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Downloaded from
YTS.MX
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
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From 1968 to 2010,
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the terrorist organization ETA murdered
852 people and wounded 2,661 others.
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Source: Spanish Ministry of the Interior
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ETA was founded in 1959,
during Francisco Franco's dictatorship,
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to fight for the independence
of the Basque Country.
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Following Franco's death in 1975,
ETA became increasingly violent.
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The organization committed
more than 90% of its murders
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after the transition to democracy.
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The Spanish state as well as far-right
and parapolice groups waged
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an illicit war against ETA
in which 73 people were killed.
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Source: Basque government
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Francisco Ruiz and Josu Urrutikoetxea
do not know each other
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and have only crossed paths once.
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This is part of their story.
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I moved to Euskadi
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since I was…
a child of the post-war period.
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I moved there when I was three years old.
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At 17, I qualified as a plumber.
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And I lived there until I turned 28 or 29,
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when I moved to Ciudad Real.
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I lived there a long time.
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I got married there.
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My four daughters were born there.
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And, to be perfectly honest…
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I mean, I've always loved Euskadi.
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And, well,
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I remember that region fondly.
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When I got out of the military,
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three spots opened up
for local police officers
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where I lived, in Galdakao.
There was a civil service entrance exam.
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And it's not like I wanted to be a cop or…
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It had never crossed my mind before.
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But the fact is I thought
I needed to put bread on the table
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because, at the time, I had four daughters
and we needed the money.
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Francisco, what happened
on February 9th, 1976?
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On that day in '76,
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I was on duty. I got to work at 6:00 a.m.
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Apart from our regular responsibilities
as local police officers,
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we would protect the mayor.
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He always left his house
at 8:00 a.m. sharp.
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I was with him that day.
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Because of seniority, it was my turn
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to wait for the mayor at his front door.
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He'd then walk to his car,
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which was about 550 yards away.
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And, of course,
he left at the same time every day
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and always walked
on the same side of the street.
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Well, we were about 20 yards
from his front door
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when we ran into an ETA cell.
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They came at us
with handguns and machine guns,
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and they opened fire on us.
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I think the mayor was shot
five or six times.
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He died instantly, right then and there.
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I was shot multiple times in the chest…
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and in the stomach.
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But I was able to react quickly
and dove between two cars.
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And, well, that saved my life.
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When the terrorists started to run,
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they fired at me
with the machine gun again.
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They hit me
six more times below the waist.
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But…
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That didn't kill me.
That, right there, didn't kill me.
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I didn't lose consciousness.
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Since I was Catholic at the time, I…
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I was non-practicing but Catholic
nonetheless. I prayed to the Virgin Mary…
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asking her to keep me alive…
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so I could raise my daughters.
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That's when I lost consciousness.
Later, they told me…
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It was terrifying
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because no one came to rescue us
the whole time we were there.
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And we were on
the main street in town, by the way.
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It was 8:00 a.m.,
when everybody was going to work.
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They called my wife later, and she…
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She assumed the worst.
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She was speechless.
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When they told her, she was speechless.
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A police car went and picked her up
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and brought her to the hospital.
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I was already in the operating room.
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The first thing they told her was
that my chances were very slim
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due to all my bullet wounds.
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But I think my prayer… was answered.
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She helped me out up there.
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And we spent
the next five months in there, Jordi.
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Five months.
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Five months in the hospital.
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When I was discharged,
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I left, but I was in a wheelchair.
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And the first time
I was out around town, I noticed
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how people shunned me, Jordi.
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They steered clear of me.
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People that knew me would cross
to the other side of the street.
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By that time, people were already afraid,
terrified, in the Basque Country.
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Abertzales, nationalists, were afraid of
being seen talking to terrorism victims.
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And that was truly devastating.
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It hurt as much as the attack.
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When I saw how I was rejected
by the society I had known
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since I was three or six years old,
when I moved to Galdakao…
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I lived in that town. Everybody knew me.
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I was ostracized since I was a victim…
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That was really hard for me.
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When my wife would go
to the supermarket or butcher shop,
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the butcher wouldn't pull any punches.
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Even if the shop was full, he'd say,
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"They should've killed
that fascist years ago."
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"And fuck that local cop
for protecting him."
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My wife would come home
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with tears in her eyes.
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So I had to make a decision.
I spoke to my family,
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and we decided
to leave the Basque Country.
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Like… I don't know.
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Like lepers.
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We had to leave.
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Did you ever feel hatred
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towards the people
that attacked you and the mayor?
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Did I ever feel hatred towards them?
Of course, I did.
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At the time,
it was equal parts hatred and fear.
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There was never
any closure surrounding the attack.
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It was impossible to identify
multiple ETA terrorists who attacked you,
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and others were granted amnesty in 1977.
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We filmed a documentary
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based on a conversation, an interview
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with Josu Urrutikoetxea,
historically a member of ETA.
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Perhaps you've…
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Yes, Josu Ternera.
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We were surprised to hear
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that he had new information
about the day you were attacked.
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And…
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at the very least,
you should know that happened.
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Wow, this is the first time I've heard
anything about it from an ETA terrorist.
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Perhaps you'd like to see the footage.
If you don't want to…
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Of course, I want to.
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A lot of time has passed,
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and I'd like to learn something new
about the day I was attacked.
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Well, I'd be happy to show you.
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Okay.
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I know you don't like
being called "Ternera."
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But I've spoken to people
who know you well,
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former comrades, former ETA members.
That's what they call you.
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What's the story behind it?
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We were bar hopping in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
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At one of our stops,
someone, who will remain nameless, said,
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"Jeez, you're acting like
a ternera, a calf."
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So what happened next?
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Well, not long after that,
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one of the people
that was there was arrested
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by the police
in the Southern Basque Country.
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That person was tortured
and told the police,
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"Yeah, at that bar on that day
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I was with this person,
that person, and the other guy."
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"And some guy
they call 'Ternera' was there." That's it.
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"This guy?" They showed him a photo.
He said, "Yup, him."
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And from that point forward, in the…
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in the international arrest warrants,
that… nickname appeared.
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- Josu Ternera.
- Yes.
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- Josu Ternera…
- Josu Ternera…
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Admiral Carrero Blanco, prime minister
of Spain, has been assassinated.
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He was attacked by terrorists.
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ETA'S MILITARY ARM RESTRUCTURES
AND MAKES URRUTIKOETXEA NUMBER TWO
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"JOSU TERNERA" NOW TOP ETA LEADER,
DIRECTLY CONTROLS MILITARY
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ETA'S MOST POWERFUL LEADER EVER
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José Antonio Urrutikoetxea
has been arrested.
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José Antonio Urrutikoetxea,
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alias Josu Ternera, is considered to be
ETA's number one.
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NO EXTRADITIONS
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FREE JOSU!
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Today, French authorities handed over
Josu Ternera, a top member of ETA,
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to Spanish police.
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He is suspected
of leading ETA's international arm.
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You sons of bitches!
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Murderers!
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Enough is enough!
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Josu Ternera was released
from prison today.
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Long live ETA's military arm!
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Obtaining a legislative seat
is always better
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than obtaining a handgun and using it.
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That's always better.
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As painful as it is,
I think he has the right to do it.
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Josu Ternera, tell your former comrades
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to let us, the people,
enact our own revolution,
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our own changes at the polls.
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The Batasuna member of Parliament
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and ETA's former number one,
Josu Ternera, is at large.
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We do not know the whereabouts
of Mr. Urrutikoetxea.
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I have no information and no clue
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if we'll learn where he is.
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The Government will begin talks with ETA.
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What was Josu Ternera's advantage?
He knew the importance of Parliament.
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ETA has decided to permanently disarm.
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It's the end of the road
according to a key figure, Josu Ternera.
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"ETA was born from the people,
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and now it dissolves
back into the people."
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These are the first images of Josu Ternera
in custody after 17 years on the run.
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Josu Ternera has been arrested.
He was ETA's last top member.
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…congratulate you on arresting
José Antonio Urrutikoetxea Bengoetxea,
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Josu Ternera.
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Today, the Cabinet has requested
that France extradite
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the ETA member Josu Ternera.
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A French judge acquitted
the ETA member Josu Ternera
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of the charge of membership in ETA
between 2011 and 2013.
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He has another trial pending in France
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and will then be extradited to Spain
to stand trial for the attack
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on the Civil Guard barracks in Zaragoza
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and for financing ETA
through pubs run by sympathizers.
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FACE TO FACE WITH ETA:
CONVERSATIONS WITH A TERRORIST
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"I was, am, and will be a member of ETA,
and I'm proud of it."
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- You said that in a trial in Paris.
- Yes.
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I certainly was a member of ETA.
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And are you proud of that?
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I was a member of ETA.
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The historical context
of that statement made in 1990
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was entirely different from
both the context in which I joined ETA
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and the present.
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I do not deny at all
that I made that statement.
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You had a… long career in ETA,
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one of the longest
within the terrorist organization ETA.
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You joined soon after it was founded.
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You were a major figure
in almost all of its key moments.
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You spent 12 years in prison.
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More than 20 years in hiding.
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And you announced the end of ETA in 2018.
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That's a total of almost 50 years.
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Has ETA been your life?
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ETA is part of my life. That's undeniable.
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As you just said.
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I willingly joined ETA
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at the age of 17.
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I'm now over 71 years old.
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Therefore, in one way or another,
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clearly, there is a relationship.
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However, I must clarify
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ETA no longer exists.
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What's your goal here?
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Well, I hope to…
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Up until now,
other people have spoken for me.
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Not only have they spoken.
They've written books.
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And, for different reasons,
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I've had few opportunities
to speak on my behalf.
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We're in France.
I don't know if I can say where we are.
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I don't care, but we're not in France.
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With all due respect,
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you may think, and you clearly do,
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that we're in France. Fine.
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But I don't think we're in France.
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People call it the French Basque Country,
248
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,400
but I consider it Euskal Herria,
therefore the Northern Basque Country.
249
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,000
So, let's continue…
250
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,960
Let's continue this conversation
with that in mind.
251
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,680
- I'll respect… the language you use.
- Okay.
252
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:23,240
I do consider us to be in France.
At least from a legal standpoint, we are.
253
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,280
In Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
254
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:27,840
For many people in Spain,
255
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,840
your name is synonymous with "terrorism"
256
00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,360
as well as "brutality" and "cruelty."
257
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:38,320
Yet, at the same time,
everyone involved in the peace process
258
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,360
that resulted in the end
of the terrorist organization ETA,
259
00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,320
including those on the government side,
260
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,600
see you as having played a key role
in putting an end to that violence.
261
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:52,520
And?
262
00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,000
How do you reconcile
those two facets you have?
263
00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:02,400
I'm not alone in that sense. However,
my situation has been turned into…
264
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:04,880
a trophy.
265
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,080
And that's how they created
a narrative with winners and losers.
266
00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,760
They believe there is only one narrative,
267
00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,360
and my personage is
one of the bad guys in it.
268
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,240
They've taken my personage
269
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,720
and removed all human aspects.
They've dehumanized my personage.
270
00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:27,320
They talk about me like I'm the Devil.
271
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,560
Or they say we're bloodthirsty.
272
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,640
I'm just a regular person.
273
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,160
I've had and maintain strong beliefs.
274
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,960
Political, social, and cultural ones.
275
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,720
I have a family, like everyone else.
276
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,400
It's true that I was a member of ETA.
