1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:02,919 --> 00:00:05,213 * * 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 4 00:00:48,465 --> 00:00:51,468 So, okay. Let's go. Is it blue or pink? 5 00:00:53,011 --> 00:00:54,804 -Oh, my God! -(screams) 6 00:00:54,846 --> 00:00:56,222 It's a girl! 7 00:00:56,264 --> 00:00:57,974 Are you for real?! 8 00:00:58,016 --> 00:00:59,893 Oh, my God! 9 00:00:59,934 --> 00:01:02,604 Oh, my God! It's a girl! 10 00:01:02,645 --> 00:01:04,814 (man whoops) 11 00:01:04,856 --> 00:01:07,275 WOMAN: My God! 12 00:01:07,317 --> 00:01:08,860 MAN: I can't believe it. 13 00:01:08,902 --> 00:01:12,030 (indistinct) Is it a girl? 14 00:01:12,072 --> 00:01:14,741 -It's a girl. (laughs) -(screams) 15 00:01:14,783 --> 00:01:16,910 -("Be My Baby" playing) -(people cheering) 16 00:01:16,951 --> 00:01:19,287 GROUP: Three, two, one. 17 00:01:19,329 --> 00:01:20,997 (cheering, screaming) 18 00:01:21,039 --> 00:01:22,791 * I needed you so * 19 00:01:23,958 --> 00:01:25,085 (cheering) 20 00:01:25,126 --> 00:01:27,003 * And if I had the chance * 21 00:01:27,045 --> 00:01:29,089 * I'd never let you go * 22 00:01:29,130 --> 00:01:32,092 (cheering) 23 00:01:32,133 --> 00:01:35,345 -(cheering) -* So won't you say you love me? * 24 00:01:35,387 --> 00:01:37,889 * I'll make you so proud of me * 25 00:01:37,931 --> 00:01:39,265 (cheering, screaming) 26 00:01:39,307 --> 00:01:41,476 * We'll make them turn their heads * 27 00:01:41,518 --> 00:01:43,103 (cheering) 28 00:01:43,144 --> 00:01:44,646 -* Every place we go * -(cheering) 29 00:01:44,688 --> 00:01:46,606 * So won't you please * 30 00:01:46,648 --> 00:01:48,608 * Be my, be my baby * 31 00:01:48,650 --> 00:01:50,151 * Be my little baby * 32 00:01:50,193 --> 00:01:51,778 * My one and only baby * 33 00:01:51,820 --> 00:01:54,489 -(cheering) -* Say you'll be my darlin' * 34 00:01:54,531 --> 00:01:56,324 -* Be my, be my baby * -(cheering) 35 00:01:56,366 --> 00:01:58,284 * Be my baby now * 36 00:01:58,326 --> 00:02:01,496 -(cheering) -* Whoa-oh-oh-oh-oh * 37 00:02:01,538 --> 00:02:02,497 (yells wildly) 38 00:02:02,539 --> 00:02:05,750 Yeah! Yeah! 39 00:02:05,792 --> 00:02:07,836 (engine revving) 40 00:02:17,887 --> 00:02:20,181 (cheering) 41 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:22,976 (song pauses) 42 00:02:23,018 --> 00:02:25,311 -* Be my, be my baby * -(cheering) 43 00:02:25,353 --> 00:02:27,647 * Be my little baby * 44 00:02:27,689 --> 00:02:29,816 * My one and only baby * 45 00:02:29,858 --> 00:02:30,942 * Say you'll be my darlin' * 46 00:02:30,984 --> 00:02:33,111 * Be my, be my baby * 47 00:02:33,153 --> 00:02:35,905 -* Be my baby now * -(cheering) 48 00:02:35,947 --> 00:02:37,907 * Whoa-oh-oh-oh. * 49 00:02:37,949 --> 00:02:40,243 * * 50 00:02:51,254 --> 00:02:53,548 (song ends) 51 00:02:58,219 --> 00:03:00,430 * * 52 00:03:02,807 --> 00:03:05,685 SEAN SAIFA WALL: We live in a society that's so binary. 53 00:03:05,727 --> 00:03:09,939 And so, for me as an intersex person, where do I fit? 54 00:03:09,981 --> 00:03:11,399 Where do I belong? 55 00:03:14,361 --> 00:03:16,696 ALICIA ROTH WEIGEL: I was born intersex, 56 00:03:16,738 --> 00:03:18,698 between the two sexes. 57 00:03:18,740 --> 00:03:21,910 I have physical and anatomical traits 58 00:03:21,951 --> 00:03:26,414 that don't fall neatly into that male/female box 59 00:03:26,456 --> 00:03:29,042 that birth certificates would make you think 60 00:03:29,084 --> 00:03:31,544 is how the world is. 61 00:03:31,586 --> 00:03:34,214 You feel so alone and isolated 62 00:03:34,255 --> 00:03:37,467 and like your body is a problem. 63 00:03:39,928 --> 00:03:41,888 RIVER GALLO: There's this connotation of 64 00:03:41,930 --> 00:03:43,765 something that's ugly. 65 00:03:43,807 --> 00:03:46,351 That it's, like, gross. 66 00:03:46,393 --> 00:03:49,938 Or, like, something that is monstrous. 67 00:03:53,983 --> 00:03:56,569 Actually, our very existence proves 68 00:03:56,611 --> 00:03:59,823 that there is no pure male and female. 69 00:04:22,345 --> 00:04:23,596 -Ah. -What's up? Hi. 70 00:04:23,638 --> 00:04:26,266 -You look so beautiful. -Ah. Hi. 71 00:04:26,307 --> 00:04:28,268 -Thank you. So do you. -SAIFA: Wow. 72 00:04:28,309 --> 00:04:29,936 ALICIA: I do not. 73 00:04:31,980 --> 00:04:33,940 -(Alicia sighs) -Yeah. 74 00:04:34,649 --> 00:04:36,067 -You look great. -Thank you. 75 00:04:36,109 --> 00:04:37,569 (laughter) 76 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:41,114 JULIE COHEN: I did just want to start off asking 77 00:04:41,156 --> 00:04:43,199 the three of you how you feel, like, 78 00:04:43,241 --> 00:04:46,661 intersex people have been depicted. 79 00:04:46,703 --> 00:04:48,663 The way I've seen it, it's usually, like, 80 00:04:48,705 --> 00:04:50,457 -really sensationalized. -Yeah. 81 00:04:50,498 --> 00:04:54,127 It's like, "Oh. They have-- This person has both." 82 00:04:54,169 --> 00:04:55,378 -You know? -ALICIA: Yeah, yeah. 83 00:04:55,420 --> 00:04:58,673 It's just a complete misunderstanding 84 00:04:58,715 --> 00:05:00,675 of, like, our lives and experiences. 85 00:05:00,717 --> 00:05:03,386 You know, I'm lately even thinking, like-- 86 00:05:03,428 --> 00:05:04,929 talking about representation-- 87 00:05:04,971 --> 00:05:09,476 I would say the biggest thing is the lack of it. 88 00:05:09,517 --> 00:05:12,145 -ALICIA: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. -The just zero-ness of it. 89 00:05:12,187 --> 00:05:13,855 No one even knows what intersex means. 90 00:05:13,897 --> 00:05:18,526 And people fear what they don't know and understand. 91 00:05:18,568 --> 00:05:19,986 When I'm dating, it's always like, 92 00:05:20,028 --> 00:05:22,322 "When can I tell someone?" 93 00:05:22,364 --> 00:05:24,115 ("Call Me Maybe" by Boyce Avenue playing) 94 00:05:28,536 --> 00:05:30,663 * I threw a wish in the well * 95 00:05:30,705 --> 00:05:33,083 * Don't ask me, I'll never tell... * 96 00:05:33,124 --> 00:05:35,418 Want to come with Mommy? 97 00:05:35,460 --> 00:05:37,379 * But now you're in my way... * 98 00:05:37,420 --> 00:05:39,005 (Alicia grunts playfully) 99 00:05:40,215 --> 00:05:41,758 Good girl. 100 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,762 Yeah, Mommy's gonna do some swiping, okay? 101 00:05:45,804 --> 00:05:47,847 All right? 102 00:05:47,889 --> 00:05:50,392 No. (chuckles) 103 00:05:51,726 --> 00:05:52,936 No. 104 00:05:52,977 --> 00:05:54,354 (grunts) 105 00:05:54,396 --> 00:05:56,147 * Where you think you're going, baby... * 106 00:05:56,189 --> 00:05:58,066 Oh, I matched. 107 00:05:58,108 --> 00:06:00,402 No. No. 108 00:06:00,443 --> 00:06:02,821 Ooh, he's kind of cute. 109 00:06:02,862 --> 00:06:04,572 Dude-bro. 110 00:06:04,614 --> 00:06:05,865 No. 111 00:06:05,907 --> 00:06:07,992 Ooh, this guy has macaroons in the background. 112 00:06:08,034 --> 00:06:09,244 I like macaroons. 113 00:06:09,285 --> 00:06:11,871 Cute dog, too old. 114 00:06:11,913 --> 00:06:14,541 Oh, my God. He says, "Name is Josh. 115 00:06:14,582 --> 00:06:17,293 Trump 2020. No haters." 116 00:06:17,335 --> 00:06:18,712 (chuckles) 117 00:06:18,753 --> 00:06:20,463 Nope. 118 00:06:22,757 --> 00:06:25,385 Chiquita, baby girl, you want a treat? 119 00:06:25,427 --> 00:06:28,555 -* So call me, baby. * -(song ends) 120 00:06:28,596 --> 00:06:31,099 Dating has been tough. 121 00:06:31,141 --> 00:06:36,062 It's, like, markedly different than it was before I was, 122 00:06:36,104 --> 00:06:38,606 you know, out as being intersex. 123 00:06:38,648 --> 00:06:41,067 Before I came out on dating apps, 124 00:06:41,109 --> 00:06:42,569 I used to, like, clean up. 125 00:06:42,610 --> 00:06:44,654 Not to toot my own horn. 126 00:06:44,696 --> 00:06:46,740 My parents and doctors cautioned me about 127 00:06:46,781 --> 00:06:49,909 the fact that it would be more difficult being out and dating, 128 00:06:49,951 --> 00:06:52,996 because people don't know what "intersex" means, 129 00:06:53,038 --> 00:06:55,582 and they see the word and they think I'm walking around 130 00:06:55,623 --> 00:06:58,585 with something in my pants that I do not have. 131 00:06:58,626 --> 00:07:01,046 I have a new match. 132 00:07:01,087 --> 00:07:03,006 Oh, he's cute. 133 00:07:03,048 --> 00:07:05,175 I don't have "intersex" in my profile. 134 00:07:05,216 --> 00:07:07,844 The thing is, I feel like most dudes wouldn't even notice, 135 00:07:07,886 --> 00:07:10,638 'cause most guys just look at your picture anyway. 136 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,933 And, like, I shouldn't have to... 137 00:07:14,934 --> 00:07:17,270 ...label myself in a way that makes me feel like 138 00:07:17,312 --> 00:07:19,606 I'm a poster board for something. 139 00:07:19,647 --> 00:07:23,485 Um, but for me, it's kind of like, if I don't divulge it-- 140 00:07:23,526 --> 00:07:24,944 Ooh, this guy's cute. 141 00:07:24,986 --> 00:07:27,238 If I don't divulge it-- Oh, we matched. 142 00:07:28,323 --> 00:07:31,826 Then they'll find out on their own 'cause they'll google me. 143 00:07:34,162 --> 00:07:39,167 And if someone can't handle me, then sucks for them. 144 00:07:40,835 --> 00:07:43,171 (applause) 145 00:07:49,010 --> 00:07:52,347 Madam Chairman, ladies and gentlemen. 146 00:07:52,389 --> 00:07:54,474 I gave my talk today, 147 00:07:54,516 --> 00:07:56,851 the title of "Developmental Differentiation 148 00:07:56,893 --> 00:08:00,480 of Femininity and Masculinity Compared." 149 00:08:00,522 --> 00:08:03,692 I have two slides to show you, uh, for the, uh, 150 00:08:03,733 --> 00:08:06,236 for the chromosome, if we may have them, please. 151 00:08:09,948 --> 00:08:14,285 Here's a picture of the human sex chromosomes, uh, 152 00:08:14,327 --> 00:08:18,039 which are 46 in number. 153 00:08:18,081 --> 00:08:21,835 In the sexual differentiation of the human embryo, 154 00:08:21,876 --> 00:08:23,753 the norm is ordinarily male 155 00:08:23,795 --> 00:08:27,757 when the sex chromosomes are X and Y 156 00:08:27,799 --> 00:08:30,802 and female when they are a pair of X's. 157 00:08:31,636 --> 00:08:34,431 Society generally considers that 158 00:08:34,472 --> 00:08:37,517 XY chromosomes means you're a man 159 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,770 and XX means you're a woman. 160 00:08:40,812 --> 00:08:43,565 Although I was born with XY chromosomes, 161 00:08:43,606 --> 00:08:45,400 I was also born with a vagina. 162 00:08:45,442 --> 00:08:48,570 And so they assigned me "female" at birth, 163 00:08:48,611 --> 00:08:49,904 because they usually go 164 00:08:49,946 --> 00:08:51,948 based on the parts that you're born with. 165 00:08:56,870 --> 00:09:01,541 But another trait that was not visible on the outside 166 00:09:01,583 --> 00:09:05,003 was that I had internal testes. 167 00:09:05,045 --> 00:09:08,423 Um, I was not born with a womb. I was not born with ovaries. 168 00:09:08,465 --> 00:09:11,051 I was born with testes on the inside. 169 00:09:13,386 --> 00:09:17,015 The protocol was to remove those testes 170 00:09:17,057 --> 00:09:20,185 through what they call a gonadectomy, 171 00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:21,561 which, in my view, 172 00:09:21,603 --> 00:09:25,106 is a euphemistic way of saying castrating me. 173 00:09:25,148 --> 00:09:28,360 They removed my testes. That is castration. 174 00:09:29,319 --> 00:09:31,488 (laughter) 175 00:09:31,529 --> 00:09:33,782 (playful chatter) 176 00:09:36,618 --> 00:09:38,787 MONEY: Now, if you can imagine a person 177 00:09:38,828 --> 00:09:44,584 who looks like a 100% normal female when born, 178 00:09:44,626 --> 00:09:46,628 and yet this person is one who has 179 00:09:46,670 --> 00:09:49,005 no uterus from which to menstruate 180 00:09:49,047 --> 00:09:51,758 and is also lacking in tubes and ovaries, 181 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,011 uh, and, paradoxically, 182 00:09:55,053 --> 00:09:58,264 has the internal organs of male structure, 183 00:09:58,306 --> 00:09:59,849 then you have the story 184 00:09:59,891 --> 00:10:03,186 of this strange partial reversal in human beings. 185 00:10:06,064 --> 00:10:08,775 SAIFA: I think for me, growing up, 186 00:10:08,817 --> 00:10:11,069 I felt like a little boy. 187 00:10:18,952 --> 00:10:20,954 And I remember my mom was just like, 188 00:10:20,995 --> 00:10:24,332 "You are not a boy. You're a girl." 189 00:10:36,011 --> 00:10:38,054 * * 190 00:10:48,023 --> 00:10:50,525 Susanne. That was my birth name. 191 00:10:50,567 --> 00:10:53,278 Baby Girl Wall. 192 00:10:56,781 --> 00:10:58,825 Here it is. 193 00:10:59,951 --> 00:11:05,665 Yeah, so right here, they had originally put an X mark. 194 00:11:05,707 --> 00:11:08,084 Uh, for sex, they had put "ambiguous," 195 00:11:08,126 --> 00:11:09,794 and then they crossed it out, 196 00:11:09,836 --> 00:11:12,255 and then they put an X for "female." 197 00:11:13,548 --> 00:11:17,844 You know, it's written here literally in black and white. 198 00:11:17,886 --> 00:11:21,181 "There is no uterus." Never was. 199 00:11:21,222 --> 00:11:23,433 "Phallus is small." 200 00:11:26,269 --> 00:11:30,190 "Recommendations: Assignment of sex as female." 201 00:11:30,231 --> 00:11:31,608 It's underlined. 202 00:11:31,649 --> 00:11:33,568 "In the interest of proper psychosexual orientation 203 00:11:33,610 --> 00:11:34,861 "of the infant 204 00:11:34,903 --> 00:11:37,530 "and in order to protect 205 00:11:37,572 --> 00:11:39,282 "the parent's emotional well-being, 206 00:11:39,324 --> 00:11:42,035 "the mother has been told that the baby is a girl 207 00:11:42,077 --> 00:11:44,371 and will function as such." 208 00:11:45,747 --> 00:11:47,207 "Therapeutic goals. 209 00:11:47,248 --> 00:11:50,585 "Plastic repair to modify external genital 210 00:11:50,627 --> 00:11:53,797 to be consistent with female." 211 00:11:55,256 --> 00:11:57,801 That's fucked up. 212 00:12:00,303 --> 00:12:03,390 There wasn't even any thinking about it. 213 00:12:03,431 --> 00:12:05,058 It wasn't any sort of 214 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:08,770 asking or consulting with my mom. 215 00:12:08,812 --> 00:12:10,230 It was literally like, 216 00:12:10,271 --> 00:12:13,733 "You have a child that we feel is abnormal, um, 217 00:12:13,775 --> 00:12:16,277 and this is how we can make your child normal." 218 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:21,533 MONEY: When the, when the baby is brought in 219 00:12:21,574 --> 00:12:22,992 at the time of birth, 220 00:12:23,034 --> 00:12:26,371 it's-it's quite easy to make a-a proper diagnosis 221 00:12:26,413 --> 00:12:29,040 and to go ahead making the proper correction. 222 00:12:33,294 --> 00:12:35,296 RIVER (speaking Spanish): 223 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,092 -Okay. -Baby, what is it? 224 00:12:39,134 --> 00:12:41,344 Yeah, well, just relax, baby. 225 00:12:44,097 --> 00:12:45,557 Mm. 226 00:12:47,308 --> 00:12:49,352 (softly): Okay. 227 00:12:53,398 --> 00:12:54,566 Mm-hmm. 228 00:12:56,192 --> 00:12:58,403 -RIVER: That's me, right? -Mm-hmm. 229 00:12:58,445 --> 00:12:59,696 MARIBEL: Baby. 230 00:12:59,738 --> 00:13:02,490 Aw, you see. 231 00:13:02,532 --> 00:13:04,117 So cute. 232 00:13:04,159 --> 00:13:07,829 RIVER: This is my fifth birthday. 233 00:13:12,417 --> 00:13:14,502 I always liked cake. 234 00:13:23,261 --> 00:13:25,263 (both laugh) 235 00:13:26,222 --> 00:13:28,516 -MARIBEL: The Boy Scout. -Yeah, Boy Scouts. 236 00:13:29,476 --> 00:13:32,187 Wow, this is 2001. 