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So why the long face, Horse?
I'm just having a little girl trouble.
Bitch pressing charges?
I get that a lot.
Holden McNeil was set in his ways.
The way he worked, the way he lived,
and the way he thought love should be.
But then she showed up.
Miramax Films presents a comedy that tells it like it feels.
She's been around and seen things
we've only read about in books.
- What'd you do last night? - Got lucky.
"Chasing Amy."
And now, at last, we come to what at least I think
is the only good movie on this week's show.
It's called "Chasing Amy,"
and it was written and directed by Kevin Smith,
who made a name for himself a few years ago
with a very low budget comedy named "Clerks."
Now he's back with "Chasing Amy,"
which is a terrific film--
well written, well acted-- about a love affair
that forces a comic book artist
to question all of his ideas about himself.
Do you understand why I love this movie so much?
No.
Give us a quick, you know, thumbnail sketch of the plot.
It's about a guy who falls in love with a lesbian.
I love you.
Finds out she's had heterosexual relationships
and can't deal with that.
I want us to be something that we can't be.
And what's that?
A normal couple.
In the late '90s, it was still an occasion
to have a really big queer film come out.
And this was big.
Ultimately, it made $12 million in the box office.
There was Hollywood, and then there's independent film.
And when an independent film broke through,
everybody noticed.
It's extremely personalized, extremely good.
I've never really seen a romantic comedy
like it ever in my life.
It's a well-crafted film that came out
in that great '90s era of indie filmmaking.
Kevin Smith definitely was one of the young kings
of independent film.
"'Chasing Amy' is obviously a personal film for Smith--
a chance to work through his masculinity issues on screen."
I do know that he's talked about it being based on a relationship
that he had at one time.
You got this Golden Globe nomination.
- Are you excited? - I am. I'm very excited.
If I wrote about real life, "Chasing Amy" would be all about
the fact that I couldn't stand that
my girlfriend at the time had went to Bali
when she was younger and I didn't.
I think he was being true to himself
and being as true as he could to the the subject matter.
It directly addressed issues of intersectionality,
sociopolitical issues,
and really looked at identity politics
in a way that most films hadn't.
It's oh-so acceptable to be a gay girl nowadays.
People think it's cute.
Do you find the film to be authentic
to the LGBTQ community?
No, I find it to be authentic to the straight white dude
who happens to fall for a queer woman community.
This is a movie about a woman who is a lesbian
and decides to be with a man.
I'm like, "You know, that's, uh, gonna be controversial."
There are some people that inevitably are going to see
a lesbian no longer being a lesbian
by meeting "the right man" and rejecting that entirely.
Set aside the notion that any lesbian
can be magically turned straight if the right guy comes along.
What's extra offensive in hindsight
is the idea that that guy would be Ben Affleck.
When I first saw the movie, like,
I thought it was kind of dumb but harmless.
That would have been excellent for the poster tagline--
Dumb but Harmless.
There were some people in the community
who did not appreciate the ambiguity, the subtlety.
There were a lot of question marks in that film.
I mean, it's not rocket science.
A straight man tells a lesbian story,
and now everyone's paying attention.
I hear the word problematic with "Chasing Amy" a lot.
Is it bad that it's problematic?
Is it okay that it's kind of divisive?
Did you see that? Your dyke-courting ass
just got me scored on.
Sometimes something that's problematic can still mean
a lot in your development.
It was, I think, a brave film at the time
to portray somebody who's... fluid.
I know that there's a lot of controversy
about these older gay films, but at the same time,
like, it meant something to you as a filmmaker
and, like, that is, like, an undeniable thing.
I do have more respect for this film than I thought I did,
less because of how it's put together
and more for what it was able to do
for people like you.
I do have a question--
why do you want to make this movie?
When I was 12,
I exclusively wanted to watch Ben Affleck movies.
It's an incredibly specific thing for a child to demand.
But Ben Affleck was the star
of the 2003 superhero film "Daredevil."
Naturally, I was in love with him.
One day, while raiding my family's movie collection,
I came across an unfamiliar box with Mr. Affleck's face on it.
The title read "Chasing Amy."
"Chasing Amy" had everything that I wanted.
The characters were comic book writers.
They spoke in romantic monologues
about the kind of love that only seemed to exist in movies.
And there were openly queer people,
and I didn't realize what a big deal that would be for me.
Around this time, I entered junior high school.
Young me did not have it particularly easy.
While I was lucky to have a few people
that I could call friends, I often felt isolated,
but wasn't really sure why.
In one violent incident in the seventh grade,
a group of boys surrounded me as I waited for my mom
to pick me up after school.
I regarded these kids as my friends.
So imagine my shock when they started pushing me,
threatening me and hurling words
like "dyke," "queer," and "faggot" at me.
I had never heard the word "dyke" before in my life.
This wasn't the last time
I'd encounter homophobia as an adolescent,
but it was the first time
I realized just how I was being othered.
See, it sucks when everyone else
knows you're queer before you do,
because then you don't have anything
to protect yourself with.
These young men weaponized my perceived sexuality against me.
Back then, there were virtually no consequences
for homophobic bullying in Kansas.
But I did have this one movie.
I had a movie where the gay and lesbian characters were good.
They were intelligent and funny and out.
They were able to live as their authentic selves.
And you know what? The spirit of "Chasing Amy"
kept me alive for years to come, despite the suicidal thoughts
that began to permeate from the trauma
I was continuously experiencing at school.
No matter what I was dealing with,
I had this one movie to bring me solace.
I once kept this movie in my DVD player for a month.
I would watch it at least once a day every day for 30 days.
Now, to be fair,
I didn't know that there were other gay movies.
Nowadays, I'm a filmmaker,
and because I can't seem to shake this topic,
I'm now directing a project
about the legacy of "Chasing Amy" as an LGBTQ film.
It's by far the most dramatic way of saying "thank you"
I could possibly think of.
Thank you.
The whole store, like, looks the same.
It feels like I'm stepping into, like, a time capsule
- in the best way. - Yeah.
You know, all the racks are the same.
I don't think the T-shirts or the books were over there.
No.
And over here was cassingles,
which kind of dates it pretty badly, but, uh...
But the exterior, the carpet.
Oh, yeah. It really feels like
I watched the movie and then just, like, walked over here.
Maybe what's really troubling you
is that your fragile fantasy might not be true.
You remember that,
♪ Never will forget this, never ♪
I want to get the rights to that song
and just, like, do a montage of this whole day.
♪ Never will forget this, I
♪ Never will, never will, never will forget this ♪
♪ Never will forget this, I
♪ Never will, never will, never will forget this ♪
♪ Never will forget this, I
♪ Never will, never will, never will forget this ♪
Hey. Hey!
♪ Never will forget this, I
♪ Never will, never will, never will forget this ♪
Wow.
I'm a little nervous.
I didn't know what I expected.
I did not expect all this. This is cool.
- Ta da da! - Oh, my.
Oh, my God.
That's the original piece right up there.
Did they ever make, like, a full "Chasing Amy" comic?
Does that exist somewhere?
- No. - Okay.
Just the last page and the cover.
Right.
I feel like I know as much about "Chasing Amy"
without knowing Kevin or actually physically
- being present, and so. - Gotcha.
Everybody else's question in my life is, like,
why are you doing this?
It's to pay tribute to this movie,
but also to see why do LGBTQ people not like this movie
and, like, what makes good representation.
It's an honest movie, if nothing else.
- Yes. - It's shown from--
from Kevin's point of view.
Seeing that movie, like, I was like,
"Oh, this is an option."
I am gay or I am straight, basically, right?
Yeah. You had one of two options.
Yeah.
Like, and now, more people are coming out today more than ever,
but they're coming out as, like, bisexual/pansexual.
You know, there's been a total shift in the mindset.
And "Chasing Amy" helped me, like,
figure out that, "Oh, that's me."
A lot of people love "Chasing Amy" just for that,
that it was so honest and so raw.
Yeah.
- Do you like the movie? - Love it.
I love all of Kevin's movies,
even the ones that nobody else likes.
Holy shit.
I don't even.
What do you even push?
- Uh... I don't know. - Knock, I suppose.
All right.
- Oh, wow. Hi. Hi. - Hi. I'm Emily.
Hey, nice to meet you.
This is Brad. Wow.
Holy shit!
This is bonkers.
Hello? Oh, my God.
Oh, my God. How are you?
So good. Welcome to the house that Amy built in many ways.
