1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:03,044 --> 00:00:06,172 [quiet theme music] 3 00:00:06,214 --> 00:00:12,137 * * 4 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 5 00:00:12,178 --> 00:00:14,472 [patriotic music] 6 00:00:14,514 --> 00:00:16,057 - America... 7 00:00:16,099 --> 00:00:17,517 [crowd chatter] 8 00:00:17,559 --> 00:00:20,353 Land of opportunity... 9 00:00:20,395 --> 00:00:23,773 and a basic promise. 10 00:00:23,815 --> 00:00:25,692 - A nation that rewards the effort and determination 11 00:00:25,734 --> 00:00:27,694 of every single American. 12 00:00:27,736 --> 00:00:30,697 - So the least among us shall have an equal chance 13 00:00:30,739 --> 00:00:32,866 to achieve the greatest things. 14 00:00:32,907 --> 00:00:37,120 - And the doors of higher education will be open to all. 15 00:00:37,162 --> 00:00:39,372 - No matter what your circumstances 16 00:00:39,414 --> 00:00:41,291 or where you are, 17 00:00:41,332 --> 00:00:45,337 you are part of the life of our great nation. 18 00:00:45,378 --> 00:00:47,630 - It's one thing all our presidents agree on, 19 00:00:47,672 --> 00:00:50,508 each in their own unique way. 20 00:00:50,550 --> 00:00:51,801 [patriotic music winds down] 21 00:00:51,843 --> 00:00:54,137 - Have a good life. We will see you soon. 22 00:00:54,179 --> 00:00:56,639 - And to get that good life, 23 00:00:56,681 --> 00:00:59,768 all we had to do was follow the instruction manual 24 00:00:59,809 --> 00:01:01,436 on how to do the right thing... 25 00:01:01,478 --> 00:01:03,188 study hard, 26 00:01:03,229 --> 00:01:05,106 be nice to your brother... - Get him! 27 00:01:05,148 --> 00:01:08,234 - Go to college, graduate, 28 00:01:08,276 --> 00:01:11,738 and voila, achieve the American dream. 29 00:01:11,780 --> 00:01:13,531 But at some point... 30 00:01:13,573 --> 00:01:14,783 [clattering] 31 00:01:14,824 --> 00:01:16,534 - The US economy shrinking. 32 00:01:16,576 --> 00:01:17,744 - They're not getting married. They're not getting homes. 33 00:01:17,786 --> 00:01:19,371 They're not getting jobs. 34 00:01:19,412 --> 00:01:21,581 - We've been looking at 40 years of flat wages. 35 00:01:21,623 --> 00:01:25,543 - Those doors to opportunity got harder to open. 36 00:01:25,585 --> 00:01:28,213 [light laughter] 37 00:01:28,254 --> 00:01:29,673 - This is a big one-- staggering debt 38 00:01:29,714 --> 00:01:31,216 from student loans. 39 00:01:31,257 --> 00:01:32,884 - Today, that old instruction manual 40 00:01:32,926 --> 00:01:34,511 feels like false advertising. 41 00:01:34,552 --> 00:01:36,137 - The system is unfair. 42 00:01:36,179 --> 00:01:37,847 We tell young people to go to college. 43 00:01:37,889 --> 00:01:39,641 They have to take out loans in order to graduate. 44 00:01:39,683 --> 00:01:40,934 And now they're punished for it. 45 00:01:40,975 --> 00:01:42,352 - For doing the right thing, 46 00:01:43,395 --> 00:01:44,521 borrowing money for the right reason-- 47 00:01:44,562 --> 00:01:45,647 higher education. 48 00:01:45,689 --> 00:01:48,191 [tense music] 49 00:01:48,233 --> 00:01:50,860 - This is a story about how our basic bargain 50 00:01:50,902 --> 00:01:53,238 was broken by greed and politics. 51 00:01:53,279 --> 00:01:54,698 - There was two lines 52 00:01:54,739 --> 00:01:57,534 slipped in under the dark of night. 53 00:01:57,575 --> 00:01:59,619 - It wasn't until it was all over, you look back 54 00:01:59,661 --> 00:02:02,580 and say, oh, my God, two lines in the bill 55 00:02:02,622 --> 00:02:04,749 changed the lives of millions of Americans. 56 00:02:04,791 --> 00:02:07,794 - And my personal journey to uncover how student debt 57 00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:10,338 crushed the American dream. 58 00:02:10,380 --> 00:02:13,174 - This lending system has now catastrophically failed. 59 00:02:13,216 --> 00:02:15,677 - This thing has just spun out of control. 60 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:17,303 - I see you've got a whip in your hand. 61 00:02:17,345 --> 00:02:18,388 - This is not a whip. It's a flogger. 62 00:02:18,430 --> 00:02:19,764 - Oh, okay. 63 00:02:19,806 --> 00:02:21,641 And who was secretly behind it. 64 00:02:21,683 --> 00:02:22,642 - We are trying to figure out 65 00:02:22,684 --> 00:02:23,810 where it came from. - Who? 66 00:02:23,852 --> 00:02:25,478 - Nobody put their name on this one. 67 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,480 - Unraveling this political scandal 68 00:02:27,522 --> 00:02:28,857 would require listening... 69 00:02:28,898 --> 00:02:30,817 - Adults tell you, you have to go to college. 70 00:02:30,859 --> 00:02:32,652 - I did what I was supposed to do. 71 00:02:32,694 --> 00:02:33,820 - And it feels like somebody lied to you 72 00:02:33,862 --> 00:02:34,863 somewhere along the way. 73 00:02:34,904 --> 00:02:37,365 - Traveling the country... 74 00:02:37,407 --> 00:02:39,200 - Glad you showed up, man. 75 00:02:39,242 --> 00:02:41,661 - Tremendous focus... 76 00:02:41,703 --> 00:02:43,621 [whimsical chords] 77 00:02:43,663 --> 00:02:44,998 And steely determination. 78 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,458 - It is a problem. 79 00:02:46,499 --> 00:02:47,667 Did Congress even know what it was doing? 80 00:02:47,709 --> 00:02:49,294 - It's keeping me up at night. 81 00:02:49,336 --> 00:02:52,672 - This was a legislatively manufactured crisis. 82 00:02:52,714 --> 00:02:54,841 - This is a scam. 83 00:02:54,883 --> 00:02:57,927 - It's the greatest robbery in modern American life. 84 00:02:57,969 --> 00:03:00,972 [moody, heavy chords] 85 00:03:01,014 --> 00:03:04,601 * * 86 00:03:06,603 --> 00:03:09,773 [punchy music] 87 00:03:09,814 --> 00:03:13,818 - So how did this whole long saga begin? 88 00:03:13,860 --> 00:03:16,780 I worked for years in politics and journalism... 89 00:03:16,821 --> 00:03:17,906 - Here's Blake Zeff. 90 00:03:17,947 --> 00:03:19,741 He's a politics editor at salon.com. 91 00:03:19,783 --> 00:03:21,451 - And BuzzFeed contributor Blake Zeff. 92 00:03:21,493 --> 00:03:22,577 - He's a Washington insider 93 00:03:23,453 --> 00:03:23,912 who's worked for President Obama. 94 00:03:25,121 --> 00:03:25,580 - Blake, what can the president do on guns 95 00:03:26,873 --> 00:03:27,290 to give himself a point in the history books? 96 00:03:28,541 --> 00:03:28,583 - Well, I'll tell you the first thing is... 97 00:03:29,668 --> 00:03:29,918 But behind the confident demeanor 98 00:03:30,835 --> 00:03:33,380 and ill-fitting sport jackets, 99 00:03:33,421 --> 00:03:34,714 I had a secret. 100 00:03:34,756 --> 00:03:39,052 My wife Patty and I were almost $200,000 in debt. 101 00:03:39,094 --> 00:03:41,513 [baby cooing] 102 00:03:43,306 --> 00:03:45,600 What are you doing right now? - I'm going to pay my loans. 103 00:03:45,642 --> 00:03:47,268 I just got notice that they're due. 104 00:03:47,310 --> 00:03:48,561 - That's Patty. 105 00:03:48,603 --> 00:03:50,563 Like all of us, 106 00:03:50,605 --> 00:03:51,940 Patty has made a lot of decisions in life, 107 00:03:53,149 --> 00:03:54,609 and maybe not all of them showed great judgment. 108 00:03:56,820 --> 00:03:58,697 But deciding to become a psychologist 109 00:03:58,738 --> 00:04:01,825 to help veterans with PTSD seemed like a good one. 110 00:04:01,866 --> 00:04:03,076 - With graduate school, I thought, 111 00:04:03,118 --> 00:04:04,661 I'm going to graduate and be a doctor. 112 00:04:04,703 --> 00:04:06,371 I'll get a good job and make a lot of money 113 00:04:06,413 --> 00:04:08,665 and pay those off in no time. 114 00:04:08,707 --> 00:04:10,542 But I didn't understand 115 00:04:10,583 --> 00:04:12,585 that pretty much every penny I earned 116 00:04:12,627 --> 00:04:14,504 was going to be going to my student loans. 117 00:04:14,546 --> 00:04:16,715 I feel like I'm never going to catch up. 118 00:04:16,756 --> 00:04:18,758 - With four separate loans, 119 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,762 our total payment each month was nearly $2,000. 120 00:04:22,804 --> 00:04:25,390 But this isn't just about the numbers. 121 00:04:25,432 --> 00:04:27,600 - The loan companies are certainly evil 122 00:04:27,642 --> 00:04:29,853 and, you know, pull things all the time. 123 00:04:29,894 --> 00:04:32,480 Like, I was getting messages saying 124 00:04:32,522 --> 00:04:35,442 that I was delinquent in a student loan, and I wasn't. 125 00:04:35,483 --> 00:04:37,569 They make it really confusing. 126 00:04:37,610 --> 00:04:39,487 Like, every month, I have to read everything 127 00:04:39,529 --> 00:04:41,573 really thoroughly because I'm always suspicious 128 00:04:41,614 --> 00:04:43,575 that there's going to be some sort of hidden fee. 129 00:04:43,616 --> 00:04:46,786 - This whole system seemed really sketchy. 130 00:04:46,828 --> 00:04:48,455 - I feel like one of the lucky ones 131 00:04:48,496 --> 00:04:50,081 because I'm able to make my payments. 132 00:04:50,123 --> 00:04:52,959 But for some people with busier or harder lives than we have, 133 00:04:53,001 --> 00:04:54,544 it's so much worse. 134 00:04:55,712 --> 00:04:57,380 - Eventually, Patty had to leave the VA hospital 135 00:04:57,422 --> 00:04:58,840 and go into private practice 136 00:04:58,882 --> 00:05:01,009 just so we could keep up with the payments. 137 00:05:01,051 --> 00:05:03,928 - And it'll affect all of our kids, you know? 138 00:05:03,970 --> 00:05:06,806 None of us are saving for our kids' futures. 139 00:05:06,848 --> 00:05:08,433 You know, I thought about like, 140 00:05:08,475 --> 00:05:09,976 maybe it wasn't a great idea to have him. 141 00:05:10,018 --> 00:05:12,020 But I don't know. 142 00:05:12,062 --> 00:05:14,397 Fuck it. He's really cute. 143 00:05:15,899 --> 00:05:17,817 Right? 144 00:05:17,859 --> 00:05:19,402 - And we're lucky. 145 00:05:20,570 --> 00:05:22,489 We have good jobs and so many advantages in life. 146 00:05:22,530 --> 00:05:24,532 - Get some scholarships, kid. 147 00:05:24,574 --> 00:05:27,035 - But what about the 45 million other Americans 148 00:05:27,077 --> 00:05:28,912 with student debt? 149 00:05:28,953 --> 00:05:31,122 The news coverage was not encouraging. 150 00:05:32,540 --> 00:05:33,917 - Student loan debt in this country 151 00:05:33,958 --> 00:05:35,794 is now bigger than credit card debt. 152 00:05:35,835 --> 00:05:36,920 - And what does it do? 153 00:05:36,961 --> 00:05:38,129 It not only hurts these students. 154 00:05:38,171 --> 00:05:39,673 That's our number one concern. 155 00:05:39,714 --> 00:05:41,174 It kills the whole economy. 156 00:05:41,216 --> 00:05:42,676 - They're delaying having kids. 157 00:05:42,717 --> 00:05:44,010 They're delaying getting married. 158 00:05:44,052 --> 00:05:45,679 They're delaying buying houses. 159 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,097 - I think it's a crisis right now 160 00:05:47,138 --> 00:05:49,015 for families and student borrowers. 161 00:05:49,057 --> 00:05:51,017 - It wasn't just the borrowers. 162 00:05:51,059 --> 00:05:53,144 Economists and pundits across the political spectrum 163 00:05:53,186 --> 00:05:55,146 were warning this could have drastic effects 164 00:05:55,188 --> 00:05:56,523 on our economy. 165 00:05:56,564 --> 00:05:57,899 - For that is the student loan bubble. 166 00:05:57,941 --> 00:05:59,484 - Yeah, even him. 167 00:05:59,526 --> 00:06:01,778 - Down to $1.5 trillion and counting. 168 00:06:01,820 --> 00:06:02,987 - Crushing student debt. 169 00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:05,657 - Was there a story here? 170 00:06:05,699 --> 00:06:09,035 To find out, I did what any good journalist would. 171 00:06:09,077 --> 00:06:11,955 I Googled it in the middle of the night. 172 00:06:11,996 --> 00:06:15,208 Every opinion column, every quote in a news story, 173 00:06:15,250 --> 00:06:17,836 all came down to the same one expert, 174 00:06:17,877 --> 00:06:20,005 Alan Collinge-- 175 00:06:20,046 --> 00:06:22,632 one of the nation's foremost experts on student debt. 176 00:06:22,674 --> 00:06:25,176 This guy was everywhere... 177 00:06:25,218 --> 00:06:27,429 except an easy-to-visit location. 178 00:06:27,470 --> 00:06:31,516 [light music] 179 00:06:31,558 --> 00:06:35,145 * * 180 00:06:35,186 --> 00:06:38,648 Alan? - Hey, man, watch your step. 181 00:06:38,690 --> 00:06:40,692 - Yes. What is this, an ice storm? 182 00:06:40,734 --> 00:06:42,902 - Pretty much. Welcome to Wisconsin. 183 00:06:42,944 --> 00:06:45,739 North woods. - Thank you very much. 184 00:06:46,948 --> 00:06:48,491 - I hope you like cats. 185 00:06:48,533 --> 00:06:49,951 - Uh... 186 00:06:49,993 --> 00:06:51,745 - They're friendly. 187 00:06:51,786 --> 00:06:54,164 - Oh, yeah, I can smell them. 188 00:06:54,205 --> 00:06:58,043 - You know, I sprayed Lysol, but I don't think it worked. 189 00:06:58,084 --> 00:07:00,754 - So you've basically devoted your life to this problem. 190 00:07:00,795 --> 00:07:02,130 - I'm very sorry to say 191 00:07:02,172 --> 00:07:04,174 that appears to be how it turned out. 192 00:07:04,215 --> 00:07:07,844 It's become a 17-year ordeal, 193 00:07:07,886 --> 00:07:10,638 a journey. 194 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,141 - After accruing hundreds of thousands in student debt, 195 00:07:13,183 --> 00:07:15,769 Alan became obsessed with the issue. 196 00:07:15,810 --> 00:07:18,646 And before it was on the media's radar, 197 00:07:18,688 --> 00:07:21,524 he made raising awareness of it his life's work. 198 00:07:26,071 --> 00:07:28,531 But it turns out, trying to change 199 00:07:28,573 --> 00:07:32,077 an entire financial system can be a lonely fight. 200 00:07:32,118 --> 00:07:35,080 This is your family? - This is my family. Yep. 201 00:07:35,121 --> 00:07:36,915 - Were they aware of the work you were doing? 202 00:07:36,956 --> 00:07:38,208 Your parents? - Yeah. 203 00:07:38,249 --> 00:07:40,126 I like to think my parents instilled in me 204 00:07:40,168 --> 00:07:42,587 the spirit of the happy warrior. 205 00:07:42,629 --> 00:07:44,547 It helps me keep my chin up during some of the low times 206 00:07:44,589 --> 00:07:46,132 during this battle. 207 00:07:46,174 --> 00:07:48,093 - What would you say to this kid 208 00:07:48,134 --> 00:07:52,138 as you look at this younger version of yourself? 209 00:07:52,180 --> 00:07:53,264 - Oh, that's actually my brother, believe it or not. 210 00:07:53,306 --> 00:07:56,559 - Oh, okay. That's you? 211 00:07:56,601 --> 00:07:59,562 - Uh, that's also my brother. 212 00:07:59,604 --> 00:08:02,941 - Alan's devotion to this issue meant giving up a lot. 213 00:08:02,982 --> 00:08:04,609 - When I first started this, 214 00:08:04,651 --> 00:08:06,820 I had a good job in the defense industry. 215 00:08:06,861 --> 00:08:08,655 I had health care. I had a house. 216 00:08:08,697 --> 00:08:10,240 I had many things. 217 00:08:10,281 --> 00:08:12,534 I have none of those things today 218 00:08:12,575 --> 00:08:16,204 because I decided that the most useful thing 219 00:08:16,246 --> 00:08:18,164 that I could be doing with my life 220 00:08:18,206 --> 00:08:21,001 was fighting this battle. 221 00:08:21,042 --> 00:08:23,003 The lenders pull out all the stops 222 00:08:23,044 --> 00:08:24,713 against our best and brightest 223 00:08:24,754 --> 00:08:26,965 for the crime of going to college. 224 00:08:27,007 --> 00:08:30,135 This lending system has now catastrophically failed. 225 00:08:30,176 --> 00:08:32,554 It's galactically failed 226 00:08:32,595 --> 00:08:35,724 by all rational metrics and measures. 227 00:08:35,765 --> 00:08:40,311 We now owe close to $2 trillion 228 00:08:40,353 --> 00:08:43,148 in federal student loan debt. 229 00:08:43,189 --> 00:08:45,191 And you know, it seems like nobody's really even 230 00:08:45,233 --> 00:08:48,820 paying any attention to it, so... 231 00:08:48,862 --> 00:08:53,324 - Whoa. There was definitely a story here. 232 00:08:53,366 --> 00:08:56,161 But was Alan right about its magnitude 233 00:08:56,202 --> 00:08:58,121 and that no one was doing anything about it? 234 00:08:58,163 --> 00:08:59,831 - We're just gonna have to clear this whole area out, 235 00:08:59,873 --> 00:09:01,207 both tires. 236 00:09:01,249 --> 00:09:03,126 - It all seemed so outrageous. 237 00:09:03,168 --> 00:09:05,045 - Glad you showed up, man. 238 00:09:05,086 --> 00:09:06,671 - Sure. 239 00:09:06,713 --> 00:09:09,674 And honestly, so did Alan. 240 00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:16,639 Meet Jerome. 241 00:09:16,681 --> 00:09:18,350 He's the chair of the Federal Reserve, 242 00:09:18,391 --> 00:09:20,185 which is a fancy way of saying 243 00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:24,898 his job is to make sure the economy doesn't suck. 244 00:09:24,939 --> 00:09:26,316 A Republican appointee, 245 00:09:26,608 --> 00:09:29,027 Jerome is not known for his bleeding heart 246 00:09:29,069 --> 00:09:31,321 or stirring oratory. 247 00:09:31,363 --> 00:09:33,406 - We're not on a sustainable fiscal path. 248 00:09:33,448 --> 00:09:34,741 We need to get on one. 249 00:09:34,783 --> 00:09:36,242 - But on student debt, 250 00:09:36,284 --> 00:09:38,244 Jerome has been surprisingly forthcoming. 251 00:09:38,286 --> 00:09:41,081 - In your view, does the high level of student debt 252 00:09:41,122 --> 00:09:43,083 create a drag on the economy? 253 00:09:43,124 --> 00:09:44,918 - As student loan continues to grow 254 00:09:44,959 --> 00:09:46,711 and becomes larger and larger, 255 00:09:46,753 --> 00:09:48,922 then it absolutely could hold back growth. 256 00:09:48,963 --> 00:09:50,340 - That's the key. 257 00:09:50,382 --> 00:09:53,093 It's hard to tell from his Jerome-like delivery, 258 00:09:53,134 --> 00:09:54,886 but "hold back growth" 259 00:09:54,928 --> 00:09:56,805 is literally his nightmare scenario. 260 00:09:56,846 --> 00:09:59,265 - If our college debt were a country, 261 00:09:59,307 --> 00:10:01,434 it would be the eighth wealthiest 262 00:10:01,476 --> 00:10:03,436 country in the world. 263 00:10:03,478 --> 00:10:05,397 - This is Kevin Connell. 264 00:10:05,438 --> 00:10:07,691 After falling into almost $100,000 265 00:10:07,732 --> 00:10:10,902 of student debt of his own, he wrote two books 266 00:10:10,944 --> 00:10:13,321 exposing the corruption of the student debt system, 267 00:10:13,363 --> 00:10:15,865 all by the time he was just 21. 268 00:10:15,907 --> 00:10:17,659 In one word, how would you describe 269 00:10:17,701 --> 00:10:19,452 the student debt system? - Predatory. 270 00:10:19,494 --> 00:10:21,037 - Why? 271 00:10:21,079 --> 00:10:22,956 - Because of the conditioning students face 272 00:10:22,997 --> 00:10:25,125 their entire lives, saying you must go to college 273 00:10:25,166 --> 00:10:26,835 in order to be successful. 274 00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:28,294 People are willing to pay whatever 275 00:10:28,336 --> 00:10:30,005 it takes to go to college. 276 00:10:30,046 --> 00:10:32,132 - And prominent economists agree. 277 00:10:32,173 --> 00:10:35,969 As an economist, the prominent economist that you are... 278 00:10:36,011 --> 00:10:37,303 - Shoot me up good. 279 00:10:37,345 --> 00:10:38,888 [overlapping chatter] - Get it! 280 00:10:38,930 --> 00:10:40,765 The prominent economist that you are, 281 00:10:40,807 --> 00:10:42,142 how big of a problem would you say this is? 282 00:10:42,183 --> 00:10:44,477 - Oh, it's an immoral problem. 283 00:10:44,519 --> 00:10:46,980 We impose this upon our young people. 