1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,720 Slow march! 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,720 When we join the Armed Forces, it's not just a job. 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,120 It's a way of life. 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:23,800 (HORN SOUNDS) 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,560 You felt part of something bigger than yourself. 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,400 I was prepared to give my life for my queen and country. 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,320 We lived and worked in the same place. 10 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,440 Everybody looking out for everybody else. 11 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,560 I served in Northern Ireland during the years of the Troubles. 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,840 I've served in the Falklands. 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,240 We were the first ship to take any attack from the enemy. 14 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,160 I was flying during the Cold War. 15 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:01,960 Then Gulf War One and then during the Bosnian War. 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,080 I believed in our peace and our freedoms in the United Kingdom. 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,880 I didn't quite realise or understand at the time that I would be 18 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:16,240 protecting peace and freedoms that I would be denied myself, 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,760 simply because I was gay. 20 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:24,800 (MACHINE-GUNFIRE) 21 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,400 Homosexuality and its practices are simply not compatible with 22 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,720 service life in the British Armed Forces. 23 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,800 Most red-blooded males are repelled by the physical genital 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,160 activities of these people. 25 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,200 We will not have homosexuals in our midst, 26 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,280 and if we find some have got in, we will get rid of them. 27 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,200 A review has been launched into the treatment 28 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:03,600 of LGBTQ-plus veterans. 29 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,760 Thousands were dismissed for their sexuality 30 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,320 or had to hide who they really were. 31 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,640 How did they know about my secrets? 32 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,440 I was constantly thinking, "What if I make a mistake?" 33 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:17,000 "What if someone finds out?" 34 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,840 And they've been without incomes, lost their jobs. 35 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,440 They've lost pensions... 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,800 I was destroyed. 37 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,240 It was a complete violation. 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,680 The witch hunt was shocking. 39 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:32,000 They were casting a net to haul in other people, 40 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,440 to seek out and destroy. 41 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,160 REPORTER: They've waited 22 years for the chance to tell their story. 42 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,320 The odds were absolutely stacked against us. 43 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,000 But there was this last-gasp battle that we can fight. 44 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,680 The moment that I knew I wanted to join the Army 45 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:33,880 was also the moment I suddenly realised 46 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:36,920 that I was attracted to girls. 47 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,200 I was 13, I was at home with my mum and grandmother. 48 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,760 I have no idea why, but they let me sit up 49 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,200 and watch a programme with them. 50 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,280 (UPBEAT POP MUSIC) 51 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,120 They preceded it with a warning about 52 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,920 "the content of this programme", 53 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:57,880 and I was immediately, like, "Ooh, hello." 54 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,440 Well? Ex-Private Smithers. 55 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,200 It was set in a women's Royal Army Corps training barracks. 56 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,160 Well, Corporal Harvey? 57 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,680 Two women soldiers are talking 58 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,080 and one of them puts a record on the record player. 59 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,920 Top of the gay girls' hit parade. 60 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,880 And it was Dionne Warwick, This Girl's In Love With You. 61 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,160 (RECORD PLAYING) # I've heard some talk... 62 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,360 And Alison Steadman starts dancing towards this corporal. 63 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,120 And then she kissed her. 64 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,880 (ON RECORD) # I need your love... 65 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,040 Full on the mouth. 66 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,160 I was like, "Oh, my God," you know. 67 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,200 And I was blushing because I was just so shocked by it. 68 00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:40,040 I'd never even thought that women could dance together, 69 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,480 let along that they could kiss one another. 70 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:46,640 And then they kissed again. 71 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,280 # I need your love... 72 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:55,120 And I was just blown away. 73 00:04:55,160 --> 00:05:00,320 Because I knew the way I was responding to it was, 74 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,840 "Oh, my God, I like this." 75 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,320 So that was the exact moment I thought joining the Army 76 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,080 might be an opportunity to explore who I was. 77 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,680 And to find out a bit more about my sexuality. 78 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,080 ADVERT VOICEOVER: Suppose she's set upon a career in nursing 79 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,680 and yet wishes to combine it with the active 80 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,040 and communal atmosphere of service life. 81 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,000 # NENA: 99 Luftballons 82 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:34,200 March '82 I joined Queen Alexandra's Royal Army Nursing Corps, 83 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,120 colloquially known as the QAs. 84 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,920 I was posted to Germany. 85 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,560 The last front line in defence 86 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,680 against the Cold War enemies. 87 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,080 With East Germany and Russia just on the doorstep. 88 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,480 So it was quite nerve-wracking, but also exciting. 89 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,160 You could get trips through East Germany to Berlin 90 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,800 in the days of Checkpoint Charlie, and this incredible atmosphere. 91 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,640 We were always doing themed nights, German night, Hawaiian night, 92 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,560 pizza night. 93 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,720 We'd work hard but we played hard. 94 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,840 You know, we were all just living the dream. 95 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,280 (ON CASSETTE PLAYER) # DIONNE WARWICK: I Need Your Love 96 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:30,200 As the weeks went on, 97 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,440 I noticed this person in my intake, Sadie. 98 00:06:34,840 --> 00:06:36,680 There was something very lovely about her. 99 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,560 She'd a very cheeky sort of look, twinkly eyes, 100 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,320 just always looked a bit naughty. 101 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,760 One evening the girls that we shared with were out, 102 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,720 we had the cassette player on, 103 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,280 and we got talking about attractions and what attracts you to people. 104 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,680 And she said, "Have you ever been involved with a woman?" 105 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,440 And I was like, "Oh, no. No, no, no." 106 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,840 And she said, "Well, have you ever kissed another woman?" 107 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,200 And I was like, "No!" 108 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,920 And an erotic tension just built and built. 109 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,360 We had a bit of paper between us and I wrote, 110 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:12,000 "I'm too scared to move." 111 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,880 She took it and she wrote, 112 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:19,480 "Move your elbow six inches towards me." 113 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,120 And she came towards me and kissed me. 114 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,440 # I need our love 115 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,840 # I want your love... 116 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:44,080 It was beautiful. It was erotic, it was moving, 117 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,280 it was explosive. 118 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,080 And in terms of me understanding who I absolutely was, 119 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:53,760 that was the moment. 120 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,680 (SONG ENDS) 121 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:04,240 But then, just after the elation... (CASSETTE PLAYER CLICKS OFF) 122 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,720 ..Sadie was basically telling me, 123 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,920 "But listen, we've got to keep this secret. 124 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,160 You can't tell anyone, you do know that, don't you?" 125 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:17,560 She says, "In the Army you're literally deemed a criminal 126 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,720 merely for being gay. 127 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,720 You can be tried in a military court." 128 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,880 And I thought, "Oh, my God, I could go to prison for this." 129 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,200 If it comes out to the wrong people, 130 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,040 you know, that's it. You could be... 131 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:34,480 Well, you could be out. 132 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:40,560 It was like popping a beautiful, gorgeous, colourful balloon, 133 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,800 just "Pff!" 134 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:48,080 That was the first time I understood, it's illegal. 135 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,560 And that was a huge, huge shock. 136 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:55,120 After that first kiss, we were posted apart. 137 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,000 But we used to write to one another. 138 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,680 It was just this connection to her. 139 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:08,600 After Sadie, I was well and truly in the closet. 140 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,560 Doing everything I could to present a straight Elaine to the world. 141 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:18,680 I ended up going back out with guys, 142 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,720 you know, very seriously. I got engaged to one guy. 143 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,560 And I tried to convince myself that him loving me was enough, 144 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:27,520 and it would be OK. 145 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:29,080 But I knew deep down it wouldn't. 146 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,880 I knew that the only way I was ever going to be able 147 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:37,560 to keep doing the job I loved was to keep my sexuality a secret. 148 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,480 It was nearly five years before 149 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,640 anything happened with another woman. 150 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:50,160 But it was very discrete, just a couple of minor involvements. 151 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,640 That was to have consequences later. 152 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,440 Mentally, having to hide the real me, it was... 153 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,720 difficult because you're constantly trying 154 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,880 to make sure you don't slip up. 155 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,640 There was always a sense of don't be obvious, 156 00:10:14,680 --> 00:10:18,320 be careful what you wear, be careful who you talk to. 157 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,960 Everybody joked about gays in the Armed Forces. 158 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,080 I just played along with it. 159 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,960 It was the best way of keeping your nose clean 160 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,760 and making it not come in your direction. 161 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,080 We were scrambling at all times, day and night, 162 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:34,960 intercepting Soviet aircraft. 163 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,520 And all the time I was doing that I was having to hide who I was. 164 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:42,240 The consequences of being outed meant that I would lose 165 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,360 not just my job and therefore my income 166 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,160 and therefore my accommodation, 167 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,480 but I knew I'd lose my family as well. 168 00:10:51,560 --> 00:10:53,960 There was a paranoia that we all felt. 169 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,400 I didn't want to stand anywhere near anything that was gay. 170 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,600 Because that could incriminate me. 171 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,040 Turn! Left, right... 172 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,360 You'd have to careful what you say, what you do, where you go, 173 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,560 because there was always somebody watching. 174 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,000 I was born in South-East London, near Crystal Palace Park. 175 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:27,080 And I became hooked on ceremonial stuff 176 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,360 from the early age of about five. 177 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,440 One day there was a military band on the bandstand in the park. 178 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,120 I remember sitting hypnotised, watching it. 179 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,960 That one visionary picture has stuck with me 180 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,920 through the whole of my life, actually. 