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[operator] 9-1-1, what's the location of your emergency?
[James] Okay, I'm... I'm not really sure.
I'm at my house. There's an active shooter situation
going on at the high school. My son goes to the high school
I have a missing gun at my house.
I think my son took the gun.
I don't know if it's him, I don't know what's going on.
I am really freaking out.
[news reporter] It's a groundbreaking case
that's resulted in four counts of involuntary
manslaughter charges
against both James and Jennifer Crumbley.
Authorities say the shooter used a handgun.
His father had bought just days earlier.
[news reporter 2] The first parents in America
to be charged in a school shooting.
[news reporter 3] Parents of the shooter
at Oxford High School who killed four students
and wounded others in November 2021.
[Karen] There are very rare circumstances
where gross negligence rises
to the level where you can be charged with a serious crime.
This is one of them.
[reporter 1] Crumbley's defense
has said a conviction
would set a dangerous precedent
for unwitting parents.
[Marc] This case is very different.
This is about parents
who largely ignored their son
neglected his cries for help, and then bought him a gun.
[Karen] It really was just common sense.
You don't get to walk away from that. You just don't.
That's a criminal act.
My name is Jennifer Crumbley, and I'm the defendant.
I felt as a family where we were
the three of us were really close.
We did a lot of things together.
I joined the ski patrol because the family can ski free.
Also to help people out.
So I got him into skiing and he would come out
with me on my patrol shifts.
We did a lot of board games.
Every year around Thanksgiving
we would go cut a Christmas tree down.
Halloween, we grew our own pumpkins.
So we always carved our own pumpkins
and had a whole bunch put around the house.
The Crumbley's were a middle-class family.
They vacationed together. They worked.
[Jennifer ] I was a marketing director
at a real estate acquisition company.
My husband had a hard time holding down a job.
He was doing DoorDash.
[Mariell] James was a great father.
He spent time with his son.
No one is perfect, but James did the best he could.
They spent a lot of time together
especially during COVID.
Even the morning of the shooting James drove his son to school
which was not abnormal. That happened a lot.
There was a couple of times where Ethan
had expressed anxiety.
Anxiety about what he was going to do after high school.
But not to a level where I felt he needed to go
see a psychiatrist or a mental health professional.
As a parent, you spend your whole life trying
to protect your child from other dangers.
You never would think you have to protect
your child from harming somebody else.
[indistinct police radio chatter]
[female operator] Shooter situation at the Oxford School.
745 North Oxford road.
[indistinct chatter]
[David] The shooting started about 12:50.
He went into a bathroom with a backpack.
[Marc] He went into the handicapped stall
and then he took a 9mm out of his backpack.
He loaded it and he racked it.
[Edward] He comes out of the bathroom
and immediately to his left is a victim.
And he shoots her and then her boyfriend was there.
He put his hand up and shot him.
He then quickly turned his gun to a group of four girls
that were just standing there.
He shot Hana St. Juliana
and she immediately fell to the ground.
And I see someone dressed in dark, oversized clothing.
They have the mask on.
A hat, glasses and a hood.
And I lock eyes with them.
I realize he's raising a gun to me.
[Edward] He then goes around the hallway.
He might have reloaded his gun.
Like if you were at a gun range and practicing.
Ethan then came into closer view and I could tell it was Ethan.
I said, buddy, are you okay? What's going on?
And when he didn't respond to me and he looked away
that's when I knew it was him.
That he was the shooter.
[Edward] And then he continues on down the hallway
and stops at the bathroom where Justin was killed.
[Keegan] I went to the stall, I squatted on the toilet
so he couldn't see my feet.
It was quiet for a second and then I heard a shot.
[woman 1] What did you see when you came out of the stall?
[Keegan] Justin's body in a pool of blood.
Tonight, the scene tragically too familiar.
Armed officers racing into school in lockdown.
Bloodshed. Terrified children running for their lives.
[reporter 2] This time at Oxford High School
some 40 miles north of Detroit.
[reporter 3] Oxford High School shooting in Michigan
that left four students dead and seven others injured.
[Deputy] Deputies responded within five minutes
had the suspect in custody.
He gave the weapon up.
He did have the weapon on him at the time.
It was a semi-automatic handgun.
I am charging the young man
who took the gun into that school and shot
Hana St. Juliana, age 14,
a volleyball player and a basketball player
and her father asked me to tell you that she was
one of the happiest and most joyful kids.
Madisyn Baldwin, age 17,
a talented artist and big sister.
Justin Shilling,
co-captain of the Oxford bowling team and a golfer.
Tate Myre, a junior football player, an honor student.
Mr. Myre asked me when I spoke to him if I had children
and I said that I did and that I would treat this case
like these are my own children.
[Karen] The shooting took place on a Tuesday.
They presented the case the next morning on the shooter.
[David] Then over the period of Wednesday into Thursday
we received more information about
what had happened leading up to the shooting.
We knew that James Crumbley called 911 and told 911 operator
that he thinks his son was the shooter.
[David] We learned that he'd written a journal
and he talked about wanting a gun.
Trying to get his parents to get him a gun.
Everything else we learned just made it worse.
November the 26th, they walked up to the counter
and the dad said, that's the gun I'm going to buy.
And he paid in cash. They bought it.
They waited for the background check to clear.
Eventually did, and they walked out.
His post and I think it was to Instagram,
and it says, "Got my new beauty today."
[Marc] And the next day, the 27th, they're at the range.
He shows his mom how to use it.
There was a teacher who found him researching ammunition.
So then that person left
a voicemail for Jennifer Crumbley.
[School official] I'm calling from Oxford High School.
One of his teachers had sent an email to the office,
said that she was concerned.
