1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.LT 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.LT 3 00:00:48,900 --> 00:00:55,400 THIS FILM HAS BEEN MADE USING CLAUDE LANZMANN'S UNUSED FOOTAGE 4 00:00:55,610 --> 00:01:00,030 FROM HIS HOLOCAUST DOCUMENTARY ENTITLED SHOAH. 5 00:01:01,990 --> 00:01:11,610 THE NARRATION IS A MIX OF LANZMANN'S MEMOIRS AND PERSONAL WRITINGS. 6 00:01:12,490 --> 00:01:13,700 Take 99! 7 00:01:43,900 --> 00:01:44,740 One hundred. 8 00:02:24,900 --> 00:02:26,900 Making Shoah 9 00:02:27,110 --> 00:02:29,820 was a long and hard-fought battle. 10 00:02:34,820 --> 00:02:37,950 I wanted to make a film, but was filled with emptiness. 11 00:02:43,570 --> 00:02:45,780 I wanted it to be about death 12 00:02:46,780 --> 00:02:48,570 in the most extreme sense. 13 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,650 I'd fall into futile despair some nights, 14 00:02:57,860 --> 00:02:59,650 only wanting to give up, 15 00:03:04,030 --> 00:03:05,320 but I kept working, 16 00:03:06,070 --> 00:03:07,570 12 long years 17 00:03:08,150 --> 00:03:09,990 staring unflinchingly 18 00:03:10,740 --> 00:03:12,320 into the black sun of the Holocaust. 19 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,030 The film project started here in Israel 20 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:38,740 in 1973. 21 00:03:41,860 --> 00:03:44,030 It wasn't my idea to make this film. 22 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:45,780 It was the furthest thing from my mind. 23 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,820 I was alive during the Holocaust. 24 00:03:57,030 --> 00:03:58,570 It could have claimed me, 25 00:04:00,150 --> 00:04:01,900 but I knew nothing about it, honestly, 26 00:04:03,570 --> 00:04:04,820 absolutely nothing, 27 00:04:05,860 --> 00:04:08,610 only that an abstract number of people were victim to it. 28 00:04:09,530 --> 00:04:11,820 Six million of us were murdered. 29 00:04:19,570 --> 00:04:21,030 Something very strong, 30 00:04:21,610 --> 00:04:23,200 even aggressive, within me 31 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,740 moved me to take on the film. 32 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:29,240 I had no idea how to go about it. 33 00:04:31,490 --> 00:04:32,780 Looking back on it now, 34 00:04:33,780 --> 00:04:36,200 parts of my process strike me as utterly strange, 35 00:04:36,860 --> 00:04:38,280 incomprehensible. 36 00:04:51,490 --> 00:04:53,820 In Israel, I heard about a man called Simon Srebnik. 37 00:04:55,450 --> 00:04:56,860 Srebnik was the youngest 38 00:04:57,070 --> 00:04:59,360 of the only two people to survive Chelmno, Poland, 39 00:04:59,990 --> 00:05:02,740 where 400,000 Jews were killed in mobile gas vans. 40 00:05:05,860 --> 00:05:08,780 At the camp, prisoners were forced to empty the vans of the dead 41 00:05:08,990 --> 00:05:11,570 and toss their remains into mass incineration pits. 42 00:05:15,860 --> 00:05:17,610 Simon Srebnik was 13 and a half 43 00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:20,860 when a firing squad put a bullet in his neck. 44 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:24,650 Miraculously, 45 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,200 the bullet missed his major arteries. 46 00:05:30,650 --> 00:05:33,490 We spoke, or at least tried to speak about it, 47 00:05:34,570 --> 00:05:37,200 but I grasped almost nothing of what he described. 48 00:05:38,990 --> 00:05:40,650 The little I could understand 49 00:05:40,860 --> 00:05:43,030 were his bits of memories obscured by fear. 50 00:05:47,990 --> 00:05:49,990 He struck me as still the same scared child 51 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:51,820 he must have been back then. 52 00:05:58,070 --> 00:06:00,200 I just understood he used to sing songs for SS guards 53 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,780 while rowing them down a river in a skiff. 54 00:06:05,150 --> 00:06:08,110 I instantly asked him to sing me what he sang them. 55 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,490 There's a little, white house 56 00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:16,110 I still dream about 57 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:20,650 The windows 58 00:06:20,860 --> 00:06:23,990 of that little house 59 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,200 shine strangely 60 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,650 in the sun 61 00:06:30,860 --> 00:06:33,530 like a pair of eyes 62 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:36,610 full of tears 63 00:06:36,820 --> 00:06:38,950 I couldn't give up on Srebnik 64 00:06:39,150 --> 00:06:41,110 or leave him to one side. 65 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:47,200 I had work to do in order to be able to understand him. 66 00:06:54,610 --> 00:06:56,610 I needed time to pin down what my film was about. 67 00:06:58,990 --> 00:07:02,700 For two years, I read Primo Levi, Antelme, Rousset 68 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:04,110 and a hundred other works. 69 00:07:07,780 --> 00:07:10,450 Book after book, month after month, 70 00:07:10,650 --> 00:07:12,610 my film rose from the ashes 71 00:07:12,820 --> 00:07:14,450 of my trials and errors. 72 00:07:16,700 --> 00:07:18,530 I had no idea where I was going. 73 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,110 Burlington Hilberg, take nine. 74 00:07:27,570 --> 00:07:30,990 I think that the reason why your book is a master book 75 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,320 is you succeed to show, really, 76 00:07:33,530 --> 00:07:35,150 the inside, the implications 77 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,650 how the destruction of the Jews 78 00:07:38,570 --> 00:07:39,990 has been possible. 79 00:07:43,700 --> 00:07:47,820 My breakthrough was entirely intellectual. 80 00:07:48,570 --> 00:07:52,990 I had this particular Rosetta Stone for quite a while. 81 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:54,700 Rosetta Stone? 82 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:57,740 And I studied it, 83 00:07:58,070 --> 00:08:02,400 still not knowing what to make of some items of information in it. 84 00:08:02,610 --> 00:08:06,780 How do you know that "PKR" means the death train? 85 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:09,360 Well, here again, of course, 86 00:08:10,490 --> 00:08:15,200 the only way we know this kind of information for sure is that... 87 00:08:16,570 --> 00:08:19,240 we know that the destination is Treblinka 88 00:08:19,860 --> 00:08:22,400 and that the train does not go further, 89 00:08:22,610 --> 00:08:25,740 so when we consider that an entire train is going to Treblinka 90 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:28,740 and there are after all several or rather many of them, 91 00:08:29,570 --> 00:08:32,360 then we say to ourselves, 92 00:08:32,570 --> 00:08:37,200 this was not a train carrying German soldiers on furlough. 93 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,400 This was not a train carrying 94 00:08:39,610 --> 00:08:41,700 Polish workers to a labour camp. 95 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:44,150 This was a train carrying people 96 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,650 to a particular place, 97 00:08:46,860 --> 00:08:52,150 the object of which overwhelmingly, primarily, in 99% of all cases was 98 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:53,400 death. 99 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,570 I spent hours with survivors, 100 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:17,860 who spoke to me about raids, trains, extreme thirst, 101 00:09:18,070 --> 00:09:20,360 being beaten, arriving to the camps and so on. 102 00:09:22,990 --> 00:09:24,900 Every account that I recorded, 103 00:09:25,110 --> 00:09:26,700 even the most tragic, 104 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:29,570 failed to touch on the heart of the issue. 105 00:09:30,450 --> 00:09:31,990 The central piece was missing: 106 00:09:32,990 --> 00:09:34,740 dying in the gas chambers. 107 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:36,990 No-one survived them. 108 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,820 I'm haunted by what victims suffered in their final moments 109 00:09:53,450 --> 00:09:55,320 right before they died. 110 00:09:57,570 --> 00:10:00,200 Is there meaning in standing nude in sub-zero temperatures 111 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,780 waiting your turn to walk into a gas chamber at Sobibor or Treblinka? 112 00:10:11,530 --> 00:10:13,280 Questions like that obsessed me, 113 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:15,490 tormented me. 114 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:34,990 I'd heard about Abraham Bomba 115 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,530 while doing research in Israel. 116 00:10:39,070 --> 00:10:41,360 I learned he'd cut the hair of Jewish women 117 00:10:41,570 --> 00:10:43,900 inside the gas chambers at Treblinka. 118 00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:48,280 I only knew that Bomba lived in New York City 119 00:10:48,490 --> 00:10:50,200 where he was still working as a hairdresser. 120 00:10:50,990 --> 00:10:52,320 Do you know the town of Sea Gate? 121 00:10:52,650 --> 00:10:54,150 - Of? - Sea Gate. 122 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,820 - It's in Brooklyn, in Brooklyn. - Coney Island. 123 00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:59,490 Not in Europe. Seagate. 124 00:11:00,530 --> 00:11:02,610 It's a neighbourhood in Coney Island. 125 00:11:02,820 --> 00:11:04,200 A community. 126 00:11:11,650 --> 00:11:13,110 I wandered round 127 00:11:13,860 --> 00:11:15,610 and around for hours. 128 00:11:18,570 --> 00:11:19,740 Bomba seemed key to me. 129 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,740 I wound up meeting an old Jewish cobbler who'd known him. 130 00:11:33,950 --> 00:11:36,450 The Bomba family had moved 20 years before. 131 00:11:42,070 --> 00:11:43,110 Distraught, 132 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:46,070 I leafed in vain through every NYC phone book, 133 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,150 residential and professional. 134 00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:52,110 Because Bomba was a barber, 135 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,240 I went asking around hairdressers'. 136 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:57,780 At the 15th shop I visited, 137 00:11:57,990 --> 00:12:00,780 a woman with her hair full of rollers and pins 138 00:12:00,990 --> 00:12:02,280 gave me an address. 