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The glue that held our nation
together is gone.

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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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We are mourning the loss of
a constant, reassuring presence.

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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As we slowly come to terms
with her death,

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what happens to Britain
after the Queen?

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Good evening.
Welcome to a special programme.

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Over the next 90 minutes,
as the nation mourns the death

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of the Queen, we'll reflect on
her reign, her life and her legacy.

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But we'll also focus on the future -
what it may hold for the monarchy,

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what the Elizabethan age stood for,
and how history will judge it.

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And what next for Britain,
the union and the Commonwealth?

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After three days
of incredible scenes,

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perhaps the most moving
and extraordinary pictures

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are from today. King Charles III,
walking behind his mother's coffin

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with all the other members
of his family

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as it was taken along the Royal Mile
in Edinburgh to St Giles' Cathedral.

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My first guests tonight
are the Archbishop of York,

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Stephen Cottrell,

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one of the eight signatories to the
proclamation of King Charles III.

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Broadcaster and cultural commentator
Baroness Joan Bakewell.

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Professor Chandrika Kaul, historian
at the University of St Andrews.

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And Andrew Marr, broadcaster
and author of The Diamond Queen:

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Elizabeth And Her People.

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Let's begin with
the Queen's life and reign,

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and perhaps nothing sums up that

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better than this piece of footage
from 1947. She's 21,

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and already acutely aware of
the importance of duty.

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I declare before you all
that my whole life,

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whether it be long or short,
shall be devoted to your service

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and to the service of
our great imperial family

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to which we all belong.

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But I shall not have strength
to carry out this resolution alone,

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unless you join in it with me,
as I now invite you to do.

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I know that your support
will be unfailingly given.

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God help me to make good my vow,

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and God bless all of you
who are willing to share in it.

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Well, Archbishop,
when it came to duty and service,

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she certainly kept her promise,
didn't she?

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Yes, I mean, I think it's impossible
to really understand the Queen

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without understanding
the word "service",

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and I think one of her
great legacies will be a way of

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re-understanding
the place of monarchy

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as service rather than rule.

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Rule is the way we've always
understood it,

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but in a constitutional monarchy,
it's not that.

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It has to be something else.
And not celebrity?

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No, no, and so, it has been
a life laid down in service,

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and I think the other thing
I would say is,

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it's impossible
to understand that service...

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I mean,
she mentioned God twice in that.

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Her own profound Christian faith
is what shaped her service.

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You know, Jesus famously
says to his disciples,

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"Don't be like the leaders of
the world. That's not how you do it.

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"I am among you as one who serves,"

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and I think that understanding
of leadership as service

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is deep inside... Was deep inside
Her late Majesty the Queen,

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because of her Christian faith.

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Joan Bakewell, people have
talked about how surprised

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they were by how much they were
affected by the news of her death.

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Were you?

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Yes, I was in my second year
at Cambridge, I was in a lecture

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when the lecture was interrupted
by news of the King's death,

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and we were all sent away

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because the lecturer
wouldn't complete his work.

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So we all trooped
out of the lecture hall

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and looked amazed at each other.
I mean, it was one of those moments.

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"Here we are, this is history."
And he was only 56 at the time too.

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He was very sick, and I think
what's very interesting,

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just to talk about
this matter of duty,

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that I think her family
mattered very much.

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She had been known that
she was going to be

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the heir to the throne
for a long time.

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Her father was very close to her,
and he was a very wise man

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in many ways, and I think the bond
between a father and a daughter

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is very strong, and I think he gave
her great leadership, so that when

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it did fall upon her to be Queen,
she knew from him what was expected.

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But were you affected by the news
in a surprising way?

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Well, we were all rather stunned.
We thought... first of all,

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I was at one of the two colleges
in Cambridge

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that were for the women,
so we were first...

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No, no, I mean by the Queen's death.
Yes... Oh, by the Queen's death?

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Yes.

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Well, I'm getting on for
her age myself,

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so it's a familiar presence,
that we walk with death

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as we get over 80, so in that sense,
I think she had a wonderful death,

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and I think that's a very important
part of our grieving for her,

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that it wasn't too soon,
it was part of her life, complete,

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and so I feel a great warmth
about her death rather than grief.

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Andrew Marr, people knew the Queen
had to die some time. She was 96.

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But even so, people, I think,

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were caught up in the moment.

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When it happened, they were
surprised by their reaction.

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I think that's absolutely right.

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I think the way to think about it
is that it was, of course,

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not a surprise. How could it have
been a surprise, given her age?

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But somehow, it was still a shock.
A shock, but not a surprise.

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You were quite surprised?
I was surprised and shocked.

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I was surprised by my own reaction,

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and I am nobody's idea of
a rabid monarchist,

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but I think it was to do with
the fact that, at that moment,

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thoughts of my own father's death
two years ago flooded through me,

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and I think
the interesting thing is,

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talking to colleagues
and friends since then,

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almost everybody had some kind of

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sort of visceral family-type
reaction to the Queen's death,

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and I think it was, you know,
she'd been part of our world,

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of course, but also, somehow,

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there was a projection of
one's own family onto that family

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at extreme moments,
and so it's a complicated thing.

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I mean, I was chatting with
someone in the street on Friday.

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I've met the Queen on several
occasions, I've stayed with her.

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I don't pretend I know her,
but I had stories to tell.

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And I was chatting
with this person in the street

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who also had stories to tell.

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But their stories weren't
about meeting the Queen,

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they were about Paddington bear
and the Coronation,

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and I found myself saying,
it's funny, isn't it?

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We feel this great need
to tell these stories.

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It's not like she was a member
of our family. Except she was.

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You know, part of the way she
managed royalty

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was make it feel close.

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Well, if I might just add, you know,
that point about family,

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I mean, the idea of the royal family
as the idealised family

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was a very conscious attempt
on the part of British politicians,

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going right back to Victorian times,

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and certainly with Victoria herself,
and it is very interesting

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that during the Second World War,
you know, the King and...

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you know, "the four of us",
you know, that phrase -

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the King, the Queen
and the two daughters -

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that was very much
part of that myth-making,

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albeit for a good end.

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You know, the nation
needs to pull together

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as the royal family is.

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But this idea of the family,

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it's very much ingrained now
in the 21st century.

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But it kind of came back to bite
the royal family, though,

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when, among the Queen's children,
everything started to go wrong,

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if you will.
Well certainly, like...

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Well, that's where
the identification becomes

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very interesting, because in a way,
it's like saying,

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"Well, she's like one of us."

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You know, "She has problems
in her family too!"

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And that was also part of some of
the narrative that was put across,

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you know, by certain members of
the governing elite,

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including members of the Palace PR.

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But this might anticipate
what you're saying in part three,

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but I was thinking more of
the household of the nation.

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And I think one of the things
we are discovering at the moment

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is those bonds which have been
so under threat in recent years

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for all kind of reasons
we well know.

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There's a real sense of
the household of the nation.

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Let me go to Andrew,
then I'll come to you, Joan.

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Just two things.
First of all, you know, my reaction,

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"What was all that about?"
I was talking to my colleague,

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the broadcaster Shelagh Fogarty
on LBC, and she'd been texted

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by a friend of hers who,
when the news broke,

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was on a train carriage
full of people,

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and everybody in the carriage
was crying.

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Absolutely extraordinary.
Now that's a surprise, is it not?

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It is! But I... just to take up
this point about family,

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I think having made a reference
to her closeness to her father,

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that family was obsessed with
the disappointment of Edward VIII,

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and his, as it were, bad behaviour,

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and they saw themselves inheriting
a duty of a perhaps rather heavier

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weight than it would have been
had it been a natural succession.

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Because he had provoked
the abdication crisis?

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The abdication crisis
had shocked them all,

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particularly the Queen Mother,
who hated...

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Let me come on to the Queen again.

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She was on the throne for 70 years,
our monarch for 70 years.

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What were her greatest achievements,
Andrew Marr, over that time?

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To put it really brutally,
and I hope not too crudely,

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not screwing up.
I mean, in all that time,

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there were questions of whether
she should have gone to Aberfan

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earlier than she actually did,
and there's been all the problems

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with her children
that we know about,

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but in terms of doing her job,
meeting scores of heads of state,

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endless Prime Ministers,
huge political crises,

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moments around the world,
again and again,

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she never,
ever once caused a problem.

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She always said the right thing,
she always calmed things down,

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and I think in terms of
our own domestic politics,

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she was able to provide,
if I can put it like this,

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a sort of gentle anaesthetic
at the heart of political crises

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which kept the thing ongoing,
kept the show on the road.

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It's very hard to put it in a single
phrase, as you can tell, Andrew,

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but that's what I think
it was all about.

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Was it just not screwing up,
Chandrika,

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or did she not make,
in areas of the Commonwealth,

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or Ireland, or,
going with major changes,

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didn't she make a positive
contribution there?

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Well, absolutely.
I think we need to really recognise

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the enormous contribution

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made by the whole institution
of the constitutional monarchy

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with her as central to it,

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to strengthening the bonds
of common culture,

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as well as the relationship
of the individual to the state,

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in many respects far better than
elected representatives,

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dare I say it, over the last
70 years, have managed to do.

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I want to show you the Queen -
this is her in Dublin,

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this is the first time
a British head of state has gone

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to Ireland since Ireland gained
its independence in the early 1920s.

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This is her speaking in Dublin
in 2011.

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A Uachtarain...

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..agus a chairde.

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Wow!

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Prince Philip and I
are delighted to be here,

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and to experience at first hand
Ireland's world-famous hospitality.

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Of course the relationship
has not always been straightforward,

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nor has the record over
the centuries been entirely benign.

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It is a sad and regrettable reality
that through the history,

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our islands have experienced
more than their fair share

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of heartache, turbulence and loss.

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To all those who have suffered as
a consequence of our troubled past,

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I extend my sincere thoughts
and deep sympathy.

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With the benefit of
historical hindsight,

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we can all see things which we would
wish had been done differently,

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or not at all.

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Key phrase there, "or not at all".

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Which spoke volumes, Archbishop,
didn't it?

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In a sense what we see there

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is something we maybe didn't
appreciate enough at the time.

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The Queen was a huge diplomatic
asset to the government of the day.

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We saw that dealing with
the Commonwealth,

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when things were going badly,

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and we saw it there above all
in Ireland.

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Who was it who said,
"If you stand still long enough,

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"you'll become a radical"?

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And I think what I see in
Her late Majesty the Queen

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was her steadfastness
to a certain set of values,

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to her Christian faith, to
the outworking of that in service,

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00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,080
and there we see in that
remarkable piece of footage...

234
00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:19,360
A remarkable understatement,
but reconciliation.

235
00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:26,440
These values shaped her whole life
and now we sit here thinking

236
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,000
it's precisely those things
that we need

237
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,000
in the life of our nation today.

238
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,240
I think also I would say,
speaking personally,

239
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,840
I've been hugely impressed by the
things we've heard King Charles say

240
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,320
in these first few days -
on Friday evening,

241
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,440
again in Westminster Hall
this evening -

242
00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,280
where it seems to me to be clear

243
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:53,720
that he wants his contribution to be
shaped by that continuity of values.

244
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,440
Can I just quickly add... Yes.

245
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:57,240
..you know, it's not just
in this country

246
00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,240
that we've seen this outpouring
of respect and grief.

247
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:02,880
It's all over the world.

