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Usually, I have absolutely
no idea of where to begin,
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00:00:29,238 --> 00:00:31,865
but you gave me an idea of where to begin.
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00:00:33,617 --> 00:00:34,826
And what was that?
6
00:00:36,537 --> 00:00:41,250
You asked me about
the nature of our relationship.
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00:00:41,250 --> 00:00:43,836
It went further than that, I think.
It said, "Who are you?"
8
00:00:43,836 --> 00:00:46,630
Because, I've looked at much of your work.
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00:00:46,630 --> 00:00:51,635
Sometimes, you're a spectral figure,
sometimes you're God.
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00:00:51,635 --> 00:00:53,762
And sometimes you're present.
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I needed to know who I was talking to.
Were you my friend across the fire?
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00:01:03,146 --> 00:01:06,066
Were you a stranger on a bus?
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00:01:06,817 --> 00:01:08,193
Who are you?
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00:01:09,444 --> 00:01:11,613
This is a performance art.
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You need to know whether you're performing
to a trade union, an elite audience.
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00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:24,877
You need to know something about the
ambitions of the people you're talking to.
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00:01:25,836 --> 00:01:28,172
And if I can't answer
that question?
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00:01:28,172 --> 00:01:30,841
Not that I won't, but maybe I can't.
19
00:01:31,884 --> 00:01:35,762
Then we'll struggle on and find out
who you are.
20
00:01:52,279 --> 00:01:54,656
When I was first in Army Intelligence,
21
00:01:54,656 --> 00:01:58,952
I'd conducted a lot of interviews,
which were also interrogations.
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00:01:58,952 --> 00:02:04,416
Immediately, in the relationship, there is
a dependence upon me, the interrogator.
23
00:02:05,834 --> 00:02:09,545
"Is your mother okay? Do you want me
to make a call to your home?"
24
00:02:09,545 --> 00:02:14,885
It's the bonding, real or artificial,
that opens the discussion.
25
00:02:16,053 --> 00:02:19,806
First of all, a statement that
I'm the only person you've got.
26
00:02:20,933 --> 00:02:23,268
Establishing a dependence?
27
00:02:24,144 --> 00:02:27,648
Establishing their dependence
on the interrogator, yes.
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00:02:29,149 --> 00:02:33,153
When you want something to be expressed
that may not be true,
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00:02:33,153 --> 00:02:36,907
and you know it's not true,
that's a beginning.
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{\an8}"There's scarcely a book of mine
that didn't have The Pigeon Tunnel
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00:02:44,164 --> 00:02:47,793
at some time or another
as its working title."
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00:02:52,214 --> 00:02:54,883
"Its origin is easily explained.
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00:02:55,551 --> 00:02:58,929
I was in my mid-teens
when my father decided to take me
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00:02:58,929 --> 00:03:02,599
on one of his gambling sprees
to Monte Carlo.
35
00:03:05,519 --> 00:03:08,981
Close by the old casino
stood the sporting club."
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00:03:11,275 --> 00:03:13,986
"At its base lay a stretch of lawn
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00:03:13,986 --> 00:03:16,321
and a shooting range looking out to sea."
38
00:03:28,917 --> 00:03:32,838
{\an8}"Under the lawn,
ran small, parallel tunnels
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00:03:32,838 --> 00:03:35,507
{\an8}that emerged in a row
at the sea's edge.
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00:03:40,179 --> 00:03:44,183
Into them were inserted live pigeons...
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00:03:44,183 --> 00:03:47,769
...that had been hatched and trapped
on the casino roof.
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00:03:52,608 --> 00:03:56,653
Their job was to flutter their way
along the pitch-dark tunnel
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00:03:56,653 --> 00:03:59,656
until they emerged
in the Mediterranean sky
44
00:03:59,656 --> 00:04:03,702
as targets for the well-lunched
sporting gentlemen..."
45
00:04:03,702 --> 00:04:04,995
"Halt! Halt!"
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00:04:04,995 --> 00:04:08,248
"...who were standing in wait
with their shotguns."
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00:04:18,132 --> 00:04:21,094
"Pigeons who were missed or merely winged
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00:04:21,094 --> 00:04:24,932
returned to the place of their birth
on the casino roof,
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00:04:24,932 --> 00:04:27,768
where the same traps awaited them.
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00:04:31,063 --> 00:04:34,441
Quite why this image has haunted me
for so long
51
00:04:35,609 --> 00:04:37,528
is something the listener...
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00:04:38,403 --> 00:04:41,698
...is perhaps better able
to judge than I am."
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00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,339
The name David Cornwell is
probably unfamiliar to most of you.
54
00:04:57,339 --> 00:05:01,176
He's an expert on secrets,
a former spy himself,
55
00:05:01,176 --> 00:05:04,888
and the author of two dozen books,
virtually all of them best sellers,
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00:05:04,888 --> 00:05:07,808
{\an8}written under the pen name
of John le Carré.
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00:05:09,393 --> 00:05:13,188
{\an8}Cornwell has been living this
double life for more than 50 years now
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00:05:13,188 --> 00:05:14,606
{\an8}and rarely gives interviews.
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00:05:16,984 --> 00:05:19,444
Betrayal fascinates me.
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00:05:20,028 --> 00:05:23,824
I've lived through a period
of endless betrayal.
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00:05:26,243 --> 00:05:29,913
When I went into the secret world,
I served in two successive services,
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00:05:29,913 --> 00:05:32,416
both of which were betrayed to the hilt.
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00:05:33,333 --> 00:05:35,794
I felt betrayed as a child, if you like.
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00:05:37,462 --> 00:05:39,882
I felt that I had betrayed people myself.
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00:05:48,223 --> 00:05:49,975
Like many artistic people,
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00:05:51,351 --> 00:05:57,691
I have lived from early childhood
inside an imaginative bubble.
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00:06:00,235 --> 00:06:03,155
When I was in the secret world,
it wasn't enough for me.
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00:06:03,155 --> 00:06:07,326
I did very little of it.
I was very junior, I wasn't told much.
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00:06:07,326 --> 00:06:11,538
So, what I did was reinvent the secret
world and fill my own people with it.
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00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:19,922
In many of the stories,
there are dupes and string pullers.
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00:06:22,216 --> 00:06:26,136
Those in control
and those controlled by others.
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00:06:29,890 --> 00:06:31,975
Well, now we're talking
about my childhood.
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00:06:38,815 --> 00:06:41,527
My father was a confidence trickster.
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00:06:41,527 --> 00:06:45,030
Life was a stage.
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00:06:47,199 --> 00:06:49,159
Where pretense was everything.
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00:06:50,494 --> 00:06:53,539
Being off stage was boring.
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00:06:53,539 --> 00:06:56,041
And risk was attractive.
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00:06:56,041 --> 00:07:00,379
But above all, what was attractive
was the imprint of personality.
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00:07:02,673 --> 00:07:04,800
Of truth, we didn't speak.
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00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,760
Of conviction, we didn't speak.
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00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,429
So, you felt like a dupe?
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00:07:10,764 --> 00:07:13,684
No, I joined. I joined.
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00:07:16,061 --> 00:07:20,524
You polish your act,
learn to tell funny stories. Show off.
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00:07:22,109 --> 00:07:25,279
You discover early that there is no center
to a human being.
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00:07:27,906 --> 00:07:31,535
I wasn't a dupe.
I was invited to dupe other people.
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00:07:32,661 --> 00:07:36,790
If we moved from one place to another,
didn't pay the bills.
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00:07:36,790 --> 00:07:39,168
If we had to put the lights out
on the house
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00:07:39,168 --> 00:07:43,505
because somebody
was after my father, Ronnie,
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00:07:43,505 --> 00:07:47,593
that seemed at the time,
the way people lived.
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00:07:47,593 --> 00:07:49,970
Now, these are not hard luck stories.
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00:07:50,721 --> 00:07:53,849
Graham Greene said, and I quote him often,
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00:07:53,849 --> 00:07:57,269
"Childhood is the credit balance
of the writer."
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00:07:57,269 --> 00:08:00,981
It's not a lament,
it's just a self-examination.
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00:08:08,739 --> 00:08:11,491
"I have seen the house
where I was born,
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00:08:11,491 --> 00:08:14,745
but the house of my birth that I prefer
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00:08:14,745 --> 00:08:18,582
is a different one
built in my imagination.
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00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:24,713
It's red brick and clattery
and due for demolition,
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00:08:24,713 --> 00:08:30,260
with broken windows, a 'For Sale' sign
and an old bath in the garden.
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00:08:30,260 --> 00:08:33,722
A place for kids to hide in
rather than be born.
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00:08:35,390 --> 00:08:39,645
But born there I was,
or so my imagination insists."
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"I was born in the attic
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00:08:42,563 --> 00:08:44,566
among a stack of brown boxes
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00:08:44,566 --> 00:08:48,320
that my father always carted round
with him when he was on the run."
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00:08:52,783 --> 00:08:57,162
"My mother lies on a camp bed,
pitifully doing her best,
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whatever her best may entail."
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00:09:13,303 --> 00:09:14,721
"So, I am born...
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...and packed up with my mother's
few possessions,
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for we have recently suffered
another bailiffs' visitation
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and are travelling light."
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"The lid of the boot is locked
from the outside."
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00:09:34,366 --> 00:09:39,705
"I'm already on the run.
I've been on the run ever since."
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00:10:00,142 --> 00:10:02,644
My mother disappeared
when I was five.
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00:10:04,188 --> 00:10:06,398
I had no relationship with her at all.
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00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:11,445
There were many substitute mothers
who passed through my father's hands.
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00:10:11,445 --> 00:10:15,616
{\an8}One particular stepmother,
who in her own way was heroic,
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00:10:15,616 --> 00:10:17,492
{\an8}steadied the ship for a while.
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00:10:24,875 --> 00:10:27,294
{\an8}My mother was a mystery.
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00:10:27,294 --> 00:10:31,006
{\an8}Because it was never properly revealed
what had happened to her.
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00:10:31,006 --> 00:10:33,050
Was she dead, was she alive?
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00:10:38,639 --> 00:10:41,016
Ronnie didn't like hard truths.
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00:10:46,855 --> 00:10:49,149
I met her again at 21.
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00:10:51,735 --> 00:10:54,696
I wrote to her brother,
he wrote back, saying,
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00:10:54,696 --> 00:10:58,492
"Here's her address.
Never tell her that I told you."
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00:10:59,159 --> 00:11:01,578
So, I wrote to my mother, said,
"Your brother tells me..."
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00:11:01,578 --> 00:11:04,414
So, I felt completely unbound
by this injunction.
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00:11:09,002 --> 00:11:13,882
Did you imagine her having regrets
about leaving you and your brother?
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00:11:15,092 --> 00:11:19,388
Well, when I met her,
I asked how she felt about it.
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00:11:20,264 --> 00:11:23,892
And she replied,
and it was always her reply,
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00:11:24,852 --> 00:11:27,646
that my father had been intolerable
to live with,
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00:11:27,646 --> 00:11:31,483
that she got sick of the trail of
mistresses he was bringing to the house.
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00:11:31,483 --> 00:11:34,528
That there was never any money
passing through.
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00:11:34,528 --> 00:11:37,948
And she didn't like all these crooks
coming through his life.
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00:11:37,948 --> 00:11:42,369
She said, if she had attempted
any other measure,
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00:11:42,369 --> 00:11:45,706
he knew so many wonderful lawyers,
which indeed he did,
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00:11:45,706 --> 00:11:49,293
that she would never have had a chance
in the marital court.
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00:11:49,293 --> 00:11:53,172
So, she gave up all that stuff
and thought she'd just push off.
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00:11:59,887 --> 00:12:02,472
Do you remember the day she left?
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00:12:02,472 --> 00:12:03,640
No.
