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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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(bright music)

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- There is an
absolute crime epidemic

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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in the cryptocurrency space.

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(bright music)

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If a founder just calls the
police when a hack occurs,

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they're really just wasting
valuable time by doing so.

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They call me in to
get that money back.

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(bright music)

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It's best that I
remain anonymous.

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You don't always know who's
doing the attacking out there.

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It is incredible that if
you do turn on the news,

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you see breaking news,

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someone stole $450
from the cash register

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of the local 7-Eleven,

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and on the same day,

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someone stole $25
million from a protocol

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and you'll never hear about it.

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(bright music)

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When someone steals money,

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there is a time sensitivity
to figuring out who did that.

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Time really
matters in this case.

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They're gonna hide,
they're gonna disappear.

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(bright music)

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People think
it's not really real

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because it's internet
money or whatever.

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This is real money.

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It's real theft,
it's real criminals.

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It becomes, catch me if you can.

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(gentle music)

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- My guest today is Griff Green.

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Who's the-

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actually I can call you

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the representative
of the DAO, right?

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- I mean, since it's a
decentralised organisation,

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I guess anybody's
a representative of it.

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I'm definitely in it and
I know it pretty well.

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Honestly, we were not prepared

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to be the largest
crowd-fund ever.

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(bright music)

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I see $160 million in this
thing as a huge honey pot,

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and I don't want
it to get attacked.

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(bright music)

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I was originally a
chemical engineer,

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and I didn't really
like that profession.

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When 2009 came around

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and layoffs came, I was
like, pick me, pick me.

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I really wanted to
live my ultimate truth,

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and discover what the
truth is in the world.

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And it's just feels
like we're controlled

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by so many stories.

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How you're supposed to live,
put your money in the bank.

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I didn't trust the banks,

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and I just felt that like

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there's so much
to see in the world.

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I can explore other areas
and see what I like.

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(bright music)

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This is the last time

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I will be seeing Seattle
skyline at sunset.

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(bright music)

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Goodbye Seattle.

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(bright music)

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I just lived in a van for
a while and it's great.

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I went full on hippie, right?

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I'm rejecting society, I'm
selling everything I own.

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You go to a vegetarian like,
yoga camp,

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and you're gonna meet
people that are like me.

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I was living off
physical gold and silver,

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and my buddy was
storing it under his bed

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and he would cash it out,

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and then wire money to me
wherever I was in the world.

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(bright music)

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Because I didn't want to
contribute to the banking system

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that was causing so
much pain in the world.

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(bright music)

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Especially post 2008,

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there was just bad vibes,
real bad vibes.

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(bright music)

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When I went to Thailand
and had a Thai massage,

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oh my god, I was blown away.

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I loved it,

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I loved it.

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So, I became a
massage therapist.

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(bright music)

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I actually had
really nice clientele.

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It's like $200 a massage,

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but my wrists were
starting to hurt (laughs)

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and also I was not
making that much money.

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(upbeat music)

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I saw a Trace
Mayer video in 2011,

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and I think Bitcoin
was around $5

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and I was like,
this stuff is so cool,

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it's like super
cheap to transact.

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(upbeat music)

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And then it had with it,
this like, anarchist vibe,

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and so I traded
$1,500 worth of gold,

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and $1,500 worth of silver
for $3,000 in Bitcoin.

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(upbeat bright music)

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Then Bitcoin was going
up like 200%, 300%.

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Just like, what is this stuff?

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This is crazy.

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And I ended up with 24K

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and I was like, my God, I could
live off this for two years.

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(upbeat music)

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And the more I read, the
more value aligned I was.

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(gentle music)

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The biggest problem with
banks is the top-down control.

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They can freeze my accounts,

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they can take the
money that's in there.

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You know,
it's not really my money.

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If I send a Bitcoin
transaction to someone,

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they're gonna get it.

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No one can stop it,
it's decentralised.

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There's no one person or
one group that you can go to

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and say,
turn off your computers,

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and the Bitcoin will go away.

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(gentle music)

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I was obsessed.

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Bitcoin hijacked my brain,

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and I just couldn't think
about anything else.

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So, I ended up breaking
up with my girlfriend,

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because she was always
wanting my attention

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and all I wanted to do was
learn more about crypto.

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(gentle music)

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- Bitcoin is definitely
the original currency,

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you can send and receive money,
that's it.

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And then Ethereum is very much
seen as its main competitor.

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- Ethereum was created

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so that we could
build smart contracts.

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A lot of smart contracts
work like a vending machine.

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You send money in and
you get something out,

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and they have certain rules.

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(gentle music)

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You'd have to use Ether,
the currency of Ethereum,

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to make a smart
contract do something,

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whatever it's programmed to
do, like a vending machine,

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but a vending
machine for anything.

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- And once they're on Ethereum,
what makes them unique,

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is that they're no longer

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under the control
of the developer.

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(rising music)

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- [Green] I was looking
into companies in crypto,

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and Slock.it had someone

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who was very tight in
the Ethereum space,

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with a lot of legitimacy,

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Christoph Jentzsch.

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- Hi, my name is Christoph.

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- [Green] I was
sending countless emails

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to Christoph saying, please
let me work for Slock.it.

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- Griff Green contacted us.

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He said, I love what you're
doing, I would like to join.

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For me, he looked like
a funny hippie

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who loves life and enjoys it.

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- And eventually he replied,

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he was like, sure, you
can come work with us.

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I was like, oh my God,
it's so cool.

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- We came up with the
idea of Slock.it,

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and Slock.it standing
for like, smart lock,

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or to Slock something
with like the new wallet.

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That means,
to lock something up,

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which you could
open by a payment.

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With Ether or an
Ethereum channel,

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I could give the machine
something like a bank account,

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so it could receive payments
completely independently.

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The humble lock or Slock.

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A Slock can be used with
an Ethereum contract

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to open anything.

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For example,
this Slock powered door,

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can provide access to an
office or rental apartment.

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I founded it together with
my brother and Stefan Tual,

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at the end of 2015.

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- And in the beginning
we just had the idea.

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- As any startup,
you need money.

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I tried to look at
the phone book,

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called every VC
I could find there.

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Some of them gave me an
appointment to pitch it,

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everybody hated it.

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Like there are other smart
door locks out there,

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what's better with yours?

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Well, we are decentralised.

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Okay, what benefit does
this have for the customer?

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Well, it works without us.

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Okay, it was like, they
didn't get it at all.

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Like the VCs,
no interest, didn't get it.

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Only the ecosystem
around Ethereum

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could understand the
value of such a thing.

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So, maybe let's go into

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raising from the ecosystem.

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They're not VCs,
so how to do it?

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So, this is how it started.

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- So, that's why we
created the DAO.

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DAO is a Decentralised
Autonomous Organisation.

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- The DAO was a venture
capital fund, more or less.

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- Simply a smart
contract on Ethereum,

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where you could
send Ether to it,

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and then you would get a token,
just like a vending machine.

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The more tokens you have, the
more voting rights you have.

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And all of the money that was
sent to create those tokens,

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stayed in that DAO,

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in the smart
contracts of the DAO,

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it didn't go anywhere else,

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and the token holders
had control of it.

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(bright music)

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- The most important key

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and that's the name of

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Decentralised
Autonomous Organisation is,

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there is no hierarchy.

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And this decentralised approach

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means all decisions have to be
made by all the token holders.

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(bright music)

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(bright music)

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- This was the decision
to note this global DAO.

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This was aligned with the
spirit and the ecosystem.

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Nothing like this
has happened before.

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I will show you
today how this D,A,O,

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a Decentralised Autonomous
Organisation will work.

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We will do a presale,

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we'll do a fundraising,
like a crowdfunding,

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and that's where
we need your help.

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And very importantly,
you control the funds.

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(slow dramatic music)

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- In DAO there's a
saying that code is law,

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- Code is law.
- Law is code, code is law.

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- The idea of code is law,
really encapsulated the DAO.

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We're building a new
legal structure with code.

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(bright music)

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If there's not a line of code
that says you can do this,

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then you can't do it.

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- There's a strong
idea of code is law

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or, once the rules are set, they
aren't changeable anymore.

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The downside is, if you build
something truly decentralised,

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something that's truly unknown,

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then that also means that
there's no one who can fix it

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if something is broken.

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- So, you need a developer.

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So, someone who could help
me with writing the tests,

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and setting everything up,
there was so much work to do.

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- Hey, I'm Lefteris.

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They... hired Lefteris.

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and then it was the five of
us to start the DAO.

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Me and Griff, we are
quite different people.

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(bright music)

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Griff is extremely

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excited about everything and
he brings a smile to the room.

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I'm extremely technical.

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I like to be alone and
code in a dark room.

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Everything that had to do with
code, it was passing through me.

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Because it was a
very small startup,

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they had raised
no other funding.

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They were expecting
to get paid by the DAO.

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This was the first time that
anybody does such a thing.

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(bright music)

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- We had creators
for technical checks.

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- I knew Christoph because I
worked with him at Ethereum,

256
00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:22,477
and one day he came
up to me and said,

257
00:11:22,477 --> 00:11:25,590
"Hey, do you want to be
creator for the DAO?"

258
00:11:25,590 --> 00:11:27,873
I was excited, I thought
it was a great idea.

259
00:11:33,983 --> 00:11:36,870
(tense music)

260
00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:39,630
- We already had
platforms to crowdfund,

261
00:11:39,630 --> 00:11:41,550
but they were not the same

262
00:11:41,550 --> 00:11:43,650
as having a
decentralised venture fund.

263
00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:46,382
You could be a VC,

264
00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:51,693
without any financial barrier.

265
00:11:53,130 --> 00:11:56,760
As a young 18-year-old trying
to do startups in Portugal,

266
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,830
I had very little
access to capital.

267
00:11:58,830 --> 00:12:01,369
So, I just loved the idea.

268
00:12:01,369 --> 00:12:03,090
(tense music)

269
00:12:03,090 --> 00:12:06,483
- Everyone in Ethereum was
excited about our project.

270
00:12:07,530 --> 00:12:10,410
- In the beginning, not many
people are using Ethereum.

271
00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:12,780
2016 there were no applications,

272
00:12:12,780 --> 00:12:15,150
there was nothing
to do on Ethereum.

273
00:12:15,150 --> 00:12:16,410
The DAO was the first

274
00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:18,813
really interesting
investment opportunity.

275
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:21,780
- We had about
5,000 people in Slack,

276
00:12:21,780 --> 00:12:24,930
and I did feel a lot of pressure

277
00:12:24,930 --> 00:12:26,823
and urgency to finally release.

278
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,180
And they're like, why are
we not starting?

279
00:12:30,180 --> 00:12:31,920
What is holding us back.

280
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:32,873
I was always saying
the smart contracts

281
00:12:32,873 --> 00:12:34,440
are not really done yet.

282
00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:35,460
What's missing?

283
00:12:35,460 --> 00:12:36,690
I just wanna have another look,

284
00:12:36,690 --> 00:12:37,523
another look,

285
00:12:37,523 --> 00:12:38,940
test, one more test.

286
00:12:38,940 --> 00:12:40,230
Going after me and saying,

287
00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:42,734
work faster,
release it, release it.

288
00:12:42,734 --> 00:12:44,416
(tense music)

289
00:12:44,646 --> 00:12:47,640
And I remember,
the point of no return.

290
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,323
I was sitting there and said,

291
00:12:49,323 --> 00:12:50,970
well what are we
doing here right now?

292
00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:53,130
Like this is exploding,
this is going viral

293
00:12:53,130 --> 00:12:54,677
before it even started.

294
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,080
What am I doing here?
Is this safe?

295
00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:58,809
What can it lead to?

296
00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,175
(dramatic music)

297
00:13:01,385 --> 00:13:04,325
This is now the last
moment that I could say,

298
00:13:04,350 --> 00:13:06,090
stop, I'm not doing this.

299
00:13:06,090 --> 00:13:08,643
If I don't do this now,
I cannot stop it anymore.

300
00:13:09,690 --> 00:13:12,540
- We had everyone looking
at these contracts,

301
00:13:12,540 --> 00:13:16,860
but no one had a formal training
in smart contract audits,

302
00:13:16,860 --> 00:13:19,653
because there were no
smart contracts to audit.

303
00:13:20,910 --> 00:13:22,680
- So, writing smart contracts

304
00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:25,530
is very different from
writing normal software.

305
00:13:25,530 --> 00:13:27,450
If you write a normal
app and there's a bug,

306
00:13:27,450 --> 00:13:28,980
you just go ahead,
fix on a server,

307
00:13:28,980 --> 00:13:30,750
deploy a new version,
be done with it.

308
00:13:30,750 --> 00:13:32,880
But deploying a
smart contract means,

309
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,580
it can never ever
be changed again.

310
00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:37,860
This is the final version.

311
00:13:37,860 --> 00:13:41,340
Plus, it's available for
the whole world to use.

312
00:13:41,340 --> 00:13:44,850
Everybody can read it,
it's completely public.

313
00:13:44,850 --> 00:13:47,220
And usually
developers would say,

314
00:13:47,220 --> 00:13:50,040
it's almost impossible
to write perfect code.

315
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,715
So, your attack scenario
is immense.

316
00:13:53,715 --> 00:13:56,550
(alarm beeping)

317
00:13:56,550 --> 00:14:00,060
It took a lot of, for me,
overcoming fear,

318
00:14:00,092 --> 00:14:02,330
saying, well,
I can somehow handle this.

319
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,000
At some point I just
had to push the button,

320
00:14:04,020 --> 00:14:05,293
well, there's nothing
more I can do.

321
00:14:05,293 --> 00:14:07,920
I have looked at it
a thousand times,

322
00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:09,420
I feel like there's
nothing more I can do,

323
00:14:09,420 --> 00:14:11,132
so let's release it.

324
00:14:11,132 --> 00:14:13,882
(rhythmic music)

325
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,219
Then money was flowing into it.

326
00:14:20,219 --> 00:14:21,870
(rhythmic music)

327
00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:25,007
And this is then when
the narrative changed.

328
00:14:25,007 --> 00:14:26,940
(bright music)

329
00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:29,070
We thought, well, we need
a little bit of money

330
00:14:29,070 --> 00:14:31,340
for having maybe 5 or 10
people for one or two years,

331
00:14:31,340 --> 00:14:33,120
it would be 5 million.

332
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,680
- And that would be
definitely sufficient

333
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,960
to build a product
we want to build.

334
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,180
- And then the first million
came in, we are like happy.

335
00:14:39,180 --> 00:14:42,063
It works pretty quickly,
the second million so,

336
00:14:42,063 --> 00:14:43,050
that was quick.

337
00:14:43,050 --> 00:14:45,360
But well, we expected
the money to come in,

338
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:46,740
especially in the beginning.

339
00:14:46,740 --> 00:14:50,133
So, then it was 5 million,
10 million.

340
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,845
- I was watching it,
calling my other two friends

341
00:14:54,870 --> 00:14:56,820
and saying that we
really need to do this.

342
00:14:56,820 --> 00:14:58,110
Like I was pitching
it to them,

343
00:14:58,110 --> 00:15:02,790
because like, the amount
of money was spectacular.

344
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:06,265
- Now 20 million,
it rose so quickly up.

345
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,565
And we put a few
hundred ETH in there,

346
00:15:10,590 --> 00:15:14,370
which was a few thousand euros,

347
00:15:14,370 --> 00:15:16,710
and it was all that we had.

348
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:18,330
- I thought we would get 30,

349
00:15:18,330 --> 00:15:22,080
and I was by far the most
optimistic member of the team.

350
00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,140
We had $30 million within
the first few days.

351
00:15:25,140 --> 00:15:27,243
- 30 million, 50 million.

352
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:29,280
- When they grow to
that amount,

353
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,403
I thought, oh my god, what
am I part of now?

354
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:35,800
- Yeah, I think 90
million was the point,

355
00:15:35,803 --> 00:15:37,410
I had a meeting in Berlin,

356
00:15:37,435 --> 00:15:39,360
I felt so uneasy about it.

357
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:40,800
There were people there,

358
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,780
congratulating me,
it was a huge success.

359
00:15:42,780 --> 00:15:44,493
I didn't feel like,
happy at all.

360
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,915
- [Green] Christoph, when we
raised a hundred million dollars

361
00:15:47,940 --> 00:15:50,973
he actually physically
vomited when he found out.

362
00:15:51,870 --> 00:15:53,443
- He got scared.

363
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:55,380
Just because we didn't expect

364
00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:56,910
those high numbers there.

365
00:15:56,910 --> 00:15:58,800
- Man I was stoked.

366
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:00,630
Oh my God, are you kidding me?

367
00:16:00,630 --> 00:16:04,260
It was like, it was a success
out of my wildest dreams.

368
00:16:04,260 --> 00:16:07,020
I couldn't even believe
that much money existed.