237 00:13:37,692 --> 00:13:40,028 (sighs heavily) Wow. 238 00:13:45,825 --> 00:13:48,953 -RIVER: Yeah. It is. -It is. 239 00:13:48,995 --> 00:13:50,872 ("Born to Run" by Amy Macdonald playing) 240 00:13:50,914 --> 00:13:53,667 I was born in Hackensack, New Jersey. 241 00:13:53,708 --> 00:13:58,213 I was raised in a small town called Ridgefield Park. 242 00:13:58,254 --> 00:14:01,925 * On the day, we sweat it out on the streets * 243 00:14:01,966 --> 00:14:05,220 * Of a runaway American dream * 244 00:14:05,261 --> 00:14:09,182 * At night, we ran through mansions of glory * 245 00:14:09,224 --> 00:14:12,686 * In suicide machines... * 246 00:14:12,727 --> 00:14:15,438 RIVER: I'm a huge Bruce Springsteen fan, 247 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,148 as many a Jersey girl. 248 00:14:17,190 --> 00:14:21,403 * Fuel injection and stepping out over the line... * 249 00:14:21,444 --> 00:14:27,325 My parents immigrated from El Salvador undocumented. 250 00:14:27,367 --> 00:14:30,412 They owned a restaurant, a Salvadoran restaurant. 251 00:14:30,453 --> 00:14:33,832 * We gotta get out while we're young... * 252 00:14:33,873 --> 00:14:37,544 It really helped me develop a work ethic. 253 00:14:37,585 --> 00:14:39,170 What is that phrase? 254 00:14:39,212 --> 00:14:43,091 "Strap up your bootstraps" or "buckle up your straps." 255 00:14:43,133 --> 00:14:44,134 (laughs) 256 00:14:44,175 --> 00:14:46,386 Pull myself up from my bootstraps. 257 00:14:46,428 --> 00:14:48,096 * Whoa... * 258 00:14:48,138 --> 00:14:50,765 And that is where I grew up, in this blue house. 259 00:14:50,807 --> 00:14:53,727 My dad, my mom, my sister and I, 260 00:14:53,768 --> 00:14:58,231 we shared a bedroom until I was like nine or ten. 261 00:14:58,273 --> 00:15:00,734 * But till then, tramps like us * 262 00:15:00,775 --> 00:15:04,696 * Baby, we were born to run... * 263 00:15:04,738 --> 00:15:06,072 So, I grew up thinking 264 00:15:06,114 --> 00:15:07,574 I was just a normal boy, 265 00:15:07,615 --> 00:15:09,909 but at the same time, if I'm to be honest, 266 00:15:09,951 --> 00:15:13,038 I think I always felt, like, different. 267 00:15:13,079 --> 00:15:16,541 Like, I remember secretly putting on my mom's makeup 268 00:15:16,583 --> 00:15:18,293 or, like, you know, 269 00:15:18,335 --> 00:15:21,129 trying on her clothes when, you know, no one was around. 270 00:15:21,171 --> 00:15:23,423 You know, all those, like, things that, like, 271 00:15:23,465 --> 00:15:28,386 a lot of queer, trans or nonbinary people experience. 272 00:15:28,428 --> 00:15:30,805 But physiologically, I always thought, like, I was-- 273 00:15:30,847 --> 00:15:32,182 there was nothing wrong with me. 274 00:15:32,223 --> 00:15:34,392 -Stop! Don't record! -MAN: I'm not recording. 275 00:15:34,434 --> 00:15:36,102 -Then how come the red light is on? -The red light is on. 276 00:15:36,144 --> 00:15:37,979 MAN: Shit. All right. 277 00:15:38,021 --> 00:15:39,481 And one, two... 278 00:15:39,522 --> 00:15:40,940 RIVER: When I was 12, 279 00:15:40,982 --> 00:15:42,567 I had a doctor's appointment. 280 00:15:42,609 --> 00:15:45,820 It was just, like, uh, allergies or something. 281 00:15:45,862 --> 00:15:48,198 My pediatrician asked my mom, 282 00:15:48,239 --> 00:15:50,116 "Oh, when are you going to tell him?" 283 00:15:50,158 --> 00:15:52,911 And then she was like, "Oh, we're gonna tell him soon." 284 00:15:52,952 --> 00:15:54,329 I was like, "I'm right here. 285 00:15:54,371 --> 00:15:57,582 Like, what are you guys talking about?" 286 00:15:57,624 --> 00:15:58,958 A month later, 287 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,002 we all drove to the pediatrician together, 288 00:16:01,044 --> 00:16:04,297 and, um... 289 00:16:04,339 --> 00:16:07,550 then I went in by myself, and I-- 290 00:16:07,592 --> 00:16:10,804 my doctor told me that I was born without testicles. 291 00:16:10,845 --> 00:16:14,516 I knew that I had a penis, and I knew that I had a scrotum, 292 00:16:14,557 --> 00:16:16,101 and I didn't know that there was something 293 00:16:16,142 --> 00:16:18,103 supposed to be in that scrotum. 294 00:16:18,144 --> 00:16:20,438 Then my doctor pretty much explained how, eventually, 295 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,652 I would have a surgery to implant prosthetic testicles. 296 00:16:25,694 --> 00:16:28,279 The idea was, since I had a penis, to-- 297 00:16:28,321 --> 00:16:34,244 if I had testicles, I would fully look, um, "male" 298 00:16:34,285 --> 00:16:37,080 and my life would be-- I'd be fixed. 299 00:16:37,122 --> 00:16:39,374 (singer vocalizing) 300 00:16:43,003 --> 00:16:44,379 (song ends) 301 00:16:44,421 --> 00:16:46,339 BEN SHAPIRO: Here's the, here's the deal. 302 00:16:46,381 --> 00:16:48,091 For all of human history, there was an objective standard 303 00:16:48,133 --> 00:16:49,676 between male and female. 304 00:16:49,718 --> 00:16:51,636 It was out of simply looking at people's genitals 305 00:16:51,678 --> 00:16:53,471 and assessing them based on their outward appearance. 306 00:16:53,513 --> 00:16:55,348 Right? Which is still true for nearly all human beings 307 00:16:55,390 --> 00:16:57,017 on planet Earth at all times. 308 00:16:57,058 --> 00:16:59,436 That is not a myth. That's called science. 309 00:16:59,477 --> 00:17:02,480 Fifty-six. That's how many options you now have 310 00:17:02,522 --> 00:17:05,775 to describe your gender on Facebook. 311 00:17:05,817 --> 00:17:08,486 The social networking site is adding options that include 312 00:17:08,528 --> 00:17:13,324 transgender, intersex, whatever that is. (scoffs) 313 00:17:13,366 --> 00:17:17,328 The most inclusive definition of "intersex" is 314 00:17:17,370 --> 00:17:20,915 "Any variation in a person's sex traits 315 00:17:20,957 --> 00:17:22,459 "with which they're either born 316 00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:25,378 or they develop naturally during puberty." 317 00:17:26,171 --> 00:17:28,423 The existence of intersex traits 318 00:17:28,465 --> 00:17:31,968 shows us not only does that middle space exist 319 00:17:32,010 --> 00:17:34,054 between male and female 320 00:17:34,095 --> 00:17:36,181 but that there also is a lot of variation 321 00:17:36,222 --> 00:17:38,933 within those categories of male and female. 322 00:17:38,975 --> 00:17:40,310 It is possible to be 323 00:17:40,352 --> 00:17:43,063 a quote-unquote "biological female" 324 00:17:43,104 --> 00:17:44,397 and have testes. 325 00:17:44,439 --> 00:17:47,984 It is possible to be a biological male 326 00:17:48,026 --> 00:17:49,569 and have a uterus. 327 00:17:51,821 --> 00:17:53,948 I'm a full-blown hermaphrodite. 328 00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:55,950 Put that on your banner. 329 00:17:55,992 --> 00:17:59,454 * Mr. Houdini, you're a freak show. * 330 00:18:02,123 --> 00:18:03,750 DALKE: One of the biggest problems with 331 00:18:03,792 --> 00:18:06,044 terms like "hermaphrodite" is that they imply 332 00:18:06,086 --> 00:18:07,587 that people are born with 333 00:18:07,629 --> 00:18:11,007 a full set of male and female sex organs. 334 00:18:11,049 --> 00:18:12,425 It's not possible actually 335 00:18:12,467 --> 00:18:15,261 for a person to really have both. 336 00:18:16,304 --> 00:18:18,848 Because there's such a wide range of variations 337 00:18:18,890 --> 00:18:20,392 that people can have, 338 00:18:20,433 --> 00:18:23,228 there are really wide-ranging implications 339 00:18:23,269 --> 00:18:25,689 for that person's physical health. 340 00:18:25,730 --> 00:18:30,235 Unfortunately, the way that the medical community has responded 341 00:18:30,276 --> 00:18:32,946 to that complexity, historically, 342 00:18:32,987 --> 00:18:37,283 is to focus on managing someone's genital appearance 343 00:18:37,325 --> 00:18:38,785 and their gender identity. 344 00:18:38,827 --> 00:18:42,288 For some people, depending on their variation, 345 00:18:42,330 --> 00:18:43,790 a person may need 346 00:18:43,832 --> 00:18:47,752 really specific and urgent medical or surgical care, 347 00:18:47,794 --> 00:18:52,590 but in most cases, surgery is not medically necessary. 348 00:18:59,848 --> 00:19:01,141 (Saifa clears throat) 349 00:19:01,182 --> 00:19:02,642 SAIFA: "13-year-old Black female 350 00:19:02,684 --> 00:19:05,020 "with a history of testicular feminization 351 00:19:05,061 --> 00:19:07,814 who is noted to have bilateral gonads." 352 00:19:09,524 --> 00:19:12,986 "Patient never had her menses." 353 00:19:13,028 --> 00:19:15,989 I clearly had a very intersex body. 354 00:19:16,031 --> 00:19:17,991 Whereas in the original birth record, 355 00:19:18,033 --> 00:19:20,577 they had put, um, "a small phallus." 356 00:19:20,618 --> 00:19:23,163 And then by the time I was 13, it was like-- 357 00:19:23,204 --> 00:19:25,832 you know, it says right here. 358 00:19:25,874 --> 00:19:28,501 "A large clitoris." 359 00:19:28,543 --> 00:19:32,505 So, already everything was sort of, like, aligning 360 00:19:32,547 --> 00:19:37,385 to sort of reinforce this female gender identity. 361 00:19:40,764 --> 00:19:44,601 So my mom consented to the gonadectomy. 362 00:19:46,394 --> 00:19:48,563 The doctor told my mom, 363 00:19:48,605 --> 00:19:50,857 "These gonads, they have to be removed. 364 00:19:50,899 --> 00:19:52,359 They're-they're cancerous." 365 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,695 And my mom heard "cancer," and she was like, 366 00:19:55,737 --> 00:19:57,364 "Must be done." 367 00:19:57,405 --> 00:20:00,367 Later, I found that they weren't cancerous. 368 00:20:00,408 --> 00:20:02,327 They weren't. 369 00:20:02,369 --> 00:20:05,163 I was subjected to the gonadectomy, 370 00:20:05,205 --> 00:20:07,916 which was a removal of my testes. 371 00:20:07,957 --> 00:20:11,711 Which left me with two scars, bilateral scars on my belly. 372 00:20:12,671 --> 00:20:16,299 Yeah, I just remember, like, a lot of pain. 373 00:20:16,341 --> 00:20:19,719 It was just, like, a lot of pain. 374 00:20:24,057 --> 00:20:26,101 After surgery, 375 00:20:26,142 --> 00:20:31,272 the doctor came into my room followed by these residents. 376 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,693 No one wanted to know my name. 377 00:20:34,734 --> 00:20:36,903 It was just like, literally, you know, 378 00:20:36,945 --> 00:20:39,406 "Pull down, you know, lift up your gown." 379 00:20:39,447 --> 00:20:43,535 And, you know, here I am, 13 years old, um, 380 00:20:43,576 --> 00:20:46,746 naked, you know, in front of these residents, 381 00:20:46,788 --> 00:20:49,624 and they're just totally looking at me. 382 00:20:51,876 --> 00:20:54,421 MONEY: The appropriate surgical corrections are undertaken, 383 00:20:54,462 --> 00:20:55,630 and at teen age, 384 00:20:55,672 --> 00:20:58,633 the congruous hormonal therapy is given. 385 00:20:58,675 --> 00:21:01,136 And the result is not by any means as dire 386 00:21:01,177 --> 00:21:02,512 as one may expect. 387 00:21:03,638 --> 00:21:06,057 SAIFA: I was a boy in all this, like-- 388 00:21:06,099 --> 00:21:09,019 all these dresses and stuff. 389 00:21:09,060 --> 00:21:11,312 When they removed my testicles, 390 00:21:11,354 --> 00:21:14,441 they changed the course of my life. 391 00:21:14,482 --> 00:21:18,028 I did not consent to that surgery. 392 00:21:21,489 --> 00:21:23,700 ALICIA: I remember 393 00:21:23,742 --> 00:21:26,536 when my friends first started getting their period 394 00:21:26,578 --> 00:21:28,747 and they would start asking me for tampons. 395 00:21:28,788 --> 00:21:31,958 And I would never need a tampon because I don't get my period. 396 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,793 I don't have a uterus. I don't have ovaries. 397 00:21:33,835 --> 00:21:36,796 There would be nowhere for a period to come from. 398 00:21:36,838 --> 00:21:39,883 And yet I started carrying around tampons 399 00:21:39,924 --> 00:21:42,969 because I had to keep up this facade. 400 00:21:43,011 --> 00:21:44,679 I would have to... 401 00:21:44,721 --> 00:21:48,475 take these pills or use, like, dilators. 402 00:21:48,516 --> 00:21:51,895 They're, like, these, like, medical-produced dildos, 403 00:21:51,936 --> 00:21:58,276 because they want to make sure that your vagina is big enough 404 00:21:58,318 --> 00:22:00,236 to have penetrative sex with a man. 405 00:22:00,278 --> 00:22:01,696 Like, I couldn't even, like, 406 00:22:01,738 --> 00:22:03,406 share that experience, like, with my parents. 407 00:22:03,448 --> 00:22:05,158 Like, the doctors told me to do that. 408 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,078 And I was like 11 or 12, 409 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:13,625 like, using these dildos, like, alone in a closet in my house. 410 00:22:14,668 --> 00:22:17,629 RIVER: I had, um, an ultrasound performed on me. 411 00:22:17,671 --> 00:22:20,465 I just remember this technician, like, just, like, 412 00:22:20,507 --> 00:22:22,884 going over the same-- 413 00:22:22,926 --> 00:22:26,513 my groin, like, over and over again 414 00:22:26,554 --> 00:22:29,516 with this, like, icy cold, like, probe and the gel. 415 00:22:29,557 --> 00:22:32,185 And... and I just remember all these, like, students, 416 00:22:32,227 --> 00:22:35,355 like, gathered around me, like, watching. 417 00:22:35,397 --> 00:22:37,315 After some time, I, like, kicked one of them, 418 00:22:37,357 --> 00:22:39,067 and I was just like, 419 00:22:39,109 --> 00:22:43,488 "My testicles are not there. Just please leave me alone." 420 00:22:45,198 --> 00:22:49,536 I grew up with this belief that like, 421 00:22:49,577 --> 00:22:52,914 "Okay, I have this condition. 422 00:22:52,956 --> 00:22:55,834 I need to sort of keep it to myself." 423 00:22:55,875 --> 00:22:59,671 Doctors would tell my mom, "Oh, people won't understand. 424 00:22:59,713 --> 00:23:02,382 "Never talk about this with laypeople. 425 00:23:02,424 --> 00:23:04,843 Only talk about it with physicians." 426 00:23:06,261 --> 00:23:09,597 ALICIA: I had never heard the word "intersex" in my life. 427 00:23:09,639 --> 00:23:12,100 I was told that I had a problem, 428 00:23:12,142 --> 00:23:13,560 that I was being fixed 429 00:23:13,601 --> 00:23:15,603 and that I should never tell anyone about it, 430 00:23:15,645 --> 00:23:20,942 because if I did, then I would not be able to find a husband 431 00:23:20,984 --> 00:23:24,529 if they knew what I was. 432 00:23:26,281 --> 00:23:29,993 I don't think anyone explicitly told me to keep it a secret. 433 00:23:30,035 --> 00:23:31,786 However... 434 00:23:34,748 --> 00:23:36,583 ...why would anybody want to talk about 435 00:23:36,624 --> 00:23:39,669 not having testicles in high school? 436 00:23:39,711 --> 00:23:44,132 At 15 or 16, I had the surgery 437 00:23:44,174 --> 00:23:47,385 to put prosthetic testicles inside of me. 438 00:23:47,427 --> 00:23:49,721 None of my doctors said, you know, 439 00:23:49,763 --> 00:23:52,432 to have any kind of emotional or psychological support 440 00:23:52,474 --> 00:23:53,808 throughout any of it. 441 00:23:53,850 --> 00:23:56,436 I was looking at ways to cope with, um, 442 00:23:56,478 --> 00:23:57,937 just this huge secret. 443 00:23:57,979 --> 00:24:02,275 This body was a problem that needed to be fixed, 444 00:24:02,317 --> 00:24:06,237 and the fixing had to be a secret. 445 00:24:07,322 --> 00:24:10,617 ALICIA: Why does my brother not know about this? 446 00:24:10,658 --> 00:24:14,579 Why is there so much shame surrounding this 447 00:24:14,621 --> 00:24:17,791 that even within our own family we can't talk about it? 448 00:24:18,750 --> 00:24:21,670 DALKE: Secrecy has been just as big a part 449 00:24:21,711 --> 00:24:24,547 of medical treatment of intersex kids 450 00:24:24,589 --> 00:24:25,965 as the surgery has been. 451 00:24:26,007 --> 00:24:28,301 The idea being that if they knew about 452 00:24:28,343 --> 00:24:29,844 their medical or surgical history, 453 00:24:29,886 --> 00:24:34,307 then they would question their gender identity. 