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[Ethereal melody;
Soothing, bell-like percussion]
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Downloaded from
YTS.MX
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX
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[Delicate violin plucking]
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[Sustained, warm violin tone joins]
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[Music fades]
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[Soft, unsettling music;
Wind rustles faintly]
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[Seagulls shriek]
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[Laboured breathing]
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[Music fades]
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[Woman coughs]
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[Shuffled footsteps]
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[Woman grunts]
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[Elizabeth] When you think of witches
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is this what you see?
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[Propulsive, percussive music]
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[Gong resonates]
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[Gong resonates]
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[Gong resonates]
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As a little girl,
like so many little girls
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I wanted to be
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a witch.
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[Hypnotic, rhythmic drum beats]
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On grey winter days
I heard their songs in the woods.
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[Drum beats continue,
woman vocalises ethereally]
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At night they danced in my dreams.
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I longed to join their secret rituals.
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I brewed potions from flowers and herbs.
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Wrote spell books
that I hid under my pillow.
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[Lightning thunders]
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And I chanted my desires over
and over again
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trying to make something, anything, happen
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in my quiet little world.
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[Soft whispering]
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I read books about witches
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I saw them on TV,
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[Magical chime]
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but most of all
I watched them at the cinema.
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You girls watch out for those weirdos.
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We are the weirdos, mister.
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[Bus doors hiss;
Percussive music ends]
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[Elizabeth] I still remember seeing
The Wizard Of Oz
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for the first time.
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From the moment Dorothy
stepped into that technicolour land
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I was spellbound.
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[Dreamy, orchestral music]
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[Birds chirp]
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The Wizard Of Oz
showed me
that there are two types of witches.
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We have Glinda with her white magic,
her sweet temperament,
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and her sparkling, traditional beauty.
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Are you a good witch or a bad witch?
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I'm not a witch at all.
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Witches are old and ugly.
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Only bad witches are ugly.
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[Explosion rumbles]
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[Elizabeth] And we have
the Wicked Witch of the West,
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whose sickly green skin and evil demeanour
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- has become an indelible cultural image.
- [Tense, taut music]
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I'll get you, my pretty.
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[Wicked Witch]
And your little dog too!
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[Wicked Witch cackles]
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[Elizabeth] I wanted to be a good witch,
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I couldn't understand why
any woman would choose to be bad.
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[Music fades]
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I didn't know then what I know now,
that being good or bad
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isn't a choice
a woman gets to make for herself.
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[Eerie, ambient music]
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The Wicked Witch was supposed to scare us
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but she was also created
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as a warning for women and girls.
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Behave, and be beautiful,
or we will destroy you.
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Women have been taught
this lesson for centuries
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so that now
it is embroidered onto our bones
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mixed with our blood
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- tattooed onto our beating hearts.
- [Music swells]
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It is in our culture,
in all our stories.
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Women are pitted against each other.
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The virgin.
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The whore.
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The maiden.
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The crone.
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The good witch
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and the bad witch.
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It is a narrative
that is so successfully pervasive
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that we repeat it to each other.
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We police our sisters,
our neighbours, our friends.
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Slut.
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What did you say?
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You heard her.
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[Women whisper]
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[Woman] She's not wearing a bra.
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[Elizabeth] This vicious narrative
empowered those who are threatened by us
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to believe that their fear
and hatred of women is correct.
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That they are right to persecute us.
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A few months after
I watched The Wizard Of Oz
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I learned in school about
the women who had been murdered
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in the witch trials
that took place across Europe and America
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hundreds of years ago.
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Their stories haunted me.
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I became obsessed with them,
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carrying their names
around with me like charms.
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Reciting them to myself
when I felt anxious or lonely.
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- [Ominous hum]
- Anna Moats.
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Elizabeth Clarke.
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Mary Scrutton.
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Katherine Grady.
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Mary Hicks.
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Isabella Rigby.
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- Janet Horne.
- [Elizabeth whispers names]
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Ruth Osborne.
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Agnes Waterhouse.
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Elizabeth Device.
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Anne Whittle. Jane Bulcock.
Susannah Smith.
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[Elizabeth whispers rapidly;
Ominous hum intensifies]
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- [Ominous hum halts]
- Anna Moats.
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Some of those witches
were healers and midwives
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helping their communities
with their skills.
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Others were outcasts,
living on the edge of their village.
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[Uneasy ambient music]
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And some of them had lost their minds.
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This resonated with me
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because I have always been stalked
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by the shadow of madness.
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As a child I made deals
with unknown forces
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believing certain behaviours
would keep me safe.
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At night I would talk for hours
to people who didn't exist.
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- And I constructed worlds in my head,
- [Delicate chimes]
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that were so visceral, so solid and alive
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that I wanted to stay in them forever.
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As I got older,
I poured my madness into my work
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and found I was able to control it,
even use it.
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And I said goodbye to the witches,
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letting them fade away into childhood.
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[Music continues]
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I was happy.
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I was safe.
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[Music swells;
Ethereal vocalising]
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But that was just an illusion.
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[Loud crash, glass shatters]
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[Child giggles, quick footsteps]
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Three years ago, I gave birth to my son.
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Within a month,
I was admitted to a psychiatric ward.
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The madness had found me again.
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And the witches?
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[Eerie hum]
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They were so close now
I could feel their breath
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on the back of my neck.
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As I shuffled from room to room
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I caught glimpses of them.
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Felt their bony hands on me
when I lay awake at night.
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- They sung to me from the sea.
- [Eerie hum intensifies]
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Called me into the woods,
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inviting me to join them.
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Until eventually...
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[Vocalising halts]
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I did.
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[Haunting, instrumental music]
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[Vocalising resumes, swells]
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[Vocalising subsides, resonates]
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I've always been scared
to be ugly and messy.
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[Haunting music continues]
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Scared to show my wickedness
and my weakness.
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But I don't care anymore.
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I need you to know how it feels
to lose your mind completely.
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I want you to see what I saw
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feel what I felt.
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So I'm going to drag you
into this spell with me
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because while I survived
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far too many
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have not.
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[Music subsides]
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[Muffled heartbeat]
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Pregnancy is a strange time
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- at once mundane yet wildly magical.
- [Muffled heartbeat fades]
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And looking back I can see
that this was when the madness
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started crawling towards me.
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[Birds chirp]
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As my body rapidly transformed
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the edges of reality began to blur.
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- I no longer felt tied to the present,
- [Bell tolls]
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instead existing in some strange,
liminal space,
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connected to all the women
throughout history
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who had made this journey before me.
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The doors to the past
and the future were open
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And I felt like
I was walking between two worlds.
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Asleep and awake.
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And no one had ever told me
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being pregnant could feel like this.
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Films had taught me
I was supposed to be calm
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pretty,
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soft and pink.
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What is it?
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It moved!
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What moved?
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The baby, it moved!
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[Elizabeth] But I didn't feel like that.
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I felt out of control.
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00:10:06,250 --> 00:10:07,601
[Static, unsettling hum]
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00:10:07,625 --> 00:10:09,083
I was a storm
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00:10:10,542 --> 00:10:12,559
wild and unmoored.
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[Hypnotic, rhythmic drum beats]
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I was a fire.
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And because of that disconnection,
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I found pregnancy
an anxious and lonely time.
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I counted down the days
till it would be over.
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00:10:25,708 --> 00:10:28,417
I couldn't wait to hold my son in my arms
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00:10:28,917 --> 00:10:31,762
- to feel his warm body on my skin.
- [Sweet, emotive drums beats]
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After his birth I was elated,
I was on a high.
209
00:10:36,083 --> 00:10:38,292
I couldn't sleep
because I didn't need to sleep.
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I was too excited, too mad with love.
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But then
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00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,723
everything started to go wrong.
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00:10:46,747 --> 00:10:48,112
[Drum beats turn unsettling]
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00:10:48,136 --> 00:10:50,750
What follows is my testimony.
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00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,958
[Music snaps to silence]
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[Woman] Thank you.
217
00:11:11,917 --> 00:11:13,083
Okay, so.,
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my son was born on a Wednesday
219
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in a heat wave,
220
00:11:17,875 --> 00:11:21,083
and by the Sunday night,
I was starting to feel
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very strange.
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00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,833
I remember my husband was holding our baby
223
00:11:28,042 --> 00:11:30,367
and he asked me to take him,
just for a minute
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and I couldn't.
225
00:11:32,708 --> 00:11:34,833
He was standing in the living room.
226
00:11:35,875 --> 00:11:38,125
And I remember I sort of started,
involuntarily
227
00:11:38,375 --> 00:11:40,875
backing away into the kitchen.
228
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I was just terrified.
229
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It was a fear
that I have never known before.
230
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I wanted to run away.
231
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We drove to A&E at midnight
232
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our son, tiny, in his little car seat
233
00:11:55,292 --> 00:12:00,000
and sat in this sticky,
sweaty room while a doctor...
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00:12:00,208 --> 00:12:01,434
I remember this really clearly
235
00:12:01,458 --> 00:12:05,417
because he had really red hair
and then these bright blue scrubs.
236
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,750
Dr Ben, he was called.
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00:12:09,250 --> 00:12:11,833
He started asking me
a series of questions.
238
00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:14,934
[Woman]
In the last week,
how often have you been bothered
239
00:12:14,958 --> 00:12:17,417
by feeling down, depressed or hopeless?
240
00:12:17,667 --> 00:12:21,476
[Woman 2]
How often have you had little
interest or pleasure in doing things?
241
00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:23,417
[Woman 3]
How often
have you been bothered by
242
00:12:23,542 --> 00:12:27,518
trouble falling or staying asleep,
or sleeping too much?
243
00:12:27,542 --> 00:12:29,833
I would become very familiar
with these questions
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00:12:30,167 --> 00:12:31,417
over the next few months.
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00:12:31,667 --> 00:12:33,976
[Woman]
How often have you been
bothered by feeling bad
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00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,083
about yourself,
or that you are a failure
247
00:12:36,250 --> 00:12:38,643
or have let yourself or your family down?
248
00:12:38,667 --> 00:12:39,684
[Eerie resonating hum]
249
00:12:39,708 --> 00:12:42,083
After listening to me explain
how I'd been feeling
250
00:12:42,417 --> 00:12:46,333
Dr Ben said
it was a classic case of "baby blues"
251
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and that it would probably just
go away on its own.
252
00:12:50,042 --> 00:12:52,375
I went home and tried to carry on.
253
00:12:52,958 --> 00:12:54,792
I tried to hide how I was feeling
254
00:12:55,417 --> 00:12:58,333
but my mental health
was deteriorating rapidly.
255
00:12:59,167 --> 00:13:01,250
I couldn't eat, I couldn't sleep
256
00:13:01,833 --> 00:13:04,417
and I was starting to have
thoughts of harming myself.
257
00:13:05,625 --> 00:13:08,583
One night I suddenly felt
an overwhelming urge
258
00:13:08,875 --> 00:13:10,143
to walk out of our house
259
00:13:10,167 --> 00:13:13,042
and head for a nearby bridge
that went over the motorway.
260
00:13:13,333 --> 00:13:15,458
[Wind roars]
261
00:13:17,125 --> 00:13:19,292
I'd seen bunches of flowers there before.
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00:13:20,667 --> 00:13:23,250
Faded photographs
with names written underneath.
263
00:13:24,833 --> 00:13:28,833
But I'd never been able to understand why
anyone would climb onto the railings
264
00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:32,333
why anyone would jump.
265
00:13:32,542 --> 00:13:34,417
[Wind rumbles]
266
00:13:34,958 --> 00:13:37,018
But now it was taking all my strength
267
00:13:37,042 --> 00:13:38,250
not to run there.
268
00:13:42,042 --> 00:13:45,518
We called the hospital and I remember
the woman on the phone was so kind.
269
00:13:45,542 --> 00:13:48,583
She just kept saying,
"I know, I know. It's awful."
270
00:13:49,417 --> 00:13:51,292
And she called me an ambulance.
271
00:13:52,667 --> 00:13:56,601
When the paramedics arrived,
I was sat on the sofa
272
00:13:56,625 --> 00:13:59,333
and I think by this point I hadn't slept
273
00:13:59,625 --> 00:14:00,958
I think for about ten days
274
00:14:02,542 --> 00:14:05,143
and I couldn't eat.
275
00:14:05,167 --> 00:14:07,268
I just physically couldn't swallow.
276
00:14:07,292 --> 00:14:10,292
It was five in the morning
and I wanted to die.
277
00:14:11,042 --> 00:14:13,667
And one of the paramedics was this guy,
278
00:14:14,458 --> 00:14:16,643
in his fifties or sixties,
279
00:14:16,667 --> 00:14:20,417
And he took one look at me,
sat on the sofa, and he said
280
00:14:21,625 --> 00:14:23,542
"Welcome to parenthood!"
281
00:14:24,417 --> 00:14:25,625
With, like, jazz hands.
282
00:14:25,917 --> 00:14:27,750
And I remember just thinking like...
283
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,083
"Really?!"
284
00:14:31,833 --> 00:14:32,893
This...
285
00:14:32,917 --> 00:14:34,250
This is normal?
286
00:14:34,792 --> 00:14:38,000
I'm supposed to feel like this?
It's supposed to be like this?
287
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:43,351
He was a very nice man.
288
00:14:43,375 --> 00:14:47,875
He came to see me later
when I was in A&E to check up on me.
289
00:14:48,250 --> 00:14:49,583
But him saying that,
290
00:14:49,875 --> 00:14:52,101
at that point in my illness,
291
00:14:52,125 --> 00:14:54,934
really made me feel
like there was something wrong with me.
292
00:14:54,958 --> 00:14:58,583
Like I wasn't cut out for this,
that I didn't possess
293
00:14:59,167 --> 00:15:02,417
the requisite skills to be a mother.
294
00:15:04,250 --> 00:15:06,976
And it kills me to say this,
knowing what I know now
295
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,417
and knowing how I feel about my son.
296
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,851
But from then on,
I really started to feel like
297
00:15:13,875 --> 00:15:18,125
I'd made a mistake becoming a parent,
and that everyone knew.
298
00:15:19,292 --> 00:15:21,292
And everyone could see it.
299
00:15:24,250 --> 00:15:27,792
Because we all know
what a mother is supposed to be like.
300
00:15:29,375 --> 00:15:30,893
- [Upbeat, whimsical music]
- A good mother is selfless,
301
00:15:30,917 --> 00:15:34,083
her entire identity
consumed by her love for her child.
302
00:15:34,875 --> 00:15:36,167
She is immaculate.
303
00:15:36,458 --> 00:15:37,958
She is youthful, innocent,
304
00:15:38,208 --> 00:15:40,018
almost virginal in her purity.
305
00:15:40,042 --> 00:15:41,101
Her hair flows behind her
306
00:15:41,125 --> 00:15:43,167
as she walks through
a field of wildflowers,
307
00:15:43,333 --> 00:15:44,667
breastfeeding her baby.
308
00:15:45,167 --> 00:15:47,042
She always smells of freshly baked bread
309
00:15:47,167 --> 00:15:49,250
she wears long cotton dresses,
and no makeup.
310
00:15:49,542 --> 00:15:51,101
She glows with love from within.
311
00:15:51,125 --> 00:15:52,292
She never questions her life.
312
00:15:52,417 --> 00:15:54,583
She feels eternally blessed and complete.
313
00:15:54,676 --> 00:15:55,934
She has at least three children
314
00:15:55,958 --> 00:15:57,726
for whom she is the primary caregiver.
315
00:15:57,750 --> 00:15:59,851
She is thin, attractive and stylish.
316
00:15:59,875 --> 00:16:00,893
She is never stressed
317
00:16:00,917 --> 00:16:01,934
never angry
318
00:16:01,958 --> 00:16:03,750
she overflows with compassion, joy
319
00:16:03,875 --> 00:16:05,434
and endless emotional resources.
320
00:16:05,458 --> 00:16:06,851
She is a mother and nothing else
321
00:16:06,875 --> 00:16:08,393
and that is more than enough for her.
322
00:16:08,417 --> 00:16:10,708
And she is happy.
323
00:16:11,750 --> 00:16:13,583
[Music stops]
324
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:17,083
I was now surrounded by perfect mothers.
325
00:16:17,250 --> 00:16:18,542
They were everywhere.
326
00:16:19,458 --> 00:16:20,625
I was nothing like them.
327
00:16:21,417 --> 00:16:23,750
I was more like
the character of Marlo in
Tully
.
328
00:16:24,167 --> 00:16:26,958
A film I'd seen before,
but which had new resonance
329
00:16:27,167 --> 00:16:30,375
when I watched it again at 4am
while trying to breastfeed.
