,170 --> 00:32:30,351 The full size? - That was the full page. 716 00:32:30,351 --> 00:32:31,333 It would have been bigger than that. 717 00:32:31,333 --> 00:32:32,166 - I was going to say, yeah, 718 00:32:32,166 --> 00:32:33,507 because was a tabloid then or was is still a broad sheet? 719 00:32:33,507 --> 00:32:34,360 - In those days it was still a broadsheet. 720 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:35,740 - Broadsheet, yeah. - Yeah. 721 00:32:35,740 --> 00:32:38,620 - But when we met- - Yeah, when we first. 722 00:32:38,620 --> 00:32:40,530 I remember it clearly, Matt. 723 00:32:40,530 --> 00:32:42,060 - No, I've got a hazy memory, 724 00:32:42,060 --> 00:32:45,790 'cause I thought it was that very first 725 00:32:45,790 --> 00:32:48,420 Reinvestigate 9/11 meeting in about 726 00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:51,070 May 2013 or April 2013. 727 00:32:51,070 --> 00:32:52,650 - I mean, one of the most important things 728 00:32:52,650 --> 00:32:54,690 that happened to the 9/11 Truth Movement 729 00:32:54,690 --> 00:32:56,960 was that Matt Campbell turned up. 730 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,120 - Go back a bit in 2004, because we as a family 731 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,980 had brought back repatriated remains, 732 00:33:03,980 --> 00:33:06,360 through English law, you have to have an inquest. 733 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,540 And I just started to think, a little light bulb moment, 734 00:33:10,540 --> 00:33:14,220 if I repatriated Geoff's remains, 735 00:33:14,220 --> 00:33:17,520 would that force a new inquest? 736 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,870 - That's exactly what politicians have been saying to us. 737 00:33:19,870 --> 00:33:21,650 Can you find a victim? 738 00:33:21,650 --> 00:33:24,220 And then you showed up, you know and I thought... 739 00:33:24,220 --> 00:33:26,820 This is fantastic, you know? We finally cracked it. 740 00:33:26,820 --> 00:33:27,830 - Ian had some contacts. 741 00:33:27,830 --> 00:33:30,900 We ended up arranging a meeting with Michael Meacham. 742 00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:32,950 He was a labor MP, not my MP, 743 00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:34,840 but he'd been a longterm skeptic, 744 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,150 very cynical about what the US government had been up to 745 00:33:38,150 --> 00:33:40,140 and other issues with the narrative. 746 00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:42,170 - And when we had a private meeting with him, 747 00:33:42,170 --> 00:33:45,440 he basically said, this just destroys my reputation 748 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:46,580 when I do this. 749 00:33:46,580 --> 00:33:47,480 - Very supportive. 750 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,750 I mean he basically said whatever I need to do 751 00:33:49,750 --> 00:33:53,730 to help you get your brother's inquest reopened, 752 00:33:53,730 --> 00:33:55,610 you know, get in contact. 753 00:33:55,610 --> 00:33:58,573 And he basically, you know, said use the remains. 754 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:01,533 It's a big part. 755 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,520 So we had a death certificate issued 756 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,100 towards the end of October. 757 00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:12,450 And then around December, I remember both the press, 758 00:34:12,450 --> 00:34:15,370 but also the police liaison officers, 759 00:34:15,370 --> 00:34:18,070 telling us that we were very, very unlikely 760 00:34:18,070 --> 00:34:19,980 to get any remains of Geoff 761 00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:22,820 because bodies had been vaporized. 762 00:34:22,820 --> 00:34:24,180 Which is, you know, in hindsight, 763 00:34:24,180 --> 00:34:25,950 it's a really strange term to use. 764 00:34:25,950 --> 00:34:29,440 It was actually from the chief medical examiner. 765 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:31,410 - There's literally no trace. 766 00:34:31,410 --> 00:34:33,533 A significant number of people. 767 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,713 It's utterly, utterly horrifying. 768 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,520 - Obviously plenty bodies had been found, 769 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,940 but I think due to the degree of fragmentation 770 00:34:43,940 --> 00:34:44,790 and all the rest of it, 771 00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:47,450 and obviously what they knew they had. 772 00:34:47,450 --> 00:34:52,430 I think it was a day before mom's birthday in June 773 00:34:52,430 --> 00:34:54,970 and I think she got a call from, you know, 774 00:34:54,970 --> 00:34:56,343 our police liaison officer. 775 00:34:57,350 --> 00:34:59,630 Some of his remains had been identified. 776 00:34:59,630 --> 00:35:01,961 And the, the piece in question was 777 00:35:01,961 --> 00:35:03,839 a piece of Geoff's collarbone. 778 00:35:03,839 --> 00:35:06,540 - And I thought Geoff is having a laugh on us. 779 00:35:06,540 --> 00:35:09,790 When he was six months, we went on motor rail, 780 00:35:09,790 --> 00:35:12,060 long story, but it jerked 781 00:35:12,060 --> 00:35:14,280 and he was thrown on the ground at six months old. 782 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,300 He had a green fracture. 783 00:35:16,300 --> 00:35:18,827 All right, don't forget my broken collarbone 784 00:35:18,827 --> 00:35:20,720 when I was six months old. 785 00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:22,850 - But you know, it went from an undertaker in the States, 786 00:35:22,850 --> 00:35:27,080 it then got delivered to an undertaker in the UK 787 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:28,630 and then it was released to us. 788 00:35:30,056 --> 00:35:31,440 It was in a little casket. 789 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,810 I didn't want to do with it and so for quite a few years, 790 00:35:35,810 --> 00:35:37,580 it just sat outside my office 791 00:35:37,580 --> 00:35:39,390 on the top floor of my house. 792 00:35:39,390 --> 00:35:43,150 In 2004, mom got another call from the police, 793 00:35:43,150 --> 00:35:47,010 and this time three of his remains had been identified. 794 00:35:47,010 --> 00:35:50,340 They were small bone fragments. 795 00:35:50,340 --> 00:35:55,130 I remember one was from his thigh bone, but they were small. 796 00:35:55,130 --> 00:35:56,870 And so we now we had four. 797 00:35:56,870 --> 00:36:01,442 - Another lot came over and that actually was his scalp. 798 00:36:01,442 --> 00:36:02,450 - A bit of his scalp, a bit of his face, 799 00:36:02,450 --> 00:36:07,450 a bit of his jaw, his ear, just, you know, recognizable. 800 00:36:08,940 --> 00:36:12,500 - It wasn't burnt because my fear was that, you know, 801 00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:13,520 to be in the flames... 802 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,740 We were told by the police liaison 803 00:36:18,860 --> 00:36:20,840 that there was good chance that he could 804 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,510 just be vaporized or whatever the term is 805 00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:25,383 when there's just ash. 806 00:36:25,383 --> 00:36:27,313 - It's in the World Trade Center, sir, 807 00:36:27,313 --> 00:36:28,942 on the 106th floor. 808 00:36:28,942 --> 00:36:30,511 There is no injuries, but the people are trapped. 809 00:36:30,511 --> 00:36:33,178 They don't have air. - We got it. 810 00:36:35,620 --> 00:36:38,980 - So the very first inquest was here 811 00:36:38,980 --> 00:36:41,350 at the West London Coroner's Court. 812 00:36:41,350 --> 00:36:44,770 And anyway, out of the 67 British victims, 813 00:36:44,770 --> 00:36:47,420 10 had actually been identified. 814 00:36:47,420 --> 00:36:49,410 They basically created 10 different inquests, 815 00:36:49,410 --> 00:36:53,140 but it's like a joint inquest or inquiry that they held. 816 00:36:53,140 --> 00:36:55,720 Only two of the 10 victims 817 00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:57,950 were represented by family members. 818 00:36:57,950 --> 00:37:00,800 At the time, I didn't know that all of attending inquests 819 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,970 were done in an hour and 45. 820 00:37:02,970 --> 00:37:03,880 I've listened to the audio, 821 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,270 I've got the actual transcripts, the official transcript. 822 00:37:06,270 --> 00:37:07,700 And they spent probably no more than about 823 00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:10,560 three or four minutes talking about my brother's life 824 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,260 and what was found. 825 00:37:12,260 --> 00:37:14,610 And it seemed incredibly short that, you know, 826 00:37:14,610 --> 00:37:19,580 that's his moment of an inquiry and justice 827 00:37:19,580 --> 00:37:22,450 into the events surrounding his death. 828 00:37:22,450 --> 00:37:24,190 After the inquest, a couple of weeks later, 829 00:37:24,190 --> 00:37:26,910 I think mom just got a formal letter, which is, you know, 830 00:37:26,910 --> 00:37:29,130 it's basically the conclusion that the coroner drew. 831 00:37:29,130 --> 00:37:33,870 The impact into the North Tower of American Airlines 11 832 00:37:33,870 --> 00:37:36,630 caused the subsequent collapse of the building 833 00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:38,130 and that's how my brother died. 834 00:37:38,130 --> 00:37:39,620 - The inquests were held at a time 835 00:37:39,620 --> 00:37:41,380 when all the families would still have been 836 00:37:41,380 --> 00:37:44,380 in the stunned disbelief inability to accept 837 00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:47,310 all the different psychological states that you're in, 838 00:37:47,310 --> 00:37:49,420 so it's like, yeah, get this done, 839 00:37:49,420 --> 00:37:53,280 sweep it under the carpet, close that chapter and move on. 840 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,397 - Eight years ago, my brother had an inquest here 841 00:37:57,260 --> 00:37:59,060 and you know, I didn't attend. 842 00:37:59,060 --> 00:38:01,930 And it's kind of weird standing outside the building now 843 00:38:01,930 --> 00:38:05,410 that possibly, hopefully, within two years, 844 00:38:05,410 --> 00:38:07,940 I'm actually going to be inside that building 845 00:38:07,940 --> 00:38:10,550 attending his reopened request. 846 00:38:10,550 --> 00:38:13,150 So if all things are considered, it's not political, 847 00:38:13,150 --> 00:38:13,983 it's not anything else. 848 00:38:13,983 --> 00:38:15,850 It's just purely looking at the evidence 849 00:38:15,850 --> 00:38:17,970 and the new evidence and the lack of inquiry 850 00:38:17,970 --> 00:38:19,200 into that evidence. 851 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,740 - So much new information has come to light 852 00:38:21,740 --> 00:38:25,530 since the inquest, not withstanding Geoff's own remains, 853 00:38:25,530 --> 00:38:27,140 which weren't available, 854 00:38:27,140 --> 00:38:32,050 and witness testimony about what happened on 9/11 . 855 00:38:32,050 --> 00:38:35,500 - Yes, I would like that to be submitted 856 00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:37,467 and the attorney general to make a decision on that 857 00:38:37,467 --> 00:38:41,010 and I think really with all the information that we have, 858 00:38:41,010 --> 00:38:43,440 I think it should go through. 859 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,110 - We've got way over what's required to basically 860 00:38:48,110 --> 00:38:50,370 get the authority granted by the attorney general. 861 00:38:50,370 --> 00:38:54,000 - I'm sure Matt might have more faith in British justice, 862 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,820 but I'm afraid I'm pretty cynical. 863 00:38:56,820 --> 00:39:00,570 - But if you don't try, you don't succeed. 