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John and I met online
when we were 19.

4
00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,040
He was American, from an
upper middle class family in Texas.

5
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,260
I saw him as my ticket out.

6
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,060
We had big dreams,
to have lots of babies.

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00:01:12,180 --> 00:01:13,160
âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

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00:01:14,220 --> 00:01:14,480
Yes.

9
00:01:15,100 --> 00:01:15,420
Very good.

10
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:16,220
Yeah.

11
00:01:16,260 --> 00:01:18,180
- Yeah.
- Good job.

12
00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:25,440
I really wanted my children to
be the best and the brightest.

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00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:28,400
I'm not going to let dummies
take over the world.

14
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:34,300
âRCHATTERINGÁ.

15
00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:41,220
I had been taught
America is the enemy.

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00:01:43,140 --> 00:01:46,260
But once I was in America,
I didn't want to leave.

17
00:01:50,420 --> 00:01:53,000
John was never going
to let us stay in America.

18
00:02:04,380 --> 00:02:06,020
My name is Tania Joya

19
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,300
and I was married to the
highest ranking American in ISIS.

20
00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,020
This is my story.

21
00:02:29,060 --> 00:02:32,300
I was born in 1983,
north-west of London.

22
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,080
But my parents are
Bangladeshi origin.

23
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,060
Growing up in the UK,

24
00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:42,060
there was a conflict of identity.

25
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,200
I couldn't identify as
being Bangladeshi,

26
00:02:46,020 --> 00:02:49,140
I don't have a Bangladeshi passport,
I barely speak the language.

27
00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:55,020
I understand I'm ethnically
Bengali but, even as a child,

28
00:02:55,260 --> 00:02:58,340
I had a lot of snobbery
against my own culture.

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00:02:59,300 --> 00:03:02,060
If anybody asked me what
I wanted to be, I would say,

30
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,000
"I want to grow up to
be an Englishwoman.

31
00:03:04,060 --> 00:03:06,260
They're so fair and
beautiful and free

32
00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,160
and they can wear
what they like and..."

33
00:03:08,260 --> 00:03:12,440
I know that, as a Bengali Muslim
girl, that's out of the question.

34
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,360
I wasn't raised as an extremist.

35
00:03:18,060 --> 00:03:22,040
Religion was just a way of
controlling the girls in particular,

36
00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,240
so that we wouldn't
be too westernized.

37
00:03:25,220 --> 00:03:28,480
In my family, western values
were seen as being haram,

38
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:30,260
which means forbidden.

39
00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,220
I wanted to be a dancer
when I was young.

40
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:39,000
I really liked boys to men and
âRLAUGHSÁ I was crazy about Madonna.

41
00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:44,080
I would always, like, perform for
my family, going "Like a virgin".

42
00:03:44,140 --> 00:03:45,320
All the time, they'd
all giggle and laugh

43
00:03:45,380 --> 00:03:47,180
and I didn't know what I was saying.

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00:03:49,100 --> 00:03:50,440
Being the youngest of four girls,

45
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,320
I needed to be the
center of attention,

46
00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:53,480
otherwise I'd get forgotten.

47
00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,080
But once I became a radical,
I threw that all away.

48
00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,160
My family lived in Harrow.

49
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,140
My Mom would
always do catering work,

50
00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,020
and my Dad, he had a lot
of problems keeping a job.

51
00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:15,360
In my neighbourhood, I
experienced racism every day.

52
00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:18,440
âRRALLY IN PROCESSIONÁ

53
00:04:19,060 --> 00:04:20,040
In the 80s and 90s,

54
00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:25,060
there were these clashes between
the skinheads and Asian groups.

55
00:04:27,020 --> 00:04:28,000
In the East End of London,

56
00:04:28,060 --> 00:04:31,100
the openly racist British
National Party take to the streets.

57
00:04:31,180 --> 00:04:34,020
The number of racial
attacks has doubled in a year.

58
00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,060
There have been 1500 cases
of harassment and assault

59
00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:38,460
directed mostly at Asians.

60
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,120
Our neighbours would
smash our windows.

61
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,040
They would always have German
Shepherd dogs that would attack us.

62
00:04:48,140 --> 00:04:51,220
They would poop on my parents' car.

63
00:04:52,100 --> 00:04:54,040
They treated us
like we were so alien.

64
00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,380
My parents would
have to call the police,

65
00:04:58,220 --> 00:05:00,260
but we knew that they
weren't going to help us.

66
00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:04,380
I developed a fear
of leaving my house.

67
00:05:11,180 --> 00:05:12,460
When we were in High School,

68
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,140
my family and I
moved to East London.

69
00:05:16,260 --> 00:05:21,140
It was a working class community
and people were far more religious.

70
00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:24,220
They were a lot less
westernized than I was.

71
00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:29,420
If I was wearing jeans,
or heels, or makeup,

72
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,380
just being feminine,
I would be *** shamed.

73
00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:37,300
Boys just started spreading
horrible rumors about me,

74
00:05:38,180 --> 00:05:40,240
so I didn't have any friends.

75
00:05:41,220 --> 00:05:43,280
I became so depressed and isolated,

76
00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:46,440
I was willing just to do
anything to make my life better.

77
00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,420
September 2001,

78
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,260
I come home from school
and I switch on the news

79
00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:01,040
and I see the images of the
planes flying into the twin towers.

80
00:06:01,100 --> 00:06:04,100
The United States has been
hit by what's been described

81
00:06:04,140 --> 00:06:06,400
as the worst act of terrorism
the world has ever seen.

82
00:06:06,460 --> 00:06:10,280
The plane has crashed
into the World Trade Center.

83
00:06:10,340 --> 00:06:11,460
We have no idea

84
00:06:12,060 --> 00:06:13,100
how many were on board

85
00:06:13,140 --> 00:06:15,160
or what the extent of
the injuries are right now.

86
00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,360
Oh, there's another one.
Another plane just hit.

87
00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:19,080
But I-- Oh my God!

88
00:06:19,140 --> 00:06:22,060
Another plane has just hit.
Explosion.

89
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:27,340
And we were shocked and we
was, like, just flabbergasted by it.

90
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:28,320
Horrified.

91
00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:33,320
They started reporting that it was
by somebody called Osama Bin Laden

92
00:06:33,380 --> 00:06:35,100
who I'd never heard of before.

93
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,080
People with links to the
Osama Bin Laden organization

94
00:06:39,140 --> 00:06:41,120
are responsible for today's attacks.

95
00:06:41,180 --> 00:06:42,380
And the terrorists are
trying to send a message.

96
00:06:42,420 --> 00:06:44,360
They have attacked
the most prominent

97
00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:46,220
landmark of American capitalism.

98
00:06:46,260 --> 00:06:48,220
We may be weeping over
the people who are dying,

99
00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:50,380
and in parts of the world
they're celebrating America's

100
00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:52,440
been given a taste of its
own medicine as they see it.

101
00:07:03,280 --> 00:07:04,220
The next day,

102
00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:07,260
in my politics class I
was sitting next to a girl

103
00:07:07,300 --> 00:07:10,000
who I really looked
up to and I said,

104
00:07:10,060 --> 00:07:13,080
"Wasn't it terrible what
happened on the news and

105
00:07:13,260 --> 00:07:15,480
the--, the twin towers
were attacked" and she said,

106
00:07:16,020 --> 00:07:18,020
"Is it so terrible?
Is it so bad?"

107
00:07:18,380 --> 00:07:20,180
And I was shocked. I was, like,

108
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,380
"Oh, maybe she couldn't hear me."
So I said, "Wasn't it horrible?"

109
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,200
And she said,
"Oh, you don't understand.

110
00:07:28,260 --> 00:07:31,000
Just come home to
my house after school

111
00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,220
and my Mom will
explain to you why it,

112
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:35,320
it's not so bad."

113
00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:39,420
I went to her house after school,

114
00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:42,420
and her Mom told me
who Osama Bin Laden was.

115
00:07:44,100 --> 00:07:46,020
He was a warrior.

116
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,300
He was the Robin Hood
of the Muslim community.

117
00:07:50,140 --> 00:07:54,080
He threw away a life of
luxury to be on the front lines.

118
00:07:55,420 --> 00:07:58,060
It was like a fairytale story.

119
00:07:58,220 --> 00:07:59,480
I was just taken with it.

120
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,140
I was, like, "Oh, I love this man.

121
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,120
He's a hero."

122
00:08:03,180 --> 00:08:08,080
âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ.

123
00:08:09,460 --> 00:08:11,260
They explained to me about jihad.

124
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,380
In a jihad, it's when you're
fighting conflict in your mind.

125
00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,080
Outward jihad is holy war.

126
00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:25,480
Osama Bin Laden was telling us
it's an obligation on every Muslim,

127
00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:28,460
when they're being
attacked, to fight back.

128
00:08:29,180 --> 00:08:34,060
âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ.

129
00:08:39,300 --> 00:08:43,020
As a 17, 18-year-old,
hearing all this,

130
00:08:43,060 --> 00:08:44,360
it seemed very appealing.

131
00:08:45,300 --> 00:08:48,160
I was feeding into
we're the victims,

132
00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:50,140
and I already knew
that and felt that.

133
00:08:52,340 --> 00:08:56,280
I remember hearing President
Bush speaking about a crusade.

134
00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,160
This crusade...

135
00:09:00,020 --> 00:09:02,080
....this war on terrorism,

136
00:09:03,060 --> 00:09:04,360
it is time for us to win

137
00:09:04,420 --> 00:09:07,180
the first war of the
twenty-first century decisively.

138
00:09:07,460 --> 00:09:09,100
That word crusade

139
00:09:09,140 --> 00:09:13,140
only confirmed our beliefs
that it's a war against Islam.

140
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,300
Slowly I stopped
dressing as western and

141
00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,040
I started wearing
more cultural clothes.

142
00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,360
Eventually, it was the hijab

143
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,420
and wearing the
jilbab which is the robes

144
00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,420
and I went into
school wearing a niqab.

145
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,260
One of the boys
called out to me to say,

146
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,040
"Hey, you're Osama Bin Laden's wife"

147
00:09:34,100 --> 00:09:35,460
and I turned around
and said, "I wish."

148
00:09:37,260 --> 00:09:43,300
I wanted to prove to the Muslims at
my school that I was a new person.

149
00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:50,480
I'm no longer that flirtatious,
fun, colourful Tania.

150
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,400
I am a holy righteous woman
who believes in Mohamed and God.

151
00:09:56,140 --> 00:10:00,280
It felt like I was invisible,
and I wanted to be invisible.

152
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,400
I didn't want to be Tania anymore.

153
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,440
Nobody knew or understood what was
going on with my psychologically.

154
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:18,080
I didn't have anyone to explain, you
know, you're being indoctrinated.

155
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:28,120
My radicalization absolutely
was a big FU to the UK,

156
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:31,320
because of the rejection that I
had felt my whole life growing up.

157
00:10:33,300 --> 00:10:38,100
I was really intrigued by
the idea of Muslim power,

158
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,240
because growing up I
felt very powerless and

159
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,480
I was a bit hungry for power.

160
00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,280
My parents were not happy at all.

161
00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,000
I remember my Mom saying,

162
00:10:54,060 --> 00:10:56,180
"Oh, you're
throwing away all your ambition."

163
00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,360
I was, like,
"What are you talking about?

164
00:10:58,420 --> 00:11:01,000
I have got lot of ambition.
I want to take over the world.

165
00:11:01,060 --> 00:11:02,460
Don't tell me that's not ambitious."

166
00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:07,100
My Dad used to yell at me.

167
00:11:07,220 --> 00:11:09,140
He was, like,
"I'm going to throw you out."

168
00:11:09,340 --> 00:11:12,040
I was, like, "Don't. You don't have
to, I'm going to leave, you know,

169
00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:13,300
I'm just...I'm working on it."