330
00:16:31,208 --> 00:16:33,018
I was shocked by how much of it felt
331
00:16:33,042 --> 00:16:35,583
- deeply, troublingly relatable.
- [Pensive, ambient music]
332
00:16:36,167 --> 00:16:39,000
Marlo seems to be trapped
in her life with a newborn
333
00:16:39,167 --> 00:16:42,500
repeating the same three hours
over and over again
334
00:16:42,875 --> 00:16:45,875
losing more of herself
as every second ticks by
335
00:16:46,042 --> 00:16:49,667
until she is just a ghost,
who has forgotten who she once was.
336
00:16:50,417 --> 00:16:52,250
Her old life gone forever.
337
00:16:53,667 --> 00:16:55,143
I had finally found a woman
338
00:16:55,167 --> 00:16:57,917
who looked, behaved and felt like me.
339
00:17:00,250 --> 00:17:01,809
But her story didn't end well.
340
00:17:01,833 --> 00:17:02,833
[Music stops]
341
00:17:09,958 --> 00:17:12,184
And I was becoming increasingly suspicious
342
00:17:12,208 --> 00:17:13,768
that mine wouldn't either.
343
00:17:13,792 --> 00:17:15,434
[Haunting, drone-like resonance]
344
00:17:15,458 --> 00:17:16,851
As the sun came up
345
00:17:16,875 --> 00:17:18,500
I went back to the emergency room.
346
00:17:19,375 --> 00:17:20,476
[Resonance fades]
347
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:22,684
I was prescribed medication
to help me sleep
348
00:17:22,708 --> 00:17:23,851
and I did sleep
349
00:17:23,875 --> 00:17:26,917
and I started formula feeding
which definitely helped.
350
00:17:27,958 --> 00:17:30,643
Although, you know,
also compounded my feelings
351
00:17:30,667 --> 00:17:34,324
of shame and guilt
and that I wasn't an adequate mother.
352
00:17:34,348 --> 00:17:35,369
[Eerie hum]
353
00:17:35,393 --> 00:17:36,604
But that...
354
00:17:36,750 --> 00:17:40,708
that anxiety,
that doom just kept growing.
355
00:17:40,833 --> 00:17:43,958
And it was like this living,
breathing terror.
356
00:17:44,583 --> 00:17:46,351
And we didn't know what to do.
357
00:17:46,375 --> 00:17:48,333
We didn't know what was wrong with me.
358
00:17:48,958 --> 00:17:51,167
And so it became
even easier for me to think
359
00:17:51,375 --> 00:17:53,167
"Right, everything in my life was fine.
360
00:17:53,316 --> 00:17:55,018
- "And then I had a baby
- [Hum continues]
361
00:17:55,042 --> 00:17:56,917
"and now I'm in a horror film.
362
00:17:57,083 --> 00:17:59,917
"So it must be because of the baby
that I feel like that."
363
00:18:00,875 --> 00:18:03,583
At first I was able
to push those thoughts away.
364
00:18:03,833 --> 00:18:06,393
But the longer my illness went on
365
00:18:06,417 --> 00:18:08,875
the harder it became to ignore
the voice in my head
366
00:18:09,250 --> 00:18:11,542
that told me I was only in this situation
367
00:18:11,646 --> 00:18:14,268
- because I had become a mother.
- [Sparse, delicate piano music]
368
00:18:14,292 --> 00:18:16,875
My thoughts about my son became
more sinister.
369
00:18:17,542 --> 00:18:20,458
Maybe if he wasn't here any more
I wouldn't feel like this.
370
00:18:21,250 --> 00:18:24,000
Maybe that was what would finally end
this torture.
371
00:18:25,667 --> 00:18:27,726
I was so desperate that I started to fear
372
00:18:27,750 --> 00:18:29,833
there was only one way
to make that happen.
373
00:18:31,917 --> 00:18:33,917
I didn't tell anyone about these thoughts.
374
00:18:34,958 --> 00:18:36,750
They were too evil.
375
00:18:38,167 --> 00:18:40,393
No one would ever understand me
376
00:18:40,417 --> 00:18:42,059
and no one would forgive me
377
00:18:42,083 --> 00:18:43,833
for thinking them.
378
00:18:45,833 --> 00:18:47,726
I knew what happened to women
379
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:49,542
who hurt their children.
380
00:18:53,042 --> 00:18:55,375
I knew how society treated them
381
00:18:55,625 --> 00:18:57,625
[Music continues]
382
00:19:00,417 --> 00:19:02,208
so I didn't dare tell anyone.
383
00:19:05,375 --> 00:19:06,518
[Eerie vocalising]
384
00:19:06,542 --> 00:19:08,542
Not even the doctors.
385
00:19:13,333 --> 00:19:15,208
[Music and vocalising swell and stop]
386
00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:18,167
Every day I would wake up with this dread.
387
00:19:18,333 --> 00:19:20,059
This doom.
388
00:19:20,083 --> 00:19:21,708
It was like being in...
389
00:19:23,667 --> 00:19:26,667
excruciating pain, physical pain.
390
00:19:27,750 --> 00:19:29,643
And no one can do anything.
391
00:19:29,667 --> 00:19:31,500
There's nothing they can do
to take it away.
392
00:19:31,625 --> 00:19:33,726
Well, they can prescribe you medication
393
00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:36,000
and they can refer you for therapy
394
00:19:36,458 --> 00:19:38,809
but the counselling,
395
00:19:38,833 --> 00:19:42,375
the waitlists for counselling in the UK
especially, are so long.
396
00:19:42,875 --> 00:19:45,458
And the medication
can take up to four weeks to work.
397
00:19:45,792 --> 00:19:47,059
If it works at all.
398
00:19:47,083 --> 00:19:50,583
It was...
It, it really was unbearable.
399
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,809
Before I got ill,
my only awareness of
400
00:19:53,833 --> 00:19:57,958
mental health conditions
around childbirth came from films
401
00:19:58,583 --> 00:20:01,125
where it's very much "baby blues."
402
00:20:01,708 --> 00:20:04,351
"Due to changing hormones
over 80% of all women
403
00:20:04,375 --> 00:20:06,625
"experience postpartum depression."
404
00:20:08,167 --> 00:20:09,167
Well I'm not gonna.
405
00:20:09,292 --> 00:20:14,018
There's a woman
and she's got milk vomit on her sweatshirt
406
00:20:14,042 --> 00:20:16,792
and her hair's all a mess
and she can't stop crying,
407
00:20:17,125 --> 00:20:20,750
she, like, calls her mum
and sobs down the phone for a bit.
408
00:20:21,083 --> 00:20:22,792
[Grandmother]
There he is!
409
00:20:23,583 --> 00:20:25,333
And then in the next scene, she's like
410
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,875
buying shoes or something.
411
00:20:28,542 --> 00:20:30,250
[Soft, eerie rumble]
412
00:20:30,375 --> 00:20:32,292
It really was
like living in a horror film.
413
00:20:32,583 --> 00:20:34,018
My house
414
00:20:34,042 --> 00:20:37,184
This home that had once
felt completely safe
415
00:20:37,208 --> 00:20:39,833
was now the scariest place in the world.
416
00:20:41,292 --> 00:20:44,678
It was visceral. I could...
417
00:20:45,833 --> 00:20:47,476
I could taste the evil in my mouth.
418
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:50,393
I know that sounds dramatic,
but I don't really know
419
00:20:50,417 --> 00:20:51,500
how else to explain it.
420
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:54,208
And it did feel like I was possessed.
421
00:20:55,542 --> 00:20:57,013
Like there were two versions of me.
422
00:20:57,958 --> 00:20:59,143
Good me...
423
00:20:59,167 --> 00:21:00,393
I'm glad.
424
00:21:00,417 --> 00:21:01,434
[Elizabeth] And bad me.
425
00:21:01,458 --> 00:21:05,125
I can't exist by myself,
because I'm afraid of myself.
426
00:21:05,583 --> 00:21:07,792
Because I'm the maker of my own evil.
427
00:21:08,625 --> 00:21:12,393
It's the strangest feeling
to exist in your life,
428
00:21:12,417 --> 00:21:15,083
in your world,
and all the pieces of it are still there.
429
00:21:15,917 --> 00:21:19,059
Your home, your friends,
your family, your partner.
430
00:21:19,083 --> 00:21:22,125
Everything is still there.
You can see it, you can touch it.
431
00:21:23,333 --> 00:21:26,958
But all of the colour and the joy
has just drained away.
432
00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:31,518
And things you never
433
00:21:31,542 --> 00:21:34,750
ever thought would happen to you
are happening.
434
00:21:36,583 --> 00:21:42,268
These once unimaginable scenes
are just unfolding around you
435
00:21:42,292 --> 00:21:44,203
and you feel so powerless
436
00:21:44,567 --> 00:21:46,334
because there's no way for you to stop it.
437
00:21:46,358 --> 00:21:48,097
[Ruminative, eerie music]
438
00:21:48,121 --> 00:21:52,705
My friends, my family, my husband,
they all did their best to support me.
439
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,667
But increasingly I began to feel like
I was a burden
440
00:21:58,292 --> 00:22:01,042
and that everyone would be better off
without me.
441
00:22:01,417 --> 00:22:03,184
My son included.
442
00:22:03,208 --> 00:22:06,476
I thought... I thought that if I did die,
if I did kill myself
443
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:08,208
they'd be sad, sure.
444
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:10,018
But they'd probably also be like
445
00:22:10,042 --> 00:22:13,292
"Oh well, it's for the best.
Yeah, it's for the best."
446
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,000
I really, really believed that.
447
00:22:17,167 --> 00:22:21,018
I started thinking of ways I could do it.
448
00:22:21,042 --> 00:22:23,875
Not so much making plans, but definitely
449
00:22:24,042 --> 00:22:25,417
weighing up my options.
450
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,543
And then I...
451
00:22:28,567 --> 00:22:30,809
- nearly stepped in front of a van
- [Music continues]
452
00:22:30,833 --> 00:22:32,949
only stopping myself because...
453
00:22:33,266 --> 00:22:35,812
I didn't want to do that to someone else.
454
00:22:36,125 --> 00:22:38,851
I was just scared to be alone.
455
00:22:38,875 --> 00:22:41,684
I was even more scared
to be alone with my son because
456
00:22:41,708 --> 00:22:44,375
- I didn't know what I might do to him.
- [Eerie music intensifies]
457
00:22:45,042 --> 00:22:48,917
By now, my brain was playing
a constant loop of hideous scenes.
458
00:22:49,042 --> 00:22:51,917
I saw myself smothering
our son with a pillow
459
00:22:52,875 --> 00:22:55,643
dropping him
from a window on the third floor
460
00:22:55,667 --> 00:22:57,292
drowning him in the bathtub.
461
00:22:58,042 --> 00:23:00,601
And yet I loved him
more than I had ever loved
462
00:23:00,625 --> 00:23:02,417
anyone or anything.
463
00:23:02,625 --> 00:23:05,542
At night, I checked constantly
that he was still breathing.
464
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,542
Watching his little chest rise and fall.
465
00:23:10,292 --> 00:23:14,292
When he wasn't in my arms
I missed him so much my heart ached.
466
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:16,608
For the first time in my life,
467
00:23:16,632 --> 00:23:21,253
I realised I could hold the good
and the bad in my heart at the same time.
468
00:23:21,875 --> 00:23:24,393
- I could feel both at once.
- [Uneasy drum beats]
469
00:23:24,417 --> 00:23:26,583
That was terrifying.
470
00:23:27,167 --> 00:23:29,167
I felt so alone.
471
00:23:29,875 --> 00:23:31,458
[Drum beats resonate and fade]
472
00:23:31,792 --> 00:23:33,792
[Haunting, drone-like hum]
473
00:23:43,011 --> 00:23:45,059
[Music fades]
474
00:23:45,083 --> 00:23:48,792
Throughout this whole period
I was asking everyone I knew for help.
475
00:23:49,292 --> 00:23:51,542
I was posting on Twitter, which...
476
00:23:52,417 --> 00:23:56,875
Sometimes I regret posting on Twitter
when I wasn't completely in my right mind
477
00:23:57,500 --> 00:23:59,750
but still, I was posting on Twitter.
478
00:24:00,542 --> 00:24:02,559
I was messaging all the parents I knew,
479
00:24:02,583 --> 00:24:06,476
I was talking to women I'd never met
before on the phone about it.
480
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,792
I just wanted someone to say,
"Look, this is the way out
481
00:24:10,042 --> 00:24:11,500
"This is how you get out of this."
482
00:24:13,583 --> 00:24:16,393
And then a friend put me in touch
with a WhatsApp group
483
00:24:16,417 --> 00:24:19,417
of women who'd had similar illnesses
484
00:24:20,667 --> 00:24:23,226
and that just changed everything.
485
00:24:23,250 --> 00:24:25,184
So my name's Shema Tariq
486
00:24:25,208 --> 00:24:27,518
and I'm a doctor
487
00:24:27,542 --> 00:24:30,476
and researcher based at
University College London
488
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:31,875
working in HIV.
489
00:24:32,042 --> 00:24:33,708
And I'm your friend.
490
00:24:35,542 --> 00:24:38,292
[Elizabeth] Can you just remind me
of how we first met?
491
00:24:39,125 --> 00:24:42,792
So we met in summer of 2020.
492
00:24:42,958 --> 00:24:45,851
And you had just had Bertie?
493
00:24:45,875 --> 00:24:47,000
I think he was like, what?
494
00:24:47,125 --> 00:24:49,542
- Two weeks old, three weeks old?
- [Elizabeth] Yeah.
495
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:53,726
And you joined this WhatsApp group,
496
00:24:53,750 --> 00:24:54,809
Motherly Love.
497
00:24:54,833 --> 00:24:56,768
[Elizabeth] Can you just
introduce yourself for me?
498
00:24:56,792 --> 00:25:00,976
Of course.
So, my name is Milli and I am a mum of two
499
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,726
and I live in London.
500
00:25:02,750 --> 00:25:07,851
So, Motherly Love is
a peer support group for women
501
00:25:07,875 --> 00:25:11,851
who are struggling with motherhood,
and don't have a space to talk
502
00:25:11,875 --> 00:25:13,125
about the darker side of it.
503
00:25:13,625 --> 00:25:16,309
And we just started it,
as basically, a cup of tea.
504
00:25:16,333 --> 00:25:18,101
Come and have a cup of tea and a biscuit
505
00:25:18,125 --> 00:25:23,250
with other women who don't feel that they
belong within the normal baby group world.
506
00:25:24,208 --> 00:25:27,893
[Elizabeth] They just, they got it,
and they took me seriously.
507
00:25:27,917 --> 00:25:30,601
And whatever fucked up thoughts
I was having
508
00:25:30,625 --> 00:25:33,792
someone else had had them too,
and they'd got through it.
509
00:25:34,042 --> 00:25:35,708
They'd survived, they'd been there.
510
00:25:37,417 --> 00:25:43,125
It became this vital source of hope
and support, and just knowledge
511
00:25:43,417 --> 00:25:45,667
which didn't seem
to be accessible anywhere else.
512
00:25:46,417 --> 00:25:49,417
No one talks about how hard it is.
513
00:25:49,625 --> 00:25:52,417
Someone will ask you
how it's going and you're expected
514
00:25:52,542 --> 00:25:56,351
to say, "Oh, it's great, I'm really happy.
515
00:25:56,375 --> 00:25:58,518
"This baby is the centre of my world."
516
00:25:58,542 --> 00:26:01,125
And I, I didn't feel like that.
517
00:26:01,917 --> 00:26:03,917
When I had our eldest
518
00:26:04,917 --> 00:26:06,252
Like... She...
519
00:26:06,708 --> 00:26:11,083
I was really unhappy in myself,
but I loved being her mum.
520
00:26:11,875 --> 00:26:16,167
But what started to happen was,
I started to have maternal OCD
521
00:26:16,292 --> 00:26:19,042
where I believed
that I was going to hurt her.
522
00:26:19,612 --> 00:26:20,846
And...
523
00:26:21,417 --> 00:26:24,428
it's such an uncomfortable thing
to talk about because...
524
00:26:25,417 --> 00:26:27,792
I, every night I put her to bed
525
00:26:28,125 --> 00:26:31,726
I had these thoughts
that I would sexually abuse my child
526
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:35,208
and saying those words out loud
I hardly ever say that to anybody.
527
00:26:36,292 --> 00:26:39,042
But it was the most frightening thing.
528
00:26:39,542 --> 00:26:41,708
And I never spoke
to a single person about it.
529
00:26:42,125 --> 00:26:46,500
And I would self-harm because that
was the only way to stop these thoughts.
530
00:26:47,833 --> 00:26:49,068
And...
531
00:26:49,542 --> 00:26:50,792
I just lived with it.