454 00:24:34,349 --> 00:24:38,019 Within the context of, you know, mid-century America, 455 00:24:38,061 --> 00:24:41,648 um, and a-a drive for a really binary assignment, 456 00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:46,528 that ambivalence was thought to be totally counterproductive 457 00:24:46,569 --> 00:24:48,154 to someone growing up, 458 00:24:48,196 --> 00:24:52,117 identifying as essentially straight and cisgender. 459 00:24:52,158 --> 00:24:54,035 So, in practice, 460 00:24:54,077 --> 00:24:57,497 virtually every child born with an intersex condition, 461 00:24:57,539 --> 00:25:00,667 that information was withheld for them. 462 00:25:00,709 --> 00:25:03,628 Um, in my own case, I was identified as having 463 00:25:03,670 --> 00:25:07,173 an intersex variation when I was six years old. 464 00:25:07,215 --> 00:25:09,676 My parents are both physicians, 465 00:25:09,718 --> 00:25:11,886 and everything that they read in medical textbooks 466 00:25:11,928 --> 00:25:14,514 and heard from my physicians said, 467 00:25:14,556 --> 00:25:18,059 "You should not tell her this about herself." 468 00:25:19,102 --> 00:25:21,688 COHEN: If-if you had to act out, like, 469 00:25:21,730 --> 00:25:24,482 what was the message about how open you should be 470 00:25:24,524 --> 00:25:26,234 about being intersex? 471 00:25:27,193 --> 00:25:28,528 (groans) 472 00:25:28,570 --> 00:25:31,698 Yeah. Totally. 473 00:25:33,408 --> 00:25:34,784 (laughing) 474 00:25:34,826 --> 00:25:37,162 (laughing): I'm not here. 475 00:25:38,121 --> 00:25:40,331 No, don't... (laughing) 476 00:25:41,624 --> 00:25:43,877 ("Our Lips Are Sealed" by Lionel Ziblat playing) 477 00:25:47,630 --> 00:25:50,216 * Can you hear them? * 478 00:25:50,258 --> 00:25:51,718 * They talk about us * 479 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,678 * They're telling lies * 480 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,472 * Well, that's no surprise * 481 00:25:55,513 --> 00:25:56,765 * Can you see them... * 482 00:25:56,806 --> 00:25:58,433 ALICIA: I was, like, tri-varsity 483 00:25:58,475 --> 00:26:00,268 and captain of different sports teams. 484 00:26:00,310 --> 00:26:04,606 And... part of that was, like, wanting to hit 485 00:26:04,647 --> 00:26:08,610 these validating factors to be worthy of-of love. 486 00:26:11,321 --> 00:26:13,990 * Yeah, our lips are sealed * 487 00:26:14,949 --> 00:26:17,660 * Well, we've all thought... * 488 00:26:17,702 --> 00:26:18,995 RIVER: Achievement meant to me 489 00:26:19,037 --> 00:26:22,082 a way of trying to define myself 490 00:26:22,123 --> 00:26:27,253 outside of this strange, obscure secret about my body. 491 00:26:27,295 --> 00:26:30,173 * Yeah, our lips are sealed... * 492 00:26:30,215 --> 00:26:31,883 SAIFA: Ever since I was younger, like, 493 00:26:31,925 --> 00:26:34,010 I really wanted something more. 494 00:26:34,052 --> 00:26:37,764 I'm an ambitious person for sure. 495 00:26:39,974 --> 00:26:42,310 * Our lips are sealed * 496 00:26:43,311 --> 00:26:45,939 * Our lips are sealed * 497 00:26:46,815 --> 00:26:49,067 -* Our lips are sealed. * -(song fades) 498 00:26:59,786 --> 00:27:01,746 SAIFA: There's a culture of shame and stigma 499 00:27:01,788 --> 00:27:05,625 and silence that surround intersex people. 500 00:27:05,667 --> 00:27:07,043 It's not just the surgeries themselves, 501 00:27:07,085 --> 00:27:10,839 but it-it's the voyeurism by doctors. 502 00:27:11,673 --> 00:27:14,300 It's the medical photography. 503 00:27:14,342 --> 00:27:18,847 This person becomes, like, a specimen. 504 00:27:22,183 --> 00:27:24,978 MONEY: Human hermaphrodites has been a field 505 00:27:25,020 --> 00:27:28,231 of my special interest over the last 11 years. 506 00:27:28,273 --> 00:27:32,652 That is, in the study of psychosexual differentiation 507 00:27:32,694 --> 00:27:35,947 in these people who are physical hermaphrodites. 508 00:27:35,989 --> 00:27:40,827 Their external genitals may tell a lie to their owner, 509 00:27:40,869 --> 00:27:42,328 as well as to other people, 510 00:27:42,370 --> 00:27:44,831 so that it's therapeutically high-highly desirable 511 00:27:44,873 --> 00:27:48,251 to have them surgically corrected at an early age. 512 00:28:01,222 --> 00:28:03,266 I-I definitely had 513 00:28:03,308 --> 00:28:06,227 some romantic encounters in high school. 514 00:28:06,269 --> 00:28:11,274 I had a boyfriend and a girlfriend. 515 00:28:11,316 --> 00:28:13,735 It was really scary. 516 00:28:13,777 --> 00:28:15,987 I was afraid that they would find out 517 00:28:16,029 --> 00:28:19,074 that the testicles that I had were-were fake. 518 00:28:19,908 --> 00:28:22,911 I think, for my girlfriend, 519 00:28:22,952 --> 00:28:26,039 I think I told her that I had testicular cancer 520 00:28:26,081 --> 00:28:27,874 and that that's the reason why-- 521 00:28:27,916 --> 00:28:30,710 'cause, you know, that I, that I couldn't-- 522 00:28:30,752 --> 00:28:32,337 God, this sounds so weird-- get her pregnant, 523 00:28:32,379 --> 00:28:33,588 like, when we had sex. 524 00:28:33,630 --> 00:28:34,964 So, like, we didn't use condoms. 525 00:28:35,006 --> 00:28:36,841 But, like, that was the excuse that I gave 526 00:28:36,883 --> 00:28:38,593 because I would rather had said that 527 00:28:38,635 --> 00:28:42,138 than, like, tell her the truth that I was never born with any. 528 00:28:48,395 --> 00:28:51,231 ALICIA: I felt like the way that I would be worthy of love 529 00:28:51,272 --> 00:28:54,234 was fitting this perfect paradigm 530 00:28:54,275 --> 00:28:56,986 of what a woman is supposed to be. 531 00:28:57,821 --> 00:28:59,864 If I got serious with someone, 532 00:28:59,906 --> 00:29:02,575 I was worried that that would, like, 533 00:29:02,617 --> 00:29:04,828 ruin all that love that we had built 534 00:29:04,869 --> 00:29:07,288 for them to know who I actually was. 535 00:29:13,795 --> 00:29:16,673 SAIFA: I feel like sex and sexual relations 536 00:29:16,715 --> 00:29:19,801 just bring you right into the-the muck 537 00:29:19,843 --> 00:29:22,053 of all your vulnerability, 538 00:29:22,095 --> 00:29:25,849 all of your pain, all of your trauma. 539 00:29:25,890 --> 00:29:27,976 Like, it just drops you right in. 540 00:29:29,269 --> 00:29:35,066 I started dating this woman in my senior year of college. 541 00:29:35,108 --> 00:29:36,609 This would be the first time 542 00:29:36,651 --> 00:29:39,070 that I actually had sex with someone 543 00:29:39,112 --> 00:29:41,114 where I was completely naked, 544 00:29:41,156 --> 00:29:45,285 and I was really losing my shit. 545 00:29:45,326 --> 00:29:50,582 I wanted to experience, like, our bodies together, but... 546 00:29:52,542 --> 00:29:54,127 I just... 547 00:29:54,169 --> 00:29:56,212 I think I was just so like, 548 00:29:56,254 --> 00:29:59,424 "My body doesn't exist in the world. 549 00:29:59,466 --> 00:30:01,384 "My body is just so different 550 00:30:01,426 --> 00:30:04,804 from anything that I can comprehend." 551 00:30:04,846 --> 00:30:07,307 I think the only thing I could mutter was like, 552 00:30:07,349 --> 00:30:09,267 "I-I can't do this." 553 00:30:11,770 --> 00:30:13,646 COHEN: Were any of you told 554 00:30:13,688 --> 00:30:15,523 by family members, by doctors, 555 00:30:15,565 --> 00:30:17,192 anything about the history of 556 00:30:17,233 --> 00:30:19,361 medical treatment of intersex people? 557 00:30:19,402 --> 00:30:21,613 -No. -ALICIA: What? No. 558 00:30:21,654 --> 00:30:23,740 -No. -No. -(chuckles) 559 00:30:23,782 --> 00:30:25,408 ALICIA: No. 560 00:30:25,450 --> 00:30:28,870 And that's the common thread with all intersex people is 561 00:30:28,912 --> 00:30:32,123 all the things that we learn about the community, 562 00:30:32,165 --> 00:30:34,501 about our variations, about anything, 563 00:30:34,542 --> 00:30:37,337 it's all, like, a self-journey. 564 00:30:37,379 --> 00:30:39,005 SAIFA: Right. 565 00:30:39,047 --> 00:30:41,508 You know, some people don't even find each other like we did, 566 00:30:41,549 --> 00:30:45,053 and, for me, I've learned so much about myself 567 00:30:45,095 --> 00:30:47,180 just through other intersex people. 568 00:30:47,222 --> 00:30:48,598 Yeah. 569 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,018 You know, there are anywhere from 35 to 40 variations, 570 00:30:52,060 --> 00:30:53,728 and I think, you know, 571 00:30:53,770 --> 00:30:55,355 depending on the variation you have, 572 00:30:55,397 --> 00:30:57,816 it's like you become an expert on your body. 573 00:30:57,857 --> 00:30:59,526 -ALICIA: Yeah. -SAIFA: You know? 574 00:30:59,567 --> 00:31:02,862 Whenever I've met people with AIS, 575 00:31:02,904 --> 00:31:05,865 it's just wild, like-- it's just, like, this-- 576 00:31:05,907 --> 00:31:07,367 it's a script. 577 00:31:07,409 --> 00:31:09,035 Remove the testes, 578 00:31:09,077 --> 00:31:12,664 put the child on, you know, progesterone or estrogen, 579 00:31:12,706 --> 00:31:14,332 create a vagina, 580 00:31:14,374 --> 00:31:17,752 make sure that, you know, the vagina is suitable 581 00:31:17,794 --> 00:31:19,671 for sex, you know, with your future husband. 582 00:31:19,713 --> 00:31:23,675 The treatment of intersex young people 583 00:31:23,717 --> 00:31:25,301 is totally based in, like, 584 00:31:25,343 --> 00:31:31,683 this 1950s ideology of, like, creating men and women. 585 00:31:31,725 --> 00:31:33,143 ALICIA: Yeah. 586 00:31:33,184 --> 00:31:34,728 MONEY: The difference becomes apparent 587 00:31:34,769 --> 00:31:36,354 even in childhood. 588 00:31:36,396 --> 00:31:40,150 When boys are out staking territory claims, 589 00:31:40,191 --> 00:31:43,069 constructing hideouts, forts and camps, 590 00:31:43,111 --> 00:31:45,238 and fending off rival intruder gangs, 591 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,825 girls are expending somewhat less energy, 592 00:31:48,867 --> 00:31:51,077 usually closer to home, 593 00:31:51,119 --> 00:31:52,912 making lairs and homes for the young 594 00:31:52,954 --> 00:31:54,956 and raising doll babies. 595 00:31:54,998 --> 00:31:57,500 ANNOUNCER: Tonight, a special report 596 00:31:57,542 --> 00:31:59,586 on the search for sexual identity. 597 00:31:59,627 --> 00:32:01,296 (applause) 598 00:32:03,173 --> 00:32:05,425 GERALDO RIVERA: Dr. John Money is a professor 599 00:32:05,467 --> 00:32:06,760 of medical psychology 600 00:32:06,801 --> 00:32:08,511 at the Johns Hopkins Medical Center. 601 00:32:08,553 --> 00:32:12,599 He's also the cofounder of the Gender Identity Clinic there. 602 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,225 TOM SNYDER: This week's issue ofTime magazine 603 00:32:14,267 --> 00:32:16,227 calls my next guest, Mr. John Money, 604 00:32:16,269 --> 00:32:19,272 one of the best-known sex researchers in the country. 605 00:32:19,314 --> 00:32:22,776 KEITH SIGMUNDSON: John Money was a-a psychologist 606 00:32:22,817 --> 00:32:25,612 who had advanced ideas of sex 607 00:32:25,653 --> 00:32:29,532 and had achieved such a position of prominence. 608 00:32:29,574 --> 00:32:32,827 RICHARD SHER: We are delighted to be joined by Dr. John Money. 609 00:32:32,869 --> 00:32:34,287 He's a world-famous sexologist. 610 00:32:34,329 --> 00:32:36,790 And it is nice to have you back again, Dr. Money. 611 00:32:36,831 --> 00:32:38,458 OPRAH WINFREY: It certainly is. 612 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:41,044 How many hermaphrodites are there born in this country? 613 00:32:41,086 --> 00:32:43,088 Nobody in the United States keeps figures on it, 614 00:32:43,129 --> 00:32:45,256 so there's no absolute certainty, but... 615 00:32:45,298 --> 00:32:46,966 WINFREY: Why? I would think we would keep figures. 616 00:32:47,008 --> 00:32:48,385 We just-- we just don't? 617 00:32:48,426 --> 00:32:50,512 I would have thought so, too, but we don't. 618 00:32:50,553 --> 00:32:53,515 DALKE: It's pretty unusual in the history of medicine 619 00:32:53,556 --> 00:32:58,937 for one person to be synonymous with a revolution 620 00:32:58,978 --> 00:33:02,273 in the treatment of a specific condition, 621 00:33:02,315 --> 00:33:05,443 and Dr. Money was single-handedly responsible 622 00:33:05,485 --> 00:33:10,156 for creating a new treatment paradigm for intersex people. 623 00:33:10,198 --> 00:33:12,492 It was really all him. 624 00:33:12,534 --> 00:33:14,828 SAIFA: I didn't know about Dr. Money 625 00:33:14,869 --> 00:33:19,332 until I was in my mid-20s. 626 00:33:19,374 --> 00:33:23,586 But growing up, I didn't really associate any of my treatment 627 00:33:23,628 --> 00:33:26,589 or any of the stuff that I was learning about with Dr. Money. 628 00:33:26,631 --> 00:33:28,591 ALICIA: Yeah, I'm-I'm more familiar 629 00:33:28,633 --> 00:33:31,261 with modern-day doctors. 630 00:33:31,302 --> 00:33:34,514 COHEN: So I'm gonna show you some footage about Dr. Money 631 00:33:34,556 --> 00:33:37,851 and his most famous patient, David Reimer. 632 00:33:37,892 --> 00:33:40,437 Um, David was not intersex, 633 00:33:40,478 --> 00:33:44,149 but his case with Dr. Money had so much influence 634 00:33:44,190 --> 00:33:47,193 on the way intersex people have been treated. 635 00:33:48,153 --> 00:33:49,529 NEWSMAN (over computer): Could a normal boy, 636 00:33:49,571 --> 00:33:51,239 if it was thought to be in his best interest, 637 00:33:51,281 --> 00:33:53,700 be brought up as a girl? 638 00:33:53,742 --> 00:33:57,078 MONEY: I have some very fascinating cases 639 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,040 that have taught me a lot. 640 00:34:00,081 --> 00:34:02,375 Because they were born with an error 641 00:34:02,417 --> 00:34:05,337 or a birth defect of the sex organs, 642 00:34:05,378 --> 00:34:10,342 there was a quite natural and legitimate uncertainty 643 00:34:10,383 --> 00:34:13,261 as to which way the birth certificate should be signed. 644 00:34:13,303 --> 00:34:15,263 NEWSMAN: John Money came to believe that between birth 645 00:34:15,305 --> 00:34:17,223 and the age of two, 646 00:34:17,265 --> 00:34:19,351 a child could learn to be either sex 647 00:34:19,392 --> 00:34:22,354 before it became fixed in its sexual identity. 648 00:34:22,395 --> 00:34:25,607 Science has debated sexual identity for years 649 00:34:25,648 --> 00:34:28,276 and referred increasingly to one particular case. 650 00:34:28,318 --> 00:34:30,987 He was born a boy, but as a baby, 651 00:34:31,029 --> 00:34:32,906 he became the subject of an experiment 652 00:34:32,947 --> 00:34:35,408 aimed at turning him into a girl. 653 00:34:35,450 --> 00:34:38,912 WINFREY: In 1965, Janet Reimer became the proud mother 654 00:34:38,953 --> 00:34:40,455 of identical twins. 655 00:34:40,497 --> 00:34:44,292 The baby boys were strong, healthy and happy. 656 00:34:44,334 --> 00:34:46,544 At eight months, Janet took them to the doctor 657 00:34:46,586 --> 00:34:48,046 to be circumcised. 658 00:34:48,088 --> 00:34:51,216 JANET REIMER: The doctor called us into his office, 659 00:34:51,257 --> 00:34:54,761 and he said, "There's been a little mistake." 660 00:34:54,803 --> 00:35:00,475 And then he said that, uh... 661 00:35:00,517 --> 00:35:03,395 David's penis had been burnt. 662 00:35:03,436 --> 00:35:06,690 They were using a cauterizing machine. 663 00:35:06,731 --> 00:35:09,234 -An electric current that cuts tissue... -Mm-hmm. That's it. 664 00:35:09,275 --> 00:35:11,152 ...and it was supposed to cut the foreskin. 