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[no audio]

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Downloaded from
YTS.MX

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.MX

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[calm music]

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It's the nostalgia.

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You always look back to, you know, when you're a kid,

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when you're eight, nine, 10 years old,

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and you're collecting.

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In the United States, we are a collector society.

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It's a very supportive industry.

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People wanna educate each
other about these collectibles.

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That's how it started, at its grassroots level.

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It's, uh, it's special.

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I think it's a fun industry to be in.

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We can tell the history of our nation,

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and the history of our people

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through the objects that...
These collectibles that we sell.

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Of course, you always want to say it's about the cards,

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because it is about the cards.

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But I think, more, it's about the people

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that you meet along the way.

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Most true collectors, what they care about,

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it's the passion.

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Yeah, these pieces are starting to...

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be seen as alternative investments, and...

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more people are joining this market every year.

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It's a great thing.

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I think there's two types of people that...

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That collect. There are people that collect for...

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Solely to make a profit, and think there's people

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that collect just for the fun and the memory

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and the good feelings that they have with it.

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Now, the first people I would say,

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the people that collect for profit,

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they're basically out there to collect autographs,

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memorabilia, cards, get it at a low price,

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and then in the shops or on eBay

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or something like that, turn it into a, uh, profit.

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And I mean that... that's cool and all.

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Your business owners gotta make money,

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but my personal reason for collecting would be

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because of the memories that they instill in me.

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[calm music]

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♪ Oooooh ♪

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♪ ooooh ooooooh ♪

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♪ Oooooh ooooh ooh ♪

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♪ Oooh oooh oooh oooh ♪

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♪ Oooh oooh ooh oooh ♪

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All right, here we are at PSA at the National.

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Got a 1952 Mickey Mantle rookie.

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Really, really nice shape. - Beautiful.

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Bill Russell rookie,

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'57 Topps, another one in great condition.

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An '86-'87 Fleer Michael Jordan rookie.

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All these headin' off to PSA today.

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♪ Ooooh oooh ♪

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♪ Ooooh oooh ooh ooh ♪

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♪ Oooh oooh ooh ♪

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[calm music]

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♪ Mountains ♪

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♪ towering again ♪

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♪ in your mind ♪

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♪ Aren't they ♪

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♪ the hardest ones to climb ♪

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[calm music]

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♪ Darlin' ♪

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♪ Look how far we've come ♪

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♪ Simply by ♪

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So I... I'm here lookin' for a lot of stuff for the shop.

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Um, so I buy a lot of stuff here to bring home to my store

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to sell there. Um, so there's certain PC things

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that I look for, too, like some kicker autos

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and stuff for my own collection, but for the most part,

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it's looking for inventory
for the store to bring back.

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♪ Oh because darlin' ♪

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♪ I would never ♪

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♪ let you go ♪

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Yeah. - There's autograph signers,

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uh, that come in, so you can... you can go

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to the autograph signings, and some of those guys

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will talk around after they're done signing, so...

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Yeah, yeah, you never know who you're gonna meet.

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You rub shoulders with a lot of interesting...

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Yup.

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You... you go right in, you hit the ground runnin'.

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I mean, get a lay of the land, and then

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it's tables... - Yup, diggin' for stuff.

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- Yup. - Through boxes,

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lookin' at showcases, buying sealed product,

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running to different promos and giveaways,

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all that kind of stuff, so... - Yeah.

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That's always a big part of it, too.

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It's a lot of fun.

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♪ Aren't they ♪

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♪ fleeting anyway ♪

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[upbeat music]

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♪ I am more fortunate ♪

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♪ than I have been told ♪

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♪ Now that ♪

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♪ I found your heart of gold ♪

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[bright music]

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♪ Oh honey ♪

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♪ Well I'd never guarantee ♪

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♪ We'll be fine ♪

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♪ Aren't we given ♪

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♪ one day at a time ♪

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♪ Love of mine ♪

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♪ I know everything can change ♪

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♪ Let it change ♪

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♪ But I'll still ♪

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♪ fall for you every day ♪

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[music fades]

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[distant crowd chatter]

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I'm Luke Kooy.

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I'm 19 years old.

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I think for me, it's really, really fun

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to kind of look back on some of the memories you have,

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especially on cards. I love keeping stuff

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that I've pulled and opened,
that me and my dad have opened.

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Um, it just kind of takes you back

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to being 12, 13 years old, and I can tell you

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right where I opened that card, and how we got the box,

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and what happened before that day,

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just because that memory's, like, so vivid.

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[calm music]

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So I grew up in remote Northern New Hampshire

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for most of my, like, really, really young years,

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from, like, two, to, like, probably 12.

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With two little sisters, my mom and dad.

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Had a lot of fun, uh, stories in our, uh, yard,

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out in this remote area of New Hampshire.

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We lived in a small town of about a thousand people.

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Had a two-acre lot,

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and so Luke was able to play sports in the backyard

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and the front yard. In the wintertime,

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slide down the hill. Um, and he set up

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some, uh, a field goal... kinda set up in the backyard,

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where that's where he was practicing

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to be the next, uh, New England Patriots kicker.

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Uh, so that's kind of where he started, and...

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Eventually in high school, he became a kicker,

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so part of his dream came true.

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A lot of fun memories there,

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and that's where we started collecting, too,

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in New Hampshire. - Then we moved here,

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to Manistee, Michigan, and had to make all-new friends,

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which was kinda tough, but met a lot of new people,

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and, uh, really thrived here through high school.

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- Manistee is probably one of
the few Lakeshore Communities

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on Lake Michigan that hasn't really

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become overdeveloped, that has a huge potential

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from a tourist standpoint,

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and just from an aesthetics standpoint.

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My dad's a pastor, so he's been a pastor forever.

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Since I was born, he's been a pastor.

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Did lawn care before that, then turned into a pastor.

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Then my mom is a nurse. So she was an ICU nurse,

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uh, worked the night shift when I was growing up,

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and then turned into a day shift nurse

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when we moved here, so, uh,

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both super, super supportive parents,

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very, very involved.

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Couldn't really ask for better parents.

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I'm Christian Protestant.

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It obviously is a huge, huge part of our lives.

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Definitely very important, and kind of plays into

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the practices that I-I try to have here, where it's...

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you know, treating people like God would want you

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to treat them type of thing, so.

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Jefferson Burdick was, I mean, just one of

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the founding fathers of the hobby.

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He actually wrote "The Card Catalog,"

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which is still in use today for collectors,

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how they refer to different sets, um, out there.

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Trading cards.

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Mr. Burdick had an enormous collection,

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but it wasn't just baseball cards

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and sports cards in general.

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It was a collection of... you name it.

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Postcards and photographs and cigar bands.

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He... later in his life, he wanted to actually

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show off this collection, wanted a way to... to...

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For the collection to outlive himself.

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So he actually donated his collection to the MET

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in New York, and that collection,

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portions of that collection are on display, um,

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you know, for the public to go see and learn from.

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And every collector always to make that pilgrimage

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to the MET to see Mr. Burdick's collection.

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Collectors today are still
benefiting from that collection.

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He was one of the guys who would correspond

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with written letters back and forth

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to other collectors of his generation,

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'cause the internet wasn't around.

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We didn't have that, so there were new discoveries

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all the time from these people
who would go to these shows,

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and these shows weren't as public

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as The National is today.

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These were kind of small little shows,

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regional shows, and they...
The collectors would travel

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amongst the regional shows,
and they would find a new card

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that was unknown for their region,

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and they would bring it back,

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and Mr. Burdick would then include that

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in, you know, he wanted to make this journal

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of "The American Card
Catalog," which is still in use today.

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[upbeat music]

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150 miles from Cooperstown, New York,

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on a pleasant tree-lined
street in suburban New Jersey,

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sits the home of businessman Barry Halper,

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possessor of the largest private collection

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of baseball memorabilia in existence.

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A collection that is said to rival that of

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the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown.

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Here, Barry Halper lives out the fantasy of every man.

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Here, Barry Halper fulfills the dream of a lifetime.

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Barry Halper was very notable because

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of his-his very small ownership interest

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in the New York Yankees itself.

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So not only did Barry Halper
have a fair amount of money,

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he was an individual who had access to players.

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And Barry Halper didn't just collect cards.

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Barry Halper was one of the first people to

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collect game-used jerseys, and the memorabilia

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tied to particular athletes.

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So he amassed a huge collection that eventually

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was sold off through very notable auction houses.

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But he has access to the players, so would actually

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talk to the players and have them sign.

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This is my... Mickey Mantle would sign.

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This is my game-used jersey, blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

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Same thing with all the other players.

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So the Halper pedigree on a piece of memorabilia

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would really add a lot of provenance

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to a collection once it was sold out there

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on the secondary market.

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That hat. Heh, I love that hat.

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Looks like a Keystone Kop hat. - This is...

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This is Heinie Groh's hat. And this is a Giant hat.

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New York Giants. That was their old symbol.

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But, uh... - Heinie Groh.

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Heinie Groh. "The Bottle Bat."

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And here we have, uh... this bat is, uh...

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Always curious when some
of the ball players come over.

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Babe Ruth autographed bat.

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A real piece of lumber.

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- Oh, it's heavy. - Hank Aaron picked it up,

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he's like, "I wouldn't have hit 755 with this bat."

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Hank woulda hit anything. [chuckling]

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Talk about a home run king. There's a man.

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I played with Hank. - But also,

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Barry Halper was susceptible to people,

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unscrupulous people who saw that he was

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a wealthy individual, and
the game-used jersey market,

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at that time, was not a well-known market,

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so there was... Mr. Halper was approached

257
00:11:22,308 --> 00:11:24,226
by a lot of people, offering him a lot of

258
00:11:24,310 --> 00:11:26,270
questionable merchandise at that time.

259
00:11:26,354 --> 00:11:29,065
But he amassed this wonderful collection.

260
00:11:29,148 --> 00:11:32,026
It was... it was brilliant, and again, sold,

261
00:11:32,109 --> 00:11:34,153
and you can still see items originating

262
00:11:34,236 --> 00:11:36,322
from the Barry Halper collection.

263
00:11:36,405 --> 00:11:37,281
[crowd cheering]

264
00:11:37,365 --> 00:11:38,783
There's a shot to Kirby Puckett,

265
00:11:38,866 --> 00:11:40,743
and straightaway center, he's under it.

266
00:11:40,826 --> 00:11:42,286
Runner tagging, it could be the game.

267
00:11:42,370 --> 00:11:44,663
Remember, Puckett's got a rifle for an arm.

268
00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:48,584
Look at this throw!

269
00:11:48,668 --> 00:11:50,044
There's gonna be a play at the plate!

270
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:53,798
He got 'em! - You're out!

271
00:11:53,881 --> 00:11:55,633
A strike from Kirby Puckett.

272
00:11:55,716 --> 00:11:59,345
[electric guitar] [metal clanging]

273
00:12:03,349 --> 00:12:05,935
My kind of wheelhouse was the junk wax era.

274
00:12:06,018 --> 00:12:08,104
You know, like a lot of kids back, basically,

275
00:12:08,187 --> 00:12:10,940
1986 to... '92.

276
00:12:11,023 --> 00:12:11,649
[calm music]

277
00:12:15,986 --> 00:12:19,156
I grew up a Twins fan, so that was...

278
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,659
fun times then with the Twins
winning two World Series

279
00:12:21,742 --> 00:12:23,619
in five years, and...

280
00:12:23,703 --> 00:12:25,287
I was a big Kirby Puckett fan.

281
00:12:25,371 --> 00:12:28,708
Um, I know I got a couple hundred different Pucketts

282
00:12:28,791 --> 00:12:29,792
from back in the day,

283
00:12:29,875 --> 00:12:31,043
and that was a big project for me.

284
00:12:31,127 --> 00:12:33,838
Back when you're eight, nine years old, it's just for fun.

285
00:12:33,921 --> 00:12:35,381
You know, you're collecting all that stuff.

286
00:12:35,464 --> 00:12:38,718
Late '80s, early '90s, which was really a period

287
00:12:38,801 --> 00:12:41,637
of great growth in the industry itself.

288
00:12:41,721 --> 00:12:44,682
A number of different
manufacturers of trading cards

289
00:12:44,765 --> 00:12:47,101
were brought in... into the marketplace,

290
00:12:47,184 --> 00:12:48,894
and that brought more collectors in.

291
00:12:48,978 --> 00:12:51,939
You would see the more brick
and mortar stores opening up,

292
00:12:52,023 --> 00:12:53,649
there was pretty much a sports card store

293
00:12:53,733 --> 00:12:55,568
on every corner when I was growing up.

294
00:12:55,651 --> 00:12:57,611
What happened at that point in time was,

295
00:12:57,695 --> 00:13:00,156
there was probably an oversaturation of the market

296
00:13:00,239 --> 00:13:01,282
as far as product.

297
00:13:01,365 --> 00:13:03,034
The product was pretty much the same.

298
00:13:03,117 --> 00:13:05,453
There was no way to differentiate in between,

299
00:13:05,536 --> 00:13:07,413
and some of the collectors that

300
00:13:07,496 --> 00:13:09,665
didn't have that true passion for it,

301
00:13:09,749 --> 00:13:12,293
you know, they kind of left the industry,

302
00:13:12,376 --> 00:13:14,378
and with that, those brick and mortar shops,

303
00:13:14,462 --> 00:13:16,672
they began to close.

304
00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:18,090
The trading card industry itself

305
00:13:18,174 --> 00:13:21,135
kind of reinvented itself with the introduction

306
00:13:21,218 --> 00:13:24,305
of chase cards, which are
cards that may have an autograph

307
00:13:24,388 --> 00:13:26,265
on them, or a piece of memorabilia

308
00:13:26,349 --> 00:13:28,100
on the card itself, whether it be a piece

309
00:13:28,184 --> 00:13:30,561
of a game-used jersey, or a bat, or a ball.

310
00:13:30,644 --> 00:13:34,440
And that kind of re-inspired
the collector in the late '90s.

311
00:13:34,523 --> 00:13:36,692
And then the advent that, with the internet,

312
00:13:36,776 --> 00:13:39,695
the boom of the internet, a way where you didn't have to

313
00:13:39,779 --> 00:13:42,531
just go to a show, or go to a card shop.

314
00:13:42,615 --> 00:13:45,785
You could actually go online and find a collection

315
00:13:45,868 --> 00:13:48,329
that was up for sale, whether it be on eBay,

316
00:13:48,412 --> 00:13:51,874
or some auction house. A lot of sports memorabilia

317
00:13:51,957 --> 00:13:53,542
auction houses came into being

318
00:13:53,626 --> 00:13:56,545
in that late '90s early 2000s era.

319
00:13:56,629 --> 00:13:59,340
And that really jump started the industry itself,

320
00:13:59,423 --> 00:14:02,176
all the way into, let's say, 2007-2008.

321
00:14:02,259 --> 00:14:04,428
There was a little downturn
in the industry, as there was

322
00:14:04,512 --> 00:14:07,056
with a downturn in the economy itself.

323
00:14:07,139 --> 00:14:11,352
But that was short lived, because then the industry

324
00:14:11,435 --> 00:14:13,437
just began shooting back up again,

325
00:14:13,521 --> 00:14:15,856
all throughout the early 2010s,

326
00:14:15,940 --> 00:14:17,817
all the way through up until, I think,

327
00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:21,320
our next big moment that we all unexpectedly saw

328
00:14:21,404 --> 00:14:23,406
was during COVID, the COVID boom.

329
00:14:23,489 --> 00:14:26,158
Now the growing concerns
about the deadly coronavirus

330
00:14:26,242 --> 00:14:27,993
officially hitting the U.S.

331
00:14:30,371 --> 00:14:34,250
I think COVID really helped boost the popularity of...

332
00:14:34,333 --> 00:14:35,668
Of trading cards. Think about it.

333
00:14:35,751 --> 00:14:38,045
You're at home, you have nothin' to do.

334
00:14:38,129 --> 00:14:41,090
You can't go outside. Why not just go on eBay?

335
00:14:41,173 --> 00:14:44,927
Or go to a local shop online and pick out cards,

336
00:14:45,011 --> 00:14:46,429
uh, everything you've been thinking about.

337
00:14:46,512 --> 00:14:48,597
It really took off during the pandemic.

338
00:14:48,681 --> 00:14:51,434
People were home, uh, looking for things to do,

339
00:14:51,517 --> 00:14:53,019
digging through their old cards,

340
00:14:53,102 --> 00:14:55,688
boxes in their houses and basements.

341
00:14:55,771 --> 00:14:57,648
The hobby exploded during that time.

342
00:14:57,732 --> 00:14:59,275
Everybody was kind of shut in.

343
00:14:59,358 --> 00:15:01,777
I mean, that's why people were watching Joe Exotic,

344
00:15:01,861 --> 00:15:03,154
for cripe's sake.

345
00:15:03,237 --> 00:15:04,363
And this is what I truly love.

346
00:15:04,447 --> 00:15:07,491
I-I love to meet collectors who were reintroduced

347
00:15:07,575 --> 00:15:10,286
to the hobby from that COVID time.

348
00:15:10,369 --> 00:15:13,080
They found the passion,
the enjoyment from looking at

349
00:15:13,164 --> 00:15:14,165
their old trading cards.

350
00:15:14,248 --> 00:15:15,916
I got into...

351
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,252
specializing more on-on team sets.

352
00:15:18,336 --> 00:15:20,588
I remember a team set I wanted to put together

353
00:15:20,671 --> 00:15:23,424
was a 1967 Topps Tigers team set.

354
00:15:23,507 --> 00:15:26,385
And during COVID, I worked on going online

355
00:15:26,469 --> 00:15:27,928
and finding those particular cards

356
00:15:28,012 --> 00:15:29,305
to help build that team set,

357
00:15:29,388 --> 00:15:30,723
and it was kind of like puttin' together a puzzle.

358
00:15:30,806 --> 00:15:33,851
And so I would say my... my collection...

359
00:15:33,934 --> 00:15:36,479
probably a third... doubled in size,

360
00:15:36,562 --> 00:15:38,230
I would say, during the pandemic.

361
00:15:38,314 --> 00:15:39,607
Yeah.

362
00:15:42,651 --> 00:15:44,195
[chuckling]

363
00:15:44,278 --> 00:15:45,488
My baby!

364
00:15:45,571 --> 00:15:48,574
This is my baby, oh! That's my baby.

365
00:15:50,201 --> 00:15:51,827
Kiss... that's a good kiss.

366
00:15:51,911 --> 00:15:53,788
Good kiss, mwah!

367
00:15:55,456 --> 00:15:58,918
Christmas 1987, so he was two.

368
00:15:59,001 --> 00:16:00,670
He was only two here.

369
00:16:00,753 --> 00:16:03,339
Wow, look at that face. He's so cute.

370
00:16:07,843 --> 00:16:09,553
Oh, I'm never angry at Cliff.

371
00:16:09,637 --> 00:16:12,139
I... we never... oh, yes, it's Cliff's fault

372
00:16:12,223 --> 00:16:14,475
that this happened, but never angry at him,

373
00:16:14,558 --> 00:16:17,353
because it didn't need to happen this way.

374
00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:19,939
If they had gone after Cliff, that was one thing.

375
00:16:20,022 --> 00:16:22,233
They came after me to get to Cliff.

376
00:16:22,316 --> 00:16:23,984
At the time when he first got sentenced,

377
00:16:24,068 --> 00:16:25,361
I, um...

378
00:16:25,444 --> 00:16:27,029
my life kind of really just stopped,

379
00:16:27,113 --> 00:16:28,531
'cause I didn't think I'd live long enough

380
00:16:28,614 --> 00:16:30,032
to see him again.

381
00:16:30,116 --> 00:16:31,617
The last I saw him was droppin' him off

382
00:16:31,701 --> 00:16:33,786
at the airport,

383
00:16:33,869 --> 00:16:35,204
for him to go home to sentencing,

384
00:16:35,287 --> 00:16:37,623
which we had hoped for one or two years.

385
00:16:37,707 --> 00:16:40,876
We thought maybe three, and she gave him six.

386
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,589
[pensive music]

387
00:17:11,532 --> 00:17:16,162
[pensive music]

388
00:17:25,588 --> 00:17:27,548
You know, my... my only concern,

389
00:17:27,631 --> 00:17:28,591
you know, the day I get out of here,

390
00:17:28,674 --> 00:17:30,426
I wanna go home and...

391
00:17:30,509 --> 00:17:32,553
and see my mother. Like, that's...

392
00:17:32,636 --> 00:17:35,514
the basically the last family I have, you know?

393
00:17:35,598 --> 00:17:38,225
So that really is my only concern.

394
00:17:38,309 --> 00:17:41,020
Um, right now, she's... she's out in Nevada by herself.

395
00:17:41,103 --> 00:17:42,980
And that's...

396
00:17:43,064 --> 00:17:44,523
in my mind, it's not right.

397
00:17:44,607 --> 00:17:46,692
At first it wasn't...

398
00:17:46,776 --> 00:17:49,945
I'm just gonna completely shift sides, it wasn't...

399
00:17:50,029 --> 00:17:53,199
I'm not doin' this anymore, I'm only sellin' forgeries.

400
00:17:53,282 --> 00:17:56,869
Uh, once it started, it was hard to not

401
00:17:56,952 --> 00:17:58,412
be involved in it one way or another,

402
00:17:58,496 --> 00:17:59,830
but I still... I still traveled

403
00:17:59,914 --> 00:18:01,499
for multiple years after that.

404
00:18:01,582 --> 00:18:04,377
In 2010, I went to the Super Bowl in Miami.

405
00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:05,127
But that's kind of where

406
00:18:05,211 --> 00:18:06,962
the dynamic of the trips changed.

407
00:18:07,046 --> 00:18:10,091
So now, I'm in Miami, chasin' these players,

408
00:18:10,174 --> 00:18:11,801
gettin' autographs to sell,

409
00:18:11,884 --> 00:18:14,970
but more than being concerned
with getting autographs,

410
00:18:15,054 --> 00:18:17,640
I'm concerned with taking what the industry calls...

411
00:18:17,723 --> 00:18:20,976
Is a proof picture. You know, if I hand a player

412
00:18:21,060 --> 00:18:23,145
a ball and he's signin' it, I have someone else

413
00:18:23,229 --> 00:18:25,690
snapping a picture of him signing that ball.

414
00:18:25,773 --> 00:18:28,401
So now, when it comes time to sell the ball,

415
00:18:28,484 --> 00:18:29,985
I'm gonna use the picture of the ball,

416
00:18:30,069 --> 00:18:32,321
I'm gonna use a picture of the ball being signed,

417
00:18:32,405 --> 00:18:34,073
but when I go to ship the item,

418
00:18:34,156 --> 00:18:35,658
I'm shipping one that I signed.

419
00:18:35,741 --> 00:18:38,327
And that's kind of where the business evolved to.

420
00:18:38,411 --> 00:18:40,246
And then from there, it evolved to...

421
00:18:40,329 --> 00:18:41,872
where it was kinda just...

422
00:18:41,956 --> 00:18:43,708
There was none of it, there was no more traveling,

423
00:18:43,791 --> 00:18:45,751
it was just me sitting in a room

424
00:18:45,835 --> 00:18:48,462
with-with pen and ball and-and paper.

425
00:18:51,132 --> 00:18:55,720
We met at a country bar called Mr. D's,

426
00:18:55,803 --> 00:18:59,390
back in 1983. I went there after work.

427
00:18:59,473 --> 00:19:01,600
I was workin' at the steel mill at the time,

428
00:19:01,684 --> 00:19:03,686
and he was there. Came over and asked me to dance

429
00:19:03,769 --> 00:19:06,981
when I went in. And we danced all night.

430
00:19:07,064 --> 00:19:08,941
And I always teased him after we were married

431
00:19:09,025 --> 00:19:11,569
that I married him because he was the one I found

432
00:19:11,652 --> 00:19:13,779
that would dance more than I wanted to.

433
00:19:13,863 --> 00:19:15,865
And so I always said when I asked him

434
00:19:15,948 --> 00:19:17,450
to go out to dance, and I said,

435
00:19:17,533 --> 00:19:19,326
"Remember, I married you 'cause you wanted to"

436
00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:21,579
"dance a lot, and what's that tell you?"

437
00:19:21,662 --> 00:19:23,622
And he'd go get dressed, and we'd go out.

438
00:19:25,624 --> 00:19:28,002
Cliff was born in a small hospital

439
00:19:28,085 --> 00:19:30,838
in Youngstown. On Christmas Day in 1985,

440
00:19:30,921 --> 00:19:33,299
he was born. He was in six days,

441
00:19:33,382 --> 00:19:35,384
'cause he was born with jaundice,

442
00:19:35,468 --> 00:19:37,511
so he didn't come home right away.

443
00:19:37,595 --> 00:19:38,929
But he was fine afterwards,

444
00:19:39,013 --> 00:19:41,932
but, yeah, it was pretty exciting Christmas morning.

445
00:19:42,016 --> 00:19:42,933
[chuckling]

446
00:19:43,017 --> 00:19:44,727
Goin' into labor, and goin' to the hospital,

447
00:19:44,810 --> 00:19:47,855
and... Frank callin' everybody, my parents comin' up

448
00:19:47,938 --> 00:19:49,231
to the hospital, then go back home

449
00:19:49,315 --> 00:19:51,859
in a snowstorm. "Oh, you've got time."

450
00:19:51,942 --> 00:19:54,403
"You can go back home." "Okay, doctor said 'Nope,

451
00:19:54,487 --> 00:19:56,113
"'it's comin', better come back.'"

452
00:19:56,197 --> 00:19:57,365
So, it was pretty fun.

453
00:19:57,448 --> 00:19:58,908
[giggling]

454
00:19:58,991 --> 00:20:01,702
Come on, come on, come on, come on!

455
00:20:01,786 --> 00:20:03,913
Shoot! Shoot!

456
00:20:05,164 --> 00:20:06,707
[giggling]

457
00:20:06,791 --> 00:20:09,585
Okay.

458
00:20:09,669 --> 00:20:12,338
Cut me off, I'm gonna take him dunkin'!

459
00:20:12,421 --> 00:20:15,049
He was a fun kid. Funny, and fun.

460
00:20:15,132 --> 00:20:18,344
He was real athletic from-from day one.

461
00:20:18,427 --> 00:20:20,388
He would do tricks on his bicycle

462
00:20:20,471 --> 00:20:24,308
when he was three years old out in the front yard, and...

463
00:20:24,392 --> 00:20:27,228
then got into baseball really at about four.

464
00:20:27,311 --> 00:20:29,647
Little pitching machine we... Frank had bought him,

465
00:20:29,730 --> 00:20:32,566
and then got into Little League at five.

466
00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:35,486
And it just snowballed from there.

467
00:20:35,569 --> 00:20:38,280
Never wanted out of it after that.

468
00:20:38,364 --> 00:20:40,199
Frank was hard on him about baseball, though,

469
00:20:40,282 --> 00:20:42,493
'cause Frank would... shoulda went in professionally,

470
00:20:42,576 --> 00:20:45,371
but went into the Vietnam War in 1965,

471
00:20:45,454 --> 00:20:47,998
so that never happened for him.

472
00:20:48,082 --> 00:20:50,710
My earliest memories of baseball was...

473
00:20:50,793 --> 00:20:52,878
I guess I started when I was five years old.

474
00:20:52,962 --> 00:20:55,548
At that time, I really had no interest in it.

475
00:20:55,631 --> 00:20:59,176
I mean, my earliest memories
were standing out in right field

476
00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:01,804
picking dandelions while the game's goin' on.

477
00:21:01,887 --> 00:21:03,014
What else is he gonna do?

478
00:21:03,097 --> 00:21:06,517
What little kid was hitting
any balls out into the outfield?

479
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,728
Nobody. So he was standin' out there

480
00:21:08,811 --> 00:21:11,522
just doin' nothin' and pullin' the weeds.

481
00:21:11,605 --> 00:21:12,857
And tryin' to...

482
00:21:12,940 --> 00:21:14,358
my parents tryin' to get my attention

483
00:21:14,442 --> 00:21:16,610
to get me involved. By one year later,

484
00:21:16,694 --> 00:21:18,362
you know, the script's completely flipped.

485
00:21:18,446 --> 00:21:20,281
By that time, I'd... you know,

486
00:21:20,364 --> 00:21:21,782
that's the only thing goin' on in life.

487
00:21:21,866 --> 00:21:23,117
The only thing I care about.

488
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:24,994
You know, I... it's kind of...

489
00:21:25,077 --> 00:21:26,287
I'm knowin' I'm supposed to be an athlete.

490
00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:28,080
I'm supposed to be a baseball player.

491
00:21:28,164 --> 00:21:30,082
And from there it's just...

492
00:21:30,166 --> 00:21:33,085
just progresses from there.
My dad's always in the picture,

493
00:21:33,169 --> 00:21:36,714
always coachin' the team, goin' to the field,

494
00:21:36,797 --> 00:21:40,176
batting practice, you know, he...

495
00:21:40,259 --> 00:21:42,720
was really, uh... never said no, I guess.

496
00:21:42,803 --> 00:21:45,473
When it came to baseball, it was never a no.

497
00:21:45,556 --> 00:21:47,141
There was never too many ground balls,

498
00:21:47,224 --> 00:21:50,603
or play catch, or batting cages, whatever.

499
00:21:52,188 --> 00:21:54,523
I don't know that there was ever a point

500
00:21:54,607 --> 00:21:57,318
where I didn't wanna play professional baseball

501
00:21:57,401 --> 00:22:01,697
from probably that age, six, when I-I...

502
00:22:01,781 --> 00:22:03,115
Decided I had a love for it.

503
00:22:03,199 --> 00:22:04,367
A kid's dream,

504
00:22:04,450 --> 00:22:06,452
to get paid to play a sport.

505
00:22:08,329 --> 00:22:09,789
For a long time, Cliff didn't realize

506
00:22:09,872 --> 00:22:12,750
that that's what really made him what he was,

507
00:22:12,833 --> 00:22:15,461
that if Frank had just been easy on him,

508
00:22:15,544 --> 00:22:16,754
he wouldn't have tried as hard.

509
00:22:16,837 --> 00:22:19,423
Like, Mom was always like, "Oh, that was good!"

510
00:22:19,507 --> 00:22:22,051
"You did good!" Even when he would strike out.

511
00:22:22,134 --> 00:22:25,179
But, uh, Frank always concentrated on...

512
00:22:25,262 --> 00:22:27,640
Even if he had three home runs and one strikeout,

513
00:22:27,723 --> 00:22:29,308
he dealt with the strike out.

514
00:22:29,392 --> 00:22:33,270
And... kind of pushing him to do better...

515
00:22:33,354 --> 00:22:36,273
practice more. It was never good enough.

516
00:22:36,357 --> 00:22:38,150
"Shake it off!" He was always...

517
00:22:38,234 --> 00:22:39,735
He was always down by the fence,

518
00:22:39,819 --> 00:22:40,986
yelling at him.

519
00:22:41,070 --> 00:22:43,197
Stereotypical story of a successful player,

520
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,533
you know, Little League
Championships, All-Star Games,

521
00:22:45,616 --> 00:22:46,951
this, that.

522
00:22:47,034 --> 00:22:49,537
Into high school, that was where I transitioned

523
00:22:49,620 --> 00:22:52,456
from shortstop to catcher. I became a catcher.

524
00:22:52,540 --> 00:22:54,500
Started three years varsity,

525
00:22:54,583 --> 00:22:57,253
was recruited to a lot of small schools,

526
00:22:57,336 --> 00:23:00,673
went through the whole showcase route, and-and...

527
00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:02,049
Workouts for teams.

528
00:23:02,133 --> 00:23:03,759
I played on the Allegheny Pirates,

529
00:23:03,843 --> 00:23:06,887
which was the Pittsburgh Pirates' showcase team.

530
00:23:06,971 --> 00:23:10,099
Actually, I split time at catcher, with Neal Walker,

531
00:23:10,182 --> 00:23:13,269
who ended up playin' for the Pirates, Mets.

532
00:23:13,352 --> 00:23:16,605
From there, I actually went to Hiram College

533
00:23:16,689 --> 00:23:19,191
on an academic scholarship.

534
00:23:19,275 --> 00:23:21,694
I dropped out after two weeks.

535
00:23:21,777 --> 00:23:23,946
I don't know. School wasn't about baseball.

536
00:23:24,030 --> 00:23:27,450
I didn't... as bad as it sounds, I wasn't goin' to college

537
00:23:27,533 --> 00:23:28,993
for an education. I was goin' to college

538
00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:30,661
to play baseball. I had a full ride,

539
00:23:30,745 --> 00:23:34,248
$120,000 scholarship to Hiram, and dropped out

540
00:23:34,331 --> 00:23:36,459
after two weeks. - He went to college

541
00:23:36,542 --> 00:23:39,003
to play baseball. He didn't go to college

542
00:23:39,086 --> 00:23:41,213
for a college degree. He went to college

543
00:23:41,297 --> 00:23:43,591
to play baseball. - She really...

544
00:23:43,674 --> 00:23:46,552
she-she fully supported me. This was, uh,

545
00:23:46,635 --> 00:23:48,387
you know, all through my childhood,

546
00:23:48,471 --> 00:23:50,556
as long as I got good grades,

547
00:23:50,639 --> 00:23:53,434
baseball was allowed to come before school.

548
00:23:53,517 --> 00:23:55,394
Fast-forward, I end up goin' to Martin Methodist,

549
00:23:55,478 --> 00:23:57,688
an NAIA school in Tennessee.

550
00:23:57,772 --> 00:24:00,566
I was always... scout called it, a catch and throw guy.

551
00:24:00,649 --> 00:24:03,027
I was a catcher, catch and throw, block,

552
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:05,654
throw runners out. I couldn't hit.

553
00:24:05,738 --> 00:24:08,449
I was an average hitter, no-no home runs.

554
00:24:08,532 --> 00:24:10,910
Uh, hit around .300.

555
00:24:10,993 --> 00:24:13,496
And just... my senior year kind of back against the wall,

556
00:24:13,579 --> 00:24:15,456
like, you know, is this it?

557
00:24:15,539 --> 00:24:17,249
Am I gonna keep playin'?

558
00:24:17,333 --> 00:24:19,001
I got in shape, I thought...

559
00:24:19,085 --> 00:24:19,919
I always thought I was in shape,

560
00:24:20,002 --> 00:24:22,838
but I got in... in real shape.

561
00:24:22,922 --> 00:24:25,049
I met my hitting instructor, Jim Devine.

562
00:24:25,132 --> 00:24:28,010
I changed some swing mechanics, and...

563
00:24:28,094 --> 00:24:30,471
and he rest was really... really history,

564
00:24:30,554 --> 00:24:31,889
as they would say. Just kinda...

565
00:24:31,972 --> 00:24:34,517
kinda took off. I went from two home runs

566
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,019
my junior season to 21 my senior.

567
00:24:37,103 --> 00:24:38,813
We would go to workouts.

568
00:24:38,896 --> 00:24:42,483
He ended up... he went to one of the more prestigious, uh,

569
00:24:42,566 --> 00:24:45,403
pro workouts in the country. It was over in Detroit.