369
00:16:07,020 --> 00:16:09,060
At the time I was
living in Seattle,

370
00:16:09,060 --> 00:16:11,550
just hunkering down
there with some friends,

371
00:16:11,550 --> 00:16:12,813
and paying like,

372
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,536
$300 in rent,

373
00:16:16,054 --> 00:16:18,420
and all of a sudden
my project is raising

374
00:16:18,420 --> 00:16:20,163
a hundred million dollars.

375
00:16:21,147 --> 00:16:23,647
(tense music)

376
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:28,620
- The DAO ended up with
$160 million worth of Ether,

377
00:16:28,620 --> 00:16:30,990
and that was a point where,

378
00:16:30,990 --> 00:16:32,640
it got kind of spooky
for everybody,

379
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:33,720
you know, who was in there,

380
00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:35,730
because nobody knew
what would happen.

381
00:16:35,730 --> 00:16:37,579
- But yet, it kept going up.

382
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,423
(upbeat music)

383
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,310
People got so excited
about the DAO's success

384
00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:46,680
that they started buying Ether.

385
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,390
- [DAO Member] And then the
Ether price went also out.

386
00:16:48,390 --> 00:16:52,773
So this was almost a quarter
billion dollars worth of ether.

387
00:16:53,790 --> 00:16:54,660
- Everybody could see that,

388
00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:57,040
this is going to be
the next big thing.

389
00:16:58,350 --> 00:17:00,350
- It was super,
super exciting.

390
00:17:00,375 --> 00:17:02,073
We were investors.

391
00:17:02,098 --> 00:17:03,780
We could call
ourselves investors.

392
00:17:03,780 --> 00:17:05,888
- Everybody wanted to
talk about it.

393
00:17:05,888 --> 00:17:09,055
(slow dramatic music)

394
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:14,010
I just actually
hated this situation,

395
00:17:14,010 --> 00:17:16,230
because it was too much
responsibility for me.

396
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:18,030
I was just a young
father of young kids.

397
00:17:18,030 --> 00:17:19,742
I was not a business guy,

398
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,760
a manager of huge
amounts of money.

399
00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:23,810
I was not...
It was not me.

400
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:27,480
Almost like a depression, like
I would not talk to anybody,

401
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,930
I was just hiding in my home.

402
00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,760
- I didn't get scared 'cause
I'm not a software developer,

403
00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,460
but Christoph,
and Lefteris, and Simon,

404
00:17:35,460 --> 00:17:37,140
they were scared
outta their minds.

405
00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:40,247
They've written code
before with bugs, you know?

406
00:17:40,272 --> 00:17:41,310
They know,

407
00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:42,930
they know there's bugs.

408
00:17:42,930 --> 00:17:44,670
They just don't
know what they are,

409
00:17:44,670 --> 00:17:46,710
but they know
that there are bugs.

410
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:48,180
(tense music)

411
00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:49,950
- The more and more money

412
00:17:49,950 --> 00:17:53,040
that is secured by the
code that you have written,

413
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,898
the more uncomfortable
you start feeling.

414
00:17:57,360 --> 00:17:59,220
The code that secures
the smart contract

415
00:17:59,220 --> 00:18:00,690
could have vulnerabilities.

416
00:18:00,690 --> 00:18:01,950
It could be that,

417
00:18:01,950 --> 00:18:04,950
there is something that
we didn't think about.

418
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:06,960
- We had this enormous
stress of,

419
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,450
we just did the largest
crowdfunding in history.

420
00:18:09,450 --> 00:18:10,920
- With so much money at stake,

421
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,960
it's just really scary.

422
00:18:13,694 --> 00:18:15,300
- This is like a huge target

423
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:16,725
for any attacker.

424
00:18:18,330 --> 00:18:20,520
- Felt exciting and dangerous.

425
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,240
So, we maybe got a sense that,

426
00:18:23,250 --> 00:18:26,403
okay, that's very big, and
what if something's wrong?

427
00:18:27,540 --> 00:18:30,060
Which, funny enough, didn't
take long to appear.

428
00:18:30,060 --> 00:18:32,220
It took like just a few days,

429
00:18:32,220 --> 00:18:36,285
after the money was in, that
this attack started to happen.

430
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,180
(tense music)

431
00:18:43,380 --> 00:18:47,223
- I woke up, checked on the
Slack, because that was my job.

432
00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:50,250
You know, you go to sleep,
you look at the Slack,

433
00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:51,360
you make sure everything's cool.

434
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:53,880
You wake up, look at the Slack,
make sure everything's cool.

435
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,950
This is about six
in the morning,

436
00:18:55,950 --> 00:18:57,869
and everything was not cool.

437
00:18:57,869 --> 00:19:00,600
(slow dramatic music)
(notifications pinging)

438
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,000
You could see how
much money it had,

439
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:04,920
and then you refresh the page

440
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:06,820
and then it starts
to have less money.

441
00:19:08,220 --> 00:19:11,373
I'm looking and like, oh my
god, it is being drained.

442
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,920
Thousands of dollars was being
drained every couple of minutes.

443
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,485
It shouldn't be possible, I
knew instantly it was a hack.

444
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,030
(tense music)

445
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:23,760
I called everyone that I could,

446
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,500
but Simon was the
only one who answered.

447
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:28,050
I told him, gotta get
ahold of Christoph, ASAP,

448
00:19:28,050 --> 00:19:29,610
like get him,
like go to his house,

449
00:19:29,610 --> 00:19:30,540
whatever, you know?

450
00:19:30,540 --> 00:19:32,010
Knock on his door.

451
00:19:32,010 --> 00:19:34,020
- I just called Christoph,

452
00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:35,760
and at that time
he was still sleeping

453
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,414
so I just had his
wife on the phone.

454
00:19:38,414 --> 00:19:41,670
I said, okay, maybe it would
been good to wake him up.

455
00:19:41,670 --> 00:19:43,380
- So, my wife was waking me up

456
00:19:43,380 --> 00:19:46,800
and saying, my brother Simon
is calling, it's really urgent.

457
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,540
So okay, I was waking up,

458
00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:50,240
we're looking at
the transactions.

459
00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:53,071
My first thought was,

460
00:19:53,071 --> 00:19:55,557
oh, someone is just
taking out his money.

461
00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,160
And then I looked
deep into it.

462
00:19:58,178 --> 00:20:00,123
Well no, he's taking
out more than he put in.

463
00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:05,370
And then I realised, this
is not what I anticipated,

464
00:20:05,370 --> 00:20:06,753
this is absolutely a hack,

465
00:20:08,580 --> 00:20:11,163
and he's draining
millions of dollars per hour.

466
00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:17,370
My thought was, there's no
way to fix this, that's it.

467
00:20:17,370 --> 00:20:20,294
The DAO's over, completely over.

468
00:20:20,294 --> 00:20:22,770
(tense music)

469
00:20:22,770 --> 00:20:24,660
- I go to the office,

470
00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:27,180
sitting down and then
somebody came to me,

471
00:20:27,180 --> 00:20:29,100
hey, have you seen what's
happening on the DAO?

472
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:31,590
Suddenly you see all
of these transactions,

473
00:20:31,590 --> 00:20:33,955
and how the
money's draining out.

474
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:35,590
Everybody panicking,

475
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,040
and selling,
and everything's going crazy.

476
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,830
But at the same time, it was
completely, like confusing.

477
00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:42,855
Nobody had an idea
what was happening.

478
00:20:42,855 --> 00:20:45,240
(slow dramatic music)

479
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,340
- So, the first thing
that we used to look at,

480
00:20:47,340 --> 00:20:49,710
was the price of
ether in the morning.

481
00:20:49,710 --> 00:20:54,086
I dove right into the forums
because it was tanking a lot.

482
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,049
- So, I crafted this message
that said:

483
00:21:09,390 --> 00:21:12,300
So, around $15 million
every hour was being

484
00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:13,893
drained out of the DAO.

485
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:15,840
- There is no way to stop this.

486
00:21:15,862 --> 00:21:17,670
We have no control, we
don't have any admin keys.

487
00:21:17,670 --> 00:21:18,750
We cannot upgrade the code.

488
00:21:18,750 --> 00:21:21,060
We got into the chat
with Stephan asking like,

489
00:21:21,060 --> 00:21:21,893
let's fix it,

490
00:21:21,893 --> 00:21:23,716
and no, that's not fixed,
DAO is over.

491
00:21:23,741 --> 00:21:26,135
He was not believing it like,
no, the DAO is over.

492
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,200
You can make a blog post,
that's it.

493
00:21:28,207 --> 00:21:30,030
(slow dramatic music)

494
00:21:30,030 --> 00:21:31,682
Over.

495
00:21:33,215 --> 00:21:36,605
I was so stressed, that
I just needed to lay down.

496
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:38,340
There was a bedroom
next to the office,

497
00:21:38,365 --> 00:21:39,995
I was just laying on the bed.

498
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:41,730
- The amount of stress

499
00:21:41,730 --> 00:21:44,820
that was on this man's
shoulders was out of control.

500
00:21:44,820 --> 00:21:47,730
He was losing it a little
bit, let's just be real.

501
00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:49,590
He needed to relax.

502
00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:50,940
I'm a masseuse so I'm like,
well hey,

503
00:21:50,940 --> 00:21:53,400
let me give you a massage
and calm you down.

504
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,520
- And he just came to me
and tried to calm me down.

505
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,174
There was still no, like
end of this in sight,

506
00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:02,195
and I was giving
everything I could.

507
00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:04,620
- Rubbed his arms and his
shoulders a little bit,

508
00:22:04,620 --> 00:22:07,260
just to like, get him
to relax, because man,

509
00:22:07,288 --> 00:22:10,488
it was a... it was one of the
toughest days of his life.

510
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:11,997
(tense music)

511
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,320
- Nobody including myself,
had seen this vulnerability.

512
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,900
- All the eyes that looked
at it, had not seen this.

513
00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:22,435
It became obvious what
it was quite early on.

514
00:22:22,435 --> 00:22:23,700
(code pinging)

515
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:26,553
- The DAO hack was
actually very complicated.

516
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,160
- It is like, saying I want
my money out,

517
00:22:31,170 --> 00:22:32,400
that's the function.

518
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,347
The bug in the code,

519
00:22:34,347 --> 00:22:37,110
was that he did not just
take his money with him,

520
00:22:37,110 --> 00:22:39,561
but way more than this.

521
00:22:39,639 --> 00:22:42,030
Just pretending to just
take his money out,

522
00:22:42,030 --> 00:22:45,270
but in a way, that the books
were not updated correctly,

523
00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:47,933
so he could do it again, and
again, and again, and again.

524
00:22:48,780 --> 00:22:50,460
- So, we're talking
literally about,

525
00:22:50,460 --> 00:22:53,220
two lines being flipped
in the wrong order.

526
00:22:53,220 --> 00:22:55,200
You flip them around,
the system is safe,

527
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,768
you flip them this way around,
the system is not safe.

528
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,623
(tense music)

529
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,204
- So, he recalled the
same function

530
00:23:04,229 --> 00:23:05,910
many, many, many times.

531
00:23:05,945 --> 00:23:07,505
You just look at it
and can't do nothing.

532
00:23:07,530 --> 00:23:09,769
I thought, well this just
continues until it's empty.

533
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,760
So, we can make some
meetings, we can discuss it

534
00:23:12,777 --> 00:23:14,970
and even during the meetings
the money got drained.

535
00:23:14,970 --> 00:23:17,820
It's like a very weird feeling
like we are discussing here,

536
00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:19,260
and the DAO is
getting drained

537
00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:21,600
at a rate of $50
million dollars per hour.

538
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,583
(tense music)

539
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:28,820
- It was happening
for several hours,

540
00:23:28,820 --> 00:23:30,060
it felt like an eternity.

541
00:23:30,060 --> 00:23:31,940
- At that moment he stopped.

542
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,121
- About 70% was still
left inside the DAO,

543
00:23:43,230 --> 00:23:45,630
and then it just stopped,
and there was silence.

544
00:23:47,580 --> 00:23:49,500
No one knew why
he stopped, right?

545
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:51,060
He could have continued that.

546
00:23:51,060 --> 00:23:51,893
- We have no idea,

547
00:23:51,893 --> 00:23:54,270
why did the hacker stop?

548
00:23:54,270 --> 00:23:57,150
The price of Ether
started to crash.

549
00:23:57,150 --> 00:24:01,080
By the end of it all the hacker
took around 30% of the funds

550
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:01,980
that DAO was holding,

551
00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:04,963
which ended up to be
about $50 million dollars.

552
00:24:06,997 --> 00:24:10,470
- $50 million missing
out of the smart contract.

553
00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:13,827
Now, this money was gone
and nobody knew where it is,

554
00:24:13,827 --> 00:24:15,451
and who did it.

555
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,020
(brooding music)

556
00:24:18,780 --> 00:24:22,770
- I decided to sell
all my DAO tokens

557
00:24:22,770 --> 00:24:25,560
for a third of their value.

558
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,340
Because they were
heavily, heavily deflated

559
00:24:29,340 --> 00:24:31,590
because of the attack
that had just happened.

560
00:24:32,430 --> 00:24:37,200
That bright future of investors
that we were counting on,

561
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,433
had just 'poofed' in a second.

562
00:24:40,433 --> 00:24:44,070
(tense rhythmic music)

563
00:24:44,070 --> 00:24:47,910
I was somewhat
disillusioned with myself,

564
00:24:47,910 --> 00:24:51,210
but I was also angry 'cause
I lost money (laughs)

565
00:24:51,210 --> 00:24:53,070
and I made my
friends lose money.

566
00:24:55,530 --> 00:24:57,810
- Christoph and
Slock.it were devastated.

567
00:24:57,810 --> 00:24:59,490
This new endeavour
that helps everybody

568
00:24:59,490 --> 00:25:01,890
now turns out to
be a disaster.

569
00:25:01,890 --> 00:25:03,240
- For me it was the relief

570
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,120
that this part of
my life is now over.

571
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:09,120
But then of course the
shock, people losing money.

572
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:11,760
I thought I would, I dunno
if I would go to jail,

573
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:13,740
or if my name
was ruined forever.

574
00:25:13,740 --> 00:25:17,133
Nobody would hire me again as
a developer after this bug.

575
00:25:19,229 --> 00:25:20,528
(tense music)

576
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:21,990
- There was a community

577
00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:25,683
that actually felt that the
DAO hack wasn't a hack at all.

578
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,420
They were following code is law,

579
00:25:30,570 --> 00:25:32,190
and a bug in the code,

580
00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:34,083
well that's a
loophole in the law.

581
00:25:35,190 --> 00:25:36,330
- There were people
in the community

582
00:25:36,330 --> 00:25:38,310
who started saying that
he did nothing wrong,

583
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:42,450
and that he just followed the
rules of the smart contract.

584
00:25:42,450 --> 00:25:45,157
That intentions do not matter,
that the code is the law.

585
00:25:45,157 --> 00:25:47,403
I thought that these
people are stupid.

586
00:25:48,570 --> 00:25:52,260
- We did say so, we pushed it
on our website, code is law.

587
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:53,820
And that's how

588
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:55,974
all the Ethereum
applications have been built.

589
00:25:58,290 --> 00:26:00,750
There was no room
for legal discourse,

590
00:26:00,750 --> 00:26:04,650
and so, I fully understood
the voices who were saying,

591
00:26:04,650 --> 00:26:05,483
well, code is law.

592
00:26:05,483 --> 00:26:06,825
What just happened happened,

593
00:26:06,825 --> 00:26:08,700
and there's no reason
to talk about a solution

594
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:10,530
because that's
what the code said,

595
00:26:10,530 --> 00:26:12,830
and he just executed
code as it's supposed to.

596
00:26:15,125 --> 00:26:18,335
I think the hacker, those
who lost money due to him,

597
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,310
they can sue him,
and that's good reason.

598
00:26:20,310 --> 00:26:23,193
He acted like, against the
intent of this contract.

599
00:26:24,381 --> 00:26:26,603
But there were people
saying no, shouldn't happen.

600
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,000
There are no lawyers or law
enforcement involved, no police.

601
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,160
You would think,
if you build something,

602
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:37,160
and you lose $50 million of
some other people's money,

603
00:26:37,890 --> 00:26:39,339
you would get a lawyer.

604
00:26:39,513 --> 00:26:40,503
And we didn't,

605
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,240
and there was nobody suing us.

606
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,760
- But the fact of the matter
is a lot of people were hurt.

607
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,000
Real people are hurt.

608
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,290
Code is not law, code is code.

609
00:26:49,290 --> 00:26:52,290
Everyone was like, all of a
sudden in a constant fight,

610
00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:54,411
and it just destroyed
our culture.

611
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,920
- I think it's safe to
to call it a tragedy

612
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,830
of epic proportions for the DAO.

613
00:27:04,830 --> 00:27:06,930
And I know that
the last 24 hours

614
00:27:06,930 --> 00:27:09,483
have been a wild
ride for us spectating.

615
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,810
You can only imagine how
difficult it has been

616
00:27:12,810 --> 00:27:15,690
for the team behind the DAO,

617
00:27:15,690 --> 00:27:18,630
in particular,
our man Griff Green.