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00:12:06,101 --> 00:12:10,355
If you are going to leave your children,
that night,
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00:12:11,690 --> 00:12:13,483
with your white suitcase packed,
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00:12:15,485 --> 00:12:17,070
do you kiss them goodbye?
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00:12:20,699 --> 00:12:24,453
Did she come into the room where we slept?
Take a last look at us?
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00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:35,923
So, I imagine it.
I imagine that she did.
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00:12:56,276 --> 00:12:59,530
You came into possession
of this suitcase.
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00:12:59,530 --> 00:13:01,031
When she died,
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00:13:01,865 --> 00:13:05,619
I spotted this beautiful white hide
suitcase from Harrods
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00:13:05,619 --> 00:13:07,955
lined with silk inside.
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00:13:07,955 --> 00:13:12,751
{\an8}With her initials on the outside,
"O.M.C.," Olive Moore Cornwell.
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00:13:14,169 --> 00:13:20,133
{\an8}That must have been the suitcase
into which she packed her clothes.
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00:13:21,593 --> 00:13:25,222
I imagined the amazing flimsies
that it would have contained.
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00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:29,017
{\an8}And the most exquisite clothes.
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00:13:34,648 --> 00:13:37,734
{\an8}She took it into a kind of poverty.
153
00:13:37,734 --> 00:13:40,112
She ran away with a chap who had no money.
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00:13:40,112 --> 00:13:42,114
I imagined the suitcase being unpacked
155
00:13:42,114 --> 00:13:45,200
and the last of the luxury
gradually fading away.
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00:13:46,410 --> 00:13:48,787
I kept the suitcase.
It's the only relic I have of her.
157
00:13:48,787 --> 00:13:51,748
Physical evidence that
that thing happened.
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00:13:53,166 --> 00:13:57,546
What did the suitcase mean to you?
Why keep it?
159
00:13:58,338 --> 00:14:01,925
I accused it in my mind of being,
as it were, a conspirator
160
00:14:01,925 --> 00:14:05,012
in her secret departure
from the house one night.
161
00:14:07,556 --> 00:14:09,057
To me, it's historic.
162
00:14:13,353 --> 00:14:17,107
She was impenetrable emotionally.
163
00:14:17,107 --> 00:14:21,695
I never heard her
express a serious feeling.
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00:14:21,695 --> 00:14:26,950
But when she went to nursing home
for her last year or so,
165
00:14:27,784 --> 00:14:31,413
then she created a fantasy
with the nurses.
166
00:14:31,413 --> 00:14:37,586
She had painted to the nurses
a picture of maternal loyalty to us.
167
00:14:37,586 --> 00:14:41,340
The long lives we had shared,
all the fun we'd had.
168
00:14:41,340 --> 00:14:44,468
So, she'd filled in the gap years,
if you like.
169
00:14:44,468 --> 00:14:47,262
And when I attended her dying,
170
00:14:49,348 --> 00:14:52,809
the irony of the moment was
she mistook me for my father.
171
00:14:59,608 --> 00:15:03,987
She said,
"You never brought me orchids."
172
00:15:05,864 --> 00:15:09,576
I think it was a reference
to some other amour he had.
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00:15:10,369 --> 00:15:11,703
I will never know.
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00:15:13,038 --> 00:15:14,623
And I said, "What color do you like?"
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00:15:14,623 --> 00:15:17,751
She said, "I don't care. I've never
seen them. Bring me an orchid."
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00:15:25,342 --> 00:15:29,596
{\an8}People loved Ronnie to the end
of his days, even people he'd robbed.
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00:15:33,934 --> 00:15:37,145
{\an8}When he was on stage beguiling people,
178
00:15:37,145 --> 00:15:40,732
he absolutely believed
in what he was doing and saying.
179
00:15:42,317 --> 00:15:47,155
{\an8}These spasms of immense charm
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00:15:47,155 --> 00:15:53,579
and persuasiveness
were his moments of feeling real.
181
00:15:53,579 --> 00:15:58,750
"Son? When I'm judged,
as judged I shall surely be,
182
00:15:59,751 --> 00:16:04,715
I shall be judged on how I treated you
and your brother Tony.
183
00:16:04,715 --> 00:16:06,175
That will be God's will."
184
00:16:06,175 --> 00:16:08,760
God was a big pal of his.
185
00:16:10,971 --> 00:16:15,893
Whether he believed in God is mysterious,
but he was certain God believed in him.
186
00:16:19,605 --> 00:16:24,318
These extraordinary, ingenious,
confidence tricks
187
00:16:24,318 --> 00:16:27,487
were part of a conversation
he was having with God.
188
00:16:29,823 --> 00:16:34,661
"If I do this, can I get away with it?
If I do that, can I get away with it?"
189
00:16:34,661 --> 00:16:36,747
Bargaining with God.
190
00:16:36,747 --> 00:16:40,918
Yeah, I think more betting with God.
191
00:16:40,918 --> 00:16:44,004
"If I put this much on the table,
how about that?"
192
00:16:47,299 --> 00:16:51,678
Ronnie always, whether he had to steal
or borrow or bribe the headmaster,
193
00:16:51,678 --> 00:16:54,389
wanted me to have the posh education.
194
00:16:55,807 --> 00:17:00,395
I learned the manners and the attitudes
of a class to which I did not belong.
195
00:17:04,858 --> 00:17:08,654
I studied and I frequently felt slighted.
196
00:17:14,117 --> 00:17:18,539
There were times when I hated the class
to which I had been assigned.
197
00:17:18,539 --> 00:17:20,249
I was on enemy territory.
198
00:17:20,249 --> 00:17:23,627
But I learned to dress properly.
I learned to speak properly.
199
00:17:23,627 --> 00:17:27,673
I turned myself into one of them,
but I never felt like one of them.
200
00:17:31,593 --> 00:17:34,513
{\an8}From a very early age
I was a little spy.
201
00:17:37,015 --> 00:17:40,185
Whenever Ronnie left the house,
I investigated.
202
00:17:43,105 --> 00:17:45,566
I did not know what the world held.
203
00:17:49,611 --> 00:17:54,241
When the debt collectors came in,
my toys disappeared.
204
00:17:54,241 --> 00:17:56,827
The furniture disappeared.
Women disappeared.
205
00:17:56,827 --> 00:17:58,370
{\an8}Mothers disappeared.
206
00:18:02,833 --> 00:18:04,710
When Ronnie was really frightened,
207
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:07,004
and it was, "Black the house out,
put the lights out,
208
00:18:07,004 --> 00:18:09,047
put the cars in the back garden."
209
00:18:09,923 --> 00:18:13,677
He wasn't afraid of the law,
he was afraid of the mob.
210
00:18:15,220 --> 00:18:19,266
Jealous heart
Oh, jealous heart
211
00:18:19,266 --> 00:18:20,809
Stop beating
212
00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:28,233
Can't you see the damage
You have done...
213
00:18:29,526 --> 00:18:34,323
When he died,
he had offices in Jermyn Street.
214
00:18:35,824 --> 00:18:38,493
On the top floor lived
ladies of the night.
215
00:18:41,747 --> 00:18:45,834
Who, as he put it, were always ready
to cook some sausages for him.
216
00:18:48,670 --> 00:18:51,757
He had two Ford Zephyr cars,
217
00:18:51,757 --> 00:18:56,428
a house in Henley,
a house in Tite Street, Chelsea.
218
00:18:56,428 --> 00:18:58,805
For what purpose, I know not.
219
00:18:58,805 --> 00:19:00,516
And he had these offices.
220
00:19:01,683 --> 00:19:07,898
We could not find on his person,
in the drawers of his desk,
221
00:19:07,898 --> 00:19:10,567
enough money to pay the staff
until the end of the week.
222
00:19:10,567 --> 00:19:12,236
There was no money.
223
00:19:14,196 --> 00:19:17,658
There was a horse in France
at Maisons-Laffitte,
224
00:19:17,658 --> 00:19:19,910
a couple of horses in Ireland.
225
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,666
You called them,
"the never-was-ers."
226
00:19:25,666 --> 00:19:27,417
The never-was-ers.
227
00:19:29,962 --> 00:19:33,549
He had a world champion jockey,
Gordon Richards.
228
00:19:36,009 --> 00:19:41,348
When Gordon retired, he agreed
to select horses at auction for Ronnie,
229
00:19:41,348 --> 00:19:43,183
and, at some point,
he must have paid for them.
230
00:19:45,853 --> 00:19:50,440
His great joy was to appear at Ascot
and have a horse in a race.
231
00:20:00,534 --> 00:20:04,746
Ronnie clearly reached a point
where the fraternity of bookmakers
232
00:20:04,746 --> 00:20:07,457
would not have him on the course anymore,
233
00:20:07,457 --> 00:20:10,252
and they had enforcers
that made that clear.
234
00:20:12,087 --> 00:20:14,882
And you better look out
if you show up at a race course,
235
00:20:14,882 --> 00:20:16,925
and you haven't paid your debts.
236
00:20:19,887 --> 00:20:23,098
I was dispatched with a suitcase
full of money
237
00:20:25,475 --> 00:20:28,395
to distribute among the bookmakers.
238
00:20:28,395 --> 00:20:31,690
Wow! It's Rupert.
He's pulling away now!
239
00:20:33,108 --> 00:20:35,777
He had a horse named
after my half-brother,
240
00:20:35,777 --> 00:20:38,238
and it ran in the Cesarewitch.
241
00:20:48,665 --> 00:20:52,002
All of a sudden,
we had a real harvest of cash.
242
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,213
Thank you, boys.
243
00:20:58,592 --> 00:21:00,636
I sat on the train with it.
244
00:21:12,689 --> 00:21:14,816
A big man came up to me.
245
00:21:24,535 --> 00:21:26,245
You're Ronnie Cornwell's son, aren't you?
246
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,381
Don't do that again, sonny.
247
00:21:39,883 --> 00:21:42,094
And he just touched my nose.
248
00:21:43,929 --> 00:21:47,516
And when I got back, Ronnie was waiting.
249
00:21:54,356 --> 00:21:56,650
And he counted and counted,
250
00:21:57,985 --> 00:22:00,654
and he couldn't believe
I hadn't kept some.
251
00:22:00,654 --> 00:22:01,780
Come on, boy.
252
00:22:01,780 --> 00:22:03,448
Show me your pockets.
253
00:22:03,448 --> 00:22:05,409
Come on, show me what you've done.
254
00:22:10,497 --> 00:22:13,917
Then I think I got a fiver
at the end of it for being a good boy.
255
00:22:16,295 --> 00:22:20,841
Was this a disappointment
to your father, this lack of larceny?
256
00:22:20,841 --> 00:22:22,926
It was puzzlement that...
257
00:22:24,052 --> 00:22:26,513
"You can't be that good," he thought.
258
00:22:27,639 --> 00:22:31,018
"No one is. This isn't human nature."
259
00:22:31,018 --> 00:22:34,855
But this is such
a romantic childhood, is it not?
260
00:22:34,855 --> 00:22:37,858
Well, yes.
I really need to get that across,
261
00:22:37,858 --> 00:22:41,278
that whatever revelations
came to me later,
262
00:22:41,278 --> 00:22:47,242
and whatever deprivals I seem
to have suffered, mothers and things,
263
00:22:47,242 --> 00:22:49,161
it was terribly exciting.
264
00:22:55,542 --> 00:22:59,880
We haven't mentioned the fact
that I was destined to become a barrister.
265
00:23:00,881 --> 00:23:03,967
And my elder brother was destined
to become a solicitor.
266
00:23:06,094 --> 00:23:12,142
I was determined to go to Oxford,
and they offered me a place.
267
00:23:14,311 --> 00:23:17,105
Ronnie demanded to know
what he was paying for.
268
00:23:19,733 --> 00:23:23,695
In cowardice,
I said that I would be studying Law.