139 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:04,610 I finally got a hold of him 140 00:12:04,950 --> 00:12:07,400 and he must have talked to me for 48 hours 141 00:12:07,610 --> 00:12:09,900 as if he'd never spoken to anyone in his life. 142 00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:15,740 After they were gassed, 143 00:12:16,450 --> 00:12:18,990 the spectacle already started 144 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:20,780 and that did... 145 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,240 They worked the people from the other places, 146 00:12:24,450 --> 00:12:26,900 from the gas chamber 147 00:12:27,110 --> 00:12:30,450 taking out already those... all those people 148 00:12:30,650 --> 00:12:33,900 clung one to another 149 00:12:34,110 --> 00:12:36,820 because even after their death 150 00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:39,780 they clung to one another to have 151 00:12:39,990 --> 00:12:42,320 together, close to one another, 152 00:12:42,530 --> 00:12:45,070 not to be apart from each other 153 00:12:45,650 --> 00:12:49,990 in lifetime and also in their death 154 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,610 and that's the way they took them out from the gas chamber and to... 155 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,490 the places where they put them. 156 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:03,450 So, far for a while, 157 00:13:04,530 --> 00:13:06,740 they dig big thing 158 00:13:06,950 --> 00:13:08,320 and they put them over there, 159 00:13:08,530 --> 00:13:10,450 but that was not the end. 160 00:13:10,650 --> 00:13:13,570 After that, they dig them out 161 00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:17,110 and they put on top each other, body by body 162 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:19,280 and they burn them like a... 163 00:13:20,150 --> 00:13:21,860 It was then clear to me 164 00:13:22,070 --> 00:13:24,280 that the Jewish subjects of my film 165 00:13:24,490 --> 00:13:26,700 would be Jewish prisoners forced into labour, 166 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:28,360 either as Arbeitsjuden 167 00:13:28,570 --> 00:13:30,400 or members of the Sonderkommando, 168 00:13:30,610 --> 00:13:31,860 or special labour units. 169 00:13:35,740 --> 00:13:37,700 These men, like Bomba, 170 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:41,360 who were present in the final moments of the victims' lives, 171 00:13:41,570 --> 00:13:43,200 had been, apart from the murderers, 172 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,150 the only witnesses to Jews 173 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,280 dying in the gas chambers. 174 00:13:50,740 --> 00:13:52,740 Rudolf Vrba, take 100. 175 00:13:52,950 --> 00:13:56,740 What were your feelings when you were waiting for these trains 176 00:13:57,070 --> 00:14:01,200 and knowing that most of the people who would be in would be 177 00:14:02,030 --> 00:14:05,360 immediately sent to the gas? 178 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:09,610 But describe as you wish. 179 00:14:13,070 --> 00:14:15,400 It is very difficult 180 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,240 to describe feelings, 181 00:14:23,700 --> 00:14:27,200 but I have seen it so many times that it became a routine. 182 00:14:28,570 --> 00:14:32,240 I wouldn't think that 183 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,110 I have been in any way particularly moved or... 184 00:14:40,070 --> 00:14:42,820 It was not time for feelings. 185 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,360 You remember the arrival of Greek Jews or transport from Greece? 186 00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:50,490 I remember many because in the time when I was on the ramp 187 00:14:50,700 --> 00:14:53,700 at least 30 to 40,000 people came from Saloniki. 188 00:14:55,650 --> 00:14:57,950 And they came from a very long journey 189 00:14:58,150 --> 00:15:02,400 because from Saloniki to Auschwitz or from Athens to Auschwitz 190 00:15:02,610 --> 00:15:04,900 it was nine days and nights. 191 00:15:13,820 --> 00:15:16,740 The Arbeitsjuden and Sonderkommando 192 00:15:16,950 --> 00:15:18,200 had all been young men, 193 00:15:19,570 --> 00:15:22,110 ages ranging from 18 to 25 years old. 194 00:15:27,820 --> 00:15:30,570 They hailed from Poland, Hungary and Greece. 195 00:15:30,780 --> 00:15:32,030 They were handpicked, 196 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,570 then shaved, tattooed, whipped and beaten. 197 00:15:35,780 --> 00:15:38,570 They'd be conducted to the door of Crematorium 5 198 00:15:39,950 --> 00:15:42,280 where they suddenly saw everything. 199 00:15:44,030 --> 00:15:46,490 The mass graves, the flames, 200 00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:50,240 the tangle of discoloured bodies 201 00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:53,820 that came tumbling out when the chamber doors were opened. 202 00:16:04,610 --> 00:16:08,450 There's people from Saloniki who are very different in many ways. 203 00:16:08,650 --> 00:16:11,320 They are more colourful, already by dress. 204 00:16:13,450 --> 00:16:16,610 They had a very philosophical approach to life. 205 00:16:16,820 --> 00:16:19,320 A touch of Orient was in them. 206 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:23,740 Those people were more mild mannered, 207 00:16:23,950 --> 00:16:25,610 less prepared for toughness. 208 00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:33,950 Some Jews hailing from the sunny shores of the Ionian, 209 00:16:34,150 --> 00:16:35,150 gentle people, 210 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,700 "tender Jews", as Albert Cohen described them, 211 00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:39,200 couldn't bear it all. 212 00:16:40,860 --> 00:16:44,070 They threw themselves into the infernos with open arms 213 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:45,070 like sea divers. 214 00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:07,320 The day I realised my film would be about death itself, 215 00:17:07,530 --> 00:17:09,650 death and not survival, 216 00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:13,780 the realisation hit me like a great epiphany 217 00:17:13,990 --> 00:17:15,990 and I knew I'd be able to see it through. 218 00:17:17,110 --> 00:17:18,820 Nothing would dissuade me. 219 00:17:42,530 --> 00:17:44,400 At times, I ran out of money 220 00:17:44,990 --> 00:17:47,360 and feared I wouldn't be able to finish the film. 221 00:17:49,490 --> 00:17:52,530 People organised fundraisers for me in the US. 222 00:17:54,650 --> 00:17:57,110 Ambassador Robert Borden Reams? 223 00:18:18,860 --> 00:18:20,450 They were all a total failure, 224 00:18:22,150 --> 00:18:23,950 despite my sincere appeals explaining 225 00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:26,490 why I thought the movie deserved to be made. 226 00:18:27,650 --> 00:18:29,320 This is the fundraising department 227 00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:31,150 of the American Jewish Committee. 228 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:33,400 I showed them everything I'd learned so far 229 00:18:33,610 --> 00:18:35,200 and the work I'd already carried out. 230 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,070 Have they gone upstairs to the library? 231 00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:43,360 I would like to welcome first of all Mr Lanzmann from Paris and his film 232 00:18:43,570 --> 00:18:45,700 crew. I guess everybody is aware of by now what's going. 233 00:18:46,650 --> 00:18:48,570 After I'd spoken, 234 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:51,280 I'd field questions - always the same ones. 235 00:18:52,030 --> 00:18:54,030 Mr Lanzmann, what is your message? 236 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:56,150 Two-one-four. 237 00:18:56,780 --> 00:18:58,780 I didn't know what Shoah's message was. 238 00:18:58,990 --> 00:19:00,400 Two-one-four. 239 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:04,070 I still don't know what it is. 240 00:19:07,070 --> 00:19:08,530 Had I said, 241 00:19:08,740 --> 00:19:11,280 "My message is, Never again", or perhaps 242 00:19:11,490 --> 00:19:13,110 "Love one another", 243 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,450 the pocketbooks would have fallen open, 244 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,070 but I was no good at fundraising. 245 00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:26,740 Not one American dollar went to financing Shoah. 246 00:19:29,650 --> 00:19:32,110 Individual donors kept me afloat 247 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,650 in the dreadful stretches of hard living 248 00:19:34,860 --> 00:19:37,900 when the immensity of the project towered over me. 249 00:19:46,490 --> 00:19:49,490 My research took me from one continent to the next. 250 00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:52,780 I felt like I was on a police manhunt, 251 00:19:53,490 --> 00:19:55,780 a never-ending chase. 252 00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:11,740 I knew early on that my film would have to feature 253 00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:13,150 the perpetrators too. 254 00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:17,900 From my reading, I'd composed 255 00:20:18,110 --> 00:20:20,240 a list of around one hundred names 256 00:20:20,450 --> 00:20:23,150 of Nazi war criminals and bureaucrats alike 257 00:20:23,360 --> 00:20:25,900 who struck me as key to what I was after. 258 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,360 At the outset, 259 00:20:30,570 --> 00:20:34,240 I was embarrassingly naive, inexperienced and honest, 260 00:20:34,450 --> 00:20:36,610 calling people up, giving them my name 261 00:20:36,820 --> 00:20:38,360 and the reason I was calling, 262 00:20:39,610 --> 00:20:42,700 to make a movie about the extermination of the Jews. 263 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,320 I didn't often get the chance to say any more. 264 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,280 so, after many failures, 265 00:21:00,490 --> 00:21:01,860 so I decided to stop calling 266 00:21:02,740 --> 00:21:05,990 and to just turn up at the homes of the people I was looking for 267 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,240 with my trusted German assistant, Corinna Coulmas, 268 00:21:09,450 --> 00:21:11,820 a brilliant and brave woman. 