1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,920 This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:06,280 and some strong language 3 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:08,440 I'm curious about how you think people perceive you. 4 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:13,360 As... As a danger, as a risk, as a potential risk to them, 5 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,320 to their safety, to their way of living. 6 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,520 Do you understand why society has so much anger towards you? 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,680 Yes, I do understand, but I don't think it's actually towards me. 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,520 I think it's towards Isis, but when they think of Isis, they think of me 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,520 because I've been put on the media so much, you know? 10 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,040 But they only did that because you chose to go to Isis. 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:34,920 But what was there to obsess over? 12 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,960 We went to Isis, that was it, it was over. 13 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,920 They just wanted to continue the story because it was a story. 14 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:41,680 It was the big story. 15 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,520 But you do accept that you did join a terrorist group? 16 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:46,040 Yes. 17 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,520 I did. 18 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,520 Three friends stride confidently through Gatwick Airport, 19 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,520 heading to war-torn Syria. 20 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,120 Hundreds and hundreds of Western Muslims 21 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,000 have been attracted to this death cult. 22 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,560 Shamima has become a lightning rod and a polarising figure. 23 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,120 I don't trust her. I think she's dangerous. 24 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,720 I think she's radicalised. 25 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:24,920 Was she trafficked? Was she groomed? 26 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:37,240 When you throw your lot in with the devil, don't expect the niceties 27 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,560 of what Western democracies and Western justice stand for. 28 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,200 They were children. They were manipulated. 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,440 We've probably let this child down at some point. 30 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,240 Could Shamima Begum have been prevented from reaching Isis? 31 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,520 There would have been a possibility, yes. 32 00:01:50,520 --> 00:01:52,680 They can't expect just to come back to the UK 33 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:54,280 and be welcomed with open arms. 34 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,800 I think she shouldn't come back. She's made her choice. 35 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,360 It's really complex. She's really complex. 36 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,040 She was radicalised here. 37 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,600 It's our mess and we should clear it up. 38 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,400 The runaway Isis bride has had her British citizenship revoked. 39 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,040 If you did know what I knew, you would have made 40 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,840 exactly the same decision. Of that, I have no doubt. 41 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:27,480 POLICE SIREN 42 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,120 I woke up early in the morning, maybe five, six o'clock, 43 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:40,760 because, like, our flight left at, like, 12:00, 44 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,680 so we just wanted to be there early. 45 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,160 Our bags were already somewhere else - like, hidden somewhere else. 46 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,520 I had to make an excuse as to why I was going, 47 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,520 so I was just like, "I have extra classes that I need to go to," 48 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,040 and my mum believed me. 49 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,360 I just stood there with her, you know, just being quiet and stuff. 50 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,440 And then I got on the bus and I said, "Bye," 51 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,040 and she was being really quiet. 52 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:05,920 It's not normal for her to be so quiet. 53 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:08,360 She was just staring at me and not saying anything, 54 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,680 and I just said bye to her and I got on the bus and I left. 55 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,520 And I feel really guilty, obviously, not giving her a better goodbye, 56 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,760 knowing that I would probably never see her again. 57 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,280 At the airport, there's a photo of you 58 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,640 walking through the Gatwick scanner. Yeah. 59 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:30,680 What's going through your head? 60 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,720 I felt like I was, like, not inside my body. 61 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,520 It felt like a dream. 62 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,640 That was one of the scariest moments of my life. 63 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,840 Just handing the passport over to the man 64 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,280 and him just, like, not even looking at it, 65 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,040 just gliding it past and handing it back to me and telling me to go. 66 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,760 Did you think you were ever coming back to Britain? 67 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,760 Really, at that time, I just was not thinking. 68 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,520 My mind was, like, completely blank. 69 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,120 But I guess, yes, I thought, this is the last time 70 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,280 I'm going to see the UK, you know? 71 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:04,760 Did that worry you? 72 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,760 I mean, in a way, I felt kind of relieved. 73 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,520 Can you take me back to 15-year-old Shamima 74 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,880 and life before Isis? 75 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,120 Whenever I describe, like, London to people here, I just always 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,880 talk about my friends because I feel like my friends 77 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:30,800 were a significant part of my life. 78 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,360 Kadiza and Amira I met when I was 11, 79 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,760 and they were the fun part. They were the happy memories. 80 00:04:41,280 --> 00:04:43,520 Amira was quite outspoken. 81 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,000 She was in different clubs, societies. 82 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,320 She was even on, like, posters and stuff around the school. 83 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:55,960 Kadiza, really tall, and she was quite beautiful, if I'm honest, 84 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,280 so she used to stand out in that sense. 85 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,040 Shamima was a ghost. 86 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,160 She was quiet. 87 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:09,440 I mean, I could hear a pin drop louder than her voice. 88 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,760 You know, she seemed like she was in her own bubble. 89 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,280 We were all different, but weirdly, we just fit together 90 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,240 like pieces of a puzzle, you know? 91 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,920 And then when we were 14, 15, you know, we became religious. 92 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,920 Was the Shamima before that not particularly religious, then? 93 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,280 Not at all. 94 00:05:31,280 --> 00:05:33,040 Like, not at all. 95 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:35,360 What was the change? 96 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,520 Sharmeena became religious after her mum died. 97 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,280 She was my closest friend. 98 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:45,400 She was someone that you can confide in and she'll listen to you. 99 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,440 I mean, the way she was talking about it, it was very persuasive, 100 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,000 but even if it wasn't persuasive, I just wanted to go along with what 101 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,600 my friend wanted, you know, so I could be accepted. 102 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,040 I didn't want to give them a reason to, like, you know, 103 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,040 exclude me from the group. 104 00:06:07,280 --> 00:06:09,280 I'm curious to know, like... 105 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,160 ..about your sense of identity at that time. 106 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,520 I didn't feel British or Bengali. 107 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,520 I didn't feel Bengali because I didn't want to be Bengali 108 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,120 and I didn't feel British because I feel like I wasn't able 109 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,360 to be British even though I wanted to be, if that makes sense. 110 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:33,280 You want to be accepted by society but I didn't feel like 111 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:37,360 I was accepted by society either, because of racism and other things. 112 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,040 Obviously, I just wanted to be a bit more free. 113 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,720 Being Bengali myself and being a brown girl from the same area, 114 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,520 I can understand where she's coming from in the sense that 115 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,040 she felt like culturally she was different, 116 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:52,920 she was Muslim on top of that, 117 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,280 she came from a disadvantaged background, 118 00:06:55,280 --> 00:07:00,800 so in society you are sort of seen as a black sheep. 119 00:07:04,280 --> 00:07:08,040 You know, it doesn't take a genius to just stand in an estate 120 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:10,520 in Tower Hamlets and look around you. 121 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:15,040 And you would have kind of grown up in kind of... 122 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,200 ..semi-poverty, like, situation. 123 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,040 It's ironic because it is set against the backdrop 124 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,760 of the City of London and the district of Canary Wharf. 125 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,520 It does become a very hostile, challenging environment 126 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:41,120 to grow up in. 127 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,040 It's really hard wanting to integrate into society 128 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:46,680 but your family holding you back 129 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:50,040 because their idea of being British is being loose and, like, immoral. 130 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,520 Cultural expectations on a young woman would have been, 131 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,280 yes, you're going to school now, but ultimately, 132 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,520 when you come of a certain age, you have to get married. 133 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:06,320 And then, basically, that's pretty much end of the line for you. 134 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,800 What was the Shamima like for your parents? 135 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,040 Just, like, depressed and quiet and obedient and just... 136 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,760 ..not content with my life, and in a way resentful to my family 137 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,280 for, like... Like, I felt oppressed. 138 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,040 But that's an exaggeration. 139 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,520 At the time, because I was just a teenager, I felt oppressed. 140 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,120 But, you know... 141 00:08:34,560 --> 00:08:38,040 The Sunni extremist group Isis has announced that it's establishing 142 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,360 an Islamic State, known as a caliphate, 143 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,520 made up of territory that it seized in Iraq and in Syria. 144 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,520 It's also proclaimed its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, 145 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,520 as the leader of all Muslims. 146 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,920 Iraqi government forces are still battling... 147 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,520 When did you first become aware of Isis? 148 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,120 When Sharmeena wanted to leave. 149 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,040 MEN CHANT 150 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:06,080 She sent me the news clip of the caliphate being announced. 151 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,800 She explained what it was and how we had an obligation to go 152 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,520 and, like, you won't be able to practise your religion properly 153 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:17,360 in the UK and, you know, like, the UK is racist and Islamophobic. 154 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,760 Why would you stay in a place that doesn't even want you? 155 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:22,800 You know, things like that. 156 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,440 I mean, when she first said it, it just sounded impossible. 157 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,760 I'm like, "We're only 15. We can't go. 158 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,280 "It's..." 159 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:35,040 And then she said, "No, other teenagers have already gone, 160 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,040 "so we can do it, too." 161 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,520 And what were your first impressions when she's saying this? 162 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,120 This girl is crazy. 163 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,120 This girl, she's crazy. 164 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,440 Really? She's lost her mind. She's not there any more. 165 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,280 And then she just... She was like, "OK, fine, 166 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,880 "I'll just leave by myself, then." And then she did it. 167 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,520 And then she started contacting us from within Isis 168 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,040 and describing, like, the situation and how great it was, 169 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,200 and it just... It made it more real and it made it more possible. 170 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,920 We just immediately started planning. 171 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,520 I mean, Sharmeena already did it, so she just told us 172 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,280 and there were obviously other people online telling us 173 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:20,920 and, like, advising us on what to do and what not to do. 174 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,840 What shifts someone from sympathiser to traveller? 