He was on his phone looking at bullets.
[Marc] And that's when Jennifer Crumbley
texted her son.
[Marc] He turned in a, a math homework
with a very disturbing drawings and words on it.
[David] The counselor texted the drawings
to the shooter's parents.
[Marc] They called the parents and said
we need you to come in.
At first, Jennifer Crumbley said she can't.
And she said, have you called my husband?
And we now have evidence
to show that they were communicating with each other.
Eventually they both came in.
The school counselor told them that I think
you need to get him services and take him home.
And both Jennifer Crumbley and James Crumbley
said they couldn't do it.
Neither one of them at any point said
that you bought him a gun four days ago.
They're being told by a school counselor,
he's saying this is suicidal ideation.
And they do nothing.
They do less than nothing. They don't look for the gun.
[man over radio] There are requesting medical assistance.
Multiple injuries. Possible...
One of the first questions that Karen asked was
where did he get the gun?
And that's when the focus turned to the parents.
[Karen] As soon as I heard that they were
called to the school that day
the messages about, LOL, don't get caught
those were very, very concerning to me.
And so when they presented the case on the shooter
I addressed that.
What about the parents?
[reporter 4] Oakland County Prosecutor, Karen McDonald
announcing charges against the parents of the 15-year-old
charged in this week's deadly school shooting.
The facts of this case are so egregious.
The notion that a parent could read those words
and also know that their son had access to a deadly weapon
that they gave him
is unconscionable and I think it's criminal.
Thank you.
[Marc] We were in communications with the sheriff's office
and then they went to go pick 'em up
and they couldn't find 'em.
So that's when things really blew up.
That was national news that whole night.
Do you know where the shooter's parents are right now?
I do not. I'm...
I'm being briefed on any kind of update but no, I don't.
[reporter 5] They were scheduled to surrender to authorities
at 2:00 p.m. local time Friday, but did not appear.
[reporter 6] US Marshals late Friday night
put up wanted posters.
We're now offering a $10,000 reward.
[David] That really wound up
becoming a real sideshow.
[reporter 7] Authorities say the couple
skipped their arraignment
sparking a manhunt.
[Karen] They went on a run and drove 40 miles south
downtown Detroit
at a friend's art studio in a warehouse.
[operator 2] 911, what is the address of the emergency?
[informer] The parents of the shooter
that are running away... they're here.
It's their car and the woman is here.
[David] And I believe it was after midnight
when the parents were captured hiding out in Detroit.
[officer] On your stomach.
Get on your fucking stomach.
[officer 1] We have, in fact, taken into custody
without incident James and Jennifer Crumbley,
the fugitives involved in the Oxford incident.
[Karen] Hey, um...
Hey, Kate?
Kate? I really need, like, quiet until I get through this brief.
[assistant] Would you run across from Marc...
[Karen] Everyone thinks that being a prosecutor is exciting
because, you know, they see the shows.
But the thing that really intrigued me about it was
standing up for people who were vulnerable
and that couldn't represent or advocate for themselves,
who had been victims of crime.
I was a public school teacher for three years
and then decided to pursue a law degree.
I was an assistant prosecutor in this very building
and I would walk in here every day, about 25 years ago
never imagining someday I'd be walking in
with my name on the door.
[man 2] Good luck, sir. Let me know if anything.
-We're gonna let David, um... -[man 2] Sorry.
We're gonna let David do the work
and then you can film Marc and I.
Did somebody leave this on your desk?
Because, like, what's the message here?
Did you get one of these?
It's like a stress ball.
I've been an attorney for 16 years.
I've been here for 15.
And I went to law school to be a prosecutor.
[David] You're coming in at a time when...
Karen and I have been in office now for about 18 months.
When I joined the office
I spent a lot of time thinking about
the problems we might encounter.
And it never occurred to me
that one of them would be a school shooting.
[Marc] I do remember vividly at one point
we were all at the media room, and Karen said
I want everyone to go around the room
to give their opinion.
But I'm telling you right now, we're charging the parents.
And then she walked out.
[interviewer 1] Did you even know... that nothing like that
had ever been done before?
No. No.
But certainly understood the extraordinary set of facts.
I know, I know we have a legal duty as parents
to protect other people from our dangerous kids.
[Karen] Okay. Come here.
It's okay. Sit. Sit, sit, sit.
Josie, chill. It's okay.
Did you read that?
It wasn't earth-shattering.
There'll be more and more of them.
[Karen] Mm-hmm.
The amount of attention and significance of it.
Everyone talking about what a message it sends.
And I know that it does send a message.
I absolutely get that.
Oh, here it is.
It wasn't a motivator.
It really was just common sense.
This is your lunch.
-[Jeffrey] Right. -Do you need it?
-[Jeffrey] Yeah. -Will you eat it? Okay.
I actually do make him a salad.
And about 50% of the time, he leaves it at home.
-So that's highly... -[Jeffrey] We get at least 50%.
It's highly frustrating to me.
Oh, thank you.
Alright. See you. Alright.
Okay. Bye. Love you.
-Okay. Have a good day. -Thank you. You too.
Good girl. Good to see you.
[Karen] There are many issues and motions
that has to be decided by the court.
Then we're also simultaneously prepping for trial,
which is a giant task.
I think it's powerful when he takes the stance in the hallway
and takes aim prior to shooting.
I think that that image for people of his actions
it doesn't have to show what--
Well, actually, I think it's also to show
that he was experienced with a firearm.
And he was experienced with a firearm
because the only thing his parents did with him
took him to a shooting range.
[Marc] We could even splice that video in
with the shooting range video.
-It's the same stance. -Right. Right.
[Karen] He doesn't look like he's some kid with a gun.