532
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:53,518
And it was just so--
It was torture.
533
00:26:53,542 --> 00:26:55,893
[Elizabeth] Why do you think
people don't talk about that stuff?
534
00:26:55,917 --> 00:26:57,500
Why do you think it is so hidden?
535
00:26:57,625 --> 00:26:58,768
People are scared.
536
00:26:58,792 --> 00:27:01,333
I think society is scared about engaging
537
00:27:02,042 --> 00:27:05,583
with these more
difficult feelings around motherhood.
538
00:27:05,792 --> 00:27:08,184
We want to feel safe,
don't we, with mothers?
539
00:27:08,208 --> 00:27:10,792
We like to think that mothers are
540
00:27:11,333 --> 00:27:13,792
the place of ultimate safety.
541
00:27:14,375 --> 00:27:17,125
And I think even when we're grown ups
542
00:27:17,375 --> 00:27:21,167
the idea that a mother
might not like her child
543
00:27:21,292 --> 00:27:23,792
is actually deeply terrifying.
544
00:27:24,667 --> 00:27:25,934
It's a sort of very--
545
00:27:25,958 --> 00:27:29,667
Sort of primal fear
about engaging with those sort of--
546
00:27:29,792 --> 00:27:30,868
with that darker side.
547
00:27:30,892 --> 00:27:31,976
[Wind rumbles]
548
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,208
[Elizabeth] I was so scared
to be honest with anyone
549
00:27:34,458 --> 00:27:36,138
about what was really going on in my head.
550
00:27:36,875 --> 00:27:38,875
I thought they'd take my son away from me.
551
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:42,542
But after Milli, Shema,
and the other women in the group
552
00:27:42,667 --> 00:27:45,000
began to tell me about
their own experiences,
553
00:27:45,708 --> 00:27:47,726
it allowed me to finally be honest.
554
00:27:47,750 --> 00:27:48,851
[Eerie resonance]
555
00:27:48,875 --> 00:27:50,167
And they didn't judge me.
556
00:27:50,708 --> 00:27:53,875
Instead, they responded
with love and compassion.
557
00:27:55,583 --> 00:27:58,292
They made me realise
how serious my illness was
558
00:27:58,875 --> 00:28:02,917
and that this was a situation which
could have potentially tragic outcomes.
559
00:28:03,875 --> 00:28:06,667
So when I told them
I was once again feeling suicidal,
560
00:28:07,042 --> 00:28:08,500
they sprang into action.
561
00:28:08,792 --> 00:28:11,250
Do you remember that day
that you came to my house?
562
00:28:11,625 --> 00:28:14,434
- Yeah, I do, very vividly.
- [Eerie resonance fades]
563
00:28:14,458 --> 00:28:16,500
Partly because my husband was worried.
564
00:28:16,875 --> 00:28:19,768
He was like,
"You're gonna go and just meet
565
00:28:19,792 --> 00:28:24,268
"a stranger who you know nothing about
566
00:28:24,292 --> 00:28:28,750
"who says that she's really,
really struggling.
567
00:28:29,417 --> 00:28:31,518
- "And what are you going to do?"
- [Shema laughs]
568
00:28:31,542 --> 00:28:34,083
I was like, "I'm going
to pick her up and drive her to A&E."
569
00:28:35,583 --> 00:28:36,976
I was worried about you.
570
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,417
I mean, I'd been worried about
you for a few weeks, actually.
571
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,351
And I was anxious about
whether you'd get taken seriously.
572
00:28:46,375 --> 00:28:47,838
So I remember
573
00:28:48,167 --> 00:28:51,851
in that drive, almost trying to coach you,
574
00:28:51,875 --> 00:28:55,625
'cause I just wanted you to get the help
that I thought you needed.
575
00:28:56,042 --> 00:28:58,667
[Elizabeth] At the door
to the hospital Shema said to me,
576
00:28:58,958 --> 00:29:00,958
"You need to tell them everything."
577
00:29:01,917 --> 00:29:04,667
And there was an understanding
between us of what that meant.
578
00:29:05,292 --> 00:29:09,292
She told me that was the only way
to activate the next level of care.
579
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:13,042
I had tried so many times to get help.
580
00:29:13,292 --> 00:29:15,292
But it wasn't until Shema said that to me
581
00:29:15,583 --> 00:29:19,167
that I felt brave enough to tell the
doctors about the thoughts I was having.
582
00:29:19,958 --> 00:29:21,875
And when I did, they listened.
583
00:29:22,292 --> 00:29:24,851
You help so many people,
I see you do it all the time
584
00:29:24,875 --> 00:29:26,851
and you helped me, you saved my life.
585
00:29:26,875 --> 00:29:28,208
That group saved my life.
586
00:29:28,875 --> 00:29:31,542
So, thank you. Thank you so much.
587
00:29:32,208 --> 00:29:33,851
But isn't it sad?
588
00:29:33,875 --> 00:29:37,309
It's so sad, I think,
to think about our circumstances
589
00:29:37,333 --> 00:29:39,750
and how we met and that it took
590
00:29:41,167 --> 00:29:43,288
effectively a random stranger
591
00:29:43,312 --> 00:29:47,292
to be the person to advocate for you,
to say, "This is what you need to do."
592
00:29:47,667 --> 00:29:51,559
And for Shema and I
to be on the phone to one another saying,
593
00:29:51,583 --> 00:29:53,250
"We need to get her to hospital now."
594
00:29:53,708 --> 00:29:57,708
Why is it down to
average people doing that?
595
00:29:59,042 --> 00:30:01,143
Because if I didn't exist,
596
00:30:01,167 --> 00:30:03,851
that group didn't exist,
who was going to do it?
597
00:30:03,875 --> 00:30:07,167
And that's just so, so sad
598
00:30:08,047 --> 00:30:10,380
because there must be
so many other women who
599
00:30:10,667 --> 00:30:12,250
are going to slip through the net.
600
00:30:13,208 --> 00:30:14,625
It's really tragic.
601
00:30:14,875 --> 00:30:16,875
[Eerie resonance resumes]
602
00:30:17,792 --> 00:30:20,833
[Elizabeth] Two days after Shema
drove me to the emergency room
603
00:30:21,023 --> 00:30:22,856
for that fourth and final time,
604
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,000
I was admitted to a Mother and Baby Unit
605
00:30:25,208 --> 00:30:27,542
which is a psychiatric ward
for new mothers
606
00:30:27,750 --> 00:30:30,042
where their babies stay with
them in hospital.
607
00:30:30,667 --> 00:30:32,792
Walking onto the ward for the first time
608
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:35,667
I had a sort of...
609
00:30:35,958 --> 00:30:38,750
- dissociation with reality.
- [Eerie resonance builds]
610
00:30:39,250 --> 00:30:42,250
This wasn't happening to me.
I wasn't really here.
611
00:30:42,417 --> 00:30:43,917
This wasn't my life.
612
00:30:48,417 --> 00:30:49,667
I had my son with me.
613
00:30:50,208 --> 00:30:51,976
He was asleep in his pram.
614
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,292
But because of COVID
615
00:30:54,292 --> 00:30:57,378
my husband wasn't allowed
onto the ward with us, so...
616
00:30:57,945 --> 00:31:00,167
we waved goodbye to each other
617
00:31:01,292 --> 00:31:03,375
from behind this really thick glass,
618
00:31:03,792 --> 00:31:06,125
as they, like, locked the doors behind me.
619
00:31:07,167 --> 00:31:09,226
They showed me and my son to our room
620
00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:12,167
and I remember thinking it was quite nice.
621
00:31:12,375 --> 00:31:14,768
It was clean, it was quiet,
622
00:31:14,792 --> 00:31:16,958
I could see the trees through the window.
623
00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:19,417
And then another woman came into the room
624
00:31:19,656 --> 00:31:21,989
and she ordered me to open my bags
625
00:31:22,167 --> 00:31:26,101
and she, like,
snapped on these latex gloves,
626
00:31:26,125 --> 00:31:27,893
and she started
going through my belongings,
627
00:31:27,917 --> 00:31:29,917
holding things up and saying,
"What's this?"
628
00:31:30,667 --> 00:31:32,708
They took away my cables
629
00:31:32,958 --> 00:31:34,375
my dressing gown belt
630
00:31:35,083 --> 00:31:37,000
any plastic bags I had
631
00:31:37,875 --> 00:31:41,625
and my scissors,
my tweezers and my razors.
632
00:31:42,250 --> 00:31:46,542
Anything that I might use to harm myself
or my baby was confiscated.
633
00:31:46,750 --> 00:31:47,958
[Nurse]
You asked for this?
634
00:31:48,517 --> 00:31:50,657
[Resonance fades]
635
00:31:59,333 --> 00:32:00,750
Are you gonna watch?
636
00:32:01,750 --> 00:32:03,083
'Fraid so.
637
00:32:03,375 --> 00:32:05,917
That's why there's so many
fuzzy legged women around here.
638
00:32:07,667 --> 00:32:09,476
[Elizabeth] And then
they left me in a room
639
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:11,667
alone with my baby.
640
00:32:12,042 --> 00:32:14,833
And I freaked out because by this point
641
00:32:15,292 --> 00:32:17,958
my greatest fear
was to be left alone in a room
642
00:32:18,250 --> 00:32:19,500
with my son.
643
00:32:20,042 --> 00:32:22,893
The reason mother and baby units
encourage their patients
644
00:32:22,917 --> 00:32:25,101
to have their child
stay with them on the ward
645
00:32:25,125 --> 00:32:28,250
is so that they can bond
while the mother is being treated.
646
00:32:28,625 --> 00:32:31,167
This greatly increases
their chance of recovery
647
00:32:31,792 --> 00:32:33,500
which is wonderful.
648
00:32:34,792 --> 00:32:37,768
Unfortunately,
most of the patients on those wards
649
00:32:37,792 --> 00:32:40,625
are having very negative thoughts
and feelings about their babies,
650
00:32:40,958 --> 00:32:43,792
so most women do freak out at this point,
651
00:32:44,167 --> 00:32:45,292
the way I did.
652
00:32:45,542 --> 00:32:47,559
[Woman]
There's been some kind of mistake.
653
00:32:47,583 --> 00:32:49,434
[Soft, pensive music]
654
00:32:49,458 --> 00:32:51,125
I'm not supposed to be in here.
655
00:32:51,250 --> 00:32:54,643
After that, a member of staff
sat at the door to my room
656
00:32:54,667 --> 00:32:58,292
which was was wide open, by the way,
and they watched me.
657
00:32:58,583 --> 00:33:02,184
Every 15 minutes
someone would look through your door
658
00:33:02,208 --> 00:33:05,143
and write down whatever you were doing,
24 hours a day.
659
00:33:05,167 --> 00:33:08,018
So in the middle of the night, you'd have
this bright light shining on you.
660
00:33:08,042 --> 00:33:11,042
And they'd be like,
"What's she doing? Oh, she's sleeping."
661
00:33:12,167 --> 00:33:13,601
Someone I'd never met before
662
00:33:13,625 --> 00:33:17,667
watching me wash, eat, talk on the phone.
663
00:33:18,167 --> 00:33:20,917
Hi, my name is Sawyer Valentini.
664
00:33:21,208 --> 00:33:24,018
I am at
Hyland Creek Behavioural Health Facility.
665
00:33:24,042 --> 00:33:26,167
I am being held here against my will.
666
00:33:26,625 --> 00:33:28,375
Please send help.
667
00:33:29,042 --> 00:33:31,754
Do you know how many calls
the cops get like that every week?
668
00:33:31,778 --> 00:33:33,643
[Music fades]
669
00:33:33,667 --> 00:33:35,083
Those are from crazy people.
670
00:33:35,875 --> 00:33:38,518
They watched it all
and they wrote it all down.
671
00:33:38,542 --> 00:33:40,834
I immediately felt like I'd made a mistake
672
00:33:40,858 --> 00:33:43,137
- and tried to bargain my way out.
- [Tense music]
673
00:33:43,161 --> 00:33:45,101
I told them I didn't need to be there
674
00:33:45,125 --> 00:33:47,559
that actually going home
would be the best thing for me
675
00:33:47,583 --> 00:33:49,417
that I wasn't really that ill.
676
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,583
They told me I was wrong,
that I definitely needed to be there
677
00:33:53,792 --> 00:33:56,309
and that if I tried to leave
they would section me
678
00:33:56,333 --> 00:33:57,601
under the Mental Health Act,
679
00:33:57,625 --> 00:34:00,167
meaning I would be detained
against my will.
680
00:34:00,625 --> 00:34:02,167
My rights stripped away.
681
00:34:02,917 --> 00:34:05,726
- The reality of my situation hit me then.
- [Music builds]
682
00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:08,976
In only a month I had become
so unwell that I was now trapped
683
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,333
on a locked ward, trying to convince
a stranger that I wasn't mad.
684
00:34:14,125 --> 00:34:16,917
When I knew in my heart that I was mad.
685
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:19,917
And for the first time I thought,
686
00:34:20,458 --> 00:34:22,167
"I might never get out of here."
687
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,917
- I felt like a prisoner.
- [Music fades]
688
00:34:25,250 --> 00:34:28,434
We couldn't go into each other's rooms
or touch each other's babies
689
00:34:28,458 --> 00:34:30,375
when we were finally allowed outside
690
00:34:31,042 --> 00:34:33,667
we weren't allowed
to meet up with another patient.
691
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,625
We were given our pills
in one of those little paper cups.
692
00:34:38,708 --> 00:34:39,851
And I remember thinking,
693
00:34:39,875 --> 00:34:42,583
"Oh, this is like
those little paper cups in films."
694
00:34:45,833 --> 00:34:47,143
[Tense, percussive music]
695
00:34:47,167 --> 00:34:48,708
And then I met the other patients.
696
00:34:49,708 --> 00:34:51,208
They had wild eyes,
697
00:34:51,917 --> 00:34:55,458
stained clothing,
they shuffled around in their slippers.
698
00:34:56,542 --> 00:34:59,917
Some of them were crying,
others glared, angry,
699
00:35:00,625 --> 00:35:04,125
but most of them just looked
scared and lost.
700
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:07,542
Now I was surrounded by witches.
701
00:35:08,417 --> 00:35:10,167
They looked in at me through the window.
702
00:35:11,167 --> 00:35:13,417
They whispered
to each other outside my room.
703
00:35:16,417 --> 00:35:19,292
They swayed in the shadows, waiting.
704
00:35:20,167 --> 00:35:22,667
- At dinnertime, I sat down at a table
- [Music fades]
705
00:35:22,917 --> 00:35:26,208
and a woman I'd never seen before came
and sat down next to me.
706
00:35:26,625 --> 00:35:28,125
Hi, I'm Emily.
707
00:35:29,667 --> 00:35:31,750
[Elizabeth] We were soon joined
by another woman.
708
00:35:32,625 --> 00:35:34,042
Hi, I'm Jude.
709
00:35:35,375 --> 00:35:38,059
[Elizabeth] I felt an immediate connection
to Emily and Jude
710
00:35:38,083 --> 00:35:39,667
as they told me their stories.
711
00:35:40,667 --> 00:35:43,208
I had had months of...
712
00:35:45,417 --> 00:35:47,058
feeling...
713
00:35:47,917 --> 00:35:49,250
progressively worse.
714
00:35:50,542 --> 00:35:54,042
There was one specific day
I'd asked my friend,
715
00:35:54,458 --> 00:35:56,875
who is an A&E nurse, actually,
716
00:35:57,917 --> 00:35:59,500
to meet me in the park.
717
00:35:59,958 --> 00:36:01,708
And I, I just said to her
718
00:36:01,917 --> 00:36:03,934
"I don't recognise myself.
719
00:36:03,958 --> 00:36:06,351
"I looked in the mirror
and I don't recognise who I am."
720
00:36:06,375 --> 00:36:08,375
She said,
"I'm going to take you home now.
721
00:36:08,917 --> 00:36:12,101
"And I really think we need
to step this up
722
00:36:12,125 --> 00:36:16,684
"because if someone presented to me
in A&E like this
723
00:36:16,708 --> 00:36:19,875
"I would immediately
call the psychiatric team."
724
00:36:20,125 --> 00:36:22,518
[Elizabeth] What do you mean
you didn't recognise yourself?
725
00:36:22,542 --> 00:36:24,393
I looked in the mirror and I was...
726
00:36:24,417 --> 00:36:26,708
It wasn't me anymore.
727
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,542
I saw a person
728
00:36:31,083 --> 00:36:35,083
but I felt so disconnected to that person.
729
00:36:35,417 --> 00:36:37,143
I was... I was terrified.
730
00:36:37,167 --> 00:36:39,167
[Elizabeth] And Emily,
what was happening with you?