269 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:20,200 So, 270 00:21:20,820 --> 00:21:22,990 what do we have on... 271 00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:24,700 Laabs? 272 00:21:25,570 --> 00:21:28,030 An excerpt from an indictment 273 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,240 from the Chelmno war-crime trials. 274 00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:34,650 Gustav Laabs, gas-van driver 275 00:21:34,860 --> 00:21:37,950 during both periods of extermination at Chelmno. 276 00:21:38,860 --> 00:21:41,240 When a lorry arrived to the manor building, 277 00:21:41,450 --> 00:21:43,280 the accused drove the gas van 278 00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:45,110 up a wooden ramp. 279 00:21:45,860 --> 00:21:47,650 He'd wait for victims 280 00:21:48,490 --> 00:21:51,530 to be loaded into the van and for the doors to close. 281 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:53,240 Then, 282 00:21:53,450 --> 00:21:56,530 he'd attach a hose from the fixed exhaust pipe 283 00:21:56,740 --> 00:22:00,110 into the interior of the van. 284 00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:03,530 He then would start the engine, 285 00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:06,200 put his foot on the accelerator 286 00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:09,820 and let the engine run for 10 to 15 minutes. 287 00:22:10,780 --> 00:22:12,780 Once the shouts and moans 288 00:22:13,490 --> 00:22:14,700 and banging 289 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:16,990 quieted down within the van 290 00:22:17,950 --> 00:22:21,150 and all within had been suffocated or had fainted, 291 00:22:22,650 --> 00:22:24,490 he'd drive the van 292 00:22:25,150 --> 00:22:28,820 to Waltlager, a wooded area 293 00:22:29,030 --> 00:22:31,650 seven kilometres from the village of Chelmno, 294 00:22:31,860 --> 00:22:33,900 where the bodies were unloaded 295 00:22:34,110 --> 00:22:36,280 and either buried or incinerated. 296 00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:10,320 He won't open the door. 297 00:23:14,740 --> 00:23:17,860 His neighbours tipped him off, 298 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:20,490 telling him not to open. 299 00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:23,740 Are you allowed to film people 300 00:23:23,950 --> 00:23:27,400 without asking their permission? 301 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,700 Film people who don't wish to be filmed? 302 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:34,200 You can't film this house or anything else for that matter. 303 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,860 But we rang the bell. 304 00:23:40,030 --> 00:23:42,990 - You did what? - We rang the bell. 305 00:23:44,650 --> 00:23:47,740 You can't have this camera on right now. 306 00:23:50,150 --> 00:23:52,650 We don't care if you want to talk to Mr Laabs. 307 00:23:52,860 --> 00:23:55,700 We just want to talk to him. Do you know him? 308 00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:57,610 Sure, he's our neighbour. 309 00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:00,950 - Is he a kind man? - Of course he is. 310 00:24:01,530 --> 00:24:04,900 Do you know anything about his life? 311 00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:06,150 - No. - No? 312 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:08,150 You don't know what he was involved in? 313 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:10,400 - You have no idea? - No. 314 00:24:10,990 --> 00:24:13,070 Hold on. 315 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,820 Sir, do you know what a gas van is? 316 00:24:18,530 --> 00:24:19,280 No. 317 00:24:19,490 --> 00:24:22,030 You've never heard of that? 318 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:22,990 No. 319 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,490 He operated them during the war. 320 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:27,950 - How is that our business? - Gas vans. 321 00:24:28,150 --> 00:24:31,400 - He killed 200,000 Jews. - What are you on about? 322 00:24:31,610 --> 00:24:33,570 - Where are you from? - Did you know that? 323 00:24:33,780 --> 00:24:35,200 French television? 324 00:24:35,530 --> 00:24:37,650 We don't care about what you have to say. 325 00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:39,610 - Fine. - People deserve privacy. 326 00:24:39,820 --> 00:24:42,530 I only care about what he does as my neighbour. 327 00:24:42,740 --> 00:24:46,860 Anything beyond that is none of my concern. 328 00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:49,570 Why don't you carry on your way? 329 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:51,320 That's just what we'll do. 330 00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:56,030 Everyone's in on it. 331 00:25:01,110 --> 00:25:02,150 To Germans, 332 00:25:02,360 --> 00:25:05,030 my last name was a giveaway that I was Jewish 333 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:07,450 and it only made things harder. 334 00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:12,280 I needed to start using an alias. 335 00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:15,780 I won't reveal how 336 00:25:16,490 --> 00:25:18,030 because I promised not to say, 337 00:25:18,860 --> 00:25:20,820 but I managed to get a fake passport 338 00:25:21,030 --> 00:25:23,740 that I swore to get rid of after filming was over. 339 00:25:24,950 --> 00:25:28,400 I started going by Claude-Marie Sorel. 340 00:25:30,860 --> 00:25:34,490 I worked for a phony modern history research institute. 341 00:25:35,150 --> 00:25:38,240 I gave myself the fictitious title of Doctor of History. 342 00:25:39,450 --> 00:25:42,650 Honesty and transparency with former Nazis 343 00:25:42,860 --> 00:25:45,320 had proven utterly futile. 344 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,700 I had to learn how to lie to the liars. 345 00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:49,700 So... 346 00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:57,740 Take off your... 347 00:25:58,860 --> 00:25:59,900 Do try 348 00:26:00,110 --> 00:26:01,990 and not go too tight like last time, 349 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:06,900 though I'm not sure if it was tight 350 00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:10,950 or I was just nervous. 351 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:18,450 Every time 352 00:26:18,650 --> 00:26:20,610 I took a breath, it felt 353 00:26:21,530 --> 00:26:22,820 like I was restricted. 354 00:26:23,030 --> 00:26:24,950 You're just aware that it's there, 355 00:26:25,150 --> 00:26:26,400 like it was going to break. 356 00:26:26,990 --> 00:26:29,820 - You just feel it's there. - Yeah, but still... 357 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:34,610 I'd rather it were a gun. 358 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:48,150 That all right? 359 00:26:51,780 --> 00:26:52,990 Maybe a little tighter. 360 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,280 I'm afraid it will fall like the other day. 361 00:26:56,820 --> 00:26:57,450 It fell? 362 00:26:57,650 --> 00:26:59,860 No, but it felt like it was going to. 363 00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:08,070 Hold on. 364 00:27:24,900 --> 00:27:25,900 The Paluche 365 00:27:26,110 --> 00:27:29,150 was a small, handheld, cylindrical camera that changed everything. 366 00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,860 You could use it without looking through the viewfinder. 367 00:27:35,860 --> 00:27:37,200 It didn't record on film, 368 00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:40,610 but transmitted the images to a small van nearby. 369 00:27:41,740 --> 00:27:42,780 The little miracle 370 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:46,150 was going to drastically change how I'd film in Germany. 371 00:27:46,360 --> 00:27:47,030 There we are. 372 00:27:48,030 --> 00:27:51,780 How has your heart been? 373 00:27:51,990 --> 00:27:53,450 All right? 374 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,320 My heart's been fine lately. 375 00:27:57,530 --> 00:28:01,530 If it starts acting up, I'll let you know. 376 00:28:01,740 --> 00:28:02,570 Sure, sure. 377 00:28:02,780 --> 00:28:06,200 - Then we'll have to stop. - Of course. 378 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:08,490 Everything working? 379 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:09,820 Franz Suchomel 380 00:28:10,030 --> 00:28:13,700 agreed to a voice interview only. 381 00:28:15,570 --> 00:28:18,450 At Treblinka, Suchomel was in charge of a unit 382 00:28:18,650 --> 00:28:20,150 tasked with confiscating money 383 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:23,280 and valuables the victims were hiding on their person. 384 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:27,900 I hid a Paluche in a bag 385 00:28:28,110 --> 00:28:31,400 along with a professional-grade microphone. 386 00:28:31,610 --> 00:28:34,240 My director of photography William Lubtchansky 387 00:28:34,450 --> 00:28:36,320 worked double duty as a sound engineer. 388 00:28:37,070 --> 00:28:38,150 Everything in order? 389 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,150 - Are you ready? - Yes. 390 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,280 - Shall we? - Let's get started. 391 00:28:46,490 --> 00:28:47,650 Great. 392 00:28:48,860 --> 00:28:50,200 Let's do that. 393 00:28:52,820 --> 00:28:57,240 - Let's start with Treblinka. - By all means. 394 00:28:58,860 --> 00:29:02,400 We were brought to the far side of the camp, 395 00:29:02,610 --> 00:29:04,110 around the back, 396 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,240 and when we got up there 397 00:29:06,450 --> 00:29:11,900 the gas-chamber doors had just been opened 398 00:29:12,110 --> 00:29:16,320 and bodies had come tumbling out like potatoes. 399 00:29:16,530 --> 00:29:18,070 Like potatoes? 400 00:29:24,030 --> 00:29:26,030 I wish to remain anonymous telling you this. 401 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,900 Of course, of course. 402 00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:31,490 How do you say, "I gave you my word?" 403 00:29:31,700 --> 00:29:32,740 I gave you my word. 404 00:29:34,070 --> 00:29:36,950 - D*mn! - What's wrong? 405 00:29:39,030 --> 00:29:40,030 So... 406 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:41,700 Sound is out of sync. 407 00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:44,240 Was that a frightening duty to perform? 408 00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:47,360 It was. 409 00:29:48,450 --> 00:29:53,950 People were stripped of their most basic human dignity. 