181 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,080 I had trained as an Army bandmaster. 182 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,280 I was fortunate enough to get into the Household Cavalry, 183 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,920 where the pinnacle of my career 184 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,600 was a Trooping the Colour in front of the Queen. 185 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,480 (MILITARY BAND PLAYING) 186 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,880 It was everything... 187 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,360 that I'd spent my life living for. 188 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,040 But at the same time, I had a terrible secret. 189 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:27,240 I knew from a very early age that 190 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:31,280 I wasn't interested in the female form. 191 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,600 I didn't know what to do about it. 192 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,600 None of my family knew, none of my friends knew. 193 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:47,960 Back then, you could be charged and you know go to prison. 194 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,160 For many of us, this is revolting - men dancing with men. 195 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,760 These men must lead a secret, dark existence. 196 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,120 Homosexuals in this country today break the law. 197 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,960 Fire! (GUNFIRE) 198 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,280 When I joined up at the end of 1966, 199 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,520 it was illegal to be gay in any profession. 200 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:11,120 It wasn't just the Army. 201 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,680 And then in 1967, the rules changed in England and Wales, 202 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,320 where it was no longer illegal to be gay. 203 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,080 But it was still illegal in the Armed Forces. 204 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,520 They maintained the status quo and kept the ban. 205 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:34,920 So I internalised it. 206 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,200 I'd always wanted a relationship, 207 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,120 but the first person I ever got really close to, 208 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,960 it felt very unsafe and I'd have a panic attack. 209 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,800 Perhaps the authorities were coming too close, you know, 210 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,840 and I was really worried about telephone calls and letters. 211 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,760 So I ended that relationship, 212 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,760 and it was very, very painful to break up. 213 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,160 After that, I totally devoted myself into my career. 214 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,720 The emotional part of me would lock itself down 215 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,680 so that I didn't get too involved again. 216 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,000 It was like tucking something away in one part of my body 217 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:18,640 that nobody else had ever seen. 218 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,920 So, as far as I knew, almost nobody knew about it. 219 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,520 (RADIO ON) 220 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,680 I'd been in the Army just over 18 years. 221 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:39,360 I was packing to go away on tour with my band, 222 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,400 and there was a knock at my door. 223 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,640 There were two gentlemen stood there in suits. 224 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,040 Members of the Military Police. 225 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,200 I said, "So what's the problem?" 226 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,520 And they said, "We have reason to believe 227 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,200 you've been involved in homosexual activity." 228 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,120 And I thought, "Oh, my God, what do I do?" 229 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,040 How did they know about my secret? 230 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,880 I felt like the whole world had just stopped. 231 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,120 (OFFICER BARKS ORDER) 232 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:23,920 The Red Caps, as we called them, 233 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,400 you didn't really want to get in their pathway. 234 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,120 They could do what they liked, say what they liked. 235 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,240 You were always in fear of the Military Police 236 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,840 when you were serving, because you didn't know where they were 237 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:36,160 or what they were doing. 238 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:43,360 There was a team of Special Investigation Branch policemen 239 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,840 who did nothing but look for LGBTQ-plus service personnel. 240 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,040 One of the sailors literally disappeared overnight. 241 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,440 Led away by the Military Police. 242 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,320 It certainly created and enhanced the fear for me 243 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,040 that that's what lay ahead for me if I got caught. 244 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,480 ELAINE: By the summer of 1987, I was an officer. 245 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:22,360 (PHONE RINGING) 246 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,240 I was on duty and the phone rang. 247 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,680 "Good afternoon, Lt Chambers speaking." 248 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,800 It was Matron sounding absolutely furious. 249 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,720 (OVER PHONE) "This is very uncomfortable, 250 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,520 but allegations have been made. 251 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:42,280 Unwanted advances on two female nurses. 252 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,880 What have you got to say?" 253 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,520 I cannot tell you, I was just so dumbfounded. 254 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,840 I was utterly shocked. 255 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,600 Some things had gone on with other women. 256 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,640 They were certainly not unwanted advances, 257 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,080 and they were certainly not even initiated by me. 258 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,880 So I just said to her, "That's not true." 259 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:05,920 She said, "As you're denying this, 260 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,360 we'll need to make further investigations." 261 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,600 (PHONE HANGS UP) 262 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,160 And it was the word "investigation," I was like, "Ding!" 263 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,480 I was like, "Oh, my God, this this is not good." 264 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,320 So I go racing back to my room. 265 00:17:20,360 --> 00:17:22,640 My head is just like... (MAKES BUZZING SOUND) 266 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,840 "What's going on? Oh, my God, my God!" 267 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,640 Obviously, these allegations weren't true, 268 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:32,080 but they were so scary, cos they were saying, 269 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:34,240 "You're a lesbian." 270 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,520 I thought, I need to get rid of anything in my room 271 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,280 that paints me with a Sapphic brush. 272 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:48,840 Letters, diaries, photos, videos. 273 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,880 But then I thought, "What am I going to do with this evidence?" 274 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,800 This is where I made my first massive mistake. 275 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:57,480 She's mentioned investigation. 276 00:17:57,520 --> 00:17:59,320 It's gonna be the Royal Military Police. 277 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:02,120 But it's Friday afternoon. 278 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,720 They won't come on a Friday. 279 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,560 I decided, "Well, I'll put these items into bags 280 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,120 and decide what to do with them later." 281 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:20,080 I had no notion of what was about to happen. 282 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,480 I had no idea it was going to get a million times worse. 283 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:45,640 ROBERT: I knew full well that if Military Police were at my house, 284 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,640 the chances are they would be looking for evidence 285 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,680 of my sexual orientation. 286 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,840 And if they found anything like that, 287 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,800 my career was almost certainly finished. 288 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,040 They said, "We need to search your property." 289 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,680 And then I started to panic. 290 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,520 I'd just recently bought a copy of Gay Times. 291 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,720 Usually, I'd made sure I'd destroyed them, 292 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,760 but I suddenly remembered it was tucked away in a drawer 293 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,480 in the same room they were searching. 294 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:27,200 I'm stood there, my heart thumping, trying not to show shock. 295 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,640 I didn't know how they'd found out. 296 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,320 I didn't know who had dropped me in it. 297 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:37,000 And thinking, "Please don't look in this drawer." 298 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,520 I started to think that I'd got away with it 299 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,800 and I had a huge sense of relief. 300 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,040 But then, as they were leaving, 301 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,800 one of them opened the drawer, 302 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,200 and I thought, "Jesus, what do I do?" 303 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,560 It was devastating. 304 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,720 My whole body was shaking inside. 305 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,680 They then informed me that I'd got to go to their headquarters 306 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,760 for interrogation. 307 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,720 I was so used to hiding my emotions, 308 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,440 they wouldn't have seen any change in my outward appearance. 309 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,640 Inside was turmoil. 310 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,920 I'd been back literally only about 25, maybe 30 minutes. 311 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,840 I'm in the office and again, the phone rings. 312 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,600 (PHONE RINGING) 313 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,040 (OVER PHONE) "Come round to my office immediately." 314 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,800 (KNOCK ON DOOR) 315 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,160 There's two other people with her. 316 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,800 They said, "We are from the Special Investigation Branch." 317 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,800 I just remember thinking, "Oh, my God, this is serious. 318 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,920 This is really serious." 319 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,920 The SIB officer handed me a printed paper, 320 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,320 "Noticed to Suspect". 321 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,040 And I thought, "What the fuck? 'Suspect?!' 'Suspect?!' 322 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,000 Oh, my God!" 323 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:43,120 Then he said "Due to the lateness of the hour, 324 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,600 we're not going to question you now. 325 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,280 But we would like to now go and search your room." 326 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,680 And I was like, "Oh, no. No, no, no." 327 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,600 My heart was just absolutely pounding. 328 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,120 My palms were sweating. 329 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,040 My mouth was dry, cos I thought, 330 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,640 "I've got all this evidence in these bags just sitting on the bed." 331 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,400 Gold dust. 332 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:17,120 So we go into my room and they put on latex gloves. 333 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:21,720 And I just felt ashamed. 334 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,520 It was like they don't want to touch anything associated 335 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,840 with a possible lesbian, a possible homosexual, 336 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,840 a possible criminal pervert. 337 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:35,400 They flicked through every book, pulled out my photographs, 338 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,600 saying, "Who's this?" "Who's this?" 339 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,920 Went through the pockets in all of my jackets and trousers, 340 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,240 literally going through my dirty linen basket. 341 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,080 But I'm just acutely aware of these two bags sitting on the bed. 342 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,640 He finally got to the bags, and I thought, 343 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,080 "Oh, Christ, this is it. Game over." 344 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,640 They then gathered the evidence 345 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,680 and labelled them and they were called "exhibits". 346 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:17,720 That's when it got terrifying. 347 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,720 I just remember thinking, "God, what's going to happen?" 348 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,480 ROBERT: The Military Police took me to their headquarters 349 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,280 for a number of, erm, interrogations. 350 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,280 It was very nerve-wracking. 351 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,000 The first thing that went onto the table 352 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,680 was the copy of the Gay Times they'd found. 353 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,680 They asked why had I got that in my house. 354 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,480 Then they started asking me lots of invasive questions. 