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When you think of witches
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is this what you see?
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As a little girl,
like so many little girls
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I wanted to be
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a witch.
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On grey winter days
I heard their songs in the woods.
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At night they danced in my dreams.
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I longed to join their secret rituals.
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I brewed potions from flowers and herbs.
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Wrote spell books
that I hid under my pillow.
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And I chanted
my desires over and over again
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trying to make something, anything, happen
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in my quiet little world.
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I read books about witches
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I saw them on TV
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but most of all
I watched them at the cinema.
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You girls watch out for those weirdos
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We are the weirdos, mister.
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I still remember seeing The Wizard Of Oz
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for the first time.
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From the moment Dorothy
stepped into that technicolour land
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I was spellbound.
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The Wizard Of Oz showed me that there are
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two types of witches.
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We have Glinda with her white magic,
her sweet temperament
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and her sparkling, traditional beauty.
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Are you a good witch or a bad witch?
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I'm not a witch at all.
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Witches are old and ugly.
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Only bad witches are ugly.
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And we have the Wicked Witch of the West,
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whose sickly green skin and evil demeanour
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has become an indelible cultural image.
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I'll get you, my pretty.
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And your little dog too!
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I wanted to be a good witch
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I couldn't understand
why any woman would choose to be bad.
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I didn't know then what I know now,
that being good or bad
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isn't a choice a woman
gets to make for herself.
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The Wicked Witch was supposed to scare us
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but she was also created
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as a warning for women and girls.
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Behave, and be beautiful,
or we will destroy you.
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Women have been taught
this lesson for centuries
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so that now
it is embroidered onto our bones
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mixed with our blood
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tattooed onto our beating hearts.
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It is in our culture, in all our stories.
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Women are pitted against each other.
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The virgin.
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The whore.
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The maiden.
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The crone.
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The good witch
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and the bad witch.
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It is a narrative
that is so successfully pervasive
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that we repeat it to each other.
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We police our sisters,
our neighbours, our friends.
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Slut.
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What did you say?
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You heard her.
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She's not wearing a bra.
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This vicious narrative
empowered those who are
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threatened by us
to believe that their fear and hatred
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of women is correct.
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That they are right to persecute us.
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A few months
after I watched The Wizard Of Oz
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I learned in school about the women
who had been murdered in the witch trials
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that took place across Europe and America
hundreds of years ago.
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Their stories haunted me.
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I became obsessed with them,
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carrying their names
around with me like charms.
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Reciting them to myself
when I felt anxious or lonely.
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Anna Moats.
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Elizabeth Clarke.
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Mary Scrutton.
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Katherine Grady.
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Mary Hicks.
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Isabella Rigby.
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Janet Horne.
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Ruth Osborne.
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Agnes Waterhouse.
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Elizabeth Device.
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Anne Whittle.
Jane Bulcock. Susannah Smith.
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Anna Moats.
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Some of those witches were
healers and midwives
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helping their communities
with their skills.
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Others were outcasts,
living on the edge of their village.
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And some of them had lost their minds.
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This resonated with me
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because I have always been stalked
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by the shadow of madness.
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As a child I made deals
with unknown forces
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believing certain behaviours
would keep me safe.
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At night I would talk for hours
to people who didn't exist.
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And I constructed worlds in my head
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that were so visceral, so solid and alive
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that I wanted to stay in them forever.
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As I got older,
I poured my madness into my work
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and found I was able to control it,
even use it.
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And I said goodbye to the witches
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letting them fade away into childhood.
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I was happy.
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I was safe.
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But that was just an illusion.
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Three years ago, I gave birth to my son.
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Within a month,
I was admitted to a psychiatric ward.
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The madness had found me again.
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And the witches?
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They were so close now
I could feel their breath
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on the back of my neck.
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As I shuffled from room to room
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I caught glimpses of them.
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Felt their bony hands on me
when I lay awake at night.
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They sung to me from the sea.
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Called me into the woods
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inviting me to join them.
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Until eventually
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I did.
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I've always been scared
to be ugly and messy.
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Scared to show my wickedness
and my weakness.
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But I don't care anymore.
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I need you to know how it feels
to lose your mind completely.
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I want you to see what I saw
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feel what I felt.
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So I'm going to drag you
into this spell with me
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because while I survived
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far too many
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have not.
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Pregnancy is a strange time
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at once mundane yet wildly magical.
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And looking back I can see
that this was when the madness
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started crawling towards me.
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As my body rapidly transformed
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the edges of reality began to blur.
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I no longer felt tied to the present
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instead existing
in some strange, liminal space
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connected to all the women
throughout history
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who had made this journey before me.
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The doors to the past
and the future were open
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And I felt like
I was walking between two worlds.
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Asleep and awake.
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And no one had ever told me
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being pregnant could feel like this.
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Films had taught me
I was supposed to be calm
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pretty
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soft and pink.
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What is it?
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It moved!
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What moved?
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The baby, it moved!
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But I didn't feel like that.
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I felt out of control.
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I was a storm
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wild and unmoored.
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I was a fire.
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And because of that disconnection
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I found pregnancy
an anxious and lonely time.
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I counted down the days
till it would be over.
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I couldn't wait to hold my son in my arms
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to feel his warm body on my skin.
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After his birth I was elated,
I was on a high.
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I couldn't sleep
because I didn't need to sleep.
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I was too excited, too mad with love.
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But then
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everything started to go wrong.
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What follows is my testimony.
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Thank you.
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Okay, so.
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my son was born on a Wednesday
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in a heat wave.
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and by the Sunday night,
I was starting to feel
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very strange.
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I remember my husband was holding our baby
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and he asked me to take him,
just for a minute
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and I couldn't.
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He was standing in the living room.
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And I remember I sort of started,
involuntarily
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backing away into the kitchen.
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I was just terrified.
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It was a fear that
I have never known before.
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I wanted to run away.
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We drove to A&E at midnight
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our son, tiny, in his little car seat
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and sat in this sticky
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sweaty room while a doctor
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I remember this really clearly
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because he had really red hair
and these bright blue scrubs.
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Dr Ben, he was called.
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He started asking me
a series of questions.
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In the last week,
how often have you been bothered
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by feeling down, depressed or hopeless?
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How often have you had
little interest or pleasure
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in doing things?
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How often have you been bothered by
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trouble falling or staying asleep,
or sleeping too much?
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I would become very familiar with
these questions
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over the next few months.
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How often have you been
bothered by feeling bad
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about yourself,
or that you are a failure
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or have let yourself
or your family down?
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After listening to me explain
how I'd been feeling
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Dr Ben said it was a classic case of
"baby blues"
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and that it would probably just
go away on its own.
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I went home and tried to carry on.
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I tried to hide how I was feeling
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but my mental health
was deteriorating rapidly.
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I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep
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and I was starting
to have thoughts of harming myself.
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One night I suddenly felt
an overwhelming urge
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to walk out of our house
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and head for a nearby bridge
that went over the motorway.
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I'd seen bunches of flowers there before.
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Faded photographs
with names written underneath.
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But I'd never been able to understand why
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anyone would climb onto the railings
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why anyone would jump.
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But now it was taking all my strength
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not to run there.
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We called the hospital and I remember
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the woman on the phone was so kind.
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She just kept saying,
I know, I know. It's awful.
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And she called me an ambulance.
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When the paramedics arrived,
I was sat on the sofa
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and I think by this point I hadn't slept
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for about ten days
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and I couldn't eat.
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I just physically couldn't swallow.
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It was five in the morning
and I wanted to die.
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And one of the paramedics was this guy,
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in his fifties or sixties.
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00:14:16,667 --> 00:14:20,417
And he took one look at me,
sat on the sofa, and he said,
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"Welcome to parenthood!"
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With, like, jazz hands.
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And I remember just thinking like...
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"Really?!"
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00:14:31,792 --> 00:14:32,792
This...
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This is normal?
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I'm supposed to feel like this?
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00:14:36,125 --> 00:14:38,000
It's supposed to be like this?
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He was a very nice man.
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He came to see me later
when I was in A&E to check up on me.
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00:14:48,250 --> 00:14:52,000
But him saying that,
at that point in my illness,
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really made me feel like
there was something wrong with me.
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Like I wasn't cut out for this,
that I didn't possess
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the requisite skills to be a mother.
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And it kills me to say this,
knowing what I know now
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and knowing how I feel about my son.
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00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,792
But from then on,
I really started to feel like
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I'd made a mistake becoming a parent,
and that everyone knew.
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And everyone could see it.
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Because we all know
what a mother is supposed to be like.
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A good mother is selfless
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her entire identity consumed by
her love for her child.
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She is immaculate.
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She is youthful, innocent,
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almost virginal in her purity.
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Her hair flows behind her,
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as she walks
through a field of wildflowers,
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breastfeeding her baby.
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She always smells of freshly baked bread,
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she wears long cotton dresses,
and no makeup.
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She glows with love from within.
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00:15:51,125 --> 00:15:52,292
She never questions her life.
267
00:15:52,417 --> 00:15:54,583
She feels eternally blessed and complete.
268
00:15:54,708 --> 00:15:55,917
She has at least three children
269
00:15:55,958 --> 00:15:57,708
for whom she is the primary caregiver.
270
00:15:57,750 --> 00:15:59,875
She is thin, attractive and stylish.
271
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,000
She is never stressed,
272
00:16:01,042 --> 00:16:01,917
never angry,
273
00:16:01,958 --> 00:16:03,750
she overflows with compassion, joy,
274
00:16:03,875 --> 00:16:05,375
and endless emotional resources.
275
00:16:05,458 --> 00:16:06,833
She is a mother and nothing else
276
00:16:06,917 --> 00:16:08,375
and that is more than enough for her.
277
00:16:08,417 --> 00:16:10,708
And she is happy.
278
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:17,083
I was now surrounded by perfect mothers.
279
00:16:17,250 --> 00:16:18,542
They were everywhere.
280
00:16:19,458 --> 00:16:20,750
I was nothing like them.
281
00:16:21,292 --> 00:16:23,750
I was more like the character of
Marlo in Tully.
282
00:16:24,167 --> 00:16:26,958
A film I'd seen before,
but which had new resonance
283
00:16:27,167 --> 00:16:30,375
when I watched it again at 4am
while trying to breastfeed.
284
00:16:31,208 --> 00:16:33,000
I was shocked by how much of it felt
285
00:16:33,042 --> 00:16:35,292
deeply, troublingly relatable.
286
00:16:36,167 --> 00:16:39,000
Marlo seems to be trapped in
her life with a newborn
287
00:16:39,167 --> 00:16:42,625
repeating the same three hours
over and over again
288
00:16:42,875 --> 00:16:45,875
losing more of herself
as every second ticks by
289
00:16:46,042 --> 00:16:49,667
until she is just a ghost,
who has forgotten who she once was.
290
00:16:50,417 --> 00:16:52,333
Her old life gone forever.
291
00:16:53,667 --> 00:16:55,125
I had finally found a woman
292
00:16:55,167 --> 00:16:57,917
who looked, behaved and felt like me.
293
00:17:00,250 --> 00:17:01,833
But her story didn't end well.
294
00:17:09,958 --> 00:17:12,167
And I was becoming increasingly suspicious
295
00:17:12,208 --> 00:17:13,750
that mine wouldn't either.
296
00:17:15,458 --> 00:17:16,833
As the sun came up
297
00:17:16,875 --> 00:17:18,500
I went back to the emergency room.
298
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:22,667
I was prescribed medication
to help me sleep
299
00:17:22,708 --> 00:17:23,833
and I did sleep
300
00:17:23,875 --> 00:17:26,917
and I started formula feeding
which definitely helped.
301
00:17:27,958 --> 00:17:30,625
Although, you know,
also compounded my feelings
302
00:17:30,667 --> 00:17:34,375
of shame and guilt
and that I wasn't an adequate mother.
303
00:17:35,417 --> 00:17:36,417
But that...
304
00:17:36,750 --> 00:17:40,708
that anxiety,
that doom just kept growing.
305
00:17:40,833 --> 00:17:43,958
And it was like this living,
breathing terror.
306
00:17:44,667 --> 00:17:46,333
And we didn't know what to do.
307
00:17:46,375 --> 00:17:48,333
We didn't know
what was wrong with me.
308
00:17:48,958 --> 00:17:51,167
And so it became
even easier for me to think
309
00:17:51,375 --> 00:17:53,167
"Right, everything in my life was fine.
310
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:54,750
"And then I had a baby
311
00:17:55,042 --> 00:17:56,917
"and now I'm in a horror film.
312
00:17:57,083 --> 00:17:59,917
"So it must be because of
the baby that I feel like that".
313
00:18:00,875 --> 00:18:03,583
At first I was able to push
those thoughts away.
314
00:18:04,292 --> 00:18:06,292
But the longer my illness went on
315
00:18:06,417 --> 00:18:08,875
the harder it became
to ignore the voice in my head
316
00:18:09,250 --> 00:18:11,542
that told me I was only in this situation
317
00:18:11,875 --> 00:18:13,500
because I had become a mother.
318
00:18:14,292 --> 00:18:16,875
My thoughts about my son
became more sinister.
319
00:18:17,542 --> 00:18:20,458
Maybe if he wasn't here any more
I wouldn't feel like this.
320
00:18:21,250 --> 00:18:24,000
Maybe that was what would finally end
this torture.
321
00:18:25,667 --> 00:18:27,667
I was so desperate that I started to fear
322
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:29,833
there was only one way
to make that happen.
323
00:18:31,917 --> 00:18:33,917
I didn't tell anyone about these thoughts.
324
00:18:34,958 --> 00:18:36,125
They were too evil.
325
00:18:38,167 --> 00:18:40,375
No one would ever understand me
326
00:18:40,417 --> 00:18:42,042
and no one would forgive me
327
00:18:42,083 --> 00:18:43,833
for thinking them.
328
00:18:45,833 --> 00:18:47,708
I knew what happened to women
329
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:49,542
who hurt their children.
330
00:18:53,042 --> 00:18:55,375
I knew how society treated them
331
00:19:00,417 --> 00:19:02,208
so I didn't dare tell anyone.
332
00:19:06,542 --> 00:19:08,542
Not even the doctors.
333
00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:18,167
Every day I would wake up with this dread.
334
00:19:18,333 --> 00:19:20,042
This doom.
335
00:19:20,083 --> 00:19:21,708
It was like being in
336
00:19:23,667 --> 00:19:26,667
excruciating pain, physical pain.
337
00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:29,625
And no one can do anything.
338
00:19:29,667 --> 00:19:31,500
There's nothing
they can do to take it away.
339
00:19:31,625 --> 00:19:33,708
Well, they can prescribe you medication
340
00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:36,000
and they can refer you for therapy
341
00:19:36,458 --> 00:19:38,792
but the counselling
342
00:19:38,833 --> 00:19:42,375
the waitlists for counselling in the UK
especially, are so long.
343
00:19:42,875 --> 00:19:45,458
And the medication can take up to
four weeks to work.
344
00:19:45,792 --> 00:19:47,042
If it works at all.
345
00:19:47,083 --> 00:19:50,667
It was...