410 00:29:54,530 --> 00:29:58,070 Even their hair was taken from them. 411 00:29:59,650 --> 00:30:02,900 It was total humiliation. 412 00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:07,900 Well... 413 00:30:08,650 --> 00:30:12,900 There's a haircutter in New York City. 414 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,700 Bomba, that sounds familiar. 415 00:30:16,900 --> 00:30:18,070 Sounds familiar. 416 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,490 I think I remember that name. 417 00:30:21,150 --> 00:30:22,900 Yes, Bomba. 418 00:30:26,110 --> 00:30:28,070 REEL NO. 21 419 00:30:36,450 --> 00:30:39,650 Abraham Bomba had left New York without leaving an address. 420 00:30:40,740 --> 00:30:43,820 I made phone calls for days and they led nowhere. 421 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,360 The letters I sent were returned to sender. 422 00:30:50,450 --> 00:30:51,240 Bomba, take one! 423 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,030 I finally managed to track him down 424 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:55,570 while shooting in Israel. 425 00:30:56,610 --> 00:30:58,700 He thought my movie was just a cover. 426 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:17,700 Bomba, take four! 427 00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:22,150 Excuse me, 428 00:31:22,740 --> 00:31:25,360 can you describe... You became quiet suddenly. 429 00:31:25,570 --> 00:31:28,820 At one day we had a order 430 00:31:29,490 --> 00:31:32,780 to get together a certain amount of barbers 431 00:31:32,990 --> 00:31:36,780 and to go cut the hair of the women. 432 00:31:37,490 --> 00:31:41,070 They took us up to the place 433 00:31:41,780 --> 00:31:43,780 where we never went over there. 434 00:31:43,990 --> 00:31:45,860 No-one from the... 435 00:31:47,450 --> 00:31:50,360 the Treblinka, where we were 436 00:31:50,570 --> 00:31:54,860 at our place and we went across that big door 437 00:31:55,570 --> 00:31:56,570 going into, 438 00:31:56,780 --> 00:32:00,740 at that time, which we know already was the gas chamber. 439 00:32:00,950 --> 00:32:03,240 They took us over there. 440 00:32:04,030 --> 00:32:05,990 I could sense Bomba getting nervous, 441 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,110 which only agitated my own anxiety. 442 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,990 We both knew the difficult part was nigh, 443 00:32:12,700 --> 00:32:15,360 that we'd have to talk about cutting women's hair 444 00:32:15,570 --> 00:32:16,740 inside the gas chambers. 445 00:32:17,070 --> 00:32:18,900 It's difficult for you, I know. 446 00:32:19,990 --> 00:32:21,700 Yes, it is. 447 00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,110 It's very difficult because, you know, 448 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,320 you have to go through this thing all over again 449 00:32:27,950 --> 00:32:29,820 and it is very painful. 450 00:32:30,740 --> 00:32:32,780 Yes, but you have to do it. 451 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:34,450 You must. 452 00:32:35,030 --> 00:32:36,400 You have no choice. 453 00:32:42,150 --> 00:32:43,610 Let's cut, please. 454 00:32:59,490 --> 00:33:01,740 The barbershop idea was mine. 455 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,780 I thought getting him working 456 00:33:06,990 --> 00:33:08,820 might make it easier for him to talk 457 00:33:09,030 --> 00:33:11,030 than sitting in front of a camera. 458 00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:18,700 I placed him in his professional setting and said, 459 00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:20,070 "Abraham, 460 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:21,990 do what you did back then". 461 00:33:27,610 --> 00:33:29,780 That's when the truth found its footing 462 00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:32,360 and he was transported into the past like an actor. 463 00:33:32,570 --> 00:33:34,860 You said that you didn't shave them. 464 00:33:35,070 --> 00:33:36,820 No, we did not shave. 465 00:33:37,030 --> 00:33:39,450 We just cut the hair, make them believe 466 00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:42,320 that they're getting a nice haircut. 467 00:33:42,530 --> 00:33:44,320 But you cut with what? With scissors? 468 00:33:44,530 --> 00:33:48,030 With scissors, yes, and with comb, without any clippers, 469 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,820 just like a men's haircut, I would say. 470 00:33:54,070 --> 00:33:55,780 What did you feel when you started 471 00:33:56,110 --> 00:33:59,610 to cut the hair of the women after the war? 472 00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:06,240 After the war... That is a really good question 473 00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:07,700 because 474 00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:10,700 when I came out from the 475 00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:13,990 extermination camp in Treblinka 476 00:34:14,610 --> 00:34:17,360 and I went into work in a barbershop 477 00:34:18,610 --> 00:34:21,700 and when a woman was sitting at the chair, 478 00:34:24,070 --> 00:34:25,450 in dress, 479 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:27,490 it was funny for me 480 00:34:27,700 --> 00:34:31,900 because I was cutting the hair for so many 100 and 100 women 481 00:34:32,110 --> 00:34:34,990 all naked, without any dress 482 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,570 and I didn't know that, from the beginning, I didn't 483 00:34:37,780 --> 00:34:40,820 know how to start doing the haircut 484 00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:42,820 where a woman sits 485 00:34:43,030 --> 00:34:45,700 dressed like a woman should be 486 00:34:46,490 --> 00:34:49,570 and it was, emotionally for me, 487 00:34:49,780 --> 00:34:52,780 it was... I couldn't get used to the idea. 488 00:34:52,990 --> 00:34:55,490 It took quite a time 489 00:34:55,700 --> 00:34:59,240 until I get used to myself to do the cutting 490 00:34:59,570 --> 00:35:03,150 of a lady's hair 491 00:35:03,950 --> 00:35:06,900 dressed with her clothes on. 492 00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:16,900 You can fill in details, but I've told you a lot. 493 00:35:17,110 --> 00:35:18,530 You have indeed. 494 00:35:20,740 --> 00:35:22,610 He has to change his tape. 495 00:35:22,820 --> 00:35:25,650 - Yes. - You should try... 496 00:35:25,860 --> 00:35:28,150 He's looking at you a lot. You should... 497 00:35:29,570 --> 00:35:32,530 - Can you hear him all right? - Very well. 498 00:35:32,860 --> 00:35:35,740 - Let me take a moment to change... - The tape? 499 00:35:35,950 --> 00:35:37,990 - The head. - All right. 500 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,280 - Sound working? - No. 501 00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:43,110 OK, headphones back on. 502 00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:50,700 Or let's stop and get a bite to eat. 503 00:35:53,570 --> 00:35:55,490 We took a break for a lunch 504 00:35:55,700 --> 00:35:57,780 and I invited Suchomel's wife to join. 505 00:36:01,150 --> 00:36:03,530 They stuffed themselves on salmon and cream. 506 00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:11,570 That night, 507 00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:15,150 I got into a heated discussion with William Lubtchansky, 508 00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:18,200 whose father had been gassed at Auschwitz. 509 00:36:20,860 --> 00:36:23,070 He couldn't understand why I was so cool-headed, 510 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,950 that it was crucial to the act I was putting on. 511 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,610 He'd have killed Suchomel. 512 00:36:31,150 --> 00:36:33,200 I wanted to kill him another way... 513 00:36:36,650 --> 00:36:38,610 kill him with the camera. 514 00:36:38,820 --> 00:36:40,200 Let's stop. 515 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,900 My heart is starting to act up. 516 00:36:43,110 --> 00:36:44,240 Very well. 517 00:36:46,450 --> 00:36:48,070 No, keep rolling. 518 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,110 Pretend like you're stopping. 519 00:36:52,030 --> 00:36:53,990 Are you experiencing pain? 520 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:55,780 Pains in your chest? 521 00:36:55,990 --> 00:36:58,740 - Angina pectoris. - Angina pectoris? 522 00:36:58,950 --> 00:37:01,110 It'll pass in five minutes. 523 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,030 Very well, I won't go out for a smoke then. 524 00:37:07,900 --> 00:37:09,610 Is it from... 525 00:37:12,740 --> 00:37:15,490 Can you ask him if it's because he's getting emotional? 526 00:37:16,110 --> 00:37:19,030 Is it from the emotion? 527 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:21,700 I get annoyed 528 00:37:24,110 --> 00:37:27,280 when people ask me that. 529 00:37:32,860 --> 00:37:36,320 It's because I ate too much. 530 00:37:36,530 --> 00:37:39,860 You did eat a lot. 531 00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:41,780 We'll restart in a bit. 532 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,900 Salmon does that. 533 00:37:53,490 --> 00:37:54,950 - Excuse me? - Salmon does that. 534 00:37:55,150 --> 00:37:57,070 It was all that cream. 535 00:37:57,280 --> 00:37:58,400 Sure. 536 00:38:00,820 --> 00:38:01,990 When we got going again, 537 00:38:02,740 --> 00:38:04,490 Suchomel was feeling confident. 538 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,860 I had him sing for me the song the Arbeitsjuden 539 00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:09,650 had to learn upon enlistment. 540 00:38:09,990 --> 00:38:14,450 The commandos march To their daily labour 541 00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:20,150 In our eyes, All that matters is Treblinka 542 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,280 Our destinies are tied to it 543 00:38:24,490 --> 00:38:28,490 Treblinka became part of us 544 00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:32,610 In the blink of an eye 545 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,450 The words of our commander Are all that matter 546 00:38:37,650 --> 00:38:41,700 Beside obedience and duty 547 00:38:41,900 --> 00:38:46,240 We're here to serve And serve and serve 548 00:38:46,450 --> 00:38:50,320 Until happiness shines upon us one fine day 549 00:38:50,650 --> 00:38:51,650 Hoorah! 550 00:38:59,740 --> 00:39:01,650 You have a great singing voice. 551 00:39:02,450 --> 00:39:04,110 Yes, I have... 552 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,860 A great singing voice. 