355 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:16,560 What did I know about anal sex and what did I know about oral sex? 356 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,120 I'd never, ever discussed anything like that in my life. 357 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,480 There was no way I could answer those questions. 358 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,560 Then they started saying, 359 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,720 "You've got a dog, you must sleep with it." 360 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:35,280 "You've got brothers, you must have slept with them." 361 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,960 It was very traumatic. 362 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,680 But then they amplified their interrogation. 363 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,360 They brought out a letter. 364 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,120 My heart sank because it was my handwriting. 365 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,680 It was this letter to another musician in the Army 366 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,360 who was gay as well. 367 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,520 And one of the few people who knew about my sexual orientation. 368 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,720 In that letter, I'd opened up about loneliness 369 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:11,560 because I couldn't come out, 370 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,160 and it was a chance to explore those sorts of feelings 371 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,800 with somebody who understood. 372 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,760 But he must have kept it. 373 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,480 It never occurred to me that that letter would turn up 374 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,800 on a table in a military investigation. 375 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,120 Suddenly, that was all being used against me. 376 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,200 "What did you mean by loneliness? What did you mean by secrets?" 377 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,680 It felt like they could see inside me. 378 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:48,400 I felt betrayed by myself for putting these things into writing. 379 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,280 And I thought, "Yes, you've got me. I can't get out of this." 380 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,560 I knew I was innocent. 381 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,320 I knew I hadn't done these things that I was being accused of, 382 00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:15,880 these unwanted advances. 383 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,360 I felt a horrible mix of fear, 384 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,640 incredulity, frustration, 385 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,080 anger, everything. 386 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:33,400 It was just a mix of really, really scary emotions. 387 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,800 The warrant officer that was leading the investigation said to me, 388 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,240 "We've now got to begin to question you, 389 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,840 because these allegations have been made against you." 390 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,400 I'd had a phone call from a military legal adviser, 391 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,160 who'd said the ramifications were massive. 392 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,760 "Your main way to deal with this is just to be completely honest. 393 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,920 Just tell them what happened." 394 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,640 I genuinely believe I was there 395 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,800 to defend myself against these allegations. 396 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,960 So I said, "OK, things happened between us, 397 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,320 consensually, and, actually, at their invitation," 398 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,040 not at all the way it was being portrayed. 399 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,040 I was saying this over and over again. 400 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,440 He realised it wasn't as clear-cut as they expected. 401 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,400 But then the focus just moved completely. 402 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,760 And all they were interested in was the tagged and bagged exhibits, 403 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:43,880 my own diaries. 404 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,560 contact lists from this lesbian pen pal club 405 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,440 and some letters that Sadie had written to me 406 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:52,600 that I'd kept over the years. 407 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,800 And they began to start joining dots together 408 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,200 and making a link between me and her. 409 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,960 And I just thought, "What?! What's going on? Hang on a minute." 410 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,520 At this stage, I'd been in the interrogation for 15 hours. 411 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:15,720 15 hours. 412 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,360 I have no idea of whether that was a deliberate tactic to wear me down. 413 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:24,800 I was terrified. Absolutely terrified. 414 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:29,560 He was pushing me more and more about the relationship with Sadie, 415 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,560 and the questioning taking the hours and hours that it took 416 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,480 just meant that I really stupidly ended up telling him that 417 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,640 yes, we had been briefly involved. 418 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,640 I suddenly thought, "Oh, Christ, what have I done? 419 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,360 Oh, my God, what have I done?" 420 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,120 I'd given her up to them. 421 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,920 When the questioning finished, 422 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,480 I raced off to the payphone and rang Sadie. 423 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,560 I was so scared. I thought, "Oh, my God," you know, 424 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,880 "they're going to go to her place now, I just know it." 425 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,560 I just had to warn her. 426 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,360 She was very angry with me, basically saying, 427 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,480 "You fucking idiot!" 428 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:20,880 It was breaking my heart. 429 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,400 By the end of the call... 430 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,560 Sorry. By the end of the call... 431 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,120 ..she was like, "Be careful." 432 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,800 "Look after yourself." 433 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,920 And, you know, she knew... 434 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,320 ..she knew by the end of the call I would never do anything 435 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,640 to hurt her deliberately because I loved her. 436 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,040 Once the investigation was concluded, 437 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,040 there were absolutely no charges brought against me 438 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,720 and the allegations had been dropped or disproved. 439 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,360 But they had enough evidence 440 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,360 of what they deemed as "unnatural conduct" 441 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,200 because of my "homosexual proclivities". 442 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,480 I was told, "You have to resign." 443 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,960 I didn't want to accept that. 444 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,080 I did not want my career... I'm going to get upset now. 445 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,040 I did not want my career to be over for that. 446 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,480 Why should it be? 447 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,120 I was a bloody good nurse. 448 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:41,080 And I honestly thought, "Why would they do that? 449 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,920 Why would they get rid of me?" 450 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,600 Suddenly, I was back out in the world. 451 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,680 That's when it really, really hit home. 452 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,200 I was living with my mum and dad. I've been outed to my entire family. 453 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,840 I felt I've lost everything that I've worked so hard to get. 454 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,480 I was just left completely wrung out, empty. 455 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,680 It's the only thing that ever happened to me in my life 456 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,160 that seriously made me contemplate killing myself. 457 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:20,800 That's how seriously bad it was. 458 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,600 I was just so angry with what had happened, 459 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,840 and this absolute sense that it was so unjust. 460 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,920 And I wanted to change that. 461 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:43,800 It took me ten years of writing, harassing and refusing to let go 462 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,840 before I was able to get hold of the full records of my investigation. 463 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,480 I mean, it's hundreds of pages. 464 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,760 This language is just incredible. 465 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,000 "Aberrant behaviour", "homosexual proclivities", 466 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,480 "unnatural conduct". 467 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,520 It's very strange just to see 468 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,680 one's life dissected in this way. 469 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,400 But also, there's stuff in here I wasn't expecting to see. 470 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,680 I honestly thought it was just about me, 471 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:25,240 and then Sadie was inadvertently involved. 472 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:28,320 But it had gone way beyond just us two. 473 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,680 There were seven people in total whose lives were affected by this. 474 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,080 When I found that out, of course, I felt guilty, 475 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,520 because it was my diaries and my letters 476 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,520 that led to other people being dragged in. 477 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,760 That's... That's horrific. 478 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:55,000 The witch hunt that followed was shocking, just awful. 479 00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,560 The Military Police were looking for anybody they could get. 480 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,400 People had been hunted down like vermin. 481 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,120 They were casting a net and they were trying to haul in other people 482 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,680 that might be homosexual to seek out and destroy. 483 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:33,920 I was a Military Policewoman, 484 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,520 a member of the Special Investigation Branch, 485 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:42,520 investigating people for being alleged homosexual. 486 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,040 The scale of operation involved in tracking down homosexuality 487 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,880 was surprisingly vast. 488 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,240 We had a database called the Lesbian Index. 489 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,320 Drawers full of cards that had people's names on. 490 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,840 They could come from tip-offs or an accusation, 491 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,000 or, following a search, you might have found the evidence yourself 492 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:14,760 through reading someone's letter and then linking that to another person. 493 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,640 Or maybe even it was just a suspicion about someone. 494 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,520 It could be short hair or having a boyish nickname like "Charlie", 495 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,880 or the way you walked or putting your hands in your pockets, 496 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,480 the way you stood. 497 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,360 Even the way you smoked or held a cigarette. 498 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,760 Once we had a name, 499 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:43,440 the lengths that we'd go to, to entrap people, 500 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,040 waiting outside gay bars, 501 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,440 seeing if someone would buy you a drink. 502 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,160 It would be a team of operatives following people 503 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,080 and surveilling people, taking pictures. 504 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,800 The investigations were a huge amount of man hours, 505 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:00,600 a huge amount of detail. 506 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,880 So we'd drag them in, 507 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,560 and then bully people during interviews. 508 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,760 A lot of it was about getting names. 509 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,480 So it wasn't enough to have that one person in the hot seat. 510 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,400 They would then be trying to capture as many other people, 511 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,440 hence the phrase "witch hunt". 512 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,720 The Special Investigation Branch 513 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,080 were completely and utterly despicable. 514 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,760 Absolutely despicable. What they put people through. 515 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:46,360 That night the Military Police in excessive numbers raided the block. 516 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:52,240 The humiliation of being dragged out of my room, barefoot, in a T-shirt, 517 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,440 that's when the trauma hit me. 518 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,680 I was on antidepressants for, like, pretty much 519 00:35:56,720 --> 00:35:58,960 the last 18 months of my career. 520 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,440 And so I handed in my notice. 521 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,520 The captain told me that I'd be discharged 522 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,600 because disgusting people such as myself, 523 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,120 there was no place for us in a civilised society. 