1 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:13,800 The Kings Road in Chelsea. 2 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,680 I mean, it's hard to think of anywhere more quintessentially British. 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,240 In fact, they say it's where Rule Britannia was written, 4 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:22,840 it's where Mary Quant hung out, the Pet Shop Boys met here. 5 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:24,080 It's called the Kings Road 6 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:26,400 because King Charles II wanted a private 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,320 road between his palaces in Whitehall and Hampton Court 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,560 and, as luck would have it, en route, he could just 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,560 turn off into a side road and meet with his mistress, Nell Gwyn. 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:40,160 And it's the side roads where the most exciting stuff happens. 11 00:00:40,160 --> 00:00:43,880 This is where the bohemians hung out, the artists drank 12 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:46,760 and naughty sex happened. 13 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,360 And, although there were many bohemian clubs in Chelsea, there 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:54,240 wasn't a pure lesbian one, like the chic Le Monocle club in Paris. 15 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:57,800 But in 1931, a club called The Gateways opened, 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,520 which was to become the most famous lesbian club in the world. 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:03,000 It was originally a mixed club. 18 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,440 It attracted people from the sexually diverse 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,360 communities of Chelsea, people like Radclyffe Hall and her lover, 20 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,880 Una, Lady Troubridge, who lived only a few streets away 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,160 from The Gateways. Oh, what can I say? 22 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:16,200 She was a lesbian novelist, a poet, 23 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,120 probably best known for her lesbian-themed novel - I think 24 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,840 the rather depressingly titled The Well Of Loneliness. 25 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:24,640 And this was the house that she shared with her long-time companion, 26 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,600 Una, Lady Troubridge, from 1924 to 1928. What a couple! 27 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,480 Can you just imagine some of the scenes here - the salons, 28 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,280 the lunches, the dinner parties? 29 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,280 And then, then they would have dressed up in their suits, 30 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,640 their hats, their monocles - you know, like you do - and hailed 31 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:48,280 a hackney cab to carry them across the borough to The Gateways Club. 32 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,720 Anyway, my own hackney cab awaits to take me 33 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:56,080 back to Gateways for the first time in over 40 years. 34 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:00,400 By the time I first visited it, it had become a women-only club. 35 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,040 It was closed to anyone who didn't identify as lesbian. 36 00:02:09,640 --> 00:02:13,080 Well, this is it, but something's not right. 37 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:21,000 I remember the lamppost - it shone down. That's definitely the door. 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,280 But...I'm sure it was green! 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,640 You see, this is what happens to lesbian landmarks in history - 40 00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:31,280 they literally get painted over. 41 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,080 But, you know, I've reached that age - I do what I like. 42 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,280 I can sort this. 43 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,280 Thank you! See that? That's the power of showbusiness! 44 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,480 You know, there's a theory that the song The Green Door was 45 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:45,960 actually about this green door. 46 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:47,560 I mean, it's just a story, 47 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,920 but the thing about stories is some of them get hidden, 48 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:52,240 they get covered over, 49 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,080 particularly the histories of, I don't know, women like me, 50 00:02:55,080 --> 00:02:57,720 who went to Gateways, and they should be revered, 51 00:02:57,720 --> 00:02:59,160 they should not be concealed. 52 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,320 I want to go and find them so I... Oh, ex... 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,680 Just two seconds. Hello there. Hi, I'm Sandi. What's your name? Amanda. 54 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:06,840 Oh, hi, Amanda. 55 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,200 Listen, could you just finish painting this door for me? 56 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,120 I've got a history to uncover. 57 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:13,800 It's a secret history of what actually 58 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:15,440 happened behind this green door. 59 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:17,640 One coat's fine. I'll be right back. 60 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:20,920 Well, I hope she doesn't get green paint all over her! 61 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:23,000 You know, I think it's going to be quite a revealing 62 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,960 journey into the secret lesbian history of The Gateways. 63 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,040 And I want to hear first-hand from other women who visited 64 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:33,320 this iconic lesbian club. 65 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:38,200 Well, I was a simple country girl, all the way from Penzance. 66 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,400 My landlady was lesbian with her partner. 67 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,480 I got friendly with them, and they said, 68 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:50,160 "Would you like to come to a club with us?" 69 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:54,000 And I said, "Yes, I'd love to." This was in 1947. 70 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,480 And as we were driving there, um, my landlady said to me, 71 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,560 "You are gay, aren't you?" So I said, "Yes." 72 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:09,000 I had no idea whether I was or whether it showed or anything. 73 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:15,720 The partner I had at that time, who was my first partner, um, 74 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,720 she had a friend who was a gay vicar. 75 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:23,160 He told us about The Gateways, familiarly known to us all 76 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,080 as The Gates. 77 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:30,320 With some trepidation, not knowing what to expect, really, 78 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,400 we took ourselves off to Bramerton Street. 79 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:36,600 I was first taken to The Gateways 80 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,120 by somebody called Peter Woodcock, 81 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:40,760 who taught graphic design at 82 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,200 Camberwell Art School, 83 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:47,040 where I was a student, so that would be about '64, '65. 84 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:55,760 I first went to The Gateways Club in 1985, just after I came out. 85 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,080 At that time, it was all about word-of-mouth. 86 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:04,960 So off I went with a few friends one night and realised that I'd actually 87 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,960 been living two streets away from it for the last three years. 88 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:14,120 When I told my dad that I was gay, um, the only thing... 89 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,640 ..the first thing he said to me was, "Have you been to The Gateways?" 90 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:21,520 And I said, "Yes. How do you know about The Gateways?" 91 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,680 Cos when you find it, you've got this door in a gap to navigate 92 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,840 and, you know, it was kind of weird. 93 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:33,280 Down those dark, seedy stairs and through the dark, seedy door. 94 00:05:33,280 --> 00:05:38,280 I mean, it was heaven! Marvellous, you know? Marvellous! 95 00:05:38,280 --> 00:05:46,280 MUSIC: Spooky by Dusty Springfield 96 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,960 It was a great place to get off, a great place to dance. 97 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,800 Dusty reigned from the jukebox. 98 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:02,320 Lots of girls, lots of young women dancing. 99 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,880 And I looked around and I thought, "This is heaven! 100 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:07,480 "I've gone to heaven!" 101 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:14,440 OK, I was barred twice - the first time for dancing suggestively... 102 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,200 ..and I don't quite know how you dance unsuggestively. 103 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,960 I mean, the dancing wasn't all The Gate... 104 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,720 ..grinding the coffee thing - The Gateways grind, the very 105 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,200 close dancing, if not actually making love on the dance floor. 106 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:32,960 God, The Gateways grind! 107 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,640 Basically, what it was was dancing with someone who was 108 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,080 the right height or got into the right position so that, 109 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,920 when you were dancing, you could have an orgasm. 110 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:53,200 MUSIC: Spooky by Dusty Springfield 111 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,040 It was very surprising, the first time it happened. 112 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:08,240 Of course, it had its own extra, um... 113 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,400 ..vibe because most of the girls were looking around 114 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,760 and looking at each other. People-watching. 115 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,600 You know, it was very... 116 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,040 This was before mobile phones or online dating, 117 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,720 so people would really stare, people would really stare, 118 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,800 and just let you know quite quickly if they found you attractive. 119 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,960 So it was a very high sexual content, I'd say. 120 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,960 I actually felt like I was walking into the lion's den. 121 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,280 It was like fresh meat - 122 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,280 young meat, obviously. 123 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:45,560 I felt... 124 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:46,720 They probably didn't, 125 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,720 but I felt like people sort of swarmed towards me. 126 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,240 I was petrified. 127 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,720 But I really went there to 128 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,800 pick women up, really. 129 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,600 You know, I stood at the bar, drank whisky. 130 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,560 It was a bit like a meat market, 131 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,960 you did go down there, stand at the bar, somebody would say to you, 132 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:13,280 "Do you wanna dance?" 133 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,840 I didn't fall in love with anyone in the Gateways. 134 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:17,960 I went to bed with them, you know? 135 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,200 I... 136 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:21,280 I think I was rather, I was promiscuous. 