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Downloaded from
YTS.MX
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
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[somber music building]
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From 1968 to 2010,
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the terrorist organization ETA murdered
852 people and wounded 2,661 others.
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Source: Spanish Ministry of the Interior.
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ETA was founded in 1959,
during Francisco Franco's dictatorship,
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to fight for the independence
of the Basque Country.
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Following Franco's death in 1975,
ETA became increasingly violent.
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The organization committed
more than 90% of its murders
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after the transition to democracy.
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The Spanish state as well as far-right
and parapolice groups waged
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an illicit war against ETA
in which 73 people were killed.
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Source: Basque government.
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- [breeze blowing]
- [birds chirping]
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Francisco Ruiz and Josu Urrutikoetxea
do not know each other
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and have only crossed paths once.
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This is part of their story.
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[man] I moved to Euskadi because…
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Well, I am one of those kids
born in the aftermath
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of the Spanish Civil War.
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I moved to Euskadi when I was three.
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Then later on, at seventeen,
I became a licensed plumber.
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And that was until I was
28 or 29 years old,
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when I moved to Ciudad Real.
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I built my life there.
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That was where I got married,
and that was where raised four daughters.
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And to be honest,
I really… Well the truth is
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I've always really loved Euskadi.
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So I have fond memories of that land.
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[music fading]
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I finished my military service.
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Galdakao, where I lived,
posted three police officer jobs,
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which required a public service exam.
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And, well, I didn't particularly want
to be a police officer.
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It wasn't something
I had ever thought about.
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But the truth is that I realized
I had to bring home a salary
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because, by that point,
I already had four daughters.
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So I had to bring in money.
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[Jordi] Francisco, what happened
on the 9th of February 1976?
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Well, on that day,
the 9th of February in '76, I was on duty.
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I started at 6:00 a.m.
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In addition to our regular duties
as officers, as local police officers,
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we also had to work
for the mayor, as bodyguards.
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The mayor always went out
at 8:00 a.m. sharp.
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And on that day, it was my responsibility,
as the senior officer,
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to wait for the mayor
outside his house, by his door.
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And to walk him to his car.
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It was about 500 meters down the road.
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He always came out
at the same time, of course,
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and we always walked down the same street.
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And then, twenty meters from his doorstep,
from where the mayor lived,
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an ETA cell ambushed us.
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They jumped out
with handguns and machine guns.
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And, well, they riddled us with bullets.
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They shot the mayor.
I think it was five or six times.
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They killed the mayor
right then and there, on the spot.
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I was shot in the chest several times,
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I got some bullets in my stomach too.
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But I did have a moment to react,
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and I threw myself down
between two parked cars.
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So that, well, that saved my life.
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But as the terrorists were fleeing,
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they aimed a machine gun at me
and fired more rounds.
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And so then I got
six more bullets in my body,
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from the waist down.
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But, hey…
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I was alive. I was alive at that moment.
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I didn't lose consciousness.
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So what I did was…
Because I was a Catholic,
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not much of a churchgoer,
but I was a Catholic,
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I asked the Virgin Mary, I prayed to her…
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[exhales]
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…so that she would spare my life…
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to raise my daughters.
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And, eventually, I passed out.
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They told me…
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People were scared.
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Because the whole time I was lying there,
no one came to help.
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And it was the town's main street.
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It was 8:00 a.m.,
when everyone's leaving for work.
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Later on, they called my wife. And she…
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Well, she feared the worst.
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My wife was speechless.
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In that moment, my wife had no words.
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And then a police car came to pick her up
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and took her to the hospital where I was.
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I was in the operating room,
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and they told her that
they wouldn't bet a cent on my survival.
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Because of all the bullets in my body.
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But I think that prayer I said worked.
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The Lady up there helped me.
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We were there
for a total of five months. Five months.
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I spent five months in the hospital.
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Then they discharged me, and I went home.
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But I went home in a wheelchair.
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And the first time I went out,
I noticed that there was…
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I felt a lot of judgement
directed toward me.
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People were staying away.
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I noticed that people who I knew
would cross the road to avoid me.
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There was already
a lot of fear in the Basque Country.
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They were scared to be seen
with a victim of terrorism
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by an abertzale, a Basque nationalist.
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And, honestly, that hurt me very deeply.
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It was as painful as the actual attack.
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To be cast out of that community
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where I'd lived
since I was three years old,
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well, since I was six,
when I moved to Galdakao.
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I lived in that town. Everybody knew me.
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So, to be rejected for being a victim,
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that was a terrible blow for me.
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When my wife went
out to the shops to get groceries,
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when she went to the butcher's,
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well, he would have
no problem just speaking his mind.
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With the shop full of people he'd say,
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"They should have killed
that fascist a long time ago."
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"And screw that police officer
for protecting him."
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When my wife came home,
I would see the tears in her eyes.
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So I had to make a choice.
I talked to my family,
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and we decided
to leave the Basque Country.
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As if we were… I don't know.
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Like exiles.
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We had to leave that area.
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Have you felt hatred
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towards the people that carried out
the attack on you and the mayor?
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Have I felt hatred? Of course, I have.
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I've felt hatred,
just like I felt fear in those days.
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[Jordi] The investigation into your attack
was never resolved.
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Some of the members
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of the terrorist organization ETA
who attacked you could not be identified,
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and then others were pardoned in 1977.
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We have put together a documentary
that is based around a conversation,
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an interview with an historic ETA member,
whose name is Josu Urrutikoetxea.
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I don't know if you…
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Yes. Josu Ternera.
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Coincidentally, he actually gave us
new information relating to your attack.
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And you, at least, deserve
to know this information.
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Wow. This is the first I've heard
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about an ETA terrorist sharing
details about that day.
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I don't know if you'd like to see
the footage, or if you'd rather not--
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Of course! Of course I want to see it.
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It's been a long time. I'd like to hear
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something I don't already know
about the attack.
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Well, then, I'd like you to watch.
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Okay.
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[sighs]
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[birds chirping]
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[indistinct background chatter]
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[coughs]
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[Jordi] I know you don't like
to be called Ternera,
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but when talking to people who know you,
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former associates
and former members of ETA,
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they call you that.
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Why the nickname?
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Well, it happened over drinks
at a bar in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
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There was someone-- I know who they are,
but I'm not going to tell you.
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And they said,
"Shit, you reacted like a calf,"
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which in Spanish is "ternera."
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So what happened next?
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Soon afterwards,
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one of the people there that night
went on to be arrested
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in the Southern Basque Country…
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and was tortured.
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And this person repeated
what they heard that night.
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"Yes, in this bar, on such and such date,
so-and-so and so-and-so were there,
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and this other guy… and among them,
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a guy who they called 'Ternera'."
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And they said, "Who, him?"
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They showed the guy a photo,
and he said, "Yes, that's him."
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And then that's what was written
on the summons documents.
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That's where the nickname first appeared.
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- [Jordi] Josu Ternera.
- Yes.
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[multiple voices in Spanish]
Josu Ternera, Josu Ternera…
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[tense music playing]
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[reporter] Admiral Carrero Blanco,
president of Spain, has been assassinated.
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He was attacked by terrorists.
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[tense music continues]
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ETA'S MILITARY ARM RESTRUCTURES
AND MAKES URRUTIKOETXEA NUMBER TWO
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[sirens blaring]
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"JOSU TERNERA" NOW TOP ETA LEADER,
DIRECTLY CONTROLS MILITARY
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ETA'S MOST POWERFUL LEADER EVER
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[in French] José Antonio Urrutikoetxea
has been arrested.
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[in French] José Antonio Urrutikoetxea,
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alias Josu Ternera, is considered to be
ETA's number one.
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NO EXTRADITIONS
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FREE JOSU!
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[sirens blaring]
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Today, French authorities handed over
Josu Ternera, a top-member of ETA,
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to Spanish police.
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He is suspected
of leading ETA's international arm.
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You sons of bitches!
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[chanting] Murderers! Murderers…
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[chanting] Enough is enough!
Enough is enough…
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Josu Ternera was released
from prison today.
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[chanting in Basque]
Long live ETA's military arm!
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[in Spanish] Obtaining a legislative seat
is always better
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than obtaining a handgun and using it.
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That's always better.
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As painful as it is,
I think he has the right to do it.
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Josu Ternera, tell your former comrades
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to let us, the people,
enact our own revolution,
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our own changes at the polls.
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[music fading]
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[bell tolling]
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NO TO ETA - THAT'S ENOUGH
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[music building]
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The Batasuna member of Parliament
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and ETA's former number one,
Josu Ternera, is at large.
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We do not know the whereabouts
of Mr. Urrutikoetxea.
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I have no information and no clue
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if we'll learn where he is.
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The Government will begin talks with ETA.
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What was Josu Ternera's advantage?
He knew the importance of Parliament.
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[explosion]
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ETA has decided to permanently disarm.
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FORWARD ON BOTH FRONTS
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[reporter] It's the end of the road
according to a key figure, Josu Ternera.
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"ETA was born from the people,
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and now it dissolves
back into the people."
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[reporter 2] These are the first images
of Josu Ternera
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in custody after 17 years on the run.
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Josu Ternera has been arrested.
He was ETA's last top member.
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…congratulate you on arresting
José Antonio Urrutikoetxea Bengoetxea,
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Josu Ternera.
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[Isabel Celáa] Today, the Cabinet has
requested that France extradite
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the ETA member Josu Ternera.
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[reporter 3] A French judge acquitted
the ETA member Josu Ternera
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of the charge of membership in ETA
between 2011 and 2013.
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He has another trial pending in France
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and will then be extradited to Spain
to stand trial for the attack
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on the Civil Guard barracks in Zaragoza
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and for financing ETA
through pubs run by sympathizers.
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FACE TO FACE WITH ETA:
CONVERSATIONS WITH A TERRORIST
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"I have been, am now, and will always be
a member of ETA, and I'm proud of it."
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That's what you said to a court in Paris.
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Yes. I was a member of ETA, obviously.
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[Jordi] Are you proud of it?
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00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,600
I was an ETA member.
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00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,800
The circumstances when I said that
at the time, in the '90s,
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are completely different from
the circumstances when I joined,
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and from the situation now.
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By no means do I deny
that it was me who said that.
243
00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,080
You were one
of the most noteworthy members of ETA,
244
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:30,160
one of the longest sitting in the
history of that terrorist organization.
245
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,840
You joined shortly after it was founded.
246
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,840
You were involved
in almost all of ETA's key moments.
247
00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,760
You've spent 12 years in prison,
over 20 years in hiding,
248
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:45,080
and you announced the disbandment
of the organization in 2018.
249
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,080
In total, it's been almost 50 years.
250
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,200
Was ETA your life?
251
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,200
ETA is part of my life. There's no doubt.
252
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:57,480
As you just said,
253
00:14:58,520 --> 00:14:59,360
[clears throat]
254
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,200
I joined ETA as a volunteer,
when I was 17 years old.
255
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,720
I'm 71 now, going on 72.
256
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,520
So in one way or another,
well, obviously there's a relationship.
257
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,040
Although, I must clarify,
ETA has disappeared.
258
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,880
What do you expect from this interview?
259
00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,240
My expectation for this interview is that…
260
00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,240
Up until today,
other people have spoken for me.
261
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,440
Not only spoken, but written books.
262
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:40,040
And for a number of reasons,
263
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,640
I haven't had
many opportunities to express myself.
264
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,000
We're in France. I don't know
if we can say specifically where.
265
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,800
I don't mind, but we're not in France.
266
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:54,400
With all due respect,
267
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:59,200
you can think, and you do think in fact,
that we're in France. Okay?
268
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,640
But I don't think we're in France.
269
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,160
It's known as the French Basque Country,
270
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,400
but for me, it's Euskal Herria,
271
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:09,400
that is, the Northern Basque Country.
272
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,960
Therefore, I'll continue
this conversation… on those terms.
273
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,680
I'm going to, of course, respect
the language you use.
274
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,040
I do think we're in France.
At least, legally, we're in France.
275
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,280
We're in Saint-Jean-de-Luz.
276
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,280
For many people in Spain,
your name is synonymous with terrorism
277
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,080
as well as with brutality and cruelty.
278
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,560
And, at the same time, all the people
who took part in the peace process
279
00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:42,200
that ended the terrorist organization ETA,
280
00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,920
also people from the Spanish government,
281
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,440
consider you to be a key player
in reaching the end of that violence.
282
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:52,960
And?
283
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,000
How do you reconcile those two sides?
284
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,160
Mine is not the only case.
285
00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:01,880
But they…
286
00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,520
they made an example out of me.
287
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,840
That's where the narrative
comes into play,
288
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,560
from their point of view,
the narrative of winners and losers.
289
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,920
For them, there's only one narrative.
And I am cast as one of the villains.
290
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,720
A character stripped of
everything that makes a person human.
291
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,600
I was dehumanized.
292
00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,080
They talk about me as if,
293
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,640
as if I had horns coming out of my head
and a forked tongue,
294
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,040
or as if we were bloodthirsty creatures.
295
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:32,160
I am a person just like any other.
