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Downloaded from
YTS.LT
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.LT
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There are five major bases
in the United States
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for the production of chemical
and biological weapons
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and research into them.
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Have there been any accidents?
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You have the incident at Dugway.
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On a Sunday, one Sunday,
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some sheep farmers noticed
that their sheep were dying.
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By Monday, 6000 had died.
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They've been testing
nerve gas there since the '60s.
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Something went wrong.
An Air Force plane
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had 40 gallons of nerve gas dyed red.
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It blew over toward Salt Lake City.
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What about your family?
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Have they had any ill effects from this?
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Well, I don't know
whether it's from this or not.
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We all had a stomach flu Saturday
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and was vomiting
quite a bit all night long.
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Whether it's related or not,
it kind of spooks you.
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Medical, veterinarian
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and other technical personnel
of Dugway Proving Ground
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are in the field investigating
the cause of this problem.
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At this time,
it would be purely speculative
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to attempt to fix a specific
cause of death of the sheep.
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I don't care what the Army says.
I investigated it,
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um, for a magazine article I did,
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and it was nerve gas
that killed the sheep.
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And the Army wants to mess around,
but it was nerve gas.
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Everybody says that off the record
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and nobody's willing to say,
"Well, you know,
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the Army's lying through its teeth."
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All right.
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Come on.
Come on, just do it right.
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It says,
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"Hersh seems to know a great deal
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about what they were investigating.
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But it's okay, boss.
He's not aware of the cover-up."
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Pretty amazing.
I didn't see this until about a year ago.
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- All right. Showtime.
- All right.
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What do you want to do?
You've been filming all of this, right?
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We'd love to talk about sources.
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Let's put it this way.
You'd love to talk about sources
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and I'd love not to talk about sources.
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It isn't necessarily specific sources.
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Types of people you get?
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We already went through
some of the people I get.
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And I looked at the pads last night
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and the names are all over them.
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I never in my...
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this is all supposed to be after death.
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Sy, we're not exposing
any of these people.
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Some of these people
may be alive, you understand?
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And a lot of them hated my guts
and still talked to me.
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And why do you think
they liked meeting with you?
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I don't know.
If you work in the secret world,
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and there's some guy out there
pounding away
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and getting in there,
you know, why not talk to me?
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I don't know, I don't know. I don't...
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You know, I don't psychoanalyze
those who talk to me.
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Just like I don't psychoanalyze myself,
thank God.
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Which you want me to do, I know.
But I'm not going to.
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Not gonna go there.
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Let's see,
I'm thinking of some people.
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Here's somebody who worked for Kissinger.
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And then here's...
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Here's a CIA woman.
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It's complicated to know who to trust.
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You know, I barely trust you guys.
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I've learned not to worry too much
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about what others think.
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Because I was always writing stories
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that got certain people mad.
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There's a history of America
that's so hard to write.
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There always is another level.
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My job as a newspaper reporter
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is to find out secrets and facts.
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If that's what...
if that's what the issue is.
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And you publish them.
Why do you publish them?
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We publish them knowing
we're violating the rules
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and the laws,
and we're breaking national security.
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It's top-secret information...
above top-secret...
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because we think
there's an outstanding reason.
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We think there's a story here
of officials with responsibility
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not conducting their affairs correctly.
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And that's the issue I'm trying to make.
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And there shouldn't be
any bar on the press, theoretically,
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to publish anything we want,
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because that happens to be the way
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the Constitution
and the Bill of Rights was set up.
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When we get in a contest of any kind,
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American people like to rise like this.
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And they like for the opposition
to go down like this.
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{\an8}Now that--
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{\an8}that's not the kind of
war we're fighting in Vietnam.
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I think we're moving more like this.
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And I think they're moving more like this
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instead of straight up and straight down.
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We are making progress.
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We are pleased with the results
that we're getting.
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We are inflicting greater losses
than we're taking.
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You know, the Pentagon is a strange place.
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I mean, you get there
and you get your cup of coffee
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and you shoot the fat,
you read the papers.
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Around 10:30, they come
and give you a little briefing.
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You file a little something off that.
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You know, these guys get paid
an awful lot of money
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for doing things like
listening to the news conference
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and waiting an hour
till the transcript's typed up,
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and then writing a 500-word story off it.
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That's what they do all day for a living.
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That's not very much.
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I think what you have in America
is not so much censorship,
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but self-censorship by the press.
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When I was at the Pentagon for the AP,
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instead of going to lunch
with my colleagues,
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I would go find young officers.
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You know, talk a little football,
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get to know them.
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I had been in the Army.
I was in the Army reserves.
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Eventually,
Army guys would just start saying,
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"Well, you know,
it's murder incorporated there."
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What? I said, "What do you mean?"
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I, as President of this country,
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will lay on the table
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the schedule
for the withdrawal of all of our...
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There's a lot of brainwashing
going around.
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And, you know, a lot of people
making decisions
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about what people
should hear or listen to.
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And we are in a stage
of open murder in Vietnam.
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I was generally, um,
feeling useless in a sense.
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I had just a sense of unease
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about where I was
and where the war was.
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There was this big story
that seemed impossible.
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There's something called the truth.
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There was just
this massive truth out there,
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and there was just...
I didn't see a way to get to it,
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and I worried about it.
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I mean, I thought about that stuff.
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After a fight with the editor,
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I quit the AP.
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My wife Liz and I were married with a kid
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and not much money.
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I began to freelance a lot.
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One day I get a call
from a guy I didn't know
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and I said, "What's up?"
He said, "There's a terrible,
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there's a terrible atrocity in Vietnam
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that they're covering up."
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It was murky.
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He described it as a GI had gone nuts
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and shot up a lot of people.
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He didn't know much about it,
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but the Army was in a panic about it.
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I had no name. I knew nothing.
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I went to the Pentagon a couple times,
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and there was one colonel I liked a lot.
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And I bump into the colonel,
and now he's got a one star.
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I stop him, and we said,
"Hi, you know, gee,
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we haven't seen each other in years."
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I said, "What's with the knee?"
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He said, "Oh, I caught a bullet."
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I said, "Oh, my God,
you shot yourself in the knee
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to become a general
and get a medal, right?"
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He laughed and he said,
"Go eff yourself."
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We kept on walking.
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So I said, "So what are you doing now?"
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He said,
"I'm working for the chief of staff."
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"Westmoreland?" He said, "Yes."
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And I said, "What do you know
about some guy
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shooting up a village?"
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And he said, "Sy, let me tell you,
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that guy, Calley,
I hope he goes to hell."
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Whatever you said.
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Calley? I had a name.
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Of course I was spelling it wrong.
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But eventually, I found
a clip from The New York Times,
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and there was a little square
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that a lieutenant named
William L. Calley Jr.
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was being held for manslaughter.
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And Calley, Calley, right?
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I found out he had a lawyer named Latimer.
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I called him up and I said,
"Hey, my name is Hersh."
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And I said, "You know, I'm
on a flight to the West Coast
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that stops in Salt Lake.
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Is it okay if I stop in your office
and say hello?"
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He said, "Sure, come on by."
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You know, that wasn't the way it was.
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I just wanted to be casual about it.
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And I got to his office
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and he pulled out a piece of paper.
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There's a charge sheet.
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Lieutenant Calley was charged
with killing 109 people.
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He had the paper in front of him,
upside down.
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I said to myself,
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you're going to continue a conversation
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and you're going to pretend
to be taking notes,
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and you're going to write
almost letter by letter
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as much as you can.
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So I've got dynamite.
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So I decided I had to go find Calley.
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And I flew to Fort Benning.
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I got this ratty suit,
probably my wedding suit.
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I'm wearing the same clothes for days.
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I got there early in the morning.
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I finally found him at midnight
the same day by sheer luck.
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They put Calley into the housing
for colonels and generals.
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It's the last place I was looking.
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He was so different from what I wanted.
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I wanted to see a monster.
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And he starts telling me
a series of lies about,
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"It was a firefight,
and there were a lot of enemy there.
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Nobody knew who anybody was.
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And all I was doing my job
protecting my troops,
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and yes,
I'm sure civilians were killed,
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but they were trying to kill us."
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And he said, "My captain,
Ernest Medina, he's like me.
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He's going through an investigation.
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He'll tell you."
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He picks up the phone and he says,
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"Captain, I'm here
with a reporter from Washington.
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And why don't you tell him
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I was just following orders on all this?"
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00:16:26,291 --> 00:16:28,625
And Medina says, "I don't know
what you're talking about,"
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and slams the phone.
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And Calley gives me this look like
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maybe... maybe I'm the fall guy.
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Sy had tried to sell it
to a number of magazines.
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Nobody would touch it.
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Finally, he handed it to me and said,
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"Don't fuck it up."
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00:17:06,541 --> 00:17:09,250
And I spend the next nine hours
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cold calling every managing editor
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of every newspaper in America
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and pitching my little heart out.
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00:17:19,791 --> 00:17:21,458
Sy, last week you broke a story
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about an Army lieutenant
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who is accused of murdering
109 Vietnamese civilians.
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00:17:27,541 --> 00:17:29,833
Where did it first break into print?
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00:17:29,916 --> 00:17:31,875
The Chicago Sun-Times, 5:30 on the street,
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at 6:30 Washington time.
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That was your story, the Dispatch story.
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Right. Right.
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And then it was in the first edition
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of about, as I said, about 30 papers.
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I think it takes sort
of a non-establishment approach.
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I talked to LIFE who had said
no, they weren't interested.
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LOOK, they weren't interested.
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And that's when David Obst
took over, of Dispatch.
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He assured me
he could get this paper
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00:17:50,916 --> 00:17:52,500
in the front pages intact.
251
00:17:54,166 --> 00:17:57,666
I'm not on anybody's fan club
in the Pentagon these days.
252
00:17:57,750 --> 00:18:02,833
They tried to keep it secret.
I broke that game up.
253
00:18:22,208 --> 00:18:23,458
The Pentagon's view of this
254
00:18:23,541 --> 00:18:25,833
is that Calley is some sort of a madman.
255
00:18:25,916 --> 00:18:27,458
My hunch is he's not a madman.
256
00:18:27,541 --> 00:18:29,375
And it raises a very real question,
257
00:18:29,458 --> 00:18:31,916
were there really orders to
shoot everything in the village?
258
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,000
And if so,
is this being done all the time?
259
00:18:35,083 --> 00:18:37,458
We're with you, Calley!
260
00:18:43,958 --> 00:18:45,750
There was more.
261
00:18:46,333 --> 00:18:47,458
There had to be more,
262
00:18:47,541 --> 00:18:50,000
and I couldn't figure out
where to go.
263
00:18:50,083 --> 00:18:52,541
The Army wasn't going to help me,
that's for sure.
264
00:18:53,708 --> 00:18:55,666
Oh, I didn't turn off my phone.
I'm so sorry.
265
00:18:55,750 --> 00:18:57,291
No, no, no. Okay.
266
00:18:58,250 --> 00:19:00,416
Let me just say this. The only
thing I called you about is,
267
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,375
I said the warning came too from Iran,
268
00:19:02,458 --> 00:19:03,750
but it went through Saudi Arabia.
269
00:19:03,833 --> 00:19:05,541
But I don't think that's important.
270
00:19:05,625 --> 00:19:08,416
You said, "Presumably from Iran."
271
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:10,750
Well, it was from Iran,
but it was through the Saudis.
272
00:19:10,833 --> 00:19:12,666
But it's okay. It's fine.
That's good enough.
273
00:19:12,750 --> 00:19:14,500
We don't have to change it.
274
00:19:16,375 --> 00:19:19,625
Goodbye, goodbye.
Trying to say goodbye. Goodbye.
275
00:19:20,791 --> 00:19:23,708
He said, "You don't want to
give away too much."
276
00:19:23,791 --> 00:19:24,916
So here's what happened.
277
00:19:29,416 --> 00:19:33,416
We go back to my house on McComb Street
278
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:35,791
and Sy's reading The Washington Post
279
00:19:35,875 --> 00:19:38,958
and he sees a small little story
buried in there
280
00:19:39,041 --> 00:19:42,000
about a kid named Ron Ridenhour
281
00:19:42,083 --> 00:19:46,125
who claims that he had told
the Army about the massacre.
282
00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:49,750
{\an8}Ridenhour, eight months earlier,
283
00:19:49,833 --> 00:19:52,666
{\an8}wrote a letter, he sent it
to 30 members of Congress,
284
00:19:52,750 --> 00:19:54,958
{\an8}the chairman of the Joint Chiefs,
all the generals,
285
00:19:55,041 --> 00:19:57,375
{\an8}and to the White House,
to the President,
286
00:19:57,458 --> 00:19:59,750
{\an8}about what he knew was a dark deed.
287
00:20:01,875 --> 00:20:04,166
So I went home to pack my bag.
288
00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:05,208
Had to borrow money,
289
00:20:05,291 --> 00:20:07,666
and took a plane to California
to see him.
290
00:20:12,666 --> 00:20:15,500
Specifically, they told me
that they had seen
291
00:20:16,833 --> 00:20:19,375
individuals, individual soldiers,
292
00:20:19,458 --> 00:20:21,041
and some of the officers
293
00:20:21,125 --> 00:20:22,291
going through the village,
294
00:20:22,375 --> 00:20:23,750
and as they swept through the village,
295
00:20:23,833 --> 00:20:26,750
if there were people standing
by the side of the trail,
296
00:20:26,833 --> 00:20:28,291
through the village or in the village,
297
00:20:28,375 --> 00:20:30,333
that they just gunned them down,
that they shot them,
298
00:20:30,416 --> 00:20:32,166
they saw them, these people shot,
299
00:20:32,250 --> 00:20:34,458
uh, with no provocation.
300
00:20:34,541 --> 00:20:36,208
I felt that I had to take some action.
301
00:20:36,291 --> 00:20:37,583
I had to do something.
302
00:20:37,666 --> 00:20:40,625
I couldn't just rest with this knowledge
303
00:20:40,708 --> 00:20:42,541
for the rest of my life. I couldn't.
304
00:20:42,625 --> 00:20:44,333
I couldn't live with myself if I did.
305
00:20:47,583 --> 00:20:49,750
Ridenhour gave me a company roster,
306
00:20:50,625 --> 00:20:52,916
and he gave me the names of two people
307
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,625
who would talk to me.
308
00:20:54,708 --> 00:20:55,875
One was a young man
309
00:20:55,958 --> 00:20:57,583
who was a Mormon
that lived in Utah.
310
00:20:57,666 --> 00:20:59,333
His name was Michael Terry.
311
00:21:00,125 --> 00:21:02,375
So I went up there, I found him,
I went up that night.
312
00:21:02,958 --> 00:21:05,375
His line was, it was "a Nazi-type thing".
313
00:21:11,041 --> 00:21:14,166
The second person
that Ridenhour had told me about
314
00:21:14,250 --> 00:21:16,041
was Michael Bernhardt.
315
00:21:16,958 --> 00:21:18,833
I met him at Fort Dix.
316
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:23,291
It would have been impossible
to screw up that story.
317
00:21:23,875 --> 00:21:28,250
All you had to do was
get out of the way of the story.
318
00:21:28,333 --> 00:21:32,333
You had notes from Terry.
You had notes from Bernhardt.
319
00:21:32,416 --> 00:21:35,250
Just let their voice be the story.
320
00:22:01,333 --> 00:22:02,791
What were your orders?
321
00:22:02,875 --> 00:22:06,875
Prior to the operation,
the C.O.'s order was,
322
00:22:07,708 --> 00:22:10,375
uh, to destroy the village
and its inhabitants.
323
00:22:10,458 --> 00:22:14,583
Did you think the people
in the village were Viet Cong?
324
00:22:14,666 --> 00:22:17,583
Uh, some of the people
in the village,
325
00:22:17,666 --> 00:22:18,791
you say people in the village,
326
00:22:18,875 --> 00:22:20,791
some of the people
in the village, uh,
327
00:22:22,166 --> 00:22:23,791
weren't old enough to walk yet.
328
00:22:23,875 --> 00:22:25,833
I don't see how
they could be Viet Cong.
329
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:34,041
{\an8}There was a great reaction of people
330
00:22:34,125 --> 00:22:36,000
not wanting to believe it.
331
00:22:36,958 --> 00:22:39,875
Being angry at us
as being the messengers.
332
00:22:42,166 --> 00:22:44,625
{\an8}Nobody wanted to know
333
00:22:44,708 --> 00:22:47,333
{\an8}that the United States was the bad guy.
334
00:22:58,583 --> 00:23:02,208
Recently, a few individuals
involved in serious incidents
335
00:23:02,291 --> 00:23:04,416
{\an8}have been highlighted in the news.
336
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,750
Some would have
these incidents
337
00:23:07,833 --> 00:23:10,416
reflect on the Army as a whole.
338
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:16,458
They are, however,
the actions of a pitiful few.
339
00:23:16,541 --> 00:23:20,750
But the Army as an institution
should never be put on trial.
340
00:23:22,791 --> 00:23:25,000
I was trying to put together
what happened.
341
00:23:25,083 --> 00:23:28,000
What the hell happened?
So that was my goal.
342
00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:30,750
And I kept on.
I kept on finding people.
343
00:23:31,458 --> 00:23:34,041
I found a lot of people
that talked to me an awful lot.