284 00:10:47,022 --> 00:10:48,898 It's a narrative where we tell them, 285 00:10:48,940 --> 00:10:50,942 go to school, better yourself. 286 00:10:50,984 --> 00:10:52,777 College is the key to your mobility. 287 00:10:52,819 --> 00:10:55,989 But as a young person, 17, 18 years old, 288 00:10:56,031 --> 00:10:57,907 are they making an authentic choice? 289 00:10:57,949 --> 00:10:59,993 - Well, I feel like I've done everything right. 290 00:11:00,035 --> 00:11:02,829 Growing up, you know, I'm being told, go to school, work hard, 291 00:11:02,871 --> 00:11:04,372 you can do whatever you want, 292 00:11:04,414 --> 00:11:05,957 and you can have whatever you want. 293 00:11:05,999 --> 00:11:08,835 And it's kinda like, okay, um... 294 00:11:08,877 --> 00:11:10,879 you know, I'm 31. What happened here? 295 00:11:12,797 --> 00:11:14,341 - I talked to people from different communities 296 00:11:14,382 --> 00:11:16,343 across the country to see how student debt 297 00:11:16,384 --> 00:11:17,886 had affected them. 298 00:11:17,927 --> 00:11:19,721 - Adults would tell you... 299 00:11:19,763 --> 00:11:21,890 you have to go to college. 300 00:11:21,931 --> 00:11:23,183 Like, a college degree would mean 301 00:11:23,224 --> 00:11:24,809 getting a good-paying job. 302 00:11:24,851 --> 00:11:26,311 And then you buy a house and you 303 00:11:26,353 --> 00:11:27,937 live the life that you want. 304 00:11:27,979 --> 00:11:30,815 You know, it seems silly to imagine that now. 305 00:11:33,777 --> 00:11:36,237 - I served eight years in the United States Air Force. 306 00:11:36,279 --> 00:11:39,366 And it's kind of like, I did what I was supposed to do. 307 00:11:39,407 --> 00:11:40,992 I contributed to my country. 308 00:11:41,034 --> 00:11:43,119 And yet, student loans put me in debt 309 00:11:43,161 --> 00:11:46,039 that I thought would be avoided by joining the military. 310 00:11:46,081 --> 00:11:47,957 - They all did what they were supposed to 311 00:11:47,999 --> 00:11:51,252 and thought they were achieving the American dream. 312 00:11:51,294 --> 00:11:53,129 What does the American dream mean to you? 313 00:11:53,171 --> 00:11:54,422 Is that a thing? 314 00:11:54,464 --> 00:11:56,174 - The American dream now 315 00:11:56,216 --> 00:11:59,052 is to have zero dollars, for a lot of people. 316 00:11:59,094 --> 00:12:01,930 I mean, so many people have negative net worth. 317 00:12:01,971 --> 00:12:03,890 - But if you can't reach that American dream 318 00:12:03,932 --> 00:12:06,226 of having zero dollars, don't worry. 319 00:12:06,267 --> 00:12:08,019 The media has your back. 320 00:12:08,061 --> 00:12:10,313 - Almost 1/3 of all college students 321 00:12:10,355 --> 00:12:11,898 are using their student loans to pay 322 00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:13,400 for their spring break trips. 323 00:12:13,441 --> 00:12:15,026 - It's important for them to learn this lesson early on 324 00:12:15,068 --> 00:12:16,861 of personal responsibility. 325 00:12:16,903 --> 00:12:18,780 - Pull yourselves up by your bootstraps. 326 00:12:18,822 --> 00:12:20,240 - These are adults we're talking about. 327 00:12:20,281 --> 00:12:22,075 And they need to realize that when they take out debt 328 00:12:22,117 --> 00:12:24,077 that they are liable to repay that debt. 329 00:12:24,119 --> 00:12:27,163 - Someone might say, listen, you took out a loan. 330 00:12:27,205 --> 00:12:28,915 You pay it back. It's simple. 331 00:12:28,957 --> 00:12:31,001 Like, don't be irresponsible. What do you say to that? 332 00:12:31,042 --> 00:12:33,920 - I think I would have said that totally makes sense 333 00:12:33,962 --> 00:12:36,423 eight years ago when I was 17. 334 00:12:36,464 --> 00:12:38,258 - Let's not forget. 335 00:12:38,299 --> 00:12:40,176 These are kids being told to sign on the dotted line. 336 00:12:40,218 --> 00:12:42,262 No parental consent necessary. 337 00:12:42,303 --> 00:12:44,848 - My 17-year-old self was very unprepared 338 00:12:44,889 --> 00:12:46,933 for all of those details. 339 00:12:46,975 --> 00:12:50,353 - But some in the media say that's no excuse. 340 00:12:50,395 --> 00:12:52,397 - The students knew exactly what they were getting into. 341 00:12:52,439 --> 00:12:54,524 - You knew what you were getting into. 342 00:12:54,816 --> 00:12:56,818 When someone says that, they don't get it. 343 00:12:56,860 --> 00:12:58,028 - Most people don't know what they're 344 00:12:58,069 --> 00:12:59,487 actually signing up for. 345 00:12:59,529 --> 00:13:01,906 There's a whole series of gimmicks played 346 00:13:01,948 --> 00:13:04,617 in the industry that attempt to cloud 347 00:13:04,659 --> 00:13:06,494 what the actual picture looks like. 348 00:13:06,536 --> 00:13:08,413 - The lenders become very creative in how 349 00:13:08,455 --> 00:13:10,498 they can inflate a loan. 350 00:13:10,540 --> 00:13:13,126 - What they do is, they give you the teaser rate to start. 351 00:13:13,168 --> 00:13:14,961 It's artificially low. 352 00:13:15,003 --> 00:13:16,338 - That's right. 353 00:13:16,379 --> 00:13:17,964 College lenders are using the classic 354 00:13:18,006 --> 00:13:20,258 "first one's free" move, used on everything 355 00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:23,470 from streaming services to cocaine-- 356 00:13:23,511 --> 00:13:25,889 or so I'm told. 357 00:13:25,930 --> 00:13:28,224 But that's not the only trick up their sleeve. 358 00:13:28,266 --> 00:13:30,852 - It's a lot of fine print. It's overwhelming. 359 00:13:30,894 --> 00:13:33,063 - Maybe you make an underpayment one month, 360 00:13:33,104 --> 00:13:35,523 and they pyramid your fees until you don't notice. 361 00:13:35,565 --> 00:13:38,568 - If you end up defaulting, your wages can be garnished. 362 00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:40,278 They can come in and just say, nope. 363 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:42,489 We're taking 15% of your wages without any sort 364 00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:44,074 of due process at all. 365 00:13:44,115 --> 00:13:46,076 They do the same thing with Social Security. 366 00:13:46,117 --> 00:13:49,204 - So if you're a teenager signing the papers, 367 00:13:49,245 --> 00:13:50,997 why don't you listen to the adults in the room 368 00:13:51,039 --> 00:13:52,374 who were there to guide you? 369 00:13:52,415 --> 00:13:54,417 Remember your guidance counselor, 370 00:13:54,459 --> 00:13:58,338 how they reeked of coffee and pretended to know your name? 371 00:13:58,380 --> 00:14:02,092 - I truly don't think guidance counselors, my parents, 372 00:14:02,133 --> 00:14:03,885 family, I don't know anyone 373 00:14:03,927 --> 00:14:09,182 that understood the true detriment. 374 00:14:09,224 --> 00:14:12,143 - Okay, Blake, come and bring me that banana. 375 00:14:12,185 --> 00:14:15,230 Stick the banana right in between the foot. 376 00:14:15,271 --> 00:14:16,523 - Like this? - Yes. 377 00:14:16,564 --> 00:14:18,024 Position at the other way. 378 00:14:18,066 --> 00:14:20,110 - Oh. Like this? - Right. 379 00:14:20,151 --> 00:14:22,195 But make sure there's nothing else in the background, 380 00:14:22,237 --> 00:14:23,363 that you just see feet and banana. 381 00:14:23,405 --> 00:14:25,156 - How's that? 382 00:14:28,493 --> 00:14:31,246 The real reason I came to see Marcella? 383 00:14:31,287 --> 00:14:33,748 Her daughter's student debt was so out of control 384 00:14:33,790 --> 00:14:35,542 she was running an active business 385 00:14:35,583 --> 00:14:39,587 creating erotic videos to help pay it off. 386 00:14:39,629 --> 00:14:42,132 - Every day I wake up, the purpose of my day 387 00:14:42,173 --> 00:14:44,426 is to make sure my children have a better life. 388 00:14:44,467 --> 00:14:46,720 With my oldest daughter, I did prepare 389 00:14:46,761 --> 00:14:49,556 for the first four years of college with her. 390 00:14:49,597 --> 00:14:51,599 I started when she was in kindergarten. 391 00:14:51,641 --> 00:14:53,143 I was very young when I had her. 392 00:14:53,184 --> 00:14:55,520 I did not know she was going to go on for her masters. 393 00:14:55,562 --> 00:14:57,230 I wasn't prepared for that. 394 00:14:57,272 --> 00:15:00,191 I did not know she was gonna want to go to law school. 395 00:15:00,233 --> 00:15:02,527 But when she told me about it, I just encouraged her. 396 00:15:02,569 --> 00:15:05,113 Yes, okay, great. What do you need to do? 397 00:15:05,155 --> 00:15:06,698 - What Marcella's daughter needed to do 398 00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:09,325 was take out a $46,000 loan. 399 00:15:09,367 --> 00:15:12,162 - I'm trying to work as hard as I can. 400 00:15:12,203 --> 00:15:14,539 Because then after she finishes, 401 00:15:14,581 --> 00:15:18,460 it's gonna be over $200,000. 402 00:15:18,501 --> 00:15:20,128 - Wait a minute. 403 00:15:20,170 --> 00:15:22,380 Marcella started out with a $46,000 loan 404 00:15:22,422 --> 00:15:25,258 and now it's $200,000? 405 00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:27,093 - Most of my salary is going into paying off 406 00:15:27,135 --> 00:15:29,179 my student loans right now. 407 00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:32,349 But even with that, after four years of residency, 408 00:15:32,390 --> 00:15:35,477 I'm gonna basically be in $50,000 more debt. 409 00:15:35,518 --> 00:15:37,062 - I've talked to people where they say, 410 00:15:37,103 --> 00:15:40,065 I've been paying my student loans for years. 411 00:15:40,106 --> 00:15:41,191 I've been making all my payments. 412 00:15:41,232 --> 00:15:42,650 I've been doing it on time. 413 00:15:42,692 --> 00:15:45,779 And yet, I owe more now than I did at the beginning. 414 00:15:45,820 --> 00:15:48,156 What is that? 415 00:15:48,198 --> 00:15:51,201 - That is the phenomenon of compounding interest. 416 00:15:51,242 --> 00:15:53,370 - Okay, let's stop here for a second, 417 00:15:53,411 --> 00:15:55,121 because compounding interest can be 418 00:15:55,163 --> 00:15:56,664 pretty tricky to understand. 419 00:15:56,706 --> 00:15:58,792 Here's what you need to know. 420 00:15:58,833 --> 00:16:01,878 While most loans make you pay a small amount of interest, 421 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,256 compounding interest charges you interest on interest, 422 00:16:05,298 --> 00:16:07,425 making your balance grow exponentially 423 00:16:07,467 --> 00:16:10,345 and quickly get out of control. 424 00:16:10,387 --> 00:16:12,806 - If I were the only person with student debt, 425 00:16:12,847 --> 00:16:16,476 I may say, you know, gosh, I really messed up here. 426 00:16:16,518 --> 00:16:18,895 But then when it gets to, like, 45 million people, 427 00:16:18,937 --> 00:16:20,563 you're like, okay, maybe this is systemic. 428 00:16:20,605 --> 00:16:22,816 Maybe this isn't just a couple of people 429 00:16:23,108 --> 00:16:24,567 who made bad decisions. 430 00:16:24,609 --> 00:16:29,239 Maybe this is actually an orchestrated scam. 431 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,159 - I'm convinced that the system was rigged 432 00:16:33,201 --> 00:16:36,413 to create the very crisis that we're in today. 433 00:16:36,454 --> 00:16:39,416 - That's when I learned about a piece of this puzzle 434 00:16:39,457 --> 00:16:43,586 that got very little attention but would change everything. 435 00:16:43,628 --> 00:16:48,425 If you could point to one thing about the student debt system, 436 00:16:48,466 --> 00:16:50,885 one thing you would change, what would it be? 437 00:16:50,927 --> 00:16:53,555 - Bankruptcy. 438 00:16:53,596 --> 00:16:55,265 - What do you mean? 439 00:16:55,306 --> 00:16:57,726 - It is for all intents, impossible to discharge 440 00:16:57,767 --> 00:16:59,811 student loans in bankruptcy. 441 00:16:59,853 --> 00:17:01,187 - Wait, I thought that all debts 442 00:17:01,229 --> 00:17:03,189 could be discharged in bankruptcy. 443 00:17:03,231 --> 00:17:04,858 - Except for student loans. 444 00:17:04,899 --> 00:17:10,363 In 1998, they essentially took bankruptcy protections 445 00:17:10,405 --> 00:17:14,659 permanently away for all time from federal student loans. 446 00:17:16,327 --> 00:17:19,164 - Could this be true? 447 00:17:19,205 --> 00:17:21,624 And isn't bankruptcy a bad thing? 448 00:17:21,666 --> 00:17:23,460 I think the first time I heard the word "bankrupt" 449 00:17:23,501 --> 00:17:25,920 was from watching "Wheel of Fortune." 450 00:17:25,962 --> 00:17:28,298 The audience goes, aw, and you lose all your money. 451 00:17:28,340 --> 00:17:30,633 And I just assumed that's something I don't want. 452 00:17:30,675 --> 00:17:34,262 - Well, I've had many clients, post-bankruptcy, 453 00:17:34,304 --> 00:17:37,557 go on to buy houses, which they've never been able to do. 454 00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:41,227 I've had two clients actually become multimillionaires. 455 00:17:41,269 --> 00:17:42,645 - How hard would it be for me to discharge 456 00:17:42,687 --> 00:17:43,938 my student loan debt through bankruptcy? 457 00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:46,358 - It's impossible. 458 00:17:46,399 --> 00:17:48,234 - I guess bankruptcy is reserved only 459 00:17:48,276 --> 00:17:51,488 for the truly neediest cases. 460 00:17:51,529 --> 00:17:53,198 All right, to be fair, 461 00:17:53,239 --> 00:17:54,532 they do deserve a fresh start... 462 00:17:56,576 --> 00:17:58,411 Mostly. 463 00:17:58,453 --> 00:18:00,914 But student borrowers deserve that option too. 464 00:18:00,955 --> 00:18:02,499 Now that doesn't mean everyone's 465 00:18:02,540 --> 00:18:04,209 going to run out and file bankruptcy, 466 00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:05,919 or that they even should. 467 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,630 There's something much bigger at play here. 468 00:18:08,672 --> 00:18:12,342 - In the absence of the threat of bankruptcy, 469 00:18:12,384 --> 00:18:15,595 you open the door for widespread abuse 470 00:18:15,637 --> 00:18:17,347 by the lenders. 471 00:18:17,389 --> 00:18:19,224 - Without bankruptcy as an option, 472 00:18:19,265 --> 00:18:21,685 college lenders now frivolously lend out 473 00:18:21,726 --> 00:18:25,689 as much money as they can to anybody who wants to apply 474 00:18:25,730 --> 00:18:28,400 because repayment is guaranteed. 475 00:18:28,441 --> 00:18:29,943 It's up to the student to pay it back no matter what. 476 00:18:29,984 --> 00:18:32,278 There is no bankruptcy option. 477 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,865 - The lenders know you can't run, you can't hide. 478 00:18:35,907 --> 00:18:38,952 So this essentially gives them a license to steal. 479 00:18:38,993 --> 00:18:41,705 - When lenders have no incentives to restrict 480 00:18:41,746 --> 00:18:44,666 who they're lending to or how much to loan out, 481 00:18:44,708 --> 00:18:46,793 guess what happens to tuition costs? 482 00:18:46,835 --> 00:18:49,796 - The colleges raised their price, 483 00:18:49,838 --> 00:18:52,007 essentially at will. 484 00:18:52,048 --> 00:18:54,509 - And you're paying for it. And college lenders know that. 485 00:18:54,551 --> 00:18:57,303 So the more obscene the tuition, 486 00:18:57,345 --> 00:19:00,724 and the more ridiculous the gimmicks that colleges play, 487 00:19:00,765 --> 00:19:03,727 the richer college lenders become. 488 00:19:03,768 --> 00:19:06,938 - So just having the threat of bankruptcy 489 00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:11,484 forces the lenders to behave rationally 490 00:19:11,526 --> 00:19:13,653 and with a modicum of good faith. 491 00:19:13,695 --> 00:19:16,031 - And without those bankruptcy protections, 492 00:19:16,072 --> 00:19:17,657 we're left with a self-perpetuating 493 00:19:17,699 --> 00:19:19,868 system of greed. 494 00:19:19,909 --> 00:19:21,578 - You know, from the outset, 495 00:19:21,619 --> 00:19:25,040 this was a legislatively manufactured crisis. 496 00:19:25,081 --> 00:19:27,417 - It was the 1998 reauthorization 497 00:19:27,459 --> 00:19:28,960 of the Higher Education Act. 498 00:19:29,002 --> 00:19:30,920 - The Senate will now vote on the adoption 499 00:19:30,962 --> 00:19:33,798 of the conference report accompanying HR-6. 500 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,801 - Mr. Biden, Mr. Bingaman, Mr. Durbin, 501 00:19:36,843 --> 00:19:39,512 Mr. Feingold, Mrs. Feinstein, Mr. Ford... 502 00:19:39,554 --> 00:19:41,389 - Was there, like, an uproar when this happened? 503 00:19:41,431 --> 00:19:43,391 Was this, like, a big headline at the time? 504 00:19:43,433 --> 00:19:45,060 - There was no headline. 505 00:19:45,101 --> 00:19:48,813 In fact, I don't think most congressmen even knew 506 00:19:48,855 --> 00:19:50,565 that it happened until probably weeks, months, 507 00:19:50,607 --> 00:19:52,442 or maybe even years afterwards. 508 00:19:52,484 --> 00:19:55,111 - The bill I will sign in a few moments 509 00:19:55,153 --> 00:19:58,615 will enhance the economic strength of America. 510 00:19:58,656 --> 00:20:02,952 - They did this massive change to the economy 511 00:20:02,994 --> 00:20:06,331 that would affect all these people, and no one noticed? 512 00:20:06,373 --> 00:20:08,875 - It was very sneaky what they did. 513 00:20:08,917 --> 00:20:12,045 It was two lines slipped in, in conference committee 514 00:20:12,087 --> 00:20:14,464 under the dark of night. 515 00:20:14,506 --> 00:20:16,091 - There it is... 516 00:20:16,132 --> 00:20:18,551 the two lines of legal mumbo jumbo 517 00:20:18,593 --> 00:20:21,638 that would alter the economy for multiple generations, 518 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,598 almost entirely. 519 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,141 - Technically, the bankruptcy code 520 00:20:25,183 --> 00:20:28,978 says if it represents an undue hardship, 521 00:20:29,020 --> 00:20:30,980 you can get a discharge. 522 00:20:31,022 --> 00:20:33,400 - Undue hardship? [chuckles] 523 00:20:33,441 --> 00:20:35,068 That shouldn't be too hard to prove. 524 00:20:35,110 --> 00:20:37,821 - Well, the courts have interpreted that saying 525 00:20:37,862 --> 00:20:40,532 that means there's no hope of repaying. 526 00:20:40,573 --> 00:20:41,908 - What do you mean there's supposed to be no hope? 527 00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:44,452 - They have to have such a condition 528 00:20:44,494 --> 00:20:47,831 you'd never want to have to get the student loan discharged. 529 00:20:47,872 --> 00:20:49,874 - What do you mean? What kind of condition? 530 00:20:49,916 --> 00:20:53,670 - Well, they might have serious cancer, physical disabilities. 531 00:20:53,712 --> 00:20:55,005 - So let me understand this. 532 00:20:55,046 --> 00:20:57,382 The way to get rid of student debt 533 00:20:57,424 --> 00:21:00,427 right now is to have cancer? That's probably the best way? 534 00:21:00,468 --> 00:21:03,054 - Well, unfortunately, that would be a help. 535 00:21:03,096 --> 00:21:04,848 - Okay. 536 00:21:04,889 --> 00:21:08,643 Who is responsible for this craziness? 537 00:21:08,685 --> 00:21:12,564 - There's no name that I can find attached to who did it. 538 00:21:12,605 --> 00:21:14,858 Nobody seems to be willing to step up 539 00:21:14,899 --> 00:21:16,192 and take the credit for it. 540 00:21:16,234 --> 00:21:18,028 - Wait, wait, wait. 541 00:21:18,069 --> 00:21:19,904 Nobody put their name to it? 542 00:21:19,946 --> 00:21:21,031 We don't--we don't actually know who did this? 543 00:21:21,072 --> 00:21:22,407 - No. 544 00:21:22,449 --> 00:21:23,700 It's like a whisper in the wind. 545 00:21:23,742 --> 00:21:25,577 I don't know. 546 00:21:25,618 --> 00:21:28,121 - This is something that bears repeating. 