1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.MX 2 00:00:06,375 --> 00:00:07,895 MAN: That day never leaves you. 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.MX 4 00:00:09,255 --> 00:00:11,255 You think about it every second of every day. 5 00:00:11,295 --> 00:00:12,015 You think about it every second of every day. 6 00:00:15,735 --> 00:00:17,735 But we'll be out and, "Oh, Olly would love that," 7 00:00:17,775 --> 00:00:18,015 But we'll be out and, "Oh, Olly would love that," 8 00:00:18,055 --> 00:00:19,535 or, "Olly would do that," 9 00:00:19,575 --> 00:00:21,575 or, you know, that kind of stuff is always in your head. 10 00:00:21,615 --> 00:00:23,015 or, you know, that kind of stuff is always in your head. 11 00:00:26,815 --> 00:00:27,975 Olly was 13... 12 00:00:29,695 --> 00:00:31,695 ..and the two boys that murdered Olly, they were 13 and 14. 13 00:00:31,735 --> 00:00:33,735 ..and the two boys that murdered Olly, they were 13 and 14. 14 00:00:33,775 --> 00:00:34,135 ..and the two boys that murdered Olly, they were 13 and 14. 15 00:00:38,335 --> 00:00:40,335 I don't understand what makes a child think that murder's OK. 16 00:00:40,375 --> 00:00:42,175 I don't understand what makes a child think that murder's OK. 17 00:00:57,735 --> 00:00:59,735 REPORTER:One of them sent a message after the stabbing saying, 18 00:00:59,775 --> 00:01:00,575 REPORTER:One of them sent a message after the stabbing saying, 19 00:01:00,615 --> 00:01:02,135 "It is what it is." 20 00:01:02,175 --> 00:01:04,175 But how did they get the knife, and what led them to use it? 21 00:01:04,215 --> 00:01:05,455 But how did they get the knife, and what led them to use it? 22 00:01:08,455 --> 00:01:10,455 REPORTER:The number of young people being sentenced for murder 23 00:01:10,495 --> 00:01:11,055 REPORTER:The number of young people being sentenced for murder 24 00:01:11,095 --> 00:01:13,095 has soared over the last decade. 25 00:01:13,135 --> 00:01:13,295 has soared over the last decade. 26 00:01:15,895 --> 00:01:17,895 WOMAN:We want to know whether the 12-year-old boys 27 00:01:17,935 --> 00:01:18,215 WOMAN:We want to know whether the 12-year-old boys 28 00:01:18,255 --> 00:01:20,255 who committed murder with a machete, whether they should be named. 29 00:01:20,295 --> 00:01:20,695 who committed murder with a machete, whether they should be named. 30 00:01:25,215 --> 00:01:27,215 MAN: I cry. I cry every day and at night. 31 00:01:27,255 --> 00:01:29,255 MAN: I cry. I cry every day and at night. 32 00:01:29,295 --> 00:01:31,295 You know, I just take one day at a time. 33 00:01:31,335 --> 00:01:31,535 You know, I just take one day at a time. 34 00:01:32,375 --> 00:01:34,375 MAN:You, get down on the ground, down on the ground right now! 35 00:01:34,415 --> 00:01:34,815 MAN:You, get down on the ground, down on the ground right now! 36 00:01:36,775 --> 00:01:38,695 CALL HANDLER: 'Is there any serious bleeding?' 37 00:01:38,735 --> 00:01:40,735 CALLER:'Yes, very serious.' 38 00:01:40,775 --> 00:01:41,295 CALLER:'Yes, very serious.' 39 00:01:41,335 --> 00:01:43,335 {\an8}Social media is featuring far too frequently 40 00:01:43,375 --> 00:01:43,655 {\an8}Social media is featuring far too frequently 41 00:01:43,695 --> 00:01:45,695 {\an8}in incidents of murder and serious violence in this country. 42 00:01:45,735 --> 00:01:46,655 {\an8}in incidents of murder and serious violence in this country. 43 00:01:46,695 --> 00:01:48,695 MAN:We really can't underestimate 44 00:01:48,735 --> 00:01:48,975 MAN:We really can't underestimate 45 00:01:49,015 --> 00:01:51,015 how social media's impacted our young people. 46 00:01:51,055 --> 00:01:51,415 how social media's impacted our young people. 47 00:01:51,455 --> 00:01:53,335 It's a wake-up call. 48 00:01:53,375 --> 00:01:55,375 MAN:This is as serious as it gets, yeah? OK? 49 00:01:55,415 --> 00:01:55,775 MAN:This is as serious as it gets, yeah? OK? 50 00:01:55,815 --> 00:01:57,815 MAN:Had anybody threatened you? No comment. 51 00:01:57,855 --> 00:01:58,135 MAN:Had anybody threatened you? No comment. 52 00:01:59,215 --> 00:02:01,215 I shouldn't be standing here talking about children carrying knives 53 00:02:01,255 --> 00:02:03,255 I shouldn't be standing here talking about children carrying knives 54 00:02:03,295 --> 00:02:03,975 I shouldn't be standing here talking about children carrying knives 55 00:02:04,015 --> 00:02:06,015 and using them against other children. 56 00:02:06,055 --> 00:02:06,615 and using them against other children. 57 00:02:07,695 --> 00:02:09,575 MAN:If children this young can commit murder, 58 00:02:09,615 --> 00:02:11,615 where does this leave us as society? 59 00:02:11,655 --> 00:02:11,855 where does this leave us as society? 60 00:02:11,895 --> 00:02:13,895 Armed police! 61 00:02:13,935 --> 00:02:15,935 Show me your hands now! 62 00:02:15,975 --> 00:02:16,135 Show me your hands now! 63 00:02:33,775 --> 00:02:35,775 {\an8}MAN: 'Two 12-year-old boys appeared in court today charged with murder. 64 00:02:35,815 --> 00:02:37,815 {\an8}MAN: 'Two 12-year-old boys appeared in court today charged with murder. 65 00:02:37,855 --> 00:02:38,255 {\an8}MAN: 'Two 12-year-old boys appeared in court today charged with murder. 66 00:02:38,295 --> 00:02:40,295 {\an8}'Yes, you heard right, 12 years old.' 67 00:02:40,335 --> 00:02:40,575 {\an8}'Yes, you heard right, 12 years old.' 68 00:02:42,695 --> 00:02:44,695 A case that's really caught the public attention recently 69 00:02:44,735 --> 00:02:45,375 A case that's really caught the public attention recently 70 00:02:45,415 --> 00:02:47,415 is the killing of Shawn Seesahai. 71 00:02:47,455 --> 00:02:47,815 is the killing of Shawn Seesahai. 72 00:02:50,495 --> 00:02:52,495 So, he was 19 years old, but shockingly, he was killed. 73 00:02:52,535 --> 00:02:54,215 So, he was 19 years old, but shockingly, he was killed. 74 00:02:54,255 --> 00:02:56,255 He was stabbed by two 12-year-olds in Wolverhampton, 75 00:02:56,295 --> 00:02:57,255 He was stabbed by two 12-year-olds in Wolverhampton, 76 00:02:57,295 --> 00:02:59,295 and these two individuals are the youngest convicted killers in the UK 77 00:02:59,335 --> 00:03:01,335 and these two individuals are the youngest convicted killers in the UK 78 00:03:01,375 --> 00:03:01,695 and these two individuals are the youngest convicted killers in the UK 79 00:03:01,735 --> 00:03:03,095 since the killing of James Bulger 80 00:03:03,135 --> 00:03:05,135 when the perpetrators were ten years old. 81 00:03:05,175 --> 00:03:05,375 when the perpetrators were ten years old. 82 00:03:10,055 --> 00:03:11,575 REPORTER: 'On the night he was killed, 83 00:03:11,615 --> 00:03:13,615 'Shawn and a friend bought soft drinks at a petrol station 84 00:03:13,655 --> 00:03:14,175 'Shawn and a friend bought soft drinks at a petrol station 85 00:03:14,215 --> 00:03:16,215 'before heading to a park. 86 00:03:16,255 --> 00:03:16,495 'before heading to a park. 87 00:03:16,535 --> 00:03:18,535 'In CCTV, you can just about see them approaching a bench 88 00:03:18,575 --> 00:03:19,975 'In CCTV, you can just about see them approaching a bench 89 00:03:20,015 --> 00:03:22,015 'where they had a disagreement with the two 12-year-olds.' 90 00:03:22,055 --> 00:03:23,775 'where they had a disagreement with the two 12-year-olds.' 91 00:03:23,815 --> 00:03:25,815 REPORTER:'One of the boys pulled out a 16-inch machete 92 00:03:25,855 --> 00:03:26,655 REPORTER:'One of the boys pulled out a 16-inch machete 93 00:03:26,695 --> 00:03:28,695 'and stabbed Shawn, the other punched and stamped on his head.' 94 00:03:28,735 --> 00:03:30,575 'and stabbed Shawn, the other punched and stamped on his head.' 95 00:03:32,415 --> 00:03:34,415 DR DAS:It has to be said that social media played a big part 96 00:03:34,455 --> 00:03:35,295 DR DAS:It has to be said that social media played a big part 97 00:03:35,335 --> 00:03:37,335 in this particular incident 98 00:03:37,375 --> 00:03:37,695 in this particular incident 99 00:03:37,735 --> 00:03:39,735 because both of the perpetrators were showing off to each other 100 00:03:39,775 --> 00:03:40,735 because both of the perpetrators were showing off to each other 101 00:03:40,775 --> 00:03:42,775 about possessing knives and wanting to use them, 102 00:03:42,815 --> 00:03:43,495 about possessing knives and wanting to use them, 103 00:03:43,535 --> 00:03:45,535 {\an8}so it felt like they were literally just waiting for an opportunity 104 00:03:45,575 --> 00:03:46,455 {\an8}so it felt like they were literally just waiting for an opportunity 105 00:03:46,495 --> 00:03:48,495 {\an8}to attack anybody, some random stranger. 106 00:03:48,535 --> 00:03:49,015 {\an8}to attack anybody, some random stranger. 107 00:03:49,055 --> 00:03:51,055 But it's the intention to go close to that person and take their life. 108 00:03:51,095 --> 00:03:53,095 But it's the intention to go close to that person and take their life. 109 00:03:53,135 --> 00:03:54,175 But it's the intention to go close to that person and take their life. 110 00:03:54,215 --> 00:03:56,215 Cos remember, especially when it comes to knife crime, 111 00:03:56,255 --> 00:03:56,895 Cos remember, especially when it comes to knife crime, 112 00:03:56,935 --> 00:03:58,215 there's a proximity. 