618
00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:19,980
Where are you at right now?

619
00:27:21,060 --> 00:27:23,550
- I'm at, in Mittweida Germany,

620
00:27:23,550 --> 00:27:26,340
actually at Christoph's
mom's house,

621
00:27:26,340 --> 00:27:28,800
based in Mittweida
for now until,

622
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,940
well, we were hoping
to work for the DAO,

623
00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:36,324
but unfortunately that
doesn't seem very likely now.

624
00:27:36,324 --> 00:27:38,280
(gentle music)

625
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,728
- Must have been
a very rough last 24 hours.

626
00:27:42,129 --> 00:27:44,219
(gentle music)

627
00:27:45,120 --> 00:27:48,450
- When I saw the hack, I was
first, of course shocked.

628
00:27:48,450 --> 00:27:51,555
I have no idea how we
can fix the situation,

629
00:27:51,555 --> 00:27:53,449
and I lay on the ground
taking a deep breath.

630
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,026
And I did pray to God,

631
00:27:57,051 --> 00:27:59,229
and know that he can
help me through this.

632
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,280
In that moment, I really
did not see the exit.

633
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,530
But I've God at my side,
ask my wife,

634
00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:11,610
I owe it to them,

635
00:28:11,610 --> 00:28:13,200
to at least give
everything I can

636
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,640
to fix whatever I can fix,

637
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,770
and after I've done
everything I can,

638
00:28:16,770 --> 00:28:18,410
then I, at least,
know it's over.

639
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,698
(gentle music)

640
00:28:21,300 --> 00:28:22,500
- After the
initial feeling of shock,

641
00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:23,520
so I just thought, okay,

642
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,910
what can we do,
in order to fix this?

643
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,920
- Griff was actually excited.

644
00:28:29,940 --> 00:28:31,404
He wasn't happy about it.

645
00:28:31,429 --> 00:28:34,610
He's just always a happy
person, but it was like, action.

646
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,623
(upbeat music)

647
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:40,590
- I was enthused.

648
00:28:40,590 --> 00:28:42,570
I mean it was a tragic thing,

649
00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:44,250
but like there was
so much to do.

650
00:28:44,250 --> 00:28:45,911
I was energised by the

651
00:28:45,923 --> 00:28:48,660
opportunity to
really take action.

652
00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:49,920
Even though it was horrible,

653
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,479
it was one of the best
times of my life actually.

654
00:28:53,670 --> 00:28:56,400
Once the hack stopped, I mean
first off that was scary.

655
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,320
We didn't know when it
was gonna start up again,

656
00:28:58,320 --> 00:28:59,430
or if it would.

657
00:28:59,430 --> 00:29:03,120
We know that 70% of the
money that's left in the DAO,

658
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,820
over a hundred million
dollars, is still at risk.

659
00:29:05,820 --> 00:29:08,321
We have to figure out how to
save it, how to get it out.

660
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,398
Then the urgency started.

661
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,600
'cause then it was like, well
we can maybe do something.

662
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,110
If he got something out, the
rest of it is still there.

663
00:29:16,110 --> 00:29:18,533
Let's try to figure
out how he did it.

664
00:29:19,128 --> 00:29:20,367
- It was all action.

665
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,440
I honestly don't know
what I was feeling.

666
00:29:22,470 --> 00:29:24,270
It was just movement.

667
00:29:24,270 --> 00:29:25,890
I couldn't think outside of,

668
00:29:25,890 --> 00:29:27,960
what are we doing right now?

669
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:29,580
(upbeat music)

670
00:29:29,580 --> 00:29:32,040
Lefteris, he was instantly
focused on

671
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,070
how do we actually
recreate the hack?

672
00:29:35,070 --> 00:29:38,553
Can we recreate it, so we can
rescue the rest of the funds?

673
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:42,840
- You need to be able to
replicate what the attacker did.

674
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,760
I had to be completely alone.

675
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,030
I just had to sort
everything out,

676
00:29:48,030 --> 00:29:49,110
focus on the code,

677
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:50,790
and figure out if there
is anything that we can do

678
00:29:50,790 --> 00:29:54,640
in order to save whatever
remains inside of the DAO.

679
00:29:56,041 --> 00:29:57,840
- Lefteris, lemme just say,

680
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,150
incredible, incredible work,

681
00:30:00,150 --> 00:30:03,270
yesterday and today, just
coming up with attacks.

682
00:30:03,270 --> 00:30:06,390
I don't think he left his
computer for 20 hours straight,

683
00:30:06,390 --> 00:30:08,550
just attacking, the dedication.

684
00:30:08,550 --> 00:30:11,190
But we were able to
recreate the attack,

685
00:30:11,190 --> 00:30:13,238
and figure out what happened.

686
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,812
(tense music)
(keyboard clacking)

687
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,490
- I managed to replicate the
attack within a few hours.

688
00:30:20,490 --> 00:30:24,960
That meant that anybody else
could do exactly what I did,

689
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,520
and do a copycat attack
on the DAO at any moment,

690
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,533
and drain the rest of the funds.

691
00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:34,620
- There is a bug,

692
00:30:34,620 --> 00:30:37,050
and anyone in the
world could repeat

693
00:30:37,050 --> 00:30:39,000
what the DAO hacker just did.

694
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,890
Luckily, we were able to

695
00:30:40,890 --> 00:30:42,990
be one of the first
people to recreate it.

696
00:30:44,430 --> 00:30:45,330
- And then immediately,

697
00:30:45,330 --> 00:30:46,590
was the question
what do we do with it?

698
00:30:46,590 --> 00:30:49,470
Like, should we attack
the DAO in the same way?

699
00:30:49,470 --> 00:30:52,260
Just imagine, you're seeing
a hundred million dollars

700
00:30:52,260 --> 00:30:53,190
laying in front of you.

701
00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:54,360
You know it belongs
to someone else,

702
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:55,863
but everybody can take it.

703
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:58,920
If you are honest, you
should think to yourself:

704
00:30:58,950 --> 00:31:01,112
I can take it and
give it to the police,

705
00:31:01,112 --> 00:31:02,070
and they can try
to find the owner.

706
00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:04,050
If I don't do it,
someone else might do it.

707
00:31:04,050 --> 00:31:05,888
So, this was the
weird situation.

708
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,897
(tense music)

709
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:09,833
- What if we start
attacking the DAO?

710
00:31:09,833 --> 00:31:10,920
Is that okay?

711
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,102
Is that legal?

712
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,200
(tense music)

713
00:31:13,283 --> 00:31:16,620
- Slock.it wanted to stay
out of any such thing,

714
00:31:16,620 --> 00:31:19,080
because there are a
lot of legal questions.

715
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,420
- So, then the so-called
Robin Hood Group formed,

716
00:31:21,420 --> 00:31:22,440
they have all my support,

717
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,240
but we could also not
do it as a company,

718
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:26,370
and that's where now
Griff came into play.

719
00:31:26,370 --> 00:31:27,953
- It's kinda like black ops,
you know?

720
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,411
We weren't stealing
from the rich

721
00:31:30,436 --> 00:31:31,488
and giving to the poor.

722
00:31:31,488 --> 00:31:34,620
We were stealing from this
vulnerable smart contract,

723
00:31:34,620 --> 00:31:36,360
and making sure
that it would get back

724
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,340
to the DAO token holders.

725
00:31:38,340 --> 00:31:40,410
But it's catchy, and we're
gonna steal a bunch of money,

726
00:31:40,410 --> 00:31:42,144
and give it back to the people.

727
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,272
(tense music)

728
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,090
We had to bring in a rag-tag
group of hackers, right?

729
00:31:48,090 --> 00:31:50,010
So, of course Lefteris
was there.

730
00:31:50,010 --> 00:31:51,753
We also invited Fabian.

731
00:31:52,305 --> 00:31:55,025
They actually had a
lawyer in my kindergarten,

732
00:31:55,050 --> 00:31:57,510
and he told me like,
dangerous, you can't do this,

733
00:31:57,510 --> 00:32:00,030
and this is like you
shouldn't do, la la la.

734
00:32:00,030 --> 00:32:01,470
But there was no
other choice really,

735
00:32:01,470 --> 00:32:03,060
because that money
could have been gone

736
00:32:03,060 --> 00:32:04,770
within hours after that,

737
00:32:04,770 --> 00:32:06,120
and luckily enough
there were other people

738
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:07,202
that thought the same,

739
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,040
but we were a very
small group of people.

740
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,780
(tense music)

741
00:32:16,020 --> 00:32:19,110
- Are we the same as the
DAO hacker if we do this,

742
00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:21,000
like, are we gonna go to jail,

743
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,340
even if we have the
intention of giving it back?

744
00:32:23,340 --> 00:32:24,660
- Is it a crime?

745
00:32:24,660 --> 00:32:25,860
We had so many questions,

746
00:32:25,860 --> 00:32:29,760
and no one could actually
provide answers to them.

747
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,770
There was a lot of
pressure from the community

748
00:32:31,770 --> 00:32:33,540
to do something.

749
00:32:33,540 --> 00:32:34,620
- We have to figure out

750
00:32:34,620 --> 00:32:36,510
how to protect the
rest of this money,

751
00:32:36,510 --> 00:32:39,235
and make the best
outcome that we can.

752
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,870
(tense music)

753
00:32:42,270 --> 00:32:45,033
Fabian, Lefteris, and I
were all getting together.

754
00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:48,090
They started running drills,

755
00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:50,754
and seeing how fast they
could hack test DAOs.

756
00:32:50,754 --> 00:32:52,080
(tense music)

757
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:53,670
- We were repeating
the same attack,

758
00:32:53,670 --> 00:32:56,193
over and over on
copies of the DAO,

759
00:32:57,180 --> 00:33:00,513
trying to understand how can
we make it as fast as possible.

760
00:33:01,860 --> 00:33:04,050
- You see all these
ones and zeros,

761
00:33:04,050 --> 00:33:06,300
and numbers going
across the screen.

762
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:08,812
It's literally looks like
the matrix, you know?

763
00:33:09,275 --> 00:33:12,515
We're day and night working,
nonstop.

764
00:33:12,540 --> 00:33:16,140
I have 37 different slack chats

765
00:33:16,140 --> 00:33:19,800
that I need to answer tonight,
and I'm so sorry to everyone.

766
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,740
I don't sleep man, and
that's how we all are.

767
00:33:22,740 --> 00:33:26,533
Lefteris has been analysing
this code for 48 hours straight.

768
00:33:26,533 --> 00:33:29,317
I just, I mean I don't
know if he slept at all.

769
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,307
(tense music)

770
00:33:37,860 --> 00:33:40,110
- There was a second
attack happening.

771
00:33:40,110 --> 00:33:41,340
If we don't do something,

772
00:33:41,340 --> 00:33:43,650
they will take all the
money out of the pot,

773
00:33:43,650 --> 00:33:45,483
and we have to act very quickly.

774
00:33:46,830 --> 00:33:48,870
- We were afraid,
and by we meaning me,

775
00:33:48,870 --> 00:33:51,210
because I had to
push the button.

776
00:33:51,210 --> 00:33:52,860
The moment that
we decided that okay,

777
00:33:52,860 --> 00:33:55,727
it's time to do it, I
just pressed the button.

778
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,124
(upbeat music)

779
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,794
- First one person
started, then we started,

780
00:34:03,849 --> 00:34:06,630
then seven, eight other
DAO hackers

781
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:09,063
started attacking the
DAO all at the same time.

782
00:34:09,063 --> 00:34:11,646
(upbeat music)

783
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:16,650
And when those other
attacks started happening,

784
00:34:16,650 --> 00:34:19,612
we knew what to do, 'cause we
were already trained up on it.

785
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,123
- This was a race.

786
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,140
There were more
copycats coming up,

787
00:34:25,140 --> 00:34:28,170
and they were attacking
the DAO, and draining it.

788
00:34:28,170 --> 00:34:29,490
We had to drain the DAO faster,

789
00:34:29,490 --> 00:34:32,239
and save as much of
the funds as we could.

790
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,780
(upbeat music)

791
00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:35,823
- We started with just like
a hundred thousand dollars,

792
00:34:35,823 --> 00:34:38,520
that we would take out
in every transaction.

793
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:40,050
And when we didn't
see any issues,

794
00:34:40,050 --> 00:34:41,217
we upped it to 300,000,

795
00:34:41,217 --> 00:34:43,260
and then we upped
it to a million dollars.

796
00:34:43,260 --> 00:34:45,708
So, our second
hack was pretty quick.

797
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,452
(upbeat music)

798
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,397
It was a war room, you know,

799
00:34:50,397 --> 00:34:52,860
and they call it war
room for a reason.

800
00:34:52,860 --> 00:34:55,080
It is chaos, it is brutal.

801
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:55,980
There's no time to eat,

802
00:34:55,980 --> 00:34:59,370
there's no time to go to the
bathroom, you just have to go.

803
00:34:59,370 --> 00:35:02,370
We were able to take
around $95 million,

804
00:35:02,370 --> 00:35:05,567
but there was still a lot of
other hackers going at it.

805
00:35:05,592 --> 00:35:07,770
One of 'em got
around $3 million,

806
00:35:07,770 --> 00:35:09,960
and then there were
a lot of smaller ones.

807
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,400
There were actually
a lot of people

808
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,040
trying to hack the DAO in
that moment, that got nothing.

809
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,910
- By the end, once it was
over, we were really happy,

810
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:19,893
and immediately
we were wondering,

811
00:35:19,905 --> 00:35:21,175
okay, now what do we do?

812
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,941
- It was a very intense moment.

813
00:35:23,135 --> 00:35:26,017
I was happy that it
was over. (laughs)

814
00:35:26,074 --> 00:35:28,741
(soundtrack boom)

815
00:35:31,980 --> 00:35:34,869
- I decided to not speak
about it in public.

816
00:35:34,869 --> 00:35:36,840
(ominous music)

817
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,300
I was really afraid of
any repercussions.

818
00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:42,812
I didn't want anything bad to
happen to me or to my family.

819
00:35:45,150 --> 00:35:47,460
- There is
absolutely a fear that,

820
00:35:47,460 --> 00:35:50,550
oh my god, we have control
of a hundred million dollars.

821
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:51,630
The easiest hack,

822
00:35:51,630 --> 00:35:53,610
doesn't have to do with
smart contracts at all.

823
00:35:53,610 --> 00:35:54,990
It's called the wrench attack.

824
00:35:54,990 --> 00:35:57,030
When someone comes to
your house with a wrench,

825
00:35:57,030 --> 00:35:58,930
and says, "gimme all your
money", right?

826
00:36:00,043 --> 00:36:02,710
(ominous music)

827
00:36:04,650 --> 00:36:07,680
Actually, everyone made
us out to be heroes.

828
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,440
So like, oh thank god the
Robin Hood Group did it.

829
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,030
Everyone trusted us,

830
00:36:12,030 --> 00:36:14,760
and felt confident that
we are the good guys,

831
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,650
and then we started
doing the accounting,

832
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,964
and figuring out how to
give everyone's money back.

833
00:36:19,261 --> 00:36:21,844
(tense music)

834
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,360
- I had been learning
about hacking

835
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,640
since I was eight or nine.

836
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,480
Just the fact that I
didn't care enough,

837
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,960
to even do the slightest
review on this code

838
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,813
prior to pitching this to
my friends actually hurt me.

839
00:36:45,090 --> 00:36:48,753
So, I was gonna start
hacking stuff myself.

840
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,000
I started looking into
all the other projects,

841
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,203
and I started trying to break
them before anyone else did.

842
00:36:59,340 --> 00:37:01,353
Hacking is not inherently bad.

843
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:07,280
To me, hacking is very
much like lock picking.

844
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,930
The thing that I get from it
is more, like solving a puzzle.

845
00:37:12,930 --> 00:37:15,300
Sometimes it used
with nefarious intents,

846
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:16,740
sometimes it's not.

847
00:37:16,740 --> 00:37:18,600
That's the distinction
between a black hat,

848
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,343
and a white hat hacker.

849
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:25,050
Black hat hackers in the crypto
space actually steal money,

850
00:37:25,050 --> 00:37:26,610
versus a white hat hacker,

851
00:37:26,610 --> 00:37:29,940
which is someone that
has good intentions,

852
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,173
to save funds from being stolen.

853
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,929
You're trying to exploit it,
before someone else does.

854
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,080
(tense music)

855
00:37:43,890 --> 00:37:47,120
- I got fully into
looking at Ethereum.

856
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,973
At the time, the DAO hack
was a year and a half old.

857
00:37:52,650 --> 00:37:54,450
There were still plenty of
discussions that were happening

858
00:37:54,450 --> 00:37:57,213
about the code is law
aspect in an attack.

859
00:37:58,290 --> 00:38:00,780
The DAO was
the first of its kind,

860
00:38:00,780 --> 00:38:02,883
and it ended in a disaster.