524 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,800 My long service and good conduct medal was cut off my tunic, 525 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,640 with the biggest set of scissors you could ever see. 526 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,080 That was it. My time was up. 527 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,760 There was just no preparation for us. 528 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,040 You were just basically throwing him on the street to be homeless 529 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,840 with no package to help. 530 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,040 All of a sudden I didn't have a future, 531 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,320 and I didn't know where I was going to go. 532 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,640 I had no job. I had nowhere to live. 533 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,080 And so I'd spend the days just walking the streets of Bristol. 534 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:59,360 My military career was over and I found my nursing career was over. 535 00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,840 I was very, very shell-shocked. 536 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:06,040 I actually went through a complete nervous breakdown 537 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,880 and I felt really let down. Very, very let down. 538 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,000 ROBERT: After my interrogation, 539 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,920 I was administratively dismissed because of my sexual orientation. 540 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,520 "Services no longer required". 541 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:29,320 I actually burst out in tears because it was so painful. 542 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,080 I'd devoted the last 18 years to the Armed Forces, 543 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:40,800 and then, suddenly, it all crashed around me 544 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,240 and I had no concept of the outside world. 545 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,720 I had to sell my house and I was living out of my car. 546 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,400 So I felt very, very isolated, very lonely, 547 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,840 and I had no idea who I could talk to. 548 00:38:02,720 --> 00:38:06,160 And so I put a letter into the gay press, 549 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,680 which included my phone number, 550 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,560 for anybody that had been through similar circumstances. 551 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,960 (PHONE RINGING) 552 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,680 A couple of weeks later, I was just about to go to bed 553 00:38:15,720 --> 00:38:18,440 and my phone rang. 554 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,240 And it was a lady's voice. 555 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,680 She introduced herself as Elaine. 556 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,280 We were on the phone, I think probably for about two hours 557 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,000 on that first call, because neither of us had ever spoken 558 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,000 to anyone else about it. 559 00:38:36,720 --> 00:38:38,480 You know, it was like, "Wow!" 560 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,280 Suddenly this weight suddenly started lifting off my shoulders. 561 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:46,160 It suddenly felt, "Oh, thank God, 562 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,440 I'm not the only one." 563 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,120 I arranged to come up to London for a weekend 564 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,600 and I ended up staying with Elaine. 565 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,360 I felt like she was somebody I'd known half of my life, you know? 566 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,360 And it just felt comfortable. 567 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,880 # JOY DIVISION: Love Will Tear Us Apart 568 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaking to Robert was astounding. 569 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,080 And helped me come out, properly come out to myself. 570 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,920 I thought, "I want to go out and find other gay people 571 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,080 and see what it's like and see if I feel at home." 572 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,040 And that's when Robert and I said, "This is wrong. 573 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,080 We need to do something about this ban 574 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,600 and support people like ourselves," 575 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,560 and get the fact of the ban's existence out 576 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,040 into the public domain, 577 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,280 because we knew most people didn't know about it. 578 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,000 Eventually, others started to get in touch, 579 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:46,000 so we decided we ought to formalise it a bit more. 580 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,680 I suggested, "Why don't we call ourselves 'Rank Outsiders', 581 00:39:51,720 --> 00:39:54,480 and let's hope one day it will be 'Insiders'." 582 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,360 Not at that moment in time, for one minute, 583 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,360 thinking that anything was going to change. 584 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,800 We were actually now getting news and information 585 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:07,560 and being joined by people who'd in many ways 586 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,920 been treated even worse than we had. 587 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,480 And that was when we met Mike. 588 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:21,240 I was 16 and a half when I joined. 589 00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:26,800 My grandfather, my father, 590 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:32,240 they had all served time in the Royal Air Force. 591 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,520 And I just felt I wanted to continue that family tradition. 592 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:42,840 But then when I was probably about 17 and a half, coming up 18, 593 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:47,760 I realised I was attracted to men. 594 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,120 It was quite confusing. 595 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,400 But I thought, "I can manage this. 596 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,040 I can keep the two lives separate." 597 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:00,760 # SNAP: Rhythm Is A Dancer 598 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,320 So I used to jump on the train down to London. 599 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:10,720 And go to gay clubs. 600 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,720 I needed to explore where these feelings were taking me. 601 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,000 There was some great gay clubs at the time. 602 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,200 We used to go dancing all night and just had a damn good time. 603 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,840 # It's a passion, oh-oh... 604 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,320 But then, returning back to the base, 605 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:38,760 through the gates... 606 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:42,120 back into that different character. 607 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,880 At ease! 608 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,480 Straight, masculine. 609 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,120 And I thought it was working. 610 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,080 But I suspect that I was being watched. 611 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,000 Because they knew everything. 612 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,400 And it was the 17th of March, 1992, 613 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,320 I was coming up to 21, 614 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,720 when the Special Investigators said, "We are arresting you." 615 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:17,000 That moment, I knew it was game up. 616 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,640 My whole life had just crashed in around me. 617 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:33,400 I have here a tape that's not been played in over 30 years, 618 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:38,600 but it's actually the tape of my Military Police interview. 619 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,640 (ON TAPE) 620 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,480 Thirty years may have passed, 621 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:59,640 but I can remember every detail as clear as it happened yesterday. 622 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,920 I thought I could be clever and talk my way out of this 623 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,440 and say it was just a phase I was going through 624 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,560 and I'm really straight, 625 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,520 with the hope that I could salvage my career. 626 00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:01,400 Looking back, I just wanted to get out of that room at all costs. 627 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,000 And I thought.... (SIGHS) 628 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,320 .."I'll just tell him what he wants to hear," 629 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,160 thinking that would suffice. 630 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,520 But the questions kept coming... 631 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,200 and they kept coming. 632 00:44:32,720 --> 00:44:37,280 He wanted me to say that I'd stuck this guy's penis in my mouth. 633 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:51,000 I was destroyed. 634 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,360 It was a complete violation. 635 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,720 I thought he'd finished. 636 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,880 And then he says, "Tell me about the next time." 637 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,400 And I said, "Like I've just said." 638 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,200 And he wasn't happy with that answer. 639 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:19,920 He wanted me to go through the intimate detail 640 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,880 again and again and again. 641 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:28,440 I was at breaking point, you know? 642 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,840 After the interview, 643 00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:49,280 I was summoned to the medical officer. 644 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,440 He explained that he had to conduct an examination 645 00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,680 to check for evidence of anal penetration. 646 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,280 I'd already admitted that I was gay. 647 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,880 It was just another notch to make me feel humiliated. 648 00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:13,840 But I was a junior rank 649 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,040 addressing an order from a senior officer. 650 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,280 So you didn't question it. 651 00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,840 He told you what to do and you did it. 652 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,320 He told me to drop my trousers and my underwear, 653 00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,200 and he conducted an anal examination. 654 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:40,120 I just shut my eyes and completely blanked myself out. 655 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,400 It feels like they're raping me. 656 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,240 Now, looking back... 657 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,160 ..it... 658 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,000 could be classed as a sexual assault, definitely. 659 00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:16,880 Some years later, I discovered there's a document 660 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,880 that lays down specific instruction to medical officers 661 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,000 how to conduct examinations. 662 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,600 And I quote, 663 00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,120 "They are to examine the anus for appearance 664 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,120 of bruising and inflammation, 665 00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,320 for size and elasticity." 666 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,800 Basically, evidence that you've been penetrated. 667 00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,080 If people thought my case was an isolated case, 668 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:54,440 then, clearly, it's not because it's written down in black and white 669 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:59,000 that these are the guidelines they have to follow. 670 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,920 And using such language! 671 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:08,040 So after the physical examination, I was awarded 60 days' detention. 672 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,160 It felt like just another kick in the teeth. 673 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,840 Before you could even take breath, 674 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,240 the drill sergeant was there yelling at you, 675 00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:19,680 "Get off, Get out!" 676 00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:26,440 I was processed and then the daily beastings kicked in. 677 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,760 But I was subjected to... 678 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,240 ..special treatment because I was gay. 679 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:43,120 I was taken to the latrines by this drill sergeant. 680 00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:49,360 And he stood over me and he said, 681 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,560 You like eating shit, so..." 682 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,280 And he made me clean the toilet with my toothbrush. 683 00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:00,840 And then... 684 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,480 ..I was made to clean my teeth. 685 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,160 And this went on for 60 days. 686 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,960 That was the end of my military career. 687 00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:20,960 2nd of November, 1992. 688 00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,920 The day I was released, 689 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,200 I didn't know where to go, what to do. 690 00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,000 I had nowhere to live. 691 00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,520 The first couple of days I was sleeping rough. 692 00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,120 There was depression, 693 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,920 more depression, drinking. 694 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,880 Suicide thoughts. 695 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,880 And then I was put in contact with a group called Rank Outsiders. 696 00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:05,600 And they said would I like to come down and meet up with them 697 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,560 and share my experiences with them? 698 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:13,920 So when I first met Robert and Elaine, 699 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:19,280 just being able to know I was not the only one, 700 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:25,200 it meant quite a lot and got me through some difficult times. 701 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,960 And, eventually, I started to give more time to the group. 702 00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:36,160 And to rebuild my life. 703 00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,520 ELAINE: In our initial meetings, we were talking very excitably 704 00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,040 about what were we going to be? Were we going to be an organisation? 