This is amazing.
She friendly? He friendly?
She's very. She's just crippled as hell.
That's from "Chasing Amy."
Chasing Amy was fucking pivotal
because it changed me as a filmmaker,
it changed me as a professional,
it changed me as a human being and stuff.
It is kind of the movie without which nothing else
fucking happens.
I'm just so fucking happy you made that movie.
I mean, it's-- You and me both.
I mean, I can't--
I don't want to cry because I'm an ugly crier.
But-- You and me both.
We're both, uh-- I know you cry pretty easily
from the Internet. All the time.
Oh, my God.
I love that you're a dude that, like,
feels his feelings. That dude wouldn't exist
were it not for "Chasing Amy."
Like... "This dude wouldn't exist
if not for 'Chasing Amy.'"
That's funny.
Where is she at?
She says she's coming out. Where are you?
Anyway, I'm more excited. I'm not nervous.
And I know I didn't forget how to kiss, but...
I got you these flowers.
To your right, sorry. To your right.
That is just too-- that's too far over.
That's too far. That's still too far.
It's off center. It looks weird.
Oh, my God. Filmmakers.
- Is that fine? - That should be okay.
Okay. If not, I can always take it off.
- The key to my heart? - Yeah.
You're gonna take it off?
You could have given me an engagement ring already.
Yep.
I'm Riley, and I'm Sav's girlfriend.
Yeah! Finger cuffs.
We've known each other for, like, seven years maybe.
That's gay.
We met each other when we were very little.
Okay.
It feels like a long time ago.
When I was 17 and you were 18.
- We met online. - Whoo!
On Tumblr.
You got to move your shoulders, too, though.
- I did. - You did it terribly.
We were nerdy teenagers that liked "Glee,"
and we became friends.
Oh, oh, and we bonded over your lies.
- My lies? - Yeah.
I was like, "Oh, my God, I love 'Lord of the Rings.'"
And you were like, "Oh my God,
I love 'Lord of the Rings,' too."
Little did I know, you had no idea
what you were talking about.
No, I really liked you and wanted to be your friend,
so I lied about liking "Lord of the Rings."
This whole relationship is based on a lie.
Yeah, you were like, "Oh, I want to name my dog 'Gimli.'"
And I was like, "Gimli?" And you were like,
"From 'Lord of the Rings.'" Everybody knows that.
I was like, "Oh, shit. I've been caught."
I wanted you to be my friend really bad,
and I thought that if I didn't like "Lord of the Rings,"
you wouldn't want to talk to me anymore.
We followed each other,
and one day, we started messaging each other on the--
on the website, and then one day,
I was going to be away from my computer
and I just couldn't stand the thought
of not talking to you for that long.
I think it was, like, a long weekend or something,
and I was just like, "Okay, this is a little weird,
but, you know, can you give me your number?
I'll give you mine, and we can text."
That was, like, a kind of a crucial step
to our relationship-- as friends, at this point.
Check this out.
There's a "Chasing Amy" hat down there.
- Yeah, I see it. - And then there's a--
I think that's French?
- A French VHS of "Chasing Amy." - Yeah.
And I told Kevin, I was like,
"Oh, man, you have the hat at the store."
And he's like, "Do you want it?"
And I was like, "Kevin, that's your hat.
I don't need it."
Why didn't you say yes?
If Kevin wants to get me a hat, he can get me a hat,
but I'm not going to take the one from the store.
Get on it, Kevin.
Lovely. Lovely.
That's just me.
Fucking look at that.
- Are you in it? - Yeah.
I think that's smart.
I mean, I'm not thrilled about it, necessarily.
No, I think that's smart.
But-- You had me at "Hello."
- All right, sound. - Rolling.
- Cameras. - Speed. Speed.
That speed? Okay.
K1, Take 1-- soft sticks.
Can you take me through the genesis
of creating "Chasing Amy?"
"Chasing Amy" is a weird bouillabaisse, right?
Like, for years, I've told a version of, you know,
why that movie happened, and they're all true,
but it's more like all of them rather than any one single path.
Donald, my brother, being gay plays a big part
in what "Chasing Amy" becomes.
When I told my brother I wanted to be a filmmaker, I said,
"What about movies?
It must be irritating to sit through a fucking movie
where two people that you don't identify with, like,
fucking fall in love."
And he goes, "Well, I can identify with love."
You had me at "Hello."
"But yeah, it's weird that 99% of the things that I go out
to see are about straight people."
I committed in my head in that moment,
I'm always going to fucking try to whip in
a little gay content for Don. Then I got Scott Mosier,
and this has everything to do with where
"Chasing Amy" comes from.
When we met in film school, we were just like,
"Hey, like, you write a movie, I'll write a movie,
and then we'll go make it." I wrote some piece of shit,
and he wrote "Clerks."
So I finished "Clerks" first, and he came down and kind of
got trapped into the role of de facto producer.
To go back to the very, very beginning,
we make "Clerks"
and we get into Sundance,
and John Pierson is repping the film,
and he's also repping a film called "Go Fish,"
which was written by Guinevere Turner
and directed by Rose Troche.
My name is Guinevere Turner.
I am a screenwriter, a filmmaker, an actress,
a lover, a warrior, and a warrior princess.
Everyone was looking forward to "Go Fish."
Everyone knew about the avant garde,
black and white lesbian movie and stuff.
Our movie was-- like, there was no buzz whatsoever.
"Clerks" and "Go Fish," which was my first film, are--
They're basically, like, siblings
in the indie film world of the '90s.
They are black and white.
They are endless chatter that only the people
who are being represented would care about.
It's all about everybody being on your side, as well.
It's not only about romance.
It's about having good friends, and it's about having people
rooting for you, you know?
And yeah, those are things that-- those are-- I think
that's what makes it a universal film.
"Go Fish" comes out of a very instinctive need to be, like,
"What the fuck?"
Where are we in lesbian movies?
We weren't even outraged, we were so young.
We were confused about, like, why haven't we seen ourselves?
The girls were on fire because their movie
was playing long before ours and stuff.
So we started hanging out with them there.
But, you know, Scott's, like, funny and charming--
like, way more funny and charming than me, to be honest.
And so him and Gwen, like, hit it off instantly.
I became incredibly smitten or sort of,
like, enthralled with Guinevere Turner.
I just developed what I can only call
a romantic friendship with Scott Mosier,
who was just-- is just a lovely person.
Like, Kevin is a smart ass, asshole, wonderful fuck face.
Scott Mosier is the yin to that yang.
He'd go up to the city and hang out with Gwen,
and Gwen would come down to New Jersey
and hang out with Scott.
They would just go, like, fuck off.
And then they'd hang out in Scott's room with, like,
the door closed and, you know...
This girl is gay.
We were in this moment where we had all
just become filmmakers of note while not expecting it at all.
And I just spent a lot of time with Mosier.
I just loved him.
Part of "Chasing Amy" comes from me watching that and going,
"You should do a movie." I literally said to Scott,
"You should write a movie about this shit."
In the moment he said it,
I was like, "I don't even know what it is."
Like, I had no clarity about what, like--
I don't even know what the story was.
I'd sort of expressed how I felt,
and I knew how she felt, and I knew who she was,
so by sort of laying all the cards on the table,
I think it actually is the reason
why we had this sort of romantic friendship.
- I love you. - I love you, too.
- This is really cool. - What?
This park is awesome. This place is awesome.
Being here with you is awesome.
I don't remember exactly the first time I saw your face.
It was probably pretty early on.
Being able to put a face to this--
like, best friend that I kept in my pocket was amazing.
And then I heard your voice and I was like,
"That is the sexiest voice
I've ever heard in my entire life."
I'm always self-conscious of being on camera, so--
but I'm way more self-conscious when you're here, though,
- for some reason. - Why?
I don't know, 'cause I think our relationship
is pretty private.
I like you, Holden.
I haven't liked a man in a long time,
and I want you to feel comfortable with me
because I'd really like us to be friends.
So part of it was Scott and Gwen going like, "Man,
like, fucking, what a great story.
The guy falls in love with a lesbian.
You should write that as a movie. No? I'll do it."
It's kind of weird being in a place
where, like...
a bunch of stuff, like, changed your life.
You know, like, the fact that, like,
"Clerks" happened made "Chasing Amy" happen.
I don't feel, like, transformed emotionally or anything,
but it's cool to, like, come to a place
where my life was weirdly affected in a positive way.