547 00:21:28,163 --> 00:21:31,583 According to Alan, everything from ballooning student debt 548 00:21:31,624 --> 00:21:33,918 to spiraling college costs can be traced back 549 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:35,879 to this one, two-line provision 550 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,756 in a 1998 law. 551 00:21:37,797 --> 00:21:39,799 And no one knows who's responsible for it. 552 00:21:39,841 --> 00:21:40,967 What? 553 00:21:41,009 --> 00:21:42,719 - I would like to know who slipped 554 00:21:42,761 --> 00:21:44,471 these two lines into that bill that 555 00:21:44,512 --> 00:21:46,598 took bankruptcy uniquely away. 556 00:21:46,639 --> 00:21:50,060 I think that is the $2 trillion question. 557 00:21:50,101 --> 00:21:55,190 And I think that person needs to do something to make good. 558 00:21:55,482 --> 00:21:58,151 - We now had a whodunit on our hands 559 00:21:58,193 --> 00:22:01,738 and a mission right in my wheelhouse. 560 00:22:01,780 --> 00:22:04,157 I would find and confront the person responsible 561 00:22:04,199 --> 00:22:10,830 and demand they help me get this disastrous law changed. 562 00:22:10,872 --> 00:22:13,208 That would mean going back to when the fateful provision 563 00:22:13,249 --> 00:22:14,876 was passed. 564 00:22:14,918 --> 00:22:17,337 The year was 1998. 565 00:22:17,379 --> 00:22:19,047 - The Yankees have done it again. 566 00:22:19,089 --> 00:22:21,883 - The Yankees had just won the World Series. 567 00:22:21,925 --> 00:22:24,344 John Glenn had just returned to space... 568 00:22:24,386 --> 00:22:25,804 - NBC's science correspondent... 569 00:22:26,888 --> 00:22:27,681 - And an important scientific breakthrough 570 00:22:28,264 --> 00:22:29,099 was just announced. 571 00:22:30,433 --> 00:22:31,893 - Mike Byerly was one of the more than 4,000 men 572 00:22:33,478 --> 00:22:34,688 who volunteered for the trials of the anti-impotence drug 573 00:22:34,729 --> 00:22:36,189 called Viagra. 574 00:22:36,231 --> 00:22:39,275 He was very satisfied with the results. 575 00:22:39,317 --> 00:22:40,985 - Speaking of tireless stallions 576 00:22:41,027 --> 00:22:42,654 who just won't slow down... 577 00:22:42,696 --> 00:22:45,615 - Steve Kornacki, who has gotten some rest, 578 00:22:45,657 --> 00:22:47,617 is back at the Big Board tonight. 579 00:22:47,659 --> 00:22:49,619 - MSNBC's Steve Kornacki is not just 580 00:22:49,661 --> 00:22:51,996 the master of the Election Night Big Board 581 00:22:52,038 --> 00:22:53,915 or a khaki pants icon. 582 00:22:53,957 --> 00:22:56,042 He's also an expert in '90s politics. 583 00:22:56,084 --> 00:22:57,794 - Good to see you. Cheers. - Hey, any time, Blake. 584 00:22:57,836 --> 00:22:59,587 Maybe he'd have some clues for me. 585 00:22:59,629 --> 00:23:02,382 This--this bill was signed in by Clinton in October of '98. 586 00:23:02,424 --> 00:23:04,884 What's going on in his world at that time? 587 00:23:04,926 --> 00:23:07,846 - So Bill Clinton wanted to get things done in 1998. 588 00:23:07,887 --> 00:23:10,181 I mean, every president wants to get things done. 589 00:23:10,223 --> 00:23:12,225 But Bill Clinton had a particular imperative to 590 00:23:12,267 --> 00:23:14,310 because of impeachment. 591 00:23:14,352 --> 00:23:18,106 The Clinton strategy in 1998 was to say, 592 00:23:18,148 --> 00:23:22,944 this whole thing with Monica Lewinsky was a personal thing. 593 00:23:22,986 --> 00:23:24,738 And what I'm trying to do as president 594 00:23:24,779 --> 00:23:27,615 is the business of the people. 595 00:23:27,657 --> 00:23:30,827 He was doing the business of the American people 596 00:23:30,869 --> 00:23:32,746 as everybody else in the political world 597 00:23:32,787 --> 00:23:34,039 was focused on his personal life. 598 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,041 - Okay. Pretty good headlines, right, 599 00:23:36,082 --> 00:23:37,917 like, "Clinton signs a higher education bill." 600 00:23:37,959 --> 00:23:39,753 it sounds like Clinton just wanted to have 601 00:23:39,794 --> 00:23:41,755 a nice happy press release so he could 602 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:43,757 change the topic a little bit instead of talking 603 00:23:43,798 --> 00:23:45,091 about the problems he's having. 604 00:23:45,133 --> 00:23:47,385 - Yeah, and I think that the second piece of it 605 00:23:47,427 --> 00:23:50,096 is bipartisan, because it wasn't 606 00:23:50,138 --> 00:23:51,931 just looming impeachment. 607 00:23:51,973 --> 00:23:53,141 The other thing that he was facing 608 00:23:53,183 --> 00:23:55,226 was the midterm election a month later. 609 00:23:55,268 --> 00:23:56,770 And those things were linked. - Right. 610 00:23:56,811 --> 00:23:59,230 - So the idea that a month before the election 611 00:23:59,272 --> 00:24:01,024 you could sign a bipartisan piece of legislation, 612 00:24:01,066 --> 00:24:03,234 just the optics of that, as they say, right, 613 00:24:03,276 --> 00:24:05,028 are going to look good to a lot of people 614 00:24:05,070 --> 00:24:07,113 on both sides. - Right. Okay. 615 00:24:07,155 --> 00:24:10,033 Do you, expert, 1990's politics guy, Steve Kornacki, 616 00:24:10,075 --> 00:24:15,121 have any guess or insight into who might have inserted 617 00:24:15,163 --> 00:24:16,873 this provision into that 1998 bill, 618 00:24:16,915 --> 00:24:19,334 because we're trying to figure this out? 619 00:24:19,376 --> 00:24:20,752 Could you even hazard a guess? 620 00:24:20,794 --> 00:24:22,212 - I have no idea. 621 00:24:22,253 --> 00:24:23,296 But I think you're asking a good question-- 622 00:24:23,338 --> 00:24:24,923 how did we get here? - Yeah. 623 00:24:24,964 --> 00:24:28,218 - Because it was not on anybody's radar back then. 624 00:24:28,259 --> 00:24:32,931 - Even '90s politics expert Steve Kornacki doesn't know? 625 00:24:32,972 --> 00:24:34,474 Well, in his defense... 626 00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:36,309 Be honest with me. 627 00:24:36,351 --> 00:24:38,395 Is it hard to describe things without the use of a big board? 628 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:40,980 - [laughs] It's freeing. 629 00:24:41,022 --> 00:24:42,440 I like the air outside the studio 630 00:24:42,482 --> 00:24:44,859 a little bit, too, I think, you know? 631 00:24:44,901 --> 00:24:47,696 - Maybe I just needed to talk to someone who was in the room 632 00:24:47,737 --> 00:24:49,823 when the bill was written. 633 00:24:49,864 --> 00:24:51,408 A longtime aid to Ted Kennedy... 634 00:24:51,449 --> 00:24:53,034 - Hey, how are you? 635 00:24:53,076 --> 00:24:54,577 - Jane actually helped write the bill. 636 00:24:54,619 --> 00:24:57,247 Are you ready to talk about the 1998 Higher Education Act? 637 00:24:57,288 --> 00:25:00,000 - Wow. Am I? 638 00:25:00,041 --> 00:25:01,501 - Surely she could point me to who did it. 639 00:25:01,543 --> 00:25:02,877 - It'll be fun. 640 00:25:02,919 --> 00:25:04,504 - I can't guarantee that. 641 00:25:04,546 --> 00:25:06,840 Please don't put that kind of pressure on me. 642 00:25:06,881 --> 00:25:09,843 So there must have been a lot of good stuff in this bill 643 00:25:09,884 --> 00:25:13,138 because it passed unanimously. 644 00:25:13,179 --> 00:25:15,181 What are some of the highlights about the bill that you're 645 00:25:15,223 --> 00:25:16,474 maybe most proud of? 646 00:25:16,516 --> 00:25:18,351 - So I love Title II. 647 00:25:18,393 --> 00:25:20,520 I mean, as a recovering teacher myself... 648 00:25:20,562 --> 00:25:22,063 - Jane's going to get pretty deep 649 00:25:22,105 --> 00:25:23,857 into technical jargon here. 650 00:25:23,898 --> 00:25:26,192 - And we thought SFA should be a PBO. 651 00:25:26,234 --> 00:25:28,820 - But the takeaway is that there were a lot of programs 652 00:25:28,862 --> 00:25:30,030 that helped teachers... 653 00:25:30,071 --> 00:25:31,322 - Additional professional development... 654 00:25:31,364 --> 00:25:32,615 - And kids. 655 00:25:32,657 --> 00:25:34,868 And they were smart about a bunch of things. 656 00:25:34,909 --> 00:25:37,996 - In 1998, nobody was thinking about distance learning. 657 00:25:38,038 --> 00:25:39,789 - But... 658 00:25:39,831 --> 00:25:42,042 All right, I'm gonna ask you about one particular provision 659 00:25:42,083 --> 00:25:44,002 that some feel has not aged well. 660 00:25:44,044 --> 00:25:45,503 - Okay. - Okay? 661 00:25:45,545 --> 00:25:49,466 Two lines were inserted into that multi-hundred-page bill 662 00:25:49,507 --> 00:25:51,968 that made it so that federal student loans cannot be 663 00:25:52,010 --> 00:25:55,138 discharged through bankruptcy, making it basically 664 00:25:55,180 --> 00:25:56,389 one of the only debts that you cannot 665 00:25:56,431 --> 00:25:57,932 get rid of through bankruptcy. 666 00:26:01,227 --> 00:26:04,564 - So now you're going to get into the weeds 667 00:26:04,606 --> 00:26:07,901 of the sausage-making that is legislation. 668 00:26:07,942 --> 00:26:09,235 You know, you have to separate sometimes, 669 00:26:09,277 --> 00:26:10,570 when you're working on the Hill, 670 00:26:10,612 --> 00:26:13,114 this is what I feel personally, and this is 671 00:26:13,156 --> 00:26:14,949 what I have to do as part of my job. 672 00:26:14,991 --> 00:26:17,535 Personally, I think it's-- it's crazy 673 00:26:17,577 --> 00:26:19,496 that you can't discharge your student loans. 674 00:26:19,537 --> 00:26:22,791 I mean, I think it was something 675 00:26:22,832 --> 00:26:27,295 that was pushed out of control by somebody's misperception. 676 00:26:27,337 --> 00:26:29,005 - Any idea who did it? 677 00:26:29,047 --> 00:26:31,257 - I don't know who, so I don't want to pretend I know. 678 00:26:31,299 --> 00:26:36,096 Some member had an idea that there was fraud 679 00:26:36,137 --> 00:26:38,306 and bad acting going on, 680 00:26:38,348 --> 00:26:39,933 that people were just going to school 681 00:26:39,974 --> 00:26:42,477 and racking up debt and living high on the hog 682 00:26:42,519 --> 00:26:44,229 on the loan program. 683 00:26:44,270 --> 00:26:45,605 Look, the reality is... 684 00:26:45,647 --> 00:26:48,942 - This may sound crazy, but it's true. 685 00:26:48,983 --> 00:26:51,486 In the '70s, a formal study was commissioned 686 00:26:51,528 --> 00:26:53,279 to see if people were gaming the system 687 00:26:53,321 --> 00:26:55,407 and recklessly declaring bankruptcy to avoid 688 00:26:55,448 --> 00:26:57,826 paying their student loans. 689 00:26:57,867 --> 00:26:59,452 But what the study found was that 690 00:26:59,494 --> 00:27:02,914 less than 1% of borrowers, or virtually no one, 691 00:27:02,956 --> 00:27:06,042 was actually doing this. 692 00:27:06,084 --> 00:27:09,295 If we were to try to find the person who was behind it, 693 00:27:09,337 --> 00:27:11,006 do you have any leads or tips? 694 00:27:11,047 --> 00:27:12,465 Or where would you go if you were me? 695 00:27:12,507 --> 00:27:14,467 Where would you start this process? 696 00:27:14,509 --> 00:27:18,138 - I don't know that anybody would take ownership of this. 697 00:27:18,179 --> 00:27:21,474 I mean, nobody put their name on this one, right? 698 00:27:21,516 --> 00:27:24,185 So whoever was doing it at the time 699 00:27:24,227 --> 00:27:26,146 did not want to have center stage. 700 00:27:26,187 --> 00:27:30,275 And I bet--I mean, I couldn't even give you a hint. 701 00:27:30,316 --> 00:27:32,152 - Got it. 702 00:27:32,193 --> 00:27:35,447 This mystery person really seemed to be hiding. 703 00:27:35,488 --> 00:27:37,365 - Mr. Speaker, I yield one minute 704 00:27:37,407 --> 00:27:39,075 to the distinguished gentleman from New York, Mr. Weiner. 705 00:27:39,117 --> 00:27:41,202 - One thing working in politics taught me 706 00:27:41,244 --> 00:27:44,330 is that politicians usually don't shy away from attention. 707 00:27:44,372 --> 00:27:45,623 - Sit down! 708 00:27:45,665 --> 00:27:48,877 - [auctioneering] 709 00:27:55,258 --> 00:27:57,469 - But no one was taking credit for the bankruptcy exception 710 00:27:57,510 --> 00:28:00,972 in the 1998 Education Bill. 711 00:28:01,014 --> 00:28:04,642 And it was easy to see why through a very weird exercise 712 00:28:04,684 --> 00:28:06,519 I subjected poor Dave to. 713 00:28:06,561 --> 00:28:09,356 All right, Dave, I'm going to name 714 00:28:09,397 --> 00:28:11,274 two different types of debts. Okay? 715 00:28:11,316 --> 00:28:12,525 And you're going to tell me which one 716 00:28:12,567 --> 00:28:14,652 is easier to discharge through bankruptcy. 717 00:28:14,694 --> 00:28:16,654 Are you up for like, a lightning round 718 00:28:16,696 --> 00:28:17,906 kind of thing here? - Sure. 719 00:28:17,947 --> 00:28:20,325 - So please turn this way. 720 00:28:20,367 --> 00:28:25,205 World's Saddest Gameshow! 721 00:28:25,246 --> 00:28:28,625 We'll put some time on the clock, and here we go. 722 00:28:28,667 --> 00:28:31,419 Unpaid taxes or student loans? 723 00:28:31,461 --> 00:28:33,046 - Unpaid taxes. 724 00:28:33,088 --> 00:28:35,048 - Business debts or student loans? 725 00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:36,299 - Business debts. 726 00:28:36,341 --> 00:28:38,677 - Bad checks or student loans? 727 00:28:38,718 --> 00:28:40,428 - Bad checks. 728 00:28:40,470 --> 00:28:42,639 - Car accident claims or student loans? 729 00:28:42,681 --> 00:28:44,933 - Car accident claims. 730 00:28:44,974 --> 00:28:46,559 - Credit cards or student loans? 731 00:28:46,601 --> 00:28:47,644 - Credit cards. 732 00:28:47,686 --> 00:28:50,021 - Gambling debts or student loans? 733 00:28:50,063 --> 00:28:51,272 - Gambling debts. 734 00:28:51,314 --> 00:28:53,400 - Excessive shopping or student loans? 735 00:28:53,441 --> 00:28:54,984 - Excessive shopping. 736 00:28:55,026 --> 00:28:56,695 - Collection agency accounts or student loans? 737 00:28:56,736 --> 00:28:58,321 - Collection agency accounts. 738 00:28:58,363 --> 00:28:59,406 [buzzer] 739 00:28:59,447 --> 00:29:01,074 - Thank you for playing. 740 00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:03,493 - [laughs] I hope I-- I hoped I passed the audition. 741 00:29:03,535 --> 00:29:05,120 - I mean, that's pretty telling, though, right? 742 00:29:05,161 --> 00:29:06,287 - Yeah. 743 00:29:06,329 --> 00:29:07,539 - It's everything but student loans. 744 00:29:07,580 --> 00:29:09,124 - It's insane. 745 00:29:09,165 --> 00:29:12,627 And that's why there are so many people suffering. 746 00:29:12,669 --> 00:29:17,424 It's making people into debt-- indentured servants. 747 00:29:17,465 --> 00:29:20,427 [mellow twangy music] 748 00:29:20,468 --> 00:29:21,761 * * 749 00:29:21,803 --> 00:29:26,099 - This is where I reached 750 00:29:26,141 --> 00:29:30,603 probably the darkest moment in my life. 751 00:29:30,645 --> 00:29:35,066 It's a parking lot of a cheap hotel. 752 00:29:35,108 --> 00:29:38,319 It was 11 years ago. 753 00:29:38,361 --> 00:29:42,032 - I met Scott, whose debt story began 20 years ago 754 00:29:42,073 --> 00:29:43,533 when he achieved his lifelong dream 755 00:29:43,575 --> 00:29:45,368 of becoming a teacher. 756 00:29:45,410 --> 00:29:48,455 - I love being a teacher. It is very fulfilling. 757 00:29:48,496 --> 00:29:49,622 But I didn't make enough money to make 758 00:29:49,664 --> 00:29:52,208 my student loan payments. 759 00:29:52,250 --> 00:29:54,711 I started out with a $35,000 loan. 760 00:29:54,753 --> 00:29:59,132 Somehow I now owe $150,000. 761 00:29:59,174 --> 00:30:01,468 I couldn't provide for my family the way 762 00:30:01,509 --> 00:30:03,678 they deserved me to provide for them. 763 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,681 That really, really, really screwed with my head 764 00:30:06,723 --> 00:30:10,185 to where I just felt like an utter and complete failure. 765 00:30:10,226 --> 00:30:12,354 [apprehensive music] 766 00:30:12,395 --> 00:30:15,398 I remember thinking it was like being in the water 767 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,150 after you fell off a boat, and you're treading water 768 00:30:17,192 --> 00:30:19,527 and treading water, and boats keep going by, 769 00:30:19,569 --> 00:30:20,820 and you keep thinking, 770 00:30:20,862 --> 00:30:23,198 maybe this boat will throw me a lifeline 771 00:30:23,239 --> 00:30:24,491 and I'll be all right. 772 00:30:24,532 --> 00:30:26,618 And then every time, the boat just kept going. 773 00:30:26,659 --> 00:30:29,746 And I remember thinking, how long... 774 00:30:29,788 --> 00:30:34,292 how long can I tread water before I drown? 775 00:30:34,334 --> 00:30:35,585 That's when I really started to think 776 00:30:35,627 --> 00:30:37,712 about taking my own life. 777 00:30:42,258 --> 00:30:45,553 Eventually, I called my wife. 778 00:30:45,595 --> 00:30:48,181 And she reminded me that the kids 779 00:30:48,223 --> 00:30:51,601 need me and they loved me. 780 00:30:51,643 --> 00:30:55,271 I'd like to think that I found courage at that point, 781 00:30:55,313 --> 00:30:59,150 and I started to feel hopeful because I realized, 782 00:30:59,192 --> 00:31:02,112 I just have to accept that this debt 783 00:31:02,153 --> 00:31:04,364 is probably never going to go away. 784 00:31:04,406 --> 00:31:07,617 You just have to learn how to live anyway. 785 00:31:07,659 --> 00:31:09,119 You just have to keep going. 786 00:31:11,871 --> 00:31:14,082 I almost didn't. 787 00:31:14,124 --> 00:31:21,089 * * 788 00:31:26,136 --> 00:31:29,097 - I think it's important that people be able to borrow 789 00:31:29,139 --> 00:31:30,682 to make what may be the most important investment 790 00:31:30,724 --> 00:31:32,684 of their lives, which is in their education. 791 00:31:32,726 --> 00:31:34,519 - Remember this guy? 792 00:31:34,561 --> 00:31:37,439 [tape rewinding] 793 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,524 We don't allow student loan debt 794 00:31:39,566 --> 00:31:40,650 to be discharged in bankruptcy. - Right. 795 00:31:40,692 --> 00:31:43,194 - I'd be at a loss to-- 796 00:31:43,236 --> 00:31:45,071 to explain why that should be the case. 797 00:31:45,113 --> 00:31:47,407 - Okay, let me translate that wonky comment 798 00:31:47,449 --> 00:31:49,534 into English for you. 799 00:31:49,576 --> 00:31:51,578 - We don't allow student loan debt 800 00:31:51,619 --> 00:31:53,496 to be discharged in bankruptcy. - Right. 801 00:31:53,538 --> 00:31:55,206 - I'd be at a loss to-- 802 00:31:55,248 --> 00:31:57,083 to explain why that should be the case. 803 00:31:59,252 --> 00:32:01,713 [upbeat percussive music] 804 00:32:01,755 --> 00:32:04,090 - Was this even good lawmaking? 805 00:32:04,132 --> 00:32:06,426 - Nice to see you. 806 00:32:06,468 --> 00:32:09,721 - Ari Melber is MSNBC's Chief Legal Correspondent. 807 00:32:09,763 --> 00:32:13,516 Though sometimes it seems he has a different beat entirely. 808 00:32:13,558 --> 00:32:16,269 - No greater authority than Jay-Z saw "99 Problems" 809 00:32:16,311 --> 00:32:19,147 when he says, "My glove compartment's locked. 810 00:32:19,189 --> 00:32:21,608 "So is the trunk in the back. I know my rights. 811 00:32:21,649 --> 00:32:23,360 You're going to need a warrant for that." 812 00:32:23,401 --> 00:32:27,113 There's no such thing as halfway crooks. 