570
00:24:45,486 --> 00:24:48,406
It was about 300 guys. He walked in, lit it up,

571
00:24:48,489 --> 00:24:50,157
and he was the first guy signed out of about...

572
00:24:50,241 --> 00:24:51,784
We had 13 guys out of our stable

573
00:24:51,867 --> 00:24:53,953
go to that workout, and he was the first one signed.

574
00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:56,914
From there, it was straight into... independent ball.

575
00:24:56,997 --> 00:24:58,666
He ended up playin' the World Independent,

576
00:24:58,749 --> 00:25:00,084
which is a big deal.

577
00:25:00,167 --> 00:25:01,961
He played with about 10 or 12 ex-big leaguers,

578
00:25:02,044 --> 00:25:04,797
and he was barely 21.

579
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,091
If he'd have... like I said, his problem was patience.

580
00:25:07,174 --> 00:25:08,968
If he'd have just stayed a little more patient,

581
00:25:09,051 --> 00:25:10,177
uh, he played for Hal Lanier,

582
00:25:10,261 --> 00:25:12,138
who was the manager of the Astros.

583
00:25:12,221 --> 00:25:15,975
They played in the NLCS against the Mets in '86.

584
00:25:16,058 --> 00:25:17,476
And Hal loved him.

585
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,854
But Cliff just... he didn't... he-he's not made that way.

586
00:25:19,937 --> 00:25:22,189
He-he wanted it... he wanted to be in the lineup right now.

587
00:25:22,273 --> 00:25:24,150
He had a great year, I think he hit .300,

588
00:25:24,233 --> 00:25:26,527
big power numbers, and Hal loved him, and...

589
00:25:26,610 --> 00:25:27,653
It was kind of like, "Hey, just stay on."

590
00:25:27,737 --> 00:25:31,407
"You're young, you haven't gone to affiliated ball yet."

591
00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:33,659
Cliff's patience level back then was a little

592
00:25:33,743 --> 00:25:35,369
"Ahh, you know I can do it."

593
00:25:35,453 --> 00:25:37,079
But, you know. - Now... now I wasn't

594
00:25:37,163 --> 00:25:39,582
a catch and throw guy. Now I was the hitter.

595
00:25:39,665 --> 00:25:42,501
Coincidentally at that time, I became just a hitter,

596
00:25:42,585 --> 00:25:44,545
because that's when I got injured.

597
00:25:44,628 --> 00:25:47,173
I believe because of so much with the...

598
00:25:47,256 --> 00:25:49,675
He was always a catcher. Doubleheaders, and he would

599
00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:52,219
have to play the whole thing through college.

600
00:25:52,303 --> 00:25:54,513
Never wanted anybody else to be in there.

601
00:25:54,597 --> 00:25:56,932
It always had to be him. Well, the catcher,

602
00:25:57,016 --> 00:25:58,976
that's hard on your arm. That year after playing

603
00:25:59,060 --> 00:26:02,104
up in Sussex Skyhawks, up in New Jersey,

604
00:26:02,188 --> 00:26:05,608
that was in '08, and he went to Cleveland Clinic

605
00:26:05,691 --> 00:26:08,778
to get... see about his injury, and his arm was...

606
00:26:08,861 --> 00:26:11,197
They were like, "No, you need rotator cuff surgery."

607
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,324
I played through my senior season,

608
00:26:13,407 --> 00:26:14,575
played through my rookie season

609
00:26:14,658 --> 00:26:16,744
on Cortisone shots.

610
00:26:16,827 --> 00:26:19,413
By the end of the season, I pretty much knew it was...

611
00:26:19,497 --> 00:26:21,665
knew it was over with. - Big depression.

612
00:26:21,749 --> 00:26:24,293
I-I'm not even sure how he worked it out himself,

613
00:26:24,377 --> 00:26:26,128
through his mind. He's strong-willed,

614
00:26:26,212 --> 00:26:28,756
he got through it, but, I don't think he wanted to show it

615
00:26:28,839 --> 00:26:30,466
to us as much as he felt it.

616
00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:33,094
You know, it takes a lot to realize, you know,

617
00:26:33,177 --> 00:26:35,304
I guess deep down, I probably knew that was...

618
00:26:35,388 --> 00:26:36,806
This was the start of the end for...

619
00:26:36,889 --> 00:26:39,433
For my career. But I didn't want to accept it.

620
00:26:39,517 --> 00:26:41,977
So I'm still... you know, I'm two days out of surgery,

621
00:26:42,061 --> 00:26:44,939
and I'm in the gym on... on the stationary bike,

622
00:26:45,022 --> 00:26:47,858
and the treadmill, thinkin' the more...

623
00:26:47,942 --> 00:26:50,236
The more I work out, the quicker my recovery will be.

624
00:26:50,319 --> 00:26:52,113
I'm tryin' to play the next season.

625
00:26:52,196 --> 00:26:54,365
So there's really no, like,

626
00:26:54,448 --> 00:26:56,784
feel bad for myself time.

627
00:26:56,867 --> 00:26:58,953
It was just push forward, what can I do to get back?

628
00:26:59,036 --> 00:27:00,788
He walked around like a big leaguer.

629
00:27:00,871 --> 00:27:01,872
You know, I mean, like he did the things

630
00:27:01,956 --> 00:27:04,792
you'd see a guy on TV do, and that's what he wanted to do.

631
00:27:04,875 --> 00:27:05,751
That was his business.

632
00:27:05,835 --> 00:27:09,296
It was the end of what he had worked 20 years for.

633
00:27:09,380 --> 00:27:11,048
You know, and he started at five years old

634
00:27:11,132 --> 00:27:13,884
thinkin' he would go. It's all it was to him,

635
00:27:13,968 --> 00:27:15,261
was baseball.

636
00:27:15,344 --> 00:27:16,721
There was really no other option

637
00:27:16,804 --> 00:27:19,223
other... other than baseball. But it just never...

638
00:27:19,306 --> 00:27:22,309
Never came to fruition. The injury just...

639
00:27:22,393 --> 00:27:25,521
never... I don't wanna say it never healed, 'cause I...

640
00:27:25,604 --> 00:27:27,314
I live normal. My shoulder doesn't hurt.

641
00:27:27,398 --> 00:27:31,318
But I lost velocity, and got older, and...

642
00:27:31,402 --> 00:27:34,238
that's-that's the nature of the business. I was...

643
00:27:34,321 --> 00:27:35,740
That was... that was it.

644
00:27:35,823 --> 00:27:36,699
People could say a lot of things,

645
00:27:36,782 --> 00:27:39,452
but if somebody wants to
question his baseball career,

646
00:27:39,535 --> 00:27:40,995
all they had to... go down to Martin Methodist

647
00:27:41,078 --> 00:27:43,414
and ask 'em. Call Hal Lanier and ask him.

648
00:27:43,497 --> 00:27:45,291
Call them guys in the independent and...

649
00:27:45,374 --> 00:27:48,169
The Can-Am League, which
is basically Triple-A Baseball.

650
00:27:48,252 --> 00:27:49,628
It's the guys that get released out of baseball,

651
00:27:49,712 --> 00:27:51,672
and they go, you know... Darryl Strawberry,

652
00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:53,758
Jose Canseco, that's where they went to.

653
00:27:53,841 --> 00:27:55,509
Here's a 21-year-old kid that was goin' up there

654
00:27:55,593 --> 00:27:57,345
and gettin' playing time and starrin'.

655
00:27:57,428 --> 00:27:58,596
He hadn't played affiliated ball yet.

656
00:27:58,679 --> 00:28:00,598
He went from college to Triple-A.

657
00:28:01,766 --> 00:28:03,392
Right now. And he was the backup catcher

658
00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:04,518
to a guy that caught in the big leagues

659
00:28:04,602 --> 00:28:06,062
for 15 years. Good athlete,

660
00:28:06,145 --> 00:28:08,814
knew the game, leader, and like, in my case,

661
00:28:08,898 --> 00:28:09,982
couldn't ask for a better client.

662
00:28:10,066 --> 00:28:11,484
Couldn't ask for a better kid.

663
00:28:12,610 --> 00:28:13,944
Hi, my name's Cliff Panezich.

664
00:28:14,028 --> 00:28:16,489
"I'm a 6'1" 175-pound catcher

665
00:28:16,572 --> 00:28:18,240
at Youngstown Ursuline High School.

666
00:28:18,324 --> 00:28:20,659
Thank you for taking the time to view my video.

667
00:28:24,955 --> 00:28:27,792
[crickets chirping]

668
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,924
The original thinking

669
00:28:35,007 --> 00:28:38,177
was to remain anonymous.

670
00:28:38,260 --> 00:28:41,097
So at that point, you had to give it a name.

671
00:28:43,724 --> 00:28:47,436
Defiance is in the Black Swamp.

672
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,357
So it's a region of the northwest corner of Ohio

673
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:52,983
that was the Great Black Swamp.

674
00:28:53,067 --> 00:28:55,569
So we just kind of went, "Okay, we're gonna play on..."

675
00:28:55,653 --> 00:28:58,572
we didn't wanna say Defiance.
That told us where we were.

676
00:28:58,656 --> 00:29:01,200
If we were anonymous, we wanted to be anonymous.

677
00:29:01,283 --> 00:29:03,661
So the Black Swamp covered a huge area.

678
00:29:05,913 --> 00:29:07,081
The Black Swamp find.

679
00:29:07,164 --> 00:29:08,582
Black Swamp find.

680
00:29:08,666 --> 00:29:10,001
The Black Swamp find.

681
00:29:10,084 --> 00:29:13,587
So as a regional definition,

682
00:29:13,671 --> 00:29:15,047
the Black Swamp. So therefore,

683
00:29:15,131 --> 00:29:16,882
the Black Swamp Find.

684
00:29:16,966 --> 00:29:22,555
[calm music]

685
00:29:47,872 --> 00:29:51,709
Defiance was established by general Anthony Wayne

686
00:29:51,792 --> 00:29:55,296
as a fort, a summer fort,

687
00:29:55,379 --> 00:29:58,090
and he defied all the devils

688
00:29:58,174 --> 00:30:00,051
and Indians to take the fort.

689
00:30:00,134 --> 00:30:02,803
Therefore the name, Defiance.

690
00:30:02,887 --> 00:30:05,348
So Fort Defiance, what is now Defiance.

691
00:30:05,431 --> 00:30:07,975
This is a small town. Lot of family.

692
00:30:08,059 --> 00:30:10,895
Obviously my business is 95 years old,

693
00:30:10,978 --> 00:30:14,482
so it's not uncommon for things to stay in a family.

694
00:30:14,565 --> 00:30:17,651
My grandfather immigrated from Germany,

695
00:30:17,735 --> 00:30:19,320
came in through the Great Lakes,

696
00:30:19,403 --> 00:30:22,114
through Wisconsin, worked his way through Chicago

697
00:30:22,198 --> 00:30:24,742
to New Bavaria, New Bavaria to Defiance,

698
00:30:24,825 --> 00:30:26,744
where he opened up a meat market,

699
00:30:26,827 --> 00:30:29,413
Hench's Sausage Works.

700
00:30:29,497 --> 00:30:33,167
Now, he courted my grandmother.

701
00:30:34,585 --> 00:30:38,339
My great grandfather, Mr... it'd be Schlegel,

702
00:30:38,422 --> 00:30:41,258
at the time, told him to come back in a year

703
00:30:41,342 --> 00:30:43,469
if he was still interested. By god, one year later,

704
00:30:43,552 --> 00:30:45,262
he appeared on the porch.

705
00:30:45,346 --> 00:30:47,056
He was allowed to court my grandmother,

706
00:30:47,139 --> 00:30:49,016
and six months later, they were married.

707
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:52,520
In the interim of that, my grandfather had bought

708
00:30:52,603 --> 00:30:55,106
the home house on Perry Street.

709
00:30:55,189 --> 00:30:59,193
He bought it in 1908. They married in 1909.

710
00:30:59,276 --> 00:31:02,071
He was convinced he was gonna marry that woman,

711
00:31:02,154 --> 00:31:04,240
and carry her across the threshold

712
00:31:04,323 --> 00:31:07,118
to a five-bedroom home

713
00:31:07,201 --> 00:31:08,661
that they never moved from.

714
00:31:08,744 --> 00:31:10,746
My grandfather, my grandmother,

715
00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:14,458
several of my aunts died in that home.

716
00:31:14,542 --> 00:31:18,295
And it was not uncommon for that to happen.

717
00:31:18,379 --> 00:31:20,339
So the house...

718
00:31:20,423 --> 00:31:23,968
was in the family from 1908.

719
00:31:24,051 --> 00:31:25,511
My grandparents never moved.

720
00:31:25,594 --> 00:31:28,139
All of my... my mother, my aunts and uncles

721
00:31:28,222 --> 00:31:29,682
were all born in that house.

722
00:31:29,765 --> 00:31:32,393
Some of my aunts and uncles moved back into the house

723
00:31:32,476 --> 00:31:35,855
when they were in transition between houses.

724
00:31:35,938 --> 00:31:39,775
My grandfather passed away, I believe it's 1944.

725
00:31:39,859 --> 00:31:43,654
My grandmother passed away in 1975.

726
00:31:43,738 --> 00:31:45,322
Two of my aunts never married,

727
00:31:45,406 --> 00:31:49,118
so the house merely stayed in the family.

728
00:31:49,201 --> 00:31:52,663
It moved to my aunts' possession.

729
00:31:52,747 --> 00:31:57,418
And then when the elder of the two sisters died,

730
00:31:57,501 --> 00:32:00,379
the house moved to Jean.

731
00:32:00,463 --> 00:32:03,174
She was the final owner of the home,

732
00:32:03,257 --> 00:32:06,218
final inhabitant. She never married,

733
00:32:06,302 --> 00:32:07,762
and she was quite the collector,

734
00:32:07,845 --> 00:32:11,515
so over the years, nothing left the house.

735
00:32:11,599 --> 00:32:13,642
Now we're polite when we say "collector."

736
00:32:13,726 --> 00:32:15,644
We all know what that means.

737
00:32:15,728 --> 00:32:17,897
There was a path through the house,

738
00:32:17,980 --> 00:32:21,150
and... as sweet as the lady was,

739
00:32:21,233 --> 00:32:23,694
she could not get rid of anything.

740
00:32:23,778 --> 00:32:27,740
And her passion...

741
00:32:27,823 --> 00:32:30,618
her disease...

742
00:32:30,701 --> 00:32:32,286
her curse...

743
00:32:32,370 --> 00:32:34,872
became our blessing.

744
00:32:34,955 --> 00:32:37,500
It's... you know, how else can you say it?

745
00:32:37,583 --> 00:32:40,836
She couldn't throw it out, left it for us to clean it up.

746
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,546
What a blessing.

747
00:32:47,134 --> 00:32:48,719
The reason for cleaning out the house

748
00:32:48,803 --> 00:32:52,765
was because, unfortunately, but mother nature wins...

749
00:32:52,848 --> 00:32:56,602
My Aunt Jean passed away at the wonderful age of 85.

750
00:32:56,686 --> 00:32:59,563
Now Jean never married, never had any children,

751
00:32:59,647 --> 00:33:02,942
and her will was actually quite specific.

752
00:33:03,025 --> 00:33:06,195
She had 20 nieces and nephews.

753
00:33:06,278 --> 00:33:08,656
The contents of the house

754
00:33:08,739 --> 00:33:11,992
were to be distributed equally.

755
00:33:12,076 --> 00:33:13,411
When my grandmother passed away,

756
00:33:13,494 --> 00:33:15,204
nothing left the house.

757
00:33:15,287 --> 00:33:17,832
When my aunt Katherine passed away,

758
00:33:17,915 --> 00:33:19,583
nothing left the house.

759
00:33:19,667 --> 00:33:23,004
Jean would not allow it.

760
00:33:23,087 --> 00:33:27,466
So you had generations of stuff

761
00:33:27,550 --> 00:33:29,969
that had never been distributed to family members.

762
00:33:30,052 --> 00:33:31,762
I was in charge of the estate,

763
00:33:31,846 --> 00:33:35,057
so we made the decision that this would kind of be...

764
00:33:35,141 --> 00:33:37,560
a treasure hunt.

765
00:33:37,643 --> 00:33:40,521
Five bedrooms, a living room,

766
00:33:40,604 --> 00:33:43,107
dining room, kitchen, full basement,

767
00:33:43,190 --> 00:33:45,443
which is unheard of for a house of that...

768
00:33:45,526 --> 00:33:46,485
Of that era.

769
00:33:46,569 --> 00:33:49,280
So how do you clean this out?

770
00:33:49,363 --> 00:33:51,615
Well, you do it in zones.

771
00:33:51,699 --> 00:33:54,368
You assign two people to this bedroom,

772
00:33:54,452 --> 00:33:57,413
two people to the dining
room, two people to the kitchen.

773
00:33:57,496 --> 00:33:59,832
And we had scheduled clean-out days.

774
00:33:59,915 --> 00:34:02,752
We did a weekend once a month.

775
00:34:02,835 --> 00:34:04,420
Everybody knew about it.

776
00:34:04,503 --> 00:34:06,339
Everybody planned it.

777
00:34:06,422 --> 00:34:10,051
Some people drove or flew, from Florida.

778
00:34:10,134 --> 00:34:12,219
Drove or flew from St. Louis to be here

779
00:34:12,303 --> 00:34:14,805
to participate in it, because they knew

780
00:34:14,889 --> 00:34:17,683
it would be fun.

781
00:34:17,767 --> 00:34:20,019
It would be a challenge.

782
00:34:20,102 --> 00:34:22,897
And it would... again, like stated earlier,

783
00:34:22,980 --> 00:34:24,982
it was that opportunity

784
00:34:25,066 --> 00:34:28,736
to share in our parents' home,

785
00:34:28,819 --> 00:34:31,489
and those memories.

786
00:34:31,572 --> 00:34:34,200
As we worked it, we decided that we had

787
00:34:34,283 --> 00:34:36,410
to clean out the bedrooms

788
00:34:36,494 --> 00:34:37,912
and the main part of the house first

789
00:34:37,995 --> 00:34:39,747
before we ever touched the attic,

790
00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:41,540
'cause we didn't have any room.

791
00:34:41,624 --> 00:34:42,792
And as we cleaned things out,

792
00:34:42,875 --> 00:34:44,794
some things obviously went to the dump,

793
00:34:44,877 --> 00:34:47,755
some things went to a small warehouse

794
00:34:47,838 --> 00:34:49,757
that I had rented from a friend,

795
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,884
where they were then catalogued and stored.

796
00:34:51,967 --> 00:34:54,387
We finally get to that point where the second floor

797
00:34:54,470 --> 00:34:56,347
of the house is pretty much empty.

798
00:34:56,430 --> 00:34:59,141
Karla and I are teamed up as work buddies,

799
00:34:59,225 --> 00:35:02,186
and we're gonna breach the attic door.

800
00:35:02,269 --> 00:35:04,355
So Karla and I start on what would be

801
00:35:04,438 --> 00:35:06,649
the right-hand side of the attic,

802
00:35:06,732 --> 00:35:08,734
and we start working our way down through it.

803
00:35:08,818 --> 00:35:12,154
And we're getting into my
great grandmother's clothes,

804
00:35:12,238 --> 00:35:13,572
which were stored in the boxes.

805
00:35:13,656 --> 00:35:15,032
And we work our way down through,

806
00:35:15,116 --> 00:35:17,910
we're finding the old gas lamps that used to

807
00:35:17,993 --> 00:35:20,871
light the home before it
was converted to electricity.

808
00:35:20,955 --> 00:35:23,290
They're back here in the rafters.

809
00:35:23,374 --> 00:35:25,000
We work our way all the way down to the end,

810
00:35:25,084 --> 00:35:27,753
and we're takin' a break, 'cause buddy, we're grungy.

811
00:35:27,837 --> 00:35:31,757
We have drug out my grandfather's steamer chest.

812
00:35:32,925 --> 00:35:35,803
What he brought from Germany.

813
00:35:35,886 --> 00:35:37,680
And when you opened it,

814
00:35:37,763 --> 00:35:40,016
his top hat,

815
00:35:40,099 --> 00:35:42,977
his shoes that he wore for his wedding,

816
00:35:43,060 --> 00:35:44,228
were still in the trunk.

817
00:35:44,311 --> 00:35:48,607
But also in there was the smell of spices.

818
00:35:48,691 --> 00:35:50,359
He was a sausage maker.

819
00:35:50,443 --> 00:35:52,069
You could still smell those spices.

820
00:35:52,153 --> 00:35:53,612
There were still bags of old spices

821
00:35:53,696 --> 00:35:54,739
still in that trunk.

822
00:35:54,822 --> 00:35:56,115
And we had drug that out.

823
00:35:56,198 --> 00:35:58,284
So we're finally at the end of it.

824
00:35:58,367 --> 00:36:00,703
On the right-hand side, we're turnin' the corner,

825
00:36:00,786 --> 00:36:03,789
and we're getting into...

826
00:36:03,873 --> 00:36:06,083
toys...

827
00:36:06,167 --> 00:36:08,878
that our parents played with.

828
00:36:08,961 --> 00:36:12,048
A little remake of a refrigerator.

829
00:36:12,131 --> 00:36:14,175
An icebox, but it's a refrigerator.

830
00:36:14,258 --> 00:36:16,594
We get through that... so I'd hand Karla a box.

831
00:36:16,677 --> 00:36:18,054
Karla would hand me a box.

832
00:36:18,137 --> 00:36:19,680
We're into the back corner now,

833
00:36:19,764 --> 00:36:22,183
on the left-hand side. We've made the turn,

834
00:36:22,266 --> 00:36:24,393
we're comin' back up.

835
00:36:24,477 --> 00:36:27,688
And we get into the boxes that my grandfather

836
00:36:27,772 --> 00:36:28,731
had stuffed in there.

837
00:36:28,814 --> 00:36:31,317
So we're goin' through these boxes.

838
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,903
I'd hand one to Karla, Karla... back and forth.

839
00:36:33,986 --> 00:36:35,863
I'd open one, she'd open one.

840
00:36:35,946 --> 00:36:37,990
I hand her a box, she opens it up and says,

841
00:36:38,074 --> 00:36:39,700
"Karl!"

842
00:36:39,784 --> 00:36:41,410
"Look at this!"

843
00:36:41,494 --> 00:36:43,913
I look over. "What you got?"

844
00:36:43,996 --> 00:36:46,874
"Well, they look like baseball cards."

845
00:36:46,957 --> 00:36:49,669
"Aw, damn, too bad they're not Topps."

846
00:36:49,752 --> 00:36:51,420
We both said the same thing.

847
00:36:51,504 --> 00:36:52,880
We closed the box up.

848
00:36:52,963 --> 00:36:54,965
We take it out the hallway and set it on a dresser,

849
00:36:55,049 --> 00:36:56,467
and we keep going.

850
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:59,387
We have no clue... what we have just found.

851
00:37:00,388 --> 00:37:02,014
We continue on through.

852
00:37:02,098 --> 00:37:05,226
We finally get all done, we're covered in soot.

853
00:37:05,309 --> 00:37:07,812
A couple more cousins have shown up,

854
00:37:07,895 --> 00:37:09,105
and they're gonna start haulin' things

855
00:37:09,188 --> 00:37:11,440
down the stairway and out to the dumpster.

856
00:37:11,524 --> 00:37:13,567
As we're doing this,

857
00:37:13,651 --> 00:37:16,654
one of my cousins, Eric, grabs the box that has

858
00:37:16,737 --> 00:37:19,532
the cards in it, opens it up, looks at it,

859
00:37:19,615 --> 00:37:20,741
puts the lid back down and says,

860
00:37:20,825 --> 00:37:23,411
"Does this go to the dump?"

861
00:37:23,494 --> 00:37:25,079
Karla tells him, "No, stick it back."

862
00:37:25,162 --> 00:37:26,872
"Karl wants to look into it."

863
00:37:26,956 --> 00:37:28,958
I'm busy in another part of the house.

864
00:37:29,041 --> 00:37:32,086
Little bit later on, we've cleaned out a bunch more.

865
00:37:32,169 --> 00:37:34,171
Eric's got ahold of the box again,

866
00:37:34,255 --> 00:37:36,090
and he's headed for the dump again.

867
00:37:36,173 --> 00:37:40,386
Karla says "Nope, stop. Put it back away."

868
00:37:40,469 --> 00:37:42,596
That happened three times

869
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,891
that that box almost went to the dumpster.

870
00:37:45,975 --> 00:37:47,727
Finally, I take the box, dust it off,

871
00:37:47,810 --> 00:37:49,061
and I take it out and put it in my truck.

872
00:37:49,145 --> 00:37:51,772
Just toss it on the seat, I'll look into it later.

873
00:37:51,856 --> 00:37:54,025
And we go back to cleaning out the attic.

874
00:37:54,108 --> 00:37:55,901
We spend the rest of the day,

875
00:37:55,985 --> 00:37:58,070
and the next day, cleaning out the attic.

876
00:37:58,154 --> 00:37:59,905
That box has been forgotten about.

877
00:37:59,989 --> 00:38:01,907
Nobody cares.

878
00:38:01,991 --> 00:38:03,826
It's oblivious.

879
00:38:03,909 --> 00:38:05,745
We're onto other things.

880
00:38:05,828 --> 00:38:08,122
We got... what are we gonna do with this stuff?

881
00:38:08,205 --> 00:38:10,583
I took the box here to work,

882
00:38:10,666 --> 00:38:12,251
tossed it on a chair in my office.

883
00:38:12,335 --> 00:38:13,169
There it sat.

884
00:38:13,252 --> 00:38:16,297
And I started lookin' on the computer.

885
00:38:16,380 --> 00:38:18,257
And I'm lookin', and I'm findin' nothin'.

886
00:38:19,925 --> 00:38:22,428
And I'm lookin', and I'm findin' nothin'.

887
00:38:22,511 --> 00:38:25,389
Finally I wind up on eBay.

888
00:38:25,473 --> 00:38:28,309
Old baseball cards.

889
00:38:28,392 --> 00:38:31,020
I'm scannin' down through,

890
00:38:31,103 --> 00:38:33,439
and I'm seein' Cracker Jack.

891
00:38:33,522 --> 00:38:35,399
Oh, okay.

892
00:38:35,483 --> 00:38:36,984
Not Topps.

893
00:38:37,068 --> 00:38:39,653
We're older now, Cracker Jack.

894
00:38:39,737 --> 00:38:40,946
And then...

895
00:38:41,030 --> 00:38:42,782
what the hell's a tobacco card?

896
00:38:42,865 --> 00:38:44,325
I had no clue.

897
00:38:44,408 --> 00:38:45,534
Caramel card. What's that?

898
00:38:45,618 --> 00:38:48,037
I dunno, I'm still scrollin'.

899
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,457
Then I get down to... wait a minute.

900
00:38:51,540 --> 00:38:53,709
That looks like our cards.

901
00:38:53,793 --> 00:38:56,087
That looks like what's in that box.

902
00:38:56,170 --> 00:38:58,881
And I click on it, then...

903
00:38:58,964 --> 00:39:01,967
Blow it up. And here's Ty Cobb.

904
00:39:03,636 --> 00:39:06,514
Looks exactly like what's in that box over there.

905
00:39:06,597 --> 00:39:07,515
And... 'cause I walk over to the box,

906
00:39:07,598 --> 00:39:09,975
I open up the lid, I grab a stack of Ty Cobb.

907
00:39:10,059 --> 00:39:12,561
And I look at it, and here's Ty Cobb,

908
00:39:12,645 --> 00:39:15,439
bright red, bright white,

909
00:39:15,523 --> 00:39:16,899
and I look at the screen.

910
00:39:16,982 --> 00:39:18,734
It's a PSA 3.

911
00:39:18,818 --> 00:39:21,404
The guy wants two grand for it,

912
00:39:21,487 --> 00:39:23,239
"Buy It Now."

913
00:39:23,322 --> 00:39:25,032
And I'm lookin' at this, and I'm lookin' at that,

914
00:39:25,116 --> 00:39:27,493
goin', "Oh, shit."

915
00:39:27,576 --> 00:39:28,744
These might be real.

916
00:39:28,828 --> 00:39:32,331
I... again, I'm thinkin' Topps!

917
00:39:32,415 --> 00:39:33,290
Not Cracker Jack.

918
00:39:33,374 --> 00:39:34,542
Not Old Put.

919
00:39:34,625 --> 00:39:36,419
Not caramel.

920
00:39:38,087 --> 00:39:39,088
Okay!

921
00:39:39,171 --> 00:39:41,716
I put it back, I cover up the box.

922
00:39:41,799 --> 00:39:46,262
[calm music]

923
00:39:46,345 --> 00:39:48,681
Now, we had to figure out what to do.

924
00:39:49,306 --> 00:39:53,894
[calm music]

925
00:40:16,417 --> 00:40:17,335
When I was a little girl,

926
00:40:17,418 --> 00:40:19,754
my dad used to take me to air shows all the time.

927
00:40:19,837 --> 00:40:20,921
Loved them.

928
00:40:21,005 --> 00:40:23,507
And I was listening to an interview,

929
00:40:23,591 --> 00:40:25,760
and I was hearing how the aerodynamics

930
00:40:25,843 --> 00:40:29,764
of a Formula One car are very similar to aircrafts.

931
00:40:29,847 --> 00:40:32,892
So I took a deep dive into figuring out

932
00:40:32,975 --> 00:40:35,227
what the aerodynamics would
be like in a Formula One car

933
00:40:35,311 --> 00:40:39,440
versus planes, and that's when
I fell in love with motorsport.

934
00:40:39,523 --> 00:40:41,567
And not to also mention that...

935
00:40:41,650 --> 00:40:45,905
I was a part of the era of playing video games,

936
00:40:45,988 --> 00:40:47,907
so I played all the Grand Turismos,

937
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:50,159
the Mario Karts, and I've always

938
00:40:50,242 --> 00:40:52,244
had an affinity for video games,

939
00:40:52,328 --> 00:40:55,247
so, I guess they all just kinda came together.

940
00:40:55,331 --> 00:40:57,917
[calm music]

941
00:41:00,836 --> 00:41:02,338
People from all over the world

942
00:41:02,421 --> 00:41:06,050
helped me collect and finish and complete my set.

943
00:41:07,468 --> 00:41:09,261
They're beautiful.

944
00:41:09,345 --> 00:41:10,555
Sebastien's auto cards, to me,

945
00:41:10,638 --> 00:41:13,724
are just some of the most underrated cards.

946
00:41:13,808 --> 00:41:15,643
Pierre Gasly, Daniel Ricciardo...

947
00:41:15,726 --> 00:41:18,062
He fortunately was able to come back to Formula One.

948
00:41:22,566 --> 00:41:25,569
So I am a very passionate, loving collector.

949
00:41:25,653 --> 00:41:27,863
I love every single card that I collect,

950
00:41:27,947 --> 00:41:30,991
and I have a personal connection with them.

951
00:41:31,075 --> 00:41:34,453
I like cards that are very nostalgic

952
00:41:34,537 --> 00:41:36,706
in taking me back to, like, a place.

953
00:41:36,789 --> 00:41:39,542
For example, the Pierre Gasly, and his win in Monza.

954
00:41:39,625 --> 00:41:42,586
I mean, I think that that was such a poignant race.

955
00:41:42,670 --> 00:41:45,172
People my age and above, especially on the older end

956
00:41:45,256 --> 00:41:48,300
of the spectrum, you don't see
many women that are collecting.

957
00:41:48,384 --> 00:41:50,219
Unfortunately, I do not see many women,

958
00:41:50,302 --> 00:41:52,972
at least from around, getting autographs,

959
00:41:53,055 --> 00:41:55,391
going to card shows, going to local shops.

960
00:41:55,474 --> 00:41:58,185
I don't see as many women around in the hobby.

961
00:41:58,269 --> 00:41:59,854
Do I see a lot of women in this hobby?

962
00:41:59,937 --> 00:42:01,689
No, I don't. [chuckling]

963
00:42:01,772 --> 00:42:03,232
I don't. But...

964
00:42:03,315 --> 00:42:05,860
the women that are a part of this hobby,

965
00:42:05,943 --> 00:42:07,903
they are... they're true gems.

966
00:42:07,987 --> 00:42:10,781
I love the way that they champion for each other.

967
00:42:10,865 --> 00:42:14,785
I think that with time, I feel that there will be

968
00:42:14,869 --> 00:42:16,328
more women coming into the hobby,

969
00:42:16,412 --> 00:42:17,997
at least, I hope so.

970
00:42:19,582 --> 00:42:21,417
A few of them that I follow,

971
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:23,044
definitely would be Lauren Taylor.

972
00:42:23,127 --> 00:42:25,129
I think that she's, like, one of the best artists ever.

973
00:42:25,212 --> 00:42:27,590
And I have her Derek Jeter card.

974
00:42:27,673 --> 00:42:29,133
So I think in the next 10 years or so,

975
00:42:29,216 --> 00:42:30,801
you could see a lot more women in the hobby,

976
00:42:30,885 --> 00:42:32,136
which is awesome. You know?

977
00:42:32,219 --> 00:42:34,180
It's really what we need, uh, is to have more...

978
00:42:34,263 --> 00:42:35,890
Kind of, diversity with everything.

979
00:42:35,973 --> 00:42:38,559
It's not just a guys' thing to do.

980
00:42:38,642 --> 00:42:40,061
Break these stereotypes.

981
00:42:40,144 --> 00:42:41,646
There are women out here that collect,

982
00:42:41,729 --> 00:42:44,231
and I'd like to see more. More outspoken.

983
00:42:44,315 --> 00:42:46,442
Bringing more women together to show that this isn't

984
00:42:46,525 --> 00:42:48,319
just a male-dominated field.

985
00:42:48,402 --> 00:42:51,072
And it would be nice to see that grow here

986
00:42:51,155 --> 00:42:53,032
in the years to come.

987
00:42:57,119 --> 00:42:59,830
So this is the infamous.

988
00:42:59,914 --> 00:43:02,625
The reason why I so love the hobby.

989
00:43:04,210 --> 00:43:07,380
Back in 2020, when...

990
00:43:07,463 --> 00:43:09,507
Topps officially got the license of...

991
00:43:09,590 --> 00:43:12,677
Of Formula One cards... [chuckling]

992
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,263
I asked my sister to buy me a box.

993
00:43:15,346 --> 00:43:18,474
Just one box, because they're very expensive.

994
00:43:18,557 --> 00:43:20,518
And as I opened the box,

995
00:43:20,601 --> 00:43:23,187
I found that I had an autograph.

996
00:43:23,270 --> 00:43:24,897
And... [chuckling]

997
00:43:24,980 --> 00:43:26,941
As I peeled back the-the...

998
00:43:27,024 --> 00:43:29,860
The leaflet of the packaging,

999
00:43:29,944 --> 00:43:33,406
it was a Lewis Hamilton. It was a 30/58 Auto.