248
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,120
You know, she's possibly
the first global monarch, truly.

249
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,400
Including Ireland!
Including Ireland,

250
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,640
including places in the Continent,
France and Germany,

251
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,960
where the idea of reconciliation
was very much appreciated

252
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,880
after the World Wars.

253
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,240
But also in the Commonwealth,
widely defined.

254
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,760
You know, I think there is
a certain genuineness of warmth,

255
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,280
and that isn't only,
dare I say it, about sentiment.

256
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,600
It is also about how productive
she has been

257
00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,440
as head of the Commonwealth,

258
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,000
and I can, just a quick example
of her role

259
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,280
in helping the Commonwealth

260
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:44,520
in the process of ending apartheid
in South Africa.

261
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:47,800
You know, I'm always reminded of
when she finally went back

262
00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,680
to South Africa in 1995
with Nelson Mandela,

263
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,640
and what he said,
he said, "My dear Elizabeth."

264
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,560
And he made it very clear
where the nation stood

265
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,800
in respect to her role
within the wider Commonwealth.

266
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,680
These are real achievements. They
are real, and you could say, Joan,

267
00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,280
that the Commonwealth
might not have happened

268
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,240
in the way it did without the Queen.

269
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:14,320
She gave it care and concern
from the start, when our politicians

270
00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,360
were often looking to America
or to Europe or elsewhere.

271
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,440
And when it got into trouble,
as the professor mentions,

272
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,160
over the attitude
to apartheid South Africa,

273
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,200
the Queen helped
keep the show on the road.

274
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,800
I think she established
the credibility forever

275
00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,760
of a constitutional monarch
who knows how to be that role.

276
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,720
She was consistent,
and she was, without tremor,

277
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,680
loyal to the values that she held.
And we all knew what they were.

278
00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,200
She made it quite clear what they
were, and we held to them with her.

279
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,200
And I think that's a really major
historical contribution

280
00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,880
to establish monarchy
in that kind of role.

281
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,440
Andrew, what were the low points
in her reign?

282
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,520
Well, I mentioned Aberfan,
where that terrible,

283
00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,400
terrible tragedy happened,
and she was advised

284
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,080
not to go too quickly -
the Palace said,

285
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,680
"No, no, don't go too quickly,
you'll just cause trouble,"

286
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,480
and she waited and she waited
and by the time she arrived there

287
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,400
there was a lot of anger
and hostility

288
00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,240
because she had waited for so long.

289
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,200
They were delighted to see her
and it was all fine in the end,

290
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,280
but it was certainly a misstep.

291
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,400
And then certainly during
the turbulent 1970s, you know,

292
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,400
there were periods when there was

293
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,000
a kind of very, very angry
republicanism around.

294
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,120
You will remember the scenes at
Stirling University, for instance.

295
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:39,440
So there was that.

296
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,000
I think for her
the murder of Lord Mountbatten

297
00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:47,280
was certainly a grim low point,
and it did seem that

298
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,600
sort of the fabric
of the British Isles

299
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,840
was beginning to come apart,
in a way.

300
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,640
Wasn't one of the low points,
though, Andrew,

301
00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,200
the immediate aftermath
of Diana's death? Ah.

302
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,960
When she didn't seem to understand
the significance

303
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,240
of the outpouring of grief.
So this is, I think,

304
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,840
about the difference
in generational attitudes.

305
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,320
We have to remember, the Queen
was part of the wartime generation,

306
00:17:10,360 --> 00:17:13,720
where the way you responded
to a problem or grief

307
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,880
was you buttoned your lip,
you buttoned up,

308
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,320
you put your chin out
and you just got on with it.

309
00:17:19,360 --> 00:17:22,320
And that kind of stoicism,
to younger people,

310
00:17:22,360 --> 00:17:25,760
seems absolutely absurd,
unfeeling and so forth.

311
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,400
And so I think there was a big
generational problem there.

312
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,880
She didn't get it, that's absolutely
true. And it has...

313
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,280
The rest of the country, sorry,
the rest of the country

314
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,800
was going through a kind of
weirdly Mediterranean outpouring

315
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,120
of open, empathetic grief

316
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,600
of a kind we really haven't seen in
Britain for a very, very long time.

317
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,400
So it perhaps wasn't surprising that
she was two steps behind that one.

318
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,680
But you know, I think
that surely has also a great deal

319
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,280
to do with who it was who had died.

320
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:57,360
You know, it was about
Princess Diana, and her own,

321
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,560
if you like, the sense of creation
of the myth around her.

322
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:06,080
So you know, I'm wondering how much
we need to take that into account

323
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:10,760
when trying to explain the level
of criticism that was meted out.

324
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:12,560
I was only going to make the point,

325
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,640
I agree entirely agree with
what Andrew said,

326
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,640
it was a very strange episode
in our history, all of that,

327
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:21,240
but I think what's also become clear
with the passing of time

328
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:26,520
is that actually the care that
she showed to William and to Harry

329
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,480
through that time, which they've now
sometimes spoken about,

330
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,480
shows a whole other side
that of course we didn't see.

331
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,880
Was it her personal popularity
and status

332
00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:43,440
that stifled any republican movement
from gaining traction?

333
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,480
That's a difficult one,
because she ruled for 70 years,

334
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,720
so when you say a republican
movement, you know,

335
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,960
you need to be more specific
about when and where,

336
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,920
because this is a long period
of time. I mean, you know,

337
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,840
we had someone like Malcolm
Muggeridge in the 1960s,

338
00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:03,000
early 1960s, saying that the
English are bored of the monarchy.

339
00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,840
You know, there is a sense of...
But he wasn't a movement,

340
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,720
he was just Malcolm Muggeridge.

341
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,360
But what I'm saying is,
disenchantment with the Queen

342
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:16,160
as head of the constitutional
monarchy is not new in Britain.

343
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,600
But one of the interesting things
that I think we need to recognise

344
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,400
with the constitutional monarchy
in Britain

345
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,240
is that it is a perfect microcosm
of the British nation,

346
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,880
which has historically always
preferred evolution to revolution.

347
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,440
Well, you were a republican once,
Andrew, weren't you?

348
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,680
I would describe myself
as a Queenist, not a monarchist,

349
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,520
is what I would say. So the Queen
tempered your republican instincts?

350
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,480
Absolutely,
and for various reasons -

351
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,040
most important one being, I think,
her gender, actually.

352
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,200
Having a woman at the top
of the British state for so long

353
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,320
somehow softened us as a country,
I think.

354
00:19:54,360 --> 00:19:58,240
I was talking to Harriet Harman,
the Mother of the House,

355
00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,760
about this, and she said, "Do you
know what, very straightforward,

356
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,120
"the Queen was the most important
woman in the 20th century, bar none.

357
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,520
"And by being there,
she has made it easier for us

358
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,440
"to have female prime ministers,

359
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,360
"and made female authority
less weird in this country."

360
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,480
And I think there is
something in that.

361
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,480
Will King Charles be an asset
against republicanism?

362
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:23,760
I think it's very significant,
that the Queen's gender

363
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,880
mattered a great deal, and of course
when she inherited, I mean,

364
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,920
the excitement of having a woman as
the monarch was just overwhelming.

365
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,920
And it did colour the whole trend

366
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,960
of the way the country developed
after that.

367
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,400
Charles will have different problems

368
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:46,760
and he will need to be
perhaps circumspect

369
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,240
more than he might naturally be,

370
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,160
because he has a lot
of strong opinions,

371
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,840
and I'm sure he has views
on feminism

372
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,200
and all sorts of social issues.

373
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,480
But one of the interesting things
about the Queen

374
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:01,760
was that she did not
follow her nation

375
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,600
in becoming touchy-feely
in the way that Diana did.

376
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,720
She didn't ever
unbutton her emotions,

377
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,360
and she came from a generation
where that was seen as a virtue,

378
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,720
but we've lived through an age in
which to confess all your feelings

379
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,280
and show how upset you are

380
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,560
is considered authentic.
The highest virtue.

381
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,480
And that what's so interesting
about her.

382
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:25,720
In a sense we all live in a society

383
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,640
driven by kind of trivial
media celebrity,

384
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,080
where being the utmost you can be
is the best thing you can be,

385
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:34,960
and the Queen always went
in the other direction.

386
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,160
I mean, I think there were...
Those who wanted a republic

387
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,240
knew it was going to be tough going
as long as the Queen

388
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,640
was still on the throne,
because of her personal popularity,

389
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,160
and that rubbed off on the
institution to some extent as well.

390
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,120
But now it's King Charles,
does he, Archbishop,

391
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,680
does he have the emollience,
does he have her ability

392
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,200
always to remain gracious
and polite?

393
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,840
To bite your tongue when you really
want to let go? Can he do that?

394
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,120
Well, I would say again
what I said a moment ago,

395
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,040
that I think the early signs
have been actually rather moving.

396
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,600
Not only the way that
he's spoken about her,

397
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,600
but the things that
he's spoken about

398
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,440
in terms of the way he intends
to inhabit this role.

399
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,840
And the thing about King Charles,
as we know, is...

400
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,960
It would be true of
any 73-year-old man, wouldn't it?

401
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:30,800
He comes with huge life experience
in the way the Queen didn't,

402
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,720
and some of that's been
pretty tough.

403
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:36,000
But I think it's given him
a gentleness and a humility.

404
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,160
And the other thing is, about that,

405
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,160
"If you stand still long enough
you're a radical" -

406
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,800
the most important issue facing
our planet at the moment

407
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,680
is how will we inhabit
the planet itself?

408
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:51,320
And we know that that's an issue
which matters deeply to him,

409
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:56,160
and to see that now at the centre
of constitutional monarchy,

410
00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,640
somebody who will hold a witness
to that, which I'm sure he will...

411
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,600
He'll have to be very, very careful
how he does it,

412
00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,920
but I think that will be welcomed.
I agree.

413
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,360
Well, who is the real Charles,
though?

414
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,160
Who's the real Charles?

415
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,600
Is he the one who greeted
the crowds, as we all saw,

416
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,400
as he entered Buckingham Palace,

417
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,360
something we hadn't really seen him
do before, or is he the man,

418
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,480
as we saw here,
who can be very demanding?

419
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,000
There, asking someone to...

420
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,440
Well, I was there,
I was standing there -

421
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,440
I nearly stood forward myself
to move that.

422
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,760
He's not being demanding,
I mean, it was precarious,

423
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,000
there was about to be ink spilt
over the whole thing.

424
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,680
I can't imagine the Queen
doing that. Well, I think...

425
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,240
I think you're being a bit unfair.

426
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,000
It was clear to everyone in the room
the ink's about to be spilt,

427
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,480
so I was about to go forward.

428
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:49,680
On the underlying question,

429
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,920
I mean, we all know because
we've seen him all of these years,

430
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,200
he can be tetchy, he can be
difficult, he can be self-pitying.

431
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,800
Like the rest of us, he's a human
being with real flaws and faults.

432
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,240
But I think he's also
a very intelligent man

433
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,200
who has studied the role
as his mother did it,

434
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,200
and studied the problems
in the past.

435
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,840
The whole royal family
has been very much aware of

436
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:12,560
when things have gone wrong
in the past.

437
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,400
Queen Victoria, you know,
retreating to Windsor after...

438
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,680
After the death of Albert.
The Widow of Windsor.

439
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,880
There was republicanism
in the country then.