113 00:03:58,255 --> 00:04:00,095 You gotta get in that personal space. 114 00:04:01,175 --> 00:04:02,935 DR DAS:Another chilling aspect to this case 115 00:04:02,975 --> 00:04:04,975 was that the perpetrators were messaging each other 116 00:04:05,015 --> 00:04:05,295 was that the perpetrators were messaging each other 117 00:04:05,335 --> 00:04:07,335 after the event, and one of them apparently wrote "IDRC", 118 00:04:07,375 --> 00:04:08,895 after the event, and one of them apparently wrote "IDRC", 119 00:04:08,935 --> 00:04:10,895 which stands for "I don't really care". 120 00:04:10,935 --> 00:04:12,935 So that just really shows just the callousness 121 00:04:12,975 --> 00:04:13,935 So that just really shows just the callousness 122 00:04:13,975 --> 00:04:15,495 and the lack of empathy that they had. 123 00:04:17,015 --> 00:04:19,015 I think when we have these horrendous, shocking cases, 124 00:04:19,055 --> 00:04:20,415 I think when we have these horrendous, shocking cases, 125 00:04:20,455 --> 00:04:22,455 it kind of alarms us as a society 126 00:04:22,495 --> 00:04:22,735 it kind of alarms us as a society 127 00:04:22,775 --> 00:04:24,455 and we start asking ourselves questions. 128 00:04:24,495 --> 00:04:26,495 {\an8}If children this young could do something that heinous, 129 00:04:26,535 --> 00:04:27,575 {\an8}If children this young could do something that heinous, 130 00:04:27,615 --> 00:04:29,615 {\an8}then where does that leave us as society? 131 00:04:29,655 --> 00:04:30,095 {\an8}then where does that leave us as society? 132 00:04:31,655 --> 00:04:33,655 OVER PHONE:'They're running about with machetes. 133 00:04:33,695 --> 00:04:34,295 OVER PHONE:'They're running about with machetes. 134 00:04:34,335 --> 00:04:35,935 'What are their parents doing?' 135 00:04:35,975 --> 00:04:37,975 'If somebody had killed my child, I'd want 'em named and shamed.' 136 00:04:38,015 --> 00:04:39,935 'If somebody had killed my child, I'd want 'em named and shamed.' 137 00:04:39,975 --> 00:04:41,775 'They're feral, these kids are feral.' 138 00:04:51,255 --> 00:04:53,255 {\an8}Whatever statistics I hear, whether it's knife crime possessions, 139 00:04:53,295 --> 00:04:55,295 {\an8}Whatever statistics I hear, whether it's knife crime possessions, 140 00:04:55,335 --> 00:04:55,615 {\an8}Whatever statistics I hear, whether it's knife crime possessions, 141 00:04:55,655 --> 00:04:57,655 {\an8}whether it's murders, those convicted of murders, 142 00:04:57,695 --> 00:04:57,975 {\an8}whether it's murders, those convicted of murders, 143 00:04:58,015 --> 00:05:00,015 any statistics I've heard over the last ten years, 144 00:05:00,055 --> 00:05:00,855 any statistics I've heard over the last ten years, 145 00:05:00,895 --> 00:05:02,895 they're all going more or less in the wrong direction. 146 00:05:02,935 --> 00:05:03,775 they're all going more or less in the wrong direction. 147 00:05:05,095 --> 00:05:07,095 {\an8}The fact that you've got younger suspects and victims, 148 00:05:07,135 --> 00:05:09,135 {\an8}The fact that you've got younger suspects and victims, 149 00:05:09,175 --> 00:05:09,495 {\an8}The fact that you've got younger suspects and victims, 150 00:05:09,535 --> 00:05:11,535 {\an8}and it's not just confined to... 151 00:05:11,575 --> 00:05:12,855 {\an8}and it's not just confined to... 152 00:05:12,895 --> 00:05:14,895 those crime hotspots, the deprived areas, 153 00:05:14,935 --> 00:05:15,735 those crime hotspots, the deprived areas, 154 00:05:15,775 --> 00:05:17,775 it's now coming into all sorts of well-to-do areas 155 00:05:17,815 --> 00:05:19,815 it's now coming into all sorts of well-to-do areas 156 00:05:19,855 --> 00:05:21,015 it's now coming into all sorts of well-to-do areas 157 00:05:21,055 --> 00:05:22,415 where you would never see this. 158 00:05:22,455 --> 00:05:24,455 It can happen anywhere, and it can happen to anyone. 159 00:05:24,495 --> 00:05:26,055 It can happen anywhere, and it can happen to anyone. 160 00:05:48,855 --> 00:05:50,455 MAN:We felt quite safe here. 161 00:05:53,295 --> 00:05:55,295 Everybody gets on, everybody knows everybody by sight, 162 00:05:55,335 --> 00:05:56,335 Everybody gets on, everybody knows everybody by sight, 163 00:05:56,375 --> 00:05:57,695 everybody says hello. 164 00:06:01,895 --> 00:06:03,895 Everybody knew Olly cos he was out on his bike all the time, 165 00:06:03,935 --> 00:06:04,255 Everybody knew Olly cos he was out on his bike all the time, 166 00:06:04,295 --> 00:06:06,175 up and down the street causing havoc. 167 00:06:06,215 --> 00:06:08,215 So, you know, he was well-known by everybody. 168 00:06:08,255 --> 00:06:09,055 So, you know, he was well-known by everybody. 169 00:06:11,775 --> 00:06:13,775 By that token, we knew everybody else's children, 170 00:06:13,815 --> 00:06:14,295 By that token, we knew everybody else's children, 171 00:06:14,335 --> 00:06:16,335 so, you know, you felt that your kids were quite safe in this area. 172 00:06:16,375 --> 00:06:18,095 so, you know, you felt that your kids were quite safe in this area. 173 00:06:20,455 --> 00:06:22,455 His last year of primary school, he was struggling. 174 00:06:22,495 --> 00:06:22,775 His last year of primary school, he was struggling. 175 00:06:22,815 --> 00:06:24,535 He couldn't understand what he had to do. 176 00:06:24,575 --> 00:06:26,415 He didn't have... He almost, like... 177 00:06:26,455 --> 00:06:28,455 He felt like his brain wasn't working properly. 178 00:06:28,495 --> 00:06:29,095 He felt like his brain wasn't working properly. 179 00:06:29,135 --> 00:06:31,135 It was that morning, actually, we were chatting to him about that, 180 00:06:31,175 --> 00:06:32,535 It was that morning, actually, we were chatting to him about that, 181 00:06:32,575 --> 00:06:34,575 and he kind of accepted the fact that he had autism, 182 00:06:34,615 --> 00:06:35,975 and he kind of accepted the fact that he had autism, 183 00:06:36,015 --> 00:06:38,015 but it wasn't severe autism, 184 00:06:38,055 --> 00:06:39,375 but it wasn't severe autism, 185 00:06:39,415 --> 00:06:41,415 but he was on the spectrum, definitely. 186 00:06:41,455 --> 00:06:41,735 but he was on the spectrum, definitely. 187 00:06:41,775 --> 00:06:43,455 And it made it difficult for him to learn. 188 00:06:45,335 --> 00:06:47,095 He would do everything feet first 189 00:06:47,135 --> 00:06:49,135 and not worry about the consequences, 190 00:06:49,175 --> 00:06:49,455 and not worry about the consequences, 191 00:06:49,495 --> 00:06:51,495 but part of being on the spectrum, you don't understand danger, 192 00:06:51,535 --> 00:06:51,775 but part of being on the spectrum, you don't understand danger, 193 00:06:51,815 --> 00:06:53,815 so they don't have red flags. 194 00:06:53,855 --> 00:06:54,375 so they don't have red flags. 195 00:07:00,255 --> 00:07:02,255 It was January the third, that was a Sunday, 196 00:07:02,295 --> 00:07:03,335 It was January the third, that was a Sunday, 197 00:07:03,375 --> 00:07:05,015 we were going back to work on the Monday 198 00:07:05,055 --> 00:07:07,055 so we were preoccupied with going back to work. 199 00:07:07,095 --> 00:07:07,375 so we were preoccupied with going back to work. 200 00:07:07,415 --> 00:07:09,415 It was COVID. Christmas wasn't the same, you know. 201 00:07:09,455 --> 00:07:11,255 It was COVID. Christmas wasn't the same, you know. 202 00:07:11,295 --> 00:07:13,295 I had a chat with him cos work was stressful, and I said, 203 00:07:13,335 --> 00:07:13,575 I had a chat with him cos work was stressful, and I said, 204 00:07:13,615 --> 00:07:14,935 "Look, I know work's been stressful 205 00:07:14,975 --> 00:07:16,975 "and Christmas wasn't that great this year, you know, 206 00:07:17,015 --> 00:07:17,295 "and Christmas wasn't that great this year, you know, 207 00:07:17,335 --> 00:07:19,335 "so we'll make up for it during the summer." 208 00:07:19,375 --> 00:07:19,615 "so we'll make up for it during the summer." 209 00:07:19,655 --> 00:07:21,055 So, we made plans, you know, 210 00:07:21,095 --> 00:07:23,095 "Yeah, we'll do that, once the world gets back on its feet, 211 00:07:23,135 --> 00:07:23,375 "Yeah, we'll do that, once the world gets back on its feet, 212 00:07:23,415 --> 00:07:24,735 "we'll do all these things." 213 00:07:26,695 --> 00:07:28,495 He helped me with some chores in the morning. 214 00:07:28,535 --> 00:07:30,535 We had a few laughs, and we were messing around. 215 00:07:30,575 --> 00:07:31,215 We had a few laughs, and we were messing around. 216 00:07:32,855 --> 00:07:34,855 And, so, yeah, all that stuff was going on, 217 00:07:34,895 --> 00:07:35,575 And, so, yeah, all that stuff was going on, 218 00:07:35,615 --> 00:07:37,615 and then Olly had gone outside, I heard him leave. 219 00:07:37,655 --> 00:07:39,655 and then Olly had gone outside, I heard him leave. 220 00:07:39,695 --> 00:07:39,975 and then Olly had gone outside, I heard him leave. 221 00:07:40,015 --> 00:07:42,015 Olly was going out to meet somebody that we knew. 222 00:07:42,055 --> 00:07:43,535 Olly was going out to meet somebody that we knew. 223 00:07:45,935 --> 00:07:47,935 And he went out with his sliders on. He didn't suspect anything. 224 00:07:47,975 --> 00:07:48,895 And he went out with his sliders on. He didn't suspect anything. 225 00:07:55,295 --> 00:07:57,295 And he went over there, out to the field. 