1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 3 00:00:14,139 --> 00:00:17,017 [operator] 9-1-1, what's the location of your emergency? 4 00:00:17,934 --> 00:00:20,186 [James] Okay, I'm... I'm not really sure. 5 00:00:20,270 --> 00:00:23,940 I'm at my house. There's an active shooter situation 6 00:00:24,024 --> 00:00:27,402 going on at the high school. My son goes to the high school 7 00:00:27,485 --> 00:00:29,738 I have a missing gun at my house. 8 00:00:29,821 --> 00:00:32,032 I think my son took the gun. 9 00:00:32,115 --> 00:00:34,951 I don't know if it's him, I don't know what's going on. 10 00:00:35,035 --> 00:00:36,494 I am really freaking out. 11 00:00:49,424 --> 00:00:50,967 [news reporter] It's a groundbreaking case 12 00:00:51,051 --> 00:00:53,219 that's resulted in four counts of involuntary 13 00:00:53,303 --> 00:00:54,971 manslaughter charges 14 00:00:55,055 --> 00:00:57,390 against both James and Jennifer Crumbley. 15 00:00:57,474 --> 00:00:59,392 Authorities say the shooter used a handgun. 16 00:00:59,476 --> 00:01:01,352 His father had bought just days earlier. 17 00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:03,271 [news reporter 2] The first parents in America 18 00:01:03,354 --> 00:01:04,981 to be charged in a school shooting. 19 00:01:05,065 --> 00:01:06,858 [news reporter 3] Parents of the shooter 20 00:01:06,941 --> 00:01:08,443 at Oxford High School who killed four students 21 00:01:08,526 --> 00:01:11,154 and wounded others in November 2021. 22 00:01:11,237 --> 00:01:13,031 [Karen] There are very rare circumstances 23 00:01:13,323 --> 00:01:16,034 where gross negligence rises 24 00:01:16,117 --> 00:01:19,537 to the level where you can be charged with a serious crime. 25 00:01:19,829 --> 00:01:21,122 This is one of them. 26 00:01:21,206 --> 00:01:22,207 [reporter 1] Crumbley's defense 27 00:01:22,290 --> 00:01:23,333 has said a conviction 28 00:01:23,416 --> 00:01:24,501 would set a dangerous precedent 29 00:01:24,584 --> 00:01:25,794 for unwitting parents. 30 00:01:26,169 --> 00:01:27,504 [Marc] This case is very different. 31 00:01:27,587 --> 00:01:28,880 This is about parents 32 00:01:28,963 --> 00:01:31,299 who largely ignored their son 33 00:01:31,382 --> 00:01:34,886 neglected his cries for help, and then bought him a gun. 34 00:01:34,969 --> 00:01:36,805 [Karen] It really was just common sense. 35 00:01:36,888 --> 00:01:39,474 You don't get to walk away from that. You just don't. 36 00:01:40,475 --> 00:01:41,726 That's a criminal act. 37 00:02:00,036 --> 00:02:02,413 My name is Jennifer Crumbley, and I'm the defendant. 38 00:02:04,415 --> 00:02:06,042 I felt as a family where we were 39 00:02:06,126 --> 00:02:07,335 the three of us were really close. 40 00:02:07,919 --> 00:02:09,796 We did a lot of things together. 41 00:02:10,088 --> 00:02:13,007 I joined the ski patrol because the family can ski free. 42 00:02:13,091 --> 00:02:14,801 Also to help people out. 43 00:02:14,884 --> 00:02:17,303 So I got him into skiing and he would come out 44 00:02:17,387 --> 00:02:19,013 with me on my patrol shifts. 45 00:02:19,764 --> 00:02:21,015 We did a lot of board games. 46 00:02:21,558 --> 00:02:23,601 Every year around Thanksgiving 47 00:02:23,685 --> 00:02:25,228 we would go cut a Christmas tree down. 48 00:02:25,311 --> 00:02:27,272 Halloween, we grew our own pumpkins. 49 00:02:27,355 --> 00:02:29,065 So we always carved our own pumpkins 50 00:02:29,149 --> 00:02:31,317 and had a whole bunch put around the house. 51 00:02:31,401 --> 00:02:32,777 The Crumbley's were a middle-class family. 52 00:02:32,861 --> 00:02:34,904 They vacationed together. They worked. 53 00:02:37,031 --> 00:02:38,533 [Jennifer ] I was a marketing director 54 00:02:38,616 --> 00:02:39,993 at a real estate acquisition company. 55 00:02:40,869 --> 00:02:43,580 My husband had a hard time holding down a job. 56 00:02:43,663 --> 00:02:45,498 He was doing DoorDash. 57 00:02:45,957 --> 00:02:48,168 [Mariell] James was a great father. 58 00:02:48,251 --> 00:02:50,170 He spent time with his son. 59 00:02:50,461 --> 00:02:53,506 No one is perfect, but James did the best he could. 60 00:02:54,174 --> 00:02:55,633 They spent a lot of time together 61 00:02:55,717 --> 00:02:57,135 especially during COVID. 62 00:02:57,802 --> 00:02:59,804 Even the morning of the shooting James drove his son to school 63 00:02:59,888 --> 00:03:02,223 which was not abnormal. That happened a lot. 64 00:03:02,307 --> 00:03:04,434 There was a couple of times where Ethan 65 00:03:04,517 --> 00:03:05,810 had expressed anxiety. 66 00:03:06,227 --> 00:03:09,314 Anxiety about what he was going to do after high school. 67 00:03:09,606 --> 00:03:12,901 But not to a level where I felt he needed to go 68 00:03:12,984 --> 00:03:15,695 see a psychiatrist or a mental health professional. 69 00:03:16,529 --> 00:03:19,032 As a parent, you spend your whole life trying 70 00:03:19,115 --> 00:03:22,202 to protect your child from other dangers. 71 00:03:22,619 --> 00:03:24,329 You never would think you have to protect 72 00:03:24,412 --> 00:03:26,414 your child from harming somebody else. 73 00:03:26,497 --> 00:03:29,500 [indistinct police radio chatter] 74 00:03:29,584 --> 00:03:31,461 [female operator] Shooter situation at the Oxford School. 75 00:03:31,544 --> 00:03:33,421 745 North Oxford road. 76 00:03:33,713 --> 00:03:35,381 [indistinct chatter] 77 00:03:37,926 --> 00:03:40,803 [David] The shooting started about 12:50. 78 00:03:41,054 --> 00:03:43,473 He went into a bathroom with a backpack. 79 00:03:44,474 --> 00:03:46,142 [Marc] He went into the handicapped stall 80 00:03:46,226 --> 00:03:48,770 and then he took a 9mm out of his backpack. 81 00:03:48,853 --> 00:03:50,396 He loaded it and he racked it. 82 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:52,899 [Edward] He comes out of the bathroom 83 00:03:52,982 --> 00:03:56,903 and immediately to his left is a victim. 84 00:03:56,986 --> 00:04:00,531 And he shoots her and then her boyfriend was there. 85 00:04:00,615 --> 00:04:02,200 He put his hand up and shot him. 86 00:04:02,992 --> 00:04:07,747 He then quickly turned his gun to a group of four girls 87 00:04:07,830 --> 00:04:09,082 that were just standing there. 88 00:04:09,165 --> 00:04:11,209 He shot Hana St. Juliana 89 00:04:11,668 --> 00:04:14,087 and she immediately fell to the ground. 90 00:04:17,382 --> 00:04:21,469 And I see someone dressed in dark, oversized clothing. 91 00:04:22,178 --> 00:04:24,472 They have the mask on. 92 00:04:25,723 --> 00:04:29,269 A hat, glasses and a hood. 93 00:04:30,937 --> 00:04:32,522 And I lock eyes with them. 94 00:04:33,356 --> 00:04:35,275 I realize he's raising a gun to me. 95 00:04:35,608 --> 00:04:38,319 [Edward] He then goes around the hallway. 96 00:04:39,904 --> 00:04:41,447 He might have reloaded his gun. 97 00:04:41,823 --> 00:04:44,200 Like if you were at a gun range and practicing. 98 00:04:44,534 --> 00:04:50,331 Ethan then came into closer view and I could tell it was Ethan. 99 00:04:50,957 --> 00:04:53,793 I said, buddy, are you okay? What's going on? 100 00:04:53,876 --> 00:04:56,587 And when he didn't respond to me and he looked away 101 00:04:58,256 --> 00:05:00,466 that's when I knew it was him. 102 00:05:00,550 --> 00:05:03,386 That he was the shooter. 103 00:05:04,470 --> 00:05:06,431 [Edward] And then he continues on down the hallway 104 00:05:06,514 --> 00:05:09,976 and stops at the bathroom where Justin was killed. 105 00:05:10,476 --> 00:05:13,104 [Keegan] I went to the stall, I squatted on the toilet 106 00:05:13,187 --> 00:05:14,981 so he couldn't see my feet. 107 00:05:15,064 --> 00:05:17,150 It was quiet for a second and then I heard a shot. 108 00:05:17,358 --> 00:05:19,235 [woman 1] What did you see when you came out of the stall? 109 00:05:19,694 --> 00:05:22,697 [Keegan] Justin's body in a pool of blood. 110 00:05:31,414 --> 00:05:34,459 Tonight, the scene tragically too familiar. 111 00:05:34,542 --> 00:05:37,628 Armed officers racing into school in lockdown. 112 00:05:37,712 --> 00:05:40,715 Bloodshed. Terrified children running for their lives. 113 00:05:40,798 --> 00:05:42,550 [reporter 2] This time at Oxford High School 114 00:05:42,633 --> 00:05:44,552 some 40 miles north of Detroit. 115 00:05:44,635 --> 00:05:46,512 [reporter 3] Oxford High School shooting in Michigan 116 00:05:46,596 --> 00:05:49,140 that left four students dead and seven others injured. 117 00:05:49,223 --> 00:05:51,225 [Deputy] Deputies responded within five minutes 118 00:05:51,309 --> 00:05:52,852 had the suspect in custody. 119 00:05:52,935 --> 00:05:54,479 He gave the weapon up. 120 00:05:54,562 --> 00:05:55,980 He did have the weapon on him at the time. 121 00:05:56,064 --> 00:05:58,107 It was a semi-automatic handgun. 122 00:06:01,194 --> 00:06:03,321 I am charging the young man 123 00:06:03,404 --> 00:06:06,324 who took the gun into that school and shot 124 00:06:07,325 --> 00:06:09,911 Hana St. Juliana, age 14, 125 00:06:10,578 --> 00:06:12,830 a volleyball player and a basketball player 126 00:06:13,539 --> 00:06:15,625 and her father asked me to tell you that she was 127 00:06:15,708 --> 00:06:18,002 one of the happiest and most joyful kids. 128 00:06:18,961 --> 00:06:21,714 Madisyn Baldwin, age 17, 129 00:06:21,798 --> 00:06:23,966 a talented artist and big sister. 130 00:06:25,009 --> 00:06:26,344 Justin Shilling, 131 00:06:28,096 --> 00:06:30,932 co-captain of the Oxford bowling team and a golfer. 132 00:06:32,392 --> 00:06:36,354 Tate Myre, a junior football player, an honor student. 133 00:06:36,938 --> 00:06:40,441 Mr. Myre asked me when I spoke to him if I had children 134 00:06:41,526 --> 00:06:43,903 and I said that I did and that I would treat this case 135 00:06:43,986 --> 00:06:45,655 like these are my own children. 136 00:06:53,121 --> 00:06:54,914 [Karen] The shooting took place on a Tuesday. 137 00:06:54,997 --> 00:06:58,543 They presented the case the next morning on the shooter. 138 00:06:59,252 --> 00:07:02,839 [David] Then over the period of Wednesday into Thursday 139 00:07:02,922 --> 00:07:05,007 we received more information about 140 00:07:05,091 --> 00:07:07,635 what had happened leading up to the shooting. 141 00:07:08,428 --> 00:07:14,392 We knew that James Crumbley called 911 and told 911 operator 142 00:07:14,475 --> 00:07:16,727 that he thinks his son was the shooter. 143 00:07:16,811 --> 00:07:18,855 [David] We learned that he'd written a journal 144 00:07:18,938 --> 00:07:21,357 and he talked about wanting a gun. 145 00:07:21,441 --> 00:07:24,152 Trying to get his parents to get him a gun. 146 00:07:25,319 --> 00:07:27,613 Everything else we learned just made it worse. 147 00:07:37,206 --> 00:07:40,251 November the 26th, they walked up to the counter 148 00:07:40,334 --> 00:07:43,004 and the dad said, that's the gun I'm going to buy. 149 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,673 And he paid in cash. They bought it. 150 00:07:45,756 --> 00:07:47,258 They waited for the background check to clear. 151 00:07:47,341 --> 00:07:49,135 Eventually did, and they walked out. 152 00:07:50,928 --> 00:07:52,930 His post and I think it was to Instagram, 153 00:07:53,389 --> 00:07:55,892 and it says, "Got my new beauty today." 154 00:07:59,729 --> 00:08:02,398 [Marc] And the next day, the 27th, they're at the range. 155 00:08:07,820 --> 00:08:09,572 He shows his mom how to use it. 156 00:08:17,330 --> 00:08:20,541 There was a teacher who found him researching ammunition. 157 00:08:21,542 --> 00:08:22,960 So then that person left 158 00:08:23,044 --> 00:08:24,962 a voicemail for Jennifer Crumbley. 159 00:08:26,088 --> 00:08:28,382 [School official] I'm calling from Oxford High School. 160 00:08:28,466 --> 00:08:31,636 One of his teachers had sent an email to the office, 161 00:08:31,719 --> 00:08:33,095 said that she was concerned. 162 00:08:33,554 --> 00:08:36,307 He was on his phone looking at bullets. 163 00:08:36,807 --> 00:08:38,643 [Marc] And that's when Jennifer Crumbley 164 00:08:38,726 --> 00:08:39,936 texted her son. 165 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:02,917 [Marc] He turned in a, a math homework 166 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,878 with a very disturbing drawings and words on it. 167 00:09:08,631 --> 00:09:10,841 [David] The counselor texted the drawings 168 00:09:10,925 --> 00:09:12,885 to the shooter's parents. 