1 00:00:01,102 --> 00:00:03,138 Viewers like you make this program possible. 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 3 00:00:03,204 --> 00:00:05,372 Support your local PBS station. 4 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 5 00:00:35,671 --> 00:00:37,238 The village shop and Post Office 6 00:00:37,238 --> 00:00:38,572 had come up for sale. 7 00:00:39,574 --> 00:00:41,809 Someone suggested that I would be the perfect person 8 00:00:41,809 --> 00:00:42,643 to take it over. 9 00:00:43,946 --> 00:00:49,017 I started my first job as a postman back in 1965, 10 00:00:49,017 --> 00:00:53,120 and in 1994, I took over the Post Office. 11 00:00:55,524 --> 00:00:58,392 I passed my interview so, yeah, I was given the position. 12 00:00:58,759 --> 00:01:00,327 And everything was perfect. 13 00:01:02,130 --> 00:01:03,966 We had a group of pensioners 14 00:01:03,966 --> 00:01:06,701 who would come in to get their pension every week. 15 00:01:08,069 --> 00:01:09,971 Very much part of a community. 16 00:01:11,039 --> 00:01:12,874 - 28p please, love. - How much? 17 00:01:12,940 --> 00:01:15,108 You do get to know your locals. 18 00:01:16,044 --> 00:01:17,345 We'd have a good banter, 19 00:01:17,412 --> 00:01:18,880 a good laugh with all the customers. 20 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:19,847 It was really good. 21 00:01:20,582 --> 00:01:22,684 You're not only their Postmaster, 22 00:01:22,684 --> 00:01:25,586 you were also an adviser to people. 23 00:01:25,586 --> 00:01:26,454 Two? 24 00:01:26,521 --> 00:01:28,323 It was lovely, you felt like you were 25 00:01:28,323 --> 00:01:30,024 actually the heart of the village. 26 00:01:30,091 --> 00:01:32,026 - Morning, with you in a minute. - No rush. 27 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:33,561 It was idyllic. 28 00:01:34,763 --> 00:01:38,199 I felt that I'd managed to get myself a good position. 29 00:01:38,199 --> 00:01:39,967 As a Postmistress, it is not easy. 30 00:01:41,269 --> 00:01:43,938 The idea was it would be my retirement business. 31 00:01:44,907 --> 00:01:47,274 I thought I was gonna spend the rest of my life there. 32 00:01:48,309 --> 00:01:50,912 But I didn't know what was ahead of me. 33 00:01:51,946 --> 00:01:52,947 I went through hell. 34 00:01:54,349 --> 00:01:56,518 It was diabolical. 35 00:01:56,785 --> 00:01:58,819 Something had to be done about it. 36 00:02:09,697 --> 00:02:10,831 Look, Alan! 37 00:02:11,999 --> 00:02:15,037 Look what we did, look what you did! 38 00:02:15,237 --> 00:02:17,504 Should the Post Office bosses go to prison, too? 39 00:02:17,571 --> 00:02:19,173 No. No, no. 40 00:02:19,407 --> 00:02:20,875 Hit them in their pockets. 41 00:02:21,409 --> 00:02:22,777 Hit them in their pockets. 42 00:02:23,244 --> 00:02:24,546 That's what you want to do. 43 00:02:24,546 --> 00:02:26,481 That's... that's what's going to hurt them. 44 00:02:27,182 --> 00:02:32,587 This is the story of a saga that began nearly 25 years ago. 45 00:02:32,587 --> 00:02:34,156 We were not mad, were we? 46 00:02:34,223 --> 00:02:36,324 Dealing with the Post Office has been more difficult 47 00:02:36,324 --> 00:02:37,525 than dealing with the mafia. 48 00:02:37,525 --> 00:02:39,328 It's like fighting a steam roller. 49 00:02:39,328 --> 00:02:42,798 A group of Subpostmasters from all over the UK 50 00:02:42,864 --> 00:02:45,067 fought to expose one of the widest 51 00:02:45,067 --> 00:02:48,470 miscarriages of justice in British legal history. 52 00:02:48,470 --> 00:02:50,105 We want answers now, 53 00:02:50,105 --> 00:02:53,007 to know who's actually done this to so many people, 54 00:02:53,007 --> 00:02:54,208 and why. 55 00:02:57,079 --> 00:02:59,481 There begins the long chain of accounting, 56 00:02:59,915 --> 00:03:02,583 every ha'penny of every transaction accounted for. 57 00:03:04,153 --> 00:03:07,621 The Post Office was established in 1660. 58 00:03:09,358 --> 00:03:11,325 And had always used a paper and pen to balance the books. 59 00:03:13,027 --> 00:03:15,997 But in 1999, management introduced 60 00:03:16,297 --> 00:03:18,199 something completely new. 61 00:03:21,068 --> 00:03:23,437 A computer system called Horizon. 62 00:03:24,205 --> 00:03:26,541 It was the biggest IT rollout in Europe. 63 00:03:26,608 --> 00:03:29,743 The Post Office connected 40 thousand terminals 64 00:03:30,244 --> 00:03:33,647 across the country to one central hub. 65 00:03:35,249 --> 00:03:36,651 An engineer arrived. 66 00:03:36,651 --> 00:03:39,320 He screwed it on the desk and I asked him what it was 67 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:40,521 and he goes, "That's Horizon." 68 00:03:41,990 --> 00:03:44,692 It's going live shortly, you'll hear all about it. 69 00:03:46,094 --> 00:03:48,563 "Great," I was really enthusiastic. 70 00:03:48,563 --> 00:03:52,767 I'd been involved in developing bespoke software packages 71 00:03:53,068 --> 00:03:55,303 where I'd worked before, and I was all for it. 72 00:03:56,738 --> 00:03:59,006 Basically, I never had a problem balancing it 73 00:03:59,073 --> 00:04:00,608 'til that was installed. 74 00:04:00,775 --> 00:04:03,411 And then a couple of months after that 75 00:04:03,411 --> 00:04:05,847 I had a very big shortfall at the end of the week. 76 00:04:05,914 --> 00:04:09,449 It said I was minus two thousand pounds. 77 00:04:10,652 --> 00:04:12,721 Just overnight, eleven thousand pounds 78 00:04:12,787 --> 00:04:13,888 of stamps had gone missing. 79 00:04:15,023 --> 00:04:18,426 I suddenly found I had 6,000 pound shortfall 80 00:04:18,493 --> 00:04:20,161 and I couldn't understand where that had gone. 81 00:04:20,928 --> 00:04:22,730 That was a ridiculous amount. 82 00:04:23,498 --> 00:04:26,967 There was no way of going back and checking stuff, 83 00:04:26,967 --> 00:04:28,703 like you did with the paper, 84 00:04:28,703 --> 00:04:31,372 cause once you pressed that button it had gone. 85 00:04:35,577 --> 00:04:37,144 I rang the help desk, 86 00:04:37,478 --> 00:04:40,048 and they told me to do various things, 87 00:04:40,048 --> 00:04:43,351 which doubled the shortfall to minus 4,000 pounds. 88 00:04:43,351 --> 00:04:46,254 When I rang the helpline, I was told that there was 89 00:04:46,254 --> 00:04:48,022 nobody else having these problems. 90 00:04:48,456 --> 00:04:50,759 Oh, yes, the helpline was telling you, 91 00:04:50,859 --> 00:04:52,826 "Nobody else has got a problem," 92 00:04:53,027 --> 00:04:54,395 "You're the only one," 93 00:04:54,395 --> 00:04:56,030 "You're the only one this is happening to." 94 00:04:56,097 --> 00:04:57,766 "You're the only one," 95 00:04:57,766 --> 00:04:58,899 that's what they kept saying. 96 00:05:00,334 --> 00:05:03,437 Then I started feeling like I was going mad. 97 00:05:04,539 --> 00:05:06,006 I knew I wasn't computer-literate, 98 00:05:06,006 --> 00:05:07,408 but I wasn't stupid either. 99 00:05:07,675 --> 00:05:10,445 In the end, you were totally confused, 100 00:05:10,445 --> 00:05:11,579 and nothing was done. 101 00:05:14,515 --> 00:05:16,684 Under the terms of their contracts, 102 00:05:16,684 --> 00:05:21,355 the 20,000 Subpostmasters were liable for any shortfall, 103 00:05:21,489 --> 00:05:22,924 whatever the cause. 104 00:05:22,924 --> 00:05:25,994 When it got to about nine thousand pounds short, 105 00:05:26,061 --> 00:05:30,030 I told my parents and my husband, and I said, 106 00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:33,434 "Can we remortgage and put the money in? 107 00:05:33,668 --> 00:05:35,637 Cause I've got no idea what's happening, 108 00:05:35,637 --> 00:05:37,371 but I've got to make it good." 109 00:05:37,806 --> 00:05:40,074 My mum went down to the building society 110 00:05:40,074 --> 00:05:41,075 and drew it out, 111 00:05:41,375 --> 00:05:44,312 an we put it into-- the money into the safe. 112 00:05:44,312 --> 00:05:47,482 Every week I was putting money in myself. 