137 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,200 But that helped me, in some ways. 138 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,680 # Don't ever go 139 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:35,200 # I love you so... # 140 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,120 So here we are. Here we are. 141 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,640 40 years later. Oh, my God. 40 years?! We meet again. 142 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,760 Can't believe it's that long. 143 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,240 I was playing football at Clapham Common up the road 144 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:46,520 and I would come down, 145 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,720 but there was a big movement at the time, 146 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,160 I don't know if you remember, but people were saying, 147 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,320 "Don't come to Gateways" because it was a meat market. Yeah. 148 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,080 I was like, "Well, I'm a lesbian, 149 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,240 so I'd better get down there, 150 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,240 know what I mean?" Yeah. 151 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,240 THEY CHUCKLE 152 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:00,720 So you did? I did, yeah. 153 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,160 Well, there was nowhere, really, else to go, was there? 154 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,280 I came here on holiday. 155 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,640 I got off the train at Paddington 156 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,400 and I got into a taxi. 157 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,000 And I said to the driver, "Is there any lesbian clubs, 158 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,760 "do you know of any lesbian clubs in London?" 159 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,680 And he said, "Well, yes, there is one off the King's Road 160 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,640 "called the Gateways." 161 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,120 I thought, "Oh, wow." 162 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,680 So I went out that evening and I found it, 163 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:33,280 and became a member that night, that very night, 164 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,080 which was good. 165 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,400 These brave stories from the Gateways lesbians about their, er, 166 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,720 what shall I call it? Proclivities and activities 167 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,360 has given me an idea. 168 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:48,080 But I think first I need to pick up a fellow traveller. 169 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:50,280 Hey, Lisa! 170 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:52,040 Lisa Power! Come on in! 171 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:55,480 Hello! Hey, Lisa, come on in. 172 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,080 Ooh, what we up to? 173 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,320 Well, we are in search of hidden mysteries. 174 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:01,520 Wow. 175 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:02,800 Well, not mysteries, actually - 176 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,520 not mysteries to you and me anyway. 177 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,000 Hopefully. I want you to join me 178 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,000 THEY LAUGH 179 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,240 in revealing the mysteries of the Gateways club 180 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:10,480 and commemorate it somehow 181 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,720 before it's eradicated from people's memories. 182 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:16,240 I mean, I'm one of those people 183 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,480 who's known that I was gay my entire life. 184 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,560 It just wasn't ever... I didn't have to come out to myself. 185 00:10:21,560 --> 00:10:24,480 But when I started to sort of step out into the world... 186 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,440 It was probably '78, 1979, something like that. Yeah. 187 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,280 And I remember going to Gateways and that excitement. 188 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,400 But it's still a mystery as to how it all started. 189 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:37,560 Maybe the daughter of Ted and Gina Ware, 190 00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:40,360 the club's enigmatic owners, has the answers. 191 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,320 Going back, I mean, I'm kind of fascinated 192 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,040 by my father's era in the club 193 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,360 because it's, you know, very much before my time. 194 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,640 He's a working class Londoner, 195 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,920 he's not in any kind of environment 196 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:52,640 where he'd probably even... 197 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,400 ..encountered a gay person. 198 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,800 Or, for that matter, a black person, I don't think. 199 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,200 So he wasn't destined to be someone...who... 200 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,040 ..went out and embraced diversity. 201 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,120 It was out of the, you know, betting fraternity. 202 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,120 There was a boxing match and he was betting against the odds, 203 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,680 so he made quite a, you know, quite a big win. 204 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:18,800 And part of what he was given 205 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,160 was the lease on this basement club on the King's Road. 206 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:28,400 My, my desire is to believe he bet on LaMotta and... 207 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,200 ..it was that punch in Raging Bull that won the Gateways. 208 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,360 Now, meanwhile, 209 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,080 he hangs out in Soho 210 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,400 and he goes to a pub called Bag O' Nails. 211 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,760 Old, old Soho gay scene. 212 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:45,040 And he knew this group of women - lesbian women - 213 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,360 and he was friends with them 214 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,320 and, according to my mother, 215 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,960 he was really the only guy they bothered with. 216 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:54,920 There was a new ownership at the pub 217 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,840 and it was a husband and wife who took over the pub 218 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,760 and the wife did not want the women. Told them to go. 219 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,160 So they were like, "Well, what're we gonna do? Where are we gonna go?" 220 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:06,120 You know, "There is nowhere else to go." 221 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,880 "And there's not enough of us to be another place." 222 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,720 And he said, "Well, I've got this lease on this basement 223 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,320 "and it's an absolute dump." 224 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,840 That's how they spent the first winter of the Gateways 225 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,040 and they were all, you know, good pals and having a good laugh 226 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:23,800 and gradually the word spread 227 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,480 and of course all of his friends from the racing world... 228 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,160 There were a lot of journalists, there were a lot of... 229 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:32,880 And then the artists were coming in 230 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,480 because we were two streets up from Chelsea Arts Club. 231 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,120 So, I mean, those very early days, 232 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,240 you've got Augustus John, Jacob Epstein 233 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,200 was a member, all of them had a dab on the walls. 234 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:47,040 This painting hung in the Gateways 235 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,160 for as long as I can possibly remember. 236 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,600 It was painted by a woman called Muriel Mallows. 237 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:55,320 I don't think she was gay, I... 238 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,520 She used to watch things going on and sketch. 239 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,880 Everybody in this painting is a woman, including... 240 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,880 ..drag kings, possibly trans women, 241 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,120 except for one figure who has a hat - 242 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,400 the trilby hat - 243 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:10,680 and that's my dad. 244 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,280 So it was this really diverse crowd 245 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,440 and the women were the core. 246 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,600 You know, the lesbians started it. 247 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,080 It was for them that he'd got the club. 248 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,600 My mother, she's living with her sister in St John's Wood. 249 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,720 You know, war is done, they're having a pretty good time. 250 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:33,920 She went to the Gateways for the first time 251 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,120 on her 25th birthday with her sister. 252 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,080 They'd been shopping in the morning in Chelsea 253 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,360 and they went down for lunch. 254 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,560 The Gateways was somewhere they could go as women, 255 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:45,200 they knew they were protected, they knew they were safe 256 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,440 and they had a great time and... 257 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,680 ..he decided he was going to marry her 258 00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:54,840 and she secretly, quietly to herself agreed. 259 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,280 They had quite a romance, married quite quickly. 260 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:00,240 So the club was ongoing, 261 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:01,960 Mum and Dad were running it together. 262 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,000 I came along in... 263 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,520 ..1955 and, erm... 264 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:09,400 ..they were really pretty happy. 265 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,720 I mean, I remember as a small child, 266 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,880 she was gradually taking the Gateways more and more 267 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,800 as he was getting older 268 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,320 and he was phasing out. 269 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,480 And when I was four years old... 270 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:29,520 ..we had an American guest - Smithy - who came one evening 271 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,400 and shortly after moved in and never left. 272 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,080 I think she just was a bridge in our family - 273 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,640 between my mother and father, between me and my father, 274 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,280 between me and my mother. 275 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,600 And just something about her... 276 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,960 She was just an immensely kind-hearted person. 277 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,960 Hugely kind-hearted person. 