864 00:39:00,570 --> 00:39:02,170 - So I'd say an awful lot is down 865 00:39:02,170 --> 00:39:05,000 to the luck of the draw as to whether 866 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,190 Matt goes before an individual who cares about the facts. 867 00:39:08,190 --> 00:39:10,750 You know, there's absolutely no reason in law 868 00:39:10,750 --> 00:39:11,900 why Matt shouldn't win. 869 00:39:19,620 --> 00:39:20,780 - My name is Drew DePalma 870 00:39:20,780 --> 00:39:22,340 and I'm the director of operations 871 00:39:22,340 --> 00:39:24,910 for an engineering firm in New Jersey. 872 00:39:24,910 --> 00:39:27,740 My mom Jean Caviasco-DePalma, was killed in 9/11 873 00:39:27,740 --> 00:39:30,757 and she was in the World Trade Center Tower One. 874 00:39:30,757 --> 00:39:32,700 "I write this letter to support the application 875 00:39:32,700 --> 00:39:35,260 of the Campbell family and briefly to explain 876 00:39:35,260 --> 00:39:37,610 why I believe that further investigation 877 00:39:37,610 --> 00:39:41,080 into the cause of the collapse of World Trade Center One 878 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,780 is not only worthwhile but necessary 879 00:39:43,780 --> 00:39:46,130 because the ruling that the towers collapsed due to fire 880 00:39:46,130 --> 00:39:48,880 makes them the first and only skyscrapers in the world 881 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:50,440 to do so by that cause. 882 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,990 The first and only of anything deserves extreme scrutiny, 883 00:39:52,990 --> 00:39:54,510 especially given the cloud of doubt 884 00:39:54,510 --> 00:39:56,840 surrounding all the events that transpired before, 885 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,960 during, and after that 9/11 day." 886 00:40:15,833 --> 00:40:17,220 We're at the 9/11 Memorial. 887 00:40:17,220 --> 00:40:18,710 This is the town I live in. 888 00:40:18,710 --> 00:40:21,650 I didn't live here when my mom passed, 889 00:40:21,650 --> 00:40:22,970 but it's a nice remembrance 890 00:40:22,970 --> 00:40:25,050 and I'm glad my town has this 891 00:40:25,050 --> 00:40:27,920 for all the people that were affected in this town. 892 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,670 I've been part of the town's parks committee 893 00:40:29,670 --> 00:40:32,190 for about a year now, and we actually just ran a fundraiser 894 00:40:32,190 --> 00:40:34,070 to help raise some funds to upgrade 895 00:40:34,070 --> 00:40:35,630 the playground equipment. 896 00:40:35,630 --> 00:40:36,860 There's a balance beam there now 897 00:40:36,860 --> 00:40:38,910 that kind of stretches the playground. 898 00:40:38,910 --> 00:40:41,890 You know, you see benches all around the park, 899 00:40:41,890 --> 00:40:42,723 pretty much everywhere. 900 00:40:42,723 --> 00:40:44,650 That's what most people donate. 901 00:40:44,650 --> 00:40:47,020 But I think we have enough benches. 902 00:40:47,020 --> 00:40:49,940 I want something, you know, kids can enjoy, 903 00:40:49,940 --> 00:40:52,060 - So Drew doesn't really talk about his mother 904 00:40:52,060 --> 00:40:54,500 as much as I'd hope. 905 00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:57,900 We met in '04 and he told me a little bit about everything, 906 00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:01,510 but we only really talk about it on the anniversary. 907 00:41:01,510 --> 00:41:03,990 But this is something that he has been involved in 908 00:41:03,990 --> 00:41:05,120 in the last two or three years 909 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,110 and I feel like this is closure 910 00:41:07,110 --> 00:41:08,680 and almost a catharsis for him. 911 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,160 - I started going down the rabbit hole, 912 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,360 doing a bunch of research. 913 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,100 I was fine, I got a little angry for a little bit at a time, 914 00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:17,573 but now I'm pretty much at peace with everything. 915 00:41:19,890 --> 00:41:23,740 - Drew has, as you know, lost his mother 916 00:41:23,740 --> 00:41:25,090 before he was fully grown. 917 00:41:25,090 --> 00:41:28,130 He's an example of someone who's been able 918 00:41:28,130 --> 00:41:31,630 to weather the loss at a very inconvenient time 919 00:41:31,630 --> 00:41:33,810 that was too soon and somehow managed 920 00:41:33,810 --> 00:41:38,393 to make himself an adult and a father and a husband. 921 00:41:41,410 --> 00:41:44,600 - This picture was taken in Miami, Florida. 922 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,820 It was Jean's 40th birthday weekend. 923 00:41:47,820 --> 00:41:48,653 It was a lot of fun. 924 00:41:48,653 --> 00:41:51,590 It was something that we always planned to do 925 00:41:51,590 --> 00:41:54,030 when Jean turned 40 and we actually did it. 926 00:41:54,030 --> 00:41:57,780 So my husband calligraphed this for me. 927 00:41:57,780 --> 00:42:02,090 It is actually something that Jean sent, an email. 928 00:42:02,090 --> 00:42:04,960 She didn't write it, but it was an email that she sent, 929 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,960 she found, called From Me to You to several people 930 00:42:10,570 --> 00:42:13,780 minutes before the towers were struck. 931 00:42:13,780 --> 00:42:15,320 She was trying to get her life together 932 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,530 and this was maybe something that 933 00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:22,040 she was reading periodically to help her, you know, 934 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,190 reevaluate her life and... 935 00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:27,410 - Divorce was a pretty rough time for my mom. 936 00:42:27,410 --> 00:42:28,840 It hit her really hard. 937 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,513 Just emotionally and physically. 938 00:42:31,350 --> 00:42:32,730 But I felt at that point, at 9/11, 939 00:42:32,730 --> 00:42:34,900 she was actually in good physical health. 940 00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:36,240 She started working out more. 941 00:42:36,240 --> 00:42:37,500 I guess we have big life changes, 942 00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:39,040 you go one way or the other. 943 00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,600 She was exercising more. She loved biking. 944 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,750 So she was by bicycle riding. 945 00:42:43,750 --> 00:42:45,413 She was losing weight. 946 00:42:45,413 --> 00:42:47,310 She was definitely happier, for sure. 947 00:42:47,310 --> 00:42:49,530 So that's kind of a bright side that, you know. 948 00:42:49,530 --> 00:42:50,660 I always hope when I go, you know, 949 00:42:50,660 --> 00:42:55,483 it's at a peak of happiness, as opposed to the latter. 950 00:43:01,630 --> 00:43:03,573 We got chickens in this past year. 951 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:06,710 They provide us with breakfast every morning. 952 00:43:06,710 --> 00:43:08,333 The kids love handling them. 953 00:43:10,330 --> 00:43:12,380 Some chickens are more social than others. 954 00:43:12,380 --> 00:43:13,213 Probably... 955 00:43:13,213 --> 00:43:14,385 Oh, no. 956 00:43:14,385 --> 00:43:15,885 So I couldn't be happier here. 957 00:43:18,510 --> 00:43:19,860 They definitely have different personalities, though. 958 00:43:19,860 --> 00:43:22,330 Chickens aren't as dumb as you would think. 959 00:43:22,330 --> 00:43:23,580 They actually understand, 960 00:43:26,115 --> 00:43:27,520 up to like 20 words or something, I read. 961 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,770 I don't know if that's true or not, but... 962 00:43:29,770 --> 00:43:30,603 I like animals. 963 00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:42,450 - So Jean's name is right here. 964 00:43:43,460 --> 00:43:44,950 - She worked in the city. 965 00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:47,213 She was usually out of the house before I even woke up 966 00:43:47,213 --> 00:43:49,650 because I drove myself to school at that point. 967 00:43:49,650 --> 00:43:51,410 And then she didn't get home usually until late 968 00:43:51,410 --> 00:43:53,000 and when she came home, I was out with my friends 969 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,460 and then we saw each other for dinner 970 00:43:55,460 --> 00:43:57,730 and then I'd be out until whenever. 971 00:43:57,730 --> 00:43:59,600 She was probably asleep by the time I got home. 972 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:01,760 Being a kid, you want to be out doing stuff, 973 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,310 and like I said, she was commuting to the city every day. 974 00:44:04,310 --> 00:44:07,370 - You know, I had not seen this memorial before 975 00:44:07,370 --> 00:44:10,090 and I was surprised how immense it is 976 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,070 and exactly from what I read points right to 977 00:44:15,070 --> 00:44:16,897 where the Towers stood. 978 00:44:16,897 --> 00:44:17,956 - We got a plane crashed 979 00:44:17,956 --> 00:44:19,921 into the World Trade Center. 980 00:44:19,921 --> 00:44:21,911 Are you aware of that? 981 00:44:21,911 --> 00:44:23,747 - The World Trade Center in Manhattan? 982 00:44:23,747 --> 00:44:26,140 - World Trade Center in Manhattan. 983 00:44:26,140 --> 00:44:27,800 - Just another normal work day. 984 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,550 Drop Marissa off at my parents' house and got to work. 985 00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:34,763 I don't remember the exact time, 986 00:44:35,670 --> 00:44:38,500 but my principal came knocking on my door 987 00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:42,340 and took me into the hallway and said that my mother 988 00:44:42,340 --> 00:44:43,943 had called and... 989 00:44:47,570 --> 00:44:49,800 Wanted me to go to her house. 990 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:51,620 - So I was walking through the halls 991 00:44:51,620 --> 00:44:53,240 and there's just a lot of commotion going on. 992 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:55,540 I had no idea what was happening 993 00:44:55,540 --> 00:44:58,270 and then they called, I guess like a meeting 994 00:44:58,270 --> 00:45:00,390 for the whole school into the gym, 995 00:45:00,390 --> 00:45:02,950 and they kind of explained what happened. 996 00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:05,200 - The principal explained that planes flew 997 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,162 into the buildings that she had worked in. 998 00:45:22,250 --> 00:45:23,300 - My mom works there. 999 00:45:24,337 --> 00:45:26,130 So it's just like everyone else that day. 1000 00:45:26,130 --> 00:45:28,630 If anyone knew anyone that worked there or around there, 1001 00:45:28,630 --> 00:45:29,960 they were on the phone. 1002 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:33,680 - And so I kind of went into numb mode, I call it. 1003 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,080 You know, I just like, didn't have any feelings. 1004 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:38,900 And she asked if someone should drive me home 1005 00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:41,920 and I said, no, no, I'll go. 1006 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,880 And I drove home just totally focused. 1007 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:46,700 And when I got there, you know, 1008 00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:49,719 you just keep seeing those same pictures. 1009 00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,570 That's all that we had at the time was those pictures 1010 00:45:51,570 --> 00:45:55,420 of the planes flying into those buildings. 1011 00:45:55,420 --> 00:45:57,080 - And we just, we went home 1012 00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:58,900 and I wasn't a smoker back then, 1013 00:45:58,900 --> 00:46:02,160 but that day I sure as heck had a cigarette. 