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Downloaded from
YTS.BZ

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Cashier number two, please.

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.BZ

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Hi, are you OK?

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Hello, I'd like to make
a withdrawal please.

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Of course, how much would you like?

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Um, £100,000.

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That would be nice.
How much would it be, though?

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£100,000.

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I can't do £100,000...
Can I have 100,000?

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Sorry, Kate, the gentleman would
like to withdraw £100,000.

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And a book of stamps.

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A book of... I can get a book of
stamps for you, definitely.

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Spinning. Turning over.

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OK. Um, My name is Michael Sheen,
I'm Welsh.

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People describe me as, "Welsh actor
Michael Sheen."

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I've been involved in working around
issues of debt

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and high-cost credit for years now.

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But I've always wanted
to do something big,

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to expose the unfairness of
the system.

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It seems like a never-ending battle

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because the interest is multiplied
and getting bigger and bigger.

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Meanwhile the lenders are making
vast profits from consumer debt.

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I want to see if I can help some
people who are going through

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a tough time,

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and at the same time I

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want to do something that gets
people's attention.

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The plan is that I am

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going to use £100,000
of my own money to try

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and buy a million pounds' worth
of people's debt

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and then just write it off.

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I'm gonna make some enemies
doing this.

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There are people doing very well,
thank you very much,

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out of the way things are.

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If anyone within
the credit industry

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finds out what we're doing, we're
dead in the water.

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I have never done anything like
this before.

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This is a moment.

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This is definitely
a moment where change,

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actual change, could happen.

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You feel like you've seen a lot of
heist films in places like this,

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don't you? Like Ocean's 11.

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Ocean's One, in this case.

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Morning. Morning.

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Well, it's a beautiful morning
isn't it,

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Gorgeous.

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My family all come from here.

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My grandmother was a cleaner.

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She used to clean at
the police station.

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Grandfather had worked in the works.

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You know, it's totally what I
consider to be my home.

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Those are the iconic cranes
of Port Talbot.

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Extraordinary sort of cathedrals of
industry.

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You know, like so many communities
through South Wales,

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the towns themselves got built up
around the industry.

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And so as those industries declined,

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it was a sort of existential moment
of crisis

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for all those communities.

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But it is beautiful.

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Behind the beauty is
a harsh reality.

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More than half
the households in this area

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are classified as deprived.

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Living here has made me aware
that, sometimes,

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life kicks you in the wallet.

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And when that happens,
if you don't have savings,

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your only option is
to borrow money.

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You bump into people,

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and I started hearing about people
in debt,

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you know, for instance

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a family who are like just getting
by, pretty much,

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and something happens like their
washing machine breaks down,

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or if they've got a car,
their car breaks down,

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school uniforms at
the beginning of the year,

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or getting through Christmas,
or whatever it might be.

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But borrowing, even small amounts,

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if you're on a low income,
can be punishing.

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It nearly always involves high
interest rates

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and can lead to debt that's hard
to get out of.

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In October 2024,

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2.2 million low income families
had high cost credit loans.

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Lovely to see you.

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And you. Come on,
you take one of us two,

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and then you take one of us two.

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Oh, thank you.

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This is Bulldogs, a boxing club,
gym and community centre.

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Ceri is the manager.

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We've seen a massive increase in

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the people that are needing
support with the cost of living.

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I have debt and I have a good job.

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I did have three months in savings.

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I don't have that any more.
Yeah, yeah.

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And I've used the food bank at
the end of the month

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because I haven't had any
money left,

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and that's when they're like,
"Oh, let's have a look."

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Think if we can get a credit card
to just plug the gap,

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and then it just snowballs.

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We're not talking about people
with no jobs.

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We're talking about people who
are working

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and earning money

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and just finding it impossible

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to make ends meet from week
to week.

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Ceri is a single mum in full- time
employment,

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who has ended up with £12,000 of
credit card debt

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that she is struggling to repay.

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And she's not alone.

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Last year, 20% of lower income
households in

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the UK reported borrowing money or
using a credit card

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to pay for rent, energy or council
tax.

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Ceri, who runs this place,
you know, even for her,

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she's already putting stuff on her
credit card

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and building up debt there.

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She's exactly the type

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of hard-working person I'd like
to help.

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While people like Ceri dread
the end of each month,

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the banks are, well,
laughing all the way to the bank.

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In 2023, the big four banks made

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a colossal pre-tax profit
of £44.3 billion between them,

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mostly due to the high interest
rates they're charging.

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The UK average credit card
APR is 35.3%.

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The whole system around access

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to credit is skewed against
the people who have the least.

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If you're viewed as risky,
up goes your interest rate.

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Or worse, the banks can refuse to
lend,

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leaving those people in
a desperate situation.

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Nicola? Yes. Hello,
Nicola I'm Michael.

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Nice to meet you.
Yes, nice to meet you.

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Hello, Tony?

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Nicola Harding and Tony Sales are
experts on the dire alternative.

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Oh, It's a grim old day, isn't it?
It is.

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They estimate that more than
a million people across

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the country owe money
to loan sharks.

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So if someone's looking
to get, you know,

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£100, £200 for a few weeks,

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how much is that
going to cost them to do that?

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On the whole it's double.
Wow.

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But we definitely have lenders that
told us that they want you to skip

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a few weeks because
the double then gets doubled.

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So their business model is sort

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of based on making sure that people
aren't able to pay, right? I see.

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There was a young lad about 19-20,
he borrowed £500,

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and erm, he ended up paying back
£5,500. Wow.

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I was quite shocked by some of
the things they would do

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to get their money back, you know,

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whether that be threats,
you know, an arm broken,

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smashing windows, taking cars or,
you know,

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some of the stories we've been told

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have been people being taken up
into woods

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and told to dig their own grave,
you know?