440
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,280
Stronger then than there's been
in the past 50 years. Absolutely.

441
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,200
And I think they're very aware
that in a lively,

442
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,400
disputatious democracy,
which we are all part of,

443
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,520
constitutional monarchy
is never quite safe.

444
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,960
It always has to explain itself

445
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,720
and reach out and change
again and again.

446
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,120
And I think he understands that.

447
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,000
Chandrika, I'll come to you,
then to Joan.

448
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,520
I think this is, you know,

449
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,320
part of the myth about
the unchanging Queen.

450
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:46,960
This is simply not true.

451
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,680
If you look at
the kind of evolution,

452
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,960
both in terms of
the Queen's own role,

453
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,480
but also in terms of the
adjustments made in the institution

454
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,800
of the constitutional monarchy,

455
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,440
I think we need to separate
those two,

456
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,680
you know, the individual
from the institution.

457
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,440
I think in both those...

458
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,200
If you actually study, there has
been a great deal of evolution,

459
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,320
and after all, it was the Queen
who said, "Lessons must be learned."

460
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,520
Albeit in a different context,
but she said that.

461
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,240
Even her voice changed over time.
It did. Indeed.

462
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,480
I mean, I think
you're absolutely right,

463
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,440
and I think a little change
we've seen in Charles, I think,

464
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,960
in the last couple days,
is he's saying "I" not "We".

465
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,760
Just little changes
which start inhabiting

466
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:33,840
the role in a different way.

467
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,840
When we look at Charles, Joan,
unlike his mother,

468
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,960
who hardly ever opined on anything -

469
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,240
we really didn't know,
we kind of thought we knew,

470
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,000
but we didn't know
what she thought about the issues.

471
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,600
I mean, we know a lot
about Charles thinks,

472
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,440
from architecture to good grammar
to climate change

473
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,520
to industrial farming.
Does that make a difference?

474
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,280
I think it's fair to say he has
an opinion about everything. Yeah.

475
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,760
I mean, he's a lively,
intelligent person... Now he's King!

476
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,040
..and he's been fed with information
every time he goes anywhere,

477
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,960
so he's an authority on a great
many things, and he has opinion.

478
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,440
You can see him talking
knowledgeably to many, many people.

479
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,680
So he has a thirst
for knowing things.

480
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,960
And on this subject,
we are all of us hypocrites.

481
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,600
When we agree with him,
we think it's fantastic,

482
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,320
and when we don't,
we're inflamed and furious.

483
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:24,760
But he's going to find it very, very
hard to swallow his opinions.

484
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,640
What happens when the Brazilians

485
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,040
bring a delegation of ministers
over, given his strong views

486
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,680
about what they're doing
to the Amazon?

487
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,720
What happens when the Chinese
come over and he's head of state,

488
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,600
has to greet Chinese officials,
given what he thinks about

489
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,640
their treatment of the Uighurs
or Tibet?

490
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,960
He is going to find it
extremely difficult.

491
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,680
But he's gone on record as saying
already in his public statement,

492
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,760
"I know now, now that I have
become the King,

493
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,560
"that I will not be able
to indulge the sort of opinions

494
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,400
"that I have been doing so far,
and I must leave them,"

495
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,840
he said rather pointedly,
"for others to take up,"

496
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,760
nudging the Prince of Wales,
I think.

497
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,600
He knows it in his head,
but does he feel it

498
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,120
and can he act it in his heart?

499
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,640
Because he feels strongly
about these issues. Exactly.

500
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,320
He might not be able
to help himself.

501
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,080
However, maybe he'll learn
from the Queen and her discipline.

502
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:13,640
I think the conversations
with prime ministers

503
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,960
will be very interesting, don't you?
ANDREW CHUCKLES

504
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,160
Archbishop, while we've
got you here, I mean,

505
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,120
you met the Queen many times
in private. Well, several times.

506
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,960
Was the women behind closed doors
different from the one

507
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,160
in the constant public gaze? Yeah.
Well, I'd just say two things.

508
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,880
Well, of course,
because that's true of all of us,

509
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,400
but more true. Tell us how.

510
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,880
Well, the two things I noticed
was one,

511
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,240
which has often been mentioned,
incredibly good humour,

512
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,320
which you didn't tend to see
in public.

513
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:45,920
You saw her sometimes
bursting out laughing,

514
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,840
but she was very witty,
and enjoyed a joke

515
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,800
and could make a joke,
and I saw that on several occasions.

516
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,880
But the other thing I would come
back to is her Christian faith,

517
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,560
which indeed is also very true
of Charles.

518
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:04,960
Er, these are both people who
say their prayers, who go to church,

519
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,680
who understand that
as a motivation for life,

520
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,840
and I think it's that
more than anything

521
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,240
which has made the difference.

522
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,480
So how would you advise Charles
to men remain disciplined

523
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,120
when he comes up against people
that he strongly disagrees with?

524
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,160
Well, it's going to be hugely hard.
The Queen wouldn't say a word. Yeah.

525
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,040
But I think he has looked
and learned from his mother

526
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,400
for a long time,
and I have confidence

527
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,040
that he will learn
how to do that.

528
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,200
But on the question,
may I quickly...? Yeah.

529
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,720
Just to say that he has already
backpedalled a great deal.

530
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,840
You know, what was that
about Defender of Faith

531
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,880
as opposed to Defender of. You know,
he's already,

532
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,840
you can already see... He talked
about being Defender of Faiths,

533
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,440
plural? Faith, as opposed to
Defender of THE Faith. Yes.

534
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,920
I mean, that was a long time ago,

535
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,960
but also, I think as the role
has become closer,

536
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,440
I think he's also understood,
you know,

537
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,600
a high tide lifts all the boats.

538
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,280
I think he knows, as indeed
other faith leaders know,

539
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,760
that a strong.... I mean,
you might see I would say this,

540
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,360
but a strong Church of England
serving the nation in a generous way

541
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,760
is good for all faiths. Sure.
I totally agree with you.

542
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,360
And I think he understands that.
I totally agree with you.

543
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,040
But we were talking about
the difference between reality

544
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,200
and, you know... And the inner and
the outer. Indeed. Sorry, I... Yeah.

545
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,520
This is a good example of him

546
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,960
let's say understanding how he will
have to inhabit the role.

547
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,360
Or it could be a minus,

548
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,440
because maybe he was right
about faiths rather than faith.

549
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,720
But let me... We're coming to
the end of this particular segment.

550
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,800
Let me just ask you briefly,
these are big shoes to fill,

551
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,840
obviously,
as we've been talking about.

552
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,640
Is the monarchy safe in the hands
of King Charles?

553
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,040
Well, if I pick up, you know,
Charles III with the three Cs,

554
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,280
if I may, you know, climate change,
the countryside

555
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,320
and the Commonwealth, I think
if he tries to stick to those three

556
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,680
and does a good job on all three,
I think it's fairly safe.

557
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:01,520
It depends on him.

558
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,680
I think even now,
he must be thinking continually

559
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,360
of how he can be effective in areas
where he wants to be effective,

560
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,800
which he certainly will,
and how he can sustain

561
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,160
the required neutrality
of a constitutional monarch.

562
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,520
And he will be applying himself
to that,

563
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,480
and whether he succeeds or not will
colour the future of the monarchy.

564
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,640
Stephen Cottrell. Even kings
have to bend the knee to someone.

565
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:28,360
The Queen really knew that.

566
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,120
The most moving bit
of her coronation

567
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,600
was when she walked steadfastly past
the throne and knelt at the altar.

568
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,600
And if Charles does the same,
which I believe he will, then yes.

569
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:43,280
Andrew Marr? Is the monarchy safe
in the hands of Charles III?

570
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,320
We don't really know him
properly yet,

571
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,600
we've just been discussing that.
He has to make us love him somehow.

572
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,800
He has to get us to warm to him
in a way that hasn't happened

573
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,880
quite so much
when he was Prince of Wales.

574
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,080
He is changing, he has changed,

575
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,720
but, you know, I think
he understands it's the job ahead.

576
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,320
And by the way,
I love the three Cs, absolutely.

577
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,640
Climate change, Commonwealth
and countryside.

578
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,680
As you said, that's because
you agree with them.

579
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,120
That's because I agree with them.
So do I!

580
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,120
And that's why you mentioned it.
Thank you all.

581
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,720
Now, in a moment,
we'll move on to talk about

582
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,880
what the second Elizabethan era
really stood for.

583
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,480
Since 1952, I have witnessed
the transformation

584
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,280
of the international landscape

585
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,240
through which this country
must chart its course.

586
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,720
This has been matched by no less
rapid developments at home...

587
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,840
..in the devolved shape
of our nation,

588
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,880
in the structure of society,

589
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,360
in technology and communications,

590
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,520
in our work and in the way we live.

591
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,680
Change has become a constant.

592
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,560
The way we embrace it
defines our future.

593
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,040
I believe that many
of the traditional values

594
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,360
etched across our history

595
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,040
equip us well
for this age of change.

596
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,480
We are a moderate, pragmatic people.

597
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,640
We are outward-looking
and open-minded,

598
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,160
well suited by temperament
and language to our shrinking world.

599
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,720
We are inventive and creative.

600
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:38,240
Think of the record of British
inventions over the past 50 years,

601
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,480
or our present thriving art scene.

602
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:48,560
We also take pride in our tradition
of fairness and tolerance.

603
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,320
The consolidation
of our richly multicultural

604
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:57,680
and multi-faith society,
a major development since 1952,

605
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:03,440
is being achieved remarkably
peacefully and with much goodwill.

606
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:08,800
So how will we define and judge
the Second Elizabethan Age?

607
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,560
I'm joined now
by Baroness Valerie Amos,

608
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,520
former president
of the Privy Council

609
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,480
and the first black person
to join the Order of the Garter

610
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,800
in its 700-year history.

611
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,120
Actor Adjoa Andoh,
who made theatre history

612
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,800
when she directed Richard II

613
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,760
and it became the first major play

614
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,760
in which all the cast and crew
were women of colour.

615
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,800
You may recognise her also
from Bridgeton.

616
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,240
And Joan Bakewell and Andrew Marr
are with us still.

617
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,720
Now, the Queen was
our monarch for 70 years.

618
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,120
Many, many things happened
over these seven decades.

619
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,400
But Valerie Amos, does that make it
an Elizabethan Age?

620
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,640
Well, I think it makes it an age

621
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,320
where we saw
a huge amount of change.

622
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,520
We saw huge change in Britain,

623
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,240
we're now a multiethnic,
diverse society.

624
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,480
We have seen
our international reputation

625
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:05,520
shift and change.

626
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,320
I think the challenge
about talking about this

627
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:13,040
as an Elizabethan Age is that
you have a constitutional monarch

628
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,960
who has had a huge influence
globally

629
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,640
as well as in our own country,

630
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:23,080
but there are also lots of other
things associated with this.

631
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:27,120
You know, what successive
governments have done, for example.

632
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,200
So we like to label things,

633
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:34,480
but I think it's slightly
problematic to start to say

634
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,160
all of these changes
are just because of the Queen.

635
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,520
I guess that's the point I'm making,

636
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:45,280
that probably nearly all of
these changes would have happened

637
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,760
with or without Elizabeth
on the throne.

638
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,560
So does that make it
an Elizabethan Age?

639
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,600
Well, she has been...
She is Elizabeth, she has been Queen

640
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,240
over this whole period,
it's an Elizabethan Age.