1014 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,963 - I called their high school and they had already left. 1015 00:46:18,210 --> 00:46:20,630 I have not been up there. 1016 00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:24,560 I've only been to the memorial inside 1017 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,480 and I've been to the waterfalls, 1018 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,900 but I have not been up into the tower. 1019 00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:31,480 You know, 'cause after 20 years, 1020 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,950 you come to a place in your mind where you're, you know, 1021 00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:38,170 not necessarily at peace, but you've kind, of me personally, 1022 00:46:38,170 --> 00:46:42,180 I've kind of put it in itS little pocket, you know? 1023 00:46:42,180 --> 00:46:45,490 And then every once in a while something happens 1024 00:46:45,490 --> 00:46:48,420 or, you know, someone says something 1025 00:46:48,420 --> 00:46:51,150 and it kind of brings you back to a little bit 1026 00:46:51,150 --> 00:46:54,380 of that place where you don't always want to be. 1027 00:46:54,380 --> 00:46:57,490 The next day, though, my two brothers and my sister 1028 00:46:57,490 --> 00:46:58,950 went into the city. 1029 00:46:58,950 --> 00:47:02,000 I stayed home with my parents and Marissa 1030 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,580 and they took pictures of Jean, and, you know, 1031 00:47:04,580 --> 00:47:07,500 people were just trying to find people 1032 00:47:07,500 --> 00:47:10,760 that could find their loved. 1033 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,860 - Nothing was ever found of my mother, so, 1034 00:47:14,318 --> 00:47:15,410 had nothing to go on as far as 1035 00:47:15,410 --> 00:47:18,078 physical evidence for her, personally. 1036 00:47:18,078 --> 00:47:19,460 And I was probably the most optimistic person 1037 00:47:19,460 --> 00:47:20,293 in my family. 1038 00:47:20,293 --> 00:47:24,330 I was like, you know, she's gonna come out of it. 1039 00:47:24,330 --> 00:47:25,470 We'll find her eventually. 1040 00:47:25,470 --> 00:47:26,717 Even weeks after that 1041 00:47:26,717 --> 00:47:28,710 and even years after I was like, you know, who knows, 1042 00:47:28,710 --> 00:47:32,520 maybe she was in a coma or she wandered off somewhere. 1043 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,963 I think with a weekend, my uncle, 1044 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,820 who is her brother, pretty much, you know, 1045 00:47:39,820 --> 00:47:42,850 he analyzed where she worked, where her office was. 1046 00:47:42,850 --> 00:47:45,263 - She was on the hundredth floor, 1047 00:47:45,263 --> 00:47:47,730 and there was no way that she could have... 1048 00:47:47,730 --> 00:47:49,990 - He just didn't want me hold up false hope. 1049 00:47:49,990 --> 00:47:51,130 You know, pretty much gave it to me straight. 1050 00:47:51,130 --> 00:47:52,970 It's like, you know, the chances of her 1051 00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:54,883 making it out were pretty slim, 1052 00:47:56,720 --> 00:48:01,420 so that was pretty disappointing to say the least. 1053 00:48:01,420 --> 00:48:04,720 He could have let me hold on to some hope. 1054 00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:07,777 But no, I always like people to give it to me straight. 1055 00:48:07,777 --> 00:48:09,440 I like to do that for other people, 1056 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,063 so I expect the same in return. 1057 00:48:12,002 --> 00:48:14,500 - I mean, I have to say when I'm with my niece and nephew, 1058 00:48:14,500 --> 00:48:18,470 Drew and Jamie, Jean's kids, it's a comfort, you know? 1059 00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:19,950 She's there. 1060 00:48:19,950 --> 00:48:24,350 I mean, she's everywhere, but she's there, with those kids. 1061 00:48:24,350 --> 00:48:28,973 I went to the 10 year memorial when it was 10 years ago. 1062 00:48:31,010 --> 00:48:36,010 Didn't really do anything for me as far as helping me... 1063 00:48:38,780 --> 00:48:43,150 Grieve because I've already, you know, done that. 1064 00:48:43,150 --> 00:48:47,580 So I don't need to go to any physical space 1065 00:48:47,580 --> 00:48:52,580 to look at that horror again and again and again. 1066 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:58,210 You know, I kind of just deal in my own way by myself 1067 00:48:58,210 --> 00:49:01,763 or with my family or whatever it happens to be. 1068 00:49:04,340 --> 00:49:08,190 But yeah, I'm not interested in doing those things. 1069 00:49:08,190 --> 00:49:09,893 The 10th anniversary was enough. 1070 00:49:10,780 --> 00:49:14,340 It's just amazing to me that that, 1071 00:49:14,340 --> 00:49:17,460 and I know that's the whole crux of this whole thing. 1072 00:49:17,460 --> 00:49:21,177 Like, how does that just, you know... 1073 00:49:21,177 --> 00:49:25,093 How do those buildings perfectly fall? 1074 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:28,252 You know... 1075 00:49:28,252 --> 00:49:29,520 - So yeah, it just strikes me as odd 1076 00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,170 that three buildings within a couple hours 1077 00:49:32,170 --> 00:49:33,593 of each other all fell down. 1078 00:49:34,450 --> 00:49:37,090 So it seems like something else was going on. 1079 00:49:37,090 --> 00:49:40,987 - And Drew is a man on a mission right now. 1080 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,410 He wants all the answers. 1081 00:49:44,410 --> 00:49:47,010 - And there was a lot of stuff that didn't get analyzed 1082 00:49:47,010 --> 00:49:48,280 correctly, in my opinion. 1083 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:49,560 I mean, if they had done their job, 1084 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,160 I probably wouldn't be here now. 1085 00:49:52,693 --> 00:49:53,590 You know shooting this documentary 1086 00:49:53,590 --> 00:49:55,803 and trying to help get a new investigation. 1087 00:49:56,690 --> 00:49:59,020 - I think we owe, as a country, 1088 00:49:59,020 --> 00:50:03,480 we owe it to the poor people that have passed away 1089 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,370 and their families and the world 1090 00:50:05,370 --> 00:50:07,450 to find out what really happened here 1091 00:50:07,450 --> 00:50:09,863 because it's not just, you know, 1092 00:50:10,710 --> 00:50:13,813 planes hit, book closed kind of thing. 1093 00:50:23,890 --> 00:50:25,080 - From the time I was a little kid, 1094 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:25,927 I was building things 1095 00:50:25,927 --> 00:50:27,970 and I was always trying to build something 1096 00:50:27,970 --> 00:50:30,190 My mother used to say, if it can be taken apart, 1097 00:50:30,190 --> 00:50:32,380 Bill will take it apart 'cause that's what he does. 1098 00:50:32,380 --> 00:50:35,228 He wants to know how things work. 1099 00:50:35,228 --> 00:50:37,070 And I pulled a lot of things apart. 1100 00:50:37,070 --> 00:50:40,530 My name is Bill Brinnier and I am a architect. 1101 00:50:40,530 --> 00:50:43,670 I've been an architect since 1984, 1102 00:50:43,670 --> 00:50:46,105 but I've done architecture all my life. 1103 00:50:46,105 --> 00:50:47,600 You know, I grew up right around here 1104 00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,700 and here, in this house and I must've built 1105 00:50:51,700 --> 00:50:53,620 20 forts in the woods. 1106 00:50:53,620 --> 00:50:56,050 And the last one I built, I think I was 15 years old. 1107 00:50:56,050 --> 00:50:57,750 It was framed properly. 1108 00:50:57,750 --> 00:50:59,920 It was completely wired for electricity. 1109 00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:03,790 I used I used barbed wire to run electricity 1110 00:51:03,790 --> 00:51:06,160 from the house up to to my tree house, 1111 00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,670 which was 100 yards up in the woods. 1112 00:51:08,670 --> 00:51:10,940 I applied to Pratt and I got in. 1113 00:51:10,940 --> 00:51:14,700 That January, I moved down to New York and went to Pratt. 1114 00:51:14,700 --> 00:51:16,700 And it was interesting because when I got there, 1115 00:51:16,700 --> 00:51:19,340 the World Trade Center was under construction. 1116 00:51:19,340 --> 00:51:21,870 And from my dorm out in Brooklyn, 1117 00:51:21,870 --> 00:51:24,330 you could see the Two Towers coming up. 1118 00:51:24,330 --> 00:51:25,790 The World Trade Center buildings, 1119 00:51:25,790 --> 00:51:27,260 each building was compared, 1120 00:51:27,260 --> 00:51:29,910 somebody from the New York Times I think said 1121 00:51:29,910 --> 00:51:32,140 the World Trade Center looks like the box 1122 00:51:32,140 --> 00:51:34,680 that the Empire State Building came in, 1123 00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,790 but it was fascinating and they were always lit up, 1124 00:51:36,790 --> 00:51:39,330 even at night and there was cranes on top 1125 00:51:39,330 --> 00:51:40,740 and there was such activity. 1126 00:51:40,740 --> 00:51:41,573 So it was fun. 1127 00:51:41,573 --> 00:51:43,110 You know, we got to watch that go up. 1128 00:51:43,110 --> 00:51:46,900 Little did we know what was waiting for us in the future. 1129 00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:49,463 - What's striking about Bill is that 1130 00:51:49,463 --> 00:51:51,910 even though he lost his best friend 1131 00:51:51,910 --> 00:51:53,640 and went through some tough times, 1132 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:55,430 he was fortunate enough to be able to pull out of it. 1133 00:51:55,430 --> 00:51:56,840 Not everybody does. 1134 00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:58,660 - You know, I met Frank. 1135 00:51:58,660 --> 00:52:01,180 I met Frank de Martini at Pratt. 1136 00:52:01,180 --> 00:52:03,040 He was one of the first guys I met. 1137 00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,680 For some reason, I just fell in with him 1138 00:52:05,680 --> 00:52:08,490 and the two of us really, really hit it off. 1139 00:52:08,490 --> 00:52:10,670 We were popular in the community. 1140 00:52:10,670 --> 00:52:14,410 Lots of people knew us and work just came out of the sky. 1141 00:52:14,410 --> 00:52:18,320 You know, we had lived through the bombing of 1993, 1142 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,450 which was actually Frank's entry into the whole realm 1143 00:52:22,450 --> 00:52:23,700 of the World Trade Center. 1144 00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:27,000 Frank kind of walked me through what that damage was 1145 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,830 and how robust the structure of the building was. 1146 00:52:30,830 --> 00:52:34,110 There were redundancies beyond belief. 1147 00:52:34,110 --> 00:52:36,120 He was a big fan of the History Channel 1148 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,170 and he said why hasn't there been a history 1149 00:52:38,170 --> 00:52:40,620 of the World Trade Center on the History Channel? 1150 00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:43,190 That's gotta be something. 1151 00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:45,910 So he, I can't remember the woman's name, 1152 00:52:45,910 --> 00:52:48,097 but he contacted this woman and they worked 1153 00:52:48,097 --> 00:52:50,320 and worked and worked and they finally produced it. 1154 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,960 - The building probably could sustain 1155 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:57,960 multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure 1156 00:52:59,240 --> 00:53:03,640 is like the mosquito netting on your screen door. 1157 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,800 And the jet plane is just a pencil 1158 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,350 puncturing that screen netting. 