175 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,920 It was that the travellers knew someone who had gone, 176 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,440 so the barrier to entry becomes lower 177 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,600 if you know someone who has travelled. 178 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,280 I think it's... 179 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:37,920 ..very reasonable to suggest that without Sharmeena, 180 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:39,600 Shamima does not go. 181 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,040 She's talking to her friend who's saying, "This is fantastic. 182 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,280 "Here's how you do it. I can arrange it for you. 183 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,200 "What are you waiting for?" 184 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:52,040 What did you think you were going to? 185 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,880 Like, an Islamic utopia? I don't know. 186 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:09,960 I'd only seen one small clip of an Isis propaganda video, 187 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:11,760 which was the Eid video. 188 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,440 Families in the parks together. 189 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,080 The men saying, you know, come here, come with your families, it's safe. 190 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,520 You know, you can live a good Islamic life here, 191 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,840 you can build a family, you can be happy, you can go to paradise. 192 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,520 For young people seeking a sort of solution to, you know, 193 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,080 problems that they're facing, that can suddenly become quite seductive. 194 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,560 Isis propaganda is well known for the ultraviolence, 195 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:42,040 but only about 8% or 9% of Isis' output was that ultraviolence. 196 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,760 Of course, that's the bit that captures the headlines 197 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,400 and therefore it's what we all know and associate with the movement, 198 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,920 but that's not the only part of the picture 199 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,040 that she will have been offered. 200 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,040 As the media would like to tell you, 201 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,040 things are pretty chaotic here, 202 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,360 but what I've come to see here is... 203 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:09,120 ..there's actually a really good medical service being provided here, 204 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:10,840 lots of hospitals. 205 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,520 This is where your sense of identity and belonging 206 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,120 have their natural home and this is where all these issues are resolved, 207 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,600 and Isis propaganda was quite good at saying 208 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:25,920 this is a United Nations of Islam. 209 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,880 Whether you're Arab or not Arab, 210 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,280 black or white, none of these things matter. 211 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:42,200 This is James Wright Foley, an American citizen of your country. 212 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,760 As a government, you have been at the forefront... 213 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,240 There was a lot of very critical things of Isis 214 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,040 in the news at the time 215 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,040 and you must have had some awareness of that. 216 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,520 How do you ignore that, or how do you perceive that this is still 217 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,840 the right thing to do with all the atrocities that they're committing? 218 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,840 To be honest, I did not know about these atrocities because I... 219 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,360 As a 15-year-old, I did not watch the news. 220 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:09,040 I got my news on social media and, like, the people who I spoke to 221 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,440 on social media were saying, "No, it's not true. It's an exaggeration. 222 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,640 "They're just trying to make Isis look bad because they hate Islam." 223 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,440 President Obama has tonight described the beheading 224 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,520 of the US journalist James Foley by an extremist from Islamic State 225 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,480 as an act of violence that shocks the conscience of the entire world. 226 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,520 The aid worker David Haines, held for 18 months in Syria 227 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,200 before being murdered, 228 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,080 has been called a British hero by the Prime Minister. 229 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,280 In the last hour, a video has been posted on the internet 230 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,600 which appears to show the British hostage Alan Henning being beheaded 231 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,120 by an Islamic State... 232 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,760 Do you get why people will find it hard to believe 233 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,280 that you just didn't watch Isis propaganda in London? 234 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,520 Yes, I understand why. Because they weren't 15 and they weren't me. 235 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,280 They don't know my situation. 236 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:56,520 You know, maybe more people have access to... 237 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,200 I mean, especially journalists, they don't understand 238 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:01,680 why I wouldn't know, because they're journalists, 239 00:14:01,680 --> 00:14:04,280 they search the deepest, darkest parts of the internet 240 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,760 for all these videos and they know every single detail about Isis, 241 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,680 so why would I not know? I mean, these videos were on Twitter 242 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,280 and YouTube, so it didn't... But they were constantly 243 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,760 being taken down and deleted, so it was very hard to watch these videos. 244 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,680 And the people who I was talking to who were in Isis 245 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,680 didn't send these videos... 246 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:25,280 ..either. 247 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,080 Shamima Begum has claimed 248 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,920 that she didn't see the sort of videos of people being executed 249 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,280 that were so widely publicised. Do you think that's true? 250 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,040 Don't believe it and no reasonable person would believe it. 251 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:41,920 However... 252 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,040 Erm, however much you're a teenager 253 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,520 watching At Home With The Kardashians, 254 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,040 doing loads of stuff on social media, 255 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,440 being physically welded to your mobile phone, 256 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,760 nobody, particularly three intelligent students 257 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:02,040 from East London, could have been absolutely oblivious 258 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,760 to the horrors that were being waged by Daesh 259 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,360 out in Syria and Iraq at that time. 260 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,280 It just doesn't wash. 261 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:13,040 The one time I did hear about an execution was from a kid in school. 262 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,800 He came and said that Isis had just burned a Jordanian pilot. 263 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:27,400 If I went online and I asked Sharmeena, 264 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,880 "Hey, is this true? Did they burn a pilot? 265 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,720 And she said, "No, it's a lie. 266 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,120 "What happened was, he was flying over Isis territory 267 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:36,600 "and Isis shot him down. 268 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,720 "The plane crashed and caught on fire and the video is of them 269 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,120 "dragging his body out of the flames." 270 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,680 And she just said the media just twisted it to make it look 271 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,480 like Isis had executed him. 272 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,280 And you believed her? 273 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,480 Yeah, because she was there. 274 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,200 And I wanted to be a part of the Islamic State. 275 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,840 And I just... It's like when you're in love and you just, 276 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,720 you don't want to see the person's faults, so you just, like, 277 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,360 push them to the back of your head 278 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,800 or you just completely deny that they are there. 279 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,080 You know, like I was in love with the idea of Isis, 280 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,880 so I just always made excuses for them. 281 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,480 NEWS REPORT: Police have issued an urgent appeal for help in finding 282 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,560 three schoolgirls from London who are believed to be trying to join 283 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:25,920 jihadists fighting in Syria. 284 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,320 The three teenagers flew to Turkey on Tuesday 285 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,000 without telling their families... 286 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,080 Police say three missing schoolgirls believed to be heading for Syria 287 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,760 will be in grave danger if they reach the country. 288 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,360 The teenagers, who are pupils at Bethnal Green Academy 289 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,720 in East London, were last seen boarding a flight to Turkey 290 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:42,280 on Tuesday. 291 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,560 When the girls leave, at the beginning 292 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:47,920 they are seen as victims. 293 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,120 Our unease and or fear as a society that Islamic State can reach out 294 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,520 from Syria into the minds of British schoolgirls at their homes 295 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:00,720 and lure them away, two of them aged 15, to a war zone, 296 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,640 that was frightening, frightening on a number of levels. 297 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,920 So these are the images of the girls that the police have released. 298 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,280 This is Salman calling from the East London Mosque. 299 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,240 Is this to do with the news that broke today? 300 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,200 It is. 301 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,240 So is that your sister? 302 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,200 One of the individuals? OK. 303 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,080 Is it possible for you to come and visit me at the mosque? 304 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:36,240 For the first time when I spoke to Shamima's sister on the phone, 305 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,520 she was... she was distraught. 306 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,520 She was crying. She was asking for prayers and so on. 307 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,400 And that, that really broke me. 308 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,160 Just so that you're comfortable, 309 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,280 we've already had conversations with the police, Inshallah, 310 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,160 and we're going to try and get them to do as much as they can 311 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,000 to bring them back here. 312 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:56,440 And if you need anything, if you need anything from us right... Eh? 313 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,440 We're going to make dua, we're going to make dua. 314 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,880 Don't cry. Don't cry. Please, don't cry. 315 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,160 We will do everything that we can, yeah? 316 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,360 OK? Don't cry. All right. 317 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,680 I'll let you go now. 318 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,240 I think there was almost... 319 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,800 there was almost a feeling of loss before we knew that we had lost. 320 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,520 And it was... it was really hard to stomach. 321 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:54,800 While the world was looking for us, we were just in the coach station. 322 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,280 Yeah. 323 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,440 We, like, changed our clothes. 324 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,560 We, like, dressed a bit more Islamically. 325 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,400 We contacted the smuggler who's going to help smuggle us 326 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,600 across the border, and we just waited for him. 327 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,640 Then other families started to come into the coach station 328 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,960 who also wanted to come to Isis, and we sat there with them. 329 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,280 He finally came in the middle of the night. 330 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:30,720 We had to buy food, obviously, so the smuggler took us outside 331 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:32,640 to exchange money and to buy food, 332 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,160 and then he would, like, escort us back to the coach station. 333 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:39,160 But he said we're not allowed to go outside by ourselves. 334 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,640 So, we didn't. 335 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,560 How long are you sat at this coach station for? 336 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,240 For, like, an entire day. 337 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,080 Just sitting and waiting and sitting and waiting. 338 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,920 We finally get on to the coach after, like, one day. 339 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:14,840 We were in the coach for maybe half a day 340 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,640 until we finally got to Gaziantep. 341 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,200 Go, go for him. To this car. 342 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:47,960 Put your bags. 343 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,560 We all get separated and then got into a bunch of cars, 344 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,520 kept switching cars. 345 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,320 Maybe seven times. 