It, it really was unbearable.
346
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,792
Before I got ill, my only awareness of
347
00:19:53,833 --> 00:19:57,958
mental health conditions
around childbirth came from films
348
00:19:58,583 --> 00:20:01,167
where it's very much "baby blues".
349
00:20:01,708 --> 00:20:04,333
"Due to changing hormones
over 80% of all women
350
00:20:04,375 --> 00:20:06,625
"experience postpartum depression".
351
00:20:08,167 --> 00:20:09,250
Well I'm not gonna.
352
00:20:09,292 --> 00:20:14,000
There's a woman
and she's got milk vomit on her sweatshirt
353
00:20:14,042 --> 00:20:16,792
and her hair's all a mess
and she can't stop crying.
354
00:20:17,125 --> 00:20:20,750
And she, like, calls her mum
and sobs down the phone for a bit.
355
00:20:21,083 --> 00:20:22,792
There he is!
356
00:20:23,542 --> 00:20:25,333
And then in the next scene, she's like
357
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,875
buying shoes or something.
358
00:20:30,375 --> 00:20:32,292
It really was
like living in a horror film.
359
00:20:32,583 --> 00:20:33,958
My house
360
00:20:34,042 --> 00:20:37,125
This home that had once
felt completely safe
361
00:20:37,208 --> 00:20:39,833
was now the scariest place in the world.
362
00:20:41,292 --> 00:20:44,208
It was visceral. I could...
363
00:20:45,833 --> 00:20:47,458
I could taste the evil in my mouth.
364
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:50,375
I know that sounds dramatic,
but I don't really know
365
00:20:50,417 --> 00:20:51,500
how else to explain it.
366
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:54,208
And it did feel like I was possessed.
367
00:20:55,542 --> 00:20:56,958
Like there were two versions of me.
368
00:20:57,958 --> 00:20:59,083
Good me...
369
00:20:59,167 --> 00:21:00,333
I'm glad.
370
00:21:00,417 --> 00:21:01,417
And bad me.
371
00:21:01,458 --> 00:21:05,125
I can't exist by myself,
because I'm afraid of myself.
372
00:21:05,583 --> 00:21:07,792
Because I'm the maker of my own evil.
373
00:21:08,625 --> 00:21:12,375
It's the strangest feeling
to exist in your life,
374
00:21:12,417 --> 00:21:15,083
in your world,
and all the pieces of it are still there.
375
00:21:15,917 --> 00:21:19,042
Your home, your friends,
your family, your partner.
376
00:21:19,083 --> 00:21:22,125
Everything is still there.
You can see it, you can touch it.
377
00:21:23,333 --> 00:21:25,167
But all of the colour and the joy
378
00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:27,250
has just drained away.
379
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,750
And things you never ever
thought would happen to you are happening.
380
00:21:36,583 --> 00:21:42,208
These once unimaginable scenes
are just unfolding around you
381
00:21:42,292 --> 00:21:45,125
and you feel so powerless
because there's no way
382
00:21:45,208 --> 00:21:46,333
for you to stop it.
383
00:21:47,958 --> 00:21:48,958
My friends,
384
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,417
my family, my husband,
they all did their best to support me.
385
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,667
But increasingly I began to feel like
I was a burden
386
00:21:58,292 --> 00:22:01,042
and that everyone would be better off
without me.
387
00:22:01,417 --> 00:22:02,750
My son included.
388
00:22:03,208 --> 00:22:06,417
I thought... I thought that if I did die,
if I did kill myself
389
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:08,208
they'd be sad, sure.
390
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:10,000
But they'd probably also be like,
391
00:22:10,042 --> 00:22:13,292
"Oh well, it's for the best.
Yeah, it's for the best"
392
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,000
I really, really believed that.
393
00:22:17,167 --> 00:22:21,000
I started thinking of ways I could do it.
394
00:22:21,042 --> 00:22:23,875
Not so much making plans, but definitely
395
00:22:24,042 --> 00:22:25,667
weighing up my options.
396
00:22:26,917 --> 00:22:30,167
And then I nearly stepped
in front of a van
397
00:22:30,833 --> 00:22:33,958
only stopping myself
because I didn't want to do that
398
00:22:34,042 --> 00:22:36,042
to someone else.
399
00:22:36,125 --> 00:22:38,792
I was just scared to be alone.
400
00:22:38,875 --> 00:22:41,667
I was even more scared
to be alone with my son because
401
00:22:41,792 --> 00:22:44,375
I didn't know what I might do to him.
402
00:22:45,042 --> 00:22:47,250
By now, my brain was playing
a constant loop
403
00:22:47,292 --> 00:22:48,917
of hideous scenes.
404
00:22:49,042 --> 00:22:51,917
I saw myself smothering
our son with a pillow
405
00:22:52,875 --> 00:22:55,625
dropping him
from a window on the third floor
406
00:22:55,667 --> 00:22:57,292
drowning him in the bathtub.
407
00:22:58,042 --> 00:23:00,542
And yet I loved him
more than I had ever loved
408
00:23:00,625 --> 00:23:02,417
anyone or anything.
409
00:23:02,625 --> 00:23:05,542
At night, I checked constantly
that he was still breathing.
410
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,542
Watching his little chest rise and fall.
411
00:23:10,292 --> 00:23:11,750
When he wasn't in my arms
412
00:23:11,792 --> 00:23:14,292
I missed him so much my heart ached.
413
00:23:14,917 --> 00:23:17,500
For the first time in my life,
I realised I could hold
414
00:23:17,542 --> 00:23:19,417
the good and the bad
415
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,167
in my heart at the same time.
416
00:23:21,792 --> 00:23:23,792
I could feel both at once.
417
00:23:24,417 --> 00:23:26,042
That was terrifying.
418
00:23:27,167 --> 00:23:28,917
I felt so alone.
419
00:23:45,125 --> 00:23:46,250
Throughout this whole period
420
00:23:46,292 --> 00:23:48,792
I was asking everyone I knew for help.
421
00:23:49,292 --> 00:23:51,542
I was posting on Twitter, which...
422
00:23:52,417 --> 00:23:54,375
Sometimes I regret posting on Twitter
423
00:23:54,417 --> 00:23:56,875
when I wasn't completely in my right mind
424
00:23:57,500 --> 00:23:59,750
but still, I was posting on Twitter.
425
00:24:00,542 --> 00:24:03,625
I was messaging all the parents I knew,
I was talking to
426
00:24:03,667 --> 00:24:06,417
women I'd never met
before on the phone about it.
427
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,792
I just wanted someone to say,
"Look, this is the way out.
428
00:24:10,042 --> 00:24:11,500
"This is how you get out of this".
429
00:24:13,583 --> 00:24:16,333
And then a friend put me in touch
with a WhatsApp group
430
00:24:16,417 --> 00:24:19,417
of women who'd had similar illnesses
431
00:24:20,667 --> 00:24:23,000
and that just changed everything.
432
00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:25,167
So my name's Shema Tariq
433
00:24:25,208 --> 00:24:27,458
and I'm a doctor
434
00:24:27,542 --> 00:24:30,417
and researcher based at
University College London
435
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:31,875
working in HIV.
436
00:24:32,042 --> 00:24:34,458
And I'm your friend.
437
00:24:35,542 --> 00:24:38,292
Can you just remind me
of how we first met?
438
00:24:39,125 --> 00:24:42,917
So we met in summer of 2020.
439
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,792
And you had just had Bertie?
440
00:24:45,875 --> 00:24:47,000
I think he was like, what?
441
00:24:47,125 --> 00:24:49,417
- Two weeks old, three weeks old?
- Yeah.
442
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:53,750
And you joined this WhatsApp group
443
00:24:53,792 --> 00:24:54,792
Motherly Love.
444
00:24:54,833 --> 00:24:57,000
Can you just introduce yourself for me?
445
00:24:57,042 --> 00:25:00,917
Of course.
So, my name is Milli and I am a mum of two
446
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,667
and I live in London.
447
00:25:02,833 --> 00:25:07,792
So, Motherly Love is
a peer support group for women who
448
00:25:07,875 --> 00:25:11,792
are struggling with motherhood,
and don't have a space to talk
449
00:25:11,875 --> 00:25:13,208
about the darker side of it.
450
00:25:13,625 --> 00:25:14,792
And we just started it,
451
00:25:14,833 --> 00:25:16,292
as basically, a cup of tea.
452
00:25:16,333 --> 00:25:18,042
Come and have a cup of tea and a biscuit
453
00:25:18,125 --> 00:25:20,208
with other women who don't feel that
454
00:25:20,250 --> 00:25:23,250
they belong
within the normal baby group world.
455
00:25:24,208 --> 00:25:27,833
They just, they got it,
and they took me seriously.
456
00:25:27,917 --> 00:25:30,542
And whatever fucked up thoughts
I was having
457
00:25:30,625 --> 00:25:33,792
someone else had had them too,
and they'd got through it.
458
00:25:34,042 --> 00:25:35,958
They'd survived, they'd been there.
459
00:25:37,417 --> 00:25:40,917
It became
this vital source of hope and support,
460
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,125
and just knowledge
461
00:25:43,417 --> 00:25:45,667
which didn't seem
to be accessible anywhere else.
462
00:25:46,417 --> 00:25:49,500
No one talks about how hard it is.
463
00:25:49,625 --> 00:25:52,417
Someone will ask you
how it's going and you're expected
464
00:25:52,458 --> 00:25:56,292
to say, "Oh, it's great, I'm really happy.
465
00:25:56,375 --> 00:25:58,500
"This baby is the centre of my world".
466
00:25:58,542 --> 00:26:01,125
And I, I didn't feel like that.
467
00:26:01,917 --> 00:26:03,917
When I had our eldest...
468
00:26:04,917 --> 00:26:05,917
Like... She...
469
00:26:06,708 --> 00:26:11,083
I was really unhappy in myself,
but I loved being her mum.
470
00:26:11,875 --> 00:26:16,167
But what started to happen was,
I started to have maternal OCD
471
00:26:16,292 --> 00:26:19,042
where I believed
that I was going to hurt her.
472
00:26:19,292 --> 00:26:20,292
And...
473
00:26:21,417 --> 00:26:24,292
it's such an uncomfortable thing
to talk about because
474
00:26:25,417 --> 00:26:27,792
I, every night I put her to bed
475
00:26:28,125 --> 00:26:31,667
I had these thoughts
that I would sexually abuse my child
476
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:33,417
and saying those words out loud
477
00:26:33,458 --> 00:26:35,208
I hardly ever say that to anybody.
478
00:26:36,292 --> 00:26:39,042
But it was the most frightening thing.
479
00:26:39,542 --> 00:26:41,792
And I never spoke to
a single person about it.
480
00:26:42,125 --> 00:26:44,875
And I would self-harm
because that was the only way
481
00:26:44,917 --> 00:26:46,500
to stop these thoughts.
482
00:26:47,833 --> 00:26:48,833
And...
483
00:26:49,542 --> 00:26:50,917
I just lived with it.
484
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:53,542
And it was just so--
It was torture.
485
00:26:53,625 --> 00:26:55,792
Why do you think people
don't talk about that stuff?
486
00:26:55,917 --> 00:26:57,500
Why do you think it is so hidden?
487
00:26:57,625 --> 00:26:58,750
People are scared.
488
00:26:58,792 --> 00:27:01,333
I think society is scared about engaging
489
00:27:02,042 --> 00:27:05,583
with these more difficult
feelings around motherhood.
490
00:27:05,792 --> 00:27:08,125
We want to feel safe,
don't we, with mothers?
491
00:27:08,208 --> 00:27:10,792
We like to think that mothers are
492
00:27:11,333 --> 00:27:13,792
the place of ultimate safety.
493
00:27:14,375 --> 00:27:17,125
And I think even when we're grown ups
494
00:27:17,375 --> 00:27:21,167
the idea that a mother
might not like her child
495
00:27:21,292 --> 00:27:23,792
is actually deeply terrifying.
496
00:27:24,667 --> 00:27:25,875
It's a sort of very...
497
00:27:25,958 --> 00:27:28,583
Sort of primal fear about engaging
498
00:27:28,625 --> 00:27:29,667
with those sort of
499
00:27:29,708 --> 00:27:31,250
with that darker side.
500
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,208
I was so scared to be honest with anyone
501
00:27:34,458 --> 00:27:36,208
about what was really going on in my head.
502
00:27:36,875 --> 00:27:38,875
I thought they'd take my son away from me.
503
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:41,125
But after Milli, Shema,
504
00:27:41,167 --> 00:27:42,542
and the other women in the group
505
00:27:42,667 --> 00:27:45,000
began to tell me about
their own experiences.
506
00:27:45,708 --> 00:27:47,708
It allowed me to finally be honest.
507
00:27:48,875 --> 00:27:50,167
And they didn't judge me.
508
00:27:50,708 --> 00:27:53,875
Instead, they responded
with love and compassion.
509
00:27:55,583 --> 00:27:58,292
They made me realise
how serious my illness was
510
00:27:58,875 --> 00:28:00,625
and that this was a situation
511
00:28:00,667 --> 00:28:02,917
which could have potentially
tragic outcomes.
512
00:28:03,875 --> 00:28:06,667
So when I told them
I was once again feeling suicidal
513
00:28:07,042 --> 00:28:08,500
they sprang into action.
514
00:28:08,792 --> 00:28:11,083
Do you remember that day
that you came to my house?
515
00:28:11,625 --> 00:28:14,417
Yeah, I do, very vividly.
516
00:28:14,458 --> 00:28:16,500
Partly because my husband was worried.
517
00:28:16,875 --> 00:28:19,750
He was like,
"You're going to go and just meet
518
00:28:19,792 --> 00:28:24,208
"a stranger who you know nothing about
519
00:28:24,292 --> 00:28:28,750
"who says that
she's really, really struggling.
520
00:28:29,417 --> 00:28:30,875
"And what are you going to do?".
521
00:28:31,542 --> 00:28:34,083
I was like, "I'm going
to pick her up and drive her to A&E".
522
00:28:35,625 --> 00:28:36,958
I was worried about you.
523
00:28:37,042 --> 00:28:40,500
I mean, I'd been worried
about you for a few weeks, actually.
524
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,292
And I was anxious
about whether you'd get taken seriously.
525
00:28:46,375 --> 00:28:47,375
So I remember
526
00:28:48,167 --> 00:28:51,792
in that drive, almost trying to coach you
527
00:28:51,833 --> 00:28:55,542
'cause I just wanted you
to get the help that I thought you needed.
528
00:28:56,042 --> 00:28:58,667
At the door to the hospital
Shema said to me,
529
00:28:58,958 --> 00:29:00,958
"You need to tell them everything".
530
00:29:01,917 --> 00:29:04,667
And there was an understanding
between us of what that meant.
531
00:29:05,292 --> 00:29:07,750
She told me that was
the only way to activate
532
00:29:07,792 --> 00:29:09,417
the next level of care.
533
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:13,250
I had tried so many times to get help.
534
00:29:13,292 --> 00:29:15,292
But it wasn't until Shema said that to me
535
00:29:15,375 --> 00:29:17,792
that I felt brave enough
to tell the doctors
536
00:29:17,875 --> 00:29:19,792
about the thoughts I was having.