731
00:36:39,542 --> 00:36:42,792
I think pretty much
as soon as my son was born
732
00:36:42,917 --> 00:36:44,976
I sort of stopped sleeping.
733
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,625
And progressively that became
734
00:36:47,901 --> 00:36:50,061
more and more sort of horrific.
735
00:36:50,085 --> 00:36:51,684
[Soft whispering, uneasy breathing]
736
00:36:51,708 --> 00:36:56,351
This building feeling
of wanting to escape.
737
00:36:56,375 --> 00:36:58,656
[Disturbing, ghostly voice] There's
someone in the house!
738
00:37:00,343 --> 00:37:02,327
[Elizabeth] What sort of things
were you planning?
739
00:37:02,351 --> 00:37:03,768
How were you gonna escape?
740
00:37:03,792 --> 00:37:05,350
Maybe I could, like
741
00:37:05,708 --> 00:37:07,792
get a train several hours away
742
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:09,976
and hide in a hotel and not tell anyone.
743
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,625
Really, really weird.
744
00:37:11,833 --> 00:37:13,143
And then I guess...
745
00:37:13,167 --> 00:37:16,434
also that became
a bit more desperate and darker.
746
00:37:16,458 --> 00:37:20,875
And actually, how can I just,
just literally escape.
747
00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:24,264
[Elizabeth] Talking to Emily
and Jude did help
748
00:37:24,542 --> 00:37:25,708
but it wasn't enough.
749
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,143
I needed to talk to people
who had suffered
750
00:37:29,167 --> 00:37:31,000
from these illnesses and recovered.
751
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,476
A friend gave me
the phone numbers of two women
752
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:35,792
and from my room on the ward
753
00:37:36,292 --> 00:37:37,292
I called them.
754
00:37:39,208 --> 00:37:40,851
Hi, my name is Krystal.
755
00:37:40,875 --> 00:37:44,559
I'm an Associate Professor
at Manchester Metropolitan University.
756
00:37:44,583 --> 00:37:47,875
And I'm also a mum myself to
a little four year old boy called William.
757
00:37:48,667 --> 00:37:51,375
Hi, I'm Lucy. Lucy Warwick-Guasp.
758
00:37:51,625 --> 00:37:55,375
Um, and I am one of two mums
to a wonderful daughter
759
00:37:55,792 --> 00:37:57,917
who will be nine in a couple of weeks.
760
00:37:58,250 --> 00:38:00,476
[Elizabeth] Krystal and Lucy had been
on different wards
761
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:02,083
a couple of years before me.
762
00:38:03,292 --> 00:38:04,976
Both of them were now doing well
763
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,125
and had used their experiences
in their work
764
00:38:07,333 --> 00:38:10,292
to help other women
who found themselves in a similar place.
765
00:38:11,833 --> 00:38:13,958
Another person I spoke to was Sophia,
766
00:38:14,333 --> 00:38:16,542
who has never been
in a Mother and Baby Unit
767
00:38:16,958 --> 00:38:20,125
but has had experience
of postpartum depression and anxiety.
768
00:38:20,750 --> 00:38:23,018
She reached out to me
when she heard I was in the ward
769
00:38:23,042 --> 00:38:25,556
- [No audible dialogue]
- and was so kind and understanding.
770
00:38:25,750 --> 00:38:27,167
I felt very close to her.
771
00:38:28,833 --> 00:38:31,667
I'm Sophia Di Martino, and I'm an actor.
772
00:38:33,500 --> 00:38:36,083
- [Elizabeth] And do you have children?
- Yeah. Two.
773
00:38:36,583 --> 00:38:39,583
[Elizabeth] I asked these women
to tell me about their experiences,
774
00:38:40,167 --> 00:38:43,917
hoping I could use their stories
of recovery as a kind of spellbook
775
00:38:44,292 --> 00:38:46,500
to help me find a way through the storm.
776
00:38:49,250 --> 00:38:50,958
[Elizabeth] So can you just tell me,
777
00:38:51,125 --> 00:38:54,393
how did your feelings
of anxiety and depression,
778
00:38:54,417 --> 00:38:56,059
how did they first manifest?
779
00:38:56,083 --> 00:38:58,309
I was really loved up at the beginning.
780
00:38:58,333 --> 00:39:01,625
After giving birth,
until my husband went back to work.
781
00:39:02,167 --> 00:39:05,226
And when it was just me
responsible for the child
782
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:07,500
things just nosedived really,
really quickly.
783
00:39:08,042 --> 00:39:10,625
I experienced a very long labour,
784
00:39:11,042 --> 00:39:14,958
so I was left
quite traumatised really after that.
785
00:39:15,500 --> 00:39:18,083
And this then kind of continued.
786
00:39:18,208 --> 00:39:20,125
And I do remember speaking to...
787
00:39:20,792 --> 00:39:23,583
my GP quite early on, saying, you know,
788
00:39:24,125 --> 00:39:26,875
crying a lot.
I was still probably in shock.
789
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,385
I think what she was trying to do
was ascertain whether
790
00:39:29,409 --> 00:39:32,417
I was experiencing postpartum psychosis,
which I wasn't.
791
00:39:32,625 --> 00:39:35,042
But then everything else
just kind of got missed.
792
00:39:36,542 --> 00:39:40,583
Looking back,
it was post-natal depression and anxiety.
793
00:39:40,792 --> 00:39:44,625
But it started off as, like,
a chronic insomnia.
794
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:46,934
I thought I was going to die.
795
00:39:46,958 --> 00:39:48,375
I remember asking the midwife,
796
00:39:48,667 --> 00:39:51,875
"How much no sleep
does it take to kill a person?
797
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,393
"Like can you die from having no sleep?."
798
00:39:54,417 --> 00:39:57,268
And she was like, "No of course not.
799
00:39:57,292 --> 00:39:59,393
"Of course you can't die
from having no sleep!"
800
00:39:59,417 --> 00:40:01,393
But I think you actually probably can
801
00:40:01,417 --> 00:40:03,417
because I felt my body...
802
00:40:03,708 --> 00:40:04,875
like...
803
00:40:05,083 --> 00:40:06,250
giving up.
804
00:40:06,417 --> 00:40:08,625
I couldn't work anything out.
I couldn't work out...
805
00:40:09,125 --> 00:40:12,559
I remember lining up
my glasses in the morning thinking
806
00:40:12,583 --> 00:40:14,900
"If I put them there,
then I'll remember to put them on."
807
00:40:14,925 --> 00:40:16,651
You know, everything becomes like
808
00:40:16,676 --> 00:40:18,843
how do I navigate my home
809
00:40:19,667 --> 00:40:21,351
with a... with a baby as well?
810
00:40:21,375 --> 00:40:22,696
And I couldn't quite work it out.
811
00:40:23,667 --> 00:40:27,917
I had this sort of heartbreak
when my second child was born
812
00:40:28,042 --> 00:40:30,917
because I loved my baby so much, of course
813
00:40:31,133 --> 00:40:34,268
but I realised that I-- Oh God,
814
00:40:34,292 --> 00:40:35,625
That I couldn't...
815
00:40:35,875 --> 00:40:38,917
be with my first child as much,
just me and him.
816
00:40:39,667 --> 00:40:42,042
And I was just heartbroken.
817
00:40:42,167 --> 00:40:45,000
The reality of being in the hospital,
away from him
818
00:40:45,583 --> 00:40:46,583
for a few days
819
00:40:47,917 --> 00:40:49,917
just, just broke my heart.
820
00:40:51,542 --> 00:40:55,393
And I was just desperate
to not be on my own with him.
821
00:40:55,417 --> 00:40:59,000
So I'd be driving to my friend's house
822
00:40:59,125 --> 00:41:01,250
for a few hours just so
that I wouldn't be on my own
823
00:41:01,417 --> 00:41:04,393
and thinking desperately
how I would fill each day.
824
00:41:04,417 --> 00:41:06,976
But it just spiralled
and got worse and worse and worse
825
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,375
until I was admitted to
a Mother and Baby Unit.
826
00:41:10,125 --> 00:41:12,601
The other women on the ward
were all fellow
827
00:41:12,625 --> 00:41:15,542
sufferers of
perinatal mental health issues.
828
00:41:16,417 --> 00:41:18,542
Some had been there for months already.
829
00:41:19,167 --> 00:41:22,042
Some had even given birth
while they were staying on the ward.
830
00:41:22,542 --> 00:41:25,226
Most of them had
anxiety and depression like me
831
00:41:25,250 --> 00:41:27,000
but some women had psychosis.
832
00:41:28,625 --> 00:41:30,625
[Eerie resonance]
833
00:41:39,250 --> 00:41:40,500
[Eerie resonance fades]
834
00:41:40,708 --> 00:41:42,083
This is Catherine Cho.
835
00:41:42,375 --> 00:41:45,833
The author of
Inferno: A Memoir
of Motherhood and Madness
,
836
00:41:46,458 --> 00:41:49,583
which details her experience
of postpartum psychosis.
837
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:53,393
Catherine wasn't on the ward
with me but she and her book
838
00:41:53,417 --> 00:41:56,292
have helped me
to better understand these illnesses.
839
00:41:57,917 --> 00:42:01,500
[Elizabeth] How is psychosis different to,
say, anxiety or depression?
840
00:42:01,684 --> 00:42:05,643
So psychosis is a complete separation
from reality.
841
00:42:05,667 --> 00:42:08,664
[Magical chiming;
Sing-song murmuring of children]
842
00:42:09,792 --> 00:42:12,559
The wall between
what your brain is experiencing
843
00:42:12,583 --> 00:42:15,042
and all the memories
and the subconscious is broken
844
00:42:15,375 --> 00:42:17,367
and genuinely it felt like
845
00:42:17,656 --> 00:42:19,518
everything I'd ever experienced,
read about or
846
00:42:19,542 --> 00:42:22,333
known was being processed
at the same time.
847
00:42:23,542 --> 00:42:26,518
[Elizabeth] What kind of things were
you seeing during that psychosis?
848
00:42:26,542 --> 00:42:29,458
[Catherine] First it started with
seeing devils in my son's eyes.
849
00:42:29,667 --> 00:42:32,750
That was the first indication
that something was wrong.
850
00:42:33,417 --> 00:42:35,000
I started seeing demons.
851
00:42:35,708 --> 00:42:38,000
I heard the voice of God talking to me.
852
00:42:38,208 --> 00:42:39,904
I saw a lot of figures.
853
00:42:39,928 --> 00:42:42,018
I felt them as well,
which is kind of terrifying.
854
00:42:42,042 --> 00:42:43,750
You could feel people brush past you.
855
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:45,958
The food that was given to me
looked like flesh.
856
00:42:46,375 --> 00:42:49,125
And I could see people preparing the flesh
and bringing it to me.
857
00:42:49,292 --> 00:42:52,226
My husband's face wasn't his own.
I saw, you know, robots.
858
00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:57,417
Basically a lot of just very vivid imagery
and continually, devils.
859
00:42:58,250 --> 00:42:59,476
And demons.
860
00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:01,518
The nurses looked like devils to me.
861
00:43:01,542 --> 00:43:04,143
[Unsettling, instrumental music;
Grandfather clock tocks]
862
00:43:04,167 --> 00:43:06,226
I could feel them kind of pulling at me,
863
00:43:06,250 --> 00:43:09,625
tearing at me, even though
I know now that wasn't happening.
864
00:43:09,875 --> 00:43:12,875
My husband took me to A&E
when he realised I was not well.
865
00:43:13,625 --> 00:43:15,184
I thought we were in purgatory,
866
00:43:15,208 --> 00:43:19,601
and I could see people
pushing microphones, lights and screens
867
00:43:19,625 --> 00:43:21,768
and kind of laughing like,
this is really funny.
868
00:43:21,792 --> 00:43:24,226
And I was trying to convince him
that we were on a film set,
869
00:43:24,250 --> 00:43:25,583
that we were in purgatory
870
00:43:25,792 --> 00:43:27,125
and we that needed to exit.
871
00:43:27,292 --> 00:43:29,643
And he was just like, "Be quiet."
872
00:43:29,667 --> 00:43:32,809
[Elizabeth] Can you tell me
about waking up in the psychiatric unit?
873
00:43:32,833 --> 00:43:35,542
[Catherine] I woke up in a blank room,
a white room...
874
00:43:37,083 --> 00:43:39,393
with no memory of what was going on.
875
00:43:39,417 --> 00:43:40,684
I woke up alone.
876
00:43:40,708 --> 00:43:43,226
This was after four days of psychosis.
877
00:43:43,250 --> 00:43:46,542
And eventually, by the time
I'd been brought to the ward
878
00:43:46,958 --> 00:43:49,958
I had stripped off my clothes
and urinated on the floor.
879
00:43:50,292 --> 00:43:54,500
And they left me in there
to wake up after sedating me.
880
00:43:55,167 --> 00:43:59,393
It felt like I was in a film,
that moment of, where am I?
881
00:43:59,417 --> 00:44:00,500
What had happened?
882
00:44:01,542 --> 00:44:04,292
There was nothing for me to do
except to get out of the bed,
883
00:44:04,750 --> 00:44:08,668
put on some clothes and step outside,
which is what I did.
884
00:44:08,692 --> 00:44:10,268
[Subtle unsettling resonance]
885
00:44:10,292 --> 00:44:12,934
[Elizabeth] Catherine became unwell
during a trip to America
886
00:44:12,958 --> 00:44:15,476
and didn't have access
to a specialist Mother and Baby Unit,
887
00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:16,542
like I did.
888
00:44:17,292 --> 00:44:21,583
Instead, she was separated from her son
and treated on a general adult ward.
889
00:44:23,708 --> 00:44:28,125
[Catherine] So, most of the people
in the facility were homeless or veterans,
890
00:44:29,167 --> 00:44:31,375
people who had drug abuse issues.
891
00:44:32,417 --> 00:44:34,581
People who had fallen through the system,
essentially.
892
00:44:34,866 --> 00:44:37,476
- [Eerie resonance fades]
- [Elizabeth] Before you became unwell,
893
00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:40,059
what did you know about
postpartum psychosis?
894
00:44:40,083 --> 00:44:43,583
I did know the very famous case in the US,
Andrea Yates.
895
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:46,667
But it wasn't until
I was recovering that I realised
896
00:44:46,875 --> 00:44:48,018
we had the same diagnosis.
897
00:44:48,042 --> 00:44:50,250
I didn't know that it was
postpartum psychosis.
898
00:44:50,875 --> 00:44:53,042
[Elizabeth] Can you tell me a bit
about Andrea Yates?
899
00:44:53,375 --> 00:44:56,292
Andrea Yates, this happened,
I think, in 2001.
900
00:44:56,583 --> 00:44:58,101
She was a woman in Texas
901
00:44:58,125 --> 00:45:00,917
and she drowned
her five children in a bathtub.
902
00:45:01,458 --> 00:45:05,875
She was charged with murder and
they were looking for the death penalty.
903
00:45:06,292 --> 00:45:08,601
But it was her husband
who really stepped in
904
00:45:08,625 --> 00:45:11,167
and he said he didn't blame her
for what she had done.
905
00:45:11,625 --> 00:45:15,018
But I think the general public
just didn't understand
906
00:45:15,042 --> 00:45:16,292
and was genuinely horrified.
907
00:45:16,417 --> 00:45:20,625
And she's still very much
a polarising figure, I think, in the US.
908
00:45:21,583 --> 00:45:24,625
[Elizabeth] There are just two Mother
and Baby Units in the US.
909
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:27,524
In the UK we have 22,
910
00:45:27,724 --> 00:45:31,542
which is in part due to the tragic death
of Dr Daksha Emson.
911
00:45:31,961 --> 00:45:33,586
A brilliant psychiatrist
912
00:45:33,958 --> 00:45:36,571
who lived only a few miles
from where I gave birth.
913
00:45:37,792 --> 00:45:39,833
Well, my name's Dave Emson
914
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:44,643
and I was the... husband to Daksha
915
00:45:44,667 --> 00:45:46,375
and the father to Freya.
916
00:45:46,917 --> 00:45:49,934
[Elizabeth] So prior to becoming a mother,
Daksha had been diagnosed
917
00:45:49,958 --> 00:45:51,333
with manic depression
918
00:45:51,750 --> 00:45:53,125
and was on medication.
919
00:45:53,667 --> 00:45:56,125
How did her pregnancy affect that?
920
00:45:57,125 --> 00:45:59,393
So she had to be off her lithium,
921
00:45:59,417 --> 00:46:01,750
her antidepressant, and her thyroxine.
922
00:46:02,542 --> 00:46:05,875
And we were very lucky
'cause we conceived straight away
923
00:46:06,833 --> 00:46:08,833
and then, miscarriage.