226 00:07:57,335 --> 00:07:58,415 And he went over there, out to the field. 227 00:08:00,095 --> 00:08:01,615 {\an8}He got to the field. 228 00:08:01,655 --> 00:08:03,655 {\an8}He saw a girl, he had a conversation with her, 229 00:08:03,695 --> 00:08:05,575 {\an8}He saw a girl, he had a conversation with her, 230 00:08:05,615 --> 00:08:07,615 {\an8}and then the other two came running up the hill and jumped him. 231 00:08:07,655 --> 00:08:09,655 {\an8}and then the other two came running up the hill and jumped him. 232 00:08:09,695 --> 00:08:09,895 {\an8}and then the other two came running up the hill and jumped him. 233 00:08:13,095 --> 00:08:14,615 KNOCKING 234 00:08:14,655 --> 00:08:16,655 And there was a knock on the door. 235 00:08:16,695 --> 00:08:16,975 And there was a knock on the door. 236 00:08:17,015 --> 00:08:19,015 And I just heard Amanda scream, 237 00:08:19,055 --> 00:08:19,295 And I just heard Amanda scream, 238 00:08:19,335 --> 00:08:21,335 and, you know, "What do you mean, he's been stabbed?" 239 00:08:21,375 --> 00:08:22,255 and, you know, "What do you mean, he's been stabbed?" 240 00:08:26,255 --> 00:08:28,255 And then I just flew down the stairs, 241 00:08:28,295 --> 00:08:28,535 And then I just flew down the stairs, 242 00:08:28,575 --> 00:08:30,575 and I just ran over the field. 243 00:08:30,615 --> 00:08:30,815 and I just ran over the field. 244 00:08:30,855 --> 00:08:31,935 I didn't have any shoes on. 245 00:08:35,255 --> 00:08:37,135 And I just saw everybody stood around him, 246 00:08:37,175 --> 00:08:39,175 and he was having CPR at that point. 247 00:08:39,215 --> 00:08:39,855 and he was having CPR at that point. 248 00:08:42,215 --> 00:08:44,215 It's like your head's in a washing machine, 249 00:08:44,255 --> 00:08:44,535 It's like your head's in a washing machine, 250 00:08:44,575 --> 00:08:46,575 y-you're in shock, you're in disbelief, you know, 251 00:08:46,615 --> 00:08:47,815 y-you're in shock, you're in disbelief, you know, 252 00:08:47,855 --> 00:08:49,215 there's the horror, 253 00:08:49,255 --> 00:08:51,255 and I managed to push people out of the way and get hold of his hand. 254 00:08:51,295 --> 00:08:52,175 and I managed to push people out of the way and get hold of his hand. 255 00:08:55,975 --> 00:08:57,215 But when I felt his hand, 256 00:08:57,255 --> 00:08:59,255 because an hour earlier, his hands had been warm... 257 00:08:59,295 --> 00:08:59,495 because an hour earlier, his hands had been warm... 258 00:09:00,815 --> 00:09:02,815 ..his hand was stone cold, so I knew he was gone. 259 00:09:02,855 --> 00:09:03,335 ..his hand was stone cold, so I knew he was gone. 260 00:09:10,735 --> 00:09:12,735 There's a fog around the whole day for us. 261 00:09:12,775 --> 00:09:12,975 There's a fog around the whole day for us. 262 00:09:13,895 --> 00:09:15,895 You know, one minute, he's here, the next minute, they're not. 263 00:09:15,935 --> 00:09:16,815 You know, one minute, he's here, the next minute, they're not. 264 00:09:17,975 --> 00:09:19,975 The shock, you're just like a zombie. 265 00:09:20,015 --> 00:09:20,215 The shock, you're just like a zombie. 266 00:09:22,015 --> 00:09:24,015 You can't sleep. You don't sleep... 267 00:09:24,055 --> 00:09:24,215 You can't sleep. You don't sleep... 268 00:09:25,455 --> 00:09:27,455 ..and I was looking out my bedroom window, 269 00:09:27,495 --> 00:09:29,495 the same window that I watched him leave, 270 00:09:29,535 --> 00:09:30,615 the same window that I watched him leave, 271 00:09:30,655 --> 00:09:32,655 three o'clock in the morning, all the police tents were up, 272 00:09:32,695 --> 00:09:33,975 three o'clock in the morning, all the police tents were up, 273 00:09:34,015 --> 00:09:35,255 and the field was sealed off, 274 00:09:35,295 --> 00:09:37,175 and there were police on every exit and entrance. 275 00:09:39,055 --> 00:09:40,375 REPORTER:'Those that knew him 276 00:09:40,415 --> 00:09:42,175 'have been laying flowers at the scene 277 00:09:42,215 --> 00:09:44,215 'as police have continued to scour the fields 278 00:09:44,255 --> 00:09:44,975 'as police have continued to scour the fields 279 00:09:45,015 --> 00:09:47,015 'where the schoolboy was found, 280 00:09:47,055 --> 00:09:47,295 'where the schoolboy was found, 281 00:09:47,335 --> 00:09:49,335 'forensic experts documenting every potential clue.' 282 00:09:49,375 --> 00:09:51,335 'forensic experts documenting every potential clue.' 283 00:09:51,375 --> 00:09:53,135 There were a lot of people out there 284 00:09:53,175 --> 00:09:55,175 that couldn't understand why this had happened to Olly either. 285 00:09:55,215 --> 00:09:55,655 that couldn't understand why this had happened to Olly either. 286 00:09:57,615 --> 00:09:59,615 But there's a whole chain of events building up to this moment. 287 00:09:59,655 --> 00:10:00,935 But there's a whole chain of events building up to this moment. 288 00:10:00,975 --> 00:10:02,975 Social media was massive in this. 289 00:10:03,015 --> 00:10:03,335 Social media was massive in this. 290 00:10:06,775 --> 00:10:08,775 BOY ON RECORDING:'You've got poison in your heart, fam. 291 00:10:08,815 --> 00:10:09,055 BOY ON RECORDING:'You've got poison in your heart, fam. 292 00:10:09,095 --> 00:10:11,095 'Olly, you're gonna die tomorrow.' 293 00:10:11,135 --> 00:10:11,775 'Olly, you're gonna die tomorrow.' 294 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:26,840 REPORTER: 'In the last image of his life, 295 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:28,800 '13-year-old Olly Stephens 296 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,840 'strolls to a park in Reading to meet a girl on a Sunday afternoon. 297 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,880 'strolls to a park in Reading to meet a girl on a Sunday afternoon. 298 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:33,200 'strolls to a park in Reading to meet a girl on a Sunday afternoon. 299 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,240 'Thirteen minutes later, he'd be dead.' 300 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:36,240 'Thirteen minutes later, he'd be dead.' 301 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,480 All Olly had done is, somebody he knew of had been patterned. 302 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,520 All Olly had done is, somebody he knew of had been patterned. 303 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:44,800 All Olly had done is, somebody he knew of had been patterned. 304 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,120 So, what they do is abuse you, video it, humiliate you 305 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,160 So, what they do is abuse you, video it, humiliate you 306 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:06,480 So, what they do is abuse you, video it, humiliate you 307 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,520 and then threaten to post it unless you do as they tell you. 308 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:09,840 and then threaten to post it unless you do as they tell you. 309 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,520 And that's known as patterning. 310 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:20,320 So, Olly told the older brother of the boy, 311 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:21,840 So, Olly told the older brother of the boy, 312 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,880 the younger boy that was patterned, that this was going on. 313 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:24,840 the younger boy that was patterned, that this was going on. 314 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,880 And the two boys then felt aggrieved that he'd snitched on them. 315 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,920 And the two boys then felt aggrieved that he'd snitched on them. 316 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,240 And the two boys then felt aggrieved that he'd snitched on them. 317 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,240 He was just looking out for somebody else. 318 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:35,520 He was just looking out for somebody else. 319 00:11:35,560 --> 00:11:37,560 He'd done nothing majorly wrong. 320 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:38,360 He'd done nothing majorly wrong. 321 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,400 He just passed a video on that was out there already. 322 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:41,560 He just passed a video on that was out there already. 