All right, let's go.
"Clerks" began my career. "Mallrats" killed my career.
So you got me needing to do something to stay
in this business, or else we were out.
That's a big part of where that movie comes from.
And then, of course, Joey.
Holden, Banky, this pile of PMS
is Alyssa Jones.
The character of Alyssa is actually a confluence of me,
his only lesbian friend, and Joey,
who he met and fell in love with on the set of "Mallrats."
My next guest is a very talented actress
who's been getting great reviews for her role
in the film "Chasing Amy." It's in theaters right now.
Please welcome Joey Lauren Adams.
"Chasing Amy" without Joey would have been
a soulless husk.
Like, an idea-- Joey and I are in this relationship,
and then we're starting to have these issues,
that becomes more interesting to me, where I'm like,
"Well, maybe that should be what the movie's about."
So maybe the idea is a guy falls in love with a lesbian,
but like, what trips him up is not, like,
that he's fallen in love with a lesbian.
What trips him up is, like, at one point,
she had sex with a guy.
I was very much like Holden.
I was very insecure about girlfriends past
at the time that I wrote that movie.
I have a very particular...
fondness for Joey Lauren Adams.
She is an Arkansas farm gal and so grounded.
- You come from... - Arkansas.
Arkansas, all right. And you got--
Is your family there-- are they pretty conservative?
Yeah, so I have some, you know,
members that are very religious and then others who aren't.
They're just a little backwards sometimes.
And of course, young women often have an image
and are not allowed to be much more than that image.
You got bent out of shape the same way over that costume party
when we were in high school.
You fucked Rick Derris on a pool table--
with everyone watching, no less.
It was a costume party, T.S.
No one could tell it was me.
But I appreciated her down-to-earthness
and her native intelligence.
You play someone like Alyssa in "Chasing Amy,"
who's so with it and articulate, it's hard to go
and play the obligatory girlfriend in some film.
And this character is strong and smart and funny.
Dire Straits has a song called "Romeo and Juliet,"
and there's a really wonderful line in it where he says,
"I dreamed your dreams for you, and now your dreams are real."
That's what it always felt like.
She really wanted to be that actress.
She was friends with Parker Posey,
and Parker, the year before was the indie "it" girl
with a movie "Party Girl."
♪ And me
Like, Joey wanted that-- to be considered,
like, an actress, serious actress.
And within, like, a year's time, two years time,
I was able to give her that kind of gift wrapped.
But, you know, she had a lot to do with it.
The Golden Globe-- that's a big, big deal.
I think you do really, really nice work.
Thank you.
And you're going to be a big star.
Thank you. This is, like, the pinnacle of my career.
"Chasing Amy" and the rest
of my fucking professional career
was forged in a cauldron of-- of two years.
Not just my career, but who I would become as a person.
Generally speaking, it all ends if "Chasing Amy" doesn't happen.
But if you went back and told 27-year-old Kevin Smith that,
"Hey, man, fucking-- to get all that,
you have to sacrifice this relationship,"
that kid wouldn't have done it.
That kid was so surprised that everything crumbled after that.
He thought it would only make things, like, stronger.
He was very naive.
I've been in love with you--
it sounds stupid to say from, like,
the first second we started talking,
but that's really how it feels.
I don't remember a time knowing you that I did not like you
or love you so expansively,
it felt like it was going to swallow my heart whole.
I thought it was so cool that you were, like,
an out lesbian to your friends.
I was very out on the Internet, very closeted in real life.
I'd picked a date that I was going to tell you
that I liked you,
and you were the first person I came out to as queer,
because I wanted you to know that I was a romantic option.
And it was the entire reason I came out.
You were the first person that I talked to every day
and the last person I talked to at night.
SHE SAID "YES"!
The second my alarm went off at,
like, six in the morning or something,
I was already texting you, and you were up at the same time,
and we were just, like, texting back and forth, back and forth.
We helped each other get through the day
because back then when we met,
it was dark times for both of us.
You know, being a teen is just the worst thing ever,
and we just helped each other.
Fellas, I'm off the market officially.
What about to the ladies?
Ladies, actually.
- Hey, everybody. - Hi.
We're filming BTS. Is that okay?
Say again?
Is it okay if we film some BTS?
- Happily. - All right.
Folks, here's some of the most metal water
you will ever drink in your life.
This is what you said of John Pierson in 2003--
"It's rare when you become friendly with your heroes.
It's rarer still when, even after ten years of friendship
and familiarity, they remain your heroes."
I guess I never really thought of you as as my hero growing up
because I was just a "Chasing Amy" fanatic,
but in this process of getting to make this movie,
I think you have become a, you know, a hero,
not on a pedestal, but as the the person
who helped make all of this possible.
You know, I'd be lying if I was like, "Oh, my God,
I was trying to reach you." You know what I'm saying?
But you got reached regardless. And I didn't know it was you,
but, like, I was telling my story. That's all I ever do.
But when you told me the story, I'm like,
"Oh, I haven't met you before, but I've met you before."
People who are like, "That fucking saved my life."
Your case stands out because I'm like,
"Savannah's way too young for this shit to matter."
They've made way too many better,
more expressive, more on point,
more from the community point of view movies than this.
But when you explained it and, you know, in the TED Talk,
I was like, "That makes sense."
It was surprising but delightful
that you found something in it.
Like that, it played a role in your world.
Like, as an artist, as the guy who made it,
of course, that just means, like, everything.
All right, let's stop for a minute.
Are you happy?
So we started dating, and I was out
and completely open to being queer, but...
you were not.
We were dating for two years by the time you came out
- as queer to your family. - Yeah.
I'm from Mexico City, born and raised--
one of the first cities in the world to legalize gay marriage.
However, in my-- in my family, in my circle,
there was-- it was like, "Okay,
it's great that gay people can get married,
but, you know, can they do it over there?"
Ow! Hide my double chin.
I wanted to talk to you about the thing I told my dad
because, you know, he's my dad.
Yeah?
But I was a little bit worried
because he can be a little bit traditional
and, like, honestly, I don't even know
how much he knows about, like, trans people.
Personally, I was very nervous because I didn't want anybody
to be anything other than nice to you and accepting.
He was just, like, "Um, does that--
And what does that mean to your relationship?"
And I was just like, "Well, things are going
to stay the same.
We still love each other
with everything we have, and nothing has changed."
And then he was like, "Oh, well, I'm really glad
that things are progressing."
And then he was like, "Is he happy?"
- And he used the pronoun... - Wow.
- Like straight-up. - Wow.
- Yeah. - That's... surprising
and very sweet.
Yeah. Yeah.
And I was like, "Yes.
You know this-- in terms of identity
and-- and self-image and stuff like that,
it's the happiest I've ever seen him."
Yeah.
And he was just like, "I'm very happy for you both."
And another thumbs up.
- Wow. That is... - Yeah.
...like all you can ask for, right?
- Nice to meet you, Alex. - Nice to meet you.
- S-A-V. - Oh, that's an awesome name.
- Sav. Brandon. - Nice to meet you.
I'm the director of "Chasing Chasing Amy."
I love "Chasing Amy."
I think it's way more sincere than a lot of his other stuff.
He was on the forefront of issues
that people are talking about today.
I think there would be a little less controversy
about it today if it came out.
But-- but that's probably just some idealistic
thinking on my part because I don't really follow
the news that much.
If you can't watch that movie and find anything about it
that you don't love, something's really wrong with you.
So-- But...
"Chasing Amy" was, to me, more of a film
made for straight white men that was,
you know, kind of introducing people to queer communities.
"Chasing Amy," when it came out, was controversial.
And I remember even thinking to myself as I'm watching it,
I'm like, "Wonder what my gay friends
are going to think of this."
If you've been marginalized because of media that says
that lesbians can all of a sudden not be lesbians
if they find the right man,
I totally get why this movie would trigger you.
Hi, I'm Kurt Loder with MTV News.
"Boy meets lesbian" is the high concept thesis
of a new movie opening on Friday in Boston,
Los Angeles, San Francisco, Atlanta,
and a few other cities.
The movie is "Chasing Amy,"
the third film from director Kevin Smith.
The theme, once again is post-high school anxiety,
but does the boy get the lesbian?
And for that matter, how much of a lesbian
is the lesbian in question?
It's giving certain men this belief
that you should go after your lesbian friends
if you're attracted to them, right?
And that, like, they might reciprocate.