641
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,960
I think there's something tonal
about the Queen

642
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,000
that I've sort of watched
and delighted in.

643
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,720
I've only met her once,
but...the curiosity.

644
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,040
If you see her being interviewed
or talking to somebody,

645
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,120
you know, it's an actors' thing -
she leads from the eyes.

646
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,880
She's there, she's listening,
she's paying attention,

647
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,200
she's being delighted,
she's curious.

648
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:24,120
And I think that, that engagement,
that curiosity,

649
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,400
and then the access to all
the information, all the places,

650
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:30,400
all the heads of state,
all those meetings with, you know,

651
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,840
from Winston Churchill
through to Liz Truss -

652
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,840
I mean, that's an enormous amount
of information

653
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,000
that she's been absorb... Look,
look there, she's just, she's so...

654
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,520
She's really paying attention,

655
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,680
and I think there's something
about that which colours her age.

656
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:49,040
She's interested in people,
she's interested in development,

657
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,600
she's interested in how one
deals with tricky situations,

658
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,440
and I think we have come tonally
to lean into her interest.

659
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,080
So you know, watching
the Queen's speech,

660
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,040
"Can you say something of use to us,
please, Your Majesty?

661
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,240
"Because we seem to be
flapping around in a void."

662
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,160
You know, I think that she's been
terrific at all of that.

663
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,960
Well, I agree with Adjoa
in relation to that,

664
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,120
but I think the challenge is,
and if you look at

665
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,320
what's been happening for example
in some of social media,

666
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,760
and some of the critique
that we have been seeing,

667
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,000
is that there is
a sort of conflation, I think,

668
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,320
that begins to happen,

669
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:33,680
which is the role that
the late Queen played as monarch,

670
00:36:33,720 --> 00:36:39,000
but also some of the things that
successive governments have done,

671
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:43,080
which have not been about her
and her role,

672
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,120
which have been challenged
and questioned. So...

673
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,040
And that's why I say that,
you know,

674
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,680
how we define
the Elizabethan Age has to be...

675
00:36:56,720 --> 00:36:59,680
You know, there are nuances
related to it.

676
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:01,240
So Adjoa is absolutely right,

677
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,040
this is someone that oversaw seven
decades, but at the same time,

678
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,120
there are some other aspects of it

679
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,120
which I think we have to be cautious
and careful about.

680
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,120
This is a very different country
from the one

681
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,400
that the Queen
came to the throne in.

682
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,320
Do you think that on the whole,

683
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,600
she was largely comfortable
with all these big changes?

684
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,000
To a large extent, I think so.

685
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,440
I think what was important
for the nation,

686
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,120
and which therefore coloured
the years to come,

687
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,440
was that when she succeeded,
she was young, and she was a woman.

688
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,440
And both of those were new,

689
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,320
since Victoria.

690
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,920
And the fact that you were led,
as it were, by a young woman

691
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,600
had a psychological effect that
people weren't quite aware of.

692
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,440
It opened up sort of avenues
of creativity, of sensibilities,

693
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,640
of attitudes to family life,

694
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,040
of attitudes to what a good society
might be.

695
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,040
Didn't always thrive on that.

696
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,760
But I think
those two characteristics

697
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,920
made a big difference, set
a template for people's thinking.

698
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,240
Do you think, Andrew,
that her reassuring presence

699
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:19,760
and seeming permanence, as well,
for all of our life,

700
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,120
or all of the lives of people here,

701
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,280
do you think that made change
more palatable

702
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,120
for those who were wary of it?

703
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,560
I think it maybe went
even beyond that.

704
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,040
I mean, we've talked about how,
when she came in,

705
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,880
Britain was not only
a very hierarchical society,

706
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,120
it was an almost entirely white
society.

707
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,960
And I think her deep engagement
with the Commonwealth...

708
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,960
There's that very famous photograph

709
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,040
of her dancing with Nkrumah
early on,

710
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,200
when the colour bar
was still across the States,

711
00:38:47,240 --> 00:38:49,680
when South Africa was still
going through apartheid.

712
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,880
I think that meant
that she was bringing

713
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,840
to the apex of British society
an open-mindedness.

714
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,280
She talked about being open
and outward-looking and tolerance,

715
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,880
and it did make things easier
and allow change to happen faster.

716
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,520
And that, I mean, the photographs of
her with Nkrumah,

717
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,200
I mean, she's gorgeous,
she's gorgeous,

718
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:10,240
she's grinning from ear to eyes.

719
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,040
She's having a good time, isn't she?
Absolutely having a good time.

720
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:16,400
He seemed quite happy too!
Well, why would you not be?

721
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,920
"I'm the first democratically
elected president,

722
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,800
"here I am dancing with the Queen.
Hurrah."

723
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,400
But there's something
about that legacy.

724
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,240
I know people... My father's family
are from Ghana.

725
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,480
I know people who were there,
who remember how fabulous it was.

726
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,600
And I've also heard people
in the last few days,

727
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,560
in this country and in Africa,

728
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,600
talking about how they feel like
they've lost Mum.

729
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:41,720
And Mother is a term of respect
for an older woman,

730
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,840
and it's a really emotionally
sincerely held feeling,

731
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,920
that sense of loss,

732
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,800
of focus having gone away

733
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,960
from something that felt trusted
and sincere.

734
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:56,720
I think in answer to
Andrew's question,

735
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,080
which is a difficult one to
answer... It is. ..which is

736
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,920
did she really make a difference,
I do think her gender was important.

737
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,240
I somehow think
a lot of those changes,

738
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,960
had we had a kind of militaristic,
male, bristling King,

739
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,720
you know, during the 1960s
and the 1970s,

740
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:12,960
things would have felt different
and harsher,

741
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,040
and those changes
would have been harder.

742
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,680
Yes, but I think there's an
additional thing, which is that,

743
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:22,000
I think for those of us who,
as it were,

744
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:25,360
grew up over time with her,

745
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,200
watching what sometimes
were very subtle changes,

746
00:40:29,240 --> 00:40:33,440
but also quite major changes, we
were able to see that progression.

747
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,360
I think for younger people
coming through,

748
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,360
sometimes they felt the change
wasn't fast enough. Mmm.

749
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,200
So how you marry up
and balance those two things

750
00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:45,920
I think is a major challenge
going forward.

751
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,720
Joan. It's hard to remember

752
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:51,200
how prejudiced the country was
when she became Queen.

753
00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:55,240
I mean, it was bigoted,
it was racist, it was, you know,

754
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,560
"No blacks, no Irish" in windows.
I mean, it was intolerable.

755
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,320
And she sailed through that

756
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,760
through her love of
the Commonwealth,

757
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,000
and she made a huge difference,

758
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,680
so that when people arrived from...
On the Windrush,

759
00:41:09,720 --> 00:41:12,240
they came because she was their...
She was their mother.

760
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,040
She was the figure,
she was their Queen. And that...

761
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,800
And she felt that too,
and I think she was,

762
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,200
she was instinctively a pioneer

763
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,280
in the greater tolerance
that we have today.

764
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,720
Well, we're certainly
a much more diverse country

765
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,560
than we were in 1952.

766
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,040
But have we become less class-bound,

767
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,960
or has the monarchy been a hindrance
to changing class in Britain?

768
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,560
Well, class is the C word
we never talk about, isn't it?

769
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,160
I just did! You just did. Yeah.

770
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:49,280
I think class is still as deep
and intense as it ever was.

771
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,360
It may just have a variety
of faces now,

772
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,600
newer faces,
but I think we are still

773
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,440
incredibly class-bound
in this country.

774
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,800
And had the monarchy been
a hindrance to changing that?

775
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,680
Well, you know, I think
the Duke of Edinburgh Award,

776
00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:08,400
I think the Prince's Trust...

777
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,400
The Prince's Trust
is a fantastic organisation.

778
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:16,080
I think there are ways in which
those, that sort of focus

779
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,560
is making inroads into shifting
the possibilities of people's lives.

780
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,320
But, you know,
we live in a monarchy.

781
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,000
It's a hierarchical structure
that we operate within.

782
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,440
But I think there is something
about, you know,

783
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,480
economic disadvantage,

784
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,880
about the fact that we don't like
to talk about class,

785
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:41,760
the way that class imbues
so many different areas of life

786
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:46,560
that actually is
incredibly difficult

787
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:50,360
and challenging for us to address.

788
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,520
And I think we can say the
same about race as well.

789
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,720
I think that there are some real
conversations that we have to have,

790
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,560
open conversations,
about our history,

791
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,400
what that means
for us collectively,

792
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,080
and how we can work through that

793
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,360
to create the kind of society
that we really want to have.

794
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:12,680
And part of what we do,

795
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:15,880
and we kind of say it's a national
characteristic, is that we sort of

796
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,360
button up and don't talk want
to about those things.

797
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:19,680
We have got to talk about them,

798
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:22,240
and the impact on our young people
in particular.

799
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:23,960
And we are talking about them
right now.

800
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,000
My question to you, Andrew Marr,
is this.

801
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:32,080
A criticism of monarchy,
of royalty, is that...

802
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:33,600
particularly in this country,

803
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:35,960
probably not as true
in Scandinavia or Holland,

804
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:40,160
but in this country is it represents
the apex of a class system.

805
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,360
A, is that true, and B, if it is,

806
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,520
did the Queen really do anything
to change that?

807
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,160
Well, it's a bit true.

808
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,320
I mean, it's true that
the royal family

809
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,800
don't regard themselves as part
of the aristocracy

810
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,200
because they think the aristocracy
are a bit below them.

811
00:43:53,240 --> 00:43:56,160
So to that extent, they're not
tied into the aristocracy.

812
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:00,000
But I don't know about you, Andrew,
but I felt a slight shiver of,

813
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,160
I don't know, unease,
at those words like liege,

814
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,520
and we are, you know, he is
our liege lord, and we are subjects.

815
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,480
I don't feel like a subject.

816
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,360
And I think there is
a lot of that language

817
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,800
still embedded in the monarchy,
which is difficult.

818
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,480
On the other hand, I'd say that

819
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:19,680
almost every Western market-based
society has an elite.

820
00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:23,440
Look at the way the French elite has
been able to entrench itself

821
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,720
at the top of that society through
the Grandes Ecoles in Paris.

822
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:30,280
They are quite democratic,
the Grandes Ecoles.

823
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,120
Yeah, well... It doesn't matter
who you were born into.

824
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:34,880
They're democratic until, well,

825
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,600
once you've got into that level,
then you are part of

826
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,640
a very, very powerful and often
quite resented elite in France,

827
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:42,960
and yet they have a presidency,

828
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,480
they dealt with their monarchy some
time ago, so I don't think monarchy

829
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:50,840
and elite structures necessarily
are the same thing or go together.

830
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:56,320
But I do think that this monarchy
has been part of a system,

831
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,520
a kind of pyramid, and
they're at the top of it

832
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,680
and we are aware of our place and
that has kind of been bad for us.

833
00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:04,240
And very much so.
As a family, they are an extremely

834
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:09,080
rich family with several very
large houses, lots of property,

835
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,560
they send their children
to public schools,

836
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,680
they behave like the moneyed class.

837
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:18,600
They haven't made any
concessions to that, in the way

838
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,480
they conduct their own family life,

839
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,080
and I think it would be quite
interesting to see whether Charles

840
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,840
can have any influence on that.