665 00:35:11,194 --> 00:35:13,488 Yes, and something happened. 666 00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:16,157 Too much current came through. 667 00:35:16,199 --> 00:35:18,368 It cut the whole penis off. 668 00:35:18,410 --> 00:35:22,956 At the time, I guess the idea of reconstructing a penis... 669 00:35:22,997 --> 00:35:25,709 It was impossible at that time. 670 00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:30,839 My first words were, "My God, what are we going to do?" 671 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,550 The gender role and the psychosexual identity 672 00:35:33,591 --> 00:35:36,594 agree with the sex of assignment and rearing. 673 00:35:36,636 --> 00:35:41,182 We happened to be watching that show, and I'd heard Dr. Money. 674 00:35:41,224 --> 00:35:44,644 And he was very charismatic, 675 00:35:44,686 --> 00:35:47,814 very dignified in a lot-- 676 00:35:47,856 --> 00:35:51,317 He seemed like a man that really knew where it's at. 677 00:35:51,359 --> 00:35:54,654 The appropriate surgical corrections are undertaken, 678 00:35:54,696 --> 00:35:58,658 and at teen age, the congruous hormonal therapy is given. 679 00:35:58,700 --> 00:36:00,326 And the result is not by any means 680 00:36:00,368 --> 00:36:01,995 as dire as one may expect. 681 00:36:02,037 --> 00:36:06,416 I wrote him a letter, and he very promptly answered. 682 00:36:06,458 --> 00:36:09,502 He was most interested in seeing us. 683 00:36:09,544 --> 00:36:11,546 What did he say he could do? 684 00:36:11,588 --> 00:36:15,342 He said that our baby could grow up as a girl. 685 00:36:15,383 --> 00:36:16,926 KEITH MORRISON: Just like any other woman? 686 00:36:16,968 --> 00:36:18,219 JANET: Yes. 687 00:36:18,261 --> 00:36:20,555 With the help of surgery. 688 00:36:20,597 --> 00:36:22,515 NEWSWOMAN: At the age of 21 months, the baby's testicles 689 00:36:22,557 --> 00:36:25,226 were removed at Dr. Money's request. 690 00:36:25,268 --> 00:36:26,770 It was now up to the parents 691 00:36:26,811 --> 00:36:30,023 to nurture their child into a girl. 692 00:36:30,065 --> 00:36:32,359 JANET: Dr. Money suggested 693 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,653 that it was my responsibility to make her feminine. 694 00:36:35,695 --> 00:36:38,740 MORRISON: The Reimers were told they must stand steadfast 695 00:36:38,782 --> 00:36:41,368 behind their decision and must not tell 696 00:36:41,409 --> 00:36:44,621 either of their twins the truth. 697 00:36:44,662 --> 00:36:46,748 JANET: Well, the first time 698 00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:50,210 I put him in a dress... 699 00:36:50,251 --> 00:36:52,253 was a real trial, 700 00:36:52,295 --> 00:36:54,547 because he tried to tear it off. 701 00:36:54,589 --> 00:36:55,757 Oh, my God. 702 00:36:55,799 --> 00:36:58,718 JANET: Oh, my God. He knows he's been a boy. 703 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,888 DALKE: Once David was assigned female, 704 00:37:01,930 --> 00:37:05,725 the family was advised to move to a different place 705 00:37:05,767 --> 00:37:08,770 to keep from the twins any indication 706 00:37:08,812 --> 00:37:11,606 that there had been two boys instead of a boy and a girl. 707 00:37:11,648 --> 00:37:14,359 Neither one of the twins were ever told 708 00:37:14,401 --> 00:37:16,528 why they were going to see Dr. Money. 709 00:37:16,569 --> 00:37:18,905 NEWSWOMAN: It was a pilgrimage they would make annually 710 00:37:18,947 --> 00:37:21,074 for the next nine years. 711 00:37:21,116 --> 00:37:24,327 Johns Hopkins School of Medicine is world-famous 712 00:37:24,369 --> 00:37:26,746 for its work on sexuality disorders. 713 00:37:26,788 --> 00:37:30,000 The whole notion of sexual or gender identity 714 00:37:30,041 --> 00:37:33,795 was developed and experimented with in this institution, 715 00:37:33,837 --> 00:37:37,507 first and foremost by Dr. John Money. 716 00:37:37,549 --> 00:37:40,343 SIGMUNDSON: For John Money and his theory, 717 00:37:40,385 --> 00:37:42,595 this became a perfect experiment. 718 00:37:42,637 --> 00:37:45,098 You would have proof that 719 00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:48,101 indeed you could raise a boy as a girl, 720 00:37:48,143 --> 00:37:52,439 and they would be perfectly happy and successful. 721 00:37:55,692 --> 00:37:57,610 COHEN: So how did the case come to you? 722 00:37:57,652 --> 00:38:00,613 I was the head of the department of, uh, psychiatry 723 00:38:00,655 --> 00:38:03,992 for the school system in Winnipeg, Canada. 724 00:38:04,034 --> 00:38:06,619 I was just assigned this case 725 00:38:06,661 --> 00:38:09,539 because I was the senior psychiatrist responsible. 726 00:38:09,581 --> 00:38:13,877 Well, it was presented as if this was a working situation 727 00:38:13,918 --> 00:38:15,670 in which a young child 728 00:38:15,712 --> 00:38:20,133 had been reassigned from male to female 729 00:38:20,175 --> 00:38:22,010 under two and a half years of age, 730 00:38:22,052 --> 00:38:26,389 and that this was going to be-- uh, have a positive outcome. 731 00:38:26,431 --> 00:38:29,517 Did all the therapists know what had happened? 732 00:38:29,559 --> 00:38:30,977 Yes. 733 00:38:31,019 --> 00:38:34,230 And they were instructed not to tell Brenda? 734 00:38:34,272 --> 00:38:36,399 It was not our responsibility 735 00:38:36,441 --> 00:38:39,611 to inform Brenda about the truth. 736 00:38:39,652 --> 00:38:42,030 The mandate that we were given, 737 00:38:42,072 --> 00:38:44,783 with consultation with John Money and his people, 738 00:38:44,824 --> 00:38:47,452 was to help to raise her as a girl. 739 00:38:47,494 --> 00:38:50,830 Brenda didn't look like a girl at all. 740 00:38:50,872 --> 00:38:52,499 She was unkempt. 741 00:38:52,540 --> 00:38:55,835 She sat with her legs spread. 742 00:38:55,877 --> 00:38:57,754 MORRISON: Brenda was caught by a classmate 743 00:38:57,796 --> 00:39:01,883 in the girls' bathroom urinating standing up. 744 00:39:07,389 --> 00:39:11,267 When you were eight, nine, ten, 11 years old, 745 00:39:11,309 --> 00:39:14,604 what names did they call you at school? 746 00:39:15,397 --> 00:39:17,774 (sighs): Uh... 747 00:39:21,069 --> 00:39:23,154 Caveman, uh... 748 00:39:25,198 --> 00:39:27,742 ...uh, freak, uh... 749 00:39:27,784 --> 00:39:29,577 Just about anything imaginable. 750 00:39:29,619 --> 00:39:33,039 I didn't, I didn't comb my hair half the time. 751 00:39:33,081 --> 00:39:36,209 I wore wrinkly clothes. 752 00:39:36,251 --> 00:39:39,421 I couldn't see myself getting all dolled up. Then you get-- 753 00:39:39,462 --> 00:39:41,715 You want to hide in a closet. This is-- 754 00:39:41,756 --> 00:39:43,591 You know, it's embarrassing. 755 00:39:43,633 --> 00:39:45,635 You know, I mean, it's just like-- 756 00:39:45,677 --> 00:39:47,387 (stammers) You can imagine yourself. 757 00:39:47,429 --> 00:39:50,098 Try to go shopping wearing a dress, wearing a wig, 758 00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:52,976 and go shopping, and then you tell me how you feel. 759 00:39:53,810 --> 00:39:55,645 SIGMUNDSON: It became evident to me 760 00:39:55,687 --> 00:39:58,481 this wasn't working at all. 761 00:39:58,523 --> 00:40:00,483 I would go to the senior committee 762 00:40:00,525 --> 00:40:02,235 and, uh, say, you know, 763 00:40:02,277 --> 00:40:05,905 "We-We've got to tell the world that this isn't working." 764 00:40:05,947 --> 00:40:10,869 Some of the members of my senior team said, 765 00:40:10,910 --> 00:40:14,789 "Johns Hopkins will kill you. Your career will be over." 766 00:40:15,832 --> 00:40:19,252 Dr. Money published many articles 767 00:40:19,294 --> 00:40:21,212 on the, uh, progress 768 00:40:21,254 --> 00:40:23,465 that the twins were making. 769 00:40:23,506 --> 00:40:27,594 They were entirely positive. 770 00:40:27,635 --> 00:40:30,263 These reports were glowing. 771 00:40:30,305 --> 00:40:31,681 MORRISON: Brenda and Brian were ten 772 00:40:31,723 --> 00:40:34,893 when Dr. Money published this 1975 paper 773 00:40:34,934 --> 00:40:37,437 in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. 774 00:40:37,479 --> 00:40:39,147 "Brenda's behavior," he writes, 775 00:40:39,189 --> 00:40:41,983 "is so normally that of an active little girl 776 00:40:42,025 --> 00:40:44,819 "and so clearly different by contrast 777 00:40:44,861 --> 00:40:47,572 to the boyish ways of her twin brother." 778 00:40:47,614 --> 00:40:50,867 Is there any possibility that he thought 779 00:40:50,909 --> 00:40:55,330 the experiment to turn you into a girl was working? 780 00:40:55,372 --> 00:40:57,415 I don't think so. 781 00:40:57,457 --> 00:40:59,292 Nobody could be that blind. 782 00:40:59,334 --> 00:41:01,586 How did you feel when John Money told you 783 00:41:01,628 --> 00:41:04,381 that it was time to begin hormone treatments? 784 00:41:04,422 --> 00:41:06,633 I said, "Hell no. 785 00:41:06,675 --> 00:41:09,552 "Why do I have to take this medicine? I'm not dying. 786 00:41:09,594 --> 00:41:12,889 Uh, I-I don't feel that I need it." 787 00:41:13,682 --> 00:41:15,892 And he came up to me, and he says, 788 00:41:15,934 --> 00:41:18,895 "Well, it's to help you so that you'll wear a bra." 789 00:41:20,188 --> 00:41:22,691 SAIFA: When I look at 790 00:41:22,732 --> 00:41:26,528 his face, I just see so much pain. 791 00:41:26,569 --> 00:41:28,655 And the thing is, is that 792 00:41:28,697 --> 00:41:30,990 he didn't even have to go through that. 793 00:41:31,032 --> 00:41:34,160 You know, it didn't have to be this way. 794 00:41:34,202 --> 00:41:35,870 NEWSWOMAN: The child threatened to commit suicide 795 00:41:35,912 --> 00:41:38,498 if ever forced to see Money again. 796 00:41:38,540 --> 00:41:42,085 Only then did his father break down and tell him everything. 797 00:41:42,127 --> 00:41:44,170 DAVID: Then-- well, and then that made sense. 798 00:41:44,212 --> 00:41:47,007 You know, I'm not the one that's crazy. 799 00:41:47,048 --> 00:41:49,342 Like, I was scammed here, you know? 800 00:41:49,384 --> 00:41:52,303 I was, uh, I was taken advantage of. 801 00:41:52,345 --> 00:41:53,596 I was lied to. 802 00:41:54,723 --> 00:41:57,350 SIGMUNDSON: Brenda immediately made the decision 803 00:41:57,392 --> 00:41:58,727 that he was not a girl 804 00:41:58,768 --> 00:42:01,354 and wanted to do anything he could 805 00:42:01,396 --> 00:42:04,107 to assume his life as a male. 806 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,194 She underwent a very painful operation 807 00:42:08,236 --> 00:42:11,031 to have the breast tissue that had developed 808 00:42:11,072 --> 00:42:14,200 from the time she started the female hormones-- 809 00:42:14,242 --> 00:42:15,785 uh, to have them removed. 810 00:42:15,827 --> 00:42:18,872 She spent numbers of weeks in the hospital 811 00:42:18,913 --> 00:42:22,083 when they were trying to reconstruct a penis. 812 00:42:23,668 --> 00:42:25,378 MORRISON: As David struggled, 813 00:42:25,420 --> 00:42:28,715 the world's medical community still had no way of knowing 814 00:42:28,757 --> 00:42:31,801 that the case had been anything but a success. 815 00:42:31,843 --> 00:42:34,220 Dr. Money, the psychologist who for years had written 816 00:42:34,262 --> 00:42:36,639 that the changeover to a girl was working, 817 00:42:36,681 --> 00:42:38,099 hadn't published anything more 818 00:42:38,141 --> 00:42:40,727 to let people know what was now happening. 819 00:42:40,769 --> 00:42:42,937 SIGMUNDSON: The case was still in the literature, 820 00:42:42,979 --> 00:42:45,899 and it had now become part of the textbooks 821 00:42:45,940 --> 00:42:49,944 that medical students were studying all over the world. 822 00:42:59,162 --> 00:43:03,124 The entire medical literature on behalf of gender 823 00:43:03,166 --> 00:43:07,712 and sexual reassignment for intersex children 824 00:43:07,754 --> 00:43:11,257 was entirely based upon this one case. 825 00:43:11,299 --> 00:43:14,761 I had to let the world know what had happened. 826 00:43:14,803 --> 00:43:17,180 I went back to speak to David 827 00:43:17,222 --> 00:43:22,477 as to whether he would like to come out and tell his story. 828 00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:24,270 He readily agreed. 829 00:43:24,312 --> 00:43:25,897 MORRISON: Dr. Sigmundson 830 00:43:25,939 --> 00:43:30,360 and psychologist Milton Diamond wrote a 1997 paper 831 00:43:30,402 --> 00:43:33,238 revealing, without mentioning David's name, 832 00:43:33,279 --> 00:43:36,783 that the success story was not what it seemed. 833 00:43:36,825 --> 00:43:39,828 SIGMUNDSON: Our article was submitted to 834 00:43:39,869 --> 00:43:41,287 the British Medical Journal, 835 00:43:41,329 --> 00:43:43,623 to the New England Journal of Medicine, 836 00:43:43,665 --> 00:43:46,960 and to the American Medical Association Journal, 837 00:43:47,002 --> 00:43:49,004 and in each case, it was returned 838 00:43:49,045 --> 00:43:52,298 after approximately six months, saying, 839 00:43:52,340 --> 00:43:56,720 "We will not publish. It is too controversial." 840 00:43:57,971 --> 00:44:01,516 Eventually, uh, theJournal of Adolescent Medicine 841 00:44:01,558 --> 00:44:04,060 agreed to publish. 842 00:44:22,370 --> 00:44:25,874 DALKE: Money's work was summarily debunked. 843 00:44:26,958 --> 00:44:29,169 What's interesting though is it has been very slow 844 00:44:29,210 --> 00:44:31,921 to catch on in actually changing practice. 845 00:44:31,963 --> 00:44:36,259 The study was debunked in the 1990s, 846 00:44:36,301 --> 00:44:39,512 but the core of Money's conclusion, 847 00:44:39,554 --> 00:44:42,015 that we can make a social gender assignment 848 00:44:42,057 --> 00:44:44,351 and that surgery needs to happen early, 849 00:44:44,392 --> 00:44:47,937 we've really not been able to move past that. 850 00:44:49,689 --> 00:44:51,608 SIGMUNDSON: In America today, 851 00:44:51,649 --> 00:44:53,568 there are still places 852 00:44:53,610 --> 00:44:55,570 where pediatric surgery is performed 853 00:44:55,612 --> 00:44:58,740 based on the Brenda Reimer case. 854 00:45:00,575 --> 00:45:04,537 I think that there's a lot of people 855 00:45:04,579 --> 00:45:06,539 that are very interested in the quick fix. 856 00:45:06,581 --> 00:45:08,041 "Let's go for a quick fix. 857 00:45:08,083 --> 00:45:09,668 "Let's throw him in the surgery room 858 00:45:09,709 --> 00:45:10,919 and get this done and over with." 859 00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,546 But who's the one suffering? 860 00:45:13,588 --> 00:45:15,924 * * 861 00:45:23,932 --> 00:45:26,017 MORRISON: David and Jane. 862 00:45:26,059 --> 00:45:28,269 They've been married ten years. 863 00:45:30,730 --> 00:45:32,399 Thanks to reconstructive surgery, 864 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,151 David is capable of having sex. 865 00:45:35,193 --> 00:45:37,112 Though he can never have children, 866 00:45:37,153 --> 00:45:38,738 he's adopted Jane's three children, 867 00:45:38,780 --> 00:45:41,282 -who are now like his own. -(kids laughing) 868 00:45:41,324 --> 00:45:44,244 I'm... I'm married. 869 00:45:44,285 --> 00:45:47,831 I got three kids. I got a nice home. 870 00:45:48,998 --> 00:45:52,419 MORRISON: So, it worked out okay? 871 00:45:52,460 --> 00:45:53,962 Yep. 872 00:45:59,467 --> 00:46:02,554 If you could say anything you wanted to Dr. Money, 873 00:46:02,595 --> 00:46:04,848 what would you say to him? 874 00:46:05,807 --> 00:46:07,726 I don't know. 875 00:46:07,767 --> 00:46:10,311 Are you still angry at him? 876 00:46:11,646 --> 00:46:13,440 Sometimes. 