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[somber music building]
From 1968 to 2010,
the terrorist organization ETA murdered 852 people and wounded 2,661 others.
Source: Spanish Ministry of the Interior.
ETA was founded in 1959, during Francisco Franco's dictatorship,
to fight for the independence of the Basque Country.
Following Franco's death in 1975, ETA became increasingly violent.
The organization committed more than 90% of its murders
after the transition to democracy.
The Spanish state as well as far-right and parapolice groups waged
an illicit war against ETA in which 73 people were killed.
Source: Basque government.
- [breeze blowing] - [birds chirping]
Francisco Ruiz and Josu Urrutikoetxea do not know each other
and have only crossed paths once.
This is part of their story.
[man] I moved to Euskadi because…
Well, I am one of those kids born in the aftermath
of the Spanish Civil War.
I moved to Euskadi when I was three.
Then later on, at seventeen, I became a licensed plumber.
And that was until I was 28 or 29 years old,
when I moved to Ciudad Real.
I built my life there.
That was where I got married, and that was where raised four daughters.
And to be honest, I really… Well the truth is
I've always really loved Euskadi.
So I have fond memories of that land.
[music fading]
I finished my military service.
Galdakao, where I lived, posted three police officer jobs,
which required a public service exam.
And, well, I didn't particularly want to be a police officer.
It wasn't something I had ever thought about.
But the truth is that I realized I had to bring home a salary
because, by that point, I already had four daughters.
So I had to bring in money.
[Jordi] Francisco, what happened on the 9th of February 1976?
Well, on that day, the 9th of February in '76, I was on duty.
I started at 6:00 a.m.
In addition to our regular duties as officers, as local police officers,
we also had to work for the mayor, as bodyguards.
The mayor always went out at 8:00 a.m. sharp.
And on that day, it was my responsibility, as the senior officer,
to wait for the mayor outside his house, by his door.
And to walk him to his car.
It was about 500 meters down the road.
He always came out at the same time, of course,
and we always walked down the same street.
And then, twenty meters from his doorstep, from where the mayor lived,
an ETA cell ambushed us.
They jumped out with handguns and machine guns.
And, well, they riddled us with bullets.
They shot the mayor. I think it was five or six times.
They killed the mayor right then and there, on the spot.
I was shot in the chest several times,
I got some bullets in my stomach too.
But I did have a moment to react,
and I threw myself down between two parked cars.
So that, well, that saved my life.
But as the terrorists were fleeing,
they aimed a machine gun at me and fired more rounds.
And so then I got six more bullets in my body,
from the waist down.
But, hey…
I was alive. I was alive at that moment.
I didn't lose consciousness.
So what I did was… Because I was a Catholic,
not much of a churchgoer, but I was a Catholic,
I asked the Virgin Mary, I prayed to her…
[exhales]
…so that she would spare my life…
to raise my daughters.
And, eventually, I passed out.
They told me…
People were scared.
Because the whole time I was lying there, no one came to help.
And it was the town's main street.
It was 8:00 a.m., when everyone's leaving for work.
Later on, they called my wife. And she…
Well, she feared the worst.
My wife was speechless.
In that moment, my wife had no words.
And then a police car came to pick her up
and took her to the hospital where I was.
I was in the operating room,
and they told her that they wouldn't bet a cent on my survival.
Because of all the bullets in my body.
But I think that prayer I said worked.
The Lady up there helped me.
We were there for a total of five months. Five months.
I spent five months in the hospital.
Then they discharged me, and I went home.
But I went home in a wheelchair.
And the first time I went out, I noticed that there was…
I felt a lot of judgement directed toward me.
People were staying away.
I noticed that people who I knew would cross the road to avoid me.
There was already a lot of fear in the Basque Country.
They were scared to be seen with a victim of terrorism
by an abertzale, a Basque nationalist.
And, honestly, that hurt me very deeply.
It was as painful as the actual attack.
To be cast out of that community
where I'd lived since I was three years old,
well, since I was six, when I moved to Galdakao.
I lived in that town. Everybody knew me.
So, to be rejected for being a victim,
that was a terrible blow for me.
When my wife went out to the shops to get groceries,
when she went to the butcher's,
well, he would have no problem just speaking his mind.
With the shop full of people he'd say,
"They should have killed that fascist a long time ago."
"And screw that police officer for protecting him."
When my wife came home, I would see the tears in her eyes.
So I had to make a choice. I talked to my family,
and we decided to leave the Basque Country.
As if we were… I don't know.
Like exiles.
We had to leave that area.
Have you felt hatred
towards the people that carried out the attack on you and the mayor?
Have I felt hatred? Of course, I have.
I've felt hatred, just like I felt fear in those days.
[Jordi] The investigation into your attack was never resolved.
Some of the members
of the terrorist organization ETA who attacked you could not be identified,
and then others were pardoned in 1977.
We have put together a documentary that is based around a conversation,
an interview with an historic ETA member, whose name is Josu Urrutikoetxea.
I don't know if you…
Yes. Josu Ternera.
Coincidentally, he actually gave us new information relating to your attack.
And you, at least, deserve to know this information.
Wow. This is the first I've heard
about an ETA terrorist sharing details about that day.
I don't know if you'd like to see the footage, or if you'd rather not--
Of course! Of course I want to see it.
It's been a long time. I'd like to hear
something I don't already know about the attack.
Well, then, I'd like you to watch.
Okay.
[sighs]
[birds chirping]
[indistinct background chatter]
[coughs]
[Jordi] I know you don't like to be called Ternera,
but when talking to people who know you,
former associates and former members of ETA,
they call you that.
Why the nickname?
Well, it happened over drinks at a bar in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
There was someone-- I know who they are, but I'm not going to tell you.
And they said, "Shit, you reacted like a calf,"
which in Spanish is "ternera."
So what happened next?
Soon afterwards,
one of the people there that night went on to be arrested
in the Southern Basque Country…
and was tortured.
And this person repeated what they heard that night.
"Yes, in this bar, on such and such date, so-and-so and so-and-so were there,
and this other guy… and among them,
a guy who they called 'Ternera'."
And they said, "Who, him?"
They showed the guy a photo, and he said, "Yes, that's him."
And then that's what was written on the summons documents.
That's where the nickname first appeared.
- [Jordi] Josu Ternera. - Yes.
[multiple voices in Spanish] Josu Ternera, Josu Ternera…
[tense music playing]
[reporter] Admiral Carrero Blanco, president of Spain, has been assassinated.
He was attacked by terrorists.
[tense music continues]
ETA'S MILITARY ARM RESTRUCTURES AND MAKES URRUTIKOETXEA NUMBER TWO
[sirens blaring]
"JOSU TERNERA" NOW TOP ETA LEADER, DIRECTLY CONTROLS MILITARY
ETA'S MOST POWERFUL LEADER EVER
[in French] José Antonio Urrutikoetxea has been arrested.
[in French] José Antonio Urrutikoetxea,
alias Josu Ternera, is considered to be ETA's number one.
NO EXTRADITIONS
FREE JOSU!
[sirens blaring]
Today, French authorities handed over Josu Ternera, a top-member of ETA,
to Spanish police.
He is suspected of leading ETA's international arm.
You sons of bitches!
[chanting] Murderers! Murderers…
[chanting] Enough is enough! Enough is enough…
Josu Ternera was released from prison today.
[chanting in Basque] Long live ETA's military arm!
[in Spanish] Obtaining a legislative seat is always better
than obtaining a handgun and using it.
That's always better.
As painful as it is, I think he has the right to do it.
Josu Ternera, tell your former comrades
to let us, the people, enact our own revolution,
our own changes at the polls.
[music fading]
[bell tolling]
NO TO ETA - THAT'S ENOUGH
[music building]
The Batasuna member of Parliament
and ETA's former number one, Josu Ternera, is at large.
We do not know the whereabouts of Mr. Urrutikoetxea.
I have no information and no clue
if we'll learn where he is.
The Government will begin talks with ETA.
What was Josu Ternera's advantage? He knew the importance of Parliament.
[explosion]
ETA has decided to permanently disarm.