296
00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,000
I had and I have political,
social, and cultural beliefs.
297
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,680
I have a family, like any other person.
298
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,680
Obviously, I was a member of ETA.
299
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,640
And, obviously, I've been judged
and sentenced for it
300
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:50,160
by the French government.
301
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,120
But not by the Spanish government.
302
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,280
And most of my work
303
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:58,920
as an ETA member
304
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,040
has been paving the way
for the resolution of this conflict.
305
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,280
And, thus, to stop the conflict
306
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:08,800
and move forward, to turn the page
using political negotiation.
307
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,920
{\an8}[in Spanish] The Government will begin
talks with ETA
308
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,680
{\an8}and will not waver in its stance
309
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,720
{\an8}that political matters
shall only be resolved
310
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,320
{\an8}by those who legitimately represent
311
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,280
{\an8}the will
312
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:28,200
of the people.
313
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,360
[Jordi] Let's start at the end,
in the year 2005.
314
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,640
Zapatero's socialist government begins
talks to try to end the violence,
315
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,080
and you are in charge of
negotiating on ETA's behalf.
316
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,360
Were you the leader of ETA at that time?
317
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:44,680
Absolutely not.
318
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,760
During the years from 2002 to 2006,
319
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,800
I had one job and one job only,
320
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,000
which was solely and exclusively
to work on political relationships.
321
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,360
In addition to that, to work on directing
322
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,640
or to try and direct
the situation towards a resolution,
323
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,600
to overcome the conflict
through negotiation.
324
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:08,560
You weren't their leader.
325
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,120
- But you negotiated in ETA's name.
- Yes.
326
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,360
You always talked to Jesús Eguiguren,
327
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,800
who, at the time, was the president
of the Socialist Party in Euskadi.
328
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:18,800
Yes, exactly.
329
00:19:21,120 --> 00:19:22,240
[Jordi] I was quite surprised
330
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:28,280
that the persona of Josu Urrutikoetxea,
or Josu Ternera, barely got any attention
331
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,280
compared to the other parties
in the negotiation.
332
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:33,640
You were a very active participant
in the talks,
333
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,240
so for you not to receive
more of the attention…
334
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,640
I ask you, please, not to call me that.
335
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,200
Call me Josu Urrutikoetxea. That's fine.
336
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,840
But not Josu Ternera. Because, for me…
337
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,280
- That's what I've been doing.
- [Josu] Yes, but--
338
00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:51,120
I said Ternera just now. I was talking
about how other people refer to you.
339
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,440
- [Josu] Okay. Right.
- That's not how I'll address you.
340
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:54,360
[Josu] Right.
341
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:56,760
Well,
342
00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,960
I don't know because I'm not involved
in the hierarchies of the separatist left.
343
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,400
They did what they thought was
best at that time,
344
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:07,880
so that's what they did.
345
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,560
In June 2005,
while you were holding negotiations,
346
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,400
there was a victimless ETA attack
on La Peineta stadium in Madrid.
347
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,800
- [Josu] Yes.
- How did you feel? Any comments?
348
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,040
I was troubled, obviously.
349
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,120
What do you mean by "troubled"?
350
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:28,640
It affected me. Well, I don't know.
351
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,360
I-- I heard
the operation had happened and…
352
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,960
Well, it would've been better
if it hadn't happened.
353
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,160
Because maybe it would have been more--
354
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,120
It would have laid
the groundwork better for an agreement.
355
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,120
Additionally,
356
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,800
during that first phase
of the negotiations,
357
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:51,200
there was a jihadist attack in London
on the 7th of July.
358
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:53,280
That attack resulted in
359
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,200
more than 50 people
being killed in that city.
360
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,200
What was that experience like for you?
361
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,360
Well, I think that type of…
362
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,400
That type of operation could be described
as senseless violence.
363
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:11,720
That is, that it's totally meaningless.
364
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,440
But I'm not going to get into that.
365
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,160
I don't know what goes on in the minds
of those jihadist organizations.
366
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,160
I don't share their beliefs,
367
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:24,680
which are basically based on the idea
368
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:29,720
that any citizen, man or woman,
who has voted for a particular government,
369
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,000
whether in Paris or London,
370
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,560
is a collaborator and is accountable
371
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:37,680
for the actions
372
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,440
that these different governments
have carried out
373
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,680
in Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, or Pakistan.
374
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,960
That's what I think.
I don't agree with senseless violence.
375
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,160
But did you see those attacks
and think, "This is reprehensible"?
376
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:54,760
I'll repeat what I just said.
377
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,600
That doesn't fit, at all,
with my way of thinking.
378
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,040
I don't understand it.
379
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:02,680
As much as they try to justify--
380
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,360
And I'm talking here
about religious extremists.
381
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,640
When they say
that any citizen is a justifiable victim,
382
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,720
I think that's absolutely insane.
383
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,920
That's the religious extremists' opinion.
384
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,320
Let me ask you,
what's the difference between
385
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,120
killing for your God
and killing for your homeland?
386
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:28,760
Killing… To me…
387
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:30,600
I don't think…
388
00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,760
Not you nor anyone else…
389
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,520
has ever heard me say
that killing is good.
390
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:39,280
Never.
391
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,520
- [birds chirping]
- [sheep bleating]
392
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:44,600
[breeze blowing]
393
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,680
[Josu] I come from
a humble, working-class family.
394
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,280
Both my mother and my father came
from a farming background.
395
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,880
Ours was
a very traditional Catholic family.
396
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,120
Since I was a kid
I was practically forced to--
397
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,200
Well the usual, to go to mass on Sundays.
398
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,200
It's kind of… That's the expectation.
399
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,920
They were religious, and they thought
their family should think like them.
400
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:19,880
Were you a believer?
401
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,840
What would you call a believer?
We were basically forced to repeat things.
402
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,200
I'm a believer,
but I don't believe in God.
403
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,920
Since the beginning,
humans have believed in something.
404
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,520
Your beliefs are one thing.
Your religion is another.
405
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,200
What do you believe in?
406
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,080
I believe in my surroundings,
in what I see, in nature…
407
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:43,400
[clears throat]
408
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:44,800
…and in human beings.
409
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:48,840
You learned the ten commandments,
I'm sure.
410
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,400
I had to. I went to a religious school.
411
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,360
Have you broken many of those commandments
by being an ETA member?
412
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:58,320
By being a member?
413
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,480
If I wasn't religious
when I was in the ETA,
414
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,680
I didn't break any rules.
I don't believe that's possible.
415
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,440
The seventh commandment,
"Thou shalt not steal."
416
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:09,520
Now that you mention it,
417
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,600
I didn't even know
the seventh commandment was "don't steal."
418
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:13,520
And?
419
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:15,560
Have you broken it or not?
420
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,400
What's that got to do with it?
I've broken it, obviously.
421
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,800
- And "Thou shalt not kill"?
- I didn't break it.
422
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,640
How'd you find out about ETA?
423
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,200
ETA, during the time of its inception,
424
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,040
[clears throat]
425
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:36,280
at the end of the '50s…
426
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,920
It was sometimes big news,
and it was in the papers.
427
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:41,760
That's how we heard about it.
428
00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:46,520
So there was that
and, of course, what we heard at home.
429
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,120
Is that how you heard about it?
430
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,360
Like, "So-and-so from the village
has joined ETA" or…?
431
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,520
Yes, obviously.
Things like that were said.
432
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,760
Then I realized that the only way…
433
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:03,840
the only valid way that existed
434
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,600
to stand up to the system
that was oppressing us,
435
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,240
that didn't even let us breathe,
436
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,760
was something recently started.
437
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:13,320
And that was ETA.
438
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,000
At that moment in time,
439
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,720
I was 17 years old.
Somebody from my circle of friends said,
440
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,520
"Look, I'm in ETA.
Do you want to join ETA?" And I said yes.
441
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,000
CIVIL GUARD - POLICE CHECKPOINT
442
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,080
[menacing ambient music playing]
443
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:39,720
CIVIL GUARD TRAFFIC OFFICER SHOT TO DEATH
444
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,960
ONE ASSAILANT WAS KILLED
BY THE CIVIL GUARD
445
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,040
[music fading]
446
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,080
You joined ETA in the year 1968,
447
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,760
and shortly thereafter
448
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,040
came the first fatality
from an ETA attack,
449
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:55,400
which was police officer José Pardines.
450
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,120
During that time,
451
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,800
did you think that killing was
a line that should not be crossed?
452
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:10,160
No, because a very significant aspect
of the Basque people, men and women,
453
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,920
was to stand up to
the system that was oppressing us.
454
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,680
So we needed to use any means necessary.
455
00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:18,800
So, well…
456
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:19,920
Violence included.
457
00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:22,600
Any means necessary.
458
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:26,200
That wasn't just what ETA thought,
or what I thought.
459
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,280
It's what many, many people thought.
460
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,960
Shortly after the death
of Officer Pardines,
461
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,760
the first member of ETA also died.
462
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,960
He was the person who had killed Pardines,
Txabi Etxebarrieta.
463
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,640
So, when you saw that happen
to a fellow ETA member,
464
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,840
did you consider giving up
your own life too, for your homeland?
465
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,280
The moment you join ETA,
466
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:59,600
you know the consequences.
And there will be consequences.
467
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,840
So dying is a real possibility.
468
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:06,960
[Jordi] For your country.
469
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:09,840
For certain ideas, yes.
470
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,920
Did you receive
military training from ETA?
471
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:16,560
Yes.
472
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:18,760
[Jordi] What did it consist of?
473
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:23,480
Well, back then, not much.
474
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,840
Not much, because in those days,
475
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,520
and I'm referring to
the early days after its inception,
476
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,760
ETA was divided into four fronts.
477
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,320
The political front, the military front,
478
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,520
the workers' front,
and the cultural front.
479
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,120
Military training wasn't necessary
for us at that time
480
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,760
because we weren't
part of the military front.
481
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,440
There was basic instruction,
which consisted of making, uh,
482
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,520
improvised explosives,
483
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:52,720
Molotov cocktails,
484
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,800
the basic mechanics and use of explosives,
485
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,920
and also the operation
and use of handguns.
486
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,400
So they taught you how to shoot?
487
00:28:06,120 --> 00:28:07,840
If you can call that teaching.
488
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,120
It was more
just showing us how a gun works.
489
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,240
We were part of the cultural front,
so we learned how to use a firearm.
490
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,600
You took one or two shots,
and that was that.
491
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,000
[menacing ambient music playing]
492
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:35,800
[music fades]
493
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,960
[Jordi] When did they
give you your first gun?
494
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,360
The first weapon I touched,
not that they gave me but that I touched,
495
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:46,200
I must have been…
496
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:48,960
eighteen or nineteen years old.
497
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,440
And it was just to see how it worked.
498
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,920
After that, the first weapon I owned,
499
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,000
it was…
500
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,560
It must have been back in 1971,
and ETA didn't give me my first weapon.
501
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,080
And when I fled and went into exile
502
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,200
in Euskal Herria,
in the Northern Basque Country,
503
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,680
in Iparralde,
504
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,560
I was in the political front.
505
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,240
In those days, only people
in the military front carried weapons.
506
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,880
So I knew I was at risk.
507
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,400
Because I was crossing
the border illegally
508
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:30,680
to do my political work.
509
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,080
And I stress, "political,"
510
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,600
in the Southern Basque Country.
511
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,480
Because of that, I bought a gun.
512
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,040
I bought a gun off of a smuggler,
513
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,200
a Basque smuggler
who sold me a gun made in Bayonne.
514
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:45,640
MAB, that was the brand.
515
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,800
- [Jordi] MAP?
- MAB. M-A-B.
516
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,840
Manufacturer d'armes
de Bayonne, in French.
517
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,920
Gun Manufacturers of Bayonne.
518
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,480
A 7.65 caliber. It cost me 500 francs.
519
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,840
Because the organization's weapons
were meant exclusively
520
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,960
for the members of the military front.
521
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,960
How many times did you use a weapon?
522
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,400
- In my life?
- [Jordi] Mm-hmm.
523
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,120
Well… sometimes.
524
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,560
But the times that I have used one,
525
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,280
it's always been in self-defense.
526
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,760
Were you a member of any cells?
527
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:23,200
Yes.
528
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:24,960
[Jordi] Which ones?
529
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,320
Well, one was…
530
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:27,960
- [Jordi] Just one?
- No…
531
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,440
Well, at several different points in time,
you know? Yes.
532
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,120
What was your cell's name?
533
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,160
It didn't have a name.
534
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,040
Some cells had a name,
or they were given names later.
535
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:44,640
[Jordi] Where were they based?
536
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,800
Well, one of them was
a traveling operation.
537
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,280
Another was in Vizcaya.
538
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:52,840
And what year was this?
539
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,440
The '70s.
540
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,120
Did you take part in
any attacks with fatalities?
541
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,040
Yes.
542
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,640
[Jordi] Can you tell us which ones?
543
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,960
Well, yes, I can tell you.
544
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:06,080
Not directly,
545
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:07,640
but indirectly.