278 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,000 Just loved children and such a hard worker, she was so conscientious. 279 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,560 Of course, you've gotta add the American military thing. 280 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:58,920 She and my mother developed a double act in the Gateways. 281 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,520 I mean, the fun, you know, that they would create. 282 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,240 Gina was... Gina was such an individual. 283 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,960 I don't know who she based her character on, 284 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,000 but she was... 285 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,600 She was glamorous, but... 286 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,360 She should have been a '40s actress. 287 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,040 Well, she was a '40s actress. What am I talking about? 288 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,320 She maintained that. 289 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,240 She had style and grace. 290 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,800 She was a classy broad. 291 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,120 She wasn't a lady. D'you know what I mean? 292 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,680 She was, she was rough around the edges. 293 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,360 But... 294 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,960 But she thought she was grand. 295 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:36,680 Bigger than life, basically. 296 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,120 I mean, there was this woman who was, 297 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,760 had an air of sophistication, 298 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,120 a very hard business-like, erm, 299 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,160 business-minded woman, I would say. 300 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,560 But fun as well. 301 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,720 Gina ruled like a queen. 302 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,880 She moved around like a stately galleon keeping an eye on everyone. 303 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,960 And she was rather terrifying. 304 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,720 Sexy, but terrifying. 305 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,880 It was her domain and she was the queen 306 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,680 and if she wanted you could come in, 307 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:08,080 and if she didn't 308 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:09,920 you wouldn't get in. Simple as that. 309 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,160 And if you dared do anything wrong, you were thrown out 310 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:17,640 cos I remember on one occasion I'd gone in and I were well oiled. 311 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,080 I'd been drinking my stepfather's homemade wine 312 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:22,680 and I was really... 313 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,360 And I had a couple of beers and I was gone. 314 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,000 And they threw me out. 315 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,400 Basically, they threw me out cos I was drunk. 316 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,200 So Gina made decisions as to who could come in 317 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,360 and who couldn't and... 318 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,840 The first thing, "Are you a member? What's your name?" 319 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,280 And then sign in. 320 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,080 And then you could sign guests in. 321 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,200 And then, of course, Smithy behind the bar. 322 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,680 I never had any problems with Smithy. 323 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,600 She... 324 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,240 She always was behind the bar with... 325 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,400 She was this strange mixture of being quite jolly, 326 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:57,400 but also looking bored to death at the same time. 327 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,960 Smithy, all I knew about her was she'd been in the army - 328 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,000 in the American army - and she kind of stayed. 329 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,920 A very... 330 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,680 A very sort of strong, butch... 331 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,240 She was quite tall, quite big lady, but... 332 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,560 You would think she would be intimidating. 333 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,840 No. I don't think she was. 334 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,160 Smithy was a big softie. 335 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,240 She... She loved to laugh. 336 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,560 She was very simple, in that respect. 337 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,800 Somebody else who wouldn't suffer fools, but might listen... 338 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:32,880 ..a bit more. 339 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,920 We would talk about women 340 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,800 in ways that a couple of butches getting together would. 341 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:41,440 And that was refreshing. 342 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:42,720 I needed that. You know? 343 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,680 I didn't get that from the English women. 344 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,560 And then I got the Gateways job. 345 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,640 Smithy was manager and Gina had the final say. 346 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,320 She and my mother became gradually, I think, great friends. 347 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:58,280 I think there was huge love between them. 348 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,520 But I didn't know 349 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,360 whether Smithy was her lover - 350 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:06,160 I mean, that was the big... 351 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,480 And I asked other people and no-one knew. 352 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,600 I just assumed that they had a very intense, 353 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,680 er, relationship as very close friends, 354 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,920 although I think Smithy was in love with... 355 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,720 Indisputably in love with Gina. 356 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,840 But Gina was married, of course, 357 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,560 and, you know, I think was happily married. 358 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:30,560 So, you know, maybe she was bisexual. 359 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:33,760 I always thought that they were an item. 360 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,960 I think most people thought they were an item. 361 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:37,640 We just assumed they were together. 362 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,080 Does that... No, you wouldn't... 363 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,320 I wouldn't have thought of asking them. 364 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,200 No way. 365 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:53,320 You always thought that somehow Gina was in charge and in control. 366 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:54,680 Yeah. 367 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,640 Whether that...is what her daughter remembers, 368 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,640 it will be interesting to see. 369 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,480 Most of the Gateways assumed they were a couple. 370 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,440 They certainly loved each other greatly, 371 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,440 but intriguingly, what she told me right at the end of her life - 372 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,600 and I'm talking about a couple of weeks before she passed away - 373 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,000 I said, "Go on, Mum. Tell me because I get asked all the time. 374 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,480 "Were you and Smithy, you know, together?" 375 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,640 I said, "It's a terrible thing to ask your mother, but tell me." 376 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,800 And, um, cos I wanna know the truth, you know? 377 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,640 And she said, "No, we weren't." 378 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,480 And she said, "But everybody thought that was because of me, 379 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,280 "and it wasn't, it was because of Smithy. 380 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,720 "Smithy's choice." 381 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,000 Gina and Smithy may not have been a couple, 382 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:45,560 but they were the epitome 383 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,600 of the Gateway's butch-femme code of conduct. 384 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,760 I do think you needed to be in it to understand it. 385 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,800 Hm. Now, I am of an age where, even then, there was a split 386 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,120 and there was the women who were supposedly identified as butch... 387 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:02,560 Yes. ..and the women who were supposedly identified as femme, 388 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,280 and I was one of those people... 389 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,200 I didn't feel like I was any of those things at all 390 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,440 and I remember trying to go to the bar to get a drink. Yes. 391 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,160 But I wasn't "butch enough" to order a drink. 392 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,920 And all the women who lined the bar laughed at me 393 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,800 and said I couldn't possibly buy a beer. 394 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,800 You wouldn't have been allowed to drink a pint. 395 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,600 You'd have had to have a half-pint, if you managed to get a beer at all! 396 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,160 But, actually, which one of us would be allowed to buy the pint? 397 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:27,360 Would it be you or me? Oh, God. 398 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:31,440 Well, I was always quite femme but definitely butch in behaviour. 399 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:32,840 But I have to say, 400 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,680 I was always very susceptible to a woman in a three-piece suit. 401 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,240 Were you? Oh, my goodness! OK. I did have a three-piece suit, 402 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,600 but I was too short to be seen over the bar! 403 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:46,160 I went down the club, thinking I was not going to leave 404 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:51,440 until I had at least snogged some gorgeous-looking woman. 405 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,040 And I saw a group of very attractive women, looking ultra-glamorous. 406 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:02,200 I mean, the femmes, a lot of them were very glamorous, 407 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,760 so I went over and repeatedly tried to buy them drinks 408 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:12,200 and repeatedly was sort of brushed off, like, "Get away! Get!", 409 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:17,080 and was also repeatedly approached by very butch lesbians, 410 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,440 wanting to dance with me, wanting to buy me drinks - 411 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:24,000 which, of course, at that time, I had, like, zero interest in. 412 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,000 So, that first evening, I left very disappointed. 413 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,160 That's not what I was looking for. 414 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,800 I wasn't looking for this role-playing kind of thing, 415 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,520 cos there was enough of that in heterosexual society. 