323 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,600 But they saw that as a slight, and then they decided to punish him. 324 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:45,200 But they saw that as a slight, and then they decided to punish him. 325 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,080 And that's when the conversations with the girl kicked off, 326 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,120 And that's when the conversations with the girl kicked off, 327 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:08,600 And that's when the conversations with the girl kicked off, 328 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:10,640 cos she wanted her revenge on him as well for... 329 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:12,680 All he'd done, he said, "Oh, I don't wanna see you any more." 330 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:13,080 All he'd done, he said, "Oh, I don't wanna see you any more." 331 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,640 So, between the three of them, this was a plot, definitely, 332 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:19,800 So, between the three of them, this was a plot, definitely, 333 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:21,840 you could see it developing over the two weeks. 334 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:22,080 you could see it developing over the two weeks. 335 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,000 There were 11 platforms used on the plot against Olly. 336 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:27,400 There were 11 platforms used on the plot against Olly. 337 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,440 So, there was a lot of escalation within those conversations. 338 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:32,600 So, there was a lot of escalation within those conversations. 339 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:35,640 They're just encouraging each other all the way. 340 00:12:35,680 --> 00:12:36,000 They're just encouraging each other all the way. 341 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,040 So, they're goading each other to go further and further and further. 342 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:39,720 So, they're goading each other to go further and further and further. 343 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,200 And it's horrendous. 344 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,640 'You got poison in your heart, fam. 345 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:48,120 'You got poison in your heart, fam. 346 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,160 'Olly, you're gonna die tomorrow.' 347 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:50,480 'Olly, you're gonna die tomorrow.' 348 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,640 You know, there are audio clips out there of what she did 349 00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:54,280 You know, there are audio clips out there of what she did 350 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,320 to make that meeting happen and who she contacted, 351 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:57,600 to make that meeting happen and who she contacted, 352 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,640 and one of them had told the other to carry the knife. 353 00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:01,000 and one of them had told the other to carry the knife. 354 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,040 GIRL:'So, he's gonna go bang him and pattern him and shit. 355 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,080 GIRL:'So, he's gonna go bang him and pattern him and shit. 356 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:05,960 GIRL:'So, he's gonna go bang him and pattern him and shit. 357 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,000 'I'm so excited, you don't understand.' 358 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:08,240 'I'm so excited, you don't understand.' 359 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,320 And then they lured him out to the field. 360 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,280 And then they lured him out to the field. 361 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:15,640 So, he'd been set up. 362 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,160 And what happened was that Olly got involved in a fight 363 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:22,200 And what happened was that Olly got involved in a fight 364 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:22,520 And what happened was that Olly got involved in a fight 365 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,560 with the older boy, and Olly was winning, 366 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:25,360 with the older boy, and Olly was winning, 367 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,400 so the other kid stabbed him in the back. 368 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:27,720 so the other kid stabbed him in the back. 369 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,760 Olly must have turned around in shock, and stabbed him in the chest. 370 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:30,320 Olly must have turned around in shock, and stabbed him in the chest. 371 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,600 They punctured both lungs, 372 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,640 so he had literally a minute, a minute and a half. 373 00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:38,920 so he had literally a minute, a minute and a half. 374 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,720 There was no way he was gonna survive that. 375 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,240 It beggars belief, what they did to him. 376 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:53,880 It beggars belief, what they did to him. 377 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:55,840 And it was just evil, pure evil. 378 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,440 They left him dying, ran off laughing. 379 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:00,360 They left him dying, ran off laughing. 380 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:04,840 They've just lost all perspective. There was no value of life there. 381 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,800 They've just lost all perspective. There was no value of life there. 382 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,520 They didn't care about Olly, 383 00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:10,560 didn't care about the consequences of what they'd done 384 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:11,040 didn't care about the consequences of what they'd done 385 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:12,680 and just about protecting themselves. 386 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:31,280 Obviously, we were working very closely with the police, 387 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:32,120 Obviously, we were working very closely with the police, 388 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,160 and they spent the first 24 hours hammering social media for evidence. 389 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:35,840 and they spent the first 24 hours hammering social media for evidence. 390 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,000 The amount of evidence they collected was unbelievable. 391 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:42,240 The amount of evidence they collected was unbelievable. 392 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:47,960 I mean, the police did an amazing job piecing that all together, 393 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:48,480 I mean, the police did an amazing job piecing that all together, 394 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,520 so what it enabled the police to do was make arrests very quickly. 395 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,560 so what it enabled the police to do was make arrests very quickly. 396 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:52,880 so what it enabled the police to do was make arrests very quickly. 397 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,720 By the Monday night, they were all arrested. 398 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,480 REPORTER: 'The trial provided a glimpse 399 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,520 'into the online world which occupied the lives of these boys, 400 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,560 'into the online world which occupied the lives of these boys, 401 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:09,880 'into the online world which occupied the lives of these boys, 402 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,920 'where posing with knives and talking about killing 403 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:12,760 'where posing with knives and talking about killing 404 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:14,760 'was considered everyday chat.' 405 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,840 'We were in court every day for six weeks. 406 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:20,080 'We were in court every day for six weeks. 