877 00:46:13,481 --> 00:46:16,484 There's a lot of things that are unresolved. 878 00:46:23,324 --> 00:46:26,077 NEWSWOMAN: David Reimer's conflicted life 879 00:46:26,119 --> 00:46:29,330 cut short last week by a tragic suicide. 880 00:46:37,172 --> 00:46:40,383 Reimer's story made international headlines. 881 00:46:40,425 --> 00:46:43,887 He was the victim of a bizarre gender experiment, 882 00:46:43,928 --> 00:46:47,140 a boy forced to live his childhood as a girl. 883 00:46:47,182 --> 00:46:48,933 * * 884 00:47:13,041 --> 00:47:16,503 MORRISON: In earlier times when you told this story, 885 00:47:16,544 --> 00:47:19,255 your identity has been hidden. 886 00:47:21,341 --> 00:47:22,717 And now... 887 00:47:22,759 --> 00:47:24,636 The man unmasked. 888 00:47:24,678 --> 00:47:26,429 Yeah, the man unmasked. 889 00:47:28,682 --> 00:47:31,017 Perhaps this will save... 890 00:47:31,059 --> 00:47:34,187 other people from going through what I went through. 891 00:47:34,229 --> 00:47:36,564 Best way you can look at it. 892 00:47:39,234 --> 00:47:41,319 And that's why you're doing it? 893 00:47:41,361 --> 00:47:42,987 Yes. 894 00:47:44,155 --> 00:47:49,202 I lost my temper when I had heard there was... 895 00:47:49,244 --> 00:47:52,414 that I wasn't the only one that had this surgery. 896 00:47:52,455 --> 00:47:55,125 Well, not the surgery but this whole process being done. 897 00:47:55,166 --> 00:47:59,421 And because of my so-called success story, 898 00:47:59,462 --> 00:48:03,216 that others had to go through what I went through, 899 00:48:03,258 --> 00:48:05,927 and I-I had to try to right a wrong. 900 00:48:13,476 --> 00:48:15,186 All right. 901 00:48:24,612 --> 00:48:27,407 Here we are at the first ever 902 00:48:27,449 --> 00:48:30,285 International World Intersex meeting. 903 00:48:30,326 --> 00:48:31,870 -Whoo. -Yeah. 904 00:48:31,911 --> 00:48:34,581 (laughter) 905 00:48:34,622 --> 00:48:36,082 This is a historic moment, um, 906 00:48:36,124 --> 00:48:38,752 and this is about breaking the secrets and lies. 907 00:48:38,793 --> 00:48:44,174 I really give so much, like, credit and respect and honor 908 00:48:44,215 --> 00:48:48,386 to the previous generation of activists. 909 00:48:48,428 --> 00:48:53,016 I always mark the beginnings of the intersex movement 910 00:48:53,058 --> 00:48:55,435 in the U.S. with the founding of 911 00:48:55,477 --> 00:48:57,645 the Intersex Society of North America. 912 00:48:58,646 --> 00:49:00,315 Actually, I have a question for all of you. 913 00:49:00,357 --> 00:49:02,901 You know, you've told us that you were treated very badly, 914 00:49:02,942 --> 00:49:04,444 it sounds, by your doctors. 915 00:49:04,486 --> 00:49:06,696 SAIFA: There was a gathering of, um, 916 00:49:06,738 --> 00:49:08,615 intersex people. 917 00:49:08,656 --> 00:49:11,076 Ten hermaphrodites in one place. 918 00:49:11,117 --> 00:49:12,911 Has this ever happened before? I don't know. 919 00:49:12,952 --> 00:49:15,330 SAIFA: I think it was radical because, 920 00:49:15,372 --> 00:49:17,957 you know, at the time, there wasn't a context 921 00:49:17,999 --> 00:49:20,377 to understand intersex at all. 922 00:49:21,795 --> 00:49:27,133 These people were sharing their stories so vulnerably. 923 00:49:27,175 --> 00:49:30,053 I mean, I remember them 924 00:49:30,095 --> 00:49:33,306 removing my penis when I was five. 925 00:49:33,348 --> 00:49:36,434 LAURENT: How do you feel about the fact that was done to you? 926 00:49:39,270 --> 00:49:41,815 At times, I feel like hiding in the closet, 927 00:49:41,856 --> 00:49:46,236 because it's like, how can anybody accept, uh, somebody 928 00:49:46,277 --> 00:49:48,697 who's been this mutilated and this, you know-- 929 00:49:48,738 --> 00:49:50,782 Who can accept damaged goods? 930 00:49:50,824 --> 00:49:52,826 I did not have the surgery 931 00:49:52,867 --> 00:49:58,373 to change or feminize that part of my body until I was eight. 932 00:49:58,415 --> 00:50:01,501 It was done in a hospital in total secrecy. 933 00:50:01,543 --> 00:50:05,130 I was taken there and dropped off by my parents, 934 00:50:05,171 --> 00:50:07,173 who did not tell me why I was in hospital 935 00:50:07,215 --> 00:50:09,009 or what was going to happen. 936 00:50:09,050 --> 00:50:12,971 I had I don't know how many doctors and people 937 00:50:13,013 --> 00:50:15,181 come to, um, "look at the freak." 938 00:50:15,223 --> 00:50:16,933 I didn't present any physical ambiguity 939 00:50:16,975 --> 00:50:18,852 until I was 12 years old. 940 00:50:18,893 --> 00:50:22,439 I was a-assigned and raised a girl. 941 00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,192 And when I was 12, um, my clitoris started to grow. 942 00:50:26,234 --> 00:50:30,780 Um, I not only noticed its size growing more prominent 943 00:50:30,822 --> 00:50:32,782 but I loved it. 944 00:50:32,824 --> 00:50:34,325 The doctors that I were taken to 945 00:50:34,367 --> 00:50:37,662 in Peoria, Illinois, in 1985, 946 00:50:37,704 --> 00:50:43,960 I now know studied under a doctor who had himself studied 947 00:50:44,002 --> 00:50:46,254 under the illustrious John Money. 948 00:50:46,296 --> 00:50:47,881 You know, this is not unusual 949 00:50:47,922 --> 00:50:49,924 that I had my clitoris taken away from me 950 00:50:49,966 --> 00:50:51,885 without my knowledge. 951 00:50:51,926 --> 00:50:52,969 LAURENT: What'd they say? 952 00:50:53,011 --> 00:50:55,055 That they'd just make it smaller? 953 00:50:55,096 --> 00:50:56,514 That's what they say. 954 00:50:57,474 --> 00:51:01,102 And I want anyone watching this, be they, um, 955 00:51:01,144 --> 00:51:03,730 you know, historians or doctors 956 00:51:03,772 --> 00:51:06,983 or intersex people, wh-whomever, 957 00:51:07,025 --> 00:51:08,360 um, I-I want you to know 958 00:51:08,401 --> 00:51:10,445 that we are just the tip of the iceberg. 959 00:51:12,614 --> 00:51:14,282 SAIFA: I remember the first time 960 00:51:14,324 --> 00:51:17,035 I started taking testosterone. 961 00:51:17,077 --> 00:51:20,872 I moved to California late 2003, 962 00:51:20,914 --> 00:51:23,416 started taking T in 2004. 963 00:51:23,458 --> 00:51:25,835 The endocrinologist, he was like, 964 00:51:25,877 --> 00:51:28,338 "Oh, I'm gonna make you a man." 965 00:51:30,048 --> 00:51:31,925 First shot that I got, 966 00:51:31,966 --> 00:51:34,177 like, I literally felt my whole body. 967 00:51:34,219 --> 00:51:36,638 It was like a whole-body experience. 968 00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,266 But then I was like, "Wow. My nipples are sore. 969 00:51:40,308 --> 00:51:42,977 "I have water retention. I have panic attacks. 970 00:51:43,019 --> 00:51:44,562 This is terrible." 971 00:51:47,816 --> 00:51:49,067 This physical examination: 972 00:51:49,109 --> 00:51:52,362 "Lip hair, feminine facial features 973 00:51:52,404 --> 00:51:54,781 and C-cup breasts." 974 00:51:55,949 --> 00:52:00,245 "Eventually may desire genitoplasty and mammaplasty." 975 00:52:00,286 --> 00:52:03,331 Yeah, I did have top surgery, though. 976 00:52:07,877 --> 00:52:11,965 I have a distinct memory of, um, wanting to change my name, 977 00:52:12,007 --> 00:52:14,467 uh, at a DMV in San Jose 978 00:52:14,509 --> 00:52:18,763 and them just being so mean. 979 00:52:18,805 --> 00:52:21,266 You know? Like, literally laughing in my face. 980 00:52:21,307 --> 00:52:22,892 And they're like, "Oh, what is she trying to do? 981 00:52:22,934 --> 00:52:26,438 She wants to change her name to Sean? Ha-ha-ha." 982 00:52:30,525 --> 00:52:33,278 MAN (mispronounces): Sean Saifa Wall? 983 00:52:34,487 --> 00:52:36,156 SAIFA: It's Sean Saifa Wall. 984 00:52:36,197 --> 00:52:38,158 (Saifa chuckles) 985 00:52:38,199 --> 00:52:39,659 I had heard 986 00:52:39,701 --> 00:52:42,328 that the San Francisco Human Rights Commission 987 00:52:42,370 --> 00:52:44,706 was doing a hearing on intersex. 988 00:52:44,748 --> 00:52:47,250 I speak as one of many intersex people of color 989 00:52:47,292 --> 00:52:50,003 in this world who may not have access to email, 990 00:52:50,045 --> 00:52:51,755 LISTSERVs and resources 991 00:52:51,796 --> 00:52:55,133 to acknowledge and embrace their intersex condition. 992 00:52:55,175 --> 00:52:57,177 That's when I had actually-- 993 00:52:57,218 --> 00:53:01,222 for the first time, in front of a larger audience, 994 00:53:01,264 --> 00:53:02,932 I had said... 995 00:53:02,974 --> 00:53:04,684 talked about my body, 996 00:53:04,726 --> 00:53:09,189 talked about the people in my family who, um, were silent. 997 00:53:09,230 --> 00:53:12,567 I speak for my mom, mother of three children 998 00:53:12,609 --> 00:53:14,903 with partial androgen insensitivity syndrome, 999 00:53:14,944 --> 00:53:18,698 who carries guilt and fear of people discovering 1000 00:53:18,740 --> 00:53:21,409 her children's and brother's intersex conditions 1001 00:53:21,451 --> 00:53:23,870 and treating them unfairly. 1002 00:53:23,912 --> 00:53:25,372 My heart was pounding 1003 00:53:25,413 --> 00:53:29,709 because I had been silent about this for so long. 1004 00:53:29,751 --> 00:53:32,962 I do relate to years of estrogen therapy 1005 00:53:33,004 --> 00:53:34,464 and prodding by psychotherapists 1006 00:53:34,506 --> 00:53:36,383 who wanted to know if the estrogen 1007 00:53:36,424 --> 00:53:38,551 altered my attraction to women 1008 00:53:38,593 --> 00:53:41,721 or changed my presentation as male. 1009 00:53:41,763 --> 00:53:45,433 I can relate to interns and doctors inspecting my genitals 1010 00:53:45,475 --> 00:53:47,894 and gynecologists shoving their finger in my anus, 1011 00:53:47,936 --> 00:53:51,523 searching for a scrotum, but not telling me anything. 1012 00:53:51,564 --> 00:53:57,570 What I had experienced, no one should experience. 1013 00:53:57,612 --> 00:53:58,863 No one. 1014 00:54:00,448 --> 00:54:02,242 NEWSMAN: Lightning rod legislation is 1015 00:54:02,283 --> 00:54:04,577 -sparking an emotional debate in Texas.-(crowd chanting) 1016 00:54:04,619 --> 00:54:06,246 The state senate committee heard 1017 00:54:06,287 --> 00:54:08,248 -ten hours of testimony Friday -(gavel bangs) 1018 00:54:08,289 --> 00:54:10,083 on a so-called "bathroom bill." 1019 00:54:10,125 --> 00:54:11,584 ALICIA: The lieutenant governor 1020 00:54:11,626 --> 00:54:14,462 and governor of Texas had called 1021 00:54:14,504 --> 00:54:16,464 a special governmental session 1022 00:54:16,506 --> 00:54:19,092 to try to pass a bill, 1023 00:54:19,134 --> 00:54:22,095 which basically said 1024 00:54:22,137 --> 00:54:25,432 that trans people had to pee in a restroom 1025 00:54:25,473 --> 00:54:28,935 that aligned with the sex on their birth certificate. 1026 00:54:28,977 --> 00:54:31,730 GREG ABBOTT: We need a law that protects 1027 00:54:31,771 --> 00:54:36,192 the privacy of our children in our public schools. 1028 00:54:36,234 --> 00:54:37,944 ALICIA: I remember realizing, like, 1029 00:54:37,986 --> 00:54:41,948 "Wait, like, my story could help kill this bill," 1030 00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:43,575 because I kept hearing 1031 00:54:43,616 --> 00:54:48,246 the senators saying biological sex is cut-and-dry, 1032 00:54:48,288 --> 00:54:49,664 and what my story proved 1033 00:54:49,706 --> 00:54:52,125 is that biological sex is not cut-and-dry. 1034 00:54:53,251 --> 00:54:57,005 At the time, I was working for a former state senator. 1035 00:54:57,047 --> 00:54:59,758 All these senators knew me, and a lot of them have hit on me, 1036 00:54:59,799 --> 00:55:02,635 so I knew it would blow their mind when they realized that, 1037 00:55:02,677 --> 00:55:04,304 all this time, they had been hitting on someone 1038 00:55:04,346 --> 00:55:05,805 who was born with balls. 1039 00:55:05,847 --> 00:55:08,475 ("Oh, Pretty Woman" by Pomplamoose playing) 1040 00:55:08,516 --> 00:55:10,185 * Pretty woman * 1041 00:55:10,226 --> 00:55:12,479 * Walking down the street * 1042 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,314 * Pretty woman... * 1043 00:55:14,356 --> 00:55:18,318 At this point, I hadn't told my brother and my best friends 1044 00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:19,861 and people that have known me my whole life 1045 00:55:19,903 --> 00:55:21,613 that I'm intersex. 1046 00:55:21,654 --> 00:55:23,948 On my way to the Capitol is when I called my mom, 1047 00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:25,241 and I was like, 1048 00:55:25,283 --> 00:55:27,160 "I'm gonna come out today." 1049 00:55:27,202 --> 00:55:28,745 And she was like, "What do you mean?" 1050 00:55:28,787 --> 00:55:32,832 I was like, "I'm gonna tell the Texas Senate who I am." 1051 00:55:32,874 --> 00:55:34,417 * Mercy... * 1052 00:55:35,794 --> 00:55:38,254 Madam Chairperson and members of the committee, 1053 00:55:38,296 --> 00:55:39,381 thank you for your time. 1054 00:55:39,422 --> 00:55:40,882 My name is Alicia Weigel. 1055 00:55:40,924 --> 00:55:44,636 I'm a resident of Austin, and I have XY chromosomes. 1056 00:55:44,678 --> 00:55:48,348 It was, like, the scariest thing that I've ever done. 1057 00:55:48,390 --> 00:55:50,684 I stand here today-- or sit here today-- (chuckles) 1058 00:55:50,725 --> 00:55:54,270 representing the "I" in LGBTQIA, 1059 00:55:54,312 --> 00:55:55,563 which stands for "intersex." 1060 00:55:55,605 --> 00:55:57,565 Uh, because of a condition called 1061 00:55:57,607 --> 00:55:59,776 complete androgen insensitivity, 1062 00:55:59,818 --> 00:56:02,570 I was born phenotypically female on the outside, 1063 00:56:02,612 --> 00:56:04,030 with a woman's anatomy 1064 00:56:04,072 --> 00:56:06,241 but with internal testes instead of ovaries. 1065 00:56:06,282 --> 00:56:08,326 And so I basically wanted to tell them 1066 00:56:08,368 --> 00:56:10,286 that if they wanted to try to pass 1067 00:56:10,328 --> 00:56:11,788 discriminatory legislation, 1068 00:56:11,830 --> 00:56:14,582 they should at least open a biology textbook first. 1069 00:56:14,624 --> 00:56:16,626 Because people like me exist. 1070 00:56:17,502 --> 00:56:19,462 Because of my genotypic XY chromosomes, 1071 00:56:19,504 --> 00:56:21,423 does that mean that I've been 1072 00:56:21,464 --> 00:56:23,049 using the wrong bathroom my whole life? 1073 00:56:23,091 --> 00:56:25,051 No, it doesn't mean that. 1074 00:56:25,093 --> 00:56:27,804 In closing, I ask people to reflect on how many people 1075 00:56:27,846 --> 00:56:31,016 are alienated because their lives and experiences 1076 00:56:31,057 --> 00:56:34,394 fall outside of our "established" binary system. 1077 00:56:34,436 --> 00:56:35,979 Thank you. 1078 00:56:36,021 --> 00:56:37,897 (applause) 1079 00:56:37,939 --> 00:56:39,899 It felt so good. 1080 00:56:39,941 --> 00:56:41,735 I think that was sort of the beginnings 1081 00:56:41,776 --> 00:56:45,572 of, like, the fire for justice that was burning inside of me. 1082 00:56:45,613 --> 00:56:50,076 Um, this conversation will perhaps change the world. 1083 00:56:50,118 --> 00:56:51,244 Hey, what's up, Alok? 1084 00:56:51,286 --> 00:56:52,996 -How are you? -Talk to me. 1085 00:56:53,038 --> 00:56:54,414 Whoo, baby. 1086 00:56:54,456 --> 00:56:55,915 My presupposition is that there are two genders, 1087 00:56:55,957 --> 00:56:57,500 and if you would like to change my mind on that, 1088 00:56:57,542 --> 00:56:59,252 you're-you're more than welcome. 1089 00:56:59,294 --> 00:57:01,963 I hope that, like, my existence can shed some light for you. 1090 00:57:02,005 --> 00:57:06,092 I got into an online conversation with one pundit. 1091 00:57:06,134 --> 00:57:07,635 I was actually born intersex. 