416 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,200 And I was dismayed and... 417 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:45,400 However, you know, it was a nice place to be 418 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,960 and I kind of settled into it. 419 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:54,760 In the Gates, it was very well known for very strict codes of conduct. 420 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:59,920 There was very much a sense that you had to decide who you were 421 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:06,960 and you did have to, to an extent, conform to these ideas of the butch, 422 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,600 the butch woman, who is wearing menswear, 423 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,800 she is the one who is buying the drinks, 424 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,080 she is the one who is asking the femme to dance... 425 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:22,320 ..and then the femme woman, 426 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,080 who is, you know, got all the hair and make-up all perfect, 427 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,800 looking glamorous and waiting to be asked to dance. 428 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,560 I think, as well, something else that's really interesting 429 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,640 and important about butch-femme dynamics... 430 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,680 I think they get a lot of stick, and I understand why, in a way. 431 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:44,920 The history of butch-femme, 432 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,000 it actually has very working-class roots. 433 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:53,920 The more working-class women who stuck to that, 434 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,880 whereas there was a smaller group of, you might say, more arty 435 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,760 kind of women who were more into, you know, 436 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,480 what the '60s seem to be about, which was more about androgyny 437 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:10,840 and kind of blurring gender stereotypes 438 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,600 or getting away from gender stereotypes. 439 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,360 I was in the Army in Guildford and I was still in training. 440 00:23:17,360 --> 00:23:21,360 You weren't allowed off camp unless you wore a skirt or trouser suit. 441 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:25,160 So, if they were going up to London, 442 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,640 they would have a change of clothes with them and get dressed. 443 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,640 And in the '70s, it was very much a butch-femme thing. 444 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,200 My mother bought me a burgundy jacket, 445 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,880 and I had some burgundy shoes with black Sta-Prest trousers, 446 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:45,040 a green Sta-Prest shirt and a white kipper tie. 447 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,760 And I thought I looked the bee's knees, the real butch was in town, 448 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,080 and I'm going to the Gateways Club and I really loved it. 449 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,000 And I thought I looked fantastic. 450 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,880 And one of the staff sergeants from Guildford came over, 451 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:01,960 was talking to me and she was absolutely gorgeous, 452 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:06,120 and I'm thinking, "Oh, my God, this is... These clothes are working!" 453 00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:09,320 And when she left, she says, "Don't forget your violin." 454 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,040 Cos I looked like a gangster! 455 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,600 A lot of women from the Army did go, but the SIB - 456 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,840 which was the Special Investigations Branch - 457 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:26,440 would also send some undercover people there, as well. 458 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,840 So there was one time when I was called into the SIB, 459 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,600 and when I walked into the office, I looked across, and here was 460 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:39,680 this woman that I'd actually been snogging with on the Saturday night. 461 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,120 And her face... 462 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:44,520 She wasn't there as an undercover one, but her face turned white 463 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,560 when she saw me and realised who I was, you know? 464 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,520 So there was no way we were going to expose each other, 465 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,520 so it WAS a safe haven for us, because although lesbians 466 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,720 were legal in the civilian street, it was against military law. 467 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,200 What happened in the Gateways Club stayed there. 468 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,520 And one night, I was coming out of the Gateways - 469 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,080 you know, we had closed. 470 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,680 I was coming out and I recognised the cops, 471 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,920 so I started to speak to them, and they said, "We can't talk about it." 472 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:21,000 So I said, "Are you looking for someone in particular? 473 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,600 "Why are you sitting outside of the Gateways? What's going on?" 474 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,840 So I think every now and then, they just... 475 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,840 They didn't harass us, but they also... It wasn't comfortable. 476 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,400 Then I discovered that there was a rumour going around 477 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,840 that I was from the police. 478 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,080 Now, whether I looked so straight, I don't know! 479 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:47,200 And, of course, people were afraid of being spied on, because... 480 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,640 ..although it wasn't illegal, there was the possibility 481 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:58,160 of losing your job or being blackmailed in some way. 482 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,320 And you soon learnt that if you're going to go to the Gateways Club, 483 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,840 because it is run by Smithy and Gina, 484 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,760 there's not going to be any trouble. 485 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,160 Don't make trouble. You know, you'll never come back in. 486 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,960 If you want to keep going back there, 487 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,480 then you go with this attitude that you're just going to have 488 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,080 good fun, good times, and nothing's going to aggravate you 489 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:18,920 in any size, shape or form. 490 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,240 You know, your worst enemy could be at the other side of the club 491 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,480 and you know that you're just going to enjoy yourself 492 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,280 and not get into any aggravation. 493 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,840 I was really scared, cos people were like, 494 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,440 "If you look at somebody's girlfriend, you'll be in trouble," 495 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,640 so I kind of still remember as I'm here now 496 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,720 walking in and kind of looking at the floor... Yeah, duck! 497 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,360 "Don't look at anyone, don't look at anyone!" I was so scared. 498 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:46,840 And I remember someone asking me to dance here, and I danced, 499 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,360 and I asked her her name. And she said, "I didn't ask you to talk, 500 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:55,640 "I asked you to dance," so it was quite scary sometimes. 501 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,320 There were all sorts of dramas going on at the Gates. 502 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,800 # She's hurt you again 503 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,360 # I can tell 504 00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:09,520 # Oh, I know that look so well... # 505 00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,360 There would be, like, fights. 506 00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:15,600 Not often, but there would be sort of scenes going on. 507 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,040 And a lot of it was to do with jealousy. 508 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,560 But I have to confess that Gina had to bar me one night... 509 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,400 LAUGHS: ..because I got very stroppy, 510 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,600 because there was obviously something going on 511 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,440 between this girlfriend and I. And she was down there - 512 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,960 I think it might have been when they'd closed up for the night - 513 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,560 and I was banging on the door at the top... 514 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:40,720 SCREECHING 515 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,080 ..having a bit of a sort of drunken tantrum, 516 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,160 because I wanted to speak to her. 517 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,480 LAUGHS: And I got barred for a week, I think! 518 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,040 But they were very empathetic, Gina and Smithy, and sort of said, 519 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,960 "I don't know what you're doing. You know, you're wasting your time." 520 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,720 Oh, well, that's when Smithy came into her own. 521 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,160 She used to be in there and... "Oh, come on, come on!", 522 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,200 you know, and separate everyone out. So, yeah, I was not a fighter. 523 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,800 But there was always "Keep it down, keep it quiet," 524 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,040 because they had a good relationship with the police 525 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,160 but, you know, any excuse back in those days to give you any grief 526 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,760 and to lose the licence and all the rest of it. 527 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,440 There may have been drama inside the Gateways, 528 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,400 but the club itself featured in a big-screen drama 529 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,840 in the infamous 1968 movie The Killing Of Sister George. 530 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,640 Killing of Sister George is, I think, a kind of iconic moment 531 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,680 in lesbian cinema. I mean, first of all, think about the date. 532 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,080 This is 1968, just one year after the Wolfenden Report, 533 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,800 after the decriminalisation of homosexuality - 534 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,600 obviously that didn't apply to women, because women didn't count - 535 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,840 but, still, the sort of society at the time 536 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,840 would have meant that queer lives, generally, were hidden, underground, 537 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,200 unaccepted, discriminated against. 538 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:05,120 So, just one year after the law changed, to have this film - 539 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,240 which is the first English-language film 540 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,960 that's ever featured a kind of...strong, legitimate 541 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,240 female lesbian relationship - was a really big deal. 542 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,640 I think the tag line for the film was something like 543 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,960 "three consenting adults in the privacy of their own homes" 544 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,040 or something. 