170
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,460
I didn't get along
with my Dad at all,

171
00:11:18,260 --> 00:11:20,160
I actually hated him a lot.

172
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,320
And I didn't like my
Mom because she always

173
00:11:24,380 --> 00:11:27,040
covered the wrong
doings that my Dad did.

174
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,460
I was really just so
desperate to leave my life.

175
00:11:33,220 --> 00:11:37,160
In my family's culture, girls don't
leave home unless they're married.

176
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,360
I didn't really feel
ready to get married,

177
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:44,080
but it was the only way out for me.

178
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,220
I wasn't going to allow my parents
to arrange a marriage for me.

179
00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,280
I always said no way.
I will pick myself.

180
00:11:55,320 --> 00:12:02,180
At school, we would exchange
magazines and material on Islam.

181
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:08,060
We used to get a lot of
information about the abuses

182
00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:10,400
that the American
military would commit.

183
00:12:11,380 --> 00:12:13,380
Raping women in Iraq,

184
00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,080
Abu Ghraib.

185
00:12:17,020 --> 00:12:21,440
The American military were
humiliating the Muslim population.

186
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,260
It made me angry.
It made everybody angry.

187
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,420
One of the magazines was
talking about John Walker Lind.

188
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,080
John Walker Lind.

189
00:12:31,140 --> 00:12:34,080
He went to the Middle East to
study Islam but joined the Taliban.

190
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,080
John Walker Lind will be charged
with conspiracy to kill Americans.

191
00:12:38,180 --> 00:12:41,340
My friends and I liked
John Walker Lind because

192
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,300
he was an American convert.

193
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,460
He fascinated us that he would

194
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,420
leave somewhere like
American to be part of our world.

195
00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,360
To us he was just a
hero and it was, like,

196
00:12:56,420 --> 00:13:00,100
"Oh, wow, if only I could have
someone like him to marry.

197
00:13:00,420 --> 00:13:06,020
âRPEOPLE SHOUTING IN RALLYÁ

198
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,040
In 2002, I was at a rally in London.

199
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,340
Some Muslim men
were giving out fliers,

200
00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:20,280
and on the fliers was the
website Muslim Matrimony.

201
00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:23,040
It's not even Muslim dating.

202
00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:25,340
You go there to look
for somebody to marry.

203
00:13:29,060 --> 00:13:30,360
So I went online.

204
00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:33,460
I was curious to
see what I would find.

205
00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:38,160
There were Muslim men
from all over the world.

206
00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,260
I wrote that I am a devout
Sunni Muslim looking to travel.

207
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,440
That I like cooking.
I'm very domesticated.

208
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,220
Want to have lots of babies.

209
00:13:52,380 --> 00:13:56,360
I'm looking for a very
pious Muslim husband.

210
00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:58,340
Was very simple.

211
00:14:01,180 --> 00:14:03,120
I didn't put a picture of myself.

212
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:08,100
Images in Islam, a lot of
people think it's forbidden.

213
00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:15,140
And bang, you get 600 messages.

214
00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,360
A man named Yahya found me.

215
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:23,460
Yahya is the Arabic
equivalent of John.

216
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,420
He was a white upper
middle class American.

217
00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,300
He was in Syria at the time,
studying Arabic and Damascus.

218
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:34,440
He was the same age as me, 19.

219
00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:36,460
And he kept pestering me.

220
00:14:37,020 --> 00:14:39,040
He kept messaging
me and I was, like, no,

221
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,340
I'm really looking for someone
more experienced with life

222
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,100
and you're just a bit too young

223
00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,000
and I don't really understand
how and why an American

224
00:14:46,100 --> 00:14:49,000
from a upper middle
class family is in Damascus.

225
00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:50,340
But I was also very intrigued.

226
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,360
After September 11, I watched
a lot of Al-Qaeda propaganda.

227
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,280
Tough warrior men
fighting a holy war,

228
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,320
and taking care of women
and protecting them.

229
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,040
I totally fell for it,

230
00:15:05,140 --> 00:15:08,000
thinking I'm just going
to get married and

231
00:15:08,060 --> 00:15:11,300
travel to the Middle East
and live an adventure.

232
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,380
I thought it would be very
romantic, like Aladdin. âRCHUCKLESÁ

233
00:15:16,020 --> 00:15:18,280
I saw Yahya as my ticket out.

234
00:15:27,420 --> 00:15:31,020
In 2014, I was investigating
anyone I could find

235
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,480
who was important in
the ecosystem of ISIS.

236
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,480
I met a very influential
figure online in Australia.

237
00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:39,160
Musa Cerantonio.

238
00:15:40,180 --> 00:15:44,080
Musa was part of a certain
sect of English-speaking jihadists

239
00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:45,400
who were loyal to ISIS.

240
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,220
And he said, "I have a
teacher, his name's Yahya".

241
00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,080
And Musa suggested that Yahya

242
00:15:52,140 --> 00:15:55,200
was part of the leadership
structures of ISIS itself.

243
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,440
Musa then told me that
Yahya was American.

244
00:16:00,340 --> 00:16:03,320
That seemed like something
that I should be investigating.

245
00:16:05,060 --> 00:16:07,260
Yahya had a lot of pseudonyms,

246
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,100
and there were little breadcrumbs
that he left in those names.

247
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,220
If you call yourself Abu Hassan,

248
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,180
that suggests they have
a son named Hassan.

249
00:16:16,340 --> 00:16:19,080
If you call yourself
Yahya al-Bahrumi,

250
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:20,380
that name Bahrumi

251
00:16:20,420 --> 00:16:23,080
suggests that you have
something to do with Mediterranean.

252
00:16:24,100 --> 00:16:27,220
He chose names that were
just idiosyncratic enough

253
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:31,140
that if there was someone
who really wanted to dig in there,

254
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:32,400
they might be able to find him

255
00:16:33,220 --> 00:16:34,480
and that person
turned out to be me.

256
00:16:36,380 --> 00:16:40,080
Yahya was an American
named John Georgelas.

257
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,140
When I learned about John Georgelas,

258
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,480
I showed up at his last
known address in America

259
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,400
which was his parents'
home in Dallas, Texas.

260
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:59,460
Nice houses inhabited
by doctors, low crime area.

261
00:17:00,260 --> 00:17:04,040
But when I found out that John lived
in this pleasantly boring place,

262
00:17:04,100 --> 00:17:05,040
I was shocked.

263
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:09,460
John's father came out
and he spoke to me briefly.

264
00:17:10,180 --> 00:17:12,100
It was with exactly
the kind of sadness

265
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,280
that you'd expect from a father
who has, in effect, lost a son.

266
00:17:16,360 --> 00:17:19,380
He said that his son had
gone down the wrong path

267
00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,060
over and over in his life.

268
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,240
The family had rescued him

269
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,180
with money, with
housing, with support.

270
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,120
They had given him every chance

271
00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:30,160
to get on a better path and
he chose the wrong one.

272
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,240
John came from a family
that was extremely prosperous.

273
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,160
His grandfather was a
war hero in the US Army,

274
00:17:39,380 --> 00:17:42,480
and his father had served in
the Air Force as a physician.

275
00:17:43,140 --> 00:17:44,440
These are real patriots.

276
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,360
When John decides to rebel,

277
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,480
he found outlets that were
as diametrically opposed

278
00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:55,200
to his family's patriotism
as he could find.

279
00:17:58,460 --> 00:18:02,220
By the time he went
off to college in 2001,

280
00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:03,480
the 911 attacks would happen.

281
00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:08,180
John decided to go into a
mosque and convert to Islam.

282
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,020
I can hear you.
The rest of the world hears you.

283
00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:17,020
And the people who
knocked these buildings down

284
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,080
will hear all of us soon.

285
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:23,200
âRCHEERING AND APPLAUSINGÁ.

286
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,220
In the days after 911,

287
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:28,200
you had this moment of binarism

288
00:18:28,260 --> 00:18:30,220
where you could be
on the side of America

289
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:32,340
or you could be on the
side of Osama Bin Laden.

290
00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:37,240
For someone like John,

291
00:18:37,460 --> 00:18:41,240
converting to Islam is a
really potent way to rebel.

292
00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:46,020
So he sells his truck

293
00:18:46,420 --> 00:18:49,480
and moves to Damascus,
to study classical Arabic.

294
00:18:52,460 --> 00:18:53,440
While in Syria,

295
00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,260
he slid deeper and deeper into

296
00:18:56,320 --> 00:19:00,060
a really extreme form
of global jihadism.

297
00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:04,460
âRFOREIGN LANGUAGEÁ

298
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:09,240
The pathway to radicalization
is certainly not unique to Islam.

299
00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:12,360
It often starts with an
individual who's vulnerable,

300
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,280
lost and looking for answers,

301
00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:17,180
and if the right group comes
along with the right story,

302
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,340
they can usually
win that person over.

303
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:22,120
The Al-Qaeda narrative of

304
00:19:22,220 --> 00:19:26,100
unfair discrimination against
the Muslim community, the Omah,

305
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,260
was felt very, very strongly.

306
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,260
They portrayed themselves
as communities under attack.

307
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:37,140
âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ.

308
00:19:43,140 --> 00:19:44,420
The notion of jihad

309
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,140
i--, is a very
contested notion that,

310
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,180
by the way, does not
necessarily mean fighting.

311
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,380
For most Muslims, the
idea of the greater Jihad

312
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,200
is actually supposed to be your

313
00:19:56,260 --> 00:19:58,380
own personal struggle
to be a better person.

314
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:04,220
The lesser jihad is to take up arms
in defense if you are under attack.

315
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,260
A lot of followers and
supporters of Al-Qaeda

316
00:20:08,420 --> 00:20:11,100
comfortably describe
themselves as jihadists

317
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,040
because they saw themselves
as defending their community.

318
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,160
The religious text just gives
them some kind of veneer of validity

319
00:20:19,340 --> 00:20:21,140
but groups like Al-Qaeda

320
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,100
are not so much about
religion as they are about power.

321
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,100
John and I would email quite often.

322
00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:37,380
He would say to
me, my weapon is not

323
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,040
the sword.
My weapon's the keyboard.

324
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:46,280
He told me that he's very good at
coding with computers and hacking.

325
00:20:48,140 --> 00:20:52,060
On the Muslim Matrimony website,
you can't say words like jihad,

326
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:54,060
but we would go around it

327
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:57,340
so it was very clear that
our values were the same.

328
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,080
Jihad, children, dying, heaven.

329
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,320
I thought he was going to
be the key to heaven for me,

330
00:21:06,460 --> 00:21:09,140
because he was so devout.

331
00:21:10,220 --> 00:21:14,080
But he wasn't just this
rigid conservative guy.

332
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,340
He was funny and charming.

333
00:21:19,260 --> 00:21:22,080
And, you know, his photos, he
was cute, he was very handsome.

334
00:21:23,380 --> 00:21:27,100
What I really liked about
John was that he was a convert.

335
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:32,260
Cat Stevens had converted to Islam,
so we all looked up to him.

336
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:37,000
We loved his music and we all
wanted to marry a Cat Stevens.

337
00:21:37,060 --> 00:21:40,460
âRLAUGHSÁ And John was the closest
thing I could get to a Cat Stevens

338
00:21:41,020 --> 00:21:44,060
and I wanted to show my
friends that I could get that.

339
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:51,040
John and I only spoke
online for about three months.

340
00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:53,300
I hadn't even spoken
to him on the phone.

341
00:21:53,380 --> 00:21:56,440
He agreed to come to
the UK to meet my family.

342
00:21:59,180 --> 00:22:01,280
He came to dinner
at my uncle's house.

343
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,100
When I saw John, I was not happy.

344
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:06,380
He looked really rough.

345
00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:11,040
He had his linen pants
and his loose shirt.

346
00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:13,300
His running shoes were terrible.

347
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,140
It wasn't the nice pictured
he'd shown me in a email

348
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,400
where he looked all polished.