537
00:29:19,958 --> 00:29:21,958
And when I did, they listened.
538
00:29:22,292 --> 00:29:24,792
You help so many people,
I see you do it all the time
539
00:29:24,875 --> 00:29:26,792
and you helped me, you saved my life.
540
00:29:26,875 --> 00:29:28,417
That group saved my life.
541
00:29:28,875 --> 00:29:31,542
So, thank you. Thank you so much.
542
00:29:32,208 --> 00:29:33,792
But isn't it sad?
543
00:29:33,875 --> 00:29:37,292
It's so sad, I think,
to think about our circumstances
544
00:29:37,333 --> 00:29:39,750
and how we met and that it took
545
00:29:41,167 --> 00:29:44,167
effectively a random stranger
to be the person
546
00:29:44,250 --> 00:29:46,000
to advocate for you, to say,
547
00:29:46,042 --> 00:29:47,292
"This is what you need to do".
548
00:29:47,667 --> 00:29:51,500
And for Shema and I
to be on the phone to one another saying,
549
00:29:51,583 --> 00:29:53,250
"We need to get her to hospital now".
550
00:29:53,708 --> 00:29:57,708
Why is it down
to average people doing that?
551
00:29:59,042 --> 00:30:01,125
Because if I didn't exist
552
00:30:01,167 --> 00:30:03,792
that group didn't exist,
who was going to do it?
553
00:30:03,875 --> 00:30:07,167
And that's just so, so sad
554
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,333
because there must be
so many other women who
555
00:30:10,667 --> 00:30:12,250
are going to slip through the net.
556
00:30:13,208 --> 00:30:14,875
It's really tragic.
557
00:30:17,917 --> 00:30:20,833
Two days after Shema drove me
to the emergency room
558
00:30:20,875 --> 00:30:22,708
for that fourth and final time
559
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,000
I was admitted to a Mother and Baby Unit
560
00:30:25,208 --> 00:30:27,542
which is a psychiatric ward
for new mothers
561
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:30,042
where their babies stay with
them in hospital.
562
00:30:30,667 --> 00:30:33,167
Walking onto the ward for the first time
563
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:38,750
I had a sort of dissociation with reality.
564
00:30:39,250 --> 00:30:40,917
This wasn't happening to me.
565
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,375
I wasn't really here.
566
00:30:42,417 --> 00:30:44,417
This wasn't my life.
567
00:30:48,417 --> 00:30:49,792
I had my son with me.
568
00:30:50,208 --> 00:30:52,042
He was asleep in his pram.
569
00:30:52,083 --> 00:30:53,292
But because of COVID
570
00:30:54,292 --> 00:30:56,667
my husband wasn't allowed
onto the ward with us.
571
00:30:56,708 --> 00:31:00,167
So we waved goodbye to each other
572
00:31:01,292 --> 00:31:03,375
from behind this really thick glass
573
00:31:03,792 --> 00:31:06,125
as they, like, locked the doors behind me.
574
00:31:07,167 --> 00:31:09,167
They showed me and my son to our room
575
00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:12,292
and I remember thinking it was quite nice.
576
00:31:12,375 --> 00:31:14,750
It was clean, it was quiet
577
00:31:14,792 --> 00:31:16,958
I could see the trees through the window.
578
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:19,667
And then another woman came into the room
579
00:31:19,750 --> 00:31:22,083
and she ordered me to open my bags
580
00:31:22,167 --> 00:31:26,042
and she, like,
snapped on these latex gloves.
581
00:31:26,125 --> 00:31:27,875
And she started
going through my belongings
582
00:31:27,917 --> 00:31:29,917
holding things up and saying,
"What's this?"
583
00:31:30,667 --> 00:31:32,708
They took away my cables,
584
00:31:32,958 --> 00:31:34,958
my dressing gown belt,
585
00:31:35,083 --> 00:31:37,000
any plastic bags I had,
586
00:31:37,792 --> 00:31:41,625
and my scissors, my tweezers
and my razors.
587
00:31:42,250 --> 00:31:46,542
Anything that I might use
to harm myself or my baby was confiscated.
588
00:31:46,750 --> 00:31:49,042
You asked for this?
589
00:31:59,333 --> 00:32:00,833
Are you gonna watch?
590
00:32:01,750 --> 00:32:03,083
'Fraid so.
591
00:32:03,375 --> 00:32:05,917
That's why there's so many
fuzzy legged women around here.
592
00:32:07,667 --> 00:32:09,417
And then they left me in a room
593
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:11,667
alone with my baby.
594
00:32:12,042 --> 00:32:14,833
And I freaked out because by this point
595
00:32:15,292 --> 00:32:17,958
my greatest fear was
to be left alone in a room
596
00:32:18,250 --> 00:32:19,500
with my son.
597
00:32:20,042 --> 00:32:22,833
The reason mother and baby units
encourage their patients
598
00:32:22,917 --> 00:32:25,042
to have their child
stay with them on the ward
599
00:32:25,125 --> 00:32:28,250
is so that they can bond
while the mother is being treated.
600
00:32:28,625 --> 00:32:31,167
This greatly increases
their chance of recovery
601
00:32:31,792 --> 00:32:33,625
which is wonderful.
602
00:32:34,792 --> 00:32:37,708
Unfortunately,
most of the patients on those wards
603
00:32:37,792 --> 00:32:39,583
are having
very negative thoughts and feelings
604
00:32:39,625 --> 00:32:40,625
about their babies.
605
00:32:40,667 --> 00:32:43,792
So most women do freak out at this point.
606
00:32:44,167 --> 00:32:45,292
The way I did.
607
00:32:45,542 --> 00:32:47,542
There's been some kind of mistake.
608
00:32:49,458 --> 00:32:51,167
I'm not supposed to be in here.
609
00:32:51,250 --> 00:32:54,625
After that, a member of staff
sat at the door to my room
610
00:32:54,667 --> 00:32:58,292
which was was wide open, by the way,
and they watched me.
611
00:32:58,583 --> 00:33:01,875
Every 15 minutes
someone would look through your door
612
00:33:01,958 --> 00:33:05,083
and write down whatever you were doing,
24 hours a day.
613
00:33:05,125 --> 00:33:06,125
So in the middle of the night
614
00:33:06,167 --> 00:33:07,875
you'd have
this bright light shining on you.
615
00:33:07,917 --> 00:33:10,792
And they'd be like,
"What's she doing? Oh, she's sleeping".
616
00:33:12,167 --> 00:33:13,542
Someone I'd never met before
617
00:33:13,625 --> 00:33:17,667
watching me wash, eat, talk on the phone.
618
00:33:18,167 --> 00:33:20,917
Hi, my name is Sawyer Valentini.
619
00:33:21,208 --> 00:33:24,000
I am at
Hyland Creek Behavioural Health Facility.
620
00:33:24,042 --> 00:33:26,167
I am being held here against my will.
621
00:33:26,625 --> 00:33:28,417
Please send help.
622
00:33:29,042 --> 00:33:31,833
Do you know how many calls
the cops get like that every week?
623
00:33:33,667 --> 00:33:35,125
Those are from crazy people.
624
00:33:35,875 --> 00:33:38,458
They watched it all
and they wrote it all down.
625
00:33:38,542 --> 00:33:40,917
I immediately felt like I'd made a mistake
626
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,750
and tried to bargain my way out.
627
00:33:43,083 --> 00:33:45,083
I told them I didn't need to be there
628
00:33:45,125 --> 00:33:47,500
that actually going home
would be the best thing for me
629
00:33:47,583 --> 00:33:49,417
that I wasn't really that ill.
630
00:33:50,167 --> 00:33:53,583
They told me I was wrong,
that I definitely needed to be there
631
00:33:53,792 --> 00:33:56,292
and that if I tried to leave
they would section me
632
00:33:56,333 --> 00:33:57,583
under the Mental Health Act
633
00:33:57,625 --> 00:34:00,167
meaning I would be detained
against my will.
634
00:34:00,792 --> 00:34:02,542
My rights stripped away.
635
00:34:03,250 --> 00:34:05,667
The reality of my situation hit me then.
636
00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:08,417
In only a month I had become
so unwell that I was now
637
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:11,917
trapped on a locked ward,
trying to convince a stranger
638
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,667
that I wasn't mad.
639
00:34:14,125 --> 00:34:16,958
When I knew in my heart that I was mad.
640
00:34:18,042 --> 00:34:19,917
And for the first time I thought,
641
00:34:20,458 --> 00:34:22,583
"I might never get out of here".
642
00:34:23,125 --> 00:34:24,917
I felt like a prisoner.
643
00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:26,917
We couldn't go into each other's rooms
644
00:34:26,958 --> 00:34:28,417
or touch each other's babies
645
00:34:28,458 --> 00:34:30,375
when we were finally allowed outside
646
00:34:31,042 --> 00:34:33,667
we weren't allowed
to meet up with another patient.
647
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,625
We were given our pills
in one of those little paper cups.
648
00:34:38,708 --> 00:34:39,958
And I remember thinking,
649
00:34:40,125 --> 00:34:42,583
"Oh, this is like
those little paper cups in films".
650
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,000
And then I met the other patients.
651
00:34:49,708 --> 00:34:51,792
They had wild eyes
652
00:34:52,042 --> 00:34:55,625
stained clothing,
they shuffled around in their slippers.
653
00:34:56,542 --> 00:35:00,167
Some of them were crying,
others glared, angry
654
00:35:00,625 --> 00:35:04,125
but most of them just looked
scared and lost.
655
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:07,542
Now I was surrounded by witches.
656
00:35:08,417 --> 00:35:10,625
They looked in at me through the window.
657
00:35:11,167 --> 00:35:13,417
They whispered
to each other outside my room.
658
00:35:16,417 --> 00:35:19,292
They swayed in the shadows, waiting.
659
00:35:20,167 --> 00:35:23,792
At dinnertime, I sat down
at a table and a woman
660
00:35:23,875 --> 00:35:26,167
I'd never seen before came
and sat down next to me.
661
00:35:26,667 --> 00:35:28,708
Hi, I'm Emily.
662
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:31,833
We were soon joined by another woman.
663
00:35:32,625 --> 00:35:34,833
Hi, I'm Jude.
664
00:35:35,375 --> 00:35:37,417
I felt an immediate connection to Emily
665
00:35:37,500 --> 00:35:39,667
and Jude as they told me their stories.
666
00:35:40,667 --> 00:35:43,208
I had had months of
667
00:35:45,417 --> 00:35:47,167
feeling
668
00:35:47,917 --> 00:35:50,292
progressively worse.
669
00:35:50,542 --> 00:35:52,542
There was one specific day.
670
00:35:52,625 --> 00:35:54,333
I'd asked my friend
671
00:35:54,458 --> 00:35:56,875
who is an A&E nurse, actually
672
00:35:57,917 --> 00:35:59,833
to meet me in the park.
673
00:35:59,958 --> 00:36:01,708
And I, I just said to her,
674
00:36:01,917 --> 00:36:03,917
"I don't recognise myself.
675
00:36:03,958 --> 00:36:06,166
"I looked in the mirror
and I don't recognise who I am".
676
00:36:06,375 --> 00:36:08,375
She said,
"I'm going to take you home now.
677
00:36:08,917 --> 00:36:12,042
"And I really think we need
to step this up
678
00:36:12,125 --> 00:36:16,667
"because if someone presented to me
in A&E like this
679
00:36:16,708 --> 00:36:19,875
"I would immediately
call the psychiatric team".
680
00:36:20,583 --> 00:36:22,458
What do you mean
you didn't recognise yourself?
681
00:36:22,542 --> 00:36:24,333
I looked in the mirror and I was...
682
00:36:24,417 --> 00:36:26,708
It wasn't me anymore.
683
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,542
I saw a person
684
00:36:31,083 --> 00:36:35,083
but I felt so disconnected to that person.
685
00:36:35,417 --> 00:36:37,125
I was... I was terrified.
686
00:36:37,167 --> 00:36:39,167
And Emily, what was happening with you?
687
00:36:39,542 --> 00:36:42,792
I think pretty much
as soon as my son was born
688
00:36:42,917 --> 00:36:44,917
I sort of stopped sleeping.
689
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,625
And progressively that became
690
00:36:47,667 --> 00:36:50,500
more and more sort of horrific.
691
00:36:51,708 --> 00:36:56,292
This building feeling
of wanting to escape.
692
00:37:00,542 --> 00:37:02,167
What sort of things were you planning?
693
00:37:02,208 --> 00:37:03,708
How were you going to escape?
694
00:37:03,792 --> 00:37:05,292
Maybe I could, like
695
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:07,875
get a train several hours away
696
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,917
and hide in a hotel and not tell anyone.
697
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,625
Really, really weird.
698
00:37:11,833 --> 00:37:13,125
And then I guess...
699
00:37:13,167 --> 00:37:16,375
also that became
a bit more desperate and darker.
700
00:37:16,458 --> 00:37:20,875
And actually, how can I just,
just literally escape.
701
00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:24,000
Talking to Emily and Jude did help
702
00:37:24,542 --> 00:37:25,792
but it wasn't enough.
703
00:37:26,917 --> 00:37:29,125
I needed to talk to people
who had suffered
704
00:37:29,167 --> 00:37:31,375
from these illnesses and recovered.
705
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,458
A friend gave me
the phone numbers of two women
706
00:37:34,542 --> 00:37:36,250
and from my room on the ward,
707
00:37:36,292 --> 00:37:37,750
I called them.
708
00:37:39,208 --> 00:37:40,792
Hi, my name is Krystal.
709
00:37:40,875 --> 00:37:42,667
I'm an Associate Professor
710
00:37:42,750 --> 00:37:44,500
at Manchester Metropolitan University.
711
00:37:44,583 --> 00:37:47,875
And I'm also a mum myself to
a little four year old boy called William.
712
00:37:48,667 --> 00:37:51,417
Hi, I'm Lucy. Lucy Warwick-Guasp.
713
00:37:51,667 --> 00:37:55,375
And I am one of two mums
to a wonderful daughter
714
00:37:55,792 --> 00:37:57,917
who will be nine in a couple of weeks.
715
00:37:58,250 --> 00:38:00,417
Krystal and Lucy had been
on different wards
716
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:02,167
a couple of years before me.
717
00:38:03,292 --> 00:38:04,958
Both of them were now doing well
718
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,125
and had used their experiences
in their work
719
00:38:07,333 --> 00:38:10,292
to help other women
who found themselves in a similar place.
720
00:38:11,833 --> 00:38:13,958
Another person I spoke to was Sophia
721
00:38:14,333 --> 00:38:16,667
who has never been
in a Mother and Baby Unit
722
00:38:16,958 --> 00:38:20,125
but has had experience
of postpartum depression and anxiety.
723
00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:23,000
She reached out to me
when she heard I was in the ward
724
00:38:23,042 --> 00:38:25,250
and was so kind and understanding.
725
00:38:25,750 --> 00:38:27,583
I felt very close to her.