344
00:23:34,125 --> 00:23:36,333
Say more. What do you mean? What happened?
345
00:23:36,416 --> 00:23:41,416
How did it happen? Wha-- How--
The descent into madness.
346
00:23:53,833 --> 00:23:54,875
You're getting me
347
00:23:54,958 --> 00:23:57,125
to think about things
I don't want to think about.
348
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:01,875
I was looking for this kid
349
00:24:01,958 --> 00:24:04,125
who had his foot blown off,
Paul Meadlo.
350
00:24:05,916 --> 00:24:08,333
He lived in this corner of Indiana.
351
00:24:09,125 --> 00:24:12,416
It was a farm.
An old run-down farm.
352
00:24:14,041 --> 00:24:17,125
And a very southern lady came out,
353
00:24:17,708 --> 00:24:19,333
and I said, "I'm here to see Paul."
354
00:24:19,416 --> 00:24:20,791
I said, "I'm a journalist.
355
00:24:20,875 --> 00:24:23,625
And I wanted to talk about
what happened in the Army."
356
00:24:24,208 --> 00:24:25,208
And then she said this line
357
00:24:25,291 --> 00:24:28,041
that will stay in my head
the rest of my life.
358
00:24:28,125 --> 00:24:31,583
She said, "I gave them--"
in a bitter voice--
359
00:24:31,666 --> 00:24:34,708
"I gave them a good boy, and
they sent me back a murderer."
360
00:24:39,375 --> 00:24:40,666
When he came back,
361
00:24:41,250 --> 00:24:44,750
he was just a-stuttering and I said,
362
00:24:44,833 --> 00:24:46,250
"Well, what makes you do that?"
363
00:24:46,333 --> 00:24:50,083
And he said,
"Mom, I have went through hell."
364
00:24:51,541 --> 00:24:53,166
I go to see Paul.
365
00:24:53,250 --> 00:24:55,833
Then I said, "So what happened?"
And then he started just...
366
00:24:58,041 --> 00:25:00,416
Killing, murder, killing, expiation.
367
00:25:01,083 --> 00:25:04,250
And, uh, straight as you can make it.
368
00:25:13,541 --> 00:25:16,541
Sy calls me, and he says,
369
00:25:16,625 --> 00:25:19,500
"We've got the front-page story
of the world."
370
00:25:25,416 --> 00:25:29,333
So I cold-call CBS Evening News,
371
00:25:29,875 --> 00:25:32,333
and then I did something
that you're not supposed to do.
372
00:25:32,416 --> 00:25:34,833
But I didn't know at the time you weren't.
373
00:25:34,916 --> 00:25:37,125
I said, "We need money for it."
374
00:25:37,208 --> 00:25:38,958
He says, "How much do you want?"
375
00:25:39,541 --> 00:25:43,416
I had no idea.
I blurted out, "$10,000."
376
00:25:44,541 --> 00:25:47,125
There's a pause. He says, "Deal."
377
00:25:55,333 --> 00:25:57,666
Mike Wallace is assigned
to do the interview.
378
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:59,458
Mike talks to him
for two minutes and says,
379
00:25:59,541 --> 00:26:00,833
"Let's get him in a room right now."
380
00:26:00,916 --> 00:26:02,375
And they start taping it.
381
00:26:02,916 --> 00:26:05,541
How many people did you round up?
382
00:26:05,625 --> 00:26:07,833
Well, there was about 40, 45 people
383
00:26:07,916 --> 00:26:09,666
that we gathered in a,
384
00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:12,458
in, like I say, uh,
the center of the village.
385
00:26:12,541 --> 00:26:14,333
What kind of people?
Men, women, children?
386
00:26:14,416 --> 00:26:15,708
Men, women, children.
387
00:26:15,791 --> 00:26:17,125
- Babies?
- Babies.
388
00:26:17,875 --> 00:26:21,541
And, we all huddled them up,
made them squat down.
389
00:26:22,541 --> 00:26:23,791
And, uh...
390
00:26:24,875 --> 00:26:26,583
Lieutenant Calley came over and said,
391
00:26:26,666 --> 00:26:28,625
you know what to do with them,
don't you?
392
00:26:28,708 --> 00:26:30,166
And, I said, yes.
393
00:26:30,250 --> 00:26:33,750
So I took it for granted that
he just wanted us to watch 'em,
394
00:26:34,833 --> 00:26:38,833
and, he left and came back about
ten or fifteen minutes later,
395
00:26:39,666 --> 00:26:42,416
and said, how come
you ain't killed 'em yet?
396
00:26:43,375 --> 00:26:46,041
And, I told him that,
397
00:26:46,708 --> 00:26:48,125
I didn't think you wanted us to kill 'em.
398
00:26:48,208 --> 00:26:49,750
I thought you wanted us to guard them.
399
00:26:49,833 --> 00:26:51,875
He said, no, he wanted them dead.
400
00:26:52,541 --> 00:26:55,500
So he stepped back
about ten, fifteen feet,
401
00:26:55,583 --> 00:26:57,375
and he started shooting them,
402
00:26:57,458 --> 00:26:59,125
and he told me to start shooting them.
403
00:26:59,208 --> 00:27:03,125
So I started shooting and fired
about four clips into the group.
404
00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:06,833
- Men, women and children.
- Men, women and children.
405
00:27:06,916 --> 00:27:08,708
- And babies.
- And babies.
406
00:27:10,750 --> 00:27:12,583
But how do you shoot babies?
407
00:27:14,166 --> 00:27:16,791
I don't know,
it's just one of them things.
408
00:27:21,458 --> 00:27:25,250
Hell no, we won't go!
Hell no, we won't go!
409
00:27:25,333 --> 00:27:31,166
Hell no, we won't go!
Hell no, we won't go!
410
00:27:37,333 --> 00:27:40,291
The Army photographer involved,
Ron Haeberle,
411
00:27:40,375 --> 00:27:42,000
he had two cameras.
412
00:27:42,708 --> 00:27:46,250
For the Army, he ended up using
the black-and-white camera.
413
00:27:49,250 --> 00:27:51,041
But he never told
anybody about
414
00:27:51,125 --> 00:27:53,250
having another set
of color film.
415
00:28:03,291 --> 00:28:06,833
After my first story broke, he sold them.
416
00:28:28,875 --> 00:28:31,833
It was all over the world
once they published them.
417
00:28:46,333 --> 00:28:49,333
How many people died from your family?
418
00:28:49,416 --> 00:28:51,333
Four people.
419
00:28:51,875 --> 00:28:56,125
When you came back from the market,
what did you see?
420
00:28:57,083 --> 00:29:01,666
I'm too young. I was afraid to look.
421
00:29:03,458 --> 00:29:08,166
Are you the only survivor in your family?
422
00:29:08,250 --> 00:29:10,041
Yes.
423
00:29:13,916 --> 00:29:15,916
They came and burned down everything.
424
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,833
They beat some, captured some.
They killed everyone in a frenzy.
425
00:29:19,541 --> 00:29:22,625
Do you know the reason why?
426
00:29:22,708 --> 00:29:25,458
I don't know. I don't know the reason.
427
00:29:25,541 --> 00:29:29,833
They rounded everyone up.
Even the monk was taken away and killed.
428
00:29:29,916 --> 00:29:35,000
Can you guess how many people died?
429
00:29:35,833 --> 00:29:39,083
- How many people were killed?
- Yes, how many?
430
00:29:39,166 --> 00:29:44,458
I don't know, but I saw death everywhere.
I saw so many dead bodies.
431
00:29:44,541 --> 00:29:48,291
My nephew,
who had just learned to walk--
432
00:29:48,375 --> 00:29:53,583
He was clinging to my head and crying,
"Mommy, Mommy."
433
00:29:53,666 --> 00:29:58,375
Then "bang," he got shot and died.
I just lay there but I couldn't see it.
434
00:30:28,791 --> 00:30:30,541
We've been sort of committed
to a program
435
00:30:30,625 --> 00:30:33,416
of almost at random murder, rape, etc.
436
00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:34,916
I think everybody
just looked the other way,
437
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,083
including the reporters,
438
00:30:36,166 --> 00:30:38,375
who obviously must have heard
about it. Some of them.
439
00:30:40,416 --> 00:30:41,416
{\an8}It's appalling.
440
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:42,791
{\an8}Why the hell didn't this get out?
441
00:30:42,875 --> 00:30:44,125
{\an8}That, to me, is the great question.
442
00:30:44,750 --> 00:30:47,916
Here is the killing
of 400 or 500 people,
443
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,541
witnessed by perhaps
a dozen helicopters
444
00:30:50,625 --> 00:30:53,375
who were assigned that day
for combat support.
445
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,041
The major general in charge
of the Americal Division
446
00:30:56,125 --> 00:30:57,875
was in the air that day.
447
00:30:57,958 --> 00:31:00,875
The colonel in charge
of the brigade was there.
448
00:31:00,958 --> 00:31:02,875
The head of the task force was there.
449
00:31:03,375 --> 00:31:06,958
Within a few days,
300 or 400 men, GIs, knew about it,
450
00:31:07,041 --> 00:31:08,291
and yet nobody said anything.
451
00:31:08,375 --> 00:31:10,166
Nobody reported it.
452
00:31:11,916 --> 00:31:14,375
There's only two things,
I think, to conclude from this.
453
00:31:14,458 --> 00:31:18,291
One is, of course, that it was
such a shockingly untoward event
454
00:31:18,375 --> 00:31:20,875
that nobody
could even begin to discuss it.
455
00:31:20,958 --> 00:31:24,208
The other one, I think
the more logical conclusion, is,
456
00:31:24,291 --> 00:31:26,916
"Well, that's just
another day in Vietnam."
457
00:31:46,166 --> 00:31:48,250
The whole Army ran on body count.
458
00:31:49,041 --> 00:31:52,333
You measure success
by how many kills you have.
459
00:31:55,083 --> 00:31:57,333
Westmoreland needed numbers.
460
00:31:58,291 --> 00:32:01,541
And so how do you get
the kind of body count you want?
461
00:32:04,416 --> 00:32:06,250
You had to go into places like My Lai
462
00:32:06,333 --> 00:32:08,500
and tell them that
everybody there is a Viet Cong
463
00:32:08,583 --> 00:32:10,000
and kill everybody.
464
00:32:18,791 --> 00:32:20,500
They killed people three ways that day.
465
00:32:20,583 --> 00:32:22,416
I'm talking, not everybody
in the company participated,
466
00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:24,000
- but a majority did.
- You missed my point.
467
00:32:24,083 --> 00:32:25,375
I just want to tell you what they did.
468
00:32:25,458 --> 00:32:28,083
We're talking about,
let's just focus on what happened.
469
00:32:28,166 --> 00:32:29,708
They gathered people, perhaps 100 of them
470
00:32:29,791 --> 00:32:31,166
in groups, little circles,
471
00:32:31,250 --> 00:32:33,916
and then some men with
automatic rifle fire, shot them.
472
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,125
You don't know that of your own knowledge.
473
00:32:36,208 --> 00:32:37,250
As a reporter, I know that.
474
00:32:37,333 --> 00:32:38,583
Do you know that of your own knowledge?
475
00:32:38,666 --> 00:32:39,666
You know, if reporters had to use
476
00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:41,208
everything of their own
knowledge, they wouldn't get
477
00:32:41,291 --> 00:32:43,333
much out of a presidential
news conference either.
478
00:32:46,125 --> 00:32:49,333
After my story came out,
the Army did an investigation.
479
00:32:50,541 --> 00:32:52,916
I was reading the testimony
as it happened.
480
00:32:53,666 --> 00:32:56,333
And the Army, of course,
went totally crazy
481
00:32:56,416 --> 00:32:58,000
trying to figure out how I got it.
482
00:32:59,833 --> 00:33:01,958
It was supposed to be kept secret.
483
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,958
Would you again,
taking the large aerial photo,
484
00:33:09,041 --> 00:33:12,958
would you mark where,
to the best of your knowledge,
485
00:33:14,291 --> 00:33:18,666
you saw the ditch with the bodies in it.
486
00:33:20,666 --> 00:33:21,875
Yes, sir.
487
00:33:53,125 --> 00:33:55,416
I don't know
if you want to hear this, sir.
488
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:57,875
Fine. We'd like to
hear anything you have to say.
489
00:33:57,958 --> 00:34:01,166
All right, so the first shot
490
00:34:01,875 --> 00:34:04,500
hit a baby in the head,
491
00:34:04,583 --> 00:34:06,458
and I turned around and got sick,
492
00:34:06,541 --> 00:34:08,958
because that was the first time I ever...
493
00:34:09,041 --> 00:34:11,583
Well, I killed a person before,
494
00:34:11,666 --> 00:34:17,250
but not actually seen it,
the damage what it did.
495
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:24,166
Would you tell us what happened
496
00:34:24,250 --> 00:34:26,375
after this group was shot?
497
00:34:26,458 --> 00:34:27,750
Well...
498
00:34:29,416 --> 00:34:33,041
right at or in that time,
there was several people
499
00:34:33,125 --> 00:34:35,500
raping several women in this area.
500
00:34:35,583 --> 00:34:39,208
There was three other guys
on one girl,
501
00:34:39,291 --> 00:34:40,791
all at one time.
502
00:34:40,875 --> 00:34:43,458
A guy would grab one of the girls there,
503
00:34:43,541 --> 00:34:46,000
and in one or two incidents
504
00:34:46,083 --> 00:34:48,208
they shot the girls when they got done.
505
00:34:57,791 --> 00:35:02,750
Each day was another 30 years
of life on my shoulders.
506
00:35:02,833 --> 00:35:04,000
That's how I felt.
507
00:35:04,083 --> 00:35:07,083
It just got worse and worse and worse.
508
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,916
I spent two or three months finding kids,
509
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,666
and then I learned...
It was just so horrible.
510
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:17,000
I learned more.
511
00:35:17,625 --> 00:35:21,500
You know, a couple times
I couldn't take it anymore.
512
00:35:36,625 --> 00:35:37,916
They had testimony
513
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,625
showing that My Lai
was not isolated.
514
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:44,458
There was a second massacre
the same day.
515
00:35:47,416 --> 00:35:49,291
The Army went to great lengths
to describe My Lai Four
516
00:35:49,375 --> 00:35:50,666
as an isolated incident.
517
00:35:50,750 --> 00:35:52,791
Not only was it not isolated
in terms of the war,
518
00:35:52,875 --> 00:35:54,625
but it wasn't even isolated
in terms of that day,
519
00:35:54,708 --> 00:35:55,958
that morning, that area.
520
00:35:56,041 --> 00:35:58,583
A mile and a half away,
this is going on too.
521
00:36:01,208 --> 00:36:02,416
There were 14 officers
522
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:05,125
that were clearly involved
in covering it up.
523
00:36:05,208 --> 00:36:08,250
And the charges the Army
eventually filed on the 14
524
00:36:08,833 --> 00:36:10,625
were dereliction of duty,
525
00:36:10,708 --> 00:36:13,208
failure to obey lawful regulations,
526
00:36:13,291 --> 00:36:15,666
and failure to duly report.
527
00:36:17,666 --> 00:36:20,458
They were all either involved in murder,
528
00:36:20,541 --> 00:36:22,291
planning murder or covering it up,
529
00:36:22,375 --> 00:36:25,041
and they were charged
with "failure to report."
530
00:36:28,750 --> 00:36:31,166
And then Westmoreland
finishes his four-year term,
531
00:36:31,250 --> 00:36:32,333
and he's promoted,
532
00:36:32,416 --> 00:36:35,625
even though everybody in the Army
533
00:36:35,708 --> 00:36:39,000
and in the Joint Chiefs knows
he was killing civilians.
534
00:36:59,875 --> 00:37:01,041
Hi.
535
00:37:01,583 --> 00:37:03,375
Of course I will protect you in every way.
536
00:37:03,458 --> 00:37:06,250
I don't even know how to describe you.
You tell me.
537
00:37:06,916 --> 00:37:07,916
You can say
538
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,041
"a researcher who recently
returned from Gaza".
539
00:37:12,166 --> 00:37:14,625
When you describe the targeting of women
540
00:37:14,708 --> 00:37:18,125
and you describe the targeting
of children, who has statistics?
541
00:37:18,791 --> 00:37:21,291
In terms of the systematic
targeting of children
542
00:37:21,375 --> 00:37:22,708
with quadcopters,
543
00:37:22,791 --> 00:37:26,458
I, myself, have dozens of X-rays
of children
544
00:37:26,541 --> 00:37:30,500
with quadcopter bullets in their necks,
in their heads,
545
00:37:30,583 --> 00:37:33,166
provided to me by doctors.
546
00:37:33,250 --> 00:37:34,375
These are kids.
547
00:37:35,833 --> 00:37:37,333
A fucking nightmare.
548
00:37:37,416 --> 00:37:39,291
And we're only in the first stage of it.
549
00:37:40,166 --> 00:37:43,291
From my side, I don't have the privilege
550
00:37:43,375 --> 00:37:46,041
of not believing
that something can be done,
551
00:37:46,666 --> 00:37:49,333
because I'm daily in touch
with friends and loved ones.
552
00:37:49,416 --> 00:37:52,541
Not believing means abandoning them.
553
00:37:52,625 --> 00:37:55,875
- Are you going back?
- That's the plan.