FORWARD ON BOTH FRONTS
[reporter] It's the end of the road according to a key figure, Josu Ternera.
"ETA was born from the people,
and now it dissolves back into the people."
[reporter 2] These are the first images of Josu Ternera
in custody after 17 years on the run.
Josu Ternera has been arrested. He was ETA's last top member.
…congratulate you on arresting José Antonio Urrutikoetxea Bengoetxea,
Josu Ternera.
[Isabel Celáa] Today, the Cabinet has requested that France extradite
the ETA member Josu Ternera.
[reporter 3] A French judge acquitted the ETA member Josu Ternera
of the charge of membership in ETA between 2011 and 2013.
He has another trial pending in France
and will then be extradited to Spain to stand trial for the attack
on the Civil Guard barracks in Zaragoza
and for financing ETA through pubs run by sympathizers.
FACE TO FACE WITH ETA: CONVERSATIONS WITH A TERRORIST
"I have been, am now, and will always be a member of ETA, and I'm proud of it."
That's what you said to a court in Paris.
Yes. I was a member of ETA, obviously.
[Jordi] Are you proud of it?
I was an ETA member.
The circumstances when I said that at the time, in the '90s,
are completely different from the circumstances when I joined,
and from the situation now.
By no means do I deny that it was me who said that.
You were one of the most noteworthy members of ETA,
one of the longest sitting in the history of that terrorist organization.
You joined shortly after it was founded.
You were involved in almost all of ETA's key moments.
You've spent 12 years in prison, over 20 years in hiding,
and you announced the disbandment of the organization in 2018.
In total, it's been almost 50 years.
Was ETA your life?
ETA is part of my life. There's no doubt.
As you just said,
[clears throat]
I joined ETA as a volunteer, when I was 17 years old.
I'm 71 now, going on 72.
So in one way or another, well, obviously there's a relationship.
Although, I must clarify, ETA has disappeared.
What do you expect from this interview?
My expectation for this interview is that…
Up until today, other people have spoken for me.
Not only spoken, but written books.
And for a number of reasons,
I haven't had many opportunities to express myself.
We're in France. I don't know if we can say specifically where.
I don't mind, but we're not in France.
With all due respect,
you can think, and you do think in fact, that we're in France. Okay?
But I don't think we're in France.
It's known as the French Basque Country,
but for me, it's Euskal Herria,
that is, the Northern Basque Country.
Therefore, I'll continue this conversation… on those terms.
I'm going to, of course, respect the language you use.
I do think we're in France. At least, legally, we're in France.
We're in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
For many people in Spain, your name is synonymous with terrorism
as well as with brutality and cruelty.
And, at the same time, all the people who took part in the peace process
that ended the terrorist organization ETA,
also people from the Spanish government,
consider you to be a key player in reaching the end of that violence.
And?
How do you reconcile those two sides?
Mine is not the only case.
But they…
they made an example out of me.
That's where the narrative comes into play,
from their point of view, the narrative of winners and losers.
For them, there's only one narrative. And I am cast as one of the villains.
A character stripped of everything that makes a person human.
I was dehumanized.
They talk about me as if,
as if I had horns coming out of my head and a forked tongue,
or as if we were bloodthirsty creatures.
I am a person just like any other.
I had and I have political, social, and cultural beliefs.
I have a family, like any other person.
Obviously, I was a member of ETA.
And, obviously, I've been judged and sentenced for it
by the French government.
But not by the Spanish government.
And most of my work
as an ETA member
has been paving the way for the resolution of this conflict.
And, thus, to stop the conflict
and move forward, to turn the page using political negotiation.
[in Spanish] The Government will begin talks with ETA
and will not waver in its stance
that political matters shall only be resolved
by those who legitimately represent
the will
of the people.
[Jordi] Let's start at the end, in the year 2005.
Zapatero's socialist government begins talks to try to end the violence,
and you are in charge of negotiating on ETA's behalf.
Were you the leader of ETA at that time?
Absolutely not.
During the years from 2002 to 2006,
I had one job and one job only,
which was solely and exclusively to work on political relationships.
In addition to that, to work on directing
or to try and direct the situation towards a resolution,
to overcome the conflict through negotiation.
You weren't their leader.
- But you negotiated in ETA's name. - Yes.
You always talked to Jesús Eguiguren,
who, at the time, was the president of the Socialist Party in Euskadi.
Yes, exactly.
[Jordi] I was quite surprised
that the persona of Josu Urrutikoetxea, or Josu Ternera, barely got any attention
compared to the other parties in the negotiation.
You were a very active participant in the talks,
so for you not to receive more of the attention…
I ask you, please, not to call me that.
Call me Josu Urrutikoetxea. That's fine.
But not Josu Ternera. Because, for me…
- That's what I've been doing. - [Josu] Yes, but--
I said Ternera just now. I was talking about how other people refer to you.
- [Josu] Okay. Right. - That's not how I'll address you.
[Josu] Right.
Well,
I don't know because I'm not involved in the hierarchies of the separatist left.
They did what they thought was best at that time,
so that's what they did.
In June 2005, while you were holding negotiations,
there was a victimless ETA attack on La Peineta stadium in Madrid.
- [Josu] Yes. - How did you feel? Any comments?
I was troubled, obviously.
What do you mean by "troubled"?
It affected me. Well, I don't know.
I-- I heard the operation had happened and…
Well, it would've been better if it hadn't happened.
Because maybe it would have been more--
It would have laid the groundwork better for an agreement.
Additionally,
during that first phase of the negotiations,
there was a jihadist attack in London on the 7th of July.
That attack resulted in
more than 50 people being killed in that city.
What was that experience like for you?
Well, I think that type of…
That type of operation could be described as senseless violence.
That is, that it's totally meaningless.
But I'm not going to get into that.
I don't know what goes on in the minds of those jihadist organizations.
I don't share their beliefs,
which are basically based on the idea
that any citizen, man or woman, who has voted for a particular government,
whether in Paris or London,
is a collaborator and is accountable
for the actions
that these different governments have carried out
in Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, or Pakistan.
That's what I think. I don't agree with senseless violence.
But did you see those attacks and think, "This is reprehensible"?
I'll repeat what I just said.
That doesn't fit, at all, with my way of thinking.
I don't understand it.
As much as they try to justify--
And I'm talking here about religious extremists.
When they say that any citizen is a justifiable victim,
I think that's absolutely insane.
That's the religious extremists' opinion.
Let me ask you, what's the difference between
killing for your God and killing for your homeland?
Killing… To me…
I don't think…
Not you nor anyone else…
has ever heard me say that killing is good.
Never.
- [birds chirping] - [sheep bleating]
[breeze blowing]
[Josu] I come from a humble, working-class family.
Both my mother and my father came from a farming background.
Ours was a very traditional Catholic family.
Since I was a kid I was practically forced to--
Well the usual, to go to mass on Sundays.
It's kind of… That's the expectation.
They were religious, and they thought their family should think like them.
Were you a believer?
What would you call a believer? We were basically forced to repeat things.
I'm a believer, but I don't believe in God.
Since the beginning, humans have believed in something.
Your beliefs are one thing. Your religion is another.
What do you believe in?
I believe in my surroundings, in what I see, in nature…
[clears throat]
…and in human beings.
You learned the ten commandments, I'm sure.
I had to. I went to a religious school.
Have you broken many of those commandments by being an ETA member?
By being a member?
If I wasn't religious when I was in the ETA,
I didn't break any rules. I don't believe that's possible.
The seventh commandment, "Thou shalt not steal."
Now that you mention it,
I didn't even know the seventh commandment was "don't steal."
And?
Have you broken it or not?
What's that got to do with it? I've broken it, obviously.
- And "Thou shalt not kill"? - I didn't break it.
How'd you find out about ETA?
ETA, during the time of its inception,
[clears throat]
at the end of the '50s…
It was sometimes big news, and it was in the papers.
That's how we heard about it.
So there was that and, of course, what we heard at home.
Is that how you heard about it?
Like, "So-and-so from the village has joined ETA" or…?
Yes, obviously. Things like that were said.