269
00:23:24,863 --> 00:23:30,953
And when he heard on the grapevine
that I was reading Modern Languages,
270
00:23:30,953 --> 00:23:36,250
he descended on my tutor and demanded
to know how the hell this had happened.
271
00:23:37,209 --> 00:23:39,127
Was it their fault or mine?
272
00:23:41,672 --> 00:23:44,675
My mentor, Vivian Green,
showed him the door.
273
00:23:52,057 --> 00:23:54,101
{\an8}So, I went on reading
Modern Languages.
274
00:23:59,106 --> 00:24:03,402
And in the middle of the second year,
he made a really dramatic bankruptcy.
275
00:24:03,402 --> 00:24:06,321
It was massive,
for a million and a quarter pounds.
276
00:24:09,533 --> 00:24:14,997
The Westminster Bank in Oxford,
then, for reasons of its own,
277
00:24:14,997 --> 00:24:17,624
refused to keep my account and closed it.
278
00:24:20,377 --> 00:24:27,134
I had been very close to my girlfriend
at the time, so we decided to marry.
279
00:24:31,054 --> 00:24:35,017
{\an8}I went and taught at a low life
private prep school.
280
00:24:36,393 --> 00:24:39,271
And that was the same preparatory school
which, in my mind,
281
00:24:39,271 --> 00:24:42,482
I put at the beginning
of Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy.
282
00:24:45,819 --> 00:24:48,363
We lived in real poverty
283
00:24:48,363 --> 00:24:51,909
with an outside loo and that stuff,
and a tin bath.
284
00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:54,703
And then, to my mind, heroically,
285
00:24:54,703 --> 00:24:58,498
Vivian Green inspired the college
to call me back.
286
00:25:01,043 --> 00:25:03,462
And they would somehow
find the money for me.
287
00:25:04,922 --> 00:25:07,758
So, we went back and they found us
a grand flat to live in.
288
00:25:07,758 --> 00:25:09,801
Life had changed completely.
289
00:25:10,969 --> 00:25:13,847
The institutional allure returned
290
00:25:13,847 --> 00:25:17,434
when Eton invited me
to come and teach the top class.
291
00:25:17,434 --> 00:25:20,729
I thought I'd be an Eton schoolmaster
for the rest of my life.
292
00:25:22,439 --> 00:25:25,025
Then, after two years,
I was fed up with it.
293
00:25:25,817 --> 00:25:29,821
And the spies lured me, and I thought
I would be a spy for the rest of my life.
294
00:25:34,493 --> 00:25:38,163
It's terribly difficult
to recruit for a secret service.
295
00:25:38,163 --> 00:25:41,667
In the end, you're looking for somebody
who's a bit bad,
296
00:25:43,752 --> 00:25:45,754
but at the same time, loyal.
297
00:25:48,799 --> 00:25:55,347
There's a type they were looking for
in my day, and I fit it perfectly.
298
00:25:57,975 --> 00:26:00,227
Separated early from the nest.
299
00:26:02,771 --> 00:26:04,147
Boarding school.
300
00:26:06,233 --> 00:26:08,443
Early independence of spirit.
301
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:14,074
But looking for institutional embrace.
302
00:26:15,534 --> 00:26:21,248
I can see my own life still
as a succession of embraces and escapes.
303
00:26:29,715 --> 00:26:34,052
I joined one intelligence
service, went sour on it.
304
00:26:34,761 --> 00:26:37,264
{\an8}Moved to a second, went sour on it.
305
00:26:38,265 --> 00:26:44,021
I was disenchanted by the Cold War itself,
which was easy to be
306
00:26:44,021 --> 00:26:48,233
when you saw all those Nazis
wandering around in West Germany.
307
00:26:48,233 --> 00:26:51,028
And indeed in East Germany.
308
00:26:51,028 --> 00:26:52,905
What had we really fought for?
309
00:26:52,905 --> 00:26:55,282
As if the war had never happened?
310
00:26:56,366 --> 00:26:57,534
It felt like that.
311
00:26:57,534 --> 00:27:04,625
The power of enforced forgetting
was extraordinary.
312
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:11,715
I was posted under diplomatic cover
to West Germany.
313
00:27:13,133 --> 00:27:15,969
And it was one of the great good fortunes
of my life,
314
00:27:15,969 --> 00:27:18,889
because I was there
for the erection of the Berlin Wall.
315
00:27:21,642 --> 00:27:26,730
The standoff between East and West
was exemplified in Berlin.
316
00:27:26,730 --> 00:27:29,983
Tension was constant.
It affected everybody.
317
00:27:31,693 --> 00:27:34,988
The attention
of an anxious world is focused on Berlin.
318
00:27:34,988 --> 00:27:38,367
The last great exodus of refugees
from the East is processed
319
00:27:38,367 --> 00:27:41,703
as the Communist German regime
moves to close their border.
320
00:27:41,703 --> 00:27:44,915
The flow of those seeking asylum here
on the fringe of freedom
321
00:27:44,915 --> 00:27:46,959
has reached 1,500 a day.
322
00:27:49,253 --> 00:27:53,632
I went to Berlin
and saw for myself what was going on.
323
00:27:55,676 --> 00:28:01,014
The big dramas occurred
before the wall was built.
324
00:28:01,014 --> 00:28:06,770
West German firemen were spreading
their trampolines below the building.
325
00:28:08,063 --> 00:28:10,691
People were jumping into these things.
326
00:28:18,407 --> 00:28:22,035
Sights which were heart-breaking.
327
00:28:36,091 --> 00:28:39,803
{\an8}What was your emotional response
to seeing this thing?
328
00:28:39,803 --> 00:28:46,685
A mixture of anger, disgust and empathy.
329
00:28:46,685 --> 00:28:50,022
It was for me a milestone.
330
00:28:50,022 --> 00:28:54,109
It was the impetus that produced
The Spy Who Came in from the Cold.
331
00:28:55,903 --> 00:28:58,739
A crucible
for your understanding of the world?
332
00:29:01,658 --> 00:29:05,621
More like confirmation
of my understanding of the world.
333
00:29:09,541 --> 00:29:15,923
This was the most obscene symbol
of the insanity of the human struggle.
334
00:29:23,430 --> 00:29:28,519
I felt that on both sides, East and West,
335
00:29:28,519 --> 00:29:32,940
were inventing the enemy that they needed.
336
00:29:34,858 --> 00:29:39,863
The seamless transition from anti-Nazism
to anti-Communism.
337
00:29:46,828 --> 00:29:48,956
I came back from Berlin.
338
00:29:48,956 --> 00:29:52,835
I knew that I wanted to write
a strong novel about the thing.
339
00:29:52,835 --> 00:29:55,546
It was summer.
I think I worked mainly in the garden.
340
00:29:56,296 --> 00:29:57,798
The kids were around.
341
00:30:00,050 --> 00:30:02,886
I would maybe start
at four or five in the morning.
342
00:30:04,012 --> 00:30:06,807
And I had this rush of blood and anger.
343
00:30:07,307 --> 00:30:12,563
Found, as it were,
a fable that served my purposes
344
00:30:12,563 --> 00:30:14,481
and that was
The Spy Who Came in from the Cold.
345
00:30:15,023 --> 00:30:16,900
What the hell do you think spies are?
346
00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:18,861
Moral philosophers
measuring everything they do
347
00:30:18,861 --> 00:30:21,071
against the word of God or Karl Marx?
348
00:30:21,071 --> 00:30:25,117
They're not. They're just a bunch
of seedy, squalid bastards like me.
349
00:30:25,117 --> 00:30:28,203
Little men, drunkards, queers,
henpecked husbands,
350
00:30:28,203 --> 00:30:32,457
civil servants playing Cowboys and Indians
to brighten their rotten little lives.
351
00:30:32,457 --> 00:30:35,419
Do you think they sit like monks in a cell
balancing right against wrong?
352
00:30:35,419 --> 00:30:39,339
The author who is
the biggest sensation right now,
353
00:30:39,339 --> 00:30:42,050
his real name is David Cornwell,
354
00:30:42,050 --> 00:30:45,345
but he's much better known to us
as John le Carré.
355
00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:48,724
How many did
The Spy Who Came in from the Cold sell?
356
00:30:49,308 --> 00:30:53,562
I think in all editions, book club,
paperback, all over the world,
357
00:30:53,562 --> 00:30:57,316
they say somewhere around
twelve, fifteen million.
358
00:31:05,157 --> 00:31:10,746
{\an8}I take it that the success
of Spy was a surprise.
359
00:31:13,540 --> 00:31:17,961
I think it was no surprise to me
in the sense that I felt
360
00:31:17,961 --> 00:31:20,881
that when I'd finished it,
I'd written something
361
00:31:20,881 --> 00:31:23,800
that was profoundly expressive
of my own feelings,
362
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,802
and that it might have legs.
363
00:31:30,224 --> 00:31:34,561
The early rumbles from agent and publisher
suggested it really did have legs.
364
00:31:34,561 --> 00:31:37,564
You have to remember the context
in which it was published.
365
00:31:37,564 --> 00:31:40,067
We were sated with James Bond
at that time.
366
00:31:40,817 --> 00:31:44,154
{\an8}I admire your luck, Mister...
367
00:31:44,154 --> 00:31:47,741
Bond. James Bond.
368
00:31:47,741 --> 00:31:51,703
The reality that had been
offered by the news
369
00:31:51,703 --> 00:31:54,915
and by all the events
that were happening around us
370
00:31:54,915 --> 00:31:58,669
was spies as a shabby army
of lonely deciders.
371
00:31:58,669 --> 00:32:01,713
I happened to deliver the antidote.
372
00:32:01,713 --> 00:32:07,469
What was wrong about it, and I lived
with that problem still to this day,
373
00:32:07,469 --> 00:32:11,306
was that it painted the secret services
as so bloody brilliant.
374
00:32:11,306 --> 00:32:17,354
Whereas, by that time,
we were a crippled organization
375
00:32:17,354 --> 00:32:21,483
that could very well have been scrapped
to begin again.
376
00:32:27,573 --> 00:32:30,784
{\an8}"If your mission in life
is to obtain traitors,
377
00:32:30,784 --> 00:32:33,245
to win them over to your cause,
378
00:32:33,912 --> 00:32:37,749
{\an8}you can hardly complain
when one of your own
379
00:32:37,749 --> 00:32:41,128
{\an8}turns out to have been obtained
by somebody else.
380
00:32:42,045 --> 00:32:45,257
When I came to write
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy,
381
00:32:45,257 --> 00:32:49,845
it was Kim Philby's murky lamp
that lit my path."
382
00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:55,601
"MI6's brilliant former head
of counterintelligence.
383
00:32:56,268 --> 00:33:01,940
Once tipped to become chief of the
service, who was also a Russian spy."
384
00:33:08,822 --> 00:33:12,910
Halfway through my tenure
in West Germany,
385
00:33:12,910 --> 00:33:15,579
Philby's defection was announced.
386
00:33:18,582 --> 00:33:25,214
His disappearance from Beirut
and his appearance on the Moscow stage.
387
00:33:27,382 --> 00:33:32,095
That was shocking to the ethic
of the secret services at that time.
388
00:33:53,283 --> 00:33:55,077
Someone is following.
389
00:34:02,918 --> 00:34:08,257
The question is whether MI5,
MI6 wanted him to go.
390
00:34:09,550 --> 00:34:14,346
Nobody wanted that exposure.
You have an extraordinary problem.
391
00:34:14,847 --> 00:34:19,935
Very substantial former spy
coming up for trial.
392
00:34:19,935 --> 00:34:24,565
It would do great national damage
and achieve very little.
393
00:34:29,945 --> 00:34:34,116
In sober reflection,
the powers that be said, "Thank God."