1159 00:53:09,350 --> 00:53:10,183 - Wow. 1160 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:13,030 Good to hear his voice. 1161 00:53:13,030 --> 00:53:15,280 When he made that statement, 1162 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,660 he was working for Leslie E. Robertson, 1163 00:53:18,660 --> 00:53:21,210 one of the designers, one of the structural engineers 1164 00:53:21,210 --> 00:53:22,630 who designed that structure. 1165 00:53:22,630 --> 00:53:24,830 He had, believe me, Frank was as bad as me 1166 00:53:24,830 --> 00:53:27,670 when came to understanding how things work. 1167 00:53:27,670 --> 00:53:30,960 So, you know, I know he had many conversations 1168 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:34,010 with Leslie about how the building went together. 1169 00:53:34,010 --> 00:53:36,840 You know, how it was designed 1170 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,840 to withstand all manner of loads, of dynamic loads. 1171 00:53:42,820 --> 00:53:44,990 That's what they call a plane hitting the building, 1172 00:53:44,990 --> 00:53:46,540 or a wind hitting the building. 1173 00:53:52,678 --> 00:53:56,182 - My kids were asking me about 9/11 1174 00:53:56,182 --> 00:53:58,970 and it's really hard to talk about it and explain it. 1175 00:53:58,970 --> 00:54:01,870 And I was curious to what they'd pick up on, 1176 00:54:01,870 --> 00:54:04,593 you know, and is it a scary thing? 1177 00:54:05,650 --> 00:54:07,925 - I can't believe it's almost 20 years. 1178 00:54:07,925 --> 00:54:10,450 - I can't either. - It seems like yesterday. 1179 00:54:10,450 --> 00:54:13,260 I was not in a good place in my life. 1180 00:54:13,260 --> 00:54:15,360 I had spent some time with Frank 1181 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:16,863 and that was the good part. 1182 00:54:17,834 --> 00:54:21,210 I had lost my job and my marriage was not in a good place. 1183 00:54:21,210 --> 00:54:22,910 You know, I just things were... 1184 00:54:22,910 --> 00:54:24,260 I was down and out. 1185 00:54:24,260 --> 00:54:26,700 There was some excitement in my life, 1186 00:54:26,700 --> 00:54:28,710 and I was nervous because Frank and I 1187 00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:30,560 were about to go into business together. 1188 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,760 And it was funny because Frank, for the longest time, 1189 00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:35,760 had tried to get me to help him 1190 00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,300 get out of the World Trade Center. 1191 00:54:38,300 --> 00:54:42,230 You know, my day to day life was, was going down 1192 00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:45,910 to this high rise in in Long Branch, New Jersey 1193 00:54:45,910 --> 00:54:47,900 and working on an apartment. 1194 00:54:47,900 --> 00:54:50,530 And, you know, Frank was going to work 1195 00:54:50,530 --> 00:54:51,440 at the Trade Center. 1196 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,780 You know, I was an early riser and I got up at six o'clock. 1197 00:54:54,780 --> 00:54:58,270 It was about a hour and a half, hour and 45 minute drive, 1198 00:54:58,270 --> 00:55:00,543 and as I came around the corner, 1199 00:55:02,223 --> 00:55:04,940 off of route 80 and onto I-95, 1200 00:55:04,940 --> 00:55:08,000 that's where the World Trade Center comes into view 1201 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,070 and the North Tower looked like a chimney. 1202 00:55:11,070 --> 00:55:14,460 So I dialed up Frank and it went to voicemail 1203 00:55:14,460 --> 00:55:16,070 and I dialed him again and it went to voicemail. 1204 00:55:16,070 --> 00:55:17,640 It just kept, I couldn't get him. 1205 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:19,220 - We were supposed to have dinner with Frank. 1206 00:55:19,220 --> 00:55:21,090 - I remember. - The three of us. 1207 00:55:21,090 --> 00:55:22,200 - Yeah. 1208 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:23,033 - We ere supposed to have dinner. 1209 00:55:23,033 --> 00:55:24,560 - Our father-daughter dinner was going to be 1210 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,940 our father-daughter-uncle dinner. 1211 00:55:26,940 --> 00:55:27,773 I panicked. 1212 00:55:27,773 --> 00:55:31,750 I just continued south and went to Long Branch, 1213 00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:33,370 went to the job. 1214 00:55:33,370 --> 00:55:36,780 When they told me that the South tower had collapsed, 1215 00:55:36,780 --> 00:55:38,570 I was shocked. 1216 00:55:38,570 --> 00:55:40,390 I was like, that's impossible. 1217 00:55:40,390 --> 00:55:41,223 - Yeah. 1218 00:55:41,223 --> 00:55:42,989 - Get ready for the big one. 1219 00:55:42,989 --> 00:55:43,959 - The tower just collapsed. 1220 00:55:43,959 --> 00:55:44,982 - The whole thing collapsed? 1221 00:55:44,982 --> 00:55:46,512 - Yeah, it's collapsed. 1222 00:55:46,512 --> 00:55:48,255 - What do you mean the whole thing just collapsed? 1223 00:55:48,255 --> 00:55:49,473 - It collapsed, I'm watching it live. 1224 00:55:49,473 --> 00:55:52,313 - I didn't know what to think of it. I really didn't. 1225 00:55:53,406 --> 00:55:55,350 You know, we all went in, everybody went into shock. 1226 00:55:55,350 --> 00:55:58,080 It was just the most bizarre... 1227 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,780 I mean, it was, it was like an out-of-body experience. 1228 00:56:03,820 --> 00:56:06,470 I was just consumed with worry about Frank, you know? 1229 00:56:06,470 --> 00:56:08,320 And I didn't even think about Nicole. 1230 00:56:11,795 --> 00:56:14,230 - Hello, you've reach Nicole de Martini. 1231 00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:15,260 Please leave a message. 1232 00:56:15,260 --> 00:56:17,190 - Hi, Nicole. It's Bill. 1233 00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:19,360 Hey, listen, I'm up in Fort Greene Park 1234 00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,220 trying to find Frank's bench and his trees, 1235 00:56:22,220 --> 00:56:25,100 and there's a bench nearby, but it's dedicated to people 1236 00:56:25,100 --> 00:56:27,150 who passed away from COVID-19. 1237 00:56:27,150 --> 00:56:28,730 Thanks, Nicole. 1238 00:56:28,730 --> 00:56:32,540 And he used to live right up the street at 11-A, 1239 00:56:32,540 --> 00:56:34,420 South Elliot Place. 1240 00:56:34,420 --> 00:56:37,200 But we planted trees just like these. 1241 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,990 They were just like these, you know, 1242 00:56:38,990 --> 00:56:40,390 because there was nothing left 1243 00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:43,480 of the people that perished, you know? 1244 00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:48,390 I think Bobby McIlvaine, at least they got his body. 1245 00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:50,240 You know, he was one of the very few. 1246 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:53,410 Most people just disappeared. 1247 00:56:53,410 --> 00:56:55,500 From the Prison Ship Martyr's Monument, 1248 00:56:55,500 --> 00:56:57,550 when you stand at the base of the monument, 1249 00:56:57,550 --> 00:56:58,910 you can look out- 1250 00:56:58,910 --> 00:56:59,743 There she is. 1251 00:57:02,140 --> 00:57:03,790 Hi, Nicole. 1252 00:57:03,790 --> 00:57:05,550 - Hi, Bill. How are you? 1253 00:57:05,550 --> 00:57:06,540 - I'm good. How are you? 1254 00:57:06,540 --> 00:57:07,650 - We didn't put in a bench. 1255 00:57:07,650 --> 00:57:10,120 They didn't allow us. They were very strict. 1256 00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:12,700 They were like, you can't put in a bench. 1257 00:57:12,700 --> 00:57:14,840 - Do you remember exactly when that was 1258 00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:18,190 that we did that planting for Frank's memorial? 1259 00:57:18,190 --> 00:57:19,560 - Maybe 2003. 1260 00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,690 - That's what I'm thinking, the spring of '03. 1261 00:57:21,690 --> 00:57:23,500 - Big pine trees that 1262 00:57:23,500 --> 00:57:26,320 are right next to the tennis court. 1263 00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:28,336 - Across the walk? 1264 00:57:28,336 --> 00:57:29,169 - Yeah. 1265 00:57:29,169 --> 00:57:30,002 - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1266 00:57:30,002 --> 00:57:31,060 I see them now. - Yeah. 1267 00:57:31,060 --> 00:57:33,500 - And they've planted some new, smaller ones now 1268 00:57:33,500 --> 00:57:35,730 that have fences around them. - Yes, exactly, yes. 1269 00:57:35,730 --> 00:57:39,270 Yes, so there are a few more that were planted later. 1270 00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:42,820 Right after that, but they really take good care of them. 1271 00:57:42,820 --> 00:57:43,653 - Yeah. 1272 00:57:43,653 --> 00:57:45,520 This is for Frank, too. 1273 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:46,360 Wow. 1274 00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:48,544 - Yeah, the crab apples were for Frank, too, but- 1275 00:57:48,544 --> 00:57:49,417 - It's got some fruit on it. 1276 00:57:49,417 --> 00:57:50,650 - Say hi to Shelly. 1277 00:57:50,650 --> 00:57:51,483 - I will. 1278 00:57:51,483 --> 00:57:53,920 Well, we're here, and this is it. 1279 00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,316 This crab apple is hers... 1280 00:57:56,316 --> 00:57:57,253 Or his. That pine is his. 1281 00:57:58,610 --> 00:58:01,956 And that spruce was one of them. 1282 00:58:01,956 --> 00:58:02,850 I mean, it's not everybody that can say 1283 00:58:02,850 --> 00:58:05,210 they got trees planted in one in New York City's 1284 00:58:05,210 --> 00:58:08,330 most famous parks in their honor. 1285 00:58:08,330 --> 00:58:10,740 The guy that Nina was trying to convince 1286 00:58:10,740 --> 00:58:12,900 at the parks department was very strict. 1287 00:58:12,900 --> 00:58:16,700 He said Frederick Law Olmsted never designed the park 1288 00:58:16,700 --> 00:58:19,660 to have benches all over the place 1289 00:58:19,660 --> 00:58:21,150 and that doesn't make sense to me. 1290 00:58:21,150 --> 00:58:23,410 But anyway, it was the excuse that was given. 1291 00:58:23,410 --> 00:58:26,293 It's almost like the excuses that were given to, um, 1292 00:58:28,210 --> 00:58:32,580 to us as to what happened to those Towers. 1293 00:58:32,580 --> 00:58:33,990 Just excuses. 1294 00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:37,230 I didn't really start to think about the mechanics. 1295 00:58:37,230 --> 00:58:38,970 You know, here I am, the guy that likes 1296 00:58:38,970 --> 00:58:40,450 to know how things work. 1297 00:58:40,450 --> 00:58:44,200 I didn't really start to think about that for five years. 1298 00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:45,133 Straight ahead. 1299 00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,000 I'll never set foot in that Freedom Tower. 1300 00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,433 That's not my cup of tea. 1301 00:58:52,060 --> 00:58:55,313 I call it the blood building. 1302 00:58:56,236 --> 00:58:58,710 A lot of people died to put that there. 1303 00:58:58,710 --> 00:59:00,290 Unnecessarily. 1304 00:59:00,290 --> 00:59:05,220 But I took my books, I took my toys, I took my tools, 1305 00:59:05,220 --> 00:59:08,450 I took my grandfather clock and I took my car and I left. 1306 00:59:08,450 --> 00:59:10,200 You know, I came up here. 1307 00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:11,740 I put everything in storage 1308 00:59:11,740 --> 00:59:14,140 and I moved into this little cottage here 1309 00:59:14,140 --> 00:59:17,130 and didn't know what to do. 1310 00:59:17,130 --> 00:59:19,960 I didn't know what to do. 1311 00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,720 And this is where, in this cottage, 1312 00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:27,600 is where I found architects and engineers for 9/11 Truth. 1313 00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:32,370 And I look at it as this is what I do for Frank. 