Then I realized that the only way…
the only valid way that existed
to stand up to the system that was oppressing us,
that didn't even let us breathe,
was something recently started.
And that was ETA.
At that moment in time,
I was 17 years old. Somebody from my circle of friends said,
"Look, I'm in ETA. Do you want to join ETA?" And I said yes.
CIVIL GUARD - POLICE CHECKPOINT
[menacing ambient music playing]
CIVIL GUARD TRAFFIC OFFICER SHOT TO DEATH
ONE ASSAILANT WAS KILLED BY THE CIVIL GUARD
[music fading]
You joined ETA in the year 1968,
and shortly thereafter
came the first fatality from an ETA attack,
which was police officer José Pardines.
During that time,
did you think that killing was a line that should not be crossed?
No, because a very significant aspect of the Basque people, men and women,
was to stand up to the system that was oppressing us.
So we needed to use any means necessary.
So, well…
Violence included.
Any means necessary.
That wasn't just what ETA thought, or what I thought.
It's what many, many people thought.
Shortly after the death of Officer Pardines,
the first member of ETA also died.
He was the person who had killed Pardines, Txabi Etxebarrieta.
So, when you saw that happen to a fellow ETA member,
did you consider giving up your own life too, for your homeland?
The moment you join ETA,
you know the consequences. And there will be consequences.
So dying is a real possibility.
[Jordi] For your country.
For certain ideas, yes.
Did you receive military training from ETA?
Yes.
[Jordi] What did it consist of?
Well, back then, not much.
Not much, because in those days,
and I'm referring to the early days after its inception,
ETA was divided into four fronts.
The political front, the military front,
the workers' front, and the cultural front.
Military training wasn't necessary for us at that time
because we weren't part of the military front.
There was basic instruction, which consisted of making, uh,
improvised explosives,
Molotov cocktails,
the basic mechanics and use of explosives,
and also the operation and use of handguns.
So they taught you how to shoot?
If you can call that teaching.
It was more just showing us how a gun works.
We were part of the cultural front, so we learned how to use a firearm.
You took one or two shots, and that was that.
[menacing ambient music playing]
[music fades]
[Jordi] When did they give you your first gun?
The first weapon I touched, not that they gave me but that I touched,
I must have been…
eighteen or nineteen years old.
And it was just to see how it worked.
After that, the first weapon I owned,
it was…
It must have been back in 1971, and ETA didn't give me my first weapon.
And when I fled and went into exile
in Euskal Herria, in the Northern Basque Country,
in Iparralde,
I was in the political front.
In those days, only people in the military front carried weapons.
So I knew I was at risk.
Because I was crossing the border illegally
to do my political work.
And I stress, "political,"
in the Southern Basque Country.
Because of that, I bought a gun.
I bought a gun off of a smuggler,
a Basque smuggler who sold me a gun made in Bayonne.
MAB, that was the brand.
- [Jordi] MAP? - MAB. M-A-B.
Manufacturer d'armes de Bayonne, in French.
Gun Manufacturers of Bayonne.
A 7.65 caliber. It cost me 500 francs.
Because the organization's weapons were meant exclusively
for the members of the military front.
How many times did you use a weapon?
- In my life? - [Jordi] Mm-hmm.
Well… sometimes.
But the times that I have used one,
it's always been in self-defense.
Were you a member of any cells?
Yes.
[Jordi] Which ones?
Well, one was…
- [Jordi] Just one? - No…
Well, at several different points in time, you know? Yes.
What was your cell's name?
It didn't have a name.
Some cells had a name, or they were given names later.
[Jordi] Where were they based?
Well, one of them was a traveling operation.
Another was in Vizcaya.
And what year was this?
The '70s.
Did you take part in any attacks with fatalities?
Yes.
[Jordi] Can you tell us which ones?
Well, yes, I can tell you.
Not directly,
but indirectly.
I wasn't part of the actual cell,
but I helped with the planning for the Carrero Blanco attack.
And, uh…
And another operation, the mayor of Galdakao.
[Jordi] ETA assassinated him?
ETA killed him and claimed it, obviously.
MAYOR OF GALDAKAO MURDERED WHEN HE LEFT HIS HOUSE YESTERDAY MORNING
[Jordi] The fact that you participated in the attack on Carrero Blanco is
a story that's already well known.
But we had no idea about your involvement in the murder of the mayor of Galdakao.
What role did you play in that particular attack?
The one I had to play.
[Jordi] And that was?
Whatever it was.
I was involved with that cell to carry out an operation,
which would result in a person being killed.
[Jordi] Were you responsible for the shooting?
No.
Would you have pulled the trigger, if you were?
At the time, yes.
[Jordi] I think the attack on the mayor of Galdakao was in 1976.
Franco was already dead.
[Josu] I don't know exactly, but yes. I don't know exactly, but that sounds…
The system, as we've always said,
the fascist government had not made even the smallest steps
towards what would later be called…
Uh, it was called…
the reform.
So we pressured the government.
ETA put out not one, but several statements…
And these statements said that they needed to resign from office
or they would be considered accomplices to the system.
That was the threat--
It wasn't a threat. It was an analysis of the political situation.
As unelected representatives, they were participating
in the repression and the suffering of the Basque people.
I see that as a threat.
You can see it how you want,
but that's how it was.
And they all knew about it.
They were so well-informed that many of them had bodyguards.
- They had bodyguards? - Yes.
- [Jordi] And the mayor of Galdakao? - Yes.
- [Jordi] Did he have a bodyguard? - Yes.
[Jordi] The other fatal attack which you've admitted to participating in
is the murder of the president of the Francoist government,
Luis Carrero Blanco, in the year 1973.
OGRO (GILLO PONTECORVO, 1979)
[officer 1, over radio] Ask if anything has happened to the president.
[officer 2] The officers in the other car have been injured,
and we are trying to locate the president's car.
[officer 3] It looks like the car on the roof is the president's.
- It looks like he's dead. - [sirens blaring]
[tense ambient music playing]
TERRORISTS IDENTIFIED, PART OF SO-CALLED "MILITARY FRONT"
[Jordi] In January 1972,
three tons of explosives were stolen from the munitions depot in Hernani.
They would later be used in that attack. Were you involved in the robbery?
Yes.
And later, were you involved in the attack on Luis Carrero Blanco?
Not directly because I wasn't part of the so-called… Txikia Cell.
But I was involved
in certain preparatory phases and planning aspects
for the operation against Carrero Blanco.
[Jordi] Specifically?
Well, I just told you.
The robbery?
Obviously.
Anything else?
Well, technical stuff,
such as transporting material or other technical details.
That operation wasn't supposed to turn out the way it did.
Before Carrero Blanco was named president,
ETA's intention with that operation was to kidnap him.
So we could negotiate for the freedom of political prisoners, men and women.
What happened next?
When everything was ready, all the information prepared and reviewed,
and the logistics in place,
Carrero Blanco was unexpectedly named president.
And that meant
we would be encountering much tighter security details.
So the cell that was in charge of this specific operation,
the one to kidnap him…
Well they had to adapt. They had to conform their plans.
You were already settled
in the French Basque Country in the early '70s.
And there, an attempt was made on your life
by the extreme right-wing group Batallón Vasco Español,
Basque Country Battalion.
I think it was June 1975.
- Do you remember what happened? - Yes.
I remember that day vividly.
At the time, my wife was in the kitchen.
I was sitting in the bed, writing, instead of at the table.
And my eldest son, who was about a year old, just over a year,
was lying on the bed, next to me.
And my daughter, who had just been born, was in a room
that faced the side of the house where my car was parked.
I went immediately to the room where the explosion came from,
the room where my youngest daughter was lying in her crib.
And, well, it was covered in shards of glass. Debris was everywhere.
She was lucky that nothing happened to her.
Well, she did have ruptured eardrums, but nothing more serious than that.
Although that was serious enough.
She was saved because the bed was higher than the crib,
and all the glass from the explosion swept over her.
So after that,
we went out through the back door because the entrance was on fire.
And when we got outside, I saw that the car was on fire.
It was wrecked, and next to it there was a body.
Who was it?