726
00:38:28,833 --> 00:38:31,667
I'm Sophia Di Martino, and I'm an actor.
727
00:38:33,375 --> 00:38:34,750
And do you have children?
728
00:38:34,833 --> 00:38:35,917
Yeah. Two.
729
00:38:36,583 --> 00:38:39,583
I asked these women to tell me
about their experiences
730
00:38:40,167 --> 00:38:42,417
hoping I could use
their stories of recovery as
731
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:43,917
a kind of spellbook
732
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,500
to help me find a way through the storm.
733
00:38:49,250 --> 00:38:52,750
So can you just tell me,
how did your feelings
734
00:38:52,792 --> 00:38:55,917
of anxiety and depression,
how did they first manifest?
735
00:38:56,042 --> 00:38:58,250
I was really loved up at the beginning.
736
00:38:58,333 --> 00:39:01,833
After giving birth,
until my husband went back to work.
737
00:39:02,167 --> 00:39:05,167
And when it was just me
responsible for the child
738
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:07,750
things just nosedived really,
really quickly.
739
00:39:08,042 --> 00:39:10,625
I experienced very long labour
740
00:39:11,042 --> 00:39:14,958
so I was kind of
left quite traumatised really after that.
741
00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:18,083
And this then kind of continued.
742
00:39:18,208 --> 00:39:20,208
And I do remember speaking to
743
00:39:20,792 --> 00:39:23,583
my GP quite early on, saying, you know,
744
00:39:24,125 --> 00:39:26,750
"I'm crying a lot.
I'm still probably in shock".
745
00:39:27,042 --> 00:39:29,209
I think what
she was trying to do was ascertain whether
746
00:39:29,250 --> 00:39:32,417
I was experiencing postpartum psychosis,
which I wasn't.
747
00:39:32,625 --> 00:39:35,042
But then everything else
just kind of got missed.
748
00:39:36,542 --> 00:39:39,167
Looking back,
it was post-natal depression
749
00:39:39,292 --> 00:39:40,583
and anxiety.
750
00:39:40,792 --> 00:39:44,625
But it started off as,
like, a chronic insomnia.
751
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:46,917
I thought I was going to die.
752
00:39:46,958 --> 00:39:48,375
I remember asking the midwife,
753
00:39:48,667 --> 00:39:51,875
"How much no sleep
does it take to kill a person?
754
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,375
"Like can you die from having no sleep?".
755
00:39:54,417 --> 00:39:57,250
And she was like, "No of course not.
756
00:39:57,292 --> 00:39:59,375
"Of course you can't die
from having no sleep!"
757
00:39:59,417 --> 00:40:01,333
But I think you actually probably can
758
00:40:01,417 --> 00:40:03,417
because I felt my body
759
00:40:03,708 --> 00:40:04,875
like...
760
00:40:05,083 --> 00:40:06,250
giving up.
761
00:40:06,417 --> 00:40:08,625
I couldn't work anything out.
I couldn't work out...
762
00:40:09,125 --> 00:40:12,542
I remember lining up
my glasses in the morning thinking
763
00:40:12,583 --> 00:40:14,792
"If I put them there,
then I'll remember to put them on".
764
00:40:14,833 --> 00:40:16,500
You know, everything becomes like
765
00:40:16,583 --> 00:40:18,750
how do I navigate my home
766
00:40:19,667 --> 00:40:21,417
with a... with a baby as well?
767
00:40:21,458 --> 00:40:22,791
And I couldn't quite work it out.
768
00:40:23,667 --> 00:40:27,917
I had this sort of heartbreak
when my second child was born
769
00:40:28,042 --> 00:40:30,917
because I loved my baby so much, of course
770
00:40:31,042 --> 00:40:34,208
but I realised that I... Oh God...
771
00:40:34,292 --> 00:40:35,625
That I couldn't...
772
00:40:35,875 --> 00:40:38,917
be with my first child as much,
just me and him.
773
00:40:39,667 --> 00:40:42,042
And I was just heartbroken.
774
00:40:42,167 --> 00:40:45,375
The reality of being in the hospital,
away from him
775
00:40:45,667 --> 00:40:47,208
for a few days
776
00:40:47,917 --> 00:40:49,917
just... just broke my heart.
777
00:40:51,542 --> 00:40:53,125
And I was just
778
00:40:53,167 --> 00:40:55,375
desperate to not be on my own with him.
779
00:40:55,417 --> 00:40:59,000
So I'd be driving to my friend's house
780
00:40:59,125 --> 00:41:01,250
for a few hours just so
that I wouldn't be on my own
781
00:41:01,417 --> 00:41:04,375
and thinking desperately
how I would fill each day.
782
00:41:04,417 --> 00:41:06,917
But it just spiralled
and got worse and worse and worse
783
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,375
until I was admitted to
a Mother and Baby Unit.
784
00:41:10,125 --> 00:41:11,333
The other women on the ward
785
00:41:11,375 --> 00:41:15,542
were all fellow sufferers
of perinatal mental health issues.
786
00:41:16,417 --> 00:41:18,542
Some had been there for months already.
787
00:41:19,167 --> 00:41:22,042
Some had even given birth
while they were staying on the ward.
788
00:41:22,542 --> 00:41:25,167
Most of them had
anxiety and depression like me
789
00:41:25,250 --> 00:41:27,417
but some women had psychosis.
790
00:41:40,708 --> 00:41:42,292
This is Catherine Cho.
791
00:41:42,375 --> 00:41:46,125
The author of Inferno:
A Memoir of Motherhood and Madness.
792
00:41:46,458 --> 00:41:49,833
which details her experience
of postpartum psychosis.
793
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:53,375
Catherine wasn't on the ward
with me but she and her book
794
00:41:53,417 --> 00:41:56,292
have helped me
to better understand these illnesses.
795
00:41:57,958 --> 00:42:01,500
How is psychosis different to,
say, anxiety or depression?
796
00:42:01,667 --> 00:42:05,625
So psychosis is
a complete separation from reality.
797
00:42:09,792 --> 00:42:12,875
The wall between what
your brain is experiencing
798
00:42:12,917 --> 00:42:15,042
and all the memories and
the subconscious is broken
799
00:42:15,125 --> 00:42:17,125
and genuinely it felt like
800
00:42:17,167 --> 00:42:19,500
everything I'd ever experienced,
read about or
801
00:42:19,542 --> 00:42:22,333
known was being processed
at the same time.
802
00:42:23,542 --> 00:42:26,292
What kind of things were
you seeing during that psychosis?
803
00:42:26,542 --> 00:42:29,667
First it started with
seeing devils in my son's eyes.
804
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:32,750
That was the first indication
that something was wrong.
805
00:42:33,417 --> 00:42:35,333
I started seeing demons.
806
00:42:35,708 --> 00:42:38,000
I heard the voice of God talking to me.
807
00:42:38,208 --> 00:42:40,000
I saw a lot of figures.
808
00:42:40,083 --> 00:42:42,000
I felt them as well,
which is kind of terrifying.
809
00:42:42,042 --> 00:42:43,750
You could feel people brush past you.
810
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,333
The food that was given to me
looked like flesh.
811
00:42:46,375 --> 00:42:49,125
And I could see people preparing the flesh
and bringing it to me.
812
00:42:49,292 --> 00:42:50,958
My husband's face wasn't his own.
813
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,167
I saw, you know, robots.
814
00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:55,500
Basically a lot of just very vivid imagery
815
00:42:55,542 --> 00:42:57,417
and continually, devils
816
00:42:58,250 --> 00:42:59,417
and demons.
817
00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:01,500
The nurses looked like devils to me.
818
00:43:04,167 --> 00:43:06,167
I could feel them kind of pulling at me
819
00:43:06,250 --> 00:43:09,625
tearing at me, even though
I know now that wasn't happening.
820
00:43:09,875 --> 00:43:12,875
My husband took me to A&E
when he realised I was not well.
821
00:43:13,333 --> 00:43:15,208
I thought we were in purgatory
822
00:43:15,292 --> 00:43:19,542
and I could see people
pushing microphones, lights and screens
823
00:43:19,625 --> 00:43:21,875
and kind of laughing like,
this is really funny.
824
00:43:21,917 --> 00:43:24,250
And I was trying to convince him
that we were on a film set
825
00:43:24,292 --> 00:43:25,625
that we were in purgatory
826
00:43:25,792 --> 00:43:27,250
and we that needed to exit.
827
00:43:27,292 --> 00:43:29,667
And he was just like, "Be quiet".
828
00:43:29,750 --> 00:43:32,750
Can you tell me about waking up
in the psychiatric unit?
829
00:43:32,833 --> 00:43:35,542
I woke up in a blank room, a white room...
830
00:43:37,083 --> 00:43:39,333
with no memory of what was going on.
831
00:43:39,417 --> 00:43:40,708
I woke up alone.
832
00:43:40,792 --> 00:43:43,000
This was after four days of psychosis.
833
00:43:43,083 --> 00:43:46,542
And eventually, by the time
I'd been brought to the ward
834
00:43:46,958 --> 00:43:49,958
I had stripped off my clothes
and urinated on the floor.
835
00:43:50,292 --> 00:43:54,500
And they left me in there
to wake up after sedating me.
836
00:43:55,167 --> 00:43:59,333
It felt like I was in a film,
that moment of, where am I?
837
00:43:59,417 --> 00:44:00,500
What had happened?
838
00:44:01,542 --> 00:44:04,292
There was nothing for me to do
except to get out of the bed
839
00:44:04,750 --> 00:44:08,667
put on some clothes and step outside,
which is what I did.
840
00:44:10,292 --> 00:44:12,917
Catherine became unwell
during a trip to America
841
00:44:12,958 --> 00:44:15,458
and didn't have access to
a specialist Mother and Baby Unit
842
00:44:15,542 --> 00:44:16,542
like I did.
843
00:44:17,292 --> 00:44:19,375
Instead, she was separated from her son
844
00:44:19,458 --> 00:44:21,833
and treated on a general adult ward.
845
00:44:23,708 --> 00:44:26,042
So, most of the people
in the facility were
846
00:44:26,125 --> 00:44:28,083
homeless or veterans,
847
00:44:29,167 --> 00:44:31,375
people who had drug abuse issues.
848
00:44:32,417 --> 00:44:34,583
People who had fallen through the system,
essentially.
849
00:44:35,125 --> 00:44:37,208
Before you became unwell,
850
00:44:37,292 --> 00:44:40,042
what did you know about
postpartum psychosis?
851
00:44:40,125 --> 00:44:43,750
I did know the very famous case in the US,
Andrea Yates.
852
00:44:43,792 --> 00:44:46,667
But it wasn't until
I was recovering that I realised
853
00:44:46,750 --> 00:44:48,000
we had the same diagnosis.
854
00:44:48,042 --> 00:44:50,250
I didn't know that it was
postpartum psychosis.
855
00:44:50,875 --> 00:44:53,042
Can you tell me a bit about Andrea Yates?
856
00:44:53,375 --> 00:44:56,292
Andrea Yates, this happened,
I think, in 2001.
857
00:44:56,583 --> 00:44:57,958
She was a woman in Texas
858
00:44:58,125 --> 00:45:00,917
and she drowned
her five children in a bathtub.
859
00:45:01,458 --> 00:45:03,375
She was charged with murder
860
00:45:03,417 --> 00:45:05,875
and they were looking
for the death penalty.
861
00:45:06,292 --> 00:45:09,292
But it was her husband
who really stepped in and he said
862
00:45:09,333 --> 00:45:11,167
he didn't blame her for what she had done.
863
00:45:11,625 --> 00:45:15,000
But I think the general public
just didn't understand
864
00:45:15,042 --> 00:45:16,292
and was horrified.
865
00:45:16,417 --> 00:45:20,625
And she's still very much
a polarising figure in the US.
866
00:45:21,583 --> 00:45:24,625
There are just two Mother
and Baby Units in the US.
867
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:27,375
In the UK we have 22,
868
00:45:27,625 --> 00:45:31,542
which is in part due to
the tragic death of Dr Daksha Emson.
869
00:45:31,875 --> 00:45:33,500
A brilliant psychiatrist
870
00:45:34,042 --> 00:45:36,792
who lived only a few miles
from where I gave birth.
871
00:45:37,792 --> 00:45:40,417
Well, my name's Dave Emson
872
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:44,583
and I was the... husband to Daksha
873
00:45:44,667 --> 00:45:46,333
and the father to Freya.
874
00:45:46,917 --> 00:45:49,917
So prior to becoming a mother,
Daksha had been diagnosed
875
00:45:49,958 --> 00:45:52,958
with manic depression
and was on medication.
876
00:45:53,667 --> 00:45:56,125
How did her pregnancy affect that?
877
00:45:57,125 --> 00:45:59,375
So she had to be off her lithium,
878
00:45:59,417 --> 00:46:01,750
her antidepressant, and her thyroxine.
879
00:46:02,542 --> 00:46:05,875
And we were very lucky
'cause we conceived straight away
880
00:46:06,833 --> 00:46:08,833
and then miscarriage.
881
00:46:12,333 --> 00:46:14,125
We got pregnant again straight away
882
00:46:14,167 --> 00:46:16,583
and then another miscarriage.
883
00:46:19,708 --> 00:46:21,750
And all this time
she's off her medication.
884
00:46:21,792 --> 00:46:24,792
So it's almost like
that time bomb is ticking away.
885
00:46:26,042 --> 00:46:28,500
And in the end, you know,
the dream came true
886
00:46:29,292 --> 00:46:31,375
and she was pregnant with Freya.
887
00:46:32,875 --> 00:46:35,917
And then Freya was born.
888
00:46:38,375 --> 00:46:42,000
All fathers will know,
especially with a first baby,
889
00:46:42,042 --> 00:46:43,833
what a magical experience.
890
00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:46,542
Daksha was keen to breastfeed.
891
00:46:46,667 --> 00:46:49,375
So the couple agreed,
along with her psychiatrist,
892
00:46:49,792 --> 00:46:51,667
that she could stay off her medication
893
00:46:51,750 --> 00:46:53,458
for a further three months.
894
00:46:54,667 --> 00:46:57,667
We discussed her medication,
her signs, her illness
895
00:46:57,750 --> 00:47:01,167
before she got pregnant,
during and afterwards
896
00:47:01,250 --> 00:47:02,875
on a daily basis.
897
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,875
But it was in that last week
that I realised
898
00:47:06,917 --> 00:47:09,000
it was three months
that she's been breastfeeding
899
00:47:09,042 --> 00:47:10,792
and she's been off her medication
900
00:47:10,917 --> 00:47:13,458
and had three miscarriages before that.
901
00:47:14,375 --> 00:47:16,500
So I did mention to her that, you know
902
00:47:16,542 --> 00:47:18,542
it was probably time to go on medication.
903
00:47:19,792 --> 00:47:21,417
She didn't want to.
904
00:47:22,292 --> 00:47:25,167
Daksha was suffering
from postpartum psychosis
905
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,833
but no one around her knew.
906
00:47:28,500 --> 00:47:30,708
She was scared that if she told anyone
907
00:47:30,792 --> 00:47:32,917
then Freya would be taken away from her.