861
00:38:03,780 --> 00:38:05,130
But people were
still interested in

862
00:38:05,130 --> 00:38:06,570
decentralised organisations.

863
00:38:06,570 --> 00:38:08,405
They wanted to
participate in them,

864
00:38:08,430 --> 00:38:09,263
they wanted to create them.

865
00:38:09,288 --> 00:38:10,638
That wasn't affected

866
00:38:11,070 --> 00:38:12,810
by what had happened.

867
00:38:12,810 --> 00:38:14,460
- And one of the major trends

868
00:38:14,460 --> 00:38:18,243
that we started seeing was
DeFi, decentralised finance.

869
00:38:19,110 --> 00:38:22,260
Picking up the
financial instruments

870
00:38:22,260 --> 00:38:24,750
that we could
find in Wall Street,

871
00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:28,230
and making versions

872
00:38:28,230 --> 00:38:30,720
to be put on top of Ethereum.

873
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:34,050
What we're changing with DeFi,

874
00:38:34,050 --> 00:38:35,790
is that,

875
00:38:35,790 --> 00:38:40,020
we don't need to
trust a third party.

876
00:38:40,020 --> 00:38:42,990
You are not trusting humans.

877
00:38:42,990 --> 00:38:45,420
It doesn't stop on weekends,

878
00:38:45,420 --> 00:38:47,160
and it's all code.

879
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,623
It's all smart contracts
that live on Ethereum.

880
00:38:51,780 --> 00:38:54,450
So, DeFi has become really big,

881
00:38:54,450 --> 00:38:56,540
and with it, Ethereum.

882
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,546
(upbeat music)

883
00:38:59,010 --> 00:39:02,670
We now have protocols that
are at 10 figure mark,

884
00:39:02,670 --> 00:39:05,883
billions of dollars being
deposited into them.

885
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:10,240
- But the term protocols is
used in decentralised finance.

886
00:39:10,260 --> 00:39:11,910
Protocol or set of rules,

887
00:39:11,910 --> 00:39:14,730
for say, swapping assets
or borrowing and lending,

888
00:39:14,730 --> 00:39:17,208
which isn't going to be
controlled by a company.

889
00:39:17,208 --> 00:39:18,390
(upbeat music)

890
00:39:18,390 --> 00:39:21,780
For the average Joe, they've
got some crypto assets,

891
00:39:21,780 --> 00:39:25,383
which, up until decentralised
finance are effectively idle.

892
00:39:26,340 --> 00:39:27,720
When DeFi comes along,

893
00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,595
suddenly you can put
these assets to work.

894
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:33,840
- I was just reaching
out to projects,

895
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:34,980
to help them figure out

896
00:39:34,980 --> 00:39:37,590
if they could have
any vulnerabilities.

897
00:39:37,590 --> 00:39:39,840
Me, and a couple more people

898
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,340
started offering these services.

899
00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:43,473
We started charging for them,

900
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:49,640
and we've secured funds in the
order of dozens of billions.

901
00:39:50,790 --> 00:39:53,730
Black hat hackers
have been innovating.

902
00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:58,500
So, black hats have more and
more tools at their disposal,

903
00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:00,210
and the white hat
hackers do the same,

904
00:40:00,210 --> 00:40:03,827
to actually stop the
attacks in their tracks.

905
00:40:04,043 --> 00:40:06,327
(tense music)

906
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,220
- I started speaking
to Dillon Kellar,

907
00:40:11,220 --> 00:40:13,125
who was the founder,

908
00:40:13,125 --> 00:40:15,777
and author of the
Indexed Finance Protocol.

909
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,718
- The idea was to give
people a way to invest

910
00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:25,230
in the cryptocurrency
space as a whole,

911
00:40:25,230 --> 00:40:27,072
rather than specific assets.

912
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:28,835
In traditional finance,

913
00:40:28,860 --> 00:40:30,630
people invest in index funds

914
00:40:30,630 --> 00:40:32,670
because it's a more stable way

915
00:40:32,670 --> 00:40:36,030
to get exposure to the
economy as a whole,

916
00:40:36,030 --> 00:40:38,433
without having to invest
in particular assets.

917
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:41,370
Where the S&P 500 tracks

918
00:40:41,370 --> 00:40:44,850
some of the top 500 assets
in the stock market,

919
00:40:44,850 --> 00:40:47,280
Indexed Finance was
supposed to track,

920
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:48,720
some of the top
performing assets

921
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:50,289
in the cryptocurrency space.

922
00:40:51,064 --> 00:40:53,647
(brooding music)

923
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:59,280
- Smart contracts underpin
the Indexed Finance protocol.

924
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,890
They perform the tasks

925
00:41:01,890 --> 00:41:04,380
that humans would
be expected to do,

926
00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:06,076
in order to keep
these things running.

927
00:41:06,870 --> 00:41:09,360
I'd spent a bunch of
time working in banking,

928
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,660
and I agreed to help out
with explaining stuff.

929
00:41:14,965 --> 00:41:16,702
- It's really rare to
have somebody show up

930
00:41:16,727 --> 00:41:18,263
in your community like that,

931
00:41:18,263 --> 00:41:19,560
and be so interested
in your protocol,

932
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:21,840
that they're willing
to just help you.

933
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:23,640
I asked him if he
would quit his job,

934
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,563
and work on the project.

935
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:27,722
He had a stable job,

936
00:41:27,747 --> 00:41:32,473
and a wife, and a house that
he had to pay a mortgage on.

937
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:35,880
- It's weird to say that,

938
00:41:35,883 --> 00:41:39,180
working on something that
replicates an index fund

939
00:41:39,180 --> 00:41:41,190
is an exciting thing
to do, right?

940
00:41:41,190 --> 00:41:42,792
But it was, to me,

941
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,977
that eventually I turned
around and said, tag me in.

942
00:41:47,940 --> 00:41:50,100
Before the Indexed Finance
Protocol went live,

943
00:41:50,100 --> 00:41:51,450
there were security audits.

944
00:41:52,650 --> 00:41:54,450
To hunt out vulnerabilities,

945
00:41:54,450 --> 00:41:57,930
the code was presented
to two security researchers,

946
00:41:57,930 --> 00:41:59,760
who have a reputation
in the field.

947
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:01,562
One of them is Daniel Luca.

948
00:42:01,996 --> 00:42:04,579
(gentle music)

949
00:42:06,510 --> 00:42:09,660
- I was one of the people
that audited the code,

950
00:42:09,660 --> 00:42:12,780
before it was impossible
to change the rules.

951
00:42:12,780 --> 00:42:15,330
I spent two weeks
checking out the code,

952
00:42:15,330 --> 00:42:17,100
spending time with Dillon,

953
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:20,502
trying to understand if it
can be exploited in any way.

954
00:42:20,502 --> 00:42:23,040
(tense music)

955
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,410
I'm the last person
that checks the code

956
00:42:25,410 --> 00:42:27,420
before people start adding

957
00:42:27,420 --> 00:42:29,727
tens of millions
of dollars in it.

958
00:42:29,727 --> 00:42:31,620
(tense music)

959
00:42:31,620 --> 00:42:33,639
You should always be afraid.

960
00:42:33,639 --> 00:42:36,139
(tense music)

961
00:42:42,025 --> 00:42:44,730
We did discuss a critical
part of the code.

962
00:42:44,730 --> 00:42:48,393
We weren't initially
super sure that it's safe.

963
00:42:49,710 --> 00:42:53,880
There are some parts in code
that if that goes wrong,

964
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,480
if it doesn't work well,
the system is manipulated,

965
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,827
and the whole thing explodes.

966
00:42:59,827 --> 00:43:02,327
(tense music)

967
00:43:04,230 --> 00:43:07,260
I check the same 10 lines
of code for two, three days,

968
00:43:07,260 --> 00:43:09,720
'cause it seemed like
maybe something was there.

969
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:12,420
Dillon said that he thought
about it quite a lot,

970
00:43:12,420 --> 00:43:14,643
and he thinks everything's fine,

971
00:43:15,630 --> 00:43:18,287
and I agreed to it.

972
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,090
(tense music)

973
00:43:20,580 --> 00:43:23,640
- I'm super happy
to have Dillon on the podcast,

974
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:24,540
as it's currently

975
00:43:24,540 --> 00:43:28,410
one of the fastest rising
projects in the DeFi space.

976
00:43:28,410 --> 00:43:31,230
- Then about an hour,

977
00:43:31,230 --> 00:43:34,173
I think like $30,000
had been deposited.

978
00:43:35,250 --> 00:43:37,410
Suddenly, my heart
just started racing,

979
00:43:37,410 --> 00:43:38,770
so, I was so,

980
00:43:38,770 --> 00:43:40,770
I was like, oh man, what if-

981
00:43:40,770 --> 00:43:42,510
What if I messed something
up in the contracts?

982
00:43:42,510 --> 00:43:45,330
I got it audited, but you
know, I really need to be sure,

983
00:43:45,330 --> 00:43:46,574
so-

984
00:43:46,574 --> 00:43:48,630
'Cause I hadn't launched
anything previously

985
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:51,737
that had actually held any
significant amount of money.

986
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:53,550
(tense music)

987
00:43:53,790 --> 00:43:56,340
- When people started
depositing money,

988
00:43:56,340 --> 00:43:59,730
I suddenly got
really worried about,

989
00:43:59,730 --> 00:44:01,330
how well I had written the code.

990
00:44:02,790 --> 00:44:05,790
I went back and
looked at all of the code,

991
00:44:05,790 --> 00:44:07,830
trying to reassess it,

992
00:44:07,830 --> 00:44:10,908
but as it kept growing, it
turned more into excitement.

993
00:44:10,908 --> 00:44:13,491
(bright music)

994
00:44:14,970 --> 00:44:19,140
It went from being like a few
tens of thousands of dollars,

995
00:44:19,140 --> 00:44:22,452
to pretty quickly,
getting into the millions.

996
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,332
(bright music)

997
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:29,700
- The Assets belonged to
thousands of individual people.

998
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:34,293
The average value across
those wallets was, $2500.

999
00:44:35,220 --> 00:44:36,053
- At its peak,

1000
00:44:36,053 --> 00:44:38,673
it had about $70
million in the protocol,

1001
00:44:39,815 --> 00:44:41,190
and that felt good.

1002
00:44:41,190 --> 00:44:42,810
It's also scary.

1003
00:44:42,810 --> 00:44:44,310
- The worm appears in your mind,

1004
00:44:44,310 --> 00:44:46,126
like this is a lot of money.

1005
00:44:46,126 --> 00:44:48,709
(bright music)

1006
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,035
I think I was just doing
what anyone does

1007
00:45:00,060 --> 00:45:02,763
around 7:00 PM in
the UK in October.

1008
00:45:02,763 --> 00:45:04,440
(bright music)

1009
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,530
We'd gone out and
picked up a takeaway.

1010
00:45:07,530 --> 00:45:09,810
We'd sat down,
we'd put stuff on a plate.

1011
00:45:11,092 --> 00:45:12,655
The dog was sitting next to us,

1012
00:45:12,925 --> 00:45:14,045
(bright music)

1013
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,065
and my phone completely
detonated next to me.

1014
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,680
(bright music)
(phone buzzing)

1015
00:45:28,860 --> 00:45:30,987
They were messages,
just question marks,

1016
00:45:30,987 --> 00:45:32,880
and links to transactions,

1017
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,744
and it's just, what is this?

1018
00:45:34,744 --> 00:45:37,911
(music impact)

1019
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:43,470
It's dawning on me, within
three or four seconds.

1020
00:45:43,470 --> 00:45:46,340
Something has just
gone drastically wrong.

1021
00:45:46,340 --> 00:45:47,820
(phone buzzing)

1022
00:45:47,820 --> 00:45:48,840
All that I was looking at,

1023
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,130
at that moment was,

1024
00:45:50,130 --> 00:45:51,273
an attack that,

1025
00:45:51,273 --> 00:45:53,934
was resulting in 12 and a
half million dollars gone.

1026
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:55,837
(phone buzzing)

1027
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,560
I felt blind panic.
(tense music)

1028
00:46:00,570 --> 00:46:01,820
I stood up like a shot.

1029
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,276
I had food on my lap
just crash to the floor,

1030
00:46:05,306 --> 00:46:06,420
(plate smashing)

1031
00:46:06,420 --> 00:46:07,464
broke the plate.

1032
00:46:07,489 --> 00:46:09,870
It's terror heroin.
(phone buzzing)

1033
00:46:09,909 --> 00:46:14,760
(phone buzzing)
(tense music)

1034
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,887
This gut wrenching,
sickening feeling.

1035
00:46:17,887 --> 00:46:20,624
(dog eating)

1036
00:46:24,090 --> 00:46:26,340
I was maybe three
steps out of my chair,

1037
00:46:26,340 --> 00:46:29,518
and I was making
a call to Dillon.

1038
00:46:29,518 --> 00:46:30,990
(ominous music)

1039
00:46:30,990 --> 00:46:32,760
Couple of rings,

1040
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,070
5, 6, 7 interminable rings.

1041
00:46:36,070 --> 00:46:38,737
(ominous music)

1042
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,030
- It was around noon,

1043
00:46:42,030 --> 00:46:45,148
and I was just hanging
out in my living room.

1044
00:46:45,148 --> 00:46:46,860
(ominous music)

1045
00:46:46,860 --> 00:46:49,260
I had recently gotten
a bit of an interest

1046
00:46:49,260 --> 00:46:51,960
in playing around
with electronics,

1047
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,878
trying to take apart a

1048
00:46:53,890 --> 00:46:56,489
DVD player to take
a laser out of it.

1049
00:46:56,489 --> 00:46:58,017
(ominous music)

1050
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,680
I didn't have my phone with me.

1051
00:47:00,690 --> 00:47:03,150
Eventually I heard
the phone ringing,

1052
00:47:03,150 --> 00:47:04,300
so I went into my room.

1053
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,950
(ominous music)
(phone buzzing)

1054
00:47:07,950 --> 00:47:10,854
And, I saw Laurence
was calling me.

1055
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:12,647
(tense music)
(phone buzzing)

1056
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:14,430
We didn't usually
have phone calls and

1057
00:47:14,430 --> 00:47:16,800
mostly talked over text so,

1058
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,690
when I saw that he was calling,

1059
00:47:18,690 --> 00:47:21,375
it's kind of immediate panic.

1060
00:47:21,375 --> 00:47:23,250
(tense music)

1061
00:47:23,250 --> 00:47:25,680
- He finally picks up, but
at that point, you know,

1062
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,320
my voice is already
breaking over the phone.

1063
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,270
Indexed has been attacked.

1064
00:47:30,270 --> 00:47:33,167
Those were the only
words that we shared.

1065
00:47:33,167 --> 00:47:36,180
(tense music)

1066
00:47:36,180 --> 00:47:37,440
- It was 10:00 PM,

1067
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,930
I was scrolling through Twitter,

1068
00:47:39,930 --> 00:47:40,890
and I saw a tweet

1069
00:47:40,890 --> 00:47:44,310
that something happened
to Indexed finance.

1070
00:47:44,310 --> 00:47:48,840
I messaged Dillon right away.
(tense music)

1071
00:47:49,140 --> 00:47:50,250
- The discord server,

1072
00:47:50,250 --> 00:47:53,777
where everyone was conversing
had just completely detonated.

1073
00:47:53,777 --> 00:47:55,110
(tense music)

1074
00:47:55,110 --> 00:47:57,540
Everyone, question marks,
links, what is going on?

1075
00:47:57,540 --> 00:47:59,019
What's happening?

1076
00:47:59,019 --> 00:47:59,975
(tense music)

1077
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,940
I had said, no,
the assets are not safe.

1078
00:48:02,940 --> 00:48:04,830
The reaction from everyone was,

1079
00:48:04,830 --> 00:48:06,180
the fury, and anger,

1080
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:08,468
and disappointment
that you would expect.

1081
00:48:08,468 --> 00:48:10,980
(tense music)

1082
00:48:10,980 --> 00:48:12,618
This is actually
quite hard to re-live.

1083
00:48:13,573 --> 00:48:15,780
I was receiving death
threats, nearly immediately,

1084
00:48:15,780 --> 00:48:18,413
and at a pretty heavy rate.

1085
00:48:18,413 --> 00:48:20,580
(tense music)

1086
00:48:20,580 --> 00:48:23,103
I spent hours just shaking,

1087
00:48:24,330 --> 00:48:29,330
while trying to at the same
time, work on a response.

1088
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:30,660
We started forming

1089
00:48:30,660 --> 00:48:33,703
what we call the Indexed
Finance war room.

1090
00:48:33,703 --> 00:48:38,703
(tense music)
(keys clinging)

1091
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,960
- I was trying to just
suppress the immediate panic

1092
00:48:44,970 --> 00:48:46,473
that I was feeling.

1093
00:48:48,150 --> 00:48:51,570
Daniel and I were
trying to understand,

1094
00:48:51,570 --> 00:48:54,354
exactly how the
attack had happened.