169 00:09:13,469 --> 00:09:14,804 [Marc] They called the parents and said 170 00:09:14,887 --> 00:09:16,097 we need you to come in. 171 00:09:16,180 --> 00:09:17,974 At first, Jennifer Crumbley said she can't. 172 00:09:18,057 --> 00:09:19,850 And she said, have you called my husband? 173 00:09:19,934 --> 00:09:21,602 And we now have evidence 174 00:09:21,686 --> 00:09:23,437 to show that they were communicating with each other. 175 00:09:38,119 --> 00:09:39,704 Eventually they both came in. 176 00:09:49,630 --> 00:09:52,008 The school counselor told them that I think 177 00:09:52,091 --> 00:09:56,429 you need to get him services and take him home. 178 00:09:56,512 --> 00:09:58,723 And both Jennifer Crumbley and James Crumbley 179 00:09:58,806 --> 00:09:59,890 said they couldn't do it. 180 00:10:01,309 --> 00:10:04,145 Neither one of them at any point said 181 00:10:04,228 --> 00:10:06,564 that you bought him a gun four days ago. 182 00:10:10,526 --> 00:10:12,320 They're being told by a school counselor, 183 00:10:12,403 --> 00:10:14,488 he's saying this is suicidal ideation. 184 00:10:16,157 --> 00:10:17,158 And they do nothing. 185 00:10:23,331 --> 00:10:25,458 They do less than nothing. They don't look for the gun. 186 00:11:00,951 --> 00:11:02,453 [man over radio] There are requesting medical assistance. 187 00:11:02,995 --> 00:11:04,789 Multiple injuries. Possible... 188 00:11:18,803 --> 00:11:21,514 One of the first questions that Karen asked was 189 00:11:21,847 --> 00:11:22,890 where did he get the gun? 190 00:11:24,642 --> 00:11:27,019 And that's when the focus turned to the parents. 191 00:11:27,937 --> 00:11:30,022 [Karen] As soon as I heard that they were 192 00:11:30,106 --> 00:11:31,565 called to the school that day 193 00:11:31,649 --> 00:11:35,069 the messages about, LOL, don't get caught 194 00:11:35,152 --> 00:11:38,155 those were very, very concerning to me. 195 00:11:38,239 --> 00:11:41,200 And so when they presented the case on the shooter 196 00:11:41,283 --> 00:11:43,119 I addressed that. 197 00:11:43,202 --> 00:11:44,286 What about the parents? 198 00:11:46,997 --> 00:11:49,208 [reporter 4] Oakland County Prosecutor, Karen McDonald 199 00:11:49,291 --> 00:11:51,711 announcing charges against the parents of the 15-year-old 200 00:11:51,794 --> 00:11:53,963 charged in this week's deadly school shooting. 201 00:11:54,630 --> 00:11:57,883 The facts of this case are so egregious. 202 00:11:57,967 --> 00:12:02,221 The notion that a parent could read those words 203 00:12:02,304 --> 00:12:06,434 and also know that their son had access to a deadly weapon 204 00:12:07,268 --> 00:12:08,644 that they gave him 205 00:12:08,936 --> 00:12:10,980 is unconscionable and I think it's criminal. 206 00:12:11,397 --> 00:12:12,481 Thank you. 207 00:12:12,565 --> 00:12:14,608 [Marc] We were in communications with the sheriff's office 208 00:12:14,859 --> 00:12:16,360 and then they went to go pick 'em up 209 00:12:16,444 --> 00:12:17,611 and they couldn't find 'em. 210 00:12:17,945 --> 00:12:20,614 So that's when things really blew up. 211 00:12:20,698 --> 00:12:22,241 That was national news that whole night. 212 00:12:22,324 --> 00:12:25,077 Do you know where the shooter's parents are right now? 213 00:12:25,536 --> 00:12:27,288 I do not. I'm... 214 00:12:27,371 --> 00:12:30,666 I'm being briefed on any kind of update but no, I don't. 215 00:12:30,958 --> 00:12:32,835 [reporter 5] They were scheduled to surrender to authorities 216 00:12:32,918 --> 00:12:35,504 at 2:00 p.m. local time Friday, but did not appear. 217 00:12:35,588 --> 00:12:36,756 [reporter 6] US Marshals late Friday night 218 00:12:36,839 --> 00:12:38,382 put up wanted posters. 219 00:12:38,466 --> 00:12:40,718 We're now offering a $10,000 reward. 220 00:12:42,219 --> 00:12:43,721 [David] That really wound up 221 00:12:43,804 --> 00:12:45,890 becoming a real sideshow. 222 00:12:46,348 --> 00:12:47,641 [reporter 7] Authorities say the couple 223 00:12:47,725 --> 00:12:48,809 skipped their arraignment 224 00:12:48,893 --> 00:12:50,269 sparking a manhunt. 225 00:12:50,603 --> 00:12:53,272 [Karen] They went on a run and drove 40 miles south 226 00:12:53,564 --> 00:12:54,690 downtown Detroit 227 00:12:55,316 --> 00:12:57,902 at a friend's art studio in a warehouse. 228 00:12:58,110 --> 00:13:01,280 [operator 2] 911, what is the address of the emergency? 229 00:13:01,363 --> 00:13:02,907 [informer] The parents of the shooter 230 00:13:02,990 --> 00:13:05,451 that are running away... they're here. 231 00:13:05,534 --> 00:13:08,204 It's their car and the woman is here. 232 00:13:08,788 --> 00:13:10,372 [David] And I believe it was after midnight 233 00:13:10,456 --> 00:13:14,001 when the parents were captured hiding out in Detroit. 234 00:13:15,085 --> 00:13:16,253 [officer] On your stomach. 235 00:13:16,337 --> 00:13:17,963 Get on your fucking stomach. 236 00:13:18,547 --> 00:13:20,216 [officer 1] We have, in fact, taken into custody 237 00:13:20,299 --> 00:13:22,343 without incident James and Jennifer Crumbley, 238 00:13:22,885 --> 00:13:25,429 the fugitives involved in the Oxford incident. 239 00:13:31,769 --> 00:13:32,937 [Karen] Hey, um... 240 00:13:33,521 --> 00:13:34,522 Hey, Kate? 241 00:13:37,399 --> 00:13:42,071 Kate? I really need, like, quiet until I get through this brief. 242 00:13:42,154 --> 00:13:44,573 [assistant] Would you run across from Marc... 243 00:13:44,657 --> 00:13:47,576 [Karen] Everyone thinks that being a prosecutor is exciting 244 00:13:47,660 --> 00:13:49,578 because, you know, they see the shows. 245 00:13:50,329 --> 00:13:53,082 But the thing that really intrigued me about it was 246 00:13:53,165 --> 00:13:55,417 standing up for people who were vulnerable 247 00:13:55,501 --> 00:13:59,713 and that couldn't represent or advocate for themselves, 248 00:13:59,797 --> 00:14:01,298 who had been victims of crime. 249 00:14:02,258 --> 00:14:04,093 I was a public school teacher for three years 250 00:14:04,176 --> 00:14:08,472 and then decided to pursue a law degree. 251 00:14:10,266 --> 00:14:13,102 I was an assistant prosecutor in this very building 252 00:14:13,435 --> 00:14:16,897 and I would walk in here every day, about 25 years ago 253 00:14:16,981 --> 00:14:18,774 never imagining someday I'd be walking in 254 00:14:18,858 --> 00:14:20,359 with my name on the door. 255 00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:23,529 [man 2] Good luck, sir. Let me know if anything. 256 00:14:24,530 --> 00:14:26,365 -We're gonna let David, um... -[man 2] Sorry. 257 00:14:26,907 --> 00:14:29,034 We're gonna let David do the work 258 00:14:29,118 --> 00:14:31,120 and then you can film Marc and I. 259 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:41,005 Did somebody leave this on your desk? 260 00:14:41,088 --> 00:14:42,715 Because, like, what's the message here? 261 00:14:42,798 --> 00:14:44,091 Did you get one of these? 262 00:14:44,174 --> 00:14:45,801 It's like a stress ball. 263 00:14:46,677 --> 00:14:49,054 I've been an attorney for 16 years. 264 00:14:49,138 --> 00:14:50,222 I've been here for 15. 265 00:14:50,514 --> 00:14:53,058 And I went to law school to be a prosecutor. 266 00:14:53,142 --> 00:14:55,394 [David] You're coming in at a time when... 267 00:14:55,686 --> 00:14:58,230 Karen and I have been in office now for about 18 months. 268 00:14:58,564 --> 00:15:00,316 When I joined the office 269 00:15:00,774 --> 00:15:03,110 I spent a lot of time thinking about 270 00:15:03,193 --> 00:15:04,820 the problems we might encounter. 271 00:15:05,154 --> 00:15:06,697 And it never occurred to me 272 00:15:06,780 --> 00:15:08,240 that one of them would be a school shooting. 273 00:15:08,532 --> 00:15:10,492 [Marc] I do remember vividly at one point 274 00:15:10,576 --> 00:15:13,162 we were all at the media room, and Karen said 275 00:15:13,245 --> 00:15:15,039 I want everyone to go around the room 276 00:15:15,122 --> 00:15:16,373 to give their opinion. 277 00:15:16,832 --> 00:15:18,918 But I'm telling you right now, we're charging the parents. 278 00:15:20,377 --> 00:15:21,629 And then she walked out. 279 00:15:22,129 --> 00:15:26,133 [interviewer 1] Did you even know... that nothing like that 280 00:15:26,216 --> 00:15:28,427 had ever been done before? 281 00:15:28,677 --> 00:15:30,638 No. No. 282 00:15:30,721 --> 00:15:34,767 But certainly understood the extraordinary set of facts. 283 00:15:35,184 --> 00:15:40,856 I know, I know we have a legal duty as parents 284 00:15:40,940 --> 00:15:44,777 to protect other people from our dangerous kids. 285 00:15:45,110 --> 00:15:46,570 [Karen] Okay. Come here. 286 00:15:47,321 --> 00:15:49,281 It's okay. Sit. Sit, sit, sit. 287 00:15:49,573 --> 00:15:51,492 Josie, chill. It's okay. 288 00:15:52,493 --> 00:15:53,535 Did you read that? 289 00:15:54,119 --> 00:15:55,287 It wasn't earth-shattering. 290 00:15:57,289 --> 00:15:58,415 There'll be more and more of them. 291 00:15:58,499 --> 00:15:59,500 [Karen] Mm-hmm. 292 00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:02,920 The amount of attention and significance of it. 293 00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:05,214 Everyone talking about what a message it sends. 294 00:16:05,589 --> 00:16:06,882 And I know that it does send a message. 295 00:16:06,966 --> 00:16:08,300 I absolutely get that. 296 00:16:08,384 --> 00:16:09,385 Oh, here it is. 297 00:16:09,468 --> 00:16:10,678 It wasn't a motivator. 298 00:16:11,011 --> 00:16:12,972 It really was just common sense. 299 00:16:13,055 --> 00:16:14,974 This is your lunch. 300 00:16:15,307 --> 00:16:16,976 -[Jeffrey] Right. -Do you need it? 301 00:16:17,059 --> 00:16:18,727 -[Jeffrey] Yeah. -Will you eat it? Okay. 302 00:16:21,689 --> 00:16:24,650 I actually do make him a salad. 303 00:16:24,733 --> 00:16:28,070 And about 50% of the time, he leaves it at home. 304 00:16:29,113 --> 00:16:31,615 -So that's highly... -[Jeffrey] We get at least 50%. 305 00:16:31,699 --> 00:16:33,075 It's highly frustrating to me. 306 00:16:35,703 --> 00:16:37,037 Oh, thank you. 307 00:16:39,289 --> 00:16:41,000 Alright. See you. Alright. 308 00:16:41,083 --> 00:16:42,543 Okay. Bye. Love you. 309 00:16:42,626 --> 00:16:44,670 -Okay. Have a good day. -Thank you. You too. 310 00:16:44,753 --> 00:16:46,505 Good girl. Good to see you. 311 00:16:53,762 --> 00:16:55,764 [Karen] There are many issues and motions 312 00:16:55,848 --> 00:16:57,975 that has to be decided by the court. 313 00:16:58,058 --> 00:17:01,395 Then we're also simultaneously prepping for trial, 314 00:17:01,478 --> 00:17:04,023 which is a giant task. 315 00:17:05,691 --> 00:17:10,237 I think it's powerful when he takes the stance in the hallway 316 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,740 and takes aim prior to shooting. 317 00:17:12,823 --> 00:17:17,745 I think that that image for people of his actions 318 00:17:17,828 --> 00:17:19,246 it doesn't have to show what-- 319 00:17:19,329 --> 00:17:23,625 Well, actually, I think it's also to show 320 00:17:24,793 --> 00:17:28,213 that he was experienced with a firearm. 321 00:17:28,297 --> 00:17:29,673 And he was experienced with a firearm 322 00:17:29,757 --> 00:17:31,675 because the only thing his parents did with him 323 00:17:31,759 --> 00:17:33,218 took him to a shooting range. 324 00:17:33,302 --> 00:17:34,845 [Marc] We could even splice that video in 325 00:17:34,928 --> 00:17:36,263 with the shooting range video. 326 00:17:36,346 --> 00:17:38,265 -It's the same stance. -Right. Right. 327 00:17:38,348 --> 00:17:41,185 [Karen] He doesn't look like he's some kid with a gun. 328 00:17:41,268 --> 00:17:42,644 -Do you guys think? -[Marc] No. 329 00:17:42,728 --> 00:17:44,813 I think he looks like he knows what he's doing 330 00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:47,566 just doing what he was taught. 331 00:17:50,778 --> 00:17:53,238 [interviewer 1] You've kind of hinted a couple of times 332 00:17:53,322 --> 00:17:55,240 that you have a really strong case... 333 00:17:55,324 --> 00:17:58,243 maybe stronger than people know publicly. 