908
00:47:33,875 --> 00:47:35,792
And she was afraid of being stigmatised
909
00:47:35,875 --> 00:47:38,792
by her colleagues
if she told her psychiatrist the truth.
910
00:47:39,708 --> 00:47:41,500
The day Daksha and Freya died
911
00:47:41,750 --> 00:47:43,208
Dave had been at work.
912
00:47:43,917 --> 00:47:45,917
As I got to the front door
913
00:47:46,583 --> 00:47:48,625
there was a very, very strong smell.
914
00:47:50,042 --> 00:47:52,042
So I went to the kitchen,
Freya's pram was there
915
00:47:52,083 --> 00:47:53,583
but she wasn't in her pram.
916
00:47:57,958 --> 00:48:00,208
There was something on the table...
917
00:48:01,208 --> 00:48:03,042
an A4 piece of paper.
918
00:48:04,125 --> 00:48:05,875
I picked up the note and...
919
00:48:06,667 --> 00:48:08,500
I just read the first word.
920
00:48:12,042 --> 00:48:13,167
And then...
921
00:48:14,375 --> 00:48:16,375
I knew what that smell was.
922
00:48:18,125 --> 00:48:21,250
The day before
Daksha killed herself and Freya
923
00:48:21,917 --> 00:48:23,917
Dave had taken this photo of them.
924
00:48:26,583 --> 00:48:28,417
She was brilliant at hiding her feelings.
925
00:48:29,542 --> 00:48:31,542
So the photograph that I took
926
00:48:32,667 --> 00:48:34,292
big smiling face...
927
00:48:34,500 --> 00:48:36,500
she'd already planned it.
928
00:48:42,750 --> 00:48:45,667
The impact of
Daksha and Freya's legacy on cases
929
00:48:45,708 --> 00:48:48,042
like mine cannot be understated.
930
00:48:49,167 --> 00:48:52,542
Their story has been used internationally
to emphasise
931
00:48:52,583 --> 00:48:55,583
the importance of
perinatal mental health training.
932
00:48:58,875 --> 00:49:01,583
Why is it important to you
to talk about it?
933
00:49:02,542 --> 00:49:04,500
I have to do this.
934
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,250
I cannot allow my girls
935
00:49:09,500 --> 00:49:11,500
and other mums and babies
936
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,792
to die in vain.
937
00:49:19,333 --> 00:49:21,667
You know, what happened to Daksha was
938
00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:24,333
a complete and utter tragedy.
939
00:49:25,542 --> 00:49:27,875
And sadly, you know,
I've been involved in looking at
940
00:49:27,917 --> 00:49:31,292
the reports from her death
and from Freya's death
941
00:49:31,917 --> 00:49:34,083
and sort of learning lessons from...
942
00:49:35,875 --> 00:49:38,250
from her death and from Freya's death.
943
00:49:40,333 --> 00:49:41,875
And actually, you know...
944
00:49:42,542 --> 00:49:44,667
Gosh, I might get quite tearful... but
945
00:49:46,750 --> 00:49:48,667
for her... um...
946
00:49:50,583 --> 00:49:51,625
Sorry.
947
00:49:51,833 --> 00:49:55,792
That really shocked
the medical world when it happened.
948
00:49:56,458 --> 00:49:58,792
That a doctor, a very gifted doctor
949
00:49:58,833 --> 00:50:00,245
took her own life.
950
00:50:00,750 --> 00:50:05,583
And it made it very clear
to people that organised services
951
00:50:05,667 --> 00:50:07,042
that there is a difference between
952
00:50:07,125 --> 00:50:10,042
the way psychosis presents
in the normal population
953
00:50:10,125 --> 00:50:13,792
and how it presents
in the postnatal population.
954
00:50:14,083 --> 00:50:16,083
The condition comes on faster.
955
00:50:16,708 --> 00:50:18,708
Presentations can change within minutes
956
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:20,292
whereas in the general population
957
00:50:20,333 --> 00:50:23,000
it could take weeks to months
to see the same changes.
958
00:50:23,250 --> 00:50:25,417
It's considered a psychiatric emergency.
959
00:50:25,958 --> 00:50:27,167
We don't have many of them.
960
00:50:27,417 --> 00:50:29,750
As the years go on I sort of often think
961
00:50:30,792 --> 00:50:32,792
what state of mind she must have been in
962
00:50:32,875 --> 00:50:34,917
to have been so psychotic.
963
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,125
I don't know...
964
00:50:37,167 --> 00:50:39,083
I have no idea
what was going on in her head.
965
00:50:39,250 --> 00:50:40,917
And no one will know.
966
00:50:41,375 --> 00:50:43,375
Her husband won't know. Nobody will know.
967
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:48,375
But to have got
to that point of psychosis where
968
00:50:49,125 --> 00:50:50,708
that was the exit route
969
00:50:52,125 --> 00:50:54,125
whether it was for...
970
00:50:55,375 --> 00:50:57,708
Through the psychosis,
she thought she was saving
971
00:50:57,792 --> 00:50:59,875
herself and Freya, I don't know.
972
00:51:00,708 --> 00:51:01,708
I don't know.
973
00:51:02,083 --> 00:51:05,750
It has been over 20 years
since Daksha and Freya died.
974
00:51:06,167 --> 00:51:08,417
But what happened
to them is still happening.
975
00:51:09,625 --> 00:51:13,625
So in 2000,
one of the factors that shocked the UK
976
00:51:13,667 --> 00:51:15,000
and more globally
977
00:51:15,042 --> 00:51:19,500
was the fact that suicide was
a leading cause of death
978
00:51:20,042 --> 00:51:22,542
in the pregnancy period
and just afterwards.
979
00:51:22,750 --> 00:51:26,125
And in November last year, 2022
980
00:51:26,542 --> 00:51:29,458
we had the latest triennial report.
981
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:30,500
And guess what?
982
00:51:30,542 --> 00:51:36,000
Suicide is still a leading cause
of maternal death in the UK.
983
00:51:36,208 --> 00:51:37,875
So nothing has changed.
984
00:51:37,917 --> 00:51:41,042
In fact,
the awful statistic from last year is that
985
00:51:41,917 --> 00:51:44,167
the rates of suicide
have actually gone up.
986
00:51:44,667 --> 00:51:47,417
Even with the expansion of services
987
00:51:47,917 --> 00:51:48,917
there are gaps
988
00:51:48,958 --> 00:51:51,333
in women coming through
the door in the first place.
989
00:51:51,792 --> 00:51:54,292
You've got all these women
who wouldn't even dare
990
00:51:54,625 --> 00:51:57,833
tell their GP or their midwife
or their social worker
991
00:51:57,917 --> 00:51:59,875
whoever it is, that they're suffering
992
00:51:59,917 --> 00:52:01,750
because they're worried what might happen.
993
00:52:04,083 --> 00:52:07,042
One of the most common things
that we get in our service is,
994
00:52:07,125 --> 00:52:10,167
"Oh I was worried that if my GP
referred me to you
995
00:52:10,208 --> 00:52:11,875
"that you'd take my baby away".
996
00:52:12,250 --> 00:52:14,833
I can count on one hand
the number of women who've
997
00:52:14,917 --> 00:52:16,750
had their children removed.
998
00:52:17,167 --> 00:52:20,417
And I've treated thousands
and thousands of women.
999
00:52:20,583 --> 00:52:22,375
There's a stigma around mental health
1000
00:52:22,500 --> 00:52:25,500
but the stigma around motherhood
is huge as well.
1001
00:52:25,583 --> 00:52:27,583
To say you're not a good mother
1002
00:52:27,667 --> 00:52:29,292
is probably the worst insult
1003
00:52:29,375 --> 00:52:31,167
a woman would ever hear in their life.
1004
00:52:31,667 --> 00:52:33,083
It cuts very deep.
1005
00:52:33,375 --> 00:52:37,167
So there's this idea
that being referred to somebody "like us"
1006
00:52:37,250 --> 00:52:38,708
or someone like me
1007
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,000
this internal idea of
1008
00:52:41,042 --> 00:52:42,167
"Am I a failure?"
1009
00:52:42,250 --> 00:52:44,250
"Am I not a good mum?"
1010
00:52:44,667 --> 00:52:46,042
And I think women
1011
00:52:46,083 --> 00:52:48,333
struggle with that even
before they get through the door.
1012
00:52:49,083 --> 00:52:51,083
Do you ever feel guilty as a mother?
1013
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:57,458
I think I feel guilty
as a mother a lot of the time.
1014
00:52:58,125 --> 00:52:59,333
The moment
1015
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:02,417
you find out you're pregnant,
the guilt begins
1016
00:53:03,750 --> 00:53:05,750
and I don't think it ever stops.
1017
00:53:05,833 --> 00:53:09,750
There's so many pressures
and so many expectations.
1018
00:53:10,083 --> 00:53:11,333
Am I doing enough?
1019
00:53:11,375 --> 00:53:13,708
Have I given them enough time
or enough space?
1020
00:53:13,792 --> 00:53:15,875
Am I providing for them in all the ways
1021
00:53:15,917 --> 00:53:18,042
that I should be or could be?
1022
00:53:18,583 --> 00:53:19,792
Feel guilty about working.
1023
00:53:19,875 --> 00:53:21,083
Feel guilty about not working.
1024
00:53:21,125 --> 00:53:22,250
Feel guilty about
1025
00:53:22,333 --> 00:53:24,958
spending too much time with one child
1026
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,083
and not the other child.
1027
00:53:26,125 --> 00:53:28,750
Feel guilty about not spending enough time
with your children.
1028
00:53:28,792 --> 00:53:30,959
Feel guilty about not spending enough time
on yourself.
1029
00:53:31,125 --> 00:53:35,125
And there's a lot of shame as well, around
1030
00:53:36,417 --> 00:53:37,583
being a mum and not...
1031
00:53:37,917 --> 00:53:41,292
People not wanting to show the messy bits.
1032
00:53:41,750 --> 00:53:44,167
And there's a lot of shame around
1033
00:53:44,250 --> 00:53:46,167
being ill after having a child.
1034
00:53:46,292 --> 00:53:48,042
There is a lot of shame around that.
1035
00:53:48,375 --> 00:53:51,083
Why do you think you were scared
1036
00:53:51,167 --> 00:53:53,917
or you didn't tell people
that you were going into the unit?
1037
00:53:54,458 --> 00:53:56,958
Well, it is, it's just all that judgement.
1038
00:53:57,583 --> 00:53:59,583
Didn't want people to think
1039
00:54:00,583 --> 00:54:02,250
badly of me
1040
00:54:02,792 --> 00:54:04,542
that I'd been a failure.
1041
00:54:05,583 --> 00:54:06,583
Yeah.
1042
00:54:07,375 --> 00:54:09,375
And I do remember
there was two other women
1043
00:54:09,417 --> 00:54:12,708
who had babies that were
the same age as our daughter
1044
00:54:13,458 --> 00:54:15,417
and one of them
had friends visit and things
1045
00:54:15,458 --> 00:54:17,458
and I was like, "God that's brave".
1046
00:54:19,083 --> 00:54:20,083
I hid from my friends.
1047
00:54:20,125 --> 00:54:22,375
So I remember in the Mother and Baby Unit
my friends turned up
1048
00:54:22,458 --> 00:54:23,958
and they'd just come to see me
1049
00:54:24,042 --> 00:54:25,667
and I was like, "I can't see them"
1050
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,000
because I just
didn't feel like me anymore.
1051
00:54:28,750 --> 00:54:31,375
What am I gonna say to them, you know?
When they're sat there, like
1052
00:54:31,417 --> 00:54:33,417
I can't make small talk because
1053
00:54:33,958 --> 00:54:36,292
they've come to see
their friend and their friend's gone.
1054
00:54:38,125 --> 00:54:41,708
So that guilt and shame that you felt,
which I felt
1055
00:54:41,750 --> 00:54:45,792
which seems to be almost universal
when it comes to motherhood.
1056
00:54:46,875 --> 00:54:48,875
Where do you think that comes from?
1057
00:54:50,708 --> 00:54:52,000
I don't know. I wish I knew
1058
00:54:52,042 --> 00:54:54,542
because I'd find it
and I'd fucking get rid of it.
1059
00:54:54,583 --> 00:54:55,583
I don't know.
1060
00:54:55,625 --> 00:54:57,708
It just must be a subconscious
1061
00:54:58,875 --> 00:55:02,417
societal thing that is drip fed into us
1062
00:55:02,458 --> 00:55:05,083
since being born.
1063
00:55:06,875 --> 00:55:08,875
I don't know, do you know?
1064
00:55:09,542 --> 00:55:12,167
Maybe women don't want
to talk about the dark thoughts
1065
00:55:12,208 --> 00:55:13,833
and feelings we have
1066
00:55:13,917 --> 00:55:16,417
because we don't want to be
the wicked witch.
1067
00:55:17,250 --> 00:55:19,250
Or maybe it goes back even further
1068
00:55:19,542 --> 00:55:21,500
to the women who were accused as witches
1069
00:55:21,542 --> 00:55:23,458
hundreds of years ago.
1070
00:55:23,667 --> 00:55:25,625
The ones I read about in school
1071
00:55:25,667 --> 00:55:28,625
the women whose names
went round and round my head.
1072
00:55:48,083 --> 00:55:49,167
Wow this is heavy.
1073
00:55:50,792 --> 00:55:52,958
So these are testimonies
of women who confessed
1074
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,042
to being witches
in the 15th and 16th century.
1075
00:55:56,208 --> 00:55:57,417
Wow.
1076
00:55:57,708 --> 00:55:59,542
Okay, and just read them one by one?
1077
00:56:00,125 --> 00:56:01,125
Okay.
1078
00:56:01,167 --> 00:56:04,458
Anna Moats confessed
within two hours of her arrest
1079
00:56:04,542 --> 00:56:06,792
saying the devil appeared
to her when she was alone
1080
00:56:06,833 --> 00:56:10,125
in her house,
cursing her husband and children.
1081
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,042
Mary Scrutton confessed
that the devil appeared to her twice
1082
00:56:14,083 --> 00:56:15,250
once as a bear
1083
00:56:15,500 --> 00:56:16,750
then again as a cat
1084
00:56:16,958 --> 00:56:21,417
and tempted Mary
in a hollow voice to kill her child.
1085
00:56:23,292 --> 00:56:25,708
Susannah Smith confessed
the day after her arrest
1086
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,917
that eighteen years previously
1087
00:56:28,125 --> 00:56:30,792
the devil had appeared
to her in the form of a red dog
1088
00:56:31,125 --> 00:56:33,125
and tempted her to kill her children.
1089
00:56:34,750 --> 00:56:37,500
Priscilla Collitt confessed
that the devil had appeared
1090
00:56:37,583 --> 00:56:40,042
to her when she was sick
some twelve years previously
1091
00:56:40,125 --> 00:56:43,125
and tempted her to kill
her children to escape poverty.
1092
00:56:44,792 --> 00:56:47,500
She placed one of her children
next to the fire to burn it.
1093
00:56:47,875 --> 00:56:51,167
Fortunately, another child pulled the baby
away from the fire.