554
00:37:56,458 --> 00:37:57,791
What people don't understand
555
00:37:57,875 --> 00:37:59,875
is that this is setting a precedent.
556
00:38:00,666 --> 00:38:04,500
Gaza has collapsed
the past and the future.
557
00:38:05,041 --> 00:38:10,250
This is the past and the future
combined, collapsed.
558
00:38:40,791 --> 00:38:44,625
My father never talked
about much at all with us.
559
00:38:48,083 --> 00:38:51,083
The communication was
either nothing or rage.
560
00:38:51,166 --> 00:38:53,875
But it's very typical Eastern European.
561
00:38:56,708 --> 00:38:59,375
I didn't know the secrets 'til later.
562
00:39:01,041 --> 00:39:03,333
My dad was a Jewish refugee.
563
00:39:03,416 --> 00:39:06,041
Came to America not knowing much English.
564
00:39:06,750 --> 00:39:08,250
He was a violinist in the old country.
565
00:39:08,333 --> 00:39:10,375
Played beautiful violin.
566
00:39:12,083 --> 00:39:14,958
{\an8}He came from a small village
called Šeduva.
567
00:39:16,791 --> 00:39:20,500
{\an8}In Lithuania, in those days,
being Jewish was a marker.
568
00:39:27,083 --> 00:39:29,333
Somehow, when he was about 16 or 17,
569
00:39:29,416 --> 00:39:31,250
in 1920, 22,
570
00:39:31,333 --> 00:39:34,250
{\an8}he got from central Lithuania
to Hamburg
571
00:39:34,333 --> 00:39:35,708
{\an8}and saved $12
572
00:39:35,791 --> 00:39:38,875
{\an8}to get on a ship in steerage
to come to America.
573
00:39:42,250 --> 00:39:44,958
Not knowing English,
not knowing much at all.
574
00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:57,666
Years later, when the Germans came,
575
00:39:57,750 --> 00:39:59,958
they marched all the Jews
out to the woods
576
00:40:00,041 --> 00:40:01,625
and then executed them.
577
00:40:03,208 --> 00:40:04,916
They were all wiped out.
578
00:40:05,916 --> 00:40:08,416
And I-I never talked to him about it
579
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:10,166
because I never knew about it.
580
00:40:10,708 --> 00:40:13,041
Never, not a word about the Holocaust.
581
00:40:15,625 --> 00:40:18,041
It would have been a story
I wanted to hear.
582
00:40:19,791 --> 00:40:21,375
And your mom never told you?
583
00:40:21,916 --> 00:40:23,250
My mom never talked about anything.
584
00:40:23,333 --> 00:40:25,333
And if she did, she didn't tell the truth.
585
00:40:25,416 --> 00:40:26,833
I knew that right away.
586
00:40:26,916 --> 00:40:29,208
That's just the way it was.
My mom liked to bake.
587
00:40:29,291 --> 00:40:30,541
And sometimes if she couldn't bake,
588
00:40:30,625 --> 00:40:32,833
she would buy the cookies
and say she baked them as if--
589
00:40:32,916 --> 00:40:34,291
as if we didn't know the difference.
590
00:40:34,375 --> 00:40:35,375
You know what I mean?
591
00:40:35,458 --> 00:40:37,250
So it was okay.
She was my mother.
592
00:40:43,833 --> 00:40:47,083
I have a twin brother
who's a wave theory physicist.
593
00:40:50,041 --> 00:40:51,333
My mother dressed us alike
594
00:40:51,416 --> 00:40:53,000
until one day,
when we were about 13,
595
00:40:53,083 --> 00:40:54,708
we realized, "This is crazy."
596
00:40:57,625 --> 00:41:01,583
I didn't have any
in-family education.
597
00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:06,291
And so I joined
the Book of the Month club.
598
00:41:09,541 --> 00:41:13,916
I lived on books.
Books taught me how to think.
599
00:41:19,208 --> 00:41:22,291
My father had a business.
Laundry and dry cleaning.
600
00:41:22,375 --> 00:41:25,166
On 45th Street and Indiana,
the South Side.
601
00:41:26,041 --> 00:41:28,541
And I liked it. I liked working there.
602
00:41:30,625 --> 00:41:32,958
It was all-Black community,
Black workers.
603
00:41:37,791 --> 00:41:39,250
There was a guy named Sterling,
604
00:41:39,333 --> 00:41:41,125
he was about in his early 20s.
605
00:41:41,208 --> 00:41:45,208
He was pressing pants for $0.12,
and he used to take me to games.
606
00:41:46,375 --> 00:41:48,666
I saw all the great Negro league players,
607
00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:50,666
Satchel Paige and others, as a kid.
608
00:41:54,833 --> 00:41:55,833
He made it pretty plain to me
609
00:41:55,916 --> 00:41:57,541
that you're going to be okay, kid,
because, you know,
610
00:41:57,625 --> 00:41:58,708
you got that color.
611
00:41:58,791 --> 00:41:59,791
I don't have that color.
612
00:41:59,875 --> 00:42:01,250
I'm going to be pressing pants
the rest of my life.
613
00:42:01,333 --> 00:42:02,708
So I got that.
614
00:42:02,791 --> 00:42:05,750
I got that. It wasn't that explicit,
but I got that.
615
00:42:08,375 --> 00:42:11,666
I had two older sisters.
They were also twins.
616
00:42:12,166 --> 00:42:14,791
They couldn't wait to
get the hell out of the house.
617
00:42:17,083 --> 00:42:19,541
I was always living
a little bit by my wits,
618
00:42:20,208 --> 00:42:23,375
because from the age of 15 on,
I was carrying the family.
619
00:42:25,041 --> 00:42:26,750
I remember his coughing at night.
620
00:42:27,583 --> 00:42:30,541
Three packs.
I remember his coughing.
621
00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:35,791
It went from lung cancer
to brain cancer.
622
00:42:36,625 --> 00:42:37,875
As he got sicker and sicker,
623
00:42:37,958 --> 00:42:39,208
I could take him,
I could bathe him,
624
00:42:39,291 --> 00:42:40,708
I could do all that stuff.
625
00:42:42,458 --> 00:42:44,458
I went from getting
straight A's to nothing.
626
00:42:44,541 --> 00:42:46,000
{\an8}I didn't go to school.
627
00:42:49,250 --> 00:42:51,541
{\an8}His argument was,
forget about college.
628
00:42:51,625 --> 00:42:53,166
He needed me
629
00:42:53,250 --> 00:42:55,750
to stay and run the store
because I could do it.
630
00:42:55,833 --> 00:42:59,041
And Alan,
who was my brother, he just...
631
00:42:59,791 --> 00:43:01,833
He wasn't going to cut it.
He had to go to college.
632
00:43:01,916 --> 00:43:04,250
But Seymour doesn't need college.
He'll be okay.
633
00:43:04,750 --> 00:43:07,125
That was the way he did it.
Because I could run the store.
634
00:43:07,208 --> 00:43:08,833
And I could, you know?
635
00:43:09,375 --> 00:43:11,625
What skills did you have to run the store?
636
00:43:13,583 --> 00:43:16,166
Talk. Pizazz. Like people.
637
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:25,500
One night, I was driving
from the store after closing it.
638
00:43:26,791 --> 00:43:28,000
And the way I knew he died
639
00:43:28,083 --> 00:43:30,125
is I looked up and the light was dark.
640
00:43:32,708 --> 00:43:34,958
I didn't even know
he was on the deathbed.
641
00:43:35,666 --> 00:43:38,875
I mean, it just was an unthinking family.
642
00:43:38,958 --> 00:43:40,791
That I couldn't say goodbye?
643
00:43:58,375 --> 00:44:00,208
There was a junior college.
644
00:44:00,291 --> 00:44:02,833
The University of Illinois
had a junior college,
645
00:44:03,458 --> 00:44:05,041
and it was very cheap.
646
00:44:05,125 --> 00:44:06,500
That was the big thing.
647
00:44:07,833 --> 00:44:09,416
I always knew I was a good writer.
648
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:11,458
I didn't think it was that valuable.
649
00:44:11,958 --> 00:44:13,375
I just didn't think that...
650
00:44:13,458 --> 00:44:15,875
I couldn't see any reason
that was so important to me
651
00:44:15,958 --> 00:44:17,541
when I'm ringing up the cash register,
652
00:44:17,625 --> 00:44:19,291
giving people clothes.
653
00:44:20,375 --> 00:44:21,833
One of the first assignments was
654
00:44:21,916 --> 00:44:26,041
to compare any British novel
you want with an American novel.
655
00:44:26,875 --> 00:44:28,708
And so I wrote this essay about it.
656
00:44:29,208 --> 00:44:30,916
At the end of class one day,
I'm in the back row,
657
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,208
eager to get out.
658
00:44:32,708 --> 00:44:34,333
And he said, "Is Seymour Hersh here?"
659
00:44:34,416 --> 00:44:37,250
"Oh, fuck," I thought.
"What have I done?"
660
00:44:37,833 --> 00:44:39,916
I walked up to the front,
you know, head down.
661
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,125
And he said, "Are you Hersh?"
I said, "Yeah." He said,
662
00:44:42,208 --> 00:44:45,208
"What are you doing here?"
And I knew what he meant.
663
00:44:45,958 --> 00:44:47,666
"Well, my father died..."
664
00:44:47,750 --> 00:44:51,583
He said to me, "So where's your store?"
665
00:44:51,666 --> 00:44:54,416
"47th and Indiana on the South Side."
666
00:44:54,500 --> 00:44:57,166
He said, "You've got your own schedule?
667
00:44:57,250 --> 00:44:59,833
Well, meet me tomorrow
at the admissions office."
668
00:44:59,916 --> 00:45:01,791
I tear up thinking about it.
669
00:45:01,875 --> 00:45:04,166
"At the University of Chicago."
670
00:45:04,250 --> 00:45:06,750
And I go there, and they give me a test.
671
00:45:06,833 --> 00:45:09,333
They said, "Wait, we can--
You don't need English 1."
672
00:45:09,416 --> 00:45:11,333
I said, "Yeah, yeah,
I need it, I need it all."
673
00:45:11,416 --> 00:45:12,458
So I took it all.
674
00:45:14,416 --> 00:45:16,958
And that was it. It changed my life.
675
00:45:31,375 --> 00:45:33,458
You gotta understand. I get to Chicago,
676
00:45:33,541 --> 00:45:35,208
and it's a different world.
677
00:45:39,625 --> 00:45:41,458
I had a girlfriend,
and she was from Washington,
678
00:45:41,541 --> 00:45:43,166
and her father was in the government.
679
00:45:43,250 --> 00:45:46,208
And she shocked me by saying...
I must have been 19, 20...
680
00:45:46,291 --> 00:45:47,458
She said, "Oh, my God.
681
00:45:47,541 --> 00:45:49,958
My father thinks Eisenhower
is such an asshole."
682
00:45:50,041 --> 00:45:52,500
Somebody talked about
a president that way?
683
00:45:52,583 --> 00:45:54,625
"Your father said that to you,
and he's working in the..."
684
00:45:54,708 --> 00:45:57,541
She said, "Yeah, he's really,
really a dumb asshole."
685
00:45:57,625 --> 00:45:59,125
I said...
686
00:45:59,208 --> 00:46:01,458
"Presidents can be dumb assholes?"
You know.
687
00:46:01,541 --> 00:46:03,500
I mean, you know, I was 19 or 20,
688
00:46:03,583 --> 00:46:06,000
so I didn't understand the world.
689
00:46:07,416 --> 00:46:10,458
Um... And I didn't think
I was going to make it a better place.
690
00:46:10,541 --> 00:46:12,458
I had no illusions.
691
00:46:12,958 --> 00:46:15,500
Um... Um...
692
00:46:17,708 --> 00:46:21,708
But I had a vague feeling
that I had some moxie going.
693
00:46:24,291 --> 00:46:25,958
One night at a bar,
694
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:29,500
a guy starts talking to me,
and I said, "What do you do?"
695
00:46:29,583 --> 00:46:32,541
He said, "Well, I'm a reporter.
I've been at City News."
696
00:46:33,083 --> 00:46:34,666
I said, "What do you mean, City News?"
He said,
697
00:46:34,750 --> 00:46:36,708
"Don't you know anything about it?"
I said, "No."
698
00:46:38,875 --> 00:46:42,333
It just was...
It was like a miracle.
699
00:46:42,875 --> 00:46:45,083
You know, I mean, it's just
like a friggin' miracle
700
00:46:45,166 --> 00:46:47,083
that I found my way
to journalism.
701
00:46:54,083 --> 00:46:56,041
When they did a story,
702
00:46:56,125 --> 00:46:57,791
I would roll out 12 copies
703
00:46:57,875 --> 00:47:00,083
and put them in a bin
and put them, roll them up
704
00:47:00,166 --> 00:47:01,958
and send them in the pneumatic
tubes to all the papers.
705
00:47:02,041 --> 00:47:03,291
That was my job.
706
00:47:04,458 --> 00:47:05,625
Within a month,
707
00:47:05,708 --> 00:47:07,791
I'm promoted to being a police reporter.
708
00:47:14,083 --> 00:47:16,916
I fell in love being a reporter.
I loved it.
709
00:47:23,250 --> 00:47:26,041
Chicago was a mobbed-up city,
710
00:47:26,125 --> 00:47:29,458
and the mob and the police
had something in common, ok?
711
00:47:29,541 --> 00:47:31,916
I did understand that.
712
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,250
The first thing you learn is
"Do not fuck with the cops."
713
00:47:36,791 --> 00:47:40,958
If they're robbing and stealing,
that's not our business.
714
00:47:42,208 --> 00:47:45,250
So I saw a tyranny up close, in a way.
715
00:47:45,333 --> 00:47:46,958
And I understood it was a tyranny.
716
00:47:47,041 --> 00:47:49,291
But it was also the most
exciting thing I'd ever been in.
717
00:48:02,541 --> 00:48:06,666
I'm writing something
that's going to be sort of puerile
718
00:48:07,166 --> 00:48:09,041
in terms of what the real story is,
719
00:48:09,125 --> 00:48:10,333
but close enough.
720
00:48:10,833 --> 00:48:12,791
Um, you know, but it's important
721
00:48:12,875 --> 00:48:15,250
because the warning
about Dimona is important.
722
00:48:15,333 --> 00:48:16,916
You know, Dimona's not a target...
723
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:18,916
You were wrong, you said 30 miles
724
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:20,333
between the airfield and Dimona.
725
00:48:20,416 --> 00:48:22,958
It was 28 miles. You're losing it, kid.
726
00:48:25,250 --> 00:48:27,333
Goodbye, baby. Talk to you.
727
00:48:28,208 --> 00:48:30,541
That was my Israeli friend
who helped me on the bomb,
728
00:48:30,625 --> 00:48:31,833
30 years ago.
729
00:48:32,333 --> 00:48:34,583
Did you see it?
I sent it to you, let's see.
730
00:48:35,541 --> 00:48:38,500
I mean, I either sent it to you
or I sent it to my dead mother.
731
00:48:39,416 --> 00:48:40,833
Maybe she can read it.
732
00:48:42,041 --> 00:48:44,041
I once came back from Hanoi,
733
00:48:44,125 --> 00:48:46,458
I made a trip to Hanoi during the war.
734
00:48:47,750 --> 00:48:48,791
She said, "Always going
735
00:48:48,875 --> 00:48:50,291
where nobody wants you," you know.
736
00:48:50,375 --> 00:48:53,833
"Always going where nobody wants you."
737
00:48:53,916 --> 00:48:55,541
Let's see what I did with that thing.
738
00:49:14,666 --> 00:49:16,625
I had a visa to go to Hanoi.
739
00:49:18,208 --> 00:49:20,291
The Times called me up, said,
740
00:49:20,375 --> 00:49:23,458
"We'd really like to publish
anything you have from Vietnam."
741
00:49:27,583 --> 00:49:29,791
{\an8}That's how Abe Rosenthal hired me.
742
00:49:35,250 --> 00:49:36,500
When I got to The Times,
743
00:49:36,583 --> 00:49:38,916
Henry Kissinger
wanted to see me right away.
744
00:49:40,416 --> 00:49:43,625
He's really worried
about the guy that did My Lai
745
00:49:43,708 --> 00:49:45,458
being at The New York Times.
746
00:49:46,458 --> 00:49:49,333
That was not a comfortable feeling
for him,
747
00:49:49,416 --> 00:49:51,458
because he always had his way.
748
00:49:55,500 --> 00:49:57,375
He was Nixon's national security advisor,
749
00:49:57,458 --> 00:49:59,958
and he spent a great deal of time
with reporters.
750
00:50:01,416 --> 00:50:04,333
He was really working the press,
the media, very much.
751
00:50:07,666 --> 00:50:09,750
{\an8}I go see him in the White House.
752
00:50:13,750 --> 00:50:17,208
And he said, "So, I'm interested
in what your impression was
753
00:50:17,291 --> 00:50:19,875
when you were in Hanoi
in all those weeks."
754
00:50:20,833 --> 00:50:21,833
I said, "Well, I can tell you
755
00:50:21,916 --> 00:50:24,000
I saw no signs of a lack of morale."
756
00:50:24,083 --> 00:50:27,458
Then I went on like that,
10, 15 minutes of badinage,
757
00:50:27,541 --> 00:50:28,833
not about policy.