349
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:20,300
I was all dressed up in my, like,

350
00:22:20,340 --> 00:22:22,140
fancy hijab and jilbab

351
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,420
that my grandmother
had bought me from Dubai.

352
00:22:25,220 --> 00:22:26,480
Of course, John didn't like that.

353
00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:30,380
He wanted me to look
like a good pious wife.

354
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,280
I made this really nice dessert and
it had walnuts in it and he said,

355
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,180
"Oh, I don't eat
food with nuts in it"

356
00:22:40,220 --> 00:22:42,300
and I was, like, "Well I
don't like fussy eaters,

357
00:22:42,340 --> 00:22:45,000
and I made this for you
so you're going to eat it."

358
00:22:46,060 --> 00:22:48,420
I remember telling my
aunt, "I don't like him."

359
00:22:49,340 --> 00:22:52,140
But they accepted
John because he was

360
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:54,460
a white upper middle class American.

361
00:22:55,020 --> 00:22:57,400
His Dad was a doctor
and my Mom thought,

362
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,400
"Ah, well, she gets into
trouble, they'll take care of her."

363
00:23:02,060 --> 00:23:04,180
So I just kept my mouth shut.

364
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,120
Three days after we met,
we did our religious ceremony.

365
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:14,020
We did it very quietly.

366
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,300
My Uncle had appointed
an Imam to be my chaperon.

367
00:23:22,020 --> 00:23:24,280
The other relatives who were
supposed to show up as witnesses

368
00:23:24,340 --> 00:23:25,480
didn't attend,

369
00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:28,440
and John, none of
his family would come

370
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,100
because they were unhappy
with him being a Muslim

371
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,020
and unhappy with him getting
married at such a young age.

372
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,000
I, I was just sobbing my eyes out.

373
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:43,100
John was a stranger and one
that I'm not very attracted to.

374
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:48,440
But, you know, for centuries, women
from my culture had to do this.

375
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:53,100
They married men that other
people chose and it worked out.

376
00:23:54,460 --> 00:23:58,480
I was taught by my Mom
falling in love was dangerous.

377
00:24:00,020 --> 00:24:02,080
Love comes after marriage,

378
00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:06,380
and it takes years so I
just figured this is how

379
00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:09,120
the world has always been up until

380
00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:14,020
a hundred years ago when romance
became a factor. âRCHUCKLESÁ

381
00:24:16,420 --> 00:24:20,040
Then John stepped
on my foot on purpose.

382
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,300
I was..."What are you doing?"

383
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,340
And then he was like, "That's
what we do in Greek marriages.

384
00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:29,320
The man steps on the woman's
foot to say he's in charge."

385
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:33,080
That was my wedding day.

386
00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:48,020
After the wedding,
John and I moved to Texas.

387
00:24:49,300 --> 00:24:52,280
We lived in an
apartment in North Dallas,

388
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,200
and we went to visit
John's parents in Plano

389
00:24:56,460 --> 00:24:59,080
and I was just, my jaw dropped.

390
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:00,140
This is the life.

391
00:25:00,180 --> 00:25:04,080
I was, like, I have never even
seen a place so beautiful like this.

392
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,400
John's parents had
a big swimming pool.

393
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,200
I didn't know how to swim.

394
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:13,420
So John taught me how to swim,

395
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:18,400
and that was really cute
and he was a great swimmer.

396
00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:21,220
That was the first time
I saw his playful side.

397
00:25:21,380 --> 00:25:23,120
I thought it was adorable.

398
00:25:24,340 --> 00:25:28,220
He would always go skateboarding
and it was cute to see him do that.

399
00:25:28,340 --> 00:25:30,100
I loved his American side.

400
00:25:30,420 --> 00:25:33,120
That's where I
became attached to him.

401
00:25:36,020 --> 00:25:40,100
John's parents, Tim and Martha,
were Greek Orthodox Christian.

402
00:25:41,060 --> 00:25:44,260
John's Mom was always,
like, nice and loving.

403
00:25:44,420 --> 00:25:47,380
She was more loving
than my own mother was.

404
00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:52,140
John's Dad, he was
really well accomplished.

405
00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:56,300
John always felt like he
was frowned on by his father.

406
00:25:56,360 --> 00:25:57,300
He wasn't tall enough.

407
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:00,300
He wasn't athletic enough,
you know, he wasn't his Dad.

408
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,020
They never wanted to
discuss religion with us.

409
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:09,360
If religion was spoken about,
it would cause an argument.

410
00:26:11,260 --> 00:26:16,100
John and I were very much
stuck in an extremist mindset.

411
00:26:21,060 --> 00:26:23,000
We were very, very isolated.

412
00:26:23,260 --> 00:26:27,200
We didn't go to mosques 'cause we
believed mosques are full of spies.

413
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,180
I stayed most of the time at home.

414
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:32,100
I wasn't allowed to watch TV.

415
00:26:32,260 --> 00:26:35,340
I always wore fashionable
clothes underneath my robes,

416
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,220
but John insisted no more heels.

417
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,180
John put a lot of pressure on me
to change my name from Tania.

418
00:26:43,260 --> 00:26:45,340
He said you have to take
an Arabic Muslim name.

419
00:26:46,420 --> 00:26:48,280
So I went by the name Yahya.

420
00:26:50,020 --> 00:26:52,480
When I got married to John,
he was now in charge of me.

421
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,420
If I disobeyed him, I
was disobeying God

422
00:26:55,460 --> 00:26:58,000
because the scripture says

423
00:26:58,140 --> 00:27:00,040
obey those in authority over you

424
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:03,120
and we believed only
men that are in authority.

425
00:27:03,460 --> 00:27:05,400
John became my demi-god.

426
00:27:07,140 --> 00:27:09,460
But John and I had big dreams.

427
00:27:10,340 --> 00:27:13,480
Let's have seven sons,
one to take over each continent.

428
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:17,420
We both believed to live
your life in the path of Allah

429
00:27:18,180 --> 00:27:21,240
means raising militant kids.

430
00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:23,260
So I got pregnant.

431
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,420
My first son, Michael,
was born on my 21st birthday.

432
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,020
I loved, I loved that he
was born on my birthday.

433
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:37,060
I was always encouraging him

434
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:39,080
that you're going to grow up
and be a soldier for God.

435
00:27:39,140 --> 00:27:40,320
You're going to be a warrior.

436
00:27:42,020 --> 00:27:45,240
At the time, I thought we were
only doing good for the world.

437
00:27:49,380 --> 00:27:53,180
So how do you reconcile
living in the United States,

438
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,240
but also hating America and
supporting killing Americans?

439
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:04,360
As extremist Muslims, you can't live
in any country that's considered,

440
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,280
like, Dar al-Harb, a land of war

441
00:28:07,460 --> 00:28:11,340
unless you have some per--,
like a real legitimate reason,

442
00:28:11,380 --> 00:28:15,060
like either you're stuck
there or you're working

443
00:28:15,220 --> 00:28:17,360
to ha--, get the means to get out.

444
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,100
Or, the third is to attack.

445
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,120
So John and I, we came to America

446
00:28:23,180 --> 00:28:27,340
so that he could earn money
so that we could go back to Syria.

447
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,120
John got a job at Rack Space.

448
00:28:37,020 --> 00:28:40,360
They web posted websites
for Fortune 500 companies.

449
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:48,460
At the same time, John was talking
on a website called Jihad Unspun.

450
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,320
This website had all
Al-Qaeda propaganda.

451
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,460
They were selling videos
by Osama Bin Laden,

452
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,020
and John was fascinated
and he loved this website

453
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,180
and he reached out and he said,

454
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,020
"If I can help you with any
technical work, or any coding,

455
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:05,220
I'm happy to do that."

456
00:29:06,260 --> 00:29:10,420
John's friends and I
were saying don't trust it.

457
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,340
Like you can't have a
website promoting Mujahideen

458
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:18,100
and Jihad and think that
it's a legitimate website.

459
00:29:19,060 --> 00:29:20,440
I kept, like, having

460
00:29:21,060 --> 00:29:23,400
the visions and dreams
that he's going to go to prison,

461
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:28,280
and he just thought I was just being
silly and worried for no reason.

462
00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:33,420
April 2006, we were called to pray.

463
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,460
âRFOREIGN LANGUAGEÁ

464
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,440
John showed me this video.

465
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,200
It's a song called
âRSPECIALIST TERMINOLOGYÁ.

466
00:29:45,020 --> 00:29:48,340
It's a really beautiful
song about the strangers.

467
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,120
It's a line using Islamic
scripture saying that

468
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,180
the believers will come in
this world and live as strangers.

469
00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:59,020
You know, basically, alienated
and blessed are the strangers.

470
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,340
Right after listening to that song,

471
00:30:02,380 --> 00:30:04,020
that's when the knock
on the door came.

472
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,200
âRDOOR KNOCKINGÁ

473
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:07,300
They said, "Open the door. It's FBI.

474
00:30:07,340 --> 00:30:08,340
Put your hands up."

475
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,460
The FBI Agents separated us.

476
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,340
They went through all our
stuff and made a big mess,

477
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,300
you know, trying to look for
evidence that could incriminate him.

478
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,020
He was arrested.

479
00:30:23,380 --> 00:30:25,420
He said, "I'll be home
after the weekend."

480
00:30:30,060 --> 00:30:33,460
John was arrested for illegally
accessing and damaging an account

481
00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:36,380
controlled by the American
Israel Public Affairs Committee.

482
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,200
A pro-Israel lobbying organization.

483
00:30:41,020 --> 00:30:43,100
John is eventually
sentenced to 34 months

484
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,320
in a federal prison
in Seagoville, Texas.

485
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:51,280
He spent a lot of it with a
small group of Muslim prisoners

486
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,200
and with Islamic texts.

487
00:30:54,260 --> 00:30:57,100
These weren't
necessarily jihadist texts,

488
00:30:57,220 --> 00:30:59,460
but they were the
classical sources of Islam.

489
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,320
There's a tendency to assume

490
00:31:02,380 --> 00:31:05,480
that jihadists
are not really intellectual types.

491
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,240
You know, they're interested in

492
00:31:07,380 --> 00:31:10,320
really counter-intellectual things
like cutting off people's heads,

493
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:12,360
shooting guns into the sky.

494
00:31:13,100 --> 00:31:15,380
But his pursuits were
deeply intellectual.

495
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,400
This is a guy who had
immersed himself in Islam,

496
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,280
who had learned classical Arabic.

497
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,020
He was thinking back into
the Muslim past and finding

498
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,240
what the deep obligations
are of Muslims in the present.

499
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,380
In principle, among
those obligations,

500
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,000
was creating a Muslim
state, the Caliphate.

501
00:31:35,180 --> 00:31:38,200
The Caliphate is kind
of the reconstitution

502
00:31:38,260 --> 00:31:39,480
of the Muslim community

503
00:31:40,020 --> 00:31:43,340
as a political
and religious entity.

504
00:31:44,220 --> 00:31:46,000
For supporters of Al-Qaeda,

505
00:31:46,060 --> 00:31:49,160
the idea that a Caliphate
might come was a certainty,

506
00:31:49,220 --> 00:31:51,080
but they thought it would
be hundreds of years,

507
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,380
maybe thousands of years.

508
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,040
Muslims like John thought

509
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,300
the highest expression of
the religion would be to revive

510
00:31:57,340 --> 00:31:59,020
the Caliphate now.

511
00:31:59,340 --> 00:32:00,300
Not tomorrow.

512
00:32:00,380 --> 00:32:01,380
Not a year from now,

513
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,340
not when most Muslims are
on board with it, but right now.

514
00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:12,240
While John was in prison,

515
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:16,180
I was living in an apartment
that his parents were paying for.

516
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,320
John was trying to
make me go to Nigeria

517
00:32:19,420 --> 00:32:24,420
to be with other Islamists and
he was saying that I have to.