545 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,560 I remember seeing The Killing Of Sister George 546 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,200 and hating it. 547 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,200 I think I subsequently saw it again and hated it just as much. 548 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,400 It's a terrible film! 549 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,960 I think one of the troubles is it's scripted by men. 550 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,600 You know, and it's all right having men scripting 551 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,320 what they think lesbians are, but you have to... 552 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,960 If it had been against the backdrop of lesbians saying who they were. 553 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,000 So, Frank Marcus, who wrote the original stage play, 554 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,840 there's quite a lot of rumour around why he wrote it 555 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,160 and why he made the relationships explicitly lesbian. 556 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,320 The implication was that his wife, who was an actress at the time, 557 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,000 was apparently a client of the Gateway Club 558 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,400 and enjoyed the company of ladies. 559 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,600 So I think there's lots of really incredible things 560 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,680 to talk about with this film, but the biggest of those, I think, 561 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,280 is the fact that they shot the Gateways sequence - 562 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,920 this ten-minute, pivotal sequence in the middle of the film - 563 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,920 in the actual, real-life Gateways Club. 564 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,280 Not only that, they used the actual real-life Gateways clientele, 565 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,280 the Saturday night crowd, as extras in the film. 566 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:36,880 What is less clear - about why the clientele agreed to be on camera. 567 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:42,120 What I imagine none of them imagined was who would have seen the film, 568 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,560 because I think there's a dislocate between, you know, 569 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,600 people...going to the club that they always go to on a Saturday night 570 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,400 and, yes, there being a film crew there, filming them, 571 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,280 and then the idea that, actually, people in cinemas 572 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,800 and on TV screens the world over are then going to see them. 573 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,920 I think that, probably, those connections hadn't been made. 574 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,960 You have to question a little bit about the ethics 575 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,440 of the film-making team at this point, actually, 576 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,040 and the ethics of the management of the Gateway Club. 577 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:11,240 Bob Aldrich approached my mother. 578 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:16,640 He pitched it to her that he would like to film in the club, 579 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,760 and she, as is fairly well known... 580 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:22,960 ..said to him, "Well, why have extras? 581 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,960 "Every girl in here, all my members need a day's work. 582 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,240 "And, in any case, they should play themselves. 583 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,080 "They should be themselves if you want it to be authentic." 584 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,240 Smithy said... You know, they kept having to go over her part. 585 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:42,400 Righto! 586 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,560 "Rightio!" I found that kind of hilarious, 587 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,240 because, obviously, they didn't have acting experience... 588 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,720 Well, Gina had acting experience. 589 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,800 Are they members? Yes, I think so. They are expecting me. 590 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,640 I suppose Coral Browne, for that film... 591 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,640 I don't know if she studied Gina a bit, 592 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,000 but, I mean, Coral Browne in The Killing Of Sister George 593 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,720 rather reminded me of Gina - 594 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:12,800 that rather glamorous, sort of in-command person. 595 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,640 I think they really made the best of using the real people, 596 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,120 the real Gateways regulars, and did lots of tricksy things with... 597 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,720 There's a sequence here where two of the regulars are dancing together. 598 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,160 One looks over the other's shoulder and just... 599 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,160 ..gives a little wink, blows a little kiss. 600 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,360 And then the film cuts to a rather shocked-looking Mrs Croft - 601 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,800 Coral Browne. You know... 602 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,760 I'm not sure that that was actually what was happening at the time, 603 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,400 but that's certainly the way that the film-makers interpreted it. 604 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,520 The sequence where Mrs Croft enters the Gateway for the first time - 605 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,480 she barges past these two door butches 606 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,480 and makes her way into the club. 607 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,800 There's a little bit of a conflict there 608 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,880 between what happens in real life, 609 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,880 what would have happened in real life, and actually 610 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,720 what Robert Aldrich, the director, how he directed her to behave. 611 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,520 Because, actually, what would have happened, had she really been this 612 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,880 pretty woman entering this particular club, 613 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,440 past these two stone butches, they would have stepped aside, 614 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,600 they would have welcomed her into the club, 615 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,800 etiquette would have demanded they would have stepped aside. 616 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,640 It was much sort of seedier than it looked in the film, I think. 617 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,960 Very seedy lavatories, but quite a good place to get up to things. 618 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,080 One of the great kind of trivia moments of the film is when 619 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,400 they pick up the phone, and actually give the Gateway phone number, and 620 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,040 the number they give is the real - was the real - Gateway phone number. 621 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,880 People quickly cottoned on that actually WAS the phone number, 622 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,440 cos that was the one I used to phone my mum on at night, 623 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,920 and I couldn't phone her any more to say goodnight, 624 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:46,560 I couldn't get through any more. 625 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,240 It was absolutely swamped, and people came from all over the world. 626 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,800 They had a pretty amazing time, riotous time doing it. 627 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,880 Beryl Reid's not queer, you know, 628 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,480 there is no suggestion that she ever was, 629 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,360 but I think what she is is actually a really good actor, 630 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,760 and, you know, she performed her role absolutely beautifully. 631 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,640 I, you know, want to think that it was a right laugh. 632 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,360 I imagine the clientele of the Gateway has probably really embraced 633 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,080 her, you see the photo of them giving her a birthday cake 634 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,640 on the last day of the shoot. Now, I think that's probably 635 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,400 because they recognised one of their own there. 636 00:34:22,720 --> 00:34:25,720 And the cast of the movie weren't the only famous names to have 637 00:34:25,720 --> 00:34:27,240 graced the Gateways. 638 00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:29,680 I used to just rush over, 639 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,600 if I saw an attractive, older, glamorous woman, 640 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,360 and ask to buy them a drink. 641 00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,120 One of my first - ha! - successes after many, many failures was 642 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:39,600 with someone called... 643 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,720 She was calling herself at the time Lindi St Clair. 644 00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:45,080 Well, she told me that she had a private income, 645 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:50,120 and as she lived in a mews house, I believed every word she said. 646 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:55,280 But actually it turned out that she was a professional dominatrix 647 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:01,480 called Madam Whiplash, and later she actually stood for Parliament. 648 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,480 The Madam Whiplash Party, of course supported by her clients. 649 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,560 A lot of her clients were councillors, very high-profile 650 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:17,200 people, and when I first went round to her flat and discovered the 651 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:22,360 clothes she had in her wardrobe, I just thought it was absolute heaven. 652 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:28,280 You know, latex, rubber, leather, really fabulous clothes. 653 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,200 Chamois leather. 654 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:31,800 And we had a lot of fun. 655 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:38,000 I had an affair with a much older woman, who was very famous 656 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,840 and very beautiful. Her name was June, 657 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,440 and she had been married to Winston Churchill's son Randolph. 658 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,480 It was all very exciting 659 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,960 and she was the first person who took me to the Gateways. 660 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,400 And so I wasn't really particularly scared about it. 661 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,000 We just sort of fell down the stairs and, you know, 662 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,680 everything took off from there. 663 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,120 So, the thing about the Gateways was that it was a sort of rather 664 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,760 magical place. You could go into the Gateways, 665 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,080 you could either totally be yourself, your authentic self 666 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,600 in a way that you perhaps couldn't be on the street, or you could 667 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,880 absolutely reinvent yourself and be someone completely different, 668 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,960 who you maybe wanted to be for one night. 669 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,320 And one of the people I met was someone, 670 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:31,840 a woman who approached me, who absolutely wasn't my type, 671 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,960 and who was rather rude, and the first thing she said to me was, 672 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,000 "Oh, you're such a pretty little thing." 