1095
00:48:54,354 --> 00:48:57,521
(tense music)

1096
00:48:59,100 --> 00:49:00,477
- This was the...

1097
00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:05,580
single hack that happened
to something I audited,

1098
00:49:05,580 --> 00:49:10,530
but it's not the right time to
start doubting yourself then.

1099
00:49:10,530 --> 00:49:15,330
I spent about four hours
from 10:00 PM to 2:00 AM,

1100
00:49:15,330 --> 00:49:17,100
going through everything.

1101
00:49:17,100 --> 00:49:19,214
It was not a normal hack.

1102
00:49:19,214 --> 00:49:21,881
(tense music)

1103
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:26,430
- Just trying to load the
transaction on my browser

1104
00:49:26,430 --> 00:49:28,143
caused my computer to freeze,

1105
00:49:28,245 --> 00:49:31,345
because there were
thousands of transactions.

1106
00:49:31,345 --> 00:49:34,050
(tense music)
(software clinging)

1107
00:49:34,050 --> 00:49:37,260
- There was a lot of
frustration in the war room.

1108
00:49:37,260 --> 00:49:40,410
Also the lack of sleep
after a few hours,

1109
00:49:40,410 --> 00:49:41,910
but there's a lot of adrenaline

1110
00:49:41,910 --> 00:49:45,625
that keeps you going till we
had some kind of breakthrough.

1111
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:48,667
(tense music)

1112
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:54,630
- This attack involved
buying huge amounts

1113
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:56,490
of a particular asset,

1114
00:49:56,490 --> 00:49:59,225
way over what would be
economically sensible.

1115
00:49:59,225 --> 00:50:00,810
(tense music)

1116
00:50:00,810 --> 00:50:03,540
The way that the
attack was executed,

1117
00:50:03,540 --> 00:50:04,923
introduced a price glitch.

1118
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:09,030
The protocol is assuming that,

1119
00:50:09,030 --> 00:50:10,530
people that are
interacting with it,

1120
00:50:10,530 --> 00:50:12,732
are going to be rational.

1121
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:18,660
If you flood the contract
with these irrational actions,

1122
00:50:18,660 --> 00:50:21,353
the whole thing's just
thrown completely into chaos.

1123
00:50:22,617 --> 00:50:25,117
(tense music)

1124
00:50:26,430 --> 00:50:28,890
- I already had looked into

1125
00:50:28,890 --> 00:50:30,570
this particular
aspect of the code,

1126
00:50:30,570 --> 00:50:32,292
and I had failed to

1127
00:50:32,304 --> 00:50:34,833
identify the
vulnerability there.

1128
00:50:35,105 --> 00:50:35,938
(tense music)

1129
00:50:36,047 --> 00:50:37,880
I should have caught this.

1130
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:39,870
(tense music)

1131
00:50:39,870 --> 00:50:43,094
He was able to steal
about $16 million.

1132
00:50:43,684 --> 00:50:44,970
(tense music)

1133
00:50:44,970 --> 00:50:46,800
- So, theft from all
of the users

1134
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:49,290
that have deposited
assets into this protocol,

1135
00:50:49,290 --> 00:50:51,090
these assets are now gone.

1136
00:50:51,090 --> 00:50:52,845
They were now sitting in a

1137
00:50:52,857 --> 00:50:55,235
wallet controlled
by an attacker.

1138
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,920
(tense music)

1139
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,815
- I was the only person who
wrote the smart contracts

1140
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,502
and so, it's on me to
get that right.

1141
00:51:07,527 --> 00:51:08,910
(atmospheric music)

1142
00:51:08,910 --> 00:51:12,153
I didn't want Laurence or
anyone else to be blamed for it.

1143
00:51:13,710 --> 00:51:15,907
I posted on Twitter saying,

1144
00:51:15,907 --> 00:51:18,750
"I have to personally take
responsibility for this one.

1145
00:51:18,750 --> 00:51:19,583
I fucked up.

1146
00:51:22,110 --> 00:51:23,310
I'm extremely sorry to everyone

1147
00:51:23,310 --> 00:51:28,020
who lost money because of a
mistake I made 363 days ago.

1148
00:51:28,020 --> 00:51:29,040
I haven't thought
of this function

1149
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,590
more than a handful of
times this entire year,

1150
00:51:31,590 --> 00:51:34,490
and now people have lost about
$16 million because of it."

1151
00:51:35,831 --> 00:51:38,414
(rising music)

1152
00:51:41,121 --> 00:51:43,621
(tense music)

1153
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:49,110
- People tend to contact me

1154
00:51:49,110 --> 00:51:52,380
when there is a
big hack happening,

1155
00:51:52,380 --> 00:51:54,180
because of the experience

1156
00:51:54,180 --> 00:51:57,997
that I have had dealing with
the DAO and the aftermath.

1157
00:51:57,997 --> 00:52:00,120
(tense music)

1158
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,850
So, since Laurence
was a friend of mine,

1159
00:52:02,850 --> 00:52:06,480
we ended up in a war room
together in order to,

1160
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,220
try and figure out
what is happening

1161
00:52:08,220 --> 00:52:10,358
and how we can probably help.

1162
00:52:10,358 --> 00:52:12,780
(tense music)

1163
00:52:12,780 --> 00:52:14,726
It felt quite personal to me.

1164
00:52:14,726 --> 00:52:17,226
(tense music)

1165
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:25,200
It became obvious quite early
that the hacker was smart,

1166
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,102
but didn't know how
to cover their tracks.

1167
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,890
- The attack itself told us

1168
00:52:31,890 --> 00:52:35,220
a couple of things about
who we were working with.

1169
00:52:35,220 --> 00:52:39,179
As a piece of engineering, it
was incredibly well-crafted.

1170
00:52:39,179 --> 00:52:41,760
(tense music)

1171
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:43,323
The other thing it told us,

1172
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,560
was the attack address

1173
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,540
had been constructed
in such a way,

1174
00:52:48,540 --> 00:52:51,358
as to include a hate symbol.

1175
00:52:51,358 --> 00:52:53,858
(tense music)

1176
00:52:58,710 --> 00:53:00,677
- And then looking at the
smart contract that he used

1177
00:53:00,702 --> 00:53:02,550
to actually perform the attack,

1178
00:53:02,550 --> 00:53:05,924
there was the N word just
sprinkled all throughout it.

1179
00:53:05,924 --> 00:53:08,400
(tense music)

1180
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,280
- I think at that point
we worked out that,

1181
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,347
they weren't to
be reasoned with.

1182
00:53:13,347 --> 00:53:15,090
(tense music)

1183
00:53:15,090 --> 00:53:16,950
It was about seven
in the morning.

1184
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:20,550
I finally, you know, crawled
up the stairs into my bed,

1185
00:53:20,550 --> 00:53:23,880
and I put my head
down on the pillow.

1186
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,470
And I realised at that point

1187
00:53:25,470 --> 00:53:28,590
that there was one person
that I hadn't heard from,

1188
00:53:28,590 --> 00:53:30,690
and it was someone that I'd
actually been speaking to,

1189
00:53:30,690 --> 00:53:33,822
in some depth for the
last couple of weeks.

1190
00:53:33,822 --> 00:53:35,970
(tense music)

1191
00:53:35,970 --> 00:53:37,845
I did this, I just went...

1192
00:53:39,373 --> 00:53:40,466
that motherfucker!

1193
00:53:40,491 --> 00:53:41,790
I was like,
he hasn't said anything.

1194
00:53:41,790 --> 00:53:42,930
I've heard people from things

1195
00:53:42,930 --> 00:53:44,340
that I hadn't
spoken to in two years.

1196
00:53:44,340 --> 00:53:46,247
Where the fuck
is Umbral Upsilon?

1197
00:53:46,247 --> 00:53:49,950
And I opened up to the
conversation tab with this guy,

1198
00:53:49,950 --> 00:53:51,899
username Umbral Upsilon.

1199
00:53:51,899 --> 00:53:54,106
(tense music)

1200
00:53:54,131 --> 00:53:56,714
(phone clings)

1201
00:53:57,527 --> 00:54:00,096
And all of the chat had
been deleted from his side,

1202
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:02,040
and I was like, immediately up.

1203
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,380
I was just like,
fuck this right? (laughs)

1204
00:54:04,380 --> 00:54:06,093
Back to my machine.

1205
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,261
(tense music)

1206
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,301
Just in a rage, like an
absolute second wind,

1207
00:54:12,750 --> 00:54:15,090
I'm sitting there going,
right, you,

1208
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:18,324
I'm finding everything
about you now.

1209
00:54:18,745 --> 00:54:21,245
(tense music)

1210
00:54:22,470 --> 00:54:24,270
So, this collaborator

1211
00:54:24,270 --> 00:54:27,030
had been speaking to
both Dillon and myself

1212
00:54:27,030 --> 00:54:29,052
for the last couple of weeks.

1213
00:54:29,052 --> 00:54:30,720
(tense music)

1214
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:33,660
- He was trying to make
a bot for the protocol,

1215
00:54:33,660 --> 00:54:36,990
to automate certain actions.

1216
00:54:36,990 --> 00:54:38,700
We were actually pretty
excited about that,

1217
00:54:38,700 --> 00:54:41,760
because having a
developer show interest

1218
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:46,359
in what you're working on, and
offer to help is pretty rare.

1219
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,320
- A couple of days
prior to the attack,

1220
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,880
he had been paid 2000 US
dollars as a half upfront,

1221
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,030
for producing this code,

1222
00:54:57,030 --> 00:54:59,460
and conversation
ceased at that point.

1223
00:54:59,460 --> 00:55:00,690
The assumption was that,

1224
00:55:00,690 --> 00:55:03,753
he was, just going off and
finishing writing his code.

1225
00:55:04,590 --> 00:55:06,660
Normally, you consider the idea

1226
00:55:06,660 --> 00:55:08,130
of someone who's
performing an attack

1227
00:55:08,130 --> 00:55:10,133
as just being a
faceless adversary.

1228
00:55:10,133 --> 00:55:12,390
(tense music)

1229
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:14,430
I think the moment
that I realised

1230
00:55:14,430 --> 00:55:17,160
that his side of the
conversation was gone,

1231
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:18,483
in my guts, I knew.

1232
00:55:19,620 --> 00:55:22,070
It's you, how do I prove it?

1233
00:55:22,070 --> 00:55:24,570
(tense music)

1234
00:55:27,270 --> 00:55:30,540
I started just talking to
people, asking questions,

1235
00:55:30,540 --> 00:55:33,450
and shortly thereafter
I received a message

1236
00:55:33,450 --> 00:55:35,190
from a white hat,

1237
00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:38,670
saying there's an address
that's tied to this account,

1238
00:55:38,670 --> 00:55:41,791
a Twitter user with
the handle ZetaZeroes.

1239
00:55:41,791 --> 00:55:44,730
(ominous music)

1240
00:55:44,730 --> 00:55:46,290
This is our first
point of contact,

1241
00:55:46,290 --> 00:55:49,353
that's demonstrably
connected to the attack.

1242
00:55:50,340 --> 00:55:52,020
I didn't think through,

1243
00:55:52,020 --> 00:55:54,180
really what it was
that I'd sent him,

1244
00:55:54,180 --> 00:55:56,200
because I was exhausted.

1245
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,867
(ominous music)

1246
00:56:00,300 --> 00:56:02,850
I just wanted to
appeal to him to say,

1247
00:56:02,850 --> 00:56:05,340
you know, well done, there
should be a bounty for this,

1248
00:56:05,340 --> 00:56:08,130
but it should not be the entire
amount that you've stolen,

1249
00:56:08,130 --> 00:56:11,790
these are not Indexed
Finance's funds to give,

1250
00:56:11,790 --> 00:56:13,362
they belong to the user.

1251
00:56:14,850 --> 00:56:17,430
- We told him if
he took 10%

1252
00:56:17,430 --> 00:56:18,630
and sent the rest back,

1253
00:56:18,630 --> 00:56:21,900
we, the team aren't gonna
come after you any further.

1254
00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:24,508
He would've made $1.6 million.

1255
00:56:24,532 --> 00:56:26,003
(ominous music)

1256
00:56:26,970 --> 00:56:28,836
He did not take that offer.

1257
00:56:31,710 --> 00:56:35,580
- Over the next day or so, we
started digging a lot harder,

1258
00:56:35,580 --> 00:56:38,070
and we started
gathering a lot more clues,

1259
00:56:38,070 --> 00:56:40,650
as to the identity
of our attacker.

1260
00:56:40,650 --> 00:56:44,331
We updated the
terms of the bounty.

1261
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,142
(ominous music)

1262
00:56:47,190 --> 00:56:51,453
You have until 5:00 PM
tomorrow to return funds,

1263
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,632
or we will involve
law enforcement.

1264
00:56:54,632 --> 00:56:55,770
(ominous music)

1265
00:56:55,770 --> 00:56:58,506
Shortly after we
posted these updates,

1266
00:56:58,531 --> 00:57:01,200
the ZetaZeroes' Twitter
account became active.

1267
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:06,960
What followed was a storm
of about a dozen tweets,

1268
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,420
that were completely indignant.

1269
00:57:10,590 --> 00:57:12,090
You have been out-traded,

1270
00:57:12,090 --> 00:57:14,250
I have outmanoeuvred
you at every turn.

1271
00:57:14,250 --> 00:57:17,370
This is a skill issue,
tough luck.

1272
00:57:17,370 --> 00:57:19,110
A rephrasing of code is law.

1273
00:57:19,110 --> 00:57:21,810
If the code permitted
it, I'm allowed to do it,

1274
00:57:21,810 --> 00:57:23,771
and laws be damned.

1275
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,007
(tense music)

1276
00:57:26,340 --> 00:57:28,500
- When he quoted
the code is law idea,

1277
00:57:28,500 --> 00:57:30,900
and tried to garner
support about this,

1278
00:57:30,900 --> 00:57:32,220
just like back with the DAO,

1279
00:57:32,220 --> 00:57:34,885
there were people
who supported the idea.

1280
00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,660
(tense music)

1281
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:41,373
- People lionising him,

1282
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,192
and cheering him on for what
he'd done, calling him a king.

1283
00:57:48,438 --> 00:57:50,156
(soundtrack boom)

1284
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,480
- I personally felt the echoes
of the DAO calling back,

1285
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,580
and as if a ghost that we beat,

1286
00:57:56,580 --> 00:57:57,960
like put in an ancient tomb,

1287
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,290
and put it there in order
for it to stay hidden,

1288
00:58:01,290 --> 00:58:04,661
suddenly had come
up with a vengeance.

1289
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,757
(atmospheric music)

1290
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,060
- Code is law is
essentially saying,

1291
00:58:12,060 --> 00:58:13,410
that laws shouldn't exist,

1292
00:58:13,410 --> 00:58:15,900
but you have to
have consequences

1293
00:58:15,900 --> 00:58:18,360
for people hacking projects.

1294
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:20,310
You're never gonna have
software that's perfect.

1295
00:58:20,310 --> 00:58:23,130
You can't have something
that's separated from society,

1296
00:58:23,130 --> 00:58:25,751
where there are no laws, and,

1297
00:58:26,970 --> 00:58:29,817
where any action is permissible.

1298
00:58:31,830 --> 00:58:33,810
- Normally, when DeFi
acts happen,

1299
00:58:33,810 --> 00:58:36,310
the attacker effectively
disappears into the void.

1300
00:58:37,500 --> 00:58:39,270
Between our own
investigative work,

1301
00:58:39,270 --> 00:58:41,190
and the help of others
that were chipping in

1302
00:58:41,190 --> 00:58:42,960
with things that they knew,

1303
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:45,927
we had started noticing
a bunch of pieces.

1304
00:58:46,980 --> 00:58:49,920
We had lots of threads
to start pulling at,

1305
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,770
to find an identity.

1306
00:58:52,770 --> 00:58:54,450
The thinking here was,

1307
00:58:54,450 --> 00:58:58,020
pulling up threads and
the attacker will realise

1308
00:58:58,020 --> 00:58:59,460
that the game is up,

1309
00:58:59,460 --> 00:59:02,970
and be coerced
into returning funds.

1310
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:04,961
(tense music)

1311
00:59:05,250 --> 00:59:07,050
I was looking for
this conversation

1312
00:59:07,050 --> 00:59:09,810
with Umbral Upsilon, the guy
who I had been speaking to,

1313
00:59:09,810 --> 00:59:12,720
and I noticed that there's
been a name change.

1314
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,032
The user is now
known as Bogholder.

1315
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:17,600
(tense music)

1316
00:59:19,110 --> 00:59:21,210
- Someone saw
the name Bogholder,

1317
00:59:21,210 --> 00:59:22,830
and recognised this person,

1318
00:59:22,830 --> 00:59:25,890
and they are associated
with a different username.

1319
00:59:25,890 --> 00:59:27,703
That username was mtheorylord.