705 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:53,720 Were we going to be a support group? 706 00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:57,400 Were we going to be activists? What was the aim? 707 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,960 We thought it would be great if we could offer some sort of 708 00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:04,440 contact number where people could phone us 709 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:06,600 and we could give them advice and support. 710 00:51:11,240 --> 00:51:14,600 We created our own leaflets and information. 711 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:18,440 It was all advertised widely in all the gay press. 712 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,680 We decided we would man it once a week on a Wednesday 713 00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,040 for a couple of hours between 7:00 and 9:00 714 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,600 Outside of that time, there was an answerphone. 715 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,280 And so there we were, the first Wednesday. 716 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,640 (CHUCKLES) It was all set up, ready to go. 717 00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,360 We sat there at seven o'clock and we thought, 718 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,320 "The phone's going to ring." 719 00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:51,080 7:30, "No, the phone's going to ring." 720 00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,640 Eight o'clock... 721 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:57,800 nine o'clock... 722 00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,160 nothing. 723 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:01,000 Nobody called. 724 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:05,160 And we felt a bit deflated. 725 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,280 So we packed up and went home. 726 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:21,160 But the following week, we came back, 727 00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,240 the light was flashing on the answerphone. 728 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,120 I couldn't believe it. The answerphone was full. 729 00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,160 (LINE RINGING) 730 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,720 When I was dismissed, I was so depressed, 731 00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,240 I went into a dark bubble. 732 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:45,560 I decided that I was going to the Tamar Bridge 733 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,240 and was going to chuck myself off. 734 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,760 But then I phoned Rank Outsiders organisation 735 00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,800 and they said, "You're not on your own." 736 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,800 This is what we do. We're a support organisation." 737 00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,280 And I thought, "Right, there is," you know, 738 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,640 "there are people out here just like me." 739 00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:06,040 Rank Outsiders certainly saved my life. 740 00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:12,200 Yeah, it did. 741 00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,040 I saw a lot of stuff in the Pink Paper about them, 742 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:19,480 and, more importantly, I was able to pass that information 743 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,800 onto isolated friends and colleagues. 744 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,480 Rank Outsiders was a huge support. 745 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,280 They were there for me from the very beginning. 746 00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,360 And to actually speak to somebody on the end of the phone, even, 747 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,640 that's been through what you've been through, 748 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:36,040 I don't think without them I would have managed. 749 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,200 Occasionally, I would phone the Rank Outsiders helpline, 750 00:53:41,240 --> 00:53:45,320 but I was absolutely petrified about phoning it. 751 00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:50,040 But also desperate for information. I wanted to know what was going on. 752 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,280 I wanted to know if there was hope. 753 00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,160 But I'd never phone them from a telephone within the military dockyard. 754 00:53:57,200 --> 00:54:00,520 I never told them who I was and I'd never stay on the telephone 755 00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:02,560 for longer than three or four minutes. 756 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,200 (PHONE RINGING) 757 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,280 ROBERT: I was conscious in the back of my mind that 758 00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,480 that somebody might be listening in 759 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,760 to what was being said on those phones. 760 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:20,360 We did, frequently, get calls from people pretending to be gay. 761 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,960 We knew, just from the nature of the conversation, 762 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:25,400 that they were SIB. 763 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:31,120 They were on a fishing trip, 764 00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:35,000 trying to find more victims so they could go on a witch hunt. 765 00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,520 Across the military, there were hundreds of people involved 766 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,880 in these investigations. 767 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:55,280 Tapping phones, intercepting mail and secretly filming people. 768 00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,000 Such an extraordinary amount of resource being thrown at it. 769 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,280 I just began to find the whole experience 770 00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,320 of the witch hunts deeply disturbing. 771 00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:14,320 Because, whilst I was investigating gay people, 772 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,600 I was hiding a secret. 773 00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,520 I was living a double life. 774 00:55:20,720 --> 00:55:23,360 I realised I'm a lesbian. 775 00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:28,800 I just felt like walking on a knife's edge, 776 00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,160 because I was in turmoil. 777 00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,280 I really thought I was losing my mind. 778 00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:36,400 I was paranoid. 779 00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:41,680 But eventually, the whole thing caught up with me, 780 00:55:41,720 --> 00:55:46,360 despite my best intentions at keeping everything secret. 781 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:51,520 My room was searched and I was then taken to the interrogation room. 782 00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:54,720 Just as I'd done to other people. 783 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,000 Well, I was dishonourably discharged. 784 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:04,640 And the shame and the stigma was overwhelming. 785 00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:06,560 But the biggest thing was the guilt, 786 00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,680 the guilt, and that that's with me still. 787 00:56:09,720 --> 00:56:16,040 When I look back, it is hard to justify being a part of that. 788 00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:20,600 And I was naive, and I see that with hindsight. 789 00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:25,560 And all I can say is I was a cog within a machine 790 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,560 that is chewing up gay people. 791 00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,880 We're here, we're queer, get used to it. 792 00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,600 (CHEERING) # ERASURE: A Little Respect 793 00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,200 # I try to discover 794 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:54,520 # A little something to make me sweeter... # 795 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,080 ELAINE: After a couple of years as Rank Outsiders, 796 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,440 we decided we needed publicity to get the ban's existence 797 00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,400 out into the public domain, 798 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,760 because most people didn't know about it. 799 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,000 MIKE: Gay Pride 1993, 800 00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:18,200 we produced, at great expense, our very own Rank Outsiders banner. 801 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:21,800 And it gave us an opportunity to be visual. 802 00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,240 I didn't know what to expect. 803 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:28,760 But then gay military personnel were coming up 804 00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,320 and they'd be talking to us. 805 00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,680 Some were still serving. Some paraded in uniform. 806 00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:37,480 Some just wore berets. 807 00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,160 And that's how we all met Ed. 808 00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,280 I was a young naval officer, 809 00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,920 and I was sacked because I told the Navy I was gay. 810 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,200 I couldn't cope with living this really strange, 811 00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,280 complicated double life anymore. 812 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,880 I was jobless. 813 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:05,840 Hadn't come out to my family. 814 00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,960 Was in a complete mess with what I was going to do with my life. 815 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,200 And it was also something I was still very angry about. 816 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:16,880 And I started thinking, "So let's try and understand where this ban came from. 817 00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:19,120 "Did someone sit down one day and say, 'Let's ban it?'" 818 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:22,120 Because common sense tells me that you shouldn't be sacking people 819 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,840 because of who they sleep with. 820 00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,400 The ban on gays serving in the military wasn't just a policy. 821 00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:32,720 It was in law, in the Armed Forces Discipline Acts. 822 00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,040 And so I started doing a lot of research, 823 00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:38,560 and I discovered that it was backed up by pages and pages 824 00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,120 of confidential and restricted documents. 825 00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:43,360 They say things like, 826 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,520 "The removal of homosexuals is of vital importance." 827 00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,640 They even used phrases like "sexual deviance" 828 00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:56,360 and words like "disgusting", "infamous" and "immoral". 829 00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,240 And also that gay people were particular targets 830 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,200 for espionage and could be blackmailed. 831 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:10,360 But the reason people could be blackmailed is because of the ban. 832 00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:12,840 If they're outed, they risk ruin, 833 00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,560 they risk prison, they risk being sacked. 834 00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,160 It's very clear from the arguments 835 00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,760 that these views were held at the very top of the Armed Forces. 836 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,920 And so once I met Rank Outsiders, 837 00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:30,840 I thought that what we needed to do was fight to change the law. 838 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:40,400 ELAINE: Ed had an utter conviction we could mount a legal challenge. 839 00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:45,320 But to dare to challenge the Ministry of Defence is massive. 840 00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,440 How are we even going to chip into that? Where do we begin? 841 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,240 We were amateurs. We had no idea how to change the law. 842 00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,280 We had no budget. We had nothing. 843 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,960 And we knew that we had to create this massive legal campaign. 844 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,880 But we couldn't do it alone. We needed help and support. 845 01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,640 And the obvious way to do that was to win over Stonewall. 846 01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,880 When I first met with Rank Outsiders, 847 01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:17,440 I was horrified by the stories that I heard. 848 01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:21,680 It was just incredible to me that a state institution 849 01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:26,240 that was there to defend us was behaving in that sort of way. 850 01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:30,040 Stonewall had become the first high-profile 851 01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,840 lesbian and gay rights lobbying organisation in the UK. 852 01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,880 And so I asked, "How do we take this to court?" 853 01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:38,760 Mounting a big legal campaign, normally, 854 01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,480 would cost hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds. 855 01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,560 But Stonewall was powerful because 856 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,960 we had lots of allies in the legal profession 857 01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:50,320 who believed in the cause. 858 01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,200 The claimants came to see me. 859 01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,600 They wanted to know whether they had a case, 860 01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:58,440 and I thought we had a very strong argument. 861 01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:02,440 You were dismissed because of your sexual orientation, 862 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:06,840 even though that had no impact whatsoever 863 01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:09,200 on your performance of your job. 864 01:01:09,240 --> 01:01:11,640 I thought, personally, this was outrageous. 865 01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:18,320 David Pannick was the greatest human rights lawyer that we had. 866 01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:20,520 And so he was making a big statement 867 01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:25,840 that he felt this case was important and he wanted to change things. 868 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,320 David Pannick thought we had a very strong case, 869 01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,080 but also he said taking the government to court 870 01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:34,800 is really difficult. 871 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:37,080 You can't just go on your own to court and argue, 872 01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,120 "I was sacked, it was unfair." 