673 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,480 So I immediately didn't like her! 674 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:42,800 She said, "Oh, if you cheer up a bit, 675 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,120 "I might even put you in one of my books." 676 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,560 And I just sloped off, but then... 677 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,320 ..later someone told me, "Why did you give her the brushoff?" 678 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,360 You know, "She's got, like, a castle, she's got an island, 679 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,360 "she's a famous person." I thought, "Damn!" 680 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,280 Cos I'd never actually met a famous person, ever! But I suppose 681 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,160 I sort of thought that everyone was a famous person at the Gateways. 682 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,720 Who do you think it was? 683 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,720 Uh, I don't know. 684 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:15,840 Was it her? 685 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:18,480 Oh, yes. 686 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,800 By this time, Patricia Highsmith was best known for 687 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,640 her bestselling lesbian novel Carol. 688 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,760 One person I do remember seeing there was Patricia Highsmith, 689 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,760 one evening, I remember she was wearing dark glasses 690 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:40,480 and standing at the back of the room, and surveying it. 691 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,920 This was her tribe, I suppose. 692 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,640 The same way for us all. 693 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,560 Right at the end of her life, 694 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,000 in the last couple of weeks before my mother died, 695 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,240 I spent as much time as I could with her, you know, she was fading, 696 00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:57,600 she was getting old, and she and I were sat there one night 697 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,960 and we were going through the stories of the Gateways over 698 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:06,080 the years, and dozing in front of the television, both of us, 699 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,800 and she was really quite frail by this point. 700 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,960 There was an old Stones clip came on the TV. 701 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,680 "Mick, oh, it's Mick! 702 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,240 "Oh, he was a lovely boy!" 703 00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:16,840 I'm going... "What?" 704 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:20,760 "Oh, he was lovely. He used to talk to me outside the Gateways, 705 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,240 "you know." "What?!" 706 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:25,800 CHUCKLING 707 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,760 "Oh, yeah, he wanted to come down to the club, you know, he said, 708 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,880 "'Gina, please let me come, I'll wear a dress.'" 709 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,920 And she said, "I can't." And it was after they'd had this... 710 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,440 There'd been this big stink about, you know, is this a women's 711 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,720 club or isn't it a women's club, are we letting men in or not? 712 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:49,160 But she'd had to draw a line, and at that point was sticking to it, 713 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,600 you know, as honourably as she could. 714 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:56,080 Famous customers or not, it was the Gateways itself that was 715 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,400 finding its place in popular culture. 716 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,280 I fond the Man Alive clips kind of horribly fascinating. 717 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,120 The swashbuckling approach, the heartiness, the thumping stride, 718 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,040 the tough man's clothes. These things are natural to some 719 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,000 lesbians, but mostly unacceptable to people outside that world. 720 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,040 This means that for lesbians who want to relax in the kind of clothes 721 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,880 and the kind of way that make them happy, there are few places to go. 722 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,600 One of them is a club in Chelsea, 723 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,440 a place where there is no longer any need to pretend. 724 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,480 There they can dance, drink, flirt, 725 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:31,000 make friends, discuss their problem with others who will understand. 726 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,680 And it isn't just in public places 727 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:34,840 that life is made more difficult for them. 728 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,520 There's basically the posh bird who's doing the interview. 729 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:39,680 End of this whole episode of talking 730 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,040 to these lesbians, and these lives, 731 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,200 you got a sense that she kind of fancies, you know, running off 732 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:46,480 and trying a bit herself 733 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:48,320 because she's got this, like, look 734 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,360 and she's listening to this tragedy. 735 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,440 These lesbians understand how marriage might destroy them. 736 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,080 Others find out too late, after they HAVE married 737 00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:57,440 and tried to live normally. 738 00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,560 It's incredibly moving and sort of shocking. 739 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,840 But I was impressed that they name checked the Gateways 740 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,480 on Call The Midwife. The redhead chick, and then there's 741 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,400 the Welsh chick, and the redhead one didn't want to go because, 742 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,280 "Oh, I'm not like that, I just love YOU." 743 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,720 That line, all lesbians have heard back in the day, 744 00:40:14,720 --> 00:40:17,040 "No, I'm not a lesbian, I just like you." 745 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,800 And they go, and the other one says, "At least we can hold hands." 746 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,760 So that was interesting. 747 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,680 Because then, transgression is so exciting, right, 748 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,120 so the Gateways Grind... 749 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,680 So we didn't see that on Call The Midwife, unfortunately. 750 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:35,280 The Green Door, that song, Shakin' Stevens, you know, 751 00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,720 did the song that people know about. 752 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,000 And then, you know, some people have said, 753 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,520 "Oh, no, it's about prohibition in America," 754 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,880 but I think, you know, we can appropriate history, 755 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,400 and also I think that the synchronicity 756 00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,320 is very interesting because the original lyrics, 757 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,080 saying, "Joe sent you," referring to Joe Meek. 758 00:40:56,080 --> 00:41:00,200 And of course Joe Meek was this big music producer who, you know, 759 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,080 he did the Frankie Vaughan version, 760 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,920 and so people sort of looked at that, and of course Joe Meek 761 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:11,000 was gay, took his boyfriend there, you know, in the '50s and stuff. 762 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,120 What my mother told me was that Joe told her that he was 763 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,920 producing a record that was going to be a hit, 764 00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:22,320 it was called The Green Door, he had co-written it with somebody else, 765 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,920 an American guy, Frankie Vaughan was going to do it in the UK, 766 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:30,760 and it was called The Green Door, and it was about the Gateways. 767 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,320 Now, that's what I was told. 768 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,840 Other people say, "No, it was written about a club..." 769 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,440 in St Louis or New Orleans or somewhere, 770 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,680 there's various different stories, but Joe Meek told my mother that. 771 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,080 So green was the colour of the sort of speakeasy, 772 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,040 the sort of naughty place to go, and historically in America, 773 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:53,760 you know, you had green doors. 774 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,800 Certainly there is an element of the New York speakeasies 775 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,400 in the Gateways. 776 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:03,960 It's basically a speakeasy with a sort of sexy and mysterious twist 777 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,920 because it's lesbian speakeasy. 778 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,080 But it sort of became one. 779 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,360 But was the Gateways as diverse in race and class 780 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,920 as the original speakeasies? 781 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,240 Gateways, prior to the late 1980s, 782 00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:22,000 needed to envelop everybody. 783 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,960 And, as far as I'm aware, 784 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,720 their policy was very much an all-encompassing one. 785 00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:37,040 There were definitely quite a number women of colour that made it 786 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,480 their place to go. 787 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,480 And it was classless. 788 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,840 There were upper-middle-class girls there with wonderful accents, 789 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,600 there were prostitutes, 790 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,280 it was utterly classless. 791 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,320 What they had in common was that they were lesbian. 792 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:56,520 And propping the bar was this... Well, there was always this line of, 793 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,040 I suppose they would call them bull dykes, really, Eton crops 794 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,600 and ties and suits and all of that. 795 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:09,800 And they nearly all seemed to be swimming pool attendants 796 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,800 at Tooting Bec Lido. 797 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,760 For the first few weeks, because once I had become a member... 798 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,360 ..I spent a great many evenings there, and people would ask me 799 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,800 what I did, and so I said I was a swimming pool attendant 800 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,360 because I thought that was the thing to say. 801 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,160 But then, if anybody asked me 802 00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,000 any kind of technical question or when I was on duty, 803 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:39,360 it was hopeless because actually I can't even swim! 804 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,280 It's probably why I paint the sea so much, you know, I can't even swim. 805 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:44,840 So I had to sort of give that up 806 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,160 and let on I was an art student, you know? 807 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,400 I think one of the reasons to really celebrate and to remember 808 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,680 and commemorate a place like the Gateways is 809 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,240 at least there was somewhere. They're sort of isn't... 810 00:43:56,240 --> 00:43:59,080 Weirdly, it's easier now but it's also more difficult 811 00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,160 because there ISN'T a place like that any more, is there? 