1320
00:59:28,740 --> 00:59:30,510
We just searched
for the username,

1321
00:59:30,510 --> 00:59:33,150
and looked for profiles
on different websites

1322
00:59:33,150 --> 00:59:35,580
and we found one on Wikipedia,

1323
00:59:35,580 --> 00:59:38,280
that had posted
some small changes

1324
00:59:38,280 --> 00:59:40,050
to various Wikipedia pages.

1325
00:59:40,050 --> 00:59:44,407
And one of those was to
a competition called,

1326
00:59:44,407 --> 00:59:45,660
"Reach for the Top".

1327
00:59:45,660 --> 00:59:49,575
It was a Canadian trivia show
for high-school students.

1328
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:51,770
(tense music)

1329
00:59:57,780 --> 01:00:00,690
The nature of this edit
that had been made,

1330
01:00:00,690 --> 01:00:02,610
was that, "Reach for the Top"

1331
01:00:02,610 --> 01:00:07,170
has a section called
Notable alumni.

1332
01:00:07,170 --> 01:00:09,330
It includes names
like Steven Harper,

1333
01:00:09,330 --> 01:00:11,760
previous Prime
Minister of Canada.

1334
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,870
And the edit that user
mtheorylord had made,

1335
01:00:15,870 --> 01:00:19,193
five years prior to this,
was a name.

1336
01:00:21,257 --> 01:00:23,042
Andean Medjedovic.

1337
01:00:24,780 --> 01:00:28,080
Next to his name was the
two word descriptor,

1338
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:30,480
notable mathematician.

1339
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:31,440
- I think it showed that

1340
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,200
this person was
hilariously arrogant

1341
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:35,790
and full of themselves,

1342
01:00:35,790 --> 01:00:38,640
to go and edit a
Wikipedia article

1343
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:40,920
to call themselves a
notable mathematician.

1344
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,493
So, at this point we started
getting pretty excited.

1345
01:00:45,678 --> 01:00:47,880
- I was like, I fucking
nailed him to a wall. (laughs)

1346
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:49,110
I genuinely at that point,

1347
01:00:49,110 --> 01:00:50,100
like I ran around the park,

1348
01:00:50,100 --> 01:00:53,040
because I was like,
yeah fuck yeah! (laughs)

1349
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:54,746
(tweet clings)

1350
01:00:55,290 --> 01:00:56,977
I posted a tweet,

1351
01:00:56,977 --> 01:00:59,169
"Are Canadian prisons any good?"

1352
01:00:59,169 --> 01:01:00,420
(tweet pings)

1353
01:01:00,420 --> 01:01:02,673
This was meant
as a message that,

1354
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:05,703
we knew where he was.

1355
01:01:07,230 --> 01:01:09,900
We searched the name
Andean Medjedovic,

1356
01:01:09,900 --> 01:01:12,150
we saw a search
result on Google,

1357
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:14,733
for, what was pretty
clearly a personal website.

1358
01:01:15,990 --> 01:01:20,990
It was down, but Google
Archives, most websites,

1359
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,830
you can still look
at the website,

1360
01:01:22,830 --> 01:01:24,513
and see what was
on it before.

1361
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:28,350
- It had an email
address for him,

1362
01:01:28,350 --> 01:01:31,380
and importantly at the bottom
it included a sentence,

1363
01:01:31,380 --> 01:01:36,030
that said that he'd also... was
interested in cryptocurrency,

1364
01:01:36,030 --> 01:01:37,880
and other decentralised
technologies.

1365
01:01:38,705 --> 01:01:40,865
Pro, one of the co-founders
of Indexed Finance

1366
01:01:40,890 --> 01:01:45,273
sent an email to this address,
saying, "You have been caught,

1367
01:01:46,140 --> 01:01:47,220
the game is up,

1368
01:01:47,220 --> 01:01:49,890
but I will offer you
50,000 US dollars,

1369
01:01:49,890 --> 01:01:51,633
in order to return the tokens."

1370
01:01:52,740 --> 01:01:56,370
The response that Pro
received was a line that said,

1371
01:01:56,370 --> 01:01:59,490
sounds like a plan,
send it to this address,

1372
01:01:59,490 --> 01:02:03,180
the address that we had
originally paid $2,000 for work,

1373
01:02:03,180 --> 01:02:05,010
performed on the arbitrage bot.

1374
01:02:05,010 --> 01:02:09,512
This connected Andean
Medjedovic to Umbral Upsilon.

1375
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,042
(slow dramatic music)

1376
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:15,780
- Now we had a direct link.

1377
01:02:15,780 --> 01:02:18,180
I couldn't really believe
that he had done that.

1378
01:02:18,180 --> 01:02:20,970
- It's surprising he
made a blunder like this.

1379
01:02:20,995 --> 01:02:23,644
Careless, sloppy, stupid.

1380
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:26,200
(ominous music)

1381
01:02:27,390 --> 01:02:30,000
At this point I am euphoric.

1382
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:34,074
This does not happen in
cryptocurrency hack cases.

1383
01:02:36,210 --> 01:02:38,220
It felt deeply
personal at this point.

1384
01:02:38,220 --> 01:02:40,350
He's holding the
assets that he's stolen,

1385
01:02:40,350 --> 01:02:42,200
but we are holding
his full identity.

1386
01:02:43,050 --> 01:02:45,930
At this point, I feel like
surely he's gonna give up.

1387
01:02:45,930 --> 01:02:48,243
I mean, we know who he is.

1388
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,660
We told him the
offer is expired,

1389
01:02:51,660 --> 01:02:55,050
and the attacker who, at
that point, we had not named,

1390
01:02:55,050 --> 01:02:57,330
had until midnight to return

1391
01:02:57,330 --> 01:03:00,450
100%, all of the funds
that he had taken,

1392
01:03:00,450 --> 01:03:02,700
or else we were going to
publish that information,

1393
01:03:02,700 --> 01:03:04,593
and reach out to
law enforcement.

1394
01:03:04,949 --> 01:03:06,929
(ominous music)

1395
01:03:07,895 --> 01:03:09,275
- At this point we are thinking

1396
01:03:09,300 --> 01:03:13,230
that the attacker is a highly
educated mathematician,

1397
01:03:13,230 --> 01:03:16,440
you know, mid-twenties,
intelligent.

1398
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:18,810
Sloppy, but intelligent.

1399
01:03:18,810 --> 01:03:22,020
The math work was impressive
that we found on his website.

1400
01:03:22,020 --> 01:03:24,750
It sounds very impressive
to be the kind of guy

1401
01:03:24,750 --> 01:03:27,840
who can do blindfolded chess,

1402
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:29,550
but we'd found him,

1403
01:03:29,550 --> 01:03:31,020
and the thinking
was at this point

1404
01:03:31,020 --> 01:03:33,073
that he would've just crumbled.

1405
01:03:34,470 --> 01:03:37,560
- This wasn't gonna be
nearly as bad as we thought.

1406
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:39,707
We'd be able to give
everyone their money back.

1407
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:42,177
(suspenseful music)

1408
01:03:42,990 --> 01:03:45,090
- The response came quickly

1409
01:03:45,090 --> 01:03:46,683
from the ZetaZeroes account.

1410
01:03:48,390 --> 01:03:52,083
- He reacted by complaining
that we were doxxing teenagers.

1411
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:54,870
Doxxing is when,

1412
01:03:54,870 --> 01:03:57,697
you publicly expose
someone's information.

1413
01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:01,800
- We thought,
this isn't a teenager,

1414
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:04,320
there's no way
this is a teenager.

1415
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:06,150
And I think a seed of doubt

1416
01:04:06,150 --> 01:04:07,650
had started to
appear at that point,

1417
01:04:07,650 --> 01:04:10,069
that, wait,
have we got this wrong?

1418
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:13,020
(tense music)

1419
01:04:14,571 --> 01:04:17,460
With a couple of hours to go
before that deadline passed,

1420
01:04:17,460 --> 01:04:21,450
we received a message that
said, the website's back up.

1421
01:04:21,450 --> 01:04:23,575
There was a link to a CV.

1422
01:04:25,650 --> 01:04:27,180
We opened it up,

1423
01:04:27,180 --> 01:04:29,460
and we are looking
at a date of birth,

1424
01:04:29,460 --> 01:04:32,234
that makes this
kid 18 years old.

1425
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,423
(dramatic music)

1426
01:04:35,580 --> 01:04:38,190
He was significantly
younger than we thought.

1427
01:04:38,190 --> 01:04:40,260
- On one hand I thought,

1428
01:04:40,260 --> 01:04:43,530
even if he's 18, he is
still very intelligent,

1429
01:04:43,530 --> 01:04:45,510
and he is doing hacks on

1430
01:04:45,522 --> 01:04:48,510
protocols for
millions of dollars,

1431
01:04:48,510 --> 01:04:51,510
and he's responsible
for his actions.

1432
01:04:51,510 --> 01:04:56,510
But, on the other hand, it
also means that he's a kid.

1433
01:04:56,580 --> 01:04:59,910
I wanted to give him
another opportunity

1434
01:04:59,935 --> 01:05:04,144
to get out of this, without
destroying his life.

1435
01:05:04,327 --> 01:05:05,367
(tense music)

1436
01:05:05,975 --> 01:05:08,555
I sent him a text message
to his phone number

1437
01:05:08,580 --> 01:05:10,387
that was on his resume.

1438
01:05:30,524 --> 01:05:32,044
(atmospheric music)

1439
01:05:32,134 --> 01:05:33,460
(messages clinging)

1440
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,440
- The message that
was received was,

1441
01:05:36,450 --> 01:05:38,400
effectively a series
of laughing emojis,

1442
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:39,873
and the words, good luck.

1443
01:05:41,070 --> 01:05:43,380
- Just seeing that
he was laughing at,

1444
01:05:43,380 --> 01:05:45,153
the attempt to
get him to back off.

1445
01:05:46,620 --> 01:05:47,940
- We were clearly
dealing with someone

1446
01:05:47,940 --> 01:05:50,760
who was not willing to
negotiate or return things,

1447
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:52,620
and so the options
that we had left,

1448
01:05:52,620 --> 01:05:55,833
armed with an identity, was to
take it to the legal system.

1449
01:05:55,949 --> 01:05:57,015
(message clinging)

1450
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,610
At the same time that we
were thinking about this,

1451
01:05:59,610 --> 01:06:01,680
Andean was clearly
thinking the same thing.

1452
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:05,520
There was one final rage
post that came from him,

1453
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:08,250
that said that he was willing
to defend himself to the death

1454
01:06:08,250 --> 01:06:09,930
on this point of code is law,

1455
01:06:09,930 --> 01:06:12,480
and that he was
looking to assemble

1456
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:16,323
the most elite team of crypto
lawyers to defend this.

1457
01:06:17,370 --> 01:06:20,098
- We spoke to our
attorney Jason Gottlieb.

1458
01:06:20,265 --> 01:06:21,287
(atmospheric music)

1459
01:06:21,630 --> 01:06:25,347
Jason emailed Andean, imploring
him to give the money back.

1460
01:06:29,495 --> 01:06:32,885
- A week later he
received a response email

1461
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:34,240
from another attorney,

1462
01:06:34,250 --> 01:06:35,545
(message clinging)
(atmospheric music)

1463
01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:39,363
who had referred to Mr.
Medjedovic as his client.

1464
01:06:40,260 --> 01:06:42,090
- His lawyer replied,

1465
01:06:42,090 --> 01:06:44,393
essentially saying that
that wasn't gonna happen.

1466
01:06:45,630 --> 01:06:47,700
- Over the course of the
next couple of weeks,

1467
01:06:47,700 --> 01:06:50,673
we set about filing
a case in Canada.

1468
01:06:51,510 --> 01:06:55,080
It would be one of the first
pieces of settled case law,

1469
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:59,013
that finally established once
and for all, code is not law.

1470
01:07:00,060 --> 01:07:03,510
Just because there was a
method for someone to walk in,

1471
01:07:03,510 --> 01:07:05,370
and take everything does
not necessarily mean

1472
01:07:05,370 --> 01:07:07,027
that was okay to do.

1473
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:09,240
(tense music)

1474
01:07:09,575 --> 01:07:12,245
The case after it was
filed was assigned

1475
01:07:12,270 --> 01:07:13,346
to a Canadian judge,

1476
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:15,208
Judge Justice Fred Myers.

1477
01:07:15,390 --> 01:07:18,120
What we needed to
do was to get the assets

1478
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,330
that had been stolen into the
custody of a neutral party.

1479
01:07:21,330 --> 01:07:23,370
- That's difficult in this case,

1480
01:07:23,370 --> 01:07:25,530
'cause unlike in
a normal lawsuit,

1481
01:07:25,530 --> 01:07:29,610
you can't just order a
bank to freeze the assets.

1482
01:07:29,610 --> 01:07:31,830
You need the
consent of the person

1483
01:07:31,830 --> 01:07:34,110
who has the assets already.

1484
01:07:34,110 --> 01:07:37,103
- Medjedovic did turn up to
a hearing with the judge.

1485
01:07:37,509 --> 01:07:39,039
(tense music)

1486
01:07:39,210 --> 01:07:41,190
He did not turn the camera on.

1487
01:07:41,190 --> 01:07:42,900
He did not speak.

1488
01:07:42,900 --> 01:07:44,250
But he was told by the judge

1489
01:07:44,250 --> 01:07:46,200
that if he did not
participate in the process,

1490
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,413
that he would be
held in contempt of court.

1491
01:07:48,800 --> 01:07:50,589
(tense music)

1492
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:54,264
One of the things that I
found I think most upsetting...

1493
01:07:56,910 --> 01:07:58,560
Oh, I dunno where
this came from.

1494
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,160
I think one of the things
I found most upsetting was,

1495
01:08:07,350 --> 01:08:09,600
looking at this guy's history,
and his research interests,

1496
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:10,920
and the work that he'd done,

1497
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:14,400
was the similarities
between the two of us.

1498
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:17,343
I was also a pure mathematician
at an undergraduate level,

1499
01:08:18,300 --> 01:08:20,640
and the kind of stuff that
he'd been doing research on

1500
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:22,410
was the same kind of stuff

1501
01:08:22,410 --> 01:08:25,680
that really tickled me when
I was an undergraduate.

1502
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:28,650
We both started doing
Ethereum development.

1503
01:08:28,650 --> 01:08:30,330
We share a middle name.

1504
01:08:30,330 --> 01:08:33,697
It's weird to call
someone an adversary,

1505
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:35,920
but I think that's
probably quite close

1506
01:08:35,940 --> 01:08:37,470
to what I'd call him.

1507
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,423
(gentle music)

1508
01:08:44,940 --> 01:08:47,580
The things that we know
about him educationally,

1509
01:08:47,580 --> 01:08:49,961
are very impressive.

1510
01:08:53,490 --> 01:08:54,615
- We found an article

1511
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:57,200
that was about him
when he was 13,

1512
01:08:57,210 --> 01:08:59,970
saying that he was about
to graduate high school.

1513
01:08:59,970 --> 01:09:03,030
He graduated high
school really early.

1514
01:09:03,030 --> 01:09:06,870
He finished his master's
shortly after that.

1515
01:09:06,870 --> 01:09:09,724
He was just very
advanced for his age.

1516
01:09:10,663 --> 01:09:11,783
(relaxed music)

1517
01:09:13,110 --> 01:09:15,030
- It wasn't the biggest hack.

1518
01:09:15,030 --> 01:09:16,920
There were bigger DeFi hacks,

1519
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:20,790
but it was the DeFi hack where
we actually caught the guy,

1520
01:09:20,790 --> 01:09:23,151
and he tried to
invoke code is law.

1521
01:09:23,861 --> 01:09:26,250
The code is law proponents
had finally found someone

1522
01:09:26,250 --> 01:09:28,110
who would take on the flag

1523
01:09:28,110 --> 01:09:29,760
and try to fight their fight,

1524
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:33,480
because, up until that point
it was mostly theoretical.

1525
01:09:33,480 --> 01:09:36,390
But now they had an actual
human who was identified,

1526
01:09:36,390 --> 01:09:38,580
and was trying to use their idea

1527
01:09:38,580 --> 01:09:41,460
as a legal defence in court.

1528
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,970
- He was issued with a
warrant for his arrest.

1529
01:09:44,970 --> 01:09:46,397
This could be
potentially the first time

1530
01:09:46,397 --> 01:09:49,500
that a DeFi hacker is taken
into the court of law,

1531
01:09:49,500 --> 01:09:53,162
to test whether code is
law, or whether law is law.

1532
01:09:53,162 --> 01:09:54,720
(relaxed music)

1533
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:56,580
- Justice Myers said that,

1534
01:09:56,580 --> 01:09:58,500
what Andean was doing was,

1535
01:09:58,500 --> 01:10:01,620
asserting a difference
between the law as it stands,

1536
01:10:01,620 --> 01:10:04,992
and his view of the
world, that code is law.