-Do you guys think? -[Marc] No.
I think he looks like he knows what he's doing
just doing what he was taught.
[interviewer 1] You've kind of hinted a couple of times
that you have a really strong case...
maybe stronger than people know publicly.
When you get down to the actual elements,
their big defense has been
that they locked their weapon.
[Karen] Well, first they went to the substation
and they were asked at least two or three times
where the weapon was
and they never said it was locked.
[interrogator] That was your gun?
[James] It was hidden in our armoire in the case.
They said it was hidden under some clothing
in an armoire.
And she also lies.
In the back of the police car, she says,
we had no notice.
He was a perfect kid. He's never been in trouble.
He gave us no issues whatsoever.
He's never been in trouble. He's never done anything.
He's never done anything wrong. He's a good kid.
[man 3] Right.
Why are you lying about that?
Why are you trying to cover it up?
And the reason you were trying to cover it up
is because you did know, you did have signs
and you took him to the gun range.
[Karen] I spent almost a whole weekend
reviewing the Facebook messages
between James and Jennifer for the last two years.
And that was not easy, I'll tell you that
because those people are yikes.
The life they lived was just crazy.
Like, just completely completely consumed
with the highs and lows of the relationship
and then, like, the sexting and the really terrible things
they'd, like, video of their sexual acts.
[David] Early on, it came out
that Jennifer Crumbley was having an affair.
We felt it was potentially relevant
because it showed how she was spending her time
instead of taking care of her son.
And you see what her priorities were
how much money they spent on their horses
and these are people who, like, money was tight.
They had serious drinking habits.
And she bought a horse while drunk for $5,000.
They wound up with two horses
so that was a very expensive hobby.
[Karen] It's a very toxic, turbulent relationship
but none of it was about their son.
Like, none of it.
[David] Everyone knows there's a ton of information here.
The text messages alone,
depending on which thread you're looking at
you know, are over 5,000 pages.
And, you know, this is still
months and months out from trial.
Right.
He had in his backpack,
I don't know maybe 50,
60 individual sheets of paper.
Really?
Yes. And, in fact, there's one where it says
he specifically says,
I can't wait till Tuesday.
[Marc] We are all under the assumption
that that math test on the 30th
was his final leakage or plea for help
but it looks like he's been doing it for a while.
[Marc] When you speak with an expert
in the area of mass shootings
and school shootings in particular
there's this concept of leakage.
That's when an individual who's already decided
that they're going to commit this act,
they're basically, they're giving, you know
a window into their plans.
He was manifesting many, many issues for a long time.
There's leakage in text messages to mom and dad,
into his friend.
[Karen] Okay. Tell me what happened at the...
Did you have a meeting or...
[Marc] We talked about the paper from the backpack.
Right, but we don't have any evidence that they saw that.
No, we don't have any evidence that they saw that.
We don't know who saw it.
We don't even know if it was ever turned in.
It bolsters their argument that it was the school
not the parents, because we don't know.
We just don't know who saw it or who didn't.
I mean, I think we need to find out...
We need to find out when these assignments were given
because if he has been making these drawings for weeks
it's just more evidence of had you paid any attention.
[Karen] Okay, just pushing back on that
and being the only one of us here
that has parented teenagers...
[Marc] I know you're not looking through a backpack.
You're never looking through a backpack.
[Marc] I know that. I know that.
[David] There's a belief that a shooter just snaps
and that's just not true.
There are always signs
and there are always things that lead up to it.
There's been a lot of talk about the bird video
which I've seen it now, I guess, twice.
It's not easy to look at.
The defendant, he's got tongs, and he's got the baby bird
and he dips it in water and then he proceeds to take
like, a screwdriver
and try to jam it into the bird's leg
and see if he can tear it off.
While he's doing that, he's got this kind of cooing voice.
He's like, Hey, buddy, you got a boo-boo on your leg?
After he just tried to, like, break the bird's leg off.
And we know he'd done it before when he
when he... decapitated a bird and then put it in a jar
and then took it to school.
In his journal
he talked about wanting to see people suffer.
And, yeah, a lot of people are suffering.
Also, if he feels remorse,
you would think that seeing what he did
would elicit some emotional response.
But it has not.
[Mariell] I think that if somebody
is made out to be a bad parent,
then their behavior can be contorted
into criminal behavior.
Maybe a parent that doesn't see the signs,
a parent that doesn't know
that their child is struggling with something.
I think that
James Crumbley was
made out to be someone that he's not.
The morning of the shooting,
he was a sophomore in high school's father.
By 1:30 that afternoon,
he was the father of a school shooter.
And by December 3rd, he was a monster.
And I think that that, that theme carried
throughout the prosecution in this case.
[♪ soft instrumental music playing]
[woman] All rise. Oakland County Court is now in session.
The Honorable Cheryl A. Matthews presiding.
[judge] Can you both raise your right hand?
Do you swear or affirm the testimony
you're about to give will be the truth,
so help you, God?
[Jennifer and James] Yes
[Shannon] Your Honor, if I may,
the other, the concern we have
is we just found out
you know, two or three days ago,
that, uh, Ethan Crumbley's trial
was moved to January.
-And-- -[judge] Yes, why do I care?
Because we need him as a witness in this trial.
This is not about the defendants
wanting to throw their son under the bus
or make him look bad.
This is about our clients
defending the case.
-[judge] I understand. I do. -Okay.
[Marc] The judge granted our request
and denied their request about the hearsay.
Things about the journal, uh, the text messages
between the shooter and his friend,
those are huge for us.
The thing that really we didn't expect today
at least was that these defendants
want to put their son on the stand
to excuse their own liability.