It was the body of one of the members of the organization who planted the bomb.
He had planted the bomb with the intention of detonating it the next day,
when I'd be taking the car with my family.
How did you feel when you realized
one of your children could've died in that attack?
Well, we could have all died.
What did I feel? Well…
that they were victims of…
in this case… They would have been victims of… or they were…
They would have been, and they were, obviously,
victims of an attack by the Spanish government.
Did it cause you to have second thoughts about the bombs ETA would later place,
that would put other people in the same situation your family was in?
Obviously. I mean…
Armed violence…
for me,
and-- and for ETA,
armed violence has never been a goal, in and of itself.
Never.
But decades and decades of armed violence
have produced countless victims on both sides.
Permanent victims, I mean, victims with irreversible damage.
And I think
that those victims…
should be acknowledged.
And the confrontation, the conflict…
Well, it has resulted in us…
basically forgetting,
basically losing sight of the-- the intentions behind it all.
They've been obscured by…
by the twisted consequences of this spiral of violence,
committed by both sides,
that just increased and increased.
And that spiral of violence has driven all of us,
men and women,
on both sides, to become mutually…
to become mutually numb to other people's suffering,
to their pain and suffering.
Did that happen to you?
Obviously.
But that was more in the aftermath, I think.
Because in that moment,
when you're in the middle of that violence…
somehow it…
it somehow prevents you…
from considering the ethical aspects, from being compassionate to others,
to your opponent's suffering.
And I'm talking about both sides.
I mean, there's no empathy for the other person's suffering.
There's no effort to put yourself in their shoes.
And the other side doesn't consider that either.
Have you ever celebrated someone's death?
Absolutely not. Never.
Some members of ETA have admitted celebrating attacks.
Have you ever celebrated an attack?
No. No.
The only death I've ever celebrated--
I'm not sure about Carrero Blanco, maybe.
Definitely Franco.
[in Spanish] My fellow Spaniards,
Franco… has died.
[eerie ambient music playing]
[Jordi] Franco's death did not satisfy ETA's pursuit of their objectives.
Quite the opposite, if we take the numbers into account.
In 1979, 80 deaths.
In 1980, 98 deaths.
Almost two people killed a week.
What did you want to achieve with all these murders?
What ETA wanted to do, wanted to "achieve,"
to use your words,
at that time, was to bring the Spanish government to the table
in order to initiate conversations.
That would allow the conflict to be resolved through negotiation.
So you used dead bodies to pressure the Government to negotiate.
Obviously, to destabilize the Government
so that they would consider us and think,
"Well, in order to prevent more deaths from happening,
let's see what it is…
what it is that these people really want,
these people causing these deaths."
"What is it that they want?"
"Let's go knock on their door."
Weren't you troubled by the fact
that the organization you were part of had killed 98 people in one year?
I'm telling you, it's not about being troubled.
And, I'm telling you--
[Jordi] I'm using the same word
you used to describe the attack on La Peineta.
[Josu] I've always thought those deaths could've been avoided.
[tense ambient humming]
[Jordi] Were you friends with Yoyes?
[Josu] I don't know if you could say we were friends, but, yes, I knew her.
María Dolores González Catarain, Yoyes,
she was the first woman to lead ETA.
She ended up leaving the organization in 1979,
and fled to Mexico.
According to her friend,
you and others went to say goodbye before she fled to Mexico. Is that true?
Yes, along with others who also went,
I saw her.
Not only then.
I was with Yoyes in Mexico too.
[Jordi] When was that?
I don't remember exactly, but when she was in Mexico.
When she was an exile in Mexico?
- Yes. - [Jordi] After she had left ETA.
Yeah.
So even though Yoyes had left the group,
you went to Mexico and met with her.
Of course. We had lunch, dinner, went for walks…
Yes.
ETA assassinated Yoyes
on the 10th of September 1986,
in the main square of her town, while she was with her son.
She was 32 years old.
[somber music swelling]
YOYES TRAITOR
YOYES SNITCH
[Jordi] How did you feel when Yoyes was killed?
[music fades]
It was different, it was--
I don't know. It's very hard to express how I felt at that time. Very hard.
I…
I felt, and I feel, deep sorrow
because, as I've already said,
I knew her, and we had a relationship, well sort of.
[clears throat]
But at that time…
ETA's leadership at the time
considered
uh, that…
the choice that Yoyes had made
by getting in touch with the officials of the Spanish Ministry of the Interior…
Well, it's obvious that when she decided to negotiate an agreement
or make a deal with the enemy about a number of things,
it meant that she became part of a divisive policy of reintegration,
put forward by the government,
the government of Felipe González.
Crossing a line, so to speak,
contacting someone from the Ministry of the Interior…
Was that why Yoyes was killed?
[Josu] What was obvious is that the organization…
thought that it was necessary to cut out the cancer, so to speak,
that came from her choice,
considering that she was…
a… very important figure, individually speaking, I mean.
Did you take part in that decision?
No.
[Jordi] I want to read from Yoyes's personal diary.
"I, María Dolores González Catarain, declare that I have been threatened by ETA
when they found out my intentions of returning from exile
to live in Southern Euskadi with my family."
"It is unacceptable that an organization which considers itself revolutionary uses
fascist or Stalinist tactics with people who were once members
of that organization."
As Yoyes wrote in her letter, did ETA use fascist tactics with her?
No. I don't consider them to be fascist tactics,
but rather the consequences of a political cause.
Has the occasion ever arisen…?
Have you ever bumped into one of Yoyes's family members?
No.
If you could say something to them, what would you say?
That they have my deepest sympathies.
[Jordi] In 1988, Yoyes's sister said that ETA had sentenced her to death
just for thinking differently.
[Josu] I'm deeply sorry to say that
I don't share that opinion because
I don't think ETA ever killed anyone who didn't share their ideals.
It-- It would've been because, one way or another,
the person was collaborating with the oppressor
or collaborating with oppressive actions
against the pro-independence left.
Do you think that any political cause justifies murder?
Uh, listen, killing is not okay.
Neither this death or any other would have happened
if the government hadn't ignored
the demands of a very significant segment of the Basque population.
But the only response received was oppression.
Allow me to clarify what you mean
by "a significant part" of the Basque population.
[Josu] Okay.
Election results at the time showed that,
in some respects,
the pro-independence Basque left was represented,
but its most well-known party, Herri Batasuna,
never got more than 15 or 16 percent of the vote.
That wasn't exactly a very large turnout.
It's a very significant segment. I stand by what I said.
When you talk about the Basque people,
maybe you should qualify.
"One segment" of the Basque population.
[Josu] Yes, because, in this case,
it should be defined regionally too.
It shouldn't just be based on
which ever political party you align with. It should also be based on your region.
[Jordi] Let's say that, percentage-wise--
[Josu] That's what I'm saying.
[Jordi] …the majority of the Basque population
have never supported ETA's ideology across the board in elections.
So, do you think Yoyes' assassination was a mistake?
I think that, at that time, as a member of the organization,
I… well, I complied with the group's decision,
a decision that was made for political reasons. That's it.
[somber ambient music playing]
[Jordi] Do you know how to make a car bomb?
No.
In just two years, from 1986 to '87,
four car bombs caused 49 deaths.
Ten of those killed were children.
Were you part of ETA's leadership at the time?
No.
[Jordi] Not the political or military fronts?
I wasn't, no. I was in the international branch.
That wasn't part of the leadership?
No.
[Jordi] Or the political leadership?
No.
The international branch isn't related at all
to the rest of the branches in the organization.
Who did you report to?
Well… to people in the ETA leadership.
Did you have any second thoughts at all,
knowing that the use of such methods could result in many unintended victims?
I-- I don't think anyone knew that there would be unintended victims.
Who didn't know?
When you change your tactics,
no one knows if that change could suddenly mean
that there will be unintended victims.
- But it happened so soon. - [Josu] Well, yes.
- [Jordi] So soon after… - Yeah, exactly.
I don't know exactly if it was the first car bomb or the second,
but by that point there were already victims.
- [Josu] Yes, but there's… - They had nothing to do with ETA's cause.