1537
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,840
- The court appointed people
to go to his parents' house

1538
01:10:11,850 --> 01:10:13,140
and look for any computers

1539
01:10:13,140 --> 01:10:14,703
that he might've
used in the attack,

1540
01:10:14,728 --> 01:10:16,887
to try to seize the assets.

1541
01:10:19,710 --> 01:10:21,180
- He had left the premises

1542
01:10:21,180 --> 01:10:23,250
and he had taken all of
his devices with him,

1543
01:10:23,250 --> 01:10:26,070
which effectively meant
that there was no option

1544
01:10:26,070 --> 01:10:27,270
to recover the assets.

1545
01:10:27,270 --> 01:10:29,520
But it also suggested
to us for the first time

1546
01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:31,360
that Andean is on the run.

1547
01:10:34,290 --> 01:10:36,690
We do not know where he is.

1548
01:10:36,690 --> 01:10:39,750
We cannot move forward.

1549
01:10:39,750 --> 01:10:42,965
He is in the wind, somewhere.

1550
01:10:45,480 --> 01:10:48,660
The protocol pretty
quickly crashed,

1551
01:10:48,660 --> 01:10:50,280
and,

1552
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:51,875
the project was dead.

1553
01:10:52,561 --> 01:10:54,179
(relaxed music)

1554
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:58,727
- It's an upsetting end

1555
01:10:58,860 --> 01:11:02,883
to a saga that's peaked
when we identified him.

1556
01:11:02,974 --> 01:11:04,555
Believed that this was it,

1557
01:11:04,555 --> 01:11:05,949
this was where we fully

1558
01:11:05,961 --> 01:11:08,100
established that
code is not law,

1559
01:11:08,100 --> 01:11:10,209
and once you're identified,
that's it.

1560
01:11:13,890 --> 01:11:15,900
- People are getting more scared

1561
01:11:15,925 --> 01:11:20,404
of the consequences
that code is law... has.

1562
01:11:20,575 --> 01:11:21,735
(tense music)

1563
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:23,970
- The DAO hack eight years ago,

1564
01:11:23,970 --> 01:11:26,583
is like the real,
first origin of this.

1565
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:29,640
The code creates the
rules and that's the law.

1566
01:11:31,860 --> 01:11:35,283
- DeFi projects
hold billions of dollars.

1567
01:11:36,480 --> 01:11:39,450
People lose money in
the tens of millions,

1568
01:11:39,450 --> 01:11:41,973
sometimes hundreds of millions.

1569
01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:46,890
- This was a
multi-million dollar exploit.

1570
01:11:46,890 --> 01:11:49,170
- Days later,
perhaps a week,

1571
01:11:49,170 --> 01:11:52,323
the next thing will be
attacked, and the wheel turns.

1572
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,110
- The size of
the rewards are insane.

1573
01:11:55,110 --> 01:11:58,470
We did become
desensitised over time.

1574
01:11:58,470 --> 01:12:01,133
- Today the biggest
hack on DeFi yet,

1575
01:12:01,133 --> 01:12:04,203
$600 million in assets stolen.

1576
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:08,160
- DeFi hackers see it as,

1577
01:12:08,160 --> 01:12:10,260
they have done nothing wrong.

1578
01:12:10,260 --> 01:12:11,283
Code is law.

1579
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:13,920
- So, the black
hat hackers are super villains

1580
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:15,791
in this whole story.

1581
01:12:15,815 --> 01:12:17,310
(dramatic music)

1582
01:12:17,310 --> 01:12:18,381
- We've had yet another

1583
01:12:18,393 --> 01:12:20,040
turbulent week
in the DeFi space,

1584
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:21,840
with four projects being hacked

1585
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:23,610
or exploited on the same day.

1586
01:12:23,610 --> 01:12:25,080
Let's dive in.

1587
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:27,330
- There are two
types of DeFi protocols,

1588
01:12:27,330 --> 01:12:28,770
ones that have been hacked,

1589
01:12:28,770 --> 01:12:31,380
and ones that are
going to be hacked.

1590
01:12:31,380 --> 01:12:33,000
- You can't stay
ahead of the hackers.

1591
01:12:33,000 --> 01:12:34,800
They're always going
to be smarter than you.

1592
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,180
They're always gonna
spot vulnerabilities

1593
01:12:36,180 --> 01:12:37,470
faster than you can.

1594
01:12:37,470 --> 01:12:40,800
- It's this ever
present phantom of attacks.

1595
01:12:40,800 --> 01:12:42,360
- We can never
actually be truly safe.

1596
01:12:42,360 --> 01:12:44,940
- Yeah, we need to put
in more and more energy,

1597
01:12:44,940 --> 01:12:46,410
just to stay alive.

1598
01:12:46,410 --> 01:12:48,390
- The hacker
can just say that,

1599
01:12:48,390 --> 01:12:51,930
they used the system
as it was created.

1600
01:12:51,930 --> 01:12:53,580
- The court argued
that the hackers

1601
01:12:53,580 --> 01:12:55,950
were not guilty of
receiving stolen goods,

1602
01:12:55,950 --> 01:12:57,480
because they interacted

1603
01:12:57,480 --> 01:12:59,820
with openly available
smart contracts,

1604
01:12:59,820 --> 01:13:02,640
according to how
the code was written.

1605
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:04,290
- Usually no
way to convince them

1606
01:13:04,290 --> 01:13:06,172
to give the money back.

1607
01:13:06,172 --> 01:13:08,922
(dramatic music)

1608
01:13:18,040 --> 01:13:19,651
- So, my name is Ogle.

1609
01:13:19,710 --> 01:13:21,916
It's a pseudonym I go by online.

1610
01:13:22,050 --> 01:13:24,420
I'm essentially like a
white hat recovery expert,

1611
01:13:24,420 --> 01:13:26,583
for people who've
had their money stolen.

1612
01:13:27,690 --> 01:13:30,720
When a protocol has been
stolen from, they call me in,

1613
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,440
to try and as a team work
to get that money back.

1614
01:13:34,440 --> 01:13:36,360
I can say that I've
meaningfully contributed

1615
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:40,593
to recovering $450 million
in the past year and a half.

1616
01:13:41,460 --> 01:13:43,110
My dad was a career criminal,

1617
01:13:43,110 --> 01:13:46,320
and he was in and out of
prison for most of my life,

1618
01:13:46,320 --> 01:13:50,220
and my background was one
that was surrounded by crime

1619
01:13:50,220 --> 01:13:51,300
and I didn't like that,

1620
01:13:51,300 --> 01:13:53,880
and so I feel like I'm righting
a wrong in some ways.

1621
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:55,530
(atmospheric music)

1622
01:13:55,530 --> 01:13:59,130
I love to fight, like a lot.

1623
01:13:59,130 --> 01:14:00,960
I like to like test
strength of mind,

1624
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:03,685
strength of arms,
whatever it is.

1625
01:14:03,685 --> 01:14:04,530
(hands scraping)

1626
01:14:04,530 --> 01:14:05,520
Whenever you're
doing any kind of

1627
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:06,750
white hat hacking or recovery,

1628
01:14:06,750 --> 01:14:10,170
you're really battling some of
the smartest people out there

1629
01:14:10,170 --> 01:14:12,626
and, you get to see
who's better.

1630
01:14:12,626 --> 01:14:14,100
(bright music)

1631
01:14:14,100 --> 01:14:15,540
DeFi protocols,

1632
01:14:15,540 --> 01:14:18,270
it seems to me, are hacked
virtually every day.

1633
01:14:18,270 --> 01:14:19,290
The way that people
thought about it was,

1634
01:14:19,290 --> 01:14:22,740
oh, I got stolen from,
move on to the next.

1635
01:14:22,740 --> 01:14:25,320
And I thought to myself,
does it have to be that way?

1636
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,290
Maybe there's an opportunity
to bust these guys.

1637
01:14:28,290 --> 01:14:30,120
If you are able to
identify who someone is,

1638
01:14:30,120 --> 01:14:32,190
there's pressure
you can put on them.

1639
01:14:32,190 --> 01:14:35,100
For lack of a better phrase,
you're manipulating people.

1640
01:14:35,100 --> 01:14:37,200
You're white hat hacking people.

1641
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:38,880
Once that started to work,

1642
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:41,580
I would just be thrown into
rooms every two or three days.

1643
01:14:41,580 --> 01:14:42,900
Hey, can you please help us?

1644
01:14:42,900 --> 01:14:44,850
We have an attacker, we
think we know where he is at,

1645
01:14:44,850 --> 01:14:46,050
but we don't know
how to talk to him,

1646
01:14:46,050 --> 01:14:47,070
we don't know how
to get the money back,

1647
01:14:47,070 --> 01:14:48,600
can you help us with this part?

1648
01:14:48,600 --> 01:14:50,670
We kept having successes.

1649
01:14:50,670 --> 01:14:52,020
The Curve Finance hack,

1650
01:14:52,020 --> 01:14:53,970
which was actually
four hacks in one,

1651
01:14:53,970 --> 01:14:56,880
which was almost $70 million,

1652
01:14:56,880 --> 01:14:58,470
and a lot of other ones

1653
01:14:58,470 --> 01:15:01,383
between the 25, 30,
$35 million range.

1654
01:15:02,370 --> 01:15:03,450
The largest single hack

1655
01:15:03,450 --> 01:15:05,100
that I've been
called in to help with,

1656
01:15:05,100 --> 01:15:07,290
was the Euler finance hack.

1657
01:15:07,290 --> 01:15:09,450
They were hacked by someone
who was able to steal,

1658
01:15:09,450 --> 01:15:11,610
almost $200 million
of their assets.

1659
01:15:11,610 --> 01:15:13,200
You know,
not like the biggest hack

1660
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:16,260
that's ever occurred in
crypto, but it's up there.

1661
01:15:16,260 --> 01:15:17,613
Top 10 or so.

1662
01:15:18,690 --> 01:15:21,120
We had enough information
that we could write a message

1663
01:15:21,120 --> 01:15:24,210
that would cue it in
the attacker's head,

1664
01:15:24,210 --> 01:15:25,530
oh wait,

1665
01:15:25,530 --> 01:15:27,360
they might know who I am.

1666
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:31,380
He felt like he bit off way
more than he could chew.

1667
01:15:31,380 --> 01:15:34,500
There wasn't a lot of sleeping,
there was a lot of worrying.

1668
01:15:34,500 --> 01:15:36,000
There was a lot of running.

1669
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:38,910
After a lot of communications
with the attacker,

1670
01:15:38,910 --> 01:15:41,703
they returned all of the
money to Euler finance.

1671
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:46,203
This was definitely an
historic return of money.

1672
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,400
The way that I try to
approach these situations,

1673
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:56,880
is in the spirit of the crypto
space being decentralised.

1674
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:58,650
I say, hey Mr. Hacker,

1675
01:15:58,650 --> 01:16:00,750
give all this money back
and you're gonna be clean.

1676
01:16:00,750 --> 01:16:01,620
You can walk away.

1677
01:16:01,620 --> 01:16:03,030
You can still brush your
teeth in the morning,

1678
01:16:03,030 --> 01:16:05,970
in your privacy of your
own home, no jail time.

1679
01:16:05,970 --> 01:16:07,350
No one likes the
government coming in

1680
01:16:07,400 --> 01:16:09,425
and dealing with things
in crypto generally.

1681
01:16:09,607 --> 01:16:11,957
(haunting music)

1682
01:16:13,350 --> 01:16:14,700
Code is law does make sense.

1683
01:16:14,700 --> 01:16:15,723
I mean, I get it.

1684
01:16:17,010 --> 01:16:19,230
The argument from
the point of view

1685
01:16:19,230 --> 01:16:21,540
of people who don't like
code is law is saying,

1686
01:16:21,540 --> 01:16:25,380
look, the spirit of the
code was not followed,

1687
01:16:25,380 --> 01:16:28,140
but the argument from the other
side is saying, maybe not,

1688
01:16:28,140 --> 01:16:30,540
but the letter of the code was,

1689
01:16:30,540 --> 01:16:32,403
'cause otherwise
I couldn't do it.

1690
01:16:33,390 --> 01:16:35,850
I actually think
it's a fair argument.

1691
01:16:35,850 --> 01:16:38,400
If you leave a
hundred dollar bill

1692
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:40,680
on a table and you walk away,

1693
01:16:40,680 --> 01:16:43,860
you also shouldn't be
surprised if someone steals it.

1694
01:16:43,860 --> 01:16:45,180
The fact that you screwed up

1695
01:16:45,180 --> 01:16:46,980
by leaving it there
is your problem.

1696
01:16:49,020 --> 01:16:50,790
- You might imagine
that a white hat

1697
01:16:50,790 --> 01:16:54,780
is somebody who is going
to find the black hat,

1698
01:16:54,780 --> 01:16:58,470
and then immediately
ring the police.

1699
01:16:58,470 --> 01:16:59,910
Decentralised finance,

1700
01:16:59,910 --> 01:17:03,750
it has a wild west aspect to it.

1701
01:17:03,750 --> 01:17:06,120
You can imagine you've
got a frontier town,

1702
01:17:06,120 --> 01:17:08,490
and the black hats and the
white hats are the outlaws

1703
01:17:08,490 --> 01:17:10,320
that are living on
the edge of the town.

1704
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,300
They're frontier people.

1705
01:17:12,300 --> 01:17:15,420
They see themselves as a
little bit outside of the law,

1706
01:17:15,420 --> 01:17:20,400
and their values are
rooted in decentralisation.

1707
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:24,052
So, they hate the sheriff more,
than they hate each other.

1708
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:26,440
(haunting music)

1709
01:17:26,760 --> 01:17:29,130
- The goal is not to
get them arrested.

1710
01:17:29,130 --> 01:17:31,290
The goal is not
to ruin their lives.

1711
01:17:31,290 --> 01:17:33,750
The goal is to get
the money back.

1712
01:17:33,750 --> 01:17:35,070
When you're going
after an attacker

1713
01:17:35,070 --> 01:17:37,770
and they don't believe
you know who they are,

1714
01:17:37,770 --> 01:17:39,270
there's a lot of grandiosity,

1715
01:17:39,270 --> 01:17:40,950
and they're like, screw you,

1716
01:17:40,950 --> 01:17:43,320
whatever, you can't do
anything to me.

1717
01:17:43,320 --> 01:17:45,660
Or whenever you
tell them their name,

1718
01:17:45,660 --> 01:17:48,270
it's like a switch
flips immediately,

1719
01:17:48,270 --> 01:17:49,570
and it happens every time.

1720
01:17:50,700 --> 01:17:51,898
Well, not every time.

1721
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:54,260
(haunting music)

1722
01:17:54,515 --> 01:17:56,225
I was not involved
in the recovery

1723
01:17:56,250 --> 01:17:57,270
for the Indexed Finance case,

1724
01:17:57,270 --> 01:17:59,070
but I watched it from afar.

1725
01:17:59,070 --> 01:18:00,483
It's just very atypical.

1726
01:18:01,595 --> 01:18:02,762
Even the strongest of people,

1727
01:18:02,787 --> 01:18:05,880
you have fear inside of
them that you can awaken,

1728
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:08,430
or you're just a psychopath,

1729
01:18:08,430 --> 01:18:09,960
and so you simply
don't feel the fear

1730
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:11,997
because you get off on the fact
that people are chasing you.

1731
01:18:11,997 --> 01:18:13,977
You get off on the fact that
people know who you are,

1732
01:18:13,977 --> 01:18:15,180
and they can't get you.

1733
01:18:15,180 --> 01:18:17,103
It becomes catch me if you can.

1734
01:18:18,270 --> 01:18:19,655
So, someone like Medjedovic,

1735
01:18:19,680 --> 01:18:22,685
this is a person
who's going to fight this

1736
01:18:22,710 --> 01:18:24,720
if they were to be caught.

1737
01:18:24,720 --> 01:18:27,725
You want to come to it prepared
if you're a prosecutor.

1738
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:30,840
(haunting music fades)

1739
01:18:32,120 --> 01:18:34,703
(gentle atmospheric music)

1740
01:18:39,510 --> 01:18:41,730
- It's been a year and a half,

1741
01:18:41,730 --> 01:18:44,100
since we last heard
anything about Medjedovic.

1742
01:18:44,100 --> 01:18:46,562
The court case
is still inactive.

1743
01:18:49,350 --> 01:18:52,020
There are other known attackers

1744
01:18:52,020 --> 01:18:54,750
that have been utilising
the code is law defence.

1745
01:18:54,750 --> 01:18:57,456
One of them is
Avraham Eisenberg.

1746
01:18:57,940 --> 01:18:59,725
(brooding music)

1747
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:02,823
- Avraham Eisenberg strikes
me as the person who

1748
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:05,965
to the fullest believes
that code is law.

1749
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:07,480
In the case of Mango Markets,

1750
01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:08,795
Avi was able to
do what he called

1751
01:19:08,820 --> 01:19:11,670
a highly profitable
trading strategy,

1752
01:19:11,670 --> 01:19:13,200
otherwise known as an exploit,

1753
01:19:13,200 --> 01:19:14,553
and was able to steal,

1754
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:17,163
or take, or,

1755
01:19:18,240 --> 01:19:21,607
legally remove, in his case
is what he considers it to be,

1756
01:19:21,607 --> 01:19:22,962
$110 million.