346 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,760 We were just doing everything he was telling us to do 347 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,600 because he knew everything and we didn't know anything. 348 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,040 So... 349 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,800 What's the message that you're trying to get to her 350 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:35,960 if she does see this? 351 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,680 We love her and she's our baby. 352 00:21:40,120 --> 00:21:43,000 If anybody is telling her that they're going to love her more 353 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:44,920 than us, they're wrong. No... 354 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,800 Nobody in this world can love her more than we do. 355 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,680 My little sister still sleeps in the same bed as my mum. 356 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,640 And, it's just... 357 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,800 Sorry, give me a second. 358 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:00,280 We just want her to come home. 359 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,480 If you watch this, baby, please come home. 360 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,080 Mum needs you more than anything in the world. 361 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,600 You're our baby. 362 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,160 We just want you home. We want you safe. 363 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,960 We crossed the border. 364 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,440 It was just a big field of nothing. 365 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,640 And there were, like, men wearing all black with their faces covered, 366 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,360 with guns, like, on their arms. 367 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:31,120 And it was just a bit surreal, you know, seeing it in person. 368 00:22:31,120 --> 00:22:32,840 What are you thinking? 369 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,480 I mean, at that time, it was kind of exciting. Really? 370 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,080 It was kind of exciting, yeah. 371 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,000 It was different. It was... 372 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,120 You weren't thinking, these men are dangerous? 373 00:22:42,120 --> 00:22:43,840 These are potential terrorists? 374 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,920 No, I thought they're here to protect me. 375 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:49,320 They have these guns to protect me and to protect women like me 376 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,040 and to protect the Muslims. 377 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,760 So I did not think in my wildest dreams that they would hurt me. 378 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,080 They take us into a room, they search us, they search our bags, 379 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,760 they take our passports, they take our phones. 380 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,480 And then they just tell us, "OK, wait here until the bus comes 381 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,440 "for you guys to go to Raqqa." 382 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,720 The woman in charge of the bus, 383 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,240 you know, she liked us, I guess, and she gave us a phone 384 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,680 and we just looked up... 385 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,920 It was the first time I really sat down 386 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,600 and watched all the Isis videos, and I was just in complete shock. 387 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,200 I was... I was just in shock. I don't know what to say. 388 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,200 What's going through your head when you're watching those? 389 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,680 I was just very disturbed, but I just couldn't say anything. 390 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,760 And I would look at my friends' faces to see if they're disturbed, 391 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,040 too, but their faces were too neutral for me to... 392 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,800 ..react. You know, how I would want to react. 393 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,920 I mean, in that moment, did you want to change your mind? 394 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,040 I just thought, there's no turning back. 395 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,360 I've already done it. I might as well see it through. 396 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,040 Did you ever think about changing your mind at any point 397 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:02,480 along the journey? 398 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:06,000 No, not along the journey. 399 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,640 Not from the Syrian border. Yeah. 400 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,040 Anybody who saw those gruesome videos 401 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:20,120 and wanted to remain in any way associated with that organisation, 402 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:22,840 engenders very little sympathy from most people. 403 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:28,000 This is joining up with people who are against everything 404 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,920 we stand for and want to kill us. 405 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,360 That's as bad as it gets. 406 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,440 NEWS REPORT: Three schoolgirls who disappeared from East London 407 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,960 last week have made their way into Syria. 408 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,200 It's feared that they're already under the control 409 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,320 of the extremist group, Islamic State. 410 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,320 I'll just explain... 411 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,200 I remember I read an article about her 412 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,760 and her other two friends that came. 413 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,240 I read on Daily Mail. 414 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,000 While you were in Raqqa? 415 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:22,400 They were all over the news. 416 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,960 Everyone knew about the arrival in Raqqa 417 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,840 and everyone was talking about it. 418 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,720 They just sort of obviously think that it's going to be really fun. 419 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:32,960 It's going to be some kind of adventure, 420 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,040 but it's really not running away to join the circus. 421 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,040 It's much more serious than that. 422 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:20,200 They could not believe in a million years that three teenagers 423 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,760 would leave their good, comfortable lives in the UK 424 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,960 and make it to Syria without being caught by the government. 425 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,320 Like, they could not believe it. 426 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:33,760 Now, when they got on that aeroplane, I don't know whether 427 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,200 they were terrorists or not, but the likelihood is 428 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,960 that by now, or very soon, they're going to be terrorists. 429 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,320 They brought us to the madafa at night-time 430 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,720 and we reunited with Sharmeena. 431 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:00,240 And I was just so happy to see her. 432 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,680 She was at the top of the staircase and we were at the bottom 433 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,440 of the staircase and we just, like, screamed our girly screams 434 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,560 and just, like, ran up to each other and hugged each other and cried. 435 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,720 And we were just so happy to see each other 436 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:12,760 and everyone was happy to see us. 437 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,680 You know, it was, it was a nice feeling, you know, 438 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,240 it felt like sisterhood. 439 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,440 All the negative feelings I had for her about lying to me 440 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,920 kind of just, like, washed away. 441 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,040 I was just so happy to see her safe and just there. 442 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,880 And we were just, like, all reunited and, like, together again. 443 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,040 It was happy. It was a happy event. 444 00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:39,920 NEWS REPORT: With the three schoolgirls beyond the reach 445 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,720 of their families and the police, this has now become a blame game 446 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,400 on how they could have made it to first Turkey and then Syria. 447 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,080 I wanted to try and find out if there's any scraps 448 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,280 of any information that would help us work out 449 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,520 if the girls were in contact with anybody in Syria. 450 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,240 In Shamima's house, we managed to discover a letter 451 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,960 from the Metropolitan Police - it was addressed to the parents 452 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,320 of these girls, requesting their permission to question 453 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,080 the girls officially around the disappearance of Sharmeena. 454 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,200 But it was clearly handed to the girls themselves 455 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,640 to give to their families. 456 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,880 And none of the families had seen it. 457 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,960 So, just so I'm getting this right, 458 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,480 before the three girls from Bethnal Green leave, 459 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,560 there's an active investigation into one of their friends 460 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,320 who's already gone to join Isis? That's correct, yes. 461 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,920 And nobody outside of the school, 462 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,200 in terms of families or anything like that, is aware of this? 463 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,160 No-one else is aware of this. 464 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:52,680 It was absolutely ludicrous. 465 00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,840 What the families were uncovering was that the police knew a lot more 466 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,160 about these girls' liaison 467 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,840 with people who were grooming them, who were radicalising them 468 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:07,200 and hadn't shared that information with the families. 469 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,920 Could I call the committee to order? 470 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:12,680 This is a session... 471 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:14,840 NEWS REPORT: The families are furious about a letter 472 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,600 from the police which might have alerted them the girls were about 473 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,600 to flee the country, a letter which they say they never saw. 474 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,600 This afternoon their families appeared before MPs complaining 475 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,120 that when a classmate ran off to Syria in December, 476 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,520 nobody told them. 477 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,280 Ms Begum, you are the older sister of Shamima. 478 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,000 Would it have been better if the police had handed the letter 479 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:37,960 directly to yourselves? 480 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,120 If we'd received the letter, we would have contacted 481 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,000 the police, found out where has this first girl gone, 482 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,440 if they gave us that information, 483 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,280 and I would have spoken to my sister. 484 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,080 Thank you very much. I'm sorry, we're running a tiny bit late. 485 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,680 We're most grateful. 486 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,080 The family want an apology because they think 487 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,960 things could have been handled much better. 488 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,160 What would you like to say about that, Commissioner? 489 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,640 Well, first of all, we're sorry if the family feel like that. 490 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,120 Clearly, it's a terrible situation they find themselves in. 491 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,520 I'm also sorry that the letter that we intended to get to them 492 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,800 didn't get through, because clearly that failed. 493 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,480 It was intended for them and it failed 494 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,200 and for that, of course, we're sorry. 495 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:11,880 I don't think we would go as far as saying, 496 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,200 therefore, that caused the girls to go. 497 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:18,520 Can you just tell me how you felt seeing that letter? 498 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,520 It made me and my friends feel like we need to 499 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,760 move faster, you know? 500 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,920 Before we get in trouble. 501 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,560 These three girls were not the first girls at that school 502 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,960 to be radicalised and, in fact, go to Syria. 503 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,320 So, one girl was already there. 504 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,280 Another girl was actually taken off a plane in an attempt to go there. 505 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,960 Presumably, though, if one girl goes, if the police are running 506 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,320 an investigation, it's probably not pertinent for them to share 507 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,440 information because it might interfere with their investigation. 508 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,720 Well, it depends on what your priorities are. 509 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,640 Is your priorities about gathering intelligence about these girls, 510 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,200 or is your priorities about safeguarding? 511 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,160 But I know that they were more interested 512 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,040 in gathering intelligence. 513 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:27,040 I was shocked to see how young the three girls were. 514 00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,200 And so, following those developments 515 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,760 is something that I did do. 516 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,840 And you were in the intelligence community at that time? 517 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,680 I was, yes. 518 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,920 Just want to talk to you a little bit about Mohammed Rasheed. 519 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,320 This is a man that moved Shamima Begum to Syria. 