394
00:34:36,451 --> 00:34:39,621
"Thank God"?
So, they let him escape?
395
00:34:40,496 --> 00:34:41,748
Yeah.
396
00:34:55,721 --> 00:34:58,515
Thank you, comrade.
397
00:35:04,438 --> 00:35:08,150
Philby's defection
went straight to the heart
398
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:10,527
of the establishment of the day.
399
00:35:13,947 --> 00:35:15,949
He was a Westminster boy.
400
00:35:17,201 --> 00:35:20,078
Part of the inner circle
of English society.
401
00:35:29,505 --> 00:35:33,091
People kind of overlooked,
on those grounds,
402
00:35:33,091 --> 00:35:37,054
the rather evident past that Philby had.
403
00:35:41,767 --> 00:35:43,727
It would not have been difficult
to establish
404
00:35:43,727 --> 00:35:47,147
that he had early associations
with Communist people.
405
00:35:47,147 --> 00:35:49,858
{\an8}He'd married a Communist woman in Vienna.
406
00:35:51,902 --> 00:35:57,282
Those things could be swept aside
because he's... he's one of us.
407
00:35:57,282 --> 00:36:00,035
So, if you'd really gone
into Philby's background,
408
00:36:00,035 --> 00:36:02,162
you would have said this chap is...
409
00:36:02,162 --> 00:36:04,915
He's a bit sniffy. We don't want that.
410
00:36:04,915 --> 00:36:07,584
But quite the contrary,
he was Mister Charm,
411
00:36:08,418 --> 00:36:10,671
and he loved to deceive.
412
00:36:17,261 --> 00:36:22,266
{\an8}"Enter now, Nicholas Elliott,
Philby's most loyal friend, confidant,
413
00:36:22,266 --> 00:36:27,312
devoted brother-in-arms in war and peace.
Child of Eton.
414
00:36:27,312 --> 00:36:32,901
Son of its former headmaster,
adventurer, alpinist and dupe."
415
00:36:34,820 --> 00:36:39,491
"Among the many extraordinary things
that Elliott had done in his life,
416
00:36:40,492 --> 00:36:45,747
and undoubtedly the most painful,
was to sit face to face in Beirut
417
00:36:45,747 --> 00:36:50,419
with his close friend, colleague
and mentor, Kim Philby,
418
00:36:50,419 --> 00:36:54,840
and hear him admit that
he had been a Soviet spy
419
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,468
for all the years
that they had known each other."
420
00:37:07,186 --> 00:37:13,358
Nick Elliott told me that when he went out
to interview Philby in Beirut
421
00:37:13,358 --> 00:37:17,112
and to obtain from Philby the confession.
422
00:37:17,821 --> 00:37:22,159
He said that really,
when he wasn't playing a double game,
423
00:37:22,951 --> 00:37:25,495
that he was extremely lonely.
424
00:37:25,495 --> 00:37:28,207
He found life had gone flat for him,
425
00:37:28,207 --> 00:37:32,127
so the addiction to betrayal
was essential to him.
426
00:37:33,587 --> 00:37:38,133
And he betrayed everybody, really,
from childhood onward.
427
00:37:39,301 --> 00:37:42,846
{\an8}There's an awful lot
of misuse of the word "double agent."
428
00:37:42,846 --> 00:37:47,309
{\an8}Philby is often described in the press
as a double agent.
429
00:37:47,309 --> 00:37:49,895
In point of fact,
Philby was a straightforward,
430
00:37:49,895 --> 00:37:53,023
high-level, disreputable traitor.
431
00:37:53,023 --> 00:37:54,441
What's the difference, exactly?
432
00:37:54,441 --> 00:37:57,194
Well, I mean, he was a straightforward spy
for the Russians.
433
00:37:57,194 --> 00:37:59,905
If he'd been a double agent,
he'd have been a spy for the Russians.
434
00:37:59,905 --> 00:38:02,032
But we'd have been playing back
against the Russians.
435
00:38:03,951 --> 00:38:07,871
I knew Elliott pretty well.
And he was this tall figure.
436
00:38:08,747 --> 00:38:12,668
The hollowed-out body, waistcoats, spectacles.
437
00:38:13,627 --> 00:38:17,381
An Etonian voice,
the son of an Etonian headmaster,
438
00:38:17,381 --> 00:38:21,718
long line of Etonians behind him,
very aristocratic.
439
00:38:21,718 --> 00:38:23,637
Can you do his voice?
440
00:38:23,637 --> 00:38:28,016
Yes. I said to him, "Nick,
441
00:38:29,685 --> 00:38:34,022
when you went to see Kim,
what kind of sanctions did you have?"
442
00:38:34,022 --> 00:38:36,108
"Sanctions, old boy?
What do you mean by that?"
443
00:38:36,108 --> 00:38:37,818
"How could you threaten him?
444
00:38:37,818 --> 00:38:40,487
Could you have him sandbagged
and brought back to London?"
445
00:38:40,487 --> 00:38:43,282
"Oh," he said, "my dear chap,
nobody wanted him in London."
446
00:38:43,282 --> 00:38:46,368
I said, "Well, what could you
threaten him with?
447
00:38:46,368 --> 00:38:49,955
Nick, come on, come clean." He said,
448
00:38:49,955 --> 00:38:53,375
"I told him,
if he didn't come clean,
449
00:38:53,375 --> 00:38:57,087
there wouldn't be a legation,
an embassy,
450
00:38:57,087 --> 00:39:00,132
a business, or a club
in the whole of the Middle East
451
00:39:00,132 --> 00:39:02,176
who'd have a first damn thing
to do with him."
452
00:39:02,176 --> 00:39:04,136
So, I said,
"Well, that must have frightened him."
453
00:39:04,136 --> 00:39:06,013
"It did."
454
00:39:07,264 --> 00:39:09,474
He played the English bloody fool,
455
00:39:09,474 --> 00:39:13,270
whether he was one,
as many maintain, I don't know.
456
00:39:14,980 --> 00:39:18,275
You do have that line
in what you wrote.
457
00:39:18,859 --> 00:39:22,362
{\an8}"Philby was adept at deceiving others.
458
00:39:22,362 --> 00:39:26,074
{\an8}Elliott was equally adept
at deceiving himself."
459
00:39:26,909 --> 00:39:28,202
{\an8}I'm glad I said that.
460
00:39:30,829 --> 00:39:33,081
It was always my argument
461
00:39:33,081 --> 00:39:37,628
that it was instinct rather than reason
that drove Philby to do what he did.
462
00:39:38,837 --> 00:39:44,843
That thrill of stepping into the street
knowing what you know and they don't.
463
00:39:44,843 --> 00:39:50,599
It's the joy of self-imposed schizophrenia
that the secret agent loves.
464
00:39:52,518 --> 00:39:55,187
"Self-imposed schizophrenia."
465
00:39:56,772 --> 00:39:59,441
The duality all the time.
466
00:39:59,441 --> 00:40:02,236
Of being the opposite
of your outward self.
467
00:40:02,903 --> 00:40:07,491
But isn't there some joy
that you are actually making policy?
468
00:40:09,535 --> 00:40:11,954
Yes, I think the joy is voluptuous.
469
00:40:15,082 --> 00:40:17,292
A sensual journey
470
00:40:17,292 --> 00:40:22,548
of constantly challenging your luck
and surviving.
471
00:40:25,050 --> 00:40:28,345
Making a real difference too, absolutely.
472
00:40:28,345 --> 00:40:32,891
To feel you're the hub of the universe
is wonderful for the vanity.
473
00:40:32,891 --> 00:40:39,523
To be passing that, that pure gold,
to the Soviet Union, to your masters.
474
00:40:40,357 --> 00:40:43,902
"Now, do you love me?
If I give you this, will you love me?"
475
00:40:45,529 --> 00:40:50,742
I can imagine that voluptuous instinct
very well.
476
00:40:50,742 --> 00:40:53,370
Not in myself, but in him.
477
00:40:55,163 --> 00:40:57,708
Mister le Carré, you've described
Kim Philby as,
478
00:40:57,708 --> 00:41:01,753
"The avenger who destroyed the citadel
from within."
479
00:41:01,753 --> 00:41:05,048
Well, I think he's one of those strange
people who was born into privilege
480
00:41:05,048 --> 00:41:08,719
and, in some way, resented the advantages
with which he was born.
481
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,348
A person who, on the one hand,
felt that he was better than society
482
00:41:13,348 --> 00:41:17,311
and, on the other hand, couldn't forgive
society for putting him in that position.
483
00:41:17,311 --> 00:41:19,479
He was very much at war with himself,
I think.
484
00:41:27,279 --> 00:41:33,535
When I finally went to Moscow in 1988,
485
00:41:34,828 --> 00:41:39,917
I was at a party given
by the Union of Soviet Writers.
486
00:41:42,711 --> 00:41:45,547
There was a big man
called Genrikh Borovik.
487
00:41:46,673 --> 00:41:50,010
Borovik came up to me and said,
488
00:41:50,010 --> 00:41:56,892
"David, I would like you
to meet a very good friend of mine.
489
00:41:56,892 --> 00:41:58,810
Keen admirer from your books.
490
00:42:00,812 --> 00:42:02,022
Kim Philby."
491
00:42:02,022 --> 00:42:06,068
I replied,
sick to the heart as I felt,
492
00:42:07,236 --> 00:42:11,114
that I'm soon to have dinner
with our ambassador,
493
00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:17,746
and I can't see myself having dinner
with the Queen's representative one night,
494
00:42:17,746 --> 00:42:20,541
and dinner with the Queen's traitor
the next.
495
00:42:20,541 --> 00:42:24,461
I just thought
there is such a thing as evil.
496
00:42:27,422 --> 00:42:33,220
Somebody who had blindly served Stalin
for so long.
497
00:42:33,762 --> 00:42:38,350
{\an8}How he could go on serving
such a person, such a cause,
498
00:42:39,184 --> 00:42:41,770
{\an8}as Soviet communism, was beyond me.
499
00:42:42,604 --> 00:42:45,190
He knew better than anyone
what he was doing.
500
00:42:49,111 --> 00:42:53,615
It was the addiction, it was the fun
of betrayal that got to him.
501
00:42:53,615 --> 00:42:57,661
It was the feeling that he was playing
both ends against the middle.
502
00:42:57,661 --> 00:43:02,165
He was the center of the earth.
He was playing the world's game.
503
00:43:02,165 --> 00:43:05,085
It had precious little to do,
in the end, with ideology.
504
00:43:05,085 --> 00:43:06,712
It may have begun as ideology.
505
00:43:06,712 --> 00:43:09,339
After that, it became an addiction,
the betrayal.
506
00:43:09,965 --> 00:43:12,926
If you'd given him your cat
to look after for a couple of weeks,
507
00:43:12,926 --> 00:43:15,012
he'd have betrayed the cat somehow.
508
00:43:23,854 --> 00:43:27,983
I had some inner relationship with Philby.
509
00:43:30,027 --> 00:43:31,987
The temptation, somehow,
510
00:43:34,698 --> 00:43:38,160
to turn your back on everything
you've been taught and picked up
511
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:39,703
and go your own route.
512
00:43:40,746 --> 00:43:43,624
I can understand
how that happened to Philby.
513
00:43:44,666 --> 00:43:47,878
And I've felt that thank God
I never went in that direction.
514
00:43:47,878 --> 00:43:52,549
But there came a point in my life where
I seemed to be offered the crossroads.
515
00:43:52,549 --> 00:43:55,552
I could have become a really bad guy.
516
00:43:55,552 --> 00:43:59,056
And mercifully, I found a home
for my larceny.
517
00:44:00,974 --> 00:44:04,520
{\an8}A writer is slightly
out of tune. He is different.