334 00:17:58,786 --> 00:18:01,121 When you get down to the actual elements, 335 00:18:01,205 --> 00:18:03,332 their big defense has been 336 00:18:03,415 --> 00:18:05,834 that they locked their weapon. 337 00:18:07,419 --> 00:18:09,213 [Karen] Well, first they went to the substation 338 00:18:09,296 --> 00:18:12,049 and they were asked at least two or three times 339 00:18:12,132 --> 00:18:13,467 where the weapon was 340 00:18:13,550 --> 00:18:14,927 and they never said it was locked. 341 00:18:15,010 --> 00:18:16,428 [interrogator] That was your gun? 342 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,517 [James] It was hidden in our armoire in the case. 343 00:18:22,101 --> 00:18:24,561 They said it was hidden under some clothing 344 00:18:24,645 --> 00:18:26,188 in an armoire. 345 00:18:26,271 --> 00:18:27,689 And she also lies. 346 00:18:28,190 --> 00:18:30,025 In the back of the police car, she says, 347 00:18:30,109 --> 00:18:31,777 we had no notice. 348 00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:34,154 He was a perfect kid. He's never been in trouble. 349 00:18:34,238 --> 00:18:35,823 He gave us no issues whatsoever. 350 00:18:36,156 --> 00:18:38,242 He's never been in trouble. He's never done anything. 351 00:18:38,325 --> 00:18:40,452 He's never done anything wrong. He's a good kid. 352 00:18:40,494 --> 00:18:41,537 [man 3] Right. 353 00:18:41,620 --> 00:18:43,038 Why are you lying about that? 354 00:18:43,122 --> 00:18:44,456 Why are you trying to cover it up? 355 00:18:44,832 --> 00:18:46,333 And the reason you were trying to cover it up 356 00:18:46,416 --> 00:18:48,210 is because you did know, you did have signs 357 00:18:48,293 --> 00:18:49,711 and you took him to the gun range. 358 00:18:51,922 --> 00:18:53,590 [Karen] I spent almost a whole weekend 359 00:18:53,674 --> 00:18:55,634 reviewing the Facebook messages 360 00:18:55,717 --> 00:18:58,720 between James and Jennifer for the last two years. 361 00:18:59,471 --> 00:19:00,889 And that was not easy, I'll tell you that 362 00:19:00,973 --> 00:19:02,850 because those people are yikes. 363 00:19:04,935 --> 00:19:07,312 The life they lived was just crazy. 364 00:19:07,396 --> 00:19:10,440 Like, just completely completely consumed 365 00:19:10,524 --> 00:19:12,609 with the highs and lows of the relationship 366 00:19:12,693 --> 00:19:16,989 and then, like, the sexting and the really terrible things 367 00:19:17,072 --> 00:19:19,324 they'd, like, video of their sexual acts. 368 00:19:20,450 --> 00:19:21,952 [David] Early on, it came out 369 00:19:22,035 --> 00:19:24,079 that Jennifer Crumbley was having an affair. 370 00:19:24,163 --> 00:19:25,747 We felt it was potentially relevant 371 00:19:25,831 --> 00:19:27,875 because it showed how she was spending her time 372 00:19:27,958 --> 00:19:29,459 instead of taking care of her son. 373 00:19:31,044 --> 00:19:33,046 And you see what her priorities were 374 00:19:33,130 --> 00:19:35,340 how much money they spent on their horses 375 00:19:35,424 --> 00:19:38,010 and these are people who, like, money was tight. 376 00:19:38,635 --> 00:19:40,846 They had serious drinking habits. 377 00:19:41,221 --> 00:19:44,224 And she bought a horse while drunk for $5,000. 378 00:19:44,641 --> 00:19:46,226 They wound up with two horses 379 00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:48,228 so that was a very expensive hobby. 380 00:19:49,021 --> 00:19:51,398 [Karen] It's a very toxic, turbulent relationship 381 00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:54,359 but none of it was about their son. 382 00:19:54,443 --> 00:19:55,611 Like, none of it. 383 00:19:57,321 --> 00:19:59,573 [David] Everyone knows there's a ton of information here. 384 00:19:59,656 --> 00:20:01,533 The text messages alone, 385 00:20:01,617 --> 00:20:03,243 depending on which thread you're looking at 386 00:20:03,327 --> 00:20:05,370 you know, are over 5,000 pages. 387 00:20:05,454 --> 00:20:07,623 And, you know, this is still 388 00:20:07,706 --> 00:20:09,291 months and months out from trial. 389 00:20:09,374 --> 00:20:10,375 Right. 390 00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:12,169 He had in his backpack, 391 00:20:12,544 --> 00:20:14,421 I don't know maybe 50, 392 00:20:14,504 --> 00:20:16,381 60 individual sheets of paper. 393 00:20:16,465 --> 00:20:17,466 Really? 394 00:20:17,549 --> 00:20:19,718 Yes. And, in fact, there's one where it says 395 00:20:19,801 --> 00:20:20,928 he specifically says, 396 00:20:21,011 --> 00:20:22,179 I can't wait till Tuesday. 397 00:20:24,306 --> 00:20:25,474 [Marc] We are all under the assumption 398 00:20:25,557 --> 00:20:27,100 that that math test on the 30th 399 00:20:27,184 --> 00:20:30,020 was his final leakage or plea for help 400 00:20:30,479 --> 00:20:32,981 but it looks like he's been doing it for a while. 401 00:20:35,943 --> 00:20:37,819 [Marc] When you speak with an expert 402 00:20:37,903 --> 00:20:39,196 in the area of mass shootings 403 00:20:39,279 --> 00:20:40,697 and school shootings in particular 404 00:20:40,781 --> 00:20:42,115 there's this concept of leakage. 405 00:20:42,616 --> 00:20:46,245 That's when an individual who's already decided 406 00:20:46,328 --> 00:20:47,955 that they're going to commit this act, 407 00:20:48,372 --> 00:20:51,208 they're basically, they're giving, you know 408 00:20:51,291 --> 00:20:52,584 a window into their plans. 409 00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:57,506 He was manifesting many, many issues for a long time. 410 00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:00,926 There's leakage in text messages to mom and dad, 411 00:21:01,802 --> 00:21:03,303 into his friend. 412 00:21:07,057 --> 00:21:08,850 [Karen] Okay. Tell me what happened at the... 413 00:21:09,309 --> 00:21:10,852 Did you have a meeting or... 414 00:21:11,186 --> 00:21:14,898 [Marc] We talked about the paper from the backpack. 415 00:21:14,982 --> 00:21:16,942 Right, but we don't have any evidence that they saw that. 416 00:21:17,025 --> 00:21:18,443 No, we don't have any evidence that they saw that. 417 00:21:18,527 --> 00:21:20,028 We don't know who saw it. 418 00:21:20,112 --> 00:21:21,738 We don't even know if it was ever turned in. 419 00:21:21,822 --> 00:21:23,532 It bolsters their argument that it was the school 420 00:21:23,615 --> 00:21:26,076 not the parents, because we don't know. 421 00:21:26,159 --> 00:21:27,577 We just don't know who saw it or who didn't. 422 00:21:27,661 --> 00:21:29,329 I mean, I think we need to find out... 423 00:21:29,413 --> 00:21:30,998 We need to find out when these assignments were given 424 00:21:31,081 --> 00:21:34,251 because if he has been making these drawings for weeks 425 00:21:34,793 --> 00:21:38,505 it's just more evidence of had you paid any attention. 426 00:21:38,588 --> 00:21:40,799 [Karen] Okay, just pushing back on that 427 00:21:40,882 --> 00:21:42,843 and being the only one of us here 428 00:21:42,926 --> 00:21:45,929 that has parented teenagers... 429 00:21:46,013 --> 00:21:47,556 [Marc] I know you're not looking through a backpack. 430 00:21:47,639 --> 00:21:49,224 You're never looking through a backpack. 431 00:21:49,308 --> 00:21:50,309 [Marc] I know that. I know that. 432 00:21:52,269 --> 00:21:54,730 [David] There's a belief that a shooter just snaps 433 00:21:54,813 --> 00:21:56,064 and that's just not true. 434 00:21:56,148 --> 00:21:57,899 There are always signs 435 00:21:57,983 --> 00:21:59,318 and there are always things that lead up to it. 436 00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:02,696 There's been a lot of talk about the bird video 437 00:22:02,779 --> 00:22:05,282 which I've seen it now, I guess, twice. 438 00:22:05,615 --> 00:22:08,827 It's not easy to look at. 439 00:22:08,910 --> 00:22:14,207 The defendant, he's got tongs, and he's got the baby bird 440 00:22:14,291 --> 00:22:18,045 and he dips it in water and then he proceeds to take 441 00:22:18,128 --> 00:22:19,379 like, a screwdriver 442 00:22:19,463 --> 00:22:22,215 and try to jam it into the bird's leg 443 00:22:22,299 --> 00:22:23,925 and see if he can tear it off. 444 00:22:24,009 --> 00:22:26,011 While he's doing that, he's got this kind of cooing voice. 445 00:22:26,094 --> 00:22:29,806 He's like, Hey, buddy, you got a boo-boo on your leg? 446 00:22:29,890 --> 00:22:31,892 After he just tried to, like, break the bird's leg off. 447 00:22:32,309 --> 00:22:34,061 And we know he'd done it before when he 448 00:22:34,144 --> 00:22:38,065 when he... decapitated a bird and then put it in a jar 449 00:22:38,815 --> 00:22:40,192 and then took it to school. 450 00:22:41,568 --> 00:22:43,111 In his journal 451 00:22:43,195 --> 00:22:45,113 he talked about wanting to see people suffer. 452 00:22:45,781 --> 00:22:47,991 And, yeah, a lot of people are suffering. 453 00:22:48,533 --> 00:22:50,869 Also, if he feels remorse, 454 00:22:50,952 --> 00:22:52,621 you would think that seeing what he did 455 00:22:52,704 --> 00:22:54,998 would elicit some emotional response. 456 00:22:55,082 --> 00:22:56,416 But it has not. 457 00:23:03,548 --> 00:23:05,050 [Mariell] I think that if somebody 458 00:23:05,133 --> 00:23:06,885 is made out to be a bad parent, 459 00:23:06,968 --> 00:23:09,137 then their behavior can be contorted 460 00:23:09,221 --> 00:23:10,722 into criminal behavior. 461 00:23:11,431 --> 00:23:13,225 Maybe a parent that doesn't see the signs, 462 00:23:13,308 --> 00:23:15,268 a parent that doesn't know 463 00:23:15,352 --> 00:23:17,479 that their child is struggling with something. 464 00:23:18,897 --> 00:23:20,065 I think that 465 00:23:22,651 --> 00:23:24,361 James Crumbley was 466 00:23:24,444 --> 00:23:26,363 made out to be someone that he's not. 467 00:23:26,822 --> 00:23:28,115 The morning of the shooting, 468 00:23:28,198 --> 00:23:30,283 he was a sophomore in high school's father. 469 00:23:31,076 --> 00:23:33,036 By 1:30 that afternoon, 470 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:34,746 he was the father of a school shooter. 471 00:23:35,247 --> 00:23:38,291 And by December 3rd, he was a monster. 472 00:23:39,042 --> 00:23:42,295 And I think that that, that theme carried 473 00:23:42,379 --> 00:23:44,506 throughout the prosecution in this case. 474 00:23:46,550 --> 00:23:50,011 [♪ soft instrumental music playing] 475 00:24:02,232 --> 00:24:04,651 [woman] All rise. Oakland County Court is now in session. 476 00:24:04,734 --> 00:24:06,987 The Honorable Cheryl A. Matthews presiding. 477 00:24:14,828 --> 00:24:16,246 [judge] Can you both raise your right hand? 478 00:24:16,329 --> 00:24:18,039 Do you swear or affirm the testimony 479 00:24:18,123 --> 00:24:19,124 you're about to give will be the truth, 480 00:24:19,207 --> 00:24:20,250 so help you, God? 481 00:24:20,333 --> 00:24:21,626 [Jennifer and James] Yes 482 00:24:21,710 --> 00:24:22,752 [Shannon] Your Honor, if I may, 483 00:24:22,836 --> 00:24:23,920 the other, the concern we have 484 00:24:24,004 --> 00:24:25,046 is we just found out 485 00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:26,173 you know, two or three days ago, 486 00:24:26,256 --> 00:24:27,841 that, uh, Ethan Crumbley's trial 487 00:24:27,924 --> 00:24:30,302 was moved to January. 488 00:24:30,677 --> 00:24:32,387 -And-- -[judge] Yes, why do I care? 489 00:24:32,471 --> 00:24:34,097 Because we need him as a witness in this trial. 490 00:24:34,181 --> 00:24:36,349 This is not about the defendants 491 00:24:36,433 --> 00:24:37,893 wanting to throw their son under the bus 492 00:24:37,976 --> 00:24:39,060 or make him look bad. 493 00:24:39,144 --> 00:24:40,270 This is about our clients 494 00:24:40,353 --> 00:24:41,688 defending the case. 495 00:24:41,771 --> 00:24:43,815 -[judge] I understand. I do. -Okay. 496 00:24:43,899 --> 00:24:45,567 [Marc] The judge granted our request 497 00:24:45,650 --> 00:24:47,402 and denied their request about the hearsay. 498 00:24:47,486 --> 00:24:49,362 Things about the journal, uh, the text messages 499 00:24:49,446 --> 00:24:50,614 between the shooter and his friend, 500 00:24:50,697 --> 00:24:51,698 those are huge for us. 501 00:24:52,324 --> 00:24:54,784 The thing that really we didn't expect today 502 00:24:54,868 --> 00:24:56,912 at least was that these defendants 503 00:24:56,995 --> 00:24:58,163 want to put their son on the stand 504 00:24:58,246 --> 00:24:59,456 to excuse their own liability. 