520 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:59,240 We've got a dossier of hundreds of pages of information 521 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,200 that was gathered by law enforcement and intelligence. 522 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,320 It shows that Mohammed Rasheed was gathering information 523 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,400 on everyone he helped. 524 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,400 I forget to give you the passport. 525 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,760 Copies of their ID documents, flight tickets, 526 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,880 passports, and that Rasheed was even entering into Syria 527 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,960 and documenting the location of Isis fighters. 528 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:27,120 It also shows a confession by him that he provided Shamima's 529 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,880 ID documents to Canadian intelligence. 530 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,640 Do you know if Mohammed Rasheed was a Canadian asset? 531 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,400 I do not. 532 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,840 But if you did know, you wouldn't be able to tell me, would you? 533 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,760 No, I would not be able to tell you. 534 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:53,400 A very senior serving intelligence officer at an agency 535 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,000 has confirmed to us that Mohammed Rasheed was indeed 536 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,080 providing information to the Canadians. 537 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,520 How do you feel about that, hearing that? 538 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,920 If indeed he was working on behalf of an intelligence agency, 539 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,880 the activities that he was conducting are essential 540 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,640 to intelligence collection. 541 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:18,360 And so, you know, that, I don't have issue with. 542 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,360 But there is a line that I feel was crossed in this operation 543 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,360 that has, you know, risked the lives of minors. 544 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,280 And that's a line that should really not be crossed. 545 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,800 And so, this would be an operation that has gone wrong. 546 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,640 Do you think there's a possibility that Shamima Begum 547 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,080 could have been prevented from reaching Isis? Yes, there is. 548 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,640 There would have been a possibility and a way to prevent that. 549 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,800 Once we started to get settled into the madafa and I saw 550 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:14,800 the situation and I saw the way women were talking about, you know, 551 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,320 Islam and, like, the things that Isis were doing 552 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,080 and how they think it's so great, it started to make me realise 553 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,080 that this is really real and it's kind of scary. 554 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,040 There was maybe 100 women and there were, like, 555 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,880 probably more than 100 children. 556 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,400 It was so packed and it wasn't clean. 557 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,600 It was so horrible. 558 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,680 I was so desperate to get out. 559 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,880 I couldn't, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. 560 00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:44,160 How do you get out of the madafa? 561 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,120 The only way is to get married. 562 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,800 There's no other way. You have to get married. 563 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,120 It almost felt like prostitution, really, in a way. 564 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,640 Like, I had to give my body away for my freedom. 565 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,040 Kadiza married a Somali-American man. 566 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,200 He worked in the hospital. 567 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,160 And Amira married an Australian. 568 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,800 I deliver this message to you, the people of Britain. 569 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,800 We will defeat you. 570 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,040 HE SHOUTS IN ARABIC 571 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,080 CHANTING 572 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,080 First you say, you know, "I want to get married." 573 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,720 And then they take down your information and they ask you 574 00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:31,640 what your preference is for what type of man you want to marry, 575 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,400 like age and nationality and language. 576 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,360 And, I mean, if you want to be more detailed, 577 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,000 you can even like say what you want them to look like. 578 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,800 And they would just, like... 579 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:45,080 ..get a list of the men, because the men have also 580 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,600 given their information, and just kind of, like, pair you up. 581 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,200 Well, my friend came to me. 582 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,680 Said there's a girl, she's interested in getting married. 583 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,480 Are you interested? 584 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,920 I said, "Yeah, I guess I'm interested. Yeah." 585 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:25,440 So we sat down. 586 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,920 We had a meeting, me and Shamima. 587 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,200 I was really shy. So he just, like, introduced himself 588 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:34,760 and then I introduced myself. 589 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,880 And then he was like, "You want to ask me questions?" 590 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,440 And I had, like, a list of questions I wanted to ask him. 591 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,840 She wanted to be allowed to visit her friends, 592 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,360 live close to the market. 593 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,280 Some things like this. 594 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,160 I said, "Yeah, no problem." 595 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,400 What did you want from him? 596 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,200 Like, as a husband? 597 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,600 Just... Just a partner in life. 598 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,240 To be my friend, to be my companion, to love, to love me. 599 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:09,200 I wanted to be loved because I felt like I was not loved. 600 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:12,320 So I just wanted someone, you know, to be there for me always 601 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:13,920 and to protect me and love me. 602 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,960 I just wanted a partner so I can get out and 603 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,040 find some rest with. 604 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:24,440 Spend my days in Syria, somebody to take a bit of care of me, you know. 605 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,920 I asked her if she knew how to cook. 606 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,000 She said, "Yes, I know how to cook." 607 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,560 I said, "OK." 608 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,840 Why was that important to you? 609 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,600 Because... Because I need to eat. 610 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,000 And I like nice food. 611 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,520 It was kind of exciting for me 612 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,960 because I'd never been in a relationship, so... 613 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,840 And I was... My entire life, I'm just surrounded by women. 614 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,120 So it was kind of a new concept, being with a man, for me. 615 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:51,680 It was a little scary as well because I was like, this is the man 616 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,560 I'm going to have to spend my life with, 617 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,360 for however long he's alive or however long I'm alive. 618 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,440 So it was just a little scary, yeah. 619 00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:05,240 We don't have such a thing as dating, going out, having... 620 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:06,640 having a meal together. 621 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,520 You get to know each other, like, a little bit. 622 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:10,960 If you click... 623 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,560 ..then you decide to take the step. 624 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,160 We want to get married, and that's it. We got married. 625 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,160 Then he took me to the park. 626 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,440 That was really weird, like, for the first time, 627 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,520 like, seeing the park, you know, the famous park 628 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,520 the Eid video was done in. 629 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,000 We sat down and we just started talking more. 630 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,720 I got more comfortable with him, obviously, when it was just 631 00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,440 more one-on-one time and it was more chill and stuff. 632 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,440 I want to say good things about him because there obviously 633 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,080 were good things about him. He was very protective of me. 634 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,880 He did take care of me, you know. 635 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,000 He was funny. He was really funny, I'm not going to lie. 636 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,720 He used to make me laugh. 637 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,160 There was this small, like, theme park I took her to once. 638 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,000 We had a nice time. 639 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:28,880 Ferris wheel, it was a very small ferris wheel, old. 640 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,960 Took a ride in it. 641 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,120 I was just happy to be out the madafa and just breathing fresh air 642 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,440 and being outside. 643 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:44,880 What are you learning about Shamima? 644 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,200 She is... She was very young when she came. 645 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,320 She didn't have a lot of life experiences, 646 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,280 not a lot of person to get to know. 647 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,400 Most of her life experience and what makes her who she is today 648 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,920 is the life experience that she got in the Islamic State. 649 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,160 But when I got to know her, she was basically an... 650 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:04,720 ..empty paper. 651 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,520 And what did you learn about your husband? 652 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,960 Because he'd been in Isis a lot longer than you, hadn't he? Yeah. 653 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:14,160 I don't want to say. 654 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:16,760 Because as I understand it, he was an Isis fighter. 655 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,880 Is that correct? I guess, yeah. 656 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,920 Before I was married to him, he was, yeah. 657 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,200 How did you feel knowing that he was a fighter? 658 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,160 I mean, I thought he was doing the right thing. 659 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,240 So I just thought, you know, he was fighting for his religion 660 00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:34,040 and for the State. 661 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,320 She had got a little bit of understanding 662 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,560 about how the marriage life works. 663 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,240 So that helped her out a lot. 664 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:47,080 What were those sort of values that she'd come to understand? 665 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,680 Er, respecting of the husband. 666 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,480 Trying to please the husband. 667 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,640 Obedience, of course. 668 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,520 Obedience to whom? To the husband. To the husband? Yes. 669 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,800 So you expected Shamima to be obedient to you? Yes. 670 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,520 What does obedience look like to a husband? 671 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:10,400 When I ask her to do something and she does it, it's not very hard. 672 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,960 What if she doesn't want to do it? 673 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,560 If she has a valid excuse, she doesn't have to do it. 674 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,760 It's an interesting way of phrasing it - a valid excuse, 675 00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,080 because that doesn't seem like there's much choice 676 00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,560 in that dynamic between the two of you. 677 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,120 No, there is not, actually. No. 678 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,040 There's no choice? No. 679 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,520 So what you want, she has to do? Basically, yeah. 680 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,000 It doesn't seem, from where I'm standing, 681 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,680 that that's a particularly healthy place for somebody to be. 682 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,160 It doesn't seem like two people are equal in that relationship. 683 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:47,760 We're not. 684 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,360 But she chose for that and she's happy with it. 685 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,240 She's very happy with it and I'm happy with it, so... 686 00:41:54,240 --> 00:41:57,520 When you say she's not equal to you in that relationship... 687 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,720 In terms of, I am the one in charge, basically, yeah. 688 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,200 So you're around 21 and Shamima would have been how old? 689 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,720 She was about 15 at that time. 690 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,120 So you decided to marry a child? 691 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:16,920 She was underage, yeah. 692 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,440 I wouldn't consider her a child now, but she was underage, yeah. 693 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,120 You might not agree with it, but that doesn't mean it's not right. 694 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,520 First I had to get a house. 695 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,320 I wasn't very successful. 