924
00:46:12,333 --> 00:46:16,583
We got pregnant again straight away
and then another miscarriage.
925
00:46:19,708 --> 00:46:21,768
And all this time
she's off her medication.
926
00:46:21,792 --> 00:46:24,792
So it's almost like
that time bomb is ticking away.
927
00:46:25,955 --> 00:46:28,747
And in the end, you know,
the dream came true
928
00:46:29,292 --> 00:46:31,657
and she was pregnant with Freya.
929
00:46:32,875 --> 00:46:34,500
And then Freya was born.
930
00:46:36,292 --> 00:46:37,792
I'm sure, all you--
931
00:46:38,375 --> 00:46:41,750
All fathers will know,
especially with a first baby,
932
00:46:42,237 --> 00:46:43,739
what a magical experience.
933
00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:46,542
[Elizabeth] Daksha was keen
to breastfeed.
934
00:46:46,667 --> 00:46:49,333
So the couple agreed,
along with her psychiatrist,
935
00:46:49,792 --> 00:46:53,458
that she could stay off her medication
for a further three months.
936
00:46:54,667 --> 00:46:57,518
We discussed her medication,
her signs, her illness
937
00:46:57,542 --> 00:47:02,875
before she got pregnant,
during and afterwards on a daily basis.
938
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,893
But it was in that last week
that I realised
939
00:47:06,917 --> 00:47:09,018
it was three months
that she's been breastfeeding
940
00:47:09,042 --> 00:47:10,792
and she's been off her medication
941
00:47:10,917 --> 00:47:13,458
and had three miscarriages before that.
942
00:47:14,375 --> 00:47:16,518
So I did mention to her that, you know,
943
00:47:16,542 --> 00:47:18,333
it was probably time to go on medication.
944
00:47:19,792 --> 00:47:21,125
She didn't want to.
945
00:47:22,292 --> 00:47:25,167
[Elizabeth] Daksha was suffering
from postpartum psychosis
946
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,500
but no one around her knew.
947
00:47:28,500 --> 00:47:30,542
She was scared that if she told anyone
948
00:47:30,792 --> 00:47:33,152
then Freya would be taken away from her.
949
00:47:33,875 --> 00:47:35,851
And she was afraid of being stigmatised
950
00:47:35,875 --> 00:47:38,988
by her colleagues
if she told her psychiatrist the truth.
951
00:47:39,629 --> 00:47:41,668
[Elizabeth] The day Daksha and Freya died,
952
00:47:41,827 --> 00:47:43,202
Dave had been at work.
953
00:47:43,917 --> 00:47:45,583
As I got to the front door
954
00:47:46,583 --> 00:47:48,625
there was a very, very strong smell.
955
00:47:50,042 --> 00:47:52,059
So I went to the kitchen,
Freya's pram was there
956
00:47:52,083 --> 00:47:53,500
but she wasn't in her pram.
957
00:47:57,958 --> 00:48:00,208
There was something on the table,
it was a...
958
00:48:01,208 --> 00:48:02,833
an A4 piece of paper.
959
00:48:04,125 --> 00:48:05,875
I picked up the note and...
960
00:48:06,667 --> 00:48:08,349
I just read the first word.
961
00:48:12,042 --> 00:48:13,560
And then...
962
00:48:14,375 --> 00:48:15,917
I knew what that smell was.
963
00:48:18,125 --> 00:48:21,250
[Elizabeth] The day before
Daksha killed herself and Freya
964
00:48:21,917 --> 00:48:23,976
Dave had taken this photo of them.
965
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,000
[Soft, pensive piano music]
966
00:48:26,458 --> 00:48:28,375
She was brilliant at hiding her feelings.
967
00:48:29,542 --> 00:48:31,542
So the photograph that I took
968
00:48:32,667 --> 00:48:34,075
big smiling face...
969
00:48:34,500 --> 00:48:35,861
she'd already planned it.
970
00:48:38,125 --> 00:48:40,271
[Ethereal vocalising joins]
971
00:48:42,750 --> 00:48:45,684
[Elizabeth] The impact
of Daksha and Freya's legacy on cases
972
00:48:45,708 --> 00:48:48,294
like mine cannot be understated.
973
00:48:49,167 --> 00:48:51,681
Their story has been used internationally
974
00:48:51,705 --> 00:48:55,042
to emphasise the importance
of perinatal mental health training.
975
00:48:56,083 --> 00:48:58,083
[Music and vocalising conclude]
976
00:48:58,875 --> 00:49:01,583
[Elizabeth] Why is it important
to you to talk about it?
977
00:49:02,542 --> 00:49:03,792
I have to do this.
978
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,250
I cannot allow my girls
979
00:49:09,458 --> 00:49:11,427
and other mums and babies
980
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:14,708
to die in vain.
981
00:49:19,333 --> 00:49:21,849
You know, what happened to Daksha was
982
00:49:22,500 --> 00:49:24,333
a complete and utter tragedy.
983
00:49:25,458 --> 00:49:27,893
And sadly, you know,
I've been involved in looking at
984
00:49:27,917 --> 00:49:31,292
the reports from her death
and from Freya's death
985
00:49:31,917 --> 00:49:34,286
and sort of learning lessons from...
986
00:49:35,937 --> 00:49:38,726
from her death and from Freya's death.
987
00:49:40,333 --> 00:49:41,891
And actually, you know...
988
00:49:42,486 --> 00:49:45,023
Gosh, I might get quite tearful but...
989
00:49:46,667 --> 00:49:48,527
for her, um...
990
00:49:50,583 --> 00:49:51,583
Sorry.
991
00:49:51,833 --> 00:49:55,792
That really shocked
the medical world when it happened.
992
00:49:56,292 --> 00:49:59,043
- [Soft, ambient music]
- That a doctor, a very gifted doctor
993
00:49:59,067 --> 00:50:00,401
took her own life.
994
00:50:00,708 --> 00:50:05,643
And it made it very clear
to people that organised services
995
00:50:05,667 --> 00:50:07,101
that there is a difference between
996
00:50:07,125 --> 00:50:10,101
the way psychosis presents
in the normal population
997
00:50:10,125 --> 00:50:13,792
and how it presents
in the postnatal population.
998
00:50:14,083 --> 00:50:16,083
The condition comes on faster.
999
00:50:16,708 --> 00:50:18,708
Presentations can change within minutes
1000
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:20,309
whereas in the general population
1001
00:50:20,333 --> 00:50:23,042
it could take weeks to months
to see the same changes.
1002
00:50:23,250 --> 00:50:25,660
It's considered a psychiatric emergency.
1003
00:50:25,958 --> 00:50:27,125
We don't have many of them.
1004
00:50:27,417 --> 00:50:29,792
As the years go on I sort of often think
1005
00:50:30,792 --> 00:50:34,917
what state of mind she must have been in
to have been so psychotic.
1006
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,101
I don't know-- I have no idea
what was going on in her head.
1007
00:50:39,125 --> 00:50:40,792
And no one will know.
1008
00:50:41,375 --> 00:50:43,375
Her husband won't know.
Nobody will know.
1009
00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:48,750
But to have got to that point
of psychosis where
1010
00:50:49,070 --> 00:50:50,737
that was the exit route
1011
00:50:52,125 --> 00:50:53,792
whether it was for...
1012
00:50:55,583 --> 00:50:57,768
Through the psychosis,
she thought she was saving
1013
00:50:57,792 --> 00:50:59,875
herself and Freya, I don't know.
1014
00:51:00,708 --> 00:51:01,708
I don't know.
1015
00:51:02,083 --> 00:51:05,750
[Elizabeth] It has been over 20 years
since Daksha and Freya died.
1016
00:51:06,167 --> 00:51:08,434
But what happened
to them is still happening.
1017
00:51:08,458 --> 00:51:09,601
[Music concludes]
1018
00:51:09,625 --> 00:51:13,643
So in 2000,
one of the factors that shocked the UK
1019
00:51:13,667 --> 00:51:19,500
and more globally was the fact
that suicide was a leading cause of death
1020
00:51:20,042 --> 00:51:22,542
in the pregnancy period
and just afterwards.
1021
00:51:22,750 --> 00:51:26,125
And in November last year, 2022,
1022
00:51:26,583 --> 00:51:29,434
we had the latest triennial report.
1023
00:51:29,458 --> 00:51:30,476
And guess what?
1024
00:51:30,500 --> 00:51:36,184
Suicide is still a leading cause
of maternal deaths in the UK.
1025
00:51:36,208 --> 00:51:37,976
So nothing has changed.
1026
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,042
In fact, the awful statistic
from last year is that
1027
00:51:41,917 --> 00:51:44,167
the rates of suicide
have actually gone up.
1028
00:51:44,667 --> 00:51:47,417
Even with the expansion of services,
1029
00:51:47,917 --> 00:51:51,417
there are gaps in women coming
through the door in the first place.
1030
00:51:51,792 --> 00:51:54,292
You've got all these women
who wouldn't even dare
1031
00:51:54,625 --> 00:51:57,893
tell their GP or their midwife
or their social worker
1032
00:51:57,917 --> 00:51:59,750
whoever it is, that they're suffering
1033
00:51:59,917 --> 00:52:01,625
because they're worried what might happen.
1034
00:52:04,083 --> 00:52:07,101
One of the most common things
that we get in our service is,
1035
00:52:07,125 --> 00:52:10,184
"Oh I was worried that if my GP
referred me to you
1036
00:52:10,208 --> 00:52:11,667
"that you'd take my baby away."
1037
00:52:12,250 --> 00:52:13,417
I can count on one hand
1038
00:52:13,542 --> 00:52:16,750
the number of women
who've had their children removed.
1039
00:52:17,167 --> 00:52:20,476
And I've treated thousands
and thousands of women.
1040
00:52:20,500 --> 00:52:22,083
There's a stigma around mental health
1041
00:52:22,500 --> 00:52:25,559
but the stigma around motherhood
is huge as well.
1042
00:52:25,583 --> 00:52:27,250
To say you're not a good mother
1043
00:52:27,667 --> 00:52:29,351
is probably the worst insult
1044
00:52:29,375 --> 00:52:31,167
a woman would ever hear in their life.
1045
00:52:31,667 --> 00:52:32,917
It cuts very deep.
1046
00:52:33,375 --> 00:52:37,226
So there's this idea
that being referred to somebody "like us"
1047
00:52:37,250 --> 00:52:38,708
or someone like me,
1048
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,625
this internal idea of
1049
00:52:41,042 --> 00:52:42,184
"Am I a failure?"
1050
00:52:42,208 --> 00:52:44,250
"Am I not a good mum?"
1051
00:52:44,667 --> 00:52:48,333
And I think women struggle with that even
before they get through the door.
1052
00:52:49,083 --> 00:52:51,083
[Elizabeth] Do you ever feel guilty
as a mother?
1053
00:52:53,750 --> 00:52:57,375
I think I feel guilty
as a mother a lot of the time.
1054
00:52:58,125 --> 00:53:01,176
The moment you find out you're pregnant,
1055
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:02,417
the guilt begins
1056
00:53:03,750 --> 00:53:05,809
and I don't think it ever stops.
1057
00:53:05,833 --> 00:53:09,906
There's so many pressures
and so many expectations.
1058
00:53:10,083 --> 00:53:11,351
Am I doing enough?
1059
00:53:11,375 --> 00:53:13,768
Have I given them enough time
or enough space?
1060
00:53:13,792 --> 00:53:18,042
Am I providing for them in all the ways
that I should be or could be?
1061
00:53:18,583 --> 00:53:19,851
Feel guilty about working.
1062
00:53:19,875 --> 00:53:21,101
Feel guilty about not working.
1063
00:53:21,125 --> 00:53:22,309
Feel guilty about
1064
00:53:22,333 --> 00:53:26,101
spending too much time with one child
and not the other child.
1065
00:53:26,125 --> 00:53:28,768
Feel guilty about not spending enough time
with your children.
1066
00:53:28,792 --> 00:53:30,952
Feel guilty about not spending enough time
on yourself.
1067
00:53:31,125 --> 00:53:35,125
And there's a lot of shame as well,
around...
1068
00:53:36,417 --> 00:53:37,583
being a mum and not...
1069
00:53:37,917 --> 00:53:41,292
People not wanting to show the messy bits.
1070
00:53:41,710 --> 00:53:43,502
And there's a lot of shame around
1071
00:53:44,250 --> 00:53:46,351
being ill after having a child.
1072
00:53:46,375 --> 00:53:48,042
There is a lot of shame around that.
1073
00:53:48,375 --> 00:53:51,143
[Elizabeth] Why do you think
you were scared,
1074
00:53:51,167 --> 00:53:53,917
or you didn't tell people
that you were going into the unit?
1075
00:53:54,458 --> 00:53:56,958
Well, it is, it's just all that judgement.
1076
00:53:57,583 --> 00:53:59,583
Didn't want people to think
1077
00:54:00,583 --> 00:54:01,875
badly of me
1078
00:54:02,792 --> 00:54:04,542
that I'd been a failure.
1079
00:54:05,583 --> 00:54:06,824
Yeah.
1080
00:54:07,375 --> 00:54:09,393
And I do remember
there was two other women,
1081
00:54:09,417 --> 00:54:12,708
who had babies that were
the same age as our daughter
1082
00:54:13,458 --> 00:54:15,434
and one of them
had friends visit and things
1083
00:54:15,458 --> 00:54:17,458
and I was like, "God that's brave."
1084
00:54:18,988 --> 00:54:20,021
I hid from my friends.
1085
00:54:20,045 --> 00:54:22,501
So I remember in the Mother and Baby Unit
my friends turned up
1086
00:54:22,525 --> 00:54:25,609
and they'd just come to see me
and I was like, "I can't see them",
1087
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,184
because I just
didn't feel like me anymore.
1088
00:54:28,711 --> 00:54:30,613
What am I gonna say to them, you know?
1089
00:54:30,637 --> 00:54:33,417
When they're sat there, like...
I can't make small talk because
1090
00:54:33,958 --> 00:54:36,527
they've come to see
their friend and their friend's gone.
1091
00:54:38,125 --> 00:54:41,726
[Elizabeth] So that guilt and shame
that you felt, which I felt,
1092
00:54:41,750 --> 00:54:45,792
which seems to be almost universal
when it comes to motherhood.
1093
00:54:46,875 --> 00:54:48,708
Where do you think that comes from?
1094
00:54:50,708 --> 00:54:54,559
I don't know. I wish I knew because
I'd find it and I'd fucking get rid of it.
1095
00:54:54,583 --> 00:54:55,601
I don't know.
1096
00:54:55,625 --> 00:54:57,708
It just must be a subconscious
1097
00:54:58,875 --> 00:55:02,434
societal thing that is drip fed into us
1098
00:55:02,458 --> 00:55:05,083
since being born.
1099
00:55:06,875 --> 00:55:08,875
I don't know, do you know?
1100
00:55:09,542 --> 00:55:12,184
[Elizabeth] Maybe women don't want
to talk about the dark thoughts
1101
00:55:12,208 --> 00:55:13,893
and feelings we have
1102
00:55:13,917 --> 00:55:16,417
because we don't want to be
the Wicked Witch.
1103
00:55:17,083 --> 00:55:19,587
- [Uneasy, drone-like hum]
- Or maybe it goes back even further
1104
00:55:19,611 --> 00:55:23,458
to the women who were accused as witches
hundreds of years ago.
1105
00:55:23,667 --> 00:55:25,643
The ones I read about in school,
1106
00:55:25,667 --> 00:55:28,684
the women whose names
went round and round my head.
1107
00:55:28,708 --> 00:55:31,792
[Hum fades;
Eerie, vocal resonance]
1108
00:55:44,417 --> 00:55:46,417
[Vocal resonance concludes]
1109
00:55:48,083 --> 00:55:49,167
Wow, this is heavy.
1110
00:55:50,750 --> 00:55:53,117
[Elizabeth] So these are testimonies
of women who confessed
1111
00:55:53,141 --> 00:55:56,101
to being witches
in the 15th and 16th century.
1112
00:55:56,125 --> 00:55:57,584
Wow.
1113
00:55:57,608 --> 00:55:59,903
- Okay, and just read them one by one?
- [Eerie resonance]
1114
00:55:59,927 --> 00:56:00,927
Okay.
1115
00:56:01,167 --> 00:56:04,518
Anna Moats confessed
within two hours of her arrest
1116
00:56:04,542 --> 00:56:06,809
saying the devil appeared
to her when she was alone
1117
00:56:06,833 --> 00:56:10,125
in her house,
cursing her husband and children.