553 00:39:06,490 --> 00:39:10,200 Only the Jews sang that song? 554 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,360 Only Jews, yes, 555 00:39:12,570 --> 00:39:15,150 but we can keep singing that our destinies 556 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,950 are tied to Treblinka, can't we? 557 00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:21,950 The Jews are no longer around. 558 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,900 They can't tell the story. 559 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:32,900 With sure step Looking out over the world, 560 00:39:33,110 --> 00:39:37,280 Headlong into the distance 561 00:39:37,490 --> 00:39:41,360 The commandos march To their daily labour 562 00:39:42,570 --> 00:39:45,650 In our eyes, All that matters is Treblinka 563 00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:48,150 Our destinies are tied to it 564 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:49,490 Treblinka became... 565 00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:51,700 One Jewish man remembered it. 566 00:39:56,530 --> 00:39:58,860 Richard Glazar had survived Treblinka 567 00:39:59,070 --> 00:40:02,490 by fleeing during the Treblinka Uprising of August 1943. 568 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,650 To pay their way on the run, Glazar and a friend 569 00:40:06,860 --> 00:40:10,610 were given a few diamonds that Jews in Suchomel's work units 570 00:40:10,820 --> 00:40:12,950 had looted from the remains of the dead. 571 00:40:14,490 --> 00:40:17,200 We hid the diamonds 572 00:40:18,070 --> 00:40:21,360 in beard soap 573 00:40:22,030 --> 00:40:24,740 and held onto them, 574 00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:27,280 telling ourselves... 575 00:40:29,530 --> 00:40:32,280 that we shouldn't pawn the diamonds 576 00:40:32,490 --> 00:40:37,110 to help us survive. 577 00:40:37,780 --> 00:40:40,530 If fate would only smile on us, 578 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,950 the riches we took from Treblinka 579 00:40:46,150 --> 00:40:47,820 should never 580 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,150 be traded 581 00:40:52,740 --> 00:40:54,650 for our survival. 582 00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:59,030 So, we never sold the diamonds 583 00:41:00,860 --> 00:41:02,240 and later... 584 00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:07,360 we had the diamonds set 585 00:41:08,490 --> 00:41:14,110 in rings we gave to our wives. 586 00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:17,900 Carel's wife and my own 587 00:41:18,450 --> 00:41:21,070 still wear their rings to this day. 588 00:41:22,820 --> 00:41:26,070 You never sold them? 589 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:28,740 No. 590 00:41:32,490 --> 00:41:36,150 Even though we were constantly short on money. 591 00:41:40,030 --> 00:41:42,070 Can you show what you have there? 592 00:41:45,650 --> 00:41:47,780 This is the razor. 593 00:41:51,650 --> 00:41:53,320 And the soap. 594 00:41:58,070 --> 00:42:01,610 This soap is from Treblinka, 595 00:42:02,240 --> 00:42:03,860 as is the case. 596 00:42:04,070 --> 00:42:08,400 These are likely all 597 00:42:09,070 --> 00:42:11,070 that have survived 598 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,280 of the 800,000 victims 599 00:42:15,820 --> 00:42:20,280 and this is the ring my wife wears. 600 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,200 That's... 601 00:42:44,570 --> 00:42:45,740 gorgeous. 602 00:42:52,820 --> 00:42:54,110 Are you tearing up? 603 00:43:03,990 --> 00:43:08,240 Did you also used to cry back then? 604 00:43:08,450 --> 00:43:12,530 Yes, at day's end every day, I'd pray. 605 00:43:13,110 --> 00:43:15,490 - You would pray? - Yes. 606 00:43:16,450 --> 00:43:17,490 To God? 607 00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:18,740 To God. 608 00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:20,110 To God. 609 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,030 For Him to forgive me. 610 00:43:28,530 --> 00:43:31,530 I'll consider this compensation for my pain 611 00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:35,070 and not compensation for doing an interview. 612 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,530 Compensation for your pain? 613 00:43:38,070 --> 00:43:39,360 This... 614 00:43:39,570 --> 00:43:41,400 cross I bear that causes me to suffer. 615 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,650 It's the reason I'll burn tomorrow and forever. 616 00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,030 This is 2,000 Swiss francs, 617 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:51,820 similar to Deutsche marks. 618 00:43:52,030 --> 00:43:53,110 Thank you. 619 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,240 I kicked and screamed all the way to Poland, 620 00:44:56,450 --> 00:44:59,740 though it was the beating heart of the extermination project. 621 00:45:02,070 --> 00:45:04,030 Something in me didn't want to go there. 622 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,700 What was there to see? People who weren't there any more? 623 00:45:11,610 --> 00:45:14,700 I figured that, since my film was about destruction, 624 00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:16,570 settings were of no importance. 625 00:45:18,110 --> 00:45:21,280 I saw Poland as a memorial void. 626 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:33,860 I went late in the process, 627 00:45:34,700 --> 00:45:36,240 in the winter of 1978, 628 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,900 five years after starting work on Shoah. 629 00:45:42,530 --> 00:45:44,570 I'd been everywhere else until then. 630 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:50,360 I was arrogant arriving in Poland, 631 00:45:50,570 --> 00:45:54,070 positive I was only there to prove I didn't need to be there. 632 00:45:59,150 --> 00:46:01,360 My first day there, I rented a Russian banger 633 00:46:02,070 --> 00:46:03,200 and set out for Treblinka. 634 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,530 I wanted to see the site with my own eyes. 635 00:46:38,070 --> 00:46:39,320 I felt nothing. 636 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:41,320 I gaped, 637 00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:43,740 my mind and soul bewildered, 638 00:46:44,490 --> 00:46:45,990 the only reaction I could manage 639 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:47,820 at the traces left of the massacre. 640 00:46:50,780 --> 00:46:54,110 What lay before me was so different from what I'd learned about 641 00:46:54,780 --> 00:46:56,490 from my reading 642 00:46:56,700 --> 00:46:58,610 and, more importantly, from Suchomel, 643 00:46:58,820 --> 00:47:01,070 Glazar and Abraham Bomba. 644 00:47:06,650 --> 00:47:08,150 There are two kids there. 645 00:47:57,950 --> 00:47:59,860 Barbara, say hi to them. 646 00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,360 Ask him to come over here. 647 00:48:12,820 --> 00:48:14,950 Hi there, sir. 648 00:48:15,150 --> 00:48:17,740 Ask if he's lived in Treblinka a long time. 649 00:48:25,490 --> 00:48:27,150 Sixty-seven years. 650 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:28,570 - Sixty-seven? - Yes. 651 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:34,320 He must have seen some things. 652 00:48:41,450 --> 00:48:43,820 Does he care to share with us what he's seen? 653 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,200 I'm going to step out. 654 00:48:56,570 --> 00:48:57,280 What's that? 655 00:48:57,490 --> 00:48:59,240 - Step out with me. - How? 656 00:48:59,450 --> 00:49:01,150 Step out 657 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,780 on the other side. 658 00:49:13,490 --> 00:49:16,400 Two Germans struck them and killed 659 00:49:16,610 --> 00:49:17,700 both of them, 660 00:49:17,900 --> 00:49:20,450 two boys as young as his grandson, 661 00:49:20,650 --> 00:49:21,570 about his age. 662 00:49:21,780 --> 00:49:22,950 He witnessed that? 663 00:49:26,110 --> 00:49:27,030 Where was he? 664 00:49:32,820 --> 00:49:34,650 He was on his way to the fields. 665 00:49:46,990 --> 00:49:49,950 Tell them we're making a movie. We're from France. 666 00:49:56,700 --> 00:49:58,360 Hello, sir. 667 00:49:58,570 --> 00:49:59,530 Hi. 668 00:50:01,860 --> 00:50:05,450 Does he have any memories of Warsaw Jews arriving in cattle wagons? 669 00:50:07,490 --> 00:50:09,070 Six trains per day. 670 00:50:11,490 --> 00:50:13,650 Each train was 60 cars, 671 00:50:13,860 --> 00:50:16,700 but only 20 of them would go off to the camp. 672 00:50:16,900 --> 00:50:17,530 I see. 673 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:22,200 The trains were separated by hand. 674 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:23,780 He saw all this himself? 675 00:50:27,610 --> 00:50:28,900 If it happened here, he saw it. 676 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,900 He locked the door and may go fetch his gun. 677 00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:47,070 Well, let's try somewhere else. 678 00:50:49,900 --> 00:50:51,570 You heard that lock, clack! 679 00:50:55,490 --> 00:50:56,200 Come on. 680 00:51:42,900 --> 00:51:45,610 I'd felt nothing seeing the memorial at the camp, 681 00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,400 but that little sign struck a deep chord. 682 00:51:50,820 --> 00:51:52,530 Treblinka was real. 683 00:51:53,530 --> 00:51:55,900 There was once a village called Treblinka, 684 00:51:56,490 --> 00:51:57,570 a brave village. 685 00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:03,400 When I first arrived here 686 00:52:03,740 --> 00:52:05,650 full of everything I'd learned, 687 00:52:05,860 --> 00:52:08,650 I felt like a bomb ready to go off. 688 00:52:09,950 --> 00:52:11,610 All I needed was a detonator. 689 00:52:13,570 --> 00:52:15,400 Treblinka was that detonator. 690 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,070 On the line over there where we stayed, 691 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,950 there was a small sign which said, "Treblinka" 692 00:52:24,700 --> 00:52:26,530 and it was first time 693 00:52:26,740 --> 00:52:29,860 in my life I heard about that name, Treblinka. 694 00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:34,200 On the other side of the tracks, 695 00:52:35,110 --> 00:52:37,280 I saw about 696 00:52:37,490 --> 00:52:40,860 18, 20, maybe more wagons 697 00:52:41,700 --> 00:52:43,320 going away 698 00:52:47,740 --> 00:52:50,740 and after about an hour or so, 699 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,820 I saw the ones coming back, but without the people. 