113 00:05:47,882 --> 00:05:52,086 So, we basically went through the cash until it all ran out 114 00:05:52,420 --> 00:05:55,222 to try and make up the balance every day. 115 00:05:55,222 --> 00:05:57,057 It was just up and down, up and down. 116 00:05:57,057 --> 00:05:58,426 It was never, ever right. 117 00:05:58,760 --> 00:05:59,961 And on the end of the month 118 00:05:59,961 --> 00:06:01,495 when we had to do the main balance, 119 00:06:03,098 --> 00:06:05,866 that's when it all used to come out, like... 120 00:06:07,234 --> 00:06:08,303 Where's this money gone? 121 00:06:08,370 --> 00:06:12,974 And the amount kept growing, so I then didn't say anything. 122 00:06:13,041 --> 00:06:17,445 I kept quiet and let it grow to 36 thousand pounds, 123 00:06:17,445 --> 00:06:19,546 terrified of what was gonna happen. 124 00:06:26,754 --> 00:06:28,356 In North Wales, 125 00:06:28,356 --> 00:06:31,859 one Subpostmaster took a different approach. 126 00:06:35,396 --> 00:06:38,166 I had a thousand pounds of shortfall, 127 00:06:38,266 --> 00:06:41,335 and I've never been accepting the figure 128 00:06:41,335 --> 00:06:43,371 that Horizon had thrown up each week. 129 00:06:43,371 --> 00:06:45,340 Because I always felt that if I cleared it, 130 00:06:45,340 --> 00:06:49,744 I was accepting the Horizon system's figures. 131 00:06:49,811 --> 00:06:51,345 And I wasn't prepared to do that. 132 00:06:51,980 --> 00:06:53,848 Eventually they got round to telling me 133 00:06:53,848 --> 00:06:56,016 I had to do it, or else. 134 00:06:56,918 --> 00:06:58,419 And I said, "I won't do it. 135 00:06:58,419 --> 00:07:00,688 Not until I have access to the system." 136 00:07:00,855 --> 00:07:05,192 And eventually they decided just to terminate my contract 137 00:07:05,192 --> 00:07:06,660 without giving me any reason, 138 00:07:07,595 --> 00:07:08,429 and that was it. 139 00:07:08,930 --> 00:07:11,466 So, they walked off with my life's savings, 140 00:07:11,466 --> 00:07:14,634 and they decided to give my Post Office to somebody else. 141 00:07:16,804 --> 00:07:19,407 Horizon just created a whole batch of worry, 142 00:07:19,407 --> 00:07:20,474 not just for me, 143 00:07:20,575 --> 00:07:23,344 but for Subpostmasters all over the country. 144 00:07:37,658 --> 00:07:41,463 I should probably clean at least until I'm 70-ish. 145 00:07:41,463 --> 00:07:46,868 I'm resigned to the fact that I only have the state pension, 146 00:07:46,935 --> 00:07:52,473 and unless I sell my house, I need to keep working. 147 00:07:58,679 --> 00:08:01,383 The Post Office used their sweeping powers 148 00:08:01,450 --> 00:08:05,653 to bring private prosecutions against their own employees. 149 00:08:05,787 --> 00:08:08,689 In 2003, they went after Jo 150 00:08:08,689 --> 00:08:11,358 for the money they said she'd stolen. 151 00:08:12,026 --> 00:08:14,095 I was originally charged with theft, 152 00:08:14,095 --> 00:08:17,732 and I pleaded not guilty, and we almost got to trial, 153 00:08:17,732 --> 00:08:19,600 and they offered up a plea bargain 154 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:21,502 at the eleventh hour, and said, 155 00:08:21,569 --> 00:08:23,838 "Well if you plead guilty to false accounting, 156 00:08:23,838 --> 00:08:25,539 we'll drop the theft charge, 157 00:08:25,539 --> 00:08:27,408 provided you repay the money." 158 00:08:28,609 --> 00:08:30,812 That meant Jo was forced to borrow 159 00:08:30,812 --> 00:08:33,681 in order to pay back the 36 thousand pounds 160 00:08:33,748 --> 00:08:35,750 the computer said was missing. 161 00:08:35,750 --> 00:08:39,519 I could only raise thirty thousand pounds on the house. 162 00:08:40,721 --> 00:08:42,456 So, we had a village meeting, 163 00:08:43,158 --> 00:08:45,426 and I had to explain to everybody 164 00:08:45,693 --> 00:08:48,696 that I was in trouble in the Post Office, 165 00:08:48,696 --> 00:08:50,598 and someone put their hand up 166 00:08:51,065 --> 00:08:53,233 and they said, cause it was November, 167 00:08:53,534 --> 00:08:54,836 they said, "Well, couldn't Jo 168 00:08:54,836 --> 00:08:56,437 have an early Christmas present?" 169 00:08:58,773 --> 00:09:00,308 And the moment I told them 170 00:09:00,308 --> 00:09:02,844 I thought they were all gonna think I'd stolen money, 171 00:09:03,244 --> 00:09:05,513 and they didn't it was quite the opposite, 172 00:09:05,513 --> 00:09:07,014 and, um, yeah. 173 00:09:07,615 --> 00:09:09,117 It was very humbling. 174 00:09:09,284 --> 00:09:11,452 And literally thousands of pounds 175 00:09:11,452 --> 00:09:13,086 went through the letterbox. 176 00:09:14,289 --> 00:09:16,557 I think we'd reached it in about two weeks. 177 00:09:16,557 --> 00:09:17,924 And, yeah. 178 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:21,028 - Wow. - My village. 179 00:09:27,402 --> 00:09:30,804 When she went to court, the village showed up again. 180 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,509 I just looked at the judge, and he goes, 181 00:09:34,509 --> 00:09:36,677 "Well, I'm not considering a custodial sentence." 182 00:09:37,011 --> 00:09:39,013 Well, I was literally-- 183 00:09:39,013 --> 00:09:41,248 just the tears were streaming down my face. 184 00:09:42,717 --> 00:09:45,118 Jo was sentenced to a twelve month 185 00:09:45,953 --> 00:09:47,087 supervision order. 186 00:09:50,992 --> 00:09:52,227 But there were other people 187 00:09:52,227 --> 00:09:55,295 who's ordeals left an even greater mark. 188 00:09:59,067 --> 00:10:00,867 We had a lot of happy memories here. 189 00:10:02,803 --> 00:10:05,273 Especially when the children used to come off the bus, 190 00:10:05,273 --> 00:10:07,242 we used to look forward to seeing them after school. 191 00:10:07,242 --> 00:10:11,545 They used to come running across this road, you know? 192 00:10:12,446 --> 00:10:13,947 I enjoyed being here as well. 193 00:10:14,782 --> 00:10:16,083 Would've handed it over to them. 194 00:10:17,919 --> 00:10:19,386 A lot of happy memories. 195 00:10:21,722 --> 00:10:22,822 But they all got broken. 196 00:10:25,059 --> 00:10:28,662 In 2009, the Post Office charged Jess 197 00:10:28,662 --> 00:10:32,066 with the theft of five thousand pounds, 198 00:10:32,066 --> 00:10:35,135 and her face was splashed across the local papers. 199 00:10:36,237 --> 00:10:38,707 Family members actually went round to the shops, 200 00:10:38,707 --> 00:10:42,175 local shops, and gathered as many papers as they could. 201 00:10:42,977 --> 00:10:46,313 It was also in one of the Punjabi papers as well. 202 00:10:47,215 --> 00:10:49,950 So, basically everybody read that story 203 00:10:50,350 --> 00:10:51,785 and pointed fingers. 204 00:10:54,422 --> 00:10:57,090 We had somebody come in and spit on the floor as well. 205 00:10:58,692 --> 00:11:00,261 We had car windows broken. 206 00:11:00,261 --> 00:11:05,065 You know, they did try and traumatize us, really. 207 00:11:08,736 --> 00:11:10,471 I would get this feeling that everybody else 208 00:11:10,471 --> 00:11:12,005 is thinking that, "She's a thief." 209 00:11:13,107 --> 00:11:17,110 And thinking about it day and night, day and night. 210 00:11:17,478 --> 00:11:18,979 I just wanted to end my life. 211 00:11:29,056 --> 00:11:30,690 I'm showing you the box. 212 00:11:32,059 --> 00:11:33,693 We can cross quickly. 213 00:11:35,196 --> 00:11:37,298 And this is where the Post Office was. 214 00:11:37,899 --> 00:11:41,101 Noel Thomas became a postman at the age of 17. 215 00:11:41,902 --> 00:11:45,039 In 2005, when his nightmare began, 216 00:11:45,173 --> 00:11:47,641 he'd only ever worked for the Post Office. 217 00:11:48,342 --> 00:11:49,276 Here we are. 218 00:11:49,977 --> 00:11:53,214 We're by the box which was the Post Office 219 00:11:53,214 --> 00:11:57,351 that my wife and I ran for... 220 00:11:57,417 --> 00:11:58,585 36 years. 