[Jordi] And I don't like to distinguish between deaths,
but ETA does.
Uh, well, no, because it's reprehensible to do that.
If anyone has, how do I put it?
If anyone has distinguished between victims,
then it's been the Government. Here's an example, off the top of my head--
And ETA didn't?
Never.
Did they lessen the victims? Yes. But, no, they never distinguished between them.
For example,
I can think of the attack that was against…
I… don't think he was president yet. It was Aznar.
A person died in that attack.
I don't know if they were at the door… Someone died.
Press releases condemned the attack,
but that person was not mentioned.
Yes, they said that someone had died, but that's all.
So they did distinguish between the victims.
Because who got all the attention? Aznar, in that case.
Someone was killed in the Aznar attack, but it was barely mentioned.
The thing is,
the pro-independence left did not distinguish between victims.
It has been done, but not by the ETA.
Do you remember what happened on the 19th of June 1987?
No… The 19th of June 1987.
No, not really.
That year… no. I mean, a lot of things happened that year.
I-- I don't remember that exact date.
- Hipercor. - Ah, of course, yes.
[dispatcher] Hello. Yes?
- [man] Good afternoon. - Good afternoon.
[man] I'm calling on behalf of ETA.
JUNE 19TH
The Hipercor on Meridiana Ave. will explode at 3:30 p.m.
People should definitely leave the parking garage.
- [dispatcher] 3:30 p.m.? - 3:40 p.m.
Everyone should leave, especially from the garage. But no cars.
Long live Euskadi.
[sirens blaring]
- [crowd clamoring] - [officers shouting]
I'm surprised you don't remember.
No… No.
Well, why would I? I mean--
- Well, because of its importance. - Yes, okay, but…
I can tell you other dates I remember from that same year.
Like…
when there was, I think it was, the biggest raid
since the Vel' d'Hiver Roundup in 1944 in Paris, in France.
I remember that date.
Uh, but there are so many dates…
Li-- Like you said, it was important. I know you're right about that.
Because of the repercussions.
And because of how everything went down.
Uh, well, I-- I should've remembered it.
What did you think when you realized ETA had murdered 21 people,
including four children, in a supermarket
in a working-class neighborhood of Barcelona?
What do I think? Well,
uh, that-- that those repercussions, well,
they were caused by a mistake made by the organization.
Hipercor was a mistake?
I think so.
I consider it to be a mistake…
because of…
uh, the fact that--
that the leadership of ETA
put their trust in…
a government, an administration,
and that government had a role, which was to protect its citizens.
And despite ETA having given two warnings
so that they would evacuate,
they didn't evacuate.
It reached a point where the government was condemned
for having failed in their civil responsibilities.
Because the role of the government is to protect its citizens.
Uh, especially in a case like this where…
uh, where they had been given two warnings about a bomb
that was in a supermarket building where there were…
um, whe-- where there were hundreds of people.
Hundreds.
Let me see if I understand.
Was this a mistake made by ETA or not?
Come on now.
I said it's a mistake, in terms of ETA's assessment of the situation.
So they fell into the trap. They fell into the Government's trap.
You think that you've got it all worked out,
that all the bases are covered,
like when ETA warned the government that there was a bomb in the…
I don't know, wherever it was.
You'd think the people responsible would go to the place and evacuate it.
And this approach had worked up until now. So why change anything?
It was a mistake, a huge miscalculation.
It was a major error that had irreversible consequences,
and those consequences would affect working-class people. That's it.
That's it? All because the police didn't evacuate?
The objective wasn't to kill 21 people.
That happened because the police didn't evacuate.
[Jordi] Come on.
When you put a car bomb in the parking lot of a supermarket,
there's a high possibility that it will explode with people there.
That's exactly the mistake.
That's the mistake, a miscalculation of the consequences
of targeting a place populated with hundreds or thousands of people.
And on top of that, the fact that--
that you're trusting a government which doesn't carry out its duties.
Are you saying that ETA only meant to cause property damage in the attack?
Exactly. And that's what they said when they claimed responsibility.
The remains of the explosives from the car bomb at Hipercor,
as well as the shrapnel,
were mixed with… They found soap residue,
and this soap caused the fire to spread much farther than it otherwise would have.
And because of that, some victims were killed by the fire.
They burned.
When you prepare a car bomb in that way,
there must be some other motive, not just to cause property damage.
You're going a little too far, and I'll explain why.
If you want to be a terrorist,
it's very easy.
ETA's purpose was absolutely not to carry out terrorist attacks.
Terrorism is what we've seen in London, Paris, and, closer to home,
in Madrid in 2004.
So, ETA's objective…
which was clarified
again and again following the attack, was that no victims were ever intended.
Never.
The goal was to cause damage, financial loss.
And if the bomb set fire to the, what do you call it…?
The-- The warehouse… Then there would be even more damage.
[Jordi] When we discussed the tactics of religious extremism earlier,
you said that it was meaningless and that it's insane
to treat any citizen as a justifiable victim.
Isn't that the same thing you did in Hipercor?
No.
Absolutely not.
ETA's objective with that operation…
Their objective was made clear.
And that objective was to cause property damage.
By no means…
In-- In no way whatsoever was the objective ever to…
You're going too far when you compare ETA to religious extremism.
Whether in Madrid, London, or Syria, jihadists stand by their actions.
And they go further, justifying unintended victims.
The Madrid bombings resulted in 2,000 victims,
and they would have been happy with more.
But none of ETA's attacks,
for example, Hipercor…
None of the attacks in ETA's history had the goal of causing unintended victims,
as you said.
Absolutely not.
But there were.
Clearly, there were.
And we're back to that.
ETA said it was a mistake.
How did you feel in the days following the attack?
[Josu] Really bad. Really bad.
If you could talk to a survivor of the Hipercor attack,
what would you say?
I would say that I am deeply sorry.
But I keep asking myself
if there is anything that I could say to this person,
any empathy that I could show them,
that would actually do them… any good?
Right?
It's in the past.
Is the pain going to be any less?
They'll probably just tell me I'm a hypocrite.
And I'll tell you something else.
If I was in their situation, I'd probably say the same thing.
- [birds chirping] - [breeze blowing]
[sheep bleating]
On December 11th, 1987, ETA placed a car bomb
at the residential barracks of the police force in Zaragoza,
which caused 11 deaths, six of them children.
This happened six months after Hipercor.
[Josu] Mm-hmm.
You said the attack on Hipercor was a mistake.
Was the attack in Zaragoza a mistake?
That's not the way I see it.
If we look at the newspapers,
and we look at the documents from well before the attack,
and we focus on the statements and announcements that ETA made,
it is repeated several times…
I don't remember the exact date,
but they stated that, from such and such date,
not only will the police and military continue to be targets
but also their barracks.
So therefore, they requested
that all the families be evacuated from these residential barracks.
That was made public.
But the National Police ignored them.
In fact, they locked themselves away in their bunkers.
And the ETA decided
to act in accordance with their political strategy and analysis,
in which they had publicly declared,
uh, that residential barracks would become targets.
So, there were consequences, which were determined by ETA.
[somber ambient music building]
DECEMBER 11TH
[Jordi] Do you find any fault with the attack on the barracks in Zaragoza?
The fault I find with it is that the victims,
uh, were obviously women and…
and, well, it… was the children more than anything.
That was the…
the unintended, irreversible,
and tragic result,
the dire consequence of that attack.
A-- And obviously I feel deeply sorry
for those victims who, themselves, had nothing to do with…
what it was that the police barracks represented.
But if you put a car bomb beside the residential barracks, at night,
when you know that there are people inside,
that they'll be sleeping,
that the families of the officers will be there, too,
sleeping with them,
children,
husbands, wives,
you know what's going to happen.
I don't know how the group decided on that course of action.
I don't know the individuals who carried out the attack.
But
they would have been aware of the families.
Or maybe not.
How could they not be aware of what might happen?
I can't know what they were thinking,
the cell who carried that out.
I can't tell you what was going on in their heads.
What did you think when you saw the devastation caused by that attack?
It was painful.
It was painful and shouldn't have happened.