518
00:32:26,100 --> 00:32:30,480
That was actually the very first
time in our marriage that I said no.

519
00:32:31,420 --> 00:32:32,340
No, way.

520
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,220
Having space from John
gave me room to grow.

521
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,220
I got to have my television,
my large screen television.

522
00:32:42,260 --> 00:32:43,360
I got to watch PBS.

523
00:32:43,420 --> 00:32:47,060
I got to watch things that
he wanted to keep from me.

524
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,180
I was able to spend
more time outside,

525
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,380
and I saw how friendly people were.

526
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,180
I'd be covered and I was
miserable being covered

527
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,140
and some girl in, like, short
shorts is jogging, saying hi to us.

528
00:33:01,180 --> 00:33:04,220
I'm, like, "What
the--? She just said hi.

529
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,260
That's crazy."

530
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,400
And then...but
everybody was saying hi.

531
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,100
M..., my heart melted.

532
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,020
I started wearing my
regular clothes outside.

533
00:33:15,020 --> 00:33:16,420
It was something I felt I had to do

534
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,460
because I did not like
people viewing me as a threat,

535
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,300
'cause I liked them.
I wanted my neighbours to say hello.

536
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,140
I wanted to say
hello to them without

537
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,200
them thinking negatively of me.

538
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,020
I would have taken off my hijab but

539
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,420
that was pushing it too
far for John. âRLAUGHSÁ

540
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,320
I would say those were the
best three years of my marriage

541
00:33:37,380 --> 00:33:40,160
out of the ten years that
we were together 'cause

542
00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:44,440
it's where I was able to grow and,

543
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,320
you know, put my foot down and
I, I started thinking for myself.

544
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,100
Tonight, I can report to the
American people and to the world

545
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,480
that the United States has
conducted an operation that killed

546
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,380
Osama Bin Laden,
the leader of Al-Qaeda.

547
00:34:09,180 --> 00:34:11,280
Spontaneous, patriotic celebration

548
00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:14,420
at the death of public enemy
number one outside the White House.

549
00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:18,160
The United States has the
body of Osama Bin Laden,

550
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,340
the mastermind of 911,
the architect of Al-Qaeda.

551
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,260
Just think of what this means.

552
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,460
In May of 2011,
Osama Bin Laden is killed.

553
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,220
You hear about it.
Tell me what the reaction is.

554
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:36,320
Well I cried the whole day.

555
00:34:37,340 --> 00:34:43,100
I was very, very sad
and I was angry. âRSIGHSÁ.

556
00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:46,400
And, like...I wasn't
upset that he was dead,

557
00:34:46,460 --> 00:34:49,340
I was more upset with the lies.

558
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:51,480
He got killed o--, on land,

559
00:34:52,020 --> 00:34:53,440
but they took him out on a ship.

560
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,020
I don't know.

561
00:34:55,060 --> 00:34:57,120
Maybe I'm d--, everyone's
going to be made at me but...

562
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,140
could have some level
of respect for the dead.

563
00:35:02,220 --> 00:35:05,240
He wasn't like some
common person, you know?

564
00:35:06,380 --> 00:35:09,200
It just...they could, the
least they could have done is

565
00:35:09,260 --> 00:35:11,140
given his body back to his family

566
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,280
and they always say the stupid,
the same thing about when s--,

567
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,120
one of these
leaders, jihadists, die.

568
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,060
"Oh, they squealed like little girls

569
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:22,200
and hid behind their
wives and children."

570
00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,460
That's all bull---.
These guys are not cowards.

571
00:35:26,180 --> 00:35:31,440
They face death every single
day for 20 something years.

572
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,080
Go in and out of
prisons being tortured,

573
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,060
still care about their cause,

574
00:35:36,140 --> 00:35:38,260
and they're going to hid behind
a woman and their children?

575
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:40,320
No they're not.
They're not.

576
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,260
Even suicide bombers,
it's not a cowardly act.

577
00:35:43,380 --> 00:35:47,120
âRCHUCKLESÁ
It takes courage to kill yourself,

578
00:35:47,380 --> 00:35:50,020
but it takes courage
also to fight a war.

579
00:35:50,340 --> 00:35:55,200
Let me ask you something
because i--, I can sense---

580
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,400
When I'm going to my Muslim life,

581
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,460
when you, when you ask
me about how I felt back then,

582
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:05,220
I can only tell you
what Nija thought,

583
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:11,040
and, but m--, me
now isn't, I just, like...

584
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,120
it's a different, it's like
two different people,

585
00:36:16,020 --> 00:36:18,000
you know, because I'm not the same.

586
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:25,240
A person's belief system changes and
that person is, is a new version.

587
00:36:26,100 --> 00:36:29,120
In ten years, who knows what
version I'm going to be then.

588
00:36:30,340 --> 00:36:32,380
It's not a bad thing,
I think it's kind of good.

589
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,140
âRSIGHSÁ.
I'm growing.

590
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,000
When John came out of prison,

591
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:52,220
John was always saying as
soon as I come off probation,

592
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,000
we're leaving straightaway.

593
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,080
I didn't want to leave.

594
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,460
I was pregnant with my third son.

595
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,080
I was just so comfortable in my home

596
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,420
and I just wanted, like,
a nest for my babies.

597
00:37:06,260 --> 00:37:08,420
I didn't want to
disrupt my kids' lives

598
00:37:10,220 --> 00:37:15,260
but I depended on him to look after
me, and I couldn't go get a job.

599
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:17,480
I didn't even graduate
from High School.

600
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,340
And whether I agree with
him or not, I had to obey him.

601
00:37:23,180 --> 00:37:28,120
And Egypt was the
ideal place for John to go.

602
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,340
âRPEOPLE SHOUTING AND CHANTINGÁ.

603
00:37:34,420 --> 00:37:36,020
The Arab Spring Protests

604
00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:38,460
have now led to the downfall of
dictators in Tunisia,

605
00:37:39,020 --> 00:37:40,040
Egypt and Libya.

606
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:41,100
In just a few months,

607
00:37:41,140 --> 00:37:43,300
so much has changed
with new parties,

608
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,420
newspapers and the
liberating force of social media,

609
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:49,360
that the old Arab world
can't be reinvented.

610
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,180
Egypt in 2011 was
a very different place.

611
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,060
The Arab Spring had happened
and John thought that Egypt

612
00:37:57,100 --> 00:37:59,440
was the place where
Islamists could come together

613
00:38:00,020 --> 00:38:03,200
and plot to figure out a way
to implement an Islamic state.

614
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,200
There was no government
in Egypt for over a year.

615
00:38:10,220 --> 00:38:15,120
It gave us a lot of freedom to just
say whatever we believed online.

616
00:38:27,460 --> 00:38:29,100
John had a blog.

617
00:38:29,220 --> 00:38:33,100
On John's blog he translated
every bit of information

618
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,260
from every scholar he
could get his hands on

619
00:38:35,340 --> 00:38:38,260
about the requirements
to establish a Caliphate.

620
00:38:40,380 --> 00:38:45,020
This drew attention from all
different types of Muslims who

621
00:38:45,060 --> 00:38:48,380
were also seeking and wondering
why we don't have a state.

622
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,340
It wasn't as if everybody
just immediately understood

623
00:39:05,380 --> 00:39:07,020
what a Caliphate was,

624
00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:11,360
and John thought his
role was to educate people

625
00:39:11,420 --> 00:39:14,060
about this obligation that,

626
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,240
once a Caliphate exists,
then you have to go to it.

627
00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:19,200
You have to pledge
your loyalty to it.

628
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,400
More and more of his
essay were describing

629
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,480
very specific obligations of
violence in defense of Islam.

630
00:39:30,460 --> 00:39:33,020
And it reflected the view of ISIS.

631
00:39:35,260 --> 00:39:39,400
When the Islamic State
developed in Iraq in the mid-2000s,

632
00:39:39,460 --> 00:39:43,280
it was a movement that had
decided as a matter of doctrine

633
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,460
that it would be as violent,
as intolerant as possible.

634
00:39:50,220 --> 00:39:54,140
To ISIS, savagery wasn't a
means to an end, it was the end.

635
00:39:55,460 --> 00:39:58,400
The Islamic State was more
violent, more aggressive,

636
00:39:58,460 --> 00:40:01,420
more vocal with its ambitions
and what it wanted to do,

637
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,280
which was to
actually rule territory.

638
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:14,280
Al-Qaeda as a below ground
military organization was cellular.

639
00:40:14,380 --> 00:40:18,320
You have a small Al-Qaeda group
here, small Al-Qaeda group there.

640
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,240
ISIS was a mass movement.

641
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,340
It is we need all
Muslims to come together.

642
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,040
All to come to a
particular patch of land.

643
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:33,240
They didn't want to be a
secretive Delta Force in caves,

644
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,180
they wanted a come one, come
all approach to building a state.

645
00:40:38,460 --> 00:40:42,260
During the time when John
and Tania were in Egypt,

646
00:40:42,460 --> 00:40:46,220
ISIS hadn't yet said
we are the Caliphate.

647
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,080
It was still trying to
expand its territory.

648
00:40:49,420 --> 00:40:53,400
But it seemed more and more like
the thing that John specifically

649
00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:57,080
was longing for in
telling his followers

650
00:40:57,140 --> 00:40:59,380
to look for so that they can
support it when it arrived.

651
00:41:08,260 --> 00:41:09,320
Okay, read to Mommy.

652
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:17,160
People have many
questions about Mars.

653
00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:19,160
I didn't get to talk online much.

654
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,260
My hands were full with cooking,
and cleaning, and babies, and

655
00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:23,220
home-schooling.

656
00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:30,360
At this time, John and I had
three young children, all boys.

657
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,160
Very good.

658
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:38,200
- Yeah!
- Yay.

659
00:41:38,260 --> 00:41:39,460
Get him to sit closer to you.

660
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:40,420
What's this then?

661
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:43,140
âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

662
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:43,440
âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

663
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,400
Yay.

664
00:41:49,060 --> 00:41:50,160
When we first got to Egypt,

665
00:41:50,220 --> 00:41:53,080
we lived in a condo and
it was really hoity-toity.

666
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,260
We couldn't actually
afford it but we tried.

667
00:41:57,220 --> 00:41:59,040
I love home decorating.

668
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,360
I had lanterns that were
handmade in Arabic script.

669
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,060
I had a couch that was custom made.

670
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,120
I had put so much effort into
building my home to be beautiful.

671
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,480
John's occupation and
how we paid the bills was

672
00:42:20,020 --> 00:42:22,180
he was a translator for
the Government of Qatar.

673
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,480
He was also teaching at
an American private school,

674
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,260
but I couldn't put my kids
in school there because

675
00:42:30,300 --> 00:42:32,420
private schools are very expensive.

676
00:42:33,260 --> 00:42:34,440
So I had to home school.

677
00:42:35,460 --> 00:42:38,460
That was also my way
of preventing them from

678
00:42:39,020 --> 00:42:40,460
mixing with non-Muslim kids.

679
00:42:41,180 --> 00:42:44,260
John and I were very
afraid of what our kids

680
00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:46,160
would pick up and learn from them.

681
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,280
Where is the colour
âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ?

682
00:42:50,380 --> 00:42:52,460
- Uh, âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.
- Where's âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ?

683
00:42:53,180 --> 00:42:54,400
- There.
- âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ. Good boy.

684
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,040
Where is âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ?

685
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:57,240
Uh, there.

686
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,340
I really wanted my children to
be the best and the brightest.

687
00:43:02,260 --> 00:43:07,080
Uh...there. There.

688
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,080
Yes.

689
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,200
I was like, okay, we
got a lot of competition.

690
00:43:10,260 --> 00:43:12,380
We got the Chinese,
and we got Americans.

691
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,480
You gotta outsmart our enemies.

692
00:43:16,100 --> 00:43:19,340
So I put a strong emphasis
on them learning to read.