So, what I would like to do now
is talk about next steps.
She put on the record
they're gonna call their own son.
I just keep thinking
how that might feel to a parent
whose kid was injured or was in that school
or was killed.
Because you know what they're gonna ask now?
The logical question they're gonna ask is,
"Oh, are you gonna give him a deal
to testify against his parents?"
[Kelly] Parents of injured or deceased victims
are gonna love, I wanna hear
from the kid who killed my kid.
I wanna hear what he has...
-I mean, they want... -[David] It's hard to know.
It's hard to know. Some of them may react like,
great, put that [no audio] on the stand, right?
What could he possibly say that would weaken our case?
-[man 5] Right. -[Washington] Well, I just don't
think we can make any assumptions
about how he's gonna testify
once he takes the stand.
He hasn't seen his parents.
He hasn't talked to his parents.
We don't know what that first reaction
is gonna be when he sees his parents
for the first time on the stand
if he were to testify
and how that's gonna look.
So I think it would be
a little presumptuous
for us to say that it won't have
a negative impact. We don't know.
[♪ soft instrumental music playing]
[insects chittering]
[David] Everyone who's raised children
sometimes thinks I am
a less than perfect parent.
They think, you know, on my worst day,
if someone were to capture me,
I might not look that great either.
Am I gonna wind up on trial?
-[David] Hey, Benj. -[Benj] Hey. Good to see you.
-How are you? -[Benj] Doing well.
[David] And what's different about this
is the decisions they made,
both about what not to do,
but what they affirmatively did.
-Eat dinner? -Yeah, I got some pizza.
-Good to see you. -Oh, good to see you.
[David] When I read
the shooter's journal,
you can see that, um,
he believed that he needed help.
Where's your sister?
[David] The opposite of love is not hate.
It's just being ignored.
[interviewer 1] First, I just wanted to ask you...
if you could tell me your first and last name?
[Steve] Steve St. Juliana.
Father of one of the victims.
[interviewer 1] And how would you describe who you are right now?
[exhales] Who am I right now?
Um... I'm a fraction of who I used to be.
This would be the easiest way to say it.
[♪ poignant music playing]
This corner just has some of Hana's favorite things,
stuffed animals and that, that I, that we got for her.
Well, some of the bracelets...
um, that they did for the girls' lacrosse team,
created pictures there of her in...
volleyball and basketball.
[Reina] This will eternally be up
because Hana loved Christmas
and this is a tree that we decorated...
now last year...
right after Thanksgiving, we put it up.
-Yeah. -[Steve] Before the shooting.
[Reina] I don't wanna decorate a tree without her.
So, I like it just the way it is.
Yeah. I mean, there's so many things
that bring back memories
and you just never know how hard
one's gonna hit you versus another.
[Steve] I believe what the prosecutor
is trying to accomplish
in prosecuting the parents
is absolutely the right thing.
My only concern, really,
is that because of that effort,
there isn't much attention
being put onto the school
from the prosecutor's office.
[Ven] What's missing from the criminal end of things
is the accountability of the school.
My name is Ven Johnson.
I am the president of Ven Johnson Law, PLC
and we are the plaintiff attorneys
on behalf of a number of families.
I'm Meghan Gregory. I am the mom of Keegan Gregory
who was in the school that day.
I'm Craig Shilling.
I'm the father of Justin Shilling,
one of the victims from that day.
[Meghan] When the police dropped him off,
they said to us...
"Your son has witnessed things that we've never witnessed
in our 20-some years of being police."
I had reached out to Craig the night of the shooting...
and just, I didn't know Craig,
but I sent him a text and just said...
"I just want you to know
"your son was not alone in the bathroom.
"My son was there.
"And I'm sure there's a lot of questions
and since he's the only one that can answer them,"
you know, "when the time's right, please reach out."
You know, it gave us some comfort
knowing that, you know, he wasn't,
you know, that Justin was there with somebody else.
But, you know...
we're still looking for answers.
Our entire situation
is full accountability.
Who are the ones in positions
to help prevent all of this?
Shooter and parents? Absolutely.
ut so were multiple people in the school district.
And when you hear what was going on
in that home,
I can't feel sorry for the shooter...
but he was in a shit environment...
clearly.
[Meghan] If my child was saying he was seeing things
or hearing voices,
I would immediately be at the hospital with my child.
And I think there's a difference of bad parenting
and gross negligence, right?
I mean, that was neglect on that child.
[interviewer 1] Is there anything that you can tell me
about the loss of your son?
I mean, uh...
it's a very large... hole.
My life is nowadays it's, um...
it's ridiculous.
Families take it pretty hard.
There's a big, huge hole in it.
You know, I'm looking at...
you know, trying to build a bridge
across the hole so I can at least
get to the other side.
But, you know, that's a long process.
[interviewer 1] What does justice look like for you?
My son asked me, "Why does this happen?"
I don't know.
So, this pursuit of justice
is, uh... necessary
to answer that question for him...
not just for me.
But it's also necessary for...
you know, the parents of all of these
and all the other mass shootings.
And, you know, accountability isn't just a word.
I mean, this is... This is life.
[♪ solemn music playing]
[Karen] Every court date that is set,
every piece of news,
every event that goes on, in this case,
it has a serious emotional effect
on so many people.
-[man 6] Good morning. -[woman] Hi.
-Hi, how are you? -[woman] I'm good, how are you?
Oh, I didn't realize you guys were all here.
Nothing like him in the...
[Marc] There's a mask requirement for...
-Oh, there is? -Yeah.
-Do you have one? -Um...
I did not realize that.
-Yeah. -Thank you.
Okay.
[indistinct]
[person 1] I don't think I'm going to the courtroom.