696 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,280 So my friend, he was... he was nice enough 697 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,800 to give me a room in his house. 698 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,720 He was a married man from Egypt. 699 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:54,800 And that was our new home. 700 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,480 Did you feel positive about the relationship? 701 00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:58,840 I mean, at first, yes. 702 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,200 He was obviously very nice to me at the beginning, 703 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,720 so it was OK. 704 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,200 And then what happened? 705 00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,160 And then he just comes home one day and he's like, 706 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:10,840 "I have to go to prison." 707 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,840 And I was like, I'm like, "What do you mean?" 708 00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,000 And he was like, 709 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,360 "It's OK. I think it will just be for, like, a couple of days." 710 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,240 Why did he go to prison? 711 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:22,000 Because they thought he was a spy. 712 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:25,240 How long were you together before he went to prison? Ten days. 713 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,200 And he asked the man and the woman in the house if they could 714 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:31,800 take care of me, if I could stay. 715 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:35,240 And they said, "Of course, she can stay as long as she needs." 716 00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:40,360 She refers to an Egyptian with whom she stayed 717 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,360 in northern Syria. Now, who is that Egyptian? 718 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,520 She was very opaque with me about it. 719 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,040 It was one of the subjects she didn't want to go into 720 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,360 and kind of skipped around, which drew my attention to it. 721 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,280 If I was a cop, I'd be wanting to know, who is this Egyptian? 722 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,840 What was his influence on her? That's important. 723 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:12,240 You said that you and your husband stayed with an Egyptian family. 724 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:15,000 Do you remember any of their names or anything like that? 725 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,000 Any of their kunyas? No. 726 00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,280 And what were their names? 727 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,440 Their kunyas were Umm Qomra and Abu Qomra, that's it. 728 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,720 And they were Egyptian? Yeah. 729 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:28,520 And you don't know their real names? No. 730 00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,200 But you don't remember his actual name? 731 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,480 His non-kunya. 732 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,320 Think it was like Saeed or something. Saeed? Yeah. 733 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,160 I heard his wife say a few times and then him answer, 734 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,360 So that must be his name. Saeed? Yeah. 735 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,240 What was his personality like? 736 00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:49,960 He was really nice. He was, yeah, he was really nice to me. 737 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,840 He was like a father figure in a way. Really? Yeah. 738 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,640 Do you know what he did in Isis? No. 739 00:44:56,720 --> 00:45:00,120 You never heard anything, any sort of Arabic or descriptive term 740 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,640 of what his job was? No. 741 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,680 What's the significance of this man potentially being 742 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,480 an armourer for Isis? 743 00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,400 Well, it would mean that he played a significant role 744 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,320 on behalf of Isis, providing weapons. 745 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,320 Why might Shamima change her story or potentially conceal 746 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,040 information from me? 747 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,560 There's fear. There's trauma. 748 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:19,240 Disassociation in itself could mean that people 749 00:46:19,240 --> 00:46:22,800 would see her as a threat simply by that association. 750 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,240 There are also consequences in terms of, you know, 751 00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:32,120 what she's able to freely say, knowing that, you know, 752 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,560 any information can also incriminate her. 753 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:39,320 So we've been told that he was arming Isis members. 754 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,800 Had you ever heard about that? No. 755 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:46,040 How do you feel about the idea that you were living with somebody 756 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,120 that was providing weapons to Isis members? 757 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,520 I don't... I don't know... 758 00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,880 I don't know. I mean, I don't believe that personally. 759 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,080 And secondly, I don't know how to even respond to that answer. 760 00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,520 What was it like being in Raqqa? 761 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:23,920 It almost felt like a movie, like I was in a movie. 762 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:28,480 Seeing the roundabout with all the, like, restaurants. 763 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,000 It was a lot to take in. 764 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,640 It was kind of like what I imagined, kind of not like what I imagined. 765 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,320 Seeing how everything was functioning and stuff, 766 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,080 like it was normal life. 767 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,200 Did it feel very different to Bethnal Green? 768 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,480 Yeah, it did. Yeah, a lot. 769 00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:49,840 How? I mean, firstly, there were guns. 770 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:51,880 There were a lot of guns. 771 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,960 And secondly, 772 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,560 it just felt more restrictive walking around. 773 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,480 Like, when you go outside, you can't, like, lift up the first layer 774 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,480 of your veil that just shows your eyes. 775 00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,720 You can't do that even though it's hard to, like, 776 00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:08,240 walk in the street, you know. 777 00:48:08,240 --> 00:48:10,960 If you do, even for one second, like, a guy from across the street 778 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:12,440 will, like, yell at you. 779 00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,960 It's sort of well known that in Raqqa, 780 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,880 people would hold public executions. 781 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:20,640 Did you ever see any of that? No. 782 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,760 I mean, people might find it hard to believe that you didn't. 783 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,120 Well, I mean, I didn't go outside a lot because my husband 784 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:28,720 did not let me go out a lot. 785 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:31,440 And while he was in prison, the man I was staying with 786 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,280 also did not let me go out a lot, so... 787 00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:37,360 How long was he in prison for? Seven months. 788 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,840 What were you doing for seven months? Sitting in that room. 789 00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,400 Sitting in that...that room. 790 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,400 Just doing nothing. 791 00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:52,680 Shamima Begum's told me that she rarely left 792 00:48:52,680 --> 00:48:54,960 the home in Raqqa. 793 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:57,360 Do you think that's plausible? 794 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,880 When you look at this type of ideology, 795 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,080 the woman's place is really in the home. 796 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,040 You know, they wanted to grow the caliphate 797 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:09,720 and you can't do that without women. 798 00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:15,760 So, predominantly, their role was to marry fighters 799 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,760 and breed children who they can train and radicalise 800 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,200 and be of the same ideology. 801 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,080 Did you question your decision yet? 802 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,040 Or did you still think you'd made the right choice? 803 00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:30,120 I mean, I always, in the back of my mind, 804 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,080 was, like, questioning my decision. 805 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,680 But I just, I knew there was nothing I could do about it. 806 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,280 So I just had to keep, like, persevering and going on, you know, 807 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,840 trying to live this new life that I decided to be a part of. 808 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,520 CHATTERING AND HUBBUB 809 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,160 There's Shamima's narrative, which is essentially 810 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:01,880 she was just a housewife, she stayed at home most of the time, 811 00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:03,600 she got married fast. 812 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,040 Then there is the narrative that in fact 813 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,360 she was an active member of the terror group. 814 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:13,680 Shamima Begum does have some very big questions to answer. 815 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,200 There have been a number of allegations made against you 816 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,280 in the media over the years, 817 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,200 and can we go through them? Mm-hm. 818 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,400 One such allegation is, did you ever help prepare suicide vests? 819 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,720 No. Not at all? Not at all. 820 00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:45,320 Did you ever try to recruit people or encourage them to join Isis? 821 00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:46,560 No. 822 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,120 Never at all? Never. 823 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,080 Did you communicate with friends back in London 824 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,680 when you were with Isis? I don't want to answer that question. 825 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,560 Did you receive any form of training? 826 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,240 Were you given any of that? 827 00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:02,400 No, not at all. 828 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,480 Was Shamima part of Hisbah? 829 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,840 Were you ever a member of Hisbah, Isis's religious police? No. 830 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:05,760 So there's a woman in Hisbah who says she saw you 831 00:52:05,760 --> 00:52:07,800 receiving some training. 832 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,200 No. No? 833 00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:12,640 When I first came, when I first crossed the border? 834 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,240 At any point during your time in Isis. 835 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:16,160 I mean, I'd like to specifically know when 836 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:18,320 so I can say what I was doing instead. 837 00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,320 Well, OK, let me rephrase it. 838 00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:23,920 Any time during your life in Isis, were you given any form 839 00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,520 of either religious training or weapons training? 840 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,680 No. Nothing at all? No. 841 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:30,520 Do you feel... 842 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,560 ..that it is fair to prosecute you for being a member of Isis? 843 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,360 No. You don't feel it's fair to prosecute you 844 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,800 for being a member of Isis? No. Why not? 845 00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:44,760 Because being a member of Isis... 846 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,760 ..is defined as, you know, doing their bidding, working for them. 847 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:50,120 And I just did none of that. 848 00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,360 If anything, I was about a non-Isis. 849 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,360 You did go and join Isis. Mm-hm. 850 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,520 You were a member of that group. 851 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,600 That group was committing genocide and committing crimes. 852 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,040 You are part of a group that's doing those things 853 00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,760 and as a result of that, you share some responsibility 854 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,280 for that group's actions. 855 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,520 I understand what you're trying to say, but really, I'm... 856 00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:13,640 I'm not going to take responsibility for other people's actions. 857 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,720 It would have happened regardless of whether I was there or not. 858 00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:15,440 I think one of the biggest struggles you're going to have 859 00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:16,920 is because you... 860 00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,040 ..don't seem to associate your presence within Isis, 861 00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:23,720 supporting the group. 862 00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:28,560 There is...an accountability that needs to be had 863 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,800 for your membership of that group. Do you agree with that? 864 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:34,520 If I go to court and a judge says that I have to go to prison 865 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,480 for a certain amount of time for this, then, yes, I will go. 866 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,320 But you... Of course you would, because the judge has made 867 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,760 the decision, that's different towards what you feel. 868 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,880 And what I'm just trying to understand is... 869 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:55,240 ..if you truly understand that you being part of this group 870 00:54:55,240 --> 00:55:01,320 in some way helped them and was an act of support 871 00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,200 for that group. Mm-hm. 872 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:04,840 Do you agree with that? 873 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,280 I understand what you're trying to say and I would take 874 00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,320 responsibility for it. So you would? Yeah. 875 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:16,120 And you understand that that group committed acts like genocide? 