407 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:22,640 'It's very difficult to sit in a court 408 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:24,680 'when the person that's killed your son is six feet away.' 409 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:25,560 'when the person that's killed your son is six feet away.' 410 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,000 You know, listening to the evidence was... hard. 411 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:30,640 You know, listening to the evidence was... hard. 412 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:32,280 The way they were portrayed in court was, 413 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:33,840 "Oh, we haven't done anything wrong." 414 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:35,640 And, "It was all an accident," sort of thing. 415 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,680 At one point, they tried to say that Olly had fallen on the knife. 416 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:38,120 At one point, they tried to say that Olly had fallen on the knife. 417 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,440 Their online presence was very violence-related. 418 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,480 Their online presence was very violence-related. 419 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:45,080 Their online presence was very violence-related. 420 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,120 You know, pictures of carrying knives, hooded up, 421 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:47,920 You know, pictures of carrying knives, hooded up, 422 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,960 balaclava-ed up, referring to knives as "cheffers". 423 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:50,800 balaclava-ed up, referring to knives as "cheffers". 424 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,400 There was a lot of hatred there, a lot of violence. 425 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:02,800 There was a lot of hatred there, a lot of violence. 426 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,840 You know, what makes a teenage boy go down that road? 427 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:06,160 You know, what makes a teenage boy go down that road? 428 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,200 Very early on in the girl's case, 429 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:10,480 Very early on in the girl's case, 430 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,520 the lawyers had pleaded guilty to manslaughter 431 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:13,840 the lawyers had pleaded guilty to manslaughter 432 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,880 because she didn't physically touch Olly. 433 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:16,960 because she didn't physically touch Olly. 434 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,000 Everything was done in the virtual world. 435 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:19,320 Everything was done in the virtual world. 436 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,360 So, because she hadn't physically touched Olly, 437 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:21,680 So, because she hadn't physically touched Olly, 438 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,720 she couldn't be accountable for his... for his death. 439 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,200 she couldn't be accountable for his... for his death. 440 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,960 Their families' lives are ruined, their lives are ruined, 441 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,680 Their families' lives are ruined, their lives are ruined, 442 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:42,960 all because of one stupid act. 443 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,080 And there's no satisfaction in it, there's no celebration in it. 444 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,120 And there's no satisfaction in it, there's no celebration in it. 445 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:49,520 And there's no satisfaction in it, there's no celebration in it. 446 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,560 Cos you understand, you know, if we feel like this... 447 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:52,120 Cos you understand, you know, if we feel like this... 448 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:54,720 ..how are their parents feeling? 449 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,760 But at the end of the day, they can still hug their children. 450 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:57,080 But at the end of the day, they can still hug their children. 451 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,120 You know, we can't. So that's kind of the difference. 452 00:16:59,160 --> 00:16:59,480 You know, we can't. So that's kind of the difference. 453 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:16,520 Sadly, this case is not the exception. 454 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,560 Social media is featuring far too frequently 455 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:18,880 Social media is featuring far too frequently 456 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,920 in incidents of murder and serious violence in this country. 457 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:21,400 in incidents of murder and serious violence in this country. 458 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,520 {\an8}But the sharing of violent and weapon-related content, 459 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:25,480 {\an8}But the sharing of violent and weapon-related content, 460 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:27,120 {\an8}particularly by children, 461 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,160 {\an8}also needs to be a priority for these companies. 462 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:29,400 {\an8}also needs to be a priority for these companies. 463 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,920 How social media, the role had played 464 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:34,360 How social media, the role had played 465 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,400 in orchestrating Olly's murder, is quite frightening. 466 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,960 in orchestrating Olly's murder, is quite frightening. 467 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,400 If you go and sit in the well of any court across this country, 468 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:43,440 If you go and sit in the well of any court across this country, 469 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:44,080 If you go and sit in the well of any court across this country, 470 00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:46,120 and a murder trial where a knife has been involved, 471 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:47,240 and a murder trial where a knife has been involved, 472 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,280 almost certainly, social media will have played some part in that. 473 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,320 almost certainly, social media will have played some part in that. 474 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:51,560 almost certainly, social media will have played some part in that. 475 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,800 There is a cancer in our children's lives. 476 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:57,120 There is a cancer in our children's lives. 477 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,160 It starts with the use of a mobile phone, 478 00:17:59,200 --> 00:17:59,480 It starts with the use of a mobile phone, 479 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,520 with apps that are provided to entertain... 480 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:01,800 with apps that are provided to entertain... 481 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,080 ..yet are misused to spread slander, hatred, misinformation and bile, 482 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,120 ..yet are misused to spread slander, hatred, misinformation and bile, 483 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:07,880 ..yet are misused to spread slander, hatred, misinformation and bile, 484 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:09,920 and ends in the cold, cruel-blooded murder. 485 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:10,960 and ends in the cold, cruel-blooded murder. 486 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,600 So, what we can't get our heads around is, you know, how... 487 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:30,240 So, what we can't get our heads around is, you know, how... 488 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,600 SIGHS 489 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:34,080 SIGHS 490 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:36,080 teenagers are that desensitised. 491 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,200 And that comes back to what they see on their phones. 