505 00:25:05,212 --> 00:25:07,964 So, what I would like to do now 506 00:25:08,048 --> 00:25:12,052 is talk about next steps. 507 00:25:13,428 --> 00:25:14,721 She put on the record 508 00:25:14,804 --> 00:25:16,556 they're gonna call their own son. 509 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:17,849 I just keep thinking 510 00:25:18,350 --> 00:25:22,562 how that might feel to a parent 511 00:25:22,646 --> 00:25:24,648 whose kid was injured or was in that school 512 00:25:24,731 --> 00:25:26,316 or was killed. 513 00:25:26,691 --> 00:25:28,193 Because you know what they're gonna ask now? 514 00:25:28,276 --> 00:25:29,986 The logical question they're gonna ask is, 515 00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:31,071 "Oh, are you gonna give him a deal 516 00:25:31,154 --> 00:25:32,531 to testify against his parents?" 517 00:25:32,614 --> 00:25:34,824 [Kelly] Parents of injured or deceased victims 518 00:25:34,908 --> 00:25:36,326 are gonna love, I wanna hear 519 00:25:36,409 --> 00:25:37,702 from the kid who killed my kid. 520 00:25:37,786 --> 00:25:39,412 I wanna hear what he has... 521 00:25:39,496 --> 00:25:41,039 -I mean, they want... -[David] It's hard to know. 522 00:25:41,122 --> 00:25:43,208 It's hard to know. Some of them may react like, 523 00:25:43,291 --> 00:25:45,293 great, put that [no audio] on the stand, right? 524 00:25:45,377 --> 00:25:47,754 What could he possibly say that would weaken our case? 525 00:25:47,837 --> 00:25:49,381 -[man 5] Right. -[Washington] Well, I just don't 526 00:25:49,464 --> 00:25:51,216 think we can make any assumptions 527 00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:53,343 about how he's gonna testify 528 00:25:53,426 --> 00:25:54,469 once he takes the stand. 529 00:25:54,553 --> 00:25:55,637 He hasn't seen his parents. 530 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,055 He hasn't talked to his parents. 531 00:25:57,138 --> 00:25:58,515 We don't know what that first reaction 532 00:25:58,598 --> 00:26:00,225 is gonna be when he sees his parents 533 00:26:00,308 --> 00:26:01,518 for the first time on the stand 534 00:26:01,601 --> 00:26:02,936 if he were to testify 535 00:26:03,019 --> 00:26:04,104 and how that's gonna look. 536 00:26:04,187 --> 00:26:05,188 So I think it would be 537 00:26:05,272 --> 00:26:06,273 a little presumptuous 538 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:07,607 for us to say that it won't have 539 00:26:07,691 --> 00:26:08,942 a negative impact. We don't know. 540 00:26:09,985 --> 00:26:12,195 [♪ soft instrumental music playing] 541 00:26:12,279 --> 00:26:15,657 [insects chittering] 542 00:26:17,742 --> 00:26:19,619 [David] Everyone who's raised children 543 00:26:19,703 --> 00:26:21,246 sometimes thinks I am 544 00:26:21,329 --> 00:26:23,081 a less than perfect parent. 545 00:26:24,082 --> 00:26:25,959 They think, you know, on my worst day, 546 00:26:26,042 --> 00:26:27,961 if someone were to capture me, 547 00:26:28,044 --> 00:26:30,005 I might not look that great either. 548 00:26:30,088 --> 00:26:31,881 Am I gonna wind up on trial? 549 00:26:32,257 --> 00:26:33,883 -[David] Hey, Benj. -[Benj] Hey. Good to see you. 550 00:26:33,967 --> 00:26:35,468 -How are you? -[Benj] Doing well. 551 00:26:35,552 --> 00:26:37,637 [David] And what's different about this 552 00:26:37,721 --> 00:26:38,972 is the decisions they made, 553 00:26:39,055 --> 00:26:40,473 both about what not to do, 554 00:26:40,557 --> 00:26:42,142 but what they affirmatively did. 555 00:26:42,851 --> 00:26:45,020 -Eat dinner? -Yeah, I got some pizza. 556 00:26:46,354 --> 00:26:48,732 -Good to see you. -Oh, good to see you. 557 00:26:49,482 --> 00:26:50,817 [David] When I read 558 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:52,485 the shooter's journal, 559 00:26:52,569 --> 00:26:54,613 you can see that, um, 560 00:26:54,696 --> 00:26:57,407 he believed that he needed help. 561 00:26:57,490 --> 00:26:59,075 Where's your sister? 562 00:26:59,159 --> 00:27:00,827 [David] The opposite of love is not hate. 563 00:27:00,910 --> 00:27:02,579 It's just being ignored. 564 00:27:14,591 --> 00:27:16,426 [interviewer 1] First, I just wanted to ask you... 565 00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:18,845 if you could tell me your first and last name? 566 00:27:19,512 --> 00:27:21,848 [Steve] Steve St. Juliana. 567 00:27:21,931 --> 00:27:24,351 Father of one of the victims. 568 00:27:24,768 --> 00:27:28,772 [interviewer 1] And how would you describe who you are right now? 569 00:27:30,607 --> 00:27:32,609 [exhales] Who am I right now? 570 00:27:34,027 --> 00:27:37,405 Um... I'm a fraction of who I used to be. 571 00:27:39,115 --> 00:27:42,702 This would be the easiest way to say it. 572 00:27:43,286 --> 00:27:44,996 [♪ poignant music playing] 573 00:27:46,998 --> 00:27:50,543 This corner just has some of Hana's favorite things, 574 00:27:50,627 --> 00:27:53,797 stuffed animals and that, that I, that we got for her. 575 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:55,590 Well, some of the bracelets... 576 00:27:55,965 --> 00:27:59,636 um, that they did for the girls' lacrosse team, 577 00:27:59,719 --> 00:28:02,555 created pictures there of her in... 578 00:28:03,765 --> 00:28:05,266 volleyball and basketball. 579 00:28:14,609 --> 00:28:16,486 [Reina] This will eternally be up 580 00:28:16,569 --> 00:28:19,197 because Hana loved Christmas 581 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,658 and this is a tree that we decorated... 582 00:28:22,784 --> 00:28:25,036 now last year... 583 00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,330 right after Thanksgiving, we put it up. 584 00:28:27,997 --> 00:28:29,624 -Yeah. -[Steve] Before the shooting. 585 00:28:29,708 --> 00:28:31,543 [Reina] I don't wanna decorate a tree without her. 586 00:28:31,626 --> 00:28:33,962 So, I like it just the way it is. 587 00:28:34,045 --> 00:28:37,048 Yeah. I mean, there's so many things 588 00:28:37,132 --> 00:28:38,591 that bring back memories 589 00:28:38,675 --> 00:28:40,552 and you just never know how hard 590 00:28:40,635 --> 00:28:42,679 one's gonna hit you versus another. 591 00:28:46,224 --> 00:28:48,184 [Steve] I believe what the prosecutor 592 00:28:48,268 --> 00:28:50,645 is trying to accomplish 593 00:28:50,729 --> 00:28:53,314 in prosecuting the parents 594 00:28:53,398 --> 00:28:56,025 is absolutely the right thing. 595 00:28:57,652 --> 00:28:59,279 My only concern, really, 596 00:28:59,362 --> 00:29:03,658 is that because of that effort, 597 00:29:03,742 --> 00:29:05,869 there isn't much attention 598 00:29:05,952 --> 00:29:07,871 being put onto the school 599 00:29:08,455 --> 00:29:10,331 from the prosecutor's office. 600 00:29:14,627 --> 00:29:16,504 [Ven] What's missing from the criminal end of things 601 00:29:16,588 --> 00:29:19,340 is the accountability of the school. 602 00:29:20,884 --> 00:29:22,218 My name is Ven Johnson. 603 00:29:22,594 --> 00:29:25,013 I am the president of Ven Johnson Law, PLC 604 00:29:25,096 --> 00:29:26,639 and we are the plaintiff attorneys 605 00:29:26,723 --> 00:29:28,975 on behalf of a number of families. 606 00:29:29,809 --> 00:29:32,771 I'm Meghan Gregory. I am the mom of Keegan Gregory 607 00:29:32,854 --> 00:29:34,689 who was in the school that day. 608 00:29:36,483 --> 00:29:37,817 I'm Craig Shilling. 609 00:29:37,901 --> 00:29:39,652 I'm the father of Justin Shilling, 610 00:29:39,736 --> 00:29:42,697 one of the victims from that day. 611 00:29:56,961 --> 00:29:58,087 [Meghan] When the police dropped him off, 612 00:29:58,171 --> 00:29:59,506 they said to us... 613 00:30:00,340 --> 00:30:02,634 "Your son has witnessed things that we've never witnessed 614 00:30:02,717 --> 00:30:06,471 in our 20-some years of being police." 615 00:30:06,930 --> 00:30:10,099 I had reached out to Craig the night of the shooting... 616 00:30:10,517 --> 00:30:12,519 and just, I didn't know Craig, 617 00:30:12,602 --> 00:30:14,687 but I sent him a text and just said... 618 00:30:15,188 --> 00:30:16,606 "I just want you to know 619 00:30:16,689 --> 00:30:18,024 "your son was not alone in the bathroom. 620 00:30:18,107 --> 00:30:19,651 "My son was there. 621 00:30:19,734 --> 00:30:22,529 "And I'm sure there's a lot of questions 622 00:30:22,612 --> 00:30:24,989 and since he's the only one that can answer them," 623 00:30:25,281 --> 00:30:28,076 you know, "when the time's right, please reach out." 624 00:30:28,159 --> 00:30:30,078 You know, it gave us some comfort 625 00:30:30,161 --> 00:30:31,955 knowing that, you know, he wasn't, 626 00:30:32,038 --> 00:30:34,123 you know, that Justin was there with somebody else. 627 00:30:35,166 --> 00:30:36,167 But, you know... 628 00:30:36,709 --> 00:30:38,211 we're still looking for answers. 629 00:30:40,213 --> 00:30:43,299 Our entire situation 630 00:30:43,383 --> 00:30:44,968 is full accountability. 631 00:30:45,844 --> 00:30:47,387 Who are the ones in positions 632 00:30:47,470 --> 00:30:49,472 to help prevent all of this? 633 00:30:49,973 --> 00:30:52,016 Shooter and parents? Absolutely. 634 00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:55,353 ut so were multiple people in the school district. 635 00:30:55,436 --> 00:30:57,230 And when you hear what was going on 636 00:30:57,313 --> 00:30:58,648 in that home, 637 00:30:58,731 --> 00:31:01,025 I can't feel sorry for the shooter... 638 00:31:01,568 --> 00:31:04,320 but he was in a shit environment... 639 00:31:04,696 --> 00:31:05,697 clearly. 640 00:31:06,906 --> 00:31:08,908 [Meghan] If my child was saying he was seeing things 641 00:31:08,992 --> 00:31:10,660 or hearing voices, 642 00:31:10,743 --> 00:31:13,413 I would immediately be at the hospital with my child. 643 00:31:13,496 --> 00:31:15,874 And I think there's a difference of bad parenting 644 00:31:15,957 --> 00:31:17,959 and gross negligence, right? 645 00:31:18,042 --> 00:31:20,795 I mean, that was neglect on that child. 646 00:31:22,422 --> 00:31:25,633 [interviewer 1] Is there anything that you can tell me 647 00:31:25,717 --> 00:31:28,386 about the loss of your son? 648 00:31:31,055 --> 00:31:32,223 I mean, uh... 649 00:31:33,016 --> 00:31:37,103 it's a very large... hole. 650 00:31:43,151 --> 00:31:46,070 My life is nowadays it's, um... 651 00:31:46,738 --> 00:31:47,739 it's ridiculous. 652 00:31:50,158 --> 00:31:51,576 Families take it pretty hard. 653 00:31:53,161 --> 00:31:55,038 There's a big, huge hole in it. 654 00:31:55,121 --> 00:31:56,414 You know, I'm looking at... 655 00:31:57,624 --> 00:31:59,125 you know, trying to build a bridge 656 00:31:59,208 --> 00:32:00,460 across the hole so I can at least 657 00:32:00,543 --> 00:32:01,753 get to the other side. 658 00:32:02,211 --> 00:32:03,922 But, you know, that's a long process. 659 00:32:06,007 --> 00:32:08,217 [interviewer 1] What does justice look like for you? 660 00:32:19,729 --> 00:32:21,773 My son asked me, "Why does this happen?" 661 00:32:28,071 --> 00:32:29,072 I don't know. 662 00:32:30,698 --> 00:32:34,160 So, this pursuit of justice 663 00:32:34,243 --> 00:32:37,205 is, uh... necessary 664 00:32:37,288 --> 00:32:38,665 to answer that question for him... 665 00:32:39,749 --> 00:32:40,750 not just for me. 666 00:32:42,543 --> 00:32:44,837 But it's also necessary for... 667 00:32:46,130 --> 00:32:47,548 you know, the parents of all of these 668 00:32:47,632 --> 00:32:50,635 and all the other mass shootings. 669 00:32:50,718 --> 00:32:53,805 And, you know, accountability isn't just a word. 670 00:32:54,472 --> 00:32:56,391 I mean, this is... This is life. 671 00:32:58,851 --> 00:33:01,020 [♪ solemn music playing] 672 00:33:02,855 --> 00:33:05,024 [Karen] Every court date that is set, 673 00:33:05,108 --> 00:33:08,319 every piece of news, 674 00:33:08,403 --> 00:33:10,738 every event that goes on, in this case, 675 00:33:10,822 --> 00:33:14,742 it has a serious emotional effect 676 00:33:14,826 --> 00:33:16,703 on so many people. 