813 00:32:27,155 --> 00:32:30,158 We know that truth from the great poet Havoc of Mobb Deep. 814 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,411 And if you get really good campaign finance reform, 815 00:32:33,453 --> 00:32:35,872 maybe money ain't a thing because it won't be a thing. 816 00:32:35,914 --> 00:32:38,249 - 100%. - Yeah. 817 00:32:38,291 --> 00:32:39,584 Although I don't like it if it don't bling bling. 818 00:32:39,626 --> 00:32:41,127 - Okay. 819 00:32:41,169 --> 00:32:43,338 - So if you have a law that says 820 00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:45,548 virtually anyone in the country can file for bankruptcy 821 00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:47,175 and get rid of their debts, anyone, 822 00:32:47,217 --> 00:32:48,593 except for one group of people, 823 00:32:48,635 --> 00:32:51,304 people who have student loans, that seems to me... 824 00:32:51,346 --> 00:32:53,348 messed up would be my term of art for that. 825 00:32:53,390 --> 00:32:55,600 - To me as a lawyer, I look at it and say, 826 00:32:55,642 --> 00:32:59,729 if bankruptcy is available for all these other groups 827 00:32:59,771 --> 00:33:02,399 so that they can go on and be, "productive," 828 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,650 if it's available for corporations 829 00:33:03,692 --> 00:33:05,568 or private bankers and business people, 830 00:33:05,610 --> 00:33:07,195 why wouldn't it be available to a nurse? 831 00:33:07,237 --> 00:33:09,572 - I'm--it's keeping me up at night. 832 00:33:09,614 --> 00:33:10,824 I'm just trying to like unpack it. 833 00:33:10,865 --> 00:33:12,409 It seems like it's part of 1,000-page bill. 834 00:33:12,450 --> 00:33:13,576 You have these two lines, right? 835 00:33:13,618 --> 00:33:15,578 Crazy enough though, there's two words, 836 00:33:15,620 --> 00:33:17,288 "undue," "hardship." 837 00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:19,791 They basically say, okay, you can discharge these debts 838 00:33:19,833 --> 00:33:22,293 through bankruptcy if you can show that 839 00:33:22,335 --> 00:33:24,295 you have undue hardship from your loans. 840 00:33:24,337 --> 00:33:25,672 I'm gonna tell you right now. 841 00:33:25,714 --> 00:33:27,465 I've been talking with people around the country, 842 00:33:27,507 --> 00:33:29,384 they all pretty much think that they have undue hardship. 843 00:33:29,426 --> 00:33:31,594 No one's like, this hardship is due, right? 844 00:33:31,636 --> 00:33:34,305 That seems so vague almost as to be rendered meaningless. 845 00:33:34,347 --> 00:33:35,682 Is that... 846 00:33:35,724 --> 00:33:37,642 - Whether or not people can get the same benefit 847 00:33:37,684 --> 00:33:39,644 that a random anonymous corporation 848 00:33:39,686 --> 00:33:41,813 that might contribute less to society than a nurse... 849 00:33:41,855 --> 00:33:43,398 - Right. 850 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,316 - That's a decision that I think is subject 851 00:33:45,358 --> 00:33:47,569 to the politics and the power at the time 852 00:33:47,610 --> 00:33:49,487 that decision was made. Do people want to reopen that? 853 00:33:49,529 --> 00:33:51,448 I mean, I know that's what you're looking at. 854 00:33:51,489 --> 00:33:54,284 I think that's a very fair question to reopen. 855 00:33:54,325 --> 00:33:55,827 [inquisitive music] 856 00:33:55,869 --> 00:33:59,205 - But in order to reopen it, I needed to understand 857 00:33:59,247 --> 00:34:01,207 how this little-noticed but massive change 858 00:34:01,249 --> 00:34:03,752 happened in the first place. 859 00:34:03,793 --> 00:34:06,629 I needed my own Deep Throat-- 860 00:34:06,671 --> 00:34:10,884 or you know, something that sounds less gross. 861 00:34:10,925 --> 00:34:12,677 - So this is what you learn in school is, 862 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:13,970 the House and the Senate have to pass 863 00:34:14,012 --> 00:34:15,430 the exact same version of the bill 864 00:34:15,472 --> 00:34:16,890 for it to become law. 865 00:34:16,931 --> 00:34:18,224 So you know, when you go back to the beginning 866 00:34:18,266 --> 00:34:19,351 and look at this... 867 00:34:19,392 --> 00:34:21,519 - So I called in a favor. 868 00:34:21,561 --> 00:34:23,813 - The House does its version. Senate does its version. 869 00:34:23,855 --> 00:34:25,523 Then send it back down to the House. 870 00:34:25,565 --> 00:34:26,858 - So that's a new bill they're sending? 871 00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:28,610 - Right, so... 872 00:34:28,651 --> 00:34:31,738 - This is Ryan McConaghy, a top policy advisor 873 00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:33,406 from my days on Capitol Hill. 874 00:34:33,448 --> 00:34:35,450 And no one in D.C. knows more about 875 00:34:35,492 --> 00:34:37,494 how a bill becomes a law than him. 876 00:34:37,535 --> 00:34:41,039 - Conference committee--and then, when we're at this point 877 00:34:41,081 --> 00:34:42,874 in the line, you loop back... 878 00:34:42,916 --> 00:34:44,542 - But it quickly became clear 879 00:34:44,584 --> 00:34:46,836 that this was really complicated. 880 00:34:46,878 --> 00:34:48,880 - Back to the Senate. - Oh, Lord. 881 00:34:48,922 --> 00:34:52,926 - Then you head up here to the White House 882 00:34:52,967 --> 00:34:54,761 to get signed into law. - All right. 883 00:34:54,803 --> 00:34:56,638 You could see why this would be a little hard to follow 884 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:58,348 or confusing for anyone who doesn't 885 00:34:58,390 --> 00:34:59,432 work in Congress for a living. 886 00:34:59,474 --> 00:35:00,975 I mean, it's three, five, 887 00:35:01,017 --> 00:35:02,852 eight steps at least right here. 888 00:35:02,894 --> 00:35:05,021 So the provision that we're talking about 889 00:35:05,063 --> 00:35:06,606 that basically said you can't get rid 890 00:35:06,648 --> 00:35:07,774 of your student loans to bankruptcy, 891 00:35:07,816 --> 00:35:09,567 when do you start to notice it? 892 00:35:09,609 --> 00:35:11,903 - So actually, the first place a mention of it pops up 893 00:35:11,945 --> 00:35:14,781 is actually back here in this little detour 894 00:35:14,823 --> 00:35:16,825 to the Rules Committee. - Okay. 895 00:35:16,866 --> 00:35:19,411 What does that suggest? 896 00:35:19,452 --> 00:35:21,830 - That suggests it was part of a manager's amendment, 897 00:35:21,871 --> 00:35:24,541 which include smaller things that individual members want 898 00:35:24,582 --> 00:35:26,793 that just aren't worth the time to debate 899 00:35:26,835 --> 00:35:28,420 because they're pretty non-controversial. 900 00:35:28,461 --> 00:35:30,046 - I see, so this is where you could kind of slip something in 901 00:35:30,088 --> 00:35:31,464 without a ton of public discussion, 902 00:35:31,506 --> 00:35:32,632 without as much attention. - Yes. 903 00:35:32,674 --> 00:35:34,759 - This was a big step. 904 00:35:34,801 --> 00:35:37,512 Now we knew when it came in and that it 905 00:35:37,554 --> 00:35:40,348 was slipped in where it was less likely to be noticed. 906 00:35:40,390 --> 00:35:43,518 This enabled Ryan to come up with three top suspects. 907 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,437 - This is Chairman of the Committee, 908 00:35:45,478 --> 00:35:47,647 Sponsor of the manager's amendment, Bill Goodling. 909 00:35:47,689 --> 00:35:49,691 Technically, the manager's amendment 910 00:35:49,733 --> 00:35:51,401 where this first pops up is under his name. 911 00:35:51,443 --> 00:35:53,945 - So the first time we see any mention of this provision 912 00:35:53,987 --> 00:35:56,322 is in the manager's amendment. 913 00:35:56,364 --> 00:35:58,033 And he controls that amendment? - Right. 914 00:35:58,074 --> 00:35:59,659 It doesn't necessarily mean it's his thing. 915 00:35:59,701 --> 00:36:01,411 - It's not a smoking gun. But obviously... 916 00:36:01,453 --> 00:36:02,662 - He would have been in a position to make it happen. 917 00:36:02,704 --> 00:36:04,581 - Yeah. 918 00:36:04,622 --> 00:36:06,041 Making this one of the most interesting things 919 00:36:06,082 --> 00:36:08,376 Bill Goodling's ever done. 920 00:36:08,418 --> 00:36:10,378 - Thing keeps popping out of my ears. 921 00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:12,047 - A moderate Republican from Pennsylvania, 922 00:36:12,088 --> 00:36:14,466 he was a former superintendent who is known 923 00:36:14,507 --> 00:36:16,343 for being great with money. 924 00:36:19,888 --> 00:36:21,765 [cash register dings] - [laughs] 925 00:36:21,806 --> 00:36:25,060 - Next is Buck McKeon. 926 00:36:25,101 --> 00:36:26,644 Representative McKeon was the chairman 927 00:36:26,686 --> 00:36:28,480 of the Higher Education Subcommittee. 928 00:36:28,521 --> 00:36:31,441 So he would have been the first crack at the bill. 929 00:36:31,483 --> 00:36:33,818 He would have had to plausibly be aware 930 00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:35,028 of what was in the manager's amendment. 931 00:36:35,070 --> 00:36:37,113 - He even kind of looks like he is happy 932 00:36:37,155 --> 00:36:38,365 he got away with something. - [laughs] 933 00:36:38,406 --> 00:36:39,783 - Oh, I knew Buck. 934 00:36:39,824 --> 00:36:41,993 Not only was the California Republican 935 00:36:42,035 --> 00:36:43,912 on the Higher Education Subcommittee, 936 00:36:43,953 --> 00:36:45,747 he also became chair of the powerful 937 00:36:45,789 --> 00:36:47,499 Armed Services Committee... 938 00:36:47,540 --> 00:36:50,919 - I think we would rather have our enemies 939 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,421 die than our troops. 940 00:36:53,463 --> 00:36:56,007 - Where he was such a good friend to defense contractors, 941 00:36:56,049 --> 00:36:58,051 he developed a lovely reputation. 942 00:37:00,387 --> 00:37:03,765 - Third name, Senator Jeffords. 943 00:37:03,807 --> 00:37:05,183 Senator Jeffords was the chairman 944 00:37:05,225 --> 00:37:06,643 of the Senate HELP Committee, 945 00:37:06,685 --> 00:37:08,812 which is in charge of higher education. 946 00:37:08,853 --> 00:37:12,524 - Jim Jeffords, best known for switching parties in 2001 947 00:37:12,565 --> 00:37:14,693 and swinging control of the Senate to the Democrats, 948 00:37:14,734 --> 00:37:17,153 as well as for being part of the hottest act 949 00:37:17,195 --> 00:37:18,947 to ever grace a stage. 950 00:37:18,988 --> 00:37:21,032 all: * Every heart beats true * 951 00:37:21,074 --> 00:37:23,034 * For the red, white, and blue * 952 00:37:23,076 --> 00:37:27,038 * Where there's never a boast or brag * 953 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:28,998 - He is actually on record talking 954 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,875 about this provision at the very end of the process. 955 00:37:30,917 --> 00:37:32,711 And he acknowledges that some people are disappointed 956 00:37:32,752 --> 00:37:35,547 that it's in the bill, but that it was needed 957 00:37:35,588 --> 00:37:37,507 to help pay for the overall cost of the bill. 958 00:37:37,549 --> 00:37:39,551 - Wait, Jeffords says that? - Jeffords says this. 959 00:37:39,592 --> 00:37:41,553 - So he's basically defending the bill publicly? 960 00:37:41,594 --> 00:37:43,138 - He is defending the bill, and he's acknowledging 961 00:37:43,179 --> 00:37:45,181 that there's some agita about this. 962 00:37:45,223 --> 00:37:46,725 But he's--he's at least okay with it. 963 00:37:46,766 --> 00:37:48,059 - All right. Thank you. 964 00:37:48,101 --> 00:37:49,060 Now we have a place to at least start this. 965 00:37:49,102 --> 00:37:50,729 - Yep. - All right, and so... 966 00:37:50,770 --> 00:37:53,940 [brass music playing] 967 00:37:53,982 --> 00:37:55,567 Do you hear that music out there? 968 00:37:55,608 --> 00:38:01,990 * * 969 00:38:04,909 --> 00:38:06,786 Well, this is a funny coincidence. 970 00:38:06,828 --> 00:38:08,788 We were doing an interview about student debt 971 00:38:08,830 --> 00:38:11,875 for a documentary, and look what we see. 972 00:38:15,253 --> 00:38:17,088 This is a crazy coincidence. 973 00:38:17,130 --> 00:38:20,008 We're shooting a documentary about student debt. 974 00:38:20,050 --> 00:38:22,677 So what... [music blaring] 975 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,180 Can you have them stop for a sec? 976 00:38:25,221 --> 00:38:27,057 Guys? 977 00:38:27,098 --> 00:38:28,058 Tell me, guys, what are you here for? 978 00:38:28,099 --> 00:38:29,100 What's your--what's your cause? 979 00:38:29,142 --> 00:38:30,226 Who are you? What's going on? 980 00:38:30,268 --> 00:38:31,853 - We are the 45 Million. 981 00:38:31,895 --> 00:38:33,271 And we're an organization that's working 982 00:38:33,313 --> 00:38:35,690 to cancel student loan debt. - Yeah. 983 00:38:35,732 --> 00:38:37,984 - While I've been focused on the bankruptcy issue, 984 00:38:38,026 --> 00:38:40,695 another fix was gaining even more momentum. 985 00:38:40,737 --> 00:38:42,947 - President Biden said he's willing to forgive 986 00:38:42,989 --> 00:38:45,325 $10,000 in student loans. 987 00:38:45,367 --> 00:38:47,869 - As a candidate, Joe Biden issued a plan 988 00:38:47,911 --> 00:38:50,997 that some in his party felt didn't go far enough. 989 00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:53,208 - We have proposed debt cancellation 990 00:38:53,249 --> 00:38:55,335 for up to $50,000. 991 00:38:55,377 --> 00:38:57,170 - Still others wanted more. 992 00:38:57,212 --> 00:39:00,048 - President Biden can take a pen, sign a piece of paper, 993 00:39:00,090 --> 00:39:01,966 and cancel all the federal student loan debt. 994 00:39:02,008 --> 00:39:04,344 - Who here has student debt? 995 00:39:04,386 --> 00:39:05,679 - How much do you have? 996 00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:06,763 - Too much. - Too much. 997 00:39:06,805 --> 00:39:08,264 - 200,000. 998 00:39:08,306 --> 00:39:09,724 - I have 40,000, and I haven't even graduated yet. 999 00:39:09,766 --> 00:39:11,142 - And you haven't even graduated yet? 1000 00:39:11,184 --> 00:39:12,227 - Yeah. - I got about 140,000. 1001 00:39:12,268 --> 00:39:13,603 - Wow. 1002 00:39:13,645 --> 00:39:15,939 - How do you invest in a future 1003 00:39:15,980 --> 00:39:17,315 when you're constantly paying for the past? 1004 00:39:17,357 --> 00:39:18,983 - Yeah. 1005 00:39:19,025 --> 00:39:20,902 all: [chanting] Cancel student debt. 1006 00:39:20,944 --> 00:39:23,238 Cancel student debt. 1007 00:39:23,279 --> 00:39:25,031 - But not everyone in the media 1008 00:39:25,073 --> 00:39:26,783 was singing the same tune. 1009 00:39:26,825 --> 00:39:30,120 - Does a debt hop on the back of a unicorn and fly away? 1010 00:39:30,161 --> 00:39:32,205 - If we're just willing to cancel student loan debt 1011 00:39:32,247 --> 00:39:33,415 like you mentioned, why can't we just 1012 00:39:33,456 --> 00:39:34,958 cancel the credit card debt? 1013 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:36,960 - Student loan bailout, it's not going to teach 1014 00:39:37,002 --> 00:39:38,795 the students fiscal responsibility. 1015 00:39:38,837 --> 00:39:42,090 - Why should I have to pay for my neighbor's dumb daughter? 1016 00:39:42,132 --> 00:39:45,260 - Okay, at this point, it may be worth clarifying 1017 00:39:45,301 --> 00:39:47,804 some things about student debt cancellation. 1018 00:39:47,846 --> 00:39:51,057 - I mean, somebody is going to have to pay this money back. 1019 00:39:51,099 --> 00:39:53,059 - Because there's a lot of people confusing the issue. 1020 00:39:53,101 --> 00:39:55,270 - Shirking responsibility off of our backs 1021 00:39:55,311 --> 00:39:57,313 into the backs of taxpayers. 1022 00:39:57,355 --> 00:39:59,774 - Canceling debt does not mean that taxpayers 1023 00:39:59,816 --> 00:40:01,943 are picking up the tab or that anyone is paying 1024 00:40:01,985 --> 00:40:03,945 for your neighbor's "dumb daughter," 1025 00:40:03,987 --> 00:40:05,947 as our friend here would say. - Uh-uh! 1026 00:40:05,989 --> 00:40:08,283 - Are the taxpayers going to have to pay a debt back? 1027 00:40:08,324 --> 00:40:09,701 No. 1028 00:40:09,743 --> 00:40:11,453 I mean, one thing we misconstrue 1029 00:40:11,494 --> 00:40:13,955 about the federal budget is that it's zero sum. 1030 00:40:13,997 --> 00:40:15,290 It's not. 1031 00:40:15,331 --> 00:40:17,751 The federal government diverts resources 1032 00:40:17,792 --> 00:40:20,211 to different sectors of the economy based 1033 00:40:20,253 --> 00:40:22,672 on the decisions they make. 1034 00:40:22,714 --> 00:40:25,133 - With student debt canceled, the money that would have gone 1035 00:40:25,175 --> 00:40:26,885 straight to the government instead 1036 00:40:26,926 --> 00:40:29,262 flows out into the economy. 1037 00:40:29,304 --> 00:40:32,891 Think of it as a stimulus, like the PPP loans. 1038 00:40:32,932 --> 00:40:34,809 - These are loans that turn into grants. 1039 00:40:34,851 --> 00:40:36,811 You use this to pay your workers. 1040 00:40:36,853 --> 00:40:41,816 We want you to have a business that you can reopen quickly. 1041 00:40:41,858 --> 00:40:45,236 - Most of those loans will never be paid back. 1042 00:40:45,278 --> 00:40:47,322 - How do we always have funding for things 1043 00:40:47,364 --> 00:40:49,157 that are deemed too big to fail, 1044 00:40:49,199 --> 00:40:51,701 but people, the American citizens 1045 00:40:51,743 --> 00:40:53,203 are not considered too big to fail? 1046 00:40:54,496 --> 00:40:56,831 When I can't do something for my home or my family, 1047 00:40:56,873 --> 00:40:59,000 it impacts my community, because that's 1048 00:40:59,042 --> 00:41:00,710 less money going into my community. 1049 00:41:00,752 --> 00:41:03,880 - So by canceling the debt, they are putting resources 1050 00:41:03,922 --> 00:41:06,424 in the hands of young people, which will not only 1051 00:41:06,466 --> 00:41:08,426 facilitate their own well-being, 1052 00:41:08,468 --> 00:41:10,804 but it will facilitate ingenuity. 1053 00:41:10,845 --> 00:41:13,348 - There are a lot of students who come to my office hours 1054 00:41:13,390 --> 00:41:16,393 who say, I'm really passionate about X. 1055 00:41:16,434 --> 00:41:18,520 But I'm not gonna do that because it doesn't pay. 1056 00:41:18,561 --> 00:41:21,356 I'm gonna graduate with so much debt, 1057 00:41:21,398 --> 00:41:23,191 I should probably just take a job 1058 00:41:23,233 --> 00:41:25,068 where I'm guaranteed to make money. 1059 00:41:25,110 --> 00:41:28,196 When you're constantly thinking about the price tag, 1060 00:41:28,238 --> 00:41:30,198 and you can't think about the passion, 1061 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:33,326 that's where something has gone wrong. 1062 00:41:33,368 --> 00:41:36,037 - Professor Greer had a good point. 1063 00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:37,539 Thanks to student debt, 1064 00:41:37,580 --> 00:41:39,374 millions of adults are prevented 1065 00:41:39,416 --> 00:41:42,877 from contributing to society for financial reasons. 1066 00:41:42,919 --> 00:41:45,880 - My mom actually passed away from cancer. 1067 00:41:45,922 --> 00:41:48,383 And so I want to be able to do 1068 00:41:48,425 --> 00:41:50,385 what other physicians have done for my family 1069 00:41:50,427 --> 00:41:52,429 and be there for patients. 1070 00:41:52,470 --> 00:41:54,180 - Vivian grew up in a low-income neighborhood 1071 00:41:54,222 --> 00:41:56,182 in New York City. 1072 00:41:56,224 --> 00:41:59,269 She worked extremely hard and got into a top medical school 1073 00:41:59,310 --> 00:42:01,896 with the dream of giving back to her community. 