518
00:44:05,103 --> 00:44:09,399
{\an8}His methods of creation
are the methods of a lonely person
519
00:44:09,399 --> 00:44:12,319
who is borrowing, abstracting
experiences here and there,
520
00:44:12,319 --> 00:44:15,948
and putting them together
and trying to make a parcel, if you like,
521
00:44:15,948 --> 00:44:17,908
which you can then offer to the public.
522
00:44:17,908 --> 00:44:19,826
In that sense, he's an illusionist.
523
00:44:19,826 --> 00:44:22,371
And if people are constantly trying
to look up his sleeve,
524
00:44:22,371 --> 00:44:24,748
then he's going to spoil his trick.
525
00:44:27,125 --> 00:44:32,172
For me, writing is a journey
of self-discovery every time.
526
00:44:32,172 --> 00:44:35,926
How characters behave,
how they emerge, who they are,
527
00:44:35,926 --> 00:44:37,386
what appetites they have,
528
00:44:37,386 --> 00:44:40,848
they deliver themselves on the blank page
529
00:44:40,848 --> 00:44:43,475
and they tell me a little bit
about who I am.
530
00:44:46,144 --> 00:44:49,022
{\an8}In writing about George Smiley, of course,
531
00:44:49,022 --> 00:44:52,192
I'm writing about the ideal father
I never had.
532
00:44:55,779 --> 00:44:58,365
These are attempts at self-knowledge.
533
00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:03,245
Little glimpses along
the way of who one really is.
534
00:45:03,245 --> 00:45:05,330
I have never submitted to analysis.
535
00:45:05,330 --> 00:45:10,210
I feel if I knew any secrets about myself,
I'd deprive myself of writing.
536
00:45:15,632 --> 00:45:18,427
What did you learn about yourself
from Bill Haydon?
537
00:45:20,846 --> 00:45:24,516
Well, that was something
I guess I already knew.
538
00:45:24,516 --> 00:45:26,977
It was something I knew of Philby, too.
539
00:45:27,519 --> 00:45:31,398
And obviously Haydon is
to some extent modelled on Philby.
540
00:45:31,398 --> 00:45:34,401
An instinct that is latent in me,
541
00:45:34,401 --> 00:45:38,030
which I have never to my knowledge
deployed, used, fallen for,
542
00:45:38,030 --> 00:45:43,619
it's to be king of the world,
as Haydon thought he was.
543
00:45:43,619 --> 00:45:49,541
There was a time when the very pleasure
of being in the secret world
544
00:45:49,541 --> 00:45:52,419
close to what was going on,
what was really going on,
545
00:45:52,419 --> 00:45:54,922
{\an8}filled me with a sense of exultation.
546
00:45:56,924 --> 00:46:01,678
This is, in the Faustian sense, what
the world contains at its inmost point.
547
00:46:17,945 --> 00:46:21,365
"Was die Welt im Innersten zusammenhält",
is the line.
548
00:46:30,290 --> 00:46:34,378
Then there's that despairing line
in The Secret Pilgrim,
549
00:46:34,378 --> 00:46:36,797
"Knowing that the inmost room..."
550
00:46:37,881 --> 00:46:39,716
"...doesn't contain anything." Yes.
551
00:46:39,716 --> 00:46:43,136
Somehow, we believe
that there is an inmost room
552
00:46:43,136 --> 00:46:45,848
where policy is being conceived.
553
00:46:45,848 --> 00:46:48,600
I think it's being played
completely ad hoc,
554
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,186
from day to day, from hour to hour.
555
00:46:51,186 --> 00:46:52,771
History is chaos!
556
00:46:52,771 --> 00:46:58,861
History is chaos, and therefore
to imagine, as I might have done
557
00:46:58,861 --> 00:47:01,613
in my perpetual innocence,
558
00:47:02,364 --> 00:47:08,745
that there was some great secret
to the nature of human behavior.
559
00:47:08,745 --> 00:47:09,830
There is none.
560
00:47:17,713 --> 00:47:22,759
{\an8}"'Spying is eternal,'
Smiley announced simply.
561
00:47:25,804 --> 00:47:31,351
'There's no career on Earth more cockeyed
than the one you've picked.
562
00:47:34,521 --> 00:47:39,276
{\an8}You'll be at your most postable
while you're least experienced.
563
00:47:41,195 --> 00:47:45,199
And by the time you've learned the ropes,
no one will be able to send you anywhere
564
00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:48,202
without a trade description
round your necks.
565
00:47:53,999 --> 00:47:59,463
Old athletes know they've played their
best games when they're in their prime.
566
00:48:02,883 --> 00:48:05,969
Spies in their prime are on the shelf.
567
00:48:10,599 --> 00:48:13,644
And then, at a certain age,
568
00:48:15,896 --> 00:48:17,856
you want the answer.'
569
00:48:21,401 --> 00:48:25,155
'You want the rolled-up parchment
in the inmost room
570
00:48:26,532 --> 00:48:30,244
that tells you who runs your lives
and why.
571
00:48:39,419 --> 00:48:41,672
The trouble is, that by then,
572
00:48:41,672 --> 00:48:44,466
you're the very people who know best...
573
00:48:46,885 --> 00:48:49,930
...that the inmost room is bare.'"
574
00:48:59,940 --> 00:49:04,528
When I read it,
I took it as more deeply existential.
575
00:49:05,445 --> 00:49:10,450
Is the inmost room ourselves?
Maybe there's nothing there?
576
00:49:13,370 --> 00:49:17,457
In my case that is true, yes.
I can't speak for everybody else.
577
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:27,384
I think we, all of us,
live partly in a clandestine situation
578
00:49:27,384 --> 00:49:32,556
in relation to our bosses, in relation
to our families, our wives, our children.
579
00:49:33,807 --> 00:49:36,810
We frequently affect attitudes
to which we subscribe,
580
00:49:36,810 --> 00:49:39,229
perhaps intellectually,
but not emotionally.
581
00:49:40,981 --> 00:49:43,358
We hardly know ourselves.
582
00:49:44,234 --> 00:49:46,820
The figure of the spy does seem to me
583
00:49:46,820 --> 00:49:50,866
to be almost infinitely capable
of exploitation,
584
00:49:50,866 --> 00:49:55,704
for purposes of articulating all sorts
of submerged things in our society.
585
00:50:05,797 --> 00:50:08,884
The experience
that I have reading le Carré is,
586
00:50:08,884 --> 00:50:12,971
"Am I in a world of fiction?
Am I in a world of fact?
587
00:50:12,971 --> 00:50:16,225
Am I in some strange blend
of the two?"
588
00:50:21,313 --> 00:50:25,442
I really don't think any artist,
whether he's a writer,
589
00:50:25,442 --> 00:50:28,070
a painter, or anybody else,
590
00:50:28,862 --> 00:50:32,950
I don't think he has to explain his work
beyond a certain point.
591
00:50:32,950 --> 00:50:37,079
If it's raised those questions in you,
you're already having a good time.
592
00:50:37,079 --> 00:50:39,831
I have tried, over these conversations,
593
00:50:39,831 --> 00:50:44,378
to talk about the process of abstraction
from real life.
594
00:50:44,378 --> 00:50:46,964
Now, I very consciously wrote a book,
595
00:50:47,923 --> 00:50:49,466
A Perfect Spy...
596
00:50:51,426 --> 00:50:57,140
{\an8}...which gave a parallel version, if you
like, of much that had happened to me.
597
00:50:58,058 --> 00:51:02,938
For Ronnie, read Rick,
for me, read Magnus.
598
00:51:04,022 --> 00:51:07,234
I cannot define for you
599
00:51:07,234 --> 00:51:13,282
where reality goes through
the secret door into fiction.
600
00:51:15,033 --> 00:51:19,997
I would much rather go back to the notion
that I painted of,
601
00:51:19,997 --> 00:51:23,959
"I live in that bubble,
and I import stuff."
602
00:51:35,304 --> 00:51:38,682
It is a kind of solitude in the sense that
603
00:51:39,391 --> 00:51:42,019
{\an8}you're not sharing your thoughts
with anyone.
604
00:51:44,021 --> 00:51:48,817
You're composing in secret
from the elements you see around you.
605
00:51:50,402 --> 00:51:56,200
A fictional entity which is rational,
which makes order out of chaos.
606
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:58,202
I think that's such a normal process.
607
00:51:58,202 --> 00:52:00,495
If I were a painter,
I'd be feeling the same way.
608
00:52:00,495 --> 00:52:02,497
I'd be taking the light, the window
609
00:52:02,497 --> 00:52:07,503
and I would try to make an image
of how I feel now.
610
00:52:09,421 --> 00:52:13,675
I was going to ask you how
you do feel now, but that seems silly.
611
00:52:13,675 --> 00:52:15,761
Errol, I feel very comfortable.
612
00:52:15,761 --> 00:52:20,807
I enjoy very much talking about things
I haven't talked about before.
613
00:52:20,807 --> 00:52:26,271
I saw this prospect, at my great age,
as something definitive.
614
00:52:26,271 --> 00:52:30,192
I knew that I was not going to lie.
I wasn't going to fabricate.
615
00:52:30,192 --> 00:52:33,111
I'm not even interested in self-defense,
616
00:52:33,111 --> 00:52:36,406
because I really don't know
what the accusation is in the air.
617
00:52:40,619 --> 00:52:44,289
"Sir Magnus, you have in the past
betrayed me,
618
00:52:45,207 --> 00:52:48,752
but more important,
you have betrayed yourself.
619
00:52:48,752 --> 00:52:52,881
Even when you are telling the truth,
you lie.
620
00:52:52,881 --> 00:52:57,219
You have loyalty and you have affection.
621
00:52:57,219 --> 00:53:00,180
- But to what? To whom?"
- To what? To whom?
622
00:53:00,764 --> 00:53:02,349
I don't know.
623
00:53:02,349 --> 00:53:04,309
One day, maybe you will tell me.
624
00:53:06,019 --> 00:53:12,234
What I am saying, Sir Magnus,
you are a perfect spy.
625
00:53:21,493 --> 00:53:25,622
Characters don't actually work
until they've got a bit of you in them.
626
00:53:27,583 --> 00:53:29,418
They're just paper men.
627
00:53:30,878 --> 00:53:34,673
I voice my characters.
I read them to myself.
628
00:53:36,049 --> 00:53:38,552
That's terribly important, how they speak.
629
00:53:38,552 --> 00:53:43,182
After that, they kind of tell you who they
are, how they dress, how they move.
630
00:53:55,277 --> 00:54:00,699
That's the emergence of character
as you write, page after page.
631
00:54:03,744 --> 00:54:07,039
{\an8}Gradually, this fellow emerges
and is yours.
632
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:12,461
My natural instinct
when I meet people
633
00:54:12,461 --> 00:54:15,506
is to consider the possibilities
of their characters.
634
00:54:15,506 --> 00:54:18,675
I begin to invest them with things
they probably don't possess.
635
00:54:18,675 --> 00:54:23,138
Curiously, in the end product, those
features may not be there anymore.
636
00:54:23,847 --> 00:54:26,225
But that's the beginning of the story.
637
00:54:28,769 --> 00:54:31,855
And then I discuss,
what do these people want?
638
00:54:32,856 --> 00:54:38,403
And out of discerning contrary appetites,
you get the essence of conflict.
639
00:54:38,987 --> 00:54:43,158
You've written, "The cat sat
on the mat is not a story,
640
00:54:43,158 --> 00:54:46,495
but the cat sat on the dog's mat is."
641
00:54:46,495 --> 00:54:47,579
That's right.
642
00:54:47,579 --> 00:54:50,290
And then I have
my le Carré version.
643
00:54:51,375 --> 00:54:56,046
"The cat betrayed the dog
by sitting on his mat."
644
00:54:56,046 --> 00:54:58,298
I think the cat was a double.