1314 00:59:32,370 --> 00:59:33,930 This is what, not just for me. 1315 00:59:33,930 --> 00:59:36,420 I mean, it's a lot for me and Frank is gone 1316 00:59:36,420 --> 00:59:37,570 and nothing's going to bring him back. 1317 00:59:37,570 --> 00:59:40,040 He's history. 1318 00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:44,550 You know, when those explosives tore that building apart, 1319 00:59:44,550 --> 00:59:46,490 it tore the people apart, too. 1320 00:59:46,490 --> 00:59:49,950 So the saving grace is that Frank didn't feel a thing. 1321 00:59:49,950 --> 00:59:51,663 You know, he just disappeared. 1322 00:59:52,635 --> 00:59:55,273 - Because so many people didn't get bodies, nothing. 1323 00:59:56,492 --> 00:59:58,360 And we actually got a full, not a full body, 1324 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,663 but we got a body to take home and bury. 1325 01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,263 And we, you know, we're so grateful for that. 1326 01:00:07,830 --> 01:00:09,950 Hundreds of parts they would get from the body. 1327 01:00:09,950 --> 01:00:11,740 And they just said I don't want it anymore. 1328 01:00:11,740 --> 01:00:12,890 We can't take this anymore. 1329 01:00:12,890 --> 01:00:14,760 They would get, you know, every week they get a call, 1330 01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:19,280 we found, you know, an elbow, we found a thumb or something. 1331 01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:21,580 And we have a relatively sound body 1332 01:00:21,580 --> 01:00:23,760 that we got to take home, and that, 1333 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,110 you know went home and buried him in a week. 1334 01:00:26,110 --> 01:00:28,330 So it was Tuesday, a week after 9/11 we buried him, 1335 01:00:28,330 --> 01:00:30,380 or it might have been sometime that week. 1336 01:00:31,430 --> 01:00:33,211 Our dogs are buried out there 1337 01:00:33,211 --> 01:00:36,430 so I go to Bobby, put the flowers out there 1338 01:00:36,430 --> 01:00:39,923 and that's, I've been doing that for 20 years now. 1339 01:00:46,100 --> 01:00:48,720 Oh good, they just cut the place. 1340 01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:49,810 - They what? They, yeah. 1341 01:00:49,810 --> 01:00:51,163 I can tell, really. 1342 01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:54,370 - Can you just move that? 1343 01:00:55,580 --> 01:00:56,820 - Hey, Bobby. 1344 01:00:56,820 --> 01:00:57,653 - Look at that. 1345 01:00:57,653 --> 01:00:59,360 They cleaned it up for us around the edges. 1346 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:01,910 - Yeah. Usually they leave the grass there. 1347 01:01:03,150 --> 01:01:05,070 He'd love the yellow and purple flowers. 1348 01:01:05,070 --> 01:01:06,390 - Yeah. 1349 01:01:06,390 --> 01:01:07,575 All right, I'm going to go up 1350 01:01:07,575 --> 01:01:08,640 and clean the bench, all right? 1351 01:01:08,640 --> 01:01:09,840 - I'm just going to sit. 1352 01:01:12,170 --> 01:01:14,630 - Not while I'm cleaning it. That's silly. 1353 01:01:14,630 --> 01:01:17,763 - Yes, I'm going to sit and just think about Bobby. 1354 01:01:18,710 --> 01:01:19,920 Clean away. 1355 01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:21,227 - Just get this stuff out. 1356 01:01:24,460 --> 01:01:26,313 - Where are those stones from? 1357 01:01:27,740 --> 01:01:31,790 - Well mostly from Ground Zero and Japan, 1358 01:01:31,790 --> 01:01:34,160 but I've added stones. 1359 01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:36,043 - I know this didn't come from Japan. 1360 01:01:36,043 --> 01:01:38,640 We would've never been able to carry it. 1361 01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:39,740 - We did two stone walks. 1362 01:01:39,740 --> 01:01:41,600 I think we did, no, maybe three stone walks. 1363 01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,970 One in Korea, Nagasaki to Hiroshima. 1364 01:01:44,970 --> 01:01:47,090 We pushed a 2000 pound stone 1365 01:01:47,090 --> 01:01:50,190 and on the way, where it's talking about anti-war, 1366 01:01:50,190 --> 01:01:54,740 that 9/11 were not, we think war is the wrong decision. 1367 01:01:54,740 --> 01:01:57,597 The monks, the Buddhist monks, pushed with us. 1368 01:01:57,597 --> 01:01:58,623 And we're talking days at a time. 1369 01:01:58,623 --> 01:02:00,880 I mean, talking about how friendly 1370 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:01,790 you can get after days. 1371 01:02:01,790 --> 01:02:04,070 I mean, if I was a religious person, 1372 01:02:04,070 --> 01:02:05,620 I would become a monk tomorrow. 1373 01:02:06,900 --> 01:02:07,733 All right. 1374 01:02:07,733 --> 01:02:09,280 - Now, can we sit for a minute? 1375 01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,452 - Yeah, you can sit. - You're gonna stand? 1376 01:02:11,452 --> 01:02:12,285 - No. 1377 01:02:12,285 --> 01:02:15,460 Okay, we did it, Bobaloo. - It looks beautiful. 1378 01:02:15,460 --> 01:02:17,063 Look at the flowers. 1379 01:02:18,110 --> 01:02:20,920 It's like yesterday or a thousand miles back, 1380 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,160 a thousand years back. - Seems like a thousand years. 1381 01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:24,210 - Yeah. 1382 01:02:24,210 --> 01:02:26,783 Sometimes it feels like yesterday afternoon. 1383 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:30,240 - What is not considered often 1384 01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,980 is the other victims of 9/11, 1385 01:02:33,980 --> 01:02:38,840 like the 30,000 soldiers that were involved 1386 01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:41,513 in the war since 9/11 who have killed themselves, 1387 01:02:42,691 --> 01:02:44,750 the 7,000 that have died, 1388 01:02:44,750 --> 01:02:48,690 and all the people that are handicapped and disabled, 1389 01:02:48,690 --> 01:02:50,440 as well as all the first responders 1390 01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:51,940 that are getting sick and dying. 1391 01:02:51,940 --> 01:02:53,000 - That's America's world. 1392 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,290 - Well that's the answer. 1393 01:02:55,290 --> 01:02:56,810 - Well America has got to change. 1394 01:02:56,810 --> 01:02:57,990 America has got to grow up. 1395 01:02:57,990 --> 01:03:00,530 The people of America have got to grow up. 1396 01:03:00,530 --> 01:03:03,330 They've got to get out of this they would never mentality. 1397 01:03:03,330 --> 01:03:05,940 You know, if they would never, then, you know, 1398 01:03:05,940 --> 01:03:07,950 they would never lie about the environmental impact 1399 01:03:07,950 --> 01:03:10,420 of 9/11 causing upwards of 70,000 1400 01:03:10,420 --> 01:03:13,430 9/11 first responders to become sick and dying. 1401 01:03:13,430 --> 01:03:17,270 This government is more than capable of anything. 1402 01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:18,103 Anything. 1403 01:03:18,103 --> 01:03:19,840 - That's why I've gone in the history. 1404 01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:20,673 History is so important to me 1405 01:03:20,673 --> 01:03:22,930 because we've been doing this bullshit forever. 1406 01:03:22,930 --> 01:03:25,110 - And you know, we're saying that we're leaving Afghanistan, 1407 01:03:25,110 --> 01:03:26,120 but how many mercenaries, 1408 01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:29,110 how many thousands are we still leaving there? 1409 01:03:29,110 --> 01:03:31,750 You know, it's disgusting. 1410 01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:33,130 - And we've been dealing with these, 1411 01:03:33,130 --> 01:03:36,010 we've dealt with Bin Laden fro 20 years 1412 01:03:36,850 --> 01:03:37,870 and then suddenly he becomes, 1413 01:03:37,870 --> 01:03:41,690 in '98 becomes the boogeyman, the bad guy. 1414 01:03:41,690 --> 01:03:45,310 The people that were in Iran-Contra, Lee Hamilton, 1415 01:03:45,310 --> 01:03:49,170 in '92, '93 had hearings on it and he dismissed everything. 1416 01:03:49,170 --> 01:03:50,757 It got it off the books. 1417 01:03:50,757 --> 01:03:52,210 And guess what? 1418 01:03:52,210 --> 01:03:56,050 Who's leading the 9/11 Commission? Lee Hamilton. 1419 01:03:56,050 --> 01:03:58,910 So if you put all these together, you know, it's bad news. 1420 01:03:58,910 --> 01:03:59,887 It really is bad news 1421 01:03:59,887 --> 01:04:01,930 and it's a horrible, horrible cover up. 1422 01:04:01,930 --> 01:04:03,490 - That was presented to the world 1423 01:04:03,490 --> 01:04:05,880 as the definitive account of 9/11 . 1424 01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:09,470 First of all, they only answered 30% of the family's 1425 01:04:09,470 --> 01:04:11,210 well-researched questions. 1426 01:04:11,210 --> 01:04:12,980 - There's so many things- - Of course. 1427 01:04:12,980 --> 01:04:15,647 - By choice, by design, and that keeps us 1428 01:04:15,647 --> 01:04:17,930 discussing back and forth, back and forth. 1429 01:04:17,930 --> 01:04:18,780 - Exactly. 1430 01:04:18,780 --> 01:04:20,740 Which is why I can't say definitively 1431 01:04:20,740 --> 01:04:22,870 that I know what happened on 9/11. 1432 01:04:22,870 --> 01:04:24,670 I couldn't tell you one way or the other 1433 01:04:24,670 --> 01:04:26,470 what happened to those buildings. 1434 01:04:26,470 --> 01:04:27,530 That is where the majority 1435 01:04:27,530 --> 01:04:29,720 of the people were murdered that day. 1436 01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,390 There are family members that still question 1437 01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:33,770 how those buildings came down 1438 01:04:33,770 --> 01:04:36,570 and as long as it's an important question to them, 1439 01:04:36,570 --> 01:04:39,140 it will always be an important question to me. 1440 01:04:39,140 --> 01:04:43,860 - And I spent so much time talking about how he died 1441 01:04:43,860 --> 01:04:46,490 and the thing is I'm sick of getting emotional. 1442 01:04:46,490 --> 01:04:47,988 Okay, I really am. 1443 01:04:47,988 --> 01:04:50,240 And I, you know, I really want to talk about 1444 01:04:50,240 --> 01:04:51,923 who helped kill Bobby. 1445 01:04:54,740 --> 01:04:56,440 We have enough for Jack? 1446 01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:57,330 - Yeah. 1447 01:04:57,330 --> 01:05:00,150 I guess I could grab a Gerber Daisy out of there. 1448 01:05:00,150 --> 01:05:01,796 Okay, let's go. 1449 01:05:01,796 --> 01:05:02,629 - All right? - Yeah 1450 01:05:02,629 --> 01:05:03,462 - All right. 1451 01:05:03,462 --> 01:05:04,633 All right, Bobaloo. Love you. 1452 01:05:06,050 --> 01:05:06,950 See you next week. 1453 01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,363 We went to a psychologist immediately. 1454 01:05:12,770 --> 01:05:14,100 He said, but look at it this way, 1455 01:05:14,100 --> 01:05:16,550 just put a silver dollar or a half dollar 1456 01:05:16,550 --> 01:05:18,453 in front of your eye like this. 1457 01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:20,273 Okay? 1458 01:05:20,273 --> 01:05:22,270 And he says, you know, that's right there. 1459 01:05:22,270 --> 01:05:25,210 It's in your face and it's going to stay in your face. 1460 01:05:25,210 --> 01:05:28,360 But eventually it just starts moving away. 1461 01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:31,150 And as that moves away, then you can see over here, 1462 01:05:31,150 --> 01:05:33,810 you can see over here, but it's still there, 1463 01:05:33,810 --> 01:05:35,470 but eventually it moves further out. 1464 01:05:35,470 --> 01:05:37,320 Then you can see this way, you can see this way, 1465 01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:39,187 but it's still there. 1466 01:05:39,187 --> 01:05:42,160 And eventually it keeps moving out, and it's the truth. 1467 01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:44,680 You know, we can laugh now, we have fun things, 1468 01:05:44,680 --> 01:05:46,713 but it's always there. 1469 01:05:47,790 --> 01:05:48,790 - Gotta respond to West Street 1470 01:05:48,790 --> 01:05:51,061 because we've got some very burned bad, 1471 01:05:51,061 --> 01:05:54,049 badly burned victims in building one, the lobby. 1472 01:05:54,049 --> 01:05:54,882 - At West Street? 