546
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,280
I wasn't part of the actual cell,
547
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,360
but I helped with the planning
for the Carrero Blanco attack.
548
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:15,120
And, uh…
549
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,880
And another operation,
the mayor of Galdakao.
550
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,640
[Jordi] ETA assassinated him?
551
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,480
ETA killed him and claimed it, obviously.
552
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:35,120
MAYOR OF GALDAKAO MURDERED
WHEN HE LEFT HIS HOUSE YESTERDAY MORNING
553
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,960
[Jordi] The fact that you participated
in the attack on Carrero Blanco is
554
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,240
a story that's already well known.
555
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:46,320
But we had no idea about your involvement
in the murder of the mayor of Galdakao.
556
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,120
What role did you play
in that particular attack?
557
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,640
The one I had to play.
558
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:51,800
[Jordi] And that was?
559
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,000
Whatever it was.
560
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,720
I was involved with that cell
to carry out an operation,
561
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,720
which would result in
a person being killed.
562
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,760
[Jordi] Were you responsible
for the shooting?
563
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:04,800
No.
564
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,280
Would you have pulled the trigger,
if you were?
565
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:08,760
At the time, yes.
566
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,640
[Jordi] I think the attack on the mayor
of Galdakao was in 1976.
567
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,080
Franco was already dead.
568
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,800
[Josu] I don't know exactly, but yes.
I don't know exactly, but that sounds…
569
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,760
The system, as we've always said,
570
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,680
the fascist government had not made
even the smallest steps
571
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,840
towards what would later be called…
572
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,200
Uh, it was called…
573
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:36,760
the reform.
574
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:39,840
So we pressured the government.
575
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,200
ETA put out not one,
but several statements…
576
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,760
And these statements said
that they needed to resign from office
577
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,360
or they would be considered
accomplices to the system.
578
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:51,880
That was the threat--
579
00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,360
It wasn't a threat. It was an analysis
of the political situation.
580
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,000
As unelected representatives,
they were participating
581
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,200
in the repression and the suffering
of the Basque people.
582
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,000
I see that as a threat.
583
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:07,960
You can see it how you want,
584
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,160
but that's how it was.
585
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,080
And they all knew about it.
586
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,680
They were so well-informed
that many of them had bodyguards.
587
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,360
- They had bodyguards?
- Yes.
588
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,040
- [Jordi] And the mayor of Galdakao?
- Yes.
589
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:25,640
- [Jordi] Did he have a bodyguard?
- Yes.
590
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,480
[Jordi] The other fatal attack
which you've admitted to participating in
591
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,360
is the murder of the president
of the Francoist government,
592
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,200
Luis Carrero Blanco, in the year 1973.
593
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:42,480
{\an8}OGRO (GILLO PONTECORVO, 1979)
594
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,080
[officer 1, over radio] Ask if
anything has happened to the president.
595
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,640
[officer 2] The officers
in the other car have been injured,
596
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,400
and we are trying to locate
the president's car.
597
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,360
[officer 3] It looks like
the car on the roof is the president's.
598
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,400
- It looks like he's dead.
- [sirens blaring]
599
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,280
[tense ambient music playing]
600
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,040
TERRORISTS IDENTIFIED,
PART OF SO-CALLED "MILITARY FRONT"
601
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,080
[Jordi] In January 1972,
602
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,080
three tons of explosives were stolen
from the munitions depot in Hernani.
603
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,040
They would later be used in that attack.
Were you involved in the robbery?
604
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:25,960
Yes.
605
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,440
And later, were you involved
in the attack on Luis Carrero Blanco?
606
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:36,920
Not directly because I wasn't
part of the so-called… Txikia Cell.
607
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:41,520
But I was involved
608
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,080
in certain preparatory phases
and planning aspects
609
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,240
for the operation against Carrero Blanco.
610
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:48,280
[Jordi] Specifically?
611
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,400
Well, I just told you.
612
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:51,320
The robbery?
613
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:52,840
Obviously.
614
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:53,920
Anything else?
615
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:56,560
Well, technical stuff,
616
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,120
such as transporting material
or other technical details.
617
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,120
That operation wasn't supposed to turn out
the way it did.
618
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,960
Before Carrero Blanco was named president,
619
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,360
ETA's intention with that operation was
to kidnap him.
620
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,160
So we could negotiate for the freedom
of political prisoners, men and women.
621
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:20,880
What happened next?
622
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,360
When everything was ready,
all the information prepared and reviewed,
623
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,080
and the logistics in place,
624
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,440
Carrero Blanco was
unexpectedly named president.
625
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:37,680
And that meant
626
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,920
we would be encountering
much tighter security details.
627
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,800
So the cell that was in charge
of this specific operation,
628
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:47,400
the one to kidnap him…
629
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,560
Well they had to adapt.
They had to conform their plans.
630
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:56,560
You were already settled
631
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,080
in the French Basque Country
in the early '70s.
632
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,920
And there, an attempt was made
on your life
633
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,360
by the extreme right-wing group
Batallón Vasco Español,
634
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:07,000
Basque Country Battalion.
635
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:09,880
I think it was June 1975.
636
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,040
- Do you remember what happened?
- Yes.
637
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,080
I remember that day vividly.
638
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,880
At the time, my wife was in the kitchen.
639
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,640
I was sitting in the bed,
writing, instead of at the table.
640
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,720
And my eldest son, who was
about a year old, just over a year,
641
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:31,680
was lying on the bed, next to me.
642
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,800
And my daughter,
who had just been born, was in a room
643
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,120
that faced the side of the house
where my car was parked.
644
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,840
I went immediately to the room
where the explosion came from,
645
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,240
the room where my youngest daughter
was lying in her crib.
646
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,880
And, well, it was covered
in shards of glass. Debris was everywhere.
647
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,240
She was lucky
that nothing happened to her.
648
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,440
Well, she did have ruptured eardrums,
but nothing more serious than that.
649
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:02,760
Although that was serious enough.
650
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,880
She was saved
because the bed was higher than the crib,
651
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,560
and all the glass
from the explosion swept over her.
652
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:11,280
So after that,
653
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,560
we went out through the back door
because the entrance was on fire.
654
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,800
And when we got outside,
I saw that the car was on fire.
655
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,120
It was wrecked,
and next to it there was a body.
656
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,000
Who was it?
657
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:30,160
It was the body of one of the members
of the organization who planted the bomb.
658
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,640
He had planted the bomb with the intention
of detonating it the next day,
659
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,080
when I'd be taking the car with my family.
660
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,200
How did you feel when you realized
661
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,640
one of your children could've died
in that attack?
662
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:46,000
Well, we could have all died.
663
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,280
What did I feel? Well…
664
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,400
that they were victims of…
665
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,920
in this case… They would have been
victims of… or they were…
666
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,520
They would have been,
and they were, obviously,
667
00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:00,720
victims of an attack
by the Spanish government.
668
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:07,720
Did it cause you to have second thoughts
about the bombs ETA would later place,
669
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,560
that would put other people
in the same situation your family was in?
670
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,000
Obviously. I mean…
671
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:16,720
Armed violence…
672
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:19,520
for me,
673
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,360
and-- and for ETA,
674
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,960
armed violence has never been
a goal, in and of itself.
675
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:27,360
Never.
676
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,400
But decades and decades of armed violence
677
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,480
have produced countless victims
on both sides.
678
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:44,480
Permanent victims, I mean,
victims with irreversible damage.
679
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:47,440
And I think
680
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:49,520
that those victims…
681
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:53,200
should be acknowledged.
682
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,880
And the confrontation, the conflict…
683
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,240
Well, it has resulted in us…
684
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:08,800
basically forgetting,
685
00:39:09,720 --> 00:39:13,560
basically losing sight of
the-- the intentions behind it all.
686
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,480
They've been obscured by…
687
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,680
by the twisted consequences
of this spiral of violence,
688
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:23,760
committed by both sides,
689
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,080
that just increased and increased.
690
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,040
And that spiral of violence
has driven all of us,
691
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:36,600
men and women,
692
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:40,080
on both sides, to become mutually…
693
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,320
to become mutually numb
to other people's suffering,
694
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,000
to their pain and suffering.
695
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:47,080
Did that happen to you?
696
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:48,560
Obviously.
697
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,680
But that was more
in the aftermath, I think.
698
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:53,920
Because in that moment,
699
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,120
when you're in the middle
of that violence…
700
00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:59,480
somehow it…
701
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:02,280
it somehow prevents you…
702
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:07,880
from considering the ethical aspects,
from being compassionate to others,
703
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,080
to your opponent's suffering.
704
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,800
And I'm talking about both sides.
705
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,840
I mean, there's no empathy
for the other person's suffering.
706
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,640
There's no effort
to put yourself in their shoes.
707
00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:23,880
And the other side
doesn't consider that either.
708
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,680
Have you ever celebrated someone's death?
709
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,040
Absolutely not. Never.
710
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,600
Some members of ETA
have admitted celebrating attacks.
711
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:34,400
Have you ever celebrated an attack?
712
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,000
No. No.
713
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:37,960
The only death I've ever celebrated--
714
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,680
I'm not sure about Carrero Blanco, maybe.
715
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,040
Definitely Franco.
716
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,360
[in Spanish] My fellow Spaniards,
717
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,560
Franco… has died.
718
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,000
[eerie ambient music playing]
719
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,840
[Jordi] Franco's death did not satisfy
ETA's pursuit of their objectives.
720
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:03,160
Quite the opposite,
if we take the numbers into account.
721
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:06,240
In 1979, 80 deaths.
722
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,200
In 1980, 98 deaths.
723
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,720
Almost two people killed a week.
724
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,360
What did you want to achieve
with all these murders?
725
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,920
What ETA wanted to do,
wanted to "achieve,"
726
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,040
to use your words,
727
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,760
at that time, was to bring
the Spanish government to the table
728
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,280
in order to initiate conversations.
729
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,760
That would allow the conflict
to be resolved through negotiation.
730
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,400
So you used dead bodies
to pressure the Government to negotiate.
731
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,960
Obviously, to destabilize the Government
732
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,120
so that they would consider us and think,
733
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,800
"Well, in order to prevent
more deaths from happening,
734
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,160
let's see what it is…
735
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,280
what it is that these people really want,
736
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,240
these people causing these deaths."
737
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:01,120
"What is it that they want?"
738
00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:03,800
"Let's go knock on their door."
739
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:07,800
Weren't you troubled by the fact
740
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:12,280
that the organization you were part of
had killed 98 people in one year?
741
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,600
I'm telling you,
it's not about being troubled.
742
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:17,320
And, I'm telling you--
743
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:18,720
[Jordi] I'm using the same word
744
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:20,840
you used to describe
the attack on La Peineta.
745
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,840
[Josu] I've always thought
those deaths could've been avoided.
746
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,360
[tense ambient humming]
747
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:29,320
[Jordi] Were you friends with Yoyes?
748
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,920
[Josu] I don't know if you could say
we were friends, but, yes, I knew her.
749
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,400
María Dolores González Catarain, Yoyes,
750
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,040
she was the first woman to lead ETA.
751
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,080
She ended up leaving
the organization in 1979,
752
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,440
and fled to Mexico.
753
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:47,760
According to her friend,
754
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,760
you and others went to say goodbye
before she fled to Mexico. Is that true?
755
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,320
Yes, along with others who also went,
756
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:56,400
I saw her.
757
00:42:57,240 --> 00:42:58,240
Not only then.
758
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,760
I was with Yoyes in Mexico too.
759
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:04,880
[Jordi] When was that?
760
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,680
I don't remember exactly,
but when she was in Mexico.
761
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:10,280
When she was an exile in Mexico?
762
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,200
- Yes.
- [Jordi] After she had left ETA.
763
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:13,440
Yeah.
764
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,160
So even though Yoyes had left the group,
765
00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:19,520
you went to Mexico and met with her.
766
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,080
Of course. We had
lunch, dinner, went for walks…
767
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,360
Yes.
768
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,560
ETA assassinated Yoyes
769
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,200
on the 10th of September 1986,
770
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,800
in the main square of her town,
while she was with her son.
771
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,000
She was 32 years old.
772
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,800
[somber music swelling]
773
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,960
YOYES TRAITOR
774
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,000
YOYES SNITCH
775
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,680
[Jordi] How did you feel
when Yoyes was killed?
776
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:50,760
[music fades]
777
00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:53,640
It was different, it was--
778
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:58,160
I don't know. It's very hard to express
how I felt at that time. Very hard.
779
00:43:58,840 --> 00:43:59,760
I…
780
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,880
I felt, and I feel, deep sorrow
781
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,160
because, as I've already said,
782
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:12,920
I knew her, and we had
a relationship, well sort of.
783
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,000
[clears throat]
784
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:16,800
But at that time…
785
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,040
ETA's leadership at the time
786
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:24,080
considered
787
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:26,080
uh, that…
788
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,800
the choice that Yoyes had made
789
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,280
by getting in touch with the officials
of the Spanish Ministry of the Interior…
790
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:39,320
Well, it's obvious that when she decided
to negotiate an agreement
791
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,400
or make a deal with the enemy
about a number of things,
792
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,560
it meant that she became part of
a divisive policy of reintegration,
793
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,200
put forward by the government,
794
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:50,720
the government of Felipe González.