841
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,800
I think it would be interesting for
example to watch the education

842
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:36,120
of Prince William's children and see
whether there is a broadening into

843
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,640
the different class system

844
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:41,600
rather than being part of it,
which they are.

845
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:46,720
Do you regard yourself as a part
of the Elizabethan age?

846
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,440
Um, I do to some extent.

847
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,120
My grandfathers were factory
workers and I was a scholarship girl

848
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,360
who joined the middle classes by
virtue of going to university,

849
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,840
so I'm, you know, yes,
I am part of it.

850
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,880
I am rather typical in that way,
I think.

851
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,840
On the issue we're talking
about the relationship

852
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,480
of the monarchy and class
and whether that could change,

853
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:13,920
it seems to me that King Charles
has got off to a strong start.

854
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,040
His address to the nation
was wildly received,

855
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,600
his meeting the people
outside Buckingham Palace,

856
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,560
other things, he just seems
to have set the right tone.

857
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,760
But I don't see him
as someone who is really going

858
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:30,440
to change the apex of
a class society position

859
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,120
that the monarchy is in.
He is part of that.

860
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:34,640
He is part of it,

861
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:39,600
and I think he will follow in the
footsteps of his mother in that way.

862
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:45,720
But I hope that he will take some of
those three Cs concerns,

863
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,360
we heard about earlier, that he will
pull some of those things

864
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,360
along with him and
to soften, expand,

865
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:58,080
put more breath and air into
this iteration of the monarchy.

866
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:01,640
I met him through
the Royal Shakespeare Company.

867
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,880
You know, "flights of angels sing
thee to thy rest."

868
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,280
I will be saying that at my
parents' funeral as well,

869
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,080
it is the most beautiful thing.

870
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:17,600
He has an interest in using culture
as a way of expanding conversations

871
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,400
and allowing people
into their own creativity

872
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,360
and, you know, their own sense of
what they can make of themselves

873
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,800
in the world. That is
where we have to go,

874
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,280
free people up to be their best
selves, to use

875
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:33,880
their ingenuity and their intuition
and education and their instinct,

876
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,760
and I think he has
a sniff of that about him.

877
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,400
I think that is one of the great
strengths of the Elizabethan age.

878
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,640
I would say it has been defined
by the blossoming of

879
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,960
cultural expression at every level,
right through our society.

880
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,680
A bit like the first
Elizabethan age. Pardon?

881
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:50,840
A bit like the first
Elizabethan age.

882
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,240
Indeed, in that respect, yes,

883
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:54,960
we have seen the most amazing
and continuing creativity.

884
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,840
But less burning of Catholics.
Yes.

885
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:02,000
It has made Britain what
they call a soft superpower.

886
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,960
In soft power, we are a superpower.

887
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,920
Because of our creativity.

888
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,360
Well, our, the soft diplomacy
is a very important part

889
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:13,440
of our world role.

890
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,760
And the Queen was part
of the soft diplomacy, as well.

891
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,120
Yes, she was. Very much so.
You want to say something.

892
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,440
It was really to go back
to Adjoa's point,

893
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,880
because I do think that,
as it were, the passions

894
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,720
that King Charles had
as Prince of Wales,

895
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,440
if you think about issues
around young people,

896
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:33,120
concerns about inequality,

897
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:34,880
concerns about education.

898
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:40,080
He came to my college in May to talk
to young people about not just

899
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:45,280
getting into Oxford, but what was
it like once they had got there,

900
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,200
because they came from these
backgrounds where traditionally

901
00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:51,320
those young people had NOT
gone to Oxford.

902
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,160
He was very, very interested in,

903
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,400
what with the things that were
holding them back?

904
00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:01,080
What did they think their employment
opportunities were going to be

905
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:03,400
as a result of coming to Oxford,

906
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,960
but, as a result of also having
these backgrounds which were

907
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:12,160
very different to people who had
traditionally gone to Oxford.

908
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:16,720
So all of this, I think, has
the possibility of feeding through

909
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,400
into what comes next.

910
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,200
It's fine to talk about an
Elizabethan age, but a lot of people

911
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:24,080
won't feel they're in one.
At all.

912
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:26,600
People will be struggling to pay
their energy bills this month,

913
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,120
and so on. Well, absolutely.

914
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,160
I mean, it's had its failures
as well as its successes.

915
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,200
I don't think that it's there
to do all that stuff.

916
00:49:36,240 --> 00:49:39,120
That's what governments are for.

917
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:43,680
I think, as I was saying, what the
Queen did with her Queen's speech

918
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:48,800
was sort of pull people in
and put a bit of an arm around them,

919
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:51,960
and acknowledge people's situations.

920
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,360
That is what people want a lot
of the time, and there is something

921
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:56,000
about the long-term vision.

922
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,560
We have governments that
go from election to election,

923
00:49:58,600 --> 00:49:59,840
everything is short term.

924
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:02,720
There was something
long-term about her vision,

925
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,640
and hopefully with King Charles's
it will be the same,

926
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,840
that people need a sort of spiritual
sense to keep them going.

927
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,040
The pragmatism of how I'm going
to keep the electricity on,

928
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:15,920
that's is what we elect our
politicians to deal with.

929
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:16,960
Quite right.

930
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,080
If there is a case for monarchism
in the modern world

931
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,840
it is that long-termism,
it is that the new King

932
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:27,280
is thinking 100 or 200 years ahead,

933
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,920
about the condition of the
countryside and about the planet,

934
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,280
and biodiversity and all of that,
in a way that elected politicians

935
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:36,440
frankly can't be bothered to,

936
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:38,840
because they have an election coming
up before too long,

937
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:40,240
and that's what they're focusing on,

938
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:44,400
so it may be that it puts into the
system a kind of long-termism that

939
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,360
wouldn't be there in
an orthodox, elected system,

940
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:49,480
in a presidency.

941
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,800
People talk about the good things
that happened in the second

942
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,200
Elizabethan age, under the Queen,

943
00:50:56,240 --> 00:50:59,960
but is there anything good
that happened during her reign

944
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,720
which is now
in jeopardy now that she's gone?

945
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:03,760
Are we at risk?

946
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,680
I think it's too soon to tell.

947
00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:12,520
I do think that our role
in the world as Britain,

948
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:17,720
and some of those watching this
programme would have seen

949
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:21,520
the reports over the last 24 hours
in terms of what has happened

950
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:27,920
to our currency,
what has happened to our economy,

951
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:33,560
we are at a moment, globally, given
what is happening with energy,

952
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,320
given what is happening with
living standards and so on

953
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,040
where we are going to have
to really grasp this

954
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,680
and show real leadership
as a country,

955
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:47,400
but coming back to the point
that Adjoa made,

956
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,120
this is about that government

957
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,080
and what you want from
your constitutional monarch

958
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:57,280
is a degree, a sense of stability,
and a sense of continuity.

959
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,120
Which is what the Queen did
admirably.

960
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:01,760
And she did very well.

961
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,200
I would agree.
We are at a stage,

962
00:52:03,240 --> 00:52:06,560
all of our Western societies,
for reasons that we understand well,

963
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,440
are under huge pressure,

964
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,640
and some will buckle and splinter,
and some will not, and the question

965
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:16,480
is, does monarchy help keep us
together in a way that is healthy?

966
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:20,440
Again, I think it is
too early to say about the new King.

967
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:22,040
He has started quite well,

968
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,920
but he really had to think very
hard about the role of the monarchy

969
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,280
and what it brings, because in
the end, I don't think anybody

970
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,440
around the table, anybody listening
to this programme, perhaps, really

971
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:39,120
defends or accepts the idea of the
theory of monarchy, the idea that

972
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:43,760
there is one God-given bloodline
that rules over the rest of us, and

973
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,640
therefore, to make monarchy work it
has to be pragmatic, and it has to

974
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,400
think constantly about the condition
of the people question, if you like.

975
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:55,360
And so all of those things that
Charles has been involved in

976
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,760
in the past, with the youth
work, is incredibly important.

977
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,960
I thought the fact that
Prince William was out

978
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,840
selling The Big Issue
recently was a good sign.

979
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,400
We need to see more of that,
we need to have a sense that

980
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:10,080
right at the top of the country,
right at the apex of the state

981
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,120
and society there are people
looking out for everyone.

982
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:17,160
We're going to talk more about this
in the third part of the programme.

983
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,800
But is the Queen's legacy that,

984
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:25,000
at least for the foreseeable future,
we remain a constitutional monarchy?

985
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:28,280
I think so, yes.

986
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:32,280
I think that continuity
and that sense of that soft,

987
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:37,160
overarching perspective
is going to continue.

988
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:41,080
I mean, all of it is an accident of
birth, whether you are born into

989
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,040
a family where you think you are
going to be the niece of the King

990
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,240
and now you
are suddenly going to be the Queen,

991
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:51,560
or you are born of West African
and British parents like me

992
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:55,240
and grew up in the Cotswolds,
it is all an accident of birth,

993
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:59,080
and it's having that
sense that we are all part of that

994
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:03,040
accident, and how we take care of
each other within the frame of that

995
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,640
understanding, that's what I hope
from this constitutional monarchy.

996
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:08,800
Was it an accident that
you are on here tonight?

997
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,320
No, it was carefully planned,
and I think the plan's worked.

998
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:13,720
In the final part of the programme,

999
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,040
we'll be asking what the
Queen's death will mean

1000
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:19,640
for the future of Britain,
the Union and the Commonwealth.

1001
00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:37,600
These 25 years have seen
much change for Britain.

1002
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,760
No longer an imperial power,

1003
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:45,720
we have been coming to terms with
what this means for ourselves

1004
00:54:45,760 --> 00:54:49,240
and for our relations with
the rest of the world.

1005
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:50,800
The problems of progress,

1006
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,800
the complexities
of modern administration,

1007
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:58,680
have helped to revive
an awareness of historic national

1008
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:04,800
identities in these islands, but
I cannot forget that I was crowned

1009
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,800
Queen of the United Kingdom of
Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

1010
00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:20,720
Perhaps this Jubilee is a time to
remind ourselves of the benefits

1011
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:25,600
that union has conferred,
at home and in our international

1012
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:31,080
dealings, on the inhabitants of
all parts of this United Kingdom.

1013
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:37,480
That was the Queen making another
extraordinary speech in 1977 -

1014
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,000
the year of her Silver Jubilee.

1015
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,000
So if she was, indeed,
the glue that held

1016
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:46,000
so much of what we know together,
will Britain, the Union

1017
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:48,800
and the Commonwealth
now come unstuck?

1018
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,440
I'm joined for the final part of
the programme by Ruth Davidson,

1019
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:53,640
the former leader
of the Scottish Conservatives,

1020
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,280
Canadian High Commissioner
Ralph Goodale,

1021
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:58,560
social commentator Patrick Vernon,

1022
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,680
and the journalist -
and republican - Polly Toynbee.

1023
00:56:01,720 --> 00:56:02,880
Welcome to you all.

1024
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:06,160
Ruth Davidson,
the Queen embodied the union.

1025
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,040
Now that she's gone,
is the union now in more danger?

1026
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,040
Well, I think there's been quite
an interesting thing that's happened

1027
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,160
in the last week. There's been a lot
of London-based commentators,

1028
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:18,160
even some of them Scottish,
if I may say, Andrew,

1029
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,320
who have been quick to write
that story, that this

1030
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:23,840
is an aspect we need to look at,

1031
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,360
and people in Scotland haven't
wanted to talk about this.