1118
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:14,059
Mary Scrutton confessed
that the devil appeared to her twice
1119
00:56:14,083 --> 00:56:15,309
once as a bear,
1120
00:56:15,333 --> 00:56:16,934
then again as a cat
1121
00:56:16,958 --> 00:56:21,417
and tempted Mary in a hollow voice
to kill her child.
1122
00:56:23,292 --> 00:56:25,708
Susannah Smith confessed
the day after her arrest
1123
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,917
that eighteen years previously
1124
00:56:28,125 --> 00:56:30,792
the devil had appeared
to her in the form of a red dog
1125
00:56:31,125 --> 00:56:33,125
and tempted her to kill her children.
1126
00:56:33,250 --> 00:56:34,625
[Resonance increases]
1127
00:56:34,750 --> 00:56:37,738
Priscilla Collitt confessed
that the devil had appeared to her
1128
00:56:37,762 --> 00:56:40,101
when she was sick
some twelve years previously
1129
00:56:40,125 --> 00:56:43,125
and tempted her to kill
her children to escape poverty.
1130
00:56:44,792 --> 00:56:47,500
She placed one of her children
next to the fire to burn it.
1131
00:56:47,875 --> 00:56:51,167
Fortunately, another child pulled the baby
away from the fire.
1132
00:56:52,375 --> 00:56:56,417
[Elizabeth] So that to me sounds
like somebody developing a...
1133
00:56:57,042 --> 00:56:58,542
postpartum psychosis
1134
00:57:00,292 --> 00:57:03,309
or a severe depression,
but it certainly sounds
1135
00:57:03,333 --> 00:57:06,917
like somebody dipping into a psychosis.
1136
00:57:07,333 --> 00:57:09,493
[Elizabeth] Can you relate to
any of those testimonies?
1137
00:57:10,042 --> 00:57:15,125
I mean, I think the voices for sure,
the kind of voices and...
1138
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:17,750
the idea that it is a devil.
1139
00:57:18,208 --> 00:57:20,667
Oh, the devil appears
all the time in psychosis. Yeah.
1140
00:57:20,875 --> 00:57:22,715
[Elizabeth] Where do you think
that comes from?
1141
00:57:23,167 --> 00:57:26,167
It's really interesting. I think it's...
1142
00:57:26,875 --> 00:57:31,000
something to do with
the way women start to think
1143
00:57:31,250 --> 00:57:35,101
in that postnatal period,
particularly when they're depressed
1144
00:57:35,125 --> 00:57:38,417
or they're developing a depression
and then a psychosis.
1145
00:57:38,667 --> 00:57:42,428
They bring in either
their own faith or their own religion
1146
00:57:42,452 --> 00:57:45,119
or I guess a more sort of global
1147
00:57:45,542 --> 00:57:48,226
interpretation of good and evil,
1148
00:57:48,250 --> 00:57:49,542
devils and angels.
1149
00:57:49,708 --> 00:57:50,934
[Soft, pensive music]
1150
00:57:50,958 --> 00:57:53,708
[Elizabeth] Those witch trials were
such a long time ago
1151
00:57:54,417 --> 00:57:57,750
and yet I can relate to
so much of what the women were saying.
1152
00:57:58,500 --> 00:58:01,500
It is chilling to realise
that if I'd been alive back then
1153
00:58:02,542 --> 00:58:03,917
I would have been considered evil
1154
00:58:04,875 --> 00:58:06,083
and I would have been killed.
1155
00:58:06,250 --> 00:58:07,875
[Soft, pensive ambient music increases]
1156
00:58:08,187 --> 00:58:12,437
In the 15th and 16th centuries
thousands of executions took place
1157
00:58:12,917 --> 00:58:16,323
usually by either hanging
or burning the accused at the stake.
1158
00:58:17,375 --> 00:58:20,625
The witch trials ripped through
communities with devastating effect.
1159
00:58:21,250 --> 00:58:24,583
In Europe and North America
around 50,000 women were killed.
1160
00:58:26,125 --> 00:58:32,000
In 1585, two German villages were left
with only one female inhabitant in each.
1161
00:58:33,665 --> 00:58:35,461
- [Music fades]
- I'm Professor Marion Gibson
1162
00:58:35,485 --> 00:58:37,069
and I work at Exeter University
1163
00:58:37,093 --> 00:58:39,936
where I'm professor
of Renaissance and Magical Studies.
1164
00:58:40,292 --> 00:58:43,315
[Elizabeth] And what is it
that you find interesting about witches?
1165
00:58:43,917 --> 00:58:46,226
I've always been interested in witches,
actually.
1166
00:58:46,250 --> 00:58:47,583
When I went to university,
1167
00:58:47,833 --> 00:58:50,458
they gave me
a kind of newspaper account of witches
1168
00:58:50,833 --> 00:58:53,833
of a witch trial in Elizabethan Essex.
1169
00:58:54,167 --> 00:58:58,601
And in it there were these voices of women
that I became fascinated by
1170
00:58:58,625 --> 00:59:01,101
because these are women
that we didn't normally hear from.
1171
00:59:01,125 --> 00:59:04,042
You know, they weren't in the literature
that I was reading.
1172
00:59:04,167 --> 00:59:05,601
They weren't in the history books.
1173
00:59:05,625 --> 00:59:08,333
They were ordinary women,
and they were talking about their lives.
1174
00:59:08,542 --> 00:59:10,726
And the way they were doing that
was framing it through
1175
00:59:10,750 --> 00:59:13,518
narratives of witchcraft
and I thought that was fascinating.
1176
00:59:13,542 --> 00:59:14,768
[Energetic, percussive music]
1177
00:59:14,792 --> 00:59:16,746
[Elizabeth] These atrocities
were playing out
1178
00:59:16,770 --> 00:59:19,260
against a backdrop
of normal, everyday life.
1179
00:59:19,792 --> 00:59:23,958
Women in their kitchens feeling
the devil's presence as they baked bread.
1180
00:59:24,417 --> 00:59:26,643
- The devil lives in domestic spaces
- [Music continues]
1181
00:59:26,667 --> 00:59:30,792
and he lives in ordinary foods
and he lives in ordinary objects.
1182
00:59:31,125 --> 00:59:35,717
And you can use those ordinary objects
to bewitch your neighbours.
1183
00:59:35,850 --> 00:59:37,976
And I think that's
one of the most frightening things
1184
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,268
about the idea of the witch.
1185
00:59:39,292 --> 00:59:41,833
It's all so ordinary. It's all so mundane.
1186
00:59:41,958 --> 00:59:43,726
Anybody could be a witch.
1187
00:59:43,750 --> 00:59:46,583
Anything that crosses
your path in the course of your day
1188
00:59:46,917 --> 00:59:48,268
might be bewitched.
1189
00:59:48,292 --> 00:59:52,042
And the idea that your whole world
is threatening to you
1190
00:59:52,167 --> 00:59:54,750
your whole world
is full of witchcraft and the devil
1191
00:59:55,167 --> 00:59:58,083
I think is a very frightening thing
for people in this period.
1192
00:59:58,500 --> 01:00:00,934
[Elizabeth] Many of the women
accused as witches were people
1193
01:00:00,958 --> 01:00:03,458
who lived outside of the established norms
1194
01:00:04,208 --> 01:00:06,333
- who dared to rebel.
- [Music continues]
1195
01:00:07,958 --> 01:00:12,167
Even back then the witch was the
stereotypical opposite of the good mother
1196
01:00:13,083 --> 01:00:14,167
the good wife.
1197
01:00:14,625 --> 01:00:17,518
She was the woman
who was trying to act independently
1198
01:00:17,542 --> 01:00:18,875
of male control.
1199
01:00:19,375 --> 01:00:22,018
Witchcraft trials are
all about power and control.
1200
01:00:22,042 --> 01:00:23,351
They're about controlling women.
1201
01:00:23,375 --> 01:00:25,417
They're about
controlling people generally.
1202
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:28,018
They're about telling you what to believe
1203
01:00:28,042 --> 01:00:30,583
and making you affirm that you believe it.
1204
01:00:30,917 --> 01:00:32,875
So they're a control mechanism.
1205
01:00:34,833 --> 01:00:36,833
[Music swells]
1206
01:00:37,208 --> 01:00:39,625
[Elizabeth] So a woman is accused
of being a witch.
1207
01:00:40,250 --> 01:00:41,500
What happens next?
1208
01:00:41,667 --> 01:00:44,458
They would have been questioned
by the magistrate
1209
01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:46,851
and then they would be put in a cart
1210
01:00:46,875 --> 01:00:48,667
and taken off to the nearest prison
1211
01:00:48,875 --> 01:00:50,559
and then they would have waited there
1212
01:00:50,583 --> 01:00:52,833
in the jail conditions,
which were horrible,
1213
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,268
until the criminal court was convened.
1214
01:00:56,292 --> 01:00:58,292
And that could be months.
1215
01:00:58,542 --> 01:01:00,601
[Hypnotic, percussive music resumes]
1216
01:01:00,625 --> 01:01:04,643
And then they'd be brought into the court
in a public setting
1217
01:01:04,667 --> 01:01:09,625
where everybody was angry and chatting
and there's a kind of whirl of activity.
1218
01:01:11,042 --> 01:01:13,143
Questioned by the judge, very briefly
1219
01:01:13,167 --> 01:01:15,917
asked to say something
about their situation.
1220
01:01:17,792 --> 01:01:19,958
I know nothing of witchcraft.
1221
01:01:20,167 --> 01:01:21,559
Then judged by the jury.
1222
01:01:21,583 --> 01:01:24,458
Most trials took about ten minutes,
if that.
1223
01:01:25,167 --> 01:01:26,893
Which is astonishing, isn't it?
1224
01:01:26,917 --> 01:01:29,208
You have absolutely no time to think.
1225
01:01:29,375 --> 01:01:30,893
And then you're judged
1226
01:01:30,917 --> 01:01:33,167
and then you're taken away
and you could be hanged.
1227
01:01:33,542 --> 01:01:35,792
[Elizabeth] And how did they torture
the women?
1228
01:01:35,958 --> 01:01:38,018
- [Music concludes]
- Torture was officially banned
1229
01:01:38,042 --> 01:01:41,018
against witches
or anybody else in England.
1230
01:01:41,042 --> 01:01:43,917
It was reserved for state crimes,
things like treason.
1231
01:01:44,125 --> 01:01:48,375
[Elizabeth] So those women,
whose testimonies I showed you,
1232
01:01:48,875 --> 01:01:50,917
they confessed without torture?
1233
01:01:51,292 --> 01:01:56,792
Yes, they do seem
to have confessed voluntarily.
1234
01:01:57,073 --> 01:02:00,101
And nobody's ever really
been able to explain that.
1235
01:02:00,125 --> 01:02:02,653
[Elizabeth] And would they have known
what would happen to them
1236
01:02:03,042 --> 01:02:04,143
if they confessed?
1237
01:02:04,167 --> 01:02:06,417
Would they have known
that they would die?
1238
01:02:06,833 --> 01:02:10,083
Yes, they would have seen it
in their communities.
1239
01:02:10,417 --> 01:02:12,351
So they did know.
1240
01:02:12,375 --> 01:02:15,021
I think there's good evidence
that they had quite a lot
1241
01:02:15,045 --> 01:02:17,309
of experience of what happened to witches.
1242
01:02:17,333 --> 01:02:19,333
Particularly when you get on to, say
1243
01:02:19,667 --> 01:02:22,348
the Matthew Hopkins trials in the 1640s,
you know,
1244
01:02:22,372 --> 01:02:25,542
by then witchcraft has been illegal
for 80 years.
1245
01:02:25,667 --> 01:02:28,375
There's 80 years of people
being hanged for this crime.
1246
01:02:28,833 --> 01:02:31,167
But nevertheless,
people carry on confessing,
1247
01:02:31,292 --> 01:02:34,143
which is very difficult
to explain unless you think there
1248
01:02:34,167 --> 01:02:35,500
are other factors involved.
1249
01:02:35,917 --> 01:02:39,250
One thing I would say from these questions
though is you know what I just read?
1250
01:02:39,417 --> 01:02:44,101
Like, the way I felt
if there wasn't something
1251
01:02:44,125 --> 01:02:46,934
where perinatal mental health was a thing
that I knew about
1252
01:02:46,958 --> 01:02:50,393
and I was in a Mother and Baby Unit--
I, I would have confessed to being a witch
1253
01:02:50,417 --> 01:02:54,434
if that was the social narrative that if
you think X, Y, and Z, you're a witch
1254
01:02:54,458 --> 01:02:56,458
I absolutely, I'd have confessed.
1255
01:02:57,250 --> 01:02:59,770
- I would have done it. Oh, sorry.
- [Elizabeth] That's alright.
1256
01:03:00,125 --> 01:03:02,958
Um, because you feel so...
1257
01:03:03,750 --> 01:03:05,292
You're desperate for an explanation.
1258
01:03:05,542 --> 01:03:07,625
I think that I would have gone for that.
1259
01:03:08,167 --> 01:03:11,851
[Elizabeth] Yeah. And would you have
also been happy dying as well?
1260
01:03:11,875 --> 01:03:13,121
Yeah.
1261
01:03:13,642 --> 01:03:14,894
Yeah.
1262
01:03:16,458 --> 01:03:19,726
I can fully relate
to that feeling of choosing
1263
01:03:19,750 --> 01:03:23,500
to be hanged versus carrying on
in a really terrible reality.
1264
01:03:23,792 --> 01:03:25,226
It was a form of torture.
1265
01:03:25,250 --> 01:03:27,625
To be a prisoner
in your mind is a form of torture.
1266
01:03:28,167 --> 01:03:29,750
It was not a way to live.
1267
01:03:30,833 --> 01:03:33,042
[Elizabeth] I would have
voluntarily confessed too.
1268
01:03:33,167 --> 01:03:35,000
[Soft, pensive music]
1269
01:03:35,125 --> 01:03:37,417
But it has been 400 years.
1270
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,167
Why do women still feel like this?
1271
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,250
Why are suicide rates increasing?
1272
01:03:43,458 --> 01:03:45,768
Why is there still so little awareness
1273
01:03:45,792 --> 01:03:48,292
knowledge, and support
around these illnesses?
1274
01:03:48,833 --> 01:03:50,833
If I'd been pregnant in that time
1275
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:52,250
who would have treated me?
1276
01:03:52,542 --> 01:03:54,280
[Marion] You'd have gone
to your neighbour
1277
01:03:54,304 --> 01:03:56,512
because you knew
they'd had children before
1278
01:03:56,792 --> 01:03:58,059
and you'd say to them
1279
01:03:58,083 --> 01:04:01,500
"Could you maybe come
and look after me during my pregnancy?"
1280
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:05,601
And then you would say to them,
"Can you act as a midwife as well?"
1281
01:04:05,625 --> 01:04:08,976
But basically it would be a neighbour,
it would be an elderly female neighbour
1282
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:10,792
who had done all of this before.
1283
01:04:11,125 --> 01:04:13,125
[Elizabeth] Women used to be
the main healers.
1284
01:04:13,375 --> 01:04:16,542
We were doctors without degrees,
learning anecdotally
1285
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:19,500
passing on our knowledge
to the next generation.
1286
01:04:21,208 --> 01:04:25,792
We were the first pharmacists
abortionists, nurses and counsellors.
1287
01:04:26,125 --> 01:04:28,476
We were midwives travelling
from home to home
1288
01:04:28,500 --> 01:04:29,875
and village to village.
1289
01:04:30,250 --> 01:04:33,042
Medicine is part of women's
heritage and history.
1290
01:04:33,708 --> 01:04:35,458
It was once our birthright
1291
01:04:36,292 --> 01:04:38,042
but then everything changed.
1292
01:04:39,208 --> 01:04:41,268
[Music concludes]
1293
01:04:41,292 --> 01:04:46,238
Did you know the entire witchcraft scare,
as far back as the 14th century,
1294
01:04:46,262 --> 01:04:48,083
was started by the medical profession?
1295
01:04:49,167 --> 01:04:50,277
That's right.
1296
01:04:50,510 --> 01:04:52,218
They were trying to get midwives out of
1297
01:04:52,333 --> 01:04:54,458
the child birthing business.
1298
01:04:54,750 --> 01:04:56,059
That's what they were.
1299
01:04:56,083 --> 01:04:58,958
Most of the women that they burned
midwives.
1300
01:04:59,708 --> 01:05:00,708
Is that true?
1301
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:03,333
You better believe it.
1302
01:05:03,833 --> 01:05:08,125
Just another example of
male dominated professional society
1303
01:05:08,667 --> 01:05:12,292
exploiting females
for their own selfish purposes.
1304
01:05:13,625 --> 01:05:15,958
Men are such cocksuckers, aren't they?