758
00:50:29,416 --> 00:50:32,500
He said, "Hold on,"
and he called his aide on Vietnam.
759
00:50:32,583 --> 00:50:33,875
And he said to him,
760
00:50:33,958 --> 00:50:37,000
"This man knows more about
what's going on in Vietnam
761
00:50:37,083 --> 00:50:38,625
than the CIA."
762
00:50:38,708 --> 00:50:41,208
And I thought to myself,
"This can't be real."
763
00:50:41,791 --> 00:50:44,583
I mean, am I supposed to be
flattered by this bullshit?
764
00:50:44,666 --> 00:50:46,333
I was just amazed.
765
00:50:48,791 --> 00:50:50,500
But that's how it worked.
766
00:50:53,250 --> 00:50:54,250
Kissinger would call up
767
00:50:54,333 --> 00:50:57,458
and talk to The New York Times'
bureau chief, Max Frankel.
768
00:50:59,458 --> 00:51:00,583
And Bernie Gwertzman,
769
00:51:00,666 --> 00:51:03,250
who was doing
the main foreign policy article,
770
00:51:03,750 --> 00:51:05,458
would write a story.
771
00:51:08,500 --> 00:51:11,666
And it would reflect exactly
what Kissinger said.
772
00:51:13,666 --> 00:51:16,708
"American officials say
talks reach a new impasse."
773
00:51:17,416 --> 00:51:20,458
"Senior officials said today..."
and it was just Kissinger.
774
00:51:21,583 --> 00:51:23,750
I was knocked out by this.
775
00:51:23,833 --> 00:51:25,958
The power the guy had in the paper.
776
00:51:28,375 --> 00:51:30,958
And he sure as hell didn't like
what I was doing.
777
00:51:36,375 --> 00:51:39,041
Nixon: This fellow Hersh
is a son of a bitch.
778
00:51:39,125 --> 00:51:41,041
Nixon: He's probably a communist agent.
779
00:51:41,125 --> 00:51:43,041
Kissinger: Exactly. Exactly.
780
00:51:43,125 --> 00:51:45,416
Nixon: I just thought it was shocking
The New York Times would run that.
781
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:46,333
Kissinger: Oh, it was a disgrace.
782
00:51:46,416 --> 00:51:47,625
Nixon: What do you think?
783
00:51:47,708 --> 00:51:52,625
Nixon: He was picking it, Henry,
right out of whole cloth.
784
00:51:59,250 --> 00:52:01,666
I was just getting my feet wet
at The Times,
785
00:52:01,750 --> 00:52:03,958
when somebody in the CIA
786
00:52:04,041 --> 00:52:08,875
told me this most amazing story
about a top-secret operation.
787
00:52:11,041 --> 00:52:12,875
The Russians had lost a submarine
788
00:52:12,958 --> 00:52:14,791
that may have a codebook.
789
00:52:20,208 --> 00:52:22,833
The CIA made up a cover story
790
00:52:22,916 --> 00:52:24,833
to recover the Russian submarine,
791
00:52:26,250 --> 00:52:28,708
using a boat owned by Howard Hughes,
792
00:52:29,791 --> 00:52:31,416
called the Glomar Explorer.
793
00:52:34,125 --> 00:52:36,500
It was the craziest
stupid operation in the world.
794
00:52:40,500 --> 00:52:42,208
{\an8}I had the story,
795
00:52:42,291 --> 00:52:43,958
but the paper was convinced
by the government
796
00:52:44,041 --> 00:52:46,791
not to publish it,
because of national security.
797
00:52:48,791 --> 00:52:50,833
They didn't run it for two years.
798
00:52:52,875 --> 00:52:54,916
I didn't quit, but I thought about it.
799
00:52:57,625 --> 00:53:00,750
The biggest trouble I had
was managing Sy
800
00:53:00,833 --> 00:53:04,458
at a newspaper that hated to be beaten
801
00:53:04,541 --> 00:53:07,791
but didn't really want to be first.
802
00:53:08,875 --> 00:53:10,541
The Times was scared to death
803
00:53:10,625 --> 00:53:13,250
of being first on a controversial story
804
00:53:13,333 --> 00:53:15,958
that challenged the credibility
of the government.
805
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:39,833
Over the weekend, five men were nabbed
806
00:53:39,916 --> 00:53:42,625
in the Democratic National headquarters
here in Washington,
807
00:53:42,708 --> 00:53:45,708
seemingly preparing
to tap or bug the place.
808
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,916
It happened on a weekend.
809
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:00,458
And The Times had missed the story
810
00:54:00,541 --> 00:54:02,125
because all the guys on weekends,
811
00:54:02,208 --> 00:54:03,958
they were, you know,
at the beach somewhere,
812
00:54:04,041 --> 00:54:05,500
you know, or at the club.
813
00:54:06,375 --> 00:54:07,541
The Washington Post, meanwhile,
814
00:54:07,625 --> 00:54:09,041
gets a police report of these guys,
815
00:54:09,125 --> 00:54:11,458
and they send Woodward and Bernstein
down to cover it.
816
00:54:15,750 --> 00:54:17,500
I go to the courthouse,
817
00:54:17,583 --> 00:54:19,333
and there's the arraignment.
818
00:54:20,250 --> 00:54:24,416
The judge asks the lead burglar,
James McCord,
819
00:54:24,500 --> 00:54:26,083
"Where did you work?"
820
00:54:26,583 --> 00:54:29,458
McCord goes-- "CIA."
821
00:54:29,541 --> 00:54:32,166
And the judge says,
"Speak up, speak up."
822
00:54:32,250 --> 00:54:35,166
And he finally says, "CIA."
823
00:54:35,250 --> 00:54:39,458
I am in the front row watching this,
824
00:54:39,541 --> 00:54:42,291
and blurted out,
825
00:54:42,375 --> 00:54:44,291
"Holy shit."
826
00:54:46,750 --> 00:54:49,958
It was kind of portrayed in the media
827
00:54:50,041 --> 00:54:52,666
as a bizarre, unexplained event,
828
00:54:52,750 --> 00:54:55,541
and Carl and I didn't see it that way.
829
00:54:55,625 --> 00:54:57,375
We still don't know nearly everything
830
00:54:57,458 --> 00:54:59,791
that happened during the campaign
831
00:54:59,875 --> 00:55:03,250
in terms of political espionage
and sabotage.
832
00:55:03,833 --> 00:55:05,833
Not just wiretapping, but other acts.
833
00:55:06,416 --> 00:55:08,083
It was a story
834
00:55:08,166 --> 00:55:12,583
that we were alone on for seven months.
835
00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:17,250
Woodward and Bernstein had
the story, and they owned it.
836
00:55:18,750 --> 00:55:22,416
Rosenthal eventually,
in the end of '72, came down
837
00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:24,166
and he said,
"We can't let The Washington Post
838
00:55:24,250 --> 00:55:25,791
push us around like that."
839
00:55:27,333 --> 00:55:29,666
I didn't want to do Watergate.
840
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:31,916
I didn't know anybody
in the White House.
841
00:55:33,958 --> 00:55:37,041
But I was sorta full of myself, you know?
842
00:55:38,083 --> 00:55:40,208
And so I'm in the fringes,
843
00:55:40,291 --> 00:55:44,041
I'm nibbling around, I'm getting
some stuff from the committee.
844
00:55:44,125 --> 00:55:45,416
And eventually,
845
00:55:45,500 --> 00:55:48,041
I found one of the five people
that broke in,
846
00:55:48,125 --> 00:55:52,333
and he tells the story
about the whole cover-up.
847
00:55:57,500 --> 00:56:01,458
On January 14th, Sy Hersh's story
848
00:56:01,541 --> 00:56:05,291
said the burglars were
being paid for their silence.
849
00:56:05,916 --> 00:56:07,833
That was a very important story,
850
00:56:07,916 --> 00:56:12,291
because it was additional
evidence of the cover-up.
851
00:56:13,916 --> 00:56:16,625
This was a lifeline.
852
00:56:16,708 --> 00:56:20,250
Not only that it was
Sy Hersh of My Lai,
853
00:56:20,333 --> 00:56:22,708
but it was The New York Times.
854
00:56:23,666 --> 00:56:26,041
That's why I called him up and said,
855
00:56:26,125 --> 00:56:28,250
"Thank you. It's lonely."
856
00:56:29,916 --> 00:56:33,250
He said, "We had to get
The Times into the story.
857
00:56:33,333 --> 00:56:34,416
We just couldn't believe
858
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:36,166
you guys wouldn't get into the story.
859
00:56:36,250 --> 00:56:38,125
We couldn't believe how dumb you were."
860
00:56:38,208 --> 00:56:40,000
And he said,
"Thank you, thank you, thank you."
861
00:56:40,083 --> 00:56:41,250
And he meant that.
862
00:56:43,041 --> 00:56:46,333
So I was able to keep the story
going for The Times.
863
00:56:49,333 --> 00:56:50,625
It was great competition
864
00:56:50,708 --> 00:56:52,125
with Carl and Bob.
865
00:56:52,208 --> 00:56:53,625
It was fun.
866
00:56:54,791 --> 00:56:56,125
Mr. Mitchell,
The New York Times quotes
867
00:56:56,208 --> 00:56:57,583
government investigators this morning
868
00:56:57,666 --> 00:56:59,458
as saying that
you helped coordinate a plan
869
00:56:59,541 --> 00:57:01,583
to cover up the Watergate
after the incident.
870
00:57:01,666 --> 00:57:04,125
{\an8}I noticed The New York Times
story this morning,
871
00:57:04,208 --> 00:57:06,125
and it's about the same
872
00:57:06,208 --> 00:57:09,291
as every other one I see
in The New York Times.
873
00:57:09,375 --> 00:57:10,958
I don't believe any of them.
874
00:57:21,333 --> 00:57:26,000
Nixon: Goddamn it, this story
in The Times, the one by Hersh--
875
00:57:26,083 --> 00:57:28,000
He doesn't usually go
with stuff that's wrong.
876
00:57:28,083 --> 00:57:32,000
I mean the son of a bitch is a son of
a bitch, but he's usually right, isn't he?
877
00:57:37,500 --> 00:57:39,041
At this point,
878
00:57:39,125 --> 00:57:41,958
I'm getting stuff
that nobody else is getting.
879
00:57:45,041 --> 00:57:46,458
There were people
880
00:57:46,541 --> 00:57:48,666
in the White House staff talking to me.
881
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,000
I had some amazing people
talking to me in Justice.
882
00:57:59,166 --> 00:58:01,125
I was beginning to get a sense
883
00:58:01,208 --> 00:58:05,958
of the great extent of covert dirt.
884
00:58:12,208 --> 00:58:15,333
Kissinger was doing stuff
all over the world, covertly.
885
00:58:18,958 --> 00:58:23,000
He had control of covert operations
up to a great extent.
886
00:58:23,625 --> 00:58:26,625
It's called the 40 Committee.
And Kissinger was the boss.
887
00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:31,791
They would do anything to stay in power.
888
00:58:32,541 --> 00:58:34,791
Any lie, any story. Bury anybody.
889
00:58:37,375 --> 00:58:40,500
Allende, Allende!
890
00:58:40,583 --> 00:58:43,583
Allende, Allende!
891
00:58:43,666 --> 00:58:45,541
Nixon hated the Allende government.
892
00:58:47,041 --> 00:58:49,375
They were lefties.
They were Communists.
893
00:58:50,708 --> 00:58:52,375
They had nationalized
copper mines
894
00:58:52,458 --> 00:58:53,875
that were owned by people
895
00:58:53,958 --> 00:58:56,916
who were big supporters
of Nixon financially.
896
00:59:02,666 --> 00:59:04,875
So, there was a lot
of pressure on Kissinger
897
00:59:04,958 --> 00:59:06,250
and the CIA
898
00:59:06,333 --> 00:59:08,958
to make sure
Allende didn't stay in office.
899
00:59:19,291 --> 00:59:24,333
In '73, Allende was killed
and the overthrow took place.
900
00:59:38,625 --> 00:59:41,666
A fascist named Pinochet came in.
901
00:59:43,833 --> 00:59:45,708
They arrested thousands of people,
902
00:59:45,791 --> 00:59:47,041
and many of them were killed.
903
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,000
It was all connected.
904
01:00:46,666 --> 01:00:49,791
The Nixon re-election committee,
905
01:00:49,875 --> 01:00:54,125
{\an8}the Nixon White House,
the Nixon CIA.
906
01:00:54,208 --> 01:00:57,166
It was all intertwined.
907
01:00:59,500 --> 01:01:03,000
I shall resign the presidency
effective at noon tomorrow.
908
01:01:04,208 --> 01:01:08,041
Vice President Ford
will be sworn in as President
909
01:01:08,125 --> 01:01:11,166
at that hour in this office.
910
01:01:49,875 --> 01:01:52,791
People inside the CIA
began to tell me more.
911
01:02:01,125 --> 01:02:02,625
Sy, you're a reporter
912
01:02:02,708 --> 01:02:04,250
who has come up with some scoops,
913
01:02:04,333 --> 01:02:07,166
and yet who's also identified
as very much of a critic.
914
01:02:07,250 --> 01:02:10,333
And yet, you continue to get leaks.
915
01:02:11,208 --> 01:02:13,708
Does that mean the system
isn't as closed as you think it is?
916
01:02:13,791 --> 01:02:15,958
Of course it isn't.
No, of course not. Sure.
917
01:02:16,041 --> 01:02:19,583
The thing I do is...
I give service to leaks.
918
01:02:19,666 --> 01:02:23,000
If they're a good leak, baby,
I drop everything and go get it.
919
01:02:27,333 --> 01:02:30,416
{\an8}People, for a lot of reasons, they talk.
920
01:02:31,041 --> 01:02:32,458
They talk to me.
921
01:02:34,333 --> 01:02:36,083
People want to talk about stuff they did
922
01:02:36,166 --> 01:02:37,541
that was wrong and stupid.
923
01:02:37,625 --> 01:02:39,375
That's what I always thought.
924
01:02:40,583 --> 01:02:43,208
I got to be very friendly with a source.
925
01:02:44,791 --> 01:02:46,708
Bob Kiley was his name.
926
01:02:49,041 --> 01:02:51,666
He's dead now, so I can talk about him.
927
01:02:53,250 --> 01:02:57,333
Kiley was recruited by the CIA
to spy on student activists.
928
01:02:59,583 --> 01:03:01,625
He was increasingly disillusioned.
929
01:03:01,708 --> 01:03:03,333
He left the CIA.
930
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,708
I called him.
931
01:03:11,375 --> 01:03:13,875
He told me about CHAOS.
932
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,541
{\an8}"What the hell is Operation CHAOS?"
933
01:03:26,333 --> 01:03:28,500
He told me that, in the late '60s,
934
01:03:28,583 --> 01:03:29,875
the government was under pressure
935
01:03:29,958 --> 01:03:31,375
by the White House to find out
936
01:03:31,458 --> 01:03:34,000
if the student movement
was being run by communists.
937
01:03:37,500 --> 01:03:38,958
And so, the CIA
938
01:03:39,041 --> 01:03:41,083
began making contacts with student groups
939
01:03:41,166 --> 01:03:42,750
and recruiting inside them.
940
01:03:44,333 --> 01:03:46,000
Spying on American kids.
941
01:03:52,125 --> 01:03:54,250
The guy running counterintelligence
942
01:03:54,333 --> 01:03:56,416
was a man named James Angleton.
943
01:03:57,333 --> 01:03:59,916
He was a mythical figure in the CIA.
944
01:04:01,541 --> 01:04:05,500
I called him up, and I said,
"I know about CHAOS."
945
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:08,666
He not only denied everything,
946
01:04:08,750 --> 01:04:12,125
he offered me two stories
if I wouldn't write that story.
947
01:04:13,041 --> 01:04:14,708
I just knew it was right.
948
01:04:30,416 --> 01:04:31,916
The New York Times reported today
949
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:33,500
that the Central Intelligence Agency
950
01:04:33,583 --> 01:04:36,500
had consistently violated
the terms of its charter
951
01:04:36,583 --> 01:04:39,958
from the 1950s until the end
of the Nixon administration.
952
01:04:40,041 --> 01:04:43,291
That included spying
on at least 10,000 Americans.
953
01:04:43,375 --> 01:04:44,625
By law, the CIA
954
01:04:44,708 --> 01:04:47,000
is supposed to gather
only foreign intelligence.
955
01:04:51,583 --> 01:04:54,541
Angleton was very angry
at me, to put it mildly.
956
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:06,916
After several days of intense pressure,
957
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:09,166
James Angleton told reporters
he has resigned
958
01:05:09,250 --> 01:05:11,666
as chief of counterintelligence
of the CIA.
959
01:05:12,333 --> 01:05:13,791
Jim Angleton.
960
01:05:14,416 --> 01:05:15,750
Why did you resign?
961
01:05:17,166 --> 01:05:20,166
I think the time comes to all men
962
01:05:21,708 --> 01:05:23,750
when they no longer serve their country.
963
01:05:23,833 --> 01:05:26,083
Did you jump or were you pushed?
964
01:05:27,208 --> 01:05:29,291
I wasn't pushed out a window.