795
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:54,080
Crossing a line, so to speak,
796
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,040
contacting someone
from the Ministry of the Interior…
797
00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:00,040
Was that why Yoyes was killed?
798
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,880
[Josu] What was obvious is
that the organization…
799
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,400
thought that it was necessary
to cut out the cancer, so to speak,
800
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,080
that came from her choice,
801
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,360
considering that she was…
802
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,680
a… very important figure,
individually speaking, I mean.
803
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,040
Did you take part in that decision?
804
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:20,960
No.
805
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,200
[Jordi] I want to read
from Yoyes's personal diary.
806
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:30,200
"I, María Dolores González Catarain,
declare that I have been threatened by ETA
807
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,120
when they found out my intentions
of returning from exile
808
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,400
to live in Southern Euskadi
with my family."
809
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:41,280
"It is unacceptable that an organization
which considers itself revolutionary uses
810
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,880
fascist or Stalinist tactics
with people who were once members
811
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:46,320
of that organization."
812
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,640
As Yoyes wrote in her letter,
did ETA use fascist tactics with her?
813
00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,640
No. I don't consider
them to be fascist tactics,
814
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,680
but rather the consequences
of a political cause.
815
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,440
Has the occasion ever arisen…?
816
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,120
Have you ever bumped into
one of Yoyes's family members?
817
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:06,040
No.
818
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,280
If you could say something to them,
what would you say?
819
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,520
That they have my deepest sympathies.
820
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:21,400
[Jordi] In 1988, Yoyes's sister said
that ETA had sentenced her to death
821
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,600
just for thinking differently.
822
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,200
[Josu] I'm deeply sorry to say that
823
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,880
I don't share that opinion because
824
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,040
I don't think ETA ever killed
anyone who didn't share their ideals.
825
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,280
It-- It would've been because,
one way or another,
826
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:44,760
the person was collaborating
with the oppressor
827
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,720
or collaborating with oppressive actions
828
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,040
against the pro-independence left.
829
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,920
Do you think
that any political cause justifies murder?
830
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,440
Uh, listen, killing is not okay.
831
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,440
Neither this death or any other
would have happened
832
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,640
if the government hadn't ignored
833
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,080
the demands of a very significant segment
of the Basque population.
834
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:16,320
But the only response received
was oppression.
835
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,520
Allow me to clarify what you mean
836
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,680
by "a significant part"
of the Basque population.
837
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:22,720
[Josu] Okay.
838
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,480
Election results at the time showed that,
839
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:28,640
in some respects,
840
00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:31,560
the pro-independence
Basque left was represented,
841
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:35,920
but its most well-known party,
Herri Batasuna,
842
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,760
never got more than
15 or 16 percent of the vote.
843
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,560
That wasn't exactly a very large turnout.
844
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,360
It's a very significant segment.
I stand by what I said.
845
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:49,760
When you talk about the Basque people,
846
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,560
maybe you should qualify.
847
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,120
"One segment" of the Basque population.
848
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:55,560
[Josu] Yes, because, in this case,
849
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,120
it should be defined regionally too.
850
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,000
It shouldn't just be based on
851
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,440
which ever political party you align with.
It should also be based on your region.
852
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,120
[Jordi] Let's say that, percentage-wise--
853
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:09,720
[Josu] That's what I'm saying.
854
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,000
[Jordi] …the majority
of the Basque population
855
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,560
have never supported ETA's ideology
across the board in elections.
856
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,640
So, do you think
Yoyes' assassination was a mistake?
857
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,040
I think that, at that time,
as a member of the organization,
858
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,400
I… well, I complied
with the group's decision,
859
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,000
a decision that was made
for political reasons. That's it.
860
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:37,920
[somber ambient music playing]
861
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:56,800
[Jordi] Do you know
how to make a car bomb?
862
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:57,720
No.
863
00:48:58,960 --> 00:48:59,800
No.
864
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,200
In just two years, from 1986 to '87,
865
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,280
four car bombs caused 49 deaths.
866
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,080
Ten of those killed were children.
867
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:13,960
Were you part
of ETA's leadership at the time?
868
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:15,440
No.
869
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,400
[Jordi] Not the political
or military fronts?
870
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,920
I wasn't, no. I was
in the international branch.
871
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,960
That wasn't part of the leadership?
872
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:23,880
No.
873
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:26,640
[Jordi] Or the political leadership?
874
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:27,560
No.
875
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,240
The international branch
isn't related at all
876
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,480
to the rest of the branches
in the organization.
877
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:34,840
Who did you report to?
878
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,160
Well… to people in the ETA leadership.
879
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:43,800
Did you have any second thoughts at all,
880
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:48,720
knowing that the use of such methods
could result in many unintended victims?
881
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,680
I-- I don't think anyone knew
that there would be unintended victims.
882
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:54,840
Who didn't know?
883
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,160
When you change your tactics,
884
00:49:58,240 --> 00:50:00,920
no one knows
if that change could suddenly mean
885
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,400
that there will be unintended victims.
886
00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:05,920
- But it happened so soon.
- [Josu] Well, yes.
887
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,200
- [Jordi] So soon after…
- Yeah, exactly.
888
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,960
I don't know exactly if it was
the first car bomb or the second,
889
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:13,600
but by that point
there were already victims.
890
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,720
- [Josu] Yes, but there's…
- They had nothing to do with ETA's cause.
891
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,160
[Jordi] And I don't like
to distinguish between deaths,
892
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:20,080
but ETA does.
893
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,720
Uh, well, no,
because it's reprehensible to do that.
894
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,480
If anyone has, how do I put it?
895
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:29,880
If anyone has distinguished
between victims,
896
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:34,200
then it's been the Government. Here's
an example, off the top of my head--
897
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:35,120
And ETA didn't?
898
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:36,240
Never.
899
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:41,680
Did they lessen the victims? Yes. But, no,
they never distinguished between them.
900
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:43,880
For example,
901
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,600
I can think of the attack
that was against…
902
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,760
I… don't think he was
president yet. It was Aznar.
903
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,000
A person died in that attack.
904
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,920
I don't know
if they were at the door… Someone died.
905
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,360
Press releases condemned the attack,
906
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:03,840
but that person was not mentioned.
907
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,120
Yes, they said
that someone had died, but that's all.
908
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,240
So they did distinguish
between the victims.
909
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:13,520
Because who got all the attention?
Aznar, in that case.
910
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:17,800
Someone was killed in the Aznar attack,
but it was barely mentioned.
911
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:19,320
The thing is,
912
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,800
the pro-independence left
did not distinguish between victims.
913
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,160
It has been done, but not by the ETA.
914
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:30,760
Do you remember
what happened on the 19th of June 1987?
915
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:36,600
No… The 19th of June 1987.
916
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:39,720
No, not really.
917
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:45,640
That year… no. I mean,
a lot of things happened that year.
918
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:48,080
I-- I don't remember that exact date.
919
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,280
- Hipercor.
- Ah, of course, yes.
920
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:54,000
[dispatcher] Hello. Yes?
921
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:55,720
- [man] Good afternoon.
- Good afternoon.
922
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:57,400
[man] I'm calling on behalf of ETA.
923
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:58,320
JUNE 19TH
924
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,920
The Hipercor on Meridiana Ave.
will explode at 3:30 p.m.
925
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,920
People should definitely leave
the parking garage.
926
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,760
- [dispatcher] 3:30 p.m.?
- 3:40 p.m.
927
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,520
Everyone should leave, especially
from the garage. But no cars.
928
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:10,680
Long live Euskadi.
929
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,440
[sirens blaring]
930
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,160
- [crowd clamoring]
- [officers shouting]
931
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,160
I'm surprised you don't remember.
932
00:52:29,240 --> 00:52:31,200
No… No.
933
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:32,800
Well, why would I? I mean--
934
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,840
- Well, because of its importance.
- Yes, okay, but…
935
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:38,920
I can tell you other dates
I remember from that same year.
936
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:40,640
Like…
937
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,040
when there was, I think it was,
the biggest raid
938
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:51,840
since the Vel' d'Hiver Roundup
in 1944 in Paris, in France.
939
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:53,680
I remember that date.
940
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:00,160
Uh, but there are so many dates…
941
00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:03,920
Li-- Like you said, it was important.
I know you're right about that.
942
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,880
Because of the repercussions.
943
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,520
And because of how everything went down.
944
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,280
Uh, well, I-- I should've remembered it.
945
00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:19,720
What did you think when you realized
ETA had murdered 21 people,
946
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,240
including four children, in a supermarket
947
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:24,560
in a working-class neighborhood
of Barcelona?
948
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:29,320
What do I think? Well,
949
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,120
uh, that-- that those repercussions, well,
950
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,160
they were caused
by a mistake made by the organization.
951
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:38,200
Hipercor was a mistake?
952
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:40,680
I think so.
953
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:44,880
I consider it to be a mistake…
954
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:48,680
because of…
955
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:51,040
uh, the fact that--
956
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,440
that the leadership of ETA
957
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:57,360
put their trust in…
958
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,680
a government, an administration,
959
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:06,440
and that government had a role,
which was to protect its citizens.
960
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,520
And despite ETA having given two warnings
961
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:11,200
so that they would evacuate,
962
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:12,480
they didn't evacuate.
963
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,200
It reached a point
where the government was condemned
964
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:19,920
for having failed
in their civil responsibilities.
965
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,280
Because the role of the government is
to protect its citizens.
966
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:26,960
Uh, especially in a case like this where…
967
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,760
uh, where they had been given
two warnings about a bomb
968
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,360
that was in a supermarket building
where there were…
969
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,920
um, whe-- where there were
hundreds of people.
970
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:39,880
Hundreds.
971
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:44,800
Let me see if I understand.
972
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,360
Was this a mistake made by ETA or not?
973
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,040
Come on now.
974
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:54,120
I said it's a mistake, in terms of
ETA's assessment of the situation.
975
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,800
So they fell into the trap.
They fell into the Government's trap.
976
00:54:59,920 --> 00:55:02,080
You think that you've got
it all worked out,
977
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:04,440
that all the bases are covered,
978
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:09,280
like when ETA warned the government
that there was a bomb in the…
979
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,000
I don't know, wherever it was.
980
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,440
You'd think the people responsible
would go to the place and evacuate it.
981
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,480
And this approach had worked up until now.
So why change anything?
982
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:24,240
It was a mistake, a huge miscalculation.
983
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:28,000
It was a major error
that had irreversible consequences,
984
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:32,160
and those consequences would affect
working-class people. That's it.
985
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:35,400
That's it?
All because the police didn't evacuate?
986
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,880
The objective wasn't to kill 21 people.
987
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,440
That happened
because the police didn't evacuate.
988
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:43,520
[Jordi] Come on.
989
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,480
When you put a car bomb
in the parking lot of a supermarket,
990
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,480
there's a high possibility
that it will explode with people there.
991
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,080
That's exactly the mistake.
992
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,680
That's the mistake,
a miscalculation of the consequences
993
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,520
of targeting a place populated
with hundreds or thousands of people.
994
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,560
And on top of that, the fact that--
995
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:09,120
that you're trusting a government
which doesn't carry out its duties.
996
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:15,280
Are you saying that ETA only meant
to cause property damage in the attack?
997
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,800
Exactly. And that's what they said
when they claimed responsibility.
998
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,000
The remains of the explosives
from the car bomb at Hipercor,
999
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:27,720
as well as the shrapnel,
1000
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,800
were mixed with… They found soap residue,
1001
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:36,400
and this soap caused the fire to spread
much farther than it otherwise would have.
1002
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,920
And because of that,
some victims were killed by the fire.
1003
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:40,840
They burned.
1004
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,520
When you prepare a car bomb in that way,
1005
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:50,280
there must be some other motive,
not just to cause property damage.
1006
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,640
You're going a little too far,
and I'll explain why.
1007
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:57,720
If you want to be a terrorist,
1008
00:56:58,560 --> 00:56:59,720
it's very easy.
1009
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,640
ETA's purpose was absolutely not
to carry out terrorist attacks.
1010
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:12,480
Terrorism is what we've seen in London,
Paris, and, closer to home,
1011
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,560
in Madrid in 2004.
1012
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,800
So, ETA's objective…
1013
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:22,760
which was clarified
1014
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:28,760
again and again following the attack,
was that no victims were ever intended.
1015
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:30,120
Never.
1016
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,960
The goal was
to cause damage, financial loss.
1017
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,720
And if the bomb set fire to the,
what do you call it…?
1018
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,920
The-- The warehouse…
Then there would be even more damage.
1019
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:46,680
[Jordi] When we discussed the tactics
of religious extremism earlier,
1020
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,960
you said that it was meaningless
and that it's insane
1021
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,800
to treat any citizen
as a justifiable victim.
1022
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,040
Isn't that the same thing
you did in Hipercor?
1023
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:57,400
No.
1024
00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:58,960
Absolutely not.