873 01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,440 So what we needed to do was present four test cases 874 01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,560 who were human beings, who had stories to tell. 875 01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:49,840 This isn't just about a piece of dry law. 876 01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,080 This is about people's lives. 877 01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,440 It was vital that in each of these cases, 878 01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,280 nothing could be said to establish 879 01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,360 that their sexual orientation had had any effect 880 01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,680 upon their military career, upon their record. 881 01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:12,800 I got a phone call from Angela Mason from Stonewall 882 01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:17,080 to say that I was actually going to be the first test case 883 01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,360 to go through the courts. 884 01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,960 I just didn't want anybody else to have to go through 885 01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,600 what I went through. 886 01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,640 I was really quite excited, but also terrified. 887 01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,240 ED: Eventually, we settled on Jeanette Smith, 888 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,360 who'd been an nurse, 889 01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,960 John Beckett, who'd been a young Royal Navy sailor, 890 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:39,400 Graham Grady, who'd served in the RAF and in intelligence roles, 891 01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:43,600 and the final test case was Duncan Lustig-Prean, 892 01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,040 the young naval officer who was destined, 893 01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,600 according to all his reports, to much higher things, 894 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,800 but again, job lost because he was gay. 895 01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,640 Duncan was probably the most senior person 896 01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,680 that we'd been involved with. A large, impressive figure. 897 01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:08,480 I joined the Navy in 1979. 898 01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:13,360 I joined as an ordinary sailor and ended up as a lieutenant commander. 899 01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:21,560 Most of my career was spent on board frigates and destroyers at sea. 900 01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,000 It was at the height of the Cold War, 901 01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:30,920 so we were chasing Soviet submarines in British waters. 902 01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:36,400 I was responsible for clearing mines in the Falkland Islands. 903 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:39,440 The job we were doing was important and valuable. 904 01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:44,400 But I found myself in this sort of awful position. 905 01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,200 Because I was gay. 906 01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,680 I knew that if I was caught, 907 01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:55,720 I would be arrested and questioned and investigated. 908 01:03:56,720 --> 01:04:00,160 I was constantly thinking, "What if I make a mistake? 909 01:04:00,200 --> 01:04:01,680 "What if someone finds out?" 910 01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:03,440 (HORN SOUNDS) 911 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,640 When we sailed for the Falkland Islands, 912 01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:08,680 all the families gathered on Portsmouth Harbour, 913 01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,400 but my boyfriend would be hidden, 914 01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,720 and I would just discreetly wave to him and he would wave to me. 915 01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:20,400 At sea I would write letters addressed to "Dear P" 916 01:04:20,440 --> 01:04:24,000 or "Dear Phil", or, more often, "Dear Phyllis". 917 01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:27,520 Instead of saying, "I love you," 918 01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:31,320 I'd sign it, "I'm on extension 143". 919 01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:35,120 "I love you". 920 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,520 So I'd served for 15 years, 921 01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:41,040 and even though I was leading a double life, 922 01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:44,640 I saw nothing else but to stay in the Navy. 923 01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:50,440 But then it all changed. 924 01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:58,520 There was a knock on the door and there was a message. 925 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:02,280 "Someone has been calling repeatedly 926 01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:05,880 asking for you to ring them, 927 01:05:05,920 --> 01:05:08,560 but not from the ship." 928 01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,440 And this was really unusual. 929 01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:15,440 I left the dockyard. 930 01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:18,680 And I made a phone call from a phone box. 931 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:24,000 He answered very quickly, told him who I was. 932 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,800 And he said... (OVER PHONE) .."I want to meet you." 933 01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,400 "Why? Who are you? I don't know who you are." 934 01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:36,920 "I want to meet you." 935 01:05:36,960 --> 01:05:38,280 "What's all this about?" 936 01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:40,160 I don't go driving around the country 937 01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:42,520 meeting people I've never met before. 938 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,240 "It's about your double life." 939 01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:48,120 I knew what that was about. 940 01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,800 You know, everything that I'd feared. 941 01:05:54,880 --> 01:06:01,200 I drove out of Portsmouth and I got to London. 942 01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,800 And at 12:30, I arrived in the meeting point. 943 01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:16,440 And I asked him, "What do you want?" 944 01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,920 He said, "I know that you're gay." 945 01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:26,640 "If you make it worth my while, I'll keep quiet about it." 946 01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,160 Inside, my heart was pounding 947 01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:35,320 and my hands were clammy and I was scared. 948 01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:39,400 But this was something I had rehearsed 949 01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,600 in my mind over and over again. 950 01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:46,480 "What if I was caught out?" "What if someone discovered it?" 951 01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:48,760 "What if someone tried to blackmail me?" 952 01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:53,040 Although I'd loved my career, 953 01:06:53,080 --> 01:06:55,920 there was no way that I was going to be blackmailed. 954 01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:57,400 And I said to him... 955 01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,040 .."You can fuck off." 956 01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:04,880 "Because before you get anywhere near the Military Police, 957 01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:08,200 I will have told them about this conversation." 958 01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:16,320 In the morning I walked into Special Investigation Branch 959 01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:19,960 and the person I spoke to, actually, someone I knew. 960 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,840 It was, "Duncan, great to hear from you!" 961 01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:26,200 How are you, mate? How can I help you? What's wrong?" 962 01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,200 "Someone's trying to blackmail me." 963 01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:34,280 "Give me the bugger's name. We'll sort him out for you. 964 01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,600 Why is he trying to blackmail you?" 965 01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:41,280 And I took a deep breath and I said, "Because I'm gay." 966 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,840 And there was this long pause, and he... 967 01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,760 the smile just vanished from his face. 968 01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,760 "Well, in that case, you're not obliged to say anything, 969 01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,920 but anything you do say may be taken down in evidence." 970 01:07:59,960 --> 01:08:03,600 Opposite his office was an interview room. 971 01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:06,960 And we started that taped interview. 972 01:08:10,280 --> 01:08:14,480 Although I tried to say, "Yes, I have told you that I'm gay, 973 01:08:14,520 --> 01:08:16,320 that's all you need to know," 974 01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,560 they seemed to be more interested in asking questions 975 01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,680 about anyone else in the forces who's gay. 976 01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:25,880 Well, I wasn't going to go there for them. 977 01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:28,800 They also asked about the blackmailer. 978 01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:31,920 He, apparently, had gone to them several times 979 01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:34,200 and outed people to them. 980 01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:36,400 If I blackmailed someone, I'd go to prison. 981 01:08:36,440 --> 01:08:39,280 But no, he was useful to the military. 982 01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:41,440 He outed gay people. 983 01:08:41,480 --> 01:08:43,800 And so nothing ever happened to him. 984 01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:49,640 I was discharged. I was trembling. 985 01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,440 It was goodbye. 986 01:08:54,480 --> 01:08:56,640 It was goodbye to the Navy. 987 01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:01,480 It had been a fabulous job. Erm... 988 01:09:04,480 --> 01:09:06,120 It was over. 989 01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:14,120 It was the beginning of 1995 when I was finally dismissed 990 01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:18,840 and at the same time Rank Outsiders selected me as a test case. 991 01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:26,560 The purpose of the test cases was to get the strongest arguments 992 01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,400 in front of the court, to get the ban lifted. 993 01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:32,880 But it was very clear that the Ministry of Defence 994 01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,400 was already campaigning quite vociferously against us. 995 01:09:35,440 --> 01:09:38,960 The overwhelming majority of members of the Armed Forces 996 01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:43,800 do not want to have active homosexuals in their ranks... 997 01:09:43,840 --> 01:09:46,920 ANGELA: The establishment, I felt, were against us. 998 01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:49,760 It was something of a David-and-Goliath situation. 999 01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:51,560 (OFFICER BARKS ORDERS) 1000 01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:55,920 As one of the four test cases, it got more and more intimidating 1001 01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:58,200 and a lot more scary the closer we got. 1002 01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:04,600 We were taking on the state, so the stakes were incredibly high, 1003 01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:07,760 but so were the costs to the victims of this policy. 1004 01:10:13,160 --> 01:10:16,880 So this was a huge moment for all of us. 1005 01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:26,880 REPORTER: The three men and a woman 1006 01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,080 bringing this landmark legal challenge 1007 01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,320 all automatically lost their jobs 1008 01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:34,720 once their homosexuality became known... 1009 01:10:34,760 --> 01:10:38,000 I remember the day we arrived at the High Court, 1010 01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:40,040 thinking, "Oh, I need to pinch myself. 1011 01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:43,720 Is this real? We're now actually fighting our battle." 1012 01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:46,920 ROBERT: Going to the High Court was a strange experience. 1013 01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,240 You're even worried if your shoes squeak. 1014 01:10:51,120 --> 01:10:54,280 DUNCAN: The case started and in came the judges. 1015 01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:59,520 The Ministry of Defence had numerous barristers, solicitors. 1016 01:10:59,560 --> 01:11:03,960 We just had a tiny team and very meagre resources. 1017 01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:06,520 We were really fighting against the odds. 1018 01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,000 To win our case in court we had to prove 1019 01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:13,640 that what the Government was doing was irrational. 1020 01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,440 Not just that it wasn't fair, but that it's bonkers. 1021 01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,080 Our main arguments were very simple, 1022 01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:22,520 that the policy was wrong, that it was unfair, 1023 01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:23,760 that it was unjust. 1024 01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:28,120 This was really a disguised, or not very disguised, 1025 01:11:28,160 --> 01:11:29,320 form of prejudice. 1026 01:11:29,360 --> 01:11:32,680 This is extraordinary in the 1990s. 1027 01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:35,560 We're not talking about the 1890s. 1028 01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:39,320 DUNCAN: The Ministry of Defence then argued 1029 01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,760 gay people in the Armed Forces could be blackmailed, 1030 01:11:42,800 --> 01:11:46,760 thus everybody who was gay was a security risk. 1031 01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:52,320 But David Pannick was like a tiger. He jumped on every point. 1032 01:11:52,360 --> 01:11:56,640 He started talking about me and he asked the question, 1033 01:11:56,680 --> 01:11:59,880 "Why is he a security risk, 1034 01:11:59,920 --> 01:12:03,760 if the moment a blackmailer approaches him, he reports it?" 1035 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,360 "The only reason he's a security risk is because you make him one." 1036 01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:11,920 When the judges retired, 1037 01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:15,080 it was extraordinary to realise that it's just these three men 1038 01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:18,960 that are going to make a decision whether we've won or lost. 1039 01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:21,720 There was this slimmest of possibilities 1040 01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:25,840 that these law lords would see sense and go, 1041 01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,680 "Ban over. Problem solved." Wow! 1042 01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:30,760 So I was really optimistic. 1043 01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,240 And I thought, based on what I'd heard, 1044 01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:34,680 that we had to win. 1045 01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,920 Lawyers representing three former servicemen and one woman 1046 01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:51,200 who were sacked because they were gay 1047 01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:52,960 accused the military authorities 1048 01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:56,400 of pandering to irrational prejudice and intolerance. 