1094
00:56:52,375 --> 00:56:56,417
So that to me sounds
like somebody developing a
1095
00:56:57,042 --> 00:56:58,583
postpartum psychosis
1096
00:57:00,292 --> 00:57:03,292
or a severe depression,
but it certainly sounds
1097
00:57:03,375 --> 00:57:06,917
like somebody dipping into a psychosis.
1098
00:57:07,333 --> 00:57:09,750
Can you relate
to any of those testimonies?
1099
00:57:10,042 --> 00:57:15,125
I mean, I think the voices for sure,
the kind of voices and
1100
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:17,750
the idea that it is a devil.
1101
00:57:18,208 --> 00:57:20,667
Oh, the devil appears
all the time in psychosis. Yeah.
1102
00:57:20,958 --> 00:57:22,625
Where do you think that comes from?
1103
00:57:23,167 --> 00:57:24,500
It's really interesting.
1104
00:57:24,542 --> 00:57:26,417
I think it's,
1105
00:57:26,875 --> 00:57:31,000
something to do with
the way women start to think
1106
00:57:31,250 --> 00:57:35,042
in that postnatal period,
particularly when they're depressed
1107
00:57:35,125 --> 00:57:36,875
or they're developing a depression
1108
00:57:36,917 --> 00:57:38,625
and then a psychosis.
1109
00:57:38,667 --> 00:57:42,417
They bring in either
their own faith or their own religion
1110
00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:45,167
or I guess a more sort of global
1111
00:57:45,542 --> 00:57:48,167
interpretation of Good and Evil.
1112
00:57:48,250 --> 00:57:49,542
Devils and angels.
1113
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,667
Those witch trials were
such a long time ago
1114
00:57:54,417 --> 00:57:57,750
and yet I can relate to
so much of what the women were saying.
1115
00:57:58,500 --> 00:58:01,500
It is chilling to realise
that if I'd been alive back then
1116
00:58:02,542 --> 00:58:04,375
I would have been considered evil
1117
00:58:04,958 --> 00:58:06,958
and I would have been killed.
1118
00:58:08,250 --> 00:58:10,250
In the 15th and 16th centuries
1119
00:58:10,292 --> 00:58:12,500
thousands of executions took place
1120
00:58:12,917 --> 00:58:16,333
usually by either hanging
or burning the accused at the stake.
1121
00:58:17,375 --> 00:58:19,208
The witch trials
ripped through communities
1122
00:58:19,250 --> 00:58:20,625
with devastating effect.
1123
00:58:21,250 --> 00:58:23,792
In Europe and North America
around 50,000 women
1124
00:58:23,833 --> 00:58:25,250
were killed.
1125
00:58:26,125 --> 00:58:29,125
In 1585, two German villages were left
1126
00:58:29,208 --> 00:58:32,208
with only one female inhabitant in each.
1127
00:58:33,875 --> 00:58:35,292
I'm Professor Marion Gibson
1128
00:58:35,333 --> 00:58:36,958
and I work at Exeter University
1129
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,708
where I'm professor of
Renaissance and Magical Studies.
1130
00:58:40,292 --> 00:58:42,917
And what is it
that you find interesting about witches?
1131
00:58:43,625 --> 00:58:46,208
I've always been interested in witches,
actually.
1132
00:58:46,250 --> 00:58:47,583
When I went to university
1133
00:58:47,833 --> 00:58:50,458
they gave me
a kind of newspaper account of witches
1134
00:58:50,833 --> 00:58:53,833
of a witch trial in Elizabethan Essex.
1135
00:58:54,250 --> 00:58:56,000
And in it there were these voices of women
1136
00:58:56,042 --> 00:58:58,542
that I became fascinated by
1137
00:58:58,625 --> 00:59:01,042
because these are women
that we didn't normally hear from.
1138
00:59:01,125 --> 00:59:04,042
You know, they weren't in the literature
that I was reading.
1139
00:59:04,167 --> 00:59:05,542
They weren't in the history books.
1140
00:59:05,625 --> 00:59:08,333
They were ordinary women,
and they were talking about their lives.
1141
00:59:08,542 --> 00:59:10,708
And the way they were doing
that was framing it through
1142
00:59:10,750 --> 00:59:13,667
narratives of witchcraft.
I thought that was fascinating.
1143
00:59:14,792 --> 00:59:16,417
These atrocities were playing out
1144
00:59:16,458 --> 00:59:19,042
against a backdrop of
normal, everyday life.
1145
00:59:19,792 --> 00:59:22,625
Women in their kitchens feeling
the devil's presence
1146
00:59:22,667 --> 00:59:23,958
as they baked bread.
1147
00:59:24,417 --> 00:59:26,417
The devil lives in domestic spaces
1148
00:59:26,667 --> 00:59:30,792
and he lives in ordinary foods
and he lives in ordinary objects.
1149
00:59:31,125 --> 00:59:34,833
And you can use
those ordinary objects to bewitch
1150
00:59:34,875 --> 00:59:35,875
your neighbours.
1151
00:59:35,958 --> 00:59:37,958
And I think that's
one of the most frightening things
1152
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,250
about the idea of the witch.
1153
00:59:39,292 --> 00:59:41,833
It's all so ordinary. It's all so mundane.
1154
00:59:41,958 --> 00:59:43,667
Anybody could be a witch.
1155
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:46,583
Anything that crosses
your path in the course of your day
1156
00:59:46,917 --> 00:59:48,250
might be bewitched.
1157
00:59:48,292 --> 00:59:52,042
And the idea that
your whole world is threatening to you
1158
00:59:52,167 --> 00:59:54,750
your whole world is
full of witchcraft and the devil
1159
00:59:55,167 --> 00:59:58,125
I think is a very frightening thing
for people in this period.
1160
00:59:58,667 --> 01:00:00,917
Many of the women
accused as witches were people
1161
01:00:01,042 --> 01:00:03,583
who lived outside of the established norms
1162
01:00:04,208 --> 01:00:05,833
who dared to rebel.
1163
01:00:07,958 --> 01:00:09,208
Even back then the witch
1164
01:00:09,250 --> 01:00:12,167
was the stereotypical opposite
of the good mother
1165
01:00:13,083 --> 01:00:14,542
the good wife.
1166
01:00:14,625 --> 01:00:17,458
She was the woman
who was trying to act independently
1167
01:00:17,542 --> 01:00:18,875
of male control.
1168
01:00:19,375 --> 01:00:22,000
Witchcraft trials are
all about power and control.
1169
01:00:22,042 --> 01:00:23,334
They're about controlling women.
1170
01:00:23,375 --> 01:00:25,417
They're about
controlling people generally.
1171
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:27,958
They're about telling you what to believe
1172
01:00:28,042 --> 01:00:30,583
and making you affirm that you believe it.
1173
01:00:30,917 --> 01:00:32,875
So they're a control mechanism.
1174
01:00:37,208 --> 01:00:39,625
So a woman is accused of being a witch.
1175
01:00:40,250 --> 01:00:41,500
What happens next?
1176
01:00:41,667 --> 01:00:44,458
They would have been questioned
by the magistrate
1177
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,792
and then they would be put in a cart
1178
01:00:46,875 --> 01:00:48,667
and taken off to the nearest prison
1179
01:00:48,875 --> 01:00:50,500
and then they would have waited there
1180
01:00:50,583 --> 01:00:52,833
in the jail conditions,
which were horrible
1181
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,208
until the criminal court was convened.
1182
01:00:56,292 --> 01:00:58,292
And that could be months.
1183
01:01:00,625 --> 01:01:03,167
And then they'd be brought into the court
1184
01:01:03,208 --> 01:01:04,625
in a public setting
1185
01:01:04,667 --> 01:01:07,083
where everybody was angry and shouting
1186
01:01:07,125 --> 01:01:09,708
and there's a kind of whirl of activity.
1187
01:01:11,042 --> 01:01:13,083
Questioned by the judge, very briefly
1188
01:01:13,167 --> 01:01:15,917
asked to say something
about their situation.
1189
01:01:17,792 --> 01:01:19,958
I know nothing of witchcraft.
1190
01:01:20,167 --> 01:01:21,542
Then judged by the jury.
1191
01:01:21,583 --> 01:01:24,458
Most trials took about 10 minutes,
if that.
1192
01:01:25,167 --> 01:01:26,875
Which is astonishing, isn't it?
1193
01:01:26,917 --> 01:01:29,208
You have absolutely no time to think.
1194
01:01:29,375 --> 01:01:30,875
And then you're judged
1195
01:01:30,917 --> 01:01:33,167
and then you're taken away
and you could be hanged.
1196
01:01:33,542 --> 01:01:35,792
And how did they torture the women?
1197
01:01:36,375 --> 01:01:38,000
Torture was officially banned
1198
01:01:38,042 --> 01:01:41,000
against witches
or anybody else in England.
1199
01:01:41,042 --> 01:01:43,917
It was reserved for state crimes,
things like treason.
1200
01:01:44,125 --> 01:01:48,375
So those women,
whose testimonies I showed you,
1201
01:01:48,875 --> 01:01:50,917
they confessed without torture?
1202
01:01:51,292 --> 01:01:56,792
Yes, they do seem
to have confessed voluntarily.
1203
01:01:57,042 --> 01:02:00,000
And nobody's ever really
been able to explain that.
1204
01:02:00,125 --> 01:02:02,500
And would they have known
what would happen to them
1205
01:02:03,042 --> 01:02:04,125
if they confessed?
1206
01:02:04,167 --> 01:02:06,417
Would they have known
that they would die?
1207
01:02:06,833 --> 01:02:10,083
Yes, they would have seen it
in their communities.
1208
01:02:10,417 --> 01:02:12,292
So they did know.
1209
01:02:12,375 --> 01:02:15,125
I think there's good evidence
that they had quite a lot of
1210
01:02:15,167 --> 01:02:17,292
experience of what happened to witches.
1211
01:02:17,333 --> 01:02:19,333
Particularly when you get on to, say
1212
01:02:19,667 --> 01:02:23,083
the Matthew Hopkins trials in the 1640s,
you know, by then
1213
01:02:23,333 --> 01:02:25,542
witchcraft has been illegal for 80 years.
1214
01:02:25,667 --> 01:02:28,375
There's 80 years of people
being hanged for this crime.
1215
01:02:28,833 --> 01:02:31,167
But nevertheless,
people carry on confessing
1216
01:02:31,292 --> 01:02:34,125
which is very difficult
to explain unless you think there
1217
01:02:34,167 --> 01:02:35,500
are other factors involved.
1218
01:02:35,917 --> 01:02:38,167
One thing I would say
from these questions though is
1219
01:02:38,208 --> 01:02:39,250
you know what I just read?
1220
01:02:39,417 --> 01:02:41,208
Like, the way I felt
1221
01:02:41,250 --> 01:02:44,042
if there wasn't something
1222
01:02:44,125 --> 01:02:46,917
where perinatal mental health
was a thing that I knew about
1223
01:02:46,958 --> 01:02:48,375
and I was in a Mother and Baby Unit
1224
01:02:48,417 --> 01:02:50,375
I, I would have confessed to being a witch
1225
01:02:50,417 --> 01:02:51,875
if that was the social narrative
1226
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,417
that if you think
X, Y, and Z, you're a witch
1227
01:02:54,458 --> 01:02:56,458
I absolutely, I'd have confessed.
1228
01:02:57,417 --> 01:02:59,542
- I would have done it. Oh, sorry.
- That's alright.
1229
01:03:00,125 --> 01:03:02,958
Because you feel so...
1230
01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:05,292
You're desperate for an explanation.
1231
01:03:05,542 --> 01:03:07,625
I think that I would have gone for that.
1232
01:03:08,167 --> 01:03:10,125
Yeah. And would you have also
1233
01:03:10,417 --> 01:03:11,833
been happy dying as well?
1234
01:03:11,875 --> 01:03:14,083
Yeah... yeah.
1235
01:03:16,542 --> 01:03:19,667
I can fully relate to
that feeling of choosing
1236
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:23,500
to be hanged versus carrying on
in a really terrible reality.
1237
01:03:23,792 --> 01:03:25,167
It was a form of torture.
1238
01:03:25,250 --> 01:03:27,625
To be a prisoner
in your mind is a form of torture.
1239
01:03:28,167 --> 01:03:29,750
It was not a way to live.
1240
01:03:30,833 --> 01:03:33,042
I would have voluntarily confessed too.
1241
01:03:35,125 --> 01:03:37,417
But it has been 400 years.
1242
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,167
Why do women still feel like this?
1243
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,250
Why are suicide rates increasing?
1244
01:03:43,458 --> 01:03:45,708
Why is there still so little awareness
1245
01:03:45,792 --> 01:03:48,292
knowledge, and support
around these illnesses?
1246
01:03:48,833 --> 01:03:50,833
If I'd been pregnant in that time
1247
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:52,250
who would have treated me?
1248
01:03:52,667 --> 01:03:54,083
You'd have gone to your neighbour
1249
01:03:54,125 --> 01:03:56,333
because you knew
they'd had children before
1250
01:03:56,792 --> 01:03:58,042
and you'd say to them,
1251
01:03:58,083 --> 01:04:01,500
"Could you maybe come
and look after me during my pregnancy?"
1252
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:03,792
And then you would say to them,
1253
01:04:03,875 --> 01:04:05,542
"Can you act as a midwife as well?"
1254
01:04:05,625 --> 01:04:07,125
But basically it would be a neighbour.
1255
01:04:07,167 --> 01:04:08,958
It would be an elderly female neighbour,
1256
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,792
who had done all of this before.
1257
01:04:11,125 --> 01:04:13,125
Women used to be the main healers.
1258
01:04:13,375 --> 01:04:16,542
We were doctors without degrees,
learning anecdotally
1259
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:19,500
passing on our knowledge
to the next generation.
1260
01:04:21,208 --> 01:04:22,917
We were the first pharmacists
1261
01:04:22,958 --> 01:04:25,792
abortionists, nurses and counsellors.
1262
01:04:26,125 --> 01:04:28,417
We were midwives travelling
from home to home
1263
01:04:28,500 --> 01:04:29,875
and village to village.
1264
01:04:30,250 --> 01:04:33,042
Medicine is part of
women's heritage and history.
1265
01:04:33,708 --> 01:04:35,458
It was once our birthright
1266
01:04:36,292 --> 01:04:38,042
but then everything changed.
1267
01:04:41,292 --> 01:04:44,833
Did you know the entire
witchcraft scare, as far back
1268
01:04:44,917 --> 01:04:46,792
as the 14th century, was started by
1269
01:04:46,833 --> 01:04:48,083
the medical profession?
1270
01:04:49,167 --> 01:04:50,167
That's right.
1271
01:04:50,542 --> 01:04:52,250
They were trying to get midwives out of
1272
01:04:52,333 --> 01:04:54,458
the child birthing business.
1273
01:04:54,750 --> 01:04:56,000
That's what they were.
1274
01:04:56,083 --> 01:04:57,875
Most of the women that they burned
1275
01:04:57,958 --> 01:04:58,958
midwives.
1276
01:04:59,708 --> 01:05:00,708
Is that true?