492 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,960 And that comes back to what they see on their phones. 493 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,200 They're being shown knives and blades 494 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:47,040 They're being shown knives and blades 495 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,080 and, you know, gang violence and all that kind of stuff, 496 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:50,320 and, you know, gang violence and all that kind of stuff, 497 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:52,360 and, erm, as a parent, you don't see it, you have no idea. 498 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,240 and, erm, as a parent, you don't see it, you have no idea. 499 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,040 Obviously children, especially young boys, 500 00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:58,360 Obviously children, especially young boys, 501 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,400 fighting is not a new phenomenon, 502 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,440 but what does feel new to me is the contribution from social media. 503 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,480 but what does feel new to me is the contribution from social media. 504 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:05,520 but what does feel new to me is the contribution from social media. 505 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,560 So, it feels like these young individuals feel provoked 506 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:08,880 So, it feels like these young individuals feel provoked 507 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:10,920 and they have to respond in some way to keep up that level of bravado. 508 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:12,280 and they have to respond in some way to keep up that level of bravado. 509 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:13,440 {\an8}They can have arguments 510 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:15,480 {\an8}which can escalate quite quickly into actual murder. 511 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:16,080 {\an8}which can escalate quite quickly into actual murder. 512 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:56,840 Fred is my friend, my best, best friend, and my son. 513 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,880 Fred is my friend, my best, best friend, and my son. 514 00:19:58,920 --> 00:19:59,120 Fred is my friend, my best, best friend, and my son. 515 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,160 I tried to make my son go on the right track. 516 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:04,400 I tried to make my son go on the right track. 517 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,480 Fred was gonna be a businessman. 518 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,560 So that's why he do well in school - he was gonna be a businessman. 519 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,600 So that's why he do well in school - he was gonna be a businessman. 520 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:13,840 So that's why he do well in school - he was gonna be a businessman. 521 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:20,200 I get a phone call say Fred get stabbed. 522 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:21,920 I get a phone call say Fred get stabbed. 523 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,960 And it was giving me a panic attack. I did panic. 524 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,000 And it was giving me a panic attack. I did panic. 525 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:26,960 And it was giving me a panic attack. I did panic. 526 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,000 WHIRRING 527 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:29,200 WHIRRING 528 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:34,680 So, I see the helicopter, and I was saying to God, I say, "God, please." 529 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,720 So, I see the helicopter, and I was saying to God, I say, "God, please." 530 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:36,960 So, I see the helicopter, and I was saying to God, I say, "God, please." 531 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,240 This serious for a helicopter to reach there at that time. 532 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:41,840 This serious for a helicopter to reach there at that time. 533 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:44,400 Then I get a phone call 534 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:46,440 when I was, like, going on my way that say he pass away. 535 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:47,760 when I was, like, going on my way that say he pass away. 536 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:48,800 He didn't make it. 537 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,280 I'd say it's pretty rare to get homicides in Northamptonshire. 538 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,040 I'd say it's pretty rare to get homicides in Northamptonshire. 539 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,440 So when I received a call that we'd had a murder in Northampton... 540 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,000 So when I received a call that we'd had a murder in Northampton... 541 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,160 ..and it was of a 16-year-old schoolboy, 542 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:15,760 I knew then that this was gonna have 543 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,680 a huge impact on the local community. 544 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,880 The first thing that I always want to do is go down to the scene 545 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:28,560 The first thing that I always want to do is go down to the scene 546 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,600 to get an understanding of what's happened, where it's happened. 547 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:31,280 to get an understanding of what's happened, where it's happened. 548 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,960 So, the murder itself took place at the junction 549 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:37,800 So, the murder itself took place at the junction 550 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:39,840 of the Cock Hotel in Kingsthorpe in Northampton. 551 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:40,160 of the Cock Hotel in Kingsthorpe in Northampton. 552 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,200 So, it's a busy junction with a lot of cars passing through it. 553 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,360 So, it's a busy junction with a lot of cars passing through it. 554 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,120 It was quite evident early on, 555 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,160 the complexities that we were gonna have around the scene. 556 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,040 the complexities that we were gonna have around the scene. 557 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:56,560 The first things we'll do is try to gather as much evidence as we can, 558 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,160 The first things we'll do is try to gather as much evidence as we can, 559 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,720 as quickly as we can. 560 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,760 So, CCTV, those initial witness statements are gonna be key. 561 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,200 So, CCTV, those initial witness statements are gonna be key. 562 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,440 We can see from the CCTV 563 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,480 where Fred is walking home with a couple of his friends 564 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:15,760 where Fred is walking home with a couple of his friends 565 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:17,800 before he sees on the opposite side of the road the offending parties. 566 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:19,840 before he sees on the opposite side of the road the offending parties. 567 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:20,080 before he sees on the opposite side of the road the offending parties. 568 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:24,600 It's at that point that he then crosses the road 569 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:24,960 It's at that point that he then crosses the road 570 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000 to confront those others involved. 571 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:27,200 to confront those others involved. 