221 00:12:00,388 --> 00:12:02,589 You know, it was a betrayal, wasn't it? 222 00:12:03,024 --> 00:12:04,291 When we lost this. 223 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,230 At half past seven there was a knock on the door, 224 00:12:09,230 --> 00:12:13,067 and there was a lady and a gentleman in the door, 225 00:12:13,067 --> 00:12:15,503 and said they were Post Office auditors, 226 00:12:15,503 --> 00:12:18,272 and so I let them in, made them a cup of tea, 227 00:12:18,272 --> 00:12:19,707 and told them straightaway 228 00:12:19,707 --> 00:12:24,110 that I was about 52 thousand pounds down, 229 00:12:24,378 --> 00:12:25,945 so all hell let loose. 230 00:12:29,717 --> 00:12:31,284 Noel was arrested, 231 00:12:31,585 --> 00:12:33,520 and questioned at a police station. 232 00:12:35,724 --> 00:12:36,657 She was just, "Where was the money, 233 00:12:36,724 --> 00:12:37,624 where was the money?" 234 00:12:38,458 --> 00:12:39,994 And, "What did you do with it?" 235 00:12:40,061 --> 00:12:44,265 You know, it was really aggressive. 236 00:12:44,332 --> 00:12:47,201 Then the Post Office did to Noel what they did 237 00:12:47,201 --> 00:12:48,635 to many other Subpostmasters, 238 00:12:49,837 --> 00:12:52,006 they offered to drop the theft charge 239 00:12:52,006 --> 00:12:55,108 if he agreed to plead guilty to false accounting. 240 00:12:58,379 --> 00:13:01,849 I remember me telling him, "Will he keep me out of jail?" 241 00:13:01,849 --> 00:13:02,882 And he said yes. 242 00:13:10,491 --> 00:13:13,327 But unfortunately when I went into court, 243 00:13:13,561 --> 00:13:16,797 the judge came to his sentencing words, 244 00:13:16,797 --> 00:13:19,999 and he said "Nine months." 245 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,269 And he sort of paused, 246 00:13:23,003 --> 00:13:25,372 and I waited for a suspended sentence, 247 00:13:26,340 --> 00:13:28,942 but he said "Take him down." 248 00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:33,012 I'd been a counsellor, I'd been a Postmaster, 249 00:13:33,747 --> 00:13:36,950 I'd been a postman, and highly thought of. 250 00:13:38,886 --> 00:13:42,156 All of a sudden it was all taken away from me, 251 00:13:42,156 --> 00:13:44,257 like taking a mat from under your feet, 252 00:13:44,257 --> 00:13:44,857 if you like. 253 00:13:47,328 --> 00:13:49,362 It was bloody horrible. 254 00:14:07,682 --> 00:14:10,518 My journalistic life has been dominated by this. 255 00:14:10,518 --> 00:14:12,420 I mean, it's the biggest story I've worked on. 256 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:14,488 It's probably the biggest story I'll ever work on. 257 00:14:17,058 --> 00:14:20,860 In 2009, the story hadn't hit the press yet. 258 00:14:21,528 --> 00:14:24,031 Social media was in its infancy. 259 00:14:24,098 --> 00:14:27,801 Even though many Subpostmasters were being prosecuted, 260 00:14:28,269 --> 00:14:31,204 each one of them thought they were the only one. 261 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,009 But that was about to change. 262 00:14:35,710 --> 00:14:39,480 This particular article began because we were 263 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,150 contacted by a Subpostmaster about his problems. 264 00:14:43,217 --> 00:14:45,319 Often when you get contacted by a single person, 265 00:14:45,319 --> 00:14:46,888 it's very hard to stand up a story. 266 00:14:46,888 --> 00:14:50,057 But one of my former colleagues, an alarm bell rang in his head, 267 00:14:50,057 --> 00:14:51,525 and he thought, "I've heard this before." 268 00:14:51,792 --> 00:14:53,994 And I think it was four years earlier, 269 00:14:53,994 --> 00:14:55,929 he'd been contacted by Alan Bates, 270 00:14:56,397 --> 00:14:58,199 who'd had the same problems. 271 00:14:58,199 --> 00:15:00,100 Then they started to build up a picture. 272 00:15:00,334 --> 00:15:01,803 People having the same problems, 273 00:15:01,803 --> 00:15:04,104 people being told the same thing from the Post Office, 274 00:15:04,539 --> 00:15:06,974 which eventually led to them gathering information 275 00:15:07,041 --> 00:15:09,343 about four other Subpostmasters, 276 00:15:09,343 --> 00:15:10,578 and doing this first story. 277 00:15:10,712 --> 00:15:13,113 But we were so worried about legal action, 278 00:15:13,113 --> 00:15:14,882 we didn't actually publish it for a year. 279 00:15:16,084 --> 00:15:19,220 This was the response from the Post Office. 280 00:15:19,921 --> 00:15:23,557 "The Post Office Horizon system is extremely robust. 281 00:15:23,991 --> 00:15:26,093 It is regularly tested and scrutinized, 282 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:31,264 and we do not have any complaints from Subpostmasters." 283 00:15:31,865 --> 00:15:33,200 That was an outright lie. 284 00:15:33,267 --> 00:15:36,170 We knew of seven postmasters who had complained, 285 00:15:36,437 --> 00:15:38,439 and also we know that computers have problems, 286 00:15:38,439 --> 00:15:39,973 especially complex systems. 287 00:15:39,973 --> 00:15:43,476 Suddenly, Subpostmasters that had problems 288 00:15:44,011 --> 00:15:47,147 were seeing the story and contacting each other, 289 00:15:47,147 --> 00:15:49,082 which then started the campaign. 290 00:15:53,821 --> 00:15:56,056 That's the seven from Computer Weekly, 291 00:15:56,490 --> 00:15:59,760 then there's two that came in via our website. 292 00:16:00,761 --> 00:16:02,496 But where are all the others? 293 00:16:02,496 --> 00:16:05,465 So, we thought, "Let's see if we can get people together. 294 00:16:06,166 --> 00:16:08,869 Let's see how big the problem actually is. 295 00:16:08,869 --> 00:16:10,203 Somewhere central. 296 00:16:13,073 --> 00:16:16,009 - Fenny... - Compton. 297 00:16:20,715 --> 00:16:22,749 We didn't know if anyone was gonna turn up, 298 00:16:24,452 --> 00:16:26,352 but slowly but surely people turned up. 299 00:16:29,624 --> 00:16:33,226 We all sat round, in a circle, 300 00:16:33,827 --> 00:16:35,329 telling our stories. 301 00:16:35,329 --> 00:16:38,198 And you almost felt embarrassed 302 00:16:38,198 --> 00:16:39,233 about having to say, 303 00:16:39,233 --> 00:16:41,101 "Oh I'm Jo, and I've been done 304 00:16:41,168 --> 00:16:43,170 for thirty six thousand pounds. 305 00:16:43,170 --> 00:16:45,306 But I realized, like, oh my god, 306 00:16:45,306 --> 00:16:46,807 we're all exactly the same. 307 00:16:47,642 --> 00:16:48,809 That's when the story's 308 00:16:49,677 --> 00:16:52,346 jigsaws started coming together, if you know what I mean. 309 00:16:52,346 --> 00:16:55,615 And we'd all had our lives completely tipped upside down. 310 00:16:56,116 --> 00:16:57,985 People had been losing houses, 311 00:16:57,985 --> 00:16:59,787 cashing in their pensions, 312 00:16:59,787 --> 00:17:02,389 they'd been borrowing money off of relatives, 313 00:17:02,456 --> 00:17:04,257 marriages were splitting up... 314 00:17:05,559 --> 00:17:08,963 We all looked like we'd been in a war, 315 00:17:08,963 --> 00:17:12,632 and just weary with the stress that we'd been put through, 316 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,367 and the shame of it. 317 00:17:15,135 --> 00:17:16,603 It was diabolical. 318 00:17:16,903 --> 00:17:19,239 But that's when we knew 319 00:17:19,239 --> 00:17:21,174 something had to be done about it. 320 00:17:22,276 --> 00:17:25,746 And that's when we picked Alan Bates as chairman. 321 00:17:25,746 --> 00:17:27,848 That was really the start of everything, 322 00:17:27,848 --> 00:17:29,316 and that's where the JFSA, 323 00:17:29,316 --> 00:17:32,318 Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance was born. 324 00:17:34,054 --> 00:17:36,323 It was like a switch got turned, 325 00:17:36,657 --> 00:17:38,424 and the Post Office was the enemy. 