277
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,920
It's true that I was tried
and convicted of that
278
00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,120
in the French state
but not in the Spanish state.
279
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:58,640
And it's true that the majority
of my career in ETA… was devoted to
280
00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:04,840
paving the way for conflict resolution,
the subsequent end of the conflict,
281
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,240
and moving forward,
moving on via political negotiation.
282
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,920
{\an8}The Government will begin talks with ETA
283
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,680
{\an8}and will not waver in its stance
284
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,720
{\an8}that political matters
shall only be resolved
285
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,320
{\an8}by those who legitimately represent
286
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,280
{\an8}the will
287
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:28,200
of the people.
288
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,120
Let's start at the end. The year is 2005.
289
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:37,360
Zapatero's socialist government initiated
talks to try to end the violence,
290
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,080
and you were in charge of negotiating
on behalf of ETA.
291
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,360
Were you the leader of ETA at the time?
292
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:44,640
Not at all.
293
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,120
My job was strictly confined to…
294
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:55,360
During those years, from 2002 to 2006,
295
00:18:55,440 --> 00:19:01,680
my job was about building relationships
and steering things towards,
296
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,600
trying to steer things towards
a negotiation to end the conflict.
297
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,360
Despite not being ETA's leader,
you negotiated on behalf of ETA.
298
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,000
- Yes.
- Your counterpart was Jesús Eguiguren.
299
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,600
At the time, he was president
of the Socialist Party of Euskadi.
300
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:18,800
Yes, that's right.
301
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:19,880
I was surprised
302
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:26,200
that the personage of Josu Urrutikoetxea,
Josu Ternera, has barely… received
303
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:27,720
any of the credit,
304
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,560
when compared to
other participants in that negotiation.
305
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,040
You actively participated, so it's odd
that you haven't been given more--
306
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:40,320
Please… do not call me…
307
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,280
You want to call me Josu Urrutikoetxea?
Fine. But not Josu Ternera because I…
308
00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:46,360
That's what I've been doing thus far.
309
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,320
I said "Ternera" just now simply because
that's what other people were calling you.
310
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,440
- That won't be the case here.
- No, right…
311
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:55,760
Well, I don't know.
312
00:19:55,840 --> 00:20:02,640
I was not
in pro-independence left structures.
313
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,240
At the time, they must have decided
314
00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,880
what they thought was best
and went with it.
315
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,480
During your negotiations in June 2005,
316
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:15,840
there was an ETA attack,
and there were no victims.
317
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,920
- It was at La Peineta in Madrid.
- Yes.
318
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,800
How did you all feel? What did you say?
319
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:21,920
I found it troubling, obviously.
320
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,120
What do you mean, "I found it troubling?"
321
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,240
Well, that affects you.
322
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:31,200
Well, an operation… If it hadn't happened,
that would've been better.
323
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,760
Because perhaps that would've…
324
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,200
laid better groundwork
for the agreement, or whatever.
325
00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,960
Also, during the first phase
of those negotiations,
326
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:50,760
there was a jihadist attack
on July 7th in London.
327
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:56,240
As a result, more than 50 people died
in the British capital.
328
00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:58,800
What was that like for you?
329
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,520
Well, I thought…
330
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:08,800
that sort of… violent "operation,"
if you could call it that,
331
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,520
that it had no raison d'être.
332
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:12,960
But I won't get into…
333
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,800
I can't fathom
the logic of jihadist organizations.
334
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,960
I don't share their opinion,
335
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:24,680
which is fundamentally based on
336
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:31,120
their idea that any man or woman
that has voted for a given government,
337
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,920
whether it's in Paris or London,
338
00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,040
is an equal participant in
and is equally responsible for
339
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:44,600
what British administrations have done
in Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, or Pakistan.
340
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:48,040
That's their opinion.
I don't agree with it.
341
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,160
But did you see those attacks and think,
"What an absolute calamity"?
342
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,640
I'll repeat what I've already said.
343
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,600
I didn't see the rationale at all.
344
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,000
I couldn't fathom it.
345
00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,680
No matter how much they try to justify,
346
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,360
I'm referring to Islamists,
347
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,640
that any citizen is a target,
348
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,800
I think that is absurd.
349
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,840
But that's what Islamists think.
350
00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:19,600
Allow me to ask a question.
What's the difference between
351
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,400
killing for one's god
and killing for one's homeland?
352
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:26,960
Killing…
353
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:28,920
In my opinion…
354
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,200
I don't think you or anyone else…
355
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,800
has ever heard me say killing is okay.
356
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:39,480
Never.
357
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,360
My family was poor, working-class.
358
00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,560
Both my father and mother came
from farming families.
359
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,160
My family was
what you'd call Roman Catholic.
360
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,040
And from a young age,
basically, I was forced
361
00:23:09,120 --> 00:23:12,200
to do the classic thing, Sunday mass…
362
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,840
They imposed it upon me
because they were religious.
363
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,680
And they believed
families had to be a certain way.
364
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:19,880
And were you a believer?
365
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,960
At that age,
who can say they were a believer?
366
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,520
You were practically forced
to repeat stuff.
367
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,360
I believe in things, just not God.
368
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,000
Human beings have believed in things
since the very beginning.
369
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:35,520
Beliefs are one thing,
and religion is another.
370
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,680
- What do you believe in?
- I believe in my surroundings.
371
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:41,760
In what I see, in nature.
372
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,880
In human beings.
373
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,840
You must've learned the Ten Commandments.
374
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,440
I had to. We had Religion class in school.
375
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,360
Did you break many of the commandments
by being in ETA?
376
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,040
"By being in ETA"?
377
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,000
I don't see the connection.
I'm not religious,
378
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,680
so I'm not breaking rules by being in ETA.
I don't believe in that stuff.
379
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,440
The seventh one is "Thou shalt not steal."
380
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,200
If you hadn't just told me,
I wouldn't have known that.
381
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,560
- So?
- Did you fulfill it or not?
382
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,400
How is that related? I didn't fulfill it.
I obviously didn't fulfill it.
383
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,040
- And the fifth? "Thou shalt not kill"?
- I fulfilled it.
384
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:25,640
How'd you find ETA?
385
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:29,840
ETA…
386
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:36,360
During the historical period
in which it was born, the late '50s,
387
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:41,960
there was the occasional newspaper article
given how the news was back then.
388
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,040
So I learned about it that way
and from conversations at home.
389
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:48,920
Would your family say,
390
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,280
"We heard that so-and-so joined ETA" or…?
391
00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:53,840
Yes, of course.
392
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:55,720
You'd get that news at home.
393
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,120
So I saw that the only way,
394
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:04,280
the only effective way,
395
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:09,680
to take on the system
that was oppressing and suffocating us
396
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,320
was this new thing, ETA.
397
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,800
I was 17 years old
398
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,160
when one of my closest friends said,
399
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,640
"Look, I'm in ETA.
Do you want to join ETA?"
400
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:25,920
And I accepted.
401
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,000
CIVIL GUARD - POLICE CHECKPOINT
402
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,720
CIVIL GUARD TRAFFIC OFFICER SHOT TO DEATH
403
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,960
ONE ASSAILANT WAS KILLED
BY THE CIVIL GUARD
404
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,160
You joined ETA in 1968.
405
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:55,400
Soon after, ETA claimed its first victim,
the Civil Guard officer José Pardines.
406
00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:58,640
At the time, did you think
407
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,360
that killing was crossing the line?
408
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,000
No, because…
409
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,160
A very large part of the Basque people,
Basque men and women, thought
410
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,040
that in order to go up against
the oppressive system,
411
00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:17,400
we had to use all means. So…
412
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:19,920
- Well…
- Including violence.
413
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,480
All types of vio… All means.
414
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,320
It's not like that was just ETA's stance
415
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,680
or just my stance.
Very many people felt that way.
416
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,840
Soon after the death
of the Civil Guard officer Pardines,
417
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,960
the first member of ETA died,
418
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,280
Txabi Etxebarrieta. He had perpetrated
the death of Pardines.
419
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,920
After seeing what happened
to a fellow ETA member,
420
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,840
were you willing to die for your homeland?
421
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,920
When you join ETA,
you know the consequences,
422
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,720
the fact that you may die.
423
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:06,960
For your homeland.
424
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,840
For a set of ideas, of course.
425
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,920
Did you receive military training in ETA?
426
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,600
Yes.
427
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,560
What did it include?
428
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,000
At the time, not much.
429
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,600
Not much because, at the time,
430
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,800
and I'm referring to the same period,
ETA operated on four fronts.
431
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:36,360
They were the political, military,
workers, and cultural fronts.
432
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,960
We didn't need military training
433
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,800
because we weren't in the military front.
434
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,280
But there was minimal training,
435
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,240
which included making Molotov cocktails,
436
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,120
basic explosives training,
437
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,000
and learning how handguns work
and how to use them.
438
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,400
Did you learn how to shoot?
439
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,240
If you could call it that.
440
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,720
Since we were in the cultural front
at the time, learning how to shoot meant
441
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,600
you learned how the handgun worked
and fired one or two shots. That was it.
442
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,440
When did they give you your first gun?
443
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,880
The first gun I touched
wasn't given to me.
444
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,960
When I touched a gun
for the first time, I must've been…
445
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,440
eighteen or nineteen years old.
446
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,480
I was learning how it worked.
447
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,760
Then, I got my first gun in…
448
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,560
It must've been '71.
And they didn't give me my first gun.
449
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,800
I mean, when I…
450
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,720
When I escaped and went into exile
in the Northern Basque Country, Iparralde,
451
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,560
I was in the political front.
452
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,520
And at that time,
453
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,360
the only armed ETA members
were in the military front.
454
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,960
So, I knew the risks
455
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,520
of crossing the border secretly,
illegally, to do my political work,
456
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,680
I repeat, "political work,"
in the Southern Basque Country,
457
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,640
and I bought a handgun from a smuggler.
458
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,320
He was a Basque smuggler.
459
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,640
The handgun was made in Bayonne.
It was a MAB.
460
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,720
- MAP?
- MAB. M-A-B.
461
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,720
Manufacture d'armes de Bayonne.
462
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:54,720
It was a 7.65 millimeter handgun,
and I paid 500 francs for it,
463
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:56,600
out of my own pocket.
464
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,320
Because the organization's weapons
465
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,560
were exclusively reserved for
the members of the military front.
466
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,840
How many times
did you have to use that gun?
467
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,160
- In my life?
- Yes.
468
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,000
Well, a few times.
469
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,320
But when I used it,
470
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,280
it was in self-defense.
471
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,760
Did you ever join a cell?
472
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:23,200
Yes.
473
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:24,800
Which one?
474
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,680
- A cell.
- But more than one?
475
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:27,960
No.
476
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:32,320
Well…
477
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,440
I mean, more than one
but at different times.
478
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,920
- What was your cell's name?
- It didn't have one.
479
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,000
Some cells had names
or were given one later.
480
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:44,600
Where were they located?
481
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:49,240
One of them was practically mobile,
482
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,280
and another one was in Vizcaya.
483
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:52,840
What year was this?
484
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:54,960
The '70s.
485
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,080
Were you ever involved
in an attack in which people died?
486
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,160
Yes.
487
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,360
Can you tell us which one?
488
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,920
Yes, I can tell you.
489
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,280
Indirectly, in…
490
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,080
Indirectly, not in the cell.
But I was part of the group
491
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,280
for Carrero Blanco and…
492
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,960
And for another one,
the mayor of Galdakao.