1092 00:57:07,677 --> 00:57:10,096 Our conversation got on YouTube 1093 00:57:10,138 --> 00:57:12,390 and has over 20 million views around the world. 1094 00:57:12,432 --> 00:57:14,017 If we're born somewhere in between 1095 00:57:14,059 --> 00:57:16,519 -in terms of our, like, biological traits... -Mm-hmm. 1096 00:57:16,561 --> 00:57:19,439 ...then how can it not also be true 1097 00:57:19,481 --> 00:57:21,274 that we might identify somewhere in between 1098 00:57:21,316 --> 00:57:23,610 in terms of our gender and how that presents itself? 1099 00:57:23,651 --> 00:57:28,114 We are receiving health care that is rooted in transphobia 1100 00:57:28,156 --> 00:57:29,783 and that's rooted in homophobia. 1101 00:57:29,824 --> 00:57:32,535 It's ironic that so many of these doctors 1102 00:57:32,577 --> 00:57:34,788 will use the rhetoric of biology... 1103 00:57:34,829 --> 00:57:36,331 -Right. -...when, in fact, 1104 00:57:36,373 --> 00:57:37,957 the body is the biggest argument 1105 00:57:37,999 --> 00:57:39,334 against the sex binary. 1106 00:57:39,376 --> 00:57:41,586 -Totally. -There have been and will always be people 1107 00:57:41,628 --> 00:57:45,006 who are born outside of these categories of male or female. 1108 00:57:45,048 --> 00:57:47,133 Why should they have to choose "I'm a male or a female" 1109 00:57:47,175 --> 00:57:49,552 if they were not born a male or a female? 1110 00:57:49,594 --> 00:57:51,763 There are some people who are born without feet. 1111 00:57:51,805 --> 00:57:53,640 There are some people who are born with a webbed hand. 1112 00:57:53,682 --> 00:57:56,309 We don't teach biology, uh, very-- based on outsiders. 1113 00:57:56,351 --> 00:57:57,727 Based on a spectrum of existence? 1114 00:57:57,769 --> 00:57:59,938 Intersex people become the problem 1115 00:57:59,979 --> 00:58:02,148 -and not society's prejudice... -Totally. 1116 00:58:02,190 --> 00:58:05,151 -...for policing people into the binary. -Totally. Totally. 1117 00:58:05,193 --> 00:58:06,820 Society can't keep up. 1118 00:58:06,861 --> 00:58:07,862 That's why biological studies matter. 1119 00:58:07,904 --> 00:58:09,322 So hard for people to keep up. 1120 00:58:09,364 --> 00:58:10,907 Like, it's so hard for those people 1121 00:58:10,949 --> 00:58:12,951 -and not the people who are being marginalized? -Yes. 1122 00:58:12,992 --> 00:58:14,536 I'm sorry I don't have a box of tissues for you. 1123 00:58:14,577 --> 00:58:15,870 So let me give you... 1124 00:58:17,247 --> 00:58:19,249 * * 1125 00:58:30,885 --> 00:58:33,304 RIVER: Being public-repping intersex 1126 00:58:33,346 --> 00:58:35,515 is really new for me. 1127 00:58:35,557 --> 00:58:38,852 For a while, I didn't know the word existed. 1128 00:58:38,893 --> 00:58:41,646 But when I did discover it, 1129 00:58:41,688 --> 00:58:45,900 I wasn't ready to face how angry I was. 1130 00:58:45,942 --> 00:58:47,861 For a while, I felt like it was easier for me 1131 00:58:47,902 --> 00:58:50,196 to express myself artistically. 1132 00:58:51,698 --> 00:58:55,827 I did my undergrad at, uh, NYU in acting, 1133 00:58:55,869 --> 00:58:58,788 and then I did my graduate, uh, degree 1134 00:58:58,830 --> 00:59:01,374 at USC at the School of Cinematic Arts. 1135 00:59:01,416 --> 00:59:03,752 I specialize in writing and directing, 1136 00:59:03,793 --> 00:59:06,796 and I've been in L.A. ever since. 1137 00:59:13,011 --> 00:59:16,556 COHEN: Can you say a little bit about how being intersex 1138 00:59:16,598 --> 00:59:17,932 impacted, uh, 1139 00:59:17,974 --> 00:59:20,060 your relationships with your parents? 1140 00:59:20,101 --> 00:59:21,186 Wow. 1141 00:59:21,227 --> 00:59:22,729 I mean, I guess, 1142 00:59:22,771 --> 00:59:24,606 at the moment that I found out when I was 12, 1143 00:59:24,647 --> 00:59:26,900 -I completely lost trust in them. -ALICIA: Yeah. 1144 00:59:26,941 --> 00:59:28,610 I thought I was betrayed by them. 1145 00:59:28,651 --> 00:59:32,364 And I think it gave me, like, an authority issue. 1146 00:59:32,405 --> 00:59:34,491 SAIFA: A lot of parents consent to 1147 00:59:34,532 --> 00:59:36,576 these procedures, like, 1148 00:59:36,618 --> 00:59:39,913 not really knowing the long-term effects. 1149 00:59:39,954 --> 00:59:41,581 I think a lot of parents do it 1150 00:59:41,623 --> 00:59:43,833 because they're really concerned about their kids. 1151 00:59:43,875 --> 00:59:47,420 Both my parents are dead, you know, so... 1152 00:59:47,462 --> 00:59:50,590 I think my mom carried a lot of guilt. 1153 00:59:50,632 --> 00:59:52,008 In my family, 1154 00:59:52,050 --> 00:59:53,760 people don't even want to talk about it. 1155 00:59:53,802 --> 00:59:56,137 The doctors told my mom, "You shouldn't tell your husband 1156 00:59:56,179 --> 00:59:58,890 'cause he can't handle it." Right? 1157 00:59:58,932 --> 01:00:01,101 -Um... -It's this whole thing. No one can handle it. 1158 01:00:01,142 --> 01:00:02,769 Right. Totally, you know? 1159 01:00:02,811 --> 01:00:05,939 What do you have to handle? The way that my body was born? 1160 01:00:05,980 --> 01:00:07,941 Like, what-what is there to handle? 1161 01:00:07,982 --> 01:00:08,983 (laughter) 1162 01:00:10,026 --> 01:00:13,113 For a parent to reconcile that decisions they made 1163 01:00:13,154 --> 01:00:14,906 might have actually harmed their child, 1164 01:00:14,948 --> 01:00:16,616 that's, like, a really scary thing 1165 01:00:16,658 --> 01:00:18,076 for a parent to understand. 1166 01:00:18,118 --> 01:00:23,039 My mom has since become a real ally. 1167 01:00:23,081 --> 01:00:26,793 She's even testified at New York City Council. 1168 01:00:26,835 --> 01:00:30,880 ...that Alicia had complete androgen insensitivity. 1169 01:00:30,922 --> 01:00:33,758 And if you've heard of that, I applaud you. 1170 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,886 I'm a nurse, and I had never heard of it. 1171 01:00:36,928 --> 01:00:39,305 It means that while Alicia appears female, 1172 01:00:39,347 --> 01:00:42,642 she is genotypically male with XY chromosomes. 1173 01:00:42,684 --> 01:00:45,478 We had a wonderful doctor who advised us 1174 01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:47,897 to the best of his knowledge at the time, 1175 01:00:47,939 --> 01:00:49,649 but never once did he suggest 1176 01:00:49,691 --> 01:00:54,320 that we keep an option open for Alicia to tell us who she was. 1177 01:00:54,362 --> 01:00:55,989 We should allow our children 1178 01:00:56,031 --> 01:00:58,158 the right to identify themselves 1179 01:00:58,199 --> 01:01:01,786 rather than rely on the snap judgment of a nurse or doctor 1180 01:01:01,828 --> 01:01:04,372 in the chaos of the delivery room. 1181 01:01:04,414 --> 01:01:08,418 These practices that surround the birth of intersex children, 1182 01:01:08,460 --> 01:01:09,627 they harm everyone. 1183 01:01:09,669 --> 01:01:11,212 -Wow. -You know? 1184 01:01:13,048 --> 01:01:15,175 * * 1185 01:01:16,843 --> 01:01:18,887 RIVER: Every time I come back to New Jersey, 1186 01:01:18,928 --> 01:01:20,597 it feels so familiar, 1187 01:01:20,638 --> 01:01:23,683 but I feel like I've changed so much. 1188 01:01:23,725 --> 01:01:26,478 There's something that I also find, like, 1189 01:01:26,519 --> 01:01:29,439 inspiring and beautiful about... 1190 01:01:31,232 --> 01:01:34,277 ...just how ugly it is. 1191 01:01:34,319 --> 01:01:35,695 (laughs) 1192 01:01:35,737 --> 01:01:38,948 You know, how, like, grim-looking it can be. 1193 01:01:43,912 --> 01:01:47,207 COHEN: Maribel, was coping with River's 1194 01:01:47,248 --> 01:01:52,170 childhood medical issues a challenge for you? 1195 01:02:09,062 --> 01:02:10,939 COHEN: Was there anything that you wish 1196 01:02:10,980 --> 01:02:12,899 you had known more about 1197 01:02:12,941 --> 01:02:16,444 or that the doctors had told you differently? 1198 01:02:28,248 --> 01:02:29,874 Two. 1199 01:02:41,344 --> 01:02:46,057 * I hear the rhythm of life in song, I know the... * 1200 01:02:53,148 --> 01:02:55,025 And that she'd just ask God 1201 01:02:55,066 --> 01:02:57,277 and pray to God that in my life... 1202 01:03:05,618 --> 01:03:06,953 I don't think she'll ever 1203 01:03:06,995 --> 01:03:08,580 get my pronouns right. 1204 01:03:08,621 --> 01:03:11,916 I think she'll always kind of 1205 01:03:11,958 --> 01:03:15,253 use more male language towards me. 1206 01:03:15,295 --> 01:03:17,964 But I give my mother a lot of grace just because 1207 01:03:18,006 --> 01:03:20,842 I know where she comes from. 1208 01:03:20,884 --> 01:03:23,636 She came from poverty. 1209 01:03:23,678 --> 01:03:26,181 Coming to this country not knowing English, like, 1210 01:03:26,222 --> 01:03:29,225 you know, she's done certain things for me 1211 01:03:29,267 --> 01:03:33,855 that I can't even fathom how she did that. 1212 01:03:34,981 --> 01:03:37,984 I just know that our relationship transcends even 1213 01:03:38,026 --> 01:03:40,612 maybe how I feel about my own gender, 1214 01:03:40,653 --> 01:03:46,493 because it's just pure... love. 1215 01:03:46,534 --> 01:03:49,162 (voice breaking): She just had faith that... 1216 01:03:50,246 --> 01:03:53,208 ...that I was gonna pull through in the end, and, um... 1217 01:03:56,711 --> 01:03:59,881 Because, uh, there are a lot of moments, and still now, 1218 01:03:59,923 --> 01:04:02,967 where I don't, I don't think I'm gonna pull through. 1219 01:04:03,009 --> 01:04:06,596 But my mom always knows that I'm gonna... 1220 01:04:06,638 --> 01:04:08,932 make it. (chuckles) 1221 01:04:10,767 --> 01:04:12,352 (kisses) 1222 01:04:12,394 --> 01:04:14,104 MARIBEL: Mm. Be strong. 1223 01:04:14,145 --> 01:04:16,022 Mothers are-- all over the world are all alike. 1224 01:04:16,064 --> 01:04:17,732 There's guilt, uh, 1225 01:04:17,774 --> 01:04:21,069 with things that were done, were done out of compassion... 1226 01:04:21,111 --> 01:04:23,947 out of love for your child, I think. 1227 01:04:23,988 --> 01:04:26,241 How can I hate my mother for that? 1228 01:04:26,282 --> 01:04:28,535 WINFREY: Did you think he would hate you? 1229 01:04:28,576 --> 01:04:29,953 -Yes, I did. -Mm-hmm. 1230 01:04:29,994 --> 01:04:32,372 -Did you hate yourself? -Yes. 1231 01:04:32,414 --> 01:04:33,873 Mm-hmm. 1232 01:04:33,915 --> 01:04:36,001 (David sighs heavily) 1233 01:04:40,422 --> 01:04:42,424 (ringtone playing) 1234 01:04:47,137 --> 01:04:48,680 -ALICIA: Hey. -SAIFA: What's up? 1235 01:04:48,722 --> 01:04:50,306 Hey, what's up? I'm Saifa. 1236 01:04:50,348 --> 01:04:52,684 ALICIA: I'm Alicia. It's nice to meet you. 1237 01:04:52,726 --> 01:04:54,185 Nice to meet you guys, too. 1238 01:04:54,227 --> 01:04:56,730 -I'm her mom. -ALICIA: And how old is she? 1239 01:04:56,771 --> 01:04:58,898 -(quiet clatter) -She is five. 1240 01:04:58,940 --> 01:05:00,734 She just turned-- You can probably hear her. 1241 01:05:00,775 --> 01:05:03,278 She, uh, just turned five in January. 1242 01:05:03,319 --> 01:05:04,237 -Yeah. -Wow. 1243 01:05:04,279 --> 01:05:05,780 SAIFA: I would imagine 1244 01:05:05,822 --> 01:05:08,324 -that it hasn't been easy... -Totally. 1245 01:05:08,366 --> 01:05:09,826 SAIFA: ...because, you know, 1246 01:05:09,868 --> 01:05:12,078 the culture surrounding intersex people, 1247 01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:15,457 it's a lot of, like, shame, and it's a lot of secrecy. 1248 01:05:15,498 --> 01:05:18,918 ERICKA: When she was born and I was at the hospital, 1249 01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:20,795 it-it was very secrecy at first. 1250 01:05:20,837 --> 01:05:22,589 Why are all these people here? 1251 01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:23,965 One, two, three, four. 1252 01:05:24,007 --> 01:05:25,467 Just different people coming in. 1253 01:05:25,508 --> 01:05:27,844 "Can you go get the doctor? Can you go get the..." 1254 01:05:27,886 --> 01:05:30,430 So they put on her bracelet "unknown." 1255 01:05:30,472 --> 01:05:33,183 And when they put on her bracelet "U-N-K" 1256 01:05:33,224 --> 01:05:35,435 is when I realized, because, 1257 01:05:35,477 --> 01:05:37,187 my-- you know, I compared it to my bracelet, 1258 01:05:37,228 --> 01:05:38,688 and on my bracelet, it said, you know, "female." 1259 01:05:38,730 --> 01:05:42,108 I had never heard of, like, the term "intersex." 1260 01:05:42,150 --> 01:05:43,943 Nothing like that. 1261 01:05:43,985 --> 01:05:45,570 And what sort of guidance did they give you? 1262 01:05:45,612 --> 01:05:47,864 Everyone just kind of was like, "What do you want to do?" 1263 01:05:47,906 --> 01:05:49,199 And we were trying to figure out 1264 01:05:49,240 --> 01:05:51,242 what gender we wanted to assign her, 1265 01:05:51,284 --> 01:05:53,870 so I had, like, maybe three, four days, 1266 01:05:53,912 --> 01:05:57,332 um, in the hospital to kind of decide. 1267 01:05:57,374 --> 01:05:59,626 Ericka, did you end up finding out 1268 01:05:59,668 --> 01:06:02,796 what (bleep), um, variation is? 1269 01:06:02,837 --> 01:06:04,172 Partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. 1270 01:06:04,214 --> 01:06:06,800 Like, she has the internal testes, 1271 01:06:06,841 --> 01:06:09,010 but she doesn't have a vaginal canal. 1272 01:06:09,052 --> 01:06:11,346 And are they trying to, um, 1273 01:06:11,388 --> 01:06:15,225 push for you to remove the testes, or no? 1274 01:06:15,266 --> 01:06:18,311 No. So they, um, they did mention that, like, 1275 01:06:18,353 --> 01:06:21,147 the testes internal can eventually maybe cause cancer, 1276 01:06:21,189 --> 01:06:22,941 but it's, like, a rare maybe. 1277 01:06:22,982 --> 01:06:24,150 It was just like, "You know what? 1278 01:06:24,192 --> 01:06:25,652 "We don't need to do anything right now 1279 01:06:25,694 --> 01:06:27,487 till she gets older and can really decide." 1280 01:06:27,529 --> 01:06:29,531 -That sounds awesome. -That's so great. Huh. 1281 01:06:29,572 --> 01:06:32,534 -ALICIA: Very different than our experiences. -Wow. 1282 01:06:32,575 --> 01:06:34,494 So, the only time they actually brought up surgery 1283 01:06:34,536 --> 01:06:36,121 was for the intent of, 1284 01:06:36,162 --> 01:06:38,331 "Okay, like, if she does decide to be a girl, 1285 01:06:38,373 --> 01:06:40,667 "then we could do the vaginal canal, 1286 01:06:40,709 --> 01:06:44,170 you know, at an age that you guys feel comfortable with." 1287 01:06:44,212 --> 01:06:45,964 ALICIA: If that's something that she actively wants 1288 01:06:46,006 --> 01:06:47,257 -when she's old enough... -Totally. 1289 01:06:47,298 --> 01:06:48,675 ...to make that decision for herself. 1290 01:06:48,717 --> 01:06:50,093 -Totally. Totally. -Yeah. 1291 01:06:50,135 --> 01:06:53,179 They did the genetic testing on me and her dad, 1292 01:06:53,221 --> 01:06:56,099 and her-- it wasn't in-in the dad's side; it was in my side. 1293 01:06:56,141 --> 01:06:58,268 Uh, you know, they-they told me not to have kids. 1294 01:06:58,309 --> 01:07:00,437 Well, that's deep that they told you 1295 01:07:00,478 --> 01:07:02,105 -not to have any more kids... -ALICIA: Yeah. 1296 01:07:02,147 --> 01:07:05,442 ...because that's very, like, intersexphobic. 1297 01:07:05,483 --> 01:07:08,028 Um, because I think it's beautiful. 1298 01:07:08,069 --> 01:07:10,113 I think it's a gift when, you know, 1299 01:07:10,155 --> 01:07:12,615 parents get to have children that are intersex. 