326 00:17:40,061 --> 00:17:44,365 They'd gone from this trusted brand to a monster, 327 00:17:44,665 --> 00:17:47,000 and it was like, we are gonna get them. 328 00:18:08,522 --> 00:18:11,726 This is the view I had of him most of the time. 329 00:18:11,859 --> 00:18:14,062 I mean, most mornings this is what he's doing. 330 00:18:14,062 --> 00:18:16,262 And as you can see, he's still in his dressing gown. 331 00:18:19,767 --> 00:18:22,035 For the past twenty years, 332 00:18:22,269 --> 00:18:24,238 Alan and his partner Suzanne 333 00:18:24,238 --> 00:18:27,374 have had their lives dominated by one thing. 334 00:18:27,374 --> 00:18:29,143 The whole of this post office issue 335 00:18:29,143 --> 00:18:34,047 has turned into probably the worst unpaid, full-time 336 00:18:34,047 --> 00:18:35,715 job you can imagine. 337 00:18:38,485 --> 00:18:39,887 I'm gonna do the cat, 338 00:18:40,121 --> 00:18:43,123 and I'll have her sitting down on the carpet here, 339 00:18:43,123 --> 00:18:44,491 looking up at him as if to say, 340 00:18:44,491 --> 00:18:46,260 "Well when are you gonna finish," you know? 341 00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:48,028 "When are you gonna take a break?" 342 00:18:50,397 --> 00:18:53,767 Because you were hearing stories of such distress, 343 00:18:53,833 --> 00:18:55,735 a family in ruin... 344 00:18:56,336 --> 00:18:59,673 So, you couldn't give up working on something like this 345 00:18:59,673 --> 00:19:02,275 because it develops a life of its own. 346 00:19:03,043 --> 00:19:04,244 And it wasn't just me, 347 00:19:04,244 --> 00:19:06,346 other people were chasing their own MPs. 348 00:19:11,052 --> 00:19:13,621 The good thing about being an MP 349 00:19:13,621 --> 00:19:16,189 is if you contact someone 350 00:19:16,189 --> 00:19:18,459 like the chairman of the Post Office 351 00:19:18,459 --> 00:19:20,961 and say I'd like to meet you to talk this through, 352 00:19:20,961 --> 00:19:22,929 they tend to respond. 353 00:19:23,564 --> 00:19:26,133 - Uh, Mrs. Hamilton? - That's me. 354 00:19:26,133 --> 00:19:27,200 James Arbuthnot. 355 00:19:27,267 --> 00:19:28,836 Thank you for coming. 356 00:19:28,836 --> 00:19:31,805 He came out to the shop and met my parents, 357 00:19:32,105 --> 00:19:36,042 and he was just a thoroughly decent guy. 358 00:19:36,343 --> 00:19:39,079 There are two other cases in my constituency alone. 359 00:19:39,279 --> 00:19:41,615 - Wow, really? - It's very odd, isn't it? 360 00:19:41,849 --> 00:19:44,717 I thought, "There's something obviously not right." 361 00:19:45,452 --> 00:19:47,688 And, so, I went to see 362 00:19:47,688 --> 00:19:49,823 the then Chief Executive of the Post Office, 363 00:19:49,889 --> 00:19:51,326 Paula Vennells. 364 00:19:51,392 --> 00:19:55,562 Paula Vennells was hired by the Post Office in 2007. 365 00:19:55,562 --> 00:19:59,766 By 2012, she had worked her way up to the top job, 366 00:19:59,766 --> 00:20:01,802 and used her in-house PR 367 00:20:01,802 --> 00:20:04,070 to highlight her commitment to Subpostmasters. 368 00:20:06,072 --> 00:20:07,341 It was Paula Vennells 369 00:20:07,407 --> 00:20:10,544 who suggested that what we needed 370 00:20:10,544 --> 00:20:15,048 was forensic accountants to go into the allegations. 371 00:20:15,482 --> 00:20:18,618 And we said, "That's exactly what we need." 372 00:20:18,785 --> 00:20:20,787 Who would you recommend? 373 00:20:22,623 --> 00:20:25,559 Ron Warmington runs Second Sight. 374 00:20:26,060 --> 00:20:28,529 I was Head of Investigations for one of the world's 375 00:20:28,529 --> 00:20:29,963 biggest banks for many years. 376 00:20:29,963 --> 00:20:31,298 And now I'm meant to be retired. 377 00:20:31,298 --> 00:20:33,666 The only reason I'm not retired is because of this case. 378 00:20:35,403 --> 00:20:39,206 Ron's investigation was paid for by the Post Office itself. 379 00:20:41,508 --> 00:20:44,712 But obviously we had very serious concerns 380 00:20:44,712 --> 00:20:47,847 that it was going to be a bit of a whitewash. 381 00:20:47,914 --> 00:20:49,149 So Alan and the MPs 382 00:20:49,550 --> 00:20:52,519 brought in their own top forensic accountant. 383 00:20:52,586 --> 00:20:55,621 Kay Linnell flew at me like a tigress. 384 00:20:56,657 --> 00:20:59,660 I don't doubt your paper qualifications, 385 00:20:59,660 --> 00:21:00,961 I have them here in front of me, 386 00:21:00,961 --> 00:21:03,530 but I see nothing to persuade me 387 00:21:03,530 --> 00:21:06,901 that Second Sight is remotely capable 388 00:21:06,901 --> 00:21:09,169 of producing a truly independent report. 389 00:21:09,169 --> 00:21:12,305 Clearly suspecting that either we were hired 390 00:21:12,305 --> 00:21:13,540 to do a whitewash, 391 00:21:13,974 --> 00:21:16,109 or that we'd be hopelessly incompetent. 392 00:21:16,109 --> 00:21:17,543 Probably she thought both. 393 00:21:18,478 --> 00:21:21,548 The involvement with the Post Office 394 00:21:21,548 --> 00:21:24,184 started with Jo Hamilton, my local subpostmistress. 395 00:21:25,419 --> 00:21:27,887 Kay volunteered to help the Subpostmasters. 396 00:21:28,856 --> 00:21:30,990 I had no idea how long it would take, 397 00:21:30,990 --> 00:21:33,060 but I knew we had a room of people 398 00:21:33,060 --> 00:21:36,062 who had lost everything, or were losing everything. 399 00:21:36,296 --> 00:21:38,031 And people were still being prosecuted, 400 00:21:38,031 --> 00:21:39,498 almost on a daily basis. 401 00:21:40,267 --> 00:21:42,603 And I knew we had to do something 402 00:21:42,603 --> 00:21:46,172 to try and stop the tide, or raise the profile. 403 00:21:48,276 --> 00:21:52,045 She clearly was exactly the person we needed. 404 00:21:52,913 --> 00:21:54,848 Having had that meeting with Ron and Ian, 405 00:21:54,848 --> 00:21:56,683 which I suspect they will remember, 406 00:21:57,118 --> 00:21:59,552 I was satisfied they would do an independent job. 407 00:22:05,826 --> 00:22:09,930 Ron's team began their investigation in 2012. 408 00:22:10,097 --> 00:22:12,932 At that time, the Post Office continued 409 00:22:12,932 --> 00:22:15,201 to prosecute Subpostmasters. 410 00:22:19,339 --> 00:22:21,408 Basically, I was told I was going to get 411 00:22:21,408 --> 00:22:22,242 two years in prison. 412 00:22:25,379 --> 00:22:27,982 In the West Midlands, Jess was convinced 413 00:22:27,982 --> 00:22:30,818 a faulty pin pad on her Horizon terminal 414 00:22:30,818 --> 00:22:32,551 had caused the shortfall. 415 00:22:33,988 --> 00:22:36,555 And she pleaded not guilty to theft. 416 00:22:38,125 --> 00:22:41,060 But the case dragged on for three years. 417 00:22:42,729 --> 00:22:45,898 I went to numerous courts, up and down the country. 418 00:22:46,366 --> 00:22:47,835 In Wolverhampton Crown Court, 419 00:22:47,835 --> 00:22:50,604 the judge said, "It was the pin pad." 420 00:22:50,604 --> 00:22:51,905 And the Post Office said 421 00:22:51,905 --> 00:22:54,540 "The pin pad's been taken away for repair." 422 00:22:55,642 --> 00:22:56,777 So, the judge said well, 423 00:22:56,777 --> 00:22:58,778 "If it's gone for repair it was faulty." 424 00:23:00,047 --> 00:23:02,949 That's when it all got thrown out, basically. 425 00:23:04,285 --> 00:23:07,220 By then, the damage had been done. 426 00:23:08,222 --> 00:23:09,890 The stress that we've been through, 427 00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:11,658 the trauma that we've been through, 428 00:23:11,658 --> 00:23:13,726 the lying to, bullied, 429 00:23:14,695 --> 00:23:16,996 it all mounted up, and I ended up in the hospital. 430 00:23:17,764 --> 00:23:19,332 I went to commit suicide. 431 00:23:23,971 --> 00:23:26,172 I even tried to commit suicide in the hospital. 432 00:23:31,611 --> 00:23:34,414 Jess was so ill, the doctors decided 433 00:23:34,414 --> 00:23:37,250 to treat her with electroconvulsive therapy. 