677 00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:20,289 -[man 6] Good morning. -[woman] Hi. 678 00:33:20,373 --> 00:33:21,708 -Hi, how are you? -[woman] I'm good, how are you? 679 00:33:21,791 --> 00:33:23,459 Oh, I didn't realize you guys were all here. 680 00:33:24,419 --> 00:33:26,045 Nothing like him in the... 681 00:33:26,713 --> 00:33:28,089 [Marc] There's a mask requirement for... 682 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,091 -Oh, there is? -Yeah. 683 00:33:30,174 --> 00:33:32,343 -Do you have one? -Um... 684 00:33:32,802 --> 00:33:34,095 I did not realize that. 685 00:33:34,178 --> 00:33:35,388 -Yeah. -Thank you. 686 00:33:35,972 --> 00:33:36,973 Okay. 687 00:33:37,056 --> 00:33:38,766 [indistinct] 688 00:33:38,850 --> 00:33:40,351 [person 1] I don't think I'm going to the courtroom. 689 00:33:40,435 --> 00:33:42,520 -It's not the courthouse, right? -Yeah. 690 00:33:42,603 --> 00:33:43,688 Okay. 691 00:34:03,916 --> 00:34:06,002 [Paulette] We filed a notice asserting the defense 692 00:34:06,085 --> 00:34:09,505 of insanity on January 27th of 2022. 693 00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:11,674 At this time, we are withdrawing that notice, 694 00:34:11,758 --> 00:34:13,509 and we'll be proceeding with a guilty plea. 695 00:34:13,593 --> 00:34:15,470 Is it true that the firearm that you used 696 00:34:15,553 --> 00:34:16,804 on November the 30th was purchased 697 00:34:16,888 --> 00:34:18,514 on November the 26th, 2021 698 00:34:18,598 --> 00:34:20,016 by your father, James Crumbley? 699 00:34:20,767 --> 00:34:21,934 Yes. 700 00:34:22,018 --> 00:34:23,227 Is it true that you asked him 701 00:34:23,311 --> 00:34:24,395 to buy that firearm? 702 00:34:25,021 --> 00:34:26,272 -Yes. -Is it true 703 00:34:26,355 --> 00:34:27,356 that you gave him your own money 704 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:28,441 to buy that firearm? 705 00:34:28,524 --> 00:34:29,525 Yes. 706 00:34:29,984 --> 00:34:31,611 Is it true that you picked that gun out to buy? 707 00:34:32,278 --> 00:34:33,279 Yes. 708 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,491 Is it true that on November 30th, 2021, 709 00:34:37,658 --> 00:34:40,161 that 9-mm handgun that you used in Oxford High School 710 00:34:40,244 --> 00:34:42,497 was not kept in a safe or locked container? 711 00:34:42,914 --> 00:34:44,707 Yes, it was not locked. 712 00:34:44,791 --> 00:34:46,292 [Marc] People are satisfied. 713 00:34:52,632 --> 00:34:56,511 [Karen] Their big defense was, "We secured the gun." 714 00:34:57,053 --> 00:34:59,180 Well, their son pled and gave testimony 715 00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:01,891 during that plea that the gun wasn't locked, 716 00:35:02,308 --> 00:35:05,061 and that actually it was his money that they purcha... 717 00:35:05,144 --> 00:35:06,270 It was actually his. 718 00:35:06,687 --> 00:35:09,607 So, they don't have that to argue anymore, 719 00:35:09,690 --> 00:35:10,817 so that's significant. 720 00:35:17,740 --> 00:35:20,952 [man 8] The court understands that there are several 721 00:35:21,035 --> 00:35:24,872 identified victims that may wish to speak in this case. 722 00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:26,457 Could you please tell me your name? 723 00:35:26,541 --> 00:35:28,209 [Reina] Um, I'm Reina St. Juliana. 724 00:35:28,292 --> 00:35:29,710 [man 8] Thank you. And is there a statement you wish 725 00:35:29,794 --> 00:35:31,045 to share with the court this morning? 726 00:35:31,129 --> 00:35:32,797 [Reina] Uh, yes. 727 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:34,549 The empty seat at the dining table 728 00:35:34,632 --> 00:35:36,717 is the loudest silence I have ever heard. 729 00:35:37,677 --> 00:35:38,886 We were going to be the best duo 730 00:35:38,970 --> 00:35:40,221 on the lacrosse field. 731 00:35:42,431 --> 00:35:43,641 Instead of speaking at her wedding, 732 00:35:43,724 --> 00:35:44,892 I spoke at her funeral. 733 00:35:45,977 --> 00:35:47,728 Instead of fishtailing her hair for a game, 734 00:35:47,812 --> 00:35:49,313 I curled her hair in a casket. 735 00:35:50,398 --> 00:35:52,984 It doesn't matter if I go to her room to steal her clothes, 736 00:35:53,067 --> 00:35:54,986 show her an outfit, or ask for advice. 737 00:35:55,736 --> 00:35:57,363 I am met with silence and darkness. 738 00:35:58,364 --> 00:36:00,992 [♪ poignant music playing] 739 00:36:08,875 --> 00:36:10,751 [man 9] Um, so since we're here 740 00:36:10,835 --> 00:36:12,336 and this is a way to visualize it... 741 00:36:12,753 --> 00:36:15,339 if you look at putting the memorial maples 742 00:36:15,423 --> 00:36:16,757 along the road here... 743 00:36:17,884 --> 00:36:20,887 [Steve] We started, as a family, thinking of different ideas 744 00:36:20,970 --> 00:36:24,223 and also come up with the idea of a garden. 745 00:36:24,765 --> 00:36:26,517 Because that's Hana's name. 746 00:36:26,601 --> 00:36:30,855 Yeah, because Hana's name means flower in Japanese. 747 00:36:32,106 --> 00:36:33,274 [Reina] I mean, I think it really 748 00:36:33,357 --> 00:36:35,234 captures Hana, like... 749 00:36:36,152 --> 00:36:38,362 really well. I think it kind of... 750 00:36:39,238 --> 00:36:41,115 it's gonna bring people together. 751 00:36:41,199 --> 00:36:42,283 And... 752 00:36:43,034 --> 00:36:44,160 I don't know, I guess just looking 753 00:36:44,243 --> 00:36:45,369 at this design, 754 00:36:45,453 --> 00:36:47,205 it, like, makes you happy, 755 00:36:47,288 --> 00:36:50,291 which, I mean, she had a special talent of doing. 756 00:36:50,374 --> 00:36:54,503 It's making everyone happy, so I'm not crying, but... 757 00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:58,090 Yeah, I think it's really nice because... 758 00:36:59,133 --> 00:37:01,469 it's something that like we get to have a say in. 759 00:37:01,552 --> 00:37:05,932 And I guess it really means a lot to everyone. 760 00:37:10,269 --> 00:37:12,146 [Karen] Okay, I really don't remember 761 00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:14,232 the briefing on what's happening. 762 00:37:14,315 --> 00:37:15,983 -[woman] For the march today? -Mm-hmm. 763 00:37:16,067 --> 00:37:18,444 [woman] So there is national day of action 764 00:37:18,527 --> 00:37:20,905 for March for Our Lives across the nation. 765 00:37:20,988 --> 00:37:22,448 -Okay, now I know that. -Yeah. 766 00:37:22,531 --> 00:37:24,659 -I mean, just logistically. -Logistically. 767 00:37:24,742 --> 00:37:26,202 The first part will be speakers. 768 00:37:26,285 --> 00:37:28,204 And then the plan is to start marching 769 00:37:28,287 --> 00:37:30,581 at 10:30 to Oxford. 770 00:37:32,083 --> 00:37:36,045 [Karen] I have not attended any protests 771 00:37:36,128 --> 00:37:39,507 or announcements about gun legislation, 772 00:37:39,590 --> 00:37:42,551 but this march I think is really important 773 00:37:42,635 --> 00:37:44,303 because those are students. 774 00:37:44,387 --> 00:37:45,846 I'm not gonna tell them no. 775 00:37:46,931 --> 00:37:50,810 [all cheering] 776 00:37:52,687 --> 00:37:54,772 My little sister, Hana, was one of the four 777 00:37:54,855 --> 00:37:57,316 killed on November 30th at Oxford High School. 778 00:37:59,527 --> 00:38:01,487 People are killers as much as guns 779 00:38:01,570 --> 00:38:03,239 are enablers for those killings. 780 00:38:03,781 --> 00:38:06,909 My sister died because of the bullets in her body. 781 00:38:08,244 --> 00:38:11,330 I am calling on all of you to take action and demand 782 00:38:11,414 --> 00:38:12,957 that your political representatives, 783 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,042 regardless of party affiliation, 784 00:38:15,126 --> 00:38:18,170 immediately take significant and meaningful action 785 00:38:18,254 --> 00:38:20,715 to make changes necessary to protect us all. 786 00:38:21,465 --> 00:38:23,718 [Karen] It's a responsibility, I feel, 787 00:38:23,801 --> 00:38:26,178 to contribute to 788 00:38:26,262 --> 00:38:28,180 a solution that 789 00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:30,641 weighs heavily on me. 790 00:38:31,225 --> 00:38:33,269 Protect our kids, not our guns. 791 00:38:33,644 --> 00:38:34,645 Thank you. 792 00:38:34,729 --> 00:38:36,314 [all cheering] 793 00:38:40,651 --> 00:38:42,236 [Karen] A lot of people own guns. 794 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:43,654 I think they have a right to own guns. 795 00:38:43,738 --> 00:38:44,864 I grew up in a house where, 796 00:38:44,947 --> 00:38:46,657 you know, my dad owned guns. 797 00:38:46,741 --> 00:38:50,119 [all chanting] Protect our schools. 798 00:38:50,202 --> 00:38:52,830 [Karen] But owning a gun 799 00:38:52,913 --> 00:38:56,667 and gifting it to a minor 800 00:38:56,751 --> 00:38:59,879 and leaving it in a way that is so accessible 801 00:39:00,504 --> 00:39:02,965 and so grossly negligent. 802 00:39:03,049 --> 00:39:06,677 [all chanting] No more violence! Ban gun violence. 803 00:39:06,761 --> 00:39:08,888 It's just, to me, it's just common sense. 804 00:39:11,807 --> 00:39:13,976 [♪ soft instrumental music playing] 805 00:39:19,565 --> 00:39:21,901 [reporter 8] This morning, opening arguments expected 806 00:39:21,984 --> 00:39:23,778 in an unprecedented trial. 807 00:39:23,861 --> 00:39:25,696 Jennifer Crumbley facing four counts 808 00:39:25,780 --> 00:39:28,741 of involuntary manslaughter for her alleged role 809 00:39:28,824 --> 00:39:31,452 in the 2021 Michigan school shooting 810 00:39:31,535 --> 00:39:33,120 carried out by her son. 811 00:39:40,503 --> 00:39:42,088 -Good morning. -[woman] Good morning. 812 00:39:42,171 --> 00:39:43,756 [Karen] Anybody who does this for a living, 813 00:39:44,173 --> 00:39:45,716 if you're walking in the courtroom, 814 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:46,842 and you're feeling great, 815 00:39:46,926 --> 00:39:48,636 there is something really wrong. 816 00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:51,055 This is terrible, this is torture. 817 00:39:51,138 --> 00:39:53,140 This is I can't eat, sleep, 818 00:39:53,224 --> 00:39:55,559 I think I might throw up awfulness. 819 00:39:55,643 --> 00:39:58,020 [indistinct chatter] 820 00:40:02,233 --> 00:40:04,318 -Hi. I'm gonna need a minute. -[man 12] Yes. 821 00:40:04,402 --> 00:40:05,694 [Karen] Okay, thank you. 822 00:40:08,989 --> 00:40:13,244 [indistinct chatter] 823 00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:37,601 [Marshal] All rise. The Sixth Circuit Court for the County of Oakland 824 00:40:37,685 --> 00:40:39,061 is now in session. 825 00:40:39,145 --> 00:40:40,729 The Honorable Cheryl A. Matthews presiding. 826 00:40:41,522 --> 00:40:42,773 Morning. You may be seated. 827 00:40:45,985 --> 00:40:47,361 We're all here. 828 00:40:48,779 --> 00:40:49,780 [Shannon] You okay? 829 00:40:51,574 --> 00:40:52,700 [Marc] Good morning, everybody. 830 00:40:58,414 --> 00:41:01,750 I want to introduce you to Hana St. Juliana... 831 00:41:03,586 --> 00:41:04,628 Madisyn Baldwin... 832 00:41:06,464 --> 00:41:07,465 Tate Myre... 833 00:41:08,591 --> 00:41:09,592 and Justin Shilling. 834 00:41:11,927 --> 00:41:14,555 They died on November the 30th of 2021. 835 00:41:16,056 --> 00:41:17,433 We're here because 836 00:41:17,516 --> 00:41:19,059 when Jennifer looked at this drawing... 837 00:41:20,186 --> 00:41:22,104 she didn't look at it the way a stranger would. 838 00:41:23,439 --> 00:41:26,275 She looked at it knowing the context and the origin. 839 00:41:27,318 --> 00:41:30,905 And when someone with that kind of information looks at this... 840 00:41:31,530 --> 00:41:33,908 the unimaginable becomes predictable. 841 00:41:34,742 --> 00:41:36,327 It becomes reasonably foreseeable. 842 00:41:43,375 --> 00:41:44,835 On my way to court today, 843 00:41:47,379 --> 00:41:49,173 I blasted Taylor Swift 844 00:41:49,256 --> 00:41:51,717 to warm up my voice and calm my nerves. 845 00:41:52,885 --> 00:41:56,430 And there was a line in one of her songs 846 00:41:56,514 --> 00:42:00,935 that... summarized what this case is about. 847 00:42:02,269 --> 00:42:04,939 Band-Aids don't stop bullet holes. 848 00:42:06,690 --> 00:42:08,442 And that's what this case is about. 