645
00:55:16,775 --> 00:55:20,070
{\an8}Why is betrayal
an important concept to you?
646
00:55:22,489 --> 00:55:25,492
{\an8}Well, it has
a long family background.
647
00:55:28,912 --> 00:55:33,417
Reality did not exist in my childhood,
performance did.
648
00:55:37,129 --> 00:55:42,467
I felt, observing life,
that much of what people said overtly
649
00:55:42,467 --> 00:55:44,636
was not what they thought inwardly.
650
00:55:44,636 --> 00:55:48,849
You have to remember that in each
of the secret services
651
00:55:48,849 --> 00:55:51,685
where I was ineffective but employed.
652
00:55:54,146 --> 00:55:55,898
{\an8}They were the decades of betrayal.
653
00:55:55,898 --> 00:55:58,734
{\an8}You just wondered
who was gonna pop out next.
654
00:56:02,821 --> 00:56:09,828
We received, at MI5, very strong
representations from the Americans
655
00:56:09,828 --> 00:56:13,373
to clean up our act and get rid
of the communists in our midst.
656
00:56:13,373 --> 00:56:16,543
A man appeared
657
00:56:17,044 --> 00:56:20,130
and he had some kind of authority,
which he made clear to you,
658
00:56:20,130 --> 00:56:22,716
and he would say,
"Come around, have a drink."
659
00:56:23,884 --> 00:56:27,930
And he had a most extraordinary wall
with live birds behind it.
660
00:56:28,639 --> 00:56:30,933
They silently flitted about.
661
00:56:35,646 --> 00:56:37,940
I think he was a fool, I may add.
662
00:56:37,940 --> 00:56:41,693
Must have been some kind of analyst, psychologist.
663
00:56:41,693 --> 00:56:46,073
He would question you in a sort of
fatuous schoolmasterly...
664
00:56:46,073 --> 00:56:48,033
"Getting on all right with your wife,
are you?"
665
00:56:48,033 --> 00:56:52,079
We were all being examined
as potential communist spies.
666
00:56:54,331 --> 00:56:59,795
The comedy in my case was
that I had, for MI5,
667
00:56:59,795 --> 00:57:04,633
entered the communist community
at my university at Oxford.
668
00:57:07,970 --> 00:57:11,598
I was picked up and wooed,
sat in the Soviet embassy,
669
00:57:11,598 --> 00:57:14,810
watched the Battleship Potemkin
about six times,
670
00:57:14,810 --> 00:57:17,229
was fed with vodka and then dropped.
671
00:57:17,855 --> 00:57:19,231
It's a good movie.
672
00:57:19,231 --> 00:57:22,484
It's a good movie, except
that it has no happy ending.
673
00:57:34,371 --> 00:57:39,501
Wait a second. Is the desire to
be a double agent from the very beginning?
674
00:57:40,085 --> 00:57:41,253
Yes.
675
00:57:41,253 --> 00:57:44,840
It was an extremely exciting thought
at the time.
676
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,092
It's not just an agent,
it's a double a--
677
00:57:47,092 --> 00:57:49,928
It happens all the time
with every security service
678
00:57:49,928 --> 00:57:52,556
and every offensive intelligence service.
679
00:57:52,556 --> 00:57:57,060
That you put people up
alongside the recruiter,
680
00:57:57,060 --> 00:58:01,690
hope he will recruit, and then
you own the person he has recruited.
681
00:58:01,690 --> 00:58:06,445
That's, as the Germans would say, normal.
682
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:13,076
Out of that came
the very painful relationship
683
00:58:13,076 --> 00:58:18,957
{\an8}with the secret head of
the communist group at Oxford at the time,
684
00:58:18,957 --> 00:58:22,794
{\an8}a most innocent man, Stanley Mitchell.
685
00:58:25,380 --> 00:58:29,343
{\an8}We were in the same college,
he was reading Russian and German.
686
00:58:30,552 --> 00:58:32,846
He was of Russian-Jewish extraction.
687
00:58:35,098 --> 00:58:38,227
And we went on a walking holiday together
in Dorset.
688
00:58:38,227 --> 00:58:41,480
He had all the names of students
689
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,651
who were members
of the Communist Party at that time.
690
00:58:46,860 --> 00:58:51,323
My job for MI5 was to identify
these people.
691
00:58:52,908 --> 00:58:57,788
And of course, it's horrific.
I was betraying Stanley.
692
00:59:02,042 --> 00:59:07,381
Although, I squirm and I'm horrified
by my behavior now,
693
00:59:07,381 --> 00:59:10,175
I still think it had to be done.
694
00:59:10,175 --> 00:59:14,972
Stanley, in later years,
made the very simple deduction
695
00:59:14,972 --> 00:59:16,890
that I was that person in his life.
696
00:59:16,890 --> 00:59:21,270
It upset him terribly.
"It was you, Judas. You swine.
697
00:59:22,980 --> 00:59:27,484
How could anybody do it?
How could anybody be as foul as you?"
698
00:59:29,403 --> 00:59:30,946
And your defense?
699
00:59:31,947 --> 00:59:35,701
Was, "Well, sorry, Stanley, but you
belong to a revolutionary movement
700
00:59:35,701 --> 00:59:38,954
which was determined
to destabilize our country.
701
00:59:38,954 --> 00:59:44,168
We were, at that time, technically at war
with the Soviet Union.
702
00:59:44,168 --> 00:59:45,919
You were on the wrong side."
703
00:59:49,298 --> 00:59:51,925
Can you be so sure
that you're on the right side
704
00:59:51,925 --> 00:59:55,762
- as opposed to the wrong side?
- Of course not. No. Of course not.
705
01:00:06,732 --> 01:00:11,236
In A Perfect Spy, why the need
to have the son kill himself?
706
01:00:14,865 --> 01:00:18,911
{\an8}Firstly, because he knew that
as a double agent, he was rumbled.
707
01:00:22,247 --> 01:00:25,125
He could have cut a deal, I suppose,
in the real world.
708
01:00:25,751 --> 01:00:28,337
I think he also found life insupportable.
709
01:00:29,922 --> 01:00:34,051
And he was ashamed
in the eyes of his child.
710
01:00:36,011 --> 01:00:38,555
Did Ronnie have a sense of shame?
711
01:00:39,348 --> 01:00:40,682
I really don't believe so.
712
01:00:40,682 --> 01:00:44,603
I've heard him do it,
kind of through the keyhole,
713
01:00:45,562 --> 01:00:47,689
to the first of my stepmothers.
714
01:00:49,066 --> 01:00:52,402
Howling he would never do something again.
715
01:00:52,903 --> 01:00:54,446
I don't know that he did shame,
716
01:00:54,446 --> 01:00:57,282
I don't know
how he could live with himself.
717
01:00:57,282 --> 01:01:01,036
Living with his fantasies,
718
01:01:01,036 --> 01:01:04,998
which didn't necessarily begin
as criminal plans
719
01:01:04,998 --> 01:01:08,293
but it was like writing a novel,
720
01:01:08,293 --> 01:01:12,506
in the sense that he would
hear the right line,
721
01:01:12,506 --> 01:01:16,176
or spot in the crowd some clue.
722
01:01:16,718 --> 01:01:19,429
And that would be the beginning of a scam.
723
01:01:25,644 --> 01:01:30,440
"I am in the city of Exeter,
walking across a patch of wasteland.
724
01:01:32,109 --> 01:01:35,195
I'm holding the hand of my mother, Olive.
725
01:01:35,904 --> 01:01:39,992
As she was wearing gloves,
there is no fleshly contact
726
01:01:39,992 --> 01:01:44,371
and indeed, so far as I recall,
there never was any.
727
01:01:47,332 --> 01:01:51,879
At the far side of the wasteland is
a grim, flat-fronted building
728
01:01:51,879 --> 01:01:54,965
with barred windows
and no light inside them."
729
01:02:01,138 --> 01:02:03,640
"And in one of these barred windows,
730
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:08,770
looking exactly like a Monopoly convict,
stands my father.
731
01:02:09,521 --> 01:02:12,733
I wave at Ronnie high up in the wall
732
01:02:12,733 --> 01:02:15,569
and Ronnie waves the way he always waved."
733
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:17,946
Daddy, Daddy!
734
01:02:20,282 --> 01:02:22,826
"On Olive's hand,
I march back to the car,
735
01:02:22,826 --> 01:02:24,786
feeling thoroughly pleased with myself.
736
01:02:27,247 --> 01:02:31,460
Not every small boy, after all,
has his mother to himself
737
01:02:31,460 --> 01:02:33,754
and keeps his father in a cage."
738
01:02:40,093 --> 01:02:43,388
"But according to my father,
none of this happened.
739
01:02:43,388 --> 01:02:46,266
The notion that I might have seen him
in any of his prisons
740
01:02:46,266 --> 01:02:48,477
offended him very much."
741
01:02:50,771 --> 01:02:54,149
Sheer invention
from start to finish, son.
742
01:02:54,816 --> 01:02:58,153
Anyone who knows the inside of Exeter jail
743
01:02:58,153 --> 01:03:03,033
knows perfectly well
you can't see the road from the cells.
744
01:03:07,704 --> 01:03:09,206
"And I believe him.
745
01:03:10,749 --> 01:03:12,709
I'm wrong and he was right.
746
01:03:12,709 --> 01:03:15,879
He was never at that window
and I never waved to him.
747
01:03:16,463 --> 01:03:18,924
But what's the truth? What's memory?
748
01:03:19,633 --> 01:03:21,260
We should find another name
749
01:03:21,260 --> 01:03:25,055
for the way we see past events
that are still alive in us."
750
01:03:32,062 --> 01:03:36,483
I don't think confronting you
is the right way to put it.
751
01:03:37,609 --> 01:03:41,280
But there was something
that you said that I found curious
752
01:03:42,406 --> 01:03:45,492
and worth further examination.
753
01:03:46,410 --> 01:03:50,581
Maybe this is an interrogation.
Maybe I am self-deceived.
754
01:03:52,374 --> 01:03:56,170
I can't imagine that as an interrogator
or an interviewer,
755
01:03:56,170 --> 01:03:59,089
you aren't also in part
looking for yourself.
756
01:04:00,007 --> 01:04:03,343
I don't think that we really can
penetrate people very much,
757
01:04:04,970 --> 01:04:09,057
but we can form imaginings about them
and then we relate to them.
758
01:04:16,815 --> 01:04:22,529
You hired private detectives
to investigate your father.
759
01:04:23,780 --> 01:04:28,535
One fat, one thin.
I asked my solicitor,
760
01:04:28,535 --> 01:04:29,995
"How can I get hold of these people?"
761
01:04:29,995 --> 01:04:32,664
He said, "Well, don't tell them
I told you,
762
01:04:32,664 --> 01:04:35,584
but these are about the most ruthless men
I know."
763
01:04:35,584 --> 01:04:39,213
{\an8}I hired them,
at an absurdly large sum of money.
764
01:04:42,299 --> 01:04:44,676
Really, they came on very little.
765
01:04:51,683 --> 01:04:58,482
{\an8}A much more reliable source for Ronnie's
first criminal case and imprisonment
766
01:04:58,482 --> 01:05:00,817
{\an8}is the local press of the day.
767
01:05:04,947 --> 01:05:09,159
He got, I think, a four-year sentence
for fraud at a very young age,
768
01:05:09,159 --> 01:05:11,912
but then he was taken out in mid-sentence
769
01:05:11,912 --> 01:05:15,374
and given a second sentence
with hard labor.
770
01:05:15,374 --> 01:05:17,751
I once said, "How bad was it?"
771
01:05:17,751 --> 01:05:20,003
He said, "Well, the Gypsies
were the worst."
772
01:05:20,003 --> 01:05:22,089
And he's talking about handicuffs.
773
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:29,471
{\an8}Ronnie had a big chest. I think he was
capable of being very physical himself.