1074 00:42:01,938 --> 00:42:03,898 - I want to be working in those 1075 00:42:03,940 --> 00:42:06,359 low-resource hospitals and clinics. 1076 00:42:06,401 --> 00:42:09,529 And that's where, like, my heart has always been. 1077 00:42:09,571 --> 00:42:11,906 But when I'm looking at potential jobs 1078 00:42:11,948 --> 00:42:16,369 for after I finish my residency, I have to consider, 1079 00:42:16,411 --> 00:42:19,914 with this salary, can I actually pay off my loans? 1080 00:42:19,956 --> 00:42:23,877 Can I afford to take that job that would be 1081 00:42:23,918 --> 00:42:28,340 more fulfilling, that would be a public service? 1082 00:42:28,381 --> 00:42:32,927 I want to be able to help, and my hands are tied. 1083 00:42:32,969 --> 00:42:36,473 - Vivian just wants to give back to society. 1084 00:42:36,514 --> 00:42:39,225 But some in the media see it differently. 1085 00:42:39,267 --> 00:42:40,852 - This is a giveaway to millennials 1086 00:42:40,894 --> 00:42:43,146 who have had their parents and family and society 1087 00:42:43,188 --> 00:42:45,231 pay for their bad decisions for their entire life. 1088 00:42:45,273 --> 00:42:46,941 - I'm so tired of hearing somebody say, 1089 00:42:46,983 --> 00:42:48,943 well, I've spent $80,000 on-- 1090 00:42:48,985 --> 00:42:52,197 I got 75,000 of that in student debt. 1091 00:42:52,238 --> 00:42:53,698 Then go get a job. 1092 00:42:53,740 --> 00:42:56,076 - The more I looked into this, the more clear it became 1093 00:42:56,117 --> 00:42:58,620 that this issue often caused a stir 1094 00:42:58,661 --> 00:43:01,039 because politicians and the media hate millennials. 1095 00:43:01,081 --> 00:43:02,957 - Toughen up, and don't run to your safe space 1096 00:43:02,999 --> 00:43:04,959 every time someone says something you disagree with. 1097 00:43:05,001 --> 00:43:09,214 - In fact, they seem to blame them for almost everything? 1098 00:43:09,255 --> 00:43:12,467 - 40% of millennials don't eat cereal anymore 1099 00:43:12,509 --> 00:43:15,136 because it takes too much time to clean up. 1100 00:43:15,178 --> 00:43:17,389 - Dallas Police Department facing a staff shortage, 1101 00:43:17,430 --> 00:43:20,100 and the chief says millennials are to blame. 1102 00:43:20,141 --> 00:43:21,476 - Experts say millennials are 1103 00:43:21,518 --> 00:43:23,311 also to blame for the decline 1104 00:43:23,353 --> 00:43:25,397 of casual dining venues. 1105 00:43:25,438 --> 00:43:27,273 - Um, millennials really 1106 00:43:27,315 --> 00:43:28,566 killed casual dining? 1107 00:43:28,608 --> 00:43:31,277 - I mean, we do like Chipotle, I think. 1108 00:43:31,319 --> 00:43:33,363 But doesn't everyone? 1109 00:43:33,405 --> 00:43:35,532 - This is a real-life millennial. 1110 00:43:35,573 --> 00:43:37,325 - What--what do the older generations 1111 00:43:37,367 --> 00:43:38,993 get wrong about millennials? 1112 00:43:39,035 --> 00:43:42,330 - Oh, my gosh, everything. [laughs] 1113 00:43:42,372 --> 00:43:45,458 I think people associate, like, the millennial generation 1114 00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:47,293 with like, young people. And it's like, 1115 00:43:47,335 --> 00:43:49,921 "Shit, I have gray hair." Can I say shit? I don't know. 1116 00:43:49,963 --> 00:43:51,131 - We got to cancel this whole thing. 1117 00:43:51,172 --> 00:43:52,257 - Okay. I don't know what-- 1118 00:43:52,298 --> 00:43:53,591 - She just-- - [laughs] 1119 00:43:53,633 --> 00:43:56,344 - Behind that offensive, despicable foul mouth 1120 00:43:56,386 --> 00:43:58,221 is a tireless researcher 1121 00:43:58,263 --> 00:44:00,015 who wrote a book about millennials 1122 00:44:00,056 --> 00:44:01,599 so she could figure out what the fuck was 1123 00:44:01,641 --> 00:44:03,393 going on with her generation. 1124 00:44:03,435 --> 00:44:05,937 - I think the older generation see us as being 1125 00:44:05,979 --> 00:44:08,648 entitled and narcissistic. 1126 00:44:08,690 --> 00:44:10,442 You know, okay. I get it. 1127 00:44:10,483 --> 00:44:13,361 Like, I probably am one of those millennials who, 1128 00:44:13,403 --> 00:44:14,571 like, have way too much education 1129 00:44:14,612 --> 00:44:17,198 and complain about the world too much. 1130 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:20,201 I mean, we are overeducated, but that's not 1131 00:44:20,243 --> 00:44:22,579 necessarily paying off in the same way 1132 00:44:22,620 --> 00:44:24,581 that it paid off for them. 1133 00:44:24,622 --> 00:44:27,042 And I don't want to take away from, like, 1134 00:44:27,083 --> 00:44:28,251 our parents and our grandparents 1135 00:44:28,293 --> 00:44:29,502 who've lived through wars, but-- 1136 00:44:29,544 --> 00:44:31,129 - Take away from them. 1137 00:44:31,171 --> 00:44:33,673 - I mean, we grew up with not only 9/11. 1138 00:44:33,715 --> 00:44:36,551 We--I, you know, graduated and there was a recession. 1139 00:44:36,593 --> 00:44:38,386 And then there was a recession again. 1140 00:44:38,428 --> 00:44:41,014 And at the same time, we're still being sold 1141 00:44:41,056 --> 00:44:42,515 the same American dream 1142 00:44:42,557 --> 00:44:45,268 that our parents you know, were told, 1143 00:44:45,310 --> 00:44:46,561 where, like, you know, just to get ahead, 1144 00:44:46,603 --> 00:44:48,063 just work hard enough. 1145 00:44:48,104 --> 00:44:50,106 And like, that's just not good enough anymore. 1146 00:44:50,148 --> 00:44:51,608 - The older generation is saying, 1147 00:44:51,649 --> 00:44:53,318 well, I paid for college. It's like, right. 1148 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,321 College was $2,000 a year. Right? 1149 00:44:56,363 --> 00:45:00,075 Now it's set in that $50,000 to $65,000 range. 1150 00:45:00,116 --> 00:45:01,201 You haven't bought a book yet. 1151 00:45:01,242 --> 00:45:02,952 - Many have characterized this as just 1152 00:45:02,994 --> 00:45:04,954 a millennial or gen Z issue. 1153 00:45:04,996 --> 00:45:08,958 And in fact, the fastest- growing constituency 1154 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,545 of those who owe student debt are 50-plus. 1155 00:45:12,587 --> 00:45:15,382 - That's Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley. 1156 00:45:15,423 --> 00:45:17,092 She wanted to clear up some misconceptions 1157 00:45:17,133 --> 00:45:19,344 about who's really affected by student debt. 1158 00:45:19,386 --> 00:45:21,596 - Within my district, I have senior citizens 1159 00:45:21,638 --> 00:45:24,516 living on fixed incomes, 76 years old, 1160 00:45:24,557 --> 00:45:26,226 still paying on student loans. 1161 00:45:26,267 --> 00:45:28,228 It's an economic justice issue. 1162 00:45:28,269 --> 00:45:29,729 It's a gender justice issue in that 1163 00:45:29,771 --> 00:45:32,565 women disproportionately bear the burden. 1164 00:45:32,607 --> 00:45:35,402 And Black student borrowers are five times more likely 1165 00:45:35,443 --> 00:45:38,655 to default on their loans than our white peers. 1166 00:45:38,697 --> 00:45:41,449 So it's a racial justice issue. 1167 00:45:41,491 --> 00:45:43,618 - I think especially Black Americans 1168 00:45:43,660 --> 00:45:46,037 have been told, the way to achieve the American dream, 1169 00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:49,457 like, education is the way for a leg up 1170 00:45:49,499 --> 00:45:51,584 if you want to acquire social capital, 1171 00:45:51,626 --> 00:45:53,753 if you want to make more money. 1172 00:45:53,795 --> 00:45:55,672 - If you want to see success in America 1173 00:45:55,714 --> 00:45:58,299 as a person of color, go to school. 1174 00:45:58,341 --> 00:45:59,467 And we are doing that. 1175 00:45:59,509 --> 00:46:01,678 But we've started out behind. 1176 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:04,014 We still get job discrimination. 1177 00:46:04,055 --> 00:46:07,642 You know, we still get denied for mortgages at higher rates. 1178 00:46:07,684 --> 00:46:10,228 So I think, you know, being a Black millennial 1179 00:46:10,270 --> 00:46:13,773 means that we get all the shit-- can I say shit? 1180 00:46:13,815 --> 00:46:15,191 I still don't know. - Well, you keep doing it, so-- 1181 00:46:15,233 --> 00:46:17,068 - I know. - Just--I don't know. 1182 00:46:17,110 --> 00:46:19,362 Like, can we... 1183 00:46:19,404 --> 00:46:21,114 That reminds me. 1184 00:46:21,156 --> 00:46:23,158 Who the fuck was responsible for the obliteration 1185 00:46:23,199 --> 00:46:26,202 of the American dream? 1186 00:46:26,244 --> 00:46:27,620 I needed to get back to our whodunit 1187 00:46:27,662 --> 00:46:29,497 and narrow down our suspects. 1188 00:46:29,539 --> 00:46:34,210 [intriguing music] 1189 00:46:34,252 --> 00:46:36,546 I got a mysterious call from Kevin 1190 00:46:36,588 --> 00:46:40,675 saying he had some high-level intel regarding my mission. 1191 00:46:40,717 --> 00:46:42,761 I asked him to meet me by the Washington Monument. 1192 00:46:42,802 --> 00:46:44,262 Kevin? 1193 00:46:44,304 --> 00:46:46,139 You know, to add to the intrigue. 1194 00:46:46,181 --> 00:46:48,683 My man. 1195 00:46:48,725 --> 00:46:51,603 You have a lead for me? 1196 00:46:51,644 --> 00:46:54,397 - I think it was Buck McKeon. 1197 00:46:54,439 --> 00:46:56,107 - How sure are you? 1198 00:46:56,149 --> 00:46:58,193 - All evidence points in his direction. 1199 00:46:58,234 --> 00:47:02,572 Out of anybody in Congress, McKeon had the best motive. 1200 00:47:02,614 --> 00:47:05,200 Between his committee assignments and the fact 1201 00:47:05,241 --> 00:47:07,243 that he was the recipient of thousands of dollars 1202 00:47:07,285 --> 00:47:09,120 in campaign contributions 1203 00:47:09,162 --> 00:47:11,581 from major college lending companies. 1204 00:47:11,623 --> 00:47:13,875 He had a lot to gain personally 1205 00:47:13,917 --> 00:47:16,753 by supporting key legislation on their behalf. 1206 00:47:16,795 --> 00:47:18,713 - How did you uncover this stuff? 1207 00:47:18,755 --> 00:47:20,715 - It's all public records, so you can go in 1208 00:47:20,757 --> 00:47:22,676 and see he was the primary sponsor, 1209 00:47:22,717 --> 00:47:25,720 not just a co-sponsor, but the primary sponsor of the bill. 1210 00:47:25,762 --> 00:47:27,389 And so you start connecting the dots of, 1211 00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:28,723 where is the money coming from? 1212 00:47:28,765 --> 00:47:31,810 And what are the motives for paying him that money? 1213 00:47:31,851 --> 00:47:34,562 And it's a perfect fit. 1214 00:47:34,604 --> 00:47:36,398 But the real key to me is, 1215 00:47:36,439 --> 00:47:38,108 he also sponsored the legislation 1216 00:47:38,149 --> 00:47:40,443 that helped privatize Sallie Mae, 1217 00:47:40,485 --> 00:47:43,154 one of the largest student lenders in the country. 1218 00:47:43,196 --> 00:47:45,615 At the end of the day, it's kind of like looking 1219 00:47:45,657 --> 00:47:47,867 for a serial killer, right? 1220 00:47:47,909 --> 00:47:51,413 The same guy keeps showing up at different crime scenes. 1221 00:47:51,454 --> 00:47:54,457 And eventually, the mystery is taken out of it. 1222 00:47:54,499 --> 00:47:55,500 We've got our guy. 1223 00:47:57,711 --> 00:47:59,587 Good luck. 1224 00:47:59,629 --> 00:48:01,423 - Thank you, man. 1225 00:48:01,464 --> 00:48:04,259 Phew. 1226 00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:06,261 Over the next few months, I made myself 1227 00:48:06,302 --> 00:48:08,513 a leading expert on Buck McKeon. 1228 00:48:08,555 --> 00:48:10,223 - Welcome back to our witnesses. 1229 00:48:10,265 --> 00:48:11,474 Any questions? 1230 00:48:11,516 --> 00:48:13,268 - Throwing myself into research, 1231 00:48:13,309 --> 00:48:14,936 I watched everything I could find. 1232 00:48:14,978 --> 00:48:16,604 - Uh... [clears throat] 1233 00:48:16,646 --> 00:48:18,857 - Including this beautiful promotional video 1234 00:48:18,898 --> 00:48:21,609 a local TV station presented to Buck. 1235 00:48:21,651 --> 00:48:24,237 - Buck was born September 9, 1938 1236 00:48:24,279 --> 00:48:25,530 to Howard and Phyllis McKeon. 1237 00:48:25,572 --> 00:48:26,948 - I learned so much about his roots, 1238 00:48:26,990 --> 00:48:29,617 I could have worked for ancestry.com. 1239 00:48:29,659 --> 00:48:32,454 - Dad called me his "Little Buckaroo," and it just stuck. 1240 00:48:32,495 --> 00:48:33,788 Ballistic missile defense... 1241 00:48:33,830 --> 00:48:34,956 - With the dulcet tones 1242 00:48:34,998 --> 00:48:37,292 of Buck McKeon haunting my dreams... 1243 00:48:37,334 --> 00:48:41,296 - Our nation cannot afford business as usual. 1244 00:48:41,338 --> 00:48:43,631 - I hopped a flight to his old congressional district 1245 00:48:43,673 --> 00:48:45,759 to investigate this suspect further... 1246 00:48:47,677 --> 00:48:50,388 Which is why I found myself in a nondescript strip mall 1247 00:48:50,430 --> 00:48:52,265 in Southern California. 1248 00:48:53,850 --> 00:48:55,602 Where are we? 1249 00:48:55,643 --> 00:48:58,521 - We're in the Santa Clarita area, north of Los Angeles. 1250 00:48:58,563 --> 00:49:01,483 And this is where Howard and Phil's Western Wear 1251 00:49:01,524 --> 00:49:03,443 used to be. 1252 00:49:03,485 --> 00:49:05,695 - This is Patrice Apodaca. 1253 00:49:05,737 --> 00:49:08,531 She's a former journalist from the "Los Angeles Times," 1254 00:49:08,573 --> 00:49:10,825 whose beat included the Santa Clarita Valley, 1255 00:49:10,867 --> 00:49:12,911 home to a retail chain so well-known 1256 00:49:12,952 --> 00:49:14,996 it appeared in a special tribute video. 1257 00:49:15,038 --> 00:49:16,790 [twangy Western music] 1258 00:49:16,831 --> 00:49:20,335 - Howard and Phil's was a retail chain owned 1259 00:49:20,377 --> 00:49:22,921 by the family of Buck McKeon. 1260 00:49:24,881 --> 00:49:29,386 All kinds of boots, shirts, ten-gallon hats-- 1261 00:49:29,427 --> 00:49:30,887 and they did very well. 1262 00:49:30,929 --> 00:49:34,349 They expanded in the '90s quite a bit 1263 00:49:34,391 --> 00:49:37,352 all over the Western states. 1264 00:49:37,394 --> 00:49:39,354 I think they had up to 52 stores at one point. 1265 00:49:39,396 --> 00:49:40,563 - Wow. - Yeah. 1266 00:49:40,605 --> 00:49:43,400 And then things went south. 1267 00:49:44,818 --> 00:49:46,277 They hit some bad times. 1268 00:49:46,319 --> 00:49:47,779 - They hit some bad times. - Yeah. 1269 00:49:47,821 --> 00:49:48,905 - Then what happened? 1270 00:49:48,947 --> 00:49:51,449 - They filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. 1271 00:49:51,491 --> 00:49:53,243 - That's right. 1272 00:49:53,284 --> 00:49:56,538 In 1996, Buck McKeon's family business took advantage 1273 00:49:56,579 --> 00:49:58,915 of that old American right-- 1274 00:49:58,957 --> 00:50:01,626 the ability to get out from under your debt. 1275 00:50:01,668 --> 00:50:03,545 Wow. 1276 00:50:03,586 --> 00:50:05,672 So why would his committee then deny students that right 1277 00:50:05,714 --> 00:50:07,257 two years later? 1278 00:50:16,016 --> 00:50:18,309 - You know, I think there's a misperception that people have 1279 00:50:18,351 --> 00:50:21,521 that bankruptcy is something that lazy people 1280 00:50:21,563 --> 00:50:24,441 or people who just aren't good at managing money resort to. 1281 00:50:24,482 --> 00:50:25,775 But overwhelming majority of them 1282 00:50:25,817 --> 00:50:29,487 were the victims of bad circumstances. 1283 00:50:29,529 --> 00:50:31,448 - Long before working for John McCain 1284 00:50:31,489 --> 00:50:32,782 in Washington D.C., 1285 00:50:32,824 --> 00:50:34,367 conservative economist Ike Brannon 1286 00:50:34,409 --> 00:50:35,910 worked for his dad, Jim, 1287 00:50:35,952 --> 00:50:38,830 back home in small town Illinois. 1288 00:50:38,872 --> 00:50:40,331 - My father was a bankruptcy lawyer, 1289 00:50:40,373 --> 00:50:42,125 and I spent a couple of summers working for him. 1290 00:50:42,167 --> 00:50:43,960 And I saw what he was doing was something that was really 1291 00:50:44,002 --> 00:50:45,420 helping a lot of people. 1292 00:50:57,515 --> 00:50:59,642 - In the 1970s, my father put an ad 1293 00:50:59,684 --> 00:51:02,103 in the Peoria "Journal Star" advertising his services 1294 00:51:02,145 --> 00:51:04,522 at a price well below what other bankruptcy lawyers 1295 00:51:04,564 --> 00:51:05,690 were charging at the time. 1296 00:51:10,904 --> 00:51:14,657 - When my dad advertised about student loan relief, 1297 00:51:14,699 --> 00:51:17,619 that made my dad a pariah in the Peoria media. 1298 00:51:17,660 --> 00:51:19,996 He was attacked on the local TV station. 1299 00:51:20,038 --> 00:51:21,915 He was attacked on the Peoria Journal Star. 1300 00:51:21,956 --> 00:51:24,042 The local bankruptcy judge at the time 1301 00:51:24,084 --> 00:51:27,170 referred to him in court as a shyster. 1302 00:51:27,212 --> 00:51:29,506 - This is the same panic that led 1303 00:51:29,547 --> 00:51:32,175 to that old 1970 study about whether students 1304 00:51:32,217 --> 00:51:33,927 were gaming the system. 1305 00:51:33,968 --> 00:51:38,181 They weren't, but that didn't stop the critics. 1306 00:51:38,223 --> 00:51:39,891 - So my father got a lot of attention, 1307 00:51:39,933 --> 00:51:41,518 not just in Peoria, but throughout the state. 1308 00:51:41,559 --> 00:51:44,062 And a couple of politicians expressed outrage 1309 00:51:44,104 --> 00:51:46,731 that my father would dare advertise such a thing. 1310 00:51:46,773 --> 00:51:48,983 And I think it did play a role in getting 1311 00:51:49,025 --> 00:51:51,027 state congressmen to vote to tighten 1312 00:51:51,069 --> 00:51:52,737 on the bankruptcy laws. 1313 00:51:52,779 --> 00:51:55,031 - For years, Jim and the family have worried 1314 00:51:55,073 --> 00:51:57,534 that bankruptcy rights were eventually removed 1315 00:51:57,575 --> 00:51:59,411 because of the ruckus he caused. 1316 00:51:59,452 --> 00:52:00,912 - This is part of his legacy, I think. 1317 00:52:00,954 --> 00:52:02,789 He really believed that 1318 00:52:02,831 --> 00:52:05,083 there should not be any exception 1319 00:52:05,125 --> 00:52:06,793 in the bankruptcy code for student debt. 1320 00:52:14,217 --> 00:52:17,470 - And if you're going to exclude just this one debt, 1321 00:52:17,512 --> 00:52:19,514 which for many people is by far the largest debt 1322 00:52:19,556 --> 00:52:21,599 that they ever incur, then the whole purpose 1323 00:52:21,641 --> 00:52:22,976 of bankruptcy is kind of negated. 1324 00:52:28,064 --> 00:52:30,150 [dramatic music] 1325 00:52:30,191 --> 00:52:35,655 - Speaking of which, Buck McKeon was ready to talk. 1326 00:52:35,697 --> 00:52:37,866 I wasn't going to let anything stop me 1327 00:52:37,907 --> 00:52:39,576 from holding his feet to the fire. 1328 00:52:41,619 --> 00:52:44,122 I was angry and determined. 1329 00:52:46,791 --> 00:52:48,960 And surprisingly hungry. 1330 00:52:49,002 --> 00:52:51,921 [inquisitive music] 1331 00:52:51,963 --> 00:52:59,012 * * 1332 00:52:59,971 --> 00:53:02,182 Satisfied with capturing some of the wall art, 1333 00:53:02,223 --> 00:53:04,601 I prepared myself to finally meet the former congressman 1334 00:53:04,642 --> 00:53:06,102 face to face. 1335 00:53:06,144 --> 00:53:07,604 - Who's Blake? - I am. Hi, Mr. Chairman. 1336 00:53:07,645 --> 00:53:09,856 Thank you for your time. - Good to see you. 1337 00:53:09,898 --> 00:53:11,775 - Enough was enough. 