700 00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,740 Our train went in also. 701 00:53:01,570 --> 00:53:04,490 When we got to the extermination camp, 702 00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:07,610 all of a sudden we heard screaming, 703 00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,110 "Men to the right and women to the left!" 704 00:53:15,950 --> 00:53:18,150 My wife was holding the child 705 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:21,820 and my mother was together with her, 706 00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:27,950 so we, me, my brother and my father, went to the right side, 707 00:53:29,740 --> 00:53:32,110 and the women went to the left side, 708 00:53:32,450 --> 00:53:33,740 to the barracks. 709 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,450 That was the last time 710 00:53:37,650 --> 00:53:43,150 I saw anybody of the female relative of mine. 711 00:54:57,610 --> 00:54:59,570 I heard about a train driver 712 00:54:59,780 --> 00:55:01,240 who operated the Holocaust trains 713 00:55:01,450 --> 00:55:03,360 every year the camp was operational 714 00:55:04,030 --> 00:55:06,900 and he lived only some 10 kilometres from Treblinka. 715 00:55:14,030 --> 00:55:15,360 Rolling. 716 00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:16,610 Call out. 717 00:55:16,820 --> 00:55:17,950 Take 17. 718 00:55:19,030 --> 00:55:22,070 How old was Mr Gawkowski at the time? 719 00:55:35,860 --> 00:55:37,900 He began operating trains 720 00:55:38,110 --> 00:55:40,200 when he was fairly young. 721 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:42,570 He was in his early 20s during the war. 722 00:55:42,780 --> 00:55:44,240 His early 20s, 723 00:55:44,450 --> 00:55:45,700 a young man. 724 00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:50,150 Yes! 725 00:55:50,860 --> 00:55:53,570 That's why his memory of what happened 726 00:55:53,780 --> 00:55:55,740 is so clear. 727 00:55:57,070 --> 00:55:58,450 In that case... 728 00:56:00,900 --> 00:56:02,450 His memory is less sharp now. 729 00:56:02,650 --> 00:56:04,200 He seems to have a great memory. 730 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:08,110 So much so he looks to be reliving that time. 731 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,570 Absolutely right. 732 00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:21,240 Right. 733 00:56:21,450 --> 00:56:24,320 It's as if he can see it all before his eyes. 734 00:56:30,740 --> 00:56:33,030 Did he hear ever screaming while driving the trains? 735 00:56:35,490 --> 00:56:37,570 Yes. 736 00:56:37,780 --> 00:56:40,820 What did people scream? 737 00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:44,200 Were they just shouts or did people say things? 738 00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,030 It was anything and everything, 739 00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:52,450 anything and everything. 740 00:56:52,650 --> 00:56:54,360 Calling out, shouts, everything. 741 00:56:59,150 --> 00:57:01,200 Does he have nightmares about it 742 00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:02,400 to this day? 743 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,650 It's happened more than once, 744 00:57:12,860 --> 00:57:13,990 to say the least. 745 00:57:18,990 --> 00:57:20,400 Sure! 746 00:57:20,990 --> 00:57:22,150 Let's go! 747 00:57:51,490 --> 00:57:53,490 I told Gawkowski 748 00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:55,570 I'd film him driving into Treblinka. 749 00:57:56,780 --> 00:57:58,740 Just like Bomba in the barber shop, 750 00:57:58,950 --> 00:58:00,990 Gawkowski was transported, 751 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,990 seeing 60 imaginary Holocaust trains taking people to their deaths. 752 00:58:13,110 --> 00:58:14,700 There were no wagons attached, 753 00:58:16,070 --> 00:58:19,610 just the engine that came at a high rental price from the Polish rail. 754 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,650 Barbara, will you please ask Mr Borowi, 755 00:58:42,860 --> 00:58:44,610 if he lived here 756 00:58:44,820 --> 00:58:45,820 during the war? 757 00:58:48,610 --> 00:58:50,610 Yes, 758 00:58:50,820 --> 00:58:51,530 during the occupation. 759 00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,450 I heard him say the word "Christ", 760 00:58:54,650 --> 00:58:55,990 what was that in relation to? 761 00:59:25,950 --> 00:59:29,030 He says that according to religious tradition, 762 00:59:29,240 --> 00:59:31,610 when Christ was alive, 763 00:59:31,820 --> 00:59:34,490 the Jews had him crucified 764 00:59:34,700 --> 00:59:36,900 and as we know, 765 00:59:37,110 --> 00:59:39,400 he was resurrected, 766 00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:44,900 so what happened to the Jews 767 00:59:45,110 --> 00:59:47,860 happened to them 768 00:59:48,070 --> 00:59:49,900 because of what they did to Christ. 769 00:59:50,110 --> 00:59:52,990 They had to pay for the injustice. 770 00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,200 Is that what he means? 771 01:00:02,650 --> 01:00:04,780 "That's what the old timers say. 772 01:00:04,990 --> 01:00:07,110 - I'm just repeating it". - I see. 773 01:00:08,070 --> 01:00:09,280 Take 55. 774 01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:11,820 Barbara, 775 01:00:12,030 --> 01:00:14,320 can you ask... 776 01:00:14,530 --> 01:00:17,240 Excuse me, Mr Borowi. Would you ask him 777 01:00:17,450 --> 01:00:19,570 if he thinks I'm Jewish? 778 01:00:23,530 --> 01:00:24,860 - He thinks so. - Why? 779 01:00:34,030 --> 01:00:36,320 The way you speak 780 01:00:36,530 --> 01:00:38,530 and carry yourself, 781 01:00:38,740 --> 01:00:41,150 but mostly how you speak. You speak French 782 01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,070 with a slightly Jewish accent. 783 01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:44,360 - A Jewish accent? - Yeah. 784 01:00:44,990 --> 01:00:46,200 Very well. 785 01:00:55,070 --> 01:00:57,200 I was the first to interview Gawkowski, Borowi 786 01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,400 and the other farmers around. 787 01:01:00,860 --> 01:01:03,650 No-one else had cared to listen to what they had to say. 788 01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,530 It produced a harrowing realisation in me 789 01:01:09,450 --> 01:01:11,570 that the farmers in the heart of Poland 790 01:01:11,780 --> 01:01:13,610 had been the nearest humans 791 01:01:13,820 --> 01:01:15,530 to the victims of the Holocaust. 792 01:01:20,030 --> 01:01:21,360 In Poland, I discovered 793 01:01:21,570 --> 01:01:23,700 a gold mine of things left unsaid. 794 01:01:51,780 --> 01:01:55,570 You'd think it impossible for this to have happened here, 795 01:01:56,610 --> 01:01:59,200 given how beautiful and peaceful it is here. 796 01:02:00,530 --> 01:02:01,490 So quiet. 797 01:02:07,900 --> 01:02:09,650 Believe me, it wasn't always 798 01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,150 this quiet around here. 799 01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:22,490 There was a time 800 01:02:23,990 --> 01:02:27,450 when you'd have only heard shouts, barking dogs and gunshots 801 01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:29,450 where we are now. 802 01:03:08,450 --> 01:03:10,950 When not filming in Poland or the US, 803 01:03:11,150 --> 01:03:13,030 we were like a travelling circus 804 01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:14,570 or theatre troop 805 01:03:15,110 --> 01:03:18,650 crisscrossing Germany's towns and villages gleaning more and more. 806 01:03:21,990 --> 01:03:23,650 In the hotels at night, 807 01:03:23,860 --> 01:03:25,200 a good bottle of red wine 808 01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,700 would help keep our spirits up 809 01:03:28,450 --> 01:03:30,700 to do it all over again the next day. 810 01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,780 Every day, we set our sights on a new target. 811 01:03:42,860 --> 01:03:44,150 Mr Kretschmer? 812 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:48,570 On my way. 813 01:03:48,780 --> 01:03:49,950 OK. 814 01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:58,740 I'd love to interview you 815 01:03:59,070 --> 01:04:01,450 about your letters. Do you remember them? 816 01:04:02,150 --> 01:04:03,490 Oh, I don't much wish to. 817 01:04:03,700 --> 01:04:05,360 That's so... 818 01:04:07,450 --> 01:04:11,860 The reality of what happened is so disgusting 819 01:04:12,070 --> 01:04:14,490 I'd really rather distance myself from all that. 820 01:04:14,700 --> 01:04:16,070 Why'd you make the joke, 821 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:19,150 "The sight of blood has become so common 822 01:04:19,360 --> 01:04:21,900 you can't bear the taste of black pudding"? 823 01:04:22,110 --> 01:04:23,450 What's black pudding? 824 01:04:23,650 --> 01:04:25,530 It's pork and beef blood. 825 01:04:25,740 --> 01:04:28,530 So, a sausage made with blood? 826 01:04:28,740 --> 01:04:32,740 A sausage made with blood that takes on a black colour. 827 01:04:32,950 --> 01:04:36,240 Why was the taste of black pudding so hard to bear? 828 01:04:37,070 --> 01:04:39,740 Because there was so much blood? 829 01:04:39,950 --> 01:04:41,240 I don't know. 830 01:04:41,450 --> 01:04:43,650 It seems to me... 831 01:04:44,860 --> 01:04:48,570 We went out one time and when we got back, 832 01:04:48,780 --> 01:04:51,820 there was a table set with a dinner spread 833 01:04:52,030 --> 01:04:54,570 that included black pudding and comments were made. 834 01:04:54,780 --> 01:04:57,990 I believe what you're trying to say 835 01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,320 is that after an execution, it was hard to eat black pudding. 836 01:05:01,530 --> 01:05:02,700 I... I... 837 01:05:02,900 --> 01:05:05,740 It's an interesting thing to say. 838 01:05:07,030 --> 01:05:08,200 What? 839 01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:11,780 That was something, huh? 840 01:05:11,990 --> 01:05:14,570 I hope that Dominique 841 01:05:14,780 --> 01:05:15,900 caught all that. 842 01:05:50,740 --> 01:05:53,610 A euphoric feeling of omnipotence was coming over me 843 01:05:53,820 --> 01:05:56,200 and our entire little troop. 844 01:05:58,150 --> 01:05:59,400 I let my guard down. 845 01:05:59,950 --> 01:06:01,360 I grew less weary. 846 01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:15,240 D*mn! 847 01:06:26,900 --> 01:06:28,360 Whatever it took, I wanted to talk 848 01:06:28,570 --> 01:06:30,320 to a commander of the Einsatzgruppen, 849 01:06:31,070 --> 01:06:34,320 the mobile killing squads that murdered 1.5 million Jews. 850 01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:38,570 I set my sights on Heinz Schubert, 851 01:06:38,780 --> 01:06:41,780 a lieutenant who oversaw the Simferopol massacre in Crimea. 