1305
01:05:16,556 --> 01:05:17,775
[She sighs]
1306
01:05:19,042 --> 01:05:20,708
[Elizabeth] He's almost right.
1307
01:05:21,250 --> 01:05:22,958
But it wasn't just midwives.
1308
01:05:23,292 --> 01:05:26,042
It was any women
who treated their neighbours
1309
01:05:26,417 --> 01:05:27,917
who made medicines
1310
01:05:29,125 --> 01:05:30,625
who cared for others.
1311
01:05:32,110 --> 01:05:34,604
[Marion] One of the arguments
that's been put forward is that
1312
01:05:34,629 --> 01:05:38,421
witchcraft trials were
about driving out female healers.
1313
01:05:38,542 --> 01:05:41,083
While I don't think
that was a deliberate strategy
1314
01:05:41,292 --> 01:05:44,292
it does seem to me
to be an effect of what happens
1315
01:05:44,583 --> 01:05:46,250
if you're constantly
1316
01:05:46,375 --> 01:05:49,809
attacking and demonising people who say
1317
01:05:49,833 --> 01:05:52,476
they have healing skills
and dragging them away
1318
01:05:52,500 --> 01:05:55,042
and they're being executed as witches
1319
01:05:55,333 --> 01:05:57,393
it seems to me
that does leave a kind of gap
1320
01:05:57,417 --> 01:05:59,125
in the healing market.
1321
01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:03,500
And that was the gap
into which male medical workers stepped.
1322
01:06:06,417 --> 01:06:09,434
[Elizabeth] But the male doctors
of this period were using very little
1323
01:06:09,458 --> 01:06:12,000
of what we would recognise
today as science.
1324
01:06:12,750 --> 01:06:15,125
During training,
they rarely saw any patients
1325
01:06:15,375 --> 01:06:18,309
and no experimentation
of any kind was taught.
1326
01:06:18,333 --> 01:06:19,393
[Blood squelches]
1327
01:06:19,417 --> 01:06:21,875
Whereas the wise women, the witches,
1328
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,875
were working in the field treating people,
1329
01:06:25,083 --> 01:06:29,667
developing an understanding
of bones and muscles, herbs and drugs.
1330
01:06:30,708 --> 01:06:33,101
When I became ill,
my only course of action
1331
01:06:33,125 --> 01:06:35,375
was to keep returning
to the emergency room
1332
01:06:35,776 --> 01:06:38,442
desperate for the help I wasn't receiving.
1333
01:06:39,042 --> 01:06:41,934
I wish that instead
I could have gone to the home
1334
01:06:41,958 --> 01:06:44,917
of the local witch
who had seen all of this before.
1335
01:06:45,333 --> 01:06:47,684
But those women were stolen from us
1336
01:06:47,708 --> 01:06:49,708
[Heavy drum beats thud]
1337
01:06:53,250 --> 01:06:54,875
taken from their homes.
1338
01:06:55,542 --> 01:06:57,542
[Crowd chatter]
1339
01:07:01,083 --> 01:07:02,750
Bring out Elizabeth Selwyn.
1340
01:07:02,917 --> 01:07:06,375
[Elizabeth] They were vilified,
derided, called crones and hags.
1341
01:07:07,083 --> 01:07:08,458
Witch!
1342
01:07:09,708 --> 01:07:13,000
Condemned for all eternity
to be dismissed as old wives
1343
01:07:13,333 --> 01:07:15,000
or spectres of doom.
1344
01:07:15,833 --> 01:07:17,476
To scare little children,
1345
01:07:17,500 --> 01:07:21,333
and warn women to never grow old,
to never behave badly.
1346
01:07:22,621 --> 01:07:24,559
[Roaring thunder]
1347
01:07:24,750 --> 01:07:25,934
Burn the witch!
1348
01:07:25,958 --> 01:07:27,958
[Crowd shouts angrily]
1349
01:07:28,167 --> 01:07:30,559
[Elizabeth] And the eradication
of their history as healers
1350
01:07:30,583 --> 01:07:31,958
still affects medicine.
1351
01:07:32,417 --> 01:07:36,917
Gender bias in medical knowledge
research and practice is deeply ingrained.
1352
01:07:37,833 --> 01:07:41,143
A study from 2022 showed
that women are often not taken
1353
01:07:41,167 --> 01:07:44,250
seriously, ignored, or deemed "emotional"
1354
01:07:44,417 --> 01:07:46,833
when it comes to their illnesses and pain.
1355
01:07:47,389 --> 01:07:49,837
An entirely natural expansion
of the pelvis.
1356
01:07:49,861 --> 01:07:51,601
You can fight it with ordinary aspirin.
1357
01:07:51,625 --> 01:07:54,000
I was afraid it might be
an ectopic pregnancy.
1358
01:07:54,542 --> 01:07:55,625
Ectopic?
1359
01:07:55,917 --> 01:07:58,059
I thought you weren't going
to read books, Rosemary.
1360
01:07:58,083 --> 01:07:59,768
It was staring at me in the drugstore.
1361
01:07:59,792 --> 01:08:01,101
And all it did was worry you.
1362
01:08:01,125 --> 01:08:03,101
Will you go home
and throw it away, please?
1363
01:08:03,132 --> 01:08:05,590
-
I will, I promise.
-
The pain will be gone in two days.
1364
01:08:06,625 --> 01:08:08,250
Ectopic pregnancy.
1365
01:08:08,708 --> 01:08:11,851
So I have a good friend,
Rageshri Dhairyawan,
1366
01:08:11,875 --> 01:08:13,875
who writes a lot about this.
1367
01:08:14,167 --> 01:08:16,625
We call it "testimonial injustice."
1368
01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:21,917
And that's when your truth
is not taken seriously.
1369
01:08:22,250 --> 01:08:26,917
You're not seen as
a reliable narrator of your own story.
1370
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:31,059
And it classically happens to women,
and certainly women
1371
01:08:31,083 --> 01:08:36,417
who are racially minoritised are at
the greatest risk of not being believed.
1372
01:08:36,659 --> 01:08:40,292
It's right across the board.
So if you think about endometriosis
1373
01:08:40,458 --> 01:08:42,393
it's on average eight years
1374
01:08:42,417 --> 01:08:45,375
for a woman to be diagnosed
with endometriosis.
1375
01:08:45,792 --> 01:08:48,143
And during that time
she's likely to have sought help
1376
01:08:48,167 --> 01:08:49,893
again and again and again
1377
01:08:49,917 --> 01:08:53,333
and her symptoms
would have been dismissed.
1378
01:08:54,542 --> 01:08:55,958
Pain relief.
1379
01:08:56,125 --> 01:08:59,268
We know that Black women
are much less likely
1380
01:08:59,292 --> 01:09:03,184
to be given adequate analgesia
after medical procedures
1381
01:09:03,208 --> 01:09:07,333
because of the perception
that they have a higher pain threshold.
1382
01:09:07,667 --> 01:09:11,292
Me going in and saying numerous times,
1383
01:09:11,750 --> 01:09:13,917
"I'm struggling, I'm depressed
1384
01:09:14,375 --> 01:09:16,292
"I'm clinical and I'm telling you
1385
01:09:16,792 --> 01:09:18,792
"with my experience as a doctor
1386
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:22,518
"that I've got severe postnatal
depression and anxiety
1387
01:09:22,542 --> 01:09:23,768
"and I need help."
1388
01:09:23,792 --> 01:09:25,792
For that to just be minimised.
1389
01:09:26,042 --> 01:09:28,059
We have known for years
1390
01:09:28,083 --> 01:09:32,750
that Black and Asian women
are more likely to die in childbirth
1391
01:09:33,417 --> 01:09:36,667
and we've done nothing about
it until relatively recently.
1392
01:09:36,792 --> 01:09:38,833
We still don't do enough about it.
1393
01:09:38,958 --> 01:09:42,101
That's a deliberate thing,
because we could solve that.
1394
01:09:42,125 --> 01:09:44,472
We managed to raise funds
1395
01:09:44,496 --> 01:09:49,750
to be able to find a vaccine
against COVID within 12 months.
1396
01:09:50,375 --> 01:09:54,851
So when there is political will
to address a situation, we address it.
1397
01:09:54,875 --> 01:09:57,833
There has been no political will
to address
1398
01:09:58,164 --> 01:10:00,734
ethnic disparities in health.
1399
01:10:01,917 --> 01:10:05,042
So my son arrived very early
1400
01:10:05,833 --> 01:10:08,167
and I also had an infection
1401
01:10:08,667 --> 01:10:11,976
but I was told, "Don't worry,"
and it would all go away.
1402
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:13,833
But actually it didn't go away.
1403
01:10:14,125 --> 01:10:18,667
I, gradually, over the next 48 hours,
became more and more delirious.
1404
01:10:19,375 --> 01:10:24,583
I remember walking through the kitchen
and seeing loads of shiny knives
1405
01:10:25,125 --> 01:10:28,601
and having a thought back to Daksha Emson
1406
01:10:28,625 --> 01:10:32,542
thinking, "God, is that
what went through Daksha's mind?."
1407
01:10:33,065 --> 01:10:36,226
And I immediately was
so terrified by that thought.
1408
01:10:36,250 --> 01:10:37,708
So terrified.
1409
01:10:37,875 --> 01:10:40,893
Even though I wasn't in a dark space
at that point.
1410
01:10:40,917 --> 01:10:43,125
But I remember being so terrified
1411
01:10:43,500 --> 01:10:46,500
that I ran out of my kitchen
as quickly as I could.
1412
01:10:46,750 --> 01:10:50,000
I knew something was wrong with me,
but I didn't quite know what it was.
1413
01:10:50,468 --> 01:10:51,888
And then eventually,
1414
01:10:52,500 --> 01:10:53,584
I collapsed.
1415
01:10:53,608 --> 01:10:55,046
[Subtle unsettling hum]
1416
01:10:55,070 --> 01:10:57,143
[Elizabeth] At the hospital,
Trudi struggled to make
1417
01:10:57,167 --> 01:11:00,167
the other doctors understand
what was happening to her.
1418
01:11:00,833 --> 01:11:03,583
[Trudi] Because I said,
"You know, I'm a perinatal psychiatrist."
1419
01:11:04,042 --> 01:11:08,792
They didn't believe me. They thought
I was unwell, so they didn't believe me.
1420
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:13,405
And then my husband had to say to them,
"No, it's true. No, she really is.
1421
01:11:13,429 --> 01:11:16,283
"She really is a perinatal psychiatrist.
That is exactly what she does."
1422
01:11:16,307 --> 01:11:19,416
[Elizabeth] Were you able to look
at yourself from the outside at any point?
1423
01:11:19,542 --> 01:11:20,542
Constantly.
1424
01:11:21,250 --> 01:11:22,351
Yeah... yeah.
1425
01:11:22,375 --> 01:11:24,434
In a way, I was being my own psychiatrist
1426
01:11:24,458 --> 01:11:25,476
[Trudi laughs]
1427
01:11:25,500 --> 01:11:29,125
looking at what all the causes might be
and what all the treatments might be.
1428
01:11:29,542 --> 01:11:32,476
But I could also see it
from all the thousands
1429
01:11:32,500 --> 01:11:36,042
of counts of stories
I've had from women over time.
1430
01:11:36,239 --> 01:11:38,830
[Elizabeth] And have you ever talked about
this in public before?
1431
01:11:38,854 --> 01:11:40,401
- No.
- [Hum stops]
1432
01:11:41,792 --> 01:11:46,167
I've never, ever, ever spoken about
this publicly before. No.
1433
01:11:46,583 --> 01:11:48,083
[Elizabeth] Why haven't you?
1434
01:11:52,667 --> 01:11:54,875
I think you have to be ready to tell
1435
01:11:55,958 --> 01:11:59,043
your own story, actually,
at the right time...
1436
01:12:01,125 --> 01:12:02,875
to the right people.
1437
01:12:03,044 --> 01:12:05,336
Even being a perinatal psychiatrist
1438
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:10,218
it took me years to accept that
it had also been a full blown psychosis
1439
01:12:11,542 --> 01:12:13,667
or that it had dipped into a psychosis.
1440
01:12:14,612 --> 01:12:16,000
And that's stigma.
1441
01:12:18,917 --> 01:12:22,088
[Shema] I don't think I've been open
at work about the severity
1442
01:12:22,112 --> 01:12:24,112
of my mental health issues.
1443
01:12:24,875 --> 01:12:27,583
In fact, I don't think
anyone at work knows.
1444
01:12:27,833 --> 01:12:30,042
My entire career
1445
01:12:30,208 --> 01:12:34,542
has been focused on challenging stigma
1446
01:12:34,917 --> 01:12:37,125
around HIV in particular.
1447
01:12:38,375 --> 01:12:40,542
But then when it comes to mental health,
1448
01:12:41,292 --> 01:12:46,476
I still feel there's still an element
of shame within me about that.
1449
01:12:46,500 --> 01:12:48,208
Like somehow I failed.
1450
01:12:48,750 --> 01:12:49,958
My brain
1451
01:12:50,250 --> 01:12:53,351
or my mind,
wasn't strong enough to cope with this.
1452
01:12:53,375 --> 01:12:54,559
So this is my fault.
1453
01:12:54,583 --> 01:12:55,684
[Soft, pensive music]
1454
01:12:55,708 --> 01:12:57,601
[Elizabeth] Executing women as witches
1455
01:12:57,625 --> 01:12:59,893
was a way
of cleansing communities of women
1456
01:12:59,917 --> 01:13:01,292
who were mentally unwell
1457
01:13:01,500 --> 01:13:02,792
who didn't fit in
1458
01:13:03,042 --> 01:13:05,167
or who knew too much
and had too much power.
1459
01:13:05,854 --> 01:13:08,687
Their murders still reverberate
throughout our society.
1460
01:13:09,125 --> 01:13:10,125
Witch.
1461
01:13:10,250 --> 01:13:12,101
[Elizabeth] Women are scared
of being judged,
1462
01:13:12,125 --> 01:13:14,294
scared to talk about our dark thoughts,
1463
01:13:14,417 --> 01:13:17,000
our rage, our madness.
1464
01:13:17,250 --> 01:13:20,101
[Marion] I think the witch trials
do leave a tremendous legacy
1465
01:13:20,125 --> 01:13:23,893
of guilt and shame and silence.
1466
01:13:23,917 --> 01:13:25,601
The silencing of women's voices,
1467
01:13:25,625 --> 01:13:27,684
the silencing of women's experiences.
1468
01:13:27,708 --> 01:13:29,809
It may all seem a very long time ago
1469
01:13:29,833 --> 01:13:31,643
- [Music continues]
- but it is so persistent.
1470
01:13:31,667 --> 01:13:35,333
I've looked back at witch trials
over seven centuries.
1471
01:13:35,875 --> 01:13:38,601
And I can't help thinking
that we see the same thing
1472
01:13:38,625 --> 01:13:40,375
again and again and again.
1473
01:13:41,083 --> 01:13:44,042
And as a female historian
that really resonates with me.
1474
01:13:44,458 --> 01:13:49,059
I feel those emotions the same
as those women did in history.
1475
01:13:49,083 --> 01:13:50,809
And I think that's really powerful.
1476
01:13:50,833 --> 01:13:52,875
I think we should be telling this story.
1477
01:13:53,125 --> 01:13:56,333
The witch trials leave behind them
this tremendous legacy
1478
01:13:56,875 --> 01:13:59,393
of women feeling
they can't talk about things,
1479
01:13:59,417 --> 01:14:02,292
that happen to them,
of women feeling things are their fault,
1480
01:14:02,875 --> 01:14:04,809
of women feeling disempowered,
1481
01:14:04,833 --> 01:14:08,250
and that they are the enemy
somehow in society.
1482
01:14:08,513 --> 01:14:10,099
[Music continues]
1483
01:14:10,292 --> 01:14:12,917
The whole thing is just this enormous
1484
01:14:13,625 --> 01:14:15,917
ball of guilt and shame and misery
1485
01:14:16,125 --> 01:14:18,434
and difficulty and horror and anxiety,
isn't it?
1486
01:14:18,458 --> 01:14:19,875
"Oh, God, I'm wrong."
1487
01:14:20,375 --> 01:14:21,542
It's that, isn't it?
1488
01:14:21,792 --> 01:14:23,000
We all feel it.
1489
01:14:23,375 --> 01:14:24,476
- [Elizabeth] Hm.
- Yeah.
1490
01:14:24,500 --> 01:14:26,962
[Music builds]
1491
01:14:31,167 --> 01:14:33,438
[Ethereal vocal resonance]
1492
01:14:35,625 --> 01:14:37,684
[Resonance swells, subsides]
1493
01:14:37,708 --> 01:14:40,726
[Elizabeth] After a month on the ward
I gradually, magically,
1494
01:14:40,750 --> 01:14:42,167
did start to get better.