812 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:07,560 Places were hidden and only known by the in-crowd, but they existed. 813 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,840 And I think that, you know, 814 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,120 things have changed a great deal in that time, 815 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,640 and things are much more open now, but equally there are 816 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,960 far less explicitly lesbian, explicitly gay venues 817 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,760 than there used to be. I don't know where you'd go to meet... 818 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,480 I mean, I'm happily married, so I'm fine, but I don't know 819 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,240 where you'd go to meet somebody now! 820 00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:29,440 Oh, I always went to voluntary organisations. 821 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,920 Switchboard, Gay's The Word, Lesbian Discussion Group - 822 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,840 oh, you can pick up a good woman over an argument! 823 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,960 I think there was an innocence, there was an innocence, 824 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:43,200 when I'm saying about it being conservative, I think... 825 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:48,280 ..Smithy and Gina just wanted to keep those times as they were 826 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,400 without having to think about feminism 827 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,600 or women's liberation and that kind of thing. 828 00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,800 The first time I went to Gateways, I was actually thrown out! 829 00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,760 I mean, I knew I loved you. 830 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,040 Now I adore you. 831 00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:04,400 It was entirely unintentional. 832 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,560 I was trying to go in and I wasn't trying to make trouble. 833 00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,640 I was with a friend, Jill Posener, 834 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,080 who later became a very, very famous photographer, 835 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,360 but she'd just written the first lesbian play 836 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,400 that was to be performed by Gay Sweatshop, 837 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:18,600 called Any Woman Can. 838 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,320 So what year are we talking about? 839 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,040 We're talking 1976, I think, or thereabouts. 840 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,760 And we... I was helping her put up posters 841 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,080 in lesbian venues in London, 842 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,600 except that lots of the lesbian venues, such as they existed - 843 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,920 tiny drinking clubs in Soho and so on - 844 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,680 didn't want them and we came to the Gateways and we... 845 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,400 Because it was too obvious or... 846 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,840 Because they didn't want anyone to talk about lesbianism or to... 847 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,880 SANDI SIGHS 848 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,880 You know, it was too showy. 849 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,640 Girls should be discreet, would be the line. Right. 850 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,840 So we got halfway down the stairs at Gateways 851 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,600 and Jill started putting up a poster on the stairway 852 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:01,080 and one of the proprietors caught her at it and we were bustled out. 853 00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,440 But - but - I was allowed to go back later on, 854 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,240 when I was volunteering on Gay Switchboard 855 00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:11,560 because they would let men in on a Sunday lunchtime 856 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,880 and the lesbians of what was then Gay Switchboard - 857 00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:16,800 became Lesbian and Gay Switchboard - 858 00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:21,080 the lesbians would take some of the men down as a special treat, 859 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,520 so that they could see what the Gateways was like 860 00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,440 and describe it to the lesbian callers 861 00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,880 who wanted to know what they'd be getting. Oh, OK. 862 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,600 So it had a practical purpose? Yeah. 863 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,080 We did it in both directions. 864 00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:33,520 I mean, I got dragged to various gay clubs - 865 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,160 the ones that would let women in, cos a lot of them wouldn't at all. 866 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,320 Equally, you know, we took some of the men down to the Gateways. 867 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,400 That was another thing about the Gateways, 868 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,800 that it never seemed very political at all. 869 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,240 And why should it be? 870 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:51,280 A group of us went to the Gateways to issue leaflets 871 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:57,080 or talk about GLF and said more women should join GLF. 872 00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:03,640 And the, um, the owners or the managers were furious about this 873 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,320 and didn't like it at all. 874 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,960 Smithy, who was the more butch one, 875 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,760 just said, you know, "This is absolutely horrible. 876 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:14,480 "We don't want to be out. We don't want to be any of this. 877 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,600 "And just get out," you know, "just go." 878 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,440 I think she said to me, "I'd like to kick your bum up the stairs." 879 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,960 I mean, she didn't actually attack me, 880 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,240 but she was so angry 881 00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:29,480 and actually I felt rather bewildered, 882 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:33,080 I couldn't really understand why they would be so angry. 883 00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:37,360 So, having been chucked out of the Gateways, we went back to GLF 884 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,640 and we said, "We should have a demonstration against the Gateways," 885 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:43,600 so this demonstration was organised and... 886 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,040 ..included men and so we went back 887 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,040 outside the Gateways and demonstrated. 888 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,760 And I suppose they must have called the police 889 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,640 because some people were arrested. 890 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:58,080 I think one thing about the Gateways was it was in a basement, 891 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:04,120 so perhaps that eventually made it seem rather under the counter 892 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,000 or concealed and not out, 893 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,760 and of course the whole message of GLF was you must be out, so... 894 00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,360 You know, out of the closet, into the street, sort of thing, 895 00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,680 so that was what it was about 896 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,240 and I'm not sure that the purpose of the demonstration 897 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:23,000 was all that clear, but it was about that. 898 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,800 One of the things that was kind of misunderstood about the Gateways, 899 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,160 when people came down complaining about it being closet, 900 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:29,800 a lot of people there were women 901 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,480 and had their children, and they wouldn't have had their children 902 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:37,080 if their rotten, estranged husbands... You know. 903 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,520 Cos these things weren't always very merry 904 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:43,840 and friendly and civilised. 905 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:45,640 You know, you only had to go to court and say, 906 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:49,040 "Well, she goes to the Gateways Club, she's a lesbian," 907 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:51,880 and that would be it, you'd lose your children. 908 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,080 It wasn't something you could risk. 909 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,360 So Gateways was necessarily protected and careful. 910 00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,680 You know, losing your kids is just not negotiable. 911 00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,560 I don't care what, you know, anyone says. 912 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,800 So, no, people weren't out, 913 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,000 they were very cautious when they were raising their... 914 00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:09,480 When their children were young. 915 00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:14,240 My mother was very close friends with Gina and Smithy, 916 00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:17,200 and there was kind of a crowd, an in-crowd. 917 00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:21,760 All about the same age. A lot... 918 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:23,200 Quite a few of them had children. 919 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,840 Andrew and I were very much, I think, as he would say, 920 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,560 children of the Gateways. 921 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:30,800 Our mothers were very good friends. 922 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,160 Um, his mother became a very good friend of mine, actually. 923 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:37,360 I used to stay with her - with her partner, Jo. 924 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,840 They've been together many years. 925 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,240 Great love between those two. 926 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:43,840 Two good women. 927 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,200 Went through a lot together, and survived it. 928 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:48,520 Made it. 929 00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,520 And she had her two boys. 930 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,920 But my mother's sister... Oh, my God! 931 00:49:56,920 --> 00:49:58,400 Who's going to see this? 932 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,840 My mother's sister, um... 933 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,400 ..put my father up to accusing my mother 934 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,160 of being a wicked woman, 935 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,120 in court. 936 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,520 But, anyway, whatever it was. Adultery with another woman. 937 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,400 So... But the judge was outraged. 938 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:22,120 He was completely outraged because my father had not looked after us. 939 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,560 Um, and, er, my mother was wicked. 