1000
00:43:33,489 --> 00:43:34,865
But when you look at the card,

1001
00:43:34,949 --> 00:43:36,283
I flipped it over on the other side,

1002
00:43:36,367 --> 00:43:40,538
I saw that Lewis Hamilton
was wearing a black uniform.

1003
00:43:40,621 --> 00:43:43,124
Now when you look at the history of Mercedes,

1004
00:43:43,207 --> 00:43:45,293
it goes all the way back to the 1930s.

1005
00:43:45,376 --> 00:43:47,545
They were known as the Silver Arrows.

1006
00:43:47,628 --> 00:43:50,673
In the wake of what was going on with George Floyd,

1007
00:43:50,756 --> 00:43:54,302
and of course, the world was shut down during COVID,

1008
00:43:54,385 --> 00:43:55,887
including Formula One,

1009
00:43:55,970 --> 00:43:57,555
Lewis Hamilton saw what was happening.

1010
00:43:57,638 --> 00:43:59,557
Now, he doesn't live in the United States.

1011
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:02,184
He's based in the UK.

1012
00:44:02,268 --> 00:44:05,313
But Formula One was one of the first sports

1013
00:44:05,396 --> 00:44:08,983
to come back to television for us to watch.

1014
00:44:09,066 --> 00:44:12,278
So I do remember distinctively sitting there,

1015
00:44:12,361 --> 00:44:15,031
waiting for the race to start,
do... watching what they were

1016
00:44:15,114 --> 00:44:16,741
doing as far as all the processions

1017
00:44:16,824 --> 00:44:19,618
that they do before the race.

1018
00:44:19,702 --> 00:44:22,288
And I see this man,

1019
00:44:22,371 --> 00:44:26,167
and he has this "End Racism" shirt on,

1020
00:44:26,250 --> 00:44:29,212
and he kneels down in front of a banner

1021
00:44:29,295 --> 00:44:31,923
that says "End Racism."

1022
00:44:32,006 --> 00:44:33,758
And then you see these other drivers

1023
00:44:33,841 --> 00:44:35,134
that kneel down next to him,

1024
00:44:35,217 --> 00:44:37,053
and none of them are American.

1025
00:44:37,136 --> 00:44:41,140
So refreshing to see, wow, there is a whole sport

1026
00:44:41,223 --> 00:44:44,060
that is willing to stand behind this Black man.

1027
00:44:44,143 --> 00:44:46,187
It only added to the fact

1028
00:44:46,270 --> 00:44:48,648
that Mercedes,

1029
00:44:48,731 --> 00:44:53,027
after being the Silver Arrows for decades,

1030
00:44:53,110 --> 00:44:55,613
turned their car livery to black,

1031
00:44:55,696 --> 00:44:57,949
turned their uniforms to black.

1032
00:44:58,032 --> 00:45:00,868
So the significance of...

1033
00:45:00,951 --> 00:45:04,372
the card being signed is one thing.

1034
00:45:04,455 --> 00:45:07,250
But to have a card...

1035
00:45:07,333 --> 00:45:11,337
where this man has stood up for racial inequality,

1036
00:45:11,420 --> 00:45:14,632
by simply changing a uniform,

1037
00:45:14,715 --> 00:45:18,052
would be something that I will cherish forever.

1038
00:45:18,135 --> 00:45:19,679
And I think that that's probably the main reason

1039
00:45:19,762 --> 00:45:21,722
why I'd never get rid of it.

1040
00:45:25,309 --> 00:45:27,937
[bright music]

1041
00:45:30,189 --> 00:45:31,816
Pop collectibles, of all... I mean, they're...

1042
00:45:31,899 --> 00:45:34,068
There are a lot on my list that I would like to see.

1043
00:45:34,151 --> 00:45:36,237
There are some that are... might not even exist.

1044
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:37,989
Some of them are rumored. Me as a golfer,

1045
00:45:38,072 --> 00:45:39,991
one of the first ones that comes to mind, uh...

1046
00:45:40,074 --> 00:45:41,909
The two golf balls hit on the moon.

1047
00:45:41,992 --> 00:45:43,703
Alan Shepard's two shots on the moon,

1048
00:45:43,786 --> 00:45:45,496
number one would probably be the most valuable

1049
00:45:45,579 --> 00:45:47,123
sports collectible out there, 'cause...

1050
00:45:47,206 --> 00:45:48,791
It's gonna cost you a lot of money to get there

1051
00:45:48,874 --> 00:45:50,084
to retrieve both of those golf balls,

1052
00:45:50,167 --> 00:45:51,544
but when they came back,

1053
00:45:51,627 --> 00:45:53,129
probably be worth a lot of money.

1054
00:45:53,212 --> 00:45:55,256
Maybe Tiger Woods' first green jacket,

1055
00:45:55,339 --> 00:45:56,507
being the first African-American

1056
00:45:56,590 --> 00:45:59,594
to win a Major. That would be an iconic find.

1057
00:45:59,677 --> 00:46:01,304
Wilt Chamberlain's 100-point ball.

1058
00:46:01,387 --> 00:46:02,889
There was... many years ago,

1059
00:46:02,972 --> 00:46:04,682
there was a rumor that it was out there,

1060
00:46:04,765 --> 00:46:06,392
and that is was quickly pulled down,

1061
00:46:06,475 --> 00:46:08,519
because something like this, you gotta remember,

1062
00:46:08,602 --> 00:46:10,855
people didn't collect these things.

1063
00:46:10,938 --> 00:46:12,273
It was more, kind of, like,

1064
00:46:12,356 --> 00:46:14,734
collectors weren't out in the open as much.

1065
00:46:14,817 --> 00:46:16,527
It was if you collected the stuff, especially

1066
00:46:16,610 --> 00:46:19,822
like game-used type items, that was more like, you know...

1067
00:46:19,905 --> 00:46:21,741
Card collecting, almost acceptable.

1068
00:46:21,824 --> 00:46:24,160
Game-used? Ooh, I can't believe you're doing that.

1069
00:46:24,243 --> 00:46:26,996
A 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente rookie,

1070
00:46:27,079 --> 00:46:28,539
I think, is up there.

1071
00:46:28,622 --> 00:46:32,501
Uh, 1916 Sporting News Babe Ruth card.

1072
00:46:33,794 --> 00:46:35,755
Now, I've seen these, and there have been

1073
00:46:35,838 --> 00:46:36,756
blank backs on them,

1074
00:46:36,839 --> 00:46:38,633
and I've seen them with advertisements.

1075
00:46:38,716 --> 00:46:40,468
I really like the one that has the Herpolsheimer's

1076
00:46:40,551 --> 00:46:42,053
on the back of it, because it's a mix

1077
00:46:42,136 --> 00:46:45,139
of baseball, and then it's a
mix of Grand Rapids collecting,

1078
00:46:45,222 --> 00:46:46,933
so it'd be a nice little, uh...

1079
00:46:47,016 --> 00:46:49,143
Uh, dual collection for me.

1080
00:46:49,226 --> 00:46:50,645
Can't afford it, but it's a...

1081
00:46:50,728 --> 00:46:53,189
It's definitely a, uh, card that tops my list,

1082
00:46:53,272 --> 00:46:55,775
I think, of... of valuable, uh, cards.

1083
00:46:55,858 --> 00:46:57,902
And then obviously if you're looking outside

1084
00:46:57,985 --> 00:47:01,322
the sport of baseball, the 19, uh... 80...

1085
00:47:01,405 --> 00:47:04,575
I believe '87 Fleer Michael Jordan rookie card.

1086
00:47:04,658 --> 00:47:05,868
That's right up there, too.

1087
00:47:05,951 --> 00:47:08,496
I have a good collection of memorabilia.

1088
00:47:08,579 --> 00:47:10,248
I bought a lot of items when I was single,

1089
00:47:10,331 --> 00:47:12,333
and able to. [chuckling]

1090
00:47:12,416 --> 00:47:14,460
Now as there's a ring on my finger,

1091
00:47:14,543 --> 00:47:16,462
that's not always...

1092
00:47:16,545 --> 00:47:17,880
I'm not always able to do that.

1093
00:47:17,963 --> 00:47:21,759
Uh, but... I'm a... I'm a big Lebron fan.

1094
00:47:21,842 --> 00:47:25,388
And I want a Lebron autographed picture

1095
00:47:25,471 --> 00:47:28,516
or Jersey or something to hang on my wall.

1096
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:31,519
Definitely Ayrton Senna and Niki Lauda for sure.

1097
00:47:31,602 --> 00:47:32,770
Those are the two cards that I'm...

1098
00:47:32,853 --> 00:47:34,105
That I'm on the hunt for now.

1099
00:47:34,188 --> 00:47:35,982
I always like things with history attached to 'em.

1100
00:47:36,065 --> 00:47:38,901
Maybe something from, um... from the Black Sox scandal.

1101
00:47:38,984 --> 00:47:42,488
Shoeless Joe's confession? Okay, doesn't even exist.

1102
00:47:42,571 --> 00:47:44,824
There's talk that it does, a signed confession.

1103
00:47:44,907 --> 00:47:47,535
First off, Shoeless Joe, who was, many say, illiterate,

1104
00:47:47,618 --> 00:47:49,912
couldn't sign his own name.
Was there a signed confession?

1105
00:47:49,995 --> 00:47:52,540
There's talk about that, but it's never surfaced,

1106
00:47:52,623 --> 00:47:54,250
so someday a signed confession

1107
00:47:54,333 --> 00:47:56,669
going to a documented event in history.

1108
00:47:56,752 --> 00:47:59,547
I think Calvin Johnson is really the guy that I...

1109
00:47:59,630 --> 00:48:00,965
I've gone after.

1110
00:48:01,048 --> 00:48:03,676
Um, a lot of his rookie cards,

1111
00:48:03,759 --> 00:48:07,597
um, his Topps Chrome Superfractor, um...

1112
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,516
I actually know the guy who owns the Superfractor

1113
00:48:10,599 --> 00:48:12,268
and the Superfractor Auto.

1114
00:48:12,351 --> 00:48:13,603
Um, I don't think he'll ever sell 'em,

1115
00:48:13,686 --> 00:48:16,606
but, like, that would be like a grail card for me.

1116
00:48:16,689 --> 00:48:19,567
2000 Tom Brady, uh, Contenders Rookie Ticket Auto.

1117
00:48:19,650 --> 00:48:21,694
That is one that has to happen at some point.

1118
00:48:21,777 --> 00:48:22,820
I have to own one, so...

1119
00:48:22,903 --> 00:48:24,238
as a Patriots fan, gotta get it.

1120
00:48:24,321 --> 00:48:26,324
You can bring a baseball with ya and get me to sign it,

1121
00:48:26,407 --> 00:48:28,451
and it becomes twice as valuable.

1122
00:48:28,534 --> 00:48:30,161
It's not like they're just...

1123
00:48:30,244 --> 00:48:31,871
They're just payin' to get an autograph, you know?

1124
00:48:31,954 --> 00:48:33,748
It's-It's a pretty big business.

1125
00:48:33,831 --> 00:48:35,708
The top Mickey Mantle card, obviously,

1126
00:48:35,791 --> 00:48:40,463
is the 1952 Topps Mantle, just a beautiful card.

1127
00:48:40,546 --> 00:48:42,882
It was in the high series, so it's card 311.

1128
00:48:42,965 --> 00:48:44,592
So it's in the high series, which means it would have

1129
00:48:44,675 --> 00:48:48,012
came out a little later than the first series.

1130
00:48:48,095 --> 00:48:50,890
So, tougher to... to kind of get at that point.

1131
00:48:50,973 --> 00:48:53,476
There was less made. - And what it means to...

1132
00:48:53,559 --> 00:48:55,436
To the hobby is, I think it... [sighing]

1133
00:48:55,519 --> 00:48:57,188
It basically...

1134
00:48:57,271 --> 00:48:58,898
helped the overall value of the hobby.

1135
00:48:58,981 --> 00:49:01,317
We also set the record for the most expensive

1136
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:03,194
sports collectible ever sold,

1137
00:49:03,277 --> 00:49:06,239
which was a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle rookie card,

1138
00:49:06,322 --> 00:49:10,576
graded mint, 9.5, mint plus. That sold for $12.6 million,

1139
00:49:10,659 --> 00:49:12,620
and that was part... that card was originally

1140
00:49:12,703 --> 00:49:17,667
part of the Al Rosen... the Mr. Mint 1952 Topps Find,

1141
00:49:17,750 --> 00:49:19,710
which happened in the mid-1980s.

1142
00:49:20,544 --> 00:49:23,214
- Mickey takes a terrific
cut at a first pitch fastball,

1143
00:49:23,297 --> 00:49:25,550
and there it goes!

1144
00:49:25,633 --> 00:49:28,386
It sails over the 380-foot marker.

1145
00:49:28,469 --> 00:49:30,471
Mickey Mantle was a...

1146
00:49:30,554 --> 00:49:32,390
one of the greatest outfielders of all time.

1147
00:49:32,473 --> 00:49:34,058
Played for the New York Yankees,

1148
00:49:34,141 --> 00:49:36,811
20-time All-Star, over 500 home runs,

1149
00:49:36,894 --> 00:49:39,272
seven-time World Series champion.

1150
00:49:39,355 --> 00:49:40,773
A lot of people living today,

1151
00:49:40,856 --> 00:49:42,775
older collectors, actually grew up

1152
00:49:42,858 --> 00:49:44,652
and they saw Mickey Mantle play.

1153
00:49:44,735 --> 00:49:47,905
Or, even after Mickey Mantle was on that circuit

1154
00:49:47,988 --> 00:49:50,074
of individuals who would actually go to shows

1155
00:49:50,157 --> 00:49:51,909
and sign autographs. So he was somebody

1156
00:49:51,992 --> 00:49:54,203
that you could have interacted with.

1157
00:49:54,286 --> 00:49:57,999
A lot of people living today
actually saw Mickey Mantle play.

1158
00:49:58,082 --> 00:50:00,084
Nobody really knew much about him,

1159
00:50:00,167 --> 00:50:02,420
you know, back in '51.

1160
00:50:02,503 --> 00:50:07,216
And... there was a... international news photographer.

1161
00:50:07,299 --> 00:50:08,885
Nobody knows if he was a freelancer,

1162
00:50:08,968 --> 00:50:10,678
if he actually worked for an international news,

1163
00:50:10,761 --> 00:50:12,889
but he was sent to Yankees Spring Training

1164
00:50:12,972 --> 00:50:15,808
in March of 1951. You know, it was...

1165
00:50:15,891 --> 00:50:18,102
to get shots of Joe DiMaggio.

1166
00:50:18,185 --> 00:50:20,354
To get shots of Yogi Berra.

1167
00:50:21,522 --> 00:50:24,025
And this young 19-year-old kid steps up.

1168
00:50:24,108 --> 00:50:26,110
"Hey, it's my turn to get a shot."

1169
00:50:26,193 --> 00:50:27,820
Holds the bat on his shoulder,

1170
00:50:27,903 --> 00:50:29,614
you know, kinda looks out.

1171
00:50:29,697 --> 00:50:31,699
And, boom.

1172
00:50:31,782 --> 00:50:35,036
The most iconic shot, probably ever.

1173
00:50:35,119 --> 00:50:38,122
There's not a lot of knowledge on who this guy was

1174
00:50:38,205 --> 00:50:40,124
who took the photograph. You know, if he, like,

1175
00:50:40,207 --> 00:50:43,127
posed Mantle to do this, or Mantle decided to do this,

1176
00:50:43,210 --> 00:50:46,130
but Topps must have saw the image, and was like,

1177
00:50:46,213 --> 00:50:47,215
"Okay, we're gonna put th..."

1178
00:50:47,298 --> 00:50:49,592
This is gonna be our first Mickey Mantle card.

1179
00:50:49,675 --> 00:50:51,636
And the next year, that was the image

1180
00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:54,597
that was used on the '52 Topps card.

1181
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,849
- You're in the Atlantic Ocean. - And?

1182
00:50:56,932 --> 00:50:58,017
- You pull the... - Yeah, there's a...

1183
00:50:58,100 --> 00:51:00,937
There's a... rusty lever,

1184
00:51:01,020 --> 00:51:04,774
in the heart and then, it had like a...

1185
00:51:04,857 --> 00:51:08,152
A space where a guy goes... [making lever pulling sound]

1186
00:51:08,235 --> 00:51:10,738
and they all go... whoop!

1187
00:51:10,821 --> 00:51:12,198
And there it was.

1188
00:51:12,281 --> 00:51:15,326
[upbeat music]

1189
00:51:15,409 --> 00:51:18,079
Sy Berger was immensely important to the hobby

1190
00:51:18,162 --> 00:51:21,165
because he was known as the father

1191
00:51:21,248 --> 00:51:24,544
for the modern trading cards.
He and Woody Gelman are both

1192
00:51:24,627 --> 00:51:27,922
from the Topps company. Sy Berger in the late '40s,

1193
00:51:28,005 --> 00:51:29,757
he revolutionized sports cards

1194
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,760
with the 1952 Topps production.

1195
00:51:32,843 --> 00:51:35,930
My favorite, baseball cards.

1196
00:51:36,013 --> 00:51:38,057
These machines can even count the number

1197
00:51:38,140 --> 00:51:40,685
of cards going into each pack.

1198
00:51:40,768 --> 00:51:42,812
The wrappers come in large rolls.

1199
00:51:42,895 --> 00:51:45,773
The machines cut them to just the right size,

1200
00:51:45,856 --> 00:51:48,484
and wrap and seal each package.

1201
00:51:48,567 --> 00:51:50,820
Prior to 1952 Topps cards,

1202
00:51:50,903 --> 00:51:52,697
they had a picture of the athlete,

1203
00:51:52,780 --> 00:51:53,906
didn't say much on the back.

1204
00:51:53,989 --> 00:51:56,284
Again, it was more for advertising purposes.

1205
00:51:56,367 --> 00:51:58,077
To advertise a particular product.

1206
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,788
With Topps, and Mr. Berger in particular,

1207
00:52:00,871 --> 00:52:03,249
these were, at first, when Mr. Berger came on board,

1208
00:52:03,332 --> 00:52:05,835
the trading cards were
produced with a piece of taffy.

1209
00:52:05,918 --> 00:52:08,713
He noticed the taffy was kind of taking the taste

1210
00:52:08,796 --> 00:52:10,506
of the cards themselves.

1211
00:52:10,589 --> 00:52:12,592
So Topps began producing the cards

1212
00:52:12,675 --> 00:52:13,968
with the bubblegum inside.

1213
00:52:14,051 --> 00:52:15,803
I believe his first day was when Bazooka

1214
00:52:15,886 --> 00:52:19,390
was acquired by Topps. So Mr. Berger redesigned...

1215
00:52:19,473 --> 00:52:23,102
With Woody Gelman, redesigned the 1952 set

1216
00:52:23,185 --> 00:52:25,313
to include a color photograph of the player,

1217
00:52:25,396 --> 00:52:26,898
a facsimile autograph,

1218
00:52:26,981 --> 00:52:29,901
the actual logo from the individual teams.

1219
00:52:29,984 --> 00:52:33,154
Revolutionary! You flip it
over, you have stats on the back

1220
00:52:33,237 --> 00:52:35,698
that talk about the prior year's stats.

1221
00:52:35,781 --> 00:52:39,160
The career for that player,
and a story about that player.

1222
00:52:39,243 --> 00:52:40,536
I mean, it is today,

1223
00:52:40,619 --> 00:52:42,872
what the modern baseball card is today

1224
00:52:42,955 --> 00:52:45,875
wouldn't be there if not for
Sy Berger and Woody Gelman

1225
00:52:45,958 --> 00:52:49,670
being, you know, the pioneers of that whole art

1226
00:52:49,754 --> 00:52:51,172
of baseball card making.

1227
00:52:51,255 --> 00:52:54,258
The background of it, Topps had so many cases,

1228
00:52:54,342 --> 00:52:55,426
and extra stuff, and they held 'em

1229
00:52:55,509 --> 00:52:57,178
for a couple years, then...

1230
00:52:57,261 --> 00:52:58,429
didn't know what to do with 'em, and...

1231
00:52:58,512 --> 00:52:59,430
[laughing]

1232
00:52:59,513 --> 00:53:02,767
Sy Berger, who founded Topps, you know, decided to just

1233
00:53:02,850 --> 00:53:03,976
dump it in the ocean.

1234
00:53:04,060 --> 00:53:06,562
So how many millions and millions and millions

1235
00:53:06,645 --> 00:53:09,690
of dollars got dumped into the ocean because

1236
00:53:09,774 --> 00:53:11,359
they didn't know what to do with these cards?

1237
00:53:11,442 --> 00:53:12,860
You know, that makes it...

1238
00:53:12,943 --> 00:53:16,155
a smaller number of Mickey Mantles out there.

1239
00:53:16,238 --> 00:53:18,199
My dad always would tell me the story.

1240
00:53:18,282 --> 00:53:20,159
He grew up a Brooklyn Dodgers fan

1241
00:53:20,242 --> 00:53:22,870
in Minnesota, because the Twins weren't around yet.

1242
00:53:22,953 --> 00:53:25,289
And... so he'd collect Brooklyn Dodgers,

1243
00:53:25,373 --> 00:53:28,167
and he'd hear all the people put 'em in the bike spokes,

1244
00:53:28,250 --> 00:53:29,335
you know, stuff like that.

1245
00:53:29,418 --> 00:53:30,795
He didn't like the Yankees at all.

1246
00:53:30,878 --> 00:53:32,588
It was the Dodgers, it was the Dodgers.

1247
00:53:32,672 --> 00:53:34,173
He's like, I don't know how many Mantles

1248
00:53:34,256 --> 00:53:35,758
I probably would have had that I would have

1249
00:53:35,841 --> 00:53:37,385
stuck in those bike spokes, you know?

1250
00:53:37,468 --> 00:53:39,220
So every time... my dad's 77 now.

1251
00:53:39,303 --> 00:53:41,681
Every time a Mickey Mantle
sells for how many millions

1252
00:53:41,764 --> 00:53:44,100
of dollars, call up my dad, say...

1253
00:53:44,183 --> 00:53:45,476
[laughing] Kinda joke with him

1254
00:53:45,559 --> 00:53:47,228
and be like, "We could have been millionaires!"

1255
00:53:47,311 --> 00:53:48,354
So...

1256
00:53:48,437 --> 00:53:51,857
- It's interesting that card
has just taken a life of its own.

1257
00:53:53,275 --> 00:53:55,027
The Honus Wagner T206 card

1258
00:53:55,111 --> 00:53:58,197
is probably the most iconic sports card ever.

1259
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:01,242
- The Honus Wagner. - Yeah.

1260
00:54:01,325 --> 00:54:03,703
Yeah, the T206 card, uh, interesting card.

1261
00:54:03,786 --> 00:54:07,498
Uh, from 1909, it was... one of the tobacco cards.

1262
00:54:07,581 --> 00:54:08,416
It's a holy grail.

1263
00:54:08,499 --> 00:54:10,793
There's very, very limited amounts of copies of it.

1264
00:54:10,876 --> 00:54:12,169
♪ Hallelujah ♪

1265
00:54:13,170 --> 00:54:15,089
♪ Hallelujah ♪

1266
00:54:15,172 --> 00:54:17,216
♪ Hallelujah, hallelujah ♪

1267
00:54:17,299 --> 00:54:19,051
♪ Hallelujah ♪

1268
00:54:19,135 --> 00:54:21,512
Honus Wagner was probably one of the greatest

1269
00:54:21,595 --> 00:54:23,639
baseball players to ever play the game.

1270
00:54:23,723 --> 00:54:25,224
One of the great shortstops of all time

1271
00:54:25,307 --> 00:54:27,518
for the Pittsburgh Pirates. - The Flying Dutchman,

1272
00:54:27,601 --> 00:54:30,146
known for his speed, known for his hitting ability.

1273
00:54:30,229 --> 00:54:31,689
Retired in 1919.

1274
00:54:31,772 --> 00:54:33,649
He was one of the original five

1275
00:54:33,733 --> 00:54:35,234
inducted into the Hall of Fame,

1276
00:54:35,317 --> 00:54:37,278
with Babe Ruth, Walter Johnson,

1277
00:54:37,361 --> 00:54:39,530
and Honus Wagner.

1278
00:54:39,613 --> 00:54:41,657
Like, that's the pedigree in and of itself.

1279
00:54:41,741 --> 00:54:44,243
Honestly, I'd have an insurance policy on it,

1280
00:54:44,326 --> 00:54:47,747
and I'd probably keep it in a safety deposit box.

1281
00:54:47,830 --> 00:54:50,041
I'd probably visit the safety deposit box

1282
00:54:50,124 --> 00:54:52,043
pretty regularly to take a peek at it.

1283
00:54:52,126 --> 00:54:54,253
There's two legends as to why that card

1284
00:54:54,337 --> 00:54:55,880
was limited in production.

1285
00:54:55,963 --> 00:54:58,424
He either did not want children buying packs

1286
00:54:58,507 --> 00:55:00,760
of cigarettes just to try and get his baseball card,

1287
00:55:00,843 --> 00:55:02,428
or he wanted to be compensated more

1288
00:55:02,511 --> 00:55:04,972
from the tobacco company for using his likeness

1289
00:55:05,056 --> 00:55:06,140
on this card.

1290
00:55:06,223 --> 00:55:09,310
And that photo is, you know, really iconic as well.

1291
00:55:09,393 --> 00:55:10,770
And that's from 1905.

1292
00:55:10,853 --> 00:55:13,689
That photo was actually
taken four years before the card.

1293
00:55:13,773 --> 00:55:16,525
[music fades]

1294
00:55:16,692 --> 00:55:20,279
- This call is originating from
an Ohio Correctional Facility,

1295
00:55:20,363 --> 00:55:23,074
and may be recorded and monitored.

1296
00:55:23,157 --> 00:55:25,368
Just kinda shot my shot and tried it on my own,

1297
00:55:25,451 --> 00:55:28,454
and-and in the beginning, it was... I mean, it was...

1298
00:55:28,537 --> 00:55:29,580
I wouldn't say difficult,

1299
00:55:29,663 --> 00:55:31,582
but a lot more tedious, you know?

1300
00:55:31,665 --> 00:55:34,544
Lot of... lot of practice, lot
of sheets of notebook paper

1301
00:55:34,627 --> 00:55:37,380
with-with tons of... tons of practice, uh,

1302
00:55:37,463 --> 00:55:39,757
signatures. You know, just a full...

1303
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:41,384
One signature on one football,

1304
00:55:41,467 --> 00:55:43,052
or one signature on one photo.

1305
00:55:43,135 --> 00:55:45,930
But as it progressed, you know, by the end,

1306
00:55:46,013 --> 00:55:48,766
I even, to this day, I probably know

1307
00:55:48,849 --> 00:55:51,060
300-400 signatures off the top of my head.

1308
00:55:51,143 --> 00:55:53,145
Don't have to look at any examples, nothin'.

1309
00:55:53,229 --> 00:55:56,274
And-and... towards the end of, you know, of the whole

1310
00:55:56,357 --> 00:55:58,526
activity and everything, there was never looking up

1311
00:55:58,609 --> 00:56:00,319
any signatures. It was sit there

1312
00:56:00,403 --> 00:56:03,155
with my pack of 200, 300, 400, 500 photos

1313
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,783
and... sit there and sign 'em one after another.

1314
00:56:05,866 --> 00:56:07,827
Never looked at a signature. Nothin'.

1315
00:56:07,910 --> 00:56:10,913
Kinda like a... a... a dubious achievement, I guess,

1316
00:56:10,996 --> 00:56:13,124
but I don't wanna say I was cocky about it,

1317
00:56:13,207 --> 00:56:15,585
but it was, you know, it was...

1318
00:56:15,668 --> 00:56:18,337
there was some entertainment
value there that people...

1319
00:56:18,421 --> 00:56:20,423
I-I found it very easy to do,

1320
00:56:20,506 --> 00:56:24,552
but other people found, uh, you know, it was more

1321
00:56:24,635 --> 00:56:27,471
in-in amazement of-of... that I could just recall

1322
00:56:27,555 --> 00:56:29,640
the signatures off the top of my head, so,

1323
00:56:29,724 --> 00:56:31,684
you know, a lot of times it became like a...

1324
00:56:31,767 --> 00:56:34,103
Big-big party joke, or... you know,

1325
00:56:34,186 --> 00:56:37,106
out at the bar and sign someone's name on a napkin,

1326
00:56:37,189 --> 00:56:38,733
or-or whatever.

1327
00:56:38,816 --> 00:56:41,569
I do mostly federal work in New York.

1328
00:56:41,652 --> 00:56:45,114
I represented John Gotti. I represented at trial

1329
00:56:45,197 --> 00:56:47,033
and got an acquittal and a hung jury.

1330
00:56:47,116 --> 00:56:48,367
I've represented El Chapo,

1331
00:56:48,451 --> 00:56:51,329
I've represented some of
the biggest criminal defendants

1332
00:56:51,412 --> 00:56:52,955
in the history of the country,

1333
00:56:53,039 --> 00:56:55,499
and yet here I am, representing people in the hobby

1334
00:56:55,583 --> 00:56:58,002
because of the love of the hobby for me.

1335
00:56:58,085 --> 00:57:00,880
These are not the kind of cases I would normally take,

1336
00:57:00,963 --> 00:57:03,341
but I have such a passion for it,

1337
00:57:03,424 --> 00:57:04,967
I can't really turn it down.

1338
00:57:05,051 --> 00:57:06,761
And that's why, you know, I'm here.

1339
00:57:06,844 --> 00:57:09,597
There's no other explanation
why a lawyer, doing the kind

1340
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,642
of stuff I do, would ever be at...

1341
00:57:12,725 --> 00:57:15,269
this ridiculous baseball
card national for three days

1342
00:57:15,353 --> 00:57:17,313
in the middle of the summer in Chicago.

1343
00:57:17,396 --> 00:57:20,066
[calm music]

1344
00:57:20,149 --> 00:57:22,693
I'm not gonna mention the auction house, um...

1345
00:57:22,777 --> 00:57:26,113
I had an elderly woman who, uh, gave a consignment,

1346
00:57:26,197 --> 00:57:28,616
uh, to an auction house, and the auction house...

1347
00:57:28,699 --> 00:57:31,952
The representative stole most of her collection.

1348
00:57:32,036 --> 00:57:34,538
So I had to, uh, wrangle some money

1349
00:57:34,622 --> 00:57:37,917
out of the auction house,
and we're settling it privately.

1350
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:39,835
Um, I had the... other auction houses

1351
00:57:39,919 --> 00:57:42,129
that I've had to sue, um, that I've had to fight

1352
00:57:42,213 --> 00:57:44,590
to get money back for people that they defrauded.

1353
00:57:44,674 --> 00:57:46,175
I've also represented many people that have

1354
00:57:46,258 --> 00:57:48,219
been accused of crimes. I saw a client here

1355
00:57:48,302 --> 00:57:51,722
who spent three months in
jail, that I represented on, um...

1356
00:57:51,806 --> 00:57:55,393
He was, uh... convicted of selling game-use...

1357
00:57:55,476 --> 00:57:57,395
Fake game-used jerseys.

1358
00:57:57,478 --> 00:57:59,855
Um, but this is what the hobby is.

1359
00:57:59,939 --> 00:58:00,856
It's all about money.

1360
00:58:00,940 --> 00:58:02,566
Whenever there's a lot of money involved,

1361
00:58:02,650 --> 00:58:04,151
there's a lot of fraud involved.

1362
00:58:04,235 --> 00:58:06,445
And if there's a lot of money and fraud involved,

1363
00:58:06,529 --> 00:58:09,448
it should be regulated. There's no regulation here,

1364
00:58:09,532 --> 00:58:12,284
so criminals are running absolutely rampant.

1365
00:58:12,368 --> 00:58:14,078
And the people that'll tell ya, "Oh, you know",

1366
00:58:14,161 --> 00:58:15,413
"you're acting like chicken little,

1367
00:58:15,496 --> 00:58:18,040
"the sky is falling." The only people that say

1368
00:58:18,124 --> 00:58:21,335
that the fraud is not rife in this hobby

1369
00:58:21,419 --> 00:58:23,754
are the ones that are
committing the fraud themselves,

1370
00:58:23,838 --> 00:58:26,173
or are co-conspirators to the fraudsters.

1371
00:58:26,257 --> 00:58:28,884
Anybody with a brain knows how bad it is.

1372
00:58:28,968 --> 00:58:31,762
Unfortunately in this hobby,
not everybody has a brain.

1373
00:58:31,846 --> 00:58:32,847
What is goin' on, everybody?

1374
00:58:32,930 --> 00:58:34,306
Hope you guys are doing well out there.

1375
00:58:34,390 --> 00:58:36,767
That is right, we are back...

1376
00:58:36,851 --> 00:58:40,646
here, on the Sportscard Radio Program.

1377
00:58:40,730 --> 00:58:42,732
This kind of reminds me of our old podcasting days,

1378
00:58:42,815 --> 00:58:44,066
Ryan, where we'd sit down

1379
00:58:44,150 --> 00:58:47,111
and really have a nice discussion about...

1380
00:58:47,194 --> 00:58:49,030
maybe a card show, maybe stuff going on

1381
00:58:49,113 --> 00:58:50,239
in the hobby.

1382
00:58:50,322 --> 00:58:54,952
[upbeat music]

1383
00:59:13,304 --> 00:59:14,347
The girls...

1384
00:59:14,430 --> 00:59:16,432
at the Pokemon booths...

1385
00:59:16,515 --> 00:59:19,352
are always a lot prettier than the guys...

1386
00:59:19,435 --> 00:59:21,395
at the card booths.

1387
00:59:21,479 --> 00:59:25,107
[calm music]

1388
00:59:25,191 --> 00:59:26,692
There's a lot of hot-button issues,

1389
00:59:26,776 --> 00:59:30,529
and there's a lot of topics inside a industry

1390
00:59:30,613 --> 00:59:32,740
like sports trading cards that nobody else is

1391
00:59:32,823 --> 00:59:34,867
going to talk about, or very few people

1392
00:59:34,950 --> 00:59:36,660
are gonna be talking about,

1393
00:59:36,744 --> 00:59:39,413
and I like to talk about those types of subjects,

1394
00:59:39,497 --> 00:59:41,916
and over the years have started talking about

1395
00:59:41,999 --> 00:59:45,711
more of the shady things going on in the industry,

1396
00:59:45,795 --> 00:59:49,799
talking about more of the scandals, and more of

1397
00:59:49,882 --> 00:59:51,926
those types of things in the industry,

1398
00:59:52,009 --> 00:59:54,512
because less people talk about that,

1399
00:59:54,595 --> 00:59:56,931
and it is something that I think people

1400
00:59:57,014 --> 00:59:58,933
should be aware of if they're going to be

1401
00:59:59,016 --> 01:00:01,727
starting out in the hobby, or
they're already in the hobby.

1402
01:00:01,811 --> 01:00:02,937
A lot of people have come to me.

1403
01:00:03,020 --> 01:00:04,647
"I-I wanna make money. I wanna do this.