1473 01:05:54,882 --> 01:05:55,820 - Yeah, West Street side. - Okay. 1474 01:05:55,820 --> 01:05:56,693 - All right, thank you. 1475 01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,840 - Hopefully we just sort of drop out 1476 01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,970 because I don't want to sit and argue with people. 1477 01:06:06,970 --> 01:06:09,363 I just think it speaks for itself. 1478 01:06:11,950 --> 01:06:14,920 You know, obviously we know he's dead, right? 1479 01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:16,593 So, you know, I have this. 1480 01:06:19,550 --> 01:06:22,510 So a doctor confirming and not confirming it, you know, 1481 01:06:22,510 --> 01:06:23,970 it doesn't mean anything to me. 1482 01:06:23,970 --> 01:06:26,290 You know, a medical professional, 1483 01:06:26,290 --> 01:06:27,730 say you're a medical professional. 1484 01:06:27,730 --> 01:06:30,030 I come up to you and say, this is 9/11. 1485 01:06:30,030 --> 01:06:33,353 He's probably scared to death to say one thing or another. 1486 01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:42,990 - Cyril H. Wecht. 1487 01:06:42,990 --> 01:06:46,980 I am a forensic pathologist and a medical legal consultant. 1488 01:06:46,980 --> 01:06:49,950 I was the coroner of Allegheny County, Pittsburgh 1489 01:06:49,950 --> 01:06:53,750 and 129 surrounding municipalities for 20 years, 1490 01:06:53,750 --> 01:06:56,180 two separate 10 year periods. 1491 01:06:56,180 --> 01:06:59,270 Since 1957, I would estimate I have performed 1492 01:06:59,270 --> 01:07:01,480 about 21,000 autopsies. 1493 01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:04,080 I have reviewed, signed off or supervised 1494 01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:06,843 on about 41,000 other autopsies. 1495 01:07:06,843 --> 01:07:09,730 When I was asked to review the Warren Commission report, 1496 01:07:09,730 --> 01:07:12,590 it was in August of that year that I pointed out 1497 01:07:12,590 --> 01:07:14,720 that the president's brain was missing. 1498 01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:17,160 Others knew about it, but no one had said a word. 1499 01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,160 And so, anyway, so these are the things that I do, 1500 01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:22,780 all of these consultations and these autopsies 1501 01:07:22,780 --> 01:07:24,490 and then occasionally, you know, 1502 01:07:24,490 --> 01:07:27,363 the major national controversial case. 1503 01:07:32,410 --> 01:07:33,413 Abrasions. 1504 01:07:34,820 --> 01:07:37,840 Oh, much of the face is marked here as missing. 1505 01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:40,130 They blocked everything, expect the lower face, 1506 01:07:40,130 --> 01:07:41,390 is blocked off. 1507 01:07:41,390 --> 01:07:44,460 Unfortunately they don't describe 1508 01:07:44,460 --> 01:07:48,760 the remaining portion of the skull 1509 01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:53,240 to permit me to determine whether it looked like 1510 01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,590 that which is missing had blown off 1511 01:07:56,590 --> 01:07:59,090 as opposed to having been crushed. 1512 01:07:59,090 --> 01:08:00,700 Most of head. Yeah, I'm right. 1513 01:08:00,700 --> 01:08:02,210 Absent, most of head. 1514 01:08:02,210 --> 01:08:05,340 So what is it that the father wants to know? 1515 01:08:05,340 --> 01:08:07,350 Okay. And the body was found when? 1516 01:08:07,350 --> 01:08:09,400 - He was found shortly after 1517 01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:11,440 the North Tower was struck. 1518 01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,560 - And he was in front of, near the lobby. 1519 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,158 Like entering the lobby. 1520 01:08:16,158 --> 01:08:18,010 - Well then it had to be from some kind of 1521 01:08:18,010 --> 01:08:19,143 an explosive effect. 1522 01:08:22,790 --> 01:08:24,750 - Normally the way it works is 1523 01:08:24,750 --> 01:08:28,190 if you have a family member that's murdered, 1524 01:08:28,190 --> 01:08:31,430 you call the police and the police do an investigation 1525 01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:35,000 and you trust the authorities to be thorough, 1526 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,030 to care and to want to get to the truth. 1527 01:08:38,030 --> 01:08:40,383 And you don't have to go petition. 1528 01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:45,680 It's not the proper role a citizen should have to take 1529 01:08:45,680 --> 01:08:47,820 is to force the government to do an investigation, 1530 01:08:47,820 --> 01:08:50,473 but apparently that is what's required. 1531 01:08:56,132 --> 01:08:56,981 - All right. 1532 01:08:56,981 --> 01:08:59,036 It's another day. 1533 01:08:59,036 --> 01:09:00,203 - Here, come. 1534 01:09:03,780 --> 01:09:06,130 We're at Point Mountain Reserve. 1535 01:09:06,130 --> 01:09:09,160 Every 9/11, I go for a hike to remember my mom. 1536 01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:10,850 It's better for me, you know, 1537 01:09:10,850 --> 01:09:12,770 instead of going to a church or memorial. 1538 01:09:12,770 --> 01:09:15,000 You know, I just like to be by myself, 1539 01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:16,470 you know, with the ones that I love 1540 01:09:16,470 --> 01:09:18,763 and that's how I deal with things. 1541 01:09:20,740 --> 01:09:23,000 I've been to the site a number of times 1542 01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:24,420 but I've never been to the museum. 1543 01:09:24,420 --> 01:09:25,460 My sister invited me. 1544 01:09:25,460 --> 01:09:28,810 I really have no want or need to go there. 1545 01:09:28,810 --> 01:09:31,146 I find it probably mostly depressing. 1546 01:09:31,146 --> 01:09:34,140 She confirmed my suspicions. 1547 01:09:34,140 --> 01:09:35,280 She said it was great to do once, 1548 01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:37,130 but probably would never do it again. 1549 01:09:38,210 --> 01:09:40,260 20 years is really just a number. 1550 01:09:40,260 --> 01:09:41,530 I know for most people who don't 1551 01:09:41,530 --> 01:09:44,800 deal with it every day, you know, 20 years is a big deal. 1552 01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,023 But same thing year in, year out for me. 1553 01:09:49,270 --> 01:09:50,880 Having kids and not having 1554 01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,310 my mom here has been pretty tough. 1555 01:09:53,310 --> 01:09:56,660 I just really wish my kids had a chance to meet her. 1556 01:09:56,660 --> 01:10:00,103 And there's not many people I feel that are willing to do 1557 01:10:00,103 --> 01:10:02,950 what I'm doing right now just to kind of 1558 01:10:02,950 --> 01:10:05,430 keep the victim's memories alive as well as, you know, 1559 01:10:05,430 --> 01:10:08,710 hopefully get down to the bottom of the things. 1560 01:10:08,710 --> 01:10:10,400 I think we need more sense of community in this country 1561 01:10:10,400 --> 01:10:12,870 and I think 9/11 did that for a little bit 1562 01:10:12,870 --> 01:10:15,140 and then tapered off. 1563 01:10:15,140 --> 01:10:16,930 So as long as people start to think for themselves 1564 01:10:16,930 --> 01:10:21,610 and just, you know, hold the ones dear to them close 1565 01:10:21,610 --> 01:10:26,010 and just have fun and don't take themselves so seriously, 1566 01:10:26,010 --> 01:10:27,823 I think the world would be a better place. 1567 01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,582 - We need to get some flowers in London. 1568 01:10:37,582 --> 01:10:39,045 - I've got them, yeah. - Have you got them with you? 1569 01:10:39,045 --> 01:10:40,701 - Everything ready, yes. - In that little bag? 1570 01:10:40,701 --> 01:10:41,534 - Yes. 1571 01:10:46,901 --> 01:10:49,810 - You know, we take his random thought. 1572 01:10:49,810 --> 01:10:50,643 - Yes. 1573 01:10:50,643 --> 01:10:53,077 - We call it 9/11. 1574 01:10:53,077 --> 01:10:54,455 - Yeah. - But you know, that's weird. 1575 01:10:54,455 --> 01:10:55,560 - I know, and in fact- 1576 01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:57,060 - But would you ever call it 11/9? 1577 01:10:57,060 --> 01:10:58,260 It just... 1578 01:10:58,260 --> 01:10:59,461 - No, no. 1579 01:10:59,461 --> 01:11:00,900 - Does it have a significance 20 years? 1580 01:11:00,900 --> 01:11:01,733 I mean, it's just one of those things, 1581 01:11:01,733 --> 01:11:04,870 it's like, so different to any anniversary. 1582 01:11:04,870 --> 01:11:07,206 It's kind of, you know. - Yes, of course. 1583 01:11:07,206 --> 01:11:08,680 - And for anything, it could be a wedding anniversary. 1584 01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:12,230 It could be, you know, it's a strange thing to give. 1585 01:11:12,230 --> 01:11:14,470 Why does the 19th anniversary have 1586 01:11:14,470 --> 01:11:17,923 any less importance than than the 20th to nothing? 1587 01:11:24,790 --> 01:11:26,876 Uh, where's the queue? 1588 01:11:26,876 --> 01:11:29,468 Oh, there is no queue. 1589 01:11:29,468 --> 01:11:30,301 But it's not a grave or anything. 1590 01:11:30,301 --> 01:11:31,470 - No, but I wanted to say that after 1591 01:11:31,470 --> 01:11:35,000 coming for 15 years I stopped coming because... 1592 01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:36,995 - Why did you stop coming? 1593 01:11:36,995 --> 01:11:37,828 - Because. 1594 01:11:37,828 --> 01:11:40,613 When I stopped going after, I suppose about 15 years 1595 01:11:40,613 --> 01:11:43,290 because I felt it difficult because so many people 1596 01:11:43,290 --> 01:11:46,140 have not had their loved ones identified 1597 01:11:46,140 --> 01:11:48,423 and we've had a number of things come over. 1598 01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:51,810 - I remember the flurry of emails 1599 01:11:51,810 --> 01:11:52,820 and letters that were going around 1600 01:11:52,820 --> 01:11:56,830 when this was being proposed and designed. 1601 01:11:56,830 --> 01:11:58,703 - Every year, September 11th, 1602 01:11:58,703 --> 01:12:01,547 for the first 15 years, I used to come. 1603 01:12:01,547 --> 01:12:03,310 You had to arrange in advance 1604 01:12:03,310 --> 01:12:05,530 whether you wanted to read out a family member, 1605 01:12:05,530 --> 01:12:08,610 but you sometimes have to read a couple of other people 1606 01:12:08,610 --> 01:12:11,210 depending on how many came. 1607 01:12:11,210 --> 01:12:12,710 And that's really lovely. 1608 01:12:12,710 --> 01:12:13,543 - Can you read that, mom? 1609 01:12:13,543 --> 01:12:17,010 - "Time is too slow for those who wait." 1610 01:12:17,010 --> 01:12:20,793 I'd like to lay our roses here if we could, yes? 1611 01:12:23,470 --> 01:12:24,780 Okay. - Put one down from Robin, 1612 01:12:24,780 --> 01:12:27,150 and then I'll do dad's and ours, yeah? 1613 01:12:27,150 --> 01:12:28,850 Yeah. - I can't quite reach it. 1614 01:12:28,850 --> 01:12:31,257 Can you, Matthew? - Oh, here. 1615 01:12:31,257 --> 01:12:33,960 - "Always I'll be in your heart. 1616 01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:36,720 Don't forget my soul is near you 1617 01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,360 and so we'll never be apart." 1618 01:12:39,360 --> 01:12:42,610 And this is from your friends at Risk Waters, 1619 01:12:42,610 --> 01:12:43,550 which is rather poignant. 1620 01:12:43,550 --> 01:12:46,080 That's very worse on that fateful day. 1621 01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:50,480 Keep that on my sideboard next to Geoff's picture. 1622 01:12:50,480 --> 01:12:53,460 Where is it there's supposed to be a remnant of... 1623 01:12:54,890 --> 01:12:56,250 Is it the metal? It's the metal, isn't it? 1624 01:12:56,250 --> 01:12:57,083 - Yeah, no. 1625 01:12:58,331 --> 01:12:59,650 So the Memorial stone is carved by hand 1626 01:12:59,650 --> 01:13:01,280 and includes an extract from the American poet, 1627 01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:04,210 Henry Van Dyke, underneath it preserved in resin 1628 01:13:04,210 --> 01:13:07,105 lies a section of the steel girder salvaged from 1629 01:13:07,105 --> 01:13:08,040 the World Trade Center. - Salvaged, yes I knew it was. 1630 01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:10,290 I thought it would be in that top part there. 