493
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:26,200
ETA murdered him?
494
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,480
ETA killed him
and claimed responsibility, obviously.
495
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,800
MAYOR OF GALDAKAO MURDERED
WHEN HE LEFT HIS HOUSE YESTERDAY MORNING
496
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:40,400
{\an8}Your involvement in the attack
on Carrero Blanco was common knowledge.
497
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,320
{\an8}But we had no idea you were involved
498
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,360
{\an8}in the murder of the mayor of Galdakao.
499
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,120
{\an8}What role did you play in that cell?
500
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,640
The role I had to play.
501
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:51,680
Which was?
502
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,040
Whatever was needed.
503
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,400
You're in a cell and complete
an assignment that leads to
504
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,640
a person being killed.
505
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,320
- Were you assigned as the shooter?
- No.
506
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:06,520
Would you have shot if asked to?
507
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,000
Well, at the time, yes.
508
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,680
I think the attack on the mayor
of Galdakao was in 1976.
509
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,000
Franco had already died.
510
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,840
I don't know exactly, but, yes.
Well, I don't know exactly…
511
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,800
Anyway, the system, the fascist system
512
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:32,160
hadn't taken even the smallest step toward
what would be known soon after as…
513
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:37,120
"reform."
514
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,200
So they were informed…
515
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,880
ETA released not one,
but various statements
516
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,320
in which they said
that if people didn't resign,
517
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,360
they would be considered
as complicit in the system.
518
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:51,880
That was the threat that--
519
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,960
It wasn't a threat. It was
an analysis of the political situation.
520
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,560
They were collaborating
in the repression of the Basque people,
521
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,200
insofar as they represented
institutions that had not been elected.
522
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:04,000
That seems like a threat to me.
523
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,920
You can see it however you want,
524
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,720
but that's what it was.
525
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,960
And they were all aware of it.
526
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,160
To the point that
many of them had bodyguards.
527
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,960
- They had bodyguards by then?
- Yes.
528
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,640
- Did the Galdakao mayor have bodyguards?
- Yes.
529
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,320
You've acknowledged you participated
in another lethal attack,
530
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,480
the murder of the prime minister
of the Francoist government,
531
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,640
Luis Carrero Blanco, in 1973.
532
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:42,480
{\an8}OGRO, GILLO PONTECORVO, 1979
533
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,080
Ask if anything has happened
to the prime minister.
534
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,640
The officers in the other car
have been injured,
535
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,760
and we are trying to locate
the prime minister's car.
536
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,120
It looks like the car
on the roof is the prime minister's.
537
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,400
It looks like he's dead.
538
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,760
One year earlier, in January 1972,
539
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,000
three tons of explosives were stolen
from a supply depot in Hernani.
540
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,240
They were then used in this attack.
541
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,960
- Did you participate in that robbery?
- Yes.
542
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,320
Were you later involved
in the attack on Luis Carrero Blanco?
543
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:31,680
Not directly,
544
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:36,960
because I wasn't in
what they call the "Txikia Cell."
545
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,880
But, yes, in some phases
of the preparation of…
546
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,120
the Carrero Blanco operation.
547
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:48,600
Specifically…?
548
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,400
I just said one.
549
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,840
- The robbery?
- Obviously.
550
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:53,880
Any others?
551
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,920
Technical aspects,
transporting materials or…
552
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:00,640
Technical aspects.
553
00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:03,240
But that wasn't the original plan.
554
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:05,280
That operation…
555
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,160
Before Carrero Blanco
was appointed prime minister,
556
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,520
the organization planned to kidnap him.
557
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,680
In exchange for his freedom,
they were going to ask
558
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,560
for the release of political prisoners,
men and women.
559
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:20,880
But what happened?
560
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,480
When it was all set,
561
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,280
all the intel had been checked
and double-checked,
562
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,200
and the logistics were set…
563
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,320
Surprise.
564
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,920
Carrero Blanco
was appointed prime minister.
565
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,240
That meant he had more security
566
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,160
and that we had to adapt…
567
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:46,120
The group that was tasked
with the operation…
568
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,680
with kidnapping him,
had to change its plans.
569
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:59,360
In the early '70s, you were already
in the French Basque Country,
570
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,120
and that was where
571
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,000
the far-right Spanish Basque Battalion
tried to kill you.
572
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,960
I think it was in June 1975.
573
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,040
- Do you remember what happened?
- Yes.
574
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,120
I remember that day perfectly.
575
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,920
My wife at the time was in the kitchen.
576
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,440
I was on my knees,
577
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,240
writing on a bed, instead of at a desk.
578
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:30,480
My eldest son was
a little more than a year old,
579
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,240
and he was in the bed next to me.
580
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,440
And my daughter was a newborn.
581
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:40,400
She was in the room that had a view
of where my car was parked.
582
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,760
I immediately went
to the room closest to the explosion,
583
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,440
which is where she was in her crib.
584
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,840
She was covered in glass.
585
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,440
Well, she was lucky because she didn't…
586
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,040
Well, her eardrums were ruptured,
587
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,560
but that was the worst of it.
588
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,160
That's pretty bad on its own.
589
00:37:02,240 --> 00:37:05,360
She survived the blast
because the bed was taller than her crib.
590
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,440
So the glass… The explosion hit…
591
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,600
We went outside
because there was a fire by the entrance.
592
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,360
We went out a different door,
593
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,920
and I saw that the car was on fire and…
594
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,960
completely destroyed.
There was a body next to it.
595
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,000
Whose body?
596
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:28,640
It was one of the members
of the mercenary group
597
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,480
that had put the bomb on my car.
598
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,360
He had put the bomb there,
intending for it to explode
599
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,080
when I would get in the car
with my family the next day.
600
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,640
How did you feel, knowing one of your kids
could've died in that attack?
601
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:45,720
We all could've died.
602
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,240
How did I feel? Well…
603
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,080
They are victims…
In that case, they would've been…
604
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,160
They are. They would've been
and they are victims, obviously,
605
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,920
of an attack by the Spanish state.
606
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,600
Did you then have any moral qualms
607
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,720
about the bombs that ETA placed
608
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,560
to target people that were
in the same situation as your family?
609
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,120
Obviously, I mean…
610
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,400
Armed conflict…
611
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:19,800
in my opinion,
612
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:21,680
and in that of ETA…
613
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,840
Armed conflict was never an end in itself.
614
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:27,480
Ever.
615
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:34,480
But those decades of armed conflict
616
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,440
caused countless victims on both sides.
617
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,560
Irreversible victims.
618
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,760
Irreversible outcomes, I mean.
619
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,280
And I think
620
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:49,480
those victims…
621
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:53,280
must be acknowledged.
622
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,960
And the confrontation, the conflict…
623
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,080
has led us…
624
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,360
to practically forget,
625
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,560
almost always, the ethical side of things.
626
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:21,160
That aspect has been pushed aside
to an extent by the adverse consequences
627
00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:26,960
of the crescendoing spiral
of violence brought on by both sides.
628
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,520
And that violent spiral
629
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:33,960
has led all of us,
630
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:36,600
both men and women,
631
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,960
on both sides
632
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,480
to become desensitized
to the suffering of others.
633
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,000
To the pain of others.
634
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,280
- Is that what happened to you?
- Obviously.
635
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,600
But perhaps I realized that a posteriori.
636
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,280
Because, at the time,
when you're deep in the violence,
637
00:39:57,680 --> 00:39:59,960
to some extent you are unable
638
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,480
to move towards…
639
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,120
an awareness of your enemy's suffering.
640
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,160
And I'm referring to both sides.
641
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,400
There was no feeling of empathy
towards the other side's suffering.
642
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,080
No one put themselves
643
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,560
in the other side's shoes
to see how they suffered.
644
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,480
That happened on both sides.
645
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,680
Did you ever celebrate someone's death?
646
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,040
Absolutely not… Never.
647
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,760
Some ETA members have admitted
to celebrating attacks.
648
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,240
- Did you ever celebrate an ETA attack?
- No.
649
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,960
The only thing I've ever celebrated…
650
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,760
I'm not sure about Carrero Blanco.
Maybe, I don't know.
651
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,040
…was the death of Franco.
652
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,360
My fellow Spaniards,
653
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,560
Franco… has died.
654
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,800
Clearly, Franco's death didn't lead ETA
to abandon its goals.
655
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,240
Quite the opposite in fact,
if we take a look at the numbers.
656
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,720
Eighty dead in 1979.
657
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,200
Ninety-eight dead in 1980.
658
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,000
Almost two deaths per week.
659
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,440
What was ETA trying to achieve
with all those murders?
660
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:22,440
To use your words,
at that time ETA "was trying…"
661
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,640
to get
662
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,760
the Spanish government
663
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,560
to sit down and talk,
and, in turn, that dialogue would lead to
664
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,920
a negotiated solution to the problem.
665
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,800
Use corpses as leverage,
to force the Government to negotiate.
666
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,080
The goal obviously was
to destabilize the Government
667
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:48,240
so that the Government could analyze
the situation and say,
668
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,640
"Well, in order to avoid more deaths,
669
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,480
let's see what these people
who are causing these deaths really want."
670
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,800
"What do they want? Let's talk to them."
671
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,560
Didn't you find it troubling
672
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:12,520
the organization you belonged to
killed 98 people in one year?
673
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,040
It's not about being "troubled."
674
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,400
I used the same language that you used
regarding the La Peineta attack.
675
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,280
I've always thought
that those deaths could've been avoided.
676
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,240
Were you a friend of Yoyes's?
677
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,880
I wouldn't say we were friends,
but, yes, I knew her.
678
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:35,720
María Dolores González Katarain, Yoyes,
679
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:39,080
was the first woman
to be a top member of ETA.
680
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:42,520
She cut ties with the organization in 1979
681
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,400
and went into exile in Mexico.
682
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:47,320
According to a friend,
683
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,760
you were the person that saw her off
when she left for Mexico. Is that true?
684
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,320
Yes, I was there with other people too.
Yes, I went with her. That's true.
685
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:58,280
But not just that.
686
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,800
I saw Yoyes in Mexico.
687
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:05,040
When was that?
688
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,680
I don't remember when exactly,
but it was when she was in Mexico.
689
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,880
- She was already exiled in Mexico.
- Yes.
690
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,800
- No longer in the organization.
- Yes.
691
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,000
You knew Yoyes had left the organization.
692
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,160
- But you went to Mexico and saw her.
- That's exactly right.
693
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:23,640
We had lunch, dinner, spent time… Yes.
694
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,560
ETA murdered Yoyes
695
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,200
on September 10th, 1986
696
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,600
in her town's main square.
She was with her son.
697
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,960
She was 32 years old.
698
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,960
YOYES TRAITOR
699
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:46,240
YOYES SNITCH
700
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,640
How did you feel when ETA killed Yoyes?
701
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,040
It was different… It's… I don't know.
702
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,640
It's very hard to express
my feelings at the time.
703
00:43:56,720 --> 00:43:58,240
It was very tough.
704
00:43:58,800 --> 00:43:59,960
I…
705
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,200
It tore me up inside and still does
706
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,960
because, as I said,
707
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,800
I knew her,
and we had a relationship to an extent.
708
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,120
But at the time,
709
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,920
ETA, probably ETA's leadership,
710
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,920
determined…
711
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,640
that the steps that Yoyes had taken
to get in touch with
712
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:34,480
people at the Ministry of the Interior…
713
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:41,520
Obviously, back then, "agreeing on" steps
to some extent with the enemy meant
714
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,640
accepting a policy
of rehabilitation, division,
715
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:50,640
that was put in place
by Felipe González's administration.