876 00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:17,840 Yeah, I do understand that. 877 00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:23,320 So when you reflect upon that, how do you feel about your decision 878 00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,000 to be a member of that group? 879 00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:29,080 Ashamed of myself for being so stupid, 880 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:32,000 for falling for something like this. 881 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:33,440 Just... 882 00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:36,080 ..a lot of regret. 883 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,160 What happens on the day you were released? 884 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:53,800 Can you take me through that day? 885 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:56,880 It was a shock. 886 00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,880 I thought I was a dead man walking. 887 00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,200 All of a sudden, I get put into a van 888 00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,600 and I get dropped off somewhere in the middle of Raqqa. 889 00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:06,760 But of course, I was happy. 890 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:08,440 I was euphoric. 891 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,520 There was a knock at the door and I just, like, opened the door 892 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,600 and my husband came in and we just stared at each other. 893 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,160 And then we didn't say anything. We just hugged each other. 894 00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,160 Gave me a very, very, very strong hug. 895 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,680 She was very happy to see me as well. 896 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:27,600 It was a very, very nice moment, yeah. 897 00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:31,120 Yeah. Were you surprised? 898 00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:32,960 Yeah, I was really surprised. 899 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,760 I was surprised and happy, though, that he was out 900 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,680 and that he was not a spy. 901 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,760 CHILDREN SHOUT PLAYFULLY 902 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,600 We got an apartment of our own. 903 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,560 And I got to spend some time with her. 904 00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:55,600 I got to know her. 905 00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:00,680 He was a very different person 906 00:57:00,680 --> 00:57:03,360 then when he... when I first married him. 907 00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:08,120 He was just, like, very quiet and reserved and, yeah, 908 00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,680 just didn't show his emotions much. 909 00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,400 You know, it was hard for him to stay in Isis 910 00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,400 after everything that they'd done to him. 911 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,520 He didn't want to continue being there. 912 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,280 He didn't want to fight for them. 913 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,320 Do you remember the moment that you became disillusioned? 914 00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:26,360 Yeah. 915 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:28,960 After I got out of prison. 916 00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,080 It's like, "What the heck is this? What did I come to?" 917 00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,280 He had no friends because he found out that all his friends 918 00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,360 were talking about him while he was in prison. 919 00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,160 So he just cut them all off. 920 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,440 And I felt like I didn't want to see my friends, you know, 921 00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,560 because they would just talk about how great Isis is 922 00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,600 and I just didn't want to hear any of it. 923 00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,760 So I was just at home with my husband. 924 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:55,680 And that was hard. You know, you start to lose your mind 925 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:58,200 when you're just only stuck with each other. 926 00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:04,680 How was his behaviour towards you in that period? 927 00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,080 Just taking out his anger and frustration on me. 928 00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,320 Because of the situation he was in. 929 00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:14,880 Was that abusive? 930 00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:17,040 Yeah. 931 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:20,760 WIND WHISTLES 932 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:29,120 Did you ever try to leave Isis? No. 933 00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:30,880 And why? 934 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:33,400 Because just... it was just too hard. 935 00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,880 What would have happened if you'd been caught? 936 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,800 Probably put in prison and tortured, 937 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:42,800 because they would assume that I'm a spy for wanting to leave. 938 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:46,360 If they could do it to my husband, 939 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:48,840 then they could maybe do it to me too, you know. 940 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:08,960 Hello? Hi. You OK? 941 00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:14,640 How are you? 942 00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:36,960 What? You feel scared? 943 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:40,800 Why do you feel scared? 944 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:49,720 I know what you mean. 945 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:52,640 I understand what you mean. 946 00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,400 And it is, you know, where you're from, where you are, 947 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:56,680 I can understand. 948 00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,440 I learned that Kadiza wanted to come back from her auntie. 949 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,040 She was crying, 950 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:08,080 saying that she was on her own and she wanted to come home. 951 01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:09,360 Erm... 952 01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,840 We'd been working with another family to get their daughter back 953 01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:18,560 from Syria, unconnected to this, and we'd already formulated a plan. 954 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,280 So it was fortuitous. 955 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:22,720 A lot of people trying to get out of Isis by this stage 956 01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,280 and Isis were desperate to stop people getting out 957 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,520 and they were executing them. 958 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:32,680 There was a point where Kadiza seemed to want to leave Isis. 959 01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,240 Did you know she wanted to leave? I did not know. 960 01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,320 This was the time where their husbands had died 961 01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,080 and my husband had just come out of prison. 962 01:00:40,080 --> 01:00:42,320 So I was with my husband mostly 963 01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,680 and my friends were living together in their own house. 964 01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:47,120 So all of this was going on without my knowledge. 965 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,280 I understand that you're feeling scared, yeah. 966 01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,760 I don't trust your friends, you know, by the way. 967 01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,800 I mean, she's a young woman and 968 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,000 she was in the impossible situation of trying to assess 969 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:09,400 whether staying where she was more lethal or less lethal 970 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,960 than trying to escape, which, of course, is lethal. 971 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:16,680 But, you know, these are the choices that war presents you. 972 01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:24,560 I kind of just look forward for the next call, 973 01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:26,680 and that's what keeps me going. 974 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:45,880 The night I heard the bomb, I didn't know at that time, like, 975 01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:47,320 how much it would affect me. 976 01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:00,360 The next morning, Amira and Sharmeena, they came to tell me 977 01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:02,160 that Kadiza had been killed. 978 01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:04,560 And then we were told we had to go to the hospital 979 01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:06,000 and just to identify a body. 980 01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,760 So we went and we identified her body. 981 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,960 That was one of the lowest points in my life, I guess. 982 01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:17,640 Seeing her body like that, you know. 983 01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:22,320 With her, it's just like... 984 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,400 ..a constant reminder, you know, that she could be alive today, 985 01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:29,160 but she's not. 986 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:32,680 And in a way, it might, it may be my fault, because if I had said, 987 01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:36,320 you know, "I don't want to go to Isis. Guys, don't come either." 988 01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:39,320 Or if I told the police the truth, maybe she would still be alive. 989 01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:41,360 You know, maybe we would have never gone to Syria. 990 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,200 Maybe they would have never spoken to me again because they would see 991 01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,480 me as a snitch, but they'd still be alive. 992 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:48,320 And that would be enough for me. 993 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,280 So you feel guilty? Yeah. 994 01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,560 But they made their own decisions, didn't they? 995 01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,880 They did. But I feel like I could have stopped it. 996 01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:03,800 It's just how I feel. 997 01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:08,120 Is it hard to carry that around? It is. 998 01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:11,600 And if I ever do go back to the UK, 999 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,760 having to face their families is going to be really hard. 1000 01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:37,000 LOUD EXPLOSION 1001 01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:42,000 MEN CALL OUT 1002 01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,360 When I was pregnant with my daughter, maybe seven months, 1003 01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:48,200 the bombing started to get really bad and my husband looked at 1004 01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,080 the situation and he said, 1005 01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,480 "Raqqa is going to fall and I don't want to be here when that happens." 1006 01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,360 The situation looked very unstable. 1007 01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,080 I didn't want to be there for the fight. 1008 01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:05,520 But he also did not want me to be there in my condition, 1009 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,200 because I was pregnant. I felt like I would not have been able 1010 01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:10,320 to survive Isis without him. 1011 01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:11,840 Even though there were hard times, 1012 01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:13,800 I thought, I told myself that it's worth it 1013 01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:18,360 because if I did not have him, I would lose my fucking mind. 1014 01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:21,640 So I told her, "We're going to have to move soon." 1015 01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:23,520 She says, "OK, we'll move." 1016 01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:25,600 So we pack our bags 1017 01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:28,960 and we went to Deir ez-Zor. 1018 01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:39,680 I was at the end of my, at the end of my pregnancy, you know. 1019 01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:41,160 I gave birth. 1020 01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,040 It was just by myself, you know, taking care of my daughter 1021 01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,680 with my husband. Didn't know much. 1022 01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:50,960 There was nothing more beautiful to me than my daughter. 1023 01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:55,160 So it wasn't easy, but still, you know, 1024 01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:59,000 that was the family element and I did get to enjoy, you know. 1025 01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:03,560 It was really scary because I didn't know anything about being a mum. 1026 01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:07,720 I barely knew anything about being an adult, let alone a mum. 1027 01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:09,920 But obviously, after I gave birth to my daughter, 1028 01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:11,440 the bombing scared me a lot more. 1029 01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:13,920 They made me realise that I'm not just responsible for myself. 1030 01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:16,200 I'm responsible for another human being 1031 01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:20,080 that completely depends on me, and I took that very seriously. 1032 01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:23,360 And it was... it was a really big burden on me. 1033 01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:27,600 And then right after I gave birth, I got pregnant again. 1034 01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,800 So I gave birth to my son, like, 11 months later. 1035 01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:00,160 Did you worry about bringing kids into that environment? 1036 01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:04,800 I didn't think it was going to end like that. 1037 01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,600 Didn't think it was going to be that bad. 1038 01:06:09,840 --> 01:06:12,120 There wasn't anything in the shops to buy any more, 1039 01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:13,960 like milk and diapers for kids and food. 1040 01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,160 And, like, everything became more expensive. 1041 01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:19,400 What happened to the children? 1042 01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:25,400 When you make wheat, when you make flour, there is a waste product. 1043 01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,680 Like the shells that they give to, I think, cows and stuff. 1044 01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,600 That's what we was making, like, a sort of soup of, I guess. 1045 01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:37,480 And there was some green stuff growing outside. 