965
01:05:37,750 --> 01:05:39,833
As I was doing the story,
966
01:05:40,791 --> 01:05:42,833
people were looking at me at the agency.
967
01:05:43,750 --> 01:05:46,000
They had been watching me for a long time.
968
01:05:49,583 --> 01:05:51,166
There was total panic,
969
01:05:51,250 --> 01:05:53,625
because I knew about
this secret document
970
01:05:53,708 --> 01:05:55,125
called "The Jewels".
971
01:05:58,250 --> 01:06:01,375
{\an8}I heard "Family" later,
but they called it "The Jewels".
972
01:06:03,958 --> 01:06:05,333
The former CIA director
973
01:06:05,416 --> 01:06:07,958
had put out the order
to gather all of the wrongdoing.
974
01:06:08,916 --> 01:06:10,208
He wanted everybody
in the agency
975
01:06:10,291 --> 01:06:13,375
who knew something that
was against the Constitution
976
01:06:13,458 --> 01:06:15,708
to put together
a huge compilation.
977
01:06:17,291 --> 01:06:20,125
Every criminal act
that had violated American law.
978
01:06:20,791 --> 01:06:24,958
Foreign assassinations,
domestic spying, mind control...
979
01:06:26,166 --> 01:06:28,416
There was a big book, 600-700 pages.
980
01:06:28,500 --> 01:06:29,500
And I knew about it.
981
01:06:35,541 --> 01:06:39,250
The CIA had operated in the shadows
982
01:06:39,333 --> 01:06:41,541
for all of its existence.
983
01:06:42,500 --> 01:06:45,708
Sy's reporting was the trigger
984
01:06:45,791 --> 01:06:48,583
that set up
the Rockefeller Commission.
985
01:06:49,875 --> 01:06:53,708
And that, in turn,
led to the Church Committee.
986
01:06:55,625 --> 01:06:57,416
The hearing will please come to order.
987
01:06:57,500 --> 01:06:59,041
And as a result,
988
01:06:59,125 --> 01:07:02,708
the public got its fullest
and ugliest portrayal
989
01:07:02,791 --> 01:07:06,458
of a government agency
that had operated in secrecy.
990
01:07:06,541 --> 01:07:08,416
The whole truth and nothing but the truth...
991
01:07:08,500 --> 01:07:10,208
so help you God.
I do.
992
01:07:10,291 --> 01:07:11,708
You just said, did you not,
993
01:07:11,791 --> 01:07:14,458
that you knew in 1970,
994
01:07:14,541 --> 01:07:16,583
and had known
for a substantial period of time,
995
01:07:16,666 --> 01:07:19,166
that the CIA was opening mail
in New York City?
996
01:07:19,250 --> 01:07:20,375
That is correct.
997
01:07:21,916 --> 01:07:26,833
Certain individual rights
have to be sacrificed
998
01:07:27,625 --> 01:07:29,500
for the national security.
999
01:07:32,875 --> 01:07:35,625
Operation CHAOS
was the tip of the iceberg.
1000
01:07:35,708 --> 01:07:38,166
The Senate this morning
meets in a rare secret session
1001
01:07:38,250 --> 01:07:40,250
to discuss its Intelligence
Committee's report
1002
01:07:40,333 --> 01:07:41,750
on the CIA's involvement
1003
01:07:41,833 --> 01:07:43,458
in plots to kill foreign leaders.
1004
01:07:43,541 --> 01:07:47,083
The decade of murder plots
spanned four administrations,
1005
01:07:47,166 --> 01:07:49,583
from the first attempt on Castro in 1960
1006
01:07:49,666 --> 01:07:51,208
under President Eisenhower,
1007
01:07:51,291 --> 01:07:53,583
to the death of a Chilean general in 1970
1008
01:07:53,666 --> 01:07:55,208
under President Nixon,
1009
01:07:55,291 --> 01:07:58,208
{\an8}and some plots under
the Kennedy and Johnson tenures.
1010
01:07:58,291 --> 01:08:00,250
There was no policy
1011
01:08:01,625 --> 01:08:05,375
uh, since... to assassinate
1012
01:08:05,458 --> 01:08:08,416
any foreign official or foreign leader.
1013
01:08:08,500 --> 01:08:10,500
There was no plot.
1014
01:08:10,583 --> 01:08:12,000
{\an8}As far as I know,
1015
01:08:12,083 --> 01:08:13,791
{\an8}the CIA was never responsible
1016
01:08:13,875 --> 01:08:16,041
{\an8}for assassinating any foreign leaders.
1017
01:08:16,125 --> 01:08:19,125
Were there discussions about
possible assassinations?
1018
01:08:19,208 --> 01:08:21,000
I don't know whether
I've stopped beating my wife
1019
01:08:21,083 --> 01:08:23,083
or whether you've stopped
beating your wife or--
1020
01:08:23,708 --> 01:08:24,791
talks of that--
1021
01:08:24,875 --> 01:08:26,750
but in government
there are always discussions
1022
01:08:26,833 --> 01:08:28,083
of practically everything under the sun.
1023
01:08:28,166 --> 01:08:29,083
Of assassinations?
1024
01:08:29,166 --> 01:08:30,958
Of everything under the sun.
1025
01:08:31,041 --> 01:08:32,500
Well, you're not answering my question.
1026
01:08:32,583 --> 01:08:34,750
Well, I'm not trying
to answer your question.
1027
01:08:37,500 --> 01:08:40,041
When Helms left, he burned a lot of files.
1028
01:08:40,125 --> 01:08:42,291
He literally burned them
in his office.
1029
01:08:42,833 --> 01:08:46,583
I learned that from Kiley.
He was Helms's assistant.
1030
01:08:49,833 --> 01:08:52,500
The covert operations people,
the dirty tricks people,
1031
01:08:52,583 --> 01:08:55,500
they have their own histories
that they don't share.
1032
01:09:05,583 --> 01:09:08,708
"The Jewels" that were
finally released were redacted.
1033
01:09:10,833 --> 01:09:13,083
Obviously, there was much more.
1034
01:09:18,875 --> 01:09:22,375
{\an8}We do know that the CIA, in the late '50s,
1035
01:09:22,458 --> 01:09:25,208
{\an8}they were trying to make
a Manchurian Candidate
1036
01:09:25,291 --> 01:09:27,000
{\an8}using LSD.
1037
01:09:29,375 --> 01:09:32,500
They were going to reprogram
somebody to be an assassin.
1038
01:09:33,625 --> 01:09:35,958
It was really crazy stuff.
1039
01:09:38,250 --> 01:09:41,416
And somebody from inside
was troubled by it.
1040
01:09:44,625 --> 01:09:46,333
Frank Olson was ready to quit,
1041
01:09:46,416 --> 01:09:48,208
and he was seen as a traitor.
1042
01:09:51,125 --> 01:09:52,500
Frank Olson plunged to his death
1043
01:09:52,583 --> 01:09:55,958
from the tenth floor of
the Hotel Statler in New York.
1044
01:09:56,541 --> 01:09:59,000
His family was told
he'd committed suicide.
1045
01:10:04,333 --> 01:10:06,458
I have every reason to believe
1046
01:10:06,541 --> 01:10:08,250
that was an organized CIA hit.
1047
01:10:22,208 --> 01:10:25,166
In this segment
of our program, The CIA Story.
1048
01:10:30,333 --> 01:10:33,208
{\an8}The AP used to run an annual convention.
1049
01:10:37,375 --> 01:10:41,000
Every managing editor
of the newspapers was there.
1050
01:10:41,083 --> 01:10:42,666
Thank you very much.
1051
01:10:42,750 --> 01:10:45,416
I am, in a way,
a managing editor, too.
1052
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:49,083
Around 6:00, I go down
and have an editorial conference
1053
01:10:49,166 --> 01:10:52,416
with the various people
that put out our publications.
1054
01:10:52,500 --> 01:10:53,791
The President's brief,
1055
01:10:53,875 --> 01:10:55,833
the publication we put out
1056
01:10:55,916 --> 01:10:58,458
for a broader group
of Washingtonians.
1057
01:10:58,541 --> 01:10:59,958
With the credibility problems
1058
01:11:00,041 --> 01:11:02,500
that our people have had
about government,
1059
01:11:02,583 --> 01:11:04,958
it is quite natural that
they would expect to find
1060
01:11:05,041 --> 01:11:06,708
wrongdoing, cover-up,
1061
01:11:06,791 --> 01:11:10,666
and all the rest of those things
in the intelligence business.
1062
01:11:10,750 --> 01:11:14,000
And therefore, there is
great attention and excitement
1063
01:11:14,083 --> 01:11:17,833
when the veil of secrecy
is lifted, even a little bit.
1064
01:11:17,916 --> 01:11:20,250
Now this, I think,
is understandable,
1065
01:11:20,333 --> 01:11:23,125
but I do ask for some proportion
in the way,
1066
01:11:23,208 --> 01:11:25,208
particularly you,
ladies and gentlemen,
1067
01:11:25,291 --> 01:11:26,833
go at it in your job.
1068
01:11:28,875 --> 01:11:30,958
I think the story Mr. Colby's
referring to, of course,
1069
01:11:31,041 --> 01:11:32,833
is the domestic spying story.
1070
01:11:32,916 --> 01:11:36,125
Get this, they get
something like 650 pages
1071
01:11:36,791 --> 01:11:38,833
of evidence
of domestic wrongdoing
1072
01:11:38,916 --> 01:11:41,166
or allegations
of domestic wrongdoing,
1073
01:11:41,916 --> 01:11:44,375
which was sat on,
1074
01:11:44,458 --> 01:11:46,166
until that newspaper story
came out.
1075
01:11:46,250 --> 01:11:48,250
And I think what's needed,
frankly and honestly,
1076
01:11:48,333 --> 01:11:49,916
as an American citizen,
1077
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:51,708
is a wipe out at the top.
1078
01:11:51,791 --> 01:11:53,083
You've got to get new people in.
1079
01:11:53,166 --> 01:11:56,958
And that's the way it is.
That's the way I see it.
1080
01:11:57,041 --> 01:11:58,500
So long.
1081
01:12:06,458 --> 01:12:08,041
All right. Thanks.
1082
01:12:08,916 --> 01:12:11,541
The abrupt firing
of Defense Secretary Schlesinger
1083
01:12:11,625 --> 01:12:13,166
and CIA Director Colby
1084
01:12:13,250 --> 01:12:16,833
sent shockwaves through
the U.S. intelligence establishment.
1085
01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:23,625
President Ford has named George Bush
1086
01:12:23,708 --> 01:12:26,291
to succeed Colby
as CIA Chief.
1087
01:12:39,250 --> 01:12:40,708
The one thing about Sy is
1088
01:12:40,791 --> 01:12:43,708
he's very complicated
and unpredictable.
1089
01:12:44,625 --> 01:12:46,666
And so,
depending upon the situation,
1090
01:12:46,750 --> 01:12:48,583
he could be quiet and tame,
1091
01:12:48,666 --> 01:12:50,958
or he could be
bouncing off the wall.
1092
01:12:51,041 --> 01:12:55,250
There's really no
one Sy Hersh M.O. other than
1093
01:12:55,333 --> 01:12:59,541
he takes notes in a way
that are unintelligible.
1094
01:13:04,083 --> 01:13:05,541
I was in New York,
1095
01:13:05,625 --> 01:13:07,791
and I wanted to do
something different.
1096
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,500
I started writing about corporations.
1097
01:13:15,375 --> 01:13:17,041
It was just
a totally different world,
1098
01:13:17,125 --> 01:13:18,958
and I knew nothing about it.
1099
01:13:21,083 --> 01:13:23,375
I heard about this fellow,
Jeff Gerth.
1100
01:13:23,458 --> 01:13:24,708
He was a freelance writer
1101
01:13:24,791 --> 01:13:27,208
who was writing for
an underground newspaper,
1102
01:13:27,291 --> 01:13:28,291
and he knew a lot.
1103
01:13:28,375 --> 01:13:29,875
So we became a team.
1104
01:13:30,750 --> 01:13:32,583
It was fun to do something
with somebody else.
1105
01:13:32,666 --> 01:13:34,333
I'd been a loner so long.
1106
01:13:36,416 --> 01:13:38,541
Sy had some sort of appeal,
1107
01:13:38,625 --> 01:13:40,166
I'm not sure I could explain it all,
1108
01:13:40,250 --> 01:13:42,708
but, you know,
a lot of people knew who he was
1109
01:13:42,791 --> 01:13:48,416
and it almost became enticing
for people to want to...
1110
01:13:48,500 --> 01:13:50,791
"Oh, Sy Hersh is investigating this.
1111
01:13:50,875 --> 01:13:53,000
I want to talk to him."
1112
01:13:53,083 --> 01:13:55,125
Even if they knew
1113
01:13:55,208 --> 01:13:57,583
it was going to be some tough questions
1114
01:13:57,666 --> 01:13:59,833
and they might not come out
looking too good.
1115
01:14:01,666 --> 01:14:04,333
The New York Times had never done
1116
01:14:04,416 --> 01:14:07,250
a major investigation of a corporation.
1117
01:14:07,750 --> 01:14:09,833
The editors were nervous.
1118
01:14:10,958 --> 01:14:12,250
That was the beginning of the end
1119
01:14:12,333 --> 01:14:13,458
with me at The New York Times
1120
01:14:13,541 --> 01:14:14,958
when I started to write
about corporations.
1121
01:14:15,041 --> 01:14:16,541
There was just no question.
It was just horrible.
1122
01:14:20,583 --> 01:14:22,000
Before that, I could say,
"I'm doing this,"
1123
01:14:22,083 --> 01:14:24,458
and, "Go ahead. Godspeed, go get it."
1124
01:14:24,541 --> 01:14:26,416
But when it came to corporations,
1125
01:14:26,500 --> 01:14:28,291
"Why are you doing it? What? Why?"
1126
01:14:28,375 --> 01:14:30,541
{\an8}So I had to write
a bullshit note like this
1127
01:14:30,625 --> 01:14:33,375
{\an8}to the national editor
about why I wanted to do it.
1128
01:14:36,291 --> 01:14:37,625
I see what I wrote.
1129
01:14:37,708 --> 01:14:39,625
"Part of the Sy Hersh continuing saga
1130
01:14:39,708 --> 01:14:41,208
of how the world really works,
1131
01:14:41,791 --> 01:14:43,500
or in this case,
more than you'll ever want to know
1132
01:14:43,583 --> 01:14:44,708
about Gulf and Western."
1133
01:14:48,708 --> 01:14:51,583
Gulf and Western
was a high-flying conglomerate
1134
01:14:51,666 --> 01:14:54,416
that had started out
as an industrial company
1135
01:14:54,500 --> 01:14:55,958
that had continued buying
1136
01:14:56,041 --> 01:14:58,916
{\an8}all these no-name
industrial companies
1137
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,958
{\an8}and had then moved into
the movie business
1138
01:15:02,041 --> 01:15:03,541
{\an8}and Simon and Schuster
1139
01:15:03,625 --> 01:15:06,583
{\an8}and it moved up into
sort of the Hollywood
1140
01:15:06,666 --> 01:15:08,541
celebrity status.
1141
01:15:11,375 --> 01:15:13,708
It was a new kind of corporation,
1142
01:15:13,791 --> 01:15:15,166
in which they had different parts
1143
01:15:15,250 --> 01:15:17,833
that had nothing to do
with the core business.
1144
01:15:22,416 --> 01:15:26,416
And they have enormous latitude to play.
1145
01:15:26,500 --> 01:15:29,875
They can hide money,
and they can hide profits.
1146
01:15:38,333 --> 01:15:40,250
{\an8}I had gone to business school,
1147
01:15:40,333 --> 01:15:42,708
{\an8}and I was the one
who read the proxy statements
1148
01:15:42,791 --> 01:15:45,958
{\an8}and the 10-Ks
and a lot of the litigation.
1149
01:15:47,291 --> 01:15:50,500
We found fraud, corruption.
1150
01:15:50,583 --> 01:15:52,583
This was not going to be a friendly story,
1151
01:15:52,666 --> 01:15:54,791
and the newspaper didn't want to do it.
1152
01:15:56,333 --> 01:15:59,250
It said things about corporate America
1153
01:16:00,375 --> 01:16:02,708
that The New York Times,
as part of corporate America,
1154
01:16:02,791 --> 01:16:04,166
you know, didn't like.
1155
01:16:04,250 --> 01:16:09,000
And then Gerth,
for reasons known only to Gerth,
1156
01:16:09,083 --> 01:16:11,625
decided he'd read
all the corporation filings
1157
01:16:11,708 --> 01:16:12,750
of The New York Times,
1158
01:16:12,833 --> 01:16:14,375
and he said, "Oh, my God,
1159
01:16:14,458 --> 01:16:18,916
Abe, your buddy Abe,
had bought a new penthouse,"
1160
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:20,916
and the board of directors
had given him a loan
1161
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,416
at one-half the prime rate,
or something like that.
1162
01:16:25,333 --> 01:16:27,041
And I said, well, look,
we got a problem here.
1163
01:16:27,125 --> 01:16:30,750
We're writing about favorable
bank loans to a top executive,
1164
01:16:31,375 --> 01:16:33,750
and we've got a similar situation
1165
01:16:33,833 --> 01:16:35,333
with The New York Times.
1166
01:16:35,833 --> 01:16:38,583
So I lost it. I was so angry.