-It's not the courthouse, right? -Yeah.
Okay.
[Paulette] We filed a notice asserting the defense
of insanity on January 27th of 2022.
At this time, we are withdrawing that notice,
and we'll be proceeding with a guilty plea.
Is it true that the firearm that you used
on November the 30th was purchased
on November the 26th, 2021
by your father, James Crumbley?
Yes.
Is it true that you asked him
to buy that firearm?
-Yes. -Is it true
that you gave him your own money
to buy that firearm?
Yes.
Is it true that you picked that gun out to buy?
Yes.
Is it true that on November 30th, 2021,
that 9-mm handgun that you used in Oxford High School
was not kept in a safe or locked container?
Yes, it was not locked.
[Marc] People are satisfied.
[Karen] Their big defense was, "We secured the gun."
Well, their son pled and gave testimony
during that plea that the gun wasn't locked,
and that actually it was his money that they purcha...
It was actually his.
So, they don't have that to argue anymore,
so that's significant.
[man 8] The court understands that there are several
identified victims that may wish to speak in this case.
Could you please tell me your name?
[Reina] Um, I'm Reina St. Juliana.
[man 8] Thank you. And is there a statement you wish
to share with the court this morning?
[Reina] Uh, yes.
The empty seat at the dining table
is the loudest silence I have ever heard.
We were going to be the best duo
on the lacrosse field.
Instead of speaking at her wedding,
I spoke at her funeral.
Instead of fishtailing her hair for a game,
I curled her hair in a casket.
It doesn't matter if I go to her room to steal her clothes,
show her an outfit, or ask for advice.
I am met with silence and darkness.
[♪ poignant music playing]
[man 9] Um, so since we're here
and this is a way to visualize it...
if you look at putting the memorial maples
along the road here...
[Steve] We started, as a family, thinking of different ideas
and also come up with the idea of a garden.
Because that's Hana's name.
Yeah, because Hana's name means flower in Japanese.
[Reina] I mean, I think it really
captures Hana, like...
really well. I think it kind of...
it's gonna bring people together.
And...
I don't know, I guess just looking
at this design,
it, like, makes you happy,
which, I mean, she had a special talent of doing.
It's making everyone happy, so I'm not crying, but...
Yeah, I think it's really nice because...
it's something that like we get to have a say in.
And I guess it really means a lot to everyone.
[Karen] Okay, I really don't remember
the briefing on what's happening.
-[woman] For the march today? -Mm-hmm.
[woman] So there is national day of action
for March for Our Lives across the nation.
-Okay, now I know that. -Yeah.
-I mean, just logistically. -Logistically.
The first part will be speakers.
And then the plan is to start marching
at 10:30 to Oxford.
[Karen] I have not attended any protests
or announcements about gun legislation,
but this march I think is really important
because those are students.
I'm not gonna tell them no.
[all cheering]
My little sister, Hana, was one of the four
killed on November 30th at Oxford High School.
People are killers as much as guns
are enablers for those killings.
My sister died because of the bullets in her body.
I am calling on all of you to take action and demand
that your political representatives,
regardless of party affiliation,
immediately take significant and meaningful action
to make changes necessary to protect us all.
[Karen] It's a responsibility, I feel,
to contribute to
a solution that
weighs heavily on me.
Protect our kids, not our guns.
Thank you.
[all cheering]
[Karen] A lot of people own guns.
I think they have a right to own guns.
I grew up in a house where,
you know, my dad owned guns.
[all chanting] Protect our schools.
[Karen] But owning a gun
and gifting it to a minor
and leaving it in a way that is so accessible
and so grossly negligent.
[all chanting] No more violence! Ban gun violence.
It's just, to me, it's just common sense.
[♪ soft instrumental music playing]
[reporter 8] This morning, opening arguments expected
in an unprecedented trial.
Jennifer Crumbley facing four counts
of involuntary manslaughter for her alleged role
in the 2021 Michigan school shooting
carried out by her son.
-Good morning. -[woman] Good morning.
[Karen] Anybody who does this for a living,
if you're walking in the courtroom,
and you're feeling great,
there is something really wrong.
This is terrible, this is torture.
This is I can't eat, sleep,
I think I might throw up awfulness.
[indistinct chatter]
-Hi. I'm gonna need a minute. -[man 12] Yes.
[Karen] Okay, thank you.
[indistinct chatter]
[Marshal] All rise. The Sixth Circuit Court for the County of Oakland
is now in session.
The Honorable Cheryl A. Matthews presiding.
Morning. You may be seated.
We're all here.
[Shannon] You okay?
[Marc] Good morning, everybody.
I want to introduce you to Hana St. Juliana...
Madisyn Baldwin...
Tate Myre...
and Justin Shilling.
They died on November the 30th of 2021.
We're here because
when Jennifer looked at this drawing...
she didn't look at it the way a stranger would.
She looked at it knowing the context and the origin.
And when someone with that kind of information looks at this...
the unimaginable becomes predictable.
It becomes reasonably foreseeable.
On my way to court today,
I blasted Taylor Swift
to warm up my voice and calm my nerves.
And there was a line in one of her songs
that... summarized what this case is about.
Band-Aids don't stop bullet holes.
And that's what this case is about.
It's about the prosecution attempting
to put a Band-Aid...
on problems that can't be fixed with a Band-Aid.
[♪ instrumental music playing]
[Judge] Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give
is the truth, so help you God?
-Yes, I do. -Yes, ma'am.
[Brett] I do.
This is the 9-millimeter pistol
that was used in the school shooting.
I locked eyes. He didn't hesitate.
[Marc] That's you at the top of the screen?
Yes.