716
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,920
Was crossing that line and contacting
the Ministry of the Interior
717
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,160
why Yoyes was murdered?
718
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:06,080
It's clear that ETA found it necessary
to cut out
719
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:11,280
the sort of cancer
that could've resulted from that.
720
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,680
Once a person has…
721
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,400
I am speaking from
a qualitative standpoint… That was key.
722
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,840
- Were you involved in that decision?
- No.
723
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,200
I want to read to you
from Yoyes's personal diary.
724
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:29,120
"I, María Dolores González Katarain,
state that ETA threatened me
725
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,320
because they learned
that I intended to return from exile
726
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,360
to live with my family
in Southern Euskadi."
727
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,560
"It is unacceptable for an organization
that claims to be revolutionary
728
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,560
to use Stalinist or fascist tactics
729
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,520
against former members."
730
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,720
As Yoyes wrote,
731
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,640
did ETA use fascist tactics to murder her?
732
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:57,880
I don't consider them to be fascist.
They're the result of political analysis.
733
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,000
Have you ever had the chance to…?
734
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,120
Have you ever met
anyone from Yoyes's family?
735
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:06,040
No.
736
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,280
If you could say something to them,
what would you say?
737
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:12,800
First, my deepest sympathy.
738
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,040
In 1988, Yoyes's sister said
739
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:23,760
ETA had sentenced her to death
because she didn't think like them.
740
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,040
As much as her death pains me,
741
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,920
I don't agree with that because…
742
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:38,480
I've never thought that ETA killed people
because they didn't share their beliefs.
743
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,440
Instead, they killed her
because, one way or another,
744
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:47,360
she collaborated with repressive ideas
or in the repression
745
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,360
of the pro-independence left.
746
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:55,920
You think there's
a political justification for this murder.
747
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:57,480
Killing…
748
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:59,440
is wrong.
749
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,400
Neither her death
nor any others would've happened
750
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,640
if, when ETA voiced the demands
751
00:47:06,720 --> 00:47:12,280
of a large portion of the Basque people,
they had not fallen on deaf ears.
752
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,320
Instead, there was just more repression.
753
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:18,760
Allow me to highlight something.
754
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaking of "a large portion
of the Basque Country,"
755
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,960
according to the results
of successive elections
756
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,400
where, in one way or another,
the Basque pro-independence left ran
757
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,840
via their most famous party,
which was Herri Batasuna,
758
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:39,320
they didn't receive
more than 15% or 16% of the votes.
759
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,600
Meaning, it wasn't
actually "a large portion."
760
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:46,640
It was a large portion. I'll say it again.
761
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:49,240
When you talk about "the Basque people,"
762
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,400
sometimes it might make sense
to say, "part of the Basque people."
763
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,920
Yes, because in that sense…
One should speak in geographic terms too.
764
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:03,080
Not just in terms of political preferences
765
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:04,720
but also geographically.
766
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,480
And, in terms of percentages, it's clear--
767
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:09,480
That's what I mean.
768
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,960
…at the polls, the majority
of the Basque people never supported,
769
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,040
en masse, ETA's thesis.
770
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,640
Having said that,
was Yoyes's murder a mistake?
771
00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:21,480
I think that at the time,
772
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,120
I, as a member of the organization,
773
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,480
respected the organization's decision,
774
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,080
which was made
for political reasons. That's it.
775
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:56,800
Do you know how to make a car bomb?
776
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:57,880
No.
777
00:48:58,840 --> 00:48:59,840
No.
778
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:06,160
In just two years, 1986 and 1987,
779
00:49:06,240 --> 00:49:09,040
four car bombs killed 49 people.
780
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,200
Ten of them were children.
781
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,000
- Were you a leader of ETA at the time?
- No.
782
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:18,960
- Not in the political arm or military arm?
- I was… No.
783
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:20,920
I was part of the international arm.
784
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,960
Wasn't that part of the leadership?
785
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,000
No.
786
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,320
- Not even the political leadership?
- No.
787
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:32,480
The international arm was
entirely separate from the rest.
788
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,680
Who did you report to? In which…?
789
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:39,320
Well, to people
who were part of ETA's leadership.
790
00:49:40,240 --> 00:49:42,960
Did you have any moral qualms
791
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:48,840
about the fact that this tactic
could kill many people indiscriminately?
792
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:53,720
I think nobody knew beforehand
people would be killed indiscriminately.
793
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:54,720
Who didn't know?
794
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:00,040
When you change tactics from one day
to the next, nobody knows
795
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:04,160
if people will be killed indiscriminately.
796
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:05,920
- It became clear very quickly…
- Yes…
797
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:07,960
Yes, exactly.
798
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,280
I don't know if it was
the first car bomb or the second,
799
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,680
but there were already deaths
that had nothing to do with ETA's targets.
800
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:20,080
And I'd prefer not
to categorize victims, but ETA did.
801
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,800
No, it's disgusting…
802
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:29,600
If anyone categorized… victims,
803
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:31,640
it was the State.
804
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:33,320
For example…
805
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:35,120
ETA didn't?
806
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,560
Categorize victims? Never.
807
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:41,720
They avoided causing more victims
but never categorized them.
808
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:47,560
I remember an attack on…
809
00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:52,160
I don't think
Aznar was the prime minister yet.
810
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:57,440
Someone died. I don't know
if it was Portugal… Someone died.
811
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:04,520
Later on, that person wasn't mentioned
in any critiques of that attack.
812
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,920
They were mentioned as dead,
but they weren't important.
813
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,600
The important one…
They were already categorizing people.
814
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,320
They made Aznar the important one.
815
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,240
You're saying someone died
in an attack on Aznar,
816
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:17,800
and no one talked about them.
817
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:22,560
I mean, the categorization wasn't made
by the pro-independence left.
818
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,000
But it obviously happened.
819
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,800
Do you remember what happened
on June 19th, 1987?
820
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:32,640
The 19th…?
821
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,640
No. June 19th, 1987?
822
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:39,800
Well, no. I don't.
823
00:51:40,720 --> 00:51:42,360
That year… no.
824
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,080
A lot of stuff happened that year.
Tons of stuff.
825
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,160
But I don't remember that exact date.
826
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,960
- Hipercor.
- Well, of course.
827
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,000
- Hello?
- Yes?
828
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,720
- Good afternoon.
- Good afternoon.
829
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,400
I'm calling on behalf of ETA.
830
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:58,320
JUNE 19TH
831
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,920
The Hipercor on Meridiana Ave.
will explode at 3:30 p.m.
832
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,920
People should definitely leave
the parking garage.
833
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,760
- 3:30 p.m.?
- 3:40 p.m.
834
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,520
Everyone should leave, especially
from the garage. But no cars.
835
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:10,680
Long live Euskadi.
836
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,240
I was surprised you didn't remember
what happened that day.
837
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,600
- No, why would I?
- Since it was so important.
838
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:34,920
Right, but I don't…
839
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,760
I'll tell you I do remember
other days that year.
840
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,040
So…
841
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,120
There was, I believe,
842
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:48,920
the largest roundup in the French state
since the Vél d'Hiv Roundup
843
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,120
in Paris in 1944.
844
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:53,880
That I do remember.
845
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:56,040
Either way…
846
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,760
There were so many dates…
However, as you said,
847
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,720
this one is important.
That's true. You're right,
848
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:09,560
due to the consequences of that day
and the way it happened.
849
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,800
So I could have…
850
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,560
I could have remembered it.
851
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,280
What did you think when you saw
that ETA killed 21 people,
852
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:20,880
four of which were children,
853
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,680
at a supermarket
in a working-class area of Barcelona?
854
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:27,680
What did I think? Well…
855
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:32,600
I thought about the consequences…
856
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,160
of the organization's mistake.
857
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:38,200
Was Hipercor a mistake?
858
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:40,960
I think so.
859
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:44,880
But I consider it a mistake…
860
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,800
because…
861
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,520
ETA… trusted…
862
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:01,520
a Government, a State,
863
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,160
whose job was to protect its citizens.
864
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:12,520
And even though… two warnings
to evacuate were given,
865
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:14,440
they didn't.
866
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:19,440
In fact, the State was also found guilty
of police negligence.
867
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,480
Protecting society is their job,
868
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:25,720
especially…
869
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:33,880
if they receive two warnings
about a bomb in a supermarket,
870
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:39,880
in which there were hundreds of people,
hundreds of individuals.
871
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:46,720
Let me get this straight.
Did ETA make a mistake or not?
872
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:54,040
Come on, I already said it was a mistake,
insofar as ETA's assessment.
873
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:57,800
That's how they get you.
That's how the Government tricks you.
874
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,160
You think that no matter what you do…
875
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:04,480
Because probably up until that point…
876
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:12,360
Up until that point,
whenever ETA warned of a bomb,
877
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:17,800
the… corresponding authorities went
and evacuated people.
878
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:20,920
"If that's how it works,
let's keep doing it."
879
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,520
So that was the miscalculation.
880
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:28,040
It was a huge mistake
that had irreparable consequences
881
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,240
and affected working-class people.
882
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:32,840
- That's a fact.
- But that's why?
883
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,400
Just because the police
didn't evacuate people?
884
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,680
Because killing 21 people
wasn't ETA's goal.
885
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,280
That was a consequence
of the police not evacuating.
886
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:47,480
I mean, when one puts a car bomb
in a supermarket parking garage,
887
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,120
it may go off with people around.
888
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,640
That right there is a mistake.
That's the mistake,
889
00:55:53,720 --> 00:56:00,200
analyzing the potential consequences
of a place with hundreds of people.
890
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:05,480
And on top of that,
you add the fact that you trust
891
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:09,040
a State that doesn't do its job.
892
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:14,960
You're saying that ETA only meant
to cause property damage in the attack.
893
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:15,960
Exactly.
894
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:19,880
And that's what they said
when they claimed responsibility.
895
00:56:21,200 --> 00:56:27,040
Apart from the explosives
and shrapnel in the Hipercor car bomb,
896
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,800
there were soap flakes,
897
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:36,080
which allowed the fire
to spread as far as possible.
898
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,840
That's why the victims,
some of them, were burned alive.
899
00:56:40,920 --> 00:56:43,920
When one builds a car bomb like that,
900
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,160
they're doing it for a reason, not just…
901
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:50,200
to cause property damage.
902
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,560
You're taking this a bit too far,
and I'll tell you why.
903
00:56:55,720 --> 00:57:00,160
Committing terrorism is
the easiest thing in the world to do.
904
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:08,040
I don't believe, at all,
that ETA's goal was committing terrorism.
905
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,760
Terrorism is what we saw in London, Paris…
906
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,640
And most recently in 2004 in Madrid.
907
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,760
So ETA's goal,
908
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:25,680
which has been stated time and time again,
909
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,960
never was to cause victims.
910
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,920
It was to cause damage.
911
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:40,920
And if the store caught fire,
then that meant even more damage.
912
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,640
When we were discussing
jihadist terrorism,
913
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,920
you said it "had no raison d'être"
914
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,440
and, furthermore,
that you thought it was "absurd"
915
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:52,960
that any citizen could become a target.
916
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,000
Didn't ETA do the same thing at Hipercor?
917
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:57,000
Come on…
918
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:58,960
Not at all.
919
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:02,680
The reason behind what ETA did…
920
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,800
ETA's goal was clear.