1757
01:19:26,070 --> 01:19:29,800
- Sometimes the code does
exactly what was intended.

1758
01:19:29,800 --> 01:19:33,210
It's just what was intended
isn't what anyone wanted.

1759
01:19:33,210 --> 01:19:34,043
Some selection of people

1760
01:19:34,043 --> 01:19:36,120
just don't like seeing
other people make money,

1761
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:37,177
is what it is.

1762
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:40,080
- It just always comes back
to this code is law thing,

1763
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:42,990
and the vast majority of
people get away with it,

1764
01:19:42,990 --> 01:19:46,440
and most people aren't even
that mad about it in crypto.

1765
01:19:46,440 --> 01:19:48,090
(brooding music)

1766
01:19:48,090 --> 01:19:50,017
- He put on his Twitter,

1767
01:19:50,017 --> 01:19:51,893
"What are they gonna do,
arrest me?"

1768
01:19:53,910 --> 01:19:55,983
I routinely deal with
law enforcement.

1769
01:19:57,300 --> 01:19:59,670
I remember hearing
from a couple of agents

1770
01:19:59,670 --> 01:20:02,139
who read that as a challenge.

1771
01:20:03,120 --> 01:20:05,737
He was surprised arrested
down in Puerto Rico,

1772
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:07,549
getting off of an aeroplane.

1773
01:20:09,210 --> 01:20:12,060
- These accusations,
if he is proven guilty

1774
01:20:12,060 --> 01:20:15,180
in the court of law, do carry
potential for prison time.

1775
01:20:15,180 --> 01:20:18,480
The deposition quoted
Eisenberg's own Twitter account,

1776
01:20:18,480 --> 01:20:22,230
in explaining how the
FBI tracked down his role

1777
01:20:22,230 --> 01:20:24,344
in this particular crime.

1778
01:20:27,817 --> 01:20:32,817
- Avraham Eisenberg represents
the first major case,

1779
01:20:32,915 --> 01:20:35,735
that US law enforcement
agencies see

1780
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:38,163
as an opportunity
to set precedent.

1781
01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:41,580
Their eyes are
on the bigger fish.

1782
01:20:41,580 --> 01:20:42,960
They're looking
for their Andeans,

1783
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:45,561
they're looking
for their Avrahams.

1784
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:48,703
(atmospheric music)

1785
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:53,040
(post beeps)

1786
01:20:53,046 --> 01:20:56,310
- So, I just found out
that KyberSwap was hacked,

1787
01:20:56,310 --> 01:20:57,501
for,

1788
01:20:58,380 --> 01:20:59,591
48 million.

1789
01:21:00,660 --> 01:21:04,230
Someone sent, roughly $2 million

1790
01:21:04,230 --> 01:21:08,130
to one of the addresses
that was under the control

1791
01:21:08,130 --> 01:21:10,226
of the Indexed hack, hacker.

1792
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:12,190
(atmospheric music)

1793
01:21:12,630 --> 01:21:16,800
- It would appear that
this is a move designed to

1794
01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:19,680
broadcast that
he's active again,

1795
01:21:19,680 --> 01:21:22,268
and he's just done
something else.

1796
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:24,833
(atmospheric music)

1797
01:21:28,200 --> 01:21:32,313
Yeah, it looks like,
Andean Medjedovic is back.

1798
01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:40,600
- He was aware when he made
the transfer to that address,

1799
01:21:40,620 --> 01:21:42,780
that he's gonna create
this strong connection

1800
01:21:42,780 --> 01:21:44,530
between the two hacks.

1801
01:21:44,530 --> 01:21:46,230
(gentle music)

1802
01:21:46,230 --> 01:21:48,530
He did it for the attention,
for the spotlight.

1803
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:55,160
If he's a good hacker, he
shouldn't get any attention.

1804
01:21:55,230 --> 01:21:56,913
That's what a good hacker is.

1805
01:21:57,900 --> 01:21:59,216
He is something else.

1806
01:21:59,391 --> 01:22:00,444
(post beeps)

1807
01:22:01,768 --> 01:22:04,351
(gentle music)

1808
01:22:08,070 --> 01:22:09,396
It does...

1809
01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:17,152
remind me that I made a mistake,
that bears heavily with me.

1810
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:20,183
(gentle music)

1811
01:22:20,730 --> 01:22:22,733
I could have done better.

1812
01:22:25,860 --> 01:22:29,230
He kind of needs to play
this out as it is right now,

1813
01:22:29,230 --> 01:22:32,373
being the bad guy
and keep doing exploits.

1814
01:22:33,360 --> 01:22:35,954
That's his identity right now.

1815
01:22:35,954 --> 01:22:37,590
(gentle music)

1816
01:22:37,590 --> 01:22:39,843
And if Indexed wasn't hacked,

1817
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:42,570
at all,

1818
01:22:42,600 --> 01:22:44,392
his life would be different.

1819
01:22:46,680 --> 01:22:48,153
My life would be different.

1820
01:22:49,176 --> 01:22:50,885
(gentle music)

1821
01:22:52,590 --> 01:22:56,310
- A message was
sent to the Kyber team,

1822
01:22:56,310 --> 01:22:58,137
and it's been a couple
of days since then

1823
01:22:58,137 --> 01:23:00,090
and there hasn't been any word.

1824
01:23:00,090 --> 01:23:02,703
And that's a certain
type of arrogance.

1825
01:23:03,780 --> 01:23:06,630
- They seem
to love the attention,

1826
01:23:06,630 --> 01:23:07,890
he just likes the chaos,

1827
01:23:07,890 --> 01:23:11,460
and just wants to tease them,

1828
01:23:11,460 --> 01:23:13,617
while the world looks on.

1829
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,800
♪ Oh God damn, ♪

1830
01:23:17,802 --> 01:23:21,074
♪ That Kyber
hacker's got balls ♪

1831
01:23:21,074 --> 01:23:23,981
♪ God damn, God damn ♪

1832
01:23:24,272 --> 01:23:26,304
- It's really frustrating to me,
because it makes you think

1833
01:23:26,329 --> 01:23:28,170
that nothing is safe and
this is the Wild West,

1834
01:23:28,170 --> 01:23:31,710
which is like the
total opposite of what

1835
01:23:31,710 --> 01:23:33,630
everybody that is
building in this field,

1836
01:23:33,630 --> 01:23:35,438
is trying to go for.

1837
01:23:36,160 --> 01:23:38,106
(gentle sombre music)

1838
01:23:38,430 --> 01:23:39,780
- He definitely
wasn't the smartest

1839
01:23:39,780 --> 01:23:41,880
when he left
clues the first time,

1840
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,660
but now he's
embracing that persona.

1841
01:23:45,080 --> 01:23:47,663
(gentle sombre music)

1842
01:23:50,580 --> 01:23:51,810
- Someone on Twitter posted

1843
01:23:51,810 --> 01:23:54,480
the KyberSwap
protocol had been hacked,

1844
01:23:54,480 --> 01:23:57,330
and I just said, if you
guys need help, let me know,

1845
01:23:57,330 --> 01:23:58,410
and that was it.

1846
01:23:58,410 --> 01:24:00,207
I found myself with the
founders of KyberSwap,

1847
01:24:00,207 --> 01:24:02,580
and a couple of
security experts,

1848
01:24:02,580 --> 01:24:05,370
trying to help them with
what to say to the attacker.

1849
01:24:05,370 --> 01:24:07,052
It became really confusing.

1850
01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:09,554
It's like, what in the...
who are we dealing with here?

1851
01:24:09,760 --> 01:24:11,520
- This is probably
the strangest message

1852
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:14,700
I've ever seen a hacker
send to a protocol.

1853
01:24:14,700 --> 01:24:16,290
- It is the wildest,

1854
01:24:16,290 --> 01:24:18,840
it is six out of six
on the unhinged scale.

1855
01:24:18,840 --> 01:24:20,217
- That's right.
(laughs)

1856
01:24:20,217 --> 01:24:24,240
- The Kyber hacker
went a step further,

1857
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:27,690
and is actually
demanding to take control

1858
01:24:27,690 --> 01:24:32,040
and ownership over
the Kyber protocol

1859
01:24:32,040 --> 01:24:34,890
and the company itself,

1860
01:24:34,890 --> 01:24:37,152
which is definitely a first.

1861
01:24:37,320 --> 01:24:38,739
(gentle sombre music)

1862
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:40,102
(post pings)

1863
01:24:40,212 --> 01:24:41,252
(tense music)

1864
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:44,430
- The guy essentially said,

1865
01:24:44,430 --> 01:24:46,110
I'm gonna take over the company,

1866
01:24:46,110 --> 01:24:48,330
the executive team,
you're all gone.

1867
01:24:48,330 --> 01:24:50,280
I'm gonna take care
of all the workers.

1868
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:55,080
He really thought this was
like a plausible response.

1869
01:24:55,650 --> 01:24:56,820
And even if the team did say,

1870
01:24:56,820 --> 01:24:58,860
okay, fair enough, you
can have the company,

1871
01:24:58,860 --> 01:25:01,006
that it wouldn't be
looked at as blackmail?

1872
01:25:01,006 --> 01:25:02,730
(tense music)

1873
01:25:02,730 --> 01:25:03,563
- This makes no sense.

1874
01:25:03,563 --> 01:25:05,504
This is not possible to
happen. Yet...

1875
01:25:06,312 --> 01:25:08,165
he plays this out
for his audience,

1876
01:25:08,190 --> 01:25:09,870
who are a lot of internet trolls

1877
01:25:09,894 --> 01:25:11,670
who would call him a hero,

1878
01:25:11,670 --> 01:25:14,722
and that code is law, is
what he's fighting for.

1879
01:25:16,380 --> 01:25:18,360
Nobody should be allowed to,

1880
01:25:18,360 --> 01:25:22,410
do so much harm
without any repercussions.

1881
01:25:22,410 --> 01:25:25,080
- It makes you wonder, are you
dealing with someone crazy?

1882
01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:27,330
They want to control everything,

1883
01:25:27,330 --> 01:25:29,070
and they feel like they
can control everything,

1884
01:25:29,070 --> 01:25:31,380
and they will not
ever be caught.

1885
01:25:31,380 --> 01:25:32,700
And maybe they won't,

1886
01:25:32,700 --> 01:25:34,620
maybe they won't, who knows?

1887
01:25:34,620 --> 01:25:36,419
But maybe they will.

1888
01:25:36,680 --> 01:25:39,263
(tense music)

1889
01:25:39,525 --> 01:25:40,521
- And I thought that,

1890
01:25:40,546 --> 01:25:43,470
the way that the next few years
would play out for my life

1891
01:25:43,470 --> 01:25:47,280
was legal wrangling,
going to court.

1892
01:25:47,280 --> 01:25:50,370
I thought that,

1893
01:25:50,370 --> 01:25:52,890
Medjedovic would
be in court first,

1894
01:25:52,890 --> 01:25:55,980
and that would
subsequently be precedent

1895
01:25:55,980 --> 01:25:58,500
for Eisenberg
to be put on trial.

1896
01:25:58,500 --> 01:26:00,360
And it looks like that's
actually flipping,

1897
01:26:00,360 --> 01:26:02,880
Medjedovic is probably
watching the Eisenberg case,

1898
01:26:02,880 --> 01:26:04,258
quite closely.

1899
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:07,467
(ominous music)

1900
01:26:10,470 --> 01:26:12,060
- The outcome
of the Avi Eisenberg case

1901
01:26:12,060 --> 01:26:14,610
is gonna be very
important I believe.

1902
01:26:14,610 --> 01:26:18,090
- Alleged Mango Markets
exploiter Avraham Eisenberg

1903
01:26:18,090 --> 01:26:19,770
is working to negotiate bail

1904
01:26:19,770 --> 01:26:23,640
following his first New York
court hearing, Thursday.

1905
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:25,050
- He's willing to put
a lot of resources

1906
01:26:25,050 --> 01:26:29,130
into defending himself to prove
his case that code is law.

1907
01:26:29,130 --> 01:26:31,345
If he does that,
this changes everything.

1908
01:26:31,520 --> 01:26:33,600
(tense music)

1909
01:26:34,320 --> 01:26:37,350
- We're beginning to see the end

1910
01:26:37,350 --> 01:26:39,420
of the code is law defence.

1911
01:26:39,420 --> 01:26:43,110
The naive belief that if
you argue code is law,

1912
01:26:43,110 --> 01:26:44,910
that this is somehow
going to save you

1913
01:26:44,910 --> 01:26:47,970
or rescue you from
the coming onslaught

1914
01:26:47,970 --> 01:26:50,790
of the United States government.

1915
01:26:50,790 --> 01:26:52,203
Andean should be scared.

1916
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:57,729
He can't really
escape from the story.

1917
01:26:58,400 --> 01:27:00,466
(dramatic music)

1918
01:27:01,290 --> 01:27:02,280
- Every so often,

1919
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:04,590
I'll get a message from
someone that I trust.

1920
01:27:04,590 --> 01:27:06,440
We believe he's in x
country at this point,

1921
01:27:06,465 --> 01:27:08,757
or he might be here,
he might be there.

1922
01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:11,845
I would bet that if he
finds something else

1923
01:27:11,885 --> 01:27:12,945
that has a vulnerability in it,

1924
01:27:12,970 --> 01:27:15,472
he is going to exploit
it for his own gain.

1925
01:27:16,440 --> 01:27:17,880
If you've done something twice,

1926
01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:19,937
and you haven't been caught,

1927
01:27:19,962 --> 01:27:22,537
what's to stop you
from doing it again?

1928
01:27:22,680 --> 01:27:24,600
(dramatic music)

1929
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:26,970
If I ever have to look him
in the eyes in a courtroom,

1930
01:27:26,970 --> 01:27:28,413
and then watch
him be sentenced,

1931
01:27:28,440 --> 01:27:30,720
I don't know how I'd feel.

1932
01:27:30,960 --> 01:27:32,870
(dramatic music)

1933
01:27:33,270 --> 01:27:35,673
I felt morally obliged
to chase this down.

1934
01:27:36,755 --> 01:27:39,845
It also opens a really
weird Pandora's box.

1935
01:27:39,870 --> 01:27:41,460
The genesis of
the idea for crypto

1936
01:27:41,460 --> 01:27:44,279
was an independent
financial network,

1937
01:27:44,279 --> 01:27:45,990
but my take of it, is that,

1938
01:27:45,990 --> 01:27:48,030
that means moving
away from banks.

1939
01:27:48,030 --> 01:27:49,830
It doesn't mean moving
away from the ecosystems,

1940
01:27:49,830 --> 01:27:52,590
but as we start
sentencing people,

1941
01:27:52,590 --> 01:27:55,010
it does feel like
something's getting lost.

1942
01:27:55,400 --> 01:27:57,900
(dramatic music)

1943
01:27:58,560 --> 01:27:59,940
- I'd like for him to be caught,

1944
01:27:59,940 --> 01:28:01,875
for him to understand

1945
01:28:01,900 --> 01:28:04,500
that he can't just do
these things with impunity.

1946
01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:07,580
(dramatic music)

1947
01:28:08,430 --> 01:28:11,220
I want this industry
to be taken seriously.

1948
01:28:11,220 --> 01:28:12,952
We need to have a culture that

1949
01:28:13,860 --> 01:28:16,320
doesn't have so
many elements where,

1950
01:28:16,320 --> 01:28:19,203
people are trying to
say that... code is law.

1951
01:28:21,330 --> 01:28:22,440
- I don't want this precedent.

1952
01:28:22,440 --> 01:28:24,930
We wanted to create
a parallel system,

1953
01:28:24,930 --> 01:28:28,140
and if we are going back
to the justice system,

1954
01:28:28,140 --> 01:28:29,850
we kind of lose all of that.

1955
01:28:29,850 --> 01:28:34,265
Code is law, is a way
to express that

1956
01:28:34,290 --> 01:28:37,323
we're creating our
own justice system.

1957
01:28:38,280 --> 01:28:39,840
We have this
decentralised system

1958
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:42,750
because we don't agree
with most of the laws

1959
01:28:42,750 --> 01:28:45,022
that already exist and
we wanna create our own.

1960
01:28:45,200 --> 01:28:47,600
If we go back and we accept,

1961
01:28:48,780 --> 01:28:49,773
a single,

1962
01:28:50,670 --> 01:28:54,420
or even a group of countries
that decide our fate,

1963
01:28:54,420 --> 01:28:56,670
we lose the initial values,

1964
01:28:56,703 --> 01:28:59,407
and ideas that made
us start everything.

1965
01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:01,492
(dramatic music fades)

1966
01:29:21,317 --> 01:29:23,325
(ominous music)

1967
01:30:29,320 --> 01:30:31,156
(gentle atmospheric music)