1404
01:00:04,730 --> 01:00:06,107
"I wanna do this." But they don't get it.

1405
01:00:06,190 --> 01:00:07,525
They don't have the business...

1406
01:00:07,608 --> 01:00:09,652
They have a lot of excuses, that's...

1407
01:00:09,735 --> 01:00:12,780
- Did the self-proclaimed hobby
watchdog known as CardPorn

1408
01:00:12,863 --> 01:00:15,866
try to pull off one of the biggest scams of all time?

1409
01:00:15,950 --> 01:00:19,328
CardPorn, AKA Juan Garcia, deleted his Instagram

1410
01:00:19,412 --> 01:00:20,788
and Twitter accounts this morning.

1411
01:00:20,871 --> 01:00:22,873
So hard...

1412
01:00:22,957 --> 01:00:25,209
to expose these guys,

1413
01:00:25,292 --> 01:00:27,795
from day one.

1414
01:00:27,878 --> 01:00:30,339
I understand, you know, uh...

1415
01:00:30,423 --> 01:00:33,718
Jurisdiction, if you will, over card-breaking.

1416
01:00:33,801 --> 01:00:36,762
That's why us as a community, we need to stick together.

1417
01:00:36,846 --> 01:00:39,640
We need to have high standards.

1418
01:00:39,724 --> 01:00:42,893
So, Sportscard Radio started, at this point,

1419
01:00:42,977 --> 01:00:46,188
15 years ago, back in 2008.

1420
01:00:46,272 --> 01:00:49,567
And I would say over the
years, our-our show has evolved.

1421
01:00:49,650 --> 01:00:51,944
It started out as very informative,

1422
01:00:52,028 --> 01:00:53,529
and maybe G-rated.

1423
01:00:53,612 --> 01:00:55,698
And over the years, The Sportscard Show

1424
01:00:55,781 --> 01:00:59,744
and Sportscard Radio has gotten a little more edgy,

1425
01:00:59,827 --> 01:01:02,455
and maybe a little bit more vulgar, um...

1426
01:01:02,538 --> 01:01:05,875
but it's been, uh... it's been a fun journey.

1427
01:01:05,958 --> 01:01:10,087
And it's led us to a lot of interesting places.

1428
01:01:10,171 --> 01:01:12,673
It's gotten us in confrontations.

1429
01:01:12,757 --> 01:01:15,426
It's gotten us lawsuit threats.

1430
01:01:15,509 --> 01:01:18,846
It's gotten us, um... a lot of different things.

1431
01:01:18,929 --> 01:01:19,972
We've done a lot of different things

1432
01:01:20,056 --> 01:01:21,599
because of the podcast.

1433
01:01:21,682 --> 01:01:25,728
And I don't anticipate...

1434
01:01:25,811 --> 01:01:27,480
slowing down anytime soon.

1435
01:01:27,563 --> 01:01:29,315
I thought it was the dumbest idea ever.

1436
01:01:29,398 --> 01:01:31,025
I remember, he came to me, he said, "Hey, I'm gonna"

1437
01:01:31,108 --> 01:01:33,152
"put up this podcast about sports cards,"

1438
01:01:33,235 --> 01:01:35,029
and I just thought it was the dumbest idea.

1439
01:01:35,112 --> 01:01:37,365
He had about two or three other ideas at the time

1440
01:01:37,448 --> 01:01:38,657
that I thought were way better.

1441
01:01:38,741 --> 01:01:41,285
Of course, those ideas never came to fruition.

1442
01:01:41,369 --> 01:01:43,412
So he starts doing this podcast.

1443
01:01:43,496 --> 01:01:44,663
I thought it was the stupidest thing ever,

1444
01:01:44,747 --> 01:01:46,749
and then sure enough, about three or four episodes in,

1445
01:01:46,832 --> 01:01:49,251
he starts getting emails about people listening

1446
01:01:49,335 --> 01:01:51,754
to this freakin' podcast. So at that point,

1447
01:01:51,837 --> 01:01:55,091
I was way more interested. And it just grew from there.

1448
01:01:55,174 --> 01:01:56,634
We started a website.

1449
01:01:56,717 --> 01:01:59,637
We began focusing more on YouTube in 2022,

1450
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:01,806
and began putting up short-form videos,

1451
01:02:01,889 --> 01:02:04,308
and that's kind of how the channel has evolved.

1452
01:02:06,102 --> 01:02:09,313
During 2019,

1453
01:02:09,397 --> 01:02:13,567
there was some trimmed cards
and some fraudulent activity

1454
01:02:13,651 --> 01:02:16,028
that was going on inside the hobby.

1455
01:02:16,112 --> 01:02:19,490
And so Ryan started putting these people's faces

1456
01:02:19,573 --> 01:02:21,784
actually on the website.

1457
01:02:21,867 --> 01:02:24,203
Basically created the front page of our website

1458
01:02:24,286 --> 01:02:26,706
to recreate the FBI Most Wanted List,

1459
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:28,374
and we just went down the list.

1460
01:02:28,457 --> 01:02:30,042
Trimmer, trimmer, trimmer, trimmer.

1461
01:02:30,126 --> 01:02:32,545
Gary "Scissorhands" Moser, for example.

1462
01:02:32,628 --> 01:02:34,380
We would give these guys nicknames,

1463
01:02:34,463 --> 01:02:37,550
so they became more familiar with card collectors.

1464
01:02:37,633 --> 01:02:39,969
And these are guys that not a lot of people knew.

1465
01:02:40,052 --> 01:02:42,471
But the fact that our website
was getting thousands of people

1466
01:02:42,555 --> 01:02:44,765
a day in traffic, we were creating new content

1467
01:02:44,849 --> 01:02:46,976
around these... these guys, these scammers.

1468
01:02:47,059 --> 01:02:49,353
You start putting scammers' faces on your website,

1469
01:02:49,437 --> 01:02:51,022
you start getting lawsuit threats,

1470
01:02:51,105 --> 01:02:53,274
you're gonna get traffic to your website.

1471
01:02:53,357 --> 01:02:55,693
[ethereal music]

1472
01:02:55,776 --> 01:02:59,488
Brent Huigens of PWCC Auction House.

1473
01:02:59,572 --> 01:03:01,365
So his auction house essentially takes in

1474
01:03:01,449 --> 01:03:05,202
consignment, he takes in
cards, he takes in people's items.

1475
01:03:05,286 --> 01:03:07,288
He has a vault in...

1476
01:03:07,371 --> 01:03:10,541
I believe it's Lake Oswego, Oregon,

1477
01:03:10,624 --> 01:03:12,960
where he stores a lot of these items.

1478
01:03:13,044 --> 01:03:16,172
He's categorizing them, he's listing them.

1479
01:03:16,255 --> 01:03:19,508
In the past, he actually was able to list them on eBay.

1480
01:03:19,592 --> 01:03:21,677
And so you would send him your cards,

1481
01:03:21,761 --> 01:03:25,264
and he would list them on the PWCC Marketplace site.

1482
01:03:25,348 --> 01:03:27,433
But they would also get listed on eBay.

1483
01:03:27,516 --> 01:03:32,104
The most terrible thing an auction can do on eBay,

1484
01:03:32,188 --> 01:03:34,523
and that was... they were shilling the own items.

1485
01:03:34,607 --> 01:03:36,567
So essentially, somebody would maybe

1486
01:03:36,650 --> 01:03:38,736
send in a card, or a piece of memorabilia

1487
01:03:38,819 --> 01:03:42,948
for PWCC to sell. It would get listed on eBay,

1488
01:03:43,032 --> 01:03:46,077
and Brent Huigens would instruct people

1489
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,747
to bid on these items. He would instruct you.

1490
01:03:49,830 --> 01:03:53,751
Go ahead and bid $150, $200, a thousand dollars,

1491
01:03:53,834 --> 01:03:57,672
on different types of items
to artificially raise the price.

1492
01:03:57,755 --> 01:03:59,924
And so when finally the final bidder,

1493
01:04:00,007 --> 01:04:02,677
or the final collector came in there and finally

1494
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:07,056
won the auction, it would
sell for more than potentially

1495
01:04:07,139 --> 01:04:09,308
it would have without the shill bidding,

1496
01:04:09,392 --> 01:04:11,227
or the artificial bugging underneath that.

1497
01:04:11,310 --> 01:04:13,104
Not only that,

1498
01:04:13,187 --> 01:04:16,273
several of the PWCC employees,

1499
01:04:16,357 --> 01:04:18,192
and even Brent Huigens himself,

1500
01:04:18,275 --> 01:04:20,361
were also involved in card trimming.

1501
01:04:20,444 --> 01:04:23,072
[calm music]

1502
01:04:28,452 --> 01:04:31,455
What do we have to say to the people that...

1503
01:04:31,539 --> 01:04:33,833
say Sportscard Radio's too negative?

1504
01:04:33,916 --> 01:04:36,127
Say that we call out...

1505
01:04:36,210 --> 01:04:40,214
too many people? We shed too much light

1506
01:04:40,297 --> 01:04:42,717
on the negative in the hobby?

1507
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:45,136
What do I have to say to those people?

1508
01:04:45,219 --> 01:04:46,470
Suck my fuckin' dick.

1509
01:04:46,554 --> 01:04:48,931
Like...

1510
01:04:49,015 --> 01:04:50,599
we're here for a reason.

1511
01:04:50,683 --> 01:04:53,519
There are plenty of people in this hobby

1512
01:04:53,602 --> 01:04:55,521
that spend every waking hour talking

1513
01:04:55,604 --> 01:04:59,817
only about the positive aspects
of a hobby, only shedding light

1514
01:04:59,900 --> 01:05:02,278
on the positive things.

1515
01:05:02,361 --> 01:05:04,697
There's plenty of people that do that.

1516
01:05:04,780 --> 01:05:06,824
There are far less people

1517
01:05:06,907 --> 01:05:08,951
that are talking about the scams,

1518
01:05:09,035 --> 01:05:10,578
talking about the fraud,

1519
01:05:10,661 --> 01:05:12,329
and talking about the ways you can get ripped off

1520
01:05:12,413 --> 01:05:15,124
in this hobby. We're gonna continue to do it.

1521
01:05:15,207 --> 01:05:18,669
We're gonna continue to go after the scams,

1522
01:05:18,753 --> 01:05:21,047
scandals, and shadiness in this hobby,

1523
01:05:21,130 --> 01:05:22,673
and try to clean it up,

1524
01:05:22,757 --> 01:05:25,718
because that is what we think that...

1525
01:05:25,801 --> 01:05:28,721
the hobby needs, every once in a while.

1526
01:05:28,804 --> 01:05:31,432
- Uh, I-I felt almost an obligation to where

1527
01:05:31,515 --> 01:05:34,101
I had to provide them with items, because had I not,

1528
01:05:34,185 --> 01:05:36,103
they were gonna do it on their own.

1529
01:05:36,187 --> 01:05:38,814
And that was a... a worse scenario

1530
01:05:38,898 --> 01:05:41,650
than me just giving them the items.

1531
01:05:41,734 --> 01:05:44,028
You know? So it's... it's funny to think about it,

1532
01:05:44,111 --> 01:05:46,697
you know, I was, in a way...

1533
01:05:46,781 --> 01:05:49,825
bound, like, to obligations to these other guys.

1534
01:05:49,909 --> 01:05:52,870
'Cause had I not provided
them with-with what they wanted,

1535
01:05:52,953 --> 01:05:53,954
they would do it on their own,

1536
01:05:54,038 --> 01:05:54,997
and that was...

1537
01:05:55,081 --> 01:05:57,291
just a ter... terrible scenario.

1538
01:06:02,588 --> 01:06:04,006
[siren blaring] - Calling all units,

1539
01:06:04,090 --> 01:06:07,093
A21 at 6759. Back-up needed.

1540
01:06:08,094 --> 01:06:11,514
Canfield police made a traffic stop.

1541
01:06:11,597 --> 01:06:15,226
Jon and April Blosser, they were known drug addicts

1542
01:06:15,309 --> 01:06:18,104
in the area, and they were creating havoc

1543
01:06:18,187 --> 01:06:20,606
doing theft from autos, meaning they would go in

1544
01:06:20,690 --> 01:06:24,568
residential neighborhoods,
pull on unlocked car doors,

1545
01:06:24,652 --> 01:06:27,613
enter these cars, and steal credit cards.

1546
01:06:27,697 --> 01:06:29,365
People's credit cards.

1547
01:06:29,448 --> 01:06:32,076
I was contacted about 2:00 in the morning.

1548
01:06:32,159 --> 01:06:34,662
We went and interviewed them. We did a search warrant

1549
01:06:34,745 --> 01:06:37,289
on the vehicle, and their apartment complex.

1550
01:06:37,373 --> 01:06:39,959
What we located was...

1551
01:06:40,042 --> 01:06:42,586
a huge amount of stolen items.

1552
01:06:42,670 --> 01:06:45,881
Credit cards, cell phones,
things that you would normally

1553
01:06:45,965 --> 01:06:47,883
keep in a car.

1554
01:06:47,967 --> 01:06:51,721
The large amount of evidence that we took,

1555
01:06:51,804 --> 01:06:53,764
I contacted the prosecutor's office,

1556
01:06:53,848 --> 01:06:55,516
and I said "Listen",

1557
01:06:55,599 --> 01:06:59,228
"there's more involved here.
There's a lot of stolen items."

1558
01:06:59,311 --> 01:07:02,940
And the amount of gift cards that we were...

1559
01:07:03,024 --> 01:07:05,234
That we obtained through the search warrant.

1560
01:07:05,317 --> 01:07:08,279
This case came along, and I was approached by

1561
01:07:08,362 --> 01:07:10,698
a fellow prosecutor.

1562
01:07:10,781 --> 01:07:14,285
Uh, and she had indicated that, uh, Detective McGivern

1563
01:07:14,368 --> 01:07:17,496
had had an incident where... uh, two individuals

1564
01:07:17,580 --> 01:07:20,332
were caught with several stolen credit cards,

1565
01:07:20,416 --> 01:07:23,169
and he was looking to see, given this was a...

1566
01:07:23,252 --> 01:07:25,254
There was a pattern here, if that was something

1567
01:07:25,338 --> 01:07:27,256
that would fit into this, engaging in a pattern

1568
01:07:27,340 --> 01:07:29,091
of corrupt activity statute.

1569
01:07:29,175 --> 01:07:31,844
Told my colleague to, uh, let, uh, Detective McGivern

1570
01:07:31,927 --> 01:07:33,137
know that, you know, I'd be interested.

1571
01:07:33,220 --> 01:07:34,764
I'd walk him through the investigation and...

1572
01:07:34,847 --> 01:07:36,557
And see what we had.

1573
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:38,893
Uh, shortly after that, I met with him.

1574
01:07:38,976 --> 01:07:41,354
And he had indicated that there were two people,

1575
01:07:41,437 --> 01:07:44,315
the April and Jon Blosser who had been caught

1576
01:07:44,398 --> 01:07:48,235
with stolen credit cards. And so I... I gave, uh,

1577
01:07:48,319 --> 01:07:50,571
Detective... Detective McGivern, uh, a list of things

1578
01:07:50,654 --> 01:07:52,573
that I wanted to see done. For instance, I wanted

1579
01:07:52,656 --> 01:07:54,658
all of those credit cards tracked down. You know,

1580
01:07:54,742 --> 01:07:57,495
when they were stolen, where they were stolen from,

1581
01:07:57,578 --> 01:07:59,205
if they were used. If they were used,

1582
01:07:59,288 --> 01:08:01,999
where were they used? What was purchased with them?

1583
01:08:02,083 --> 01:08:05,211
He came back to me, and he had discovered that

1584
01:08:05,294 --> 01:08:08,214
these credit cards were being
used to purchase gift cards.

1585
01:08:08,297 --> 01:08:11,258
And so, these gift cards are then being sold on eBay

1586
01:08:11,342 --> 01:08:13,344
and things like that, so, you know, $500 worth

1587
01:08:13,427 --> 01:08:16,722
of gift cards for $250.

1588
01:08:16,806 --> 01:08:18,641
So I told 'em, if you can, try to track down and see

1589
01:08:18,724 --> 01:08:20,393
where those gift cards are being used.

1590
01:08:20,476 --> 01:08:21,644
There's more to the story,

1591
01:08:21,727 --> 01:08:24,063
and I really need to know...

1592
01:08:24,146 --> 01:08:27,191
what's going on, and how they're makin' money.

1593
01:08:28,317 --> 01:08:30,277
[calm music]

1594
01:08:30,361 --> 01:08:33,030
- One of my co-defendants, Jason Lenzi, got me involved

1595
01:08:33,114 --> 01:08:35,324
in it, he was a big autograph collector.

1596
01:08:35,408 --> 01:08:38,452
Took me with a couple times,
I saw how successful it was.

1597
01:08:38,536 --> 01:08:40,705
He was a collector. I was more...

1598
01:08:40,788 --> 01:08:43,457
More of a businessman. So I'm... we're goin'...

1599
01:08:43,541 --> 01:08:45,960
he's collecting, I'm re-selling on eBay.

1600
01:08:46,043 --> 01:08:47,628
It continues all throughout college.

1601
01:08:47,712 --> 01:08:51,215
And we're goin' to Huntsville Stars games,

1602
01:08:51,298 --> 01:08:53,634
graphing players like Matt LaPorta

1603
01:08:53,718 --> 01:08:55,761
and Michael Brantley.

1604
01:08:55,845 --> 01:08:58,222
It just continued all the way, um...

1605
01:08:58,305 --> 01:09:00,850
Playin' professional baseball,
playing independent ball.

1606
01:09:00,933 --> 01:09:03,519
In the off season, traveling all over the country.

1607
01:09:03,602 --> 01:09:06,897
I started helping Cliff, um, back in Ohio,

1608
01:09:06,981 --> 01:09:09,692
mainly because I had retired early to take...

1609
01:09:09,775 --> 01:09:11,819
Stay home and take care of my mom.

1610
01:09:11,902 --> 01:09:14,280
So after that, Cliff was like, "Well, you have spare time."

1611
01:09:14,363 --> 01:09:16,741
"You wanna help me out?" You know, I'll bring you stuff

1612
01:09:16,824 --> 01:09:18,993
to bring to the post office, you come down to my house

1613
01:09:19,076 --> 01:09:21,454
and help me, so it kinda started like that.

1614
01:09:21,537 --> 01:09:24,165
This was absolutely my sole... my sole income.

1615
01:09:24,248 --> 01:09:26,500
It was Monday through Friday,

1616
01:09:26,584 --> 01:09:30,046
I trained. Saturday/Sunday, I'd travel the country,

1617
01:09:30,129 --> 01:09:32,214
obtain autographs, come back home,

1618
01:09:32,298 --> 01:09:33,466
sell 'em on eBay.

1619
01:09:33,549 --> 01:09:35,509
Different players, different schools.

1620
01:09:35,593 --> 01:09:38,304
Like, week one of the football season was...

1621
01:09:38,387 --> 01:09:39,847
USC was playin' at Columbus,

1622
01:09:39,930 --> 01:09:44,018
only Columbus drove from there straight to

1623
01:09:44,101 --> 01:09:47,730
Stillwater, Oklahoma, for Oklahoma State Cowboys,

1624
01:09:47,813 --> 01:09:49,273
when Dez Bryant was there.

1625
01:09:49,357 --> 01:09:51,025
Straight from there to Norman, Oklahoma,

1626
01:09:51,108 --> 01:09:54,028
for Sam Bradford. Back home,

1627
01:09:54,111 --> 01:09:56,864
list everything on Monday. Do it again next weekend.

1628
01:09:56,947 --> 01:10:00,409
- I knew for an absolute fact
that he traveled everywhere

1629
01:10:00,493 --> 01:10:02,703
across the country to get autographs,

1630
01:10:02,787 --> 01:10:04,747
because I would go take care of his house.

1631
01:10:04,830 --> 01:10:06,707
He lived about 10 miles from us,

1632
01:10:06,791 --> 01:10:08,501
and we'd go down and cut his grass,

1633
01:10:08,584 --> 01:10:10,711
or clean up the house, or whatever while he was gone.

1634
01:10:10,795 --> 01:10:12,505
Check on the house, 'cause it was empty.

1635
01:10:12,588 --> 01:10:14,715
He was out of state, gettin' autographs.

1636
01:10:14,799 --> 01:10:15,800
Autograph hunts.

1637
01:10:15,883 --> 01:10:18,010
He'd call, "Hey, I gotta go to Texas"

1638
01:10:18,094 --> 01:10:19,679
"for three days," or "I gotta go to Miami

1639
01:10:19,762 --> 01:10:22,890
"and... "or "I gotta go to the Super Bowl."

1640
01:10:22,973 --> 01:10:24,350
And it was a legitimate business.

1641
01:10:24,433 --> 01:10:26,519
I did have players...

1642
01:10:26,602 --> 01:10:28,813
so to speak, on... on the payroll, that...

1643
01:10:28,896 --> 01:10:31,732
I was paying, over the course of the season,

1644
01:10:31,816 --> 01:10:35,486
for... not just autographs, but game-used memorabilia

1645
01:10:35,569 --> 01:10:38,030
in some cases. The Johnny Manziel incident,

1646
01:10:38,114 --> 01:10:41,242
where he got suspended for one half a football,

1647
01:10:41,325 --> 01:10:43,744
because they couldn't prove he got paid

1648
01:10:43,828 --> 01:10:45,621
for an autograph signing.

1649
01:10:45,705 --> 01:10:46,831
It happened in Miami, Florida.

1650
01:10:46,914 --> 01:10:48,624
I... part of my money was part of it,

1651
01:10:48,708 --> 01:10:49,875
I know the guys that ran it.

1652
01:10:49,959 --> 01:10:53,337
I had pictures from an autograph signing.

1653
01:10:53,421 --> 01:10:56,716
I know that part of the deal was...

1654
01:10:56,799 --> 01:10:59,260
Johnny wanted bottles of Ciroc Red Berry there

1655
01:10:59,343 --> 01:11:00,678
while he was signing the autographs,

1656
01:11:00,761 --> 01:11:02,722
along with $2,000.

1657
01:11:02,805 --> 01:11:06,350
I really ran the business from 2006 through...

1658
01:11:06,434 --> 01:11:09,311
basically, 2010, as straightforward,

1659
01:11:09,395 --> 01:11:11,230
legitimate as... as possible.

1660
01:11:11,313 --> 01:11:14,483
I really despised the other side of...

1661
01:11:14,567 --> 01:11:16,819
Of the line, I guess. You know, I was out there

1662
01:11:16,902 --> 01:11:18,946
bustin' my hump, travelin' the country.

1663
01:11:21,741 --> 01:11:23,659
In Alabama, I traveled there with...

1664
01:11:23,743 --> 01:11:27,038
His name was Adam Bollinger,
who went uncharged in this case.

1665
01:11:27,121 --> 01:11:29,081
We were down there for about 10 days,

1666
01:11:29,165 --> 01:11:30,458
uh, over Christmas break.

1667
01:11:30,541 --> 01:11:33,627
At that point, it was... the whole trip was such a...

1668
01:11:33,711 --> 01:11:36,172
A wear and tear, and, you know,

1669
01:11:36,255 --> 01:11:39,300
10, 12, 14 hours a day, just lookin' for players,

1670
01:11:39,383 --> 01:11:41,260
payin' players.

1671
01:11:41,344 --> 01:11:42,595
It's over Christmas, but it's like,

1672
01:11:42,678 --> 01:11:45,139
a couple days before Christmas,
we both wanna get back.

1673
01:11:45,222 --> 01:11:46,849
And it's actually him that picks up the pen

1674
01:11:46,932 --> 01:11:48,225
and is like...

1675
01:11:48,309 --> 01:11:50,019
"I'll just finish these footballs."

1676
01:11:50,102 --> 01:11:51,479
"We're outta here."

1677
01:11:51,562 --> 01:11:53,439
And that's how it started. He picked up the pen,

1678
01:11:53,522 --> 01:11:56,484
finished the team balls, and we left.

1679
01:11:57,651 --> 01:12:00,321
Funny aspect of it is, he had paid Terrelle Pryor

1680
01:12:00,404 --> 01:12:03,199
multiple times for a bunch of autographs,

1681
01:12:03,282 --> 01:12:05,451
that I purchased off of him.

1682
01:12:05,534 --> 01:12:07,870
And kind of coincidentally, I'm pretty sure the ones

1683
01:12:07,953 --> 01:12:10,706
he sold me were forgeries that he did.

1684
01:12:10,790 --> 01:12:13,709
So, funny... funny aspect of the whole story is

1685
01:12:13,793 --> 01:12:15,378
I believe I got taken first,

1686
01:12:15,461 --> 01:12:18,339
before the whole scam started.

1687
01:12:18,422 --> 01:12:22,051
[calm music]

1688
01:12:23,761 --> 01:12:24,804
But it was really on the trip back

1689
01:12:24,887 --> 01:12:27,473
that the whole plan devised, and, you know, he was gonna

1690
01:12:27,556 --> 01:12:29,767
sign the items. We... we took all our memorabilia

1691
01:12:29,850 --> 01:12:31,977
we had leftover from the season.

1692
01:12:32,061 --> 01:12:34,522
Mini-helmets, footballs that
might not have got signed,

1693
01:12:34,605 --> 01:12:36,023
he signed 'em and I sold 'em.

1694
01:12:36,107 --> 01:12:37,942
And that's... that's how it started.

1695
01:12:38,025 --> 01:12:41,070
I started an account called ChampionGraphs on eBay.

1696
01:12:41,153 --> 01:12:42,780
That's all it was, was all forgeries

1697
01:12:42,863 --> 01:12:44,573
at that point.

1698
01:12:48,994 --> 01:12:50,246
20, 30-minute process.

1699
01:12:50,329 --> 01:12:52,790
I'm-I'm gonna practice and practice probably...

1700
01:12:52,873 --> 01:12:54,542
30, 40 attempts on a piece of paper

1701
01:12:54,625 --> 01:12:57,628
before it gets moved over to a photo,

1702
01:12:57,712 --> 01:13:00,464
or a baseball, or a football.

1703
01:13:00,548 --> 01:13:02,675
So anytime I was gonna duplicate a signature,

1704
01:13:02,758 --> 01:13:04,927
I'm going to eBay and looking up, theoretically,

1705
01:13:05,011 --> 01:13:07,179
a known legitimate example.

1706
01:13:07,263 --> 01:13:11,684
Which I would look up a JSA,
or a PSA-authenticated example.

1707
01:13:11,767 --> 01:13:12,893
Bryce Harper, for instance.

1708
01:13:12,977 --> 01:13:15,104
Want to duplicate a Bryce Harper autograph?

1709
01:13:15,187 --> 01:13:19,066
I'm gonna go eBay search Bryce Harper JSA,

1710
01:13:19,150 --> 01:13:22,236
pull up a known example, and-and go off that.

1711
01:13:22,319 --> 01:13:24,780
And I'll look at that signature, copy it...

1712
01:13:24,864 --> 01:13:28,492
[calm music]

1713
01:13:30,828 --> 01:13:32,246
It's that simple. A lot of the autographs

1714
01:13:32,329 --> 01:13:36,292
in industry of today's current players...

1715
01:13:36,375 --> 01:13:39,253
are so many broken-up pen strokes,

1716
01:13:39,337 --> 01:13:41,881
that the signatures are... it's-it's just simple.

1717
01:13:41,964 --> 01:13:42,965
It's easy.

1718
01:13:43,049 --> 01:13:45,176
By the peak and the end of it, there was no...

1719
01:13:45,259 --> 01:13:47,720
There was no more practice. I signed each name

1720
01:13:47,803 --> 01:13:50,473
so many times, that I don't have to look it up.

1721
01:13:50,556 --> 01:13:52,475
I can just do it off memory.

1722
01:13:52,558 --> 01:13:54,226
To-to this day,

1723
01:13:54,310 --> 01:13:58,564
I could probably do 300-400 different autographs

1724
01:13:58,647 --> 01:14:00,399
off the top of my head.

1725
01:14:00,483 --> 01:14:04,528
That to a normal... collector, normal person,

1726
01:14:04,612 --> 01:14:06,155
they would think it's authentic.

1727
01:14:06,238 --> 01:14:08,199
I'm gonna tell you this now, in case you wanna

1728
01:14:08,282 --> 01:14:10,117
segue into it at some point.

1729
01:14:10,201 --> 01:14:12,703
- Okay. - Um, I'm a magician.

1730
01:14:12,787 --> 01:14:14,372
- Okay. - I do close-up magic.

1731
01:14:14,455 --> 01:14:16,457
And that's what got me through prison.

1732
01:14:16,540 --> 01:14:19,335
Here's the four aces.

1733
01:14:19,418 --> 01:14:23,005
We have the diamond, the club, the hearts.

1734
01:14:23,089 --> 01:14:26,592
I met CJ at a home poker game.

1735
01:14:26,676 --> 01:14:29,303
We played poker a lot. Instant friendship.

1736
01:14:29,387 --> 01:14:32,973
We had a... we had a chemistry, and we became roommates.

1737
01:14:34,684 --> 01:14:38,896
I actually met Cliff through a poker game as well.

1738
01:14:38,979 --> 01:14:40,648
It was a home game.

1739
01:14:40,731 --> 01:14:44,235
I was living with CJ, and I could remember

1740
01:14:44,318 --> 01:14:46,987
he would send out mass text messages

1741
01:14:47,071 --> 01:14:48,656
to all the players of the game,

1742
01:14:48,739 --> 01:14:52,159
but it was interesting that
whenever Cliff was coming,

1743
01:14:52,243 --> 01:14:55,746
Cliff's name was brought up in these text messages,

1744
01:14:55,830 --> 01:14:59,166
as if he was a huge draw to the game,

1745
01:14:59,250 --> 01:15:01,168
because of the way he played poker,

1746
01:15:01,252 --> 01:15:03,087
and the action he brought to the game.

1747
01:15:03,170 --> 01:15:04,547
There's a skill to it. There's a skill,

1748
01:15:04,630 --> 01:15:07,341
and I have, you know, documented successes.

1749
01:15:07,425 --> 01:15:11,679
He liked to make others make the tough decision,

1750
01:15:11,762 --> 01:15:13,514
as far as the game goes.

1751
01:15:13,597 --> 01:15:16,767
At times where it was kind of like teetering,

1752
01:15:16,851 --> 01:15:18,436
one way or another, he would just put

1753
01:15:18,519 --> 01:15:20,354
all the chips in, and then make you decide

1754
01:15:20,438 --> 01:15:22,106
for him. He knew what he was doing

1755
01:15:22,189 --> 01:15:23,691
at the poker table.

1756
01:15:23,774 --> 01:15:28,320
[techno music]

1757
01:15:28,404 --> 01:15:30,781
Cliff loved... loves to have fun.

1758
01:15:30,865 --> 01:15:33,117
Cliff also likes to be the life of the party.

1759
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:35,077
He likes to have the spotlight on him.

1760
01:15:35,161 --> 01:15:37,997
He-he seeks attention.

1761
01:15:38,080 --> 01:15:41,500
Probably would have started 2012, where it was...

1762
01:15:41,584 --> 01:15:42,710
kind of progressed to the point where

1763
01:15:42,793 --> 01:15:45,212
it was more forgeries than authentic memorabilia.

1764
01:15:45,296 --> 01:15:48,549
More people got involved.

1765
01:15:48,632 --> 01:15:51,886
As my friends became aware of what was goin' on,

1766
01:15:51,969 --> 01:15:54,055
I kinda let them be involved.

1767
01:15:54,138 --> 01:15:57,016
For instance, Jason Lenzi was kinda...

1768
01:15:57,099 --> 01:15:58,559
he was never really part of the business,

1769
01:15:58,642 --> 01:15:59,810
but he'd always...

1770
01:15:59,894 --> 01:16:01,395
be asking me for items.

1771
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:03,856
Late on a house payment, late on a rent payment,

1772
01:16:03,939 --> 01:16:05,858
can you sign his bucket of baseballs?

1773
01:16:05,941 --> 01:16:08,486
That's really how the whole criminal enterprise,

1774
01:16:08,569 --> 01:16:10,321
as they called it, went.

1775
01:16:10,404 --> 01:16:12,073
It really wasn't a criminal enterprise,

1776
01:16:12,156 --> 01:16:15,076
like, I was at the top, with all these people under me,

1777
01:16:15,159 --> 01:16:18,245
working for me. They weren't working for me,

1778
01:16:18,329 --> 01:16:20,998
they were just asking me for
items that I provided for 'em.

1779
01:16:21,082 --> 01:16:23,084
I just happened to be the one that could do it.

1780
01:16:24,293 --> 01:16:26,337
We start identifying different people

1781
01:16:26,420 --> 01:16:28,631
throughout the area, and they were purchasing

1782
01:16:28,714 --> 01:16:31,300
large amounts of sports items.

1783
01:16:31,384 --> 01:16:33,969
Buckets of baseballs, two or three shopping carts

1784
01:16:34,053 --> 01:16:36,389
of footballs, um...

1785
01:16:36,472 --> 01:16:37,640
It just didn't make sense.

1786
01:16:37,723 --> 01:16:40,309
If you're stealing credit cards,

1787
01:16:40,393 --> 01:16:43,646
and you're purchasing gift cards,

1788
01:16:43,729 --> 01:16:45,606
and then you're going and taking these gift cards

1789
01:16:45,690 --> 01:16:48,526
and buying large sports items...

1790
01:16:48,609 --> 01:16:50,569
there's more to this story.

1791
01:16:50,653 --> 01:16:53,656
So I put an email out, through the investigators

1792
01:16:53,739 --> 01:16:57,284
throughout Mahoning County, and I said, "Hey",

1793
01:16:57,368 --> 01:17:01,205
"we're investigating a potential sports crime."

1794
01:17:01,288 --> 01:17:03,541
"I really don't know what I have yet."

1795
01:17:03,624 --> 01:17:07,670
But... we're identifying these people, and we put

1796
01:17:07,753 --> 01:17:11,674
the pictures out and the names
of who we were identifying.

1797
01:17:11,757 --> 01:17:14,719
So that's when the FBI called me.

1798
01:17:14,802 --> 01:17:18,055
The first time I met Tony was,
uh, at the police department.

1799
01:17:18,139 --> 01:17:21,058
This guy comes walkin' in in a... a suit.

1800
01:17:21,142 --> 01:17:22,393
And I look at him, and I'm thinkin',

1801
01:17:22,476 --> 01:17:24,562
"Oh man, this guy's just typical FBI."

1802
01:17:24,645 --> 01:17:27,148
He-he is crisp, dressed to the T,

1803
01:17:27,231 --> 01:17:30,401
came in, shook my hand, was a larger-than-life

1804
01:17:30,484 --> 01:17:32,445
kind of figure. A guy like this

1805
01:17:32,528 --> 01:17:34,780
comin' into the police department,

1806
01:17:34,864 --> 01:17:37,950
to see exactly what we have,

1807
01:17:38,034 --> 01:17:40,870
we're hittin' the tip of the iceberg here.

1808
01:17:40,953 --> 01:17:42,705
And I explained to Tony...