1025
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,400
ETA's objective with that operation…
1026
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:05,880
Their objective was made clear.
1027
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,080
And that objective was
to cause property damage.
1028
00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:12,520
By no means…
1029
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,800
In-- In no way whatsoever was
the objective ever to…
1030
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,280
You're going too far when you compare
ETA to religious extremism.
1031
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,520
Whether in Madrid, London, or Syria,
jihadists stand by their actions.
1032
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:29,160
And they go further,
justifying unintended victims.
1033
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,680
The Madrid bombings
resulted in 2,000 victims,
1034
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:34,840
and they would have been happy with more.
1035
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,120
But none of ETA's attacks,
1036
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:39,240
for example, Hipercor…
1037
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:44,320
None of the attacks in ETA's history had
the goal of causing unintended victims,
1038
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:45,440
as you said.
1039
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:47,160
Absolutely not.
1040
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:48,400
But there were.
1041
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:50,480
Clearly, there were.
1042
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:52,360
And we're back to that.
1043
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,120
ETA said it was a mistake.
1044
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,160
How did you feel
in the days following the attack?
1045
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:00,960
[Josu] Really bad. Really bad.
1046
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:09,000
If you could talk to
a survivor of the Hipercor attack,
1047
00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:10,400
what would you say?
1048
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,640
I would say that I am deeply sorry.
1049
00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:16,760
But I keep asking myself
1050
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:19,480
if there is anything
that I could say to this person,
1051
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,160
any empathy that I could show them,
1052
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,840
that would actually do them… any good?
1053
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:27,280
Right?
1054
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,080
It's in the past.
1055
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,000
Is the pain going to be any less?
1056
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,280
They'll probably just tell me
I'm a hypocrite.
1057
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,040
And I'll tell you something else.
1058
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,760
If I was in their situation,
I'd probably say the same thing.
1059
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:45,280
- [birds chirping]
- [breeze blowing]
1060
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:46,600
[sheep bleating]
1061
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,400
On December 11th, 1987,
ETA placed a car bomb
1062
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,920
at the residential barracks
of the police force in Zaragoza,
1063
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,040
which caused 11 deaths,
six of them children.
1064
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,600
This happened six months after Hipercor.
1065
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:14,680
[Josu] Mm-hmm.
1066
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,720
You said the attack
on Hipercor was a mistake.
1067
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:23,160
Was the attack in Zaragoza a mistake?
1068
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:28,200
That's not the way I see it.
1069
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:33,240
If we look at the newspapers,
1070
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:39,400
and we look at the documents
from well before the attack,
1071
01:00:39,960 --> 01:00:43,400
and we focus on the statements
and announcements that ETA made,
1072
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,040
it is repeated several times…
1073
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:51,880
I don't remember the exact date,
1074
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:54,880
but they stated
that, from such and such date,
1075
01:00:55,360 --> 01:01:00,120
not only will the police and military
continue to be targets
1076
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:01,520
but also their barracks.
1077
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,920
So therefore, they requested
1078
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,600
that all the families be evacuated
from these residential barracks.
1079
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:11,840
That was made public.
1080
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,640
But the National Police ignored them.
1081
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:20,160
In fact, they locked themselves
away in their bunkers.
1082
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,000
And the ETA decided
1083
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:27,720
to act in accordance with
their political strategy and analysis,
1084
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:29,640
in which they had publicly declared,
1085
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:33,160
uh, that residential barracks
would become targets.
1086
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,960
So, there were consequences,
which were determined by ETA.
1087
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,120
[somber ambient music building]
1088
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,240
DECEMBER 11TH
1089
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:15,400
[Jordi] Do you find any fault with the
attack on the barracks in Zaragoza?
1090
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,280
The fault I find with it is
that the victims,
1091
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:22,360
uh, were obviously women and…
1092
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,880
and, well, it… was
the children more than anything.
1093
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:27,480
That was the…
1094
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:30,960
the unintended, irreversible,
1095
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,280
and tragic result,
1096
01:02:33,360 --> 01:02:35,440
the dire consequence of that attack.
1097
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:38,640
A-- And obviously I feel deeply sorry
1098
01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:42,240
for those victims who, themselves, had
nothing to do with…
1099
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,680
what it was
that the police barracks represented.
1100
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:52,240
But if you put a car bomb
beside the residential barracks, at night,
1101
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:54,480
when you know
that there are people inside,
1102
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:56,600
that they'll be sleeping,
1103
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:59,840
that the families
of the officers will be there, too,
1104
01:03:00,640 --> 01:03:01,800
sleeping with them,
1105
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:02,760
children,
1106
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:05,200
husbands, wives,
1107
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:09,080
you know what's going to happen.
1108
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,040
I don't know how the group decided on
that course of action.
1109
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,520
I don't know the individuals
who carried out the attack.
1110
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:19,000
But
1111
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:22,080
they would have been aware
of the families.
1112
01:03:22,600 --> 01:03:24,000
Or maybe not.
1113
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:28,040
How could they not be aware
of what might happen?
1114
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:30,920
I can't know what they were thinking,
1115
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,320
the cell who carried that out.
1116
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:39,160
I can't tell you
what was going on in their heads.
1117
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:47,000
What did you think when you saw
the devastation caused by that attack?
1118
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:48,160
It was painful.
1119
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,480
It was painful
and shouldn't have happened.
1120
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:53,720
But,
1121
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:56,080
with this attack in Zaragoza,
1122
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,760
to say ETA had warned
that the families should be evacuated
1123
01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:04,600
from the barracks and that only officers
should be sleeping there overnight,
1124
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:09,520
and that because they didn't evacuate,
well, then that's just what happened,
1125
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:11,920
and in the case of Hipercor,
1126
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:18,280
the fact that the police didn't evacuate
the parking lot also meant,
1127
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:21,800
"Well, if they didn't evacuate,
what could we have done?"
1128
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:23,160
Isn't that cynical?
1129
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:27,240
You're taking things out of context
1130
01:04:27,320 --> 01:04:29,880
and applying your own values
to the situation.
1131
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:33,360
To me,
1132
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,080
it's very clear
what happened at Hipercor was a mistake,
1133
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:39,400
and that's it.
1134
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:41,600
You'll say, "Yes, but the consequences…"
1135
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:44,960
Okay, they were
terrible and irreversible consequences.
1136
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:47,400
When you asked me
about the barracks in Zaragoza,
1137
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:48,520
I gave you context.
1138
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,640
And the consequences were
very serious and painful.
1139
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:56,360
So there's nothing cynical about that.
1140
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:02,840
I admit that I feel deep sorrow
about the fact that those victims
1141
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:03,760
were children.
1142
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:10,480
What if they had been police officers?
1143
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,400
The police force knew their role.
1144
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,320
Wasn't it to save the homeland?
1145
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,960
"Everything for the homeland,"
isn't that what they say?
1146
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:22,560
So when they walk into those barracks,
1147
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,280
especially close to the Basque Country,
1148
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:29,480
where they were sending groups
like the GAR, Rapid Action Groups,
1149
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:31,160
to oppress the Basque people…
1150
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:34,880
It's their job. You told me…
1151
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:37,440
Excuse me, actually, I told you,
1152
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,360
re-- regarding the members of ETA
1153
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:45,000
and whatever happens to them,
whether it's oppression,
1154
01:05:45,760 --> 01:05:49,520
death, or-- or if they died
during an attack,
1155
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:51,080
they're not victims.
1156
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:52,240
Absolutely not.
1157
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:53,480
They're volunteers.
1158
01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,560
And it's the same
for the police force. They're volunteers.
1159
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,400
Or maybe not volunteers,
but they chose their jobs.
1160
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,600
You said earlier that it's reprehensible
to distinguish between victims.
1161
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:07,320
- [Josu] Yes.
- Isn't that what you're doing?
1162
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:11,480
- No. Absolutely not. No. Absolutely not.
- Isn't this just as reprehensible as that?
1163
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:13,520
- You're--
- I'm not distinguishing victims.
1164
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:15,280
- [Jordi] Come on!
- In any way, whatsoever.
1165
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:16,960
You're saying certain victims, well,
1166
01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:18,480
if they're police officers
1167
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,400
or part of the National Police
or the military then…
1168
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:24,960
At that moment, they were targets.
1169
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:29,280
It has nothing to do with distinguishing.
I'm not distinguishing.
1170
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:30,640
I'm not distinguishing at all.
1171
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:33,440
You're saying you feel very sorry
if the victims are kids,
1172
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:36,960
but if they're officers,
then they're the defenders of the country
1173
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:38,600
and so they can die for it.
1174
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:41,360
Yes, but I'm not distinguishing at all.
To me--
1175
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:43,520
That is distinguishing, Mr. Urrutikoetxea.
1176
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:45,280
I don't think it is.
1177
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,640
The Spanish authorities, as you well know,
1178
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,680
want you to be extradited
to be tried for this case,
1179
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,200
and the French authorities seem to agree.
1180
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,560
You're accused of being
a member of ETA's leadership at that time
1181
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,920
and thus complicit in the attack.
1182
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:10,080
Mr. Urrutikoetxea did you give the order
for the attack in Zaragoza?
1183
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:11,840
First, absolutely not.
1184
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:14,800
Second, I wasn't part of ETA's leadership.
1185
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,320
There are police reports
showing that you were a member
1186
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:22,680
of the leadership of ETA at the time,
1187
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:26,160
even statements from companions
like Elena Beloki,
1188
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:28,600
who in her statement refers to you
1189
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:31,800
as part of ETA's leadership
in that year, in '87.
1190
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,960
That's one of the reasons
why police put together that report.
1191
01:07:35,040 --> 01:07:36,600
Her statement doesn't say that.
1192
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:38,080
What does it say?
1193
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:41,160
It says it was possible,
but it isn't a confirmation.
1194
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:45,200
Just like everyone else who accuses me,
1195
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:47,320
be it Soares Gamboa or others.
1196
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:49,720
They all say the same thing.
1197
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:53,040
There's no proof whatsoever
of any kind, anywhere.
1198
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,520
MAY 29TH
1199
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,200
[ominous ambient buzzing]
1200
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,480
[Jordi] In 1991, ETA carried out
another attack
1201
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:06,160
on the residential barracks
of the police, this time in Vic,
1202
01:08:06,240 --> 01:08:09,160
causing ten deaths,
half of which were children.
1203
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:11,720
[buzzing fades]
1204
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:17,320
The people who carried out this attack,
the terrorists who detonated the car bomb,
1205
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:21,640
they pushed it down a ramp
at the barracks in Vic,
1206
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:23,040
and at the end of the ramp
1207
01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:26,240
children could be seen
playing in the courtyard.
1208
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:29,480
Despite this, they decided to push
the rigged car down the ramp.
1209
01:08:30,320 --> 01:08:31,440
I don't know exactly.
1210
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,440
If you say that's what happened,
it-- it must be what happened.
1211
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:37,280
- [Josu] I just don't know.
- That's what witnesses said.
1212
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:39,840
But, yes, that probably happened.
If you say so.
1213
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:42,440
How do you feel about that decision?
1214
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:50,120
If the people who placed the bomb saw
that there were kids,
1215
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:52,200
I think those people were in the wrong.
1216
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:55,720
By people, in this case,
1217
01:08:55,800 --> 01:08:58,080
I mean those
who carried out the operation.
1218
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:01,560
[Jordi] I'm comparing
this attack with Zaragoza,
1219
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,080
where a car bomb was set off
during the night.
1220
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:08,720
You said that because it was night, they
couldn't assess the consequences properly.
1221
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:10,800
- The consequences.
- [Jordi] I disagreed.
1222
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,240
But in this case, it was daytime.
1223
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:15,080
The consequences were much clearer.
1224
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:16,240
We talked about this.
1225
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:23,200
[reporter in French]
José Antonio Urrutikoetxea,
1226
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:24,640
alias Josu Ternera,
1227
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:28,400
was arrested by intelligence services
while he was on his motorcycle.
1228
01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:31,720
Josu Ternera is considered to be
ETA's number one.
1229
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,760
He was involved in the death
of Admiral Carrero Blanco
1230
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,560
and had narrowly evaded French police
1231
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:39,640
in Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle.
1232
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:46,800
[Jordi] After your arrest in 1989,
you spent eleven years in prison.
1233
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:50,880
First you were incarcerated in France.
What were you charged with?
1234
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:56,200
I was arrested in '89 in Bayonne
1235
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:59,240
and charged with
belonging to a criminal organization,
1236
01:09:59,320 --> 01:10:03,480
with the intent to commit
acts of terrorism, or something like that.
1237
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:05,600
It might not be that exact translation,
1238
01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,600
but, anyway, that's
the alleged crime I was tried for.
1239
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:12,840
[in Spanish] French authorities delivered
Josu Ternera, a top-member of ETA,
1240
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:14,160
to Spanish police
1241
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:16,280
at the border crossing near La Junquera.
1242
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:20,040
He is suspected
of leading ETA's international arm
1243
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:25,360
and of being involved in the extortion
of Basque business owners.