[Kristy] That's when right there
is when I know it's Tate.
[man 14] I'm gonna show you a portion
of that text message thread.
Okay.
Tell us what he wrote.
[Edward] That I'm asking to go to the doctor.
Then he says, my mom laughed when I told her.
What is the moment that you're gonna point to a jury
and say, that's the moment of gross negligence?
The day of the shooting, the moment they're in the office,
with their son, and being shown this drawing that he made,
and they didn't say anything.
"Blood everywhere. The thoughts won't stop."
"Help me."
And then making a decision
once a counselor tells you,
"We think he needs to get some help.
Here are some names."
We can't.
[Marc] Now, describe Jennifer Crumbley's demeanor
when she walked into your office.
She sat down in the chair.
Um...
Felt a little bit distant.
It felt like it was a little bit of an inconvenience to be there.
[Marc] Well, first of all, did you communicate your hope
that they take him home, to the defendant?
I did not specifically ask them to take him home.
I asked them to take him to get help
and therapeutic help.
[Marc] Nothing further. Thank you.
[Shannon] When you saw the gun
drawn on the sheet,
that was not enough to make you believe
that Mrs. Crumbley's son posed a risk to himself
or other students, correct?
[Shawn] I wasn't sure whether he posed a risk to himself,
so that is why I called in the parents.
If I believed that he was a threat to people,
I would have taken different actions.
On November the 30th, when you met with Jennifer Crumbley,
did she tell you her son had texted her
-that he was seeing demons? -No.
That she thought Ethan was depressed?
-No. -[Marc] That she had never once
set an appointment with any mental health professional?
No.
[Marc] Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that
she and her husband gave her son
a SIG Sauer 9-mm handgun
just four days before the shooting?
No.
[Marc] Nothing further.
[David] We're at the end of day three of testimony.
I think it's gone really well for our side,
for the prosecution.
I'm just scanning back through
some of the testimony that I missed, in particular,
looking for Shannon Smith's conduct.
We were all stunned when she gave her opening statement
and said that she was listening to Taylor Swift on the way in
this morning to calm her nerves and warm up her voice.
And it occurred to her that Band-Aids over bullet holes
was what this case was really about.
I hope Taylor Swift heard that, because that's really offensive
um... and bizarre.
[Karen] Um...
Marc, do you wanna, do you wanna go through first
-like, our outline for tomorrow. -[Marc] Yeah.
We have 13 witnesses left.
-We're about halfway through. -[David] Hmm.
How many have you guys done?
[Karen] Eight. We've done eight.
-[David] Eight? -[Karen] Eight witnesses.
That's it.
[Karen] So let's talk about the photos
and how we're going to handle that tomorrow.
[Marc] So there's 55 photos
that there's no agreement on.
[Karen] And we're supposed to start arguing
-about those tomorrow at 8:30. -[Marc] Correct.
[David] There was a big debate at the end of the day today about
um, showing photos of their house which was like
just a complete, like,
wreck because there's like
booze bottles everywhere
and, like, just clothes everywhere.
Shannon Smith is saying, "Well, that's not relevant"
and it makes 'em look bad and
You know, our thing is like, well, we can't change
the condition of the house when the police got there.
The level of chaos and lack of knowledge
and what their kid was doing or caring,
it was critical to this case and the state of his
two, not one bedroom but two
because one got too messy, he just moved to the next
is absolutely relevant.
Alright, cool. See everybody tomorrow at 8:30.
[Adam] At some point after we cleared the classrooms
we were told to go to the old residence
of Jennifer and James Crumbley.
[Marc] So, what are we looking at here
in this photograph, Exhibit 164.
[Adam] I was made aware this was the shooter's bedroom.
There was... targets visible on the wall that had...
what was apparent to be bullet holes in them.
[Marc] Okay I'm going to do another angle here.
That's the same bedroom?
[Adam] Correct.
There was things all over the floor...
things all over the place, really.
[Marc] Now, is this the condition that this gun case
and empty box of ammunition
were found on November 30th, 2021?
[Adam] Correct.
[Marc] And that's on the master bedroom?
[Adam] Yes. Yes.
[David] I talked to Marc before I left
and clearly, he was like, feeling...
Like there's still a lot to do.
[Karen] Okay, I need to call him.
-[Marc] Hello? -[Karen] David said you...
What are you saying about Meloche?
[Marc] Okay, I don't think we should call him.
[Betsey] What were the points that
you were trying to score with Meloche?
Meloche is a, you know, he's the boyfriend, she can't...
Her cross is gonna be limited because she's...
-They don't want it coming ou-- -She's...
She sought to exclude all the evidence of the boyfriend.
[Marc] An attorney like Shannon can feed
on a witness like Brian Meloche.
Yeah, we've given her nothing to eat yet.
This is not a decision that the two of us are gonna make
the night before, we... It is just not...
It's just not, Marc. It's gonna...
It's gonna have to be made with like people
who have slept and eaten dinner
and breakfast and sat around the room.
We're not gonna make this decision right now.
It's not the right, it's not the right thing to do.
Okay, um, so I'll see you at 7:30.
[court reporter] Jurors heard from a man first identified
as Jennifer Crumbley's high school friend.
During questioning, it was revealed he and Crumbley
had been having an affair.
[Marc] So the first message here would actually be
November of the 30th...
[Karen] The only reason that we called Brian Meloche
is that she told him that day
that she was worried her kid was gonna do something stupid.
You did tell the police in the interview
that she said she was worried he might hurt himself
or something like that, that was your actually...
-Your type statement. -Yes.
The only reason we ever fought
to admit evidence of that affair was to show
that there was so much time being spent outside of work
in those endeavors and it wasn't just one.