434 00:23:40,388 --> 00:23:42,322 All I remember is they used to put this, like, 435 00:23:42,322 --> 00:23:43,756 a helmet type thing on my head. 436 00:23:44,725 --> 00:23:46,593 And the shock waves were going through my brain. 437 00:23:46,593 --> 00:23:48,527 So I had, I think I had fourteen 438 00:23:49,563 --> 00:23:50,496 treatments like that. 439 00:23:53,633 --> 00:23:55,935 After that, I lost all my memory. 440 00:23:58,772 --> 00:24:00,873 I don't remember anything from my childhood. 441 00:24:03,911 --> 00:24:06,279 I couldn't sleep unless I had sleeping tablets. 442 00:24:06,646 --> 00:24:08,514 Put me on numerous medication, 443 00:24:10,584 --> 00:24:13,119 which I'm still on today. 444 00:24:13,553 --> 00:24:15,355 And it's all down to the Post Office. 445 00:24:24,131 --> 00:24:27,701 During Ron's investigation, it became clear 446 00:24:27,701 --> 00:24:31,137 the Post Office had some serious questions to answer. 447 00:24:33,407 --> 00:24:36,676 There were documents which looked extremely suspicious, 448 00:24:36,743 --> 00:24:40,746 very poor investigative processes that were directed 449 00:24:41,381 --> 00:24:45,953 blatantly at simply recovering assets 450 00:24:45,953 --> 00:24:49,589 by trying to get the easiest conviction possible, 451 00:24:50,291 --> 00:24:52,024 which generally was false accounting, 452 00:24:52,024 --> 00:24:54,795 using as a cudgel, 453 00:24:54,795 --> 00:24:57,797 bluffing that they had a theft case. 454 00:25:00,801 --> 00:25:03,503 I'm pretty used to being able to detect crooks. 455 00:25:03,670 --> 00:25:05,172 But when I really dug deeper, 456 00:25:05,172 --> 00:25:07,373 I didn't find any evidence of theft at all. 457 00:25:16,417 --> 00:25:18,951 We didn't know whether the investigation would work, 458 00:25:19,586 --> 00:25:20,821 but the very fact that they 459 00:25:20,821 --> 00:25:22,989 had access to Post Office's data, 460 00:25:23,623 --> 00:25:25,659 erm, seemed quite promising. 461 00:25:25,659 --> 00:25:29,062 And at that time, we did understand 462 00:25:29,062 --> 00:25:32,698 that Post Office did actually want to get to the truth. 463 00:25:34,134 --> 00:25:36,068 I felt we were getting somewhere. 464 00:25:37,671 --> 00:25:39,672 Ha, little did I know 465 00:25:41,108 --> 00:25:43,510 how long the journey was gonna be. 466 00:25:55,889 --> 00:25:57,957 Remote access to the system 467 00:25:58,692 --> 00:26:00,460 was always a huge concern. 468 00:26:01,094 --> 00:26:03,630 And the reason why was it meant 469 00:26:03,630 --> 00:26:06,933 that someone else could be accessing your accounts 470 00:26:07,267 --> 00:26:09,803 on your counter in your Post Office, 471 00:26:09,803 --> 00:26:11,637 and you did not know about it. 472 00:26:16,210 --> 00:26:19,679 When the Post Office rolled out their new computer system, 473 00:26:19,679 --> 00:26:21,781 every subpostmaster's computer 474 00:26:22,015 --> 00:26:24,317 was hard-wired to a central hub. 475 00:26:24,718 --> 00:26:27,453 This was located at the headquarters of the company 476 00:26:27,453 --> 00:26:31,491 who designed and managed Horizon, Fujitsu. 477 00:26:33,927 --> 00:26:36,295 Post Office were quite adamant that no-one else 478 00:26:36,295 --> 00:26:38,431 could ever access the systems 479 00:26:38,431 --> 00:26:40,266 or do anything like this at all. 480 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,969 And that was something that we wanted 481 00:26:42,969 --> 00:26:44,871 Second Sight to prove had occurred, 482 00:26:44,871 --> 00:26:46,105 or how it had occurred. 483 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,515 I went to Fujitsu headquarters with the intention 484 00:26:55,515 --> 00:26:58,885 of helping and looking at the system, 485 00:26:58,952 --> 00:27:01,254 and how we accounted for 486 00:27:01,421 --> 00:27:03,856 bureau de change within branches. 487 00:27:05,725 --> 00:27:08,461 Er, Michael Rudkin to see George Delph. 488 00:27:08,728 --> 00:27:10,430 That was the purpose of my visit. 489 00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:14,634 I arrived, as scheduled, 490 00:27:14,634 --> 00:27:16,036 about ten o'clock in the morning. 491 00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:17,570 - Cheers. - Went into reception. 492 00:27:17,637 --> 00:27:20,373 Mr. Rudkin, George Delph, hi. 493 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,243 Within a few minutes, my chaperone arrived. 494 00:27:23,243 --> 00:27:26,846 I was really taken aback by the number of security doors 495 00:27:26,846 --> 00:27:27,947 that we had to pass through. 496 00:27:30,284 --> 00:27:33,953 I was encouraged to enter into the boiler room by my chaperone. 497 00:27:34,687 --> 00:27:36,522 And in doing so, I then recognized 498 00:27:36,790 --> 00:27:38,225 to the right-hand side of me, 499 00:27:38,225 --> 00:27:42,162 there's two Horizon terminals on this workbench. 500 00:27:42,162 --> 00:27:44,263 One of the guys not happy with my presence 501 00:27:44,263 --> 00:27:45,531 gets up and walks out. 502 00:27:46,099 --> 00:27:47,433 My chaperone said, 503 00:27:47,867 --> 00:27:50,536 "This is my covert operations team 504 00:27:50,536 --> 00:27:52,306 and my covert operations room." 505 00:27:52,473 --> 00:27:55,642 He proceeded to enter into this particular account, 506 00:27:55,642 --> 00:27:58,912 and he started, er, altering figures, 507 00:27:59,012 --> 00:28:01,147 which I said to him, "Is this real-time?" 508 00:28:01,681 --> 00:28:03,150 He says, "Look, I'll just prove it." 509 00:28:03,150 --> 00:28:04,784 He says, "I'll alter the Euro figures 510 00:28:04,784 --> 00:28:06,152 in this branch's accounts." 511 00:28:06,953 --> 00:28:09,688 You're inside some subpostmaster's Horizon, 512 00:28:10,590 --> 00:28:11,491 and he doesn't know? 513 00:28:11,724 --> 00:28:13,226 In total disbelief, I said, 514 00:28:13,594 --> 00:28:16,696 "Are you sure you can alter these figures in real time?" 515 00:28:17,130 --> 00:28:17,997 And he said, "Yes." 516 00:28:18,731 --> 00:28:20,633 I said, "Well, for your information..." 517 00:28:21,502 --> 00:28:23,336 I've been telling my members for years, 518 00:28:23,837 --> 00:28:26,106 no-one else has access to their branch accounts. 519 00:28:26,340 --> 00:28:29,775 "And here you are proving that you've got remote access." 520 00:28:30,510 --> 00:28:32,279 At which there was an immediate 521 00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:34,213 look of disdain on his face, 522 00:28:34,213 --> 00:28:35,582 and then ushered me out, 523 00:28:35,683 --> 00:28:38,150 and more or less thrown out as though I was... 524 00:28:38,150 --> 00:28:40,620 ..a thief. 525 00:28:42,222 --> 00:28:45,658 I said to Michael, "Your story is really, really interesting. 526 00:28:46,259 --> 00:28:49,029 But Post Office, of course, 527 00:28:49,029 --> 00:28:51,998 will ask for evidence to support what you're saying. 528 00:28:52,232 --> 00:28:54,133 So we need to find the visitors book." 529 00:28:55,369 --> 00:28:58,237 The so-called visitors book that I signed, 530 00:28:58,972 --> 00:29:02,608 ironically, is the only visitors book that's disappeared. 531 00:29:03,677 --> 00:29:06,647 "So, Michael, you need to have a look 532 00:29:06,647 --> 00:29:09,348 through your email records to see if you can find 533 00:29:09,615 --> 00:29:11,351 the invitation that came through to you, 534 00:29:11,351 --> 00:29:14,787 so get to it, Michael, I need it, and I need it quickly. 535 00:29:14,787 --> 00:29:16,890 I had a telephone conversation with Ron. 536 00:29:16,890 --> 00:29:18,324 I said, "I have the evidence. 537 00:29:18,825 --> 00:29:20,660 Are you in front of your computer?" 