1277
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:03,333
You better believe it.
1278
01:05:03,833 --> 01:05:08,125
Just another example of
male dominated professional society
1279
01:05:08,667 --> 01:05:12,292
exploiting females for
their own selfish purposes.
1280
01:05:13,625 --> 01:05:15,958
Men are such cocksuckers, aren't they?
1281
01:05:19,042 --> 01:05:20,708
He's almost right.
1282
01:05:21,250 --> 01:05:22,958
But it wasn't just midwives.
1283
01:05:23,292 --> 01:05:26,042
It was any women
who treated their neighbours
1284
01:05:26,417 --> 01:05:27,917
who made medicines
1285
01:05:29,125 --> 01:05:30,625
who cared for others.
1286
01:05:32,125 --> 01:05:34,417
One of the arguments
that's been put forward is that
1287
01:05:34,458 --> 01:05:38,250
witchcraft trials were
about driving out female healers.
1288
01:05:38,542 --> 01:05:41,083
While I don't think
that was a deliberate strategy
1289
01:05:41,292 --> 01:05:44,292
it does seem to me
to be an effect of what happens
1290
01:05:44,583 --> 01:05:46,250
if you're constantly
1291
01:05:46,375 --> 01:05:49,792
attacking and demonising people who say
1292
01:05:49,833 --> 01:05:52,458
they have healing skills
and dragging them away
1293
01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:55,042
and they're being executed as witches
1294
01:05:55,333 --> 01:05:57,375
it seems to me
that does leave a kind of gap
1295
01:05:57,417 --> 01:05:59,125
in the healing market.
1296
01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:03,500
And that was the gap
into which male medical workers stepped.
1297
01:06:06,417 --> 01:06:09,417
But the male doctors
of this period were using very little
1298
01:06:09,458 --> 01:06:12,000
of what we would recognise
today as science.
1299
01:06:12,750 --> 01:06:15,125
During training,
they rarely saw any patients
1300
01:06:15,375 --> 01:06:18,292
and no experimentation
of any kind was taught.
1301
01:06:19,417 --> 01:06:21,875
Whereas the wise women, the witches
1302
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:23,417
were working in the field
1303
01:06:23,792 --> 01:06:24,875
treating people
1304
01:06:25,083 --> 01:06:26,625
developing an understanding
1305
01:06:26,667 --> 01:06:29,667
of bones and muscles, herbs and drugs.
1306
01:06:30,708 --> 01:06:33,083
When I became ill,
my only course of action
1307
01:06:33,125 --> 01:06:35,375
was to keep returning to
the emergency room
1308
01:06:35,542 --> 01:06:38,208
desperate for the help I wasn't receiving.
1309
01:06:39,042 --> 01:06:41,917
I wish that instead
I could have gone to the home
1310
01:06:41,958 --> 01:06:44,917
of the local witch
who had seen all of this before.
1311
01:06:45,333 --> 01:06:47,667
But those women were stolen from us
1312
01:06:53,250 --> 01:06:54,875
taken from their homes.
1313
01:07:01,083 --> 01:07:02,750
Bring out Elizabeth Selwyn.
1314
01:07:02,917 --> 01:07:06,375
They were vilified, derided,
called crones and hags.
1315
01:07:07,083 --> 01:07:08,458
Witch!
1316
01:07:09,708 --> 01:07:13,000
Condemned for all eternity
to be dismissed as old wives
1317
01:07:13,333 --> 01:07:15,000
or spectres of doom.
1318
01:07:15,833 --> 01:07:17,458
To scare little children,
1319
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:21,333
and warn women to never grow old,
to never behave badly.
1320
01:07:24,750 --> 01:07:26,458
Burn the witch!
1321
01:07:28,167 --> 01:07:30,542
And the eradication
of their history as healers
1322
01:07:30,583 --> 01:07:31,958
still affects medicine.
1323
01:07:32,417 --> 01:07:34,250
Gender bias in medical knowledge
1324
01:07:34,333 --> 01:07:36,917
research and practice is deeply ingrained.
1325
01:07:37,833 --> 01:07:41,125
A study from 2022 showed
that women are often not taken
1326
01:07:41,167 --> 01:07:44,250
seriously, ignored, or deemed "emotional"
1327
01:07:44,417 --> 01:07:46,833
when it comes to their illnesses and pain.
1328
01:07:47,250 --> 01:07:49,583
An entirely natural expansion
of the pelvis.
1329
01:07:49,667 --> 01:07:51,333
You can fight it with ordinary aspirin.
1330
01:07:51,625 --> 01:07:54,000
I was afraid it might be
an ectopic pregnancy.
1331
01:07:54,542 --> 01:07:55,792
Ectopic?
1332
01:07:55,917 --> 01:07:58,042
I thought you weren't going
to read books, Rosemary.
1333
01:07:58,083 --> 01:07:59,708
It was staring at me in the drugstore.
1334
01:07:59,792 --> 01:08:01,083
And all it did was worry you.
1335
01:08:01,125 --> 01:08:03,042
Will you go home
and throw it away, please?
1336
01:08:03,125 --> 01:08:05,583
- I will, I promise.
- The pain will be gone in two days.
1337
01:08:06,625 --> 01:08:08,250
Ectopic pregnancy.
1338
01:08:08,708 --> 01:08:11,792
So I have a good friend,
Rageshri Dhairyawan
1339
01:08:11,875 --> 01:08:13,875
who writes a lot about this.
1340
01:08:14,167 --> 01:08:16,625
We call it testimonial injustice.
1341
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,917
And that's when your truth
is not taken seriously.
1342
01:08:22,250 --> 01:08:26,917
You're not seen as
a reliable narrator of your own story.
1343
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:31,042
And it classically happens to women,
and certainly women
1344
01:08:31,083 --> 01:08:33,875
who are racially minoritised
are at the greatest risk
1345
01:08:34,417 --> 01:08:36,417
of not being believed.
1346
01:08:36,500 --> 01:08:37,667
It's right across the board.
1347
01:08:37,708 --> 01:08:40,292
So if you think about endometriosis
1348
01:08:40,458 --> 01:08:42,375
it's on average eight years
1349
01:08:42,417 --> 01:08:45,375
for a woman to be diagnosed
with endometriosis.
1350
01:08:45,792 --> 01:08:48,125
And during that time
she's likely to have sought help
1351
01:08:48,167 --> 01:08:49,833
again and again and again
1352
01:08:49,917 --> 01:08:53,333
and her symptoms
would have been dismissed.
1353
01:08:54,542 --> 01:08:55,958
Pain relief.
1354
01:08:56,125 --> 01:08:59,208
We know that Black women
are much less likely
1355
01:08:59,292 --> 01:09:03,167
to be given adequate analgesia
after medical procedures
1356
01:09:03,208 --> 01:09:07,333
because of the perception
that they have a higher pain threshold.
1357
01:09:07,667 --> 01:09:11,292
Me going in and saying numerous times
1358
01:09:11,750 --> 01:09:13,917
I'm struggling, I'm depressed
1359
01:09:14,375 --> 01:09:16,292
I'm clinical and I'm telling you
1360
01:09:16,792 --> 01:09:18,792
with my experience as a doctor
1361
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,500
that I've got severe postnatal
depression and anxiety
1362
01:09:22,542 --> 01:09:23,708
and I need help.
1363
01:09:23,792 --> 01:09:25,792
For that to just be minimised.
1364
01:09:26,042 --> 01:09:28,042
We have known for years
1365
01:09:28,083 --> 01:09:32,750
that Black and Asian women
are more likely to die in childbirth
1366
01:09:33,417 --> 01:09:36,667
and we've done nothing
about it until relatively recently.
1367
01:09:36,792 --> 01:09:39,042
We still don't do enough about it.
1368
01:09:39,125 --> 01:09:42,042
That's a deliberate thing,
because we could solve that.
1369
01:09:42,125 --> 01:09:45,042
We managed to raise funds to be able
1370
01:09:45,125 --> 01:09:49,750
to find a vaccine against COVID
within 12 months.
1371
01:09:50,375 --> 01:09:53,625
So when there is political will
to address a situation
1372
01:09:53,667 --> 01:09:54,792
we address it.
1373
01:09:54,875 --> 01:09:57,833
There has been
no political will to address
1374
01:09:57,875 --> 01:10:00,292
ethnic disparities in health.
1375
01:10:01,917 --> 01:10:05,042
So my son arrived very early
1376
01:10:05,833 --> 01:10:08,167
and I also had an infection
1377
01:10:08,667 --> 01:10:11,917
but I was told, don't worry,
and it would all go away.
1378
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,833
But actually it didn't go away.
1379
01:10:14,125 --> 01:10:17,125
I, gradually, over the next 48 hours,
became
1380
01:10:17,167 --> 01:10:18,667
more and more delirious.
1381
01:10:19,375 --> 01:10:24,583
I remember walking through the kitchen
and seeing loads of shiny knives
1382
01:10:25,125 --> 01:10:28,542
and having a thought back to Daksha Emson
1383
01:10:28,625 --> 01:10:32,625
thinking, "God, is that
what went through Daksha's mind?".
1384
01:10:33,042 --> 01:10:36,167
And I immediately was
so terrified by that thought.
1385
01:10:36,250 --> 01:10:37,708
So terrified
1386
01:10:37,875 --> 01:10:40,833
even though I wasn't in a dark space
at that point.
1387
01:10:40,917 --> 01:10:43,125
But I remember being so terrified
1388
01:10:43,500 --> 01:10:46,500
that I ran out of my kitchen
as quickly as I could.
1389
01:10:46,750 --> 01:10:48,250
I knew something was wrong with me.
1390
01:10:48,292 --> 01:10:50,000
But I didn't quite know what it was.
1391
01:10:50,500 --> 01:10:52,083
And then eventually
1392
01:10:52,500 --> 01:10:54,083
I collapsed.
1393
01:10:55,208 --> 01:10:57,125
At the hospital, Trudi struggled to make
1394
01:10:57,167 --> 01:11:00,167
the other doctors understand
what was happening to her.
1395
01:11:01,042 --> 01:11:03,792
Because I said,
"You know, I'm a perinatal psychiatrist".
1396
01:11:04,042 --> 01:11:05,125
They didn't believe me.
1397
01:11:05,167 --> 01:11:08,875
They thought I was unwell,
so they didn't believe me.
1398
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:12,125
And then my husband had to say to them,
"No, it's true.
1399
01:11:12,167 --> 01:11:14,583
"No, she really is.
She really is a perinatal psychiatrist.
1400
01:11:14,625 --> 01:11:16,167
"That is exactly what she does".
1401
01:11:16,250 --> 01:11:19,500
Were you able to look at yourself
from the outside at any point?
1402
01:11:19,667 --> 01:11:20,667
Constantly.
1403
01:11:21,250 --> 01:11:22,292
Yeah... yeah.
1404
01:11:22,375 --> 01:11:24,542
In a way, I was being my own psychiatrist
1405
01:11:25,500 --> 01:11:27,500
looking at what all the causes might be
1406
01:11:27,583 --> 01:11:29,125
and what all the treatments might be.
1407
01:11:29,542 --> 01:11:32,417
But I could also see it
from all the thousands
1408
01:11:32,500 --> 01:11:36,167
of counts of stories
I've had from women over time.
1409
01:11:36,500 --> 01:11:38,708
And have you ever talked about
this in public before?
1410
01:11:38,792 --> 01:11:40,000
No.
1411
01:11:41,792 --> 01:11:46,167
I've never, ever, ever spoken about
this publicly before. No.
1412
01:11:46,583 --> 01:11:48,083
Why haven't you?
1413
01:11:52,667 --> 01:11:54,875
I think you have to be ready to tell
1414
01:11:55,958 --> 01:11:58,708
your own story, actually,
at the right time
1415
01:12:01,125 --> 01:12:02,875
to the right people.
1416
01:12:03,042 --> 01:12:05,167
Even being a perinatal psychiatrist
1417
01:12:05,792 --> 01:12:10,250
it took me years to accept that
it had also been a full blown psychosis
1418
01:12:11,542 --> 01:12:13,667
or that it had dipped into a psychosis.
1419
01:12:14,667 --> 01:12:16,167
And that's stigma.
1420
01:12:18,917 --> 01:12:22,250
I don't think I've been
open at work about the severity of
1421
01:12:22,292 --> 01:12:24,292
my mental health issues.
1422
01:12:24,875 --> 01:12:27,583
In fact, I don't think anyone
at work knows.
1423
01:12:27,833 --> 01:12:30,042
My entire career
1424
01:12:30,208 --> 01:12:34,417
has been focused on challenging stigma
1425
01:12:34,917 --> 01:12:37,125
around HIV in particular.
1426
01:12:38,375 --> 01:12:40,542
But then when it comes to mental health
1427
01:12:41,292 --> 01:12:46,417
I still feel there's still an element
of shame within me about that.
1428
01:12:46,500 --> 01:12:48,208
Like somehow I failed.
1429
01:12:48,750 --> 01:12:49,958
My brain
1430
01:12:50,250 --> 01:12:53,292
or my mind,
wasn't strong enough to cope with this.
1431
01:12:53,375 --> 01:12:54,500
So this is my fault.
1432
01:12:55,542 --> 01:12:57,542
Executing women as witches
1433
01:12:57,625 --> 01:12:59,875
was a way of
cleansing communities of women
1434
01:12:59,958 --> 01:13:01,292
who were mentally unwell
1435
01:13:01,500 --> 01:13:02,792
who didn't fit in
1436
01:13:03,042 --> 01:13:05,167
or who knew too much
and had too much power.
1437
01:13:05,917 --> 01:13:08,750
Their murders still reverberate
throughout our society.
1438
01:13:09,125 --> 01:13:10,125
Witch.
1439
01:13:10,250 --> 01:13:12,042
Women are scared of being judged,
1440
01:13:12,125 --> 01:13:14,042
scared to talk about our dark thoughts,
1441
01:13:14,417 --> 01:13:17,000
our rage, our madness.
1442
01:13:17,250 --> 01:13:20,083
I think the witch trials
do leave a tremendous legacy
1443
01:13:20,125 --> 01:13:23,875
of guilt and shame and silence.
1444
01:13:23,917 --> 01:13:25,542
The silencing of women's voices
1445
01:13:25,625 --> 01:13:27,667
the silencing of women's experiences.
1446
01:13:27,708 --> 01:13:29,750
It may all seem a very long time ago
1447
01:13:29,958 --> 01:13:31,500
but it is so persistent.
1448
01:13:31,667 --> 01:13:35,333
I've looked back at witch trials
over seven centuries.
1449
01:13:35,875 --> 01:13:38,542
And I can't help thinking
that we see the same thing
1450
01:13:38,625 --> 01:13:40,375
again and again and again.
1451
01:13:41,083 --> 01:13:44,042
And as a female historian
that really resonates with me.
1452
01:13:44,500 --> 01:13:49,042
I feel those emotions the same
as those women did in history.
1453
01:13:49,083 --> 01:13:50,792
And I think that's really powerful.
1454
01:13:50,833 --> 01:13:52,875
I think we should be telling this story.