1244
01:10:26,480 --> 01:10:29,080
[Jordi] After serving seven years
of your sentence in France,
1245
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:31,960
in 1996, you were extradited to Spain.
1246
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:34,880
You were transferred
to the Alcalá Meco prison,
1247
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:38,720
where you spent another four years,
this time in preventive detention,
1248
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,720
while you were being investigated
for other crimes.
1249
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,800
[Jordi] That same year, ETA kidnapped
prison officer Ortega Lara.
1250
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:50,440
I'd like to know
what your relationship was
1251
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:54,840
with the correctional officers
when you were incarcerated at Alcalá Meco,
1252
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,080
while Ortega Lara was in captivity.
1253
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,360
In general,
their attitude was extremely cold.
1254
01:11:01,440 --> 01:11:02,400
[clears throat]
1255
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:04,840
Excuse me, and very contemptuous.
1256
01:11:05,880 --> 01:11:09,400
Even when all the stuff that happened
with Ortega Lara was over,
1257
01:11:09,480 --> 01:11:11,480
they still had the same attitude.
1258
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:13,520
That's just what they were like.
1259
01:11:13,600 --> 01:11:15,760
To them, we were the enemy.
1260
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:20,640
- ETA also saw officers as the enemy.
- [Josu] Yes, at that time. That's true.
1261
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:22,800
- [Jordi] The facts speak for themselves.
- Yeah.
1262
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:26,680
Ortega Lara was kidnapped
and held captive for 532 days
1263
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,840
inside a tiny pit,
under inhumane conditions.
1264
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:33,120
JULY 1ST
1265
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:35,480
[somber music building]
1266
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:53,680
[crowd applauding, cheering]
1267
01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:00,280
[Jordi] What did you think
when you saw that iconic image
1268
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:02,320
from Ortega Lara's release,
1269
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,320
after a kidnapping
which must've been so terrifying?
1270
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:07,000
What do I think?
1271
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:09,600
I think it must have been
very hard for that person.
1272
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:11,720
Because living in isolation,
1273
01:12:12,440 --> 01:12:14,640
like some of my male
and female companions,
1274
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:19,560
not for 539 days,
but for twenty years or more, well…
1275
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:24,480
I-- I can imagine it must be very tough
living in that type of isolation.
1276
01:12:27,240 --> 01:12:29,760
Would Ortega Lara have died
if he hadn't been found?
1277
01:12:30,760 --> 01:12:31,600
I don't know.
1278
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:36,400
Considering ETA's demand
for prisoners to be transferred closer…
1279
01:12:36,480 --> 01:12:39,800
[Josu] I don't know.
There were demands. There are facts…
1280
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:45,240
From my point of view, it's possible.
1281
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:46,640
It's possible.
1282
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:52,120
I think ETA's objective in that situation,
like you just said, was to exchange him
1283
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:53,320
for other prisoners.
1284
01:12:55,080 --> 01:12:59,200
That might have been the angle,
or any steps towards that outcome.
1285
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:00,840
Then they might have freed him.
1286
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,640
{\an8}[in Basque] Well, we therefore think
1287
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:09,680
{\an8}that the police
as well as many politicians
1288
01:13:09,760 --> 01:13:12,480
{\an8}will praise the use of repression.
1289
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,360
We'd like to give them some advice.
1290
01:13:15,440 --> 01:13:18,600
Be careful about
getting drunk off repression
1291
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:23,640
because there's the inevitable hangover.
1292
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:27,520
A few days after Ortega Lara's release,
1293
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:31,600
and only days after the statement
from a spokesperson for Herri Batasuna,
1294
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:32,800
ETA kidnapped
1295
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:35,920
the People's Party representative
for the town of Ermua,
1296
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:37,360
Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1297
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:39,000
Was that a response?
1298
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:41,560
That's your interpretation.
1299
01:13:42,120 --> 01:13:43,200
[Jordi] What's yours?
1300
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:48,280
A response?
I don't think so, no. I don't know.
1301
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:50,200
I don't know what went through the minds
1302
01:13:50,280 --> 01:13:53,040
of the people who decided
to kidnap Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1303
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:57,320
It doesn't seem
like a logical response, but anyway…
1304
01:13:57,400 --> 01:13:59,640
[Jordi] Was this payback from ETA?
1305
01:13:59,720 --> 01:14:01,160
[Josu] I don't think so.
1306
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:03,400
I don't think so,
because as far as I know…
1307
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:05,480
In my experience,
1308
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:08,360
it's always seemed as if
1309
01:14:08,440 --> 01:14:12,080
the pursuit of retaliation or revenge is
1310
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:16,560
just not a sentiment…
uh, which helps us to advance our project
1311
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:20,760
or our goal
of the reconstruction of Euskal Herria.
1312
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,200
Not in any way, shape, or form.
1313
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:29,320
Uh, plus, revenge and hatred blind you
1314
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,080
and don't allow you
to analyze things properly.
1315
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:35,640
When you heard about the kidnapping,
what did you think?
1316
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,080
Well, I thought…
1317
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:47,120
I-- I didn't really understand it,
honestly. I don't really understand…
1318
01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:51,920
uh, what the objective
of that operation was.
1319
01:14:53,240 --> 01:14:56,280
That's it. I-- I had no information,
so I didn't understand.
1320
01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:59,600
[somber organ music building]
1321
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:02,000
JULY 11TH
1322
01:15:04,480 --> 01:15:07,920
ETA KIDNAPS A TOWN COUNCILOR
AND THREATENS TO MURDER HIM TOMORROW
1323
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:09,600
DEADLINE SET AT 4:00 P.M.
1324
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:11,680
[somber organ music continues]
1325
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:19,720
[Jordi] ETA gave the government
48 hours to move
1326
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:22,320
imprisoned ETA members closer to Euskadi.
1327
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:25,560
Or else they would execute
Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1328
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:27,960
You were incarcerated at the time.
1329
01:15:28,040 --> 01:15:29,560
How did that affect you?
1330
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:34,480
I'll say it again.
With the information I had,
1331
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:38,000
uh, which was extremely limited,
1332
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:39,520
my interpretation is…
1333
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:44,560
I don't know. I didn't see the point
in what they did, and I can't explain it.
1334
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:46,920
During those 48 hours,
1335
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:49,720
did you voice disagreement with ETA?
1336
01:15:50,480 --> 01:15:53,560
It's not about making it public.
Why would I do that?
1337
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:57,920
The fact that I disagreed with them…
and any comments I might have shared,
1338
01:15:58,800 --> 01:16:00,240
or-- or my point of view…
1339
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:05,400
Those are things that I would convey
to whomever I needed to.
1340
01:16:06,440 --> 01:16:08,520
[Jordi] Did you communicate those things?
1341
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:10,240
I did, of course.
1342
01:16:10,320 --> 01:16:13,000
[helicopter whirring]
1343
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:14,400
[whirring continues]
1344
01:16:14,480 --> 01:16:16,680
JULY 12TH
1345
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,120
[Jordi] During those days,
1346
01:16:20,200 --> 01:16:23,960
not only in the rest of Spain
but also in the Basque Country,
1347
01:16:24,040 --> 01:16:28,520
hundreds of thousands of people went out
onto the streets to demand
1348
01:16:28,600 --> 01:16:31,840
that ETA not kill Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1349
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:33,880
Why didn't ETA listen to them?
1350
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:38,080
I think they ignored
what the people were saying,
1351
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:41,200
or they ignored what a segment
of the population was saying.
1352
01:16:42,560 --> 01:16:45,840
When you don't listen to people,
it's because you don't hear them,
1353
01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:47,000
or you don't want to.
1354
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:51,200
Forty-eight hours passed.
1355
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:53,720
It was 4:00 p.m on that Saturday,
1356
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:56,320
and ETA carried out their threat
1357
01:16:56,920 --> 01:16:59,080
and murdered Miguel Ángel Blanco.
1358
01:16:59,160 --> 01:17:01,080
[in Spanish] We've received confirmation…
1359
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:02,160
JULY 13TH
1360
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:04,600
…that Miguel Ángel has been murdered.
1361
01:17:04,680 --> 01:17:06,080
[crowd screaming]
1362
01:17:07,080 --> 01:17:08,720
[chanting] Murderers!
1363
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,560
[chanting] They're not Basques!
They're murderers!
1364
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:14,280
They're not Basques! They're murderers!
1365
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:16,520
[chanting] ETA, shoot me in the head!
1366
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:20,720
ETA, shoot me in the head!
ETA, shoot me in the head!
1367
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:22,800
[chanting fades out]
1368
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:27,520
When you saw that crowd
of Basque people shouting,
1369
01:17:27,600 --> 01:17:29,680
"They're not Basques. They're murderers!"
1370
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:31,920
"ETA, shoot me in the head!"
1371
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:33,080
what did you think?
1372
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:39,720
Well, I think that it's obvious
that there's a segment
1373
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:43,120
of the population, men and women
of the Basque Country,
1374
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:44,960
who did not agree with us.
1375
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:46,400
Instead, they dissented.
1376
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:48,240
That's what I think.
1377
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,640
Even some prior supporters dissented.
1378
01:17:53,480 --> 01:17:55,360
I-- I don't know who was there.
1379
01:17:55,440 --> 01:17:58,360
But a lot of people turned out
to express their disagreement,
1380
01:17:59,440 --> 01:18:03,040
people who, as you said,
may have previously supported us.
1381
01:18:03,120 --> 01:18:03,960
Of course.
1382
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:08,520
Did you know
Francisco Javier García Gaztelu?
1383
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:09,800
- [Jordi] Txapote.
- No.
1384
01:18:09,880 --> 01:18:12,400
- The perpetrator of the murder.
- No. No.
1385
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:17,000
What would you have said
if you had been able to talk to him
1386
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:20,400
during the 48 hours
of Miguel Ángel Blanco's captivity?
1387
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,440
I'd have said
that I didn't think the operation, um…
1388
01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:28,360
should have taken place.
1389
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:30,360
Why not?
1390
01:18:31,280 --> 01:18:32,240
Because…
1391
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:35,360
I think that it was…
1392
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:38,360
a mistake,
1393
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:43,360
politically and morally,
with irreversible consequences,
1394
01:18:43,440 --> 01:18:46,200
and which was not
helpful in any way at all…
1395
01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:48,560
uh, strategically.
1396
01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:51,040
Personally…
1397
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:56,800
I believe the organization,
ETA, was probably working on
1398
01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:58,360
bridge-building at the time,
1399
01:18:58,440 --> 01:19:01,560
ways to find a solution
to the conflict through negotiation.
1400
01:19:02,160 --> 01:19:04,200
Did you consider leaving ETA?
1401
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:07,120
Why?
1402
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:09,120
Because I disagreed with them?
1403
01:19:09,200 --> 01:19:10,040
No.
1404
01:19:10,560 --> 01:19:13,560
{\an8}[in Spanish] Today, the Basque Country saw
something unprecedented
1405
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:15,600
{\an8}yet entirely legal.
1406
01:19:15,680 --> 01:19:17,640
Josu Ternera, ETA's former leader,
1407
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,960
entered the Parliament
to register as a member of parliament.
1408
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:24,320
[female newscaster] Josu Ternera,
one of ETA's heavyweights behind bars,
1409
01:19:24,400 --> 01:19:27,320
returned to prison
after he had been freed for a few hours.
1410
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:34,440
While you were in prison in 1998,
you were elected to the Basque Parliament
1411
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:37,280
as a member
of the Euskal Herritarrok party,
1412
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:39,520
which was another name used by Batasuna.
1413
01:19:41,640 --> 01:19:45,320
But you weren't able to attend
Parliament on a regular basis
1414
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:49,040
until your release
from prison in the year 2000.
1415
01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:51,800
[female newscaster 2]
Josu Ternera was released today.
1416
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:55,480
The Supreme Court ruled
that in France he was already tried
1417
01:19:55,560 --> 01:19:58,080
and sentenced to ten years in prison
for the same crime.
1418
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:01,720
Now that I am free,
I intend to participate
1419
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:06,960
in an ongoing… project in Euskal Herria,
which is that of building Euskal Herria.
1420
01:20:07,040 --> 01:20:09,040
[indistinct speech]
1421
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:15,840
[Jordi] It was startling to see
you in the Basque Parliament.
1422
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:18,880
What were you thinking about
on that day that you took a seat
1423
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:20,960
as a representative of the Basque people?
1424
01:20:22,160 --> 01:20:26,040
Nothing in particular.
Just, well, the people.
1425
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:29,360
By "the people" I mean
the people in my constituency, obviously.
1426
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:31,920
They had elected me.
1427
01:20:32,000 --> 01:20:34,240
And it was my responsibility to do my job
1428
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:37,360
as a representative
of that segment of the population.
1429
01:20:37,880 --> 01:20:39,720
It was my duty and responsibility.
1430
01:20:39,800 --> 01:20:42,000
- …information--
- [loud, distant rumbling]
1431
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:44,080
[reporters panicking]
1432
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:47,440
[Jordi] In the year 2000,
1433
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,080
the same year you became
a member of Parliament,
1434
01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:53,840
ETA intensified their operations
and killed 23 people.