1338 00:53:11,816 --> 00:53:13,526 - Man. 1339 00:53:13,568 --> 00:53:15,945 - It was time to talk to this cowboy. 1340 00:53:15,987 --> 00:53:18,823 I was ready to rake him through the coals. 1341 00:53:21,826 --> 00:53:23,953 Thank you so much for your time. 1342 00:53:23,995 --> 00:53:25,747 You've had such a storied career. 1343 00:53:25,789 --> 00:53:27,999 I'm looking at all these seals on the wall and these-- 1344 00:53:28,041 --> 00:53:30,001 all these things you have. 1345 00:53:30,043 --> 00:53:33,171 In 1998, what was your position at that time? 1346 00:53:33,213 --> 00:53:36,841 - 1998, I was chairman of the subcommittee 1347 00:53:36,883 --> 00:53:38,968 over post-secondary education, training, 1348 00:53:39,010 --> 00:53:40,595 and lifelong learning. 1349 00:53:40,637 --> 00:53:41,805 - Something that keeps coming up 1350 00:53:41,846 --> 00:53:43,139 is the Higher Education Act, 1351 00:53:43,181 --> 00:53:44,683 particularly the reauthorization in 1998. 1352 00:53:44,724 --> 00:53:46,184 I think it's safe to say 1353 00:53:46,226 --> 00:53:47,894 you had a pretty key part in that. 1354 00:53:47,936 --> 00:53:50,230 And one of the offsets that we noticed in there 1355 00:53:50,271 --> 00:53:52,607 was the provision to make student loans 1356 00:53:52,649 --> 00:53:54,025 not dischargeable through bankruptcy. 1357 00:53:54,067 --> 00:53:56,653 I'm wondering if you can recall 1358 00:53:56,695 --> 00:53:59,072 where that policy idea originated 1359 00:53:59,114 --> 00:54:02,283 and how you were able to get it in the bill? 1360 00:54:02,325 --> 00:54:03,952 - I don't remember. 1361 00:54:03,993 --> 00:54:06,913 In fact, that was a pretty big bill. 1362 00:54:06,955 --> 00:54:10,875 And I don't-- I don't remember all 1363 00:54:10,917 --> 00:54:14,004 of the--all of the details. 1364 00:54:14,045 --> 00:54:15,338 - You don't recall that as anything that you were pushing? 1365 00:54:15,380 --> 00:54:16,840 - It wasn't something--no. No. 1366 00:54:16,881 --> 00:54:19,175 It wasn't something that I was championing 1367 00:54:19,217 --> 00:54:23,179 or had strong feelings about one way or another. 1368 00:54:23,221 --> 00:54:25,223 - How could it not be Buck? 1369 00:54:25,265 --> 00:54:27,100 All signs pointed to him. 1370 00:54:27,142 --> 00:54:29,853 But would you agree that in your bill in '98-- 1371 00:54:29,894 --> 00:54:32,188 that's when they barred dischargeability 1372 00:54:32,230 --> 00:54:33,815 for student loan debt? 1373 00:54:33,857 --> 00:54:35,316 - Like I say, I didn't remember that. 1374 00:54:35,358 --> 00:54:38,820 But I would definitely say it would be good to-- 1375 00:54:38,862 --> 00:54:41,781 to relook at that. 1376 00:54:41,823 --> 00:54:43,033 - Wait. What? 1377 00:54:43,074 --> 00:54:45,368 - That is a problem. 1378 00:54:45,410 --> 00:54:48,038 - You think so? 1379 00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:50,582 - Yeah. 1380 00:54:50,623 --> 00:54:52,959 It's a real protection for people. 1381 00:54:53,001 --> 00:54:56,129 I have understanding and compassion for people 1382 00:54:56,171 --> 00:54:59,966 that have loans and--and people can't pay them off. 1383 00:55:00,008 --> 00:55:03,803 And in fact, I think that will be one of the next big-- 1384 00:55:03,845 --> 00:55:06,890 big things that the country has to face. 1385 00:55:06,931 --> 00:55:11,853 But I think that's definitely a time to revisit. 1386 00:55:11,895 --> 00:55:12,896 - What was happening? 1387 00:55:16,816 --> 00:55:19,235 I'd spent months trying to track down 1388 00:55:19,277 --> 00:55:20,862 who was responsible for this provision. 1389 00:55:20,904 --> 00:55:22,405 - It's a tough thing. 1390 00:55:22,447 --> 00:55:24,949 - And Buck McKeon was suspect number one. 1391 00:55:24,991 --> 00:55:28,620 Now he was literally echoing my own thoughts back to me. 1392 00:55:28,661 --> 00:55:32,374 - I just think its-- it would be a good thing to-- 1393 00:55:32,415 --> 00:55:33,625 to look at. 1394 00:55:35,001 --> 00:55:36,294 - Hold on. 1395 00:55:36,336 --> 00:55:38,296 This could actually be a good thing. 1396 00:55:38,338 --> 00:55:41,716 If Buck McKeon, the key sponsor of the bill, 1397 00:55:41,758 --> 00:55:43,760 seemed to want to change it, 1398 00:55:43,802 --> 00:55:47,180 maybe the person I was searching for would too. 1399 00:55:47,222 --> 00:55:52,394 But that mystery person was still a mystery. 1400 00:55:52,435 --> 00:55:54,854 And I was back to square one. 1401 00:56:00,944 --> 00:56:03,363 With my search ground to a halt, 1402 00:56:03,405 --> 00:56:05,699 I started to wonder if this was all worth it. 1403 00:56:07,867 --> 00:56:09,911 Was anyone else wondering who was responsible 1404 00:56:09,953 --> 00:56:12,539 for this obscure bankruptcy provision? 1405 00:56:12,580 --> 00:56:14,708 - I do wonder why student loan debt 1406 00:56:14,749 --> 00:56:17,669 is exempted from the normal bankruptcy protections. 1407 00:56:17,711 --> 00:56:19,337 How did that happen? 1408 00:56:19,379 --> 00:56:21,548 - Uh...great minds? 1409 00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:24,426 - 44 million Americans-- 1410 00:56:24,467 --> 00:56:26,386 - Well, there was one other guy, 1411 00:56:26,428 --> 00:56:28,888 but nobody was listening to him, either. 1412 00:56:28,930 --> 00:56:31,683 - They cannot discharge this loan in bankruptcy. 1413 00:56:31,725 --> 00:56:33,560 Congress changed the bankruptcy law, 1414 00:56:33,601 --> 00:56:35,562 making student loan debts 1415 00:56:35,603 --> 00:56:37,564 non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. 1416 00:56:37,605 --> 00:56:41,568 College student loan is with you for a lifetime. 1417 00:56:41,609 --> 00:56:43,903 We need to restore dischargeability in bankruptcy 1418 00:56:43,945 --> 00:56:46,322 for student loans once and for all. 1419 00:56:46,364 --> 00:56:48,408 - Senator Durbin even introduced a bill 1420 00:56:48,450 --> 00:56:50,952 to fix the bankruptcy laws. 1421 00:56:50,994 --> 00:56:53,663 But that seemed to be going nowhere. 1422 00:56:53,705 --> 00:56:55,415 - For goodness sakes, how can we ignore 1423 00:56:55,457 --> 00:56:58,585 the crushing student loan debt across America? 1424 00:56:58,626 --> 00:57:00,587 - Who had caused this whole mess? 1425 00:57:00,628 --> 00:57:04,299 I wracked my brain for clues from all the conversations 1426 00:57:04,341 --> 00:57:06,009 I'd had over the past three years. 1427 00:57:06,051 --> 00:57:08,845 - Federal loans are handed over from the Treasury 1428 00:57:08,887 --> 00:57:10,805 directly to the Department of Education. 1429 00:57:10,847 --> 00:57:12,682 [echoing] Education... 1430 00:57:12,724 --> 00:57:14,726 - We met with the Department of Ed officials-- 1431 00:57:14,768 --> 00:57:16,269 [echoing] Department of Ed-- 1432 00:57:16,311 --> 00:57:17,937 - You know, it's certainly worth seeing if there's anybody 1433 00:57:17,979 --> 00:57:19,564 in the Department of Education who was around at that time. 1434 00:57:19,606 --> 00:57:21,024 [echoing] Department of Education-- 1435 00:57:22,525 --> 00:57:24,361 - My name is Jamienne Studley. 1436 00:57:24,402 --> 00:57:27,030 And in 1998, I was acting general counsel 1437 00:57:27,072 --> 00:57:30,116 of the U.S. Department of Education. 1438 00:57:30,158 --> 00:57:33,328 - Maybe Jamienne could point me in the right direction. 1439 00:57:33,370 --> 00:57:36,748 The 1998 Higher Education Act made it so that federal loans 1440 00:57:36,790 --> 00:57:38,750 were non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. 1441 00:57:38,792 --> 00:57:41,836 Do you recall that piece of it? 1442 00:57:41,878 --> 00:57:44,130 - I recall it as a matter of law. 1443 00:57:44,172 --> 00:57:46,424 I don't remember the debates about it. 1444 00:57:46,466 --> 00:57:50,595 And we knew from the beginning that that was a problem. 1445 00:57:50,637 --> 00:57:52,764 - Yeah, and it's so relevant today, obviously, 1446 00:57:52,806 --> 00:57:55,642 in just ways that we never could have foreseen. 1447 00:57:55,684 --> 00:57:58,103 - But I think we teed up a lot 1448 00:57:58,144 --> 00:58:00,897 of really important ideas in the bill. 1449 00:58:00,939 --> 00:58:02,857 And I was very, very enthusiastic 1450 00:58:02,899 --> 00:58:05,985 about income-based repayment approaches. 1451 00:58:06,027 --> 00:58:09,739 - Oh, yeah, income-based repayment-- 1452 00:58:09,781 --> 00:58:11,991 I'd seen some of those fun videos. 1453 00:58:12,033 --> 00:58:13,451 - Payments are based on your income. 1454 00:58:14,494 --> 00:58:15,370 So if you make little, you pay little. 1455 00:58:16,579 --> 00:58:17,539 - With these helpful-looking programs, 1456 00:58:18,707 --> 00:58:19,874 maybe there'd be no need for bankruptcy. 1457 00:58:20,959 --> 00:58:21,876 Just use the federal government's simple, 1458 00:58:22,585 --> 00:58:24,004 convenient tools instead. 1459 00:58:24,045 --> 00:58:24,963 - Let's say you win the lottery, 1460 00:58:25,005 --> 00:58:27,007 maybe just pay your loans off. 1461 00:58:27,048 --> 00:58:28,508 But if your situation changes, this might lower 1462 00:58:28,550 --> 00:58:29,968 your payments substantially. 1463 00:58:30,010 --> 00:58:31,553 - Lower monthly payments? 1464 00:58:31,594 --> 00:58:34,014 Now, that sounds like a deal. 1465 00:58:34,055 --> 00:58:37,392 I hear about these income- contingent repayment plans, 1466 00:58:37,434 --> 00:58:39,686 or income-based repayment plans, 1467 00:58:39,728 --> 00:58:41,688 or a public service loan forgiveness-- 1468 00:58:41,730 --> 00:58:43,064 what's the matter with those? 1469 00:58:43,106 --> 00:58:45,525 - They are all cruel jokes, 1470 00:58:45,567 --> 00:58:48,028 and the borrowers are the punch line. 1471 00:58:48,069 --> 00:58:50,864 Millions of borrowers who have tried 1472 00:58:50,905 --> 00:58:54,075 for these various income- driven repayment programs 1473 00:58:54,117 --> 00:58:57,787 have been disqualified for one reason or another. 1474 00:58:57,829 --> 00:59:00,415 - And even if you do get into these programs, 1475 00:59:00,457 --> 00:59:03,084 they still have ways to enrage you. 1476 00:59:03,126 --> 00:59:05,420 - I had an income-based repayment plan. 1477 00:59:05,462 --> 00:59:07,088 That was a very affordable payment, 1478 00:59:07,130 --> 00:59:09,883 but the problem was that the balances kept growing 1479 00:59:09,924 --> 00:59:13,094 because I wasn't paying enough to cover the interest. 1480 00:59:13,136 --> 00:59:15,430 So you're actually really paying on a loan 1481 00:59:15,472 --> 00:59:17,182 while the loan grows. 1482 00:59:17,223 --> 00:59:19,976 And that really, really screwed with my mental health. 1483 00:59:20,018 --> 00:59:22,562 I was so overwhelmed emotionally 1484 00:59:22,604 --> 00:59:24,481 by this landslide that I was standing on. 1485 00:59:24,522 --> 00:59:27,901 No matter what I did, it just kept sliding. 1486 00:59:27,942 --> 00:59:30,612 - Yeah, and in terms of the income-based repayment plans, 1487 00:59:30,653 --> 00:59:32,739 putting aside whether it was a good idea, 1488 00:59:32,781 --> 00:59:34,574 do you feel like it's been a success in terms 1489 00:59:34,616 --> 00:59:35,784 of its implementation? 1490 00:59:40,955 --> 00:59:44,918 - It has been a challenge to explain. 1491 00:59:44,959 --> 00:59:48,254 It has some inherent weaknesses. 1492 00:59:48,296 --> 00:59:50,965 I'm sure in retrospect, everyone involved 1493 00:59:51,007 --> 00:59:52,884 wishes that-- that had gone more smoothly. 1494 00:59:52,926 --> 00:59:55,512 [inquisitive music] 1495 00:59:55,553 --> 01:00:00,934 * * 1496 01:00:00,975 --> 01:00:03,520 - With my search hitting a wall, 1497 01:00:03,561 --> 01:00:07,148 I needed new leads and a drink. 1498 01:00:07,190 --> 01:00:11,611 I feel--I feel a little stuck, honestly. 1499 01:00:11,653 --> 01:00:13,238 What's--what's new on your end on this? 1500 01:00:13,279 --> 01:00:14,864 - You know, I hit a bunch of people in my network. 1501 01:00:14,906 --> 01:00:16,783 I knew a few people who were working 1502 01:00:16,825 --> 01:00:17,867 on the committees at the time. 1503 01:00:17,909 --> 01:00:19,202 - These are, like, aides who were working 1504 01:00:19,244 --> 01:00:20,870 on the House Education-- 1505 01:00:20,912 --> 01:00:21,955 - House Education and Workforce Committee, 1506 01:00:21,996 --> 01:00:23,623 Senate HELP committee-- 1507 01:00:23,665 --> 01:00:25,625 you know, yielded some interesting results. 1508 01:00:25,667 --> 01:00:27,210 So one, you know, we talked about how 1509 01:00:27,252 --> 01:00:29,629 this is a big bipartisan bill, everyone wanted to see it go. 1510 01:00:29,671 --> 01:00:32,590 But there was a quest to try to find--you know, pay-fors. 1511 01:00:32,632 --> 01:00:33,967 - Wait. Hold on. What do you mean by pay-fors? 1512 01:00:34,009 --> 01:00:35,510 What does that mean? 1513 01:00:35,552 --> 01:00:37,137 - Places where they could save money, 1514 01:00:37,178 --> 01:00:39,097 cut federal spending, in order to pay for new spending 1515 01:00:39,139 --> 01:00:40,598 on something else. - I see. 1516 01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:42,308 - So it wasn't to drive this policy. 1517 01:00:42,350 --> 01:00:44,144 It was, they were looking for money to pay for the bill. 1518 01:00:44,185 --> 01:00:45,895 One of the places they go for ideas 1519 01:00:45,937 --> 01:00:47,647 is the Clinton administration. 1520 01:00:47,689 --> 01:00:49,107 It turns out, the Clinton administration actually 1521 01:00:49,149 --> 01:00:52,569 included this bankruptcy change in their recommendations 1522 01:00:52,610 --> 01:00:55,780 that they sent over to Congress earlier in the process. 1523 01:00:55,822 --> 01:00:57,532 So this idea actually came over 1524 01:00:57,574 --> 01:00:59,325 from the Clinton Department of Education. 1525 01:00:59,367 --> 01:01:01,578 - The Department of Ed-- I knew it. 1526 01:01:01,619 --> 01:01:02,996 - In sort of asking around, okay, so, like, 1527 01:01:03,038 --> 01:01:04,831 who was at the administration? 1528 01:01:04,873 --> 01:01:07,667 One name that's come up is-- it's got David Longanecker-- 1529 01:01:07,709 --> 01:01:09,961 he was the Assistant Secretary of Education-- 1530 01:01:10,003 --> 01:01:11,588 would have been involved in the discussions 1531 01:01:11,629 --> 01:01:13,256 between Congress and the administration, so. 1532 01:01:13,298 --> 01:01:14,674 - So I got to talk to David Longanecker? 1533 01:01:14,716 --> 01:01:16,176 - Yeah. 1534 01:01:16,217 --> 01:01:18,928 - Well, David Longanecker was the person 1535 01:01:18,970 --> 01:01:20,972 in higher ed policy. 1536 01:01:21,014 --> 01:01:23,683 He was a huge player, high integrity, 1537 01:01:23,725 --> 01:01:27,187 ethical, and incredibly smart. 1538 01:01:27,228 --> 01:01:33,651 - David Longanecker, L-O-N-G, A or E, N-E-C-K-E-R. 1539 01:01:33,693 --> 01:01:35,195 He'd be a great guy to talk to. 1540 01:01:35,236 --> 01:01:37,947 He's terrific. 1541 01:01:37,989 --> 01:01:41,576 - We do think the system can work a lot better. 1542 01:01:41,618 --> 01:01:43,661 So let me present to you at this time 1543 01:01:43,703 --> 01:01:46,122 David Longanecker, who is Assistant Secretary 1544 01:01:46,164 --> 01:01:49,793 for post-secondary education. 1545 01:01:49,834 --> 01:01:51,378 - Thank you, Mr. Secretary. What I'll do is... 1546 01:01:51,419 --> 01:01:53,963 - I watched hours of Longanecker video. 1547 01:01:54,005 --> 01:01:56,091 He seemed to have a particular focus. 1548 01:01:56,132 --> 01:01:58,051 - And in addition, that if a student 1549 01:01:58,093 --> 01:02:01,680 hasn't repaid their loan, we'll go after them. 1550 01:02:01,721 --> 01:02:03,139 We've been doing a lot of that. 1551 01:02:03,181 --> 01:02:05,266 We've been using wage garnishment, 1552 01:02:05,308 --> 01:02:09,979 and we've been using IRS refund collections in the program 1553 01:02:10,021 --> 01:02:11,731 very successfully over the last few years. 1554 01:02:11,773 --> 01:02:13,400 So we'll go after those students who default 1555 01:02:13,441 --> 01:02:16,277 very aggressively and very quickly. 1556 01:02:16,319 --> 01:02:18,863 We collect every dollar that can be collected. 1557 01:02:18,905 --> 01:02:21,741 We pursue defaulted loans with a vengeance. 1558 01:02:21,783 --> 01:02:23,702 We use collection agencies. 1559 01:02:23,743 --> 01:02:26,287 We garnish your wages. 1560 01:02:26,329 --> 01:02:27,956 - Fast forwarding to the present, 1561 01:02:27,997 --> 01:02:30,208 Mr. Longanecker retired from higher education 1562 01:02:30,250 --> 01:02:33,253 to pursue his true love. 1563 01:02:33,294 --> 01:02:36,631 He was now a commercial truck driver in Colorado. 1564 01:02:36,673 --> 01:02:40,885 [truck horn blares] 1565 01:02:40,927 --> 01:02:43,847 [suspenseful music] 1566 01:02:43,888 --> 01:02:50,812 * * 1567 01:02:55,316 --> 01:02:58,361 Even if Longanecker wasn't our guy, I wondered, 1568 01:02:58,403 --> 01:03:00,739 with such a long career in education, 1569 01:03:00,780 --> 01:03:03,241 had he seen the damage this provision had caused, 1570 01:03:03,283 --> 01:03:05,201 from spiraling college costs 1571 01:03:05,243 --> 01:03:08,872 to massive debt and ruined lives? 1572 01:03:08,913 --> 01:03:15,879 * * 1573 01:03:19,341 --> 01:03:23,511 As I sat there preparing, I started to get nervous. 1574 01:03:23,553 --> 01:03:26,389 Like Buck McKeon, was this another dead end? 1575 01:03:26,431 --> 01:03:28,433 Was I just wasting everyone's time? 1576 01:03:33,188 --> 01:03:36,483 So let's--let's talk about a decision 1577 01:03:36,524 --> 01:03:40,236 that was made in 1998 during the Higher Ed Reauthorization. 1578 01:03:40,278 --> 01:03:42,822 Talking to the Congressional staffers from the time 1579 01:03:42,864 --> 01:03:46,826 with respect, specifically, to the provision that 1580 01:03:46,868 --> 01:03:49,162 barred student loans from being discharged 1581 01:03:49,204 --> 01:03:50,830 through bankruptcy-- - Sure. 1582 01:03:50,872 --> 01:03:52,415 - What they said essentially happened is that 1583 01:03:52,457 --> 01:03:54,292 there were a number of programs that people wanted. 1584 01:03:54,334 --> 01:03:56,961 And so they went to the education department 1585 01:03:57,003 --> 01:03:59,172 and you for ideas. 1586 01:03:59,214 --> 01:04:02,384 And then that's where kind of that idea developed. 1587 01:04:02,425 --> 01:04:03,968 Does that sound about right? 1588 01:04:04,010 --> 01:04:05,220 - I think that's fair representation of the time. 1589 01:04:05,261 --> 01:04:07,389 - Okay. 1590 01:04:07,430 --> 01:04:09,265 It was now clear. 1591 01:04:09,307 --> 01:04:12,268 We had finally found our man. 1592 01:04:12,310 --> 01:04:14,145 - Got it. 1593 01:04:14,187 --> 01:04:17,148 So it's 20 years since the 1998 Higher Ed Reauthorization Act. 1594 01:04:17,190 --> 01:04:18,942 - Yeah. 1595 01:04:18,983 --> 01:04:21,861 - And the bankruptcy provision, in particular-- 1596 01:04:21,903 --> 01:04:25,156 how much time have you spent reflecting on that decision 1597 01:04:25,198 --> 01:04:27,992 that you guys made back then? 1598 01:04:28,034 --> 01:04:29,953 - I have--I don't-- 1599 01:04:29,994 --> 01:04:31,121 it wasn't the most dominant thing 1600 01:04:31,162 --> 01:04:32,539 I've thought about since then. 1601 01:04:32,580 --> 01:04:36,501 I have in many conversations, defended what I think 1602 01:04:36,543 --> 01:04:39,254 was a reasonable decision, 1603 01:04:39,295 --> 01:04:41,965 that these are obligations that people make. 1604 01:04:42,007 --> 01:04:44,259 And that when people accept an obligation, 1605 01:04:44,300 --> 01:04:47,053 they have a responsibility to attend to that. 1606 01:04:47,095 --> 01:04:49,848 And if students actually defaulted, they weren't-- 1607 01:04:49,889 --> 01:04:54,310 they simply weren't acting in good faith. 