1167
01:16:38,666 --> 01:16:40,333
And I went screaming at Abe,
1168
01:16:40,416 --> 01:16:43,125
"Are you crazy?
You took money from the board?
1169
01:16:43,208 --> 01:16:45,666
You're supposed to be
independent of the board!"
1170
01:16:45,750 --> 01:16:50,458
And Abe then said,
"My lawyer said it's okay."
1171
01:16:50,541 --> 01:16:53,125
And that's when I said,
"That's what every crook
1172
01:16:53,208 --> 01:16:54,916
I've ever talked to in my life tells me!"
1173
01:16:57,250 --> 01:16:59,833
Sy has found a way
1174
01:16:59,916 --> 01:17:02,208
of trying to get people's attention,
1175
01:17:02,791 --> 01:17:05,666
and... ...screaming
is certainly one way to do it.
1176
01:17:05,750 --> 01:17:08,500
It's not his only tool,
1177
01:17:09,750 --> 01:17:12,791
but he definitely has
a short fuse sometimes.
1178
01:17:12,875 --> 01:17:14,291
I won't say he threatens people,
1179
01:17:14,375 --> 01:17:16,833
but he definitely ups the temperature.
1180
01:17:16,916 --> 01:17:19,625
Um, I mean, Gulf and Western
would say he threatened them.
1181
01:17:22,541 --> 01:17:26,291
In conversations
with one of their top executives,
1182
01:17:26,375 --> 01:17:27,708
Sy pissed him off.
1183
01:17:27,791 --> 01:17:31,208
{\an8}And he wrote a very threatening
letter to the newspaper.
1184
01:17:41,791 --> 01:17:44,625
The editors put us through
absolute insanities
1185
01:17:44,708 --> 01:17:46,083
to get it in paper.
1186
01:17:46,166 --> 01:17:48,083
They tried everything they could.
1187
01:17:54,791 --> 01:17:57,083
They said,
"We need an extra source for everything,"
1188
01:17:57,166 --> 01:17:59,291
at the last minute, after editing it.
1189
01:17:59,375 --> 01:18:01,166
They still didn't want to publish it.
1190
01:18:03,625 --> 01:18:06,583
You want to know why I quit?
1191
01:18:06,666 --> 01:18:09,125
Why I left? That's a major factor.
1192
01:18:11,541 --> 01:18:12,791
Let's put it this way.
1193
01:18:12,875 --> 01:18:15,166
There was no farewell party for me
1194
01:18:15,250 --> 01:18:16,666
when I left the paper.
1195
01:18:19,541 --> 01:18:21,250
Does it bother you
when somebody...
1196
01:18:21,333 --> 01:18:23,041
{\an8}Really, I mean, we're going
to get calls this morning.
1197
01:18:23,125 --> 01:18:24,875
{\an8}I guarantee you
that people don't like you.
1198
01:18:24,958 --> 01:18:27,250
{\an8}Does that bother you, or do you
think that's part of the game?
1199
01:18:27,833 --> 01:18:31,916
{\an8}I don't like it. I don't like...
I weep and moan and all the...
1200
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:33,708
{\an8}I get some
wonderfully nasty reviews.
1201
01:18:33,791 --> 01:18:34,958
{\an8}Some are very funny.
1202
01:18:35,041 --> 01:18:36,791
{\an8}Our first call's from
Boise, Idaho this morning.
1203
01:18:36,875 --> 01:18:37,916
{\an8}Good morning.
1204
01:18:38,833 --> 01:18:40,458
{\an8}- You're on the air.
- Morning, Brian. This is Bill.
1205
01:18:40,541 --> 01:18:42,000
{\an8}Yeah, Bill.
1206
01:18:42,083 --> 01:18:44,541
{\an8}I just wanted
to make a comment.
1207
01:18:46,125 --> 01:18:48,166
{\an8}I heard Mr. Hersh
make a statement.
1208
01:18:48,250 --> 01:18:53,375
{\an8}I just wanted him to know
that it's guys like him
1209
01:18:55,458 --> 01:18:57,833
{\an8}that I think
should be shipped out.
1210
01:18:57,916 --> 01:19:00,375
{\an8}When you say shipped out,
what do you mean by that?
1211
01:19:00,458 --> 01:19:04,208
{\an8}Well, I think Havana would be
a good stop for the first stop.
1212
01:19:04,291 --> 01:19:05,708
{\an8}But what do you object to
the most?
1213
01:19:05,791 --> 01:19:06,666
{\an8}Huh?
1214
01:19:06,750 --> 01:19:09,000
{\an8}What do you object to the most
in Mr. Hersh?
1215
01:19:11,208 --> 01:19:13,583
{\an8}I guess we lost him.
Well, he made his point.
1216
01:19:13,666 --> 01:19:15,416
{\an8}- Havana.
- Havana.
1217
01:19:15,916 --> 01:19:17,375
{\an8}What do you say
to people like that?
1218
01:19:17,458 --> 01:19:20,208
{\an8}I'll tell you my attitude, sir.
Again, with all due respect,
1219
01:19:20,291 --> 01:19:22,541
{\an8}I have as much right to be here
as you do, buddy.
1220
01:19:29,000 --> 01:19:31,750
I saw the limits of daily journalism.
There is a limit.
1221
01:19:32,791 --> 01:19:36,083
You just can't do as much
if you're publishing something
1222
01:19:36,166 --> 01:19:38,041
and it appears in print the next day.
1223
01:19:41,708 --> 01:19:43,166
There's something about a book,
1224
01:19:43,250 --> 01:19:45,833
where you're not
blurting out things right away,
1225
01:19:45,916 --> 01:19:48,458
and you think longer and harder about it.
1226
01:19:52,875 --> 01:19:55,458
Every book I did got people mad.
1227
01:20:09,208 --> 01:20:11,833
Particularly the one
about John F. Kennedy.
1228
01:20:21,625 --> 01:20:24,208
This book of yours has been described
1229
01:20:24,291 --> 01:20:26,833
as everything from evil to fictitious.
1230
01:20:26,916 --> 01:20:29,625
Why is it that historians and journalists
1231
01:20:29,708 --> 01:20:31,375
find your work so distasteful?
1232
01:20:31,458 --> 01:20:33,333
You know, the attacks
are not just that you wrote
1233
01:20:33,416 --> 01:20:35,375
a shoddy piece of work,
1234
01:20:35,458 --> 01:20:37,166
but that you're in it for the bucks.
1235
01:20:37,250 --> 01:20:39,208
Well, I mean, look,
I can just make some guesses.
1236
01:20:39,291 --> 01:20:41,250
You know, if you're a member
of the press corps
1237
01:20:41,333 --> 01:20:43,125
who was around in '60 to '63,
1238
01:20:43,208 --> 01:20:45,041
what am I saying about your job?
1239
01:20:45,125 --> 01:20:47,500
How you did it? I'm saying something bad.
1240
01:20:50,625 --> 01:20:52,291
This is a book that,
if I did it right,
1241
01:20:52,375 --> 01:20:53,875
was going to be
a sure hit.
1242
01:20:57,958 --> 01:20:59,166
Are you up and running, Mark?
1243
01:20:59,250 --> 01:21:00,416
Yep.
1244
01:21:00,500 --> 01:21:02,583
You worked the Lawford house,
1245
01:21:02,666 --> 01:21:04,083
beach house?
1246
01:21:04,666 --> 01:21:06,958
- You saw Monroe there?
- Yes.
1247
01:21:07,041 --> 01:21:10,041
And did you know that
she and the President were together?
1248
01:21:10,125 --> 01:21:12,958
We had no access to the house,
1249
01:21:13,041 --> 01:21:16,666
so we didn't see
what was happening in the house.
1250
01:21:16,750 --> 01:21:18,708
But the assumption was that
1251
01:21:18,791 --> 01:21:21,833
he was having an affair
with Marilyn Monroe.
1252
01:21:22,333 --> 01:21:23,750
Okay, can we do off the record?
1253
01:21:23,833 --> 01:21:25,791
Sure. We can do what you want.
1254
01:21:27,333 --> 01:21:29,041
When I was helping Sy
with the Kennedy book,
1255
01:21:29,125 --> 01:21:32,166
he came and said,
"You'll never believe this."
1256
01:21:32,250 --> 01:21:36,291
And he had gotten a hold
1257
01:21:36,375 --> 01:21:40,083
of some long-lost letters
of JFK and Marilyn Monroe.
1258
01:21:40,833 --> 01:21:42,666
This was gold.
1259
01:21:43,750 --> 01:21:47,458
They were in the collection
of a man named Lex Cusack.
1260
01:21:48,500 --> 01:21:50,166
But as it turned out,
1261
01:21:50,250 --> 01:21:54,875
it was fool's gold,
because Cusack was a forger.
1262
01:21:54,958 --> 01:21:57,666
And he had produced these letters.
1263
01:21:58,833 --> 01:22:01,166
Sy had been snookered.
1264
01:22:01,250 --> 01:22:03,500
He had maybe talked to too many people
1265
01:22:03,583 --> 01:22:05,833
about these papers that he'd found,
1266
01:22:06,958 --> 01:22:09,041
but he had not published them.
1267
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:12,583
It was almost career destruction.
1268
01:22:13,916 --> 01:22:15,500
So how do you feel?
1269
01:22:15,583 --> 01:22:17,875
Like a dupe, idiot.
1270
01:22:17,958 --> 01:22:20,083
And secondly, horribly relieved,
1271
01:22:20,166 --> 01:22:22,208
because it meant you could, you know...
1272
01:22:22,291 --> 01:22:24,208
It cleared up a whole number
1273
01:22:24,291 --> 01:22:26,583
of impossible to reconcile issues for us.
1274
01:22:28,583 --> 01:22:30,958
Of course, they had to be verified,
1275
01:22:31,041 --> 01:22:32,791
and the fact that they weren't true
1276
01:22:32,875 --> 01:22:34,666
was just that's part of the process.
1277
01:22:38,166 --> 01:22:40,875
{\an8}Lex Cusack went to jail for nine years.
1278
01:22:44,583 --> 01:22:46,333
In my position, I'd want to minimize it,
1279
01:22:46,416 --> 01:22:47,625
but I always thought
1280
01:22:47,708 --> 01:22:49,750
that the day
I don't chase a story like that
1281
01:22:49,833 --> 01:22:50,958
is the day I'm dead.
1282
01:22:53,916 --> 01:22:58,583
I was a fact checker
at The New Yorker when I met Sy.
1283
01:22:58,666 --> 01:22:59,833
I got to know him at a point
1284
01:22:59,916 --> 01:23:02,375
where I think he was a little vulnerable
1285
01:23:02,458 --> 01:23:05,833
and talking a lot about his process.
1286
01:23:07,375 --> 01:23:09,500
{\an8}Sy was the subject of a story
1287
01:23:09,583 --> 01:23:11,583
{\an8}about his JFK book.
1288
01:23:12,083 --> 01:23:15,125
{\an8}It was a piece that was not uncritical.
1289
01:23:16,125 --> 01:23:17,166
It's been suggested that
1290
01:23:17,250 --> 01:23:18,916
you didn't really follow
the facts where they led,
1291
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:21,208
that you had a story
and you wanted to fit the facts to them.
1292
01:23:21,291 --> 01:23:22,416
Did you have a story in your mind
1293
01:23:22,500 --> 01:23:23,541
before you started the book?
1294
01:23:23,625 --> 01:23:24,958
Totally different one, of course.
1295
01:23:25,041 --> 01:23:26,708
Sy, you stand to make
a lot of money from this book.
1296
01:23:26,791 --> 01:23:29,250
It's a big book.
There's an ABC special coming up.
1297
01:23:29,333 --> 01:23:32,250
Did the prospect of that
big payday in any way...
1298
01:23:33,375 --> 01:23:36,666
pressure you to push
some of the evidence
1299
01:23:36,750 --> 01:23:38,333
further than perhaps you should have?
1300
01:23:38,416 --> 01:23:40,916
- Is that what you would do?
- Well...
1301
01:23:41,625 --> 01:23:42,958
Is it? I mean,
1302
01:23:43,041 --> 01:23:44,666
is that what you would do
as a professional journalist?
1303
01:23:44,750 --> 01:23:46,625
I wonder if there's a temptation.
1304
01:23:46,708 --> 01:23:48,083
Would you have that temptation?
1305
01:23:48,166 --> 01:23:50,416
Why would I, if you don't think you would?
1306
01:23:52,750 --> 01:23:56,291
It's definitely
a cautionary tale for journalism,
1307
01:23:56,375 --> 01:23:59,500
but also for Sy and his strengths
1308
01:23:59,583 --> 01:24:03,875
and his things that maybe
are not necessarily strengths.
1309
01:24:15,500 --> 01:24:18,166
In case anybody cares,
this is less and less fun.
1310
01:24:24,916 --> 01:24:26,958
I started writing for Substack.
1311
01:24:29,291 --> 01:24:30,958
There might be a lot
of questions about, you know,
1312
01:24:31,041 --> 01:24:33,416
what's Hersh doing slumming,
or whatever you want to call it.
1313
01:24:33,500 --> 01:24:35,958
But I'm perfect for them. I'm an outsider.
1314
01:24:43,208 --> 01:24:44,791
Who is behind the bombing
1315
01:24:44,875 --> 01:24:46,541
of the Nord Stream pipelines?
1316
01:24:46,625 --> 01:24:49,708
One of the great mysteries
of the past year.
1317
01:24:50,541 --> 01:24:53,416
Sy Hersh cites an unnamed source
1318
01:24:53,500 --> 01:24:57,291
who says the sabotage was
carried out by the U.S. Navy.
1319
01:24:57,375 --> 01:24:59,625
Hersh reports the Biden administration
1320
01:24:59,708 --> 01:25:01,750
began planning the act of sabotage
1321
01:25:01,833 --> 01:25:03,583
in December 2021,
1322
01:25:03,666 --> 01:25:06,833
two months before
Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
1323
01:25:08,041 --> 01:25:09,125
I'm sure you're aware
1324
01:25:09,208 --> 01:25:10,541
of the new report from Seymour Hersh,
1325
01:25:10,625 --> 01:25:13,083
"How America Took Out
the Nord Stream Pipeline."
1326
01:25:13,166 --> 01:25:15,500
- Did you read the piece?
- I'm familiar with it.
1327
01:25:15,583 --> 01:25:17,500
Beyond getting his facts entirely wrong,
1328
01:25:17,583 --> 01:25:21,875
as he has before
in very high-profile ways,
1329
01:25:21,958 --> 01:25:24,250
it is a fundamental
misunderstanding to suggest
1330
01:25:24,333 --> 01:25:27,083
that our intelligence community
is not subject to oversight.
1331
01:25:31,458 --> 01:25:34,166
The attack is... It's a single source.
1332
01:25:34,250 --> 01:25:36,791
Right. Which has been the criticism.
1333
01:25:37,625 --> 01:25:38,833
So what?
1334
01:25:39,416 --> 01:25:42,208
So what? It's a legitimate criticism, absolutely.
1335
01:25:42,291 --> 01:25:43,291
You know. Right?
1336
01:25:43,375 --> 01:25:46,041
- Say more.
- Yeah. What do I, I mean, I...
1337
01:25:46,583 --> 01:25:47,791
I mean, it is a legitimate...
1338
01:25:47,875 --> 01:25:49,208
The only point I'm saying is that,
1339
01:25:49,291 --> 01:25:52,583
of course, there was,
what am I going to do?
1340
01:25:52,666 --> 01:25:54,541
I can't write about who I know else
1341
01:25:54,625 --> 01:25:56,291
was brought in
from the Army, the Air Force,
1342
01:25:56,375 --> 01:25:58,041
because I'm exposing them.
1343
01:25:58,583 --> 01:25:59,958
Even if there's nine sources,
1344
01:26:00,041 --> 01:26:01,875
sometimes it's much better
just to make it one.
1345
01:26:01,958 --> 01:26:03,458
I'm sorry to tell you that.
1346
01:26:03,541 --> 01:26:05,583
Well, because you don't want to talk...
1347
01:26:05,666 --> 01:26:07,833
you don't want,
"Sources in the State Department
1348
01:26:07,916 --> 01:26:09,291
and the CIA both agree..."
1349
01:26:09,375 --> 01:26:13,166
What if the source got it wrong?
1350
01:26:13,250 --> 01:26:15,333
And it's a single source?
What do you do?
1351
01:26:15,416 --> 01:26:18,125
Then I've got 20 years
of working with a guy
1352
01:26:18,208 --> 01:26:19,833
that I've been wrong on.
1353
01:26:26,541 --> 01:26:29,875
Time after time, I'm told things
that turn out to be right.
1354
01:26:38,583 --> 01:26:39,458
Yes.
1355
01:26:39,541 --> 01:26:41,791
This is it, right? Or one of them.
1356
01:26:41,875 --> 01:26:43,833
There's, there's two or three of them.
1357
01:26:49,250 --> 01:26:51,416
Here's the problem with this stuff.
1358
01:26:51,500 --> 01:26:53,375
In one page, you got three people
1359
01:26:53,458 --> 01:26:55,791
that are absolutely private,
confidential sources.
1360
01:26:55,875 --> 01:26:57,583
These are all people that
1361
01:26:57,666 --> 01:26:59,500
I would never mention their names.