Do you remember for one fucking second who I am?
So, I mean, you know, people change.
Oh! Oh, it's that simple?
"Chasing Amy" is a very particular queer story.
If queer cinema were a-- were a bus,
"Chasing Amy" would be like, outside the bus,
but it would be outside the bus in relatively good company.
There are other movies from the same time period
and earlier that are much more sensitive
with their perspectives, with their language,
but that may not have been as mainstream.
Can I kiss you?
How come we didn't know about this before?
I mean, you don't seem gay.
I didn't say I was gay. I said I was in love.
And so, like, even today,
we fall into the trappings of mainstream expectations
when it comes to queer media.
Do you understand why certain LGBTQ people
may not like "Chasing Amy?"
Yeah, of course. Absolutely.
Believe me, I've had 22 years to get used to that,
and I got used to that on the fucking first week it came out.
There were some people, as Gwen predicted, that were upset.
The backlash to be expected, of course,
is from the lesbian community, and not really unfairly.
Like here you are, you're a white straight male.
What are you doing writing a movie about gay people
or especially a lesbian character?
But Gwen also said, "I was always surprised
that more people didn't come after you."
The biggest blowback-- and God's truth-- that I heard,
felt, and was told about was when they told me that Ellen
and Anne Heche went to see "Chasing Amy,"
and it was reported that they walked out
in the first half hour.
And us being like, "Man, like--
well, that's the most famous lesbian in the world.
We just lost her.
That means we're never getting on 'The Ellen Show.'"
Kevin Smith can't know what it's like to be
a queer person or a trans person.
Now that we know that we're attracted to each other,
what do we do?
But he can know what it's like to know them
and to have them in his life,
and that's the story he's telling.
A big complaint seems to be about Banky,
who'll, like, use pretty harsh terminology
and throw around the "F" word and stuff like that.
Well, yeah. Banky's not "the villain,"
but Banky is meant to be the idiot in the story.
What'd I tell you? She just needs the right guy.
All every woman really wants, be it mother, senator, nun,
is some serious deep dicking.
Jason Lee's character Banky is "the way in"
for straight guys watching this movie.
I remember telling Kevin that I was nervous
about some of Banky's dialog.
"You know, Kevin, there's just a lot of offensive things
that Banky is saying, and I don't want to be hated.
Like I don't want people to think Banky
is just some ignorant prick."
What does it matter if I refer to her as a dyke?
Banky is just flat out gay. He was just repressed.
That's why he was so angry and projecting and shit.
But I would like to state, for the record,
did create all these characters
or rather steal them from real life people.
So if anybody gets to say what happens to him, I think it's me.
It isn't a healthy thing
to say that your homophobia is excused
because you are gay and you're closeted
and you're trying to deal with that,
especially if you're hurting other queer people.
You don't just get a pass for that.
When you say that all homophobes are secretly gay,
what you're doing is blaming gay people for homophobia.
Exactly. And not just, you know, bigots.
Right.
As time moves on, we look at these films that have been made
and we start to read them a little differently.
There's so much that you would not get away with today
that they got away with just fine.
And nobody even questioned it.
Like that there would be a homophobic character
that uses the word "faggot" over and over and over again.
I think now we would judge that director
and that would be very problematic.
Back in the day, he was just accurately portraying
how a guy like that would actually talk.
What if she's carrying a disease?
And you could just bring to life flawed characters.
It's very much a film of its time,
but it's still coming out of that era
where people don't know as much about,
like, the LGBTQ community.
A House panel says no to gay marriages.
Yesterday, the Judiciary Committee approved a bill
that would keep same sex unions invalid under federal law,
even if a state makes them legal.
What is it about gay men that terrifies the rest of the world?
The Hooper X character in the film
is really sort of the moral compass.
There has always been a hard thing when it comes
to, like, any sort of like, doubly marginalized community,
of how do we tackle both things at once?
There's an element of what-- you know,
what's called twoness going on there.
And twoness is being black and being an American.
And but twoness can also be black and being gay.
It's pretty easy for Holden and Banky
to write a comic book about a bunch of stoners superheroes.
There's not a lot of risk there.
I got to deal with being a minority
in the minority of the minority,
and nobody's supporting my ass.
That character could be the whole subject
of a whole film of itself.
One of my first notes that I was taking while I was watching
was Ben Affleck's goatee was a bad idea.
And... Well, that's that's the first note,
so I guess that tells you all you need to know.
You know, when I was growing up, I was, like,
"Holden, what a cool guy."
And then I like, grew up and I was like,
"No, Banky was such a babe in that movie."
He was, like, the cool guy.
Holden's, like, fucking wearing, like, this loose flannel
and these jeans that don't fit him right, and the goatee.
No wonder he attracted a lesbian.
That's going into the movie.
Naturally, I gravitate toward the Holden character.
That is the closest character
that I've ever written to myself.
This girl loves me, my friend--
loves me, you know what I'm saying?
It's a film that centers Holden McNeil,
who is a straight white man,
and so his lens really shapes the storyline.
And while there are sort of diverse perspectives,
it's still very much Holden's lens.
There's always this assumption that all we need
is to meet this right man, and then we will change
everything about ourselves to be with him
because it's a standard, it's tradition,
it's just the way that things are.
Why girls?
Why men?
Well, because that's the standard.
And so I think we've been faced with that
for most of our lives, and so a lot of lesbians,
I think, innately just-- they detest that,
and I understand why.
There's this scene in the movie
where Holden chases after Alyssa in the rain
and she like, lets him have it. She's just like, "Screw you."
That was so unfair!
"I'm lesbian.
You're an idiot.
How dare you?
I'm going to hitch a ride back home."
And I was like, "Yes, like, that's so good."
And then he, like, mopes back to his car, and I'm like,
"Get out of there, Ben Affleck."
And then she runs back to him and kisses him.
And I was like, "No!"
I was watching Ben Affleck's speech
and I was thinking like, "Holy crap,
this is actually, literally the speech
that anyone, gay or straight, would want to hear."
I love you.
Very, very simple.
Where I, like, related to "Chasing Amy"
coming into it was that Kevin is such a romantic
in the way that he describes his feelings of love.
You are the-- the epitome of everything I have ever
looked for in another human being.
That's how I feel about my fiance.
So this is what I'm sending.
"I'm taking my fiancée on a date to some diner
you shot in 20 years ago."
And this is where Ben Affleck sat.
My butt has been where Ben Affleck's butt has been.
Basically Ben Affleck. Little shorter.
This movie made me be honest with myself,
"Chasing Amy" and "Chasing Chasing Amy."
You did it too late.
You tried to cheat. I won.
This is the worst.
You brought me all the way to New Jersey.
The last time I was here, I was not very honest
with myself about who I was, and now I'm back here
and engaged, more out.
It's a pretty good situation to be in.
And now, I guess the weight of this place isn't as heavy.
It's just a place,
and I'm not nearly as nervous as I was just to exist in the world
or shoot in New Jersey. It's kind of nice.
It's the "Chasing Amy" memorial table.
Where homosexuals go to die.
Well, you're the only homo at this table.
I'm half.
I hope that went on the record.
That I'm half gay?
Because-- Yeah, Because you're half gay.
The character of Alyssa Jones is Joey Adams.
It's written for Joey about Joey based on things Joey said.
The bigger difference, of course, is Alyssa is--
you know, she's identifies as a lesbian,
at least in the beginning of the movie.
I think Alyssa Jones, as a character,
was an incredible role for a woman at that time.
There really weren't tons of roles for women
that had robust, intelligent dialogue and banter
and the ability to be more than one dimensional.
I think Kevin writes well for women
because Kevin's very in touch with his feminine side.
He's very much the female in our relationship,
and I'm more the male. He's very romantic.
He's very sentimental.
This character that Kevin Smith created of Alyssa
is sort of, like, maybe a leap
and a bound above the rest of the film
and past the time period in which that this movie came out.
She's cool. She, like, gets on the mic at a dyke night,
you know, and makes out with her girlfriend in public.
There are things in this movie that are so ill-advised.
Like, they're on the swings, and he says like...
"Well, where's the penetration in lesbian sex?"
The finger?
She goes...
Observe.
I don't know if anyone in this room
has ever fisted someone,
but you for sure don't do it like that.
Alyssa Jones as a queer character
still comes in a very appetizing to the male gaze package.
She's blonde, she's thin, she's sexually available.
She has a promiscuous past.
I thought you would be into this.