1608 01:04:54,352 --> 01:04:56,938 - So you just made a point that, you know, 1609 01:04:56,980 --> 01:04:58,982 people should meet their obligations, like you said. 1610 01:04:59,024 --> 01:05:01,359 But given not what the intention was, 1611 01:05:01,401 --> 01:05:03,611 but what the result has been 20 years in, 1612 01:05:03,653 --> 01:05:05,655 does that give you some pause and make you think 1613 01:05:05,697 --> 01:05:08,950 maybe it is worth, you know, 1614 01:05:08,992 --> 01:05:11,036 reopening that option for bankruptcy? 1615 01:05:12,328 --> 01:05:14,080 - No. 1616 01:05:14,122 --> 01:05:15,999 I can understand why people would come at that. 1617 01:05:16,041 --> 01:05:18,168 But that's why we created the Income Contingent 1618 01:05:18,209 --> 01:05:21,588 Repayment Plans, a failsafe for the students 1619 01:05:21,629 --> 01:05:23,089 who were serious about their loans. 1620 01:05:23,131 --> 01:05:24,716 - But there are millions of people who applied, 1621 01:05:24,758 --> 01:05:27,010 got kicked off because they-- there are all sorts of reasons. 1622 01:05:27,052 --> 01:05:28,511 We have to get into all of them. 1623 01:05:28,553 --> 01:05:31,139 But we are now 20 years in, and we've seen what happens 1624 01:05:31,181 --> 01:05:32,307 when it's implemented. 1625 01:05:32,349 --> 01:05:33,600 Does that concern you? 1626 01:05:33,641 --> 01:05:35,268 - Well, yes. 1627 01:05:35,310 --> 01:05:38,605 But the answer I don't think is to go to a system 1628 01:05:38,646 --> 01:05:40,648 that I don't think has the right sets 1629 01:05:40,690 --> 01:05:42,275 of responsibilities. 1630 01:05:42,317 --> 01:05:46,029 I mean, I think that Income Contingent Repayment 1631 01:05:46,071 --> 01:05:51,034 is a more reasonable response than simply discharging 1632 01:05:51,076 --> 01:05:52,911 the loan in bankruptcy. 1633 01:05:52,952 --> 01:05:54,287 - Okay. 1634 01:05:54,329 --> 01:05:56,206 But do you believe in bankruptcy in general, 1635 01:05:56,247 --> 01:05:57,499 just as a general-- - Sure. 1636 01:05:57,540 --> 01:05:59,042 - I mean, it sounds like you-- - Sure. I do. No. 1637 01:05:59,084 --> 01:06:01,086 I believe in bankruptcy as a general provision 1638 01:06:01,127 --> 01:06:03,296 for people who really get hammered, 1639 01:06:03,338 --> 01:06:06,299 give them a chance to start over. 1640 01:06:06,341 --> 01:06:08,218 - Right. 1641 01:06:08,259 --> 01:06:11,596 Look, we have pretty much dischargeability 1642 01:06:11,638 --> 01:06:14,057 for bankruptcy for almost any debt you could have. 1643 01:06:14,099 --> 01:06:15,475 You and I can go to Vegas tonight, 1644 01:06:15,517 --> 01:06:18,019 and maybe we should, lose $10 million, 1645 01:06:18,061 --> 01:06:19,187 and then we have a chance 1646 01:06:19,229 --> 01:06:20,563 to discharge it through bankruptcy. 1647 01:06:20,605 --> 01:06:23,316 The one exception is people with student loan debt 1648 01:06:23,358 --> 01:06:25,068 struggling as a result of that. 1649 01:06:25,110 --> 01:06:26,611 And so are you sympathetic to the point 1650 01:06:26,653 --> 01:06:29,948 that these students have been singled out? 1651 01:06:29,989 --> 01:06:34,369 - Well, I guess one could look at it in that fashion. 1652 01:06:34,411 --> 01:06:36,246 But you also don't want something-- 1653 01:06:36,287 --> 01:06:38,206 I mean, you mentioned the borrowers. 1654 01:06:38,248 --> 01:06:40,500 Most of those are repaying their debt. 1655 01:06:40,542 --> 01:06:42,961 And they're doing so, not comfortably, nobody is-- 1656 01:06:43,003 --> 01:06:44,129 - They're struggling. 1657 01:06:44,170 --> 01:06:45,505 Yeah, a lot of them are struggling. 1658 01:06:45,547 --> 01:06:46,589 - They're struggling, at least in their own mind, 1659 01:06:46,631 --> 01:06:47,966 they're struggling. 1660 01:06:48,008 --> 01:06:50,010 [dramatic musical sting] 1661 01:06:50,051 --> 01:06:52,595 And--but most of them are repaying their debt. 1662 01:06:52,637 --> 01:06:55,098 Default rates are higher than they've been, 1663 01:06:55,140 --> 01:06:57,642 but they still aren't terribly high, and-- 1664 01:06:57,684 --> 01:07:01,312 - I think--sorry to interject, but I think it is possible 1665 01:07:01,354 --> 01:07:03,023 for someone to have a tremendous amount of debt, 1666 01:07:03,064 --> 01:07:05,025 not default, and still be struggling 1667 01:07:05,066 --> 01:07:06,443 as a result of that. 1668 01:07:06,484 --> 01:07:08,194 And for what it's worth, tuition, as you well know, 1669 01:07:08,236 --> 01:07:09,654 is triple what it was back then, 1670 01:07:09,696 --> 01:07:11,364 but wages have stagnated. 1671 01:07:11,406 --> 01:07:14,451 Does that interest you at all? 1672 01:07:14,492 --> 01:07:18,204 - Yes, but not convincingly. 1673 01:07:18,246 --> 01:07:19,998 - Look, these people are paying their loans 1674 01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:21,750 well into their 20s, 30s, and 40s, 1675 01:07:21,791 --> 01:07:23,626 often even into their 50s right now. 1676 01:07:23,668 --> 01:07:25,170 They're not buying homes as a result. 1677 01:07:25,211 --> 01:07:26,379 They're buying cars later. 1678 01:07:26,421 --> 01:07:27,672 They're starting families later. 1679 01:07:27,714 --> 01:07:29,424 And Powell, the Fed Reserve Chair 1680 01:07:29,466 --> 01:07:31,468 said there could be some macroeconomic problems 1681 01:07:31,509 --> 01:07:33,720 that occur as a result of that. 1682 01:07:33,762 --> 01:07:37,223 So do you think it's working? 1683 01:07:37,265 --> 01:07:39,225 - I think it's--yeah. 1684 01:07:39,267 --> 01:07:43,313 I mean, you've got 44 million borrowers. 1685 01:07:43,355 --> 01:07:45,148 [inquisitive music] 1686 01:07:45,190 --> 01:07:47,233 And so I think it works. 1687 01:07:47,275 --> 01:07:50,070 - I had met the man behind the bankruptcy rule, 1688 01:07:50,111 --> 01:07:52,405 and he was not backing down. 1689 01:07:52,447 --> 01:07:55,825 - I still believe that the-- the right incentive is to say, 1690 01:07:55,867 --> 01:07:57,202 there's a safeguard here. 1691 01:07:57,243 --> 01:07:59,162 But you have a major responsibility 1692 01:07:59,204 --> 01:08:00,622 to repay your loan. 1693 01:08:00,663 --> 01:08:03,249 - For the next hour, he offered a range of opinions 1694 01:08:03,291 --> 01:08:04,834 to support his position. 1695 01:08:04,876 --> 01:08:07,671 - My daughter paid off her entire student loan. 1696 01:08:07,712 --> 01:08:10,507 She was able--and she was in the Income Contingent Program 1697 01:08:10,548 --> 01:08:12,717 because her dad knew about it. 1698 01:08:12,759 --> 01:08:14,219 - Not everyone has you for a dad. 1699 01:08:14,260 --> 01:08:15,637 A lot of people don't know about it. 1700 01:08:15,679 --> 01:08:17,514 - I mean, we have an awful lot of students 1701 01:08:17,555 --> 01:08:20,183 who are in Never-Never Land today. 1702 01:08:20,225 --> 01:08:23,269 But on average, their debt isn't all that substantial. 1703 01:08:23,311 --> 01:08:24,854 - He concluded with a final thought 1704 01:08:24,896 --> 01:08:28,608 that encapsulated his position more than anything else-- 1705 01:08:28,650 --> 01:08:30,443 - For the ones who put themselves 1706 01:08:30,485 --> 01:08:33,697 in exceptional debt, they were the damn fools, 1707 01:08:33,738 --> 01:08:34,614 not the federal government. 1708 01:08:37,742 --> 01:08:40,161 And they should accept the responsibility 1709 01:08:40,203 --> 01:08:42,330 for that foolishness. 1710 01:08:42,372 --> 01:08:43,456 - Thanks so much. Appreciate it. 1711 01:08:43,498 --> 01:08:45,333 - My pleasure. - Okay. 1712 01:08:49,254 --> 01:08:51,506 - Believe it or not, he was right. 1713 01:08:51,548 --> 01:08:54,551 This mess was caused by damn fools. 1714 01:08:54,592 --> 01:08:56,344 Only it wasn't decent people 1715 01:08:56,386 --> 01:08:59,848 like Vivian, Alan, or Marcella, 1716 01:08:59,889 --> 01:09:01,766 but the damn fools in Washington 1717 01:09:01,808 --> 01:09:04,436 who turned a blind eye for decades 1718 01:09:04,477 --> 01:09:07,897 and never tried to stop it or fix it. 1719 01:09:07,939 --> 01:09:13,236 Now it was time for solutions. 1720 01:09:13,278 --> 01:09:15,655 The good news-- there's an easy way 1721 01:09:15,697 --> 01:09:17,782 to get help with your student debt. 1722 01:09:17,824 --> 01:09:19,617 Look what I found flipping channels one day. 1723 01:09:19,659 --> 01:09:20,869 - Hey, I'm Michael Torpey. 1724 01:09:20,910 --> 01:09:22,245 My show "Paid Off" is the only game show 1725 01:09:23,288 --> 01:09:24,497 working to end the student debt crisis. 1726 01:09:25,415 --> 01:09:27,334 - If you can't get on the show, 1727 01:09:27,375 --> 01:09:29,336 I saw another easy fix on "Ellen." 1728 01:09:29,377 --> 01:09:31,671 - Give you $50,000-- - Oh, my God! 1729 01:09:31,713 --> 01:09:32,881 - Well... 1730 01:09:32,922 --> 01:09:34,382 all: [chanting] Cancel student debt. 1731 01:09:35,467 --> 01:09:36,801 - There was always that cancellation idea. 1732 01:09:36,843 --> 01:09:38,678 - Somebody has to foot the bill. 1733 01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:40,305 - If you watched a certain network, 1734 01:09:41,598 --> 01:09:42,849 you might think the only ones who supported that idea 1735 01:09:44,267 --> 01:09:46,227 were crunchy liberal activists like this hippie. 1736 01:09:46,269 --> 01:09:48,730 - [laughs] No, I'm not a hippie. 1737 01:09:48,772 --> 01:09:50,357 You know, as I got older in life, 1738 01:09:50,398 --> 01:09:51,524 I wish I'd been one earlier. 1739 01:09:51,566 --> 01:09:53,401 - This is Wayne Johnson. 1740 01:09:53,443 --> 01:09:56,363 And his background is not what you'd expect. 1741 01:09:56,404 --> 01:09:58,448 - I was with the Trump administration. 1742 01:09:58,490 --> 01:09:59,866 - That's right. 1743 01:09:59,908 --> 01:10:01,868 Under Trump, Wayne oversaw the federal government's 1744 01:10:01,910 --> 01:10:03,787 Student Loan Program. 1745 01:10:03,828 --> 01:10:05,705 And from his position, he could see 1746 01:10:05,747 --> 01:10:09,042 just how insanely far gone the system had become. 1747 01:10:09,084 --> 01:10:12,837 What Wayne did next would become a big news story. 1748 01:10:12,879 --> 01:10:14,547 - A top official in the 1749 01:10:14,589 --> 01:10:15,965 federal Student Loan Program 1750 01:10:16,007 --> 01:10:17,676 resigning this week, 1751 01:10:17,717 --> 01:10:18,885 calling the system, 1752 01:10:18,927 --> 01:10:20,929 "fundamentally broken." - He quit. 1753 01:10:20,970 --> 01:10:23,056 And the conservative former Trump official 1754 01:10:23,098 --> 01:10:25,392 hit the media to unveil his plan 1755 01:10:25,433 --> 01:10:27,644 to cancel student debt. 1756 01:10:27,686 --> 01:10:29,938 - He would forgive more debt than plans proposed 1757 01:10:29,979 --> 01:10:31,564 by Democratic presidential contenders 1758 01:10:31,606 --> 01:10:33,400 like Elizabeth Warren. 1759 01:10:33,441 --> 01:10:36,027 - Hearing a Republican say he believed in debt cancellation 1760 01:10:36,319 --> 01:10:37,529 got some attention. 1761 01:10:37,570 --> 01:10:40,031 - If we don't fix it, what will happen? 1762 01:10:40,073 --> 01:10:41,241 - Well, if we don't fix it, we're gonna continue 1763 01:10:41,282 --> 01:10:44,828 to have an ever-increasing destruction 1764 01:10:44,869 --> 01:10:45,912 of the fabric of America. 1765 01:10:45,954 --> 01:10:48,081 I mean, it's that profound. 1766 01:10:48,123 --> 01:10:50,333 - Was Wayne sure he wasn't a hippie? 1767 01:10:50,375 --> 01:10:51,501 - No, I'm not a hippie. 1768 01:10:51,543 --> 01:10:53,336 I'm a pretty straightforward guy. 1769 01:10:53,378 --> 01:10:55,588 [upbeat percussive music] 1770 01:10:55,630 --> 01:10:56,881 - You guys were told, 1771 01:10:56,923 --> 01:10:58,591 this is what you need to do to get ahead. 1772 01:10:58,633 --> 01:11:01,344 And if you do it though, oh, actually, you're not ahead. 1773 01:11:01,386 --> 01:11:03,763 How does that make you feel that that promise is false? 1774 01:11:03,805 --> 01:11:06,599 - Well, the promise is false, but the solution is true. 1775 01:11:06,641 --> 01:11:08,977 - Okay. - For sure. 1776 01:11:09,019 --> 01:11:11,354 - Braxton and Wen joined the Debt Collective, 1777 01:11:11,396 --> 01:11:13,773 a group pushing for student debt cancellation 1778 01:11:13,815 --> 01:11:15,442 with a caveat. 1779 01:11:15,483 --> 01:11:18,028 - I mean, we advocate for full cancellation. 1780 01:11:18,069 --> 01:11:19,779 But, like, if the president were to cancel 1781 01:11:19,821 --> 01:11:21,322 all student debt tomorrow, we'd have 1782 01:11:21,364 --> 01:11:23,074 some student debt next semester. 1783 01:11:23,116 --> 01:11:26,369 And so how do we figure that out? 1784 01:11:26,411 --> 01:11:27,579 How do we solve that problem? 1785 01:11:27,620 --> 01:11:28,955 The answer is free college. 1786 01:11:28,997 --> 01:11:30,832 - Our parents, grandparents' generation, 1787 01:11:30,874 --> 01:11:32,667 they didn't go to free college. both: Yeah. 1788 01:11:32,709 --> 01:11:34,586 - With immigrant parents, it was like, 1789 01:11:34,627 --> 01:11:37,005 they work their whole lives to send their kids to school. 1790 01:11:37,047 --> 01:11:38,798 And we grew up, like, very rural China. 1791 01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,633 And the thing that they always say is, like, 1792 01:11:40,675 --> 01:11:42,886 there is more chances to thrive in the U.S. 1793 01:11:42,927 --> 01:11:45,889 So the paying of school wasn't a problem 1794 01:11:45,930 --> 01:11:47,599 they were thinking about. 1795 01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:49,351 They were like, we're going to do this no matter what. 1796 01:11:49,392 --> 01:11:50,685 Like, whatever it takes, we're going to pay 1797 01:11:50,727 --> 01:11:52,937 for whatever school I get into. 1798 01:11:52,979 --> 01:11:54,898 - And the only way to pay for college, 1799 01:11:54,939 --> 01:11:56,566 unless you're rich, is with a loan. 1800 01:11:56,608 --> 01:11:58,443 - Yeah. 1801 01:11:58,485 --> 01:12:00,487 - Meanwhile, as the cancellation discussion 1802 01:12:00,528 --> 01:12:02,989 heated up, Senator Durbin finally seemed to be 1803 01:12:03,031 --> 01:12:05,408 making progress on his bill to restore 1804 01:12:05,450 --> 01:12:06,826 bankruptcy protections. 1805 01:12:06,868 --> 01:12:08,411 - So I look forward to working with my colleagues 1806 01:12:08,453 --> 01:12:09,579 across the aisle to pass 1807 01:12:09,621 --> 01:12:11,831 the FRESH START Through Bankruptcy Act. 1808 01:12:11,873 --> 01:12:15,043 This is an issue that I have dealt with for a long time. 1809 01:12:15,085 --> 01:12:22,384 * * 1810 01:12:22,425 --> 01:12:24,177 - I'm gonna take you to my favorite coffee shop. 1811 01:12:24,219 --> 01:12:26,680 - Oh, cool. 1812 01:12:26,721 --> 01:12:28,515 I check back in with Alan 1813 01:12:28,556 --> 01:12:30,392 on this latest development that could finally 1814 01:12:30,433 --> 01:12:33,770 end his 17-year pursuit. 1815 01:12:33,812 --> 01:12:36,856 - We have a bipartisan bill, S.2598. 1816 01:12:36,898 --> 01:12:39,025 Dick Durbin is the sponsor. 1817 01:12:39,067 --> 01:12:40,860 - Wow. 1818 01:12:40,902 --> 01:12:43,071 - Today, I'm introducing a bill with Senator Cornyn. 1819 01:12:43,113 --> 01:12:45,448 I thank him for joining me in this bipartisan effort. 1820 01:12:45,490 --> 01:12:47,575 - This is an important issue. 1821 01:12:47,617 --> 01:12:48,993 And I think our bill, 1822 01:12:49,035 --> 01:12:50,704 the FRESH START Through Bankruptcy Act 1823 01:12:50,745 --> 01:12:53,123 will provide an important-- 1824 01:12:53,164 --> 01:12:54,791 important relief to students. 1825 01:12:54,833 --> 01:12:56,710 - Our bill would restore the ability 1826 01:12:56,751 --> 01:12:59,546 of student loan borrowers to discharge federal student loans 1827 01:12:59,587 --> 01:13:01,715 after a waiting period of ten years. 1828 01:13:01,756 --> 01:13:03,883 - This ten-year window would help students 1829 01:13:03,925 --> 01:13:08,471 without encouraging strategic bankruptcy. 1830 01:13:08,513 --> 01:13:09,931 - Uh, there's a ten-year waiting period, 1831 01:13:09,973 --> 01:13:11,641 which is not perfect, 1832 01:13:11,683 --> 01:13:14,769 but that is where the solution to this problem begins. 1833 01:13:16,938 --> 01:13:19,441 - So now that the bill had bipartisan support, 1834 01:13:19,482 --> 01:13:21,234 it might actually have a chance of passing. 1835 01:13:21,276 --> 01:13:23,069 Right? 1836 01:13:23,111 --> 01:13:24,821 Is that bill moving at all? 1837 01:13:24,863 --> 01:13:27,532 Is anything happening with that as far as you know? 1838 01:13:27,574 --> 01:13:29,492 - Uh... 1839 01:13:29,534 --> 01:13:31,995 well, I don't know. 1840 01:13:32,037 --> 01:13:33,705 - I mean, you're the foremost authority on this. 1841 01:13:33,747 --> 01:13:34,664 - I don't know. 1842 01:13:34,706 --> 01:13:35,707 - Okay. 1843 01:13:35,749 --> 01:13:36,833 - I think we're close. 1844 01:13:36,875 --> 01:13:38,543 But I don't know. 1845 01:13:40,128 --> 01:13:42,630 I got to get some cat food. 1846 01:13:42,672 --> 01:13:45,258 - I didn't blame Alan for feeling nervous about it. 1847 01:13:45,300 --> 01:13:48,219 After nearly two decades of fighting for change, 1848 01:13:48,261 --> 01:13:50,764 I wouldn't want to get my hopes up, either. 1849 01:13:50,805 --> 01:13:52,849 - Oh, sh--sorry about that. 1850 01:14:00,148 --> 01:14:02,609 - With a bipartisan bill introduced, 1851 01:14:02,650 --> 01:14:05,612 it was time to work every connection I had 1852 01:14:05,653 --> 01:14:08,156 to get a meeting with my former boss. 1853 01:14:08,198 --> 01:14:10,283 So we are in Washington D.C. now. 1854 01:14:10,325 --> 01:14:11,868 We're headed to the Capitol. 1855 01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:13,995 We're going to see Senator Schumer today. 1856 01:14:14,037 --> 01:14:16,581 And this is the guy who basically 1857 01:14:16,623 --> 01:14:17,874 can help actually solve this. 1858 01:14:17,916 --> 01:14:19,709 He's the Senate majority leader. 1859 01:14:19,751 --> 01:14:22,754 And no one gets access to talk to a senator like this, 1860 01:14:22,796 --> 01:14:25,757 and so I feel fortunate to be able to have that opportunity, 1861 01:14:25,799 --> 01:14:28,593 but it feels like trying to ask questions 1862 01:14:28,635 --> 01:14:30,178 for all those people who are going through this 1863 01:14:30,220 --> 01:14:31,971 and get answers to these questions 1864 01:14:32,013 --> 01:14:33,640 that affect all of them. 1865 01:14:33,682 --> 01:14:35,058 So that's sort of what's going through my head right now 1866 01:14:35,100 --> 01:14:37,686 is basically, don't screw this up. 1867 01:14:41,731 --> 01:14:44,401 This was my chance to get the Senate majority leader 1868 01:14:44,442 --> 01:14:45,694 on board with my mission. 1869 01:14:45,735 --> 01:14:48,363 [suspenseful music] 1870 01:14:48,405 --> 01:14:50,907 * * 1871 01:14:52,784 --> 01:14:54,619 - Hello. Good mask. 1872 01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:58,039 - Okay. 1873 01:15:00,125 --> 01:15:02,043 - I had just 20 minutes with the senator, 1874 01:15:02,085 --> 01:15:05,338 and I needed to use the time productively. 