1435
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:57,280
It had been 8 years since ETA had caused
1436
01:20:57,360 --> 01:20:58,960
that many deaths in one year,
1437
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:02,440
and they would never again kill so many
in such a short time.
1438
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:06,600
[in Spanish] Scream.
As long as you scream, you're not killing!
1439
01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:08,600
[Jordi] Among those who were murdered were
1440
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:12,280
politicians, journalists, and businessmen
1441
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:15,360
who had refused to pay
the money that ETA demanded.
1442
01:21:15,440 --> 01:21:17,640
The so-called "revolutionary tax."
1443
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:21,040
Killing people who don't pay you,
1444
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:23,720
isn't that something the Mafia does?
1445
01:21:32,320 --> 01:21:33,480
That's not the point.
1446
01:21:35,440 --> 01:21:37,000
Those deaths were avoidable.
1447
01:21:38,240 --> 01:21:41,600
Those people were involved
in the process, but, as you said,
1448
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:43,920
they accepted the consequences.
1449
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:46,760
And, furthermore, they said so
publicly and openly.
1450
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:49,360
I'll say it again. I think that…
1451
01:21:50,120 --> 01:21:53,800
it's sad, but those were
the consequences of the conflict.
1452
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:58,400
Did you support
this type of revolutionary tax?
1453
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:04,160
The revolutionary tax was necessary
because it was needed
1454
01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:07,400
to continue the struggle
of the pro-independence movement.
1455
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:12,760
After the 23 murders in the year 2000,
1456
01:22:13,440 --> 01:22:15,800
there were Basque elections in 2001,
1457
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:18,000
and Euskal Herritarrok
1458
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:20,680
again put you forward as a candidate.
1459
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:26,680
The party ended up losing seats,
dropping from 14 to 7.
1460
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:29,840
And their percentage of the vote went down
almost nine points.
1461
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:32,760
I have one question.
1462
01:22:33,480 --> 01:22:37,600
I want to know if you chose
to participate in the political process
1463
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:41,320
to end violence
for ethical or for strategic reasons.
1464
01:22:43,560 --> 01:22:44,440
Both.
1465
01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:48,440
First, I realized,
1466
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:51,560
well, actually I'd realized before,
1467
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,160
that we were in the middle
of an oppressive spiral
1468
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:57,040
and the ethical aspects
were not being considered,
1469
01:22:57,120 --> 01:23:00,720
or minimally at best,
and this had consequences.
1470
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:05,680
The insensitivity and disregard,
the lack of empathy from both sides,
1471
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:09,840
that cut both ways, and therefore it was
an important factor to consider.
1472
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:14,440
The other factor was
that, in order to take…
1473
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:17,840
steps towards
a resolution of the conflict…
1474
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:22,040
Those steps… simply couldn't be taken
1475
01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:26,040
by using a strategy
which involved violent confrontation.
1476
01:23:28,040 --> 01:23:30,120
It would have been a total contradiction.
1477
01:23:31,320 --> 01:23:34,200
So on the one hand,
we had ethical concerns,
1478
01:23:34,280 --> 01:23:38,760
or, rather, a lack of ethical behavior
in terms of the confrontation.
1479
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:42,800
And on the other hand,
there was a need to change our strategy.
1480
01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:49,160
In 2002, the Supreme Court summoned you
to make a statement during the proceedings
1481
01:23:49,240 --> 01:23:53,520
for the attack on the police barracks
in Zaragoza in 1987.
1482
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:55,640
You did not attend.
1483
01:23:55,720 --> 01:23:58,520
You fled from Spain
and went back into hiding.
1484
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:10,080
[train whooshing]
1485
01:24:10,160 --> 01:24:12,160
[indistinct conversation]
1486
01:24:18,440 --> 01:24:22,280
[Jordi] While you were in hiding,
you participated in the negotiations
1487
01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:24,920
between ETA and the Spanish government
1488
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:27,080
that started in June in 2005.
1489
01:24:27,920 --> 01:24:30,160
You met for the first time
with the president
1490
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:32,840
of the Socialist Party in Euskadi,
Jesús Eguiguren.
1491
01:24:33,440 --> 01:24:36,440
Is it true that one of the first things
you said to Eguiguren was
1492
01:24:36,520 --> 01:24:38,520
"I'm here to end the violence"?
1493
01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:44,040
That's one of the things
I said to him, among others.
1494
01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:45,000
I told him,
1495
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:49,280
"You and I should do our utmost
to overcome this phase of violence."
1496
01:24:50,280 --> 01:24:52,160
I said we had to find a way out,
1497
01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:56,400
that we couldn't leave this conflict
for future generations to deal with
1498
01:24:56,480 --> 01:24:58,440
and we needed to do
everything in our power
1499
01:24:58,520 --> 01:24:59,960
to put an end to that phase.
1500
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:06,920
You and Jesús Eguiguren met again
in Oslo, in November 2005.
1501
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:11,280
You left Oslo having made the commitment
that there would be a ceasefire
1502
01:25:12,720 --> 01:25:16,920
and that ETA would communicate
this decision publicly.
1503
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:20,040
In September of 2006,
1504
01:25:20,680 --> 01:25:22,520
you met again in Switzerland.
1505
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:24,000
[Josu] Mm-hmm.
1506
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:28,280
[Jordi] And on that occasion,
in addition to Eguiguren and yourself,
1507
01:25:29,360 --> 01:25:33,040
you were accompanied
by another representative from ETA,
1508
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:37,520
whose name is
Xabier López Peña, AKA Thierry.
1509
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:40,320
Was Thierry ETA's leader at that time?
1510
01:25:41,400 --> 01:25:42,960
ETA was never…
1511
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:47,240
Well, it's always been lead more
by groups and collectives, not by leaders.
1512
01:25:48,200 --> 01:25:51,320
- [Jordi] Not by one sole leader.
- No. There wasn't just one leader.
1513
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,960
But, was Thierry part
of the collective leadership of ETA?
1514
01:25:55,840 --> 01:25:58,240
Yes, supposedly, that's why he negotiated.
1515
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:02,520
There was no reason to doubt
that he came on behalf of the leadership.
1516
01:26:02,600 --> 01:26:05,320
Obviously, by that
I mean the leadership of ETA.
1517
01:26:06,680 --> 01:26:10,360
Why did Thierry go to that negotiation,
which took place in Montreux?
1518
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:13,280
I think that, at the time,
1519
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:15,960
that ETA leadership wasn't…
1520
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:20,680
uh, in the right mindset
to enter negotiations.
1521
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:23,160
Rather they were
in the mindset of continuing
1522
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:27,040
wi-- with the political-military conflict,
with the armed violence.
1523
01:26:27,120 --> 01:26:28,360
They were of the opinion
1524
01:26:28,440 --> 01:26:31,520
that the outcomes of the negotiations
would not be sufficient.
1525
01:26:31,600 --> 01:26:33,160
I believed otherwise.
1526
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:36,320
And I realized, at the time,
1527
01:26:37,160 --> 01:26:40,280
uh, that ETA's leadership didn't agree
with what I thought
1528
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:44,200
and that their sights were set
on something else.
1529
01:26:45,480 --> 01:26:46,600
So, I had two options.
1530
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:49,880
One, I continued being a member,
which meant I'd have to comply.
1531
01:26:49,960 --> 01:26:51,440
Or, two, I could leave.
1532
01:26:53,480 --> 01:26:54,600
And that's what I did.
1533
01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:56,520
And you cut all ties?
1534
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:57,440
Absolutely.
1535
01:26:57,520 --> 01:26:59,720
[Jordi] You no longer have contact
with Eguiguren or…?
1536
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:00,680
With no one.
1537
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:05,360
I decided to leave,
to go to a place I knew.
1538
01:27:05,440 --> 01:27:06,320
The Pyrenees?
1539
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:09,440
To the Pyrenees,
to the district of Ariège.
1540
01:27:10,480 --> 01:27:15,360
It's true that ETA opened up
an internal debate between 2007 and 2011
1541
01:27:16,360 --> 01:27:18,920
in order to decide
which direction they were going.
1542
01:27:19,560 --> 01:27:22,400
- [Josu] Yes.
- Basically ETA's path forward.
1543
01:27:22,480 --> 01:27:25,960
Even though you weren't
in the organization, did you take part
1544
01:27:26,040 --> 01:27:27,400
in that internal debate?
1545
01:27:27,480 --> 01:27:29,160
No. Absolutely not.
1546
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:34,560
Over the past two decades,
1547
01:27:34,640 --> 01:27:39,480
ETA's close circles, and ETA itself,
have been under extreme pressure
1548
01:27:39,560 --> 01:27:43,280
from the Spanish police and the military,
and also from court rulings.
1549
01:27:43,360 --> 01:27:45,200
[tense ambient humming]
1550
01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:49,080
ETA's leadership fronts were dropping,
one after the other.
1551
01:27:49,920 --> 01:27:53,240
[in Basque] Long live ETA!
Long live a free Euskal Herria!
1552
01:27:55,000 --> 01:27:59,160
To what extent do you believe
that police pressure influenced ETA
1553
01:27:59,240 --> 01:28:03,680
to the point that they decided
to end the violence indefinitely?
1554
01:28:05,880 --> 01:28:08,320
Well, that's part
of taking control of the story,
1555
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:10,800
what they call
"controlling the narrative."
1556
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:14,800
I mean the government was selling
an image of organization in disarray.
1557
01:28:15,440 --> 01:28:18,920
It's the same in war.
It's psychological warfare.
1558
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:21,600
You have to convince the citizens.
They need to see
1559
01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:24,280
the image of a defeated enemy
in order to lose faith.
1560
01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:27,960
Psychological warfare aside,
1561
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:31,680
don't you think that the pressure
on ETA and their network cornered them?
1562
01:28:31,760 --> 01:28:32,600
I think…
1563
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:35,920
I-- I don't think that was the issue.
1564
01:28:36,440 --> 01:28:38,560
Having two governments on your back
1565
01:28:38,640 --> 01:28:42,480
and, on top of that, all the resources
that they have available…
1566
01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:46,960
Well, obviously, that complicates things
for any organization or any movement.
1567
01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,320
Especially for ETA, being in Europe,
1568
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:53,760
between both the Spanish
and French governments.
1569
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:55,840
And then on the other hand,
1570
01:28:56,440 --> 01:29:00,840
there's the fact that the organization
had always listened to what the people…
1571
01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:03,960
were saying.
1572
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:07,840
The people's point of view had shifted.
1573
01:29:09,400 --> 01:29:12,160
The voice of the public was
no longer in accordance with
1574
01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:15,440
the political-military strategy
that ETA had been using.
1575
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,960
{\an8}ETA has decided to permanently disarm.
1576
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:23,000
ETA calls upon
the governments of Spain and France
1577
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:25,360
to open a direct line of dialogue
1578
01:29:25,440 --> 01:29:29,160
in order to put an end
to the consequences of the conflict
1579
01:29:29,240 --> 01:29:32,160
and to overcome armed confrontation.
1580
01:29:32,240 --> 01:29:35,280
ETA has announced
that it will permanently disarm.
1581
01:29:35,360 --> 01:29:39,640
It is the clearest step towards peace
the terrorist organization has ever taken.
1582
01:29:39,720 --> 01:29:43,720
{\an8}Today we should celebrate
this great victory of democracy.
1583
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:47,040
How did you feel
about that final statement from ETA,
1584
01:29:47,120 --> 01:29:49,760
declaring the definitive end
to the violence?
1585
01:29:49,840 --> 01:29:51,680
Was it a victory or a failure?
1586
01:29:52,480 --> 01:29:54,840
- Not victory or failure.
- What was it?
1587
01:29:56,720 --> 01:29:58,480
I saw it as a necessary step,
1588
01:29:59,760 --> 01:30:02,760
when faced with the reality
of Euskal Herria at the time.
1589
01:30:04,480 --> 01:30:06,520
Did the announcement come too late?
1590
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,800
Not the announcement, no,
but the decision, itself, came too late.
1591
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:18,360
By that decision I mean…
uh, the decision to--
1592
01:30:20,200 --> 01:30:23,480
to put an end to
violent armed conflict, definitively.
1593
01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:26,640
When do you think
the statement should've been made?
1594
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:28,960
In 2005.
1595
01:30:31,680 --> 01:30:35,240
All right. So, then let's fast-forward
to May of 2018,
1596
01:30:35,320 --> 01:30:39,760
when you were the one to read out
that last statement issued by ETA.
1597
01:30:39,840 --> 01:30:40,680
{\an8}"ETA,
1598
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:45,160
{\an8}the Basque socialist revolutionary
organization for national liberation
1599
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:49,440
hereby informs the Basque people
that its journey has ended."
1600
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:52,000
"As a consequence of this decision,
1601
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:57,360
ETA has completely dismantled
all of its structures."
1602
01:30:57,440 --> 01:31:02,280
"ETA was born from the people, and now
it dissolves back into the people."
1603
01:31:02,360 --> 01:31:04,160
"Long live a free Euskal Herria."