538 00:29:20,660 --> 00:29:21,661 He said, "Yes." 539 00:29:22,829 --> 00:29:24,763 I said, "Well, I'm pressing send now." I did. 540 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,401 The reply came back. 541 00:29:29,102 --> 00:29:33,573 "Oh, my effing good God. 542 00:29:33,940 --> 00:29:37,343 They are now going to become a hostage to fortune." 543 00:29:39,479 --> 00:29:42,349 The day after Michael's visit to Fujitsu, 544 00:29:42,616 --> 00:29:45,419 Post Office officials paid him a visit. 545 00:29:45,552 --> 00:29:47,653 What come as an even greater shock 546 00:29:48,355 --> 00:29:49,955 was the orders that then came into my bedroom at 8:30 547 00:29:51,358 --> 00:29:55,095 that following morning, sat on the edge of my bed, and said, 548 00:29:55,095 --> 00:29:58,231 "You've got a £44,000 shortage in your office." 549 00:29:58,331 --> 00:30:00,233 My wife, Susan, who's managing the branch, 550 00:30:00,233 --> 00:30:01,601 ended up being convicted 551 00:30:01,701 --> 00:30:04,271 with 300 hours community service, 552 00:30:04,471 --> 00:30:06,906 electronically tagged for six months. 553 00:30:06,906 --> 00:30:09,675 She had to live through and endure that experience. 554 00:30:17,217 --> 00:30:21,987 In 2013, Second Sight published their initial findings 555 00:30:27,694 --> 00:30:30,430 With Ron's report in the public domain, 556 00:30:30,430 --> 00:30:33,800 Post Office management changed their approach. 557 00:30:35,969 --> 00:30:38,204 Paula Vennells rang me up to say, 558 00:30:38,204 --> 00:30:41,874 "What we're proposing is a mediation scheme 559 00:30:42,075 --> 00:30:46,012 between the subpostmasters and the Post Office, 560 00:30:46,012 --> 00:30:49,616 with a senior judge as the mediator. 561 00:30:49,616 --> 00:30:53,052 And that will be able to get to the bottom of all these cases." 562 00:30:53,420 --> 00:30:56,489 And I said, "Well, that sounds right and proper. 563 00:30:56,489 --> 00:30:57,956 Let's go ahead with that." 564 00:31:03,229 --> 00:31:07,299 Alan put forward 150 cases for the new scheme. 565 00:31:12,405 --> 00:31:15,073 The whole process was only meant to take 566 00:31:15,574 --> 00:31:17,277 X amount of months in total. 567 00:31:17,344 --> 00:31:19,279 It was running into years. 568 00:31:19,479 --> 00:31:21,047 You're supposed to go to mediation 569 00:31:21,047 --> 00:31:22,649 with a willingness to settle, 570 00:31:22,649 --> 00:31:24,851 but it appeared that the Post Office was sending 571 00:31:24,851 --> 00:31:26,919 two lawyers who turned up and said, 572 00:31:27,187 --> 00:31:28,688 "You're out of time to make a claim, 573 00:31:28,688 --> 00:31:30,023 it's over six years old, forge 574 00:31:30,624 --> 00:31:33,159 I think they were actually uncovering the real truth 575 00:31:33,159 --> 00:31:34,294 of what had been going on, 576 00:31:34,294 --> 00:31:36,195 and they didn't want to come forward with it. 577 00:31:40,467 --> 00:31:44,170 The Post Office has spent public money on a mediation scheme 578 00:31:44,170 --> 00:31:47,573 which they themselves have set out to sabotage. 579 00:31:48,074 --> 00:31:50,310 In Westminster, James Arbuthnot 580 00:31:50,510 --> 00:31:53,646 was working hard to keep the case in the public eye. 581 00:31:54,247 --> 00:31:57,783 And they've broken their word to Members of Parliament 582 00:31:58,117 --> 00:32:01,487 in so many different respects that it is frankly bewildering. 583 00:32:05,392 --> 00:32:07,060 If you could just introduce yourself 584 00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:08,528 for voice transcription purposes. 585 00:32:08,595 --> 00:32:11,064 Paula Vennells, Chief Executive of Post Office. 586 00:32:11,331 --> 00:32:14,133 And then Paula was called in to face MPs. 587 00:32:14,868 --> 00:32:19,305 People do not like appearing in front of select committees 588 00:32:19,372 --> 00:32:22,475 because the select committee may get to the bottom of things 589 00:32:22,475 --> 00:32:24,844 that the witnesses may prefer that they didn't. 590 00:32:25,979 --> 00:32:28,981 Before the hearing, Paula Vennells asked colleagues 591 00:32:28,981 --> 00:32:31,450 to help clarify what she should say. 592 00:32:31,450 --> 00:32:33,452 Here we go. 593 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,155 A copy of her email has since come to light. 594 00:32:38,391 --> 00:32:39,792 "Urgent: Accessing Horizon." 595 00:32:40,159 --> 00:32:43,463 "Dear both, your help, please, in prep for the SC, 596 00:32:43,463 --> 00:32:44,563 the select committee hearing." 597 00:32:46,433 --> 00:32:49,134 "Is it possible to access the system remotely?" 598 00:32:49,468 --> 00:32:50,569 "We are told it is." 599 00:32:51,337 --> 00:32:53,973 That's obviously the question she's being warned 600 00:32:53,973 --> 00:32:55,040 she's gonna have to answer. 601 00:32:56,209 --> 00:32:57,576 "What is the true answer?" 602 00:32:58,077 --> 00:33:00,979 "I hope it is that we know this is not possible 603 00:33:01,881 --> 00:33:04,015 and that we are able to explain why that is." 604 00:33:05,118 --> 00:33:08,520 "I need to say no, it is not possible 605 00:33:09,289 --> 00:33:12,257 and that we are sure of this because of xxx." 606 00:33:13,993 --> 00:33:15,995 This is a system that works well, 607 00:33:16,129 --> 00:33:18,264 and it works well for the vast majority of people. 608 00:33:18,264 --> 00:33:21,701 For those it doesn't work for, we are doing our utmost. 609 00:33:21,701 --> 00:33:24,771 I've got Nadhim, and then I've got Brian... 610 00:33:24,838 --> 00:33:29,108 The MPs wanted to know why the Post Office had been obstructive 611 00:33:29,108 --> 00:33:31,311 during Second Sight's investigation. 612 00:33:31,311 --> 00:33:33,480 Paula, why don't you give those files over? 613 00:33:33,546 --> 00:33:35,514 - What's the problem? - Erm, so, I... 614 00:33:36,215 --> 00:33:39,385 I think the point I want to pick up first, if I may... 615 00:33:39,385 --> 00:33:41,120 No, just... No, answer my question first. 616 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:41,453 Why won't you give Ian Henderson those files? Why? 617 00:33:43,890 --> 00:33:46,292 We have... As far as I'm aware, Mr. Zahawi, 618 00:33:46,526 --> 00:33:48,361 we have shared whatever information 619 00:33:48,361 --> 00:33:49,496 was appropriate on every single-- 620 00:33:49,562 --> 00:33:50,664 That's not what Ian Henderson's saying. 621 00:33:50,664 --> 00:33:53,366 It is the first time personally I have heard that. 622 00:33:53,633 --> 00:33:54,634 You're the head of the organization. 623 00:33:54,835 --> 00:33:56,670 Will you provide it, yes or no? Simple answer. 624 00:33:56,937 --> 00:33:59,172 I'm not prepared, on behalf of the Post Office... 625 00:33:59,238 --> 00:34:00,306 Right, I've got my answer, so you won't... 626 00:34:00,373 --> 00:34:01,907 No, you haven't got your answer, 627 00:34:01,907 --> 00:34:03,276 you haven't heard a yes or no. 628 00:34:03,276 --> 00:34:05,512 I'm simply saying that at the moment, 629 00:34:05,512 --> 00:34:07,313 I'm not able to answer your question. 630 00:34:07,714 --> 00:34:10,283 It was pointed out to her time after time 631 00:34:10,283 --> 00:34:13,285 that she was in charge and the decisions were with her. 632 00:34:13,886 --> 00:34:17,990 But it just seemed to wash over her. 633 00:34:18,191 --> 00:34:19,892 Well, this sounds like a shambles to me. 634 00:34:19,892 --> 00:34:20,860 You came in here, opened by saying 635 00:34:20,926 --> 00:34:22,962 the system's working beautifully. 636 00:34:23,296 --> 00:34:24,964 You now realize why you're in front of the committee, 637 00:34:24,964 --> 00:34:25,565 is that right? 638 00:34:25,565 --> 00:34:28,434 The system... The reason... Ian said... 639 00:34:28,501 --> 00:34:32,338 I just couldn't understand why, even after that, 640 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,342 she didn't take things on board and actually be honest 641 00:34:36,342 --> 00:34:38,211 and own up and actually try and resolve it, 642 00:34:38,211 --> 00:34:40,246 which she should've done far earlier. 