You did?
What does that say about me?
You've done stuff like this before.
I mean, this should be no big deal for you.
Any aspect of that movie that might have seemed
ahead of its time when we made it has long since,
like-- history has caught up and then gone past it
to the point where people do look at it
as "problematic" or something like that.
This movie is, like, so accidentally good
at talking about biphobia.
There are so many things that the character Alyssa will say
that I have thought about or seen in my queer experiences
with other queer women,
and I just felt like how interesting it was
that Kevin Smith ended up making this movie
when the intent is clearly not there.
It really infuriates me on this film
when we hear feedback about how it's some guy's sexual fantasy,
and he's portraying women and lesbians in a bad way,
because he really does--
he has such an honest respect for women,
and he really understands them.
And I think it's obvious in most of his scripts.
The way that Alyssa as a character,
defines her experience is really beautiful.
She offers language for things that people
have not been able to say before.
I like that Alyssa is never actually questioning
her own sexuality.
Everyone else is doing it for her, but she's good.
She knows what's up.
One of my favorite parts of the film
is when they're lying in each other's arms,
Holden and Alyssa, and he says
something that's like, very male, right?
Like, "Why me? Why am I so special?"
And she has this beautiful, like, sweet,
short monologue about...
I came to this on my own terms.
Which is why it makes it okay.
I'm not with you because of what family, society, life
tried to instill in me from day one.
She didn't fall into a heterosexual relationship
because it was what was expected of her or what the norm was,
what the assumption was. She chose it.
So being able to see somebody own their experience
in that way is really beautiful.
I think it taught me the importance of, like-- at least
in that time of labeling myself as bi, not allowing anyone
to tell me that I wasn't queer enough.
The one scene that gives us, I think, the most insight
about her is the scene with her friends,
because you get to see kind of her friends react
to her sexual fluidity.
She's like, "Yeah, I'm with this guy now."
And they're like... Another one bites the dust.
It's, like, in that moment, it's not as if, like,
"Oh, she's just a different kind of queer person."
It's as if her queerness is now erased.
She is just a person trying to find love, find companionship,
find someone who will be her equal in so many things,
and I think that's touching.
To immediately halve your options
by eliminating the possibility of finding
that one person within your own gender--
that just seems stupid to me.
It's hard to pinpoint bisexuality
as a media representation because it really operates
between two polar extremes.
There's the invisibility
and then there's the hyper visibility.
So the invisibility refers to the fact
that bisexual stories haven't been told for very long.
Language is really important.
Being able to have a way to talk about something
gives us the ability to be that.
So if you don't have something to call yourself,
how do you explain it to the people who are important to you?
I'm not even sure bisexuality exists.
I think it's just a layover on the way to gay town.
When are you gonna make up your mind between dick and pussy?
And spare us the gory bisexual details.
Well, I'll see your fugitive former flame
and raise you a lesbian daughter.
Marissa?
Well, I'm sure it's just a phase.
It was for me.
The hypervisibility is all of the stereotypes
that we attach to bisexuality, and "Chasing Amy"
brings up a lot of those things.
The idea that bisexuality is associated
with promiscuity or sexual experience.
People often think of bisexual people as being confused
because they aren't being true to themselves.
A lot of that confusion comes from the social scripts
that are laid in front of us. It's the cultural context.
It's not that that person doesn't understand
how they individually feel.
All right, y'all, ready?
One, two, three.
The coverage?
Yeah. One, two, three.
Take me through the genesis of you two meeting.
I've heard Kevin's point of view on it.
Well, Kevin has a far superior memory than I do.
That's just a very nice way of saying,
"Kevin cared more than I ever did."
I remember meeting you. All right, let's hear where.
It's a boring story if I just say, like,
"Yeah, I walked onto set, and he was there."
Is that where we met? That's where I remember.
See? I care more than she does.
We met in an audition for "Mallrats."
- Okay, but that's where it-- - You did walk into a room.
That's where it gets a little hazy for me.
You don't remember this? Fuck.
This is why we broke up.
So did you guys start doing it while you were
still in production, or did you wait till "Mallrats"
was finished shooting?
"Bio-dome" was-- I was shooting "Bio-dome."
You were shooting-- No, I was done with "Bio-dome."
You were done-- We hated each other.
When I started dating Joey, which was after "Mallrats"--
We met on "Mallrats," and we had great chemistry.
Like, just fooling around. We'd make fun of each other,
mock each other, like, all the time and shit.
I didn't realize we were flirting.
That's how I talked to most girls.
On "Mallrats," when he first gave me my line reading,
he also told me what to do with my hand
while I was saying the line,
and I almost had to leave the room for a second
just to sort of-- you know,
my face turned red and it's just so enraging.
But you just learn to swallow your pride
and then you see your performance
and you see the take that when you did it your way
and then the take when you did it his way and you just go,
"Oh, he's right."
She was just cool. Joey was like, fun to be around.
Because I think he's funny.
- That helped. - I would really laugh hard--
He could really make me laugh.
But not-- but it wasn't like--
you didn't give it away for free.
You made me earn it and stuff,
but, like-- they were all top shelf.
The one time she said, like,
"You're the funniest person I know,"
like, that's-- that's fucking everything.
It's nice when you do a dramatic scene.
They called cut and it was the greatest thing in the world
to have my boyfriend come over and-- and hold me.
She was literally my muse. I had a real insecurity
about, like, she had a bigger past than me.
The scene in "Chasing Amy" where Holden is like, baiting her...
Do you know a guy named Rick Derris?
- Rick Derris? - Yeah.
Sure. We used to hang out in high school.
That was me.
I admired Kevin so much
because he had found such a strong voice
and knew who he was without having to go live in Bali.
...Alyssa, with you, because...
I feel inadequate,
because you've had such a big life
and so much experience, and my life's been pretty small
in comparison.
That doesn't matter to me.
It did start functioning as I'd write a scene
and give it to her.
We'd talk about it and, like,
she'd get emotional because you were like,
"This is an apology." That scene in the movie is kind of like,
"Oh, Holden figured it out, too."
And then, of course, Holden figured it out
because the guy who writes for Holden figured it out.
Looks like a very personal story.
I finally had something personal to say.
"Chasing Amy" has touched me in ways
that I didn't anticipate. I wanted to feel love so badly
watching that movie.
I was like, "I want some of that."
It's a roadmap of how to not fuck up your relationship.
I think even calling you "best friend,"
it didn't cover what I felt for you.
ICE RINK
It was just like, this is, like, a soulmate.
We were bonded on, like, some next level.
I could talk to you about anything,
and you just kept me going. And, you know,
I think I did that for you, too.
You were so supportive at a time when I was...
so alone in the world.
I mean, it was dark times for both of us.
Every night you would just have, like, these dark thoughts.
You would just talk about how, you know, you hated--
you hated school and, like, you hated your life.
The main thing was that you just felt, like,
so alone in the world.
And I just remember being, like, so adamant.
You have me, You have me, You have me.
Maybe it's not enough, but it's something.
I could just be this tiny, tiny thing
that maybe was worth it-- you know, staying alive.
I feel a lot of shame about that period.
- You shouldn't. - I do.
I feel so much shame because I put a lot on you.
But it's not about putting things on me.
We were-- even before we were dating,
we've always been a team.
Can we cut?
We about ready?
Everybody speeding?
"Chasing Amy," well received.
Gets great fucking reviews up there.
It did as it was intended.
Popped Joey in a big, bad way.
She was getting press like crazy.
- But it was-- - Well, I'm a fan of this one.
Sounds like--
Her and I would do press together as well,
which was kind of fun.
And our relationship started kind of faltering and stuff.
Movie came out in April of '97.
We were broken up by July of '97 and the relationship was over.
You came on the show when "Chasing Amy" came out
and we were rooting for you then,
and this is very exciting and you deserve this.
The Golden Globes ceremony is going to be on January 18th,
so we'll cross our fingers for you.
Thanks so much for coming.
It's very easy to romanticize the end of the relationship
and be like, "Our relationship was sacrificed
on the altar of 'Chasing Amy.'"
Like that's where our relationship went.
Like, "I'm not saying if there was no movie,
we'd still be fucking together today."
Just putting everything out there probably brought it
to an end a lot sooner than it maybe might have naturally gone.
I never have a single regret about it.
There's no way I would be in a marriage
that has lasted 20 years if I didn't meet Joey
and she didn't shape me.