1809
01:17:42,788 --> 01:17:46,751
when I met him, I said, "I don't know what we're getting"

1810
01:17:46,834 --> 01:17:48,294
"ourselves involved in here,"

1811
01:17:48,377 --> 01:17:51,964
"but I just wanna put bad guys in jail."

1812
01:17:52,048 --> 01:17:54,759
"And whether or not you help us do that,"

1813
01:17:54,842 --> 01:17:56,469
"I just wanna be able to work together."

1814
01:17:56,552 --> 01:18:00,139
Because historically, the FBI never really

1815
01:18:00,222 --> 01:18:02,141
worked well with local law enforcement,

1816
01:18:02,224 --> 01:18:04,977
because they know information, um,

1817
01:18:05,061 --> 01:18:07,605
that we're really not supposed to know.

1818
01:18:07,688 --> 01:18:10,566
And I told Tony, I said, "Listen",

1819
01:18:10,649 --> 01:18:12,318
"put all that aside."

1820
01:18:12,401 --> 01:18:14,570
"I just wanna lock bad guys up."

1821
01:18:14,653 --> 01:18:16,822
"So if you have something going on,"

1822
01:18:16,906 --> 01:18:19,283
"I'd be more than happy to work with you."

1823
01:18:21,619 --> 01:18:26,290
[upbeat music]

1824
01:18:26,374 --> 01:18:27,541
Oh it is... it's a big deal.

1825
01:18:27,625 --> 01:18:29,460
Those guys are... well, they're goin' number one overall.

1826
01:18:29,543 --> 01:18:31,337
That's... they're... they're insane.

1827
01:18:31,420 --> 01:18:33,297
Right? They're crazy, crazy good.

1828
01:18:36,217 --> 01:18:37,927
- This is a rookie. - Jake Berger.

1829
01:18:38,010 --> 01:18:39,178
There he is. That's not bad.

1830
01:18:39,261 --> 01:18:40,262
Not terrible, yeah.

1831
01:18:40,346 --> 01:18:42,264
Orange autograph, numbered to 25.

1832
01:18:42,348 --> 01:18:44,600
So our online breaks started probably in,

1833
01:18:44,684 --> 01:18:47,978
like, 2013.

1834
01:18:48,062 --> 01:18:49,522
We started doing them,

1835
01:18:49,605 --> 01:18:51,691
and watching online breakers.

1836
01:18:51,774 --> 01:18:53,609
And we always kind of thought, I think, that we could

1837
01:18:53,693 --> 01:18:57,738
do the same thing, just as a fun form, moreso.

1838
01:18:57,822 --> 01:19:00,241
Not quite as much as a, uh, business.

1839
01:19:00,324 --> 01:19:04,328
2017, we decided in our basement

1840
01:19:04,412 --> 01:19:07,373
that to try to shoot a video,

1841
01:19:07,456 --> 01:19:10,001
and, uh, just give it a try.

1842
01:19:10,084 --> 01:19:12,753
Just go on YouTube and... try it out.

1843
01:19:12,837 --> 01:19:13,671
And we maybe had what...

1844
01:19:13,754 --> 01:19:15,297
Five people watch our first video?

1845
01:19:15,381 --> 01:19:17,466
I have no idea, but it was very few.

1846
01:19:17,550 --> 01:19:19,260
- Yeah, it just went from
there. It was probably terrible.

1847
01:19:19,343 --> 01:19:20,636
I'm sure it's still up there, but...

1848
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:21,595
- Yeah. - We decided we wanted

1849
01:19:21,679 --> 01:19:22,596
to keep making 'em. I don't even know

1850
01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:24,181
why we stuck with it, but we decided it was fun,

1851
01:19:24,265 --> 01:19:25,224
I guess. - Yeah, it was fun.

1852
01:19:25,307 --> 01:19:27,560
Yeah, the interaction with the community.

1853
01:19:27,643 --> 01:19:29,478
Uh, and just opening... we were gonna open up

1854
01:19:29,562 --> 01:19:31,981
the product anyway, so why not open it up,

1855
01:19:32,064 --> 01:19:33,524
uh, and have people watch.

1856
01:19:33,607 --> 01:19:35,735
- Just, like... this isn't a bad-looking card,

1857
01:19:35,818 --> 01:19:36,610
but it's not a great one. - Yeah,

1858
01:19:36,694 --> 01:19:38,654
it's not a bad-looking card. You're not buying 'em

1859
01:19:38,738 --> 01:19:41,657
necessarily for the... the face cards.

1860
01:19:41,741 --> 01:19:43,993
Next card is definitely a hit, so I'm just gonna

1861
01:19:44,076 --> 01:19:46,662
take it off-camera. I'm not looking,

1862
01:19:46,746 --> 01:19:49,540
I'll flip it over this way.

1863
01:19:49,623 --> 01:19:50,708
- Ooh! - You know what?

1864
01:19:50,791 --> 01:19:54,045
I saw ink. - Oh! Sweet!

1865
01:19:54,128 --> 01:19:57,173
Bam! We pulled, in 2018, at the National,

1866
01:19:57,256 --> 01:19:59,759
pulled a Shohei Ohtani, which is his rookie year.

1867
01:19:59,842 --> 01:20:01,385
- Yeah. - Patch out of one of one,

1868
01:20:01,469 --> 01:20:04,055
and that was like, the big... the big-time hit.

1869
01:20:04,138 --> 01:20:05,389
- Yeah. - Um, and we went from

1870
01:20:05,473 --> 01:20:07,641
having probably like 400 subscribers to having,

1871
01:20:07,725 --> 01:20:09,769
like, over a thousand almost overnight.

1872
01:20:09,852 --> 01:20:11,562
- Yeah. - And, uh, that was our big...

1873
01:20:11,645 --> 01:20:14,398
Our big hit, and that kinda
propelled everything from there,

1874
01:20:14,482 --> 01:20:15,399
I think, with YouTube.

1875
01:20:15,483 --> 01:20:16,817
You are timed out on our screen,

1876
01:20:16,901 --> 01:20:18,444
but we do appreciate your comments,

1877
01:20:18,527 --> 01:20:20,071
so don't feel like that was a slight,

1878
01:20:20,154 --> 01:20:21,822
that was me.

1879
01:20:21,906 --> 01:20:24,992
Okay, so we're gonna start with 2021 Bowman Heritage.

1880
01:20:25,076 --> 01:20:27,953
Um, I'm gonna do 12 packs, and Matt's gonna do 12 packs.

1881
01:20:28,037 --> 01:20:29,246
- Nice. - And then we're gonna

1882
01:20:29,330 --> 01:20:31,248
do some trivia, some giveaways.

1883
01:20:31,332 --> 01:20:34,418
The real motivation came from my... my uncle and cousin.

1884
01:20:34,502 --> 01:20:38,506
Uh, they had been doing it for one or two years prior,

1885
01:20:38,589 --> 01:20:42,134
to us. Great Lakes Breaks was kind of, uh,

1886
01:20:42,218 --> 01:20:45,513
born out of just, like, brainstorm between Matt and I.

1887
01:20:45,596 --> 01:20:47,223
I had started doing some, uh,

1888
01:20:47,306 --> 01:20:49,934
YouTube online breaking.

1889
01:20:50,017 --> 01:20:53,604
Opening boxes online, and then, sort of,

1890
01:20:53,688 --> 01:20:55,356
uh, just filming it on YouTube, and trying

1891
01:20:55,439 --> 01:20:57,066
to build an audience there.

1892
01:20:57,149 --> 01:21:00,277
And because Matt and I had collected together

1893
01:21:00,361 --> 01:21:02,446
for so long, we were...

1894
01:21:02,530 --> 01:21:03,364
we're like, well, why don't we just

1895
01:21:03,447 --> 01:21:05,074
do this together? Why don't we try

1896
01:21:05,157 --> 01:21:07,660
to build something that's a little bit more

1897
01:21:07,743 --> 01:21:10,204
than just us collecting.

1898
01:21:10,287 --> 01:21:15,042
And a Luis Medina chrome card.

1899
01:21:15,126 --> 01:21:16,919
We'll see, though.

1900
01:21:17,003 --> 01:21:20,256
Doesn't matter. All right, the next one...

1901
01:21:20,339 --> 01:21:21,841
In the hobby, there are people

1902
01:21:21,924 --> 01:21:24,010
who will regularly break with us.

1903
01:21:24,093 --> 01:21:25,636
Kind of like brand loyalty.

1904
01:21:25,720 --> 01:21:27,930
You do get to know the kind of person

1905
01:21:28,014 --> 01:21:30,975
that you're breaking with,
because there are regulars

1906
01:21:31,058 --> 01:21:33,602
that break with you. And so some of those regulars

1907
01:21:33,686 --> 01:21:35,855
are, like, you know, I'm buying a spot

1908
01:21:35,938 --> 01:21:38,774
just to kind of gamble tonight.
Like, I like baseball cards,

1909
01:21:38,858 --> 01:21:40,234
but I don't need anything particular.

1910
01:21:40,317 --> 01:21:41,986
I'm just trying to hit big. You get those people.

1911
01:21:42,069 --> 01:21:43,696
And so when you do hit big for them,

1912
01:21:43,779 --> 01:21:45,489
it is fun in that regard, too.

1913
01:21:45,573 --> 01:21:47,033
It's like, I hit something nice for you.

1914
01:21:47,116 --> 01:21:48,659
When you've been buying into all this stuff,

1915
01:21:48,743 --> 01:21:50,911
finally you... you struck gold.

1916
01:21:53,414 --> 01:21:55,124
Luke, I mean, he's got a pretty good pre...

1917
01:21:55,207 --> 01:21:56,792
Bigger presence than we do at this point,

1918
01:21:56,876 --> 01:21:58,878
but he had people askin' him for autographs.

1919
01:21:58,961 --> 01:21:59,795
- Yeah. - Like kids come up

1920
01:21:59,879 --> 01:22:01,964
askin' him to sign stuff, like he's a celebrity.

1921
01:22:02,048 --> 01:22:03,132
- Yeah, exactly! - Which is wild.

1922
01:22:03,215 --> 01:22:05,176
Like, that's super cool to see for him.

1923
01:22:05,259 --> 01:22:07,219
It's just a fun way for us to do something together.

1924
01:22:07,303 --> 01:22:09,555
Open up cards we would
anyway, but share it with people,

1925
01:22:09,638 --> 01:22:11,599
and try to maybe help. We've done this for a while,

1926
01:22:11,682 --> 01:22:13,601
so maybe help guide people into buying something

1927
01:22:13,684 --> 01:22:15,227
that would be a little bit better value for 'em,

1928
01:22:15,311 --> 01:22:17,396
or... that's kind of what we've geared ourselves more to,

1929
01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:19,231
especially as a ton of new people got into it

1930
01:22:19,315 --> 01:22:21,484
during COVID. Like, hey, you probably shouldn't

1931
01:22:21,567 --> 01:22:24,320
buy these boxes at $60, but these ones at $30

1932
01:22:24,403 --> 01:22:27,073
are a lot better product. Try to provide some of that

1933
01:22:27,156 --> 01:22:28,991
helpful insight at times, too, I think. It's been...

1934
01:22:29,075 --> 01:22:30,034
- Yeah. - It's been kind of fun,

1935
01:22:30,117 --> 01:22:31,494
over the past couple of years.

1936
01:22:31,577 --> 01:22:35,206
[upbeat music]

1937
01:22:42,088 --> 01:22:44,048
So I was a Jordan Love card collector

1938
01:22:44,131 --> 01:22:47,968
before anybody else out here.
I know Jordan Love's probably

1939
01:22:48,052 --> 01:22:50,054
a very hot commodity right now.

1940
01:22:50,137 --> 01:22:54,100
I mean, I had this collection when we first got here.

1941
01:22:54,183 --> 01:22:56,769
And... my rookie year, and didn't have anything.

1942
01:22:56,852 --> 01:22:58,270
Didn't even have furniture in our apartment.

1943
01:22:58,354 --> 01:23:00,481
I was like, hey, sign this for me.

1944
01:23:00,564 --> 01:23:02,400
Uh, 'cause we be signing cards like this,

1945
01:23:02,483 --> 01:23:03,693
where we're both on it.

1946
01:23:03,776 --> 01:23:06,612
Or, what... whatever would send us, uh,

1947
01:23:06,696 --> 01:23:08,489
a bunch of stuff. And we... we'd have these.

1948
01:23:08,572 --> 01:23:10,324
I'm like, I'm signin' this, and I bring it downstairs.

1949
01:23:10,408 --> 01:23:11,909
He signs the other one, I'm like, you know what?

1950
01:23:11,992 --> 01:23:13,703
Like, I'mma collect some of these.

1951
01:23:13,786 --> 01:23:15,371
I'm gonna bring 'em back.

1952
01:23:15,454 --> 01:23:19,083
[upbeat music]

1953
01:23:26,173 --> 01:23:27,925
I even do a scavenger hunt every now and again

1954
01:23:28,009 --> 01:23:29,468
throughout time. I post it on Twitter,

1955
01:23:29,552 --> 01:23:32,763
I'll hide like a bobblehead,
or a jersey, and first person

1956
01:23:32,847 --> 01:23:35,641
to find it, uh, you know, you get to keep it.

1957
01:23:35,725 --> 01:23:37,685
And so sometimes... looked like the last one

1958
01:23:37,768 --> 01:23:40,271
I just did, number 8, I hid it at that shop.

1959
01:23:40,354 --> 01:23:41,731
And I was like, you gotta go in there and ask

1960
01:23:41,814 --> 01:23:43,524
before they close, but I didn't tell people

1961
01:23:43,607 --> 01:23:45,735
where they were. But, obviously, they, uh...

1962
01:23:45,818 --> 01:23:47,403
They found it. Scavenger hunts, man,

1963
01:23:47,486 --> 01:23:49,989
I just been... I had a couple extra jerseys one day.

1964
01:23:50,072 --> 01:23:51,615
I was like, you know, I'm gonna hide this.

1965
01:23:51,699 --> 01:23:54,577
And I posted on Twitter, and, I mean, people find it.

1966
01:23:54,660 --> 01:23:56,704
The longest it's been since
somebody found something

1967
01:23:56,787 --> 01:23:58,831
is, like, seven minutes.

1968
01:23:58,914 --> 01:24:00,750
And I... it's in... it's in Green Bay.

1969
01:24:00,833 --> 01:24:02,209
I've done it up in Dorr County,

1970
01:24:02,293 --> 01:24:05,004
I've done it and hid stuff, and people will...

1971
01:24:05,087 --> 01:24:06,672
They see that, they get that notification,

1972
01:24:06,756 --> 01:24:08,466
they're on the run.

1973
01:24:10,092 --> 01:24:11,969
I don't know, I think there's a lot of different ways

1974
01:24:12,053 --> 01:24:13,846
that I could take this hobby of mine,

1975
01:24:13,929 --> 01:24:16,307
um, whether it's just, you know, keep collectin',

1976
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:19,101
whether I do dabble more into the buying and selling,

1977
01:24:19,185 --> 01:24:20,895
or open up my own card shop.

1978
01:24:23,939 --> 01:24:26,817
That's... honestly, I feel like that's a part that

1979
01:24:26,901 --> 01:24:29,487
makes some... some athletes or some celebrities,

1980
01:24:29,570 --> 01:24:31,614
what have you, kind of shy away

1981
01:24:31,697 --> 01:24:33,991
from the autographs, because you go have

1982
01:24:34,075 --> 01:24:35,910
a parent send up their little kid,

1983
01:24:35,993 --> 01:24:37,703
like, "Oh, you're my favorite player ever!"

1984
01:24:37,787 --> 01:24:39,413
And you go sign it, and then later on

1985
01:24:39,497 --> 01:24:41,916
you see it on eBay for however much money.

1986
01:24:41,999 --> 01:24:43,876
It's like, well, you know,

1987
01:24:43,959 --> 01:24:45,503
everybody's gonna make money off my name,

1988
01:24:45,586 --> 01:24:48,381
it's one of those things where you... you wish everybody

1989
01:24:48,464 --> 01:24:51,050
was so genuine, because for the vast majority of fans,

1990
01:24:51,133 --> 01:24:53,803
they are all just putting it up on their wall,

1991
01:24:53,886 --> 01:24:55,721
and keepin' it, and they're gonna show everybody

1992
01:24:55,805 --> 01:24:58,432
when they go home. And so, that's just like anything.

1993
01:24:58,516 --> 01:24:59,642
It's-it's tough, though.

1994
01:24:59,725 --> 01:25:03,854
And I... I don't fault the people who kind of

1995
01:25:03,938 --> 01:25:05,731
shy away from it, 'cause I do see...

1996
01:25:05,815 --> 01:25:07,733
I do see both sides, but,

1997
01:25:07,817 --> 01:25:09,985
I'm also a collector too, so I want those autographs

1998
01:25:10,069 --> 01:25:12,029
on my cards. - A lot of athletes

1999
01:25:12,113 --> 01:25:14,281
where their signatures are very hard to come by,

2000
01:25:14,365 --> 01:25:15,700
either because they're not signing,

2001
01:25:15,783 --> 01:25:18,285
or because their signatures are super expensive.

2002
01:25:18,369 --> 01:25:19,745
Athletes off the top of my head I can think of

2003
01:25:19,829 --> 01:25:21,789
is, uh, Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan.

2004
01:25:21,872 --> 01:25:23,499
That's because they're... they're so expensive.

2005
01:25:23,582 --> 01:25:26,752
Plus, I believe Michael Jordan
has an exclusive agreement

2006
01:25:26,836 --> 01:25:28,629
just with Upper Deck to sign,

2007
01:25:28,713 --> 01:25:30,464
so he's not goin' out to the shows,

2008
01:25:30,548 --> 01:25:32,925
or doing anything like that. He's only doing events

2009
01:25:33,009 --> 01:25:34,760
through Upper Deck, where he can probably get...

2010
01:25:34,844 --> 01:25:36,721
Charge a butt load of money to get...

2011
01:25:36,804 --> 01:25:38,431
Same thing with Tiger Woods, I believe.

2012
01:25:38,514 --> 01:25:41,600
I think Jordan Spieth, also, one that's hard to get.

2013
01:25:41,684 --> 01:25:44,145
Ric Flair is another one that's very, very difficult

2014
01:25:44,228 --> 01:25:46,355
to get as well. - I've had so many run-ins

2015
01:25:46,439 --> 01:25:49,316
with so many... positive players,
and so many negative players.

2016
01:25:49,400 --> 01:25:52,570
Aaron Rogers, being one on the negative side.

2017
01:25:52,653 --> 01:25:54,989
On the flip side, someone like Payton Manning,

2018
01:25:55,072 --> 01:25:57,491
kind of took the autograph industry

2019
01:25:57,575 --> 01:26:00,036
as... as part of his job. He would show up

2020
01:26:00,119 --> 01:26:02,872
outside the stadium, with his own sharpie in hand,

2021
01:26:02,955 --> 01:26:05,291
and made sure everyone got an autograph.

2022
01:26:05,374 --> 01:26:07,710
Didn't care what it was for, what you do with it,

2023
01:26:07,793 --> 01:26:09,170
whether you were sellin' it.

2024
01:26:09,253 --> 01:26:11,005
Just kinda came with the territory.

2025
01:26:11,088 --> 01:26:12,965
So what I think makes a good autograph,

2026
01:26:13,049 --> 01:26:15,384
is I think it comes down to legibility.

2027
01:26:15,468 --> 01:26:17,928
I wanna be able to, after I get the signature,

2028
01:26:18,012 --> 01:26:21,307
and I put the ball up or something in my display,

2029
01:26:21,390 --> 01:26:24,101
I wanna be able to read who the person actually is,

2030
01:26:24,185 --> 01:26:26,270
instead of just some scribble marks there.

2031
01:26:26,354 --> 01:26:28,689
And where years down the line,

2032
01:26:28,773 --> 01:26:30,816
you say, "Well, who signed this?"

2033
01:26:32,568 --> 01:26:34,612
It seems to be the older generation

2034
01:26:34,695 --> 01:26:37,281
really took the time to be able to sign an autograph.

2035
01:26:37,365 --> 01:26:38,908
Al Kaline, Mickey Lolich,

2036
01:26:38,991 --> 01:26:40,618
you can tell I collect a lot of Tigers.

2037
01:26:40,701 --> 01:26:41,702
They have really good autographs,

2038
01:26:41,786 --> 01:26:42,953
usually the older players.

2039
01:26:43,037 --> 01:26:44,872
Now you get into the newer players,

2040
01:26:44,955 --> 01:26:47,291
a lot of their autographs are very rushed.

2041
01:26:47,375 --> 01:26:48,918
And a lot of the reason why it's rushed,

2042
01:26:49,001 --> 01:26:50,795
because there's 50 people around them,

2043
01:26:50,878 --> 01:26:52,254
they're trying to sign as fast as they can.

2044
01:26:52,338 --> 01:26:55,132
But Mike Trout, yeah, you can't even tell

2045
01:26:55,216 --> 01:26:56,926
what the heck that is. Xavier Tillman,

2046
01:26:57,009 --> 01:26:58,719
I think he just signs an X.

2047
01:26:58,803 --> 01:27:02,014
I can see how... how players could get

2048
01:27:02,098 --> 01:27:04,725
annoyed, you know, a lot of graphers,

2049
01:27:04,809 --> 01:27:06,519
a lot of cruises, as they call 'em,

2050
01:27:06,602 --> 01:27:08,688
from each town can be overwhelming.

2051
01:27:08,771 --> 01:27:11,023
Chasin' players in locations they shouldn't

2052
01:27:11,107 --> 01:27:12,983
be bothered. While they're eating,

2053
01:27:13,067 --> 01:27:14,985
restaurants. But there's certain times

2054
01:27:15,069 --> 01:27:17,613
where, as a player, you should be open to it.

2055
01:27:17,697 --> 01:27:19,323
At the stadium is one of 'em.

2056
01:27:19,407 --> 01:27:22,284
In my mind, that's... that's part of your duty.

2057
01:27:22,368 --> 01:27:23,994
Robert Fick, though, I think has been...

2058
01:27:24,078 --> 01:27:26,038
He's been, like, the biggest pain in the butt

2059
01:27:26,122 --> 01:27:27,957
when it comes to signatures.

2060
01:27:28,040 --> 01:27:30,626
Most-known, notably, uh... was known for hitting

2061
01:27:30,710 --> 01:27:32,545
the last home run at Tiger Stadium.

2062
01:27:32,628 --> 01:27:34,463
He hit a grand slam against the Royals.

2063
01:27:34,547 --> 01:27:36,007
Hit it off the roof there in the bottom

2064
01:27:36,090 --> 01:27:37,633
of the eighth inning.

2065
01:27:37,717 --> 01:27:39,010
I was gonna have him sign, uh,

2066
01:27:39,093 --> 01:27:42,304
my 1999 Final Game at Tiger Stadium score book.

2067
01:27:42,388 --> 01:27:44,265
I've been accumulating signatures on the front

2068
01:27:44,348 --> 01:27:45,725
from various players that were a part

2069
01:27:45,808 --> 01:27:48,644
of that '99 team. And I get to the front,

2070
01:27:48,728 --> 01:27:50,688
and it's-it's... it's his turn.

2071
01:27:50,771 --> 01:27:52,440
You know, my turn to get my signature,

2072
01:27:52,523 --> 01:27:54,692
and I slide by book up there. I was like, "Oh this is great."

2073
01:27:54,775 --> 01:27:56,318
"Thank you so much." And he's like,

2074
01:27:56,402 --> 01:27:58,154
"Silver sharpie work?" I was like,

2075
01:27:58,237 --> 01:27:59,655
"Yeah, sounds great. It'll really look great

2076
01:27:59,739 --> 01:28:03,617
"on the program there." So he starts to sign,

2077
01:28:03,701 --> 01:28:05,870
and the ink dies on the pen.

2078
01:28:05,953 --> 01:28:09,165
And so he's like, shakin' it, tryin'.

2079
01:28:09,248 --> 01:28:11,584
And he basically just is like,

2080
01:28:11,667 --> 01:28:12,918
"Ah, well, that's it!"

2081
01:28:13,002 --> 01:28:15,504
and slides the book back to me. I'm like...

2082
01:28:15,588 --> 01:28:17,381
so I get, like, a faded half-an-autograph,

2083
01:28:17,465 --> 01:28:18,466
and that's what... that's what I get

2084
01:28:18,549 --> 01:28:19,925
from this guy?!

2085
01:28:20,009 --> 01:28:22,511
And that was my encounter with Robert Fick.

2086
01:28:22,595 --> 01:28:23,888
[laughing]

2087
01:28:29,477 --> 01:28:31,020
The spring of 2012.

2088
01:28:31,103 --> 01:28:33,689
One of my consignment directors, Peter Calderon,

2089
01:28:33,773 --> 01:28:36,650
received a call from a gentleman in Ohio

2090
01:28:36,734 --> 01:28:38,986
that was pretty cryptic to begin with.

2091
01:28:39,070 --> 01:28:40,696
He didn't tell him a lot of information,

2092
01:28:40,780 --> 01:28:43,240
but he said he's come across some... what he believes

2093
01:28:43,324 --> 01:28:47,161
are original and authentic baseball cards from the...

2094
01:28:47,244 --> 01:28:48,704
Early 1900s.

2095
01:28:48,788 --> 01:28:51,082
Somebody asked me why we picked Heritage.

2096
01:28:52,458 --> 01:28:54,960
The simplest answer is 'cause
they answered the phone.

2097
01:28:55,044 --> 01:28:57,254
The other two auction houses went to voicemail.

2098
01:28:57,338 --> 01:28:59,423
Pete asked for some images, and, uh,

2099
01:28:59,507 --> 01:29:02,593
some images were emailed over to him, and...

2100
01:29:02,677 --> 01:29:04,512
I remember Pete calling me into his office

2101
01:29:04,595 --> 01:29:06,138
to have a look at 'em.

2102
01:29:06,222 --> 01:29:08,599
And we were both pretty astonished

2103
01:29:08,683 --> 01:29:11,268
at the quality and the condition

2104
01:29:11,352 --> 01:29:12,645
of the cards.

2105
01:29:12,728 --> 01:29:14,730
And we were trying to
determine if they were counterfeit.

2106
01:29:14,814 --> 01:29:17,942
Because we get a lot of inquiries on a daily basis.

2107
01:29:18,025 --> 01:29:19,068
How do we verify 'em?

2108
01:29:19,151 --> 01:29:22,279
So Pete tells us, "Look, I can't verify from a photograph"

2109
01:29:22,363 --> 01:29:24,740
"on a phone. We need to see 'em."

2110
01:29:24,824 --> 01:29:26,283
So we agree...

2111
01:29:26,367 --> 01:29:29,995
to box some cards up, and send 'em to Heritage.

2112
01:29:30,079 --> 01:29:32,331
At that point, we had to assign a name to it,

2113
01:29:32,415 --> 01:29:34,750
so we assigned here's who we are,

2114
01:29:34,834 --> 01:29:37,378
here's where we're at, and that's all we told him.

2115
01:29:37,461 --> 01:29:38,713
And then the gentleman on the other line said,

2116
01:29:38,796 --> 01:29:42,049
"Well, I have a few, let me send you some examples."

2117
01:29:42,133 --> 01:29:43,676
"I'm gonna overnight 'em."

2118
01:29:43,759 --> 01:29:47,555
"Uh, and so, uh, they're gonna go out on Friday"

2119
01:29:47,638 --> 01:29:48,764
"for delivery on Saturday."

2120
01:29:48,848 --> 01:29:50,808
We insure it. [chuckling]

2121
01:29:50,891 --> 01:29:51,976
We weren't sure what it was worth,

2122
01:29:52,059 --> 01:29:53,144
but we insure it, you know?

2123
01:29:53,227 --> 01:29:55,271
We had a, uh... we had a Ty Cobb in there.

2124
01:29:55,354 --> 01:29:57,606
We had a couple of Honus Wagners in there.

2125
01:29:57,690 --> 01:29:59,859
"When you get the box, please call me

2126
01:29:59,942 --> 01:30:01,527
"before you open it up."

2127
01:30:01,610 --> 01:30:05,072
So Pete and I were both here, on that Saturday.

2128
01:30:05,156 --> 01:30:08,284
Uh, the FedEx box comes in. I go into Pete's office,

2129
01:30:08,367 --> 01:30:11,120
where we call... call back,

2130
01:30:11,203 --> 01:30:12,997
and we have him on speaker phone.

2131
01:30:13,080 --> 01:30:15,041
As we open the box... Pete opened the box,

2132
01:30:15,124 --> 01:30:17,001
and we looked at the cards.

2133
01:30:17,084 --> 01:30:18,377
There were eight cards in it.

2134
01:30:18,461 --> 01:30:20,212
And we just looked at each other,

2135
01:30:20,296 --> 01:30:21,088
and we said...

2136
01:30:21,172 --> 01:30:22,965
Oh, fuck!

2137
01:30:23,049 --> 01:30:26,344
These are real.

2138
01:30:26,427 --> 01:30:29,013
We're on the other end of the phone.

2139
01:30:29,096 --> 01:30:30,306
We hear this.

2140
01:30:30,389 --> 01:30:31,724
We know.

2141
01:30:31,807 --> 01:30:33,517
At that point, we know.

2142
01:30:33,601 --> 01:30:37,021
We started talking to Karl about the condition

2143
01:30:37,104 --> 01:30:38,773
of the cards, and the value of the cards.

2144
01:30:38,856 --> 01:30:40,900
It would have been a significant find

2145
01:30:40,983 --> 01:30:43,652
if those were the only eight
cards that he came across.

2146
01:30:43,736 --> 01:30:46,197
And Karl kind of laughed, and he said,

2147
01:30:46,280 --> 01:30:48,449
"I've got a lot more where that came from."

2148
01:30:48,532 --> 01:30:50,159
[laughing]

2149
01:30:50,242 --> 01:30:51,660
Now, there's that moment of silence

2150
01:30:51,744 --> 01:30:53,746
on a phone that... almost might be

2151
01:30:53,829 --> 01:30:57,500
only two or three seconds, but it's also forever.

2152
01:30:57,583 --> 01:30:59,502
That's that moment of silence

2153
01:30:59,585 --> 01:31:02,630
that we got from Pete and from Chris.

2154
01:31:02,713 --> 01:31:04,840
- Our jaws hit the ground. - So now there's an element

2155
01:31:04,924 --> 01:31:08,594
of... excitement, and an element of fear.

2156
01:31:09,887 --> 01:31:11,222
What do I do?

2157
01:31:11,305 --> 01:31:14,600
We got on a plane up to Defiance, Ohio

2158
01:31:14,684 --> 01:31:16,769
as quickly as we could.

2159
01:31:16,852 --> 01:31:18,896
[calm music]

2160
01:31:18,979 --> 01:31:21,107
They met here, at the restaurant.

2161
01:31:21,190 --> 01:31:23,067
And we went through the cards.

2162
01:31:28,072 --> 01:31:29,699
We'd never seen anything like this.

2163
01:31:29,782 --> 01:31:31,826
These cards are from 1910.

2164
01:31:31,909 --> 01:31:35,329
They are notoriously in very poor condition,

2165
01:31:35,413 --> 01:31:36,789
because they were made for children.

2166
01:31:36,872 --> 01:31:39,417
They were handed out as promotional pieces

2167
01:31:39,500 --> 01:31:40,918
for different stores.

2168
01:31:41,002 --> 01:31:43,754
They're known as the E98, caramel cards,

2169
01:31:43,838 --> 01:31:45,381
and they're the E98 series,

2170
01:31:45,464 --> 01:31:47,299
and that's their catalogue designation

2171
01:31:47,383 --> 01:31:48,384
for sports collectors.

2172
01:31:48,467 --> 01:31:50,094
They had contracts in hand,

2173
01:31:50,177 --> 01:31:53,347
and we had a very, very long conversation

2174
01:31:53,431 --> 01:31:55,099
about family.

2175
01:31:57,893 --> 01:32:00,521
And that there were 20 people involved in this.

2176
01:32:00,604 --> 01:32:03,983
And the look on Chris Ivy's face was...

2177
01:32:04,066 --> 01:32:05,943
"Oh shit!" again, because anytime you deal

2178
01:32:06,027 --> 01:32:09,030
with 20 people, ehhh... This cannot be good.

2179
01:32:09,113 --> 01:32:11,782
But, understand...

2180
01:32:11,866 --> 01:32:13,576
this is family.

2181
01:32:15,411 --> 01:32:18,205
While he was handling the estate for his family,

2182
01:32:18,289 --> 01:32:20,207
there were 20 other family members.

2183
01:32:20,291 --> 01:32:24,712
Cousins, and siblings that were all part of, uh...

2184
01:32:24,795 --> 01:32:26,088
Of the inheritance.

2185
01:32:26,172 --> 01:32:28,507
All the cards were boxed up.

2186
01:32:28,591 --> 01:32:30,301
Little black case.

2187
01:32:30,384 --> 01:32:32,720
And, I mean, just like you see in the movies,

2188
01:32:32,803 --> 01:32:35,598
handcuff on the wrist. Here's the black case,

2189
01:32:35,681 --> 01:32:37,308
walkin' out the door.

2190
01:32:37,391 --> 01:32:39,352
You know, it doesn't get any better than that,

2191
01:32:39,435 --> 01:32:41,812
I mean, you just... you just feel good.

2192
01:32:42,980 --> 01:32:44,523
They flew 'em back to Texas.

2193
01:32:44,607 --> 01:32:47,443
They brought in PSA to grade them.

2194
01:32:47,526 --> 01:32:48,986
And just to give you an idea,

2195
01:32:49,070 --> 01:32:50,821
at the time, PSA,

2196
01:32:50,905 --> 01:32:52,782
which is Professional Sports Authenticators.

2197
01:32:52,865 --> 01:32:55,034
They're the number one authentication firm

2198
01:32:55,117 --> 01:32:56,869
and grader for sports cards.

2199
01:32:56,952 --> 01:33:00,414
They had graded 600 examples at the time.

2200
01:33:00,498 --> 01:33:03,542
And this find, we came to find out,

2201
01:33:03,626 --> 01:33:07,838
had over 600 cards in it. So just by itself,

2202
01:33:07,922 --> 01:33:11,634
it doubled the entire known population of E98s

2203
01:33:11,717 --> 01:33:12,968
that have ever been graded.

2204
01:33:13,052 --> 01:33:15,096
Not only that, but the condition

2205
01:33:15,179 --> 01:33:18,474
of these cards was perfect.

2206
01:33:18,557 --> 01:33:22,061
I mean, it was just as they were printed in 1910.

2207
01:33:22,144 --> 01:33:24,146
'Cause as I said, most of those 600 examples

2208
01:33:24,230 --> 01:33:26,440
that were graded, I think the highest-graded example

2209
01:33:26,524 --> 01:33:28,567
was a near-mint 7, and most of 'em

2210
01:33:28,651 --> 01:33:31,696
were graded between 2 and 4 on the 10-point scale.