1362
01:26:59,583 --> 01:27:00,583
I can't do it.
1363
01:27:01,291 --> 01:27:04,250
So I don't know what to tell you.
1364
01:27:04,333 --> 01:27:07,000
Putting their name out there
would be murderous.
1365
01:27:07,083 --> 01:27:08,083
Look at this.
1366
01:27:08,166 --> 01:27:10,208
I don't know how this stuff
slipped into your file,
1367
01:27:10,291 --> 01:27:11,458
but you got them.
1368
01:27:12,750 --> 01:27:15,625
This has gone way beyond
I ever thought would happen.
1369
01:27:16,583 --> 01:27:19,416
And it's not good for me.
It's not good for my people.
1370
01:27:20,458 --> 01:27:23,666
What the fuck is this doing in your hands?
You know.
1371
01:27:23,750 --> 01:27:26,166
I'm looking at it, thinking this is...
What is this?
1372
01:27:26,250 --> 01:27:28,958
Now, I'll go home,
and I look at these things and,
1373
01:27:30,333 --> 01:27:34,083
this is an FBI guy,
but most of them are CIA guys.
1374
01:27:34,875 --> 01:27:37,000
I think I have some sense
of some of these people,
1375
01:27:37,083 --> 01:27:40,083
and I don't think we're
in a position at any point
1376
01:27:40,166 --> 01:27:41,708
or we're intending at any point
1377
01:27:41,791 --> 01:27:42,916
to jeopardize any of these people.
1378
01:27:43,000 --> 01:27:45,375
Well, I'd like to quit. I'd like to quit.
1379
01:27:45,458 --> 01:27:47,333
Look, I made a contract with you.
1380
01:27:47,416 --> 01:27:49,750
I'm doing it. I've been very faithful.
I'm very good.
1381
01:27:49,833 --> 01:27:50,916
Sy, hold on.
1382
01:27:51,000 --> 01:27:52,375
I probably shouldn't
have started with you,
1383
01:27:52,458 --> 01:27:53,791
but you came to me 20 years ago,
1384
01:27:53,875 --> 01:27:56,041
and I said to you all,
when I'm ready, I'll do it.
1385
01:27:56,125 --> 01:27:58,625
And then you asked me again,
and I thought, why not do it?
1386
01:27:59,208 --> 01:28:00,458
But I'm ambivalent about it.
1387
01:28:00,541 --> 01:28:02,958
You guys, you know too much
about what I'm doing.
1388
01:28:03,041 --> 01:28:04,375
You have too many people.
1389
01:28:04,458 --> 01:28:06,625
There's people there you
don't even realize who they are,
1390
01:28:06,708 --> 01:28:09,125
some of them,
but they're in it, and I don't...
1391
01:28:09,208 --> 01:28:11,000
I'm in a position now
I'm not telling you stuff.
1392
01:28:11,083 --> 01:28:12,208
So I'd like to quit.
1393
01:28:12,833 --> 01:28:14,458
Maybe we should... Should we cut?
1394
01:28:14,541 --> 01:28:16,166
What? No, let's just quit it.
1395
01:28:16,250 --> 01:28:17,583
Just cut the cameras, please.
1396
01:28:17,666 --> 01:28:18,833
We're just going to cut cameras.
1397
01:29:11,333 --> 01:29:13,416
This isn't easy for you.
1398
01:29:18,625 --> 01:29:21,333
I was very happy
not talking about myself.
1399
01:29:22,291 --> 01:29:23,750
Very happy.
1400
01:29:24,666 --> 01:29:28,500
And I'm doing it, and so...
1401
01:29:29,500 --> 01:29:34,583
There are some days
I'm really irritated at myself,
1402
01:29:35,333 --> 01:29:40,166
but if you do something,
you have to do it 100%.
1403
01:29:40,250 --> 01:29:43,000
There's no ambivalence.
1404
01:29:43,083 --> 01:29:44,708
Yeah, there's always ambivalence.
1405
01:29:44,791 --> 01:29:46,500
But forget about ambivalence.
1406
01:29:47,333 --> 01:29:49,333
You know, I gave you my notebooks.
1407
01:29:49,958 --> 01:29:51,375
And so, that's where we are.
1408
01:29:54,958 --> 01:29:56,500
Let's set the record straight.
1409
01:29:58,166 --> 01:29:59,208
I don't leave everything.
1410
01:29:59,291 --> 01:30:00,791
I've been married, you know, 60 years.
1411
01:30:00,875 --> 01:30:03,375
So let's get that clear.
It's not that I leave everything.
1412
01:30:04,541 --> 01:30:06,375
Some things I stick to.
1413
01:30:20,166 --> 01:30:21,708
We have very few words
1414
01:30:21,791 --> 01:30:24,750
from you talking about Elizabeth.
1415
01:30:26,416 --> 01:30:30,041
It's complicated
because she's a psychoanalyst.
1416
01:30:30,125 --> 01:30:32,583
She has a very strong commitment
1417
01:30:32,666 --> 01:30:35,208
to the confidentiality of her office.
1418
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:41,833
So what can we say?
1419
01:30:42,541 --> 01:30:43,833
She's a very special person.
1420
01:30:43,916 --> 01:30:45,375
Let's just put it that way.
1421
01:30:46,958 --> 01:30:48,791
And she waited for me to grow up.
1422
01:30:48,875 --> 01:30:50,291
I think that's fair.
1423
01:30:50,375 --> 01:30:52,875
I was always a little bit in outer space.
1424
01:30:57,416 --> 01:31:00,166
I'm not a wacko.
I have a family with children.
1425
01:31:10,750 --> 01:31:12,833
I couldn't have married better,
1426
01:31:12,916 --> 01:31:14,708
because there was somebody
always there
1427
01:31:14,791 --> 01:31:16,208
to put things in focus.
1428
01:31:18,791 --> 01:31:22,625
I'm obviously a high-octane person.
1429
01:31:22,708 --> 01:31:27,791
And so, you know,
I married the right person
1430
01:31:27,875 --> 01:31:30,000
who can calm me down
1431
01:31:31,291 --> 01:31:36,375
and keep me
from going into total despair.
1432
01:31:36,458 --> 01:31:39,500
There were often times it was so sad.
1433
01:31:39,583 --> 01:31:41,291
I was writing such terrible stuff.
1434
01:31:43,958 --> 01:31:46,958
There were moments
when I was doing the My Lai reporting.
1435
01:31:48,208 --> 01:31:50,125
I would hear about throwing up
two-year-old kids
1436
01:31:50,208 --> 01:31:51,916
and catching them on bayonets.
1437
01:31:53,875 --> 01:31:57,791
And I had a two-year-old...
1438
01:31:57,875 --> 01:32:00,583
That's the first time I couldn't take it.
1439
01:32:00,666 --> 01:32:02,708
And so I call Liz up
1440
01:32:02,791 --> 01:32:06,541
and I said, "I don't know.
I don't think I can take it."
1441
01:32:06,625 --> 01:32:10,208
And she said, "It has nothing to do
1442
01:32:10,291 --> 01:32:13,291
with your son or me or...
1443
01:32:13,375 --> 01:32:15,333
It has nothing to do with it."
1444
01:32:15,416 --> 01:32:17,875
"It's not about your children."
1445
01:32:17,958 --> 01:32:20,208
So that was helpful.
1446
01:32:20,291 --> 01:32:21,458
She would get me through
1447
01:32:21,541 --> 01:32:23,958
when I'm in a crying jag
in a pay phone.
1448
01:32:25,458 --> 01:32:30,333
I despair a lot sometimes. And so, um...
1449
01:32:32,583 --> 01:32:34,500
I was very lucky to marry her.
1450
01:32:41,750 --> 01:32:43,000
I'll take The Times.
1451
01:32:43,750 --> 01:32:45,625
I leave The Post for her.
1452
01:33:00,666 --> 01:33:03,291
I've been writing about Syria
because, obviously,
1453
01:33:04,833 --> 01:33:07,250
I was pretty shocked it fell so quickly.
1454
01:33:09,375 --> 01:33:11,625
{\an8}I read this stuff now,
and I say to myself,
1455
01:33:11,708 --> 01:33:13,208
{\an8}I really misjudged him.
1456
01:33:15,083 --> 01:33:18,333
{\an8}It's been so long,
I haven't seen this article in years.
1457
01:33:20,750 --> 01:33:23,125
I wrote stories
for the London Review.
1458
01:33:23,208 --> 01:33:26,916
There were reports that
Assad nerve-gassed his own people.
1459
01:33:29,458 --> 01:33:31,166
I saw him two or three or four times,
1460
01:33:31,250 --> 01:33:33,416
and I didn't think he was capable
1461
01:33:33,500 --> 01:33:34,875
of doing what he did.
1462
01:33:35,666 --> 01:33:36,916
Period.
1463
01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:39,916
And let's call that wrong.
1464
01:33:40,500 --> 01:33:42,500
Let's call that very much wrong.
1465
01:33:42,583 --> 01:33:45,291
But is that an example
of getting too close to power?
1466
01:33:45,375 --> 01:33:48,250
Of course. What else is it?
1467
01:33:51,375 --> 01:33:54,041
The human rights people were all over him.
1468
01:33:54,958 --> 01:33:56,583
I never thought he was Mother Teresa,
1469
01:33:56,666 --> 01:33:58,208
but I thought he was okay.
1470
01:34:00,250 --> 01:34:01,791
But if I have made a claim
1471
01:34:01,875 --> 01:34:03,375
in prior interviews to be perfect,
1472
01:34:03,458 --> 01:34:06,541
I would now withdraw it,
that's all. I wasn't perfect.
1473
01:34:39,750 --> 01:34:41,250
It's now about five days
1474
01:34:41,333 --> 01:34:45,875
since the major ground forces
entered Iraq.
1475
01:34:48,125 --> 01:34:52,208
It's almost four days and 30 minutes ago
1476
01:34:52,291 --> 01:34:53,875
that the air war began.
1477
01:34:55,416 --> 01:34:57,125
We're still, needless to say,
1478
01:34:57,208 --> 01:35:00,166
much closer to the beginning than the end.
1479
01:35:04,291 --> 01:35:06,041
I was very much against that war
1480
01:35:06,125 --> 01:35:08,208
because it made no sense.
1481
01:35:11,166 --> 01:35:13,291
But The New Yorker was more willing
1482
01:35:13,375 --> 01:35:15,083
to run stories, puff stories about it,
1483
01:35:15,166 --> 01:35:16,208
and more willing to run,
1484
01:35:16,291 --> 01:35:18,125
perfectly willing to run
my tough stuff about it.
1485
01:35:20,583 --> 01:35:23,541
At some point, I became Sy's main editor
1486
01:35:23,625 --> 01:35:25,833
when he was writing for The New Yorker.
1487
01:35:27,166 --> 01:35:29,750
Right before the invasion of Iraq.
1488
01:35:29,833 --> 01:35:34,750
He just called up and just was
full Sy raging at the heavens.
1489
01:35:35,250 --> 01:35:37,666
I think part of him wondered why
1490
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:40,166
we didn't all collectively throw ourselves
1491
01:35:40,250 --> 01:35:43,125
in front of the machine and make it stop.
1492
01:35:43,208 --> 01:35:44,208
You know, he was like,
1493
01:35:44,291 --> 01:35:46,500
"This is the moral issue of our time."
1494
01:35:46,583 --> 01:35:50,416
And he just thought
it was such a mistake.
1495
01:35:50,500 --> 01:35:52,541
He thought it was such a mistake.
1496
01:35:58,791 --> 01:35:59,791
This is the guy.
1497
01:35:59,875 --> 01:36:01,958
Sadiq's the guy that told me the story.
1498
01:36:03,708 --> 01:36:06,541
Sadiq was a two or three-star general
1499
01:36:06,625 --> 01:36:08,375
in the Iraqi Air Force.
1500
01:36:11,708 --> 01:36:14,250
He asked me, "Do you know about
the prison in Abu Ghraib?"
1501
01:36:20,458 --> 01:36:22,583
He said, "They're arresting everybody
1502
01:36:22,666 --> 01:36:24,458
and sending them to Abu Ghraib."
1503
01:36:26,291 --> 01:36:29,041
People that had nothing to do
with anything.
1504
01:36:31,750 --> 01:36:34,208
There were sexual assaults
1505
01:36:34,291 --> 01:36:36,083
and children were being assaulted.
1506
01:36:36,666 --> 01:36:38,500
Horrifying abuse.
1507
01:36:41,708 --> 01:36:44,125
Months later, I get a call
1508
01:36:44,208 --> 01:36:47,041
from a former Marine intelligence officer
1509
01:36:47,125 --> 01:36:48,500
named Roger Charles.
1510
01:36:49,041 --> 01:36:51,416
He had retired
and was hired by 60 Minutes.
1511
01:36:51,500 --> 01:36:54,083
And so he came to me and said,
"We got a problem."
1512
01:36:54,166 --> 01:36:56,625
He told me about Abu Ghraib,
and I go, "Ah!"
1513
01:36:57,708 --> 01:36:59,041
CBS had photographs.
1514
01:36:59,125 --> 01:37:01,750
They had gotten photographs
from somebody,
1515
01:37:01,833 --> 01:37:04,250
of showing torture,
1516
01:37:04,333 --> 01:37:06,375
but they couldn't get it on the air.
1517
01:37:06,458 --> 01:37:08,041
What's the government doing?
1518
01:37:08,125 --> 01:37:09,666
Well, the government's doing
everything they could
1519
01:37:09,750 --> 01:37:12,958
to stop the story by going
to the executive of CBS
1520
01:37:13,041 --> 01:37:14,875
and telling him,
"You're not going to publish the story,
1521
01:37:14,958 --> 01:37:16,708
because it's going to hurt
the American war."
1522
01:37:17,833 --> 01:37:19,458
I made some calls.
1523
01:37:19,541 --> 01:37:23,833
I learned that one of the GIs
that had been accused,
1524
01:37:23,916 --> 01:37:26,375
the lawyer for him
happened to be a lawyer
1525
01:37:26,458 --> 01:37:28,333
who represented a My Lai kid.
1526
01:37:29,041 --> 01:37:32,000
I went up to New Hampshire to see him,
1527
01:37:32,083 --> 01:37:33,250
and he said to me,
1528
01:37:33,333 --> 01:37:34,833
"You know, there was a report done."
1529
01:37:34,916 --> 01:37:36,208
I said, "What are you talking about?"
1530
01:37:36,291 --> 01:37:38,083
So then he gave me this.
1531
01:37:38,583 --> 01:37:40,166
I mean, you can see,
this is the one he gave me.
1532
01:37:40,250 --> 01:37:42,125
The interview stopped here.
I took the report,
1533
01:37:42,208 --> 01:37:44,250
I started reading it,
and I said, "I'm out of here."
1534
01:37:54,125 --> 01:37:55,458
{\an8}The author of the report
1535
01:37:55,541 --> 01:37:58,125
{\an8}was a two-star general named Tony Taguba.
1536
01:37:59,833 --> 01:38:01,708
I couldn't believe the guts he had.
1537
01:38:01,791 --> 01:38:04,291
He was accusing higher ranking generals
1538
01:38:04,375 --> 01:38:06,041
of gross misconduct.
1539
01:38:09,958 --> 01:38:13,458
Initially started with
a kid in the unit, named Darby.
1540
01:38:13,541 --> 01:38:16,041
He went to the Army
Criminal Investigation Division
1541
01:38:16,125 --> 01:38:17,833
and gave them photographs.
1542
01:38:19,083 --> 01:38:21,125
There were thousands of them.
1543
01:38:26,000 --> 01:38:28,875
I was working late. Sy called,
1544
01:38:28,958 --> 01:38:31,291
and said something like, "I've just...
1545
01:38:32,791 --> 01:38:36,875
read the most devastating Army report."
1546
01:38:40,416 --> 01:38:43,125
The report had been bad enough,
1547
01:38:44,416 --> 01:38:46,500
but then I got photographs.
1548
01:38:48,125 --> 01:38:50,208
They were horrifying.
1549
01:39:09,458 --> 01:39:12,000
The CIA had beaten one prisoner to death.
1550
01:39:26,916 --> 01:39:29,166
I felt we had to tell 60 Minutes.
1551
01:39:30,833 --> 01:39:32,625
So I called up the producer.
1552
01:39:32,708 --> 01:39:34,416
I said, "If you don't do it Thursday,
1553
01:39:34,500 --> 01:39:37,125
on Sunday, we're going to
run the report with pictures
1554
01:39:37,208 --> 01:39:39,083
and say, we're doing this story
1555
01:39:39,166 --> 01:39:42,083
because a major network called CBS
1556
01:39:42,166 --> 01:39:43,916
did not fulfill its obligations.
1557
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:45,583
It's going to be the second paragraph."
1558
01:39:45,666 --> 01:39:47,708
Two weeks ago, we received an appeal
1559
01:39:47,791 --> 01:39:48,958
from the Defense Department
1560
01:39:49,041 --> 01:39:50,291
and eventually from the chairman
1561
01:39:50,375 --> 01:39:52,208
of the Military Joint Chiefs of Staff,
1562
01:39:52,291 --> 01:39:55,291
General Richard Myers,
to delay this broadcast,
1563
01:39:55,375 --> 01:39:58,583
given the danger and tension
on the ground in Iraq.