[Marc] Did you do know that you met her at a Costco
parking lot across the street from her employer,
and that would happen during the work days.
-Correct. Correct. -And during work hours.
-And was it a regular thing? -Yes.
As a juror, as a mother, as anyone, you know,
does it matter to me that you were spending
all of this time outside of work during work
you know, engaged in all of that, then another
three and a half hours at the stable with the horses
you know, yes it does, because you know where you weren't?
Home with your kid or even checking in.
[Shannon] Hi, can you start by stating your name?
It's Jennifer Crumbley.
[Shannon] On the day after Thanksgiving, did you know
what James and your son were going to be doing that day?
[Jennifer] Him and Ethan were at the Acne firearm store
looking at guns.
[Shannon] Did they purchase a gun that day?
[Jennifer] They did.
He asked me if I wanted to go
to the shooting range with him and he never asked me
just me to go before.
I shot it a couple times and he did the rest.
I felt it was a fun day, I felt good about it.
[Shannon] Do you remember Tuesday, the 30th?
[Jennifer] Yes.
[Shannon] And we heard lots
of testimony already about you
getting a call from Shawn Hopkins.
Correct, he sent me a copy of a math worksheet.
[Shannon] What did you think when you saw that?
I was a little concerned, I was, I was pretty concerned.
[Shannon] What was it like walking into the meeting with
Mr. Hopkins and Mr. Ejak?
[Jennifer] It was pretty nonchalant, it was pretty brief
He told us that he didn't feel my son was a risk and actually
gave him the option if he wanted to stay at school
or go home, my son wanted to stay at school
and then I said I'm gonna go back to work.
[Shannon] Do you believe there were things
you were thinking at the time, I should do this
but I'm not doing it, do you look back
and think that?
No, I don't. I mean, I...
Of course, I look back after this all
all happened and, um, I've asked myself
if I would've done anything differently
and I wouldn't, no.
[Shannon] If you could change what happened, would you?
Oh, absolutely. I wish he would have killed us instead.
I think the prosecution has done an excellent job
of presenting their case.
But... [sighs] Who knows?
We're talking about a jury,
you know, there's 17 people
in the jury box and they each have
their own views and experiences,
and own interpretations.
Um, I hope that they see it similar to I do.
[♪ intense music playing]
[Marshal] All rise for the jury.
[Judge] Ladies and gentlemen, I've been informed
that you have a verdict.
-Is that correct? -[juror] That is correct.
[Judge] Could you please read your verdict?
[woman 2] On count one of involuntary manslaughter
as to Madisyn Baldwin, we find the defendant guilty,
of involuntary manslaughter.
On count two of involuntary manslaughter
in regards to Tate Myre,
we find the defendant guilty
of involuntary manslaughter.
A Michigan mother found guilty on all four counts
of involuntary manslaughter.
[reporter 9] After a day and a half of deliberations,
a Michigan jury finding Jennifer Crumbley guilty.
[reporter 10] The jury determined Crumbley
failed in her duty as a parent
by ignoring the signs of her son's
deteriorating mental health.
Jennifer Crumbley is the first U.S. parent
convicted of manslaughter over a mass shooting
carried out by their own child.
[reporter 11] It is a historic decision.
This is a landmark ruling, there's no doubt
that this will be seen as a very significant moment.
[woman 3] If you start using
the Crumbley case as a precedent,
how many parents who are good parents
will get caught in this net?
[David] Getting ready for the second trial,
it's no longer a first, so it's a little bit different.
I think most, if not all, of the jurors know
that Jennifer Crumbley was found guilty.
It just changes the dynamic a little bit.
You understand that you are charged with
four counts of involuntary manslaughter?
[James] Yes.
-[♪ instrumental music playing] -[dog barking]
So, we're going to Oxford.
[Gregory] I'm Gregory Beaudry,
foreman for the James Crumbley trial.
So I guess East Street's right up here.
The Crumbley family lived there.
And the high school will be
right up here at the top of the hill.
[man 20] I appreciate you taking us.
Yeah, it's definitely a sad day.
The first thing I could think of was, uh,
how did a kid get a gun?
[♪ suspenseful music playing]
[reporter 12] James Crumbley will go on trial
following the conviction of his wife,
Jennifer Crumbley, on similar charges.
[woman] All rise. The court is now in session
with the Honorable Cheryl A. Matthews, presiding.
I felt very strongly about what
my approach was going to be to this case
and what my defense was going to be.
I do believe what I'm fighting for in this case.
I've believed it from the beginning.
Alright, so we're gonna hear, um, openings. Prosecutors?
[Marc] Thank you, judge.
The shooter's case is done.
The shooter's mother, Jennifer Crumbley,
her case is done.
You're here to decide the level of gross negligence
of James Crumbley.
And you will learn throughout this trial
that he was the adult out of anyone in the world
in the best position to prevent these kids' deaths.
This nightmare, these murders,
were preventable by him, foreseeable by him.
[Mariell] For me, it boils down to reasonable foreseeability.
And whether or not James had knowledge
of what his son was capable of or what his son was planning.
This case is not about what happened
inside of Oxford High School.
This case is about what happened
outside of Oxford High School.
He had no knowledge that his son had obtained access
to the firearms that James thought he had
responsibly hidden and, and prevented
his son from having access to.
[indistinct chatter]
[♪ instrumental music playing]
[David] They started with opening statements
this morning.
There's an issue where
the defendant makes calls
from the jail, and those are recorded,
and the prosecution is allowed to listen to those.
He's made some statements that are
threatening to the prosecutor.
[James] Shit's fucking goin' down.
I mean, it's going fucking down.
When I get out of here,
I am fuckin' on a rampage, Karen.