693
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:22,160
- Read this word.
- âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

694
00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:26,260
What does this word say?

695
00:43:26,300 --> 00:43:28,020
Read it, read it and count.

696
00:43:28,460 --> 00:43:31,280
- âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.
- Very good. Very good.

697
00:43:31,340 --> 00:43:34,280
I made sure Michael learned
how to read by the age of three.

698
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,400
With Laith, I learned about a
program called Your Baby Can Read.

699
00:43:38,460 --> 00:43:41,400
Just DVDs and flash cards,
two hours every day.

700
00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:42,300
Ready?

701
00:43:42,340 --> 00:43:43,420
- Yeah.
- Look.

702
00:43:46,100 --> 00:43:49,460
âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

703
00:43:51,300 --> 00:43:52,080
God.

704
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,400
Laith learned to
read at nine months.

705
00:43:54,460 --> 00:43:55,480
Allah.

706
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,000
Write in Arabic. âRLAUGHSÁ.

707
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:12,280
People would ask me, like,
what drives you to do that?

708
00:44:13,060 --> 00:44:16,060
And I was like, I'm not going to
let dummies take over the world,

709
00:44:16,140 --> 00:44:18,100
you know, they've
gotta be super smart.

710
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:19,360
They've gotta be wicked smart.

711
00:44:21,220 --> 00:44:25,280
Deadliest. Warrior.
Deadliest warrior.

712
00:44:26,140 --> 00:44:29,460
Deadliest warrior.
Deadliest warrior.

713
00:44:31,060 --> 00:44:32,380
Deadliest warrior.

714
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:34,340
Fight.

715
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,060
Everybody looked up to me

716
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,480
for being a good mother and
devoting myself to his learning,

717
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,300
and it really felt like,
"Wow, I succeeded.

718
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:46,020
I can turn babies into geniuses."

719
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:49,420
Their education was
really important to me,

720
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,120
but it was like a
double-edged sword.

721
00:44:53,340 --> 00:44:57,440
Just seeing how incredibly
smart they were made me realize,

722
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,100
John, I really want
them to go to university

723
00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:03,040
rather than destroy society.

724
00:45:03,220 --> 00:45:05,420
I really want them to
contribute to the world.

725
00:45:07,060 --> 00:45:08,320
They had so much potential.

726
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:13,140
But John wouldn't have it.

727
00:45:13,460 --> 00:45:15,280
He was, like, no.

728
00:45:16,060 --> 00:45:18,120
They don't need a western education.

729
00:45:18,180 --> 00:45:19,400
They don't need university.

730
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,440
They need an Islamic education.

731
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:27,340
John would take Michael out
to the desert with his friends.

732
00:45:28,140 --> 00:45:30,300
They would go shooting
sparrows and things.

733
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,280
Michael didn't like it
'cause he loved animals

734
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,220
and he thought it was really
sad to be shooting birds and stuff.

735
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:38,360
His Dad never taught
him how to ride a bike,

736
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,160
he didn't teach him
how to catch a ball,

737
00:45:40,220 --> 00:45:41,420
but he taught him how to use a gun.

738
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,180
And then one time Michael
comes in with a grenade.

739
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,200
I've never seen this in my life.

740
00:45:48,260 --> 00:45:50,180
I've never seen a grenade
and it's right in front of me,

741
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,320
and it's my seven-year-old
child holding it,

742
00:45:53,020 --> 00:45:55,400
and I w--, I pulled a
kitchen knife out on John

743
00:45:55,460 --> 00:45:58,020
and I was waving it around
and I was just, like, I'm going to,

744
00:45:58,060 --> 00:45:59,300
one day I'm going to stab you.

745
00:45:59,340 --> 00:46:02,120
I hate what you're doing.
You're exposing your kids to this.

746
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,020
I was just so, so mad.

747
00:46:07,140 --> 00:46:10,240
I was, like, you guys are
grown men but you are idiots.

748
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,380
I was tired. I, I didn't
want to live on the edge.

749
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,180
I didn't--, I got tired
of this, the jihiadi life

750
00:46:19,220 --> 00:46:25,160
and I, I really wanted to just
live a comfortable family life.

751
00:46:25,380 --> 00:46:26,460
Stable life.

752
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:31,400
But John had other plans.

753
00:46:33,020 --> 00:46:37,220
âRGUNS FIRINGÁ
âRPEOPLE SHOUTINGÁ

754
00:46:40,220 --> 00:46:43,420
Easily the most disastrous
outcome of the Arab Spring

755
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,360
was the attempted uprising
against Bashar Al Assad in Syria.

756
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,080
Peaceful protests in
Syria have turned violent

757
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,140
as rebel groups fight to overthrow

758
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,000
one of the Middle East's
last remaining dictators.

759
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,380
In 2013, Syria was
an utter hell-scape.

760
00:47:02,220 --> 00:47:04,240
It had been ravaged by Civil War.

761
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:09,060
The Syrian Government is
still committing horrific crimes.

762
00:47:11,340 --> 00:47:14,060
There was violence left and right.

763
00:47:14,340 --> 00:47:16,200
The images are gut-wrenching.

764
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,280
Many of the victim's
children, even infants.

765
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,100
When the Syrian Revolution
turned very violent,

766
00:47:25,180 --> 00:47:28,360
that created this massive vacuum
for jihadist groups to operate.

767
00:47:28,420 --> 00:47:29,420
âREXPLODEÁ

768
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,040
One of the biggest players

769
00:47:31,100 --> 00:47:33,480
was the Islamic State
of Iraq and Sham, ISIS.

770
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:39,380
By 2013, ISIS was controlling
large swathes of territory,

771
00:47:39,420 --> 00:47:41,460
mostly in Northern Iraq.

772
00:47:43,060 --> 00:47:47,380
ISIS expanded into Syria
because Syria was lawless territory.

773
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:51,420
From his home in Egypt,

774
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:54,480
John increasingly saw that Syria

775
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:56,440
was where his life was leading,

776
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,480
and to some extent
Tania and the kids

777
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,460
were becoming encumbrances

778
00:48:03,020 --> 00:48:06,060
and what he really needed
to do was to go and fight.

779
00:48:09,220 --> 00:48:11,480
John was pressuring
me to go to Syria.

780
00:48:12,220 --> 00:48:15,120
I didn't want to take my kids
to a war zone, why would I?

781
00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:21,040
I mean...whatever I dreamed
of when I was younger,

782
00:48:21,300 --> 00:48:23,480
they were just dreams and I grew up.

783
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:30,480
I would read stories about
mothers who lost their sons.

784
00:48:31,260 --> 00:48:35,280
I knew that eventually my
children would be pressured

785
00:48:35,340 --> 00:48:38,080
to become child
soldiers, to fight in Syria,

786
00:48:39,140 --> 00:48:42,040
and I knew I can't handle that.

787
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:44,240
I will crack. I know I will crack.

788
00:48:45,420 --> 00:48:50,240
But John wanted to go to Syria,
so I compromised on Turkey.

789
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,400
I really just thought we
were going to live in Istanbul,

790
00:48:55,100 --> 00:48:57,480
but instead we ended
up going to Gaziantep.

791
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,300
I didn't even know
what Gaziantep was.

792
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:07,060
We spent the whole day
trying to find a place to stay.

793
00:49:07,340 --> 00:49:12,080
The hotels were packed.
The prices has sky-rocketed.

794
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,360
On such short notice, we didn't
have the money to rent a house.

795
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,300
The only place we had
was this refugee hostel.

796
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,120
It's two a.m.

797
00:49:27,220 --> 00:49:30,240
We're standing outside
with our luggage bags.

798
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:36,240
A bus came and it dropped
off some Syrians to the hostel

799
00:49:37,020 --> 00:49:39,480
and John went over
to talk to the bus driver.

800
00:49:41,220 --> 00:49:44,280
He came to me and he said
he knows a place for us to go.

801
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:45,480
It's only temporary.

802
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,160
So we got on the bus.

803
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,340
Had my babies with me. We covered
up at the back and we fell asleep.

804
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,340
As the sun started
to rise, I woke up

805
00:50:00,260 --> 00:50:03,160
and then I saw, at the checkpoint,

806
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:04,400
"Welcome in Syria."

807
00:50:06,220 --> 00:50:07,260
I was panicking.

808
00:50:09,060 --> 00:50:12,360
I was having a breakdown
and making a scene and crying.

809
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,480
John said, "Be quite, woman." He
said, "What am I supposed to do?

810
00:50:18,020 --> 00:50:20,040
We can't find anywhere to stay.

811
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:23,180
I swear it's just two weeks."

812
00:50:23,480 --> 00:50:26,340
I was just, like, okay, it's only
temporary, it's only temporary.

813
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:27,460
It's only a few days.

814
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,280
Once we crossed the border,
John was questioned by

815
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,360
the militia that were
in charge of the town.

816
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,340
Ten minute conversation
of interrogating John.

817
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,140
Who are you? Who do you know?

818
00:50:41,260 --> 00:50:44,040
And John said I know the Sheik.

819
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,260
Like call him up and the Sheik
says, yeah, take care of him,

820
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:49,460
take really good care
of Yayha and his family.

821
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,120
His life is not to be
put on the front lines,

822
00:50:52,180 --> 00:50:55,120
he's way too
important to be fighting.

823
00:50:55,380 --> 00:50:57,460
So they knew that
they could trust John.

824
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:02,220
The first place they took
us to was the villa in Azaz.

825
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:08,020
This villa used to belong to
a General that was attacked.

826
00:51:08,260 --> 00:51:10,020
The windows were smashed,

827
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,220
and the water tank had been
shot so there was no water there.

828
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:15,320
It was creepy.

829
00:51:15,420 --> 00:51:18,220
I felt like a ghost walking
in somebody's home.

830
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,440
We would go to the
rooftop of the villa

831
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,220
and you could see
the h--, entire city.

832
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,340
There was a hill where
the executions happened.

833
00:51:33,420 --> 00:51:36,000
I didn't see any executions.

834
00:51:36,060 --> 00:51:38,200
I was pregnant and I didn't
want to leave the house.

835
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,060
So I mainly stayed at home crying.

836
00:51:42,260 --> 00:51:44,300
Yeah, there were
all different factions.

837
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:48,260
Always fighting for power
over the area of Azaz.

838
00:51:48,460 --> 00:51:50,040
It would happen every day.

839
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,060
A siren would go off which
means we all have to hurry home

840
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:54,340
because there's
going to be a battle.

841
00:51:55,260 --> 00:51:57,300
Stay inside, don't
go near the windows.

842
00:52:01,060 --> 00:52:03,400
The kids and I got
very sick in Syria.

843
00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:06,080
We didn't have running water.

844
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:07,280
We didn't have food.

845
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,000
We would just cook
whatever we could find.

846
00:52:10,260 --> 00:52:14,100
We were all throwing up,
we all had urine infections.

847
00:52:14,260 --> 00:52:16,180
The electricity would go out a lot.

848
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,440
I was six months' pregnant

849
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,140
and I was always dehydrated
from vomiting from being pregnant.

850
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:27,460
The guy who would drop water for us,

851
00:52:28,020 --> 00:52:30,320
he would pick up
Michael on a motorcycle

852
00:52:30,380 --> 00:52:33,080
and take Michael
to the military base.

853
00:52:33,380 --> 00:52:35,420
It was supposed to be
teaching him religion,

854
00:52:35,460 --> 00:52:37,260
they call it Aqidah, the creed.

855
00:52:37,460 --> 00:52:41,140
The very first thing they thought
was necessary to teach children

856
00:52:41,180 --> 00:52:44,460
is how evil music is,
which infuriated me.

857
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:47,060
And then John would be, like,

858
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:49,340
"Well at least he has something
to do during the day 'cause

859
00:52:50,180 --> 00:52:52,100
what's he going to do,
watch you cry all day?"

860
00:52:54,380 --> 00:52:57,120
I was desperate to get out.