774
01:05:34,226 --> 01:05:41,149
{\an8}I was in Chicago promoting
a British week, riding on London buses,
775
01:05:41,900 --> 01:05:45,445
pretending to make phone calls
from telephone kiosks.
776
01:05:52,119 --> 01:05:55,455
The British consul-general
then handed me a telegram
777
01:05:55,455 --> 01:05:59,251
{\an8}he'd received from the embassy in Jakarta.
778
01:06:03,297 --> 01:06:08,594
Saying Ronnie was in prison, it would
take so much money to get him out.
779
01:06:08,594 --> 01:06:10,929
Would I agree to pay it?
780
01:06:14,808 --> 01:06:17,936
It wasn't an enormous sum,
but it was quite painful all the same,
781
01:06:17,936 --> 01:06:20,314
and that got him out.
782
01:06:20,314 --> 01:06:23,650
And we never talked about it
until I did much later and he said,
783
01:06:23,650 --> 01:06:26,236
"Oh, it was nothing, just currency stuff."
784
01:06:26,236 --> 01:06:29,531
We now know that he was engaged
in arms dealing
785
01:06:29,531 --> 01:06:35,078
at a time when Indonesia was
just recovering from a huge genocide.
786
01:06:40,292 --> 01:06:44,213
But then the last time, to my knowledge,
that he was in prison,
787
01:06:44,213 --> 01:06:48,967
he was in the Bezirksgefängnis,
the district prison in Zurich
788
01:06:48,967 --> 01:06:50,928
for swindling hotels.
789
01:06:50,928 --> 01:06:53,847
He was allowed a reverse charge call
to me.
790
01:06:53,847 --> 01:06:58,060
He said, "I can't do any more jail, son.
Get me out."
791
01:06:59,186 --> 01:07:00,687
And that was money again.
792
01:07:00,687 --> 01:07:04,942
I mean, it wasn't big money,
but it was extremely painful to me.
793
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:12,407
I still have nightmare visions of this
hugely active physical man, caged.
794
01:07:14,409 --> 01:07:17,246
In the aggregate,
I don't know how much prison he did.
795
01:07:18,455 --> 01:07:21,500
Probably altogether no more
than six or seven years.
796
01:07:22,543 --> 01:07:26,171
But what effect it had on him,
I can't imagine.
797
01:07:36,557 --> 01:07:38,809
By the way, Ronnie sued you!
798
01:07:39,977 --> 01:07:45,566
Yes, he did. I gave an interview
to London Weekend Television.
799
01:07:47,067 --> 01:07:50,988
I omitted to say
that I owed everything to him.
800
01:07:52,865 --> 01:07:55,284
I didn't want to give Ronnie the credit.
801
01:07:57,035 --> 01:08:00,205
Why should I find a line
that said I owed it all to my father?
802
01:08:00,205 --> 01:08:06,503
But the reality probably is,
in many ways, that I do.
803
01:08:18,390 --> 01:08:20,767
I've never felt I belonged anywhere,
804
01:08:20,767 --> 01:08:23,228
I've been very lucky in that respect.
805
01:08:23,228 --> 01:08:25,229
I've had a very rich life.
806
01:08:25,939 --> 01:08:29,484
And I've seen a lot of institutions
and a lot of things.
807
01:08:30,569 --> 01:08:33,947
I've led a lot of lives, in an odd way.
808
01:08:33,947 --> 01:08:36,491
I don't feel that I belong to any of them.
809
01:08:37,117 --> 01:08:41,705
What I am left with is
a sense of being on my own.
810
01:08:47,085 --> 01:08:49,755
Was your father tortured by the fact
811
01:08:49,755 --> 01:08:54,009
that you became rich and successful
and he did not?
812
01:08:56,303 --> 01:08:57,513
I don't know.
813
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:05,562
The principal effect
of my success upon him
814
01:09:05,562 --> 01:09:08,273
was to create in him
a sense of entitlement.
815
01:09:08,273 --> 01:09:12,778
He bought huge quantities of my books,
usually on credit, signed them,
816
01:09:12,778 --> 01:09:15,113
"From the author's father."
817
01:09:15,113 --> 01:09:17,115
Gave them around like confetti.
818
01:09:23,037 --> 01:09:29,795
I met the hard-edge, the real edge,
I suppose, when he summoned me to Vienna.
819
01:09:33,590 --> 01:09:34,841
"Son,
820
01:09:35,884 --> 01:09:38,386
I've worked out
what your education cost me.
821
01:09:38,386 --> 01:09:41,807
And I have some idea of the kind of money
you're making."
822
01:09:43,225 --> 01:09:45,560
And then he went on to make a pitch.
823
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:49,898
"Son, all I've ever wanted in my life
is pigs and cattle,
824
01:09:49,898 --> 01:09:52,943
and then a little piece of Dorset.
Pigs and cattle.
825
01:09:53,484 --> 01:09:57,739
Somewhere nice to live, nice lady
to live with, and I'll be all right.
826
01:09:58,699 --> 01:10:01,618
So, what I need is..."
And he named an enormous sum of money.
827
01:10:01,618 --> 01:10:05,414
"Father, I can't do that.
It makes no sense to me.
828
01:10:05,998 --> 01:10:10,377
What I will do, if that's really what
you want, with your pigs and cattle,
829
01:10:10,377 --> 01:10:12,963
is I will buy a house and own it
and put you into it.
830
01:10:12,963 --> 01:10:15,966
I will make an allowance to you
for running your farm.
831
01:10:15,966 --> 01:10:18,177
I don't trust you for one second."
832
01:10:18,177 --> 01:10:22,806
He actually had appointed me a mark.
He was going to con me.
833
01:10:23,348 --> 01:10:27,269
And I'd join the club of people
on the roadside.
834
01:10:27,269 --> 01:10:28,770
And I wasn't going to let that happen.
835
01:10:30,230 --> 01:10:32,983
We were in Sachers, in Vienna,
836
01:10:32,983 --> 01:10:36,528
the most refined, excellent restaurant
in those days.
837
01:10:37,237 --> 01:10:41,033
He let out the most awful feral howl.
838
01:10:41,825 --> 01:10:46,496
And shouted, "You're paying
your own father to sit on his arse!"
839
01:10:46,496 --> 01:10:49,917
In a voice that could have been heard
across the street.
840
01:10:49,917 --> 01:10:55,130
And then he emitted this howl, howl,
half rose to his feet,
841
01:10:55,130 --> 01:11:00,177
and I put my arm
round his very ample back,
842
01:11:00,177 --> 01:11:06,808
and we hobbled to the front door
of... the hotel,
843
01:11:08,227 --> 01:11:13,398
down some steps, then there was a cab and
he looked up at me in supplicant's face,
844
01:11:13,398 --> 01:11:15,776
"How am I going to pay for this cab?"
845
01:11:16,985 --> 01:11:19,404
And I gave the driver some money.
846
01:11:20,072 --> 01:11:21,698
And off he went.
847
01:11:21,698 --> 01:11:26,286
I could've accepted his pitch,
at least given him some money.
848
01:11:27,329 --> 01:11:32,167
But I was so angry that it was a pain
to pay for the cab.
849
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:36,046
But it's a feeling of being betrayed.
850
01:11:36,672 --> 01:11:41,552
Yes, it is. There was quite a bit of that
in it. "How can you do this to me?"
851
01:11:48,058 --> 01:11:50,811
Come on, old friend. It's bedtime.
852
01:11:52,563 --> 01:11:55,399
George? You won.
853
01:11:58,902 --> 01:11:59,987
Did I?
854
01:12:02,114 --> 01:12:03,198
Yes.
855
01:12:04,825 --> 01:12:06,410
Yes, I suppose I did.
856
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:16,587
Did you love Ronnie?
857
01:12:17,421 --> 01:12:19,131
I really don't know what love is.
858
01:12:19,131 --> 01:12:21,633
I must have loved him as a child.
859
01:12:22,134 --> 01:12:25,971
But then, the consequences of his life
became clear to me.
860
01:12:26,805 --> 01:12:31,226
Later in life, when he wanted everything
I had, like my money.
861
01:12:33,187 --> 01:12:36,857
I was able to pull out
the necessary stops.
862
01:12:36,857 --> 01:12:39,318
I could do affection with him.
863
01:12:39,318 --> 01:12:43,530
I could do indifference
and, secretly, I could do hatred.
864
01:12:43,530 --> 01:12:45,532
Those things exist, actually,
865
01:12:45,532 --> 01:12:48,160
in any father-son relationship
at different times.
866
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:52,331
They're like seasons. I had to muster
hatred in order to escape him.
867
01:13:02,841 --> 01:13:04,885
{\an8}They had three funerals for him.
868
01:13:06,678 --> 01:13:08,263
{\an8}I went to the first one.
869
01:13:09,389 --> 01:13:12,476
{\an8}I was urged to make a speech
and declined.
870
01:13:12,476 --> 01:13:15,395
And then there was another funeral
871
01:13:15,395 --> 01:13:18,232
and then, God help us,
there was a memorial service.
872
01:13:18,232 --> 01:13:20,275
But I didn't go to either of those.
873
01:13:22,778 --> 01:13:26,907
I wanted to believe that
my feelings were dead.
874
01:13:27,908 --> 01:13:29,451
And I've never seen his grave.
875
01:13:35,457 --> 01:13:37,835
But you paid for the funerals.
876
01:13:38,919 --> 01:13:40,420
I'm sure I did, yes.
877
01:13:40,420 --> 01:13:42,798
I paid for everybody's funerals.
878
01:13:42,798 --> 01:13:45,551
I paid for my mother's funeral.
I mean, I paid for them.
879
01:13:45,551 --> 01:13:49,263
What the hell does that mean?
I'm well off, I paid.
880
01:13:51,723 --> 01:13:55,727
The most loyal of his servants,
881
01:13:55,727 --> 01:13:59,439
who had done jail for him,
was a man called Arthur Lowe.
882
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:03,819
All these people have monosyllables
as surnames.
883
01:14:03,819 --> 01:14:05,696
There was a Mister Bent,
believe it or not.
884
01:14:07,781 --> 01:14:12,619
I went to Jermyn Street
immediately upon hearing of his death
885
01:14:12,619 --> 01:14:16,957
to see whether there was anything there
to be redeemed and to be present.
886
01:14:17,916 --> 01:14:23,422
Arthur said, "Let's all go and have a bit
of a blowout. Do us good.
887
01:14:23,422 --> 01:14:26,216
Let's go to Jules Bar across the road."
888
01:14:28,093 --> 01:14:30,804
So, about eight of us went,
and Arthur presided.
889
01:14:30,804 --> 01:14:34,516
We had champagne and oysters,
whatever the hell we wanted.
890
01:14:34,516 --> 01:14:36,935
We thought we'd cheer ourselves up.
Or Arthur did.
891
01:14:36,935 --> 01:14:42,399
Very graciously, he paid.
And it was his party, it was fine.
892
01:14:43,066 --> 01:14:47,321
{\an8}It's my party, George.
I'll get the bill when I'm ready.
893
01:14:51,074 --> 01:14:53,827
Two days later, I got the receipt
in the post.
894
01:14:53,827 --> 01:14:57,164
"Will I please adjust
as soon as possible?"
895
01:14:57,164 --> 01:14:59,249
Ronnie never had money.
896
01:14:59,249 --> 01:15:05,422
He made killings, but as soon as he made
a killing, on the sound principle,
897
01:15:05,422 --> 01:15:11,053
that expenditure always exceeds income...
it was gone again.
898
01:15:14,556 --> 01:15:18,143
He was some kind of crisis addict.
899
01:15:18,143 --> 01:15:21,313
I think he had to be living on the edge
all the time.