But,
with this attack in Zaragoza,
to say ETA had warned that the families should be evacuated
from the barracks and that only officers should be sleeping there overnight,
and that because they didn't evacuate, well, then that's just what happened,
and in the case of Hipercor,
the fact that the police didn't evacuate the parking lot also meant,
"Well, if they didn't evacuate, what could we have done?"
Isn't that cynical?
You're taking things out of context
and applying your own values to the situation.
To me,
it's very clear what happened at Hipercor was a mistake,
and that's it.
You'll say, "Yes, but the consequences…"
Okay, they were terrible and irreversible consequences.
When you asked me about the barracks in Zaragoza,
I gave you context.
And the consequences were very serious and painful.
So there's nothing cynical about that.
I admit that I feel deep sorrow about the fact that those victims
were children.
What if they had been police officers?
The police force knew their role.
Wasn't it to save the homeland?
"Everything for the homeland," isn't that what they say?
So when they walk into those barracks,
especially close to the Basque Country,
where they were sending groups like the GAR, Rapid Action Groups,
to oppress the Basque people…
It's their job. You told me…
Excuse me, actually, I told you,
re-- regarding the members of ETA
and whatever happens to them, whether it's oppression,
death, or-- or if they died during an attack,
they're not victims.
Absolutely not.
They're volunteers.
And it's the same for the police force. They're volunteers.
Or maybe not volunteers, but they chose their jobs.
You said earlier that it's reprehensible to distinguish between victims.
- [Josu] Yes. - Isn't that what you're doing?
- No. Absolutely not. No. Absolutely not. - Isn't this just as reprehensible as that?
- You're-- - I'm not distinguishing victims.
- [Jordi] Come on! - In any way, whatsoever.
You're saying certain victims, well,
if they're police officers
or part of the National Police or the military then…
At that moment, they were targets.
It has nothing to do with distinguishing. I'm not distinguishing.
I'm not distinguishing at all.
You're saying you feel very sorry if the victims are kids,
but if they're officers, then they're the defenders of the country
and so they can die for it.
Yes, but I'm not distinguishing at all. To me--
That is distinguishing, Mr. Urrutikoetxea.
I don't think it is.
The Spanish authorities, as you well know,
want you to be extradited to be tried for this case,
and the French authorities seem to agree.
You're accused of being a member of ETA's leadership at that time
and thus complicit in the attack.
Mr. Urrutikoetxea did you give the order for the attack in Zaragoza?
First, absolutely not.
Second, I wasn't part of ETA's leadership.
There are police reports showing that you were a member
of the leadership of ETA at the time,
even statements from companions like Elena Beloki,
who in her statement refers to you
as part of ETA's leadership in that year, in '87.
That's one of the reasons why police put together that report.
Her statement doesn't say that.
What does it say?
It says it was possible, but it isn't a confirmation.
Just like everyone else who accuses me,
be it Soares Gamboa or others.
They all say the same thing.
There's no proof whatsoever of any kind, anywhere.
MAY 29TH
[ominous ambient buzzing]
[Jordi] In 1991, ETA carried out another attack
on the residential barracks of the police, this time in Vic,
causing ten deaths, half of which were children.
[buzzing fades]
The people who carried out this attack, the terrorists who detonated the car bomb,
they pushed it down a ramp at the barracks in Vic,
and at the end of the ramp
children could be seen playing in the courtyard.
Despite this, they decided to push the rigged car down the ramp.
I don't know exactly.
If you say that's what happened, it-- it must be what happened.
- [Josu] I just don't know. - That's what witnesses said.
But, yes, that probably happened. If you say so.
How do you feel about that decision?
If the people who placed the bomb saw that there were kids,
I think those people were in the wrong.
By people, in this case,
I mean those who carried out the operation.
[Jordi] I'm comparing this attack with Zaragoza,
where a car bomb was set off during the night.
You said that because it was night, they couldn't assess the consequences properly.
- The consequences. - [Jordi] I disagreed.
But in this case, it was daytime.
The consequences were much clearer.
We talked about this.
[reporter in French] José Antonio Urrutikoetxea,
alias Josu Ternera,
was arrested by intelligence services while he was on his motorcycle.
Josu Ternera is considered to be ETA's number one.
He was involved in the death of Admiral Carrero Blanco
and had narrowly evaded French police
in Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle.
[Jordi] After your arrest in 1989, you spent eleven years in prison.
First you were incarcerated in France. What were you charged with?
I was arrested in '89 in Bayonne
and charged with belonging to a criminal organization,
with the intent to commit acts of terrorism, or something like that.
It might not be that exact translation,
but, anyway, that's the alleged crime I was tried for.
[in Spanish] French authorities delivered Josu Ternera, a top-member of ETA,
to Spanish police
at the border crossing near La Junquera.
He is suspected of leading ETA's international arm
and of being involved in the extortion of Basque business owners.
[Jordi] After serving seven years of your sentence in France,
in 1996, you were extradited to Spain.
You were transferred to the Alcalá Meco prison,
where you spent another four years, this time in preventive detention,
while you were being investigated for other crimes.
[Jordi] That same year, ETA kidnapped prison officer Ortega Lara.
I'd like to know what your relationship was
with the correctional officers when you were incarcerated at Alcalá Meco,
while Ortega Lara was in captivity.
In general, their attitude was extremely cold.
[clears throat]
Excuse me, and very contemptuous.
Even when all the stuff that happened with Ortega Lara was over,
they still had the same attitude.
That's just what they were like.
To them, we were the enemy.
- ETA also saw officers as the enemy. - [Josu] Yes, at that time. That's true.
- [Jordi] The facts speak for themselves. - Yeah.
Ortega Lara was kidnapped and held captive for 532 days
inside a tiny pit, under inhumane conditions.
JULY 1ST
[somber music building]
[crowd applauding, cheering]
[Jordi] What did you think when you saw that iconic image
from Ortega Lara's release,
after a kidnapping which must've been so terrifying?
What do I think?
I think it must have been very hard for that person.
Because living in isolation,
like some of my male and female companions,
not for 539 days, but for twenty years or more, well…
I-- I can imagine it must be very tough living in that type of isolation.
Would Ortega Lara have died if he hadn't been found?
I don't know.
Considering ETA's demand for prisoners to be transferred closer…
[Josu] I don't know. There were demands. There are facts…
From my point of view, it's possible.
It's possible.
I think ETA's objective in that situation, like you just said, was to exchange him
for other prisoners.
That might have been the angle, or any steps towards that outcome.
Then they might have freed him.
[in Basque] Well, we therefore think
that the police as well as many politicians
will praise the use of repression.
We'd like to give them some advice.
Be careful about getting drunk off repression
because there's the inevitable hangover.
A few days after Ortega Lara's release,
and only days after the statement from a spokesperson for Herri Batasuna,
ETA kidnapped
the People's Party representative for the town of Ermua,
Miguel Ángel Blanco.
Was that a response?
That's your interpretation.
[Jordi] What's yours?
A response? I don't think so, no. I don't know.
I don't know what went through the minds
of the people who decided to kidnap Miguel Ángel Blanco.
It doesn't seem like a logical response, but anyway…
[Jordi] Was this payback from ETA?
[Josu] I don't think so.
I don't think so, because as far as I know…
In my experience,
it's always seemed as if
the pursuit of retaliation or revenge is
just not a sentiment… uh, which helps us to advance our project
or our goal of the reconstruction of Euskal Herria.
Not in any way, shape, or form.
Uh, plus, revenge and hatred blind you
and don't allow you to analyze things properly.
When you heard about the kidnapping, what did you think?
Well, I thought…
I-- I didn't really understand it, honestly. I don't really understand…
uh, what the objective of that operation was.
That's it. I-- I had no information, so I didn't understand.
[somber organ music building]
JULY 11TH
ETA KIDNAPS A TOWN COUNCILOR AND THREATENS TO MURDER HIM TOMORROW
DEADLINE SET AT 4:00 P.M.
[somber organ music continues]
[Jordi] ETA gave the government 48 hours to move
imprisoned ETA members closer to Euskadi.