849 00:42:09,068 --> 00:42:11,070 It's about the prosecution attempting 850 00:42:11,153 --> 00:42:12,404 to put a Band-Aid... 851 00:42:14,114 --> 00:42:17,201 on problems that can't be fixed with a Band-Aid. 852 00:42:17,284 --> 00:42:18,994 [♪ instrumental music playing] 853 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,623 [Judge] Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give 854 00:42:22,706 --> 00:42:23,832 is the truth, so help you God? 855 00:42:23,874 --> 00:42:24,959 -Yes, I do. -Yes, ma'am. 856 00:42:25,042 --> 00:42:26,085 [Brett] I do. 857 00:42:26,168 --> 00:42:27,670 This is the 9-millimeter pistol 858 00:42:27,753 --> 00:42:29,255 that was used in the school shooting. 859 00:42:29,338 --> 00:42:31,006 I locked eyes. He didn't hesitate. 860 00:42:32,466 --> 00:42:33,634 [Marc] That's you at the top of the screen? 861 00:42:33,717 --> 00:42:34,718 Yes. 862 00:42:34,802 --> 00:42:35,844 [Kristy] That's when right there 863 00:42:35,928 --> 00:42:37,012 is when I know it's Tate. 864 00:42:40,933 --> 00:42:42,184 [man 14] I'm gonna show you a portion 865 00:42:42,268 --> 00:42:43,602 of that text message thread. 866 00:42:43,686 --> 00:42:44,687 Okay. 867 00:42:45,229 --> 00:42:47,231 Tell us what he wrote. 868 00:42:47,314 --> 00:42:49,316 [Edward] That I'm asking to go to the doctor. 869 00:42:49,608 --> 00:42:52,278 Then he says, my mom laughed when I told her. 870 00:42:53,153 --> 00:42:55,864 What is the moment that you're gonna point to a jury 871 00:42:55,948 --> 00:42:58,367 and say, that's the moment of gross negligence? 872 00:42:59,535 --> 00:43:03,038 The day of the shooting, the moment they're in the office, 873 00:43:03,122 --> 00:43:06,834 with their son, and being shown this drawing that he made, 874 00:43:06,917 --> 00:43:08,502 and they didn't say anything. 875 00:43:10,212 --> 00:43:12,590 "Blood everywhere. The thoughts won't stop." 876 00:43:12,673 --> 00:43:13,716 "Help me." 877 00:43:13,799 --> 00:43:15,384 And then making a decision 878 00:43:15,467 --> 00:43:17,261 once a counselor tells you, 879 00:43:17,344 --> 00:43:19,054 "We think he needs to get some help. 880 00:43:19,138 --> 00:43:20,306 Here are some names." 881 00:43:21,849 --> 00:43:22,850 We can't. 882 00:43:25,894 --> 00:43:27,771 [Marc] Now, describe Jennifer Crumbley's demeanor 883 00:43:27,855 --> 00:43:29,523 when she walked into your office. 884 00:43:29,607 --> 00:43:32,359 She sat down in the chair. 885 00:43:32,443 --> 00:43:33,444 Um... 886 00:43:33,944 --> 00:43:36,322 Felt a little bit distant. 887 00:43:36,822 --> 00:43:39,992 It felt like it was a little bit of an inconvenience to be there. 888 00:43:40,909 --> 00:43:42,369 [Marc] Well, first of all, did you communicate your hope 889 00:43:42,453 --> 00:43:44,204 that they take him home, to the defendant? 890 00:43:44,288 --> 00:43:46,999 I did not specifically ask them to take him home. 891 00:43:47,082 --> 00:43:50,294 I asked them to take him to get help 892 00:43:50,377 --> 00:43:51,587 and therapeutic help. 893 00:43:52,338 --> 00:43:53,672 [Marc] Nothing further. Thank you. 894 00:43:53,756 --> 00:43:55,633 [Shannon] When you saw the gun 895 00:43:55,716 --> 00:43:58,135 drawn on the sheet, 896 00:43:58,385 --> 00:44:03,307 that was not enough to make you believe 897 00:44:03,390 --> 00:44:07,936 that Mrs. Crumbley's son posed a risk to himself 898 00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:10,105 or other students, correct? 899 00:44:10,648 --> 00:44:14,193 [Shawn] I wasn't sure whether he posed a risk to himself, 900 00:44:16,028 --> 00:44:18,489 so that is why I called in the parents. 901 00:44:18,572 --> 00:44:20,866 If I believed that he was a threat to people, 902 00:44:20,949 --> 00:44:22,743 I would have taken different actions. 903 00:44:23,911 --> 00:44:26,205 On November the 30th, when you met with Jennifer Crumbley, 904 00:44:26,288 --> 00:44:28,207 did she tell you her son had texted her 905 00:44:28,290 --> 00:44:31,001 -that he was seeing demons? -No. 906 00:44:31,085 --> 00:44:32,836 That she thought Ethan was depressed? 907 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,631 -No. -[Marc] That she had never once 908 00:44:35,714 --> 00:44:37,883 set an appointment with any mental health professional? 909 00:44:38,509 --> 00:44:39,551 No. 910 00:44:40,219 --> 00:44:41,762 [Marc] Did Jennifer Crumbley tell you that 911 00:44:41,845 --> 00:44:43,931 she and her husband gave her son 912 00:44:44,014 --> 00:44:45,766 a SIG Sauer 9-mm handgun 913 00:44:45,849 --> 00:44:47,726 just four days before the shooting? 914 00:44:47,810 --> 00:44:48,811 No. 915 00:44:49,186 --> 00:44:50,270 [Marc] Nothing further. 916 00:44:54,775 --> 00:44:57,486 [David] We're at the end of day three of testimony. 917 00:44:58,153 --> 00:44:59,988 I think it's gone really well for our side, 918 00:45:00,072 --> 00:45:01,156 for the prosecution. 919 00:45:01,657 --> 00:45:03,325 I'm just scanning back through 920 00:45:03,409 --> 00:45:05,619 some of the testimony that I missed, in particular, 921 00:45:05,703 --> 00:45:08,122 looking for Shannon Smith's conduct. 922 00:45:08,205 --> 00:45:11,583 We were all stunned when she gave her opening statement 923 00:45:11,667 --> 00:45:15,963 and said that she was listening to Taylor Swift on the way in 924 00:45:16,046 --> 00:45:19,591 this morning to calm her nerves and warm up her voice. 925 00:45:20,050 --> 00:45:24,263 And it occurred to her that Band-Aids over bullet holes 926 00:45:24,346 --> 00:45:25,931 was what this case was really about. 927 00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:29,184 I hope Taylor Swift heard that, because that's really offensive 928 00:45:29,268 --> 00:45:31,937 um... and bizarre. 929 00:45:34,732 --> 00:45:35,733 [Karen] Um... 930 00:45:36,817 --> 00:45:39,194 Marc, do you wanna, do you wanna go through first 931 00:45:39,278 --> 00:45:41,363 -like, our outline for tomorrow. -[Marc] Yeah. 932 00:45:41,822 --> 00:45:43,240 We have 13 witnesses left. 933 00:45:43,824 --> 00:45:45,159 -We're about halfway through. -[David] Hmm. 934 00:45:45,242 --> 00:45:46,243 How many have you guys done? 935 00:45:46,660 --> 00:45:48,162 [Karen] Eight. We've done eight. 936 00:45:48,245 --> 00:45:49,747 -[David] Eight? -[Karen] Eight witnesses. 937 00:45:49,830 --> 00:45:51,039 That's it. 938 00:45:52,207 --> 00:45:54,084 [Karen] So let's talk about the photos 939 00:45:54,168 --> 00:45:55,419 and how we're going to handle that tomorrow. 940 00:45:55,502 --> 00:45:57,421 [Marc] So there's 55 photos 941 00:45:57,504 --> 00:45:59,006 that there's no agreement on. 942 00:45:59,089 --> 00:46:00,632 [Karen] And we're supposed to start arguing 943 00:46:00,716 --> 00:46:02,468 -about those tomorrow at 8:30. -[Marc] Correct. 944 00:46:02,551 --> 00:46:04,553 [David] There was a big debate at the end of the day today about 945 00:46:04,636 --> 00:46:06,305 um, showing photos of their house which was like 946 00:46:06,388 --> 00:46:07,890 just a complete, like, 947 00:46:07,973 --> 00:46:09,099 wreck because there's like 948 00:46:09,183 --> 00:46:10,768 booze bottles everywhere 949 00:46:10,851 --> 00:46:12,144 and, like, just clothes everywhere. 950 00:46:12,603 --> 00:46:14,396 Shannon Smith is saying, "Well, that's not relevant" 951 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,273 and it makes 'em look bad and 952 00:46:16,356 --> 00:46:18,192 You know, our thing is like, well, we can't change 953 00:46:18,275 --> 00:46:20,402 the condition of the house when the police got there. 954 00:46:21,236 --> 00:46:26,200 The level of chaos and lack of knowledge 955 00:46:26,283 --> 00:46:29,328 and what their kid was doing or caring, 956 00:46:29,411 --> 00:46:32,247 it was critical to this case and the state of his 957 00:46:32,331 --> 00:46:34,208 two, not one bedroom but two 958 00:46:34,291 --> 00:46:36,335 because one got too messy, he just moved to the next 959 00:46:36,418 --> 00:46:38,295 is absolutely relevant. 960 00:46:40,172 --> 00:46:43,091 Alright, cool. See everybody tomorrow at 8:30. 961 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,355 [Adam] At some point after we cleared the classrooms 962 00:46:56,438 --> 00:46:58,232 we were told to go to the old residence 963 00:46:58,315 --> 00:46:59,900 of Jennifer and James Crumbley. 964 00:47:00,526 --> 00:47:02,319 [Marc] So, what are we looking at here 965 00:47:02,402 --> 00:47:04,279 in this photograph, Exhibit 164. 966 00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:07,157 [Adam] I was made aware this was the shooter's bedroom. 967 00:47:08,951 --> 00:47:11,912 There was... targets visible on the wall that had... 968 00:47:11,995 --> 00:47:13,831 what was apparent to be bullet holes in them. 969 00:47:15,332 --> 00:47:17,209 [Marc] Okay I'm going to do another angle here. 970 00:47:18,001 --> 00:47:19,044 That's the same bedroom? 971 00:47:19,127 --> 00:47:20,128 [Adam] Correct. 972 00:47:20,671 --> 00:47:22,422 There was things all over the floor... 973 00:47:22,506 --> 00:47:24,383 things all over the place, really. 974 00:47:26,510 --> 00:47:29,054 [Marc] Now, is this the condition that this gun case 975 00:47:29,137 --> 00:47:30,597 and empty box of ammunition 976 00:47:30,681 --> 00:47:33,308 were found on November 30th, 2021? 977 00:47:33,392 --> 00:47:34,393 [Adam] Correct. 978 00:47:34,476 --> 00:47:35,727 [Marc] And that's on the master bedroom? 979 00:47:35,811 --> 00:47:37,354 [Adam] Yes. Yes. 980 00:47:43,986 --> 00:47:45,821 [David] I talked to Marc before I left 981 00:47:45,904 --> 00:47:47,781 and clearly, he was like, feeling... 982 00:47:48,699 --> 00:47:50,033 Like there's still a lot to do. 983 00:47:50,117 --> 00:47:51,702 [Karen] Okay, I need to call him. 984 00:47:51,785 --> 00:47:53,620 -[Marc] Hello? -[Karen] David said you... 985 00:47:53,704 --> 00:47:55,247 What are you saying about Meloche? 986 00:47:55,873 --> 00:47:57,541 [Marc] Okay, I don't think we should call him. 987 00:47:57,624 --> 00:47:58,876 [Betsey] What were the points that 988 00:47:58,959 --> 00:48:00,836 you were trying to score with Meloche? 989 00:48:01,712 --> 00:48:06,341 Meloche is a, you know, he's the boyfriend, she can't... 990 00:48:06,425 --> 00:48:09,261 Her cross is gonna be limited because she's... 991 00:48:09,344 --> 00:48:11,096 -They don't want it coming ou-- -She's... 992 00:48:11,179 --> 00:48:13,515 She sought to exclude all the evidence of the boyfriend. 993 00:48:13,599 --> 00:48:16,727 [Marc] An attorney like Shannon can feed 994 00:48:16,810 --> 00:48:19,479 on a witness like Brian Meloche. 995 00:48:19,813 --> 00:48:21,857 Yeah, we've given her nothing to eat yet. 996 00:48:21,940 --> 00:48:24,359 This is not a decision that the two of us are gonna make 997 00:48:24,443 --> 00:48:26,945 the night before, we... It is just not... 998 00:48:27,029 --> 00:48:28,780 It's just not, Marc. It's gonna... 999 00:48:28,864 --> 00:48:32,868 It's gonna have to be made with like people 1000 00:48:32,951 --> 00:48:36,622 who have slept and eaten dinner 1001 00:48:36,705 --> 00:48:38,916 and breakfast and sat around the room. 1002 00:48:38,999 --> 00:48:40,959 We're not gonna make this decision right now. 1003 00:48:41,043 --> 00:48:42,836 It's not the right, it's not the right thing to do. 1004 00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,923 Okay, um, so I'll see you at 7:30. 1005 00:48:49,051 --> 00:48:51,094 [court reporter] Jurors heard from a man first identified 1006 00:48:51,178 --> 00:48:52,846 as Jennifer Crumbley's high school friend. 1007 00:48:52,930 --> 00:48:55,015 During questioning, it was revealed he and Crumbley 1008 00:48:55,098 --> 00:48:56,767 had been having an affair. 1009 00:48:56,850 --> 00:48:59,353 [Marc] So the first message here would actually be 1010 00:48:59,436 --> 00:49:01,813 November of the 30th... 1011 00:49:01,897 --> 00:49:04,983 [Karen] The only reason that we called Brian Meloche 1012 00:49:05,067 --> 00:49:08,487 is that she told him that day 1013 00:49:08,570 --> 00:49:11,281 that she was worried her kid was gonna do something stupid. 1014 00:49:11,365 --> 00:49:13,492 You did tell the police in the interview 1015 00:49:13,575 --> 00:49:16,578 that she said she was worried he might hurt himself 1016 00:49:16,662 --> 00:49:18,121 or something like that, that was your actually... 