When you watch "Chasing Amy," the tail end of the movie,
and you get this feeling like he might figure it out one day.
And the scene in "Reboot" allows you proof that,
like, he worked it out.
Alyssa and I aren't married.
Married people don't like each other.
We're co-parents.
Wait a sec. You have a kid?
Yeah. Alyssa and her partner wanted to have a baby,
and since we've known each other, and more importantly,
liked each other for 20 years, they asked me to be the father.
In making that little "Chasing Amy" sequel
in the middle of "Reboot,"
I kind of got to go and address the criticism.
It's always a story that should have been told
from a queer perspective or a woman's perspective
or any perspective other than cis white male's.
What was really beautiful to me was catching up with Kevin
and hearing him talk about where he was in his life
and where the scene came from for him.
In the first draft of the scene,
Holden and Alyssa had sex to have the baby.
And so Joey was like, "Kevin, you can't do that."
Like, I just had a remarkable conversation with you
about how much the movie meant to you,
but I almost didn't. I almost just wrote back like,
"Oh, it's great. I love it. Can't wait to shoot it.'
How wonderful that somebody who is such a fan of the movie
affected what the storytelling would be.
That's crazy.
"Chasing Amy" has always, like, in a weird way, been part of--
it's different in that way-- that Kevin and I were dating,
and he wrote it when we were dating,
and it's about part of our growth.
I walked out of that relationship fixed,
and nobody really can say that
at the end of a relationship.
It wasn't like we ended like, "See you later, pal."
Like, you know, it was kind of shitty.
Apparently, I wrote a passive aggressive letter
and just left Toronto. And left a broom.
Well, she said she needed
a broom, and it was such a fuck-you move
because she had told me, like, at one point, she's like,
"I need a broom for this place."
So I wrote this, like, Dear John breakup letter and shit,
and I went out of my way to buy her a broom
and left it with a note and it's like,
"P.S., They say it sweeps clean."
Oh, I was such an asshole. But in any event,
it was-- like, I became the person that I became
for the rest of my life because of that relationship.
I never went back to being the other guy.
Please know that I am forever changed
because of who you are and what you've meant to me.
Anyway.
That's all I got. Thank you both for this.
- This is amazing. - Thank you.
This is a dream fucking come true.
Excellent job. I'll see you tomorrow.
All right. Well done, kids.
What are you doing tomorrow? The one-on-one interview?
- Yeah. Yeah. - All right.
Finally. So great to meet you.
Guys, thank you so much for everything.
Excellent job. Look at you, making a movie.
I know how documentaries work,
and they always do this thing
where while the camera is rolling,
before you're actually asked a question,
they just, like, do this thing of like...
me being uncomfortable.
I'm just gonna let you keep talking then.
In 1994, lesbians were not represented
except for movies like "Desert Hearts"
and "Claire of the Moon."
Sex between women is as raw as it gets.
What we did with "Go Fish" was life-changing.
Why are you taunting me?
I don't need to be reminded every day that
I haven't slept with a woman in ten months.
Got letters from everywhere.
Young women telling me that their lives have been changed
by seeing this movie.
We actually ended up becoming poster children for lesbianism.
I'm not going to lie,
it was very challenging that we made "Go Fish"
and Kevin met us
and he decided that this would be an interesting subject.
He was like, "What do lesbians do?"
And I just started talking about what it means to be gay
to the mainstream world for the first time in my life.
And so I-- you know, I just-- I'm like, "No, like, ask me.
Ask me what?" Now, watching "Chasing Amy,"
I'm like, huh.
That idea-- when she says, like, you know,
"I want to go fuck this girl." And then he's like,
"What? How do you?" You said fuck.
She said fuck. You said fuck to that girl.
You said that you'd fuck her.
And?
It gets into a whole conversation
about the broader term of fucking versus penetration.
Well then what's with saying fuck?
Shouldn't you say "eat her out?"
Or at least modify the term "fuck"
with something like "fist?"
I'm like, "Hm, you're welcome, Kevin Smith."
That is 100% a conversation that we had.
Watching "Chasing Amy" all these years later,
Kevin Smith has an ear for dialog.
He's just really good at that.
There's so much in this movie that makes me just happy--
happy to have been a part of it. It is heartfelt, it is lovely.
It's so within itself. It's so true.
There are a lot of, like, subtleties about friendships,
particularly friendships between men.
I feel generous in a way that I 100% didn't
when I was that age,
and I had various decades of dyke rage about it.
I was 25 years old,
and I had made a movie about dykes
that no one had ever seen.
And I watched him doing everything
and getting all the deals and all the things.
The winners are "Clerks," directed by Kevin Smith.
Had our first screening, was really good,
and the second screening was was great, too.
There was a piece in the New York Times
about it as well.
So then the buzz started,
and after that we had a sit-down dinner
with Harvey Weinstein and Miramax,
and-- and they were into it and they picked it up.
And I remember just, like, sitting with him,
just being like, "Dude, do you see what's happening?
Like, you're getting all the opportunities and I'm not."
He was like, "You're jealous, and you're being weird."
I don't think we-- either of us knew
exactly what was going to happen.
But what emerged was that
Kevin got an empire, and we were just some dykes.
So you make "Chasing Amy"
- for $250,000. - We did.
And you take the film back to Harvey Weinstein.
Yes.
So, as you know, we met with him up
at the Stein Eriksen Lodge, and I pitched,
"We're going to make the movie for this.
If you like it, you keep it.
If not, we take it out and sell it."
We took it back to him and showed him the movie
in the Tribeca screening room.
He's crying, Harvey.
And he goes, "That's a Miramax movie."
Which I loved at the time. I loved hearing that.
You know, I thought he was who I thought he was.
Now, put through the filter of what we know...
tough to fucking feel sentimental about it.
I mean, maybe that's how I do feel-- sentimental.
I go, "How sweet."
Like that, naive, like 26-27 year-old.
He just believed everything he was presented.
We go to Sundance with it.
It was an amazing evening and stuff.
Harvey had dollar signs in his eyes,
and fucking everybody was happy,
and it would have been great if it stayed that way.
This is Sundance '97.
So if you follow the Harvey Weinstein case,
that's the year with Rose McGowan at--
where he attacks Rose McGowan.
All of this was happening while we were doing "Chasing Amy,"
telling, you know, showing this movie
to the world that's very feminist
and, you know, kind of forward thinking and stuff.
I can't erase the past.
I can't go back and take his name off the fucking movies.
I don't even own the movies and shit like that.
I can't undo the fact that my career is tied up with him.
- Hi, Joey. - Hi.
- How are you? - Good.
Good.
- We're at your house. - We are.
Thank you for letting us be here.
Yeah.
This is the first time there's been a film crew inside.
Ask me something I haven't been asked about "Chasing Amy."
Okay.
That's a lot of pressure.
I think I can-- You know what? I think I can do it, though.
Can you?
This moment is 13 years in the making.
I think the first time I saw it,
I was like, "This is a love story, and I want love."
Like I feel-- You know, I think the first time I saw it,
I was, like, very much Holden.
And then slowly, as I started to know more about my sexuality,
this is my only reference point to how I may feel
about having a fluid sexuality, right?
And that movie gave me that-- that reference point,
and it literally is how I came out to my mom was--
because she didn't know what pansexual was.
I was like, "Do you remember 'Chasing Amy?'
I feel how Alyssa feels."
And that was the moment where my mom was like,
"Is that all? Is that what all this fuss has been about?"
Well, you have a very cool mom.
A very cool mom.
But anyway, so I feel like I can ask you a question
that maybe you haven't been asked a thousand times before,
but I will have to ask you some very basic questions.
So you get this role.
It's written specifically for you, it's tailored for you.
And then, you know, but also,
there's this LGBTQ element of it.
Was that daunting to play, as somebody who's straight?
Slightly? I mean, I think because the script...
was somewhat personal between Kevin and I,
I felt I had a right to play the role to some degree.
And my biggest fear was, like, lipstick lesbian,
that sort of thing.
I didn't want her to seem like that.
And I just kept thinking like, you know, what am I going to do?
What am I going to do? What am I going to do?
And then I just realized that like,
I shouldn't do anything different.
It's not a haircut. It's not the jewelry.
It's not-- Am I going try and play her butch? Am I--
Like, just play her authentic.
For me to try and, like, do what I think is gay
just seemed wrong.
Does it feel weird to be,
I don't know, like, the face of "Chasing Amy?"