1875 01:15:05,380 --> 01:15:08,091 - Okay, we got to get moving, guy, we're taking too long. 1876 01:15:08,133 --> 01:15:09,634 - [indistinct] put in your pocket right here. 1877 01:15:09,676 --> 01:15:10,635 - Okay. Thank you. 1878 01:15:13,013 --> 01:15:14,389 - It's going to be three or four questions, easy stuff. 1879 01:15:14,431 --> 01:15:15,348 - Okay, good. 1880 01:15:18,143 --> 01:15:21,104 - Okay, Senator, there's 45 million people 1881 01:15:21,146 --> 01:15:22,981 with student debt in this country. 1882 01:15:23,023 --> 01:15:24,399 What was the tipping point for you? 1883 01:15:24,441 --> 01:15:27,110 What was the turning point where you realized, 1884 01:15:27,152 --> 01:15:28,778 this is an epic crisis? 1885 01:15:28,820 --> 01:15:30,655 - Whenever I walked around New York State, 1886 01:15:30,697 --> 01:15:33,033 not only young people, but middle-aged people, 1887 01:15:33,074 --> 01:15:36,369 grandparents were talking about the burden of debt. 1888 01:15:36,411 --> 01:15:39,831 "I didn't take the job I wanted because of student debt. 1889 01:15:39,873 --> 01:15:42,709 "I didn't get married because of student debt. 1890 01:15:42,751 --> 01:15:45,712 I had to move somewhere because of student debt." 1891 01:15:45,754 --> 01:15:49,466 It discombobulated people's lives in a significant way. 1892 01:15:49,507 --> 01:15:51,051 - For doing the right thing-- this is people-- 1893 01:15:51,092 --> 01:15:52,886 we tell them go, work hard, go to college, 1894 01:15:52,927 --> 01:15:54,012 get an education, and then boom. 1895 01:15:54,054 --> 01:15:55,138 - Exactly. 1896 01:15:55,180 --> 01:15:56,681 You know, when I went to college, 1897 01:15:56,723 --> 01:15:58,099 I didn't come from a wealthy home. 1898 01:15:58,141 --> 01:15:59,809 I worked my way through school. 1899 01:15:59,851 --> 01:16:01,811 But I got out of school debt-free. 1900 01:16:01,853 --> 01:16:03,938 And what's happened over the years is, 1901 01:16:03,980 --> 01:16:06,733 this thing is just spun out of control. 1902 01:16:06,775 --> 01:16:09,986 I've been pushing President Biden to do this. 1903 01:16:10,028 --> 01:16:11,321 - To do what? 1904 01:16:11,363 --> 01:16:12,364 When you say to do this, what do you mean? 1905 01:16:12,405 --> 01:16:14,157 - To cancel $50,000 of student debt. 1906 01:16:14,199 --> 01:16:15,825 He can do it with the flick of a pen. 1907 01:16:15,867 --> 01:16:19,245 No legislation, no going to Mitch McConnell, 1908 01:16:19,287 --> 01:16:22,749 who isn't for this anyway, but just doing it on his own. 1909 01:16:22,791 --> 01:16:25,710 I'm gonna wear this mask on the floor of the Senate 1910 01:16:25,752 --> 01:16:28,254 until President Biden signs that document 1911 01:16:28,296 --> 01:16:29,798 in the White House that says 1912 01:16:29,839 --> 01:16:32,342 $50,000 of student debt is canceled. 1913 01:16:32,384 --> 01:16:34,761 - You're the Senate majority leader, very powerful person. 1914 01:16:34,803 --> 01:16:36,846 Why do you want to have the president do it 1915 01:16:36,888 --> 01:16:38,139 instead of going legislatively? 1916 01:16:38,181 --> 01:16:39,182 Are there are certain roadblocks... 1917 01:16:39,224 --> 01:16:40,308 - Well, yes. - That make it harder? 1918 01:16:40,350 --> 01:16:42,852 - In the Senate, you would need 60 votes 1919 01:16:42,894 --> 01:16:44,896 to cancel the student debt. 1920 01:16:44,938 --> 01:16:46,856 That would mean getting some Republican votes. 1921 01:16:46,898 --> 01:16:48,400 And the Republicans-- we haven't found 1922 01:16:48,441 --> 01:16:50,110 any Republican supporters. 1923 01:16:50,151 --> 01:16:52,153 Frankly, we don't have every single Democrat 1924 01:16:52,195 --> 01:16:53,488 on board for this. 1925 01:16:53,530 --> 01:16:55,365 So if I had to put it on the Senate floor, 1926 01:16:55,407 --> 01:16:58,076 it would be a struggle, and it might not pass. 1927 01:16:58,118 --> 01:17:00,203 - Well, I knew about one proposal that already 1928 01:17:00,245 --> 01:17:02,747 had bipartisan support. 1929 01:17:02,789 --> 01:17:05,291 Senator Durbin has a bill that would make it so that 1930 01:17:05,333 --> 01:17:07,794 student debt can finally be discharged through bankruptcy 1931 01:17:07,836 --> 01:17:09,295 the way every other-- if you're delinquent 1932 01:17:09,337 --> 01:17:10,755 on your income taxes-- 1933 01:17:10,797 --> 01:17:12,465 - You know, the debt-- the debt-- 1934 01:17:12,507 --> 01:17:15,552 the deck is stacked against the kids, against the students. 1935 01:17:15,593 --> 01:17:17,137 - Wait a minute. 1936 01:17:17,178 --> 01:17:19,055 Had Durbin not lobbied him about the bill? 1937 01:17:19,097 --> 01:17:20,390 Yeah, so let me ask you this. 1938 01:17:20,432 --> 01:17:21,516 So Senator Durbin has this bill that 1939 01:17:21,558 --> 01:17:23,268 would reverse that provision. 1940 01:17:23,309 --> 01:17:26,396 - Hey, listen, it's something I would obviously look at. 1941 01:17:26,438 --> 01:17:28,982 - I had to get this on the senator's radar. 1942 01:17:29,024 --> 01:17:31,234 Just to tell you, the 1998 Higher Education Act 1943 01:17:31,276 --> 01:17:32,777 passed unanimously. 1944 01:17:32,819 --> 01:17:34,237 The Higher Education Act, good bill-- 1945 01:17:34,279 --> 01:17:36,865 at the very last minute, someone snuck in 1946 01:17:36,906 --> 01:17:38,241 a two-line provision that said 1947 01:17:38,283 --> 01:17:39,993 you can't discharge your student debt 1948 01:17:40,035 --> 01:17:41,119 through bankruptcy. - Really? 1949 01:17:41,161 --> 01:17:43,121 - And we found-- - From some bank. 1950 01:17:43,163 --> 01:17:44,164 - We were trying to figure out where it came from. 1951 01:17:44,205 --> 01:17:45,582 - Who? 1952 01:17:45,623 --> 01:17:47,584 - It turns out the person whose idea it was, 1953 01:17:47,625 --> 01:17:50,170 was a bureaucrat at the Department of Education. 1954 01:17:50,211 --> 01:17:53,381 And that guy now is a truck driver in Colorado. 1955 01:17:53,423 --> 01:17:55,216 - Oh, what a great thing. 1956 01:17:55,258 --> 01:17:56,843 - So I mean, I thought I'd tell you that. 1957 01:17:56,885 --> 01:17:58,303 But knowing what you know about D.C., 1958 01:17:58,345 --> 01:17:59,346 does that surprise you, that story, 1959 01:18:00,472 --> 01:18:01,139 that somebody like that-- - It still does. 1960 01:18:02,599 --> 01:18:02,640 Yeah, something like that, because that's really weird. 1961 01:18:03,058 --> 01:18:03,558 - Yeah. 1962 01:18:04,517 --> 01:18:04,976 Thank you so much for your time. 1963 01:18:06,186 --> 01:18:06,227 - Okay. Let's take this off. - Appreciate it. 1964 01:18:07,228 --> 01:18:08,313 - I'm running late for my lunch. 1965 01:18:08,355 --> 01:18:09,564 - So Senator Durbin has this bill that 1966 01:18:09,606 --> 01:18:11,107 would reverse that provision. 1967 01:18:11,149 --> 01:18:12,192 So now, you would be able to get rid of that debt 1968 01:18:12,233 --> 01:18:13,860 through bankruptcy. - Yeah. 1969 01:18:13,902 --> 01:18:16,196 - And Senators Cornyn and Hawley just joined 1970 01:18:16,237 --> 01:18:17,322 and said they would be for that. 1971 01:18:17,364 --> 01:18:18,406 So that's got a bipartisan-- 1972 01:18:21,493 --> 01:18:23,286 - Yeah, thanks. - Okay, terrific. 1973 01:18:23,328 --> 01:18:24,496 - Thanks again. Appreciate it. 1974 01:18:25,914 --> 01:18:27,415 - I'll email your staff about the bankruptcy thing. 1975 01:18:28,833 --> 01:18:30,085 - Yeah, thank you. - Sir? 1976 01:18:33,129 --> 01:18:34,381 - And good to see you too. 1977 01:18:34,422 --> 01:18:35,965 Appreciate it. 1978 01:18:39,511 --> 01:18:42,430 This was big. 1979 01:18:42,472 --> 01:18:45,475 I couldn't wait to call Alan back in Wisconsin. 1980 01:18:45,517 --> 01:18:46,393 How you doing? 1981 01:18:47,977 --> 01:18:49,020 - We met with Schumer. 1982 01:18:50,855 --> 01:18:52,107 - Yeah. 1983 01:18:52,148 --> 01:18:54,359 I asked him about bankruptcy. 1984 01:18:54,401 --> 01:18:56,194 Do you know about this bill that Durbin's got 1985 01:18:56,236 --> 01:18:58,488 that, like, Cornyn and Hawley are on right now? 1986 01:18:58,530 --> 01:19:01,116 And he didn't seem to fully be aware of the bill. 1987 01:19:04,369 --> 01:19:06,162 - Well, listen. He seemed very amenable. 1988 01:19:06,204 --> 01:19:07,997 He was into it on the merits and the substance 1989 01:19:08,039 --> 01:19:09,207 and all that kind of stuff. 1990 01:19:09,249 --> 01:19:10,125 I think he's gonna like, look into it. 1991 01:19:12,961 --> 01:19:15,005 - Well, listen. It's on his radar now. 1992 01:19:15,046 --> 01:19:16,381 And I'm gonna send it to his team tonight. 1993 01:19:16,423 --> 01:19:19,384 And it's better off than we were three hours ago. 1994 01:19:27,183 --> 01:19:30,311 [inquisitive music] 1995 01:19:30,353 --> 01:19:33,314 * * 1996 01:19:33,356 --> 01:19:35,066 - Not long after my meeting with Senator Schumer... 1997 01:19:37,068 --> 01:19:39,070 - He continued to bang the drum for cancellation... 1998 01:19:41,114 --> 01:19:42,407 - At a press conference on student debt. 1999 01:19:45,035 --> 01:19:47,370 - But what most didn't notice was a response he gave 2000 01:19:47,412 --> 01:19:49,956 in the post-conference Q&A. 2001 01:19:49,998 --> 01:19:51,583 "It's outrageous," he said, 2002 01:19:51,624 --> 01:19:54,002 "that other people get to declare bankruptcy, 2003 01:19:54,044 --> 01:19:56,504 but students can't." 2004 01:19:56,546 --> 01:19:59,299 This was exciting. 2005 01:19:59,341 --> 01:20:01,968 With real momentum on the bankruptcy issue, 2006 01:20:02,010 --> 01:20:04,554 it was time to speak with the man himself, 2007 01:20:04,596 --> 01:20:05,972 Senator Dick Durbin. 2008 01:20:07,682 --> 01:20:08,683 - Hello. 2009 01:20:12,645 --> 01:20:14,272 - Right here. Please, sir. 2010 01:20:14,314 --> 01:20:15,440 Watch your step. 2011 01:20:19,402 --> 01:20:20,612 - Nice to meet you. I'm Blake. 2012 01:20:22,322 --> 01:20:24,282 - Well, thanks for sitting with us. 2013 01:20:24,324 --> 01:20:26,368 We are focused on student debt, 2014 01:20:26,409 --> 01:20:28,620 particularly the issue of bankruptcy. 2015 01:20:28,661 --> 01:20:31,623 The 1998 Higher Education Act, 2016 01:20:31,664 --> 01:20:34,042 there was a one or two-line provision that was snuck in. 2017 01:20:34,084 --> 01:20:35,085 And you were in Congress at the time. 2018 01:20:35,126 --> 01:20:36,503 Do you remember that? 2019 01:20:36,544 --> 01:20:38,546 - It really was not even publicized. 2020 01:20:38,588 --> 01:20:41,132 It was not brought to the attention of most members. 2021 01:20:41,174 --> 01:20:43,259 It wasn't until it was all over, 2022 01:20:43,301 --> 01:20:45,136 you look back and say, oh, my God. 2023 01:20:45,178 --> 01:20:47,472 Two lines in a bill changed the lives 2024 01:20:47,514 --> 01:20:49,265 of millions of Americans. 2025 01:20:49,307 --> 01:20:50,684 - You are the person who has been pushing 2026 01:20:50,725 --> 01:20:52,310 for a solution to this. 2027 01:20:52,352 --> 01:20:53,812 You have a bill that would essentially reverse this. 2028 01:20:53,853 --> 01:20:55,605 - Yes. 2029 01:20:55,647 --> 01:20:59,150 - Does this bill have a chance of actually getting passed? 2030 01:20:59,192 --> 01:21:01,653 - If you take a look at the composition of the Senate, 2031 01:21:01,695 --> 01:21:05,281 and you look for odd couples, certainly, 2032 01:21:05,323 --> 01:21:09,202 Dick Durbin and John Cornyn of Texas would be an odd couple. 2033 01:21:09,244 --> 01:21:11,663 I like John, but we don't agree on much. 2034 01:21:11,705 --> 01:21:13,498 But we put a bill together. 2035 01:21:13,540 --> 01:21:16,167 It says there would reach a point after ten years 2036 01:21:16,209 --> 01:21:17,669 of your student loan, where you can 2037 01:21:17,711 --> 01:21:19,212 discharge it in bankruptcy. 2038 01:21:19,254 --> 01:21:20,630 - Now, you mentioned Senator Cornyn, 2039 01:21:20,672 --> 01:21:22,382 and I think that's important. 2040 01:21:22,424 --> 01:21:25,093 Senator Hawley, I understand, is also supporting this bill. 2041 01:21:25,135 --> 01:21:28,179 So you have a real bipartisan group of senators 2042 01:21:28,221 --> 01:21:29,347 that you've put together. 2043 01:21:29,389 --> 01:21:30,849 Do we have the votes for this? 2044 01:21:30,890 --> 01:21:33,351 - First things first-- committees. 2045 01:21:33,393 --> 01:21:35,311 The bill has to go through the committee. 2046 01:21:35,353 --> 01:21:37,522 - I wanted to get a pledge from the senator 2047 01:21:37,564 --> 01:21:40,275 that he'd move the bill to the committee ASAP. 2048 01:21:40,316 --> 01:21:43,361 Bringing it to the committee-- you're the chair. 2049 01:21:43,403 --> 01:21:45,572 - Luckily, I'm chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, 2050 01:21:45,613 --> 01:21:48,324 and John Cornyn sits on the committee, Hawley as well. 2051 01:21:48,366 --> 01:21:50,410 So the three of us is a starting point. 2052 01:21:50,452 --> 01:21:53,079 We need 12 votes to report it out of the committee. 2053 01:21:53,121 --> 01:21:54,372 - And you're saying you're determined 2054 01:21:54,414 --> 01:21:55,832 to do that this session? - Yes. 2055 01:21:55,874 --> 01:21:58,168 - That's terrific. 2056 01:21:58,209 --> 01:21:59,753 - Easier said than done in the Senate. 2057 01:21:59,794 --> 01:22:01,880 When you say you want to bring an idea to the floor, 2058 01:22:01,921 --> 01:22:05,383 then we have to beg Schumer to give us a niche, 2059 01:22:05,425 --> 01:22:07,510 a piece of the calendar so that we can call the bill. 2060 01:22:07,552 --> 01:22:10,221 It takes some time, you know? 2061 01:22:10,263 --> 01:22:11,598 - I don't know if you know this already. 2062 01:22:11,639 --> 01:22:13,475 We spoke to Schumer very recently. 2063 01:22:13,516 --> 01:22:15,852 And he said he's now very interested in this. 2064 01:22:15,894 --> 01:22:17,479 And he seemed open to it. 2065 01:22:17,520 --> 01:22:19,105 I don't think it was really on his radar. 2066 01:22:19,147 --> 01:22:21,441 And then just a couple of days ago, he was quoted 2067 01:22:21,483 --> 01:22:23,234 saying, "Oh, absolutely. 2068 01:22:23,276 --> 01:22:24,819 "People who have student debt should be able 2069 01:22:24,861 --> 01:22:25,987 to discharge it through bankruptcy." 2070 01:22:27,447 --> 01:22:28,698 So I'm giving you a tip that I think that if you get it 2071 01:22:28,740 --> 01:22:31,409 through your committee, his eyes are more open 2072 01:22:31,451 --> 01:22:34,245 on this bill than I think he used to be. 2073 01:22:34,287 --> 01:22:35,747 - We absolutely need him. 2074 01:22:35,789 --> 01:22:38,166 He decides which bills come before the Senate. 2075 01:22:38,208 --> 01:22:40,752 And his personal commitment is essential. 2076 01:22:40,794 --> 01:22:41,920 - I don't want to give people false hope. 2077 01:22:41,961 --> 01:22:43,254 But do you really think there's a chance? 2078 01:22:43,296 --> 01:22:44,589 - I think there is a chance. 2079 01:22:44,631 --> 01:22:46,383 And we're going to try everything 2080 01:22:46,424 --> 01:22:49,135 legitimately possible to move this bill 2081 01:22:49,177 --> 01:22:50,845 through the Senate this year. 2082 01:22:50,887 --> 01:22:52,305 - Thank you very much. - Thank you. 2083 01:22:52,347 --> 01:22:53,598 - I appreciate it. Thanks for your time. 2084 01:22:54,974 --> 01:22:55,350 Your discussions with Schumer might be different, 2085 01:22:56,434 --> 01:22:57,310 but when I met with him in November, 2086 01:22:58,520 --> 01:22:58,895 he was like, oh, I'm definitely open to it, 2087 01:22:59,771 --> 01:23:00,480 and I got him the information. 2088 01:23:01,856 --> 01:23:02,482 And on Friday, I was shocked. I read this article. 2089 01:23:04,109 --> 01:23:04,526 It said Schumer was asked about bankruptcy for student loans. 2090 01:23:05,527 --> 01:23:06,152 And he's--and he was-- the talk-- 2091 01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:07,779 he was right on message, whereas when I met 2092 01:23:08,905 --> 01:23:09,698 him a couple of months ago, he wasn't. 2093 01:23:10,865 --> 01:23:11,324 So I'll send it to Teresa if that's okay. 2094 01:23:12,325 --> 01:23:13,660 - Okay. Thank you, Senator. 2095 01:23:13,702 --> 01:23:14,911 Thanks so much, Teresa. - Thanks [indistinct]. 2096 01:23:14,953 --> 01:23:15,829 - Awesome. Thank you. 2097 01:23:17,956 --> 01:23:19,207 - Something major just happened. 2098 01:23:19,249 --> 01:23:20,417 - Yeah. 2099 01:23:20,458 --> 01:23:21,793 - I don't know if that was evident. 2100 01:23:21,835 --> 01:23:23,628 Probably sounded like a boring conversation, but-- 2101 01:23:23,670 --> 01:23:25,880 I knew things moved at a glacial pace in the Senate, 2102 01:23:25,922 --> 01:23:29,175 but this felt like actual progress. 2103 01:23:29,217 --> 01:23:30,593 - Hello? - Alan, it's Blake. 2104 01:23:31,845 --> 01:23:33,638 - I just finished talking with Durbin. 2105 01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:36,891 And I have a pretty big update. 2106 01:23:36,933 --> 01:23:38,810 I said, I think Schumer is convinced. 2107 01:23:38,852 --> 01:23:41,730 And he said, he pledged to me, that he will bring it 2108 01:23:41,771 --> 01:23:43,690 to a committee this session. 2109 01:23:50,613 --> 01:23:52,198 - Stuff is happening. 2110 01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:58,872 * * 2111 01:23:59,789 --> 01:24:02,751 [marching band playing "America the Beautiful"] 2112 01:24:02,792 --> 01:24:09,716 * * 2113 01:24:41,873 --> 01:24:44,376 - We are poor because of our student loans. 2114 01:24:44,417 --> 01:24:46,044 - I mean, it makes me angry. 2115 01:24:46,086 --> 01:24:49,005 ["You're a Grand Old Flag"] 2116 01:24:49,047 --> 01:24:50,590 * * 2117 01:24:50,632 --> 01:24:52,634 singers: * You're a grand old flag * 2118 01:24:52,676 --> 01:24:54,636 * You're a high-flying flag * 2119 01:24:54,678 --> 01:24:58,765 * And forever in peace may you wave * 2120 01:24:58,807 --> 01:25:01,059 * You're the emblem of * 2121 01:25:01,101 --> 01:25:03,395 * The land I love * 2122 01:25:03,436 --> 01:25:06,981 * The home of the free and the brave * 2123 01:25:07,023 --> 01:25:09,401 * Every heart beats true for the... * 2124 01:25:09,442 --> 01:25:11,820 - Here's all the paperwork from Sallie Mae, 2125 01:25:11,861 --> 01:25:14,406 deferment requests that were rejected. 2126 01:25:14,447 --> 01:25:17,450 Fuck off. 2127 01:25:17,492 --> 01:25:19,994 I'm protesting. I'm burning it all. 2128 01:25:20,036 --> 01:25:23,957 singers: * Keep your eyes on the grand old flag * 2129 01:25:23,998 --> 01:25:26,376 * Every heart beats true * 2130 01:25:26,418 --> 01:25:28,086 * For the red, white, and blue * 2131 01:25:28,128 --> 01:25:32,007 * Where there's never a boast or brag * 2132 01:25:32,048 --> 01:25:36,052 * Should old acquaintance be forgot * 2133 01:25:36,094 --> 01:25:40,056 * Keep your eyes on the grand old flag * 2134 01:25:40,098 --> 01:25:42,392 * Every heart beats true * 2135 01:25:42,434 --> 01:25:44,436 * For the red, white, and blue * 2136 01:25:44,477 --> 01:25:48,440 * Where there's never a boast or brag * 2137 01:25:48,481 --> 01:25:52,485 * Should old acquaintance be forgot * 2138 01:25:52,527 --> 01:25:54,612 * Keep your eyes on * 2139 01:25:54,654 --> 01:26:00,493 * The grand old flag * 2140 01:26:01,661 --> 01:26:03,496 [cheers and applause] 2141 01:26:03,538 --> 01:26:05,123 - Hey, hey, hey! - All right. 2142 01:26:05,165 --> 01:26:06,916 - It worked out again. 2143 01:26:06,958 --> 01:26:08,918 - Anytime we start together and end together, we celebrate. 2144 01:26:08,960 --> 01:26:11,504 [applause] 2145 01:26:11,546 --> 01:26:14,466 [inquisitive music] 2146 01:26:14,507 --> 01:26:21,473 * *