2211
01:33:31,779 --> 01:33:34,865
So just the size of this collection,

2212
01:33:34,949 --> 01:33:38,369
and the quality of these cards was, um,

2213
01:33:38,452 --> 01:33:40,162
was incredible.

2214
01:33:41,747 --> 01:33:44,709
They were getting grades of 9.5,

2215
01:33:44,792 --> 01:33:46,460
8.5,

2216
01:33:46,544 --> 01:33:47,712
10s.

2217
01:33:47,795 --> 01:33:51,549
One Honus Wagner graded a mint gem, 10.

2218
01:33:53,134 --> 01:33:55,886
Again, it's unheard of. These cards are 100 years old.

2219
01:33:55,970 --> 01:33:58,139
And here you are, they're brand new.

2220
01:33:58,222 --> 01:34:02,935
This estate has just went from a bunch of...

2221
01:34:03,019 --> 01:34:05,813
really old stuff, and neat stuff,

2222
01:34:05,896 --> 01:34:09,275
to a multi-million dollar estate.

2223
01:34:14,363 --> 01:34:16,866
So obviously, we have to bring the attorney in on this.

2224
01:34:16,949 --> 01:34:19,076
He has to have a full grasp of it.

2225
01:34:19,160 --> 01:34:21,037
And I have to tell the rest of the family.

2226
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:24,915
So we put together a weekend where

2227
01:34:24,999 --> 01:34:27,293
we are going to go through

2228
01:34:27,376 --> 01:34:29,962
and distribute the contents of the house.

2229
01:34:34,425 --> 01:34:37,970
So here you're dealing with my
grandmother's dining room set

2230
01:34:38,054 --> 01:34:41,640
that's 100 years old. A grandfather clock that's a...

2231
01:34:41,724 --> 01:34:44,352
A 1918 grandfather clock.

2232
01:34:44,435 --> 01:34:48,814
Numerous other Hummels and silver, and china,

2233
01:34:48,898 --> 01:34:52,568
and bedroom sets, and you name it.

2234
01:34:52,651 --> 01:34:54,695
It's 100 years worth of stuff.

2235
01:34:54,779 --> 01:34:56,447
So, who gets 'em?

2236
01:34:56,530 --> 01:34:58,699
So, big family meeting.

2237
01:34:58,783 --> 01:35:02,536
And I invited Heritage to the family meeting.

2238
01:35:02,620 --> 01:35:05,247
Chris and Peter flew up,

2239
01:35:05,331 --> 01:35:07,208
brought a stack of cards with 'em that had been graded,

2240
01:35:07,291 --> 01:35:09,168
and were in their sleeves.

2241
01:35:09,251 --> 01:35:11,754
Brought a poster, that showed all the cards.

2242
01:35:14,048 --> 01:35:17,551
And they waited in another room

2243
01:35:17,635 --> 01:35:19,095
while I started the family meeting.

2244
01:35:19,178 --> 01:35:22,056
Again, the family knew nothing about it.

2245
01:35:22,139 --> 01:35:24,850
[collective chatter]

2246
01:35:26,769 --> 01:35:29,647
And then the great introduction of...

2247
01:35:29,730 --> 01:35:32,650
Mr. Chris Ivy,

2248
01:35:32,733 --> 01:35:34,568
and Mr. Peter Calderon,

2249
01:35:34,652 --> 01:35:38,155
who are here to explain something to you

2250
01:35:38,239 --> 01:35:40,032
that was found in the house.

2251
01:35:42,410 --> 01:35:43,994
That's always a difficult situation,

2252
01:35:44,078 --> 01:35:46,247
because we were going up and going to explain

2253
01:35:46,330 --> 01:35:48,624
what we were going to do as an auction company,

2254
01:35:48,708 --> 01:35:51,877
and how we were gonna help
them to maximize their return,

2255
01:35:51,961 --> 01:35:53,879
make sure we get mainstream publicity

2256
01:35:53,963 --> 01:35:57,383
for this significant find, and ultimately get them

2257
01:35:57,466 --> 01:35:58,926
the most money in their pocket.

2258
01:35:59,010 --> 01:36:00,970
And they started to explain to the family

2259
01:36:01,053 --> 01:36:02,638
what was found in that attic,

2260
01:36:02,722 --> 01:36:05,266
and then I came back in to explain to them

2261
01:36:05,349 --> 01:36:07,309
how it was found in the process

2262
01:36:07,393 --> 01:36:10,813
of getting them to Heritage,

2263
01:36:10,896 --> 01:36:12,189
and getting them graded,

2264
01:36:12,273 --> 01:36:15,234
and the estimated value being $2.8 million.

2265
01:36:15,317 --> 01:36:16,861
Which, needless to say,

2266
01:36:16,944 --> 01:36:20,322
the closed audience of my family...

2267
01:36:20,406 --> 01:36:21,824
was kinda holding their breath, going...

2268
01:36:21,907 --> 01:36:23,200
[sharply inhales]

2269
01:36:23,284 --> 01:36:26,412
And a few verbs in there, you know, little,

2270
01:36:26,495 --> 01:36:30,374
"Oh shit! Can't be!" You know?

2271
01:36:30,458 --> 01:36:32,376
My brother Bill, I had told him when

2272
01:36:32,460 --> 01:36:34,628
we were first planning the cleanouts,

2273
01:36:34,712 --> 01:36:37,423
that I viewed it as a treasure hunt.

2274
01:36:37,506 --> 01:36:40,051
And his only comment was, "Ya son of a bitch",

2275
01:36:40,134 --> 01:36:42,720
"ya did find treasure!" You know, I mean?

2276
01:36:42,803 --> 01:36:47,433
[upbeat music]

2277
01:37:07,912 --> 01:37:11,248
- And what they ended up doing,
since there were so many cards,

2278
01:37:11,332 --> 01:37:13,626
and so many, um, family members,

2279
01:37:13,709 --> 01:37:17,588
is we split up the cards evenly

2280
01:37:17,672 --> 01:37:19,423
into different sets

2281
01:37:19,507 --> 01:37:21,384
for each member of the family.

2282
01:37:21,467 --> 01:37:25,346
And the family could either decide to consign

2283
01:37:25,429 --> 01:37:28,849
their share of the cards into a consortium,

2284
01:37:28,933 --> 01:37:31,102
where they would sell them all together,

2285
01:37:31,185 --> 01:37:33,854
over time, and split the money evenly,

2286
01:37:33,938 --> 01:37:37,733
or they could keep one of the sets for themselves.

2287
01:37:37,817 --> 01:37:42,071
Heritage worked with us as a family.

2288
01:37:42,154 --> 01:37:44,615
Couple of the family members decided to keep theirs,

2289
01:37:44,699 --> 01:37:46,826
but a lion's share decided that they wanted

2290
01:37:46,909 --> 01:37:49,620
to join the consortium, and maximize their value

2291
01:37:49,704 --> 01:37:50,830
at auction.

2292
01:37:50,913 --> 01:37:52,331
Our annual Platinum Night Auction

2293
01:37:52,415 --> 01:37:54,125
is the most anticipated event of the year

2294
01:37:54,208 --> 01:37:56,085
within the sports collectibles community.

2295
01:37:56,168 --> 01:37:59,005
We scheduled to sell at our summer Platinum Night

2296
01:37:59,088 --> 01:38:02,883
sports auction in August of 2012, in conjunction

2297
01:38:02,967 --> 01:38:04,760
with the National Sports Collectors Convention,

2298
01:38:04,844 --> 01:38:06,804
which I believe was in Baltimore that year.

2299
01:38:08,973 --> 01:38:11,976
We ended up moving to Texas because

2300
01:38:12,059 --> 01:38:14,103
Cliff was trying to get his foot back in the door

2301
01:38:14,186 --> 01:38:16,397
as far as professional baseball.

2302
01:38:16,480 --> 01:38:20,109
And there was a workout down there that he was

2303
01:38:20,192 --> 01:38:23,195
invited to that he was trying out for,

2304
01:38:23,279 --> 01:38:27,199
to see if he could continue in his baseball career.

2305
01:38:27,283 --> 01:38:30,036
Then they offered me a position with them,

2306
01:38:30,119 --> 01:38:33,831
letting me know that it was a financially lucrative

2307
01:38:33,914 --> 01:38:36,167
business they had going, and I didn't ask

2308
01:38:36,250 --> 01:38:39,337
a lot of questions at that point. I should've.

2309
01:38:39,420 --> 01:38:41,380
I-I decided to go with them

2310
01:38:41,464 --> 01:38:45,426
based on a lack of other opportunity here.

2311
01:38:45,509 --> 01:38:48,721
And it was...

2312
01:38:48,804 --> 01:38:50,514
go-time at that point.

2313
01:38:50,598 --> 01:38:53,726
I began selling hundreds of items

2314
01:38:53,809 --> 01:38:56,520
on a daily basis, if not thousands.

2315
01:38:56,604 --> 01:38:59,815
We-we had eBay accounts set up,

2316
01:38:59,899 --> 01:39:01,650
we had PayPal accounts set up,

2317
01:39:01,734 --> 01:39:03,361
we had burner phones,

2318
01:39:03,444 --> 01:39:06,739
we had email addresses.

2319
01:39:06,822 --> 01:39:10,493
We had third party listing websites.

2320
01:39:10,576 --> 01:39:12,620
So for every account we had,

2321
01:39:12,703 --> 01:39:15,748
we had to have all of those things.

2322
01:39:15,831 --> 01:39:19,669
For an imaginary person that we would just create up

2323
01:39:19,752 --> 01:39:23,547
and name. We would find an address,

2324
01:39:23,631 --> 01:39:25,800
and we would create an account.

2325
01:39:25,883 --> 01:39:27,468
I would... I would go to the store.

2326
01:39:27,551 --> 01:39:30,471
I would get the items, I would bring them to Cliff,

2327
01:39:30,554 --> 01:39:33,182
he would sign them. I would take the items back.

2328
01:39:33,265 --> 01:39:36,394
I would photo them, list them, sell them,

2329
01:39:36,477 --> 01:39:40,648
ship them, transfer the money into a bank account.

2330
01:39:40,731 --> 01:39:43,734
And then Cliff would receive 40%,

2331
01:39:43,818 --> 01:39:45,820
and I would keep 60%.

2332
01:39:45,903 --> 01:39:49,740
Now, Cliff did everything I said as well,

2333
01:39:49,824 --> 01:39:51,158
for his own accounts.

2334
01:39:51,242 --> 01:39:54,537
So he was getting items for us himself,

2335
01:39:54,620 --> 01:39:57,415
and you know, obviously, keepin' 100% of what

2336
01:39:57,498 --> 01:39:59,333
he had going on.

2337
01:39:59,417 --> 01:40:02,670
We had to have our customer service skills on point.

2338
01:40:02,753 --> 01:40:04,171
We had to talk to people.

2339
01:40:04,255 --> 01:40:07,717
We had to change addresses if they wanted something

2340
01:40:07,800 --> 01:40:09,093
shipped somewhere else.

2341
01:40:09,176 --> 01:40:11,345
We had to be in constant communication

2342
01:40:11,429 --> 01:40:14,181
with the people that were buying these items.

2343
01:40:14,265 --> 01:40:17,184
We had to ship the items in a timely manner.

2344
01:40:17,268 --> 01:40:20,396
We had to package the items

2345
01:40:20,479 --> 01:40:23,399
so that they would not get damaged.

2346
01:40:23,482 --> 01:40:26,569
We had to make sure that the certificate

2347
01:40:26,652 --> 01:40:30,823
of authenticities were... were there with the items.

2348
01:40:30,906 --> 01:40:33,159
It wasn't as if we were sittin' back

2349
01:40:33,242 --> 01:40:36,203
collecting a paycheck. We had quite a bit of work

2350
01:40:36,287 --> 01:40:39,040
that we had to do to make this thing work.

2351
01:40:42,251 --> 01:40:45,338
So, I took him into our briefing room,

2352
01:40:45,421 --> 01:40:49,133
and there we had a bunch of pictures already lined up,

2353
01:40:49,216 --> 01:40:51,052
with the guys that we've identified,

2354
01:40:51,135 --> 01:40:53,846
some of the guys that we didn't identify.

2355
01:40:53,929 --> 01:40:58,517
And we had it... um, taped up on a board,

2356
01:40:58,601 --> 01:41:02,480
and the picture of Cliff Panezich we had...

2357
01:41:02,563 --> 01:41:03,856
kind of down at the bottom,

2358
01:41:03,939 --> 01:41:06,734
just because we didn't have him identified yet.

2359
01:41:06,817 --> 01:41:08,444
So we explained. I said, okay,

2360
01:41:08,527 --> 01:41:10,946
we have on this date these... this individual

2361
01:41:11,030 --> 01:41:12,490
buying baseballs. On this date,

2362
01:41:12,573 --> 01:41:15,743
this individual's buyin' a basketful of footballs.

2363
01:41:15,826 --> 01:41:18,079
On this date, we know that, you know, this credit card

2364
01:41:18,162 --> 01:41:21,749
was used to purchase a gift card.

2365
01:41:21,832 --> 01:41:24,085
He really was impressed with the job

2366
01:41:24,168 --> 01:41:28,422
that we had done already, and he said, "Okay."

2367
01:41:28,506 --> 01:41:30,758
He said, "Well, let me give you my spin on it."

2368
01:41:30,841 --> 01:41:33,427
He goes, "Does the name Cliff Panezich ring a bell"

2369
01:41:33,511 --> 01:41:35,680
"to you?" And I said...

2370
01:41:35,763 --> 01:41:37,139
"Never heard of the guy."

2371
01:41:37,223 --> 01:41:39,350
And he indicated to us that he had information

2372
01:41:39,433 --> 01:41:43,020
that Cliff was selling sport memorabilia,

2373
01:41:43,104 --> 01:41:45,231
and that the items might be forged.

2374
01:41:45,314 --> 01:41:47,692
And so from there, the-the investigation

2375
01:41:47,775 --> 01:41:49,485
really took off.

2376
01:41:49,568 --> 01:41:51,112
So we immediately took his picture

2377
01:41:51,195 --> 01:41:53,614
from the bottom, and taped it all the way

2378
01:41:53,698 --> 01:41:56,701
up to the top of the flowchart, if you will.

2379
01:41:56,784 --> 01:42:01,288
He was the key guy that Tony had information on.

2380
01:42:01,372 --> 01:42:04,959
Cliff would attend these
underground-type card games

2381
01:42:05,042 --> 01:42:07,628
throughout the area, the Youngstown area.

2382
01:42:07,712 --> 01:42:10,715
Well, apparently he lost...

2383
01:42:10,798 --> 01:42:12,842
a substantial amount of money at a card game,

2384
01:42:12,925 --> 01:42:15,136
and he stood up and said, well, I need to go home

2385
01:42:15,219 --> 01:42:16,971
and start makin' some signatures,

2386
01:42:17,054 --> 01:42:20,391
and I need to make my money back.

2387
01:42:20,474 --> 01:42:24,228
So through the card games, he was givin' people $50,

2388
01:42:24,311 --> 01:42:27,314
$100, and people that he was meeting

2389
01:42:27,398 --> 01:42:29,066
to use their name,

2390
01:42:29,150 --> 01:42:31,402
so he could open up an eBay account.

2391
01:42:31,485 --> 01:42:33,738
So Tony was getting information from these

2392
01:42:33,821 --> 01:42:36,824
underground card games that this guy by the name

2393
01:42:36,907 --> 01:42:41,287
of Cliff was... using different names

2394
01:42:41,370 --> 01:42:44,999
to open up eBay accounts,

2395
01:42:45,082 --> 01:42:48,669
and he was also involved in doing potentially

2396
01:42:48,753 --> 01:42:52,006
fake sports memorabilia signatures.

2397
01:42:52,089 --> 01:42:54,008
And so from there, we followed the eBay account

2398
01:42:54,091 --> 01:42:56,677
to the PayPal account, and again, it was different

2399
01:42:56,761 --> 01:42:59,347
individuals who were getting the money

2400
01:42:59,430 --> 01:43:01,390
sent to their PayPal accounts.

2401
01:43:01,474 --> 01:43:03,225
But then from there, it was all going to Cliff.

2402
01:43:03,309 --> 01:43:04,602
From what I could tell,

2403
01:43:04,685 --> 01:43:07,063
they liked to go to high-end restaurants,

2404
01:43:07,146 --> 01:43:10,024
blow $300, $400, $500 on meals.

2405
01:43:10,107 --> 01:43:12,777
They liked to gamble, high... high-stakes.

2406
01:43:12,860 --> 01:43:15,196
Go to these casinos in limousines.

2407
01:43:15,279 --> 01:43:17,239
They liked living the professional

2408
01:43:17,323 --> 01:43:20,868
athlete-type lifestyle, and they found a way

2409
01:43:20,951 --> 01:43:23,996
to do it without being a professional athlete.

2410
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:26,374
I was at constant odds with myself.

2411
01:43:26,457 --> 01:43:30,336
It was an addiction to a... to a certain extent as well.

2412
01:43:30,419 --> 01:43:32,880
It was... it was easy money.

2413
01:43:32,963 --> 01:43:34,340
I could be broke on Monday

2414
01:43:34,423 --> 01:43:37,134
and have thousands of dollars by Wednesday.

2415
01:43:37,218 --> 01:43:40,471
There came a point in time when CJ and Cliff

2416
01:43:40,554 --> 01:43:43,766
had a falling out. All the details of it,

2417
01:43:43,849 --> 01:43:47,144
uh, I know that there was an argument one night.

2418
01:43:47,228 --> 01:43:50,690
And CJ ended up moving back to Ohio.

2419
01:43:50,773 --> 01:43:53,192
I remained in Texas with Cliff.

2420
01:43:53,275 --> 01:43:57,363
We left February 28th, 2012,

2421
01:43:57,446 --> 01:43:58,364
I believe,

2422
01:43:58,447 --> 01:44:01,242
and we were down there for about four months.

2423
01:44:01,325 --> 01:44:03,244
And then after Cliff's tenure

2424
01:44:03,327 --> 01:44:05,037
with a few different baseball teams,

2425
01:44:05,121 --> 01:44:07,415
we ended up moving back, and, you know,

2426
01:44:07,498 --> 01:44:09,291
and became roommates.

2427
01:44:10,668 --> 01:44:13,629
The operations were going just as strong

2428
01:44:13,713 --> 01:44:15,297
as they were in Texas.

2429
01:44:15,381 --> 01:44:18,175
We would hit the local Wal-Mart, Dicks,

2430
01:44:18,259 --> 01:44:21,053
Sports Authority, whatever sporting goods stores,

2431
01:44:21,137 --> 01:44:24,056
and we would clean the shelves,
buy every baseball, basketball,

2432
01:44:24,140 --> 01:44:26,892
football, tennis ball. It didn't matter,

2433
01:44:26,976 --> 01:44:29,937
we would go to Home Depot and Lowe's

2434
01:44:30,021 --> 01:44:33,816
and buy wooden floor boards
and put basketball players

2435
01:44:33,899 --> 01:44:37,945
as if they were tiles off the court.

2436
01:44:38,029 --> 01:44:41,282
Pylons for end zones. We sold anything

2437
01:44:41,365 --> 01:44:44,785
and everything. It got kinda crazy.

2438
01:44:44,869 --> 01:44:47,496
I don't want... it got... it got really crazy.

2439
01:44:47,580 --> 01:44:52,084
[music fades]

2440
01:44:52,168 --> 01:44:55,046
And I ended up meeting...

2441
01:44:55,129 --> 01:44:59,050
a girl, and her and I moved in together.

2442
01:44:59,133 --> 01:45:02,053
Cliff and I had a little falling out at that point,

2443
01:45:02,136 --> 01:45:05,806
mainly because it's yet another person involved.

2444
01:45:05,890 --> 01:45:08,559
Cliff, Cliff knew it was getting too vague.

2445
01:45:08,642 --> 01:45:10,519
He knew it was getting

2446
01:45:10,603 --> 01:45:12,813
outrageous in size.

2447
01:45:12,897 --> 01:45:16,233
Obviously, this is something that I'm not gonna keep

2448
01:45:16,317 --> 01:45:19,737
from a person I'm dating, or seeing.

2449
01:45:19,820 --> 01:45:22,823
And so, yeah, she knew what I was involved in.

2450
01:45:22,907 --> 01:45:26,535
She, uh, she started helping
me with certain aspects of it.

2451
01:45:26,619 --> 01:45:28,245
She would do some of my shipping,

2452
01:45:28,329 --> 01:45:32,333
and when I moved in with her, I had a certain amount

2453
01:45:32,416 --> 01:45:35,461
of items from Cliff, and he said, "Hey",

2454
01:45:35,544 --> 01:45:37,004
"don't worry about giving me a cut"

2455
01:45:37,088 --> 01:45:41,425
"on those items. We're just done."

2456
01:45:41,509 --> 01:45:44,428
"Whatever you get from those, you can keep."

2457
01:45:44,512 --> 01:45:47,098
"But we're just gonna cut this off here."

2458
01:45:47,181 --> 01:45:49,141
"I don't want it getting any bigger."

2459
01:45:49,225 --> 01:45:51,852
[pensive music]

2460
01:45:56,315 --> 01:45:58,526
Catch, catch!

2461
01:45:58,609 --> 01:46:00,319
Good, yeah!

2462
01:46:00,403 --> 01:46:02,405
[indistinct]

2463
01:46:02,488 --> 01:46:04,865
Moving to Nevada all came about because

2464
01:46:04,949 --> 01:46:07,785
Cliff, while he was out in New Mexico,

2465
01:46:07,868 --> 01:46:10,079
playing baseball in the Pecos League,

2466
01:46:10,162 --> 01:46:12,707
he came out to Las Vegas with a friend of his

2467
01:46:12,790 --> 01:46:15,876
to attend a wedding. And he fell in love with Vegas.

2468
01:46:15,960 --> 01:46:17,294
He had never been here before that,

2469
01:46:17,378 --> 01:46:21,465
other than as a young adult, probably 12 or 13.

2470
01:46:21,549 --> 01:46:23,926
He had come up, and, um...

2471
01:46:24,010 --> 01:46:27,304
he came home, and asked me

2472
01:46:27,388 --> 01:46:29,932
if we would move out here. And I sa... I was like,

2473
01:46:30,016 --> 01:46:32,309
well, sure, I was willing, but I said, you better ask

2474
01:46:32,393 --> 01:46:34,812
your dad and your grandma, 'cause I thought for sure

2475
01:46:34,895 --> 01:46:36,147
they would say no.

2476
01:46:36,230 --> 01:46:37,690
So then he went across the street

2477
01:46:37,773 --> 01:46:41,152
and asked my 93-year-old mother if...

2478
01:46:41,235 --> 01:46:44,697
He said, "Grandma, how about we move to Las Vegas?"

2479
01:46:44,780 --> 01:46:46,949
And she said, "Sure, when?"

2480
01:46:47,033 --> 01:46:51,537
Ohio is gloomy, dreary, snowy, rainy, cloudy,

2481
01:46:51,620 --> 01:46:55,082
all the bad stuff. And Henderson and Las Vegas

2482
01:46:55,166 --> 01:46:57,877
is sunny and dry. I'd never go anywhere else.

2483
01:46:57,960 --> 01:46:59,587
And it's all thanks to Cliff,

2484
01:46:59,670 --> 01:47:01,756
him comin' up with the idea.

2485
01:47:01,839 --> 01:47:04,467
[rythmic string music]

2486
01:47:08,179 --> 01:47:09,680
After we identified Cliff,

2487
01:47:09,764 --> 01:47:12,391
we were able to identify different associates,

2488
01:47:12,475 --> 01:47:15,061
and kind of who they were, and
some background information.

2489
01:47:16,854 --> 01:47:20,232
CJ McCormick was someone that was involved early on

2490
01:47:20,316 --> 01:47:23,486
with Cliff, uh, working with Cliff to...

2491
01:47:23,569 --> 01:47:27,156
To get things signed, uh, sending 'em out.

2492
01:47:27,239 --> 01:47:30,076
Uh, CJ eventually...

2493
01:47:30,159 --> 01:47:31,911
thought he could go out on his own.

2494
01:47:31,994 --> 01:47:34,413
And so he kind of broke off from Cliff,

2495
01:47:34,497 --> 01:47:36,207
and started signing his own things,

2496
01:47:36,290 --> 01:47:38,417
and kind of was a one-man show.

2497
01:47:38,501 --> 01:47:41,045
He would do his own signing, his own, uh, marketing,

2498
01:47:41,128 --> 01:47:42,380
if you will. His own packaging,

2499
01:47:42,463 --> 01:47:45,716
and things like that. So he was...

2500
01:47:45,800 --> 01:47:47,176
basically a junior Cliff.

2501
01:47:47,259 --> 01:47:50,805
He-he wasn't quite on the scale of-of Cliff Panezich.

2502
01:47:52,348 --> 01:47:55,685
Jason Lenzi. He was pretty instrumental in getting

2503
01:47:55,768 --> 01:47:58,604
the bank accounts for Cliff. How to get him set up,

2504
01:47:58,688 --> 01:48:02,316
and shut down as too much money
would come into these accounts.

2505
01:48:02,400 --> 01:48:04,026
Okay, it's time to shut that one down

2506
01:48:04,110 --> 01:48:06,153
and open a new one.

2507
01:48:06,237 --> 01:48:08,948
Similar to CJ McCormick,

2508
01:48:09,031 --> 01:48:11,367
who learned from Cliff

2509
01:48:11,450 --> 01:48:14,537
how to do the-the scheme,

2510
01:48:14,620 --> 01:48:18,082
and he, after a while of being under Cliff's wing,

2511
01:48:18,165 --> 01:48:21,836
went off on his own as well, and-and started, uh...

2512
01:48:21,919 --> 01:48:25,423
Forging and doing his own sales.

2513
01:48:25,506 --> 01:48:27,425
He stayed in Nevada with Cliff.

2514
01:48:27,508 --> 01:48:28,968
They became friends up here.

2515
01:48:29,051 --> 01:48:31,595
They... Cliff moved him out there,

2516
01:48:31,679 --> 01:48:35,558
kinda helped him out, and he was the kinda...

2517
01:48:35,641 --> 01:48:38,602
The go-to guy if you will.

2518
01:48:38,686 --> 01:48:40,730
I would say he was like the butler of the house.

2519
01:48:40,813 --> 01:48:44,316
He kinda went to stores, bought the shirts,

2520
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:47,194
the jerseys, and then he would help take pictures,

2521
01:48:47,278 --> 01:48:51,490
set 'em up for eBay, uh, stores, that type of thing.

2522
01:48:51,574 --> 01:48:54,660
He actually moved out to Las Vegas and lived

2523
01:48:54,744 --> 01:48:57,329
with Cliff for a while. That's when he learned

2524
01:48:57,413 --> 01:48:59,915
what Cliff actually was doing.

2525
01:48:59,999 --> 01:49:03,461
And he saw how much money, and how easy it was,

2526
01:49:03,544 --> 01:49:05,755
for these guys to sign a football,

2527
01:49:05,838 --> 01:49:08,507
throw it on a social media site,

2528
01:49:08,591 --> 01:49:11,177
sell it, and they'd make a quick buck at it.

2529
01:49:11,260 --> 01:49:14,638
So after he learned the craft, he actually ended up

2530
01:49:14,722 --> 01:49:18,225
movin' back to Ohio, and where he continued

2531
01:49:18,309 --> 01:49:21,771
to communicate with Cliff on different ways,

2532
01:49:21,854 --> 01:49:26,359
and how the best way is to sign different items.

2533
01:49:26,442 --> 01:49:30,154
James Serenko, he specialized, if you will,

2534
01:49:30,237 --> 01:49:34,116
in movie memorabilia. So he might have a lightsaber,

2535
01:49:34,200 --> 01:49:36,702
you know? He might have a movie poster.

2536
01:49:36,786 --> 01:49:38,496
Something like that, that he would sign,

2537
01:49:38,579 --> 01:49:40,247
and then sell.

2538
01:49:40,331 --> 01:49:43,334
Shawn Pelo, again, met the guy through

2539
01:49:43,417 --> 01:49:44,585
the underground card games

2540
01:49:44,669 --> 01:49:46,462
that these guys were involved in.

2541
01:49:46,545 --> 01:49:49,423
And again, he just kinda tagged along with Cliff,

2542
01:49:49,507 --> 01:49:52,009
and Cliff showed these guys how easy it was.

2543
01:49:53,928 --> 01:49:56,263
He was identified as a bar owner

2544
01:49:56,347 --> 01:49:58,224
in Youngstown, Ohio.

2545
01:49:58,307 --> 01:50:01,435
His name came up through financial reports.

2546
01:50:01,519 --> 01:50:02,978
He came in, he cooperated,

2547
01:50:03,062 --> 01:50:05,981
he gave a statement saying
exactly what had transpired,

2548
01:50:06,065 --> 01:50:08,693
and what he did. He even confessed to his own,

2549
01:50:08,776 --> 01:50:10,236
if you would, theft of money

2550
01:50:10,319 --> 01:50:12,113
that should have rightfully been Cliff's.

2551
01:50:13,823 --> 01:50:16,992
Rose Panezich, we kind of identified her

2552
01:50:17,076 --> 01:50:19,704
through the investigation. She was kind of in charge

2553
01:50:19,787 --> 01:50:22,039
of shipping and receiving, if you will.

2554
01:50:22,123 --> 01:50:25,334
Um, she shipped out a lot of the, uh...

2555
01:50:25,418 --> 01:50:28,170
Well, most of Cliff's signatures

2556
01:50:28,254 --> 01:50:30,673
on the sports memorabilia items.

2557
01:50:30,756 --> 01:50:33,592
We identified that there were bank accounts

2558
01:50:33,676 --> 01:50:35,219
being shared between her and Cliff.

2559
01:50:35,302 --> 01:50:38,264
We had ample witnesses, especially in...

2560
01:50:38,347 --> 01:50:42,059
In that... that residence in Nevada, uh,

2561
01:50:42,143 --> 01:50:44,145
who told us, uh...

2562
01:50:44,228 --> 01:50:46,897
events or stories of... of... there was one time

2563
01:50:46,981 --> 01:50:49,692
in particular where Cliff, he gambled.

2564
01:50:49,775 --> 01:50:51,485
He was a gambler. He had gone out,

2565
01:50:51,569 --> 01:50:52,862
and they would say he'd gone for a, uh,

2566
01:50:52,945 --> 01:50:54,989
two, three-day benders where he would go and gamble

2567
01:50:55,072 --> 01:50:58,242
for 48, 64 straight hours, whatever it was.

2568
01:50:58,325 --> 01:51:00,327
And he had gone out for several days,

2569
01:51:00,411 --> 01:51:03,372
and had lost a boatload of
money gambling at the casinos.

2570
01:51:03,456 --> 01:51:05,708
And he had come back, and he's sleeping,

2571
01:51:05,791 --> 01:51:07,460
trying to recoup from... from the... you know,

2572
01:51:07,543 --> 01:51:09,337
being awake for so long.

2573
01:51:09,420 --> 01:51:12,340
And there's a back order of... backlog of orders

2574
01:51:12,423 --> 01:51:14,550
that had to go out, and this particular witness

2575
01:51:14,633 --> 01:51:17,303
told us that, you know, he saw her go into the room,

2576
01:51:17,386 --> 01:51:19,013
and was yelling at him, "Get up!"

2577
01:51:19,096 --> 01:51:21,140
"We need these things signed! You need to get to work!"

2578
01:51:21,223 --> 01:51:22,308
You know, "You need to do this!"

2579
01:51:22,391 --> 01:51:24,560
And-and so, Cliff would say "Fine," and next thing

2580
01:51:24,643 --> 01:51:26,145
you know, he'd shut the door, and, you know,

2581
01:51:26,228 --> 01:51:27,855
several hours later, he'd come out with

2582
01:51:27,938 --> 01:51:31,150
10, 20, 30, 40, 50 baseballs, whatever.

2583
01:51:31,233 --> 01:51:32,276
They'd be signed, and Rose said,

2584
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:34,362
"Okay, thanks." And then she'd package 'em up.

2585
01:51:34,445 --> 01:51:36,155
She knew damn well he didn't go out

2586
01:51:36,238 --> 01:51:38,532
and get those signatures in that two hours

2587
01:51:38,616 --> 01:51:40,785
he was locked in that... his-his bedroom.

2588
01:51:40,868 --> 01:51:44,246
So we had ample evidence that she was involved,

2589
01:51:44,330 --> 01:51:46,207
that she knew what was going on.

2590
01:51:46,290 --> 01:51:48,209
And I kinda caught on

2591
01:51:48,292 --> 01:51:50,419
that it seemed a little fishy that he had more than

2592
01:51:50,503 --> 01:51:53,339
I thought he was getting, but him and I never actually

2593
01:51:53,422 --> 01:51:54,715
ever talked about it.

2594
01:51:54,799 --> 01:51:56,342
He would get mad at some of these guys,

2595
01:51:56,425 --> 01:51:59,136
because the signatures were so poor.

2596
01:51:59,220 --> 01:52:00,930
He would call or text message 'em

2597
01:52:01,013 --> 01:52:03,766
and say, "Listen, take that baseball bat off."

2598
01:52:03,849 --> 01:52:05,685
"It looks terrible. Why would you even"

2599
01:52:05,768 --> 01:52:06,894
"put something like that on there?"

2600
01:52:06,977 --> 01:52:09,939
"That signature's horrible. Get it off there."

2601
01:52:10,022 --> 01:52:11,649
And they would come back and go,

2602
01:52:11,732 --> 01:52:14,819
"Well, hey, I just made $150 off this bat,"

2603
01:52:14,902 --> 01:52:16,195
"I'm keepin' it on."

2604
01:52:16,278 --> 01:52:18,030
And they would get in arguments like that.

2605
01:52:18,114 --> 01:52:19,949
I guess in the back of my mind, I always

2606
01:52:20,032 --> 01:52:24,078
thought that...

2607
01:52:24,161 --> 01:52:26,288
that he... and-and...

2608
01:52:26,372 --> 01:52:28,457
The law was gonna catch up.

2609
01:52:28,541 --> 01:52:30,167
I know that we did four search warrants

2610
01:52:30,251 --> 01:52:32,628
in Ohio, and two in Nevada.

2611
01:52:32,712 --> 01:52:36,298
I can remember the first time I knew that

2612
01:52:36,382 --> 01:52:37,883
this was coming to an end.

2613
01:52:37,967 --> 01:52:42,096
It was December 1st, 2014.

2614
01:52:42,179 --> 01:52:46,225
It was... it was a really cold day,

2615
01:52:46,308 --> 01:52:49,020
and I could remember just getting home.

2616
01:52:49,103 --> 01:52:52,231
I was getting ready to open my front door,

2617
01:52:52,314 --> 01:52:55,526
and a car pulled in my driveway.

2618
01:52:55,609 --> 01:52:58,529
A car I had never seen before. And, uh,

2619
01:52:58,612 --> 01:53:01,532
they kinda flashed their headlights, as...