Or else they would execute Miguel Ángel Blanco.
You were incarcerated at the time.
How did that affect you?
I'll say it again. With the information I had,
uh, which was extremely limited,
my interpretation is…
I don't know. I didn't see the point in what they did, and I can't explain it.
During those 48 hours,
did you voice disagreement with ETA?
It's not about making it public. Why would I do that?
The fact that I disagreed with them… and any comments I might have shared,
or-- or my point of view…
Those are things that I would convey to whomever I needed to.
[Jordi] Did you communicate those things?
I did, of course.
[helicopter whirring]
[whirring continues]
JULY 12TH
[Jordi] During those days,
not only in the rest of Spain but also in the Basque Country,
hundreds of thousands of people went out onto the streets to demand
that ETA not kill Miguel Ángel Blanco.
Why didn't ETA listen to them?
I think they ignored what the people were saying,
or they ignored what a segment of the population was saying.
When you don't listen to people, it's because you don't hear them,
or you don't want to.
Forty-eight hours passed.
It was 4:00 p.m on that Saturday,
and ETA carried out their threat
and murdered Miguel Ángel Blanco.
[in Spanish] We've received confirmation…
JULY 13TH
…that Miguel Ángel has been murdered.
[crowd screaming]
[chanting] Murderers!
[chanting] They're not Basques! They're murderers!
They're not Basques! They're murderers!
[chanting] ETA, shoot me in the head!
ETA, shoot me in the head! ETA, shoot me in the head!
[chanting fades out]
When you saw that crowd of Basque people shouting,
"They're not Basques. They're murderers!"
"ETA, shoot me in the head!"
what did you think?
Well, I think that it's obvious that there's a segment
of the population, men and women of the Basque Country,
who did not agree with us.
Instead, they dissented.
That's what I think.
Even some prior supporters dissented.
I-- I don't know who was there.
But a lot of people turned out to express their disagreement,
people who, as you said, may have previously supported us.
Of course.
Did you know Francisco Javier García Gaztelu?
- [Jordi] Txapote. - No.
- The perpetrator of the murder. - No. No.
What would you have said if you had been able to talk to him
during the 48 hours of Miguel Ángel Blanco's captivity?
I'd have said that I didn't think the operation, um…
should have taken place.
Why not?
Because…
I think that it was…
a mistake,
politically and morally, with irreversible consequences,
and which was not helpful in any way at all…
uh, strategically.
Personally…
I believe the organization, ETA, was probably working on
bridge-building at the time,
ways to find a solution to the conflict through negotiation.
Did you consider leaving ETA?
Why?
Because I disagreed with them?
No.
[in Spanish] Today, the Basque Country saw something unprecedented
yet entirely legal.
Josu Ternera, ETA's former leader,
entered the Parliament to register as a member of parliament.
[female newscaster] Josu Ternera, one of ETA's heavyweights behind bars,
returned to prison after he had been freed for a few hours.
While you were in prison in 1998, you were elected to the Basque Parliament
as a member of the Euskal Herritarrok party,
which was another name used by Batasuna.
But you weren't able to attend Parliament on a regular basis
until your release from prison in the year 2000.
[female newscaster 2] Josu Ternera was released today.
The Supreme Court ruled that in France he was already tried
and sentenced to ten years in prison for the same crime.
Now that I am free, I intend to participate
in an ongoing… project in Euskal Herria, which is that of building Euskal Herria.
[indistinct speech]
[Jordi] It was startling to see you in the Basque Parliament.
What were you thinking about on that day that you took a seat
as a representative of the Basque people?
Nothing in particular. Just, well, the people.
By "the people" I mean the people in my constituency, obviously.
They had elected me.
And it was my responsibility to do my job
as a representative of that segment of the population.
It was my duty and responsibility.
- …information-- - [loud, distant rumbling]
[reporters panicking]
[Jordi] In the year 2000,
the same year you became a member of Parliament,
ETA intensified their operations and killed 23 people.
It had been 8 years since ETA had caused
that many deaths in one year,
and they would never again kill so many in such a short time.
[in Spanish] Scream. As long as you scream, you're not killing!
[Jordi] Among those who were murdered were
politicians, journalists, and businessmen
who had refused to pay the money that ETA demanded.
The so-called "revolutionary tax."
Killing people who don't pay you,
isn't that something the Mafia does?
That's not the point.
Those deaths were avoidable.
Those people were involved in the process, but, as you said,
they accepted the consequences.
And, furthermore, they said so publicly and openly.
I'll say it again. I think that…
it's sad, but those were the consequences of the conflict.
Did you support this type of revolutionary tax?
The revolutionary tax was necessary because it was needed
to continue the struggle of the pro-independence movement.
After the 23 murders in the year 2000,
there were Basque elections in 2001,
and Euskal Herritarrok
again put you forward as a candidate.
The party ended up losing seats, dropping from 14 to 7.
And their percentage of the vote went down almost nine points.
I have one question.
I want to know if you chose to participate in the political process
to end violence for ethical or for strategic reasons.
Both.
First, I realized,
well, actually I'd realized before,
that we were in the middle of an oppressive spiral
and the ethical aspects were not being considered,
or minimally at best, and this had consequences.
The insensitivity and disregard, the lack of empathy from both sides,
that cut both ways, and therefore it was an important factor to consider.
The other factor was that, in order to take…
steps towards a resolution of the conflict…
Those steps… simply couldn't be taken
by using a strategy which involved violent confrontation.
It would have been a total contradiction.
So on the one hand, we had ethical concerns,
or, rather, a lack of ethical behavior in terms of the confrontation.
And on the other hand, there was a need to change our strategy.
In 2002, the Supreme Court summoned you to make a statement during the proceedings
for the attack on the police barracks in Zaragoza in 1987.
You did not attend.
You fled from Spain and went back into hiding.
[train whooshing]
[indistinct conversation]
[Jordi] While you were in hiding, you participated in the negotiations
between ETA and the Spanish government
that started in June in 2005.
You met for the first time with the president
of the Socialist Party in Euskadi, Jesús Eguiguren.
Is it true that one of the first things you said to Eguiguren was
"I'm here to end the violence"?
That's one of the things I said to him, among others.
I told him,
"You and I should do our utmost to overcome this phase of violence."
I said we had to find a way out,
that we couldn't leave this conflict for future generations to deal with
and we needed to do everything in our power
to put an end to that phase.
You and Jesús Eguiguren met again in Oslo, in November 2005.
You left Oslo having made the commitment that there would be a ceasefire
and that ETA would communicate this decision publicly.
In September of 2006,
you met again in Switzerland.
[Josu] Mm-hmm.
[Jordi] And on that occasion, in addition to Eguiguren and yourself,
you were accompanied by another representative from ETA,
whose name is Xabier López Peña, AKA Thierry.
Was Thierry ETA's leader at that time?
ETA was never…
Well, it's always been lead more by groups and collectives, not by leaders.
- [Jordi] Not by one sole leader. - No. There wasn't just one leader.
But, was Thierry part of the collective leadership of ETA?
Yes, supposedly, that's why he negotiated.
There was no reason to doubt that he came on behalf of the leadership.
Obviously, by that I mean the leadership of ETA.
Why did Thierry go to that negotiation, which took place in Montreux?
I think that, at the time,
that ETA leadership wasn't…
uh, in the right mindset to enter negotiations.
Rather they were in the mindset of continuing
wi-- with the political-military conflict, with the armed violence.
They were of the opinion
that the outcomes of the negotiations would not be sufficient.
I believed otherwise.
And I realized, at the time,
uh, that ETA's leadership didn't agree with what I thought
and that their sights were set on something else.
So, I had two options.
One, I continued being a member, which meant I'd have to comply.
Or, two, I could leave.
And that's what I did.
And you cut all ties?
Absolutely.
[Jordi] You no longer have contact with Eguiguren or…?
With no one.
I decided to leave, to go to a place I knew.
The Pyrenees?
To the Pyrenees, to the district of Ariège.
It's true that ETA opened up an internal debate between 2007 and 2011
in order to decide which direction they were going.