1455
01:13:53,125 --> 01:13:56,333
The witch trials leave behind them
this tremendous legacy
1456
01:13:56,875 --> 01:13:59,375
of women feeling
they can't talk about things
1457
01:13:59,417 --> 01:14:02,292
that happen to them,
of women feeling things are their fault
1458
01:14:02,875 --> 01:14:04,792
of women feeling disempowered
1459
01:14:04,833 --> 01:14:08,250
and that they are the enemy
somehow in society.
1460
01:14:10,292 --> 01:14:12,917
The whole thing is just this enormous
1461
01:14:13,625 --> 01:14:15,917
ball of guilt and shame and misery
1462
01:14:16,125 --> 01:14:18,417
and difficulty and horror and anxiety,
isn't it?
1463
01:14:18,458 --> 01:14:19,875
"Oh, God, I'm wrong".
1464
01:14:20,375 --> 01:14:21,542
It's that, isn't it?
1465
01:14:21,792 --> 01:14:23,000
We all feel it.
1466
01:14:23,375 --> 01:14:24,417
- Hm.
- Yeah.
1467
01:14:37,708 --> 01:14:40,667
After a month on the ward
I gradually, magically,
1468
01:14:40,750 --> 01:14:42,167
did start to get better.
1469
01:14:43,125 --> 01:14:45,375
I spent more time with Emily and Jude
1470
01:14:45,625 --> 01:14:48,833
finding sisterhood and understanding
amidst the darkness.
1471
01:14:49,083 --> 01:14:50,667
We ate all our meals together.
1472
01:14:50,792 --> 01:14:53,875
We would sit at the doorways
to each other's room, chatting.
1473
01:14:54,333 --> 01:14:56,375
Before lights out in the evening
1474
01:14:56,417 --> 01:14:59,125
we'd slump on these sofas and
1475
01:14:59,833 --> 01:15:01,750
compare symptoms.
1476
01:15:02,292 --> 01:15:06,292
We became like a strange sort of family,
a coven.
1477
01:15:07,625 --> 01:15:09,958
Holding each other
when it all got too much.
1478
01:15:10,667 --> 01:15:14,333
My son and the other babies
became part of our coven too.
1479
01:15:15,125 --> 01:15:17,583
I spent my days just holding him.
1480
01:15:18,083 --> 01:15:21,208
And gradually I started taking him
out of the ward on my own.
1481
01:15:22,083 --> 01:15:23,917
I was no longer scared of him.
1482
01:15:24,292 --> 01:15:27,292
I began to understand him
and what he needed.
1483
01:15:29,417 --> 01:15:32,958
Then one day I was finally able
to close the door to my room
1484
01:15:33,208 --> 01:15:35,167
so that he and I were alone together.
1485
01:15:36,125 --> 01:15:38,208
I was so relieved that I could do it
1486
01:15:38,583 --> 01:15:40,042
that he was finally safe.
1487
01:15:40,958 --> 01:15:42,292
I was finally safe.
1488
01:15:45,208 --> 01:15:46,917
Being released from a psychiatric ward
1489
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:48,875
is as weird as going into one.
1490
01:15:49,667 --> 01:15:52,500
They don't wait until you're 100% better.
1491
01:15:53,833 --> 01:15:56,125
Will you ever be 100% better?
Will any of us?
1492
01:15:56,167 --> 01:15:58,792
Anyway, they don't wait
until you are 100% better.
1493
01:15:59,458 --> 01:16:02,083
But instead they... they wait
1494
01:16:02,125 --> 01:16:04,458
until they know
that you can cope with being at home.
1495
01:16:05,542 --> 01:16:07,125
And it's very gradual.
1496
01:16:07,208 --> 01:16:09,875
So I started going home for the afternoon.
1497
01:16:10,583 --> 01:16:13,417
And then I would go home
for the whole day.
1498
01:16:13,667 --> 01:16:15,333
And then overnight.
1499
01:16:15,542 --> 01:16:16,958
After one of my overnights
1500
01:16:17,208 --> 01:16:19,583
Emily told me that she'd
heard a nurse saying
1501
01:16:19,625 --> 01:16:22,500
that they thought I would
be going home for good soon.
1502
01:16:24,167 --> 01:16:26,167
And I was really scared
1503
01:16:26,667 --> 01:16:29,792
because I didn't think I was ready.
1504
01:16:30,250 --> 01:16:33,958
The staff told me to try going home
for the weekend.
1505
01:16:34,042 --> 01:16:35,542
Oh fine, thanks.
1506
01:16:36,042 --> 01:16:37,042
Right over there.
1507
01:16:38,625 --> 01:16:40,458
My husband Jeremy came and picked us up
1508
01:16:41,417 --> 01:16:45,125
and he'd bought all my favourite food
1509
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:47,917
and he was just trying so hard
1510
01:16:48,000 --> 01:16:50,458
to make it really nice and comfortable.
1511
01:16:50,875 --> 01:16:53,500
And I was really touched.
But I remember also...
1512
01:16:54,333 --> 01:16:57,000
feeling really scared,
that I wouldn't be able to do it
1513
01:16:57,083 --> 01:17:01,500
that I wouldn't be able to cope
and that I would let him down.
1514
01:17:02,833 --> 01:17:05,000
But then the next morning, I woke up
1515
01:17:06,250 --> 01:17:08,250
and everything was okay.
1516
01:17:11,667 --> 01:17:14,917
And I just remember crying with relief
1517
01:17:16,625 --> 01:17:18,667
because I knew that whatever happened
1518
01:17:19,042 --> 01:17:20,375
we'd got through this.
1519
01:17:21,500 --> 01:17:24,333
The darkness had lifted.
1520
01:17:24,708 --> 01:17:27,708
I think the time
when we couldn't stop laughing
1521
01:17:27,750 --> 01:17:30,333
that first time when we laughed like...
1522
01:17:30,750 --> 01:17:33,792
a proper belly laugh, crying laughing.
1523
01:17:33,958 --> 01:17:37,583
I was like, "Oh, I can feel, feel again.
1524
01:17:37,708 --> 01:17:40,708
"I don't feel like
I'm behind a glass wall".
1525
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,250
Just getting, like,
a hug from another woman
1526
01:17:45,750 --> 01:17:47,167
like a long hug.
1527
01:17:48,958 --> 01:17:51,167
Like you're a kid,
like you're a little girl.
1528
01:17:53,542 --> 01:17:55,375
Just having someone hug you and be like,
1529
01:17:55,708 --> 01:17:57,333
"You're gonna be okay.
1530
01:17:57,625 --> 01:17:59,875
"You're gonna get through this,
and you're gonna be okay".
1531
01:17:59,917 --> 01:18:01,292
And just like, hold you.
1532
01:18:01,417 --> 01:18:04,625
Because you're doing all the holding
when you become a mother.
1533
01:18:04,708 --> 01:18:06,625
You're doing so much holding.
1534
01:18:07,750 --> 01:18:10,167
Having someone hold you and just...
1535
01:18:11,292 --> 01:18:13,375
I'm so lucky to have my mum
1536
01:18:14,042 --> 01:18:15,500
just do that for me.
1537
01:18:18,000 --> 01:18:20,000
In what ways do you feel like your illness
1538
01:18:20,042 --> 01:18:22,042
and that experience changed you?
1539
01:18:23,708 --> 01:18:25,750
It was absolutely my lowest I've ever been
1540
01:18:25,792 --> 01:18:26,792
and I've had some lows.
1541
01:18:27,125 --> 01:18:28,667
It's absolutely the lowest I've ever been
1542
01:18:28,708 --> 01:18:30,750
and I kind of climbed back from it.
1543
01:18:30,875 --> 01:18:34,083
So in a way I do feel
that nothing we face as a family
1544
01:18:34,125 --> 01:18:36,500
is probably ever going to be
as bad as what we went through.
1545
01:18:36,750 --> 01:18:39,292
Yeah, I think I am more grateful now,
1546
01:18:39,667 --> 01:18:45,000
for small things, and for my family,
and for moments.
1547
01:18:45,042 --> 01:18:47,833
And kind of, I feel so lucky
1548
01:18:48,042 --> 01:18:51,292
to have had the help
and to have got better
1549
01:18:51,375 --> 01:18:54,875
and had some amazing times with my family.
1550
01:18:56,583 --> 01:18:57,958
With my family.
1551
01:19:02,667 --> 01:19:04,917
Before I had kids, I always used to think,
1552
01:19:05,250 --> 01:19:06,792
"Why would you have mum friends?
1553
01:19:06,833 --> 01:19:10,250
"I won't have mum friends.
I'll just keep my own friends.
1554
01:19:10,333 --> 01:19:12,833
"I don't need new friends,
oh, it'll be so boring".
1555
01:19:14,167 --> 01:19:17,250
And then I had children
1556
01:19:17,625 --> 01:19:18,833
and then I had a breakdown
1557
01:19:19,667 --> 01:19:22,333
and I really, really needed
that community.
1558
01:19:22,542 --> 01:19:24,917
I needed to be wrapped up
1559
01:19:25,167 --> 01:19:28,583
in the love and the care of other women.
1560
01:19:28,917 --> 01:19:31,000
It does feel like a coven, doesn't it?
1561
01:19:31,167 --> 01:19:35,167
This sort of collective wisdom,
knowledge, experience
1562
01:19:35,292 --> 01:19:37,500
sharing, support.
1563
01:19:38,250 --> 01:19:42,125
What would you say to
a woman who's watching this
1564
01:19:42,167 --> 01:19:46,292
who is maybe going through
a perinatal mental health crisis?
1565
01:19:46,875 --> 01:19:48,417
What advice would you give her?
1566
01:19:48,750 --> 01:19:52,542
Never, ever, ever struggle in silence.
1567
01:19:53,917 --> 01:19:56,167
There is always help for
1568
01:19:56,750 --> 01:20:00,208
every type of
perinatal mental health crisis
1569
01:20:00,250 --> 01:20:02,042
or psychological crisis.
1570
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:05,208
Tell everybody around you.
1571
01:20:05,833 --> 01:20:08,958
Tell your partner, tell your family,
tell your friends.
1572
01:20:09,792 --> 01:20:12,042
But most importantly,
go and get professional help.
1573
01:20:12,458 --> 01:20:14,542
And no one's going
to take your baby away.
1574
01:20:17,125 --> 01:20:19,125
I always wanted to be a witch.
1575
01:20:21,042 --> 01:20:22,667
A good witch.
1576
01:20:25,542 --> 01:20:28,208
One who only used her power gently.
1577
01:20:39,917 --> 01:20:42,917
But now I know
that good witches are prisoners, too.
1578
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:45,583
They have to suppress their power.
1579
01:20:45,708 --> 01:20:47,708
You know I lighted it with
a match, Wally.
1580
01:20:48,417 --> 01:20:51,750
From now on, I'm going to be just
a simple, helpful wife.
1581
01:20:52,125 --> 01:20:53,333
Or give it up.
1582
01:20:56,125 --> 01:20:58,333
They must stay young and beautiful.
1583
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,375
They cannot stray from the path.
1584
01:21:06,500 --> 01:21:09,500
I see now that their magic is meaningless.
1585
01:21:10,167 --> 01:21:12,167
Nothing more than a trick.
1586
01:21:16,417 --> 01:21:17,625
Thank you.
1587
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:20,625
I would much rather be a bad witch.
1588
01:21:24,667 --> 01:21:26,667
My mental health is now stable
1589
01:21:27,208 --> 01:21:29,958
although I have been told
I should probably stay on medication
1590
01:21:30,125 --> 01:21:31,542
for the rest of my life.
1591
01:21:32,500 --> 01:21:34,542
I see the world in a different way now.
1592
01:21:35,375 --> 01:21:37,375
How fragile our minds are.
1593
01:21:37,667 --> 01:21:40,208
How easily our reality can be shattered.
1594
01:21:41,125 --> 01:21:44,125
I know now
that not everything is as it seems.
1595
01:21:57,750 --> 01:22:00,375
I've thought a lot
about how to talk to my son
1596
01:22:00,458 --> 01:22:02,083
about what happened to us.
1597
01:22:05,125 --> 01:22:07,750
About how he was pulled into my darkness
1598
01:22:08,208 --> 01:22:09,625
my madness
1599
01:22:09,917 --> 01:22:11,333
my horror.
1600
01:22:13,792 --> 01:22:16,000
I don't want him to feel bad about that.
1601
01:22:18,667 --> 01:22:20,375
My son is two and a half now
1602
01:22:20,542 --> 01:22:23,167
and I'm completely obsessed with him.
1603
01:22:24,250 --> 01:22:26,250
He's my favourite person
in the whole world.
1604
01:22:27,917 --> 01:22:32,333
And while there are a lot of people
to thank for my recovery...
1605
01:22:34,375 --> 01:22:36,792
It was my son who saved my life.
1606
01:22:40,625 --> 01:22:42,458
He gave me love
1607
01:22:42,750 --> 01:22:45,375
and focus, and a reason to keep going.
1608
01:22:46,375 --> 01:22:49,000
And he was there with me
every day on the ward.
1609
01:22:53,917 --> 01:22:57,917
I now treasure that one-on-one time
we had together.
1610
01:23:00,125 --> 01:23:03,625
In your life, you too,
will find that your sense of reality
1611
01:23:03,958 --> 01:23:04,958
shifts.
1612
01:23:06,083 --> 01:23:08,833
You will be pulled into worlds
that are so horrible
1613
01:23:08,958 --> 01:23:11,208
you cannot even begin to process them.
1614
01:23:12,375 --> 01:23:14,458
Rooms that make your knees weak.
1615
01:23:26,625 --> 01:23:29,042
Madness and darkness,
1616
01:23:29,625 --> 01:23:31,250
horror and pain
1617
01:23:32,083 --> 01:23:33,708
are always here waiting.
1618
01:23:34,250 --> 01:23:36,250
They will come for us all.
1619
01:23:37,417 --> 01:23:38,833
But then so will joy,
1620
01:23:39,167 --> 01:23:40,208
beauty,
1621
01:23:40,542 --> 01:23:41,542
love,
1622
01:23:42,083 --> 01:23:43,125
and magic.
1623
01:23:44,042 --> 01:23:46,208
Every woman is a witch
1624
01:23:46,417 --> 01:23:48,750
and every witch needs a coven.
1625
01:23:50,083 --> 01:23:51,708
Now, what do you want to ask me?
1626
01:23:55,417 --> 01:23:57,000
Alright. Thank you, can we cut?
1627
01:25:03,750 --> 01:25:05,625
Bertie, can you see the camera?
Where's the camera?
1628
01:25:05,667 --> 01:25:07,292
- Can you see the camera down there?
- Okay!
1629
01:25:07,375 --> 01:25:09,375
- Can you say hello?
- Can you wave to the camera?
1630
01:25:09,500 --> 01:25:11,792
- Can you wave hello?
- Hello.
1631
01:25:11,833 --> 01:25:12,875
- Hello.
- Hello.
1632
01:25:12,917 --> 01:25:14,125
Can you say thank you?
1633
01:25:14,292 --> 01:25:15,708
Thank you.