861
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,020
Each day I was waiting
for news to get out.

862
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:07,140
By two weeks, I was, "John,
you said this is very temporary.

863
00:53:07,300 --> 00:53:08,180
Let's go."

864
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:12,380
John said, "I know but the
people here want me to stay

865
00:53:13,060 --> 00:53:14,200
and I can't say no.

866
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,000
I have IT skills,
I have my English skills.

867
00:53:19,180 --> 00:53:23,100
I am an Islamic scholar and
most of the scholars have left.

868
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,220
They're asking me to
stay, I can't leave them."

869
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:32,140
I started begging him to
leave with me and he said no,

870
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:34,120
and then I got mad at him.

871
00:53:34,180 --> 00:53:35,340
I told him to go --- off,

872
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,460
and then he told me to
go --- off and I was, like,

873
00:53:38,020 --> 00:53:40,400
is this you saying that I
can leave without you?

874
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,200
And he said,
"Yeah, just get out of here."

875
00:53:45,180 --> 00:53:47,460
âRCHATTERING IN LOCAL LANGUAGEÁ

876
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,280
I called John's Mom and I
said please help us get out.

877
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,320
Call the authorities, tell
them what John has done

878
00:53:59,380 --> 00:54:01,340
and that I'm really scared that

879
00:54:01,380 --> 00:54:04,100
my children are going to
be raised to be terrorists or

880
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:05,140
they're going to die.

881
00:54:06,260 --> 00:54:11,380
The American authorities said they
can't come and rescue me in Syria,

882
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:17,140
they said that I would have to
make it out by myself to Turkey

883
00:54:17,220 --> 00:54:19,200
and then, once I'm in Turkey,

884
00:54:19,300 --> 00:54:21,320
they said I have to go to the UK

885
00:54:21,460 --> 00:54:24,440
and then they will give me
a visa waiver for two weeks

886
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,140
and within those two weeks I have
to come to the US, and if I don't

887
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,080
come then then I'm not
allowed back in the country at all

888
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,200
because they needed
to get all their information

889
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,220
that I had while it
was fresh in my mind.

890
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,060
I accepted to collaborate
with the authorities.

891
00:54:44,340 --> 00:54:48,140
How did you go from
one day living with John,

892
00:54:48,220 --> 00:54:49,360
knowing what he's doing,

893
00:54:49,420 --> 00:54:51,100
hearing about beheadings

894
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,420
to as long as I can get
back to the United States

895
00:54:53,460 --> 00:54:56,120
- I'll just collaborate and I'll--
- It wasn't one day though.

896
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,240
It was years I was
telling him to collaborate.

897
00:54:59,460 --> 00:55:04,300
So I, like, from 2009

898
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:09,060
I was saying John just
work for the FBI, you know?

899
00:55:09,100 --> 00:55:13,340
But...because I didn't really
believe, you know? I just, like,

900
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:15,480
you know, I, I was already, like,

901
00:55:16,420 --> 00:55:21,080
only involved because
there wasn't a way out.

902
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,040
I didn't want to
tear my family apart.

903
00:55:25,300 --> 00:55:29,420
I didn't want to lose my husband,
and it wasn't because of love.

904
00:55:29,460 --> 00:55:33,440
It was because I needed
a father for my children

905
00:55:34,020 --> 00:55:36,360
and I couldn't imagine
life without...I, like,

906
00:55:37,020 --> 00:55:41,300
my situation right now is not great
as a single mom. I...i--,

907
00:55:43,260 --> 00:55:44,120
âRSIGHSÁ.

908
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,460
It's, like...it's terrible,
you know, so...

909
00:55:49,240 --> 00:55:51,120
and I didn't want
it to be like this.

910
00:55:58,380 --> 00:56:02,000
John wasn't surprised by my actions.

911
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:05,280
All he said was there's no
way I'm going to take you to

912
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,320
the Turkish airport
because you ratted on me,

913
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:10,460
and I'm pretty certain
that there's going to be

914
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:12,400
people there waiting
for me to arrest me.

915
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:18,000
I was, like, you're going to
let me and your kids travel

916
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:21,100
in a country that we don't
know in Turkey by ourselves,

917
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:22,080
and he was like yeah.

918
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,140
It was a hot September day.

919
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,300
We left at, like,
eight in the morning.

920
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,260
I just grabbed my babies,
grabbed the bags that we had.

921
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:36,480
I forgot bottled water.

922
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,060
John thought I had it,
I thought he had it

923
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,340
which was a really rookie mistake
because it was scorching hot.

924
00:56:45,020 --> 00:56:46,180
We got into a van.

925
00:56:46,340 --> 00:56:50,300
It took us four hours
to get to the border.

926
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,280
Every crossing was closed.

927
00:56:55,060 --> 00:56:57,380
There were all these Syrian refugees

928
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:01,200
sitting in circles and
there's this wired fence.

929
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,120
We were told you just have to run.

930
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:11,140
There is a hole cut out in
this barbed wire, so we ran.

931
00:57:12,180 --> 00:57:13,360
We're running to the fence

932
00:57:13,420 --> 00:57:17,000
and then one at a time everybody's
going through this barbed wire.

933
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:18,280
I'm trying to get

934
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:21,060
my babies through the wire,

935
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,180
and a stroller, and our
bags and we're being shot at.

936
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:28,140
We see bullets hitting
the ground and flying.

937
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,280
Finally, me and the kids
made it through the barbed wire.

938
00:57:34,220 --> 00:57:36,120
John came through.

939
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,260
On the other side, there
was a human trafficking truck.

940
00:57:40,420 --> 00:57:43,320
John paid them $200. He said
take them to the bus station.

941
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,380
So we all pack onto this truck.

942
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,480
I saw John turnaround,
run back to the fence

943
00:57:54,020 --> 00:57:59,420
and just crossed over the other
side to what he thought was freedom.

944
00:58:01,220 --> 00:58:05,360
And I saw him run and not wave
or say goodbye or kiss us goodbye.

945
00:58:06,340 --> 00:58:08,420
I was, like, you're actually happy.

946
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:14,260
And, if anything, that
was what broke my heart.

947
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,240
John's parents had
booked plane tickets for us

948
00:58:34,300 --> 00:58:37,120
to travel from
Gaziantep to Istanbul.

949
00:58:38,220 --> 00:58:42,300
We had a room booked
for us at the Raddison Hotel,

950
00:58:44,300 --> 00:58:45,400
and we were sick.

951
00:58:45,460 --> 00:58:50,300
We just all started
vomiting non-stop.

952
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,160
I was in so much pain.

953
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,120
I thought I was
having a miscarriage.

954
00:58:56,140 --> 00:59:00,200
The hotel had to get an
ambulance and I had to go to the ER.

955
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,240
They had to put an IV

956
00:59:02,340 --> 00:59:06,100
because they said I was
just dangerously dehydrated,

957
00:59:07,060 --> 00:59:09,300
but my kids were in a
hotel room without me.

958
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,000
I called John's parents,
Tim and Martha,

959
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:17,020
and I was crying and Tim was crying,

960
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,160
and Tim saying what do
you want me to do? âRCRYINGÁ

961
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,040
I can't help you from here.

962
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,060
âRCRYINGÁ And I was, like,
all I want, you're a doctor,

963
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,240
just tell me I'm going to be
okay 'cause I was really scared.

964
00:59:28,300 --> 00:59:30,420
You know, the pain was excruciating.

965
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:37,040
But we made it out.

966
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:57,480
When we returned to the US,

967
00:59:58,020 --> 01:00:00,380
we were living with
John's parents in Texas.

968
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:04,040
âRBABY CRYINGÁ
âRINDISTINCT CHATTERINGÁ

969
01:00:04,300 --> 01:00:07,360
I gave birth to Yani, my youngest.

970
01:00:07,460 --> 01:00:11,060
âRBABY COOINGÁ

971
01:00:17,380 --> 01:00:20,460
It was really hard for my kids
when they first came to America.

972
01:00:22,180 --> 01:00:27,160
Michael was very worried
about us not being Muslim now.

973
01:00:28,220 --> 01:00:30,280
We were under pressure, you know,

974
01:00:30,340 --> 01:00:33,100
it was voluntarily but
also under pressure

975
01:00:33,140 --> 01:00:36,420
by living with John's
parents now to not be Muslim.

976
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:39,480
I was already losing my religion,

977
01:00:40,300 --> 01:00:42,120
but what they struggled
to understand is

978
01:00:42,180 --> 01:00:44,380
that it's not something I
could just change overnight.

979
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:52,140
A day or two after I
was over the jet-lag and,

980
01:00:52,420 --> 01:00:58,200
and then I stated speaking
and reporting to the authorities.

981
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:06,020
I disclosed everything I possibly
could remember, every detail.

982
01:01:06,260 --> 01:01:09,160
Every single person I
met who was with John.

983
01:01:11,000 --> 01:01:15,420
I was very willing to
participate and help because

984
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,460
I wanted to do
something to make up for,

985
01:01:20,180 --> 01:01:22,400
for, you know, the past and,

986
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:28,300
and so there was never any,
like, I was never coerced. Not once.

987
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,160
And they always made it clear,
you know, you don't have to

988
01:01:31,220 --> 01:01:34,020
but this--, you know, as long
as you understand it's voluntary,

989
01:01:34,180 --> 01:01:36,140
and I said, "Yes, sure, absolutely."

990
01:01:39,380 --> 01:01:42,340
Eventually, I started
working undercover.

991
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:47,200
It just came to, well, I need a job
and I don't have a college degree.

992
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:52,440
All I have is my knowledge
in extremism and this.

993
01:01:54,220 --> 01:01:57,420
I would start taking to
jihadists and getting information,

994
01:01:58,060 --> 01:01:59,480
passing it along to the authorities.

995
01:02:01,240 --> 01:02:04,060
I would record conversations.

996
01:02:04,460 --> 01:02:07,220
They were prompting me and
I would do what I was told, like,

997
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,200
they would say ask
him this, ask this way

998
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,120
and I would do the best I could.

999
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:19,380
It was in--, some acting on my
behalf but, âRSIGHSÁ, I did my job.

1000
01:02:20,180 --> 01:02:23,180
I owed this country and
that's the way I could help.

1001
01:02:23,220 --> 01:02:25,240
It was the only way I
really could help at the time.

1002
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:31,160
John was reaching out to make
sure that me and the kids made it.

1003
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,340
John wanted to see
the kids on the video,

1004
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:37,460
and they wanted to
see him so I allowed it,

1005
01:02:39,060 --> 01:02:42,260
while recording what's in the
background and, you know,

1006
01:02:43,380 --> 01:02:45,280
getting as much
information as I could.

1007
01:02:47,060 --> 01:02:49,140
I was actually asking
him not to fight.

1008
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,220
I was, like, please,
whatever you do, don't fight.

1009
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:53,460
Promise me you're
not going to fight.

1010
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,040
Was there ever a
moment where you were

1011
01:02:59,100 --> 01:03:01,480
fearful that you would
have criminal charges?

1012
01:03:02,220 --> 01:03:03,040
No.

1013
01:03:04,020 --> 01:03:08,160
Because I didn't have, I didn't
know, like...did I commit a crime?

1014
01:03:10,380 --> 01:03:12,180
I didn't join ISIS.

1015
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:15,180
I didn't commit any violence.

1016
01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,220
I didn't decapitate anybody.
I wasn't policing anyone.

1017
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:24,120
My crime was being an idiot
and getting married too young

1018
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:27,400
and joining a really bad idea.

1019
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,440
That was my mistake,
but it's not a crime.

1020
01:03:36,060 --> 01:03:40,320
For a lot of women who
traveled in support of ISIS,

1021
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:43,380
what we often hear is well
I, I didn't engage in combat.

1022
01:03:43,420 --> 01:03:46,100
I didn't commit
any acts of violence.