1032
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,000
They've not wanted
to claim this for either side.

1033
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,520
And to be honest there have been
a lot of people that have been

1034
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,760
a bit narked by columnists and
journalists sticking microphones

1035
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,800
under people's noses in Scotland
to ask them this, because we want

1036
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:43,840
the same space and time to look
at what has happened, to process it,

1037
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,560
to grieve in some cases,
to pay tribute in others,

1038
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,640
as everybody else
in the United Kingdom,

1039
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,480
and actually neither
side in the constitutional debate

1040
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,000
in Scotland and people that have
lived this debate since 2011

1041
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,280
want to start making
political points on this.

1042
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:02,840
We just want to give of our best
to a great lady who's gone.

1043
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,720
But is the union
in more danger or not?

1044
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,880
Again, this is not, there is a time
and a place

1045
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:10,960
to have a conversation
all about this.

1046
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:12,880
She's not in the ground yet,
Andrew.

1047
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,040
This is not the time.
It's not the place.

1048
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:16,080
Polly Toynbee?

1049
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,080
I think
the union is under great threat.

1050
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:23,240
I think she was some of the glue
that held it together,

1051
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:26,520
simply the weight of history,
that most people alive can only

1052
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:30,880
remember her, and she did bind the
United Kingdom and Northern Ireland

1053
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:36,440
together, so I think it is a moment
of extra danger, but the real danger

1054
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:42,320
to the union has been the difference
of opinion between Conservatives

1055
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:46,920
in London and non-Conservatives
for 55 years in Scotland,

1056
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:51,720
and in Brexit, where neither
Northern Ireland nor Scotland

1057
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:55,600
voted for Brexit, and the referendum
happened in such a way that it

1058
00:57:55,640 --> 00:58:00,800
didn't require their permission,
as well, which is a grave affront.

1059
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:04,880
So I think all these things
come together to make a crack

1060
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:09,240
that I deeply regret, you know,
and I hope it doesn't happen.

1061
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,680
But I think it is very
perilous indeed.

1062
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,880
But I would say, if I might, Polly,
that people said first of all

1063
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,960
that Brexit would be the thing
that would encourage a great

1064
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:21,960
spike in independence support
in Scotland, and it didn't, or that

1065
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,200
Boris becoming Prime Minister would
have a great spike, and it didn't.

1066
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:28,520
And you can look at the polls
since the referendum in 2014,

1067
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,960
and all of these, and even just
the passage of time because of

1068
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,360
the demographics, if you voted
on both sides,

1069
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:37,240
and again, that's proven
not to be the case.

1070
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,720
The travelling of the cortege
from Balmoral, to Aberdeen,

1071
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:47,600
and then south to Dundee,
and then across the Firth of Forth,

1072
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,160
into Edinburgh itself,

1073
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,880
therefore taking it through some
stunning parts of Scotland,

1074
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,440
with wonderful
pictures, as we can see there.

1075
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:58,960
There was, Patrick Vernon,

1076
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,080
a certain unionist
symbolism in these pictures.

1077
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:08,280
The Queen had died in Scotland
and that the Scottish people,

1078
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,200
who she felt
very strongly about, were getting

1079
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,800
their chance to grieve, which would
not have happened if she had died

1080
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:19,760
in Windsor or Buckingham Palace?
It was fortuitous for the union.

1081
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:24,320
It could be. But I think
the point is, what happens after,

1082
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:25,680
when she's buried?

1083
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,200
There's going to
be lots of conversations

1084
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,960
in England,
in Scotland, don't forget Wales.

1085
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:36,120
There will be lots of conversations
about the future of relationships.

1086
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,560
And I think the King,
there will be reflection about

1087
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:44,120
the King's role in all of that,
and particularly the Commonwealth.

1088
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:48,520
Already, you can see clear evidence,
and signs that the Commonwealth...

1089
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:49,880
I will come on to the Commonwealth,

1090
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:51,520
let's start with the union
to begin with.

1091
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,560
Start parochially then
we'll move out globally.

1092
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:55,840
That's where the focus goes.

1093
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,760
But I mean, there are always
conversations about the union.

1094
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:01,800
Well, it's always been that.

1095
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,800
It's like a love-hate relationship,
isn't it?

1096
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:07,560
The question is,
in terms of the union,

1097
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,320
there are certain aspects of the
union, and I think the interesting

1098
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:13,080
thing about what will happen next,
particularly in Scotland, will

1099
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:19,280
Nicola Sturgeon still push hard for
independence, or will she listen to,

1100
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:21,360
you know, maybe people
are now reflecting,

1101
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:23,040
maybe we should see what happens.

1102
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:27,000
But does the departure of the Queen
make a difference?

1103
01:00:27,040 --> 01:00:28,960
That's the issue tonight,

1104
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,920
not the rights
and wrongs of Scottish independence,

1105
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:33,880
but the departure of The Queen.

1106
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:38,080
Does that change
the atmosphere in which the debates

1107
01:00:38,120 --> 01:00:40,200
that you are talking about,
will take place?

1108
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,800
I think we all recognise, because
of the way she reigned for

1109
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,960
a long time, 70 years, she dealt
with 15 prime ministers, a whole

1110
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:53,360
range of people, north and south of
the border, and so she was the glue.

1111
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:55,840
And that creates uncertainty.

1112
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:58,840
And the question is, when you have
a gap or uncertainty,

1113
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,200
what fills that void?
That's the big question.

1114
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:07,680
She was the glue, and things can
become a bit unstuck, but that's

1115
01:01:07,720 --> 01:01:12,240
different, getting a bit unstuck,
you can put things together again.

1116
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:14,240
That's different from a fissure.

1117
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:18,320
That's different from something
being cut down the middle.

1118
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:22,880
Then it begs the question,
will Charles be that glue again,

1119
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:25,320
or other members
of the royal family?

1120
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:27,360
And that's a question
we'll have to see in polls

1121
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:28,640
over the next coming months.

1122
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,160
I mean, I think the case
for the United Kingdom,

1123
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:33,360
I don't particularly like calling
the union the union -

1124
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:34,720
we are a country,

1125
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,120
United Kingdom of Great Britain
and Northern Ireland,

1126
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:39,920
it needs to be made again and again
and remade for every generation.

1127
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,040
I absolutely accept that.

1128
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,760
But I don't think, you know,
from being actively

1129
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,680
and acutely involved in 2014,

1130
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:53,320
I'm not entirely sure that
The Queen was necessarily

1131
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:57,240
one of the big
issues that was discussed then.

1132
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:01,040
It was the SNP's position to keep
the constitutional monarch

1133
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:02,280
in an independent Scotland.

1134
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:05,280
It continues to be
their stated position.

1135
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,280
As a political party.
And a referendum?

1136
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:10,760
Well, let's see what the Supreme
Court says about that!

1137
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,600
No, what I mean is, if they were to
win an independence referendum,

1138
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,240
would they not at some
stage have a referendum

1139
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:20,640
on whether an independent Scotland
should then become a republic?

1140
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,200
My understanding is, certainly
going into the 2014 election,

1141
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:28,080
if that was a position,
it was wheeched right offstage.

1142
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:32,960
The position of The Queen was
not in jeopardy at the time.

1143
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,200
You know, you saw
hundreds of thousands of Scots,

1144
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,160
people on both sides of the
constitutional argument were there.

1145
01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:42,320
It's not a black and white unionist
and royalist, monarchist issue.

1146
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:44,280
I want to move on to the
Commonwealth, but Polly,

1147
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:45,840
a final word on
the state of the union?

1148
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,880
We know very little about the
Queen's view on anything at all,

1149
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:53,440
but she did "purr," it was said,
when she heard the result...

1150
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:56,360
That was David Cameron who
said that. David Cameron.

1151
01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:00,760
But, more than that, we've seen
the speech from 1977, on the record.

1152
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,320
I mean, she did
say she had been crowned

1153
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:07,000
Queen of the United Kingdom -
that wasn't just passing the time.

1154
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,840
Yes. And she clearly has
a deep love of Scotland.

1155
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:14,560
The place where she was happiest.
She's more Scottish than English.

1156
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,640
More Scottish than English,
a bit German!

1157
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,840
More German than English, as well!

1158
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,040
Let me come onto the
High Commissioner, Ralph Goodale.

1159
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:28,240
The Queen was pivotal
in the creation of the Commonwealth,

1160
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,760
and, at times,
in keeping it together. Mm-hm.

1161
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,480
Is the Commonwealth diminished
by her death?

1162
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:41,880
Oh, you lose a personality
of that magnitude,

1163
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:46,680
70 years of incomparable depth
and experience,

1164
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:52,280
obviously we are all
diminished in her absence now.

1165
01:03:52,320 --> 01:03:57,680
She was such a grand person
in so many ways.

1166
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:59,640
We are showing pictures,
High Commissioner,

1167
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:00,800
of the Queen in Canada now.

1168
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,760
Yes, I recognise some of those.
I thought you might!

1169
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:08,640
When you think of the Commonwealth,

1170
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:12,840
that started back in her early
days, the eight or ten countries,

1171
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:18,120
and now 56, it's one of those
few international organisations

1172
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,520
that's actually growing.

1173
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:27,320
More countries are joining it
than are contemplating leaving it.

1174
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:32,040
It's now 56.
Two more in the last year.

1175
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:37,560
She nurtured all of that
over a very long period of time.

1176
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:39,160
And think of what it is.

1177
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:44,280
56 countries, every continent
in the world except Antarctica.

1178
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:47,600
One-third of
the world's population.

1179
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,240
Countries that are big and small,
rich and poor,

1180
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,360
north, south, east and west.

1181
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,800
It has such enormous diversity.

1182
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:59,240
You can't think of
a forum similar to it.

1183
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:03,520
And if you tried to create it today,
you couldn't.

1184
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,360
It's an accident of history.

1185
01:05:06,400 --> 01:05:09,080
Which the Queen played
a role in constructing.

1186
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:11,040
She played a great role.

1187
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,040
But I think she would be
the first today to say,

1188
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:18,160
well, the monarchy has assisted
and supported and contributed to

1189
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:23,400
the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth
is not dependent on the monarchy.

1190
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:27,440
The new King, Charles,
will have to determine

1191
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:32,840
the kind of role that he will play
in relation to the Commonwealth.

1192
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,320
But what will determine
the future of the Commonwealth

1193
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:38,560
is the Commonwealth itself.

1194
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:44,040
Does it have strong administration
and leadership and organisation?

1195
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,760
Is it transparent and accountable?

1196
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,400
Does it have a clear
set of priorities...

1197
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,160
And purpose.
..and focus that are relevant?

1198
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:56,160
It shouldn't try to be like every
other international organisation

1199
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:58,680
and mimic what they do.

1200
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:03,000
It should decide what it does better
than other organisations

1201
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:08,320
and focus on those priorities,
and it will survive.

1202
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,640
Patrick, you
mention the Commonwealth earlier.

1203
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:12,840
I said we would come to it.
So I'll come back to you.

1204
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:14,440
What did you want to say?

1205
01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:15,920
The Commonwealth is not

1206
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:20,120
really an act of history,
it was part of Empire.