1300 01:07:12,657 --> 01:07:16,327 DALKE: Gender identity is really, really complicated, 1301 01:07:16,369 --> 01:07:19,122 and it evolves for people over time. 1302 01:07:19,164 --> 01:07:22,500 Parents can, and most of the time do, 1303 01:07:22,542 --> 01:07:25,503 decide to raise their child as either a girl or a boy, 1304 01:07:25,545 --> 01:07:27,881 but their child's gender identity 1305 01:07:27,922 --> 01:07:30,425 very likely will change over time. 1306 01:07:30,467 --> 01:07:33,219 Unless surgery is medically necessary, 1307 01:07:33,261 --> 01:07:35,221 we really should be waiting 1308 01:07:35,263 --> 01:07:38,725 to perform irreversible medical and surgical interventions 1309 01:07:38,767 --> 01:07:42,354 until a child is old enough to tell us who they are 1310 01:07:42,395 --> 01:07:44,647 and to really be able to participate in the decision. 1311 01:07:44,689 --> 01:07:49,069 And for some people, we shouldn't do surgery at all. 1312 01:07:49,110 --> 01:07:51,404 * * 1313 01:08:01,581 --> 01:08:04,334 WOMAN: All right. Actors, go please. 1314 01:08:04,376 --> 01:08:06,211 RIVER (as Fool): That serves and seeks for gain, 1315 01:08:06,252 --> 01:08:08,588 And follows but for form, 1316 01:08:08,630 --> 01:08:10,423 Will pack when it begins to rain, 1317 01:08:10,465 --> 01:08:12,550 And leave thee in the storm. 1318 01:08:16,638 --> 01:08:18,139 ACTOR (as Gloucester): Well, my good lord, 1319 01:08:18,181 --> 01:08:20,225 I have informed her so. 1320 01:08:20,266 --> 01:08:22,769 JOE MORTON (as King Lear): Informed her?! 1321 01:08:22,811 --> 01:08:24,771 -Dost thou understand me, man? -Ay, my lord. 1322 01:08:24,813 --> 01:08:28,775 The king would speak with Regan. 1323 01:08:28,817 --> 01:08:33,530 * Way out there beyond this hick town, Barnaby * 1324 01:08:34,322 --> 01:08:37,367 * There's a slick town, Barnaby... * 1325 01:08:38,660 --> 01:08:42,497 RIVER: If I had seen myself in high school 1326 01:08:42,539 --> 01:08:45,500 and known of who I was going to be, 1327 01:08:45,542 --> 01:08:48,128 I would have felt so much less alone. 1328 01:08:48,169 --> 01:08:50,171 * * 1329 01:08:53,842 --> 01:08:59,681 There are no notable intersex actors in the world. 1330 01:09:00,682 --> 01:09:03,810 But there are so many intersex people. 1331 01:09:03,852 --> 01:09:05,478 My last year at NYU, 1332 01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:08,481 I started meeting agents and managers 1333 01:09:08,523 --> 01:09:09,816 who all just were like... 1334 01:09:09,858 --> 01:09:10,942 Down, wantons, down! 1335 01:09:10,984 --> 01:09:12,694 "You're cool, but, like, 1336 01:09:12,736 --> 01:09:16,531 we don't really know where to place you." 1337 01:09:16,573 --> 01:09:19,325 I thought, "I need to put all my cards on the table, 1338 01:09:19,367 --> 01:09:21,578 "and I just need to create art 1339 01:09:21,619 --> 01:09:26,332 that is just, like, dripping with River." 1340 01:09:27,500 --> 01:09:30,962 Just existing as an intersex person 1341 01:09:31,004 --> 01:09:34,674 is grounds for celebration 1342 01:09:34,716 --> 01:09:38,386 in a whole world that doesn't see us. 1343 01:09:38,428 --> 01:09:40,513 But you know what? 1344 01:09:40,555 --> 01:09:41,890 We are here now. 1345 01:09:45,685 --> 01:09:48,021 (horn honks) 1346 01:09:48,063 --> 01:09:50,357 * * 1347 01:10:02,744 --> 01:10:05,246 SAIFA: I think, um, I'm ready to see, 1348 01:10:05,288 --> 01:10:07,040 um, the exhibit. 1349 01:10:07,082 --> 01:10:10,210 It's gonna be artists' work from all over the world. 1350 01:10:10,251 --> 01:10:12,712 It's all intersex people, which is rad. 1351 01:10:12,754 --> 01:10:15,590 And I think it's gonna be wild to kind of see myself, like, 1352 01:10:15,632 --> 01:10:18,259 butt naked, you know, like, "Wow," you know. 1353 01:10:18,301 --> 01:10:19,886 For the art. For the movement. 1354 01:10:22,764 --> 01:10:27,686 When I decided to do this photography series, 1355 01:10:27,727 --> 01:10:32,941 it's kind of like that final offering of my physical body. 1356 01:10:34,067 --> 01:10:35,485 This is not the story 1357 01:10:35,527 --> 01:10:37,987 that doctors had already laid out for me. 1358 01:10:38,029 --> 01:10:41,032 I get to write my own script. 1359 01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:53,920 Oh, wow. (squeals softly) 1360 01:10:53,962 --> 01:10:57,132 That's wild. That's so wild. 1361 01:10:57,173 --> 01:10:58,675 Wow. 1362 01:11:31,958 --> 01:11:33,668 (exhales heavily) 1363 01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,051 Yeah, so this work is... 1364 01:11:41,092 --> 01:11:42,969 Yeah, it's all different bodies. 1365 01:11:43,011 --> 01:11:45,513 There is no body the same. 1366 01:12:00,028 --> 01:12:01,696 -(stammers) Wait. In there? -(laughs) Yeah, yeah. 1367 01:12:01,738 --> 01:12:03,323 -Yeah. Go through. -I didn't see it. (laughs) 1368 01:12:03,365 --> 01:12:05,367 WEIB: The one we took. Hold on, I'll bring it. 1369 01:12:07,369 --> 01:12:09,162 -Over here. -SAIFA: Right. 1370 01:12:09,204 --> 01:12:11,081 You see. 1371 01:12:11,122 --> 01:12:12,916 SAIFA: Wow. 1372 01:12:14,876 --> 01:12:17,087 Aw. Aw. 1373 01:12:23,343 --> 01:12:27,722 Utopia would also have to be a world 1374 01:12:27,764 --> 01:12:32,060 where no one ever had to go through trauma. 1375 01:12:35,397 --> 01:12:36,606 Right. 1376 01:12:43,405 --> 01:12:44,989 SAIFA: Right. 1377 01:12:45,949 --> 01:12:49,661 I think what makes me really, like, like, sad-- 1378 01:12:49,703 --> 01:12:55,375 Like, I was going through the exhibit, and, like, 1379 01:12:55,417 --> 01:12:58,586 you know, my heart, like, hurt, you know? 1380 01:12:58,628 --> 01:13:01,548 Just-- all over the world, 1381 01:13:01,589 --> 01:13:04,592 we've been saying, like, what happened to us, 1382 01:13:04,634 --> 01:13:05,927 like, why this should stop. 1383 01:13:05,969 --> 01:13:08,346 Like, we just been saying it, you know? 1384 01:13:08,388 --> 01:13:11,891 It just makes me so angry. 1385 01:13:11,933 --> 01:13:15,770 For 30 years, we've been saying the same thing, 1386 01:13:15,812 --> 01:13:18,815 and it's just like they won't fucking listen. 1387 01:13:22,110 --> 01:13:25,905 I had wanted to be perceived in the world 1388 01:13:25,947 --> 01:13:30,577 as male all the time, and that didn't happen. 1389 01:13:30,618 --> 01:13:33,955 I definitely had suicidal thoughts. 1390 01:13:33,997 --> 01:13:36,207 I thought to myself, 1391 01:13:36,249 --> 01:13:39,336 "Maybe I shouldn't exist." 1392 01:13:39,377 --> 01:13:40,962 You know? 1393 01:13:42,130 --> 01:13:44,466 But if I don't exist, 1394 01:13:44,507 --> 01:13:47,635 no one will ever know my story. 1395 01:13:49,471 --> 01:13:51,431 MANI MITCHELL: I just hope that by the time 1396 01:13:51,473 --> 01:13:53,433 some years has passed that this practice 1397 01:13:53,475 --> 01:13:57,103 of mutilating, um, little children stops 1398 01:13:57,145 --> 01:13:59,773 and that we're allowed to live who we are, 1399 01:13:59,814 --> 01:14:02,359 unmutilated, and-and we make the decisions about 1400 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:03,985 how that's going to be. 1401 01:14:08,365 --> 01:14:10,658 * * 1402 01:14:27,092 --> 01:14:29,094 * * 1403 01:14:38,728 --> 01:14:40,605 ALICIA: You know, I've been out here shouting 1404 01:14:40,647 --> 01:14:44,109 for years, but I'm seeing a lot of stuff picking up. 1405 01:14:52,367 --> 01:14:56,413 My goals here are to try to pass a bill 1406 01:14:56,454 --> 01:14:59,374 to condemn these surgeries as a city, 1407 01:14:59,416 --> 01:15:03,837 and then also to somehow, you know, mandate 1408 01:15:03,878 --> 01:15:06,840 that Austin Public Health puts together 1409 01:15:06,881 --> 01:15:09,718 a public awareness campaign for parents and doctors. 1410 01:15:09,759 --> 01:15:11,052 There are certain topics 1411 01:15:11,094 --> 01:15:13,054 that people don't really fight about. 1412 01:15:13,096 --> 01:15:15,807 -Totally. Yeah. -You know, it's like, this just is. 1413 01:15:15,849 --> 01:15:19,102 -Yeah. -And I wonder if this might be a "just is." 1414 01:15:19,144 --> 01:15:21,062 There's no confusion. 1415 01:15:21,104 --> 01:15:23,857 I am nervous that if the state catches wind of it, 1416 01:15:23,898 --> 01:15:25,942 that they might try to preempt it. 1417 01:15:25,984 --> 01:15:29,195 What happens is they have legislation 1418 01:15:29,237 --> 01:15:30,780 that targets trans children. 1419 01:15:30,822 --> 01:15:35,076 The bills say, "Don't allow these surgeries 1420 01:15:35,118 --> 01:15:37,662 and hormones, et cetera, et cetera, for trans kids--" 1421 01:15:37,704 --> 01:15:39,205 Which, by the way, these surgeries 1422 01:15:39,247 --> 01:15:40,707 never happen on trans kids. 1423 01:15:40,749 --> 01:15:42,834 They always happen later in life for trans people. 1424 01:15:42,876 --> 01:15:45,045 And then they all have, like, appendices that say, 1425 01:15:45,086 --> 01:15:47,714 "But when children are born intersex, 1426 01:15:47,756 --> 01:15:49,591 "then you can still provide 1427 01:15:49,632 --> 01:15:51,843 these hormones and these surgeries." 1428 01:15:51,885 --> 01:15:54,220 They don't view trans kids as normal, so they say, 1429 01:15:54,262 --> 01:15:57,015 "Don't give them these lifesaving procedures." 1430 01:15:57,057 --> 01:15:59,726 They don't view intersex kids as normal, so they say, 1431 01:15:59,768 --> 01:16:01,895 "Force those same procedures on them." 1432 01:16:01,936 --> 01:16:04,564 How bizarre and absurd is it? 1433 01:16:04,606 --> 01:16:06,733 -Yeah. -I know. 1434 01:16:10,236 --> 01:16:12,238 (line ringing) 1435 01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:13,531 ALICIA: Hi. It's Alicia, 1436 01:16:13,573 --> 01:16:14,574 part of the intersex rally tomorrow. 1437 01:16:14,616 --> 01:16:16,117 How are you? 1438 01:16:16,159 --> 01:16:18,244 PERSON (over phone): I'm good, Alicia. How are you? 1439 01:16:18,286 --> 01:16:21,247 I'm good. I'm just making that last-minute round of calls. 1440 01:16:21,289 --> 01:16:25,585 It's like, we-we're doing good work in Texas, 1441 01:16:25,627 --> 01:16:27,837 but we also have work to do in New York City. 1442 01:16:27,879 --> 01:16:30,256 New York Public Health and Hospitals 1443 01:16:30,298 --> 01:16:32,759 has now basically halted 1444 01:16:32,801 --> 01:16:36,179 all nonconsensual and medically unnecessary surgeries 1445 01:16:36,221 --> 01:16:37,597 on intersex children. 1446 01:16:37,639 --> 01:16:40,600 But these surgeries, they're often happening 1447 01:16:40,642 --> 01:16:42,435 at private university hospitals... 1448 01:16:42,477 --> 01:16:45,855 -Right. -...one of which is-is Weill Cornell here in town. 1449 01:16:45,897 --> 01:16:49,984 And Weill Cornell happens to house Dr. Dix Poppas. 1450 01:16:51,111 --> 01:16:54,406 DALKE: Dr. Poppas does clitoral surgeries for children 1451 01:16:54,447 --> 01:16:56,116 with congenital adrenal hyperplasia. 1452 01:16:56,157 --> 01:16:59,285 They might have a clitoris that becomes-- 1453 01:16:59,327 --> 01:17:02,789 can sometimes grow so much that it looks like a penis. 1454 01:17:02,831 --> 01:17:07,794 Um, or might just be a little bit bigger than usual. 1455 01:17:07,836 --> 01:17:10,797 The goal is just to make the clitoris just look more normal, 1456 01:17:10,839 --> 01:17:13,633 within a very binary and narrow definition 1457 01:17:13,675 --> 01:17:15,343 of what it means to be normal. 1458 01:17:26,146 --> 01:17:28,481 It is not at all medically necessary. 1459 01:17:28,523 --> 01:17:31,901 There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that having 1460 01:17:31,943 --> 01:17:35,780 a bigger clitoris is harmful to someone's physical health. 1461 01:17:50,045 --> 01:17:51,671 ALICIA: Protests have been happening 1462 01:17:51,713 --> 01:17:53,340 about Dix Poppas specifically for years, 1463 01:17:53,381 --> 01:17:56,217 and yet things feel really different now. 1464 01:18:02,015 --> 01:18:04,434 -Okay, here comes River. -Yeah. 1465 01:18:06,436 --> 01:18:07,812 Um, can I have a marker? 1466 01:18:07,854 --> 01:18:09,189 SCOUT SILVERSTEIN: Yeah, where are they? 1467 01:18:09,230 --> 01:18:10,899 ALICIA: We have black markers, purple markers. 1468 01:18:10,940 --> 01:18:13,485 Do you have an idea for a sign? I'm struggling. 1469 01:18:13,526 --> 01:18:15,028 RIVER: So here's some. 1470 01:18:15,070 --> 01:18:17,697 "Unless I say, scalpels away." 1471 01:18:17,739 --> 01:18:19,032 -Yeah. -Ooh. 1472 01:18:19,074 --> 01:18:20,575 I love that one. I really like that one. 1473 01:18:20,617 --> 01:18:22,535 Do that, like, do that, do that next. 1474 01:18:22,577 --> 01:18:24,704 This is the one they made for me. 1475 01:18:24,746 --> 01:18:26,873 -"No testes, still my best me." -(laughter) 1476 01:18:26,915 --> 01:18:29,459 -Aw. Yeah, I like that, too. -I really dig that one. 1477 01:18:29,501 --> 01:18:31,002 Oh, this is good. 1478 01:18:31,044 --> 01:18:34,714 "To each their 'testoster-own.'" 1479 01:18:34,756 --> 01:18:37,759 -SCOUT: Oh, yeah, that's a good one. -(laughter) 1480 01:18:37,801 --> 01:18:39,219 RIVER: Oh, that's great. 1481 01:18:39,260 --> 01:18:40,929 I'm gonna do "Intersexual healing," y'all. 1482 01:18:40,970 --> 01:18:43,223 -I love that. -SCOUT: When you get that feeling. 1483 01:18:43,264 --> 01:18:45,475 (laughter) 1484 01:18:45,517 --> 01:18:46,601 That's a good one. 1485 01:18:46,643 --> 01:18:48,895 (overlapping chatter) 1486 01:18:48,937 --> 01:18:51,147 RIVER: Are you just coming up with these ideas? Wait. 1487 01:18:51,189 --> 01:18:52,816 ALICIA: I, like, thought about this for a few weeks. 1488 01:18:52,857 --> 01:18:54,442 CASEY OROZCO-POORE: I love that. 1489 01:18:54,484 --> 01:18:57,153 -RIVER: What are you doing? -ALICIA: What about the XY? 1490 01:19:02,784 --> 01:19:04,661 RIVER: Ooh. 1491 01:19:04,703 --> 01:19:08,164 I guess, I just wish that the people... 1492 01:19:08,206 --> 01:19:10,875 Anybody tomorrow, you know, going about their day, 1493 01:19:10,917 --> 01:19:13,086 has no idea what "intersex" means, 1494 01:19:13,128 --> 01:19:17,090 that they are provoked to-to research more about this 1495 01:19:17,132 --> 01:19:19,050 and to learn a little bit more. 1496 01:19:19,092 --> 01:19:20,885 SCOUT: I think we're at the cusp of something cool 1497 01:19:20,927 --> 01:19:23,263 with the New York City legislation. 1498 01:19:23,304 --> 01:19:25,265 That, like, that's the first legislation 1499 01:19:25,306 --> 01:19:27,767 that has required explicit action 1500 01:19:27,809 --> 01:19:29,894 to protect intersex people's bodily autonomy 1501 01:19:29,936 --> 01:19:31,938 in the United States. 1502 01:19:31,980 --> 01:19:34,858 I think there's a lot of opportunities for doctors 1503 01:19:34,899 --> 01:19:36,651 to develop into individuals 1504 01:19:36,693 --> 01:19:38,361 who could ally with the intersex community 1505 01:19:38,403 --> 01:19:42,282 and give medically necessary care without harming them. 1506 01:19:42,323 --> 01:19:45,243 This needs to be as common of an issue 1507 01:19:45,285 --> 01:19:48,204 included in the progressive, like, spectrum as trans people, 1508 01:19:48,246 --> 01:19:49,914 -as protecting trans youth... -RIVER: Yeah. 1509 01:19:49,956 --> 01:19:53,126 ...as any-- like, climate change. 1510 01:19:53,168 --> 01:19:54,502 SCOUT: I'm optimistic. 1511 01:19:54,544 --> 01:19:56,796 I just feel like it's a long game. 1512 01:19:56,838 --> 01:19:58,590 It's a long-ass game. 1513 01:19:58,631 --> 01:20:00,842 And we are fighting for it. 1514 01:20:00,884 --> 01:20:02,469 Because what's the other option? 1515 01:20:02,510 --> 01:20:04,179 There is no other option. 1516 01:20:04,220 --> 01:20:07,849 * If the sky that we look upon * 1517 01:20:10,018 --> 01:20:12,896 * Should tumble and fall * 1518 01:20:12,937 --> 01:20:17,609 * Or the mountains should crumble * 1519 01:20:17,650 --> 01:20:19,903 * To the sea... * 1520 01:20:19,944 --> 01:20:21,154 ALICIA: Hey, everyone. 