1631 01:13:11,340 --> 01:13:14,129 - Pick it up and test it for explosive residues. 1632 01:13:14,129 --> 01:13:15,810 All right, mom, should we head out? 1633 01:13:15,810 --> 01:13:16,780 - I think so. 1634 01:13:16,780 --> 01:13:17,940 - Yeah? - I'll go get my bag. 1635 01:13:17,940 --> 01:13:20,150 - Oh, it's in the walk about. 1636 01:13:20,150 --> 01:13:23,090 - With me, I mean, obviously I grieve my Geoff, 1637 01:13:23,090 --> 01:13:24,600 but I felt well, Geoff wouldn't want 1638 01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:27,750 to see me in the corner crying all the time. 1639 01:13:27,750 --> 01:13:28,740 Yes, I just thought, well, 1640 01:13:28,740 --> 01:13:31,420 I want Geoff to see that I am going on with life 1641 01:13:31,420 --> 01:13:34,887 and I am continued to be the happy person I always was, 1642 01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:39,030 a nan, you know, so that's what helped me through. 1643 01:13:39,030 --> 01:13:42,880 I know Matthew and Robert had a lot, a lot, 1644 01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:46,609 a lot of struggles, but that's the way it is. 1645 01:13:46,609 --> 01:13:47,740 We're several individuals 1646 01:13:47,740 --> 01:13:50,100 and we deal with things differently. 1647 01:13:50,100 --> 01:13:55,100 - When it takes decades to get some semblance of justice, 1648 01:13:56,020 --> 01:14:00,100 it's always through the never-ending fights 1649 01:14:00,100 --> 01:14:03,740 that it just seems so wrong that family members 1650 01:14:03,740 --> 01:14:07,600 have to pursue in order to get some sort of justice. 1651 01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:10,490 One of the things that I've always personally found 1652 01:14:10,490 --> 01:14:12,250 to be quite striking is the degree 1653 01:14:12,250 --> 01:14:15,063 of fragmentation of the remains. 1654 01:14:17,041 --> 01:14:18,727 - The title of this report is 1655 01:14:18,727 --> 01:14:20,890 "Human identification following 1656 01:14:20,890 --> 01:14:23,140 the World Trade Center disaster: 1657 01:14:23,140 --> 01:14:25,110 assessing management practices 1658 01:14:25,110 --> 01:14:29,120 for highly fragmented and commingled human remains." 1659 01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:32,210 - So out of the 2,600 odd who died 1660 01:14:32,210 --> 01:14:33,600 at the World Trade Center, 1661 01:14:33,600 --> 01:14:36,940 you know, there's 22,000 fragments. 1662 01:14:36,940 --> 01:14:39,860 - Medical examiner personnel were initially caught off guard 1663 01:14:39,860 --> 01:14:42,430 by the degree of destruction and fragmentation 1664 01:14:42,430 --> 01:14:44,190 of the recovered human remains. 1665 01:14:44,190 --> 01:14:47,150 - 5,00 of those 22,000 fragments 1666 01:14:47,150 --> 01:14:48,440 are smaller than an inch. 1667 01:14:48,440 --> 01:14:52,720 It's 1100 and something people have not been identified. 1668 01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:57,270 That's a huge, you can't even fathom Geoff's remains, 1669 01:14:57,270 --> 01:14:59,170 no more than two, three-percent of his body, 1670 01:14:59,170 --> 01:15:03,370 it's actually the last remain identified in May 2013. 1671 01:15:03,370 --> 01:15:05,260 This fragment that's still in New York 1672 01:15:05,260 --> 01:15:06,940 was actually given a location. 1673 01:15:06,940 --> 01:15:08,620 It's just south of the North Tower. 1674 01:15:08,620 --> 01:15:13,360 It's between 18 and 41 meters away from the South Tower. 1675 01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:16,500 Okay, it's not the kind of two or 300 meters distance 1676 01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:17,420 that some remains were found. 1677 01:15:17,420 --> 01:15:20,640 There's a horrendous map that I think 1678 01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:23,300 the fire brigade prepared and they, you know, 1679 01:15:23,300 --> 01:15:25,610 they'd tag whether it's a civilian, firefighter, et cetera, 1680 01:15:25,610 --> 01:15:29,060 but there is one that just tags human remains 1681 01:15:29,060 --> 01:15:30,160 and it's awful. 1682 01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:32,020 You've got the two footprints of the Towers 1683 01:15:32,020 --> 01:15:36,993 and there's just this huge spread of remains 1684 01:15:36,993 --> 01:15:38,340 that were once people. 1685 01:15:38,340 --> 01:15:40,710 Okay, well we know the steel beams were propelled out 1686 01:15:40,710 --> 01:15:43,403 with huge forces, but the actual physical stuff 1687 01:15:43,403 --> 01:15:46,790 that I care about, people and my brother, 1688 01:15:46,790 --> 01:15:50,140 were ejected outside of the footprints. 1689 01:15:50,140 --> 01:15:52,610 And it's just, it's so unpleasant thinking about it, 1690 01:15:52,610 --> 01:15:54,900 but I've since read a lot that has been published 1691 01:15:54,900 --> 01:15:57,210 about the search to try and identify people 1692 01:15:57,210 --> 01:15:59,810 is this concept of commingling. 1693 01:15:59,810 --> 01:16:03,200 - The explosive force that blew over firetrucks 1694 01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:06,640 and peeled stone facades from buildings 1695 01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:08,950 also disintegrated human bodies, 1696 01:16:08,950 --> 01:16:11,110 turning bones into flying shrapnel. 1697 01:16:11,110 --> 01:16:14,160 The tidal wave of debris that carried human remains 1698 01:16:14,160 --> 01:16:16,300 blocks away, depositing them, 1699 01:16:16,300 --> 01:16:18,810 in some cases on top of buildings, 1700 01:16:18,810 --> 01:16:23,310 also fused soft tissue into bone fragments. 1701 01:16:23,310 --> 01:16:26,056 - And that basically means the impact 1702 01:16:26,056 --> 01:16:28,120 of the force of the explosion, 1703 01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:32,320 you know, not just the pancake collapse, whatever, 1704 01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:34,720 has actually mingled remains into my brother. 1705 01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:37,900 And so the only explanation she could give me was 1706 01:16:37,900 --> 01:16:40,770 they couldn't get a clear single DNA match 1707 01:16:40,770 --> 01:16:42,640 in those remains so I just got this horrible vision 1708 01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:45,350 of other people's remains being removed 1709 01:16:45,350 --> 01:16:47,531 from my brother's face. 1710 01:16:47,531 --> 01:16:48,810 It was just, yeah. 1711 01:16:48,810 --> 01:16:51,710 - That's not going to happen from crushing. 1712 01:16:51,710 --> 01:16:56,520 A building collapses and two or more people are crushed. 1713 01:16:56,520 --> 01:17:00,100 I can't envision a situation in which the soft tissue 1714 01:17:00,100 --> 01:17:03,610 of one victim is hurled with such force 1715 01:17:03,610 --> 01:17:05,670 as to become embedded into, 1716 01:17:05,670 --> 01:17:08,500 attached to a bony fragment of another victim. 1717 01:17:08,500 --> 01:17:10,510 I can't envision that. 1718 01:17:10,510 --> 01:17:13,020 - And one of the things I've always pondered about is, 1719 01:17:13,020 --> 01:17:15,950 you know, okay, there's all massive degree of fragmentation. 1720 01:17:15,950 --> 01:17:17,700 Some people, nothing found at all, 1721 01:17:17,700 --> 01:17:21,690 but you also had fairly large parts of people being found. 1722 01:17:21,690 --> 01:17:22,930 I mean, there was one guy at the inquest, 1723 01:17:22,930 --> 01:17:26,880 same floor as my brother, 86% of his body was found. 1724 01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:29,000 I am not going to say it was, but you know, 1725 01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:30,793 he was one of the, in fact, two family members 1726 01:17:30,793 --> 01:17:32,230 that actually bothered attending. 1727 01:17:32,230 --> 01:17:33,220 I mean, there you go. 1728 01:17:33,220 --> 01:17:36,560 But he's just there going, I don't, I don't understand why, 1729 01:17:36,560 --> 01:17:38,580 because everyone kept being read out, you know, 1730 01:17:38,580 --> 01:17:40,770 small fragments, all this two percent, 1731 01:17:40,770 --> 01:17:42,960 and he's sitting there going how? 1732 01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:44,180 And then for me, you know, 1733 01:17:44,180 --> 01:17:46,260 the unpleasant conclusion I've drawn 1734 01:17:46,260 --> 01:17:47,850 is his proximity to explosives 1735 01:17:47,850 --> 01:17:50,803 so if you were very close to the explosives, 1736 01:17:51,789 --> 01:17:53,220 there's not a lot left of you. 1737 01:17:53,220 --> 01:17:56,247 That's something I've always thought about, 1738 01:17:56,247 --> 01:18:00,190 but that's quite a dark topic to kind of touch on 1739 01:18:00,190 --> 01:18:01,593 or thought to have, even. 1740 01:18:03,370 --> 01:18:05,780 - This is a strange situation. 1741 01:18:05,780 --> 01:18:09,090 I hope that the architects and engineers 1742 01:18:09,090 --> 01:18:14,090 and others who have studied this horrible tragedy 1743 01:18:15,230 --> 01:18:17,540 and who have expressed their opinions 1744 01:18:17,540 --> 01:18:22,540 will be given the opportunity to testify in public. 1745 01:18:23,390 --> 01:18:25,410 I hope that happens and I'm amazed 1746 01:18:25,410 --> 01:18:27,423 that it has not yet happened. 1747 01:18:29,270 --> 01:18:32,180 - I've been holding a vision in my head 1748 01:18:32,180 --> 01:18:35,550 of standing outside this building 1749 01:18:35,550 --> 01:18:37,850 after successfully getting the authority 1750 01:18:37,850 --> 01:18:39,500 from the attorney general. 1751 01:18:39,500 --> 01:18:41,090 It's that it's not the coroner's court, 1752 01:18:41,090 --> 01:18:44,550 but it's that important step after the attorney general. 1753 01:18:44,550 --> 01:18:46,190 You know, exciting is the wrong word, but it's like, 1754 01:18:46,190 --> 01:18:48,660 you know, we're actually at this point right now 1755 01:18:48,660 --> 01:18:53,200 where I know that, you know, myself and mom 1756 01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,910 and hopefully dad and Rob will be going up to London 1757 01:18:56,910 --> 01:19:00,643 and actually submitting this to the attorney general. 1758 01:19:08,681 --> 01:19:10,065 - Do you want to wear your hat now, love? 1759 01:19:10,065 --> 01:19:10,961 - No. 1760 01:19:10,961 --> 01:19:12,430 - You do. 1761 01:19:12,430 --> 01:19:13,633 - Are you going to wear a hat? 1762 01:19:13,633 --> 01:19:16,050 - Only for the photo. 1763 01:19:18,073 --> 01:19:18,906 - You want me to sit, 1764 01:19:18,906 --> 01:19:21,078 or are you sitting there, mom? 1765 01:19:21,078 --> 01:19:23,400 - Let's assume that the attorney general 1766 01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:24,493 grants his authority. 1767 01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,260 An order will go to the high court 1768 01:19:27,260 --> 01:19:30,920 to quash the provincial inquest and to open a new one. 1769 01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:34,720 The high court typically sides with what 1770 01:19:34,720 --> 01:19:36,880 the attorney general has decided. 1771 01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:38,570 So, you know, we're hopeful 1772 01:19:38,570 --> 01:19:40,710 that once the attorney general says yes, 1773 01:19:40,710 --> 01:19:41,910 grants his authority, 1774 01:19:41,910 --> 01:19:45,190 it should be a formality for the case to be pushed 1775 01:19:45,190 --> 01:19:47,650 to the West London coroner's court. 1776 01:19:47,650 --> 01:19:49,550 And I think the question then would be 1777 01:19:49,550 --> 01:19:52,620 after the courts trial, the court case, 1778 01:19:52,620 --> 01:19:54,080 how I feel then, and, you know, 1779 01:19:54,080 --> 01:19:56,110 it's been hard, hard work over a year 1780 01:19:56,110 --> 01:19:59,330 to get everything together to actually come to this day. 1781 01:19:59,330 --> 01:20:01,714 A couple of weeks before the 20th anniversary, 1782 01:20:01,714 --> 01:20:03,851 you know, it's a massive achievement. 