572 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,920 And I think Fred is expecting there to be a fight at that point. 573 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:32,360 And I think Fred is expecting there to be a fight at that point. 574 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:34,920 But obviously completely unaware 575 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,720 that the other boys are carrying knives. 576 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,960 So, after Fred was stabbed, 577 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:44,240 So, after Fred was stabbed, 578 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,280 a couple of members of the public passing in their vehicle 579 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:46,760 a couple of members of the public passing in their vehicle 580 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,440 had seen what had occurred. 581 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,000 Seeing that Fred's being tended to 582 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,760 by a lot of members of the public already, 583 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:53,800 they decide to follow the two offenders. 584 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:54,200 they decide to follow the two offenders. 585 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,680 And they followed them along a road, 586 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:58,000 And they followed them along a road, 587 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,040 up towards an alleyway, where they see them enter, 588 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:01,560 and they're on the phone to the police 589 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,600 the whole time this is taking place as well. 590 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:03,840 the whole time this is taking place as well. 591 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,280 And they were able to direct the police 592 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,320 into an address that the two boys then went into. 593 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:08,840 into an address that the two boys then went into. 594 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,880 POLICE OFFICER:You, both of you, show me your hands. 595 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:11,520 POLICE OFFICER:You, both of you, show me your hands. 596 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:12,600 You, show me your hands! 597 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,640 Down on the ground! Down on the ground! 598 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:14,920 Down on the ground! Down on the ground! 599 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,360 We know they're armed with knives, 600 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,280 we don't know what other weapons they've got, 601 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,320 we don't know who they are and how they're gonna behave. 602 00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:20,600 we don't know who they are and how they're gonna behave. 603 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:21,760 You! 604 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,800 Right, get him, get him, get him. 605 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,840 You! Down on the ground! Down on the ground! Do it now! 606 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:26,640 You! Down on the ground! Down on the ground! Do it now! 607 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:27,640 OFFICER SHOUTS 608 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:32,720 Stay there. What? 609 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:35,360 You what? 610 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,880 So, at that point, the officers have to make a decision 611 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:39,200 So, at that point, the officers have to make a decision 612 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,240 to enter the premises, not knowing what they're going to find. 613 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:41,720 to enter the premises, not knowing what they're going to find. 614 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:43,720 They don't know whether this is adults involved, 615 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:45,760 if these are violent, hardened criminals or what. 616 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:46,040 if these are violent, hardened criminals or what. 617 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,000 Right, you, onto your side. 618 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,480 Sit up. 619 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,520 So, they've gone into that address completely open-minded, 620 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:52,240 So, they've gone into that address completely open-minded, 621 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,280 but prepared for every eventuality. 622 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:54,520 but prepared for every eventuality. 623 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,680 They clear the property meticulously room by room, 624 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,000 They clear the property meticulously room by room, 625 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,040 at which point, they arrive at an upstairs attic 626 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:01,360 at which point, they arrive at an upstairs attic 627 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,400 that had been semi-converted into a bit of a sleep-in. 628 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:04,200 that had been semi-converted into a bit of a sleep-in. 629 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:08,840 You've just entered this property, 630 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:10,880 you know that a boy has been murdered out on the street, 631 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:11,560 you know that a boy has been murdered out on the street, 632 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,600 and then you find potential suspect hiding behind the chest of drawers. 633 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:15,640 and then you find potential suspect hiding behind the chest of drawers. 634 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:15,880 and then you find potential suspect hiding behind the chest of drawers. 635 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,640 Armed police! 636 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:21,240 Armed police! 637 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,280 Show me your hands now! Show me your BLEEPhands. 638 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:24,360 Show me your hands now! Show me your BLEEPhands. 639 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:25,880 Do not move! 640 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,920 And you see that it's this 14-year-old child. 641 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:28,360 And you see that it's this 14-year-old child. 642 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:29,800 Do not move! 643 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,840 On the floor now, on the floor now! Down on your front! 644 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:33,680 On the floor now, on the floor now! Down on your front! 645 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,720 OK, mate, you're under arrest on suspicion of murder. 646 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:36,000 OK, mate, you're under arrest on suspicion of murder. 647 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,280 You do not have to say anything, 648 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,240 but it may harm your defence if you do not mention 649 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,280 when questioned something which you later rely on in court. 650 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:41,600 when questioned something which you later rely on in court. 651 00:24:54,135 --> 00:24:56,135 Armed police! 652 00:24:56,175 --> 00:24:56,855 Armed police! 653 00:24:56,895 --> 00:24:58,295 Show me your hands now! 654 00:25:03,815 --> 00:25:05,815 WOMAN: Northamptonshire Police have launched a murder investigation 655 00:25:05,855 --> 00:25:07,415 WOMAN: Northamptonshire Police have launched a murder investigation 656 00:25:07,455 --> 00:25:09,455 after, yesterday, a 16-year-old boy was tragically stabbed. 657 00:25:09,495 --> 00:25:11,495 after, yesterday, a 16-year-old boy was tragically stabbed. 658 00:25:11,535 --> 00:25:12,175 after, yesterday, a 16-year-old boy was tragically stabbed. 659 00:25:16,975 --> 00:25:18,975 Sadly, despite the best efforts of members of the public, 660 00:25:19,015 --> 00:25:20,455 Sadly, despite the best efforts of members of the public, 661 00:25:20,495 --> 00:25:22,495 the police, police staff and paramedics, 662 00:25:22,535 --> 00:25:23,655 the police, police staff and paramedics, 663 00:25:23,695 --> 00:25:25,375 he died shortly afterwards. 