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Maybe you should meet one?

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, would you be able
to put me in touch with someone?

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Yeah, I can try.

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Yeah, yeah. OK.

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Illegal borrowing is just one of
the consequences of

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a lack of affordable credit.

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I want a system that is fair,

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where those in need can access
credit at rates that won't send them

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spiralling into further debt.

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I want to be able to do something
which grabs attention,

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so I can challenge the banks,
the politicians,

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to try and force wider change on
the system to make it fairer.

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I'm prepared to take
a massive financial hit myself

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to try and make it happen.

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So what are you planning to
do, Michael?

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The plan is that I am

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going to use 100,£000
of my own money

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to try and buy a million pounds'
worth of people's debt

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from around here.

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And then once I have brought it,
just write it off.

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So how on earth can I buy
a million pounds of debt

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with just £100,000?

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Well, when banks

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and credit institutions no
longer think

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a personal debt is profitable
for them,

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they'll sell it on.

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And while the borrower still owes
the full amount,

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including fees and
the interest that has built up,

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their debt can be bought for

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a fraction of that amount by
debt collectors.

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Through the opportunities I've had
in my life,

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through my career, you know,

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I've made that conscious decision
to go,

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"Right I'm going to use whatever
I've got

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"to help in whatever way I can."

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I don't want to get to
the end of my time

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and feel like I could have
done more.

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So if I'm gonna stage a debt heist,

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I'm gonna need an HQ like they have
in the movies.

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So I spoke to Neath Port
Talbot Council,

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and they've agreed
to let me hire this.

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Well, it's big enough, for sure.

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Hello!

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Coo! Coo!

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How much money have you got?
Let's go halves on this.

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Right, let's get set up.

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There's no bulb in there.

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Nothing to plug it into.

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Hm. Hm.

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This is absolutely ridiculous.

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But it does have the right vibe.

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I mean, you feel like you've seen

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a lot of sort of heist films in
places like this, don't you?

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00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:20,400
Like Ocean's 11.
Ocean's One in this case.

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Well, that's the HQ sorted
but to make my heist happen,

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I need the help of a specialist.

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So where are we off to?

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00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:35,040
Well, in order to get this done,

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I'm gonna need an inside man,
or it could be a woman,

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but it's not, it's a man.

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So I am going to meet him here.

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00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,760
I'm gonna try not to draw too much
attention to myself.

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00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,960
Hello. You all right?
Nice to see you.

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00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,440
Yeah. Are you well? OK, yes.
Good, good. OK, bye-bye.

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00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,720
Hiya. Hello, you all right? Yeah, good.

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00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:10,680
Doing a great job keeping it on
the down low, aren't I?

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00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:17,840
Hello!

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00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:29,840
Hello, Roland. Good to meet you.

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00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,000
Good to meet you. Come on in.
How you doing?

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00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,080
I'm well, thank you, very well.
Take a seat.

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This is the man who I hope will make

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00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,360
the debt heist possible.

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00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,320
{\an8}Roland Roberts was the director of

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00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,320
{\an8}a debt collection company
for ten years.

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He's the gamekeeper I'm hoping will
turn poacher.

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00:11:48,560 --> 00:11:51,560
So what do we have to do?
How do we do this?

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00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:53,600
There's a few things that we
need to do to get to

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the point where we can do it.

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You have to have
the right licences to be able

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to purchase debt,

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because nobody will sell us
anything unless we're registered.

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00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:01,680
Right.

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00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:04,520
So, we need to set up
a debt-buying company,

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00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:07,280
get approved by
the Financial Conduct Authority

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00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,200
and then find someone willing
to sell us some debt.

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00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,680
Oh, and keep it a secret.

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00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:16,000
The worst thing that can happen is
it gets out

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00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,640
and people don't want to sell to
us,

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which effectively shuts us down.
It'll kill us before we start.

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00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:21,720
Right. Why should they care?

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00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:23,320
Why should they care what we're
going to do with it?

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00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,240
I think there'll just be
a reluctance

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00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:30,120
to have that corner illuminated,
of business.

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00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,600
It's a traditional nervousness
around how they will be portrayed.

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00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,520
Yeah. So then the idea of me,

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00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,280
with my £100,000 buying

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00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,880
a million pounds of people's debt.

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00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:48,160
That is something that is
a possible thing for me to do.

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00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,880
Yes.

249
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,680
There is also a but.

250
00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:55,080
£100,000 - it's not a massive amount

251
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:56,400
in the debt purchase market.

252
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,600
We're talking about
the consumer credit industry -

253
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,080
billions and billions of pounds
being transacted every year.

254
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:02,520
Right, yeah.

255
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,040
In fact, it's estimated that

256
00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,720
the industry is worth £55 billion.

257
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,400
My £100,000 is pocket change
to these guys.

258
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,360
So, how could it work?

259
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,600
OK, so right now might be
a good time

260
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,920
to explain how 100,£000 could ever
possibly buy up

261
00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,400
a million pounds' worth of debt.

262
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:26,640
It's to do with something called

263
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,640
the secondary debt market.

264
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,160
Let me explain using this handy
cardboard cutout

265
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,160
of actor George Clooney,
star of Ocean's Eleven.

266
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,280
Let's say George borrows £100 from

267
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,760
a bank or online lender

268
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,760
with eye-wateringly high APR rate,

269
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,040
and for whatever reason,
George struggles to pay it back.

270
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,360
George's debt, plus whatever interest
or charges he owes,

271
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,840
could get sold on to
a debt-buying company,

272
00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:58,360
and if they can't collect it,

273
00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:03,160
it might get sold on to another
debt-buying company.