1017 00:49:18,205 --> 00:49:20,624 -Your type statement. -Yes. 1018 00:49:21,333 --> 00:49:24,628 The only reason we ever fought 1019 00:49:24,711 --> 00:49:29,216 to admit evidence of that affair was to show 1020 00:49:29,299 --> 00:49:34,846 that there was so much time being spent outside of work 1021 00:49:34,930 --> 00:49:37,015 in those endeavors and it wasn't just one. 1022 00:49:37,099 --> 00:49:40,227 [Marc] Did you do know that you met her at a Costco 1023 00:49:40,310 --> 00:49:42,062 parking lot across the street from her employer, 1024 00:49:42,145 --> 00:49:44,231 and that would happen during the work days. 1025 00:49:44,314 --> 00:49:47,192 -Correct. Correct. -And during work hours. 1026 00:49:47,901 --> 00:49:50,237 -And was it a regular thing? -Yes. 1027 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,948 As a juror, as a mother, as anyone, you know, 1028 00:49:53,031 --> 00:49:55,784 does it matter to me that you were spending 1029 00:49:55,867 --> 00:49:58,870 all of this time outside of work during work 1030 00:49:58,954 --> 00:50:01,331 you know, engaged in all of that, then another 1031 00:50:01,415 --> 00:50:03,917 three and a half hours at the stable with the horses 1032 00:50:04,001 --> 00:50:07,379 you know, yes it does, because you know where you weren't? 1033 00:50:07,462 --> 00:50:09,256 Home with your kid or even checking in. 1034 00:50:21,018 --> 00:50:22,728 [Shannon] Hi, can you start by stating your name? 1035 00:50:22,811 --> 00:50:24,396 It's Jennifer Crumbley. 1036 00:50:32,738 --> 00:50:36,324 [Shannon] On the day after Thanksgiving, did you know 1037 00:50:36,408 --> 00:50:39,202 what James and your son were going to be doing that day? 1038 00:50:39,828 --> 00:50:43,331 [Jennifer] Him and Ethan were at the Acne firearm store 1039 00:50:43,415 --> 00:50:45,792 looking at guns. 1040 00:50:46,918 --> 00:50:48,128 [Shannon] Did they purchase a gun that day? 1041 00:50:48,211 --> 00:50:49,337 [Jennifer] They did. 1042 00:50:51,631 --> 00:50:53,133 He asked me if I wanted to go 1043 00:50:53,216 --> 00:50:55,427 to the shooting range with him and he never asked me 1044 00:50:55,510 --> 00:50:57,304 just me to go before. 1045 00:50:57,387 --> 00:50:59,389 I shot it a couple times and he did the rest. 1046 00:51:00,807 --> 00:51:03,602 I felt it was a fun day, I felt good about it. 1047 00:51:07,397 --> 00:51:08,690 [Shannon] Do you remember Tuesday, the 30th? 1048 00:51:08,774 --> 00:51:09,816 [Jennifer] Yes. 1049 00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:11,109 [Shannon] And we heard lots 1050 00:51:11,193 --> 00:51:12,611 of testimony already about you 1051 00:51:12,694 --> 00:51:15,322 getting a call from Shawn Hopkins. 1052 00:51:15,822 --> 00:51:21,119 Correct, he sent me a copy of a math worksheet. 1053 00:51:22,287 --> 00:51:24,039 [Shannon] What did you think when you saw that? 1054 00:51:24,581 --> 00:51:28,376 I was a little concerned, I was, I was pretty concerned. 1055 00:51:32,089 --> 00:51:34,216 [Shannon] What was it like walking into the meeting with 1056 00:51:34,299 --> 00:51:36,635 Mr. Hopkins and Mr. Ejak? 1057 00:51:36,718 --> 00:51:39,721 [Jennifer] It was pretty nonchalant, it was pretty brief 1058 00:51:39,805 --> 00:51:46,061 He told us that he didn't feel my son was a risk and actually 1059 00:51:46,144 --> 00:51:49,189 gave him the option if he wanted to stay at school 1060 00:51:49,272 --> 00:51:51,900 or go home, my son wanted to stay at school 1061 00:51:52,776 --> 00:51:54,861 and then I said I'm gonna go back to work. 1062 00:52:00,408 --> 00:52:02,577 [Shannon] Do you believe there were things 1063 00:52:02,661 --> 00:52:05,205 you were thinking at the time, I should do this 1064 00:52:05,288 --> 00:52:07,499 but I'm not doing it, do you look back 1065 00:52:07,582 --> 00:52:09,084 and think that? 1066 00:52:09,167 --> 00:52:10,752 No, I don't. I mean, I... 1067 00:52:10,836 --> 00:52:12,337 Of course, I look back after this all 1068 00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:15,465 all happened and, um, I've asked myself 1069 00:52:15,549 --> 00:52:16,967 if I would've done anything differently 1070 00:52:17,050 --> 00:52:18,969 and I wouldn't, no. 1071 00:52:21,596 --> 00:52:23,765 [Shannon] If you could change what happened, would you? 1072 00:52:23,849 --> 00:52:26,518 Oh, absolutely. I wish he would have killed us instead. 1073 00:52:46,246 --> 00:52:50,375 I think the prosecution has done an excellent job 1074 00:52:50,458 --> 00:52:51,877 of presenting their case. 1075 00:52:53,378 --> 00:52:56,840 But... [sighs] Who knows? 1076 00:52:56,923 --> 00:52:59,009 We're talking about a jury, 1077 00:52:59,092 --> 00:53:01,845 you know, there's 17 people 1078 00:53:01,928 --> 00:53:04,556 in the jury box and they each have 1079 00:53:04,639 --> 00:53:07,642 their own views and experiences, 1080 00:53:07,726 --> 00:53:10,020 and own interpretations. 1081 00:53:10,103 --> 00:53:13,607 Um, I hope that they see it similar to I do. 1082 00:53:23,033 --> 00:53:25,452 [♪ intense music playing] 1083 00:53:26,912 --> 00:53:28,538 [Marshal] All rise for the jury. 1084 00:53:31,750 --> 00:53:32,876 [Judge] Ladies and gentlemen, I've been informed 1085 00:53:32,959 --> 00:53:34,044 that you have a verdict. 1086 00:53:34,336 --> 00:53:35,795 -Is that correct? -[juror] That is correct. 1087 00:53:35,879 --> 00:53:37,756 [Judge] Could you please read your verdict? 1088 00:53:38,798 --> 00:53:41,343 [woman 2] On count one of involuntary manslaughter 1089 00:53:41,426 --> 00:53:44,512 as to Madisyn Baldwin, we find the defendant guilty, 1090 00:53:44,596 --> 00:53:46,097 of involuntary manslaughter. 1091 00:53:46,681 --> 00:53:48,850 On count two of involuntary manslaughter 1092 00:53:48,934 --> 00:53:50,435 in regards to Tate Myre, 1093 00:53:50,518 --> 00:53:51,811 we find the defendant guilty 1094 00:53:51,895 --> 00:53:53,605 of involuntary manslaughter. 1095 00:53:55,232 --> 00:53:57,609 A Michigan mother found guilty on all four counts 1096 00:53:57,692 --> 00:53:59,236 of involuntary manslaughter. 1097 00:53:59,694 --> 00:54:01,488 [reporter 9] After a day and a half of deliberations, 1098 00:54:01,571 --> 00:54:04,199 a Michigan jury finding Jennifer Crumbley guilty. 1099 00:54:04,282 --> 00:54:05,784 [reporter 10] The jury determined Crumbley 1100 00:54:05,867 --> 00:54:07,410 failed in her duty as a parent 1101 00:54:07,494 --> 00:54:09,162 by ignoring the signs of her son's 1102 00:54:09,246 --> 00:54:10,664 deteriorating mental health. 1103 00:54:10,747 --> 00:54:13,917 Jennifer Crumbley is the first U.S. parent 1104 00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,586 convicted of manslaughter over a mass shooting 1105 00:54:16,670 --> 00:54:19,172 carried out by their own child. 1106 00:54:19,256 --> 00:54:21,341 [reporter 11] It is a historic decision. 1107 00:54:21,424 --> 00:54:23,843 This is a landmark ruling, there's no doubt 1108 00:54:23,927 --> 00:54:26,930 that this will be seen as a very significant moment. 1109 00:54:27,013 --> 00:54:28,556 [woman 3] If you start using 1110 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,558 the Crumbley case as a precedent, 1111 00:54:30,642 --> 00:54:34,062 how many parents who are good parents 1112 00:54:34,145 --> 00:54:36,273 will get caught in this net? 1113 00:54:40,610 --> 00:54:43,238 [David] Getting ready for the second trial, 1114 00:54:43,321 --> 00:54:46,491 it's no longer a first, so it's a little bit different. 1115 00:54:49,119 --> 00:54:50,912 I think most, if not all, of the jurors know 1116 00:54:50,996 --> 00:54:52,872 that Jennifer Crumbley was found guilty. 1117 00:54:55,542 --> 00:54:57,460 It just changes the dynamic a little bit. 1118 00:54:57,877 --> 00:54:59,296 You understand that you are charged with 1119 00:54:59,379 --> 00:55:01,381 four counts of involuntary manslaughter? 1120 00:55:01,464 --> 00:55:02,465 [James] Yes. 1121 00:55:07,095 --> 00:55:10,890 -[♪ instrumental music playing] -[dog barking] 1122 00:55:18,231 --> 00:55:19,983 So, we're going to Oxford. 1123 00:55:26,573 --> 00:55:28,158 [Gregory] I'm Gregory Beaudry, 1124 00:55:28,241 --> 00:55:30,201 foreman for the James Crumbley trial. 1125 00:55:33,204 --> 00:55:35,415 So I guess East Street's right up here. 1126 00:55:38,418 --> 00:55:40,211 The Crumbley family lived there. 1127 00:55:45,091 --> 00:55:47,093 And the high school will be 1128 00:55:47,177 --> 00:55:48,928 right up here at the top of the hill. 1129 00:55:53,099 --> 00:55:54,517 [man 20] I appreciate you taking us. 1130 00:55:56,603 --> 00:55:58,730 Yeah, it's definitely a sad day. 1131 00:56:02,525 --> 00:56:05,111 The first thing I could think of was, uh, 1132 00:56:05,195 --> 00:56:07,238 how did a kid get a gun? 1133 00:56:09,032 --> 00:56:11,701 [♪ suspenseful music playing] 1134 00:56:11,785 --> 00:56:13,370 [reporter 12] James Crumbley will go on trial 1135 00:56:13,453 --> 00:56:14,996 following the conviction of his wife, 1136 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,082 Jennifer Crumbley, on similar charges. 1137 00:56:18,083 --> 00:56:20,001 [woman] All rise. The court is now in session 1138 00:56:20,085 --> 00:56:22,212 with the Honorable Cheryl A. Matthews, presiding. 1139 00:56:23,296 --> 00:56:25,590 I felt very strongly about what 1140 00:56:25,673 --> 00:56:27,300 my approach was going to be to this case 1141 00:56:27,384 --> 00:56:29,177 and what my defense was going to be. 1142 00:56:30,178 --> 00:56:32,931 I do believe what I'm fighting for in this case. 1143 00:56:33,473 --> 00:56:34,933 I've believed it from the beginning. 1144 00:56:40,605 --> 00:56:44,567 Alright, so we're gonna hear, um, openings. Prosecutors? 1145 00:56:44,651 --> 00:56:45,944 [Marc] Thank you, judge. 1146 00:56:46,611 --> 00:56:48,488 The shooter's case is done. 1147 00:56:49,197 --> 00:56:50,615 The shooter's mother, Jennifer Crumbley, 1148 00:56:50,698 --> 00:56:52,200 her case is done. 1149 00:56:52,659 --> 00:56:56,121 You're here to decide the level of gross negligence 1150 00:56:56,204 --> 00:56:57,497 of James Crumbley. 1151 00:56:58,289 --> 00:57:00,250 And you will learn throughout this trial 1152 00:57:00,333 --> 00:57:02,752 that he was the adult out of anyone in the world 1153 00:57:02,836 --> 00:57:06,297 in the best position to prevent these kids' deaths. 1154 00:57:07,006 --> 00:57:09,509 This nightmare, these murders, 1155 00:57:09,801 --> 00:57:14,180 were preventable by him, foreseeable by him. 1156 00:57:15,056 --> 00:57:18,476 [Mariell] For me, it boils down to reasonable foreseeability. 1157 00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,438 And whether or not James had knowledge 1158 00:57:21,521 --> 00:57:24,899 of what his son was capable of or what his son was planning. 1159 00:57:25,233 --> 00:57:26,901 This case is not about what happened 1160 00:57:26,985 --> 00:57:29,070 inside of Oxford High School. 1161 00:57:29,696 --> 00:57:31,489 This case is about what happened 1162 00:57:31,573 --> 00:57:34,325 outside of Oxford High School. 1163 00:57:34,409 --> 00:57:38,163 He had no knowledge that his son had obtained access 1164 00:57:38,621 --> 00:57:41,166 to the firearms that James thought he had 1165 00:57:41,249 --> 00:57:43,835 responsibly hidden and, and prevented 1166 00:57:43,918 --> 00:57:45,628 his son from having access to. 1167 00:57:45,712 --> 00:57:47,964 [indistinct chatter] 1168 00:57:48,631 --> 00:57:50,675 [♪ instrumental music playing] 1169 00:57:50,758 --> 00:57:52,385 [David] They started with opening statements 1170 00:57:52,469 --> 00:57:53,553 this morning. 1171 00:57:54,012 --> 00:57:55,346 There's an issue where 1172 00:57:55,430 --> 00:57:56,848 the defendant makes calls 1173 00:57:56,931 --> 00:57:58,600 from the jail, and those are recorded, 1174 00:57:58,683 --> 00:58:02,604 and the prosecution is allowed to listen to those. 1175 00:58:02,687 --> 00:58:05,064 He's made some statements that are 1176 00:58:05,148 --> 00:58:06,691 threatening to the prosecutor. 1177 00:58:07,066 --> 00:58:09,068 [James] Shit's fucking goin' down. 1178 00:58:09,152 --> 00:58:11,279 I mean, it's going fucking down. 1179 00:58:11,988 --> 00:58:13,406 When I get out of here, 1180 00:58:13,490 --> 00:58:15,575 I am fuckin' on a rampage, Karen. 