1046 01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:40,960 That's what we was eating for maybe months on end. 1047 01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,160 So first of all, my son, he passed away because 1048 01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,240 she didn't have breast milk. 1049 01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:50,560 And he couldn't eat. 1050 01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:55,720 Afterwards... 1051 01:06:57,600 --> 01:06:59,120 ..my daughter, she... 1052 01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:03,960 ..got really, really skinny 1053 01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,040 and at one point she couldn't stand up by herself any more and... 1054 01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:13,680 At one point I came home and I heard that she had stopped breathing 1055 01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:15,520 and they brought her to the hospital. 1056 01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:19,200 She was my world. She was my reason for living through everything, 1057 01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:22,120 through Isis and through my husband's abuse. 1058 01:07:22,120 --> 01:07:23,840 You know, she just kept me going, you know. 1059 01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:25,640 I always... I was living for her, you know. 1060 01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:27,840 I wasn't living for anyone else but her. 1061 01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:31,320 So when she died, it was like my entire world just 1062 01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:33,120 collapsed around me, you know? 1063 01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,600 But the only reason I didn't kill myself was obviously 1064 01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,560 because I was pregnant with my second son. 1065 01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,320 But if I had not been pregnant, I would have taken my life. 1066 01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:48,320 DISTANT GUNFIRE 1067 01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:56,680 NEWS REPORT: Pounded by artillery, 1068 01:07:56,680 --> 01:08:00,320 the last vestiges of the first modern-day caliphate are crumbling. 1069 01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,080 DISTANT EXPLOSIONS 1070 01:08:03,080 --> 01:08:06,720 The supposed utopia becoming a mass of death and rubble. 1071 01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,720 I knew and everyone else knew that there was nowhere else to run. 1072 01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:12,960 This was the last place, you know. There's no plan B. 1073 01:08:12,960 --> 01:08:15,800 I was really depressed. I didn't want to get up any more. 1074 01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:18,520 I didn't want to get up and run from the bombs and the fighting. 1075 01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:21,360 I just wanted to, like, just lie down and die. 1076 01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:23,720 But my husband kept pushing me to, like, get up and go. 1077 01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:29,120 We walked out together with a group of Syrians and Iraqis. 1078 01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:36,000 From sun, sunrise to sunset we were walking 1079 01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,240 and I was heavily pregnant at that time. 1080 01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:43,160 So that was hard as well and I was severely malnourished as well. 1081 01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:44,840 We didn't know where we were walking. 1082 01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:48,000 We were just following the person at the front until we finally, like, 1083 01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:49,520 met these soldiers. 1084 01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:51,440 We spent a night in the desert. 1085 01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:55,320 After this we got separated. 1086 01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:57,960 I got taken to prison, my wife got taken to the camps. 1087 01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:00,600 And that's the last I've heard of her. 1088 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,000 Would you want to reunite with Shamima? 1089 01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:06,720 Yeah, of course. She's my wife. 1090 01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:08,280 How can I live without her? 1091 01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:12,920 Would you want to be with him? No. 1092 01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:14,560 Why not? 1093 01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:19,160 Bec... You know, I just stayed married to him in Isis 1094 01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,280 because I... to survive. 1095 01:09:21,280 --> 01:09:23,760 But out in the real world, I wouldn't need him 1096 01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:27,360 and I wouldn't tolerate his crap, because I don't need him. 1097 01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:29,600 But you did love him for a while, right? 1098 01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:33,280 I don't want to answer that question. 1099 01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:36,920 CHILDREN CRY 1100 01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:47,000 Thousands of women and children were coming out of Baghuz 1101 01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:50,360 and they were being bussed up to Al-Hol Camp. 1102 01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:56,720 Lots of wire, lots of tents, pretty ragged tents. 1103 01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:00,400 Kids, you know, pretty thin kids running around 1104 01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,080 through the kind of mud and dust. 1105 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:08,600 All these women all still dressed in black, in full niqab. 1106 01:10:08,600 --> 01:10:12,480 These thin, quite undernourished women who have been through it 1107 01:10:12,480 --> 01:10:14,880 in a camp at the edge of a desert. 1108 01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:20,640 I just remember sitting in the administration block 1109 01:10:20,640 --> 01:10:23,320 and chasing this conversation on for a long time, 1110 01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:26,400 kind of in circles, with this administrator from the camp. 1111 01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:28,560 "I'd really like to speak to some of the British women 1112 01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:30,360 "who might have turned up here from Baghuz." 1113 01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:33,360 He then reappears with two women who are fully covered. 1114 01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:38,000 And so I say, you know, "Obviously I want to speak to you." 1115 01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:42,120 And she said something back to me in a London accent. 1116 01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:45,000 And I'm like, "Wait, hang on, wait. You're from London." 1117 01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,120 And she's like, "Yeah, I'm a sister from London. 1118 01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:49,520 "I'm a Bethnal Green girl." 1119 01:10:49,520 --> 01:10:51,440 She said, "I'm a Bethnal Green girl?" 1120 01:10:51,440 --> 01:10:52,920 "I'm a Bethnal Green girl. 1121 01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:55,800 "I'm a sister from London. I'm a Bethnal Green girl." 1122 01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:17,760 So the first thought that went through my head was, 1123 01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:21,240 right, OK, I need to take control of this environment now. 1124 01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:22,840 This is important. 1125 01:11:22,840 --> 01:11:25,240 This isn't a conversation with someone who's just come 1126 01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:28,440 out of Baghuz. This is Shamima Begum, this is a Bethnal... 1127 01:11:28,440 --> 01:11:30,560 one of the missing Bethnal Green girls. 1128 01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:33,880 And it was quite easy 1129 01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,280 between us, speaking. 1130 01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,720 It was immediately like, 1131 01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,640 "OK, you are straight out of Islamic State, straight out of Baghuz, 1132 01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:45,640 "but you're also a London girl." 1133 01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:49,680 And we could kind of have this slightly bipolar conversation. 1134 01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,240 Then you lived together in Raqqa or somewhere else? 1135 01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:00,040 What was that like? 1136 01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:02,720 Was that an experience which fulfilled your aspirations 1137 01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:04,680 of what it was...? 1138 01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:15,920 Did you ever see executions? 1139 01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:22,520 In the bins? 1140 01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:24,840 What was that like when you first saw that? 1141 01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:26,800 These are the heads of captives? 1142 01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:32,800 Being unfazed doesn't interest me so much. 1143 01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:36,480 What interests me far more is the logic around how that guy 1144 01:12:36,480 --> 01:12:38,280 had had his head cut off. 1145 01:12:38,280 --> 01:12:40,080 I said, "Who was he? A captive or what?" 1146 01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:43,440 And she said, "Yeah, he was captive. He was seized on the battlefield." 1147 01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:46,480 So I'm like, "Well, didn't it bother you that he ended up beheaded?" 1148 01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:50,080 And she's, "No. Just think what he would have done to a Muslim woman." 1149 01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,000 This is immediate radicalised logic. 1150 01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:56,520 She is speaking like that because, as I would exactly expect her 1151 01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,360 to speak, she's been with Islamic State for four years. 1152 01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:02,640 And that's how you speak, that's how you think. 1153 01:13:12,080 --> 01:13:13,720 When is your baby due? 1154 01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,120 Why do you think she walked out of Baghuz? 1155 01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,680 She wanted to save her baby's life, more than her own. 1156 01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,120 Some women wouldn't have wanted to come back to save the life 1157 01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:31,080 of their unborn child. They would have said, 1158 01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:33,680 "It's the will of God. I live in the land of caliphate. 1159 01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,520 "If Allah wants the life of my child, 1160 01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:38,440 "then he'll take it." 1161 01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:42,960 You don't automatically assume that a woman is going to say, 1162 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:45,320 "I need to go home because I want the NHS to save the life 1163 01:13:45,320 --> 01:13:46,800 "of my unborn child." 1164 01:13:47,960 --> 01:13:50,880 Just before I left, I said, "Can I take a photo?" 1165 01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:55,720 And so she sat down and I just took five frames. 1166 01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,320 NEWS REPORT: Straight to The Times. "Bring me home." 1167 01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:08,160 In one way, she's back from the dead. 1168 01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:10,680 She said she had no regrets about going. 1169 01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:13,960 But now, nine months pregnant, she wants to return home. 1170 01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:15,240 I don't know that Britain 1171 01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:17,080 wants people like that back in this country. 1172 01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:19,080 Is she still filled with hatred for this country? 1173 01:14:19,080 --> 01:14:20,880 If we do have a no-deal Brexit, 1174 01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:24,920 do you want to come back to the UK? AUDIENCE LAUGHS 1175 01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:28,800 I mean, this is a woman who marries an Isis terrorist 1176 01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:30,560 and is, for all intents and purposes, 1177 01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:32,680 herself an Isis terrorist, isn't she? 1178 01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:36,840 She's 19 years old, she's an adult. We don't want her back. 1179 01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:40,120 You wouldn't have her back, then? No. No. No, no. Definitely not. 1180 01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:42,840 She should be done for treason. Yes. 1181 01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:44,920 And she's a risk for this country. 1182 01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:47,600 She should stay where she is. I'm telling you, she's a traitor. 1183 01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:50,280 ANTHONY LOYD: Everybody had an opinion about Shamima Begum. 1184 01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:53,120 Every pundit was out there writing something on TV 1185 01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:54,760 saying this, that and the other. 1186 01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,800 You know, some people in the media was just saying, 1187 01:14:56,800 --> 01:14:59,640 let her die in the desert. I mean, this is the mainstream media. 1188 01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:01,680 This wasn't just on social media platforms. 1189 01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:05,400 After that interview, you know, I gave birth. 1190 01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:08,120 And while I was in the delivery room recovering from giving birth, 1191 01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:10,800 you know, there was a knock on the door and there were journalists 1192 01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:12,640 who wanted to speak to me. 1193 01:15:12,640 --> 01:15:15,640 You know, it's just a whole other thing. 1194 01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:18,520 NEWS REPORT: Underneath her black abaya dress, 1195 01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:20,440 she cradles her two-day-old son. 1196 01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:23,280 Shamima Begum stuck with the extremists 1197 01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:25,520 until the very last moment. 1198 01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:27,560 But now she wants forgiveness. 1199 01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:31,320 So here's your opportunity, then, to apologise to some of the people 1200 01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:34,120 who were murdered by the group that you joined. 1201 01:15:34,120 --> 01:15:36,680 Some of the British men, some of the women, some of the kids 1202 01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:39,400 from Manchester who were killed in the Manchester Arena. 1203 01:15:39,400 --> 01:15:41,720 You must have heard about that attack. 1204 01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:43,680 What did you think about that? 1205 01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:46,200 I was shocked, but... 1206 01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:46,200 BABY WHIMPERS 1207 01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:47,640 But? 1208 01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:49,400 I just couldn't... 1209 01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,400 I didn't know about the kids, actually, but... Don't know. 1210 01:15:56,680 --> 01:16:00,480 I do feel that is wrong, that, like, innocent people did get killed. 1211 01:16:00,480 --> 01:16:02,840 It's a two-way thing, really. 1212 01:16:02,840 --> 01:16:05,720 Because women and children are being killed back in the Islamic State 1213 01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:07,360 right now. 1214 01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:09,080 And it's kind of retaliation. 1215 01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:11,800 Like, their justification was that it was retaliation. 1216 01:16:11,800 --> 01:16:15,360 So I thought, OK, that is a fair justification. 1217 01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:19,560 Do you regret saying these things? 1218 01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:21,880 Of course I regret saying it, you know. 1219 01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:25,280 What would you say to survivors of that attack? 