274
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,080
And here's the thing -

275
00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,720
each time debt like George's gets
sold on,

276
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,240
it gets cheaper and cheaper to buy.

277
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:13,400
But not for George,

278
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:15,400
who still has to pay
the original debt.

279
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,000
So that's how,
if I can get inside the system,

280
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,280
I might be able to buy up
a million pounds' worth of debt

281
00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:24,920
with only £100,000.

282
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:30,880
I mean, it's a lot of money
for me.

283
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:32,120
It's a shed load.

284
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,320
This is a lot of money.
I mean, this is fake money.

285
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,720
It turns out it's quite hard
to get £100,000 over

286
00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,760
the counter in the post office in
Port Talbot.

287
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,560
But it gives a sense

288
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,160
to me of how much I'm putting on
the line here.

289
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,720
Don't look at it too much.

290
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,880
So why do you want to do this?
Why do you want to help me?

291
00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,920
I think the big picture is, is that
it can't be right that there's

292
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,640
a system where those that are
most vulnerable,

293
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,680
their personal affairs
and their debts,

294
00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,240
have been passed from place
to place to be collected.

295
00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:04,600
And there's that long term,
you know,

296
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:07,320
drip, drip, drip of pressure all
the time.

297
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,600
So you think I can do this?

298
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:15,920
Yes, I think you can. Right.

299
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:23,600
Well, finding out £100,000 is not
very much money is...

300
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,880
It's ah, a little bit bracing.

301
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,000
I mean, it seems like this is
going to be a bit of

302
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:30,680
a minefield in all kinds of ways.

303
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,040
Here's to it.

304
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,480
Yes, I'll be in contact soon, OK?

305
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:35,760
OK, good luck.

306
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,000
Roland also tells me

307
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,200
I'll never know whose debt
I've bought and written off.

308
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,120
Data protection means their details
are rightly kept private.

309
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:45,400
I'm fine with that.

310
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,880
This about making a difference
and making a point.

311
00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,040
There's so much that's unknown
about this,

312
00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,440
knowing that we're setting
the ball rolling now and it's...

313
00:15:55,440 --> 00:15:56,680
It's actually gonna happen.

314
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,440
I'm looking to wipe out
a million pounds of debt,

315
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,560
but I don't think borrowing money is
a bad thing.

316
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:09,440
Lots of people need to borrow money

317
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,800
for everyday expenses like
an MOT bill or school uniforms.

318
00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:16,880
I caught up again with Ceri,

319
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,040
the manager of the Bulldogs Centre.

320
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,600
Unable to make ends meet,

321
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,880
she'd used credit cards to plug
the gap.

322
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,320
The eye-watering interest rates are
ruining her financially.

323
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,080
Her debt has now reached £12,000.

324
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,400
It's really hard because it just
seems like it's

325
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:36,480
a never-ending battle,

326
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,720
because I pay all this money
per month,

327
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,800
but then only half of it's gone on
actually paying off

328
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,000
the debt because of the interest,

329
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,400
and then all of a sudden,
the interest is multiplying

330
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,440
and getting bigger and bigger.

331
00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,040
Ceri is not alone.

332
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:56,480
The average credit card debt per
household in the UK is over £2,500.

333
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,600
Presumably, the money you're earning
for your job is staying the same.

334
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:02,640
Yeah.

335
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,800
Your outgoings are going
up, presumably,

336
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,040
and you're trying to pay off your
debts. Yeah.

337
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,840
But you don't feel like you're
really getting anywhere too much.

338
00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:12,880
No. Right. OK.

339
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,480
Have you ever had any experience
of your debt being sold on?

340
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:17,760
Yes, I have, actually. Oh, really?

341
00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:19,040
So I had a credit card

342
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,320
and that was then sold on to

343
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,920
a third party finance company,

344
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,240
and I got a letter through the
post.

345
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,520
It said something about, "Your debt
is now with us."

346
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:28,560
Was that quite scary?

347
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,560
Yeah, it just was, like, debt.

348
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,360
It like had that all,
like big, big writing over it,

349
00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:36,000
and, "This must be paid."

350
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,360
Just some of the wording that
they used,

351
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:42,600
and I was just like,
Oh, I don't know what to do."

352
00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:44,120
Do you feel that the attitude is that
somehow

353
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:45,160
you've got the money
to pay it off,

354
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,120
but you're just choosing
to spend it on something else?

355
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:49,560
Yeah. Sometimes. I'm like,
no I really want this gone.

356
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:54,360
My ideal situation would be
I've paid off all my debts

357
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:58,280
and I can save, start saving to buy
a house.

358
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,240
I don't know if that will happen.

359
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,560
It's just really tough.
Yeah.

360
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,680
Getting into trouble around debt
and credit is not just

361
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,320
because of people being feckless

362
00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:13,480
and making sort of bad choices.

363
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,640
It's actually as a result of just
things being very difficult.

364
00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:17,880
Now, it might surprise you

365
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,280
to know that there are lenders
offering much more affordable credit

366
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,080
to people like Ceri.

367
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,520
There are companies out there,

368
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,760
small ones called CDFIs
and Credit Unions.

369
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,240
Right now they're not growing at
the rate needed

370
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:35,680
to meet the demand.

371
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,440
But with the right support
from banks,

372
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,680
they could be scaled up

373
00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,880
and become a big part of
the solution in the future.

374
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,600
It's not as if the banks don't have
the money.

375
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,640
In 2023, pre-tax profits at

376
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,920
HSBC's UK operation were £24
billion.

377
00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:00,720
Lloyd's reported a profit after tax
of £5.5 billion -

378
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,320
up 41% from 2022.