643 00:34:40,346 --> 00:34:42,581 I'm very sorry that I can't answer that, it's.. 644 00:34:44,218 --> 00:34:47,619 When I listened to the evidence from Paula Vennells 645 00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:53,859 I realized what we were gonna be up against, 646 00:34:54,093 --> 00:34:56,029 and just what it looks like. 647 00:34:56,029 --> 00:34:58,231 I have been told that we're providing information. 648 00:34:58,231 --> 00:35:02,668 It looks like it's a massive corporate cover-up. 649 00:35:04,938 --> 00:35:08,140 Then, a few weeks after the select committee hearing, 650 00:35:08,575 --> 00:35:11,277 the Post Office changed their approach again. 651 00:35:11,344 --> 00:35:14,713 Post Office dynamited the mediation working group 652 00:35:15,848 --> 00:35:17,283 and fired everybody. 653 00:35:17,350 --> 00:35:20,286 I think at that stage, 654 00:35:20,453 --> 00:35:22,521 she decided it was preferable 655 00:35:23,222 --> 00:35:25,591 to cover up the injustice 656 00:35:26,359 --> 00:35:29,695 and to allow these subpostmasters 657 00:35:30,662 --> 00:35:31,797 to go to the wall. 658 00:35:32,732 --> 00:35:33,832 And I think that's shocking. 659 00:35:38,404 --> 00:35:41,139 We were growing information, we were growing data. 660 00:35:43,242 --> 00:35:45,144 For more than ten years, 661 00:35:45,144 --> 00:35:47,647 Alan Bates and his team of campaigners 662 00:35:47,647 --> 00:35:51,016 had been carefully gathering evidence bit by bit 663 00:35:51,083 --> 00:35:52,819 against the Post Office. 664 00:35:52,986 --> 00:35:54,788 Because we had those documents, 665 00:35:54,854 --> 00:35:59,691 there was a possibility then of starting some sort of litigation 666 00:36:00,259 --> 00:36:02,629 in the civil courts against the Post Office. 667 00:36:02,896 --> 00:36:05,931 If we could find a legal firm 668 00:36:06,466 --> 00:36:08,100 to take it on board for us. 669 00:36:10,737 --> 00:36:11,805 The headlines this morning. 670 00:36:12,105 --> 00:36:14,641 A report has criticized the Post Office for sacking 671 00:36:14,641 --> 00:36:16,576 or prosecuting subpostmasters 672 00:36:16,576 --> 00:36:19,378 without establishing the cause of cash shortfalls 673 00:36:19,378 --> 00:36:20,179 at their branches. 674 00:36:20,847 --> 00:36:24,350 Driving into work, normal day, into Leeds, 675 00:36:24,350 --> 00:36:27,954 and I heard a BBC radio programme. 676 00:36:28,021 --> 00:36:30,622 If the cash recorded by the computer system 677 00:36:30,889 --> 00:36:33,326 does not match up with the cash 678 00:36:33,326 --> 00:36:35,060 that's actually held at the branch 679 00:36:35,060 --> 00:36:37,030 then they are held responsible for it. 680 00:36:37,030 --> 00:36:38,731 I thought to myself, there may be something 681 00:36:38,832 --> 00:36:40,167 we could do about this to help, 682 00:36:40,167 --> 00:36:43,435 because it didn't sound right, so I contacted Alan Bates. 683 00:36:44,203 --> 00:36:45,772 I explained the case to him, 684 00:36:45,772 --> 00:36:47,706 I showed him the type of evidence 685 00:36:47,706 --> 00:36:49,008 that we had at the time. 686 00:36:49,408 --> 00:36:51,577 And I explained we had no money at all, 687 00:36:51,577 --> 00:36:53,680 but we felt there was a case there. 688 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,549 So I needed to weigh up whether or not 689 00:36:56,549 --> 00:36:59,986 we could raise the necessary litigation funding. 690 00:37:00,086 --> 00:37:04,891 There are specialist funders who are willing to take the risk, 691 00:37:04,891 --> 00:37:06,926 but only if there are enough of you. 692 00:37:06,993 --> 00:37:09,462 Because otherwise we knew that Post Office 693 00:37:09,462 --> 00:37:12,064 would outspend us and we would lose. 694 00:37:12,064 --> 00:37:13,566 The only way that we were 695 00:37:13,666 --> 00:37:14,834 gonna be able to break through this 696 00:37:14,834 --> 00:37:18,437 and uncover it was a full-scale group action. 697 00:37:18,671 --> 00:37:20,907 Group litigation orders are used 698 00:37:20,907 --> 00:37:23,175 when you've got very poor claimants 699 00:37:23,710 --> 00:37:26,379 and they've got enough similarity in their cases 700 00:37:26,379 --> 00:37:28,648 that you can literally fund one case 701 00:37:28,648 --> 00:37:31,250 and solve a lot of people's problems. 702 00:37:31,250 --> 00:37:33,153 It was the only way, and to do that, 703 00:37:33,153 --> 00:37:36,455 we needed a much larger group of postmasters. 704 00:37:36,455 --> 00:37:37,689 How many would you need? 705 00:37:38,624 --> 00:37:39,725 At least 500. 706 00:37:45,832 --> 00:37:48,534 The meeting kicked off a nationwide search 707 00:37:48,601 --> 00:37:50,135 to find subpostmasters 708 00:37:50,436 --> 00:37:52,337 who'd had problems with Horizon. 709 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,010 Eventually, 555 people pursued 710 00:37:57,010 --> 00:37:59,879 a group litigation order against the Post Office. 711 00:38:00,514 --> 00:38:04,550 The case against Post Office was very much to expose 712 00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:07,653 the way individuals had been mistreated in there. 713 00:38:07,854 --> 00:38:11,791 The lack of information that was available from Post Office. 714 00:38:12,292 --> 00:38:15,294 The flaws in the system they'd never owned up to. 715 00:38:15,628 --> 00:38:17,730 The denial that had happened, 716 00:38:17,797 --> 00:38:19,664 the bullying that had gone on. 717 00:38:20,266 --> 00:38:21,767 The abuse of individuals, 718 00:38:22,334 --> 00:38:25,104 the way that they'd raided people's houses. 719 00:38:25,438 --> 00:38:27,473 The way they'd been so high-handed, 720 00:38:27,473 --> 00:38:29,742 God almighty, didn't give a damn, 721 00:38:29,842 --> 00:38:32,311 they're Post Office and they can do what they want-- 722 00:38:32,511 --> 00:38:34,280 that's what we wanted exposing. 723 00:38:35,648 --> 00:38:38,484 Alan had found the lawyers, they'd got the funding. 724 00:38:38,651 --> 00:38:39,551 And we were on. 725 00:38:42,155 --> 00:38:45,090 Alan and the Justice For Subpostmasters Alliance 726 00:38:45,524 --> 00:38:48,093 finally took the Post Office to court 727 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,528 to seek financial redress. 728 00:38:52,632 --> 00:38:55,167 Well, I went four days after my mum died. 729 00:38:56,669 --> 00:39:00,005 She'd said to me, "Please don't stop." 730 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:01,807 And she said, "I'll be with you. 731 00:39:03,910 --> 00:39:05,611 Wherever you are, I'll be with you." 732 00:39:05,912 --> 00:39:08,947 And, erm, yeah, four days later, I went to court. 733 00:39:11,918 --> 00:39:15,588 Among Alan's group of 555 subpostmasters 734 00:39:16,122 --> 00:39:20,059 were people whose lives had been devastated by the Post Office. 735 00:39:20,059 --> 00:39:23,895 Many had been bankrupted, prosecuted or imprisoned. 736 00:39:25,965 --> 00:39:28,467 Gathering enough evidence at the beginning of the case 737 00:39:28,467 --> 00:39:31,537 was challenging because Post Office had the evidence, 738 00:39:31,938 --> 00:39:34,273 which meant we were having to build the case 739 00:39:34,273 --> 00:39:36,508 with one arm tied behind our backs. 740 00:39:37,643 --> 00:39:39,045 But during the case, 741 00:39:39,312 --> 00:39:42,048 the Post Office was forced to disclose evidence 742 00:39:42,048 --> 00:39:44,083 they'd always claimed was irrelevant. 743 00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:47,252 So, what we've got here is a known-error log. 744 00:39:48,454 --> 00:39:50,823 So what this records is the fact that there were 745 00:39:50,890 --> 00:39:53,759 internet problems, network problems, 746 00:39:53,759 --> 00:39:56,395 which were causing the error in the system, 747 00:39:56,395 --> 00:39:58,731 which in turn were messing up the figures 748 00:39:58,731 --> 00:40:01,034 and causing a financial discrepancy. 