Yes. Yes.
Kevin wrote that movie, not me.
It was my story, to some degree,
but the film wasn't my truth.
If I were to have written a film
about Kevin and I's relationship,
it would have been-- it would not have been that film.
I was getting to play a character
that was complicated and amazing,
but for me to sort of take credit
for how it affected someone feels strange to me.
Whatever moved you was Kevin's truth.
It wasn't my truth.
It's weird for a stranger to put that on you.
There's a weird energy exchange right here, and it's--
And I feel like-- Like, are you looking to me
for something that I can't give you?
I don't know what it is you want from me.
I don't know why you want to talk to me.
I don't know.
It's cool that I get to talk to you at all.
I hope we get to be friends after this or something.
Right, but it's more than that.
Like, you would not have, like--
I mean, there's three cameras in this room.
- Right. - And you know what I mean?
Like, if you just wanted to talk to me,
you could have come to a convention I did.
- Sure. - And come up to the table.
Like it's, you know-- like it's more than just, like,
"I just wanted to meet you and talk to you."
Like, you wouldn't have...
been able to pull all of this together.
Maybe what I'm here for is, like,
we have been strangely connected
through my weird fixation on this movie.
While I think it's totally understandable
why I am fixated on this movie. I think it's really rad that,
you know, giving a fucking TED Talk about it.
You know, watching it 200 times to not kill myself.
- Right. Right. - You know, like that.
And that's not a thing I'm trying to put on anybody.
But like, that's literally what my life was.
My journey with it was so different from yours,
but it had just-- it had a profound effect on my life.
We really hated each other, and then we got together
and it's just great.
I'm so in love.
Kevin wasn't just, like, a boyfriend.
Kevin was a very profound relationship in my life.
How often do you sit with exes and go back down memory lane
about a film that you made together?
It wasn't fun getting shit constantly about having been
with other men, having gone to Bali.
There were fights and they were-- they hurt.
You know, it was painful. It was really, really painful.
As much as I loved Kevin,
it's really awful to be in a relationship with someone
who, like, never believes that you love them.
Why me? You know? Why-- Why now?
Where you're constantly having to be, like,
"But I wouldn't be with you if I didn't love you."
- Who's my favorite director? - Yeah.
- You can't ask me that. - Why not?
Because we'll fight all the way home.
Yeah, exactly. I got to go home with this guy.
Oh, no.
It wasn't this cathartic thing that I think
it was for Kevin.
It's not like, you know--
Like we did that movie and everything was resolved,
which Kevin talks kind of like...
He wrote the movie and figured it all out.
While we were making "Chasing Amy,"
for the first time, I actually had this moment
where I was like, "My God, I think I've grown."
I was doing a lot of emotional directing.
I'm glad that he made a movie,
like, acknowledging that it's fucked up,
but it doesn't change the fact that, like, he made me feel bad
for having lived the life I had lived
and been who I had been.
Right.
Because he was insecure.
I still carried...
what he had put on me.
"You're with another man? How dare you?"
What the fuck's wrong with you?
How could you do all those things?
Easily!
- It's a lot. - Yeah.
Wow.
That's-- That's, like, an enduring kind of,
like, fucked up thing.
Yeah.
And now there's this, like, really neat little movie
where everything is, like, kind of tied up in a bow
because he gives a speech in a diner.
But what I did not get-- she didn't care.
She wasn't looking for that guy anymore.
She was-- she was looking for me-- for-- for the Bob.
And it's like, everything wasn't okay.
We had still lived through that.
By the time I figured this all out,
it's too late.
- She moved on. - I love the movie.
I'm glad I made it, but it's, like,
I had to take all of that and put it back on Kevin
because it's not mine to carry.
It's a lot to deal with.
Wow. Sorry. I'm still--
- I'm just processing all this. - No, no, no, no.
Um, wow. I love that this is, like,
unlike any "Chasing Amy" interview I've ever done.
- See? - And I might regret it.
- I don't know, but-- - I hope not.
I don't love looking back on that time.
It brings up, like, all of those--
those feelings of, like, that-- not just boyfriends,
but, like, casting directors and producers of just like,
"You're just a piece of meat. You're a whore."
I know that he gets asked that since we date,
like, what do I look like naked and things like that.
"What's it like sleeping with her?"
That was when Harvey was around, who treated me like shit.
And I was, like, a young actress in Hollywood,
going through all those stories that you've heard.
Me like you.
Oh, I like you.
Hi.
Sundance, for me, was like,
"Oh, Harvey's, like-- doesn't want to fuck me, so--"
You know, and there was that energy there.
I mean, we all knew who Harvey was.
You'd be in a room with him and you could feel it.
Rose was getting raped.
You know, there was another side to--
to the, like, "We made a movie that went to Sundance,
and it did really well." And there's a dark side, too.
I don't wish that like, "God,
I wish we were back doing 'Chasing Amy.'"
Like, that was not, like, the best time in life for me.
So how do you feel about being nominated tonight?
It's wonderful.
I mean, MTV, it's-- I think that's more my audience
with a film like "Chasing Amy."
So it's an honor.
It really is.
It's that A.D. who's like, "Come sit in my lap.
Come sit in my lap.
Come on. It's just fun."
Did I make you uncomfortable?
- No, no, no, no. - I'm sorry.
You know how to make a boy feel horny.
And you have to do it because you can't be the actress
that's like, "Fuck you.
I'm not going to sit in your lap."
Then you're difficult and no one wants to work with you.
I went back through my IMDb,
of just like, "Oh, right, on this movie...
Oh, and on that movie... and on that movie,
the actor would come in and show us his dick."
I hated Harvey. I hated being around him,
and I hated how Kevin had to kiss his ass.
And it's, like, it's hard to go in as an actress
and like, knowing that, like,
Harvey doesn't want you to play the role.
And then for him to never call and just be like,
"God, I've seen dailies, Joey, and you're doing a great job."
Like he's just a fucking asshole.
Like, that's what I was doing in my 20s.
I was trying to, like, be taken seriously as an actress,
and then I was dating this guy
who made me feel bad about myself.
Tonight's nominees for Best Performance by an Actress
in a Motion Picture, Musical, or Comedy are...
Joey Lauren Adams, "Chasing Amy."
You see why when you're like,
"Oh my God, 'Chasing Amy' and this great--"
And, like, again, yes, the movie is great and it's amazing,
but it's, like, I have my own story with, like,
what was going on in my life when-- at that age
and what surrounds that.
And it's those guys-- having to go to dinner with old men
and being promised roles and not getting them.
And for Kevin, it's a funny fucking story.
Yeah.
And not to say that Kevin writing that movie
didn't mean a lot to me.
You know, that he could see at least,
like, what he was doing was wrong.
But it doesn't change the two years that, like, I lived it.
I'm really grateful still that you were in this movie.
I am, too. I mean, I'm incredibly grateful.
And I'm-- And I'm-- you know, I am so happy that...
that it saved your life.
From the pain and the fucked-up-ness
and everything, that something this beautiful came from it
is incredible.
It could have just been pain and fucked-up-ness
and you know, nothing ever happened.
But that Kevin was able to make something beautiful from it--
like, that's-- that's what's incredible.
Not me, you know?
I went back to Kansas after the Joey interview.
I needed a bit of a break from making this movie.
- Okay, well. - I can do it.
- Is that how you cut hair? - Yeah.
My grandma got sick with cancer.
I wanted to spend time with her, I'd also just come out as trans.
And I really wanted to transition privately,
with my family's support.
I've never had a partner cut my hair before.
You've never had a partner before?
I-- I dated people before you.
And I really needed perspective.
Was I naive to go into that interview the way I did?
Do you want that, like, completely above your ear or?
Hey, Mom. Can you help her?
Just-- It's about what you want.
I don't know how to--
This is finally your opportunity.
I don't know how to answer that question.
I just needed a minute to collect myself
and to not live in "Chasing Amy" world.
I'll organize socks.
Yeah, I was going to say that, because that's about
where your area of expertise begins and ends.
Wow.
Thank you for doing the laundry.
You're welcome.
I kind of lost steam--
lost a sense of purpose-- where I was at with the documentary,
what I wanted to do, who I want to be.
- Happy birthday. - Happy birthday.
- Hello. - Hello.
- You look cute. - Thanks.
- Do you like my camera? - I do.
- It's very high tech. - I know.
Look at that. It's the future.
Oh, you can see my mustache.