1521 01:20:21,196 --> 01:20:23,323 I'm here at St. Catherine's Park. 1522 01:20:23,365 --> 01:20:26,618 We are right by the 68th Street entrance. 1523 01:20:26,659 --> 01:20:27,911 We're all ready to go. 1524 01:20:27,952 --> 01:20:29,371 If you have any questions, find someone 1525 01:20:29,412 --> 01:20:31,206 with an "End Intersex Surgery" shirt like me. 1526 01:20:31,247 --> 01:20:34,876 Let's get this started, and we'll see you soon. 1527 01:20:34,918 --> 01:20:36,044 -(lively chatter) -That would be really impressive. 1528 01:20:36,086 --> 01:20:37,629 Hi, friend. Come on in. 1529 01:20:39,255 --> 01:20:42,842 * Oh, darlin', darlin', stand... * 1530 01:20:42,884 --> 01:20:45,512 ALICIA: We are going to be marching together 1531 01:20:45,553 --> 01:20:46,513 to Weill Cornell. 1532 01:20:46,554 --> 01:20:47,889 Let's get this happening! 1533 01:20:47,931 --> 01:20:50,809 -What do we want? -GROUP: Body autonomy. 1534 01:20:50,850 --> 01:20:53,186 -When do we want it? -GROUP: Now. 1535 01:20:53,228 --> 01:20:55,021 SAIFA: These little fires, 1536 01:20:55,063 --> 01:20:56,940 these are the things that need to happen 1537 01:20:56,981 --> 01:20:58,983 in order to, sort of, start building, like, 1538 01:20:59,025 --> 01:21:02,028 this larger movement for bodily autonomy. 1539 01:21:02,070 --> 01:21:04,739 GROUP (chanting): Intersex surgery has got to go. 1540 01:21:04,781 --> 01:21:07,033 Hey, hey. Ho, ho. 1541 01:21:07,075 --> 01:21:08,702 ALICIA: We are starting to be heard 1542 01:21:08,743 --> 01:21:13,164 by politicians and the media in little, baby footsteps 1543 01:21:13,206 --> 01:21:14,749 that are actually momentous footsteps 1544 01:21:14,791 --> 01:21:17,460 when you look at how far we've come. 1545 01:21:17,502 --> 01:21:19,462 BRITT MORENO: The Austin City Council approved a resolution 1546 01:21:19,504 --> 01:21:23,675 condemning nonconsensual and medically unnecessary surgeries 1547 01:21:23,717 --> 01:21:25,385 on intersex children. 1548 01:21:25,427 --> 01:21:27,387 ALICIA: Thank you, Mayor, council members. 1549 01:21:27,429 --> 01:21:29,264 Thank you for all of you who have agreed 1550 01:21:29,305 --> 01:21:32,267 to support item 28 on the agenda, 1551 01:21:32,308 --> 01:21:34,728 ensuring that intersex people like me 1552 01:21:34,769 --> 01:21:37,063 can live and thrive as we deserve. 1553 01:21:37,105 --> 01:21:40,567 I do feel like a sea change is happening. 1554 01:21:40,608 --> 01:21:42,068 (applause) 1555 01:21:42,110 --> 01:21:45,822 I have a confession to make right off the bat. 1556 01:21:45,864 --> 01:21:48,283 I am intersex. 1557 01:21:48,324 --> 01:21:50,076 And I'm not gonna lie about it or deny it. 1558 01:21:50,118 --> 01:21:52,078 I kind of gained confidence... 1559 01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:55,081 ...in proclaiming that we are intersex, not invisible. 1560 01:21:55,123 --> 01:21:58,251 ...that I am intersex, that I have XY chromosomes. 1561 01:21:58,293 --> 01:22:00,837 Nobody knew that I was intersex. 1562 01:22:00,879 --> 01:22:02,339 I kept it very private. 1563 01:22:02,380 --> 01:22:05,425 So we're still here, and we're still gonna kick ass 1564 01:22:05,467 --> 01:22:07,260 and be powerful intersex activists. 1565 01:22:07,302 --> 01:22:09,137 (overlapping chatter) 1566 01:22:09,179 --> 01:22:12,432 We have a duty to fight, and we have a duty to win! 1567 01:22:12,474 --> 01:22:14,893 (chanting): End intersex surgery! 1568 01:22:14,934 --> 01:22:17,896 End intersex surgery! 1569 01:22:17,937 --> 01:22:20,482 (fading): End intersex surgery! 1570 01:22:20,523 --> 01:22:24,944 * Oh, stand by me * 1571 01:22:24,986 --> 01:22:28,281 * Oh, stand * 1572 01:22:28,323 --> 01:22:33,328 * Stand by me, stand by me * 1573 01:22:34,954 --> 01:22:36,664 -* Stand * -(whoops) 1574 01:22:38,708 --> 01:22:41,628 * By me. * 1575 01:22:52,389 --> 01:22:53,848 -(crowd cheers) -Thank you. 1576 01:22:53,890 --> 01:22:55,975 Thank you so much, everybody. 1577 01:22:56,017 --> 01:22:58,978 -I'm pissed the fuck off. -(crowd cheers) 1578 01:22:59,020 --> 01:23:02,440 I'm pissed the fuck off that we have to be here. 1579 01:23:03,191 --> 01:23:05,860 I was born without testicles. 1580 01:23:05,902 --> 01:23:08,113 The surgery that I had at 16 years old 1581 01:23:08,154 --> 01:23:10,824 was a complete violation of my human rights, 1582 01:23:10,865 --> 01:23:12,867 and now I live with it every day, 1583 01:23:12,909 --> 01:23:14,744 a reminder in between my groin 1584 01:23:14,786 --> 01:23:16,830 that I have prosthetic testicles 1585 01:23:16,871 --> 01:23:19,499 that were not decided by me. 1586 01:23:19,541 --> 01:23:22,293 -And that's fucked up! -That's fucked up! 1587 01:23:22,335 --> 01:23:24,170 -It's fucked up. -(crowd murmurs in agreement) 1588 01:23:26,381 --> 01:23:28,383 I've had suicidal ideation. 1589 01:23:28,425 --> 01:23:31,011 I've had problems with-with drugs and alcohol, 1590 01:23:31,052 --> 01:23:33,388 and it's all because of the shame and the trauma 1591 01:23:33,430 --> 01:23:36,349 that I experienced because I'm intersex. 1592 01:23:36,391 --> 01:23:38,852 We are amongst an intersex revolution, 1593 01:23:38,893 --> 01:23:42,856 led first and foremost by our trans siblings and family. 1594 01:23:42,897 --> 01:23:45,066 They have paved the way so now we have the strength 1595 01:23:45,108 --> 01:23:47,902 to stand in our courage and our bravery. 1596 01:23:47,944 --> 01:23:49,863 (crowd cheering) 1597 01:23:49,904 --> 01:23:51,823 We need all institutions everywhere, 1598 01:23:51,865 --> 01:23:53,283 not just in New York City, 1599 01:23:53,324 --> 01:23:56,453 in all, in all hospitals in the United States 1600 01:23:56,494 --> 01:23:59,164 and around the world, to end these surgeries. 1601 01:23:59,205 --> 01:24:01,708 (chanting): Unless I say, scalpels away. 1602 01:24:01,750 --> 01:24:04,210 (crowd joins in): Unless I say, scalpels away. 1603 01:24:04,252 --> 01:24:09,716 Unless I say, scalpels away. Unless I say, scalpels away. 1604 01:24:09,758 --> 01:24:12,552 Unless I say, scalpels away. 1605 01:24:13,762 --> 01:24:16,514 COHEN: D-Do you see that you're beautiful? 1606 01:24:18,391 --> 01:24:20,435 RIVER: It's so funny because sometimes, 1607 01:24:20,477 --> 01:24:24,314 honestly, I won't know what I look like. 1608 01:24:25,357 --> 01:24:27,734 And then I look at myself in the mirror. 1609 01:24:27,776 --> 01:24:30,195 I'm like, "Oh, my God. I'm stunning." 1610 01:24:33,323 --> 01:24:34,616 Since coming out as intersex, 1611 01:24:34,657 --> 01:24:36,701 I definitely feel more beautiful. 1612 01:24:36,743 --> 01:24:39,829 And I don't mean that just, like, oh, like... 1613 01:24:39,871 --> 01:24:41,331 like, I got hot. 1614 01:24:41,373 --> 01:24:44,459 But it was more like I got the confidence 1615 01:24:44,501 --> 01:24:48,421 to just start showing up however I-I'd want to show up. 1616 01:24:48,463 --> 01:24:52,509 Wow, I did it. 1617 01:24:53,510 --> 01:24:55,804 That is exciting. 1618 01:24:56,805 --> 01:24:58,682 Drama for the gala. 1619 01:24:58,723 --> 01:25:00,934 ("You Can't Judge a Book by the Cover" by Elise LeGrow playing) 1620 01:25:00,975 --> 01:25:04,521 * You can't judge an apple by looking at a tree * 1621 01:25:04,562 --> 01:25:08,525 * You can't judge honey by looking at the bee... * 1622 01:25:08,566 --> 01:25:11,778 I think the curse of being a filmmaker 1623 01:25:11,820 --> 01:25:15,949 is that now I'm super conscious of good light. 1624 01:25:15,990 --> 01:25:17,951 This is good light, honestly. 1625 01:25:17,992 --> 01:25:19,619 Thank you. (chuckles) 1626 01:25:21,204 --> 01:25:24,749 * No, you misjudge me * 1627 01:25:26,251 --> 01:25:27,627 * I look like a fighter * 1628 01:25:27,669 --> 01:25:29,963 -(shouts) -* But I'm a lover * 1629 01:25:30,005 --> 01:25:34,968 * Can't judge a book by looking at the cover, no, no... * 1630 01:25:35,010 --> 01:25:36,803 ALICIA: When you're intersex, 1631 01:25:36,845 --> 01:25:40,807 you're so defined by doctors and parents 1632 01:25:40,849 --> 01:25:44,144 and society's idea of who you should be, 1633 01:25:44,185 --> 01:25:46,938 you don't really learn till later in life 1634 01:25:46,980 --> 01:25:49,190 who you actually are. 1635 01:25:50,316 --> 01:25:53,111 SAIFA: I'm very up-front about who I am. 1636 01:25:53,153 --> 01:25:55,488 Some people are into it, some people are not. 1637 01:25:55,530 --> 01:25:58,199 But the people who are into it are into it. 1638 01:25:58,241 --> 01:26:01,036 Dating and romance, not a problem. 1639 01:26:01,077 --> 01:26:02,120 Not at all. 1640 01:26:02,162 --> 01:26:04,205 (laughing) 1641 01:26:05,623 --> 01:26:08,543 * I said you can't catch me * 1642 01:26:10,545 --> 01:26:12,005 * I look like a fighter * 1643 01:26:12,047 --> 01:26:14,841 * But I'm a lover * 1644 01:26:14,883 --> 01:26:16,343 * Can't judge a book * 1645 01:26:16,384 --> 01:26:19,137 -* By looking at the cover * -(laughing) 1646 01:26:19,179 --> 01:26:20,930 * No, can't catch me * 1647 01:26:22,223 --> 01:26:25,894 * I said you can't catch me... * 1648 01:26:26,895 --> 01:26:29,856 (chuckling): What? Is that okay? Is it okay? 1649 01:26:29,898 --> 01:26:31,983 * But I'm a lover * 1650 01:26:32,025 --> 01:26:33,443 * Can't judge a book * 1651 01:26:33,485 --> 01:26:37,238 -* By looking at the cover. * -(song ends) 1652 01:26:39,407 --> 01:26:42,118 MORRISON: All those thousands of operations you referred to, 1653 01:26:42,160 --> 01:26:43,620 the vast majority of them 1654 01:26:43,661 --> 01:26:45,705 were with people called intersexuals, as you know. 1655 01:26:45,747 --> 01:26:48,291 And you, yes, were the great guinea pig 1656 01:26:48,333 --> 01:26:51,044 for, uh, that kind of surgery, 1657 01:26:51,086 --> 01:26:53,380 and your case was probably misunderstood. 1658 01:26:53,421 --> 01:26:57,926 So, how do you think those thousands of people feel? 1659 01:26:57,967 --> 01:27:01,721 I think that they would like to be given the chance 1660 01:27:01,763 --> 01:27:03,390 and the opportunity to 1661 01:27:03,431 --> 01:27:06,559 be able to become who they want to become. 1662 01:27:06,601 --> 01:27:09,229 I figure they should wait until they're-- they know. 1663 01:27:09,270 --> 01:27:12,732 I mean, to me, if you wait just a few extra years, 1664 01:27:12,774 --> 01:27:14,984 you could save yourself a lifetime of pain 1665 01:27:15,026 --> 01:27:16,236 by doing it like that. 1666 01:27:16,277 --> 01:27:18,697 -By just waiting. -By just waiting. 1667 01:27:18,738 --> 01:27:21,574 I'm really looking forward to the day when a child is born, 1668 01:27:21,616 --> 01:27:24,619 instead of, "It's a boy," or, "It's a girl," 1669 01:27:24,661 --> 01:27:27,414 people put a-- I don't know-- 1670 01:27:27,455 --> 01:27:29,874 yellow sign on the front lawn that says, "It's a baby." 1671 01:27:29,916 --> 01:27:34,754 Um, I want anyone hearing this, watching this, 1672 01:27:34,796 --> 01:27:37,632 um, to know that we are ten people 1673 01:27:37,674 --> 01:27:40,135 gathered together in Northern California, 1674 01:27:40,176 --> 01:27:42,220 but it's just, it's just the beginning, 1675 01:27:42,262 --> 01:27:44,848 and I can just feel how this is going to grow. 1676 01:27:44,889 --> 01:27:47,767 And, uh, and-and we're gonna change, um, 1677 01:27:47,809 --> 01:27:50,478 the way that we're, the way that we're treated. 1678 01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:52,439 For liberation for lesbian, gay, 1679 01:27:52,480 --> 01:27:56,568 bisexual, transgender, queer and intersex individuals. 1680 01:27:56,609 --> 01:27:59,320 -That's what I'm about to sign. -(applause) 1681 01:28:16,921 --> 01:28:19,507 * * 1682 01:28:23,970 --> 01:28:26,389 I really do think before we die, 1683 01:28:26,431 --> 01:28:28,808 there's gonna be a huge revolution, 1684 01:28:28,850 --> 01:28:31,978 because it's already starting right now. 1685 01:28:32,687 --> 01:28:34,314 COHEN: This is beautiful. 1686 01:28:34,356 --> 01:28:35,982 But there's one other thing we want to film. 1687 01:28:36,024 --> 01:28:38,443 Wait. We're not doing the little frolicking? 1688 01:28:38,485 --> 01:28:39,819 You are doing a little frolicking. 1689 01:28:39,861 --> 01:28:41,905 That's what we're about to do right now. 1690 01:28:41,946 --> 01:28:44,824 -("Good as Hell" playing) -* I do my hair toss * 1691 01:28:44,866 --> 01:28:45,992 * Check my nails * 1692 01:28:46,034 --> 01:28:48,495 * Baby, how you feelin'? * 1693 01:28:48,536 --> 01:28:50,663 * Hair toss, check my nails * 1694 01:28:50,705 --> 01:28:53,333 * Baby, how you feelin'? * 1695 01:28:53,375 --> 01:28:55,752 * Whoo, child, tired of the foolish * 1696 01:28:55,794 --> 01:28:58,338 * Go on, dust your shoulders off, keep it moving * 1697 01:28:58,380 --> 01:29:00,799 * Yes, Lord, step into some new kicks * 1698 01:29:00,840 --> 01:29:03,510 * In there, swimwear, going to the pool quick * 1699 01:29:03,551 --> 01:29:05,345 * Come now and dry your eyes * 1700 01:29:05,387 --> 01:29:07,806 * I know you're a star, you can touch the sky * 1701 01:29:07,847 --> 01:29:10,475 * I know that it's hard, but you have to try * 1702 01:29:10,517 --> 01:29:13,353 * If you need advice, let me simplify * 1703 01:29:13,395 --> 01:29:18,358 * He don't love you anymore * 1704 01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:22,570 * Walk your fine self out the door * 1705 01:29:22,612 --> 01:29:25,573 * I do my hair toss, check my nails * 1706 01:29:25,615 --> 01:29:28,368 * I said, baby, how you feelin'? * 1707 01:29:28,410 --> 01:29:30,453 * Hair toss, check my nails * 1708 01:29:30,495 --> 01:29:33,081 * I said, baby, how you feelin'? * 1709 01:29:33,123 --> 01:29:34,749 * Whoo! * 1710 01:29:37,961 --> 01:29:40,922 * Whoo, girl, go on, kick off your shoes * 1711 01:29:40,964 --> 01:29:42,966 * Ya gotta take a deep breath, time to focus on you * 1712 01:29:43,008 --> 01:29:45,552 * All the big fights, long nights that you been through * 1713 01:29:45,593 --> 01:29:48,555 * I got a bottle of tequila I been saving for you * 1714 01:29:48,596 --> 01:29:50,265 * Boss up and change your life * 1715 01:29:50,306 --> 01:29:52,684 * Go and let it all hang out tonight * 1716 01:29:52,726 --> 01:29:54,936 * I know she treat me wrong, but we'll make it right * 1717 01:29:54,978 --> 01:29:58,356 * So go and let it all hang out tonight * 1718 01:29:58,398 --> 01:30:03,236 * They don't love you anymore * 1719 01:30:03,278 --> 01:30:09,159 * So walk your fine self out the door... * 1720 01:30:09,200 --> 01:30:11,619 (vocalizing) 1721 01:30:11,661 --> 01:30:14,831 * Check my nails, I said, baby, how you feelin'? * 1722 01:30:14,873 --> 01:30:17,792 * Hair toss, check my nails * 1723 01:30:17,834 --> 01:30:20,712 * I said, baby, how you feelin'? * 1724 01:30:20,754 --> 01:30:22,505 * Whoo! * 1725 01:30:24,466 --> 01:30:28,386 * I do my hair toss, check my nails * 1726 01:30:28,428 --> 01:30:30,430 * Baby, how you feelin'? * 1727 01:30:30,472 --> 01:30:32,599 * Hair toss, check my nails * 1728 01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:35,268 * Baby, how you feelin'? * 1729 01:30:35,310 --> 01:30:36,353 * Whoo! * 1730 01:30:36,394 --> 01:30:38,438 * Feelin' good as hell * 1731 01:30:38,480 --> 01:30:41,107 * Baby, how you feelin'? Good as hell. * 1732 01:30:41,149 --> 01:30:43,234 -(song ends) -(laughter) 1733 01:30:44,694 --> 01:30:46,446 RIVER: You didn't see that coming. 1734 01:30:46,488 --> 01:30:48,782 -(laughter) -COHEN: You guys got me. 1735 01:30:48,823 --> 01:30:50,867 * * 1736 01:31:20,146 --> 01:31:22,232 * * 1737 01:31:52,262 --> 01:31:54,264 * * 1738 01:32:02,230 --> 01:32:04,274 (music ends)