1023
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:49,340
What is important to remember
is that the ISIS enterprise

1024
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:52,020
relied on all sorts of functions

1025
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,160
and a lot of women
who joined were, in fact,

1026
01:03:55,220 --> 01:03:58,100
very strong enablers for fighters,

1027
01:03:58,180 --> 01:04:00,300
to then go out and
commit acts of violence.

1028
01:04:03,180 --> 01:04:05,400
In that period of 2013,

1029
01:04:05,460 --> 01:04:08,260
when the States
realized that individuals

1030
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:10,460
were traveling to join ISIS,

1031
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:12,160
it posed quite a dilemma

1032
01:04:12,220 --> 01:04:15,240
because it wasn't illegal
to go to Syria or Iraq

1033
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:21,020
and that act in itself didn't really
come with criminal penalties.

1034
01:04:21,380 --> 01:04:23,140
So there's a real question,

1035
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,480
not just in legal terms,
but moral and ethical terms

1036
01:04:27,060 --> 01:04:29,320
what constituted being part of ISIS?

1037
01:04:29,380 --> 01:04:32,060
What constituted permitting

1038
01:04:32,300 --> 01:04:36,440
the kind of brutality that they
exacted on their populations.

1039
01:04:37,300 --> 01:04:39,360
However, within a few years,

1040
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:41,120
there was a big effort

1041
01:04:41,180 --> 01:04:44,080
the United States certainly
spear-headed this effort

1042
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:49,060
to adopt laws that make it
illegal to travel to join ISIS.

1043
01:04:50,380 --> 01:04:51,320
At the time,

1044
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:54,420
everybody was confused about
why would anyone go to Syria?

1045
01:04:55,140 --> 01:04:56,380
Why do people join ISIS?

1046
01:04:58,260 --> 01:05:02,020
Tania, she was conservative
before she ever met John

1047
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:03,280
and she was conservative

1048
01:05:04,020 --> 01:05:06,280
in a, a milieu where it
wasn't demanded of her.

1049
01:05:06,340 --> 01:05:08,040
She chose to be that way,

1050
01:05:08,180 --> 01:05:11,360
and then, eventually, she
traded that for America.

1051
01:05:13,020 --> 01:05:15,120
John came from money.
He came from privilege.

1052
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:17,480
He had everything, and
he traded it for nothing.

1053
01:05:21,180 --> 01:05:25,480
After the departure of his wife
and family, John suddenly was free.

1054
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,460
Okay. âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ.

1055
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:33,260
Right now I'm in Syria, and I've
been here for about four months.

1056
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:35,460
I came here as I wanted to help.

1057
01:05:36,020 --> 01:05:37,360
I saw the situation was pretty bad

1058
01:05:37,420 --> 01:05:42,360
and I decided it was time
for me to take some action

1059
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:44,460
rather than just speaking about it.

1060
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,020
Pretty quickly, John picks up arms.

1061
01:05:49,060 --> 01:05:49,480
He fights.

1062
01:05:50,460 --> 01:05:53,160
He's badly wounded at one point.

1063
01:05:54,220 --> 01:05:57,400
John wrote to tell me he
got hit by a rocket launcher

1064
01:05:57,460 --> 01:06:02,060
and it sent shrapnel all
up his spine and I was, like,

1065
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,060
you told me you wouldn't
fight and he was, like,

1066
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:06,100
well, you know, first it's my duty.

1067
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:10,380
Everybody has to do it, and I'm
just doing what my forefathers did.

1068
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,360
John, from his perspective, was

1069
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:18,020
following in the footsteps
of his grandfather

1070
01:06:18,060 --> 01:06:19,380
who fought in World War Two,

1071
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:22,360
and his Dad, he was a
Colonel in the Air Force

1072
01:06:22,420 --> 01:06:24,460
and John was a Commander

1073
01:06:25,020 --> 01:06:27,440
and he told me he was proud of that.

1074
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,420
He was picked up
eventually by enemies of ISIS.

1075
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:36,120
He spent months in prison.

1076
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,120
Eventually he got out.

1077
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:42,100
At that point he realized that the
only place he would really be safe

1078
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,120
would be in ISIS territory.

1079
01:06:46,020 --> 01:06:52,060
So he got on a truck and went to
the de facto capital of ISIS, Raqqa.

1080
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:01,120
By the time John arrived in Raqqa,

1081
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:04,160
ISIS had declared
itself as a Caliphate.

1082
01:07:04,460 --> 01:07:06,340
Muslim militants in
Iraq have declared

1083
01:07:06,380 --> 01:07:08,260
the complete of the Islamic State

1084
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:12,060
with the new Caliphate under
their leader, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi.

1085
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:15,360
âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ

1086
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,020
Baghdadi had graduated from being a

1087
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:26,040
courier within the Islamic State
to being the leader of ISIS.

1088
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:31,160
âRFOREIGN
DIALOGUEÁ

1089
01:07:31,200 --> 01:07:33,440
When Baghdadi stood up and said,

1090
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:35,020
"I'm the Khalif"

1091
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,280
he was claiming that he was the
leader of all Muslims in the world,

1092
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,320
and everybody had to
give allegiance to him.

1093
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,140
So, Ali, this new video we have from
ISIS, it's, it's a little unusual.

1094
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,260
The creation of an
Islamic caliphate--

1095
01:07:47,300 --> 01:07:50,320
- Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi--
- Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi--

1096
01:07:50,420 --> 01:07:52,040
Terrorists group ISIS--

1097
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:53,440
Today they announced a new name,

1098
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,340
- the Islamic State.
- They say they want to be known

1099
01:07:55,380 --> 01:07:57,120
as a caliphate right now.

1100
01:07:57,180 --> 01:07:59,420
It was a huge propaganda success.

1101
01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:02,380
ISIS knew exactly
what they're doing.

1102
01:08:02,420 --> 01:08:05,040
There was not a television
station on the planet

1103
01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:08,320
that was not broadcasting in
detail what happened that day.

1104
01:08:08,380 --> 01:08:11,380
- Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi.
- The message was we are here,

1105
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:15,300
we are staying. This is our
ruler, come join the Caliphate.

1106
01:08:22,020 --> 01:08:25,480
The initial analysis shows it is
indeed Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi b--

1107
01:08:26,020 --> 01:08:28,240
I remember being at
the kitchen sink and

1108
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:32,440
hearing on Fox News that ISIS
actually declared a Caliphate.

1109
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:36,160
The timing was, for me, shocking.

1110
01:08:36,460 --> 01:08:39,440
I just left Islam.
I stopped praying the day I left.

1111
01:08:39,480 --> 01:08:42,060
I threw off my hijab
and I was happy,

1112
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:45,320
I was happy not to be a
Muslim but when that happened,

1113
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:51,240
I thought, man God hates me
because, if there is an Allah,

1114
01:08:52,020 --> 01:08:56,300
and this is what I wanted for so
long, and I turned my back on that.

1115
01:08:56,480 --> 01:08:58,000
It was just shocking.

1116
01:08:58,480 --> 01:09:01,380
I didn't like it that John was going
to be able to say I told you so,

1117
01:09:01,480 --> 01:09:06,060
âRCHUCKLESÁ that di--, I didn't want
to hear that but it felt like it.

1118
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:10,080
âRPEOPLE SHOUTING AND FIRING GUNSÁ

1119
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:16,480
After the declaration of the
Caliphate, ISIS went into top gear.

1120
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:21,260
When ISIS comes to town,

1121
01:09:21,320 --> 01:09:25,240
they come with a black banner
and they announce law and order.

1122
01:09:26,260 --> 01:09:30,400
They impose manners of
dress, strict observance of prayer.

1123
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:35,000
There's a list of crimes that
often have corporal punishments

1124
01:09:35,060 --> 01:09:37,260
including execution, crucifixion.

1125
01:09:39,060 --> 01:09:41,380
Punishments that, for
most of the rest of the world,

1126
01:09:41,440 --> 01:09:45,260
including the vast majority of
Muslims, are deeply objectionable.

1127
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,120
âRGUNS FIRINGÁ

1128
01:09:48,480 --> 01:09:54,320
They literally victimized entire
communities of so-called citizens.

1129
01:09:56,020 --> 01:10:00,440
For many people who lived
under ISIS's brutal regime,

1130
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:04,140
it wasn't a choice of
whether you join ISIS or not.

1131
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:07,220
You didn't really have a
choice of anywhere to go.

1132
01:10:09,480 --> 01:10:12,280
And it's worth pointing out
that more Muslims have died

1133
01:10:12,340 --> 01:10:15,360
from ISIS's actions than
any other community.

1134
01:10:16,220 --> 01:10:18,060
âRFOREIGN LANGUAGEÁ

1135
01:10:18,100 --> 01:10:21,060
We'll continue to strike
the necks of your people.

1136
01:10:22,480 --> 01:10:25,400
ISIS was creating videos
emphasizing, of course,

1137
01:10:25,440 --> 01:10:28,400
the violence but there were
other videos that were showing

1138
01:10:28,440 --> 01:10:31,020
how nice the Islamic state was.

1139
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:33,480
How it was
a family-friendly place.

1140
01:10:35,480 --> 01:10:39,280
You can live not just a fully
Islamic life, but a happy one.

1141
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:44,480
Something in their narrative
was very compelling.

1142
01:10:46,020 --> 01:10:51,060
There was an unprecedented outflow
of foreign fighters to go join ISIS,

1143
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:53,360
20,000 is the number
we've estimated.

1144
01:10:54,180 --> 01:10:58,380
Either you are with us or
you are with the terrorists.

1145
01:11:01,340 --> 01:11:05,020
Of the couple of hundred or so
Americans who were part of ISIS,

1146
01:11:05,100 --> 01:11:07,280
John might have been
the most influential

1147
01:11:07,340 --> 01:11:11,160
as a propagandist and been
the one who rose highest

1148
01:11:11,300 --> 01:11:13,240
in the leadership
structures of ISIS itself.

1149
01:11:15,380 --> 01:11:18,440
In one of the Islamic State videos,
you can see John Georgelas.

1150
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:23,060
âRFOREIGN DIALOGUEÁ

1151
01:11:23,220 --> 01:11:25,480
and elevated them through
their obedience to him.

1152
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,300
John was really
trying to show the world

1153
01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,220
that there was a whole civilization

1154
01:11:32,260 --> 01:11:35,260
where every aspect
would be fully Islamic.

1155
01:11:35,460 --> 01:11:39,420
You enjoin what is good and forbid
what is evil and believe in Allah.

1156
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:44,300
John was writing on behalf of ISIS

1157
01:11:44,340 --> 01:11:47,000
in ISIS's main propaganda outlet,

1158
01:11:47,180 --> 01:11:51,060
Dabiq Magazine which published
upwards of a dozen issues.

1159
01:11:53,420 --> 01:11:56,460
He wrote an article titled Why We
Hate You and Why We Fight You.

1160
01:12:01,140 --> 01:12:03,140
This article said, in effect,

1161
01:12:03,340 --> 01:12:06,420
we exist because Islam
requires us to exist.

1162
01:12:08,060 --> 01:12:11,460
We do these things because
Islam requires us to do them.

1163
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:22,100
Very few people actually
thought that ISIS had it right,

1164
01:12:22,300 --> 01:12:25,120
but those who did were
convinced somehow,

1165
01:12:25,180 --> 01:12:27,220
and it was people like
John who did the convincing.

1166
01:12:28,380 --> 01:12:31,180
But John Georgelas went dark,

1167
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:34,240
not communicating as far as I
can tell with anybody outside ISIS.

1168
01:12:34,300 --> 01:12:36,320
At the end of 2016,

1169
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:40,120
right around the time I
published an article about John.

1170
01:12:40,220 --> 01:12:44,040
The focus of Wood's book excerpt
in The Atlantic Magazine this month

1171
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:46,380
is an ISIS member known
as Yayha The American.

1172
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:49,220
We go to Tania Joya who is British.