379
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,000
If they're doing so well,

380
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,840
why can't they provide more
affordable loans?

381
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:10,440
I'm sure they'll be happy
to explain,

382
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:11,800
so here's hoping one of

383
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,000
the big four UK banks will agree
to meet me.

384
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,040
Everyone's not available.

385
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,360
I mean, I know people are busy,
but, you know,

386
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,720
some people aren't available when
you haven't even said

387
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:23,760
what the dates are.

388
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,640
Sorry. We're gonna decline.

389
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,520
Sorry, thanks. Sorry.
Bye, thanks. Bye.

390
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,760
"Unfortunately, we have had to
decline.

391
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,080
"I hope the rest
of your filming goes well."

392
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,040
I can't tell you which bank that is,

393
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,480
because of various legal things,
but it doesn't matter,

394
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,240
because they've all said that.

395
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,880
You are number seven in the queue.

396
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,760
If you've tried speaking to
a human at your bank,

397
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:50,320
this might not surprise you.

398
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,800
The banks don't want to talk to me,

399
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:55,840
and they certainly don't

400
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,480
want to talk about helping people on
low incomes.

401
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,000
Those at the sharp end in trying

402
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,400
to help argue the banks must do
more.

403
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:05,640
You all right? Nice to meet you.

404
00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:06,680
Nice to meet you.

405
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,680
We've got 20 million people that
are deemed to be in

406
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,640
a financially vulnerable
circumstance

407
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,920
and that's increasing 16% the last
year.

408
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:23,320
The scale of that problem needs big
solutions and fundamental changes.

409
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,080
I mean, one of the obvious places,
I suppose,

410
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,520
is like, well, what's the role
of mainstream lenders,

411
00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,800
high street banks?
What are they doing about this?

412
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,840
Well, they should be playing
a massive part in

413
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,440
the solutions to this.

414
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,840
But beyond, I mean offering
overdrafts,

415
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,240
there's very little in terms
of small value lending,

416
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,560
the banks, building societies,
are offering.

417
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,560
In my opinion, a change in the law is
long overdue.

418
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,760
The Fair Banking Act is something
that we've been championing for

419
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,040
the last 20-odd years.

420
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,880
It would force financial
institutions -

421
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,040
banks, building societies -

422
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,520
to actually make sure that there's
a fair playing field

423
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,400
and people aren't excluded
because of cost or

424
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:07,040
because of their circumstances.

425
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,480
In America of all places,
a similar law

426
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:12,520
forces the banks

427
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,920
to reveal how fairly they're
treating consumers.

428
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,040
This has encouraged them

429
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,640
to provide more affordable lending
to low income households.

430
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,880
If you look at the US, six of

431
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:28,120
the eight largest banks over there
have started providing,

432
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,120
I mean, $500 loans over a couple of
months.

433
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,440
The scheme has strict caps on
interest rates and fees.

434
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,360
Each loan saves the borrower
hundreds of dollars.

435
00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:43,280
And now it's opening up access
to about a million people

436
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,640
to affordable loans where they would
have previously gone

437
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,440
to payday loans
and those type of facilities.

438
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,360
And so it can be done.

439
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,440
I'm not saying everyone in
the US has access

440
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,000
to affordable credit -
there's still a long way to go -

441
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,240
but at least it's a start.

442
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,640
I feel quite fired up after talking
to Gareth.

443
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,920
The Fair Banking Act
requires government

444
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,040
to be courageous
and to be radical and,

445
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,120
and to do, you know,
take a major step,

446
00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:14,280
and I would love to be able to go

447
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,680
and talk to someone about this

448
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,680
and see if we can get a commitment.

449
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,600
It feels like a good time
to meet my inside man

450
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,720
Roland for a progress report on the
heist.

451
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,480
I'm going to make
a wild guess that this may not be

452
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,960
the first time a heist has been
planned in this area.

453
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,840
Hello. Hello, Michael, how are you?

454
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,320
I'm good, how you doing?
Good to see you.

455
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,880
Fine, very well.

456
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,520
So, you got any news for me?

457
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,200
Yes, we've set up the business,

458
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,160
so that's in existence
and registered at Companies House.

459
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,400
We've sent off the application
for the licence.

460
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,240
Right. And we can't actually buy

461
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,320
anything until we've got
the licence.

462
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,600
No, the application process is, you
put all your paperwork together,

463
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,080
and then you have to wait for it
to come back.

464
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,360
Once the licence comes through we can
try

465
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:13,000
and buy personal debt belonging

466
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,520
to hundreds of people in
South Wales.

467
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,480
Is there any chance that that
licence won't come through?

468
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,280
Nothing's 100% certain.

469
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:21,880
OK.

470
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,360
Even with a licence, this
won't be simple.

471
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:26,080
We are after a relatively small

472
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,880
and specific amount
of debt

473
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,160
which could raise questions.

474
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,760
We can't tell them anything
about why.

475
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,320
Yeah, that complicates things.

476
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:35,360
A little bit.

477
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:38,000
See, normally at this point
I would say,

478
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,560
"Just throw my name in
and see if that..."

479
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:41,680
I can't do that.

480
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:42,880
I'd love to do it, but I can't.

481
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,960
That's not going to cut
the mustard.

482
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,480
It might be counter-productive
I think.

483
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:49,520
Now we just sit and wait,

484
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,680
and as soon as that comes through,
I'll let you know.

485
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,680
OK, touch Formica.

486
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,200
Touch Formica. Yeah.

487
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,040
Hello, Roland, it's Michael.
I got your e-mail,

488
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,320
are we all right to have a chat?

489
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,440
It's been six months since I set up
a company to try

490
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,000
and buy a million pounds
of personal debt.