1783 01:20:03,851 --> 01:20:06,123 I went to the Reinvestigate 9/11 meeting 1784 01:20:06,123 --> 01:20:07,450 that was being held in London 1785 01:20:07,450 --> 01:20:09,350 and it was the first time I was actually interacting 1786 01:20:09,350 --> 01:20:12,990 and actually seeing people who, you know, were like me. 1787 01:20:12,990 --> 01:20:14,960 Didn't believe the official narrative 1788 01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:16,220 of what we've been told. 1789 01:20:16,220 --> 01:20:18,220 So, yeah, I mean, 'cause in the early days 1790 01:20:18,220 --> 01:20:21,233 it was really just me. - Well of course, yes. 1791 01:20:21,233 --> 01:20:23,480 - I started going slightly insane 1792 01:20:23,480 --> 01:20:24,670 in the early years, you know. 1793 01:20:24,670 --> 01:20:28,770 I was still dealing with depression and you know, 1794 01:20:28,770 --> 01:20:31,230 I basically had a huge eureka. 1795 01:20:31,230 --> 01:20:36,230 I just felt I was able to actually go public properly 1796 01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:38,160 and you know, I guess talk about stuff. 1797 01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:40,380 And I was kind of inspired by the speakers 1798 01:20:40,380 --> 01:20:41,267 that were at Reinvestigate 9/11 1799 01:20:41,267 --> 01:20:43,320 and I thought, well, I can surely do something 1800 01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:45,450 because I'm a family member and you know I lost someone. 1801 01:20:45,450 --> 01:20:50,050 I think that all of us together as applicants, 1802 01:20:50,050 --> 01:20:53,183 it helps the case, I guess, to a certain extent. 1803 01:20:58,150 --> 01:20:59,557 All right, we want to go to 54 Douty Street. 1804 01:21:01,028 --> 01:21:02,945 - Douty? - Douty Street. 1805 01:21:04,551 --> 01:21:05,898 - And Evie Devie, that's Henry. 1806 01:21:05,898 --> 01:21:07,749 - Hi. Hug, hug? 1807 01:21:07,749 --> 01:21:08,740 The place is like a ghost town. 1808 01:21:08,740 --> 01:21:09,977 I mean, it goes all the way back 1809 01:21:09,977 --> 01:21:11,776 and have a lot of space so if you want 1810 01:21:11,776 --> 01:21:12,940 to get a meeting room there, I'm sure. 1811 01:21:12,940 --> 01:21:15,670 - We're waiting for Ian Henshall to turn up. 1812 01:21:15,670 --> 01:21:17,080 - You know, you can't predict the future, 1813 01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:19,960 but this could be the moment that changed everything. 1814 01:21:19,960 --> 01:21:22,620 You know, I'm not 100% optimistic about that, 1815 01:21:22,620 --> 01:21:23,630 but it could be. 1816 01:21:23,630 --> 01:21:26,510 If you don't even try, then you've lost to start with, 1817 01:21:26,510 --> 01:21:28,930 and how much Matt's tried, 1818 01:21:28,930 --> 01:21:31,800 I mean, this is just like Matt's day today. 1819 01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:32,970 - Well, today's the culmination 1820 01:21:32,970 --> 01:21:35,920 of a lot of hard work by a lot of people. 1821 01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:38,150 Where it goes beyond here, who's to say, 1822 01:21:38,150 --> 01:21:41,120 we'll find out, I guess, in probably a few months. 1823 01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:44,630 - In this box, we have just shy of 3000 pages. 1824 01:21:44,630 --> 01:21:47,800 This is a cover letter to the attorney general. 1825 01:21:47,800 --> 01:21:50,050 Eye witness statements from first responders 1826 01:21:50,050 --> 01:21:52,630 who were there when, you know, the three towers collapsed. 1827 01:21:52,630 --> 01:21:54,280 You know, these first responders who are willing 1828 01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:57,780 to support our application, but also in court, 1829 01:21:57,780 --> 01:22:00,910 they're prepared to be cross-examined as witnesses. 1830 01:22:00,910 --> 01:22:03,400 Yeah, I'm hopeful that we can actually change 1831 01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,193 the verdicts of what caused my brother's death, 1832 01:22:07,100 --> 01:22:10,560 that it was explosives that ultimately killed him. 1833 01:22:10,560 --> 01:22:15,560 If the senior coroner, at the Westland coroner's court 1834 01:22:16,330 --> 01:22:21,330 looks at our application, decides it has enough merit 1835 01:22:22,736 --> 01:22:24,570 to reopen my brother's inquest, 1836 01:22:24,570 --> 01:22:26,210 he can sign that consent order 1837 01:22:26,210 --> 01:22:28,590 and it will speed things up tremendously. 1838 01:22:28,590 --> 01:22:31,070 And, you know, we could be talking months 1839 01:22:31,070 --> 01:22:34,823 instead of years to actually get this stuff into court. 1840 01:22:35,750 --> 01:22:39,520 When I looked at Geoff's remains, you know, for me, 1841 01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:40,633 I wasn't really looking at my brother. 1842 01:22:40,633 --> 01:22:43,010 I mean, for me, the physical form, 1843 01:22:43,010 --> 01:22:45,940 the 3D form of Geoff is gone. 1844 01:22:45,940 --> 01:22:48,100 That doesn't mean he's not, you know, 1845 01:22:48,100 --> 01:22:51,190 in the stardust and around us all the time, you know? 1846 01:22:51,190 --> 01:22:54,740 - Yes, well, this is one of my favorite photos of Geoff. 1847 01:22:54,740 --> 01:22:58,180 If you can see here that he's got his blue spotty tie 1848 01:22:58,180 --> 01:22:59,980 and after Geoff had died, 1849 01:22:59,980 --> 01:23:03,790 we went back to the flat and I asked Caroline 1850 01:23:03,790 --> 01:23:06,410 I'd love to take something back of Geoff's 1851 01:23:06,410 --> 01:23:11,350 and I asked if I could have his spotty tie. 1852 01:23:11,350 --> 01:23:13,050 He called it his lucky tie. 1853 01:23:13,050 --> 01:23:15,500 I like to think of happy thoughts of Geoff. 1854 01:23:15,500 --> 01:23:19,630 I know there's a lot of sadness and that, but yes, 1855 01:23:19,630 --> 01:23:24,150 I like to go forward thinking it could make a difference. 1856 01:23:24,150 --> 01:23:26,290 He worked in London. 1857 01:23:26,290 --> 01:23:27,820 I think it was the Abbey National, 1858 01:23:27,820 --> 01:23:31,160 and it was the time when there were bomb scares going off. 1859 01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:33,770 And in fact at Barclaycard we had various drills 1860 01:23:33,770 --> 01:23:34,840 and things like that. 1861 01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:37,640 And he said to me, do you know, mom, 1862 01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:41,330 you can just be in the wrong place at the wrong time. 1863 01:23:41,330 --> 01:23:44,290 Always thought of Maureen and the three boys, 1864 01:23:44,290 --> 01:23:47,830 and in fact, I've been given a lovely bracelet 1865 01:23:47,830 --> 01:23:50,610 from Matthew and Mel with the three signs, 1866 01:23:50,610 --> 01:23:52,460 the three stones from the three boys. 1867 01:23:52,460 --> 01:23:55,860 And if anyone asked me how many children you've got, 1868 01:23:55,860 --> 01:24:00,113 I always say three. 1869 01:24:02,890 --> 01:24:04,330 I think you should be proud 1870 01:24:04,330 --> 01:24:06,580 of all your efforts and Geoff. 1871 01:24:06,580 --> 01:24:07,413 - Yeah. - I hope so. 1872 01:24:07,413 --> 01:24:10,633 - I'm sure dad is, too, in his own way. 1873 01:24:12,320 --> 01:24:13,343 - So I have hope. 1874 01:24:14,290 --> 01:24:17,370 I think at this stage, it's too premature 1875 01:24:17,370 --> 01:24:19,530 for me to be thinking too far in the future. 1876 01:24:19,530 --> 01:24:22,940 You know, the application has been submitted, 1877 01:24:22,940 --> 01:24:25,120 where it leads after that, I don't know, 1878 01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:27,380 but I'm just pleased we're here, 1879 01:24:27,380 --> 01:24:31,330 it's submitted and we'll see what the future brings. 1880 01:24:31,330 --> 01:24:33,382 My wife's always said she sees me, 1881 01:24:33,382 --> 01:24:36,300 you know, has visions of me outside the high court 1882 01:24:36,300 --> 01:24:37,930 and we've, you know, we've got it there. 1883 01:24:37,930 --> 01:24:39,050 She can't really see further than that, 1884 01:24:39,050 --> 01:24:40,310 but she just has this vision. 1885 01:24:40,310 --> 01:24:41,550 She likes me wearing a shirt occasionally, 1886 01:24:41,550 --> 01:24:42,800 which I've done today. 1887 01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:47,443 You know, she just she sees me outside the court. 1888 01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:49,520 You know? 1889 01:24:49,520 --> 01:24:50,720 Am I going to get a haircut? 1890 01:24:50,720 --> 01:24:53,890 Um, no, I'm going to keep my hair. It's growing on me. 1891 01:24:53,890 --> 01:24:56,530 Be fun just to annoy mom, you know. 1892 01:24:56,530 --> 01:24:59,360 She prefers me wearing a hat these days, 1893 01:24:59,360 --> 01:25:00,510 but no, I like my hair. 1894 01:25:01,665 --> 01:25:03,990 It's still that a little bit towards the system 1895 01:25:03,990 --> 01:25:06,960 and my frustration, but now it's growing on me. 1896 01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:08,010 I'm going to keep it. 1897 01:25:13,780 --> 01:25:14,700 - How should I put this? 1898 01:25:14,700 --> 01:25:17,690 Yeah, of course governments lie. It's their job. 1899 01:25:17,690 --> 01:25:21,113 But it makes you very cynical about the world. 1900 01:25:22,660 --> 01:25:24,950 In my view, quite rightly so. 1901 01:25:24,950 --> 01:25:26,580 - Our country took the wrong tact. 1902 01:25:26,580 --> 01:25:29,250 They didn't investigate 9/11 thoroughly 1903 01:25:29,250 --> 01:25:32,830 and I think it's caused us to live in fear 1904 01:25:32,830 --> 01:25:35,760 of something that we didn't fully understand. 1905 01:25:35,760 --> 01:25:36,850 - I can't remember who said it. 1906 01:25:36,850 --> 01:25:38,803 Somebody said, you know, World War III 1907 01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:45,320 will be fought with the most incredible technology, 1908 01:25:45,670 --> 01:25:47,810 with the most incredible weapons of war 1909 01:25:47,810 --> 01:25:50,933 and World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones. 1910 01:25:52,530 --> 01:25:54,260 And I believe it. 1911 01:25:54,260 --> 01:25:58,070 - Thomas Merton had a phrase that he coined 1912 01:25:58,070 --> 01:25:59,670 called the unspeakable. 1913 01:25:59,670 --> 01:26:03,530 Evil so awful and almost unimaginable 1914 01:26:03,530 --> 01:26:07,350 that it defied the ability of words to capture it. 1915 01:26:07,350 --> 01:26:10,050 It's a void that exists 1916 01:26:10,050 --> 01:26:14,163 even before uttering the unspeakable. 1917 01:26:15,030 --> 01:26:19,213 Well, the void would be not talking about 9/11. 1918 01:26:20,100 --> 01:26:23,780 That if we don't deal with it, then we can't correct it. 1919 01:26:23,780 --> 01:26:26,550 The story can only last so long, 1920 01:26:26,550 --> 01:26:30,050 however enduring the seams, 1921 01:26:30,050 --> 01:26:34,701 that lies always need protecting, the truth doesn't. 1922 01:26:41,380 --> 01:26:42,598 - Let me start again. Right? 1923 01:26:42,598 --> 01:26:43,690 God, this is like fucking outtakes. 1924 01:26:43,690 --> 01:26:44,583 Ridiculous, right? 1925 01:27:55,747 --> 01:27:57,977 - Do you mind us being... 1926 01:27:57,977 --> 01:28:00,680 You know, quite frankly, emotional. 1927 01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:01,590 - It's great to feel peaceful. 1928 01:28:01,590 --> 01:28:02,910 Everyone just wants to feel peaceful, 1929 01:28:02,910 --> 01:28:04,980 but I can't do it anymore, but I'm able to balance it. 1930 01:28:04,980 --> 01:28:06,290 I'm angry. I'm always angry. 1931 01:28:06,290 --> 01:28:07,750 I'm angry at this country. 1932 01:28:07,750 --> 01:28:09,853 - I just want to try to do the right thing. 1933 01:28:11,660 --> 01:28:13,464 That's all I would say. 1934 01:29:16,090 --> 01:29:19,510 - Never really exposed my feelings 1935 01:29:19,510 --> 01:29:22,093 publicly like this in this venue, 1936 01:29:23,590 --> 01:29:25,830 but I'm doing it because... 1937 01:29:28,270 --> 01:29:29,103 I want to.