921
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,800
It was to cause property damage.
922
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:12,800
There is no way…
923
00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:16,080
There is no way that their goal was…
924
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,680
And comparing it to jihadist terrorism is
a bit of a stretch.
925
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:24,920
No matter where jihadists strike,
whether that's Madrid, London, or Syria,
926
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,040
they claim responsibility for everything,
927
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,640
and they say… they meant all of it.
928
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:31,680
They would've been thrilled
929
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,800
if 1,400 people had died in Madrid,
not just 400.
930
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:40,400
Neither in Hipercor
nor any other instance in ETA's history,
931
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:45,480
did the organization seek to kill people,
as you say, "indiscriminately."
932
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:48,400
- Never.
- But they have.
933
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,000
Obviously, they have.
934
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,240
Here we go again.
ETA said it was a mistake.
935
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,680
- How'd you feel on the days followi--?
- Terrible.
936
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:00,920
Terrible.
937
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,160
If you were talking to
one of the Hipercor victims now,
938
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:09,520
what would you say?
939
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:10,480
Well…
940
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,600
I'd tell them that I feel for them,
that I feel for them deeply.
941
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:16,120
But we'd be going back
942
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,720
to the question of whether whatever I say,
943
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:26,920
with as much empathy as possible,
would help that person. No, it wouldn't.
944
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:28,960
It happened in the past.
945
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,880
Will they feel less pain if I say…?
946
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,280
Plus, they'll say, "You don't mean it."
947
00:59:35,680 --> 00:59:38,040
And let me tell you something else.
948
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,920
If I were in their shoes,
I'd probably do the same thing.
949
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,600
On December 11th, 1987,
950
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,240
ETA planted a car bomb
951
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,240
in a family barracks
of the Civil Guard in Zaragoza.
952
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:09,360
Eleven people were killed.
Six of them were children.
953
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,960
This was six months after Hipercor.
954
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:20,560
You called the Hipercor attack a mistake.
955
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:23,360
Was the Zaragoza attack a mistake?
956
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,120
I wouldn't examine it
from that perspective at all.
957
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:33,280
If we turn to print news archives…
958
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,680
and look at ETA's statements and messages
959
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:43,160
from well before the attack,
960
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:46,920
we'd see that they said
time and time again
961
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,000
that as of a certain date,
which I don't remember,
962
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:57,920
not only Civil Guard officers,
police, and soldiers would be targets
963
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,040
but also family barracks.
964
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:01,520
And that's why
965
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:08,600
the Civil Guard was asked to remove
families from the family barracks.
966
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:11,920
That's public knowledge.
967
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:17,720
But the Civil Guard didn't listen,
968
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,160
and they hunkered down in their bunkers.
969
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:24,800
So ETA decided to act accordingly,
970
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,360
after conducting their political analysis
971
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:29,920
in which they "stated,"
for lack of a better term,
972
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,280
that family barracks would become targets.
973
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:38,800
So, that was a consequence
of ETA's decision.
974
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:46,240
DECEMBER 11TH
975
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:11,400
Having said that,
976
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:15,160
do you have any qualms about the attack
on the family barracks in Zaragoza?
977
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:21,200
The qualms I have are, on the one hand,
the fact that victims obviously were
978
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:25,760
women… Above all, there were children.
979
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:31,960
That was the unfortunate,
irreparable result
980
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,640
of the consequences of that attack.
981
01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:38,360
I obviously was deeply affected by it,
982
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:43,000
by the fact
that those victims were entirely unrelated
983
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,240
to the symbolism
of the Civil Guard barracks.
984
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:51,600
But they planted a car bomb
next to a Civil Guard barracks,
985
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:52,760
at night,
986
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:56,720
knowing that people were asleep inside,
987
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,560
including the families
of Civil Guard officers
988
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:05,280
that were sleeping there with them.
Children, husbands, wives…
989
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:09,760
They must've known
what was going to happen.
990
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:17,120
I can't speak to the analysis of those
who approved and conducted the operation.
991
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:21,560
But, well… They probably knew.
992
01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:24,040
Who knows to what extent?
Maybe they didn't know.
993
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:28,040
How could one think otherwise
while planting a car bomb full of--?
994
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:30,920
I can't get inside the heads of the people
995
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:34,200
that conducted… that operation.
996
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,440
I can't tell you
what was going through their heads.
997
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:46,840
What was going through yours
when you saw the results of that atta--?
998
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:48,560
It was painful.
999
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,480
It was painful,
and that shouldn't have happened.
1000
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:55,040
Regarding the Zaragoza attack,
1001
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:57,440
you're telling me
that ETA had already announced
1002
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,560
that family members should leave barracks
1003
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:04,600
and that only Civil Guard officers
should sleep in them.
1004
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:09,000
Therefore, since that didn't happen,
the result was what it was.
1005
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:12,360
And you're telling me
that, with respect to Hipercor,
1006
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:18,760
the fact that the police didn't evacuate
the garage also sort of meant,
1007
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:22,320
"Well, shit. If they don't evacuate,
what choice do we have?"
1008
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:23,720
Isn't that cynical?
1009
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,680
I think you're taking things
out of context
1010
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:29,400
and framing facts
in a way that benefits you.
1011
01:04:31,560 --> 01:04:37,200
In my opinion, there clearly was a mistake
in what happened with Hipercor. There was.
1012
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,600
You'll say, "The consequences were…"
I agree, horrible and irreparable.
1013
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:45,560
In response to your question
about the Zaragoza barracks,
1014
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,720
I contextualized
the situation at the time.
1015
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:52,840
And the consequences were
grave, irreversible, and painful.
1016
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,000
So I'm not being cynical in the slightest.
1017
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:00,920
There's no doubt I was deeply affected
1018
01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:03,960
by the fact
that those victims were children.
1019
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,480
What if they had been
Civil Guard officers?
1020
01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:14,040
Well, the Civil Guard officers knew
what their job was.
1021
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:17,160
Wasn't their motto
"Give everything for the homeland"?
1022
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,960
If they were staying
in that barracks or any other one,
1023
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,480
especially if it was near
the Basque Country
1024
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:26,560
and housed groups…
1025
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,240
like special task forces
that repressed the Basque Country,
1026
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:31,760
then they knew what to expect.
1027
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,800
That was their job. You said…
1028
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:37,400
Rather, I told you
1029
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:40,560
that whenever ETA members
1030
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,960
underwent whatever… or were repressed
1031
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:49,440
or killed in a confrontation,
1032
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,200
they weren't victims at all.
1033
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:57,040
They volunteered,
and so did the Civil Guard officers.
1034
01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:00,640
I mean, they weren't volunteers.
They chose that career.
1035
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:05,080
Earlier, you said
categorizing victims was disgusting.
1036
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:07,840
- Isn't that what you're doing now?
- Not at all.
1037
01:06:07,920 --> 01:06:11,120
- So it's not as disgusting as you said?
- I'm not doing that.
1038
01:06:11,200 --> 01:06:14,040
I'm not categorizing victims at all.
1039
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,560
You're saying that
if some victims are Civil Guard officers
1040
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:20,440
or members of Spain's law enforcement…
1041
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,640
They were ETA's targets at the time.
1042
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,640
The fact they were targets
is entirely separate…
1043
01:06:27,720 --> 01:06:30,640
I'm not categorizing victims at all.
1044
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,920
Yes, you are. You're saying
you felt bad when they were kids.
1045
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:38,360
But the Civil Guard was defending
their homeland, so they could die for it.
1046
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,240
Yes, but I'm not categorizing
victims at all. In my opinion--
1047
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:43,520
That's a categorization,
Mr. Urrutikoetxea.
1048
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,240
That's not how I see it.
1049
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,760
As you're well aware, the Spanish courts
want to extradite and try you for this.
1050
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:56,560
And, in fact, the French courts
are willing to grant that.
1051
01:06:57,640 --> 01:06:59,480
You are accused
1052
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:07,440
of being a leader of ETA at the time…
and, therefore, of ordering that attack.
1053
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:09,880
Mr. Urrutikoetxea, did you order
the Zaragoza attack?
1054
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:10,960
Absolutely not.
1055
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,760
That's number one. Number two,
I wasn't part of ETA's leadership.
1056
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,360
There are Civil Guard reports
that point to you
1057
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:21,600
as ETA's political leader at the time.
1058
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,680
There were also statements
from your comrades, like Elena Beloki.
1059
01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:28,240
In a sworn statement, she named you
1060
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:30,960
as a member of ETA's leadership in 1987.
1061
01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,520
That is one of the factors
that led the Civil Guard to…
1062
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:36,600
That's not literally what
her statement said.
1063
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:39,400
- What did it say?
- It said it was possible.
1064
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,040
But it wasn't an affirmation.
1065
01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:45,400
That was the case
with everyone that accused me,
1066
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:48,520
whether it was Soares Gamboa
or anyone else.
1067
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:50,240
They said the same thing.
1068
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,040
There's no proof whatsoever, anywhere.
1069
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,520
MAY 29TH
1070
01:07:58,040 --> 01:08:01,480
In 1991, ETA attacked
1071
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:03,800
another Civil Guard family barracks.
1072
01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:05,440
This time, in Vic.
1073
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:09,000
Ten people were killed,
and half of them were children.
1074
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,720
The perpetrators of that attack,
1075
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:17,280
the terrorists that pushed the car bomb,
1076
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:21,640
they sent it down a ramp
at the family barracks in Vic.
1077
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:26,040
At the bottom, you could see
kids playing in the courtyard.
1078
01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:29,600
Despite that fact,
they decided to push the car.
1079
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:33,000
I don't know exactly…
If you say that's what happened…
1080
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:37,280
- That is what eyewitnesses said.
- Yes, but I don't know…
1081
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:39,840
If that's what you say,
then that's what happened.
1082
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,320
And what do you think about that?
1083
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:48,640
Well, if that person pushed the car
even though they saw kids there,
1084
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:54,920
then I think an erroneous stance
was taken by the people
1085
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:58,240
that were going to conduct
or that were conducting the operation.
1086
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:01,560
I ask because, with respect to
the Zaragoza attack, you said
1087
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,440
the car bomb was placed at night
1088
01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:08,760
and that they weren't able to calculate
the consequences.
1089
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:11,720
I disagreed with you then,
but in this case
1090
01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:15,080
the consequences were
right at the bottom of the ramp.
1091
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:16,520
I already addressed this.
1092
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:24,640
José Antonio Urrutikoetxea,
alias Josu Ternera,
1093
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,400
was arrested by intelligence services
while he was on his motorcycle.
1094
01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:31,720
Josu Ternera is considered to be
ETA's number one.
1095
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,760
He was involved in the death
of Admiral Carrero Blanco
1096
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,560
and had narrowly evaded French police
1097
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:39,640
in Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle.
1098
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:43,280
Following your arrest in 1989,
1099
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:47,040
you spent 11 years in prison.
1100
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:50,840
First, you did time in France.
What were you convicted of?
1101
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:54,320
I was arrested in '89 in Bayonne,
1102
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:57,960
and they charged me with conspiracy
1103
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:02,200
to commit terrorist acts,
or something like that.
1104
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,000
Perhaps that's not
the literal translation,
1105
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,600
but that's the crime I was tried for.
1106
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,840
Today, French authorities handed over
Josu Ternera, a top member of ETA,
1107
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:16,280
to Spanish police
at the border crossing near La Junquera.