491
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:21,520
I got an e-mail this morning
from Roland,

492
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,440
my inside man, with a little
progress report,

493
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,160
which basically says there has in
fact been very little progress.

494
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:39,000
None, actually, so our company still
doesn't have

495
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,240
a debt-buying licence

496
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,640
and Roland hasn't actually met any
debt sellers yet.

497
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:48,680
So that's a bit of a stress

498
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:53,360
so if things don't move forward
a bit quicker, like at all,

499
00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:58,000
then I'm not entirely sure how this
is gonna work

500
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,720
or indeed actually happen.

501
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:06,920
While of the future of the debt heist
hangs in the balance,

502
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:07,960
I'm talking to more

503
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,200
and more people in my area
of Port Talbot suffering

504
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,720
because they can't access
affordable credit.

505
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:15,840
Well, hello.

506
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:17,080
Hello, you OK?

507
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,880
I'm good, I'm good,
you're hard at work here.

508
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,240
I'm Amy, nice to meet you.
Nice to see you.

509
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,440
So this is a bit different
to nursing, isn't it?

510
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,080
Very, very different.

511
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,680
I'm an assistant nurse
practitioner.

512
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,000
I am also a painter.
I work the two jobs,

513
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,960
mainly because the cost
of living is so, so high.

514
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,360
I hate that last week of
the month before you get paid,

515
00:25:38,360 --> 00:25:40,520
and it's just... you just drag
yourself to

516
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:44,320
the finishing line almost,
and doing the other work,

517
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,080
it just takes that pressure away
a little bit, you know, so?

518
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,880
So, have you had to deal
with debt at all,

519
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:52,280
have you got into debt,

520
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,320
or using credit and that kind of
stuff.?

521
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,040
So I've always avoided loans

522
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,000
and stuff like that as much as
I can.

523
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:59,520
So because of that,

524
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,840
I'm in a position where
I actually can't get myself,

525
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,640
like a credit card or loans
of any kind,

526
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,800
because I haven't got
a credit rating.

527
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:10,520
You know, I had a look the other
week,

528
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,680
because we've got some things
coming up in the next year,

529
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,360
and nobody will have me
because I don't exist.

530
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,960
To them, it looks like I'm
blacklisted so...

531
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,040
Really? Yeah. So because you haven't
had a credit card...

532
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:22,080
because I haven't got...

533
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:23,800
You haven't got into
trouble with anything? No.

534
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:24,880
You just haven't had a credit card.

535
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:26,080
And now that you've gone to look

536
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:27,840
to try and be able
to access credit, you can't.

537
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,240
I can't get it because
I don't exist.

538
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,600
So it's shaped me massively in that
sense that

539
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,360
that's why, you know, that's why I
only ever had one child,

540
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:37,720
because I knew if I had more,

541
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,760
that I potentially couldn't afford
to have more, you know?

542
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,040
STOMACH RUMBLES

543
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,400
Oh, sorry, I haven't eaten.

544
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,160
Oh, no. Sorry, that was really loud.
Do you want a banana?

545
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,280
No I'm fine.
There's a bunch of bananas there.

546
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,440
I don't what's going on,
that was really loud.

547
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,400
It's hard work doing
the painting out there.

548
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,360
It's shocking, shocking,

549
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:02,040
the fact that she's not able
to get credit,

550
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:03,720
not because she's got bad credit
history

551
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:05,720
or she's not been making
payments,

552
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,120
it's because she hasn't got any
credit history,

553
00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:08,480
because she didn't want to be in

554
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,320
the position of getting
into trouble.

555
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,480
You know, someone who's come in
with that kind of mindset

556
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,560
and is punished for it, it's just
crazy.

557
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,280
Between May 2021 and May 2023,

558
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,400
2.8 million low income

559
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,440
households reported being
declined credit.

560
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:30,320
So where does that leave them?

561
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,480
For many - loans sharks.

562
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:33,560
Hello, Tony.

563
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:35,680
And one has agreed to meet me

564
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,920
to explain what his work involves.

565
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,320
How ironic that no legal lender will
speak to me

566
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:46,040
but an illegal one will,
on condition of anonymity.

567
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:51,760
I lend money.

568
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,360
I have done for a long time,
and it works.

569
00:27:55,360 --> 00:27:58,320
I'll try and be firm, but fair.

570
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,680
The purpose is to help,

571
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,160
especially in these times.

572
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,240
I find myself helping more
and more families

573
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,360
and it feels good to do that.

574
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,640
The way he describes it,

575
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,640
there's almost a nobility in what
he's doing.

576
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,840
But his Ts and Cs
suggest otherwise.

577
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,000
You'd have to have a guarantor,

578
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,040
you'd have to have an asset.

579
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,280
So you'd give me like a watch,

580
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,400
or car log book with a key,
and a letter

581
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,400
saying that you've sold
the car to me should you default.

582
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,960
And have you ever had to do anything,
go further than that?

583
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,840
Have you ever had to use intimidation
or violence or anything like that?

584
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,840
I make a nuisance of myself.

585
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,360
No-one likes someone hanging
outside their house. Yeah.

586
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,000
You know, what I mean?

587
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,480
But I'm not going to beat you up for
a grand, right?

588
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,080
Why do you think that what you're
doing is helping people when...

589
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,840
You know, what is it that other
people aren't providing for them,

590
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,400
that you're able to provide?

591
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,240
OK, like, especially now,

592
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:01,560
people are having to make
the decision

593
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,600
of whether they pay their rent or
whether they eat.

594
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,840
It is self-evident that people are
in trouble.

595
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,520
It's not really that they're
just looking for money,

596
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,360
they're looking to survive,

597
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,560
and they're not surviving out
there.