1495
01:14:43,129 --> 01:14:45,421
I spent more time with Emily and Jude
1496
01:14:45,625 --> 01:14:48,833
finding sisterhood and understanding
amidst the darkness.
1497
01:14:49,083 --> 01:14:50,667
We ate all our meals together.
1498
01:14:50,792 --> 01:14:53,875
We would sit at the doorways
to each other's room, chatting.
1499
01:14:54,333 --> 01:14:56,393
Before lights out in the evening
1500
01:14:56,417 --> 01:14:59,125
we'd slump on these sofas and
1501
01:14:59,833 --> 01:15:01,750
compare symptoms.
1502
01:15:02,292 --> 01:15:06,292
We became like a strange sort of family,
a coven.
1503
01:15:07,625 --> 01:15:09,958
Holding each other
when it all got too much.
1504
01:15:10,612 --> 01:15:14,652
My son and the other babies
became part of our coven too.
1505
01:15:15,125 --> 01:15:17,583
I spent my days just holding him.
1506
01:15:18,083 --> 01:15:21,208
And gradually I started taking him
out of the ward on my own.
1507
01:15:22,083 --> 01:15:23,917
I was no longer scared of him.
1508
01:15:24,292 --> 01:15:26,875
I began to understand him
and what he needed.
1509
01:15:29,417 --> 01:15:32,958
Then one day I was finally able
to close the door to my room
1510
01:15:33,208 --> 01:15:35,167
so that he and I were alone together.
1511
01:15:36,125 --> 01:15:38,208
I was so relieved that I could do it
1512
01:15:38,583 --> 01:15:40,042
that he was finally safe.
1513
01:15:40,958 --> 01:15:42,292
I was finally safe.
1514
01:15:42,583 --> 01:15:43,958
[Music concludes]
1515
01:15:45,208 --> 01:15:48,875
Being released from a psychiatric ward
is as weird as going into one.
1516
01:15:49,667 --> 01:15:52,500
They don't wait until you're 100% better.
1517
01:15:53,833 --> 01:15:56,143
Will you ever be 100% better?
Will any of us?
1518
01:15:56,167 --> 01:15:58,792
Anyway, they don't wait
until you are 100% better.
1519
01:15:59,458 --> 01:16:01,297
But instead they,
1520
01:16:01,653 --> 01:16:04,703
they wait until they know
that you can cope with being at home.
1521
01:16:05,471 --> 01:16:07,054
And it's very gradual.
1522
01:16:07,208 --> 01:16:09,875
So I started going home for the afternoon.
1523
01:16:10,583 --> 01:16:13,417
Uh, and then I would go home
for the whole day.
1524
01:16:13,604 --> 01:16:15,270
And then overnight.
1525
01:16:15,542 --> 01:16:16,958
After one of my overnights
1526
01:16:17,208 --> 01:16:19,601
Emily told me that she'd
heard a nurse saying
1527
01:16:19,625 --> 01:16:22,500
that they thought I would
be going home for good soon.
1528
01:16:24,167 --> 01:16:26,167
And I was really scared
1529
01:16:26,667 --> 01:16:29,792
because I didn't think I was ready.
1530
01:16:30,250 --> 01:16:34,018
The staff told me
to try going home for the weekend.
1531
01:16:34,042 --> 01:16:35,542
Oh fine, thanks.
1532
01:16:36,042 --> 01:16:37,512
Right over there.
1533
01:16:38,625 --> 01:16:40,738
My husband Jeremy came and picked us up
1534
01:16:41,417 --> 01:16:45,125
and he'd bought all my favourite food
1535
01:16:46,208 --> 01:16:50,458
and he was just trying so hard
to make it really nice and comfortable.
1536
01:16:50,875 --> 01:16:53,500
And I was really touched.
But I remember also...
1537
01:16:54,333 --> 01:16:57,059
feeling really scared,
that I wouldn't be able to do it
1538
01:16:57,083 --> 01:17:01,500
that I wouldn't be able to cope
and that I would let him down.
1539
01:17:02,750 --> 01:17:04,715
But then the next morning, I woke up
1540
01:17:04,739 --> 01:17:06,143
[Delicate, emotive music]
1541
01:17:06,167 --> 01:17:08,167
and everything was okay.
1542
01:17:11,667 --> 01:17:14,917
And I just remember crying with relief
1543
01:17:16,625 --> 01:17:18,458
because I knew that whatever happened
1544
01:17:19,042 --> 01:17:20,574
we'd got through this.
1545
01:17:21,500 --> 01:17:24,333
The darkness had lifted.
1546
01:17:24,708 --> 01:17:27,726
I think the time
when we couldn't stop laughing
1547
01:17:27,750 --> 01:17:30,333
that first time when we laughed like,
1548
01:17:30,750 --> 01:17:33,792
a proper belly laugh, crying laughing.
1549
01:17:33,958 --> 01:17:37,684
I was like, "Oh, I can feel, feel again.
1550
01:17:37,708 --> 01:17:40,708
"I don't feel like
I'm behind a glass wall."
1551
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,250
Just getting a hug from another woman,
1552
01:17:45,750 --> 01:17:47,167
like a long hug.
1553
01:17:48,958 --> 01:17:51,535
Like you're a kid,
like you're a little girl.
1554
01:17:53,542 --> 01:17:55,375
Just having someone hug you and be like
1555
01:17:55,708 --> 01:17:57,121
"You're gonna be okay.
1556
01:17:57,402 --> 01:17:59,893
"You're gonna get through this,
and you're gonna be okay."
1557
01:17:59,917 --> 01:18:01,292
And just like, hold you.
1558
01:18:01,417 --> 01:18:04,684
Because you're doing all the holding
when you become a mother.
1559
01:18:04,708 --> 01:18:06,625
You're doing so much holding.
1560
01:18:07,750 --> 01:18:10,167
Having someone hold you and just...
1561
01:18:11,292 --> 01:18:13,375
I'm so lucky to have my mum
1562
01:18:14,042 --> 01:18:15,479
just do that for me.
1563
01:18:17,914 --> 01:18:20,079
[Elizabeth] In what ways
do you feel like your illness,
1564
01:18:20,103 --> 01:18:21,936
and that experience changed you?
1565
01:18:23,708 --> 01:18:26,792
It was absolutely my lowest I've ever been
and I've had some lows.
1566
01:18:27,125 --> 01:18:30,750
It's absolutely the lowest I've ever been
and I kind of climbed back from it.
1567
01:18:30,875 --> 01:18:34,101
So in a way I do feel
that nothing we face as a family
1568
01:18:34,125 --> 01:18:36,578
is probably ever going to be
as bad as what we went through.
1569
01:18:36,750 --> 01:18:39,292
Yeah, I think I am more grateful now,
1570
01:18:39,667 --> 01:18:45,018
for small things, and for my family,
and for moments.
1571
01:18:45,042 --> 01:18:47,833
And kind of, I feel so lucky
1572
01:18:48,042 --> 01:18:51,351
to have had the help
and to have got better
1573
01:18:51,375 --> 01:18:54,875
and had some amazing times with my family.
1574
01:18:56,583 --> 01:18:57,949
With my family.
1575
01:19:02,667 --> 01:19:04,917
Before I had kids, I always used to think
1576
01:19:05,250 --> 01:19:06,809
"Why would you have mum friends?
1577
01:19:06,833 --> 01:19:10,309
"I won't have mum friends.
I'll just keep my own friends.
1578
01:19:10,333 --> 01:19:13,050
"I don't need new friends,
oh, it'll be so boring."
1579
01:19:14,167 --> 01:19:17,250
And then I had children
1580
01:19:17,625 --> 01:19:18,833
and then I had a breakdown
1581
01:19:19,667 --> 01:19:22,333
and I really, really needed
that community.
1582
01:19:22,542 --> 01:19:24,917
I needed to be wrapped up
1583
01:19:25,167 --> 01:19:28,583
in the love and the care of other women.
1584
01:19:28,917 --> 01:19:31,059
It does feel like a coven, doesn't it?
1585
01:19:31,083 --> 01:19:35,268
This sort of collective wisdom,
knowledge, experience
1586
01:19:35,292 --> 01:19:37,500
sharing, support.
1587
01:19:38,250 --> 01:19:42,143
[Elizabeth] What would you say
to a woman who's watching this
1588
01:19:42,167 --> 01:19:46,292
who is maybe going through
a perinatal mental health crisis?
1589
01:19:46,875 --> 01:19:48,417
What advice would you give her?
1590
01:19:48,750 --> 01:19:52,542
Never, ever, ever struggle in silence.
1591
01:19:53,917 --> 01:19:56,167
There is always help for
1592
01:19:56,750 --> 01:20:00,226
every type of
perinatal mental health crisis
1593
01:20:00,250 --> 01:20:02,042
or psychological crisis.
1594
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:05,208
Tell everybody around you.
1595
01:20:05,833 --> 01:20:08,958
Tell your partner, tell your family,
tell your friends.
1596
01:20:09,792 --> 01:20:12,042
But most importantly,
go and get professional help.
1597
01:20:12,458 --> 01:20:14,542
And no one's going to
take your baby away.
1598
01:20:14,792 --> 01:20:16,792
[Gloomy drone-like music]
1599
01:20:17,125 --> 01:20:19,184
[Elizabeth] I always wanted
to be a witch.
1600
01:20:19,208 --> 01:20:21,018
[Eerie vocal resonance]
1601
01:20:21,042 --> 01:20:23,250
- A good witch.
- [Resonance swells, subsides]
1602
01:20:25,542 --> 01:20:28,208
One who only used her power gently.
1603
01:20:28,792 --> 01:20:30,500
[Doorbell rings]
1604
01:20:30,625 --> 01:20:33,078
[Gloomy music continues,
Vocal resonance]
1605
01:20:36,375 --> 01:20:38,312
[Metallic ding]
1606
01:20:39,917 --> 01:20:42,917
But now I know
that good witches are prisoners, too.
1607
01:20:43,917 --> 01:20:45,583
They have to suppress their power.
1608
01:20:45,708 --> 01:20:47,708
You know I lighted it with a match, Wally.
1609
01:20:48,417 --> 01:20:51,750
From now on, I'm going to be
just a simple, helpful wife.
1610
01:20:52,125 --> 01:20:53,672
[Elizabeth] Or give it up.
1611
01:20:54,292 --> 01:20:55,833
[Music continues]]
1612
01:20:56,125 --> 01:20:58,333
They must stay young and beautiful.
1613
01:21:00,000 --> 01:21:02,375
They cannot stray from the path.
1614
01:21:04,292 --> 01:21:06,292
[Gloomy chimes]
1615
01:21:06,500 --> 01:21:09,500
I see now that their magic is meaningless.
1616
01:21:10,167 --> 01:21:11,726
Nothing more than a trick.
1617
01:21:11,750 --> 01:21:13,375
[Music halts]
1618
01:21:13,958 --> 01:21:15,708
[Footsteps approach]
1619
01:21:16,417 --> 01:21:17,625
Thank you.
1620
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:20,625
[Elizabeth] I would much rather
be a bad witch.
1621
01:21:22,792 --> 01:21:24,333
[Music resumes]
1622
01:21:24,667 --> 01:21:26,667
My mental health is now stable
1623
01:21:27,208 --> 01:21:29,958
although I have been told
I should probably stay on medication
1624
01:21:30,125 --> 01:21:31,542
for the rest of my life.
1625
01:21:32,500 --> 01:21:34,542
I see the world in a different way now.
1626
01:21:35,375 --> 01:21:37,375
How fragile our minds are.
1627
01:21:37,667 --> 01:21:40,208
How easily our reality can be shattered.
1628
01:21:41,125 --> 01:21:44,125
I know now that not everything
is as it seems.
1629
01:21:48,042 --> 01:21:50,332
[Music fades to silence]
1630
01:21:56,667 --> 01:21:57,726
[Music resumes]
1631
01:21:57,750 --> 01:22:00,434
I've thought a lot about
how to talk to my son
1632
01:22:00,458 --> 01:22:02,083
about what happened to us.
1633
01:22:05,125 --> 01:22:07,750
About how he was pulled into my darkness
1634
01:22:08,208 --> 01:22:09,625
my madness,
1635
01:22:09,917 --> 01:22:11,333
my horror.
1636
01:22:13,792 --> 01:22:16,000
I don't want him to feel bad about that.
1637
01:22:18,667 --> 01:22:20,375
My son is two and a half now
1638
01:22:20,542 --> 01:22:23,167
and I'm completely obsessed with him.
1639
01:22:24,250 --> 01:22:26,251
He's my favourite person
in the whole world.
1640
01:22:26,275 --> 01:22:27,947
[Music concludes]
1641
01:22:27,971 --> 01:22:32,387
And while there are a lot of people
to thank for my recovery.
1642
01:22:34,336 --> 01:22:36,753
It was my son who saved my life.
1643
01:22:40,208 --> 01:22:42,768
- [Soft, emotive music]
- He gave me love
1644
01:22:42,792 --> 01:22:45,375
and focus, and a reason to keep going.
1645
01:22:46,375 --> 01:22:49,000
And he was there with me
every day on the ward.
1646
01:22:53,917 --> 01:22:57,917
I now treasure that one-on-one time
we had together.
1647
01:22:58,542 --> 01:23:00,101
[Music continues]
1648
01:23:00,125 --> 01:23:04,958
In your life, you too, will find
that your sense of reality shifts.
1649
01:23:06,005 --> 01:23:08,934
You will be pulled into worlds
that are so horrible
1650
01:23:08,958 --> 01:23:11,208
you cannot even begin to process them.
1651
01:23:12,281 --> 01:23:14,364
Rooms that make your knees weak.
1652
01:23:24,159 --> 01:23:26,034
[Music continues]
1653
01:23:26,625 --> 01:23:29,042
Madness and darkness,
1654
01:23:29,625 --> 01:23:31,250
horror and pain,
1655
01:23:32,083 --> 01:23:33,708
are always here waiting.
1656
01:23:34,250 --> 01:23:35,750
They will come for us all.
1657
01:23:37,417 --> 01:23:38,833
But then so will joy,
1658
01:23:39,167 --> 01:23:40,208
beauty,
1659
01:23:40,542 --> 01:23:41,542
love,
1660
01:23:42,083 --> 01:23:43,125
and magic.
1661
01:23:44,042 --> 01:23:46,208
Every woman is a witch
1662
01:23:46,417 --> 01:23:48,750
and every witch needs a coven.
1663
01:23:50,083 --> 01:23:51,708
Now, what do you want to ask me?
1664
01:23:55,417 --> 01:23:57,000
Alright. Thank you, can we cut?
1665
01:23:57,167 --> 01:23:59,463
[Dreamy synth-pop music]
1666
01:24:34,833 --> 01:24:36,833
[Music continues]
1667
01:25:02,333 --> 01:25:03,542
[Music fades]
1668
01:25:03,750 --> 01:25:05,643
Bertie, can you see the camera?
Where's the camera?
1669
01:25:05,667 --> 01:25:07,351
- Can you see the camera down there?
- Okay!
1670
01:25:07,375 --> 01:25:09,375
- Can you say hello?
- Can you wave to the camera?
1671
01:25:09,500 --> 01:25:11,809
- Can you wave hello?
- Hello.
1672
01:25:11,833 --> 01:25:12,893
- Hello.
- Hello.
1673
01:25:12,917 --> 01:25:14,125
Can you say thank you?
1674
01:25:14,292 --> 01:25:15,708
Thank you.
1675
01:25:15,833 --> 01:25:17,833
[Music resumes]
1676
01:25:57,625 --> 01:25:59,625
[Music continues]
1677
01:26:13,583 --> 01:26:15,583
[Music fades]
1678
01:26:18,792 --> 01:26:20,785
[Rhythmic, kinetic drum beats]
1679
01:26:22,958 --> 01:26:25,358
[Deep, hypnotic drum beats]
1680
01:26:36,292 --> 01:26:38,892
[Drum beats blend with percussive music]
1681
01:27:01,292 --> 01:27:04,299
[Percussion continues,
ethereal vocal resonance joins]
1682
01:27:25,875 --> 01:27:27,875
[Vocal resonance halts]
1683
01:27:33,042 --> 01:27:35,101
[Music concludes]
1684
01:27:35,125 --> 01:27:37,125
[Haunting, distorted music]
1685
01:28:29,375 --> 01:28:31,375
[Music fades]
1686
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:39,320
[Soft, ethereal ambient music]
1687
01:29:37,250 --> 01:29:39,250
[Music continues]
1688
01:30:06,341 --> 01:30:08,961
[Music fades]