749 00:40:01,034 --> 00:40:03,736 This particular example showed that 750 00:40:03,736 --> 00:40:06,138 the transaction that had gone wrong, 751 00:40:06,138 --> 00:40:08,207 needed to be manually corrected. 752 00:40:08,207 --> 00:40:10,143 They had teams and teams of people 753 00:40:10,143 --> 00:40:12,344 doing it all day long, year on year. 754 00:40:12,879 --> 00:40:15,048 Quite often in litigation cases, 755 00:40:15,048 --> 00:40:17,750 in court cases, lawyers will say, 756 00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:20,219 "Well, very rarely are we ever gonna find a smoking gun." 757 00:40:21,053 --> 00:40:22,722 These were smoking guns. 758 00:40:22,722 --> 00:40:26,592 Not just one smoking gun, multiple smoking guns, 759 00:40:26,893 --> 00:40:30,096 which prove to us and prove to the court 760 00:40:30,096 --> 00:40:32,464 that there were multiple problems in the system, 761 00:40:32,598 --> 00:40:35,868 there had been from day one when it was installed. 762 00:40:36,135 --> 00:40:39,371 And that was why Post Office lost the court case. 763 00:40:41,908 --> 00:40:43,876 At the end of the court hearings, 764 00:40:43,976 --> 00:40:48,114 Justice Fraser delivered a 330-page judgement 765 00:40:48,214 --> 00:40:51,383 outlining his findings on the Horizon system. 766 00:40:52,118 --> 00:40:55,020 On the day the judgement was handed down, 767 00:40:55,554 --> 00:40:58,891 our side was totally crammed with people. 768 00:40:58,958 --> 00:41:00,626 The other side of the court, 769 00:41:00,793 --> 00:41:02,261 there were just two people. 770 00:41:02,595 --> 00:41:04,897 They knew what was gonna happen, 771 00:41:04,897 --> 00:41:08,166 they knew which way this judgement was going to land, 772 00:41:08,233 --> 00:41:08,967 and it did. 773 00:41:10,103 --> 00:41:12,904 Mr. Justice Fraser's Horizon Issues judgement: 774 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:16,475 "This approach by the Post Office 775 00:41:16,475 --> 00:41:18,277 has amounted, in reality, 776 00:41:18,343 --> 00:41:21,146 to bare assertions and denials... 777 00:41:21,547 --> 00:41:23,582 ..that ignore what has actually occurred. 778 00:41:23,649 --> 00:41:26,752 It amounts to the 21st-century equivalent 779 00:41:27,086 --> 00:41:29,321 of maintaining that the Earth is flat." 780 00:41:31,256 --> 00:41:32,458 Good old Justice Fraser. 781 00:41:33,259 --> 00:41:36,362 The judge said there seemed to be a culture of secrecy 782 00:41:36,362 --> 00:41:39,698 and excessive confidentially within the Post Office. 783 00:41:41,366 --> 00:41:42,701 We couldn't be more happy 784 00:41:42,701 --> 00:41:44,336 with the judgement from the court. 785 00:41:45,171 --> 00:41:48,140 This has been the result of many years' work 786 00:41:48,507 --> 00:41:52,645 to achieve justice for over 550 people. 787 00:41:52,645 --> 00:41:53,813 It was overwhelming, 788 00:41:53,813 --> 00:41:56,315 it was utterly, utterly damning of Post Office 789 00:41:56,315 --> 00:41:58,050 and it just vindicated everything 790 00:41:58,050 --> 00:41:59,318 we'd ever said about them. 791 00:41:59,551 --> 00:42:03,389 The win was one of the best days of my life. 792 00:42:03,389 --> 00:42:07,025 The civil justice system in the UK had got to the truth. 793 00:42:08,828 --> 00:42:11,998 But the win came at huge financial cost. 794 00:42:12,131 --> 00:42:13,732 Although the Post Office agreed 795 00:42:13,732 --> 00:42:17,402 to pay £57.5 million in damages, 796 00:42:17,770 --> 00:42:21,139 after legal costs, the subpostmasters were left 797 00:42:21,139 --> 00:42:24,109 with around £20,000 each. 798 00:42:26,779 --> 00:42:29,682 But the civil court win did enable the subpostmasters 799 00:42:30,383 --> 00:42:32,818 to appeal their criminal convictions. 800 00:42:32,818 --> 00:42:34,753 These subpostmasters have not only 801 00:42:34,820 --> 00:42:36,222 had their convictions quashed, 802 00:42:36,456 --> 00:42:39,725 but they've been exonerated by the Court of Appeal. 803 00:42:42,761 --> 00:42:45,063 I'm not a criminal any more, I'm a victim. 804 00:42:45,130 --> 00:42:46,565 Oh my god! 805 00:42:47,166 --> 00:42:51,669 To date, 93 out of 736 subpostmasters 806 00:42:53,005 --> 00:42:54,873 have had their names cleared. 807 00:42:58,378 --> 00:43:02,481 The sun was shining, and I was free. 808 00:43:05,517 --> 00:43:07,887 - How do you feel now? - Very happy. 809 00:43:07,953 --> 00:43:10,455 At last, you could go home 810 00:43:10,455 --> 00:43:12,257 and tell people you were innocent. 811 00:43:15,728 --> 00:43:17,962 That emotion will... 812 00:43:18,898 --> 00:43:21,167 It was like lifting that big rucksack 813 00:43:21,234 --> 00:43:23,802 with rocks on your back for years, 814 00:43:23,802 --> 00:43:25,271 and getting rid of it. 815 00:43:25,338 --> 00:43:28,273 - Thank you, all, - Let him through, please. 816 00:43:29,775 --> 00:43:32,011 You know, you could just throw it away. 817 00:43:32,011 --> 00:43:35,214 It was such a big, big relief, 818 00:43:35,281 --> 00:43:39,617 'cause the Post Office did a lot of damage, really, to him. 819 00:43:43,189 --> 00:43:45,656 It's something that we couldn't fathom 820 00:43:46,725 --> 00:43:48,127 that was gonna happen to him. 821 00:43:48,728 --> 00:43:51,162 I didn't have this many people at my wedding. 822 00:43:52,164 --> 00:43:55,133 But I'm seeing my dad coming back now, 823 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:56,769 you know, bit by bit. 824 00:43:57,203 --> 00:43:59,504 So we are really grateful, 825 00:43:59,972 --> 00:44:02,474 you know, that we've had this chance to see that, 826 00:44:02,474 --> 00:44:03,975 'cause not many have. 827 00:44:03,975 --> 00:44:05,477 Yay! 828 00:44:05,477 --> 00:44:07,813 Well done, well done. 829 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,981 We've made it. 830 00:44:12,285 --> 00:44:13,818 God's got me through everything. 831 00:44:15,154 --> 00:44:17,322 I just thought I wanted to bring you here 832 00:44:17,322 --> 00:44:18,390 to show you as well. 833 00:44:22,728 --> 00:44:24,095 I've built myself up. 834 00:44:24,496 --> 00:44:25,830 I've made myself stronger, 835 00:44:26,765 --> 00:44:28,866 and I want everybody to know 836 00:44:29,668 --> 00:44:31,570 that I wasn't a thief. 837 00:44:32,204 --> 00:44:34,439 I didn't rob the Post Office, as they say. 838 00:44:35,007 --> 00:44:37,409 That's what matters to me, my name cleared. 839 00:44:39,745 --> 00:44:41,147 And it needs to be told. 840 00:44:41,447 --> 00:44:43,148 Our stories do need to be out there. 841 00:44:45,517 --> 00:44:46,585 It's not just... 842 00:44:47,619 --> 00:44:50,255 a little group of people, it's hundreds. 843 00:44:52,391 --> 00:44:54,426 Hundreds of people have been through this. 844 00:45:02,868 --> 00:45:04,036 Everybody ready? 845 00:45:04,036 --> 00:45:06,605 A statutory inquiry has been set up 846 00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:09,174 to find out what went wrong. 847 00:45:09,908 --> 00:45:11,777 I know who should be held to account. 848 00:45:11,844 --> 00:45:16,115 I mean, it's the people who have had 849 00:45:16,115 --> 00:45:19,818 a very cushy lifestyle 850 00:45:19,818 --> 00:45:23,922 on vast quantities of money 851 00:45:24,190 --> 00:45:28,194 whilst they've made hundreds, if not thousands, 852 00:45:28,194 --> 00:45:30,662 of individuals suffer 853 00:45:31,130 --> 00:45:35,434 whilst knowing the real truth of what's been going on 854 00:45:35,434 --> 00:45:39,472 and denying the truth to all these individuals. 855 00:45:39,472 --> 00:45:42,708 Those are the people who should be held responsible.