1049 01:12:56,440 --> 01:13:00,840 The MOD argues that homosexuality is incompatible with service life. 1050 01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:06,000 So once we learn that the judgment's ready, 1051 01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:08,520 we all troop back into the courtroom. 1052 01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:15,640 Lord Justice Simon Brown began by saying that Lawrence of Arabia, 1053 01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:17,360 who, of course, was gay, 1054 01:13:17,400 --> 01:13:21,440 would not be welcome in the Armed Forces of today. 1055 01:13:21,480 --> 01:13:23,560 And that signalled to us that he found this 1056 01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:24,920 an extraordinary policy. 1057 01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:30,200 It was unbelievable in the way that it attacked the Ministry. 1058 01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:34,720 I was really optimistic. 1059 01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:36,760 I thought, based on what I had heard, 1060 01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:38,560 that we had to win. 1061 01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:43,760 Lord Justice Simon Brown ended by expressing the view 1062 01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:46,200 that the tide of history was against such a policy. 1063 01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:52,120 ELAINE: It sounded like they might have made the right decision to say, 1064 01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:54,480 "You know what? We're going to stop this." 1065 01:13:56,200 --> 01:13:58,480 But he said "with regret, 1066 01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:00,440 and he made it clear it was with regret, 1067 01:14:00,480 --> 01:14:02,840 that he couldn't do anything about it. 1068 01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,160 And I was just... 1069 01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:11,600 I couldn't believe it. 1070 01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,080 I sat there devastated. 1071 01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:18,400 After what the judge had to say in the judgment, 1072 01:14:18,440 --> 01:14:20,720 which gave us so much hope, 1073 01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:23,920 it was, of course, crushing for the whole team. 1074 01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:27,720 (PRESS CLAMOURING) 1075 01:14:27,760 --> 01:14:29,520 REPORTER: They left court disappointed. 1076 01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:33,760 Jeanette Smith, Graham Brady, John Beckett and Duncan Lustig-Prean 1077 01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:37,240 lost their case when the judge said there was no contravention 1078 01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,600 of European or domestic law. 1079 01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:44,920 The law was not on our side. 1080 01:14:49,280 --> 01:14:51,480 We would have to fight another day. 1081 01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:02,440 We increasingly felt that as normal people in normal society moved on 1082 01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:05,040 and got to see lesbians and gay men, 1083 01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:08,240 got to see characters in soap operas and the like, 1084 01:15:08,280 --> 01:15:11,080 in the forces, that was still a world apart. 1085 01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,680 So people were still forced to live a secret life... 1086 01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,040 ..or to chuck their career in. 1087 01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:26,160 We were not going to give up. 1088 01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,280 We were going to make sure that as many people as possible 1089 01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:30,720 would know about it. 1090 01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:32,560 And we were going to get that story out there. 1091 01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:35,400 REPORTER: Elaine Chambers lost her job as an Army nurse 1092 01:15:35,440 --> 01:15:37,960 after an investigation into her sexuality. 1093 01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:40,280 For no reason that affects our work, 1094 01:15:40,320 --> 01:15:43,840 our sexuality is considered enough to absolutely ruin our lives 1095 01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,880 and just take everything away from us. 1096 01:15:46,920 --> 01:15:49,680 From small acorns grow mighty oaks. 1097 01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,160 And by the mid-'90s, 1098 01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:55,880 there was a big media campaign around us. 1099 01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:59,080 That guy has just lost his career and his job for being gay. 1100 01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:01,800 REPORTER: Edmond Hall was dismissed from the Navy 1101 01:16:01,840 --> 01:16:04,280 after revealing he was homosexual. 1102 01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:07,040 If we could keep this on the front pages 1103 01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,520 and as a big news story, 1104 01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:15,040 we can win over public opinion by putting pressure on the Government. 1105 01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:17,480 But it became really obvious that the Ministry of Defence 1106 01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,640 was going to fight this at every stage, tooth and nail. 1107 01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:24,560 We are not, I repeat, not prepared 1108 01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:29,000 to allow the effectiveness and fighting power of our Armed Forces 1109 01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:32,880 who YOU expect to go out and lay their lives on the line 1110 01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:34,800 on a pretty regular basis 1111 01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:38,240 in the interests of this country to be compromised in any way. 1112 01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:40,720 Put all these things together, and, quite candidly, 1113 01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,040 homosexuality is incompatible with good military discipline 1114 01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:45,800 and a cohesive unit... 1115 01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:49,440 On some of these programmes, the team set us up against people 1116 01:16:49,480 --> 01:16:52,040 with total opposite views to ours. 1117 01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:55,320 But sometimes I found myself becoming very, very angry. 1118 01:16:55,360 --> 01:16:59,520 I served nearly 20 years. I spent five days under arrest. 1119 01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,240 I was interviewed by the SIB in great depth. 1120 01:17:02,280 --> 01:17:06,240 I still suffer mentally from that torture now. 1121 01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:09,720 HOST: Henry? I have no comment on this. 1122 01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:12,840 There were a lot of high-ranking people who believed 1123 01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,680 that "the rank and file would not tolerate these people 1124 01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:18,480 and they would all leave if you made them serve with them." 1125 01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:21,960 I think most red-blooded males, and I count myself among them, 1126 01:17:22,000 --> 01:17:25,440 are repelled by the physical genital activities of these people. 1127 01:17:25,480 --> 01:17:29,280 It was put very well to me by a Royal Marine not very long ago, 1128 01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:32,760 who summed it up by saying that men don't like taking showers 1129 01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:35,840 with men who like taking showers with men. 1130 01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,400 The bigotry in the homophobic remarks that these... 1131 01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:43,720 ..generals and air chief marshals were making, 1132 01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:45,240 it was disgusting. 1133 01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:48,600 ED: And then we started to hear about 1134 01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:50,360 another thing that was happening. 1135 01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:54,320 The Ministry of Defence was working on its own secret weapon. 1136 01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:56,360 There's a report coming out tomorrow, 1137 01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:58,520 and I think I can tell you in advance 1138 01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:01,000 that it will show that the vast majority 1139 01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:04,000 of the Armed Forces believe that it would not be good 1140 01:18:04,040 --> 01:18:07,040 for their discipline or their fighting power. 1141 01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:11,960 In 1996 I was asked to undertake 1142 01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:15,600 an investigation into the military case 1143 01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:18,520 for retaining the ban on homosexuals, 1144 01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:20,320 and the team was called 1145 01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:22,840 the Homosexuality Policy Assessment Team, 1146 01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:24,320 or "H-PAT". 1147 01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:28,200 We were military practitioners from all three services, 1148 01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:30,120 plus a psychologist. 1149 01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:34,680 We sat down trying to come up with the clearest questions 1150 01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:37,080 which would get to the underlying issues. 1151 01:18:43,880 --> 01:18:47,960 Questions about accommodation, living on top of each other, 1152 01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:50,320 sharing sleeping bags and showers and things. 1153 01:18:55,200 --> 01:18:56,840 So we sent out questionnaires. 1154 01:18:56,880 --> 01:19:00,360 We conducted hundreds or maybe thousands of interviews. 1155 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:02,080 We ran focus groups. 1156 01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:12,680 And when the results came back, I was somewhat surprised by that. 1157 01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:17,520 I didn't expect opinions to be so unified and so decisive. 1158 01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:23,200 Senior officers, junior officers, service people at all ranks 1159 01:19:23,240 --> 01:19:26,360 felt that the introduction to openly acknowledge homosexuals 1160 01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:28,960 would be divisive and polarising 1161 01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,720 and would create problems for discipline and cohesion. 1162 01:19:34,640 --> 01:19:36,240 That was a major concern. 1163 01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:43,120 So the conclusion was the vast majority of servicemen and women 1164 01:19:43,160 --> 01:19:45,280 did not want the ban to change. 1165 01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:54,720 This document is page after page of adverse comment. 1166 01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:59,040 The report highlighted undoubtedly 1167 01:19:59,080 --> 01:20:02,960 attitudes that were prevalent in the Armed Forces at the time, 1168 01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:06,880 which we felt was just hostility and homophobia. 1169 01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:11,560 And yet those comments appear in this report unchallenged 1170 01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:14,800 because the Ministry of Defence wanted to use them 1171 01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:18,080 as evidence to justify this policy. 1172 01:20:21,440 --> 01:20:25,080 The report also contains some of the methods 1173 01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:27,680 with which homosexuals could be attacked. 1174 01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,920 "Premeditated attacks while sleeping". 1175 01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:34,560 "Striking sleepers with hard objects in towels". 1176 01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:37,760 "Blows with Samson bars". 1177 01:20:37,800 --> 01:20:40,040 It's shocking to think that the Ministry of Defence 1178 01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:41,800 produced a report that says 1179 01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:44,240 I shouldn't be able to serve in the Navy 1180 01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:48,480 because if I do, colleagues in the Navy will try and beat me up. 1181 01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:53,920 These are things that are produced as evidence in this report 1182 01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:57,880 to explain why gays shouldn't be able to serve, for their own good. 1183 01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:01,440 Well, as I say, I was surprised. 1184 01:21:01,480 --> 01:21:04,120 Shocked, a bit. 1185 01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:08,320 But remember, we were talking only about hypothetical violence. 1186 01:21:08,360 --> 01:21:13,280 But it was an indicator of a level of dislike and detestation 1187 01:21:13,320 --> 01:21:15,160 that should be registered. 1188 01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:26,640 I can't be indifferent to the human costs of that policy. 1189 01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:32,480 Which we mentioned in the report and we knew 1190 01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:35,320 ruined the careers of entirely decent people. 1191 01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:41,400 But it was a reasonable expectation that a defence ministry 1192 01:21:41,440 --> 01:21:43,520 in a democratic country could ask 1193 01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:46,200 for this kind of investigation to be done. 1194 01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:51,440 The purpose of that report, as far as I'm concerned, 1195 01:21:51,480 --> 01:21:55,000 was simply to provide a modicum of justification, 1196 01:21:55,040 --> 01:21:58,440 a fig leaf, if you like, for this ridiculous ban. 1197 01:21:58,480 --> 01:22:00,120 Following this report, 1198 01:22:00,160 --> 01:22:02,600 the Ministry of Defence were hoping and hoping 1199 01:22:02,640 --> 01:22:04,400 that perhaps we'd give up the fight. 1200 01:22:04,440 --> 01:22:06,080 We weren't going to. 1201 01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:09,920 We decided to open our second battle front 1202 01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:12,920 and take the action to Parliament. 1203 01:22:12,960 --> 01:22:15,440 REPORTER: Every five years, Parliament gets the chance 1204 01:22:15,480 --> 01:22:19,760 to inspect the services when it considers a new Armed Forces Bill. 1205 01:22:19,800 --> 01:22:22,840 This year's review of the military has been dominated by the row 1206 01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:26,680 over the right of homosexuals to serve in the forces. 1207 01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:29,480 The Armed Forces have different laws to everyone else. 1208 01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:31,440 They have the Armed Forces Discipline Act, 1209 01:22:31,480 --> 01:22:33,840 and every five years they get renewed. 1210 01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:38,520 So the House of Commons Select Committee was going to meet 1211 01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:42,600 in 1996 and decide what needed to be updated. 1212 01:22:42,640 --> 01:22:45,520 We were all fingers crossed that the MPs were going to say 1213 01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:49,760 Ministry of Defence is out of date. It's time for this to change. 1214 01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,840 I was just thinking parliament, MPs, the Select Committee, 1215 01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:56,240 just do what you need to do. Just do it. 1216 01:22:56,280 --> 01:22:59,440 Bite the bullet, sort this out and it will be over, 1217 01:22:59,480 --> 01:23:02,080 and we'll be out of your hair and you can get on with your lives 1218 01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:04,160 and we can get on with ours. 1219 01:23:06,800 --> 01:23:10,000 Introduce yourself and your team. My name is Angela Mason. 1220 01:23:10,040 --> 01:23:12,960 I'm the executive director of Stonewall. 1221 01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:14,560 It was quite nerve-wracking. 1222 01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:17,880 There was all the government officials and military officials 1223 01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:20,240 and parliamentary officials and the press. 