598
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,880
And the banks are a no-go.

599
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,720
Some people are just... it's just not
going to work.

600
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:23,040
It's not even an option.

601
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:27,560
OK. Ready?

602
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,320
Yeah, done, thanks. Thanks, mate.

603
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,680
Well, that wasn't weird in any way
at all, was it?

604
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,280
Scary to know, you know,
what he's up to,

605
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,440
who he really is, what's really
going on there,

606
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,640
in spite of how he might describe
it himself.

607
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,400
But the really scary thing is
that systemically,

608
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,280
the need is so great out there that
people are prepared

609
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,120
to go to him, and people like him.

610
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:59,800
That's what's really scary.

611
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,840
So there's clearly something
wrong there.

612
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,160
You know, there has to be a way to be
able to make this fairer.

613
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,720
There has to be,

614
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,920
because otherwise it's
just infuriating.

615
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:20,960
And clearly wrong.

616
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,920
I've found out there's
a meeting in Westminster about

617
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,360
the proposed Fair Banking Act.

618
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,120
After years of campaigning,

619
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,960
could it finally be on
the government's agenda?

620
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,120
Chairing the meeting is
Labour MP Lloyd Hatton.

621
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,800
Hello.
Lovely to meet you, how are you?

622
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,160
Good, very good.

623
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,360
He is one of parliament's fresh
new faces,

624
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,280
but has he got the stomach
for this fight?

625
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,480
So this fair Banking Act,

626
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,600
what would the remit for that be?

627
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,800
And you know, what would it cover?

628
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,920
We want to know what banks are
doing

629
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,840
and what they're not doing.

630
00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,000
We want to know if

631
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,800
a bank is unfairly excluding
certain customers.

632
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,280
It's a big rebalancing of

633
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,400
the way our banking sector works.

634
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,640
I think the intention
and the goodwill is there

635
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:09,960
with this new government,

636
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,920
but now's the time
to deliver on it.

637
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,480
What I heard in the committee meeting
made a big impression,

638
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,520
so it's a shame we weren't allowed
to film it.

639
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,600
While the proposed law might not
stop people getting into trouble

640
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,320
with debt altogether,

641
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,200
it would force banks
and other lenders

642
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,880
to offer affordable credit
to low-income households.

643
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,400
I think it could be
game-changing, this.

644
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,440
This is a moment,

645
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,440
this is definitely
a moment where actual change

646
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,520
could happen that could really
benefit so many people.

647
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,040
You know, my worry is that this now
gets snarled up in

648
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:48,000
the political process
and could take forever.

649
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,440
You know, we haven't got forever.

650
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,800
Back in Port Talbot,
Roland wants to meet.

651
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,240
It's 18 months since we started
the debt heist

652
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,880
and I am desperate for news.

653
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,840
Hello, stranger. Good to see you.

654
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,720
How are you? Good to see you too.
It's been a while.

655
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,640
Roland tells me we've finally got
the go-ahead to buy debt.

656
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,280
It looks like the heist is on.

657
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:16,560
So you asked me to try

658
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,480
and find you a million pounds worth
of debt

659
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,640
for about £100,000,
and I think I've done it.

660
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:24,960
Great. OK.

661
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,200
OK.

662
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:27,840
Oh, thank you very much. Cheers.

663
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,760
So let me show you what we've got.

664
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:31,800
Right.

665
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,760
So this is debt that belongs

666
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,280
to just normal people,
everyday people?

667
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,560
All consumers, normal,
regular people.

668
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,960
Right, and so what kind of debt?

669
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,320
You've got banking debt,
so that would be overdrafts,

670
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:54,640
credit cards or store cards,
OK, plus personal loans.

671
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,720
And this is debt belonging
to people who all live South Wales...

672
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,920
South Wales corridor,
from the bridge, from all the way...

673
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,400
Newport through to Port
Talbot, Swansea.

674
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:05,680
Yeah, all the way.

675
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,240
And what kind of impact will it have
on people?

676
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:13,280
Well, you'll wipe out 33% minimum
of their overall debt,

677
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,760
because if they owed £10,000,
you know,

678
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,640
you're paying off a third of it.
That's the average.

679
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,440
So these people are going to have

680
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,040
a significant difference made
to their debt position. Right.

681
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,760
OK. And then once I have that,

682
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,400
I'm in a position to sign off
the contracts.

683
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:34,040
Right. I can't quite believe we've
got to this point.

684
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,320
We got there.

685
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,320
Yeah.

686
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,440
After waiting so long,

687
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,320
the reality of what I am able
to do hits home.

688
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,800
We've been doing this for quite
a long time.

689
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,040
And you know,

690
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,000
things have changed in
the sort of landscape of debt,

691
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,040
and things have shifted.

692
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:52,560
But things have sort of changed
for me a lot in

693
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,520
the time that we've been doing this.

694
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,680
I've lost family members during
this time.

695
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,640
I wasn't sure that we would
ever get to this point.

696
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,480
It didn't look like it was
going to happen for a long time.

697
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,080
And financially things have changed.

698
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,080
Ironically, I genuinely am not sure
if I can afford to do this.

699
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,200
But I'm still going to do it,
because I've made a commitment.

700
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,600
Because I know that this problem
isn't going away.

701
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:29,200
We're sitting in a cafe at
the moment with

702
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,840
the steel works right behind us
and

703
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,560
the ladies that work here,
before we started filming,

704
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,200
told me that, like tomorrow is the
last ship,

705
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,240
the last boat load coming into
the dock here

706
00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:42,840
to deliver stuff to the steel works.

707
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,320
And now they've described people
sitting in here

708
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,560
just crying at these tables.