2620
01:53:01,615 --> 01:53:03,701
as if to let me know that they were some type

2621
01:53:03,784 --> 01:53:06,203
of law enforcement. It was at that moment

2622
01:53:06,287 --> 01:53:09,040
that I knew everything was gonna come crashing down.

2623
01:53:09,123 --> 01:53:11,375
The first I knew of anything...

2624
01:53:11,459 --> 01:53:14,420
actually any investigation or anything going on

2625
01:53:14,503 --> 01:53:17,131
was when they came storming in my door

2626
01:53:17,214 --> 01:53:19,508
on December 1st of 2014,

2627
01:53:19,592 --> 01:53:21,802
when they had search warrants,

2628
01:53:21,886 --> 01:53:23,512
for our house and Cliff's house.

2629
01:53:23,596 --> 01:53:25,264
He wasn't living with us out here.

2630
01:53:25,348 --> 01:53:28,559
He was renting a house about two miles from us.

2631
01:53:28,642 --> 01:53:32,313
And they came at 8:00 AM, both houses at the same time.

2632
01:53:32,396 --> 01:53:33,773
So we couldn't warn each other.

2633
01:53:33,856 --> 01:53:37,026
And I'd been chasin' this guy for a couple years now,

2634
01:53:37,109 --> 01:53:39,028
and finally, everything was brought down.

2635
01:53:39,111 --> 01:53:41,447
We had successful raids. I guess you could say

2636
01:53:41,530 --> 01:53:43,032
I was kind of on Cloud Nine.

2637
01:53:43,115 --> 01:53:45,451
But the exhaustion just set in.

2638
01:53:45,534 --> 01:53:46,827
When you're not doing anything wrong,

2639
01:53:46,911 --> 01:53:48,788
you really don't expect somebody to come

2640
01:53:48,871 --> 01:53:51,916
breaking down your door to... take all your belongings.

2641
01:53:51,999 --> 01:53:54,877
- We had two huge trailers, boxed-up evidence

2642
01:53:54,960 --> 01:53:58,172
that we had to get it shipped to
the Henderson Police Department.

2643
01:53:59,507 --> 01:54:01,008
We could have hit these houses

2644
01:54:01,092 --> 01:54:04,637
and got zero evidence, and still been able to

2645
01:54:04,720 --> 01:54:08,140
make a case on these guys,
just based on the paper trail

2646
01:54:08,224 --> 01:54:10,184
that they had to leave behind.

2647
01:54:10,267 --> 01:54:12,186
Being that there was so much evidence

2648
01:54:12,269 --> 01:54:14,730
that we had to go through, we did not make arrests

2649
01:54:14,814 --> 01:54:15,856
the day of the raids.

2650
01:54:15,940 --> 01:54:17,775
- There-there were over

2651
01:54:17,858 --> 01:54:21,153
10,000 transactions.

2652
01:54:21,237 --> 01:54:22,613
And so you figure each one of those is a...

2653
01:54:22,697 --> 01:54:24,365
Is a victim. We-we... quite frankly, I think,

2654
01:54:24,448 --> 01:54:27,076
stopped counting after 10,0000-11,0000.

2655
01:54:27,159 --> 01:54:31,122
So when we added up the amounts, approximately,

2656
01:54:31,205 --> 01:54:35,292
we're lookin' at about $2.5 million Cliff defrauded.

2657
01:54:35,376 --> 01:54:37,670
Numerous victims, not just in the United States,

2658
01:54:37,753 --> 01:54:39,839
but Mexico and Canada as well.

2659
01:54:39,922 --> 01:54:42,258
When you're building a case, you look for individuals

2660
01:54:42,341 --> 01:54:44,343
who might be lower-level

2661
01:54:44,427 --> 01:54:46,303
without as much criminal exposure,

2662
01:54:46,387 --> 01:54:49,473
if you will, who might be
willing to cooperate with you.

2663
01:54:49,557 --> 01:54:52,226
The arrest portion of it was a lot of these guys

2664
01:54:52,309 --> 01:54:55,521
pled to a bill of information,
meaning we didn't have to

2665
01:54:55,604 --> 01:54:57,356
fill out arrest forms.

2666
01:54:57,440 --> 01:54:59,525
They came into court, and they just actually

2667
01:54:59,608 --> 01:55:02,820
pled right out of the gate, instead of trying to

2668
01:55:02,903 --> 01:55:05,072
go through a trial or anything like that.

2669
01:55:06,615 --> 01:55:09,577
That was over a period of five years in a fraud case.

2670
01:55:09,660 --> 01:55:12,371
Now local police, the FBI,
Mahoning County prosecutors

2671
01:55:12,455 --> 01:55:13,622
have broken what they say

2672
01:55:13,706 --> 01:55:16,042
was a fake sports memorabilia racket,

2673
01:55:16,125 --> 01:55:18,627
with thousands of victims all across the country.

2674
01:55:20,296 --> 01:55:23,924
[ominous music]

2675
01:55:33,976 --> 01:55:38,064
My sentencing was April 3, 2017.

2676
01:55:39,648 --> 01:55:41,859
And so, when we began this,

2677
01:55:41,942 --> 01:55:44,987
we first went to these different individuals,

2678
01:55:45,071 --> 01:55:47,365
now cooperating. Cliff himself actually

2679
01:55:47,448 --> 01:55:49,825
had come in, and discussed cooperating with us.

2680
01:55:49,909 --> 01:55:51,660
That ultimately did not happen.

2681
01:55:51,744 --> 01:55:55,956
They put a $999 billion hold on every one

2682
01:55:56,040 --> 01:55:57,792
of our four accounts.

2683
01:55:57,875 --> 01:55:58,668
Billion.

2684
01:55:58,751 --> 01:56:00,294
They did that to try and get to Cliff.

2685
01:56:00,378 --> 01:56:02,463
If we had no money, then he would have to surrender

2686
01:56:02,546 --> 01:56:05,257
and, you know, save us.

2687
01:56:05,341 --> 01:56:07,802
Well, the first time...

2688
01:56:07,885 --> 01:56:08,552
was really hard,

2689
01:56:08,636 --> 01:56:11,639
because... we knew they were trying to

2690
01:56:11,722 --> 01:56:14,684
indict us, but we were waiting and watching

2691
01:56:14,767 --> 01:56:17,603
for an arrest warrant to come through an indictment.

2692
01:56:17,687 --> 01:56:20,690
Actually, it was Brian McGivern,
the detective out of Canfield,

2693
01:56:20,773 --> 01:56:24,110
that went to the Austintown judge,

2694
01:56:24,193 --> 01:56:26,696
and his statement,

2695
01:56:26,779 --> 01:56:28,823
under penalty of perjury,

2696
01:56:28,906 --> 01:56:31,283
was that we fled the state of Ohio

2697
01:56:31,367 --> 01:56:33,160
to avoid arrest.

2698
01:56:33,244 --> 01:56:35,996
That could not be possible,
because he knew we lived here.

2699
01:56:36,080 --> 01:56:39,750
He was here, and he said
that to the judge to get a warrant

2700
01:56:39,834 --> 01:56:42,962
for our arrests. So then they
called the Henderson police

2701
01:56:43,045 --> 01:56:45,172
and said, "Arrest them, they're fugitives."

2702
01:56:45,256 --> 01:56:47,091
So I never got to speak the three months

2703
01:56:47,174 --> 01:56:49,301
I was in Henderson jail.

2704
01:56:49,385 --> 01:56:53,389
Until February 18, when I got a different judge.

2705
01:56:53,472 --> 01:56:55,683
And so I told them I'd been arrested as a fugitive,

2706
01:56:55,766 --> 01:56:59,687
and I wasn't. I've been a resident here for two years.

2707
01:56:59,770 --> 01:57:01,313
And he was like, "Well, how long have you been here?"

2708
01:57:01,397 --> 01:57:04,817
I said, "Three months." He said "ROR."

2709
01:57:04,900 --> 01:57:06,277
Released On your own Recognizance,

2710
01:57:06,360 --> 01:57:08,237
and that night I got out.

2711
01:57:08,320 --> 01:57:12,324
After I took the deal of taking probation,

2712
01:57:12,408 --> 01:57:15,745
then a month later, they told me to go back

2713
01:57:15,828 --> 01:57:19,290
to Ohio so I could testify at the Grand Jury

2714
01:57:19,373 --> 01:57:22,209
to indict Cliff. - Before she goes on the stand,

2715
01:57:22,293 --> 01:57:24,503
Marty Desmond, again, the prosecutor,

2716
01:57:24,587 --> 01:57:27,673
tells her that he thinks she's gonna lie,

2717
01:57:27,757 --> 01:57:29,633
and that he's violating her probation.

2718
01:57:29,717 --> 01:57:32,386
So she never sets foot on the stand at the Grand Jury.

2719
01:57:32,470 --> 01:57:34,555
The next day she has her probation violated,

2720
01:57:34,638 --> 01:57:36,140
and gets put in Mahoning County Jail.

2721
01:57:36,223 --> 01:57:37,933
The next morning, I was arrested

2722
01:57:38,017 --> 01:57:40,853
and jailed in Youngstown on a probation violation.

2723
01:57:43,314 --> 01:57:45,649
Four days later, I get indicted.

2724
01:57:45,733 --> 01:57:47,193
I go in front of the judge,

2725
01:57:47,276 --> 01:57:49,862
my bail gets raised to half a million.

2726
01:57:49,945 --> 01:57:52,073
So now I can't get out.

2727
01:57:52,156 --> 01:57:54,367
My mother's in jail, I'm in jail,

2728
01:57:54,450 --> 01:57:55,868
my father's in Nevada.

2729
01:57:55,951 --> 01:57:57,286
This was done deliberate.

2730
01:57:57,370 --> 01:57:58,788
There was no one to take care of my father.

2731
01:57:58,871 --> 01:58:00,831
He's 2,000 miles away.

2732
01:58:00,915 --> 01:58:02,458
Neither one of us is gettin' out.

2733
01:58:02,541 --> 01:58:04,794
I can't post half a million, obviously.

2734
01:58:04,877 --> 01:58:08,881
When we met with him, uh, I remember I asked him...

2735
01:58:08,964 --> 01:58:10,216
You know, I've heard, you know,

2736
01:58:10,299 --> 01:58:12,301
you're really good at this. Let me see.

2737
01:58:12,385 --> 01:58:14,136
Let me... let me see how good you are.

2738
01:58:15,513 --> 01:58:17,139
I said, "Let me see you do Lebron James."

2739
01:58:17,223 --> 01:58:19,392
He said, "Well, six or 23?"

2740
01:58:19,475 --> 01:58:22,186
"Lemme see both."

2741
01:58:22,269 --> 01:58:24,230
Didn't-didn't have to think,
didn't have to look at anything.

2742
01:58:24,313 --> 01:58:25,106
Didn't have to do anything.

2743
01:58:25,189 --> 01:58:27,983
Just signed it, and slid it over.

2744
01:58:28,067 --> 01:58:30,236
Inside my computer, I pull up, you know,

2745
01:58:30,319 --> 01:58:33,572
I-I Google search, you know, Lebron James autograph.

2746
01:58:33,656 --> 01:58:36,492
And I'm looking at the two, and this is unreal.

2747
01:58:36,575 --> 01:58:38,285
I mean, this is... this is almost exact.

2748
01:58:38,369 --> 01:58:39,912
And I remember when we're lookin' at

2749
01:58:39,995 --> 01:58:43,082
one in particular, it had a blue background.

2750
01:58:43,165 --> 01:58:45,084
And he said, "Yeah, you can't trust the blue ones."

2751
01:58:45,167 --> 01:58:46,669
And he said, "Yeah, that's my signature."

2752
01:58:46,752 --> 01:58:48,421
He goes, "That organization uses my signature as"

2753
01:58:48,504 --> 01:58:51,590
"an authentication signature." [chuckling]

2754
01:58:51,674 --> 01:58:53,426
And-and... and so I... I was kinda taken aback

2755
01:58:53,509 --> 01:58:55,302
by that, that, you know, you have these organizations

2756
01:58:55,386 --> 01:58:57,430
that are in place to prevent this,

2757
01:58:57,513 --> 01:59:00,349
but yet they're using the bad guy's signature

2758
01:59:00,433 --> 01:59:03,269
as their authentication signature.

2759
01:59:03,352 --> 01:59:05,938
My concern with this case...

2760
01:59:06,022 --> 01:59:09,942
was... the tactics used

2761
01:59:10,026 --> 01:59:12,820
to get a guilty plea from him.

2762
01:59:12,903 --> 01:59:15,406
That was my concern with this case.

2763
01:59:15,489 --> 01:59:18,159
I didn't want to...

2764
01:59:18,242 --> 01:59:21,871
come in this case, and...

2765
01:59:21,954 --> 01:59:25,750
force it into trial, when I knew we already had

2766
01:59:25,833 --> 01:59:28,502
all these witnesses who had confessed.

2767
01:59:28,586 --> 01:59:32,131
So it was not going to be a case

2768
01:59:32,214 --> 01:59:35,509
where the facts were favorable to him.

2769
01:59:35,593 --> 01:59:38,054
- Fast-forward, that's... that's the final blow.

2770
01:59:38,137 --> 01:59:40,931
My father goes into the hospital in Nevada,

2771
01:59:41,015 --> 01:59:43,476
we're both locked up in Ohio,

2772
01:59:43,559 --> 01:59:45,436
and I'm told that my mother's not getting out

2773
01:59:45,519 --> 01:59:47,480
unless I plead guilty.

2774
01:59:47,563 --> 01:59:49,273
And that's... that's the end of the case.

2775
01:59:49,357 --> 01:59:52,151
That's where... I really have no choice.

2776
01:59:52,234 --> 01:59:54,070
Panezich is charged with fraud, forgery,

2777
01:59:54,153 --> 01:59:56,614
and money laundering in a
scheme were prosecutors say

2778
01:59:56,697 --> 01:59:59,784
he sold fake autographs. Yesterday we told you

2779
01:59:59,867 --> 02:00:01,619
Panezich agreed to a plea deal,

2780
02:00:01,702 --> 02:00:03,746
on the condition that his mother be released

2781
02:00:03,829 --> 02:00:05,873
from jail. Well, today we can tell you,

2782
02:00:05,956 --> 02:00:08,334
she is out of jail. Panezich himself

2783
02:00:08,417 --> 02:00:10,169
is still behind bars. He'll be back in court

2784
02:00:10,252 --> 02:00:12,713
for sentencing in about six weeks.

2785
02:00:15,174 --> 02:00:17,468
[somber music]

2786
02:00:17,551 --> 02:00:19,762
[indistinct child chatter]

2787
02:00:25,726 --> 02:00:28,562
Let's have some more.

2788
02:00:28,646 --> 02:00:31,565
At the time, anyway but...

2789
02:00:31,649 --> 02:00:34,110
I think he just was more heartbroken.

2790
02:00:34,193 --> 02:00:35,820
He wasn't sure what would happen to Cliff,

2791
02:00:35,903 --> 02:00:39,407
and he didn't live to see the fate of Cliff either.

2792
02:00:39,490 --> 02:00:44,120
[pensive music]

2793
02:00:46,580 --> 02:00:49,875
Frank's sicknesses, I believe,
all came from Agent Orange,

2794
02:00:49,959 --> 02:00:53,379
from Vietnam. He had a lot of... lot of diseases.

2795
02:00:53,462 --> 02:00:54,630
A lot of things wrong.

2796
02:00:54,714 --> 02:00:57,091
Of course, the VA'll never say it was Agent Orange

2797
02:00:57,174 --> 02:01:00,428
in Vietnam, but that's what it was.

2798
02:01:00,511 --> 02:01:04,140
[pensive music]

2799
02:01:05,641 --> 02:01:07,476
Basically, my father was incoherent

2800
02:01:07,560 --> 02:01:09,895
for the last 70 days of his life.

2801
02:01:09,979 --> 02:01:11,522
Tubes in and out of his body.

2802
02:01:11,605 --> 02:01:13,607
A breathing tube, life support,

2803
02:01:13,691 --> 02:01:17,278
kidney dialysis. There really
was no communication with him,

2804
02:01:17,361 --> 02:01:19,238
it was just... being there with him.

2805
02:01:19,321 --> 02:01:22,783
Um, that's how I... how I spent...

2806
02:01:22,867 --> 02:01:26,037
my-my last moments of freedom before I was sentenced.

2807
02:01:26,120 --> 02:01:27,163
You know, we filed a request

2808
02:01:27,246 --> 02:01:30,583
to have my sentencing continued, it was denied.

2809
02:01:30,666 --> 02:01:33,002
A lot of people...

2810
02:01:33,085 --> 02:01:36,922
you know, don't see death as closely as I had to

2811
02:01:37,006 --> 02:01:40,509
right before this happened. You know, death is a...

2812
02:01:40,593 --> 02:01:43,304
a funeral, a coffin, a memorial service.

2813
02:01:43,387 --> 02:01:46,265
I mean, I... I watched my father die, slowly,

2814
02:01:46,349 --> 02:01:48,434
over 75 days.

2815
02:01:48,517 --> 02:01:50,603
And then had to have my fate determined

2816
02:01:50,686 --> 02:01:52,063
20 days later.

2817
02:01:52,146 --> 02:01:53,814
The mothers were down on ya.

2818
02:01:53,898 --> 02:01:55,399
There was talk about bringing a pitcher

2819
02:01:55,483 --> 02:01:58,986
up from the minors. If ya throw some home run balls.

2820
02:01:59,070 --> 02:02:01,572
What do you have to say? - I know I had a bad game.

2821
02:02:01,655 --> 02:02:04,325
I always aspired to...

2822
02:02:04,408 --> 02:02:07,078
you know, follow in his footsteps.

2823
02:02:07,161 --> 02:02:08,537
It gets better.

2824
02:02:08,621 --> 02:02:11,248
The passing of my father haunts me to this day.

2825
02:02:11,332 --> 02:02:15,961
[pensive music]

2826
02:02:28,015 --> 02:02:32,436
[calm music]

2827
02:02:32,520 --> 02:02:34,730
Kind of what my parents kind of installed in me too,

2828
02:02:34,814 --> 02:02:36,691
is you have to go get it, you go earn it, you know?

2829
02:02:36,774 --> 02:02:40,403
[calm music]

2830
02:02:43,197 --> 02:02:44,699
It's almost kind of an addicting feeling

2831
02:02:44,782 --> 02:02:45,866
once you get a business going.

2832
02:02:45,950 --> 02:02:47,118
I think it's one of those things that,

2833
02:02:47,201 --> 02:02:48,327
if you have it, you have it.

2834
02:02:48,411 --> 02:02:50,538
And so, once I kind of got it, it's like, yup,

2835
02:02:50,621 --> 02:02:52,623
I got the itch. I gotta keep goin'.

2836
02:02:52,707 --> 02:02:54,667
You could tell when he walked into a hobby shop,

2837
02:02:54,750 --> 02:02:56,919
that was kind of his, you know, he would kinda

2838
02:02:57,003 --> 02:02:59,588
look around and, you know, see what's going on,

2839
02:02:59,672 --> 02:03:01,632
and, you know, how to actually

2840
02:03:01,716 --> 02:03:04,010
even formulate in his mind
what something would look like

2841
02:03:04,093 --> 02:03:05,678
for his own shop.

2842
02:03:05,761 --> 02:03:07,847
[upbeat music]

2843
02:03:07,930 --> 02:03:09,056
I saw a hole in the market,

2844
02:03:09,140 --> 02:03:12,184
where there was no Pokemon card subscription boxes.

2845
02:03:12,268 --> 02:03:14,979
So I started a Pokemon box subscription company.

2846
02:03:15,062 --> 02:03:17,314
I built a website, did all kinds of stuff.

2847
02:03:17,398 --> 02:03:19,525
It ended up taking off really, really quickly.

2848
02:03:19,608 --> 02:03:22,028
Just under 200 subscribers kind of at the peak, uh,

2849
02:03:22,111 --> 02:03:24,071
for it, which was a $65 box a month.

2850
02:03:24,155 --> 02:03:26,449
So it was a pretty big... pretty big monthly company.

2851
02:03:26,532 --> 02:03:27,783
So it was doing over six figures

2852
02:03:27,867 --> 02:03:28,743
while I was still in high school.

2853
02:03:28,826 --> 02:03:30,119
I was a junior.

2854
02:03:30,202 --> 02:03:32,121
And that kind of got me into, "Man, I can make some money"

2855
02:03:32,204 --> 02:03:34,290
"off cards and selling cards." So from that,

2856
02:03:34,373 --> 02:03:37,084
the Pokemon stuff transitioned
into selling sports cards again.

2857
02:03:37,168 --> 02:03:39,462
And that's really when I got into it.

2858
02:03:39,545 --> 02:03:41,130
I guess over... throughout the school year,

2859
02:03:41,213 --> 02:03:42,798
towards the end, it's like,
all right, you gotta figure out

2860
02:03:42,882 --> 02:03:45,468
what you wanna do, so I'd applied to all these schools,

2861
02:03:45,551 --> 02:03:46,969
got accepted into most of the schools I wanted

2862
02:03:47,053 --> 02:03:49,972
to go to, so then it comes to, kind of, decision time.

2863
02:03:50,056 --> 02:03:52,058
Like, okay, do I wanna... do I wanna pay to go

2864
02:03:52,141 --> 02:03:54,643
to one of these bigger schools, um, and, you know,

2865
02:03:54,727 --> 02:03:56,395
kind of chase this investment banking,

2866
02:03:56,479 --> 02:03:59,648
finance dream, or do I chase the sportscard dream

2867
02:03:59,732 --> 02:04:01,817
and try to make it a reality? So, uh,

2868
02:04:01,901 --> 02:04:05,780
ended up making the decision
to try and open up a store.

2869
02:04:05,863 --> 02:04:06,822
Kind of the town that we're in

2870
02:04:06,906 --> 02:04:08,908
is sort of an undiscovered beach town that I think

2871
02:04:08,991 --> 02:04:10,534
has some potential to become, like,

2872
02:04:10,618 --> 02:04:12,703
one of those main staple beach towns.

2873
02:04:12,787 --> 02:04:14,246
Um, so that was part of the reason I thought

2874
02:04:14,330 --> 02:04:16,415
there was just general opportunity here.

2875
02:04:16,499 --> 02:04:20,127
[calm music]

2876
02:04:23,506 --> 02:04:27,301
[collective chatter]

2877
02:04:27,385 --> 02:04:32,014
[calm music]

2878
02:04:57,373 --> 02:05:02,003
[calm music]

2879
02:05:04,672 --> 02:05:06,340
- That's the card! - Whoa!

2880
02:05:06,424 --> 02:05:08,843
Got it!

2881
02:05:08,926 --> 02:05:10,344
[laughing]

2882
02:05:10,428 --> 02:05:14,306
[collective chatter]

2883
02:05:14,390 --> 02:05:16,559
[calm music]

2884
02:05:16,642 --> 02:05:19,270
It's very important to, uh, to support local...

2885
02:05:19,353 --> 02:05:22,440
I mean, everything, but especially in the hobby.

2886
02:05:22,523 --> 02:05:23,899
[laughing] - Do you remember that?

2887
02:05:23,983 --> 02:05:25,526
God!

2888
02:05:25,609 --> 02:05:27,778
Are you kidding me? - Nope.

2889
02:05:27,862 --> 02:05:30,948
[calm music]

2890
02:05:31,032 --> 02:05:34,243
My parents instilled in me as a kid that local retail...

2891
02:05:34,326 --> 02:05:35,870
Especially my dad instilled this in me,

2892
02:05:35,953 --> 02:05:39,540
that local retail is the heartbeat of a community.

2893
02:05:39,623 --> 02:05:42,251
[calm music]

2894
02:05:44,920 --> 02:05:46,839
It's not what it used to be when I was a kid

2895
02:05:46,922 --> 02:05:49,133
goin' into my local shops. It's more of a...

2896
02:05:49,216 --> 02:05:51,260
Like a celebration, a party atmosphere.

2897
02:05:51,344 --> 02:05:53,804
They're... they could have events, collector's events,

2898
02:05:53,888 --> 02:05:56,098
and trade nights, and giveaways.

2899
02:05:57,850 --> 02:06:00,186
- These-these local shops, they all tell a story.

2900
02:06:00,269 --> 02:06:03,397
They need to be here to help
keep the community growing

2901
02:06:03,481 --> 02:06:05,483
and help keep it going stronger.

2902
02:06:21,749 --> 02:06:23,584
The National Collector's Convention

2903
02:06:23,668 --> 02:06:25,378
was in Baltimore that year.

2904
02:06:25,461 --> 02:06:28,005
The cards were put on full display that year.

2905
02:06:28,089 --> 02:06:31,384
That's basically... the announcement of the find

2906
02:06:31,467 --> 02:06:34,553
came out at the All-Star Break that year.

2907
02:06:34,637 --> 02:06:37,598
And it just went nuts.

2908
02:06:37,682 --> 02:06:42,311
[upbeat music]

2909
02:06:50,569 --> 02:06:52,238
Unlike his grandfather, Karl Kissner says

2910
02:06:52,321 --> 02:06:54,365
he never collected baseball cards,

2911
02:06:54,448 --> 02:06:56,992
but he has a newfound appreciation for them.

2912
02:06:57,076 --> 02:07:01,706
[upbeat music]

2913
02:07:04,125 --> 02:07:07,169
It was important to get mainstream press,

2914
02:07:07,253 --> 02:07:11,465
and to publicize this find, so
that people would understand

2915
02:07:11,549 --> 02:07:14,593
what this set was, why it was significant.

2916
02:07:14,677 --> 02:07:16,262
The day the story broke,

2917
02:07:16,345 --> 02:07:18,014
somebody said, "You're on the front page."

2918
02:07:18,097 --> 02:07:20,099
And I said, "Oh, we made the front page, huh?"

2919
02:07:20,182 --> 02:07:23,978
And they went, "No, you are the front page!"

2920
02:07:24,061 --> 02:07:26,313
Since they designated me as the spokesperson

2921
02:07:26,397 --> 02:07:29,358
for the family, everybody else stayed out of it.

2922
02:07:29,442 --> 02:07:33,696
So all questions were fielded to me.

2923
02:07:33,779 --> 02:07:36,490
Okay, you know, I'm in front of the public every day

2924
02:07:36,574 --> 02:07:39,660
in my restaurant. I'm used to a certain amount of that.

2925
02:07:39,744 --> 02:07:42,413
This was kinda up a notch. You know, when you got

2926
02:07:42,496 --> 02:07:44,749
Fox News callin' you, when you got ABC,

2927
02:07:44,832 --> 02:07:48,127
NBC, CBS, all callin' ya up wantin' to do interviews.

2928
02:07:48,210 --> 02:07:50,671
And we got to go on the... "The Today Show,"

2929
02:07:50,755 --> 02:07:53,049
with, uh, with Matt Lauer, which was a lot of fun

2930
02:07:53,132 --> 02:07:56,010
for everybody. Never thought I'd be, uh, I'd be doing that.

2931
02:07:56,093 --> 02:07:57,428
And that was one of the interviews,

2932
02:07:57,511 --> 02:07:58,637
when they got done, they said, "Well",

2933
02:07:58,721 --> 02:08:00,931
"every attic in America is gonna get cleaned out

2934
02:08:01,015 --> 02:08:03,434
"this weekend." And it kinda sorta did.

2935
02:08:03,517 --> 02:08:05,227
This Sacramento man found them in a tin

2936
02:08:05,311 --> 02:08:06,645
while cleaning out his father's home

2937
02:08:06,729 --> 02:08:08,189
after his father passed away.

2938
02:08:08,272 --> 02:08:10,066
For generations, a treasure was kept

2939
02:08:10,149 --> 02:08:13,361
inside the attic of this northern New Jersey home.

2940
02:08:13,444 --> 02:08:15,738
It's what people dream of every day, right?

2941
02:08:15,821 --> 02:08:18,157
Going up into the attic of a relative,

2942
02:08:18,240 --> 02:08:21,118
or into your own attic, and coming across something

2943
02:08:21,202 --> 02:08:23,120
that is a hidden treasure. - Just like he went back

2944
02:08:23,204 --> 02:08:25,581
to 1910, and you were takin' a look in there,

2945
02:08:25,664 --> 02:08:28,084
and it was like you were back
in that day finding these cards.

2946
02:08:28,167 --> 02:08:30,670
Just an unbelievable, unbelievable find.

2947
02:08:30,753 --> 02:08:32,380
In pristine condition.

2948
02:08:32,463 --> 02:08:34,715
Nobody thought it could happen,

2949
02:08:34,799 --> 02:08:36,550
and now people always think,

2950
02:08:36,634 --> 02:08:39,178
will this be the next Black Swamp Find?

2951
02:08:39,261 --> 02:08:42,932
You're talking about players that set the standard

2952
02:08:43,015 --> 02:08:46,769
by which baseball is still played today.

2953
02:08:46,852 --> 02:08:49,605
The initial records, the masters of the triple play.

2954
02:08:49,689 --> 02:08:52,733
Tinkers to Evers to Chance. Here they all are.

2955
02:08:52,817 --> 02:08:55,194
You know, Honus Wagner.

2956
02:08:55,277 --> 02:08:56,696
The Cy Young.

2957
02:08:56,779 --> 02:08:58,322
And they're all here.

2958
02:08:58,406 --> 02:09:01,283
So to baseball, I mean these are the...

2959
02:09:01,367 --> 02:09:03,494
You know, these are the golden boys.

2960
02:09:05,371 --> 02:09:07,248
We actually gave a card...

2961
02:09:07,331 --> 02:09:09,458
to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

2962
02:09:11,752 --> 02:09:15,589
As a find goes in baseball, this was huge.

2963
02:09:15,673 --> 02:09:17,466
I didn't know that.

2964
02:09:17,550 --> 02:09:19,343
We didn't know that.

2965
02:09:20,678 --> 02:09:23,681
We actually just kinda had fun with it.

2966
02:09:23,764 --> 02:09:26,142
Then all of a sudden, the Black Swamp cards came out,

2967
02:09:26,225 --> 02:09:29,145
they were all anywhere from 7 to 9s,

2968
02:09:29,228 --> 02:09:31,814
and they immediately
devalued all of the previously

2969
02:09:31,897 --> 02:09:33,941
high-grade cards. - During the...

2970
02:09:34,025 --> 02:09:36,152
The live auction in Baltimore that year,

2971
02:09:36,235 --> 02:09:38,863
uh, they were broken up into three different lots.

2972
02:09:38,946 --> 02:09:42,533
We sold, uh, one of the finest-known set

2973
02:09:42,616 --> 02:09:45,411
which sold for $240,000.

2974
02:09:45,494 --> 02:09:48,831
We sold a Honus Wagner example,

2975
02:09:48,914 --> 02:09:51,250
which graded a PSA Gem Mint 10.

2976
02:09:51,333 --> 02:09:53,085
It's the only Wagner card that's ever graded

2977
02:09:53,169 --> 02:09:55,004
a Gem Mint 10 at the time.

2978
02:09:55,087 --> 02:09:58,632
And, uh, that sold for $240,000 on its own.

2979
02:09:58,716 --> 02:10:01,260
And then we sold some of... a lot of duplicate cards

2980
02:10:01,344 --> 02:10:03,929
that sold for right around $40,000-$50,000.

2981
02:10:04,013 --> 02:10:06,682
So, uh, the three lots together

2982
02:10:06,766 --> 02:10:10,019
brought $566,000 total,

2983
02:10:10,102 --> 02:10:11,937
and those were just the first three lots

2984
02:10:12,021 --> 02:10:13,397
from the collection.

2985
02:10:13,481 --> 02:10:16,233
As I said, the collection consisted of over 600 cards

2986
02:10:16,317 --> 02:10:19,153
in total, so we didn't want to sell them all

2987
02:10:19,236 --> 02:10:20,905
right off the bat. You know, the family

2988
02:10:20,988 --> 02:10:22,948
was on the same page with us, you know?

2989
02:10:23,032 --> 02:10:25,201
This type of collection entering the marketplace,

2990
02:10:25,284 --> 02:10:26,786
we certainly didn't want to flood it.

2991
02:10:26,869 --> 02:10:29,538
So we offered additional parts of the collection

2992
02:10:29,622 --> 02:10:31,791
through our auctions over the next three years,

2993
02:10:31,874 --> 02:10:33,959
and in total, we ended up selling

2994
02:10:34,043 --> 02:10:37,338
approximately 600 cards for the family.

2995
02:10:37,421 --> 02:10:39,799
And they brought just under $3 million.

2996
02:10:44,553 --> 02:10:47,890
Our family's kinda weird in one sense.

2997
02:10:47,973 --> 02:10:51,018
We all appreciate money,

2998
02:10:51,102 --> 02:10:52,978
and what it can do.

2999
02:10:53,062 --> 02:10:55,189
But we also understand...

3000
02:10:55,272 --> 02:10:57,733
that... it's just money.

3001
02:10:57,817 --> 02:10:59,902
It's just stuff.

3002
02:10:59,985 --> 02:11:02,697
My-my family is far more important,

3003
02:11:02,780 --> 02:11:05,366
and their families.

3004
02:11:05,449 --> 02:11:08,285
And the extended families are far more important.

3005
02:11:08,369 --> 02:11:09,453
I have to say,

3006
02:11:09,537 --> 02:11:12,873
it was a complete pleasure
working with their family.

3007
02:11:12,957 --> 02:11:15,251
Karl was great, his cousin Karla,

3008
02:11:15,334 --> 02:11:16,711
and they introduced me to all their brothers

3009
02:11:16,794 --> 02:11:18,337
and sisters and cousins.

3010
02:11:18,421 --> 02:11:21,257
They're just a great family.

3011
02:11:21,340 --> 02:11:23,092
The Black Swamp Find is... I would consider

3012
02:11:23,175 --> 02:11:25,386
one of the two greatest finds of...

3013
02:11:25,469 --> 02:11:28,055
In the sports collecting industry.

3014
02:11:28,139 --> 02:11:30,391
You know, this was something they literally almost

3015
02:11:30,474 --> 02:11:32,059
threw in the trash, and they knew it.

3016
02:11:32,143 --> 02:11:34,395
And they just considered themselves very blessed

3017
02:11:34,478 --> 02:11:36,772
and lucky to have... to have come across it,

3018
02:11:36,856 --> 02:11:37,982
and then to have... ultimately to have

3019
02:11:38,065 --> 02:11:39,984
contacted us, and they had a lot of fun with it,

3020
02:11:40,067 --> 02:11:41,527
as did we.

3021
02:11:41,610 --> 02:11:44,030
We had more fun...

3022
02:11:44,113 --> 02:11:45,823
goin' through that...

3023
02:11:45,906 --> 02:11:49,368
pile... than you would ever think imaginable.

3024
02:11:49,452 --> 02:11:52,663
Can you imagine finding a toy that you played with

3025
02:11:52,747 --> 02:11:55,166
60 years ago?

3026
02:11:55,249 --> 02:11:57,960
So as we started cleaning out this house,

3027
02:11:58,044 --> 02:12:00,796
as a family... so all memories

3028
02:12:00,880 --> 02:12:03,716
that we created...