940 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,120 So we were made wards of court. 941 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,520 But the agreement was, no custody for either parent. 942 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,960 That was...done. 943 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,760 So we just went back to live with my mother. 944 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,120 But we were told, "Don't tell anyone!" 945 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,320 Don't speak about it, cos you're not allowed to. 946 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:49,160 You know, because if it was found we were gay at that time, 947 00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,720 you could lose your job...easily. 948 00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:54,360 You would lose your job if they found out. 949 00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,640 And you would lose your flat, as well. 950 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,640 And so, you know, I mean, a lot of the girls, 951 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,320 they had to do terrible jobs. 952 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,640 I don't know if I should mention this but some of them 953 00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:08,720 had to be on the game, quite a few I knew. 954 00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:11,480 Nothing else they could really do that would pay the bills. 955 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,480 For many people, they'd been thrown out. 956 00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:15,600 They'd been told never to come home again. 957 00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,520 You know, they didn't have any family connections. 958 00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:20,560 So, you know, what was the alternative? 959 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,960 Live in abject misery and social isolation. 960 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,760 So without places like the Gateways, honestly, 961 00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:32,640 we wouldn't have had the ability to come together and be together. 962 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,040 So my best friend I met at the Gateways. 963 00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,680 I was 17, she was 19. 964 00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,640 She's my best friend to this day. 965 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:43,640 I think many, many friendships, um, and relationships were forged, 966 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,640 and won, and lost at that club. 967 00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:51,480 And we have to remember that for a lot of the time 968 00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:54,600 that Gateways was extremely popular, 969 00:51:54,600 --> 00:52:00,520 it was a place of sanctuary and safety in a world 970 00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,160 that didn't want us, or where we were completely invisible. 971 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,160 Because when I think about... 972 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,400 1979 was probably the first time 973 00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:09,800 I ever went to Gateways. 974 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,200 It was also the same year that my Cambridge college decided 975 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,200 they wanted to expel me because they had discovered I was a lesbian. 976 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:17,080 Now, in the end, they didn't do it 977 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:19,200 because of my excellent academic record. 978 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,720 So if you're going to be gay, at least be clever about it. 979 00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:27,040 Um... But I remember going with the weight of that to Gateways, 980 00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,440 feeling that I had been excluded from society in general, 981 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,920 and, thank goodness, here was a small room, 982 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,840 where I could at least be myself for an hour or two. 983 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:42,040 Absolutely. So I have to be glad that things have changed that much. 984 00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,280 I never thought, 40 years later, 985 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,120 I would be able to go back to Gateways, 986 00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:48,680 and I'd be happily married to a woman, and I have a family, 987 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,040 and all of those things might have happened for me 988 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,200 when I was that scared and frightened 21-year-old. 989 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,160 So it came to an end in 1985. 990 00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:59,160 Not just because other clubs were opening 991 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,120 but because things had changed. 992 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,240 My dad died in 1979. 993 00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:07,080 My mum and Smithy were getting older and it was just time to stop. 994 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,840 They'd been running the club together for over 25 years. 995 00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,720 For most of that, they were open seven days a week. 996 00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:14,240 They wanted it to end with a bang! 997 00:53:14,240 --> 00:53:18,120 I did go back for the closing party, 998 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:22,600 which was really, really memorable, and absolutely rammed. 999 00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:26,240 You know, women were spilling out of the club. 1000 00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:28,520 # In the morning 1001 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:34,360 # Beats a cup of coffee for starting off the day. # 1002 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,480 But it was broad daylight outside. 1003 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,360 It was a really sunny, hot day. 1004 00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,120 So the closing party must have begun, you know, 1005 00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,240 at, I guess, 1006 00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:47,040 an early hour of the day. 1007 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,280 It was very celebratory. 1008 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,440 It was very packed. 1009 00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:57,440 Lots of fun, again, as was always the case. 1010 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,600 And lots of drinking, and that sort of thing. 1011 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,800 Um, never to be replaced. 1012 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:04,280 Never to be replaced. 1013 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:08,520 I'm just smiling, thinking about the times there, you know. 1014 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:10,000 And, um... 1015 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,120 Yeah, it was really good. Really good. 1016 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:14,960 Should be revered. 1017 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:16,840 Should be revered. 1018 00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:20,600 And I do know a lot of people don't know it even existed. 1019 00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:23,600 It would be a crime against lesbian history 1020 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,000 for people not to know about the existence of the Gateways. 1021 00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,520 One of the ways in which English Heritage commemorates 1022 00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,680 famous people is they put up a blue plaque to them. 1023 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:33,880 Now, I don't think it'll surprise anybody - 1024 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:35,720 most of these plaques are for men. 1025 00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:38,320 The interesting thing is, there's a lot of gay men. 1026 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:41,080 There's Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Ivor Novello, Kenneth Williams, 1027 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:42,560 Alan Turing. 1028 00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:44,240 But where are the lesbians? 1029 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:47,280 And lesbian landmarks like the Gateways. 1030 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,800 I think it would be wonderful if there's a blue plaque. 1031 00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,800 Because, you know, there's... 1032 00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,960 In many ways, it speaks of hindsight. 1033 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:04,840 And it's good that one looks at the Gateways with hindsight. 1034 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,040 Because, why should... 1035 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,560 Why should the fact that you're lesbian 1036 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,280 mean you're herded together 1037 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,280 into a small room with the door closed, you know? 1038 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:20,800 This drawing a line under the whole thing of invisibility and no past, 1039 00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:22,520 you know, you have to have a past 1040 00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,680 in order to have a present and a future! 1041 00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,080 And, for that reason, yes, a large blue plaque! 1042 00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:33,880 Will it have Gina and Smithy on it? LAUGHTER 1043 00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:38,320 I think it would be the best, best present in the world 1044 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:44,040 if Gateways reopened, and got resurrected and revived. 1045 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,600 It would be absolutely amazing. 1046 00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,160 Somebody has to stand up for that reality, 1047 00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:53,560 for that, you know... That smelly little basement, 1048 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:55,360 where life happened. 1049 00:55:55,360 --> 00:55:59,640 And, you know, gay women, when there was no place else, 1050 00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:03,640 were able to live, and create their relationships 1051 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,560 and their families and their homes and live their lives, 1052 00:56:07,560 --> 00:56:11,240 and meet each other, and grow businesses. 1053 00:56:11,240 --> 00:56:16,160 You know, become women that they weren't especially expected 1054 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:17,800 to be when they started, 1055 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,680 because they had that base. It was tremendous. 1056 00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,360 And for the other people at the Gateways. 1057 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:27,280 Not just the lesbian era, but for the early era, as well. 1058 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:33,320 You know, it was a place where...the bullshit didn't have the upper hand. 1059 00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:42,600 Are you ready? As I'll ever be. Let's do this. 1060 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:48,000 So the decision to award Gateways a blue plaque is still pending. 1061 00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,560 But we are very hopeful that it will be awarded 1062 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,920 because, as we have seen, there are simply not enough 1063 00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,520 lesbian spaces, or places that lesbians have lived, 1064 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,680 loved and worked that have been commemorated with a blue plaque. 1065 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,760 And, as we've heard, there are hundreds of lesbians, 1066 00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:10,960 who have lived, loved, danced, talked, fought, and been seen, 1067 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,200 felt safe, been themselves, 1068 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,720 including me, beyond that green door. 1069 00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,920 So in their name, all those brave women, who walked through that door 1070 00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,840 and down the stairs, those who walked before us, 1071 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:29,680 those who walked with us, and those who will walk after us... 1072 00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:31,520 That's my wife! 1073 00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:35,800 ..in their name, we are putting up this temporary blue plaque 1074 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,680 until the permanent one is awarded.