709
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:51,320
And... I'm sorry.

710
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,760
So it couldn't... it couldn't be more
real,

711
00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,760
like how much people are hurting.

712
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,960
It's made me realise that this is,
you know,

713
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,160
you've got to give it a chance,
you've got to give it a go,

714
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,680
and maybe this programme will make
a tiny difference,

715
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,760
or maybe it won't, but I can't walk
away from it now.

716
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,640
High cost credit is ruining
people's lives.

717
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,920
Two years ago I decided
to do something dramatic

718
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,520
to draw attention
to this problem.

719
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,360
Hello, I'd like to make
a withdrawal please.

720
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,720
Of course, how much would you like?
£100,000.

721
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:42,400
That would be nice.

722
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,680
Using £100,000 of my own money
I've managed

723
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,080
to buy £1 million of debt,

724
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:52,080
belonging to nearly 900 people in
South Wales.

725
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:53,120
Here's to it.

726
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,080
If you're watching this then that
means you've just received

727
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,040
a letter saying that personal
debt belonging

728
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,680
to you is now owed to
a different company.

729
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,000
Well, that company is mine.

730
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,720
I'm writing all that debt off,
including yours.

731
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,040
And just like that, it's gone.

732
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,680
I really hope that someone who found
out that

733
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,960
a debt that had been weighing
on them, worrying them,

734
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,360
stressing them out or whatever, has
just gone,

735
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,040
I really hope that that has made
a difference.

736
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,840
But then there's this other
reality where

737
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,920
a million pounds of debt is like
nothing,

738
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,720
it's like a drop in the ocean.

739
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,080
So I really need to make people in
power sit up and take notice.

740
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,760
Household debt of all types in
the UK is forecast

741
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,800
to reach £2.4 billion in 2025.

742
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,120
And still no-one wants
to talk about this.

743
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,960
Lloyds, Barclays, NatWest,
Nationwide and HSBC

744
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,680
have all refused to be interviewed.

745
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,720
UK Finance, the Trade body
representing 300 financial firms,

746
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:12,920
has also declined.

747
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,640
So have the former Conservative

748
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,320
and current Labour Chancellors of
the Exchequer.

749
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,840
That's why I am back in Westminster.

750
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,880
Because until the government makes
the banks responsible

751
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,640
for affordable credit,
the problem will only get worse.

752
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,160
So I've been trying to talk
to someone at

753
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,600
the Treasury about all the fair

754
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,920
and affordable credit stuff
for months now,

755
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,320
and I'm just being blanked.

756
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,080
And I've got try and get them on
board with this Fair Banking Act.

757
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:43,920
So, I'm just thinking,
well, if they won't talk to me,

758
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,520
who will they talk to?

759
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,040
So it needs to be someone who's got

760
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,480
the ear of government,

761
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,840
someone who can get inside
the Treasury

762
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:55,560
and really push these issues for me.

763
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:03,520
So it's someone who
I do have common interest with,

764
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,440
but I'm still gonna really
need to persuade them.

765
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:08,880
So here we go.

766
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,640
Hello. Michael, what a pleasure.
Lovely to see you. How are you?

767
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,800
Great to see you, come and sit down.

768
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,040
{\an8}Gordon Brown bailed out
the banks during

769
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,120
{\an8}the financial crisis of 2008,

770
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,040
{\an8}and you could argue
the banks could have been made

771
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,960
{\an8}to do more as part of that deal.

772
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,800
{\an8}Could he open doors for me now?

773
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,200
15 years ago, you know,

774
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:38,040
obviously the banks got
a lot of help

775
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,920
and huge amounts of money
to help them out when they hit,

776
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:42,840
you know, unexpected waters.

777
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,200
Shouldn't they do the same
for us now?

778
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:46,680
You know, we're not against banks.

779
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:48,320
But we need a banking system that
works for

780
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,000
the people who depend on banks

781
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:51,920
and the people who contribute
to banks.

782
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,160
So banks are making quite big
profits at the moment,

783
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,720
because interest rates are
quite high.

784
00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:59,440
Banks can actually do more on
financial inclusion,

785
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,240
and some do, as you know,
and some want to do more.

786
00:39:02,240 --> 00:39:06,040
Yeah, I mean, the fair Banking Act
would make the banks have

787
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,080
to be transparent about who they're
lending to,

788
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,960
who they're not lending to,

789
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,080
and would make them work to support

790
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,760
the organisations out there who are
helping those people.

791
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,800
So first of all, what you what
you're saying, Michael,

792
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,480
is right that
the banks can't just tell people

793
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,280
"We're not having anything to do
with you."

794
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,480
So we've got to do something
about that.

795
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,880
You're absolutely right. We've got
to look at, transparently,

796
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,840
at what could be excessively
high rates

797
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,480
of interest charged by certain
organisations who seem

798
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,600
to be able to get off with it at
the moment when, clearly,

799
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,880
there are rules that people think
are being applied,

800
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,920
but obviously they can get
through them.

801
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,920
Over the two years that
I've been working on this,

802
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,720
I've tried to engage with
the banks to just start

803
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:50,920
a conversation about this stuff.

804
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,840
I've tried to talk with
the government.

805
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,600
And nobody will talk to me,
nobody. And so I need someone...

806
00:39:58,600 --> 00:39:59,640
Let's do something about that.

807
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,560
Yeah, so I need someone,
like your good self.

808
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,360
I promise you,
we will do something about that.

809
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,000
Would you be able to bring this up,

810
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,680
the fair Banking Act
with Rachel Reeves?

811
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,600
I will ensure that you have

812
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,160
the kind of meetings that are
necessary for you

813
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,200
to get this.