1224 01:23:20,280 --> 01:23:23,880 I mean, it was another big theatrical occasion. 1225 01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:27,920 The members of the committee have talked to scores of servicemen, 1226 01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:30,520 and we've formed our own view made in this report, 1227 01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:33,280 which is that servicemen are overwhelmingly 1228 01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:35,960 opposed to homosexuality. Are you saying that's not correct? 1229 01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:39,960 To our horror, the Select Committee gave particular prominence 1230 01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:45,000 to the H-PAT report and to all the negative arguments. 1231 01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:50,640 This, clearly, may well have a morale impact on the Armed Forces. 1232 01:23:53,040 --> 01:23:55,840 It very quickly became clear that the machinery of government, 1233 01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,520 the Ministry of Defence, was determined that we wouldn't win. 1234 01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:03,680 I believe that the military are not seeking to discriminate against you. 1235 01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:06,240 But on the other hand, it seems that perhaps 1236 01:24:06,280 --> 01:24:10,600 you expect positive discrimination in your favour. 1237 01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:15,920 Do you accept the right of a woman to refuse to shower with a lesbian? 1238 01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:21,760 I felt the MPs on the committee weren't all that sympathetic. 1239 01:24:21,800 --> 01:24:24,640 The theatre of it was kind of rigged against us. 1240 01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:29,680 I just wonder if your organisation recognises 1241 01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:33,560 that some people regard homosexual acts as immoral 1242 01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:36,920 or whether you recognise that some people feel that way. 1243 01:24:36,960 --> 01:24:41,160 They were just absolutely convinced that homosexuality would affect 1244 01:24:41,200 --> 01:24:43,000 the security of the Armed Forces, 1245 01:24:43,040 --> 01:24:45,880 the fighting capability of the Armed Forces. 1246 01:24:45,920 --> 01:24:48,720 It is quite difficult to manage the time... 1247 01:24:48,760 --> 01:24:51,640 I thought the MPs were pretty appalling, to be honest. 1248 01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:53,600 Thank you very much for coming. 1249 01:24:53,640 --> 01:24:57,520 They went off to vote, and within the week we had the result. 1250 01:24:57,560 --> 01:25:00,800 REPORTER: A special Commons committee set up to examine the bill 1251 01:25:00,840 --> 01:25:03,160 decided to back the Ministry of Defence's 1252 01:25:03,200 --> 01:25:05,840 current ban on gays and lesbians. 1253 01:25:05,880 --> 01:25:10,320 This is a clear analysis that the admission of homosexuals 1254 01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:13,720 to the Armed Forces would undermine the cohesion, 1255 01:25:13,760 --> 01:25:16,800 the morale and the fighting power of our Armed Forces, 1256 01:25:16,840 --> 01:25:18,120 which are a unique asset. 1257 01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:19,800 The House of Commons Select Committee 1258 01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:22,920 was another one of those moments when the ban could have been lifted, 1259 01:25:22,960 --> 01:25:25,160 and, sadly, they didn't. 1260 01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:32,360 I remember feelings of enormous disappointment 1261 01:25:32,400 --> 01:25:35,640 that our parliamentary system had failed. 1262 01:25:37,480 --> 01:25:42,040 We felt that we were being left behind by the bigotry 1263 01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:44,200 and the homophobia that the establishment 1264 01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:45,920 was still showing towards us. 1265 01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:52,120 Quite a few of the campaigners like me, 1266 01:25:52,160 --> 01:25:56,680 who'd been there at the beginning, began to run out of steam. 1267 01:25:58,480 --> 01:26:02,520 DUNCAN: But we had to keep going. We had to keep going for others 1268 01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:04,800 because there were a lot of people getting hurt. 1269 01:26:14,520 --> 01:26:20,080 In April 1997, I was asked to go to the RAF police. 1270 01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:27,600 And they just asked me, "SSE Austin, do you have homosexual tendencies?" 1271 01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:30,200 Literally burst into tears, 1272 01:26:30,240 --> 01:26:32,560 I answered the question for them, 1273 01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:37,560 and within minutes, seconds probably, 1274 01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:42,360 they'd already explained to me that I was no longer fit for purpose 1275 01:26:42,400 --> 01:26:44,480 and I was incompatible to service life. 1276 01:26:47,680 --> 01:26:49,760 I had exemplary service. 1277 01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:53,080 I'd been mentioned in the Queen's Birthday honours list in 1996 1278 01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:55,520 with the Commander in Chief's commendation, 1279 01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:58,560 but I was kicked out for being gay. 1280 01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:00,360 I could have gone to military prison. 1281 01:27:00,400 --> 01:27:03,080 That was the same year when Tony Blair came to power 1282 01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:04,840 with New Labour. 1283 01:27:04,880 --> 01:27:08,560 Princess Diana died. It's not that long ago. 1284 01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:15,040 We knew that we couldn't go any further in the UK law courts. 1285 01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:18,280 It had gone as far as it could go, but we were not going to give up. 1286 01:27:18,320 --> 01:27:21,080 We had one last throw of the dice. 1287 01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:23,200 And that was to follow the cases all the way 1288 01:27:23,240 --> 01:27:26,840 to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg. 1289 01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:30,000 REPORTER: Former service personnel sacked for being gay 1290 01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:31,960 have been going to the British courts for years 1291 01:27:32,000 --> 01:27:33,960 to try to have the ban overturned. 1292 01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:36,160 But because it's an issue of human rights, 1293 01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:39,120 it's the European courts that will eventually decide. 1294 01:27:39,160 --> 01:27:41,960 By the time we got to the European Court of Human Rights, 1295 01:27:42,000 --> 01:27:44,880 we'd been fighting this for years. 1296 01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:48,920 We were all exhausted. 1297 01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:52,320 But there was this last-gasp battle that we can fight. 1298 01:27:55,120 --> 01:27:59,680 On the day, we have 30 minutes to present our oral argument, 1299 01:27:59,720 --> 01:28:01,600 and that's not a long period of time. 1300 01:28:03,120 --> 01:28:08,280 It's a very short hearing, and it was not a foregone conclusion 1301 01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:11,120 because former Soviet Union countries 1302 01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:13,160 had joined that court, 1303 01:28:13,200 --> 01:28:16,080 that they were going to be more conservative attitudes 1304 01:28:16,120 --> 01:28:18,440 than we'd seen before. 1305 01:28:18,480 --> 01:28:21,280 I declare open the present hearing 1306 01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:24,880 before the European Court of Human Rights. 1307 01:28:24,920 --> 01:28:28,720 One judge looked very unhappy during my presentation, 1308 01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:30,320 and he said to me, 1309 01:28:30,360 --> 01:28:35,400 "Well, what would happen if one of your clients was on manoeuvres 1310 01:28:35,440 --> 01:28:38,000 and they had to go up a mountain 1311 01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:43,120 and they all had to huddle together for warmth? What then?" 1312 01:28:43,160 --> 01:28:46,240 And my co-counsel whispered to me, 1313 01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:49,000 "Tell him that if it was that cold, 1314 01:28:49,040 --> 01:28:51,960 the last thing they want to do was get their dick out." 1315 01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:59,640 And I gave the judges an expurgated version of that answer. 1316 01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:08,280 And then it was over, and we waited for their judgment. 1317 01:29:09,560 --> 01:29:13,560 You never know what the dynamics of the court are going to be 1318 01:29:13,600 --> 01:29:15,280 and until you get the judgment, 1319 01:29:15,320 --> 01:29:18,000 there's always a sense of danger, jeopardy. 1320 01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:26,960 I, like a number of people, had gone to Stonewall's offices. 1321 01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:29,360 We'd been told that the verdict 1322 01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:32,080 was going to come through later that day. 1323 01:29:34,480 --> 01:29:37,000 We were all stood around the fax machine, 1324 01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:39,920 cos we knew it was going to come in on the fax. 1325 01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:43,360 And I remember feeling very, very stressed. 1326 01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:49,840 ED: I'm always an optimist, 1327 01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:52,680 but based on what had happened before, 1328 01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:55,480 the odds were absolutely stacked against us. 1329 01:30:00,560 --> 01:30:03,680 DUNCAN: Slowly, these pages came through. 1330 01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:08,520 Lots and lots of legal preamble. 1331 01:30:10,760 --> 01:30:14,000 ELAINE: My heart was pounding, guts churning. 1332 01:30:15,720 --> 01:30:18,560 Because of the horrors of what we'd all been through, 1333 01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:21,520 this moment was so massive. 1334 01:30:23,440 --> 01:30:26,640 MIKE: It was eight years to get to this point. 1335 01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:30,600 We'd been used to being rejected time and time again. 1336 01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:33,480 You know, dare we believe in hope? 1337 01:30:36,160 --> 01:30:38,640 Somebody picked it up and read it out to everybody, 1338 01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:40,680 otherwise it would have been torn to pieces. 1339 01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:44,400 And it was almost the last page that made it clear, 1340 01:30:44,440 --> 01:30:47,880 there was this moment of disbelief. 1341 01:30:47,920 --> 01:30:49,880 And then finally... 1342 01:30:49,920 --> 01:30:52,120 Bang! "We've got it!" 1343 01:30:54,480 --> 01:30:56,880 The judges had ruled in our favour. 1344 01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:02,760 I just went, "Whoa-ho-ho! 1345 01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:05,920 It's happened at last! They've bloody well done it! 1346 01:31:05,960 --> 01:31:07,280 I can't believe it!" 1347 01:31:07,320 --> 01:31:09,720 REPORTER: Joy among gay rights campaigners 1348 01:31:09,760 --> 01:31:12,800 as the news comes through to the London headquarters of Stonewall. 1349 01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:16,320 It was the unanimous verdict that Britain's ban on gays serving 1350 01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:18,280 was discriminatory and illegal... 1351 01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:23,800 We just thought, "God, we did it! We did it. This thing, it's gone." 1352 01:31:23,840 --> 01:31:27,280 No one was ever, ever going to go through... 1353 01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:30,320 Oh, here I go again! ..what we'd been through. 1354 01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:33,720 And I remember turning round to Elaine and saying, 1355 01:31:33,760 --> 01:31:37,640 "So we can change it to 'Rank Insiders' now?" (CHUCKLES) 1356 01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:40,480 REPORTER: There are many within the armed forces 1357 01:31:40,520 --> 01:31:42,720 who are horrified by today's decisions. 1358 01:31:42,760 --> 01:31:45,680 Generals have actively lobbied ministers for years 1359 01:31:45,720 --> 01:31:48,160 to keep gays out of the military, 1360 01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:51,760 but these judges have said it is nothing but prejudice. 1361 01:31:54,200 --> 01:31:57,280 The Government cannot enforce this ban, 1362 01:31:57,320 --> 01:31:59,600 given this very clear and damning judgement. 1363 01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:02,120 REPORTER: Within two hours, the Defence Secretary declared 1364 01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:05,040 Britain would accept the verdict and immediately halted 1365 01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:07,680 all disciplinary proceedings based on sexuality. 1366 01:32:07,720 --> 01:32:10,720 DUNCAN: This was the proudest moment of my life. 1367 01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:14,280 We had taken on the Government and the Ministry of Defence 1368 01:32:14,320 --> 01:32:15,960 and we won. 1369 01:32:17,480 --> 01:32:22,000 We made history. We made history, that team. 1370 01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:26,360 It had an impact not just on us and the armed forces, 1371 01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:30,240 but upon every single employer in Europe, 1372 01:32:30,280 --> 01:32:33,560 because at last there was a piece of legislation 1373 01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:37,520 that said you may not discriminate against someone 1374 01:32:37,560 --> 01:32:39,880 just because they're lesbian or gay. 1375 01:32:50,280 --> 01:32:54,160 (RADIO) The Government has just announced an independent review 1376 01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:59,200 with careers destroyed overnight. The losses were huge. 1377 01:32:59,240 --> 01:33:01,840 The Government hopes the review will go some way 1378 01:33:01,880 --> 01:33:04,080 to righting the wrongs of the past. 1379 01:33:04,120 --> 01:33:09,280 LGBTQ-plus veterans say the damage can never be fully repaired. 1380 01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:11,920 After a great deal of work campaigning, 1381 01:33:11,960 --> 01:33:15,400 the independent review was announced in January 2022. 1382 01:33:15,440 --> 01:33:19,640 Over a thousand people stepped forward to give evidence. 1383 01:33:21,280 --> 01:33:24,560 What the independent review, I hope, succeeds in doing 1384 01:33:24,600 --> 01:33:26,720 is pulling out the reality now 1385 01:33:26,760 --> 01:33:30,200 of what really happened in the Government's name with that ban. 1386 01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:33,800 You know, what it did to people, the damage it did that's lifelong. 1387 01:33:37,480 --> 01:33:40,160 People lost their homes. People lost their pensions. 1388 01:33:40,200 --> 01:33:42,400 People went to prison. 1389 01:33:42,440 --> 01:33:46,520 It's had a big impact on me psychologically. 1390 01:33:46,560 --> 01:33:50,680 A lot of mental scars and flashbacks. 1391 01:33:50,720 --> 01:33:53,840 It has a lot to answer for. 1392 01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:59,080 If I'm honest, I would say it took me years 1393 01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:02,080 to rebuild my life after discharge. 1394 01:34:02,120 --> 01:34:06,200 We have a gross injustice which we need to undo, 1395 01:34:06,240 --> 01:34:09,400 and there are people out there still hurting. 1396 01:34:11,280 --> 01:34:13,160 I loved being in the Army, 1397 01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:17,000 and it was taken away and it's never been replaced. 1398 01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:21,720 From that point of view, my life is empty and remains empty. 1399 01:34:25,400 --> 01:34:29,040 ELAINE: It's 23 years after the ban was lifted. 1400 01:34:29,080 --> 01:34:31,720 I'm in my 60s and I'm still battling 1401 01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:34,960 for some form of proper apology and recompense. 1402 01:34:36,400 --> 01:34:38,840 I don't think I'll ever fully get over it. 1403 01:34:40,360 --> 01:34:42,640 The best and most wonderful moments of my life 1404 01:34:42,680 --> 01:34:45,000 mixed in with the most hideous. 1405 01:34:46,240 --> 01:34:48,000 And there's still this anger. 1406 01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:52,360 I don't think I can move on from it, even if I want to. 1407 01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:55,200 No, I... Yeah, it'll always be there. 1408 01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:46,720 AccessibleCustomerService@sky.uk