1604
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:06,880
- You were no longer part of ETA.
- No.
1605
01:31:07,480 --> 01:31:10,880
Then why did you read
the final statement, ETA's last words?
1606
01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:14,600
I read that statement because
1607
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:18,160
I had a long history as an ETA member
1608
01:31:19,240 --> 01:31:21,960
and as a member
of the pro-independence left.
1609
01:31:22,480 --> 01:31:24,960
That meant that,
whether we wanted to or not,
1610
01:31:25,720 --> 01:31:29,080
uh, we had to come out,
how do you say… unmasked.
1611
01:31:29,160 --> 01:31:30,160
Unmasked.
1612
01:31:32,240 --> 01:31:34,680
That also came
with legal consequences for me.
1613
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:36,360
Obviously.
1614
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:37,720
[Jordi] Why?
1615
01:31:38,320 --> 01:31:41,560
Because I'm reading
a statement from a terrorist organization.
1616
01:31:43,120 --> 01:31:45,240
And who do you suppose does that?
1617
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:49,040
A member of a terrorist organization.
But at that time, I wasn't.
1618
01:31:49,560 --> 01:31:50,680
It wasn't normal.
1619
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:51,840
It wasn't.
1620
01:31:53,040 --> 01:31:54,200
But that was the truth.
1621
01:31:55,040 --> 01:31:59,200
- [birds chirping]
- [sheep bleating]
1622
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:10,200
[Jordi] This year, you'll be turning 72.
1623
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:15,120
You've dealt with death
and near-death experiences for decades.
1624
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:16,800
Do you fear your own death?
1625
01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:18,480
Not at all. That's life.
1626
01:32:24,040 --> 01:32:28,360
Do you think that when the time comes
for you to face death,
1627
01:32:28,440 --> 01:32:31,600
that you'll have any regrets
when you look back on your choices?
1628
01:32:34,480 --> 01:32:36,240
Regrets? I think that
1629
01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:38,400
like any other person,
1630
01:32:40,240 --> 01:32:42,760
I'd probably regret some things.
1631
01:32:42,840 --> 01:32:44,120
For example, I would…
1632
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:46,840
regret
1633
01:32:47,680 --> 01:32:51,120
uh, not having-- not having done more
than I did at the time
1634
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:53,240
in order to…
1635
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:54,160
[sighs]
1636
01:32:54,240 --> 01:32:55,160
…um,
1637
01:32:55,680 --> 01:32:56,760
to end the…
1638
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:01,360
the crazy cycle,
the spiral of violence, much sooner.
1639
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:04,320
I'd regret that because I hadn't…
1640
01:33:05,080 --> 01:33:09,160
I-- I mean, maybe I could have done more
to help stop it sooner.
1641
01:33:11,480 --> 01:33:14,680
In this interview,
you revealed something we didn't know.
1642
01:33:15,360 --> 01:33:16,720
You shared several things,
1643
01:33:16,800 --> 01:33:19,960
but one specifically that we didn't know
was that you had been involved
1644
01:33:20,040 --> 01:33:23,480
in the murder
of the mayor of Galdakao in 1976.
1645
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:25,360
It's a fact we were not aware of,
1646
01:33:25,440 --> 01:33:28,160
and, actually,
you were never tried for it.
1647
01:33:29,480 --> 01:33:32,000
Do you feel
equally responsible for that death?
1648
01:33:32,080 --> 01:33:33,920
Obviously, I do. Yes.
1649
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:36,680
I take responsibility
as much it relates to me,
1650
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:38,600
as a member of ETA at that time.
1651
01:33:40,440 --> 01:33:41,480
Are you saying that
1652
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:46,120
you feel equally responsible
for the deaths caused by ETA too.
1653
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:48,400
I take responsibility for what I did.
1654
01:33:49,560 --> 01:33:52,080
Let's be clear. My actions, what I did.
1655
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:58,200
I take responsibility for what I did
as a member of the organization.
1656
01:34:02,040 --> 01:34:03,960
Please, don't put words in my mouth.
1657
01:34:07,240 --> 01:34:09,720
I would like to say
the name of that mayor,
1658
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:11,760
Víctor Legorburu,
1659
01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:13,640
and also
1660
01:34:14,280 --> 01:34:15,960
the person who was escorting him,
1661
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:21,800
a local police officer
named Francisco Ruiz Sánchez.
1662
01:34:22,560 --> 01:34:24,040
He was shot many times,
1663
01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:27,600
and he has also written
a book which details his--
1664
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:28,520
[Josu] I know.
1665
01:34:29,360 --> 01:34:33,000
[Jordi] …details his experience,
which, of course, was very traumatic.
1666
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:35,360
The aftermath was also traumatic.
1667
01:34:35,440 --> 01:34:38,160
He faced stigmatization
from his neighbors.
1668
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:41,920
He described that they would cross
to the other side of the street
1669
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:43,240
whenever they saw him.
1670
01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:46,560
He wrote that it seemed almost as if
1671
01:34:46,640 --> 01:34:49,120
they disapproved of the very fact
1672
01:34:49,200 --> 01:34:51,320
that he survived the attack at all.
1673
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:56,720
If any members of Legorburu's family
are watching this interview,
1674
01:34:56,800 --> 01:34:58,160
what would you say to them?
1675
01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:06,040
I'd say what I've said before.
I extend my deepest sympathies.
1676
01:35:11,360 --> 01:35:13,640
[Jordi] And to Mr. Francisco Ruiz Sánchez?
1677
01:35:13,720 --> 01:35:15,560
- Who was wounded.
- [Josu] The…? Yes.
1678
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:20,120
[birds chirping]
1679
01:35:22,440 --> 01:35:24,080
[Josu] I want to say something.
1680
01:35:24,160 --> 01:35:26,240
Killing isn't pleasurable for anyone.
1681
01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:28,160
Anyone.
1682
01:35:29,120 --> 01:35:32,360
Obviously, not for the person
who was killed or for their family.
1683
01:35:33,080 --> 01:35:35,680
But killing isn't pleasurable
for the killer either.
1684
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:37,600
It is
1685
01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:39,440
and will always be
1686
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:40,920
a burden
1687
01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:43,720
which that person, man or woman,
1688
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:45,800
will carry to the end of their days.
1689
01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:49,720
Do you carry that?
1690
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:54,400
Obviously. And I'll say it
for the third time.
1691
01:35:56,040 --> 01:35:58,600
I take responsibility for what I did.
1692
01:35:59,240 --> 01:36:01,480
Obviously, I carry that burden.
1693
01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:03,480
[Jordi] How does that feel?
1694
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:05,560
Well,
1695
01:36:06,360 --> 01:36:07,680
it's like a backpack.
1696
01:36:09,840 --> 01:36:12,600
It's full of things
related to what you've done in life.
1697
01:36:15,280 --> 01:36:16,400
[Jordi] Is it heavy?
1698
01:36:16,480 --> 01:36:17,480
Very heavy.
1699
01:36:21,400 --> 01:36:24,600
Mr. Urrutikoetxea,
what has been the point of all this?
1700
01:36:26,320 --> 01:36:27,160
Look.
1701
01:36:31,320 --> 01:36:34,440
If the question you're asking…
is what is the point
1702
01:36:34,520 --> 01:36:36,640
of the things that I've done in my life…
1703
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:40,800
I'd say that for fifty years…
1704
01:36:43,800 --> 01:36:46,760
I've been involved
in the struggle of the Basque people.
1705
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:50,040
I made some good choices, many,
and some mistakes.
1706
01:36:51,880 --> 01:36:52,840
And…
1707
01:36:55,480 --> 01:37:00,000
it would be disingenuous for any person,
having fought for fifty years,
1708
01:37:00,080 --> 01:37:02,320
to say that their life has been pointless.
1709
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:06,200
That would be monstrous.
1710
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:11,160
I was involved
1711
01:37:12,840 --> 01:37:15,440
in accordance with my beliefs,
from the beginning.
1712
01:37:18,440 --> 01:37:20,120
And I've tried to live my life
1713
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:21,920
as a citizen
1714
01:37:22,640 --> 01:37:23,920
the way I thought best,
1715
01:37:26,440 --> 01:37:27,600
to the very end.
1716
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:30,000
That's it.
1717
01:37:40,600 --> 01:37:41,680
[exhales loudly]
1718
01:37:44,960 --> 01:37:45,920
[sniffs]
1719
01:37:50,040 --> 01:37:51,040
[chair creaking]
1720
01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:08,080
[sighs]
1721
01:38:11,440 --> 01:38:13,440
I wasn't expecting this, my boy.
1722
01:38:15,560 --> 01:38:16,960
This subject…
1723
01:38:20,800 --> 01:38:23,520
I learned something
that I couldn't have imagined.
1724
01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:25,240
[clears throat]
1725
01:38:27,040 --> 01:38:28,040
I never thought
1726
01:38:28,120 --> 01:38:31,600
Josu Ternera could have been involved
in that murder, Jordi.
1727
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:33,240
I never thought that.
1728
01:38:35,600 --> 01:38:39,000
That's why there are still
330 unsolved cases,
1729
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:41,400
and we don't know
who was behind the attacks.
1730
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:45,400
And we'd like to know
who the murderers are.
1731
01:38:45,480 --> 01:38:48,000
So, today I was really surprised
1732
01:38:49,440 --> 01:38:51,440
by the interview that you did with this…
1733
01:38:52,600 --> 01:38:54,480
I was going to say "murderer."
1734
01:38:57,720 --> 01:39:01,560
You know, I would've appreciated it
and it would still be nice
1735
01:39:01,640 --> 01:39:04,560
if others also came forward
and made statements.
1736
01:39:06,480 --> 01:39:08,320
That would be a way to find closure,
1737
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:10,920
to live in peace
and finally forget all this.
1738
01:39:14,280 --> 01:39:16,760
Regarding the attack
in which you were injured,
1739
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:20,920
Josu Urrutikoetxea said
he "extends his deepest sympathies."
1740
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:25,000
I don't think he does.
1741
01:39:28,200 --> 01:39:29,880
I… don't think he does.
1742
01:39:31,320 --> 01:39:32,520
He could have said…
1743
01:39:33,240 --> 01:39:34,800
he could have said
1744
01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:37,360
that he regrets it.
1745
01:39:39,040 --> 01:39:43,120
He talks about this burden.
Okay, I'm sure he carries it on his back.
1746
01:39:44,280 --> 01:39:47,400
But he probably thinks
he was fighting for a good reason,
1747
01:39:47,480 --> 01:39:51,320
defending the Basque Country,
or for whatever reason.
1748
01:39:51,400 --> 01:39:54,240
For independence,
to build their own nation.
1749
01:39:56,280 --> 01:39:58,400
But he doesn't regret what he did.
1750
01:39:58,480 --> 01:40:02,600
If Josu Urrutikoetxea was in front of you,
what would you say?
1751
01:40:05,120 --> 01:40:06,840
[Francisco] I'd ask him to
apologize to me.
1752
01:40:09,920 --> 01:40:14,080
If he would ask for forgiveness
and admit to all his crimes…
1753
01:40:16,000 --> 01:40:17,400
I'm a man of peace.
1754
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:19,840
All I want is peace
1755
01:40:19,920 --> 01:40:24,440
and to forget about all that hatred
and terror we experienced for 60 years.
1756
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:27,720
And that,
1757
01:40:27,800 --> 01:40:29,200
I don't know if…
1758
01:40:30,160 --> 01:40:33,800
if we could end up shaking hands
and finally forget about all of this.
1759
01:40:34,720 --> 01:40:36,840
But I don't think that day will ever come.
1760
01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:39,880
[birds chirping]
1761
01:40:45,680 --> 01:40:47,680
[breeze blowing]
1762
01:40:56,720 --> 01:41:00,160
After operating for nearly 60 years,
ETA disbanded in 2018.
1763
01:41:00,240 --> 01:41:02,080
The organization never achieved
1764
01:41:02,160 --> 01:41:04,640
any of the goals
upon which it was founded.
1765
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,840
In 2021, the Basque
pro-independence left acknowledged
1766
01:41:07,920 --> 01:41:11,640
that the pain that ETA's victims suffered
"never should have happened."
1767
01:41:14,720 --> 01:41:17,960
As of the completion
of this documentary in September 2023,
1768
01:41:18,040 --> 01:41:21,280
166 ETA members remain incarcerated
in France and Spain.
1769
01:41:21,360 --> 01:41:24,600
In 2011, ETA announced
that it would permanently disarm,
1770
01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:28,360
and the organization has never committed
another act of terror.
1771
01:41:28,440 --> 01:41:32,240
ETA is the only terrorist organization
in Europe to have done so.
1772
01:41:35,320 --> 01:41:39,320
Francisco Ruiz is retired and lives
in a town in Ciudad Real, Spain.
1773
01:41:39,400 --> 01:41:42,320
Josu Urrutikoetxea is on parole
in southern France
1774
01:41:42,400 --> 01:41:46,440
and awaiting extradition to Spain.
1775
01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:48,520
[birds chirping]
1776
01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:57,200
[flies buzzing]