852 01:06:46,490 --> 01:06:47,490 There are dogs. 853 01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:56,950 Yeah. 854 01:06:58,610 --> 01:07:01,490 Hi, might I speak to Mr Schubert? 855 01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:10,700 Please, have a seat. 856 01:07:11,530 --> 01:07:13,610 We're on the garden side. 857 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:18,950 This is good here. 858 01:07:19,490 --> 01:07:21,610 He can be there. 859 01:07:26,070 --> 01:07:28,360 - Hi there. - Hi, Mr Schubert. 860 01:07:30,070 --> 01:07:33,030 - You're Dr Sorel? - That's right. 861 01:07:33,740 --> 01:07:35,900 I'm not familiar with your institute. 862 01:07:36,110 --> 01:07:38,650 I don't understand the work you do. 863 01:07:38,860 --> 01:07:41,740 It's affiliated to the University of Paris. 864 01:07:43,860 --> 01:07:46,700 Are you're here on behalf 865 01:07:47,860 --> 01:07:49,280 of the French government? 866 01:07:49,490 --> 01:07:51,400 No, I'm carrying out research 867 01:07:51,740 --> 01:07:53,860 on the Einsatzgruppen. 868 01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:57,280 I had Corinna go out and make sure the van was picking us up 869 01:07:57,610 --> 01:07:59,950 because we were toward the back of the house. 870 01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:05,860 Great. 871 01:08:11,530 --> 01:08:13,700 Mrs Schubert swiftly grabbed our bag 872 01:08:14,450 --> 01:08:15,740 and placed it on the ground, 873 01:08:16,570 --> 01:08:19,780 so all we caught from then on were lower legs and chairs. 874 01:08:21,950 --> 01:08:24,650 Oh, what happened? That's not good. We've lost connection. 875 01:08:30,780 --> 01:08:35,280 Pardon me. Heinz, will you come pick up the phone? 876 01:08:35,490 --> 01:08:37,200 Excuse me. 877 01:08:43,110 --> 01:08:44,740 They noticed the van. 878 01:08:46,110 --> 01:08:48,320 I bet they noticed the antenna. 879 01:08:49,950 --> 01:08:51,820 It's hard to miss. 880 01:08:52,030 --> 01:08:53,570 They keep jostling it about. 881 01:08:55,650 --> 01:08:57,030 It's a problem. 882 01:08:59,780 --> 01:09:02,900 You shouldn't be broadcasting this to the outside. 883 01:09:03,110 --> 01:09:06,740 I was out by the vehicle and saw the recording equipment. 884 01:09:10,820 --> 01:09:13,070 It isn't right to lie to people like this. 885 01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:15,570 Let's work this out. 886 01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:20,900 - No. - We heard voices in the vehicle. 887 01:09:21,110 --> 01:09:22,700 I stood right next to it. 888 01:09:22,900 --> 01:09:25,950 What do you think I'm up to? I would like to know. 889 01:09:26,150 --> 01:09:29,320 There's a vehicle outside with recording equipment in it. 890 01:09:29,530 --> 01:09:31,400 And it's recording this conversation. 891 01:09:31,610 --> 01:09:32,360 What? 892 01:09:32,570 --> 01:09:34,450 Call the police. 893 01:09:34,650 --> 01:09:39,030 Madam, you were outside next to the vehicle. 894 01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:41,240 I saw you out there. 895 01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:45,610 You saw that it was recording. 896 01:09:45,820 --> 01:09:48,400 Show us what's in your bag. 897 01:09:48,610 --> 01:09:49,820 Show us. 898 01:09:50,030 --> 01:09:52,360 No. That's none of your business. 899 01:09:52,700 --> 01:09:54,860 I want to see what's inside. 900 01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:57,400 No. That won't be happening. 901 01:09:59,150 --> 01:10:02,320 No. That won't be happening. What is all this? 902 01:10:07,700 --> 01:10:09,530 We had to run from police. 903 01:10:10,530 --> 01:10:12,990 With all my might, I threw the bag at them, 904 01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:14,700 which held them off. 905 01:10:17,110 --> 01:10:18,650 I jumped in the car 906 01:10:18,860 --> 01:10:21,570 and drove flat out at the human blockade 907 01:10:21,900 --> 01:10:23,070 trying to keep us there. 908 01:10:24,950 --> 01:10:28,150 They knew I'd rather kill them than get caught by police. 909 01:10:30,070 --> 01:10:32,110 I couldn't replace the Paluche. 910 01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:35,320 I didn't know how I'd keep working. 911 01:10:37,150 --> 01:10:38,490 Even worse than that, 912 01:10:38,700 --> 01:10:41,110 my film didn't feature anyone from the Einsatzgruppen, 913 01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:43,700 though they were so crucial. 914 01:10:46,490 --> 01:10:47,900 For those executioners, 915 01:10:48,110 --> 01:10:49,280 I'd gone out on a limb 916 01:10:50,030 --> 01:10:50,950 and I'd lost my bet. 917 01:10:54,570 --> 01:10:55,950 Barbara, ask these kids 918 01:10:56,150 --> 01:10:58,650 what they think of the history here? 919 01:11:16,610 --> 01:11:19,900 They don't much believe the tales the old folks tell. 920 01:11:20,110 --> 01:11:21,070 They don't? 921 01:11:24,150 --> 01:11:26,450 Hey, quiet down, huh? 922 01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:42,200 I filmed every season in Poland, 923 01:11:43,070 --> 01:11:44,530 each one a season of death. 924 01:12:22,530 --> 01:12:24,150 Shoah is an allegory 925 01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:26,530 of European Jews journeying toward death. 926 01:12:34,650 --> 01:12:36,280 It's a race against death. 927 01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:44,990 Soon, the recent past 928 01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:46,860 will become history 929 01:12:47,530 --> 01:12:48,780 and only history. 930 01:12:51,400 --> 01:12:53,360 Shoah is an act of remembrance. 931 01:12:54,110 --> 01:12:57,240 Remembrance is all that matters. 932 01:13:04,150 --> 01:13:06,650 Ready? Rolling? OK. 933 01:13:18,110 --> 01:13:19,530 My directors of photography, Chappuis, 934 01:13:19,740 --> 01:13:21,490 who followed Lubtchansky and Glasberg, 935 01:13:21,700 --> 01:13:22,740 all would ask to me, 936 01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,240 "Why do you keep filming these rocks? 937 01:13:26,780 --> 01:13:28,200 You've filmed them ten times". 938 01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:31,990 I couldn't get enough of them. 939 01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:37,030 I didn't film them enough and kept returning to Treblinka 940 01:13:37,240 --> 01:13:38,650 to film them more. 941 01:13:41,490 --> 01:13:43,860 I shot them because that's all there was to shoot. 942 01:13:44,610 --> 01:13:46,320 I couldn't come up with anything else. 943 01:13:49,700 --> 01:13:53,030 I'd need them for when Bomba, Glazar, the farmers 944 01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:54,900 and Suchomel would speak. 945 01:13:58,860 --> 01:14:01,490 These blocks of stones turned human before my eyes, 946 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:04,990 the only trace of the hundreds of thousands who died here. 947 01:14:42,030 --> 01:14:45,610 Years prior, I'd left Simon Srebnik, the singer from Israel, 948 01:14:45,820 --> 01:14:47,900 without having understood much, 949 01:14:51,740 --> 01:14:53,360 but I'd honed my craft in the meantime. 950 01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:05,110 Corinna, ask Mr Srebnik 951 01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:06,990 if anything strikes him as familiar. 952 01:15:16,150 --> 01:15:17,610 What's this to the left? 953 01:15:23,110 --> 01:15:25,610 He doesn't remember. 954 01:15:29,490 --> 01:15:31,070 His memory will come back. 955 01:15:41,320 --> 01:15:42,610 Now he's remembering. 956 01:15:55,450 --> 01:15:56,490 Chelmno is this way. 957 01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:04,070 The camp was that way. 958 01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:06,070 What's this here? 959 01:16:12,860 --> 01:16:15,740 It's the church they locked people in. 960 01:16:20,030 --> 01:16:23,950 He'd go there to give people water. 961 01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:33,820 They'd see him approaching with his ankles 962 01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:36,450 in chains. 963 01:16:39,490 --> 01:16:40,860 No, this way. 964 01:16:41,070 --> 01:16:42,150 Here? 965 01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:43,450 Perhaps... 966 01:16:45,150 --> 01:16:46,320 Sure, go that way. 967 01:16:48,030 --> 01:16:49,110 Plane overhead. 968 01:16:50,110 --> 01:16:51,240 So, 969 01:16:51,450 --> 01:16:53,990 Corinna, tell Mr Srebnik we'll head 970 01:16:54,200 --> 01:16:57,070 to where the schlöss was, but I have a question first. 971 01:16:57,700 --> 01:17:00,490 Is this the same church that was here back then? 972 01:17:00,700 --> 01:17:02,150 What's changed since then? 973 01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:19,530 The exterior is the exact same. 974 01:17:19,740 --> 01:17:21,360 He can't say about the interior. 975 01:17:21,570 --> 01:17:23,320 The exterior is the exact same. 976 01:17:23,530 --> 01:17:25,490 The fence, the colours, everything? 977 01:17:30,900 --> 01:17:32,820 Yes, it's the exact same. 978 01:17:45,490 --> 01:17:46,530 Father, 979 01:17:46,740 --> 01:17:49,200 do you know what happened here 980 01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:51,110 in your church in Chelmno? 981 01:18:00,740 --> 01:18:03,610 He heard there was a drop-off 982 01:18:03,820 --> 01:18:05,650 of clothing that people would separate 983 01:18:05,860 --> 01:18:07,900 before shipping it off somewhere else. 984 01:18:08,110 --> 01:18:09,320 Shipping it off? 985 01:18:09,530 --> 01:18:12,110 That's all he knows about what happened in this church? 986 01:18:17,570 --> 01:18:20,320 That's what people have told him. 987 01:18:20,530 --> 01:18:21,700 What he's heard? 988 01:18:21,900 --> 01:18:24,450 He doesn't think anything else happened here? 989 01:18:30,950 --> 01:18:33,610 The church was just used as a collection point. 990 01:18:33,820 --> 01:18:35,200 For items? 991 01:18:35,400 --> 01:18:36,990 Yes, a collection point. 992 01:18:38,700 --> 01:18:41,200 I didn't think this interview 993 01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:43,950 would go like this. 994 01:18:44,150 --> 01:18:44,860 Yesterday 995 01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:46,900 when the cameras weren't rolling, 996 01:18:47,110 --> 01:18:49,360 Father explained to us 997 01:18:49,570 --> 01:18:53,740 that when he first began to lead this congregation, 998 01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:56,990 the walls of the church were covered in writings 999 01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:00,200 from the Jews who'd spent their last night alive here, 1000 01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:02,530 writing messages on the walls. 