900
01:15:23,065 --> 01:15:25,567
And I think he certainly persuaded himself
901
01:15:25,567 --> 01:15:29,571
that this was an honorable and valuable
contribution to the community
902
01:15:29,571 --> 01:15:32,991
and they would be happy
and he would be mountainously rich.
903
01:15:32,991 --> 01:15:36,495
And mind you, he was within a whisker
of that happening.
904
01:15:40,499 --> 01:15:43,794
I'm not making a case for him,
I'm just trying to tell you
905
01:15:43,794 --> 01:15:49,466
how close he was
to being a successful man.
906
01:15:50,050 --> 01:15:53,178
And how absolutely absurd
were his fantasies.
907
01:16:04,815 --> 01:16:06,984
But the world runs on fantasy.
908
01:16:06,984 --> 01:16:12,030
I agree. The membrane between
what he does or failed to do,
909
01:16:12,030 --> 01:16:16,034
and enormously wealthy and successful
and honored people
910
01:16:16,034 --> 01:16:18,579
that membrane was very, very feeble.
911
01:16:25,002 --> 01:16:28,463
"Ronnie is dead
and I am revisiting Vienna
912
01:16:29,673 --> 01:16:31,550
in order to breathe the city air
913
01:16:31,550 --> 01:16:35,304
while I write him into
the semi-autobiographical novel
914
01:16:35,304 --> 01:16:37,472
I am at last free to ponder.
915
01:16:42,144 --> 01:16:43,687
Not the Sacher again.
916
01:16:44,229 --> 01:16:46,440
I have a dread that the waiters
will remember
917
01:16:46,440 --> 01:16:51,486
Ronnie crashing down onto the table
and me half carrying him out.
918
01:16:53,405 --> 01:16:56,074
My plane into Schwechat is delayed
919
01:16:56,074 --> 01:16:59,828
and the reception desk of the hotel
that I have chosen at random
920
01:16:59,828 --> 01:17:02,873
is in the charge
of an elderly night porter.
921
01:17:06,376 --> 01:17:10,047
He looks on silently
as I fill in the registration form.
922
01:17:10,964 --> 01:17:16,303
Then he speaks in soft,
venerable Viennese German.
923
01:17:18,347 --> 01:17:21,558
'Your father was a great man,' he says.
924
01:17:21,558 --> 01:17:24,019
'You treated him disgracefully.'"
925
01:17:28,941 --> 01:17:32,736
I keep hearing again
and again and again
926
01:17:32,736 --> 01:17:36,949
that I have not pressed you
hard enough about betrayal.
927
01:17:36,949 --> 01:17:41,995
I have failed in my interviewer's
or interrogator's job.
928
01:17:41,995 --> 01:17:48,126
Well, I feel that you got the last drop
out of the sponge on that subject.
929
01:17:48,126 --> 01:17:53,507
But I'll answer any question you wish me
to answer, as truthfully as I can.
930
01:17:53,507 --> 01:17:56,218
Do they want you
to break down and sob?
931
01:17:56,218 --> 01:18:00,138
And weep? Yeah. I can do that.
932
01:18:00,138 --> 01:18:02,182
Like I can do bird noises.
933
01:18:03,559 --> 01:18:08,438
I'm not going to talk about my sex life,
any more, I trust, than you would.
934
01:18:08,438 --> 01:18:10,899
It seems to be
an intensely private matter.
935
01:18:10,899 --> 01:18:14,945
My love life has been a very difficult
passage, as you would imagine,
936
01:18:14,945 --> 01:18:19,366
but it's resolved itself wonderfully,
and that's enough on that subject.
937
01:18:21,451 --> 01:18:24,705
So, what do people want?
938
01:18:25,581 --> 01:18:31,503
They want to think that I am duplicitous,
939
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:34,798
false-tongued,
940
01:18:34,798 --> 01:18:39,011
that I use my charm as a wreckers' light
941
01:18:40,053 --> 01:18:42,806
and probably that I torture my children.
942
01:18:43,557 --> 01:18:46,351
They want to unmask me as something,
943
01:18:46,351 --> 01:18:50,230
but I need to know
what is behind the mask first.
944
01:18:51,398 --> 01:18:54,193
You have all I am, as far as I know.
945
01:18:59,615 --> 01:19:04,286
{\an8}In your memoir, you say none
of it's true, it's as I imagined it.
946
01:19:07,289 --> 01:19:12,836
Inside the bubble,
I am abstracting from non-fiction
947
01:19:12,836 --> 01:19:14,338
and fictionalizing it.
948
01:19:15,297 --> 01:19:20,302
I want to take tidy stories
out of the perceived reality around me.
949
01:19:23,639 --> 01:19:28,101
{\an8}But I didn't do any of that derring-do
stuff that is reported in my books.
950
01:19:30,229 --> 01:19:35,025
But why tell people that a story
is false right at the very beginning?
951
01:19:36,360 --> 01:19:39,446
If you and I had witnessed
the same car accident,
952
01:19:40,489 --> 01:19:43,283
each would have his version
of what had happened.
953
01:19:44,243 --> 01:19:45,911
So, what is truth?
954
01:19:47,329 --> 01:19:52,125
Objective truth is perceived
by some absent third party,
955
01:19:53,085 --> 01:19:56,338
but otherwise, truth is subjective.
956
01:19:58,674 --> 01:20:03,095
Who is that third party? God?
957
01:20:03,095 --> 01:20:07,558
There is some kind of factual record
which we'll never get our hands on.
958
01:20:11,562 --> 01:20:15,899
My business has been
to try to make credible fables
959
01:20:15,899 --> 01:20:21,280
out of the worlds that I visited
or visited me.
960
01:20:32,708 --> 01:20:35,752
The journey for me has been
one of the imagination.
961
01:20:37,004 --> 01:20:39,715
The imaginative refuge from reality.
962
01:20:42,551 --> 01:20:45,429
The recreation of chaos.
963
01:20:47,055 --> 01:20:51,435
Not in an orderly way, but in
a comprehensible, individualized way
964
01:20:52,895 --> 01:20:59,902
that makes people feel not à la
James Bond,
965
01:20:59,902 --> 01:21:01,403
"I wish this was me."
966
01:21:02,196 --> 01:21:07,242
But more kind of,
"Jesus, I hope this isn't me."
967
01:21:17,252 --> 01:21:20,464
"When I was a young
and carefree spy,
968
01:21:20,464 --> 01:21:25,677
it was only natural that I should believe
that the nation's hottest secrets
969
01:21:25,677 --> 01:21:29,431
were housed in a chipped, green Chubbsafe
970
01:21:29,431 --> 01:21:34,144
that was tucked away at the end
of a labyrinth of dingy corridors...
971
01:21:35,729 --> 01:21:38,649
on the top floor of 54 Broadway...
972
01:21:39,942 --> 01:21:44,738
...in the private office occupied
by the Chief of the Secret Service.
973
01:21:46,657 --> 01:21:50,869
{\an8}I had heard that there existed
documents so secret
974
01:21:50,869 --> 01:21:54,581
{\an8}that they were only ever touched
by the Chief himself.
975
01:21:57,918 --> 01:22:00,254
And now the sad day is upon us
976
01:22:00,254 --> 01:22:04,633
when the final curtain
will be run down on Broadway Buildings.
977
01:22:07,261 --> 01:22:10,013
Is the Chief's safe exempt?
978
01:22:10,013 --> 01:22:13,976
Will cranes, crowbars, and silent men
convey it bodily
979
01:22:13,976 --> 01:22:17,688
to the next stage
along its life's long journey?
980
01:22:19,940 --> 01:22:24,152
It is reluctantly ruled
that the safe will be opened."
981
01:22:26,238 --> 01:22:28,490
So, who's got the bloody key?
982
01:22:28,490 --> 01:22:30,701
"Not the reigning chief, apparently.
983
01:22:31,618 --> 01:22:34,621
He has made a point
of never venturing inside the safe.
984
01:22:36,164 --> 01:22:38,458
What you don't know, you can't reveal."
985
01:22:40,210 --> 01:22:41,545
Useless!
986
01:22:42,296 --> 01:22:44,047
Send for Burglar Bill.
987
01:22:45,299 --> 01:22:48,510
"The Service has picked
a few locks in its day,
988
01:22:48,510 --> 01:22:51,263
so it looks like time to pick another."
989
01:23:18,916 --> 01:23:20,709
"The lock yields."
990
01:23:22,711 --> 01:23:25,214
"The safe is empty. Bare.
991
01:23:25,964 --> 01:23:29,843
Innocent of even the most mundane secret."
992
01:23:30,677 --> 01:23:31,803
Wait!
993
01:23:32,679 --> 01:23:37,726
Is it a decoy safe
to protect an inner sanctum?
994
01:23:42,022 --> 01:23:45,108
"The safe is gently prized from the wall.
995
01:23:47,361 --> 01:23:49,905
The Chief peers behind it.
996
01:23:52,449 --> 01:23:57,996
And extracts a very thick,
very old pair of trousers,
997
01:23:59,289 --> 01:24:01,166
with a label attached to them.
998
01:24:01,834 --> 01:24:08,465
The typed inscription declares that these
are the trousers worn by Rudolf Hess...
999
01:24:10,551 --> 01:24:14,137
...Adolf Hitler's deputy
when he flew to Scotland
1000
01:24:14,137 --> 01:24:18,433
to negotiate a separate peace
with the Duke of Hamilton.
1001
01:24:19,309 --> 01:24:24,648
In the mistaken belief that
the Duke shared his fascist views."
1002
01:25:01,018 --> 01:25:04,813
"Beneath the inscription
runs a handwritten scrawl."
1003
01:25:09,318 --> 01:25:11,445
"Please analyze.
1004
01:25:12,529 --> 01:25:18,619
May give an idea of the state
of the German textile industry."
1005
01:25:30,255 --> 01:25:36,053
That was a story about
men from a diminished imperial power
1006
01:25:36,053 --> 01:25:39,556
looking into a false reflection
of themselves.
1007
01:25:39,556 --> 01:25:44,394
Still guarding a great nation,
still playing the world's game.
1008
01:25:45,646 --> 01:25:51,151
And in fact, they were
a tragically reduced crowd
1009
01:25:52,236 --> 01:25:54,321
driven by their own nostalgia.
1010
01:25:55,739 --> 01:25:57,991
And when you look in the mirror?
1011
01:25:59,618 --> 01:26:00,994
Now? Today?
1012
01:26:01,620 --> 01:26:05,874
I'm much more at ease
with myself now, in age.
1013
01:26:05,874 --> 01:26:10,921
More reconciled to who I was.
And who I was not.
1014
01:26:10,921 --> 01:26:13,715
So, I'm not too unhappy
when I look in the mirror,
1015
01:26:13,715 --> 01:26:16,009
unless I've got a dreadful hangover.
1016
01:26:16,844 --> 01:26:21,473
I look at you
as an exquisite poet of self-hatred.
1017
01:26:21,473 --> 01:26:23,100
Yeah, I would go with that.
1018
01:26:24,601 --> 01:26:30,899
I think that it's only in the last few
years that I feel I've found my freedom,
1019
01:26:30,899 --> 01:26:33,944
and I love being what I am best at.
1020
01:26:33,944 --> 01:26:38,407
Not just being a writer,
that's incidental, but writing.
1021
01:26:38,407 --> 01:26:42,578
Without the creative life,
I have very little identity.
1022
01:26:42,578 --> 01:26:45,914
I'm like an actor without a part.
1023
01:26:45,914 --> 01:26:51,879
With the work, I am as near as I get
to being a happy man.
1024
01:26:52,838 --> 01:26:54,798
And I love, I love writing.
1025
01:26:55,674 --> 01:26:57,342
So, I am that animal.
1026
01:26:58,260 --> 01:27:03,807
And I dare hardly use the claim,
but I'll make it here, I'm an artist.