Of course you can.
It's barely there, but you can see it.
After a while, I reached out to Kevin,
and I was just like, "Hey, man, can we just, like, catch up?"
I got to say, before, when we first snapped onto Zoom
and I had my-- my windows blocked
because I was closing other windows,
so I didn't see you.
Yeah. And it threw me because I was like,
Oh, Sav is having me set up with some tech,
because it did not sound like your voice.
That's six months on testosterone, my dude.
So I've got, like, a more noticeable mustache,
and then I've got, like, a lot of hair under here,
but you can't really see it
because I have that Zoom filter on that makes you look better.
I don't know about that filter.
In the next decade, I'll have the the beautiful beard
that I've always, like, wanted and seen myself having,
I'm excited.
Like, I know who I am.
You know, it's been a long process to,
like, accept myself, and it was really fucking scary.
And, you know, I'm grateful for your support.
It was just nice to have an outside person who, like,
I finally told to just say like, "Hey, man, you're okay.
Like, you're going to be fine if you do this."
To me, it was like, it's so weird
because almost from the beginning of our relationship,
it was, like, a matter of fact.
Well, I wanted you to know me.
It's also a fascinating part of the story.
Like, you know, first off,
I find you by the video, the TED Talk,
and I was like, "Oh, my God. Like, it's--"
Here's somebody saying nice things about "Chasing Amy"
in 2020.
Like, that's-- that's rare.
But then when we meet,
it's like, this story is going on,
it's still developing, and it's the story of your life.
And in an odd way, our life stories have now intersected.
I feel lucky that that you've given me so much of your time
and your friendship and mentorship,
whatever the fuck this is, like, I'm just grateful for that.
Are you kidding me? As a story teller,
to have somebody talk about the deep impact
that something you created made on their life and stuff--
it was just confirmation
that you don't get very often in life.
It was the gift of self back.
The first time we ever talked, you were like,
"You can never bother me."
And you explicitly said that to me.
And while I sometimes feel like I am bothering you
just by virtue of I know that you're busy,
I do appreciate everything that you've given me, too.
You've been there for me before you were there for me.
It's not just "Chasing Amy" at this point.
I gained a friend.
It's me paying you back.
It's not vice versa.
Don't you get it? Like fucking that--
What you did, how do I pay that fucking back?
You gave me my movie back.
- Are you eating a sandwich? - Yes.
Thank you for making this sandwich, Mom.
Provided by your mother.
I don't know what I learned from this whole thing.
I'm a fundamentally different person now.
Like, I feel guilty about the TED Talk sometimes
because I feel like you think it's,
like, Exhibit "A" of, like, what you call bad parenting.
And I'm like, "You're the hero in that fucking story."
Like, you are.
I knew that if I told you everything,
every fucked up thing that people did,
I would have to acknowledge that those things were happening.
I think it was, like, an internalized way of, like,
"I don't want my mom to know I'm such a loser."
Like, that wasn't, like, my thought process--
- Oh, Sav! - What?
Oh, you're breaking my fucking heart, kid.
I mean, but, like-- the fact that
you let me watch cool movies was, like,
the bit of solace I had when I was fundamentally
unable to communicate any of these things to anybody.
That's good.
The hardest thing about being a parent
is watching your child...
hurt and not being able to fix it.
I just made so many choices
that were absolutely the wrong choice,
not just for you, but for me, you know, for us.
But I mean, I think you are absolutely
the hero of of the story.
I know it's hard on you sometimes, kid, but...
you're the one.
And a lot of things could have been better for you,
you know, that I just didn't really know about.
I didn't know about it either.
I couldn't even Google trans stuff
because I was afraid it would make it real.
Couldn't even tell-- I couldn't tell you.
I couldn't tell Riley.
I was worried Riley would leave me.
She liked very feminine girls. I was never a girl.
- Ready? - No.
Let's talk about the fact that you still call yourself
a lesbian, despite being married to a man.
Very Alyssa of you. Can you talk about the weight
of other people's opinions on how you identify yourself?
It was a journey because, you know, it all came to happen
when I was starting to live my life,
you know, more freely as, like,
an out and proud queer person.
So I did start feeling a little bit conflicted,
but I think that's why "Chasing Amy" was so important
to me, because it made me realize
how labels were really not important.
And I remember, like, the impact that Alyssa monologue had on me,
and I was like, "She knows."
I feel justified lying in your arms...
because I got here on my own terms.
As empowering as it is to have a label for yourself...
And I have no question there was someplace I didn't look.
...I don't have to explain myself to anybody.
So in the end, all that matters to me is you.
Because this is my husband, and this is the love of my life.
Did you ever consider leaving me when I came out as trans?
No, because we had been together for so long
and we had been friends for even longer.
Life without you was not an option.
What happened to me in that moment
was that I just kind of started freaking out about like,
"What am I going to tell people?
Because I was just going around yelling, 'I'm a lesbian,'
Now I'm with a man." And then I was like,
"Well, you know what?
This is nobody's business but mine."
I love you, and I'm attracted to you.
Just be in love and just honestly--
just celebrate the fact that Sav...
can finally be happy and live his truth.
- Good answer. - Yeah.
I think it's your turn to ask me some questions.
So...
The Joey interview.
Yeah, the Joey interview.
What were you thinking?
The interview with Joey was definitely a turning point.
I learned a lot that day.
I'm sure it's much worse for Joey, having "Chasing Amy"
be her most well-known movie when she has
all of these negative feelings associated with it
than it was for me to sit there and have to grow up real fast
and to realign my expectations.
I don't need "Chasing Amy" the way that I used to,
and I shouldn't.
It was a life raft when I needed it.
And now...
Now I have new dreams.
This is "I Love You, Margot Robbie,"
written by Sav Rodgers and Taylor Gates.
Are you actually the real Margot Robbie?
If I'm not, I paid way too much for the sign.
Got married.
Moved multiple times.
Uh, pugs, excuse me.
We moved to Vegas.
Moved out of your parents' basement.
- Mm-hmm. - How are you liking that?
I like living with you great.
You are my favorite roommate I've ever had.
I've been making a documentary that forces me to be reflexive
on the nature of my identity
and be in a pretty vulnerable state
several hours out of the day.
It's not the movie I set out to make,
but it's the movie we have.
What would you say you are the most proud of?
I'm proud that I followed through.
This was really hard. All of it.
Boy from Kansas with few connections
gets the chance to tell a story,
connect with the guy that made him want to become a filmmaker,
and in the process of trying to tell this very specific story,
all of his dreams come true.
I mean, I've gotten everything I think I've wanted out of this.
- Yeah. - Have I thoroughly--
I think you got some new shit.
Have I thoroughly asked you enough questions
that are not your typical "Chasing Amy" fanfare?
Yeah. Yeah.
Is that-- Is that a good thing?
It's a great thing.
Like, I think that, like,
I just didn't have another bullshit
- "Chasing Amy" interview in me. - Thank God.
- You know? - Yeah.
And he gets to leave this part of his life where it is.
I just feel lucky.
I feel lucky to have you.
I mean, I don't know where I'd be without you.
This one time, you said, you know,
"You're making a love letter to Kevin Smith," or whatever,
but like, you're the only person
I want to write a love letter to.
If this movie doesn't say it, let me just say it explicitly.
Like, you are everything to me.
I don't need "Chasing Amy" anymore
because I have something real to attach myself to,
and that's you.
I...
will forever be better off...
because of what you've been to me.
And I don't mean to paraphrase Holden there, so.
Thank you.
After you.
♪ Asleep in electric beds
♪ Counting all our sheep
♪ But the sky up above our heads ♪
♪ It opened up
♪ A note from a stranger read
♪ You had to give into the things ♪
♪ That stand before you
♪ And still the distance from your house ♪
♪ To my front door
♪ It's exactly the same
♪ You said it's terminal
♪ The way I clean my sheets
♪ Such a poetic phrasing
♪ Don't you know it's wasted here ♪
♪ Ba-ba-ba ba-ba ba-ba-ba
♪ Ba ba-da-da
♪ Ba ba da
♪ And on the 4th of July
♪ We both looked to the sky
♪ And watched the stars exploding ♪
♪ All around our heads
♪ And on the 4th of July
♪ We both looked to the sky
♪ And watched the stars exploding ♪
♪ All around our heads
♪ And still the distance from your house ♪
♪ To my front door
♪ Well, don't you know it's
♪ It's exactly the same