1108
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:19,840
He is suspected
of leading ETA's international arm
1109
01:10:19,920 --> 01:10:25,360
and of being involved in the extortion
of Basque business owners.
1110
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,120
After serving seven years in France,
1111
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:31,720
you were extradited to Spain in 1996
1112
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:34,880
and sent to the Alcalá Meco prison.
1113
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:39,080
You spent four more years in prison,
in preventive detention in this case,
1114
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,720
while you were being investigated
for other crimes.
1115
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,480
That same year, 1996, ETA had kidnapped
1116
01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:46,800
the corrections officer Ortega Lara.
1117
01:10:47,400 --> 01:10:51,400
I'd like to know
what the corrections officers were like
1118
01:10:51,480 --> 01:10:53,840
when you arrived at Alcalá Meco
1119
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:57,280
at the time
that Ortega Lara was being held captive.
1120
01:10:57,360 --> 01:11:00,880
In general, they were very cold, very…
1121
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:06,040
Excuse me. Very disdainful.
However, allow me to clarify
1122
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:10,720
that they had the same attitude
after the Ortega Lara thing.
1123
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,200
It wasn't only because…
That's just how it was.
1124
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:17,240
- They saw us as the enemy.
- ETA clearly saw them the same way too.
1125
01:11:17,320 --> 01:11:20,800
- That's how ETA saw the prison guards.
- Yes, at that time.
1126
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,520
Kidnapping Ortega Lara was
evidence of that.
1127
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:29,320
He was held captive for 532 days
in inhumane conditions, in a hole.
1128
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:33,080
JULY 1ST
1129
01:11:57,160 --> 01:11:59,640
What did you think
when you saw that iconic image?
1130
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:01,440
That of Ortega Lara
1131
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:05,280
after he suffered a kidnapping
that was so…
1132
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:08,360
What did I think?
That must've been very hard for him.
1133
01:12:08,440 --> 01:12:11,320
If you've ever been
in solitary confinement
1134
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,160
like my comrades, both men and women,
1135
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:19,240
for 20 years or more, not 539 days,
1136
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:21,560
then you can imagine
1137
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:24,800
it must be very hard
to be stuck somewhere like that.
1138
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,760
Would Ortega Lara have died
if they hadn't found him?
1139
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:31,640
I don't know.
1140
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:33,960
Considering ETA's demands,
1141
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:36,640
the transfer of imprisoned ETA members
to Basque prisons…
1142
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:39,840
I don't know. There were demands.
There were facts…
1143
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:43,840
I… In my opinion…
1144
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:48,640
I think that ETA perhaps…
1145
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:53,200
As you said, their goal was
to exchange him for prisoners.
1146
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:59,480
Perhaps they would've waited for that
or for steps to be taken in that direction
1147
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:01,080
and then let him go.
1148
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,640
{\an8}Well, we therefore think
1149
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:09,680
{\an8}that the police
as well as many politicians
1150
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,480
{\an8}will praise the use of repression.
1151
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,360
We'd like to give them some advice.
1152
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:18,600
Be careful about
getting drunk off repression
1153
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:23,640
because there's the inevitable hangover.
1154
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:27,880
Just days after Ortega Lara was freed,
very few days after that in fact,
1155
01:13:27,960 --> 01:13:32,880
and a few days after that statement
from the Herri Batasuna spokesman,
1156
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:35,920
ETA kidnapped an Ermua town councilor
from the Popular Party,
1157
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:37,280
Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1158
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:39,000
Was that the hangover?
1159
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:41,680
That's your interpretation of it.
1160
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:43,600
What about yours?
1161
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:46,400
Of that? I don't think so. I don't know.
1162
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:50,280
I can't get inside the heads
of the people that decided
1163
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:53,160
to kidnap Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1164
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,320
Anyway, that wouldn't have made any sense.
1165
01:13:57,400 --> 01:14:00,280
- Was that ETA's revenge?
- I don't think so.
1166
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,440
I don't think so because,
from what I've seen…
1167
01:14:04,440 --> 01:14:07,520
I've always thought,
and from what I've seen,
1168
01:14:08,560 --> 01:14:12,320
that revenge is an attitude
1169
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:17,240
that serves no purpose, none whatsoever,
in helping us move forward
1170
01:14:17,320 --> 01:14:22,360
in our project to rebuild Euskal Herria.
1171
01:14:22,440 --> 01:14:23,640
None whatsoever.
1172
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:25,480
And…
1173
01:14:25,560 --> 01:14:28,600
Besides, hate and revenge blind you
1174
01:14:28,680 --> 01:14:31,920
and don't allow you
to analyze things correctly.
1175
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:35,640
What did you think when you heard about
the kidnapping of Miguel Ángel Blanco?
1176
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:40,000
I thought that…
1177
01:14:42,480 --> 01:14:45,160
I didn't really understand it.
That's the truth.
1178
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:47,320
I didn't really understand what…
1179
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:52,120
the goal of that operation was.
1180
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:56,720
That's all. I didn't get it.
I had no information. I didn't get it.
1181
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:02,000
JULY 11TH
1182
01:15:04,480 --> 01:15:07,920
ETA KIDNAPS A TOWN COUNCILOR
AND THREATENS TO MURDER HIM TOMORROW
1183
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,600
DEADLINE SET AT 4:00 P.M.
1184
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:18,160
ETA gave the Government 48 hours
1185
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:21,320
to transfer prisoners to Euskadi.
1186
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:24,640
Otherwise, they were going to execute
Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1187
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,040
At the time, you were
an imprisoned ETA member.
1188
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:29,920
How did you feel about that extortion?
1189
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,560
I'll say it again.
Due to the information I had at the time,
1190
01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:41,040
which was very limited, I thought…
1191
01:15:41,120 --> 01:15:44,560
I don't know. It didn't make sense.
I couldn't see the reasoning.
1192
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:49,760
During those 48 hours, did you express
your disagreement with what ETA had done?
1193
01:15:50,360 --> 01:15:53,720
It wasn't about doing that publicly.
Why would I have done that publicly?
1194
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,960
My disagreement with
what happened or my critiques
1195
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:00,480
or my point of view…
1196
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:05,760
I presented that constructively
to whomever needed to hear it.
1197
01:16:06,440 --> 01:16:08,200
Did you when you had the chance?
1198
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:10,720
Of course, I did.
1199
01:16:14,480 --> 01:16:16,680
JULY 12TH
1200
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:21,640
Over those few days,
hundreds of thousands of people,
1201
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:26,480
not just in the rest of Spain
but also in the Basque Country this time,
1202
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:31,840
took to the streets, demanding
that ETA spare Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1203
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:33,880
Why didn't ETA listen?
1204
01:16:33,960 --> 01:16:39,120
I think ETA ignored
what the people were saying,
1205
01:16:39,200 --> 01:16:41,200
what a part of the people were saying.
1206
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:46,840
You ignore someone
if you can't hear them or don't want to.
1207
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:50,480
Forty-eight hours went by.
1208
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:54,240
It was 4:00 p.m. that Saturday.
1209
01:16:54,320 --> 01:16:56,320
ETA made good on its threat
1210
01:16:57,200 --> 01:16:59,040
and murdered Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1211
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,080
We've received confirmation…
1212
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:02,160
JULY 13TH
1213
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:04,600
…that Miguel Ángel has been murdered.
1214
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:09,120
Murderers!
1215
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:14,280
They're not Basque! They're murderers!
1216
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:20,720
ETA, shoot me in the head!
1217
01:17:23,440 --> 01:17:26,600
You saw that crowd
of Basque people shouting,
1218
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,160
for example, "They're not Basque.
They're murderers."
1219
01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:33,160
"ETA, shoot me in the head."
What was your assessment?
1220
01:17:34,520 --> 01:17:38,520
My assessment was
that it was clear and obvious
1221
01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:44,960
that part of the men and women
of the Basque Country disagreed
1222
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:46,400
and took issue with it.
1223
01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:48,800
That was my assessment.
1224
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:52,160
Even people who used to agree
with the thesis…
1225
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,000
I don't know who did or didn't agree.
1226
01:17:54,080 --> 01:18:01,080
Maybe many people that historically hadn't
"taken to the streets," as you say, did so
1227
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:02,960
to voice their dissent.
1228
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:04,240
That's obvious.
1229
01:18:05,600 --> 01:18:08,000
Did you know
Francisco Javier García Gaztelu?
1230
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:09,120
- Alias "Txapote."
- No…
1231
01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:12,480
He perpetrated
Miguel Ángel Blanco's murder.
1232
01:18:13,440 --> 01:18:17,000
If you could have talked to him,
what would you have said
1233
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:20,400
during the 48-hour kidnapping
of Miguel Ángel Blanco?
1234
01:18:20,480 --> 01:18:24,520
I would've said
I didn't think it was an operation….
1235
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:28,920
that should have taken place. Period.
1236
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:30,360
Why did you think that?
1237
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:33,920
I believe it was…
1238
01:18:37,440 --> 01:18:38,520
a mistake…
1239
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,840
in political and human terms,
with irreversible consequences
1240
01:18:42,920 --> 01:18:48,560
that didn't favor whatsoever… the path…
1241
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:51,400
which, from my point of view,
1242
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:55,640
and I'm sure ETA's at the time,
1243
01:18:56,360 --> 01:19:01,560
was leading towards
a negotiated settlement to the conflict.
1244
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,200
Did you consider leaving ETA at that time?
1245
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:08,640
Why? Because I disagreed with…?
1246
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:10,000
No.
1247
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:13,560
{\an8}Today the Basque Country saw
something unprecedented
1248
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:15,600
{\an8}yet entirely legal.
1249
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:17,640
Josu Ternera, ETA's former leader,
1250
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,640
entered the Parliament
to register as a member of parliament.
1251
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:24,320
Josu Ternera,
one of ETA's heavyweights behind bars,
1252
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:27,600
returned to prison
after he had been freed for a few hours.
1253
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:29,680
While in prison,
1254
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:32,960
you were elected
to the Basque Parliament in 1998
1255
01:19:33,040 --> 01:19:36,240
under the coalition Euskal Herritarrok,
1256
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:39,520
which was a proxy of the party Batasuna.
1257
01:19:40,440 --> 01:19:44,840
You couldn't regularly
attend parliamentary sessions
1258
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:49,040
until you were freed in 2000.
1259
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:51,720
Josu Ternera was released
from prison today.
1260
01:19:51,800 --> 01:19:55,480
The Supreme Court ruled
that in France he was already tried
1261
01:19:55,560 --> 01:19:58,080
and sentenced to ten years in prison
for the same crime.
1262
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:01,720
Now that I am free,
I intend to participate
1263
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:06,960
in an ongoing project in Euskal Herria,
which is that of building Euskal Herria.
1264
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:15,080
Seeing you in the Basque Parliament
was stunning.
1265
01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:17,720
How did you feel the day
you took your seat
1266
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:20,760
as a representative of Basque citizens?
1267
01:20:21,480 --> 01:20:23,720
Nothing special. Just, well…
1268
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:25,600
The people,
1269
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:29,280
my constituency, obviously…
1270
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:33,920
They elected me,
and my duty was to do my job
1271
01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:37,360
in representing that part of the people,
who elected me.
1272
01:20:37,440 --> 01:20:39,720
That was my duty. My obligation.
1273
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:41,000
…information--
1274
01:20:45,200 --> 01:20:49,440
In 2000, the same year you start
attending parliamentary sessions,
1275
01:20:49,960 --> 01:20:53,400
ETA doubled down and killed 23 people.