1173
01:12:49,260 --> 01:12:52,320
Tania Joya, married one of
the most senior commanders

1174
01:12:52,380 --> 01:12:54,340
- of so-called Islamic State.
- Tania Joya,

1175
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:56,360
she followed her husband,
an American jihadi,

1176
01:12:56,420 --> 01:12:58,140
to Egypt, Turkey and Syria.

1177
01:12:58,200 --> 01:13:01,460
Once Graeme Wood
published the article,

1178
01:13:02,020 --> 01:13:04,480
I started giving
interviews to journalists.

1179
01:13:05,060 --> 01:13:08,060
I felt like I owed the American
public an explanation.

1180
01:13:08,220 --> 01:13:11,360
Why should anyone believe you?

1181
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:16,420
I mean that's your, your
journey is night and day.

1182
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:19,060
I speak out in public because

1183
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:23,280
I feel I have to make up
for the wrong that I did.

1184
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:25,260
I'm a former extremist

1185
01:13:25,300 --> 01:13:26,200
and I understand

1186
01:13:26,260 --> 01:13:27,340
the minds of extremists.

1187
01:13:27,380 --> 01:13:29,320
Do you still love your ex-husband?

1188
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:33,200
Everybody has a good side,
everybody has a bad side.

1189
01:13:33,260 --> 01:13:34,400
Yeah, you know what, I'm afraid

1190
01:13:34,460 --> 01:13:36,340
ISIS terrorists don't
have a good side

1191
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:39,320
and so I'm afraid we're going
to end the interview right there.

1192
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:41,280
Where is your ex-husband right now?

1193
01:13:41,380 --> 01:13:44,340
I don't know where he is or
what's happened to him since then.

1194
01:13:46,140 --> 01:13:48,220
Once I was talking to the media,

1195
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:50,280
John stopped all contact with me.

1196
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:56,320
The last email I got form John,

1197
01:13:57,180 --> 01:14:00,420
he wanted me to pass on this message
to the boys when they're older.

1198
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:04,160
Could I have you read the letter?

1199
01:14:04,220 --> 01:14:05,440
I haven't read it in years.

1200
01:14:05,480 --> 01:14:07,260
Let me just read
it in my head first.

1201
01:14:07,320 --> 01:14:08,180
Sure.

1202
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:15,020
Roll my eyes and cringe.

1203
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:16,460
âRSIGHSÁ.

1204
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:20,100
I have devoted my
life to seeking the truth.

1205
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:22,460
I've spent countless hours
and many sleepless nights

1206
01:14:23,020 --> 01:14:25,100
researching through
thousands of books of old,

1207
01:14:25,140 --> 01:14:28,100
and I have experienced
more of this life than most men

1208
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:30,100
who have lived to be grandfathers.

1209
01:14:32,100 --> 01:14:33,360
It's him bragging again.

1210
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,480
I have found the
truth firstly in Islam,

1211
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:41,160
and secondly in waging
jihad for Allah's cause.

1212
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:44,220
I have never felt so much
honour and glory until I reached

1213
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:48,460
the lands of the Islamic State and
became a mujihadeen in its ranks.

1214
01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:52,220
I love you all and I hope to
see you again in this life but

1215
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:56,420
the true moment of ecstasy will
be when we are reunited in Jannah,

1216
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:58,180
Insha'Allah.

1217
01:14:58,300 --> 01:15:05,000
Your father, Abu Hassan
Yayha âRUNSURE OF NAMEÁ.

1218
01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:12,440
âRLAUGHSÁ. Poor guy.

1219
01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:18,320
I never read it to them.

1220
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:21,260
I am not going to give it to them.

1221
01:15:21,440 --> 01:15:26,480
That's...you know, he's
telling them to wage jihad.

1222
01:15:27,460 --> 01:15:30,080
Do you think John is alive?

1223
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:31,200
I don't know.

1224
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:34,060
I really don't know.

1225
01:15:37,060 --> 01:15:39,020
If John were to be captured,

1226
01:15:39,080 --> 01:15:41,020
do you think he should go to prison?

1227
01:15:41,060 --> 01:15:43,200
Oh yeah, I mean
but he needs a trial.

1228
01:15:43,260 --> 01:15:45,440
If he's captured,
and he goes to court,

1229
01:15:46,100 --> 01:15:49,460
and if I had to be a witness
I would do what I have to do.

1230
01:15:50,340 --> 01:15:52,360
As hard as it would be,
I would do it.

1231
01:15:54,100 --> 01:15:55,460
And it would be hard because?

1232
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:57,480
It's awkward. I am, like,

1233
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:02,440
being a witness against
somebody who claims to love me

1234
01:16:02,480 --> 01:16:04,240
and love my children,

1235
01:16:04,460 --> 01:16:07,160
and there aren't many
people in this world

1236
01:16:07,300 --> 01:16:12,240
who love me and my children
so it would be hard that way.

1237
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:19,300
I do feel like he still lives
through me, just very hard.

1238
01:16:21,440 --> 01:16:25,240
So.. âRLAUGHSÁ. I don't want to cry.

1239
01:16:32,480 --> 01:16:37,260
Those ten years...he was my master,

1240
01:16:38,460 --> 01:16:40,260
and he was my best friend,

1241
01:16:40,440 --> 01:16:43,360
and the father of my
children, and my teacher.

1242
01:16:44,220 --> 01:16:45,460
I shared his legacy.

1243
01:16:50,420 --> 01:16:53,140
During the time when John went dark,

1244
01:16:53,420 --> 01:16:56,280
ISIS was being chased
out of their territory.

1245
01:16:57,460 --> 01:17:00,020
People of his stature
were being targeted

1246
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:01,340
personally with drone strikes.

1247
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:05,160
And then, in 2019,

1248
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:09,340
ISIS in its main territory
was resoundingly defeated.

1249
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:14,260
It could be the case that John
was obliterated in the drone strike.

1250
01:17:15,260 --> 01:17:17,480
It could be somehow
possible he survived

1251
01:17:18,180 --> 01:17:19,340
and that he's alive to this day.

1252
01:17:20,300 --> 01:17:21,340
You just don't know yet.

1253
01:18:14,460 --> 01:18:18,260
Tania, tell me where we are now.

1254
01:18:19,060 --> 01:18:21,460
We're here at my house in Texas.

1255
01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:26,160
We've been here for
seven-and-a-half years.

1256
01:18:29,100 --> 01:18:31,220
I think I'm pretty Americanized now.

1257
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:33,000
I'm fully Americanized.

1258
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:37,140
I can't believe it was
less than ten years ago,

1259
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:40,220
because it feels like another life.

1260
01:18:40,480 --> 01:18:42,200
It feels like my past life.

1261
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:49,100
Hey boys, which one of you
wants to go up and be the President?

1262
01:18:49,160 --> 01:18:50,060
- Me.
- I.

1263
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:52,160
Which President do
you want to be like?

1264
01:18:52,220 --> 01:18:54,280
I want to be like George Washington.

1265
01:18:54,340 --> 01:18:56,440
Oh, did you know that
âRUNSURE OF WORDÁ

1266
01:18:56,480 --> 01:18:59,100
actually means Farmer
George in Arabic?

1267
01:19:00,060 --> 01:19:01,400
Corey, I just tagged you.

1268
01:19:03,360 --> 01:19:06,480
I raised my kids
with John's parents.

1269
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:11,340
First it was hard for
me to share the children

1270
01:19:12,060 --> 01:19:16,220
and not control every aspect
of how I want them to be raised.

1271
01:19:19,460 --> 01:19:22,420
John's Dad, Tim, does
everything, like, financially.

1272
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:24,180
He should be retired

1273
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,300
but he still works as a
doctor to provide for the kids.

1274
01:19:28,440 --> 01:19:31,080
They've had to sacrifice
so much of their life

1275
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:36,160
but Martha's, she's just
always overjoyed about it.

1276
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:42,480
She's a living grandmother, and all
the grandchildren love their Yaya.

1277
01:19:43,420 --> 01:19:45,380
I like it that they're in
a loving environment.

1278
01:19:45,440 --> 01:19:47,320
That's so important.

1279
01:19:49,160 --> 01:19:51,420
I'd be in a homeless
shelter and my kids would be

1280
01:19:52,140 --> 01:19:55,200
in foster care without
Tim and Martha.

1281
01:19:57,340 --> 01:20:00,440
My kids have it good,
but it's not perfect.

1282
01:20:01,140 --> 01:20:02,280
They have a nice life.

1283
01:20:05,060 --> 01:20:08,040
Do your children ask
you now about their Dad?

1284
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:13,140
They don't ask me a lot
about their Dad anymore.

1285
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:15,220
Fast. You're too fast.

1286
01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:17,100
Go away, you can't come.

1287
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,280
My younger two kids, when they play,

1288
01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:22,320
one plays the Dad,
one plays the son.

1289
01:20:23,320 --> 01:20:25,140
Oh no, Yayha's dead.

1290
01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:30,080
And they've always role-played.
What is it like to have a Dad.

1291
01:20:34,380 --> 01:20:37,480
I don't know how to,
to fill that void.

1292
01:20:38,260 --> 01:20:39,480
I don't think I can.

1293
01:20:52,120 --> 01:20:54,180
Michael is now 16,

1294
01:20:55,080 --> 01:20:56,400
and he goes through phases of

1295
01:20:56,440 --> 01:20:59,100
learning an ideology
and then adopting it,

1296
01:20:59,140 --> 01:21:01,480
then realizing its
flaws and moves on.

1297
01:21:03,320 --> 01:21:06,480
And he's always wanting to be
at the extreme end of everything.

1298
01:21:09,380 --> 01:21:13,040
17 is when John converted to Islam.

1299
01:21:14,300 --> 01:21:19,380
17, 18, that's when
I was radicalizing.

1300
01:21:21,020 --> 01:21:24,140
Michael does have a tendency
of finding these You Tubers

1301
01:21:24,180 --> 01:21:26,180
who are very radical thinking.

1302
01:21:26,420 --> 01:21:28,300
He's drawn to those voices.

1303
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:34,220
When I came back to America,
I got bullied at school.

1304
01:21:34,460 --> 01:21:36,200
You know, being the outsider,

1305
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:39,080
being like the kid who
everyone thought was a terrorist,

1306
01:21:39,320 --> 01:21:41,460
there were people who
would tell me how bad

1307
01:21:42,020 --> 01:21:43,280
I was because I was a Muslim.

1308
01:21:45,400 --> 01:21:48,440
I believe what is right and
what's wrong matters a lot.

1309
01:21:50,180 --> 01:21:51,140
My Dad,

1310
01:21:51,180 --> 01:21:54,160
he was always one who knew what was
right and who knew what was wrong.

1311
01:21:54,440 --> 01:21:56,200
He had a good soul within him.

1312
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:00,460
In many ways, Michael
and I are very similar.

1313
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:06,140
I'm totally that kind of person
where I am one extreme or the other,

1314
01:22:07,060 --> 01:22:08,280
and I make big mistakes.

1315
01:22:08,460 --> 01:22:10,020
At least now

1316
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:14,360
I am not going to let other
people's mistakes be my mistake.

1317
01:22:15,340 --> 01:22:17,160
It's better to make my own mistakes.

1318
01:22:30,480 --> 01:22:33,200
I think I am just a radical person,

1319
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:39,360
but I could never be a radical
slave to Allah ever again.

1320
01:22:44,080 --> 01:22:47,420
I'm sharing my story to
hopefully prevent other people

1321
01:22:47,480 --> 01:22:52,460
from being groomed into
cults and extreme ideologies.

1322
01:22:54,160 --> 01:22:57,360
If we don't understand the problem,
then it's hard to heal from.

1323
01:23:00,220 --> 01:23:02,120
What would you say
you're seeking now?

1324
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:06,340
A normal life. âRLAUGHSÁ
I want a normal life.