3029
02:12:03,799 --> 02:12:06,594
and all the memories we shared...

3030
02:12:06,677 --> 02:12:09,597
are just, to this day,

3031
02:12:09,680 --> 02:12:11,223
wonderful!

3032
02:12:11,307 --> 02:12:12,725
♪ What are you waiting for ♪

3033
02:12:12,808 --> 02:12:15,227
♪ Better pray ♪

3034
02:12:15,311 --> 02:12:18,564
♪ Pray ♪

3035
02:12:18,647 --> 02:12:21,525
[calm music]

3036
02:12:21,609 --> 02:12:25,946
♪ Better pray ♪

3037
02:12:26,030 --> 02:12:29,492
[calm music]

3038
02:12:29,575 --> 02:12:32,578
♪ It's better to pray ♪

3039
02:12:32,661 --> 02:12:33,496
♪ Pray ♪

3040
02:12:33,579 --> 02:12:35,956
You think about family, and you think about America,

3041
02:12:36,040 --> 02:12:38,501
and you think about... in today's world,

3042
02:12:38,584 --> 02:12:40,419
all these immigrants coming to America.

3043
02:12:40,503 --> 02:12:42,338
I don't blame any of 'em for wantin' to come here.

3044
02:12:42,421 --> 02:12:43,798
They came here for a better life,

3045
02:12:43,881 --> 02:12:45,216
and the American story.

3046
02:12:45,299 --> 02:12:47,468
You know, and here, this card find is

3047
02:12:47,551 --> 02:12:49,887
part of that American story now.

3048
02:12:49,970 --> 02:12:52,848
You know, we're... we're in a small town.

3049
02:12:52,932 --> 02:12:55,393
My business has been here 95 years.

3050
02:12:55,476 --> 02:12:58,104
It's considered part of the community now.

3051
02:12:58,187 --> 02:12:59,939
But we all become part of it,

3052
02:13:00,022 --> 02:13:02,900
and this story, the Black Swamp Find,

3053
02:13:02,983 --> 02:13:06,696
is now part of baseball lore.

3054
02:13:06,779 --> 02:13:11,200
And part of card-finding, card-collecting lore.

3055
02:13:11,283 --> 02:13:14,370
And the little kid goin' "I wish."

3056
02:13:14,453 --> 02:13:17,623
Yeah. I am that little kid.

3057
02:13:17,707 --> 02:13:21,043
Yeah, who found the "I wish," you know?

3058
02:13:21,127 --> 02:13:24,380
And to be able to share that with so many people,

3059
02:13:24,463 --> 02:13:27,049
to be able to share that with so many family members,

3060
02:13:27,133 --> 02:13:28,592
it-it doesn't get any better than that.

3061
02:13:28,676 --> 02:13:30,469
It really doesn't.

3062
02:13:38,394 --> 02:13:43,024
[calm music]

3063
02:13:48,029 --> 02:13:50,156
[indistinct]

3064
02:13:50,239 --> 02:13:51,407
[chuckling]

3065
02:13:51,490 --> 02:13:53,993
He's on his way. Oh...

3066
02:13:54,076 --> 02:13:56,245
[sighing]

3067
02:13:56,328 --> 02:13:58,622
Oh, Cliff.

3068
02:13:58,706 --> 02:14:00,374
Come on.

3069
02:14:00,458 --> 02:14:03,044
Oh god, five years.

3070
02:14:03,127 --> 02:14:05,212
Oh god.

3071
02:14:07,757 --> 02:14:10,926
Five years and three months.

3072
02:14:11,010 --> 02:14:12,386
Oh...

3073
02:14:12,470 --> 02:14:15,181
1,912 days.

3074
02:14:15,264 --> 02:14:16,891
You weren't comin' from Houston, were you?

3075
02:14:16,974 --> 02:14:18,267
- No. - No.

3076
02:14:18,351 --> 02:14:19,268
Thanks.

3077
02:14:19,352 --> 02:14:21,020
You weren't comin' from Houston, were you?

3078
02:14:21,103 --> 02:14:23,147
- I was not. - Thank you.

3079
02:14:23,230 --> 02:14:25,316
Nope, not Houston.

3080
02:14:25,399 --> 02:14:28,110
[indistinct], would he be able to see you?

3081
02:14:29,904 --> 02:14:34,033
Oh!

3082
02:14:34,116 --> 02:14:38,204
[sobbing]

3083
02:14:38,287 --> 02:14:43,918
[calm music]

3084
02:15:04,730 --> 02:15:06,857
All right, it's over. It's over.

3085
02:15:10,069 --> 02:15:12,238
It's over, all right?

3086
02:15:12,321 --> 02:15:16,951
[calm music]

3087
02:15:42,059 --> 02:15:46,689
[music fades]

3088
02:15:55,322 --> 02:15:57,533
'Cause you know, I can't ever beat you

3089
02:15:57,616 --> 02:15:59,493
at anything.

3090
02:16:02,747 --> 02:16:04,290
I was wrong. You didn't have the Queen of Clubs,

3091
02:16:04,373 --> 02:16:06,125
obviously.

3092
02:16:08,419 --> 02:16:09,795
Well, there will be no point in time

3093
02:16:09,879 --> 02:16:13,049
where my... my mother's alone again, and I'm just...

3094
02:16:13,132 --> 02:16:14,467
Blessed and grateful to be home.

3095
02:16:14,550 --> 02:16:15,843
There's still some bumps in the road,

3096
02:16:15,926 --> 02:16:19,597
and some residual effects of what went on.

3097
02:16:19,680 --> 02:16:21,474
Um, we're just finally starting to get into

3098
02:16:21,557 --> 02:16:23,225
some normalcy.

3099
02:16:23,309 --> 02:16:27,063
[calm music]

3100
02:16:27,146 --> 02:16:28,439
There's no way to... to beat around it.

3101
02:16:28,522 --> 02:16:30,941
My father knew bits and pieces of what

3102
02:16:31,025 --> 02:16:33,986
was goin' on. Um, he had no involvement.

3103
02:16:34,070 --> 02:16:35,363
None whatsoever.

3104
02:16:35,446 --> 02:16:38,741
Interestingly about Frank, the father,

3105
02:16:38,824 --> 02:16:41,577
he actually called me without Cliff or Rose,

3106
02:16:41,660 --> 02:16:43,996
uh, knowing, and he said, you know, "Detective",

3107
02:16:44,080 --> 02:16:46,540
"listen, I told these guys to stop doing this"

3108
02:16:46,624 --> 02:16:49,919
"a long time ago. I didn't like what they were doing."

3109
02:16:50,002 --> 02:16:52,046
He goes "I'm... I'm really sick",

3110
02:16:52,129 --> 02:16:54,548
"and I just wanna get my family back together."

3111
02:16:54,632 --> 02:16:56,509
And I said, "I understand that."

3112
02:16:56,592 --> 02:16:58,177
And I appreciate you calling me,

3113
02:16:58,260 --> 02:17:00,388
and-and saying those words.

3114
02:17:00,471 --> 02:17:03,724
Um, but it is what it is,

3115
02:17:03,808 --> 02:17:06,602
and they're gonna have to pay for what they did.

3116
02:17:06,686 --> 02:17:09,230
[calm music]

3117
02:17:09,313 --> 02:17:10,940
We eventually came to a plea agreement

3118
02:17:11,023 --> 02:17:14,235
in December. It was...

3119
02:17:14,318 --> 02:17:18,114
Completely dictated by the fact that...

3120
02:17:18,197 --> 02:17:20,032
my father's health was deteriorating,

3121
02:17:20,116 --> 02:17:23,119
he was in the hospital, out here in Nevada.

3122
02:17:23,202 --> 02:17:24,912
Um...

3123
02:17:24,995 --> 02:17:26,664
and I needed to get home.

3124
02:17:26,747 --> 02:17:29,333
And Marty played off that.

3125
02:17:29,417 --> 02:17:33,379
And, uh, part of getting me to plead guilty...

3126
02:17:33,462 --> 02:17:36,007
was an agreement that I got to leave,

3127
02:17:36,090 --> 02:17:39,510
awaiting sentencing.

3128
02:17:39,593 --> 02:17:41,846
And, uh, I had...

3129
02:17:41,929 --> 02:17:44,473
roughly 90 days of freedom left,

3130
02:17:44,557 --> 02:17:45,474
from when I plead guilty

3131
02:17:45,558 --> 02:17:47,727
to when I got sentenced

3132
02:17:47,810 --> 02:17:49,854
on April 17, 2017.

3133
02:17:49,937 --> 02:17:53,315
And 70 of those days were spent in the ICU Unit...

3134
02:17:56,819 --> 02:17:58,904
watching my father die.

3135
02:18:00,197 --> 02:18:01,699
His last days, I had a conversation

3136
02:18:01,782 --> 02:18:03,659
with him to...

3137
02:18:03,743 --> 02:18:05,494
Really it was just me, me talking to him,

3138
02:18:05,578 --> 02:18:08,205
'cause he was already...

3139
02:18:08,289 --> 02:18:10,207
already kinda gone.

3140
02:18:10,291 --> 02:18:13,461
But, uh...

3141
02:18:13,544 --> 02:18:16,589
[sniffling]

3142
02:18:16,672 --> 02:18:18,883
Letting him know that my mom was never gonna

3143
02:18:18,966 --> 02:18:21,135
be alone again.

3144
02:18:21,218 --> 02:18:23,387
That I'd take care of it.

3145
02:18:27,266 --> 02:18:29,810
And then I left for six years.

3146
02:18:31,395 --> 02:18:35,024
[calm music]

3147
02:18:37,902 --> 02:18:39,195
Hey, what's up? Cliff Panezich here.

3148
02:18:39,278 --> 02:18:41,364
Mastermind of Operation Stolen Base.

3149
02:18:41,447 --> 02:18:42,406
Make sure you guys follow me

3150
02:18:42,490 --> 02:18:44,283
across all my social media accounts.

3151
02:18:44,367 --> 02:18:46,077
Lifeafterprison on TikTok,

3152
02:18:46,160 --> 02:18:48,245
@CPanezich on Instagram.

3153
02:18:48,329 --> 02:18:51,290
You know, seeing the ins and outs of the prison system,

3154
02:18:51,374 --> 02:18:54,627
I've definitely become a prison reform advocate.

3155
02:18:54,710 --> 02:18:57,254
My way of goin' about that is, you know,

3156
02:18:57,338 --> 02:18:59,590
I created this brand, the Iconic brand,

3157
02:18:59,674 --> 02:19:02,218
to which we operate under the slogan

3158
02:19:02,301 --> 02:19:04,720
"Turning cons into icons."

3159
02:19:04,804 --> 02:19:07,473
You know, it benefits society
if we can be functioning

3160
02:19:07,556 --> 02:19:10,309
members of, you know, a successful society.

3161
02:19:10,393 --> 02:19:13,604
I feel horrible for what I did to...

3162
02:19:13,688 --> 02:19:17,650
To any children that may
have gotten a phony autograph,

3163
02:19:17,733 --> 02:19:20,778
to any adults that...

3164
02:19:20,861 --> 02:19:23,864
to the people who trusted us,

3165
02:19:23,948 --> 02:19:26,325
we basically just took advantage of...

3166
02:19:26,409 --> 02:19:28,828
people wanting... wanting something

3167
02:19:28,911 --> 02:19:32,164
to, uh, hang onto, and... or to show off,

3168
02:19:32,248 --> 02:19:34,125
or just share a story around it,

3169
02:19:34,208 --> 02:19:36,460
I'm-I'm so sorry for everybody I...

3170
02:19:36,544 --> 02:19:40,673
I affected, during the course
of, um, Operation Stolen Base.

3171
02:19:40,756 --> 02:19:44,385
[calm music]

3172
02:19:50,099 --> 02:19:51,642
You know, I can only speak for my time in Ohio,

3173
02:19:51,726 --> 02:19:53,811
and I can only speak from my personal experience,

3174
02:19:53,894 --> 02:19:56,022
but my time was very smooth.

3175
02:19:57,356 --> 02:19:59,817
My in with everybody in prison was I played sports,

3176
02:19:59,900 --> 02:20:01,444
and I gambled, so...

3177
02:20:01,527 --> 02:20:04,488
Uh, the truth of it is, um, inside, I ran most of

3178
02:20:04,572 --> 02:20:07,450
the gambling that went on at every prison I was at.

3179
02:20:07,533 --> 02:20:10,202
I ran, you know, casino games, blackjack games,

3180
02:20:10,286 --> 02:20:12,496
I ran all the sports betting.

3181
02:20:12,580 --> 02:20:15,166
The prison I just left from, I had a 16-man operation

3182
02:20:15,249 --> 02:20:17,585
where 15 people worked under me.

3183
02:20:17,668 --> 02:20:19,378
We ran all of the sports betting,

3184
02:20:19,462 --> 02:20:21,005
the entire season long. Baseball, football,

3185
02:20:21,088 --> 02:20:22,798
basketball.

3186
02:20:23,924 --> 02:20:25,760
There were a couple hiccups along the way,

3187
02:20:25,843 --> 02:20:28,512
which is also why I ended up at max security prison

3188
02:20:28,596 --> 02:20:31,891
for 18 months. Um, because of the gambling.

3189
02:20:31,974 --> 02:20:36,228
[calm music]

3190
02:20:36,312 --> 02:20:38,314
Am I remorseful for my crime

3191
02:20:38,397 --> 02:20:42,318
is a multi-faceted question. Multi... multi layers...

3192
02:20:43,444 --> 02:20:44,987
to what that means.

3193
02:20:45,071 --> 02:20:47,865
Am I remorseful for the crime itself?

3194
02:20:47,948 --> 02:20:50,159
Of course. You know, um...

3195
02:20:51,786 --> 02:20:53,871
I'm not proud of my crime.

3196
02:20:56,165 --> 02:20:58,459
The way I went about handling my business

3197
02:20:58,542 --> 02:21:01,295
was not proper, um... I could have chose to do so

3198
02:21:01,379 --> 02:21:03,756
in different ways.

3199
02:21:03,839 --> 02:21:05,716
But man, there were... there were so many people

3200
02:21:05,800 --> 02:21:08,010
relying upon it...

3201
02:21:08,094 --> 02:21:10,930
for mortgage payments, car payments,

3202
02:21:11,013 --> 02:21:13,307
uh, just... just to eat and survive.

3203
02:21:13,391 --> 02:21:15,226
You know, I... I remember multiple times

3204
02:21:15,309 --> 02:21:16,769
while I was living in Henderson,

3205
02:21:16,852 --> 02:21:19,480
out here in Las Vegas, where I dreaded to

3206
02:21:19,563 --> 02:21:22,066
wake up in the morning and look at my phone,

3207
02:21:22,149 --> 02:21:24,026
'cause I just knew there were gonna be text messages

3208
02:21:24,110 --> 02:21:26,779
saying... "I need X amount of baseballs",

3209
02:21:26,862 --> 02:21:28,614
"I need X amount of photos,"

3210
02:21:28,698 --> 02:21:31,117
"I need this signed, I need that signed."

3211
02:21:31,200 --> 02:21:34,620
The operation got to the extreme that it did

3212
02:21:34,704 --> 02:21:37,498
because I never told anybody no.

3213
02:21:42,628 --> 02:21:45,006
No... in no... in no small way...

3214
02:21:46,090 --> 02:21:48,718
was the crime...

3215
02:21:48,801 --> 02:21:52,680
proliferated because of my own playing career.

3216
02:21:52,763 --> 02:21:54,473
You know, there were points at time

3217
02:21:54,557 --> 02:21:56,559
where... you know, playing low-level

3218
02:21:56,642 --> 02:21:58,602
minor league baseball...

3219
02:21:58,686 --> 02:22:01,188
does not pay much.

3220
02:22:01,272 --> 02:22:03,899
Does not pay in the off season.

3221
02:22:03,983 --> 02:22:07,236
My rookie season, I made $1,000 a month,

3222
02:22:07,319 --> 02:22:09,697
for the duration of the season.

3223
02:22:09,780 --> 02:22:12,033
Season ends in September.

3224
02:22:12,116 --> 02:22:15,327
I don't make any money October through Spring.

3225
02:22:15,411 --> 02:22:18,748
You know, but, uh, advancing my career, you know,

3226
02:22:18,831 --> 02:22:20,541
I have to train five days a week.

3227
02:22:20,624 --> 02:22:22,460
I have to pay a hitting instructor,

3228
02:22:22,543 --> 02:22:24,712
a baseball facility, a personal trainer,

3229
02:22:24,795 --> 02:22:27,506
a gym. You know, so where does that money come from?

3230
02:22:27,590 --> 02:22:29,925
And that's how the original operation started

3231
02:22:30,009 --> 02:22:32,178
is on the weekends,

3232
02:22:32,261 --> 02:22:35,389
you know, traveling, paying college players.

3233
02:22:35,473 --> 02:22:37,767
I mean, this is before NIL deals.

3234
02:22:38,976 --> 02:22:41,437
And obviously it transitioned into the forgeries,

3235
02:22:41,520 --> 02:22:43,773
and there's a point in time, you know,

3236
02:22:43,856 --> 02:22:47,068
comical now, but twice,

3237
02:22:47,151 --> 02:22:50,780
to where I was playing in minor league, you know,

3238
02:22:50,863 --> 02:22:53,449
independent baseball leagues...

3239
02:22:53,532 --> 02:22:56,077
playing in front of fans,

3240
02:22:56,160 --> 02:22:57,828
selling forgeries out of my hotel room

3241
02:22:57,912 --> 02:22:59,455
to cover my expenses.

3242
02:22:59,538 --> 02:23:03,918
So again, that's not to justify what happened.

3243
02:23:04,001 --> 02:23:07,588
But it's part of an explanation of how it started.

3244
02:23:07,672 --> 02:23:09,590
If I wasn't selling forgeries out of my hotel room

3245
02:23:09,674 --> 02:23:12,259
to cover my expenses, where does the money come from?

3246
02:23:12,343 --> 02:23:15,221
[calm music]

3247
02:23:15,304 --> 02:23:16,972
As my career ended,

3248
02:23:17,056 --> 02:23:19,183
you know, you can look at...

3249
02:23:19,266 --> 02:23:21,644
you know, I was just lost, searching for a replacement

3250
02:23:21,727 --> 02:23:23,813
for baseball.

3251
02:23:23,896 --> 02:23:25,231
Nice one, Cliff.

3252
02:23:25,314 --> 02:23:27,525
[indistinct chatter]

3253
02:23:28,818 --> 02:23:31,946
The one common personality trait that I see amongst

3254
02:23:32,029 --> 02:23:33,906
people that I would investigate,

3255
02:23:33,989 --> 02:23:35,908
you know, it's ultimately about greed.

3256
02:23:35,991 --> 02:23:37,284
Yeah, I've seen... I've seen my fair share

3257
02:23:37,368 --> 02:23:40,246
of fake autographs, or people claiming that

3258
02:23:40,329 --> 02:23:43,833
something's game-worn, or some... something made,

3259
02:23:43,916 --> 02:23:45,710
and it's like mine, and it's like,

3260
02:23:45,793 --> 02:23:47,712
that's not me. Or people will try to come up with

3261
02:23:47,795 --> 02:23:49,797
AJ Dillon signature shirt, and I'm just like,

3262
02:23:49,880 --> 02:23:51,924
I never... that's not me. You made that yourself.

3263
02:23:52,008 --> 02:23:53,759
With the con men in the industry,

3264
02:23:53,843 --> 02:23:56,220
it-it's a tough thing. It's a tough thing to deal with

3265
02:23:56,303 --> 02:23:58,139
in general as a collector, not knowing...

3266
02:23:58,222 --> 02:23:59,890
And it brings a lot of uncertainty, too,

3267
02:23:59,974 --> 02:24:01,767
to collectors, not knowing if what you're getting

3268
02:24:01,851 --> 02:24:02,852
is legit or not.

3269
02:24:02,935 --> 02:24:06,355
To me, the industry is so... so far gone...

3270
02:24:07,815 --> 02:24:11,193
from what I remember in my childhood,

3271
02:24:11,277 --> 02:24:13,487
that...

3272
02:24:13,571 --> 02:24:15,823
it doesn't even matter to me...

3273
02:24:15,906 --> 02:24:17,950
what authentication or what sticker,

3274
02:24:18,034 --> 02:24:20,870
or what certification is on
any piece of memorabilia.

3275
02:24:20,953 --> 02:24:22,788
I'm gonna look at it and hang it on someone's wall

3276
02:24:22,872 --> 02:24:24,874
and just assume it's counterfeit.

3277
02:24:24,957 --> 02:24:28,669
So Whatnot streamer got caught stealing

3278
02:24:28,753 --> 02:24:31,172
a Kaboom card.

3279
02:24:31,255 --> 02:24:33,382
On a stream, live.

3280
02:24:36,969 --> 02:24:39,263
See what we got here. We got an orange.

3281
02:24:39,347 --> 02:24:40,598
Ooh.

3282
02:24:40,681 --> 02:24:42,600
[bright music]

3283
02:24:42,683 --> 02:24:44,143
Is there somebody at the door?

3284
02:24:44,226 --> 02:24:45,936
Hold on, guys.

3285
02:24:46,020 --> 02:24:49,732
[bright music]

3286
02:24:49,815 --> 02:24:50,858
Those darn kids.

3287
02:24:50,941 --> 02:24:52,610
All right, let's get it, boys.

3288
02:24:52,693 --> 02:24:53,736
[bright music]

3289
02:24:53,819 --> 02:24:55,654
Oh, Kirk Cousins.

3290
02:24:55,738 --> 02:24:56,781
And even these days,

3291
02:24:56,864 --> 02:24:59,784
what we're seeing is the sports manufacturer,

3292
02:24:59,867 --> 02:25:03,496
they will send cards to the athletes to be signed.

3293
02:25:03,579 --> 02:25:06,082
But oftentimes what we're seeing is

3294
02:25:06,165 --> 02:25:09,377
very different signatures
coming back from the athletes,

3295
02:25:09,460 --> 02:25:11,671
so many people assume maybe an agent,

3296
02:25:11,754 --> 02:25:14,256
or maybe a girlfriend, or maybe a friend

3297
02:25:14,340 --> 02:25:18,719
of that athlete actually signs these cards.

3298
02:25:18,803 --> 02:25:21,347
And so I don't trust autographs

3299
02:25:21,430 --> 02:25:25,476
that I don't see the athlete sit in front of me and sign.

3300
02:25:25,559 --> 02:25:28,020
From a grading perspective, it's all subjective.

3301
02:25:28,104 --> 02:25:31,232
It... one mint 9 might not look like

3302
02:25:31,315 --> 02:25:34,026
another mint 9 card, and that's just...

3303
02:25:34,110 --> 02:25:35,528
how the industry's always been,

3304
02:25:35,611 --> 02:25:39,073
and when it's done by humans, there is some human error.

3305
02:25:39,156 --> 02:25:40,408
I think some of the bigger companies

3306
02:25:40,491 --> 02:25:42,034
try to keep it a little more private.

3307
02:25:42,118 --> 02:25:45,496
PSA, JSA, SGC, all of these grading and authentication

3308
02:25:45,579 --> 02:25:49,250
companies all are in a way, the same.

3309
02:25:49,333 --> 02:25:51,002
Um, it all is subjective.

3310
02:25:51,085 --> 02:25:52,545
That's the bottom line with this stuff.

3311
02:25:52,628 --> 02:25:54,296
It all is extremely subjective.

3312
02:25:54,380 --> 02:25:56,465
It's not objective by any means.

3313
02:25:56,549 --> 02:25:58,426
You could get... I've... I've had... personally

3314
02:25:58,509 --> 02:26:01,220
had cases where I've had a card come back a 6,

3315
02:26:01,303 --> 02:26:02,638
sent it back to the same company,

3316
02:26:02,722 --> 02:26:03,931
and gotten an 8.5.

3317
02:26:04,015 --> 02:26:05,433
One'll be graded a 7,

3318
02:26:05,516 --> 02:26:08,060
and it looks exactly like the one that's a 9.

3319
02:26:08,144 --> 02:26:09,937
'Cause you have different graders.

3320
02:26:10,021 --> 02:26:11,230
Different times of the day,

3321
02:26:11,313 --> 02:26:12,481
different times of the week.

3322
02:26:12,565 --> 02:26:14,734
My biggest concern with it is, is that there's

3323
02:26:14,817 --> 02:26:17,653
no real regulation to it.

3324
02:26:17,737 --> 02:26:19,447
A third party, so to speak,

3325
02:26:19,530 --> 02:26:20,865
to oversee what they're doing,

3326
02:26:20,948 --> 02:26:22,408
so that they can't just basically

3327
02:26:22,491 --> 02:26:23,451
do what they want.

3328
02:26:23,534 --> 02:26:27,371
You know, these organizations that are in place to...

3329
02:26:27,455 --> 02:26:29,832
authenticate the signatures,

3330
02:26:29,915 --> 02:26:33,711
as Cliff told us, one of those organizations,

3331
02:26:33,794 --> 02:26:35,588
the authentication that they use

3332
02:26:35,671 --> 02:26:36,964
are his signatures.

3333
02:26:37,048 --> 02:26:39,842
And so when you think of what that means,

3334
02:26:39,925 --> 02:26:41,844
that's just... absolutely devastating

3335
02:26:41,927 --> 02:26:42,845
to the industry.

3336
02:26:42,928 --> 02:26:44,055
But grading's an interesting thing,

3337
02:26:44,138 --> 02:26:46,599
that, you know, some people are all in on it.

3338
02:26:46,682 --> 02:26:48,601
But then you get collectors from, you know,

3339
02:26:48,684 --> 02:26:50,353
the vintage guys who...

3340
02:26:50,436 --> 02:26:52,229
Grew up collecting in the '60s, '70s, '80s,

3341
02:26:52,313 --> 02:26:54,398
they're like, why do I need a company?

3342
02:26:54,482 --> 02:26:56,025
Why do I need to pay a company to tell me

3343
02:26:56,108 --> 02:26:57,818
that this card is worth what it is?

3344
02:26:57,902 --> 02:26:59,945
Fraud is so successful in this hobby

3345
02:27:00,029 --> 02:27:02,239
because people don't mind being defrauded,

3346
02:27:02,323 --> 02:27:04,283
and they're so happy just to get the cards.

3347
02:27:04,367 --> 02:27:06,619
They just look past all the red flags.

3348
02:27:08,371 --> 02:27:10,206
The kids out there that are oblivious

3349
02:27:10,289 --> 02:27:12,249
to what the industry still is,

3350
02:27:12,333 --> 02:27:14,460
they're better off left being oblivious,

3351
02:27:14,543 --> 02:27:17,922
and believing that they can actually

3352
02:27:18,005 --> 02:27:20,758
get pieces of these players, you know?

3353
02:27:20,841 --> 02:27:23,719
The-the game is so much about money...

3354
02:27:26,597 --> 02:27:29,183
and about these companies, card companies,

3355
02:27:29,266 --> 02:27:31,811
sportscard companies, authentication companies,

3356
02:27:31,894 --> 02:27:35,523
that they've made it to where... you know,

3357
02:27:35,606 --> 02:27:37,858
pieces of the game, an autograph,

3358
02:27:37,942 --> 02:27:40,611
are unattainable for a lot of people.

3359
02:27:40,695 --> 02:27:42,697
Also the kids that are oblivious...

3360
02:27:42,780 --> 02:27:44,782
to what the industry is,

3361
02:27:44,865 --> 02:27:47,576
I say, let them be oblivious.

3362
02:27:55,292 --> 02:27:56,919
[calm music]

3363
02:28:01,507 --> 02:28:03,175
It brings me back to my childhood,

3364
02:28:03,259 --> 02:28:06,012
when life was happy and easy, and it was a...

3365
02:28:06,095 --> 02:28:08,139
A pure love.

3366
02:28:09,223 --> 02:28:12,018
I can only see it growing.

3367
02:28:12,101 --> 02:28:13,811
Manufacturers, they're trying to

3368
02:28:13,894 --> 02:28:15,604
please the collector.

3369
02:28:15,688 --> 02:28:16,856
Trying to engage the collector

3370
02:28:16,939 --> 02:28:19,233
with the collector experience. Making it better.

3371
02:28:19,316 --> 02:28:21,068
Bringing them closer to the athletes.

3372
02:28:21,152 --> 02:28:23,320
Making better product.

3373
02:28:23,404 --> 02:28:27,533
[pensive music]

3374
02:28:27,616 --> 02:28:29,702
I see it more evolving.

3375
02:28:29,785 --> 02:28:32,538
I do see more of a... a digital aspect to it.

3376
02:28:32,621 --> 02:28:36,917
[pensive music]

3377
02:28:37,001 --> 02:28:38,377
But I think it does still come down to

3378
02:28:38,461 --> 02:28:40,463
having a tangible thing to hold onto,

3379
02:28:40,546 --> 02:28:42,798
and something that you can display in your house.

3380
02:28:45,343 --> 02:28:47,219
I know there's like, vaults and things

3381
02:28:47,303 --> 02:28:48,846
now for cards and memorabilia.

3382
02:28:48,929 --> 02:28:51,182
So I could see in, like, 20 years, a lot of people

3383
02:28:51,265 --> 02:28:53,934
have a net worth, if you will,

3384
02:28:54,018 --> 02:28:56,354
of cards, but they're... you know, locked away

3385
02:28:56,437 --> 02:28:58,064
somewhere where they can just, oh,

3386
02:28:58,147 --> 02:28:59,690
send it to this guy, and somebody else

3387
02:28:59,774 --> 02:29:00,941
will do the shipping.

3388
02:29:01,025 --> 02:29:04,278
But the tangible aspect of having a card,

3389
02:29:04,362 --> 02:29:06,822
I don't think that that will ever go away.

3390
02:29:06,906 --> 02:29:09,658
I just think, if anything, the hobby will be able

3391
02:29:09,742 --> 02:29:12,036
to add some sort of tokenization to it.

3392
02:29:12,119 --> 02:29:13,788
I mean, come on, let's think about it.

3393
02:29:13,871 --> 02:29:15,539
You can put your card in a vault now.

3394
02:29:15,623 --> 02:29:17,792
You can go ahead and sell
your... give your card to somebody

3395
02:29:17,875 --> 02:29:20,961
and they can introduce it for fractional sharing.

3396
02:29:21,045 --> 02:29:25,049
So, I think that it'll be incorporated in

3397
02:29:25,132 --> 02:29:28,177
many other ways, as far as a form

3398
02:29:28,260 --> 02:29:30,096
of digital currency.

3399
02:29:30,179 --> 02:29:32,848
The hobby, like many markets,

3400
02:29:32,932 --> 02:29:35,434
kind of goes through, like, a boom and bust cycle.

3401
02:29:35,518 --> 02:29:38,896
You'll have Fanatics, which is a very wealthy

3402
02:29:38,979 --> 02:29:42,066
and well-known brand inside
the sports licensing game,

3403
02:29:42,149 --> 02:29:45,945
but in terms of leadership,
and in terms of an industry

3404
02:29:46,028 --> 02:29:48,114
and a business standpoint,
I actually think the hobby's

3405
02:29:48,197 --> 02:29:50,324
gonna be in a very good place

3406
02:29:50,408 --> 02:29:52,243
in the next coming years.

3407
02:29:52,326 --> 02:29:53,828
It's gonna be better-funded,

3408
02:29:53,911 --> 02:29:55,955
and it's gonna have far better leadership

3409
02:29:56,038 --> 02:29:58,833
than it's had over the past couple of years.

3410
02:29:58,916 --> 02:30:02,211
I think 10, 20 years, I think vintage...

3411
02:30:02,294 --> 02:30:04,046
is still gonna be king.

3412
02:30:04,130 --> 02:30:08,050
I hope we're not in a second junk wax era,

3413
02:30:08,134 --> 02:30:10,970
at this point, because you see
how much product's going out,

3414
02:30:11,053 --> 02:30:13,264
you see how much product's sitting at Wal-Mart,

3415
02:30:13,347 --> 02:30:15,016
how much retail sitting at...

3416
02:30:15,099 --> 02:30:16,851
Target.

3417
02:30:19,186 --> 02:30:21,772
I see it being a lot bigger than it is now.

3418
02:30:21,856 --> 02:30:24,358
I think you're gonna see a lot more collectible cards

3419
02:30:24,442 --> 02:30:26,402
given out at games, maybe.

3420
02:30:26,485 --> 02:30:28,195
And sporting events where you can go to

3421
02:30:28,279 --> 02:30:29,697
a sporting event and get your team's

3422
02:30:29,780 --> 02:30:31,699
pack of cards or whatever at that event,

3423
02:30:31,782 --> 02:30:33,701
as a giveaway, or whatever it might be.

3424
02:30:33,784 --> 02:30:35,286
I grew up as a collector,

3425
02:30:35,369 --> 02:30:37,705
as you can see around my office here,

3426
02:30:37,788 --> 02:30:39,248
uh, I still collect.

3427
02:30:39,331 --> 02:30:41,834
And-and I love this stuff, and I've always felt that

3428
02:30:41,917 --> 02:30:44,128
it was undervalued, so the fact that

3429
02:30:44,211 --> 02:30:46,255
these pieces are starting to be seen

3430
02:30:46,339 --> 02:30:48,007
as alternative investments,

3431
02:30:48,090 --> 02:30:50,509
and more people are joining this market

3432
02:30:50,593 --> 02:30:52,762
every year, uh, it's a great thing.

3433
02:30:52,845 --> 02:30:54,847
We can tell the history of our nation,

3434
02:30:54,930 --> 02:30:55,973
and the history of our people

3435
02:30:56,057 --> 02:30:58,976
through the objects, these
collectibles that we sell.

3436
02:30:59,060 --> 02:31:03,689
[pensive music]

3437
02:31:20,956 --> 02:31:23,668
I mean, do you think you've still got the skill?

3438
02:31:23,751 --> 02:31:26,003
Oh, shit, do I still got the skill?

3439
02:31:26,087 --> 02:31:28,214
300 autographs off the top of my head right now.

3440
02:31:28,297 --> 02:31:29,590
Try me.

3441
02:31:29,674 --> 02:31:32,385
I'm... I'm a...

3442
02:31:32,468 --> 02:31:33,969
I would never call it a talent.

3443
02:31:34,053 --> 02:31:37,264
In the Sports Illustrated
article I called it a curse.

3444
02:31:37,348 --> 02:31:39,892
But I'm one of the best, flat out.

3445
02:31:39,975 --> 02:31:44,605
[calm music]

3446
02:32:10,089 --> 02:32:13,718
[upbeat music]

3447
02:32:40,161 --> 02:32:44,790
[upbeat music]

3448
02:33:10,274 --> 02:33:14,904
[upbeat music]

3449
02:33:40,096 --> 02:33:44,725
[upbeat music]

3450
02:34:10,209 --> 02:34:14,839
[upbeat music]

3451
02:34:40,239 --> 02:34:44,869
[upbeat music]

3452
02:35:10,186 --> 02:35:14,815
[upbeat music]

3453
02:35:40,257 --> 02:35:44,887
[upbeat music]