1001 01:19:02,860 --> 01:19:04,400 He even showed us one, 1002 01:19:04,610 --> 01:19:06,530 the only one left 1003 01:19:06,740 --> 01:19:08,030 from a Jew from Leipzig, 1004 01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:11,360 who wrote his name, though it's barely legible. 1005 01:19:11,570 --> 01:19:13,110 You can make out Leipzig. 1006 01:19:14,450 --> 01:19:17,490 How does he explain this graffiti? I don't understand. 1007 01:19:22,070 --> 01:19:25,650 He doesn't understand your question. 1008 01:19:27,110 --> 01:19:28,320 He doesn't? 1009 01:19:38,530 --> 01:19:41,490 When I first got the chains put on me, 1010 01:19:41,700 --> 01:19:43,400 I couldn't walk very fast. 1011 01:19:43,610 --> 01:19:46,110 I had to walk like this. 1012 01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:48,570 - You had chains put on you? - I did. 1013 01:19:50,030 --> 01:19:53,240 Then an SS officer made an announcement: 1014 01:19:53,450 --> 01:19:56,950 "The first person to reach the petrol supply", 1015 01:19:57,150 --> 01:20:00,070 said SS Bothmann, 1016 01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:02,030 "can get longer chains put on". 1017 01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:04,240 My God, it was a game. 1018 01:20:04,450 --> 01:20:06,530 Yes, we were all lined up here, standing, 1019 01:20:06,740 --> 01:20:09,860 and we raced to the petrol supply, 1020 01:20:10,070 --> 01:20:13,450 but I didn't run, I hopped with the help of my hands. 1021 01:20:13,650 --> 01:20:15,110 You could do that? 1022 01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:17,700 I got there like this. 1023 01:20:29,990 --> 01:20:31,570 When Mr Srebnik was here, 1024 01:20:31,780 --> 01:20:33,780 people would get locked in the church 1025 01:20:33,990 --> 01:20:36,990 before being loaded into gas vans. 1026 01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:39,070 No, no, 1027 01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:40,740 not right before. 1028 01:20:40,950 --> 01:20:42,950 That's incorrect. 1029 01:20:43,860 --> 01:20:46,400 When there was no more... 1030 01:20:46,610 --> 01:20:47,650 Oh, that! 1031 01:20:47,860 --> 01:20:49,990 People were in the church 1032 01:20:50,200 --> 01:20:53,280 and the gas vans would come to pick them up. 1033 01:20:55,070 --> 01:20:59,030 The van would take 80 to 90 people 1034 01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:01,530 and head to the forest. 1035 01:21:01,740 --> 01:21:04,320 They'd empty the vans there, 1036 01:21:04,990 --> 01:21:09,400 then come back to the church to load up more people 1037 01:21:09,610 --> 01:21:12,110 and head back out to the forest. 1038 01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:15,820 They'd go back and forth from the forest 1039 01:21:16,030 --> 01:21:17,780 to the church, 1040 01:21:17,990 --> 01:21:19,530 forest to the church, 1041 01:21:19,860 --> 01:21:23,150 until there was no-one left in the church. 1042 01:22:05,150 --> 01:22:07,400 It's always been quiet here. 1043 01:22:08,900 --> 01:22:09,740 Always. 1044 01:22:09,950 --> 01:22:12,400 Even when they were burning people every day, 1045 01:22:12,610 --> 01:22:14,450 or I suppose every other day, 1046 01:22:14,650 --> 01:22:16,950 2,000 people, Jews, 1047 01:22:17,150 --> 01:22:18,610 it was still this quiet. 1048 01:22:21,820 --> 01:22:24,200 There were two chambers here, 1049 01:22:24,400 --> 01:22:27,740 one over there and a second one here, 1050 01:22:27,950 --> 01:22:30,360 and everything was as quiet as you hear now. 1051 01:22:30,570 --> 01:22:33,820 No-one would cry out or anything? 1052 01:22:34,030 --> 01:22:36,530 No, no-one would cry out at all. 1053 01:22:36,740 --> 01:22:38,610 They were all performing their duty. 1054 01:22:39,450 --> 01:22:40,820 All was calm. 1055 01:22:41,030 --> 01:22:42,820 - Calm? - Yes. 1056 01:22:43,570 --> 01:22:45,700 As it is now. 1057 01:23:07,860 --> 01:23:10,320 Can you sing that same Polish tune? 1058 01:23:10,530 --> 01:23:11,780 The same one as before? 1059 01:23:11,990 --> 01:23:13,780 - Now? - Yes. 1060 01:23:15,650 --> 01:23:18,860 There's a little, white house 1061 01:23:19,070 --> 01:23:21,900 I still dream about 1062 01:23:22,700 --> 01:23:25,570 The windows... 1063 01:23:25,780 --> 01:23:27,950 Cut, cut, cut. Something's off. 1064 01:23:28,150 --> 01:23:29,700 I was with a guard, 1065 01:23:30,820 --> 01:23:35,070 an SS soldier stationed at Chelmno. 1066 01:23:35,280 --> 01:23:35,950 OK. 1067 01:23:36,150 --> 01:23:39,490 I'd row the boat 1068 01:23:39,700 --> 01:23:42,990 and look for food for the rabbits. 1069 01:23:43,820 --> 01:23:47,110 When I'd get back to Chelmno, 1070 01:23:47,320 --> 01:23:49,990 I'd go feed the rabbits. 1071 01:23:50,200 --> 01:23:52,900 - You'd go out rowing? - That's right. 1072 01:23:53,820 --> 01:23:57,570 In a skiff, a boat. 1073 01:24:00,070 --> 01:24:02,360 - And you'd sing? - That's right. 1074 01:24:02,570 --> 01:24:04,990 - You'd be ordered to sing? - Come again? 1075 01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:07,320 Were you ordered to sing? 1076 01:24:07,530 --> 01:24:09,530 Yes, it was an order. 1077 01:24:10,610 --> 01:24:12,860 Did others have to sing as well? 1078 01:24:13,070 --> 01:24:15,200 No-one else sang. 1079 01:24:16,280 --> 01:24:18,990 You were the only one. 1080 01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:31,820 - One more time. - The same one? 1081 01:24:32,490 --> 01:24:35,780 There's a little, white house 1082 01:24:35,990 --> 01:24:38,900 I still dream about 1083 01:24:39,570 --> 01:24:42,860 The windows 1084 01:24:43,070 --> 01:24:45,900 Of that little house 1085 01:24:46,450 --> 01:24:49,530 Shine strangely 1086 01:24:49,740 --> 01:24:52,900 In the sun 1087 01:24:53,110 --> 01:24:56,200 Like a pair of eyes 1088 01:24:56,530 --> 01:24:59,320 Full of tears 1089 01:24:59,530 --> 01:25:01,150 We couldn't film what had happened. 1090 01:25:02,860 --> 01:25:03,900 We had to re-enact it. 1091 01:25:08,070 --> 01:25:09,610 I had to grow delirious 1092 01:25:10,450 --> 01:25:12,490 and convince myself nothing had changed. 1093 01:25:16,650 --> 01:25:20,150 Shoah cuts across the distance between past and present. 1094 01:25:31,820 --> 01:25:33,740 I experienced the past in the present. 1095 01:25:36,780 --> 01:25:37,820 Shoah 1096 01:25:38,610 --> 01:25:40,200 looks into the eyes of the witnesses. 1097 01:26:12,990 --> 01:26:13,950 Cut. 1098 01:26:19,740 --> 01:26:22,400 The Shoah saga had started here, in Israel, 1099 01:26:22,610 --> 01:26:23,740 six years earlier. 1100 01:26:26,700 --> 01:26:29,150 I came back here for my final interviews. 1101 01:26:33,990 --> 01:26:35,780 I was almost out of film 1102 01:26:36,570 --> 01:26:38,030 and money to buy more. 1103 01:26:42,700 --> 01:26:44,150 I'd been filming non-stop 1104 01:26:45,070 --> 01:26:48,070 to the point of serious exhaustion. 1105 01:27:02,820 --> 01:27:05,030 Antek, come near me. 1106 01:27:05,950 --> 01:27:07,610 Antek had been second in command 1107 01:27:07,820 --> 01:27:09,570 leading the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. 1108 01:27:11,650 --> 01:27:13,990 Antek, a hero, was a drinker. 1109 01:27:16,150 --> 01:27:18,700 The kibbutz bureaucrats didn't want me to talk to him. 1110 01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:21,900 I gave them my word I wouldn't. 1111 01:27:27,900 --> 01:27:29,700 Can you ask him to stand 1112 01:27:29,900 --> 01:27:31,570 next to you? 1113 01:27:38,610 --> 01:27:41,570 I only really started drinking after the war. 1114 01:27:41,780 --> 01:27:45,610 When I climbed up on the great tomb... 1115 01:27:51,320 --> 01:27:55,070 Claude wanted to know 1116 01:27:56,110 --> 01:27:59,280 how I felt. If he could have licked my heart, 1117 01:27:59,490 --> 01:28:01,110 he would have tasted poison. 1118 01:28:07,110 --> 01:28:09,570 When that great injustice was carried out 1119 01:28:09,780 --> 01:28:11,490 against the Jewish people 1120 01:28:11,820 --> 01:28:15,900 and when we look for symbols, 1121 01:28:16,530 --> 01:28:18,900 be it Antek, 1122 01:28:19,110 --> 01:28:20,990 be it Tsivia, 1123 01:28:21,950 --> 01:28:23,950 be it Morekhay Anilewic, 1124 01:28:24,150 --> 01:28:25,780 they're all heroes. 1125 01:28:27,650 --> 01:28:29,200 The hundreds of people 1126 01:28:29,740 --> 01:28:32,400 whose names have been lost, 1127 01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:36,570 not one of them has written a book. 1128 01:28:42,650 --> 01:28:45,070 The little bit of hardship 1129 01:28:45,280 --> 01:28:46,490 that I'm facing now 1130 01:28:47,650 --> 01:28:49,240 is I'm making a movie 1131 01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:53,860 and I need human faces 1132 01:28:54,530 --> 01:28:56,070 to help tell the story. 1133 01:29:07,400 --> 01:29:09,610 The question to ask is: 1134 01:29:10,150 --> 01:29:12,610 what good can it do, 1135 01:29:12,820 --> 01:29:14,900 this documentary? 1136 01:29:18,530 --> 01:29:22,240 I survived millions. 1137 01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:29,110 All around me, 1138 01:29:30,820 --> 01:29:32,150 not looking, 1139 01:29:35,150 --> 01:29:36,740 are thousands. 1140 01:29:41,240 --> 01:29:42,860 Each one of them... 1141 01:29:44,990 --> 01:29:49,650 Ask yourself if I wish to lose sight of the past. 1142 01:29:51,200 --> 01:29:52,780 Go on. 1143 01:30:01,320 --> 01:30:02,860 For example, 1144 01:30:05,240 --> 01:30:07,570 Hebrew peoples, 1145 01:30:09,030 --> 01:30:13,320 millions of them were sacrificed 1146 01:30:13,530 --> 01:30:15,110 at Treblinka, 1147 01:30:16,900 --> 01:30:18,360 Sobibor, 1148 01:30:19,570 --> 01:30:21,030 Auschwitz. 1149 01:31:34,990 --> 01:31:37,030 I've always felt haunted by the ones 1150 01:31:37,650 --> 01:31:38,650 who died alone, 1151 01:31:39,570 --> 01:31:41,070 far from anyone. 1152 01:31:42,900 --> 01:31:45,070 I wanted the film to bring them back to life 1153 01:31:45,950 --> 01:31:47,570 only to kill them a second time, 1154 01:31:49,400 --> 01:31:50,860 but we would die with them 1155 01:31:52,280 --> 01:31:53,740 so they wouldn't die alone. 1156 01:32:46,320 --> 01:32:51,860 SHOAH TOOK 12 YEARS TO MAKE. THE 9.5-HOUR FILM 1157 01:32:52,070 --> 01:32:56,280 WAS FIRST SCREENED IN APRIL OF 1985. 1158 01:32:59,150 --> 01:33:01,820 IN 2023, SHOAH WAS ADDED TO UNESCO'S 1159 01:33:02,030 --> 01:33:08,530 MEMORY OF THE WORLD REGISTER FOR ITS VITAL DOCUMENTATION. 1160 01:34:43,650 --> 01:34:46,150 Subtitle translation: Timothy Stone