1220 01:16:25,280 --> 01:16:28,160 I'm so sorry that you went through this. 1221 01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:31,440 And I know I supported it. 1222 01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:33,760 And if I could, I would 1223 01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:37,560 spend the rest of my life trying to persuade people not to do things 1224 01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,160 like this who may fall into things like this. 1225 01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:48,120 How are you feeling? 1226 01:16:48,120 --> 01:16:51,560 I just gave birth, so I'm really tired. Yeah. 1227 01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:56,240 And can you tell me a bit about the child? 1228 01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:00,240 It's a boy. It's a boy? Yeah. 1229 01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,000 I felt very used by the journalists. 1230 01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,720 I felt like they did not care about my mental health 1231 01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:08,800 and where my mind was at that time. 1232 01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:12,200 Could you describe for us what it has been like 1233 01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:15,000 to live with and under Islamic State? 1234 01:17:18,040 --> 01:17:19,960 You know, at first it was nice. 1235 01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:22,560 It was like how they, you know, sold it... 1236 01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:33,000 I felt, like, an obligation to say the things I did 1237 01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:35,280 because of the women in the camps, you know, 1238 01:17:35,280 --> 01:17:38,600 who still had these radical ideologies, who still loved Isis, 1239 01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:42,920 you know, and who considered anyone who spoke bad about Isis 1240 01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:45,800 as non-Muslims. 1241 01:17:45,800 --> 01:17:49,200 And so, someone they could kill if they wanted to. 1242 01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:54,480 Shamima. Hello. 1243 01:17:54,480 --> 01:17:56,240 Take a seat. 1244 01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:58,560 Until our conversation this morning, 1245 01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:02,080 Shamima Begum had assumed she was coming back to Britain. 1246 01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,720 Have you heard anything new about your case? 1247 01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:08,160 No. 1248 01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:12,160 I only get information about my case every time a journalist comes to me. 1249 01:18:12,160 --> 01:18:14,640 What was the last information that you'd heard? 1250 01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:16,840 That not everyone wants me to come back 1251 01:18:16,840 --> 01:18:19,720 and it might take a bit of time for me to 1252 01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:21,680 come back. 1253 01:18:21,680 --> 01:18:23,400 They got this in the post. 1254 01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:26,000 But I'd come here with a copy of the letter 1255 01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:28,080 sent to her parents yesterday, 1256 01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:30,720 stripping her of British citizenship. 1257 01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:39,240 SHE READS: Please find enclosed papers that relate to a decision 1258 01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:41,880 taken by the Home Secretary to deprive your daughter, 1259 01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:44,440 Shamima Begum, of her British citizenship. 1260 01:18:44,440 --> 01:18:47,920 In light of the circumstances of your daughter, the notice 1261 01:18:47,920 --> 01:18:51,520 of the Home Secretary's decision has been served on file today, 1262 01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:55,680 19th February, and the order removing her citizenship 1263 01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:57,960 has subsequently been made. 1264 01:18:59,440 --> 01:19:00,600 OK, then. 1265 01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:04,960 What do you think? 1266 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:06,640 I don't know what to say. 1267 01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:11,000 I don't know why my case is any different... 1268 01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:14,320 ..to other people. 1269 01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:17,160 Was it just because I was on the news four years ago? 1270 01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:20,920 I feel like it's a bit unjust on me and my son. 1271 01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:24,000 Yeah. 1272 01:19:24,000 --> 01:19:26,560 But you've done this to your son. 1273 01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,240 I mean, this is a consequence of your actions. 1274 01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:33,280 Well... 1275 01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:35,200 I don't know what to say. 1276 01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:40,000 I don't know what to say. 1277 01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:42,680 She seemed dazed, shocked, 1278 01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:44,640 but in control. 1279 01:19:44,640 --> 01:19:46,960 Except she's not. 1280 01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:50,200 What did you feel when you found that out? 1281 01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:54,000 Just hopeless and depressed and... 1282 01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:58,400 For the British government to just completely renounce 1283 01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:02,880 any responsibility over me, it was, I felt like, you know... 1284 01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:07,120 ..like I had nowhere else to go and my son also had nowhere else to go. 1285 01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:08,760 Like I had... 1286 01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:12,440 I just had no hope of living any more. 1287 01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:17,600 And I, you know, feared for my son and his life. 1288 01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:28,040 I absolutely understand the Home Secretary's move, 1289 01:20:28,040 --> 01:20:30,320 which has been upheld in our legal system, 1290 01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:33,640 that she should be stripped of British citizenship. 1291 01:20:33,640 --> 01:20:38,520 There has to be a consequence when you go and join an organisation 1292 01:20:38,520 --> 01:20:41,480 which is effectively dedicated to destroying Britain 1293 01:20:41,480 --> 01:20:43,960 and all it stands for and all its citizens, 1294 01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:46,120 for whom all of us are fair game. 1295 01:20:56,520 --> 01:20:59,560 After all the media attention, I was brought to this camp. 1296 01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:02,760 And then just one morning I woke up and he was really pale 1297 01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:05,680 and his lips were blue and he was struggling to breathe. 1298 01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:07,160 I went to the clinic and I said, 1299 01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:09,440 "Please, my son is, like, close to death. 1300 01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:11,120 "I don't know what's wrong with him. 1301 01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:13,400 "Please take him to the hospital outside." 1302 01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:15,920 And after, like, a lot of begging and arguing, you know, 1303 01:21:15,920 --> 01:21:17,440 they took me outside. 1304 01:21:17,440 --> 01:21:20,480 So we went to the big hospital, you know, and... 1305 01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:26,040 ..they just put an IV in him and put me in a room with him alone, 1306 01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:29,480 away from everyone else, and just left me there, you know, 1307 01:21:29,480 --> 01:21:32,840 with the soldier standing outside the door, you know, 1308 01:21:32,840 --> 01:21:35,560 while he was still struggling to breathe. 1309 01:21:35,560 --> 01:21:38,280 He passed away maybe in the middle of the night. 1310 01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:42,560 Just, you know, I just was completely numb and emotionless. 1311 01:21:42,560 --> 01:21:44,600 I was like, "I think my son is dead." 1312 01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:46,960 So she called the doctor and he tried to resuscitate him 1313 01:21:46,960 --> 01:21:48,200 and it didn't work. 1314 01:21:48,200 --> 01:21:51,200 So they just left me in the room and I had to stay there all night 1315 01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:54,520 with his body because I couldn't be taken to the camp 1316 01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:55,840 in the middle of the night. 1317 01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:59,240 I had to wait until morning to take him to get buried. 1318 01:22:04,920 --> 01:22:07,600 NEWS REPORT: The baby son of the teenager, Shamima Begum, 1319 01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:10,160 who has been stripped of her UK citizenship 1320 01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:13,040 for joining the Islamic State group, has died in Syria. 1321 01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:16,800 Shamima Begum's newborn baby has been buried in Syria 1322 01:22:16,800 --> 01:22:18,440 after dying of pneumonia. 1323 01:22:18,440 --> 01:22:21,040 The teenager who left London to join the Islamic State group... 1324 01:22:21,040 --> 01:22:23,360 The son of Shamima Begum, the teenager who left the UK 1325 01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:25,320 to join the so-called Islamic State, 1326 01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:28,080 has died in a detention camp in Syria. 1327 01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:30,600 The 19-year-old gave birth last month. 1328 01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:32,400 The Home Secretary, Sajid Javid, 1329 01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:34,840 stripped her of her British citizenship.... 1330 01:22:34,840 --> 01:22:37,360 Oh, my God. Now this. 1331 01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:43,080 Yeah. Young woman, three kids dead, like, six month period. 1332 01:22:43,080 --> 01:22:46,000 Citizenship removed, you know, smashed to pieces, 1333 01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:47,320 national hate figure. 1334 01:22:47,320 --> 01:22:48,920 That wasn't a great moment. 1335 01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:01,440 Can you tell me how many times you were pregnant? 1336 01:23:01,440 --> 01:23:03,120 Five times. 1337 01:23:03,120 --> 01:23:05,840 You were pregnant five times? Yeah. 1338 01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:08,280 But you had three kids? Yeah. 1339 01:23:08,280 --> 01:23:13,520 How do you feel now when you think back to your children? 1340 01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:16,320 I feel I could have done more to save them. 1341 01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:19,720 You know, like, got them out of this life. 1342 01:23:19,720 --> 01:23:23,080 In a way, I feel guilty for even bringing them into this world, 1343 01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:25,680 this horrible world, you know? 1344 01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:39,920 CHILDREN CHATTER 1345 01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:10,480 I'm curious, because we first started talking, believe it or not, 1346 01:24:10,480 --> 01:24:12,480 almost a year ago now. 1347 01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:15,960 What's changed since then? 1348 01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:20,640 Erm... Nothing. I don't know. 1349 01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:24,560 My, you know, my situation legally is still the same. 1350 01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:27,080 I'm still... I still don't have citizenship. 1351 01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:28,720 At least with prison sentences, 1352 01:24:28,720 --> 01:24:30,440 you know that there will be an end. 1353 01:24:30,440 --> 01:24:32,640 But here you don't know if there's going to be an end. 1354 01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:36,240 What do you think you'll be doing in seven years' time from now? 1355 01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:39,400 Still be in this camp. Really? Yeah. 1356 01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:43,000 You don't think you'll be home? Nope. 1357 01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:44,600 Not at all? Nope. 1358 01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:48,120 Why not? 1359 01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:52,080 Because Isis was the worst thing of the 21st century, 1360 01:24:52,080 --> 01:24:54,120 and I was a part of it. 1361 01:24:54,120 --> 01:24:57,200 And now I have to face the consequences of my actions. 1362 01:24:57,200 --> 01:25:00,320 And this camp is the consequences of my actions. 1363 01:25:06,160 --> 01:25:09,640 TELEVISION COMMENTARY: ..Where they supported my decision unanimously, 1364 01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:11,080 and I think it's pretty clear cut. 1365 01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:14,400 Do you think it's kind of once a terrorist, always a terrorist? 1366 01:25:14,400 --> 01:25:17,680 Or, I mean, is she basically forever going to be stateless? 1367 01:25:17,680 --> 01:25:19,880 Do you think that that's what she deserves? 1368 01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:24,440 I am clear that the decision is both morally right, 1369 01:25:24,440 --> 01:25:27,880 absolutely right, but also is legally correct. 1370 01:25:27,880 --> 01:25:30,760 And it is the right one to protect the British people. 1371 01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:37,720 Shamima Begum has become the avenue by which people 1372 01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:40,320 are discussing Isis detainees. 1373 01:25:40,320 --> 01:25:42,680 And there's a lot of confusion. 1374 01:25:42,680 --> 01:25:44,920 What do we do next? 1375 01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:48,400 All of these Isis people are in detention now. 1376 01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:51,760 And what happens if you leave all these people out there? 1377 01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:54,480 The deprivation of citizenship, the leaving them over there, 1378 01:25:54,480 --> 01:25:56,160 that's all easy enough. 1379 01:25:57,440 --> 01:26:00,440 But actually, that in of itself isn't a solution. 1380 01:26:00,440 --> 01:26:06,000 This is a tinderbox that will ignite again at any moment. 1381 01:26:06,000 --> 01:26:08,880 And suddenly we're going to get sucked back in. 1382 01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:13,240 There's part of me that says if she is a threat 1383 01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:16,360 and she does need to be punished for what she's done, 1384 01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:20,240 then I'd rather she faced British justice, in which I have confidence. 1385 01:26:20,240 --> 01:26:23,400 The alternative being that she's in some 1386 01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:26,560 semi-secure camp, could escape, 1387 01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:30,360 could be released, could be liberated, 1388 01:26:30,360 --> 01:26:33,760 and if she is still a threat, could therefore still pose a threat 1389 01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:36,120 from another part of the world. 1390 01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:40,400 And that's the practical debate we need to have 1391 01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:45,000 and decide where we are safest, not where she is safest. 1392 01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:22,760 You can see she was groomed and manipulated, 1393 01:27:22,760 --> 01:27:25,080 so she should be able to come back. 1394 01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:28,280 But then on the other side, you think, if she does come back, 1395 01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:32,920 would other people who have the same toxic ideas that she had 1396 01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:35,440 think it's OK to do what she did? 1397 01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:40,440 Shamima bears prime responsibility for her own situation. 1398 01:27:40,440 --> 01:27:46,400 But even if she is guilty of a terrorist act 1399 01:27:46,400 --> 01:27:49,040 or of terrorist involvement, 1400 01:27:49,040 --> 01:27:53,240 she is still a child of our society and she is our responsibility. 1401 01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:23,720 Do you regret joining Isis? 1402 01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:28,000 Of course. I will regret it for the rest of my life. 1403 01:28:28,000 --> 01:28:31,520 Whether you can see it on my face or not, it kills me inside. 1404 01:28:34,600 --> 01:28:37,240 What would you say to your 15-year-old self now? 1405 01:28:39,080 --> 01:28:41,160 Don't do it, bitch. Just don't do it. 1406 01:28:42,680 --> 01:28:45,480 Really? Yeah, that's all I would say. 1407 01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:48,520 She wouldn't believe me anyway. 1408 01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:52,760 Like, she wouldn't have listened to me. 1409 01:28:52,760 --> 01:28:55,560 She'd have still decided to go? Probably, yeah. 1410 01:28:55,560 --> 01:28:57,480 She was too arrogant at that time.