1181 00:58:15,658 --> 00:58:17,577 Yes, Karen McDonald, your ass is goin' down, 1182 00:58:17,660 --> 00:58:19,621 and you better be fuckin' scared. 1183 00:58:19,704 --> 00:58:21,873 [David] So, this afternoon, at the end of the day, 1184 00:58:21,956 --> 00:58:25,668 I'm gonna ask that the judge cut off his jail communications 1185 00:58:25,752 --> 00:58:29,047 other than with his attorney or a clergy member. 1186 00:58:29,547 --> 00:58:32,008 [indistinct chatter] 1187 00:58:33,343 --> 00:58:35,178 [David] And, judge, I'm happy to do that. 1188 00:58:36,262 --> 00:58:37,680 [Mariell] Okay, Your Honor, my client is not 1189 00:58:37,764 --> 00:58:39,015 willing to agree to the order. 1190 00:58:39,891 --> 00:58:41,142 [Judge] Okay, so... 1191 00:58:41,226 --> 00:58:42,519 [Mariell] It's basically restricting his 1192 00:58:42,602 --> 00:58:44,395 ability to speak to people, judge. 1193 00:58:44,479 --> 00:58:45,647 I mean, it-it's... 1194 00:58:45,730 --> 00:58:46,856 It's a complete revocation, 1195 00:58:46,940 --> 00:58:48,233 except for counsel and clergy. 1196 00:58:48,316 --> 00:58:50,610 [Judge] I'm most concerned about him being able to talk to you. 1197 00:58:51,361 --> 00:58:54,739 [David] Right, we're asking that the communications be limited 1198 00:58:54,822 --> 00:58:58,284 to only counsel and legitimate clergy 1199 00:58:58,368 --> 00:59:00,078 during the rest of the trial. 1200 00:59:01,037 --> 00:59:02,789 Defense counsel? 1201 00:59:03,248 --> 00:59:05,124 -What? -[indistinct] 1202 00:59:05,667 --> 00:59:06,751 -No. Help me. -Okay. 1203 00:59:06,876 --> 00:59:09,170 Your Honor, he is not agreeing to the order. 1204 00:59:09,504 --> 00:59:11,548 [Mariell] May I speak with Mr. Williams for one moment? 1205 00:59:11,631 --> 00:59:13,424 [Judge] Please step out of the room. 1206 00:59:19,847 --> 00:59:22,183 [Mariell] I disagree with the prosecution's characterization 1207 00:59:22,267 --> 00:59:24,060 of those phone calls. 1208 00:59:24,143 --> 00:59:27,105 Some of the phone calls that the prosecution was claiming 1209 00:59:27,188 --> 00:59:30,316 were threatening in some way were from... 1210 00:59:31,317 --> 00:59:33,069 years before the trial began. 1211 00:59:33,903 --> 00:59:37,949 They seem more to be venting about frustrations involving 1212 00:59:38,032 --> 00:59:39,742 the prosecution and the fact that 1213 00:59:39,826 --> 00:59:41,953 James was still incarcerated. 1214 00:59:42,704 --> 00:59:44,831 It felt like the prosecution was trying 1215 00:59:44,914 --> 00:59:46,457 to make James look bad 1216 00:59:46,541 --> 00:59:48,042 by raising this issue 1217 00:59:48,126 --> 00:59:49,836 after the trial had already started. 1218 00:59:51,129 --> 00:59:53,089 [long sigh] 1219 00:59:57,010 --> 00:59:58,678 Look... 1220 01:00:00,054 --> 01:00:05,268 being in... the public eye in the capacity 1221 01:00:05,351 --> 01:00:09,355 that I am, particularly right now in this country, 1222 01:00:09,439 --> 01:00:13,735 is, comes with a giant spoonful 1223 01:00:13,818 --> 01:00:17,113 of threatening statements 1224 01:00:17,196 --> 01:00:19,490 and behavior. 1225 01:00:19,782 --> 01:00:22,493 If this were anyone else in my office, 1226 01:00:22,577 --> 01:00:28,041 I would be stridently, um, insisting 1227 01:00:28,124 --> 01:00:30,418 that it be brought to the court. 1228 01:00:30,501 --> 01:00:33,504 [♪ mellow music playing] 1229 01:00:36,007 --> 01:00:37,383 [Karen] Um... 1230 01:00:40,136 --> 01:00:43,640 She did not say hardly anything 1231 01:00:43,723 --> 01:00:45,642 about how the gun was stored. 1232 01:00:46,059 --> 01:00:48,978 She said, you'll hear that he didn't believe 1233 01:00:49,062 --> 01:00:50,438 that he had access. 1234 01:00:50,521 --> 01:00:52,732 But how will we hear that unless he testifies? 1235 01:00:53,066 --> 01:00:54,859 -Right. -[Karen] That is the curious thing. 1236 01:00:54,942 --> 01:00:59,030 Right? They never say, like, once, 1237 01:00:59,113 --> 01:01:01,699 oh, my God, like, how did he get this gun? 1238 01:01:01,783 --> 01:01:03,451 Which, like, if they were shocked... 1239 01:01:03,534 --> 01:01:05,995 Here's, here's what it is. I got it. 1240 01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:09,123 If they were truly shocked that he had the gun, 1241 01:01:09,207 --> 01:01:12,460 they would have expressed that shock to law enforcement. 1242 01:01:12,543 --> 01:01:14,212 They just would have. 1243 01:01:14,921 --> 01:01:17,382 And there was no shock. 1244 01:01:17,465 --> 01:01:18,758 -[Marc] Zero. -Zero. 1245 01:01:19,050 --> 01:01:21,260 [Marc] That's a good slide for closing. 1246 01:01:21,344 --> 01:01:24,347 Today is the part of the evening where I tell Marc... 1247 01:01:24,430 --> 01:01:25,473 What is it you're really doing? 1248 01:01:25,556 --> 01:01:26,891 Does it have to be done? 1249 01:01:26,974 --> 01:01:28,643 And you probably should go home. 1250 01:01:28,726 --> 01:01:31,646 I will spend only as much time as I need. 1251 01:01:31,729 --> 01:01:35,525 I am preparing for examinations for tomorrow. 1252 01:01:35,608 --> 01:01:37,193 And it does need to be done right now. 1253 01:01:37,276 --> 01:01:38,569 [laughter] 1254 01:01:38,653 --> 01:01:39,821 [Karen] Okay, you guys. 1255 01:01:39,904 --> 01:01:41,322 -See you tomorrow. -Goodnight. 1256 01:01:41,406 --> 01:01:42,532 Bye. 1257 01:01:43,241 --> 01:01:44,659 [Marc] Good job today. 1258 01:01:44,742 --> 01:01:46,994 -You too. -[David] Yeah. It's a good job. 1259 01:01:52,375 --> 01:01:55,378 [♪ instrumental music playing] 1260 01:01:55,628 --> 01:01:56,796 [Judge] Prosecutors, you next your witness. 1261 01:01:56,879 --> 01:01:58,631 [Marc] Ms. Cammy Back. 1262 01:01:58,715 --> 01:02:01,634 Have you sold a firearm to James Crumbley? 1263 01:02:01,718 --> 01:02:03,428 [Cammy] Yes. 1264 01:02:03,511 --> 01:02:04,887 [Marc] Whose responsibility it is to actually 1265 01:02:04,971 --> 01:02:06,180 make the gun statement? 1266 01:02:06,264 --> 01:02:07,515 The buyer. 1267 01:02:08,266 --> 01:02:10,560 [Brett] This is the pistol case that would've came with it. 1268 01:02:10,643 --> 01:02:12,687 There were no locking mechanisms in it when it was found. 1269 01:02:14,772 --> 01:02:17,442 The legal key is foreseeability. 1270 01:02:18,818 --> 01:02:20,903 When you think about what he knew 1271 01:02:20,987 --> 01:02:23,656 about the gun, about his son... 1272 01:02:25,658 --> 01:02:27,744 and then he sees that drawing... 1273 01:02:28,286 --> 01:02:29,829 what do you do? 1274 01:02:30,204 --> 01:02:34,959 And any responsible person is gonna do a couple of things. 1275 01:02:35,585 --> 01:02:37,628 They're gonna ask him what's going on, 1276 01:02:37,712 --> 01:02:40,089 and they would look at that drawing and say, 1277 01:02:40,173 --> 01:02:42,258 my, God, that's the same gun we just bought him. 1278 01:02:46,512 --> 01:02:49,515 It's easy to go in hindsight on a lot of things. 1279 01:02:49,599 --> 01:02:51,893 Um, based on what my concerns were, 1280 01:02:51,976 --> 01:02:54,312 I was concerned about student well-being. 1281 01:02:55,897 --> 01:02:59,192 We talked about hindsight and looking back at some of the, 1282 01:02:59,275 --> 01:03:01,527 what they might call the signs 1283 01:03:01,611 --> 01:03:03,070 when it comes to the shooter, 1284 01:03:03,362 --> 01:03:05,239 that those weren't considered signs 1285 01:03:05,323 --> 01:03:07,492 until after the shooting occurred. 1286 01:03:08,034 --> 01:03:10,036 Is it your decision to testify, 1287 01:03:10,119 --> 01:03:12,413 or is your decision to remain silent? 1288 01:03:12,497 --> 01:03:15,208 It is my decision to remain silent. 1289 01:03:15,291 --> 01:03:18,294 In James' case, the jury got to hear from him. 1290 01:03:18,377 --> 01:03:20,671 They got to hear from him on the 911 call. 1291 01:03:20,755 --> 01:03:22,590 [James on audio recording] My son goes to the high school. 1292 01:03:22,673 --> 01:03:24,967 I have a missing gun at my house. 1293 01:03:25,051 --> 01:03:26,677 [Mariell] Says he sees his son for the first time 1294 01:03:26,761 --> 01:03:27,762 after the shooting... 1295 01:03:27,845 --> 01:03:29,305 -Why? -[James] I love you. 1296 01:03:29,388 --> 01:03:32,642 I love you. I love you. I love you. 1297 01:03:33,893 --> 01:03:35,770 [Mariell] Those recordings allow the jury to hear 1298 01:03:35,853 --> 01:03:37,772 from James in those moments 1299 01:03:37,855 --> 01:03:40,358 when he's learning all of this new information 1300 01:03:40,441 --> 01:03:42,985 and-and hearing from him as it happens. 1301 01:03:45,404 --> 01:03:46,906 [Judge] Members of the jury, the evidence and 1302 01:03:46,989 --> 01:03:48,908 arguments in this case are finished. 1303 01:03:49,450 --> 01:03:50,910 Remember that you have taken an oath 1304 01:03:50,993 --> 01:03:53,246 to return a true and just verdict. 1305 01:03:53,329 --> 01:03:55,623 Based only on the evidence, you must not let 1306 01:03:55,706 --> 01:03:59,502 sympathy, bias, or prejudice influence your decision. 1307 01:04:00,461 --> 01:04:02,964 [Gregory] When we went into deliberation, 1308 01:04:03,422 --> 01:04:07,093 I, uh, first said, "Let's find out what we're at here." 1309 01:04:08,177 --> 01:04:09,512 We went around the table 1310 01:04:09,595 --> 01:04:11,722 and we come up with 1311 01:04:11,806 --> 01:04:16,018 nine guilty... two not guilty, and one undecided. 1312 01:04:18,229 --> 01:04:20,773 It wasn't easy. Uh, a lot of emotions. 1313 01:04:21,774 --> 01:04:24,735 And, uh, that's why it took over 10 hours. 1314 01:04:27,864 --> 01:04:29,949 [Karen] When we were waiting for the verdict, 1315 01:04:30,032 --> 01:04:32,368 Marc and I just left and ended up 1316 01:04:32,451 --> 01:04:34,078 sitting out in my waiting room. 1317 01:04:35,204 --> 01:04:36,622 We knew they were gonna stay till 7 1318 01:04:36,706 --> 01:04:38,958 and it got to be like 6:50. 1319 01:04:39,041 --> 01:04:40,585 And then we both were just like, 1320 01:04:40,668 --> 01:04:43,087 Ugh, God! Please. 1321 01:04:43,713 --> 01:04:45,923 And then he just said, there's a verdict. 1322 01:04:47,717 --> 01:04:50,428 [Judge] Ladies and gentlemen, I know you've worked very hard. 1323 01:04:50,511 --> 01:04:51,971 We've all been awaiting your decision. 1324 01:04:52,054 --> 01:04:53,931 I know this was a very intense 1325 01:04:54,015 --> 01:04:55,725 decision for you all to make. 1326 01:04:55,808 --> 01:04:59,228 Uh, I believe you've selected a foreperson. 1327 01:04:59,312 --> 01:05:01,188 Who's the foreperson? You are the foreperson. 1328 01:05:01,272 --> 01:05:02,773 Could you read the verdict, please? 1329 01:05:03,482 --> 01:05:05,735 [Gregory] Count one, involuntary manslaughter 1330 01:05:05,818 --> 01:05:07,737 as to Madisyn Baldwin. 1331 01:05:08,362 --> 01:05:09,697 Guilty. 1332 01:05:09,989 --> 01:05:13,034 Count two, guilty of involuntary manslaughter 1333 01:05:13,117 --> 01:05:15,202 as to Tate Myre. 1334 01:05:15,870 --> 01:05:18,664 Count three, guilty of involuntary manslaughter 1335 01:05:18,748 --> 01:05:21,375 as to Hana St. Juliana. 1336 01:05:21,459 --> 01:05:24,795 Count four, guilty of involuntary manslaughter 1337 01:05:24,879 --> 01:05:26,797 as to Justin Shilling. 1338 01:05:28,090 --> 01:05:31,093 [♪ instrumental music playing] 1339 01:05:32,762 --> 01:05:35,431 [metal clinking] 1340 01:05:46,817 --> 01:05:48,903 [Karen] No amount of years in prison is gonna make 1341 01:05:48,986 --> 01:05:51,948 their grief or pain any less. 1342 01:05:52,031 --> 01:05:54,241 It's not gonna bring anybody back. 1343 01:05:57,536 --> 01:06:01,082 What they want most of all is just accountability. 1344 01:06:04,919 --> 01:06:08,673 The thought that I would have... 1345 01:06:11,592 --> 01:06:14,762 put all of these people in that community 1346 01:06:14,845 --> 01:06:17,890 and all of these victims through this journey 1347 01:06:18,766 --> 01:06:20,935 and asked so much of them 1348 01:06:21,644 --> 01:06:26,857 and have it not be... successful 1349 01:06:26,941 --> 01:06:28,442 was almost too much to bear. 1350 01:06:30,236 --> 01:06:33,239 [♪ instrumental music playing] 1351 01:07:14,905 --> 01:07:17,908 [♪ intense music playing]