1276
01:20:53,920 --> 01:20:58,400
The last time ETA caused that many deaths
in one year was eight years prior.
1277
01:20:58,480 --> 01:21:02,480
And they would never kill that many people
in such a short span ever again.
1278
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:06,600
Scream because as long as you scream,
you're not killing!
1279
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:08,600
Among the dead were
1280
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,560
elected officials,
1281
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:12,280
journalists,
1282
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:15,840
or businesspeople that refused to pay ETA
1283
01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:17,960
the so-called revolutionary tax.
1284
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:23,720
Doesn't the mafia kill people
that don't pay up?
1285
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:33,360
That's not the point.
1286
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:35,880
Those deaths were avoidable.
1287
01:21:35,960 --> 01:21:38,800
Those people were involved in the process
1288
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:43,360
and, as you said, knew the consequences.
1289
01:21:43,440 --> 01:21:46,760
Plus, they said so publicly
and didn't bat an eye.
1290
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:50,520
I'll say it again. I think it was sad,
1291
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:53,760
but those were
consequences of the conflict.
1292
01:21:55,160 --> 01:21:58,400
Did you support
that type of revolutionary tax?
1293
01:21:59,200 --> 01:22:02,600
The revolutionary tax was necessary
1294
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:07,600
for supporting the struggle
of the pro-independence movement.
1295
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:12,880
Following those 23 murders in 2000,
1296
01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:16,000
elections were held
in the Basque Country in 2001.
1297
01:22:16,080 --> 01:22:22,440
You ran again as a candidate
for Euskal Herritarrok.
1298
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:26,400
The coalition went from 14 seats
to 7 seats in the parliament,
1299
01:22:26,480 --> 01:22:30,160
and I believe they lost
almost nine percentage points in votes.
1300
01:22:30,240 --> 01:22:32,080
I have a question.
1301
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:37,560
I don't know if your decision
to move towards ending the violence was
1302
01:22:37,640 --> 01:22:41,320
about ethics or strategy.
1303
01:22:43,160 --> 01:22:44,120
Both.
1304
01:22:45,480 --> 01:22:50,200
First of all, I had already realized
1305
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:54,560
that we were in the middle
of a repressive… spiral
1306
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:57,240
and the ethical component
wasn't being taken into account.
1307
01:22:57,320 --> 01:23:00,560
It hadn't really been taken into account,
which led to certain outcomes.
1308
01:23:00,640 --> 01:23:02,520
The lack of sensitivity,
1309
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:08,120
the lack of empathy on both sides…
It was reciprocal.
1310
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:09,960
So that was one factor.
1311
01:23:10,480 --> 01:23:12,240
The other factor was
1312
01:23:13,400 --> 01:23:17,800
that in order to move towards
ending the conflict…
1313
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:23,800
It's impossible to move towards
ending the conflict,
1314
01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:26,400
if your strategy is violent confrontation.
1315
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:30,240
I mean, that's entirely contradictory.
1316
01:23:30,320 --> 01:23:33,720
So, on the one hand,
there was the ethical component,
1317
01:23:34,240 --> 01:23:38,840
or the fact that the confrontation
lacked that component.
1318
01:23:38,920 --> 01:23:43,040
And on the other hand,
there was the need to change strategies.
1319
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:47,320
In 2002, the Supreme Court
subpoenaed you to testify
1320
01:23:47,400 --> 01:23:52,560
about the 1987 attack
on the Civil Guard barracks in Zaragoza.
1321
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:55,040
You didn't appear in court.
1322
01:23:55,120 --> 01:23:58,800
You fled Spain and went back into hiding.
1323
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:20,400
While in hiding, you participated
1324
01:24:20,480 --> 01:24:24,200
in the negotiations
between ETA and the Spanish government
1325
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:27,400
that began in June 2005.
1326
01:24:27,480 --> 01:24:30,240
You and the president
of the Socialist Party of Euskadi,
1327
01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:32,840
Jesús Eguiguren, had your first meeting.
1328
01:24:33,440 --> 01:24:36,560
Is it true that one of the first things
you said to him was
1329
01:24:36,640 --> 01:24:38,520
"I've come here to end the violence"?
1330
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,680
"I've come…" That was
one of the things I said to him.
1331
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:49,280
"You and I are going to do whatever we can
to put a stop to this period of violence."
1332
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:52,160
I said that we needed to find
a way to end the conflict,
1333
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:56,000
that we couldn't leave it
in the hands of future generations,
1334
01:24:56,080 --> 01:24:59,960
and that we had to do
everything in our power to end it.
1335
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:03,840
You and Jesús Eguiguren met again
1336
01:25:03,920 --> 01:25:06,920
in Oslo in November 2005.
1337
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:11,400
You left Oslo with the commitment
that there would be a cease fire
1338
01:25:11,480 --> 01:25:16,880
and that ETA would make a public statement
to that effect.
1339
01:25:16,960 --> 01:25:22,680
In September 2006, you met in Switzerland.
1340
01:25:23,240 --> 01:25:29,280
And, this time, Jesús Eguiguren was there
1341
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:34,080
as well as you
and someone else on behalf of ETA,
1342
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:36,560
Xabier López Peña, alias Thierry.
1343
01:25:37,080 --> 01:25:40,320
Was Thierry the leader of ETA at the time?
1344
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:42,160
ETA never had…
1345
01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:47,240
ETA had collective groups,
not individual leaders.
1346
01:25:48,120 --> 01:25:51,320
- No sole leader?
- Not in that sense.
1347
01:25:51,400 --> 01:25:54,960
Was Thierry a member
of ETA's collective leadership?
1348
01:25:55,040 --> 01:25:56,880
Of course, he came in that capacity.
1349
01:25:56,960 --> 01:26:00,440
I have no reason to believe
1350
01:26:00,520 --> 01:26:05,560
that he wasn't attending
on behalf of ETA's leadership.
1351
01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:10,480
Why did Thierry go
to the negotiation in Montreux?
1352
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:16,040
At the time, I think ETA's leadership
wasn't interested in…
1353
01:26:17,600 --> 01:26:21,120
negotiating. Instead, they were
interested in continuity,
1354
01:26:21,200 --> 01:26:25,720
in continuing
the political-military conflict,
1355
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:27,600
the armed conflict.
1356
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:31,400
That's because they weren't satisfied
with the negotiations.
1357
01:26:31,480 --> 01:26:33,160
I thought otherwise.
1358
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,320
And when I saw
1359
01:26:36,400 --> 01:26:42,360
that ETA's leadership disagreed
with what I thought
1360
01:26:42,440 --> 01:26:46,000
and wanted to take a different tack,
I had two options.
1361
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:49,880
One, I could remain a member,
which meant I'd have to follow orders,
1362
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:51,600
or I could go.
1363
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:54,720
And that's what I did.
1364
01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:57,720
- And you completely cut ties.
- Completely.
1365
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:00,680
- You no longer spoke to Eguiguren…
- No one.
1366
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:04,920
I went to a place I already knew.
1367
01:27:05,440 --> 01:27:07,120
- The Pyrenees?
- The Pyrenees.
1368
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:09,440
The department of Ariège.
1369
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:15,320
Between 2007 and 2011, it's true
that a debate arose within ETA
1370
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:18,920
concerning… well, its future,
1371
01:27:19,000 --> 01:27:21,560
where ETA was going.
1372
01:27:21,640 --> 01:27:24,440
Though you were no longer in ETA,
1373
01:27:24,520 --> 01:27:27,320
did you participate
in the internal debate in any way?
1374
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:29,320
No, not at all.
1375
01:27:31,800 --> 01:27:34,400
Still on the topic of ETA
and the surrounding environment,
1376
01:27:34,480 --> 01:27:38,520
during the last two decades,
they felt enormous pressure
1377
01:27:38,600 --> 01:27:41,560
from Spanish law enforcement
1378
01:27:41,640 --> 01:27:44,280
as well as from the courts.
1379
01:27:45,120 --> 01:27:49,840
Different iterations of ETA's leadership
were dismantled one after another.
1380
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:53,240
Long live ETA!
Long live a free Euskal Herria!
1381
01:27:53,840 --> 01:27:59,040
To what extent do you think
the pressure from police drove ETA
1382
01:27:59,120 --> 01:28:03,600
to decide to permanently disarm?
1383
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:09,600
That's part of controlling the narrative.
They call it "controlling the narrative."
1384
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:12,000
Meaning, they felt they needed to sell
1385
01:28:12,080 --> 01:28:14,800
the image of an organization in tatters.
1386
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:17,480
That's the basis of psychological warfare.
1387
01:28:17,560 --> 01:28:20,760
You need to convince your citizens,
both men and women,
1388
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:24,280
that the enemy has been defeated,
that they've lost.
1389
01:28:24,360 --> 01:28:27,720
Apart from psychological warfare,
don't you think ETA felt cornered
1390
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:32,680
by the pressure from its surroundings
and even from within the organization?
1391
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:35,680
I don't think…
It was a matter of being practical.
1392
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:38,920
When two separate States are coming at
you with all their firepower,
1393
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:40,680
especially in this day and age…
1394
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:44,480
Well, that's tough for any organiza--
1395
01:28:45,160 --> 01:28:48,120
any movement, even more so for ETA
1396
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:53,080
since they were in Europe
and had the French and Spanish governments
1397
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:54,400
breathing down their necks.
1398
01:28:54,480 --> 01:28:56,040
And it's also true
1399
01:28:56,120 --> 01:28:58,760
that the organization was
always attuned to
1400
01:28:58,840 --> 01:29:03,880
what the people… had to say.
1401
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:07,720
And at that time,
the people were telling them things
1402
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:15,440
that didn't fit within their framework
of political-military confrontation.
1403
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,960
{\an8}ETA has decided to permanently disarm.
1404
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:23,000
ETA calls upon
the governments of Spain and France
1405
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:25,360
to open a direct line of dialogue
1406
01:29:25,440 --> 01:29:29,160
in order to put an end
to the consequences of the conflict
1407
01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:32,160
and to overcome armed confrontation.
1408
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:35,280
ETA has announced
that it will permanently disarm.
1409
01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:39,640
It is the clearest step towards peace
the terrorist organization has ever taken.
1410
01:29:39,720 --> 01:29:43,720
{\an8}Today we should celebrate
this great victory of democracy.
1411
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:48,720
What did you think about the final message
of permanent disarmament?
1412
01:29:48,800 --> 01:29:51,080
Did you see it as a victory or a defeat?
1413
01:29:52,200 --> 01:29:54,600
- Neither.
- How did you see it?
1414
01:29:54,680 --> 01:30:00,760
I saw it as the necessary step
1415
01:30:00,840 --> 01:30:03,200
given the reality of Euskal Herria.
1416
01:30:04,480 --> 01:30:06,520
Was that message delivered too late?
1417
01:30:07,880 --> 01:30:13,320
Not the message itself.
The decision was made too late.
1418
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:20,360
That decision, the permanent end…
1419
01:30:21,400 --> 01:30:23,480
to armed violence.
1420
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:26,560
When was the right time for that message?
1421
01:30:27,520 --> 01:30:29,320
I thought so in 2005.
1422
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:33,960
We get to May 2018.
1423
01:30:34,040 --> 01:30:35,800
- You personally read…
- Yes.
1424
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:39,760
You read what remains
as ETA's final message.