- [Josu] Yes. - Basically ETA's path forward.
Even though you weren't in the organization, did you take part
in that internal debate?
No. Absolutely not.
Over the past two decades,
ETA's close circles, and ETA itself, have been under extreme pressure
from the Spanish police and the military, and also from court rulings.
[tense ambient humming]
ETA's leadership fronts were dropping, one after the other.
[in Basque] Long live ETA! Long live a free Euskal Herria!
To what extent do you believe that police pressure influenced ETA
to the point that they decided to end the violence indefinitely?
Well, that's part of taking control of the story,
what they call "controlling the narrative."
I mean the government was selling an image of organization in disarray.
It's the same in war. It's psychological warfare.
You have to convince the citizens. They need to see
the image of a defeated enemy in order to lose faith.
Psychological warfare aside,
don't you think that the pressure on ETA and their network cornered them?
I think…
I-- I don't think that was the issue.
Having two governments on your back
and, on top of that, all the resources that they have available…
Well, obviously, that complicates things for any organization or any movement.
Especially for ETA, being in Europe,
between both the Spanish and French governments.
And then on the other hand,
there's the fact that the organization had always listened to what the people…
were saying.
The people's point of view had shifted.
The voice of the public was no longer in accordance with
the political-military strategy that ETA had been using.
ETA has decided to permanently disarm.
ETA calls upon the governments of Spain and France
to open a direct line of dialogue
in order to put an end to the consequences of the conflict
and to overcome armed confrontation.
ETA has announced that it will permanently disarm.
It is the clearest step towards peace the terrorist organization has ever taken.
Today we should celebrate this great victory of democracy.
How did you feel about that final statement from ETA,
declaring the definitive end to the violence?
Was it a victory or a failure?
- Not victory or failure. - What was it?
I saw it as a necessary step,
when faced with the reality of Euskal Herria at the time.
Did the announcement come too late?
Not the announcement, no, but the decision, itself, came too late.
By that decision I mean… uh, the decision to--
to put an end to violent armed conflict, definitively.
When do you think the statement should've been made?
In 2005.
All right. So, then let's fast-forward to May of 2018,
when you were the one to read out that last statement issued by ETA.
"ETA,
the Basque socialist revolutionary organization for national liberation
hereby informs the Basque people that its journey has ended."
"As a consequence of this decision,
ETA has completely dismantled all of its structures."
"ETA was born from the people, and now it dissolves back into the people."
"Long live a free Euskal Herria."
- You were no longer part of ETA. - No.
Then why did you read the final statement, ETA's last words?
I read that statement because
I had a long history as an ETA member
and as a member of the pro-independence left.
That meant that, whether we wanted to or not,
uh, we had to come out, how do you say… unmasked.
Unmasked.
That also came with legal consequences for me.
Obviously.
[Jordi] Why?
Because I'm reading a statement from a terrorist organization.
And who do you suppose does that?
A member of a terrorist organization. But at that time, I wasn't.
It wasn't normal.
It wasn't.
But that was the truth.
- [birds chirping] - [sheep bleating]
[Jordi] This year, you'll be turning 72.
You've dealt with death and near-death experiences for decades.
Do you fear your own death?
Not at all. That's life.
Do you think that when the time comes for you to face death,
that you'll have any regrets when you look back on your choices?
Regrets? I think that
like any other person,
I'd probably regret some things.
For example, I would…
regret
uh, not having-- not having done more than I did at the time
in order to…
[sighs]
…um,
to end the…
the crazy cycle, the spiral of violence, much sooner.
I'd regret that because I hadn't…
I-- I mean, maybe I could have done more to help stop it sooner.
In this interview, you revealed something we didn't know.
You shared several things,
but one specifically that we didn't know was that you had been involved
in the murder of the mayor of Galdakao in 1976.
It's a fact we were not aware of,
and, actually, you were never tried for it.
Do you feel equally responsible for that death?
Obviously, I do. Yes.
I take responsibility as much it relates to me,
as a member of ETA at that time.
Are you saying that
you feel equally responsible for the deaths caused by ETA too.
I take responsibility for what I did.
Let's be clear. My actions, what I did.
I take responsibility for what I did as a member of the organization.
Please, don't put words in my mouth.
I would like to say the name of that mayor,
Víctor Legorburu,
and also
the person who was escorting him,
a local police officer named Francisco Ruiz Sánchez.
He was shot many times,
and he has also written a book which details his--
[Josu] I know.
[Jordi] …details his experience, which, of course, was very traumatic.
The aftermath was also traumatic.
He faced stigmatization from his neighbors.
He described that they would cross to the other side of the street
whenever they saw him.
He wrote that it seemed almost as if
they disapproved of the very fact
that he survived the attack at all.
If any members of Legorburu's family are watching this interview,
what would you say to them?
I'd say what I've said before. I extend my deepest sympathies.
[Jordi] And to Mr. Francisco Ruiz Sánchez?
- Who was wounded. - [Josu] The…? Yes.
[birds chirping]
[Josu] I want to say something.
Killing isn't pleasurable for anyone.
Anyone.
Obviously, not for the person who was killed or for their family.
But killing isn't pleasurable for the killer either.
It is
and will always be
a burden
which that person, man or woman,
will carry to the end of their days.
Do you carry that?
Obviously. And I'll say it for the third time.
I take responsibility for what I did.
Obviously, I carry that burden.
[Jordi] How does that feel?
Well,
it's like a backpack.
It's full of things related to what you've done in life.
[Jordi] Is it heavy?
Very heavy.
Mr. Urrutikoetxea, what has been the point of all this?
Look.
If the question you're asking… is what is the point
of the things that I've done in my life…
I'd say that for fifty years…
I've been involved in the struggle of the Basque people.
I made some good choices, many, and some mistakes.
And…
it would be disingenuous for any person, having fought for fifty years,
to say that their life has been pointless.
That would be monstrous.
I was involved
in accordance with my beliefs, from the beginning.
And I've tried to live my life
as a citizen
the way I thought best,
to the very end.
That's it.
[exhales loudly]
[sniffs]
[chair creaking]
[sighs]
I wasn't expecting this, my boy.
This subject…
I learned something that I couldn't have imagined.
[clears throat]
I never thought
Josu Ternera could have been involved in that murder, Jordi.
I never thought that.
That's why there are still 330 unsolved cases,
and we don't know who was behind the attacks.
And we'd like to know who the murderers are.
So, today I was really surprised
by the interview that you did with this…
I was going to say "murderer."
You know, I would've appreciated it and it would still be nice
if others also came forward and made statements.
That would be a way to find closure,
to live in peace and finally forget all this.
Regarding the attack in which you were injured,
Josu Urrutikoetxea said he "extends his deepest sympathies."
I don't think he does.
I… don't think he does.
He could have said…
he could have said
that he regrets it.
He talks about this burden. Okay, I'm sure he carries it on his back.
But he probably thinks he was fighting for a good reason,
defending the Basque Country, or for whatever reason.
For independence, to build their own nation.
But he doesn't regret what he did.
If Josu Urrutikoetxea was in front of you, what would you say?
[Francisco] I'd ask him to apologize to me.
If he would ask for forgiveness and admit to all his crimes…
I'm a man of peace.
All I want is peace
and to forget about all that hatred and terror we experienced for 60 years.
And that,
I don't know if…
if we could end up shaking hands and finally forget about all of this.
But I don't think that day will ever come.
[birds chirping]
[breeze blowing]
After operating for nearly 60 years, ETA disbanded in 2018.
The organization never achieved
any of the goals upon which it was founded.
In 2021, the Basque pro-independence left acknowledged
that the pain that ETA's victims suffered "never should have happened."
As of the completion of this documentary in September 2023,
166 ETA members remain incarcerated in France and Spain.
In 2011, ETA announced that it would permanently disarm,
and the organization has never committed another act of terror.
ETA is the only terrorist organization in Europe to have done so.
Francisco Ruiz is retired and lives in a town in Ciudad Real, Spain.
Josu Urrutikoetxea is on parole in southern France
and awaiting extradition to Spain.
[birds chirping]
[flies buzzing]