1207
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:25,720
So, the fact we have just quoted,
that the colonisation of the Empire,

1208
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:28,800
that Britain, in inverted commas,
"ruled the waves,"

1209
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:33,440
and obviously that transition
from countries, starting firstly

1210
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:38,240
with India, Pakistan,
then leading to Ghana in 1957,

1211
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,600
and bit by bit, countries said,
we want our independence.

1212
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:45,960
So you have this kind of umbilical
cord between the Commonwealth

1213
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:49,240
and the Royals, particularly
The Queen, and the royal family.

1214
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:53,840
Growing up in the Midlands,
you know,

1215
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:55,480
any West Indian household,

1216
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:57,440
they had a picture of the Queen,

1217
01:06:57,480 --> 01:07:00,920
Jesus
and the West Indian cricket team.

1218
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,680
And bit by bit,
the front room is changing.

1219
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:05,360
And that reflects where we are now.

1220
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:10,200
Because what we have now is
a situation where, bit by bit,

1221
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:12,920
even though other countries
have joined the Commonwealth,

1222
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,840
and interestingly countries that
have joined the Commonwealth have

1223
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,720
not had that colonial history with
Britain, which is interesting,

1224
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:24,040
but it's countries who now say
we want to be fully independent.

1225
01:07:24,080 --> 01:07:27,000
What was interesting, Prince Charles
went to Barbados last year.

1226
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,720
He was there
when Barbados became a republic.

1227
01:07:30,760 --> 01:07:32,000
And I think that's the future.

1228
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:33,840
Jamaica has already made
an announcement

1229
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:38,240
that they want to be a republic.
You know what is going to happen.

1230
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:42,040
One of the key issues around the
Commonwealth is that relationship.

1231
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,000
The Commonwealth will
always be there.

1232
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,800
The difference will be countries
will have their own

1233
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:50,520
independent sovereign state within
the Commonwealth, as republics.

1234
01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:51,760
That's going to happen.

1235
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:54,000
Would it be a very good idea
if the British monarch

1236
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:56,920
was no longer the head of the
Commonwealth? Why should it be?

1237
01:07:56,960 --> 01:08:00,840
Wouldn't that make quite a break
with those old colonial roots

1238
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:02,760
that caused so much of the tension?

1239
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:04,960
Wouldn't it be much better
if they had what's called

1240
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,720
an election to
decide who the leader is?

1241
01:08:07,760 --> 01:08:09,400
Prince Charles WAS chosen.

1242
01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:11,920
It's interesting - relatively
and actually, he was chosen

1243
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,200
by Commonwealth leaders and
the High Commissioner.

1244
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:16,120
We had to decide
upon that in Cabinet,

1245
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,560
a cabinet decision of the government
of Canada. Not forced on us.

1246
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:21,560
I think an unwise decision...
That's a different matter.

1247
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:23,600
It might have been a better
gesture for the Commonwealth.

1248
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,080
It might have been a better gesture
for the Commonwealth.

1249
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:28,360
It may be unwise, but he didn't
inherit the position!

1250
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:30,320
That's very true.
But he wouldn't be there

1251
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:32,280
if he hadn't inherited it,
you see what I mean.

1252
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:34,720
But what was interesting, I think,
if you read the media,

1253
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,800
I didn't realise that each
Commonwealth country have to

1254
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:43,240
say yes or no, almost like a mini,
in-or-out type option, maybe.

1255
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:45,160
But what was interesting
four years ago,

1256
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,200
when it happened, it was at the same
time as the Windrush scandal.

1257
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:50,480
And so the Commonwealth's
heads met in London.

1258
01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:52,720
It was at the height
of the Windrush scandal.

1259
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,520
I was quite involved with that,
with a whole range of people.

1260
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:58,040
And I had this kind of vision
that maybe The Queen said

1261
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:00,200
to Theresa May,
you'd better sort this out

1262
01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:02,320
because Charles
is going to be anointed,

1263
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:06,720
and, you know, "Don't rain on
my parade," maybe - who knows?

1264
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,960
Well, we never know what the Queen
would actually say on that.

1265
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,760
Hold that thought, though,
because I wanted,

1266
01:09:12,800 --> 01:09:16,000
Prince William, when he was
in the Bahamas this year,

1267
01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:20,400
he had something to say, which
I think will inform our discussion.

1268
01:09:20,440 --> 01:09:22,720
Let's hear Prince William.

1269
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:25,920
Next year, I know you
are all looking forward

1270
01:09:25,960 --> 01:09:29,520
to celebrating 50 years
of independence.

1271
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:32,640
Your golden anniversary.

1272
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:37,280
And with Jamaica celebrating 60
years of independence this year,

1273
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:41,120
and Belize celebrating 40 years
of independence last year,

1274
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:42,560
I want to say this.

1275
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:49,480
We support with pride and respect
your decisions about your future.

1276
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,320
Relationships evolve,
friendship endures.

1277
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,160
Polly Toynbee, what do you make of
that remark?

1278
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:03,800
No senior Royal has said anything
like that before, I don't think.

1279
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:08,160
I think it's essential that
the monarchy, to survive itself,

1280
01:10:08,200 --> 01:10:12,840
it has to look as if it is in favour
of democratic choices everywhere.

1281
01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:15,080
I mean, the fact that it is not
democratic itself

1282
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:17,400
is quite important.

1283
01:10:17,440 --> 01:10:20,680
So they have to be very generous,
I think, in that way.

1284
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:24,640
Is the Commonwealth, Ruth Davidson,
in more difficulty without

1285
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:29,000
the Queen, or will King Charles,
who, as I understand it,

1286
01:10:29,040 --> 01:10:32,480
is a very strongly
pro- the Commonwealth himself,

1287
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:34,680
will he step up to the crease?

1288
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,600
This is one of the ones where King
Charles is going to have to

1289
01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:40,560
make sure the Commonwealth is
given his attention, that he

1290
01:10:40,600 --> 01:10:43,840
puts in the time, the effort,
that he shows he wanted to continue,

1291
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:48,840
that he's willing to work
hard for it and in its service.

1292
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:51,840
But I think what is also interesting
is the point that Ralph made

1293
01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:54,320
about the fluidity
of the Commonwealth down the years.

1294
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:56,760
It is not fixed, it's not
served in aspic.

1295
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:58,480
And it comes to something that
Andrew Marr said in

1296
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,480
the last section of this programme,

1297
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:05,520
about, in terms of the principle
of monarchy is,

1298
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,280
if you
think about it in its purest form,

1299
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:09,720
on paper, it doesn't really work.

1300
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:12,000
People don't really believe
that these people are descendants,

1301
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:13,120
you know, God's chosen people.

1302
01:11:13,160 --> 01:11:15,080
You wouldn't invent it now,
is what you're saying.

1303
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:16,960
Well, exactly, but there's
a pragmatism to it.

1304
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:18,640
And actually if you look
at somebody like

1305
01:11:18,680 --> 01:11:22,280
the former Australian
Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull,

1306
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:24,880
who led
the republican movement in 1999,

1307
01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:30,080
the last time there was a big push
to not have the Queen

1308
01:11:30,120 --> 01:11:34,160
as head of state there, and his
reaction to the death of Elizabeth,

1309
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:36,400
it was one of the most touching
things I've seen

1310
01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:37,440
in the last few days.

1311
01:11:37,480 --> 01:11:39,840
He was so moved,
moved to tears on television,

1312
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:41,720
and talking about what
a great lady she is.

1313
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,640
And I think this again comes back
to this idea of,

1314
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:48,040
you might not like, necessarily,
the ideal of it,

1315
01:11:48,080 --> 01:11:49,520
but for some reason it works

1316
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:51,320
and there's some kind
of magic involved there.

1317
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:54,000
And what would you replace it with?
And once people start thinking...

1318
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:55,320
That's the critical question.

1319
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:57,640
Once people start
thinking about what the options are,

1320
01:11:57,680 --> 01:12:00,200
to throw it out, and what does
it get replaced with,

1321
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,600
then you don't have the same
number of people agreeing.

1322
01:12:02,640 --> 01:12:04,800
We have very good options.

1323
01:12:04,840 --> 01:12:09,080
But the reason Malcolm Turnbull
lost in Australia in 1999

1324
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:11,640
was because people
didn't like the alternatives.

1325
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:17,400
It wasn't that there was, you know
a wellspring of support

1326
01:12:17,440 --> 01:12:20,320
for the monarchy, so much as,

1327
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:23,320
"Nah, we don't really want
that kind of politician."

1328
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:27,120
Not the least worst option, but that
idea of what do you replace it with,

1329
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:28,640
becomes a contested space.

1330
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:33,280
It has been said, Ralph,
that with the Queen passing,

1331
01:12:33,320 --> 01:12:37,960
that, in those Commonwealth
countries where the monarch

1332
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:39,240
here is still the head of state,

1333
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:43,440
there will be more
republican movements.

1334
01:12:43,480 --> 01:12:45,320
But so far, and of course
it's very early days,

1335
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:48,120
Australia and New Zealand
don't seem to be rushing

1336
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:51,080
to embrace republicanism.
What about Canada?

1337
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:56,240
Obviously when there is
a change of this magnitude,

1338
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:57,880
first time in 70 years,

1339
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:01,640
there will be people reflecting
on that question.

1340
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:05,040
It's logical to come up.

1341
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:09,160
But I just know that our major
newspaper in Canada today

1342
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,200
wrote an editorial,
very strongly against the idea

1343
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,360
for a number of
very practical reasons.

1344
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:18,040
Against the idea of removing
the head of state?

1345
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:21,720
Yes, and the arguments were
interesting, all very practical.

1346
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:25,160
First of all, it would
involve a constitutional debate that

1347
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:29,440
would probably last a decade, and be
rather debilitating in the process.

1348
01:13:29,480 --> 01:13:32,480
We in Canada have gone through
those constitutional debates

1349
01:13:32,520 --> 01:13:35,440
in the past... With Quebec.
and they're not very pleasant.

1350
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,760
Thirdly, a lot of
other things will get

1351
01:13:38,800 --> 01:13:41,360
pushed off the public
agenda while governments

1352
01:13:41,400 --> 01:13:45,280
are focused on this issue,
and the third one is,

1353
01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:49,680
can you assure us that the
alternative will be better?

1354
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:52,880
Not just hypothetically,
but practically better.

1355
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:55,960
And I guess the bottom line
of that, if it ain't broke,

1356
01:13:56,000 --> 01:13:57,600
don't fix it.

1357
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:03,360
It has provided remarkable
stability, continuity,

1358
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:05,640
over a long period of time.

1359
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:09,000
Various controversies
have been dealt with successfully.

1360
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:11,640
It makes you different from America.

1361
01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:13,600
Exactly the point!

1362
01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,680
Is that an alternative
that one would

1363
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:20,360
necessarily want to
emulate right now?

1364
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:24,840
Most countries that are members
of the Commonwealth do not have the

1365
01:14:24,880 --> 01:14:27,200
British monarch as
their head of state.

1366
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:28,920
That is an important point.

1367
01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:33,200
56 members of the Commonwealth,
I think it is down to 15 who had the

1368
01:14:33,240 --> 01:14:36,120
Queen and now have
King Charles as head of state.

1369
01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:39,160
That may be less in the years to
come.

1370
01:14:39,200 --> 01:14:42,880
Is it important that the
Commonwealth continues?

1371
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:44,840
Let me ask Patrick here.