814
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,800
I'm not saying who
I can get to meet.

815
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,600
So will you help me get to talk to

816
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,040
the people that I need to talk to,

817
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,120
to try and get this stuff,

818
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,480
a conversation about this stuff,
to get this change through?

819
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,720
Let's make sure that your voice is
heard in those areas where

820
00:40:24,720 --> 00:40:27,360
legislation or regulations
need to be changed.

821
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:28,560
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Pleasure.

822
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:29,880
Thank you so much, Gordon.

823
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:38,080
The really positive thing is
Gordon has said that he will help me

824
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,560
to have conversations.

825
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,920
I do believe that he will hold
to his word

826
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,880
and having someone like Gordon Brown,

827
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:46,280
kind of opening doors for you is

828
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,520
a massive help when it comes
to things like this,

829
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,400
and that's incredibly encouraging.

830
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:51,440
It means that, you know,

831
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:53,280
in terms of the nuts
and bolts of this,

832
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,000
I can move this steps forward,

833
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,880
big steps forward
to what I've been able to do over

834
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,040
the last two years.

835
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,680
So that's a result.

836
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,720
Back in Port Talbot,

837
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:18,840
I want to catch up with some of

838
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,640
the people who inspired me at

839
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,760
the beginning of this journey.

840
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:24,440
So I'm back at Bulldogs,

841
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,400
the boxing gym and community centre.

842
00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:31,560
Hello, how are you nice to see you.

843
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,800
Hello, nice to see you.
What's been going on for you?

844
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,080
So since we last spoke,

845
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,000
I've drastically changed how
I view money.

846
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,720
And I really think that this
process,

847
00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:44,640
has been the catalyst of that.

848
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,520
You know you had the dream of,

849
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,560
of maybe a house in the future,
are you any closer to that?

850
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:55,760
Not really any closer,
but I feel like it could happen.

851
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,720
I've moved back in with my parents
so I can save.

852
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:02,400
I really do feel like it's on
the horizon. Yeah.

853
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:07,840
And eventually I will own that
house, that is so important to me.

854
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,040
Yeah.

855
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:10,760
Hi, you OK? Hiya, yeah good,

856
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,520
and you're not in your overalls
this time.

857
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:14,080
Nope, I haven't done that for
a little while now.

858
00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,160
Nope, you're not doing that any more?

859
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,200
No, I had to pack it in.

860
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,160
Yeah, just for work life balance,
wasn't having any at all.

861
00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,120
Yeah, yeah.
But I mean you were doing that

862
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:24,880
because of the sort
of financial situation you were in,

863
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,320
so how has that affected things
for you?

864
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,920
Oh, massive effect,
I just had to adapt again.

865
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,640
You know, how are you feeling in
yourself

866
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,040
about where things are at the moment
for you?

867
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:35,640
I'm happy and I'm healthy,

868
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,440
I think that's a massive part of
it.

869
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:38,920
Life's short, you only do it once.

870
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,600
You've gotta make the most of what
you've got, and that's what I do.

871
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:43,640
Brilliant.

872
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,200
Sorry to interrupt tea
and coffee and sandwiches,

873
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,320
but I just wanted to have
a quick word if that's all right.

874
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,840
About two years ago now I started
a campaign.

875
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,280
I called it a heist.

876
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,320
What I was trying to do was
to infiltrate

877
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,560
the consumer credit industry

878
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,520
and I've bought

879
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,640
a million pounds' worth
of people's debt in this community

880
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,960
and in communities in south Wales

881
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:16,880
and I've managed
to write off 900 personal debts.

882
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,360
You know, it's a gesture that you
wouldn't expect from anyone,

883
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:20,760
nobody's got to do that kind
of thing

884
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,280
and the fact that he has is
a huge thing, isn't it?

885
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:25,880
Partly to prove that it can be done,

886
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,640
you know, wanting to help,

887
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,680
but I suppose more important than
anything is to make

888
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:36,400
a statement to say that we need
a fair credit system.

889
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:38,680
And I have come across
something called

890
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,640
the Fair Banking Act,
which I'm trying to get behind,

891
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,160
and get the government to implement,

892
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:49,120
which would force banks
to reveal who they are loaning

893
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,400
to and who they are not lending to.

894
00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,840
It would make them accountable.

895
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:54,880
I think it's amazing,

896
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,200
and if there was more people like
Michael, gosh,

897
00:43:58,200 --> 00:43:59,680
the world would be a better place.

898
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,840
He's not one for sitting on
his backside,

899
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,400
he will dig and research
and take action.

900
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,960
So this is not the end by any means,

901
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,560
there's a lot to do,
there's a long journey ahead,

902
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:15,320
but thank you for being part of this
journey.

903
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,960
So enjoy the cake, enjoy the
sandwiches, all right?

904
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,000
Good to see you.

905
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:38,920
In terms of the heist,
this sort of madcap idea you had,

906
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,560
you pulled it off.
How do you feel about that?

907
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,120
Ah, yeah, yeah we pulled it off.

908
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,000
This is about more than just,
you know,

909
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,880
writing off some people's debts,

910
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,960
as much as that can help people
and I hope it does.

911
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:05,640
But this is about something that has
to change everything.

912
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,560
The whole way we look at
these issues,

913
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,880
and that's a long road,
that's a long road.

914
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:17,400
You've got to keep putting one foot
in front of

915
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,280
the other and doing what you can,

916
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,560
and that's how you change laws or
that's how you get

917
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:23,680
the banking industry

918
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,920
to change what they're doing,
you know?

919
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,360
One brick at a time.

920
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,520
But it's going to change. It has to.

921
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:40,080
It has to.

922
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,600
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