1564
01:39:58,666 --> 01:40:00,583
We decided to honor that request
1565
01:40:00,666 --> 01:40:02,666
while pressing for the Defense Department
1566
01:40:02,750 --> 01:40:04,166
to add its perspective
1567
01:40:04,250 --> 01:40:06,541
to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison.
1568
01:40:06,625 --> 01:40:08,083
This week, with the photos
1569
01:40:08,166 --> 01:40:10,000
beginning to circulate elsewhere,
1570
01:40:10,083 --> 01:40:11,916
and with other journalists
about to publish
1571
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:13,750
their versions of the story,
1572
01:40:13,833 --> 01:40:17,083
the Defense Department agreed
to cooperate in our report.
1573
01:40:18,458 --> 01:40:20,166
So, they did it.
1574
01:40:20,250 --> 01:40:23,083
And, on Friday, my story came out.
1575
01:40:59,875 --> 01:41:02,666
It went on for about 18 days.
1576
01:41:02,750 --> 01:41:04,250
Was it the same thing every day?
1577
01:41:04,333 --> 01:41:08,541
Every day my schedule was 23 hours
of torture, and one hour of rest.
1578
01:41:09,041 --> 01:41:11,125
And there were many kinds of torture.
1579
01:41:11,208 --> 01:41:13,083
Like these photos--
1580
01:41:13,666 --> 01:41:16,458
I remember being forced
to stand like this.
1581
01:41:16,541 --> 01:41:18,125
With other people.
1582
01:41:18,208 --> 01:41:20,125
I remember being forced
to stand like this.
1583
01:41:22,583 --> 01:41:24,833
They would try to interrogate me.
1584
01:41:24,916 --> 01:41:28,000
And one of the things they'd say...
He threatened me...
1585
01:41:28,083 --> 01:41:33,958
If you don't talk, if you don't confess,
we'll let the soldiers...
1586
01:41:36,791 --> 01:41:38,791
...rape you.
1587
01:41:49,958 --> 01:41:52,833
{\an8}If I could follow up, Mr. Secretary,
1588
01:41:52,916 --> 01:41:54,583
{\an8}Given the ramifications
1589
01:41:54,666 --> 01:41:56,625
{\an8}of not only what is in this report,
1590
01:41:56,708 --> 01:41:57,791
{\an8}the findings specifically,
1591
01:41:57,875 --> 01:41:59,708
{\an8}but the pictures, the photographs
1592
01:41:59,791 --> 01:42:01,500
{\an8}that you knew as of a couple weeks ago
1593
01:42:01,583 --> 01:42:03,083
{\an8}were going to be broadcast.
1594
01:42:03,166 --> 01:42:05,916
{\an8}Why did you not feel incumbent
upon yourself at that time
1595
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:07,250
{\an8}to ask for the findings,
1596
01:42:07,333 --> 01:42:09,000
{\an8}or just take a look
at the pictures beforehand
1597
01:42:09,083 --> 01:42:10,791
{\an8}so you could perhaps
be prepared?
1598
01:42:13,666 --> 01:42:16,791
I think I did inquire about the pictures
1599
01:42:16,875 --> 01:42:19,375
and was told that we didn't have copies.
1600
01:42:19,458 --> 01:42:21,458
Is that not correct?
1601
01:42:21,958 --> 01:42:23,750
We didn't have them here.
1602
01:42:23,833 --> 01:42:25,083
I didn't have them.
1603
01:42:25,166 --> 01:42:26,250
Mr. Secretary,
1604
01:42:26,333 --> 01:42:27,708
a number of times from the podium,
1605
01:42:27,791 --> 01:42:30,708
you've said U.S. troops
do not torture individuals.
1606
01:42:31,375 --> 01:42:33,750
{\an8}Does this report undercut your notion
1607
01:42:33,833 --> 01:42:35,958
{\an8}that the U.S. doesn't torture?
1608
01:42:37,541 --> 01:42:39,291
{\an8}I'm not a lawyer.
1609
01:42:39,375 --> 01:42:41,000
{\an8}My impression is that
1610
01:42:41,083 --> 01:42:43,875
{\an8}what has been charged
thus far is abuse,
1611
01:42:44,833 --> 01:42:48,166
{\an8}which I believe technically
is different from torture.
1612
01:42:48,250 --> 01:42:49,458
{\an8}Just a minute.
1613
01:42:51,958 --> 01:42:56,791
{\an8}I don't know if it is correct
to say what you just said,
1614
01:42:56,875 --> 01:42:58,875
{\an8}that torture has taken place,
1615
01:42:59,375 --> 01:43:02,208
{\an8}and therefore I'm not going to
address the torture word.
1616
01:43:07,333 --> 01:43:08,333
You're listening
1617
01:43:08,416 --> 01:43:10,416
to The Diane Rehm Show.
1618
01:43:10,916 --> 01:43:12,916
You're on the air.
1619
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:14,708
First of all, I want to say,
1620
01:43:14,791 --> 01:43:15,958
especially to Mr. Hersh,
1621
01:43:16,041 --> 01:43:19,416
that in all of this
sanctimonious self-righteousness
1622
01:43:19,500 --> 01:43:21,750
you're doing more to encourage
1623
01:43:21,833 --> 01:43:25,291
the insurgency and terrorist
attacks on Americans.
1624
01:43:25,375 --> 01:43:28,875
Mr. Hersh is clearly partisan.
Let's admit that.
1625
01:43:28,958 --> 01:43:30,583
This is propaganda,
1626
01:43:30,666 --> 01:43:33,916
whether or not it proves
to be true or exaggerated,
1627
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:38,208
and you will be culpable
and responsible directly
1628
01:43:38,291 --> 01:43:40,958
for any backlash that results
1629
01:43:41,041 --> 01:43:42,833
by fanning the flames of this story.
1630
01:43:42,916 --> 01:43:44,000
Sy Hersh.
1631
01:43:44,083 --> 01:43:46,250
Oh, nobody likes the messenger, you know,
1632
01:43:46,333 --> 01:43:49,416
I just don't like American
soldiers torturing people.
1633
01:44:05,500 --> 01:44:09,583
{\an8}We saw what we saw.
We wrote down what we heard.
1634
01:44:13,041 --> 01:44:15,833
{\an8}I didn't know how to react, other than...
1635
01:44:17,625 --> 01:44:19,375
being angry.
1636
01:44:20,458 --> 01:44:22,916
And Rumsfeld accused me
of leaking it.
1637
01:44:23,458 --> 01:44:26,250
I was indignant.
I looked him in the face.
1638
01:44:27,208 --> 01:44:31,125
Then we started
talking about the report.
1639
01:44:31,625 --> 01:44:35,666
You know, why did it happen?
What did you do? Blah blah blah.
1640
01:44:35,750 --> 01:44:40,125
So, I kept repeating it, over time.
1641
01:44:40,208 --> 01:44:44,791
And then somebody asked,
is this torture or is it abuse?
1642
01:44:44,875 --> 01:44:46,458
I said, well,
1643
01:44:46,541 --> 01:44:52,708
there's two distinctive values
when it comes to interrogation.
1644
01:44:52,791 --> 01:44:54,958
Abuse is basically slapping
1645
01:44:55,041 --> 01:44:57,541
or not giving them food
or whatever have you.
1646
01:44:57,625 --> 01:45:00,666
Torture's when you inflict
grievous bodily harm.
1647
01:45:00,750 --> 01:45:02,625
So I give him an example.
1648
01:45:02,708 --> 01:45:07,833
You have a detainee
that's being interrogated naked,
1649
01:45:07,916 --> 01:45:09,708
his clothes were taken away
from him,
1650
01:45:09,791 --> 01:45:11,791
laying down on the floor
1651
01:45:12,875 --> 01:45:17,125
and a broom handle
is being shoved up his rectum
1652
01:45:17,208 --> 01:45:20,291
and he's being kicked
by two civilian interrogators.
1653
01:45:20,875 --> 01:45:23,250
Now that's torture.
1654
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:27,458
It doesn't matter what I believe.
1655
01:45:27,541 --> 01:45:29,583
What matters is what you can find.
1656
01:45:30,416 --> 01:45:33,583
At some point in
an interview with public radio,
1657
01:45:34,416 --> 01:45:37,500
I said, "Here's my phone number.
Just give me a call."
1658
01:45:40,208 --> 01:45:41,333
Get in touch with me.
1659
01:45:41,416 --> 01:45:44,041
202 872-0703, just call.
1660
01:45:44,125 --> 01:45:46,458
Leave a number.
I'll get in touch with you.
1661
01:45:48,833 --> 01:45:51,333
And sure enough, I got
a call a couple hours later
1662
01:45:51,416 --> 01:45:53,791
from a woman that said,
you better come talk to me.
1663
01:45:59,791 --> 01:46:01,625
We met at a Friday's.
1664
01:46:02,375 --> 01:46:05,791
You know, we talked for a little while
1665
01:46:07,166 --> 01:46:11,416
and then I said,
"Well, I have my laptop here.
1666
01:46:11,500 --> 01:46:14,708
I can show you the pictures."
1667
01:46:14,791 --> 01:46:19,375
And we were in a booth
in a relatively private area.
1668
01:46:19,458 --> 01:46:21,625
So I did open the laptop
1669
01:46:21,708 --> 01:46:24,958
and I shared
some of the pictures with him.
1670
01:46:27,291 --> 01:46:30,541
I lent my former
daughter-in-law my laptop
1671
01:46:30,625 --> 01:46:32,916
when she deployed to Iraq.
1672
01:46:33,875 --> 01:46:35,875
So upon her return,
1673
01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:40,416
she returned my laptop
1674
01:46:40,500 --> 01:46:43,916
and I noticed there were a lot
of photographs on the laptop.
1675
01:46:45,916 --> 01:46:47,791
She wasn't involved,
1676
01:46:47,875 --> 01:46:50,000
but she was among many people
1677
01:46:50,083 --> 01:46:52,625
with whom these pictures
were shared.
1678
01:47:03,625 --> 01:47:07,250
The pictures I remember most
1679
01:47:07,333 --> 01:47:12,458
were of a man
being menaced by a dog.
1680
01:47:17,625 --> 01:47:21,625
The fear was so evident.
1681
01:47:35,375 --> 01:47:38,291
I just remember Sy saying to me,
1682
01:47:38,375 --> 01:47:42,625
"You know,
this is really important stuff."
1683
01:47:44,458 --> 01:47:50,208
And "would you be willing
to give me a copy of these?"
1684
01:47:52,083 --> 01:47:57,791
And I was reluctant,
because I was afraid.
1685
01:48:01,250 --> 01:48:04,375
But I wanted
the facts to be exposed.
1686
01:48:04,458 --> 01:48:07,375
I wanted the truth to be exposed.
1687
01:48:11,125 --> 01:48:12,208
What would have happened
1688
01:48:12,291 --> 01:48:14,375
if there hadn't been
photographs?
1689
01:48:14,458 --> 01:48:16,041
If there hadn't been photographs?
1690
01:48:16,541 --> 01:48:17,625
No story.
1691
01:48:30,625 --> 01:48:31,833
I've sent you
1692
01:48:31,916 --> 01:48:34,333
just under three dozen images.
1693
01:48:35,541 --> 01:48:38,291
I have 10,000 images.
1694
01:48:39,250 --> 01:48:41,458
From north to south of Gaza.
1695
01:48:47,083 --> 01:48:49,333
I would love to ask you
how you got these,
1696
01:48:49,416 --> 01:48:51,041
but I'm not going to.
1697
01:48:52,125 --> 01:48:53,833
So tell me what I'm seeing.
1698
01:48:53,916 --> 01:48:55,458
So these are Israeli soldiers,
1699
01:48:55,541 --> 01:48:57,250
occupation soldiers, in people's homes,
1700
01:48:57,333 --> 01:48:59,875
who are basically giving
a set of instructions
1701
01:48:59,958 --> 01:49:00,958
to the unit.
1702
01:49:02,333 --> 01:49:04,875
They're very well aware of civilian spaces
1703
01:49:04,958 --> 01:49:06,458
before they bomb them.
1704
01:49:07,375 --> 01:49:09,625
But these images,
I mean, literally, again,
1705
01:49:09,708 --> 01:49:11,625
their names are on the walls,
1706
01:49:11,708 --> 01:49:14,375
they are going to be used
to piece together incidents
1707
01:49:14,458 --> 01:49:16,583
to understand who was where.
1708
01:49:16,666 --> 01:49:19,208
You have an image, for example, 3A.
1709
01:49:19,291 --> 01:49:21,250
- 3A. Let me go find it.
- Where they...
1710
01:49:21,333 --> 01:49:23,333
Where they mark all of Gaza.
1711
01:49:23,416 --> 01:49:25,083
Which battalions that are entering
1712
01:49:25,166 --> 01:49:27,125
from these areas, from those areas,
1713
01:49:27,625 --> 01:49:30,000
this, plus a record of massacres.
1714
01:49:30,083 --> 01:49:31,625
We can basically trace it back
1715
01:49:31,708 --> 01:49:33,875
to the unit that committed
the war crimes.
1716
01:49:34,875 --> 01:49:36,875
People are already starting
to prosecute them,
1717
01:49:36,958 --> 01:49:39,791
which is why
the Army is freaking out.
1718
01:49:39,875 --> 01:49:42,708
Okay. And now this is all,
this is all background.
1719
01:49:42,791 --> 01:49:44,958
I'm not allowed to write any of this.
1720
01:49:45,458 --> 01:49:46,458
For now no,
1721
01:49:46,541 --> 01:49:49,041
but you'll be the person
I'll come to when we're ready.
1722
01:50:06,791 --> 01:50:07,791
This afternoon,
1723
01:50:07,875 --> 01:50:09,291
William Calley stood to attention
1724
01:50:09,375 --> 01:50:11,166
as Colonel Clifford Ford read the verdict.
1725
01:50:12,750 --> 01:50:14,250
The jury has found him guilty
1726
01:50:14,333 --> 01:50:16,458
on three counts of premeditated murder,
1727
01:50:16,541 --> 01:50:19,291
one count of assault
with intent to murder.
1728
01:50:28,833 --> 01:50:32,333
Free Calley now, free Calley now.
1729
01:50:33,333 --> 01:50:35,833
And while the rally
for Calley was in progress,
1730
01:50:35,916 --> 01:50:37,208
hundreds of telegrams
1731
01:50:37,291 --> 01:50:39,625
were pouring into
the Western Union office.
1732
01:50:39,708 --> 01:50:42,833
Most all of them protesting
the conviction of Calley
1733
01:50:42,916 --> 01:50:44,916
and promising their support.
1734
01:50:46,458 --> 01:50:49,291
It's called "The Battle Hymn
of Lieutenant Calley".
1735
01:50:50,916 --> 01:50:52,708
My name is William Calley
1736
01:50:52,791 --> 01:50:55,291
I'm a soldier of this land
1737
01:50:55,375 --> 01:50:57,458
I'm trying to do my duty
1738
01:50:57,541 --> 01:50:59,750
And to gain the upper hand
1739
01:50:59,833 --> 01:51:02,166
But they've made me out
A villain
1740
01:51:02,250 --> 01:51:05,083
They have stamped me
With a brand
1741
01:51:05,166 --> 01:51:07,541
As we go marching on
1742
01:51:07,625 --> 01:51:10,791
The day the verdict of guilty
came in on Calley,
1743
01:51:10,875 --> 01:51:13,833
radio stations started calling
us for extra copies then.
1744
01:51:13,916 --> 01:51:16,166
You shipped
16 5" last night,
1745
01:51:16,250 --> 01:51:17,708
and you can give me how many today?
1746
01:51:18,625 --> 01:51:20,541
I'm just another soldier
1747
01:51:20,625 --> 01:51:23,166
From the shores of USA
1748
01:51:23,250 --> 01:51:25,416
Forgotten on a battlefield
1749
01:51:25,500 --> 01:51:27,708
10,000 miles away
1750
01:51:27,791 --> 01:51:29,750
While life goes on as usual
1751
01:51:29,833 --> 01:51:32,333
From New York to Santa Fe
1752
01:51:32,416 --> 01:51:36,166
As we go marching on
1753
01:51:37,583 --> 01:51:38,833
In the late afternoon,
1754
01:51:38,916 --> 01:51:41,458
the President ordered Calley
released from jail.
1755
01:51:48,458 --> 01:51:51,333
He ended up serving only
three or four months in prison.
1756
01:51:53,125 --> 01:51:55,083
And then he was done.
1757
01:52:06,041 --> 01:52:08,791
We are a culture of enormous violence.
1758
01:52:14,666 --> 01:52:16,500
It's just so brutal.
1759
01:52:18,375 --> 01:52:20,750
There's a level you just can't get to.
1760
01:52:24,000 --> 01:52:26,250
So why do you keep doing the work?
1761
01:52:30,541 --> 01:52:33,000
You can't have a country that does that.
1762
01:52:33,083 --> 01:52:36,000
That's why I've been sort of
on the warpath ever since.
1763
01:52:36,083 --> 01:52:37,625
You can't just
have a country that does it
1764
01:52:37,708 --> 01:52:39,041
and looks the other way.
1765
01:52:39,750 --> 01:52:43,416
If there's any mantra
to what I do, that's it.