1372
01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:46,800
I think the Commonwealth
will continue.

1373
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:48,560
But it is important?

1374
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:51,160
Interesting because if you
break down the word Commonwealth,

1375
01:14:51,200 --> 01:14:54,120
people say where is the commonality?

1376
01:14:54,160 --> 01:14:58,080
If you go round the 56 countries of
the Commonwealth,

1377
01:14:58,120 --> 01:15:01,200
they all have different economic,
social, political challenges.

1378
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:04,440
One of the big challenges
which King Charles will face

1379
01:15:04,480 --> 01:15:06,200
and has faced already is the big

1380
01:15:06,240 --> 01:15:08,520
issue of reparations and the

1381
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:14,160
history of Britain's past
empire enslavement.

1382
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:15,600
That is not going to go away.

1383
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,360
The genie is out of the bottle,
and for a number of those

1384
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:22,160
countries in the Commonwealth, they
will keep raising those concerns.

1385
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:27,000
Caricom, the 14 English-speaking
countries part of the Commonwealth

1386
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,880
will raise issues...
In the Caribbean.

1387
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:31,440
In the Caribbean.

1388
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:34,280
Then you have other parts
of the Commonwealth saying...

1389
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:38,000
My question was whether it
was important or not

1390
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:40,320
that the Commonwealth continue.

1391
01:15:40,360 --> 01:15:43,120
You raised an issue.

1392
01:15:43,160 --> 01:15:46,200
Is that issue better
resolved with the continuing

1393
01:15:46,240 --> 01:15:50,000
Commonwealth, with King Charles
doing his bit to keep the show on

1394
01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:52,880
the road, or doesn't it matter?

1395
01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:55,160
I think when it comes
to particular issues

1396
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:57,240
around enslavement, it is

1397
01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:02,000
about how the King,
with the British government,

1398
01:16:02,040 --> 01:16:04,800
have those conversations with those
relevant Commonwealth

1399
01:16:04,840 --> 01:16:08,040
countries, because not all
of the Commonwealth is raising these

1400
01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:10,720
issues, it is only
particular countries,

1401
01:16:10,760 --> 01:16:13,960
and a lawsuit...a letter was sent to

1402
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:17,880
all the European powers saying,
we want to deal with this,

1403
01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:20,520
it wasn't taken seriously
by the British Government at all,

1404
01:16:20,560 --> 01:16:24,080
and I think that issue is going to
be there and will

1405
01:16:24,120 --> 01:16:25,560
come back time and time again.

1406
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:27,320
Let me try one more time.

1407
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:30,280
Is it easier to deal
with this issue if you come

1408
01:16:30,320 --> 01:16:33,960
back to it with the Commonwealth
as one of the institutions to do it,

1409
01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:35,880
or does it make no difference?

1410
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:38,520
Ultimately it is the British
Government, so it is not so much

1411
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:41,240
about the Commonwealth,
because all Commonwealth countries

1412
01:16:41,280 --> 01:16:44,120
will have their own
issues around historical injustice.

1413
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:47,640
Ultimately it's down to the King
with the British Government.

1414
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,960
You have met King Charles.

1415
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:55,040
Is he committed to the
Commonwealth, do you believe?

1416
01:16:55,080 --> 01:17:00,720
I believe so from everything I have
seen from him, that the commitment

1417
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:05,640
is very real, and I think he
understands the points that you were

1418
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:10,360
making, that he has got
to pay attention to this.

1419
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:15,360
The monarchy has evolved,
the Commonwealth has evolved,

1420
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:18,600
the individual countries
within the Commonwealth have

1421
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,520
evolved, and you have
got to keep moving

1422
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:27,480
with the times to show the kind of
flexibility there in that clip

1423
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:29,800
from Prince William, but you think

1424
01:17:29,840 --> 01:17:35,080
if the Commonwealth is properly
administered, if it has got that

1425
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:38,640
transparency and accountability,
if it has got a credible set of

1426
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:43,760
priorities, it can be an absolutely
unique convening power in the world

1427
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:47,440
because of or almost
in spite of that vast

1428
01:17:47,480 --> 01:17:50,840
diversity that is included
within the Commonwealth,

1429
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:55,280
and it is well placed to focus
on some really important issues

1430
01:17:55,320 --> 01:17:58,440
of good governance in those 56
countries.

1431
01:17:58,480 --> 01:18:01,680
Human rights, including
gender equality and the

1432
01:18:01,720 --> 01:18:04,640
rights of LGBTQ persons.

1433
01:18:04,680 --> 01:18:10,480
Education as a powerful
liberator of human potential.

1434
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:13,440
Preparing for the next pandemic,
and there is going to be one,

1435
01:18:13,480 --> 01:18:17,360
and the Commonwealth should be
ahead of that curve, and dealing

1436
01:18:17,400 --> 01:18:19,520
with the problems of climate change.

1437
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:23,200
Those are things that
the Commonwealth can do particularly

1438
01:18:23,240 --> 01:18:25,160
well if it sets its mind to it.
Thank you for that.

1439
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,560
We are in the last few
minutes of the programme.

1440
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:29,120
Let's come back to Polly.

1441
01:18:29,160 --> 01:18:34,120
As long as the Queen
was on the throne, republicanism was

1442
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:36,440
to some extent put on hold.

1443
01:18:36,480 --> 01:18:39,840
Will it now have
a new lease of life?

1444
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:43,240
Some of us hoped that
she would be gracefully

1445
01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:45,000
and quietly Elizabeth the Last,

1446
01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:46,840
but it hasn't happened.

1447
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:50,120
Without anybody being
asked, the moment

1448
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:52,840
the last breath leaves the
Queen's body,

1449
01:18:52,880 --> 01:18:55,440
we have a new King
without anybody being asked if

1450
01:18:55,480 --> 01:18:57,200
that's what they want.

1451
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:59,320
And the chances are most people do.

1452
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:04,040
The popularity of the monarchy has
fallen from 75% to 60%.

1453
01:19:04,080 --> 01:19:07,360
There are a quarter
of people who would like to

1454
01:19:07,400 --> 01:19:10,880
do away with it, and increasingly
the young, who say they don't think

1455
01:19:10,920 --> 01:19:13,320
it will still be there,
the majority of them don't think it

1456
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:15,360
will still be there in 25 years.

1457
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,240
So you think the Republican
movement has a new head

1458
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:20,640
of steam behind it?

1459
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:22,840
This is not particularly...

1460
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:26,280
I understand not at this
moment, we are still in

1461
01:19:26,320 --> 01:19:30,440
mourning for Queen Elizabeth,
but as we move into the age of King

1462
01:19:30,480 --> 01:19:34,600
Charles, does republicanism
get a second wind?

1463
01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:38,280
I think it does, I think
people are less personally attached.

1464
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:41,560
The Queen did represent
all of our lives for 70 years,

1465
01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:44,240
and people reflected their
own personal families

1466
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:48,000
against the story of the
monarch's family.

1467
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:50,640
It was deeply embedded,
and I think it just won't

1468
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:52,160
be so quite in the same way.

1469
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:55,000
I don't think we are
instantly going for a republic,

1470
01:19:55,040 --> 01:20:00,240
but the question why we
need good governance is because we

1471
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:03,120
don't have a president
to protect the constitution.

1472
01:20:03,160 --> 01:20:06,000
We have just had a rogue
Prime Minister who prorogued

1473
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:08,600
Parliament, who broke
international law...

1474
01:20:08,640 --> 01:20:13,600
I understand, and we can talk
about that on another programme

1475
01:20:13,640 --> 01:20:15,560
which is more about party politics.

1476
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:19,720
Ruth Davidson, what do you think?

1477
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:23,680
I think that this queen was unique
because of the longevity of her

1478
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:27,800
reign, because of being part of that
post-war generation, and I think

1479
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:33,040
that you could see that, right now,
Russia, a global superpower is being

1480
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:35,720
beaten back in Ukraine,
yet is what is leading the news

1481
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:38,520
in countries around the world
is the death of the Queen.

1482
01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:41,760
I don't think when this happens
with King Charles, we will

1483
01:20:41,800 --> 01:20:45,200
see that same change,
she is an absolute unique figure.

1484
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:48,240
But the idea that means
there will suddenly be a hotbed of

1485
01:20:48,280 --> 01:20:51,360
republicanism in this
country, I'm not sure...

1486
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:54,680
I'm not talking about a hotbed,
or instantly, I'm just

1487
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,800
saying over time, do
the Republican forces

1488
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:02,000
gather strength again, as
they did in Victorian England?

1489
01:21:02,040 --> 01:21:04,880
I think you have seen
within the history

1490
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,560
of the United Kingdom, and
you can go back as far as you like,

1491
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:09,760
that there are swings of movement,

1492
01:21:09,800 --> 01:21:12,000
in lots of different things,
and it may well be

1493
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:13,760
that in the next 30, 40, 50 years,

1494
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:16,360
there is a swing
towards republicanism and a swing

1495
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:18,360
back, we don't know.

1496
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:20,240
Briefly, High Commissioner?

1497
01:21:20,280 --> 01:21:23,760
In too many countries in this world,
having this conversation

1498
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:25,520
would be illegal.

1499
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:29,880
The fact is, under our
form of democracy, in a

1500
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:34,000
constitutional monarchy,
we are able to have these kinds

1501
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:36,880
of discussions and evolve and grow,
democracy

1502
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:40,160
flourishes, and that
has got to be some kind

1503
01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:43,560
of a compliment about the
kind of system that allows that.

1504
01:21:43,600 --> 01:21:46,440
We have 30 seconds,
I give you the final word.

1505
01:21:46,480 --> 01:21:48,080
Is republicanism coming back?

1506
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:51,160
Republicanism has always been there,
the question is what will happen.

1507
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:54,440
It is all down to King Charles and
his reign,

1508
01:21:54,480 --> 01:21:58,480
and if he can be inclusive, more
engaging and have a new social

1509
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:03,640
contract with the public and
communities, let's see what happens.

1510
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:05,400
Are you hopeful?

1511
01:22:05,440 --> 01:22:07,720
Let's see what happens.
I'm hopeful.

1512
01:22:07,760 --> 01:22:09,200
You're hopeful, Ruth?

1513
01:22:09,240 --> 01:22:11,520
Yes, I think he has
learned from the best.

1514
01:22:11,560 --> 01:22:15,160
And in our country, one
of the things that will be very

1515
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:17,600
important is how he relates
to indigenous

1516
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:20,200
people and the whole
issue of reconciliation

1517
01:22:20,240 --> 01:22:23,160
and healing, that is important
to the future of Canada.

1518
01:22:23,200 --> 01:22:24,920
All right, we will leave it there.

1519
01:22:24,960 --> 01:22:27,400
That is all we have
time for this evening.

1520
01:22:27,440 --> 01:22:29,960
Tomorrow the Queen's coffin
will be flown to London

1521
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:33,520
by the Royal Air Force and taken
to Buckingham Palace.

1522
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:36,920
From Wednesday it will lie in state
in Westminster Hall until her

1523
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:40,560
funeral in Westminster Abbey
next Monday.

1524
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:43,520
You can follow events with our
colleagues on Channel 4 News

1525
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:48,480
throughout the next
historic seven days.

1526
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:53,120
But for now, thank you for
being with us tonight and watching.

1527
01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:54,760
Goodnight.

1528
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:57,800
Subtitles by Red Bee Media