1425
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:40,680
{\an8}"ETA,
1426
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:45,160
{\an8}the Basque socialist revolutionary
organization for national liberation
1427
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:49,440
hereby informs the Basque people
that its journey has ended."
1428
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:52,000
"As a consequence of this decision,
1429
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:57,360
ETA has completely dismantled
all of its structures."
1430
01:30:57,440 --> 01:31:02,280
"ETA was born from the people, and now
it dissolves back into the people."
1431
01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:04,160
"Long live a free Euskal Herria."
1432
01:31:04,760 --> 01:31:06,880
- You were no longer in ETA.
- No.
1433
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:11,200
Why did you read ETA's final statement?
1434
01:31:11,280 --> 01:31:13,760
I read that statement
1435
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:18,920
because I had a long career
as a member of ETA
1436
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:22,400
and as a member
of the pro-independence left.
1437
01:31:22,480 --> 01:31:25,160
Whether you like it or not,
1438
01:31:25,240 --> 01:31:28,480
the fact that I appeared…
How do you say it?
1439
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:29,680
- Without a mask.
- Yes.
1440
01:31:29,760 --> 01:31:34,680
That had… legal implications.
1441
01:31:35,360 --> 01:31:37,640
- Obviously.
- Why?
1442
01:31:37,720 --> 01:31:39,160
I was reading a statement
1443
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:42,120
from an organization that's considered
a terrorist organization.
1444
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:45,840
In theory, who would do that?
1445
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:49,480
A member of the terrorist organization.
However, that wasn't the case with me.
1446
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:51,880
- That's an odd case.
- Very odd.
1447
01:31:53,120 --> 01:31:54,400
But it's true.
1448
01:32:06,480 --> 01:32:10,080
This year, 2022, you're going to turn 72.
1449
01:32:10,680 --> 01:32:15,120
For decades, you encountered
death up close.
1450
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:18,320
- Are you afraid of it?
- Not at all. That's life.
1451
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:28,360
Do you think
when the time comes for you to face death,
1452
01:32:28,440 --> 01:32:31,480
you might look back and have regrets?
1453
01:32:33,200 --> 01:32:35,480
Regrets? I think…
1454
01:32:36,880 --> 01:32:38,760
like any human being,
1455
01:32:40,080 --> 01:32:42,560
maybe I'd regret a few things.
1456
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:44,360
For example, I'd regret…
1457
01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:46,840
that…
1458
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:51,120
I hadn't done a lot more
1459
01:32:52,000 --> 01:32:56,520
in order to…
1460
01:32:57,280 --> 01:33:01,520
to stop that crazy wheel,
that spiral of violence, much earlier.
1461
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:04,120
I'd regret that because I didn't…
1462
01:33:05,360 --> 01:33:09,600
I mean, maybe I could've done
much more to end that earlier.
1463
01:33:10,440 --> 01:33:14,080
In this conversation,
you told us something we didn't know.
1464
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:17,520
You revealed a lot, but there was
a very specific thing we didn't know.
1465
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:23,480
You were involved in the 1976 murder
of the mayor of Galdakao.
1466
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:28,480
We didn't know that,
and you were never tried for that.
1467
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:31,840
Do you still feel responsible
for that murder?
1468
01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:32,920
Obviously.
1469
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:35,920
Yes, I own the fact
that I did what I was asked to do
1470
01:33:36,000 --> 01:33:38,720
as a member of ETA at the time.
1471
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:41,560
So you claim personal responsibility
1472
01:33:42,240 --> 01:33:46,120
for the deaths caused
not only by your cell but also--
1473
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:48,320
No, I own my own actions.
1474
01:33:49,280 --> 01:33:51,720
Let's be clear. What I did.
1475
01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:58,280
I own what I did
as a member of the organization.
1476
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:04,120
Don't put words in my mouth.
1477
01:34:05,360 --> 01:34:09,520
I'd like to say the mayor's name.
1478
01:34:09,600 --> 01:34:11,760
It was Víctor Legorburu.
1479
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:14,200
And his bodyguard was
1480
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:18,400
a local police officer,
1481
01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:21,120
Francisco Ruiz Sánchez.
1482
01:34:21,200 --> 01:34:24,520
He was hit in the legs
by machine gun fire.
1483
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:29,800
And he wrote a book about that experience,
1484
01:34:29,880 --> 01:34:32,800
which was quite traumatic for him.
1485
01:34:32,880 --> 01:34:38,160
It was also traumatic for him
to see how his neighbors shunned him.
1486
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:43,440
People would cross to the other side
of the street to avoid him in town.
1487
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:47,200
He says that it was
almost as if people were angry
1488
01:34:47,280 --> 01:34:51,520
that he survived that attack.
1489
01:34:51,600 --> 01:34:58,160
If the mayor's family is watching this,
what would you say to them?
1490
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:04,680
Well, I'd say what I've said before.
1491
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:06,440
My deepest sympathy.
1492
01:35:11,120 --> 01:35:13,000
What about Mr. Francisco Ruiz Sánchez?
1493
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:15,800
- The man that was wounded.
- I'd say the same thing.
1494
01:35:22,440 --> 01:35:24,080
Let me tell you something.
1495
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:26,280
No one enjoys killing.
1496
01:35:27,240 --> 01:35:28,440
No one.
1497
01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:32,040
Obviously not the person who's dead
or their family.
1498
01:35:32,880 --> 01:35:35,680
But neither does the person who did it.
1499
01:35:36,720 --> 01:35:39,320
That is and always will be
1500
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:43,320
a burden which that person, man or woman,
1501
01:35:44,000 --> 01:35:46,160
will carry for the rest of their life.
1502
01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:49,720
Do you carry it?
1503
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:53,240
Obviously, and I'll say it
for the third time
1504
01:35:53,320 --> 01:35:54,440
because I own
1505
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:58,800
the responsibilities of my actions.
1506
01:35:58,880 --> 01:36:02,000
Therefore, I obviously carry that burden.
1507
01:36:02,080 --> 01:36:03,960
What's that burden like?
1508
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:07,440
Well, it's a burden that entails…
1509
01:36:08,560 --> 01:36:12,760
a ton of things related to
what one has done in their life.
1510
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:16,280
Is it heavy?
1511
01:36:16,360 --> 01:36:17,400
Very.
1512
01:36:21,440 --> 01:36:24,000
Mr. Urrutikoetxea, was it all worth it?
1513
01:36:26,200 --> 01:36:27,160
Look,
1514
01:36:29,320 --> 01:36:32,800
if you're asking me
whether my life has meant something,
1515
01:36:32,880 --> 01:36:36,320
because that's related to your question,
1516
01:36:38,560 --> 01:36:40,880
I'd say that for 50 years…
1517
01:36:42,560 --> 01:36:46,520
I participated in the struggles
of the Basque people.
1518
01:36:47,120 --> 01:36:50,040
There were victories…
Many victories and mistakes.
1519
01:36:51,280 --> 01:36:52,680
And…
1520
01:36:54,760 --> 01:36:57,160
it would be a shame for anyone
1521
01:36:57,880 --> 01:37:02,480
to say their life meant nothing
after 50 years of fighting.
1522
01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:06,520
I'd call that a tragedy.
1523
01:37:09,320 --> 01:37:10,760
I participated…
1524
01:37:12,360 --> 01:37:15,720
and was true
to my beliefs from the very beginning.
1525
01:37:18,080 --> 01:37:24,000
And up until the very end,
I tried to live my life as a member
1526
01:37:25,280 --> 01:37:27,480
to the best of my ability.
1527
01:37:28,880 --> 01:37:29,960
Period.
1528
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:11,880
I didn't expect any of this.
1529
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:13,880
Jordi.
1530
01:38:15,040 --> 01:38:16,680
The thing is…
1531
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:23,720
I just learned something new.
1532
01:38:25,440 --> 01:38:27,000
I never would've thought
1533
01:38:27,080 --> 01:38:31,600
that Josu Ternera was involved
in that murder, Jordi.
1534
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:33,480
I never would've thought that.
1535
01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:37,840
That's why it's worth saying
that there are 330 cases,
1536
01:38:37,920 --> 01:38:41,320
whose perpetrators remain unknown.
1537
01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:45,240
We'd like to know
who the perpetrators were.
1538
01:38:45,320 --> 01:38:48,640
As much as I was pleasantly surprised
1539
01:38:48,720 --> 01:38:51,480
by the interview
that you conducted with this…
1540
01:38:52,680 --> 01:38:54,480
I was going to say "murderer."
1541
01:38:56,080 --> 01:38:58,400
We would've liked…
1542
01:38:58,480 --> 01:39:04,600
We'd like other people
to testify in court.
1543
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:11,240
That way we could live in peace
and finally forget all of this.
1544
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:14,160
Regarding your attack,
1545
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:20,120
Josu Urrutikoetxea said
that he expresses his "deepest sympathy."
1546
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:25,160
I don't think so.
1547
01:39:28,160 --> 01:39:30,040
I don't think so.
1548
01:39:30,840 --> 01:39:32,280
He could've said…
1549
01:39:33,400 --> 01:39:34,880
He could've told you
1550
01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:37,760
that he regrets what he did.
1551
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:42,800
Sure, he carries his burden around.
1552
01:39:43,320 --> 01:39:46,640
But he thought
he was fighting for something,
1553
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:50,880
to defend the Basque Country
for whatever reason,
1554
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:54,600
so they could be independent
and form their own nation.
1555
01:39:55,240 --> 01:39:58,400
But he doesn't regret what he did.
1556
01:39:58,480 --> 01:40:02,640
If Josu Urrutikoetxea were here now,
what would you say to him?
1557
01:40:03,600 --> 01:40:06,840
I'd tell him to apologize to me.
1558
01:40:09,400 --> 01:40:11,240
If he asks me for forgiveness
1559
01:40:11,320 --> 01:40:14,240
and acknowledges
all the crimes he committed,
1560
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:17,960
I'm a peaceful man.
1561
01:40:18,040 --> 01:40:19,800
All I want is peace.
1562
01:40:19,880 --> 01:40:24,320
So we can forget about that hate
and terror we experienced for 60 years.
1563
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:28,760
I don't know
1564
01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:33,920
if we'd end up shaking hands
to put this whole thing behind us.
1565
01:40:34,440 --> 01:40:37,000
But I don't think that day will ever come.
1566
01:40:56,720 --> 01:41:00,160
After operating for nearly 60 years,
ETA disbanded in 2018.
1567
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:02,080
The organization never achieved
1568
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:04,640
any of the goals
upon which it was founded.
1569
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,840
In 2021, the Basque
pro-independence left acknowledged
1570
01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:11,640
that the pain that ETA's victims suffered
"never should have happened."
1571
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:17,960
As of the completion
of this documentary in September 2023,
1572
01:41:18,040 --> 01:41:21,280
166 ETA members remain incarcerated
in France and Spain.
1573
01:41:21,360 --> 01:41:24,600
In 2011, ETA announced
that it would permanently disarm,
1574
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:28,360
and the organization has never committed
another act of terror.
1575
01:41:28,440 --> 01:41:32,240
ETA is the only terrorist organization
in Europe to have done so.
1576
01:41:35,320 --> 01:41:39,320
Francisco Ruiz is retired and lives
in a town in Ciudad Real, Spain.
1577
01:41:39,400 --> 01:41:42,320
Josu Urrutikoetxea is on parole
in southern France
1578
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:46,440
and awaiting extradition to Spain.
1579
01:42:20,080 --> 01:42:25,040
Subtitle translation by: Tom Sullivan