Yes, Karen McDonald, your ass is goin' down,
and you better be fuckin' scared.
[David] So, this afternoon, at the end of the day,
I'm gonna ask that the judge cut off his jail communications
other than with his attorney or a clergy member.
[indistinct chatter]
[David] And, judge, I'm happy to do that.
[Mariell] Okay, Your Honor, my client is not
willing to agree to the order.
[Judge] Okay, so...
[Mariell] It's basically restricting his
ability to speak to people, judge.
I mean, it-it's...
It's a complete revocation,
except for counsel and clergy.
[Judge] I'm most concerned about him being able to talk to you.
[David] Right, we're asking that the communications be limited
to only counsel and legitimate clergy
during the rest of the trial.
Defense counsel?
-What? -[indistinct]
-No. Help me. -Okay.
Your Honor, he is not agreeing to the order.
[Mariell] May I speak with Mr. Williams for one moment?
[Judge] Please step out of the room.
[Mariell] I disagree with the prosecution's characterization
of those phone calls.
Some of the phone calls that the prosecution was claiming
were threatening in some way were from...
years before the trial began.
They seem more to be venting about frustrations involving
the prosecution and the fact that
James was still incarcerated.
It felt like the prosecution was trying
to make James look bad
by raising this issue
after the trial had already started.
[long sigh]
Look...
being in... the public eye in the capacity
that I am, particularly right now in this country,
is, comes with a giant spoonful
of threatening statements
and behavior.
If this were anyone else in my office,
I would be stridently, um, insisting
that it be brought to the court.
[♪ mellow music playing]
[Karen] Um...
She did not say hardly anything
about how the gun was stored.
She said, you'll hear that he didn't believe
that he had access.
But how will we hear that unless he testifies?
-Right. -[Karen] That is the curious thing.
Right? They never say, like, once,
oh, my God, like, how did he get this gun?
Which, like, if they were shocked...
Here's, here's what it is. I got it.
If they were truly shocked that he had the gun,
they would have expressed that shock to law enforcement.
They just would have.
And there was no shock.
-[Marc] Zero. -Zero.
[Marc] That's a good slide for closing.
Today is the part of the evening where I tell Marc...
What is it you're really doing?
Does it have to be done?
And you probably should go home.
I will spend only as much time as I need.
I am preparing for examinations for tomorrow.
And it does need to be done right now.
[laughter]
[Karen] Okay, you guys.
-See you tomorrow. -Goodnight.
Bye.
[Marc] Good job today.
-You too. -[David] Yeah. It's a good job.
[♪ instrumental music playing]
[Judge] Prosecutors, you next your witness.
[Marc] Ms. Cammy Back.
Have you sold a firearm to James Crumbley?
[Cammy] Yes.
[Marc] Whose responsibility it is to actually
make the gun statement?
The buyer.
[Brett] This is the pistol case that would've came with it.
There were no locking mechanisms in it when it was found.
The legal key is foreseeability.
When you think about what he knew
about the gun, about his son...
and then he sees that drawing...
what do you do?
And any responsible person is gonna do a couple of things.
They're gonna ask him what's going on,
and they would look at that drawing and say,
my, God, that's the same gun we just bought him.
It's easy to go in hindsight on a lot of things.
Um, based on what my concerns were,
I was concerned about student well-being.
We talked about hindsight and looking back at some of the,
what they might call the signs
when it comes to the shooter,
that those weren't considered signs
until after the shooting occurred.
Is it your decision to testify,
or is your decision to remain silent?
It is my decision to remain silent.
In James' case, the jury got to hear from him.
They got to hear from him on the 911 call.
[James on audio recording] My son goes to the high school.
I have a missing gun at my house.
[Mariell] Says he sees his son for the first time
after the shooting...
-Why? -[James] I love you.
I love you. I love you. I love you.
[Mariell] Those recordings allow the jury to hear
from James in those moments
when he's learning all of this new information
and-and hearing from him as it happens.
[Judge] Members of the jury, the evidence and
arguments in this case are finished.
Remember that you have taken an oath
to return a true and just verdict.
Based only on the evidence, you must not let
sympathy, bias, or prejudice influence your decision.
[Gregory] When we went into deliberation,
I, uh, first said, "Let's find out what we're at here."
We went around the table
and we come up with
nine guilty... two not guilty, and one undecided.
It wasn't easy. Uh, a lot of emotions.
And, uh, that's why it took over 10 hours.
[Karen] When we were waiting for the verdict,
Marc and I just left and ended up
sitting out in my waiting room.
We knew they were gonna stay till 7
and it got to be like 6:50.
And then we both were just like,
Ugh, God! Please.
And then he just said, there's a verdict.
[Judge] Ladies and gentlemen, I know you've worked very hard.
We've all been awaiting your decision.
I know this was a very intense
decision for you all to make.
Uh, I believe you've selected a foreperson.
Who's the foreperson? You are the foreperson.
Could you read the verdict, please?
[Gregory] Count one, involuntary manslaughter
as to Madisyn Baldwin.
Guilty.
Count two, guilty of involuntary manslaughter
as to Tate Myre.
Count three, guilty of involuntary manslaughter
as to Hana St. Juliana.
Count four, guilty of involuntary manslaughter
as to Justin Shilling.
[♪ instrumental music playing]
[metal clinking]
[Karen] No amount of years in prison is gonna make
their grief or pain any less.
It's not gonna bring anybody back.
What they want most of all is just accountability.
The thought that I would have...
put all of these people in that community
and all of these victims through this journey
and asked so much of them
and have it not be... successful
was almost too much to bear.
[♪ instrumental music playing]
[♪ intense music playing]