664 00:25:30,535 --> 00:25:32,535 So, unlike a lot of homicide investigations... 665 00:25:32,575 --> 00:25:33,255 So, unlike a lot of homicide investigations... 666 00:25:34,895 --> 00:25:36,895 ..because we followed the offenders from the scene 667 00:25:36,935 --> 00:25:38,215 ..because we followed the offenders from the scene 668 00:25:38,255 --> 00:25:40,255 to the point of arrest in a very, very short amount of time... 669 00:25:40,295 --> 00:25:42,295 to the point of arrest in a very, very short amount of time... 670 00:25:42,335 --> 00:25:42,535 to the point of arrest in a very, very short amount of time... 671 00:25:43,855 --> 00:25:45,855 ..they've not had the opportunity to discard items. 672 00:25:45,895 --> 00:25:46,695 ..they've not had the opportunity to discard items. 673 00:25:49,295 --> 00:25:51,295 Also, being children, not that experienced in criminality, 674 00:25:51,335 --> 00:25:52,615 Also, being children, not that experienced in criminality, 675 00:25:52,655 --> 00:25:54,415 perhaps they hadn't thought this far ahead 676 00:25:54,455 --> 00:25:56,455 around what they'd do with their clothes and their weapons. 677 00:25:56,495 --> 00:25:56,895 around what they'd do with their clothes and their weapons. 678 00:25:56,935 --> 00:25:58,935 So, in the garden, once we've started to clear that out, 679 00:25:58,975 --> 00:26:00,255 So, in the garden, once we've started to clear that out, 680 00:26:00,295 --> 00:26:02,295 we've uncovered clothing, and we've uncovered knives as well. 681 00:26:02,335 --> 00:26:03,415 we've uncovered clothing, and we've uncovered knives as well. 682 00:26:07,495 --> 00:26:09,495 So, this weapon here was discarded into some bushes 683 00:26:09,535 --> 00:26:11,095 So, this weapon here was discarded into some bushes 684 00:26:11,135 --> 00:26:13,135 at the address where they were arrested from. 685 00:26:13,175 --> 00:26:13,375 at the address where they were arrested from. 686 00:26:15,095 --> 00:26:17,095 Very nasty, very lethal weapon that people can just go and buy online. 687 00:26:17,135 --> 00:26:19,135 Very nasty, very lethal weapon that people can just go and buy online. 688 00:26:19,175 --> 00:26:19,895 Very nasty, very lethal weapon that people can just go and buy online. 689 00:26:21,295 --> 00:26:22,335 It's a hunting knife, 690 00:26:22,375 --> 00:26:24,375 so it's got some tools on here for cutting line and stuff. 691 00:26:24,415 --> 00:26:25,055 so it's got some tools on here for cutting line and stuff. 692 00:26:25,095 --> 00:26:27,095 It's got a serrated edge, it's used for butchering meat. 693 00:26:27,135 --> 00:26:29,135 It's got a serrated edge, it's used for butchering meat. 694 00:26:29,175 --> 00:26:29,375 It's got a serrated edge, it's used for butchering meat. 695 00:26:30,775 --> 00:26:32,775 So, what we know is that two weapons were taken to the scene. 696 00:26:32,815 --> 00:26:33,975 So, what we know is that two weapons were taken to the scene. 697 00:26:34,015 --> 00:26:36,015 This one, that was held by the 16-year-old in his waistband, 698 00:26:36,055 --> 00:26:38,055 This one, that was held by the 16-year-old in his waistband, 699 00:26:38,095 --> 00:26:38,535 This one, that was held by the 16-year-old in his waistband, 700 00:26:38,575 --> 00:26:40,575 and then the other one that we've got here 701 00:26:40,615 --> 00:26:40,935 and then the other one that we've got here 702 00:26:40,975 --> 00:26:42,975 that a 14-year-old had, which was the fatal weapon. 703 00:26:43,015 --> 00:26:43,575 that a 14-year-old had, which was the fatal weapon. 704 00:26:45,215 --> 00:26:47,215 As you can see, it's a great big knife, absolutely massive. 705 00:26:47,255 --> 00:26:49,255 As you can see, it's a great big knife, absolutely massive. 706 00:26:49,295 --> 00:26:50,455 As you can see, it's a great big knife, absolutely massive. 707 00:26:50,495 --> 00:26:52,495 And you gotta think this was being carried by a 14-year-old. 708 00:26:52,535 --> 00:26:53,455 And you gotta think this was being carried by a 14-year-old. 709 00:26:56,935 --> 00:26:58,895 So, this knife has got a blade 710 00:26:58,935 --> 00:27:00,935 that's around 25 centimetres in length. 711 00:27:00,975 --> 00:27:01,455 that's around 25 centimetres in length. 712 00:27:01,495 --> 00:27:03,495 And we know from the pathology results 713 00:27:03,535 --> 00:27:03,895 And we know from the pathology results 714 00:27:03,935 --> 00:27:05,935 that it went into Fred's chest around 15, 16 centimetres 715 00:27:05,975 --> 00:27:07,975 that it went into Fred's chest around 15, 16 centimetres 716 00:27:08,015 --> 00:27:08,495 that it went into Fred's chest around 15, 16 centimetres 717 00:27:08,535 --> 00:27:10,535 before it literally cut his heart in two. 718 00:27:10,575 --> 00:27:11,255 before it literally cut his heart in two. 719 00:27:11,295 --> 00:27:12,855 So, it's extremely tragic. 720 00:27:18,295 --> 00:27:20,295 Until the investigation commenced, we were completely unaware 721 00:27:20,335 --> 00:27:21,375 Until the investigation commenced, we were completely unaware 722 00:27:21,415 --> 00:27:23,415 of what was going on in the background. 723 00:27:23,455 --> 00:27:24,175 of what was going on in the background. 724 00:27:25,535 --> 00:27:27,535 And it wasn't until we started digging into the mobile phones 725 00:27:27,575 --> 00:27:28,335 And it wasn't until we started digging into the mobile phones 726 00:27:28,375 --> 00:27:30,015 and all of the evidence and the messages 727 00:27:30,055 --> 00:27:31,535 that we understand the full picture 728 00:27:31,575 --> 00:27:33,575 of how this has escalated over a number of days. 729 00:27:33,615 --> 00:27:34,375 of how this has escalated over a number of days. 730 00:27:36,175 --> 00:27:38,175 These boys weren't really known to each other before. 731 00:27:38,215 --> 00:27:38,495 These boys weren't really known to each other before. 732 00:27:38,535 --> 00:27:40,495 They'd crossed paths once at a party, 733 00:27:40,535 --> 00:27:42,375 but they weren't friends or associates. 734 00:27:42,415 --> 00:27:44,415 It was only because of those messages 735 00:27:44,455 --> 00:27:44,735 It was only because of those messages 736 00:27:44,775 --> 00:27:46,775 that involved their wider circle of friends 737 00:27:46,815 --> 00:27:47,095 that involved their wider circle of friends 738 00:27:47,135 --> 00:27:49,135 that it's just escalated so senselessly, 739 00:27:49,175 --> 00:27:49,775 that it's just escalated so senselessly, 740 00:27:49,815 --> 00:27:51,815 so needlessly, resulting in Fred's death. 741 00:27:51,855 --> 00:27:52,735 so needlessly, resulting in Fred's death. 742 00:27:54,095 --> 00:27:56,095 So, this has all occurred after a bit of a dispute over a girl... 743 00:27:56,135 --> 00:27:57,615 So, this has all occurred after a bit of a dispute over a girl... 744 00:27:59,055 --> 00:28:00,975 ..and losing face, we would say. 745 00:28:01,015 --> 00:28:03,015 The 14-year-old boy has lost face over what's happened. 746 00:28:03,055 --> 00:28:03,975 The 14-year-old boy has lost face over what's happened. 747 00:28:04,015 --> 00:28:06,015 That's then transpired into violence on the Monday 748 00:28:06,055 --> 00:28:07,455 That's then transpired into violence on the Monday 749 00:28:07,495 --> 00:28:09,495 against one of Fred's friends. 750 00:28:09,535 --> 00:28:09,775 against one of Fred's friends. 751 00:28:09,815 --> 00:28:11,815 Then on the Tuesday, Fred and another boy 752 00:28:11,855 --> 00:28:13,735 Then on the Tuesday, Fred and another boy 753 00:28:13,775 --> 00:28:15,775 sought to get some revenge for that earlier assault. 754 00:28:15,815 --> 00:28:16,095 sought to get some revenge for that earlier assault. 755 00:28:16,135 --> 00:28:17,655 It was a bit of a tit for tat. 756 00:28:19,455 --> 00:28:21,455 Again, there was another fight, pretty low level, 757 00:28:21,495 --> 00:28:22,255 Again, there was another fight, pretty low level, 758 00:28:22,295 --> 00:28:24,295 although the violence had escalated slightly when Fred used his belt. 759 00:28:24,335 --> 00:28:26,255 although the violence had escalated slightly when Fred used his belt. 760 00:28:27,335 --> 00:28:29,055 And that was a real catalyst, then, 761 00:28:29,095 --> 00:28:30,895 for what occurs then on the Wednesday. 762 00:28:34,935 --> 00:28:36,935 The 14-year-old and 16-year-old were in contact with each other... 763 00:28:36,975 --> 00:28:38,495 The 14-year-old and 16-year-old were in contact with each other... 764 00:28:40,055 --> 00:28:42,055 ..trying to get others involved, to then hunt down Fred. 765 00:28:42,095 --> 00:28:42,935 ..trying to get others involved, to then hunt down Fred. 766 00:28:44,015 --> 00:28:46,015 They're talking around bringing tools, coming "ballied up". 767 00:28:46,055 --> 00:28:46,975 They're talking around bringing tools, coming "ballied up". 768 00:29:00,575 --> 00:29:02,575 And there was a clear inference then to bring tools in the plural, 769 00:29:02,615 --> 00:29:04,535 And there was a clear inference then to bring tools in the plural, 770 00:29:04,575 --> 00:29:06,575 not just one, but tools for both of them, 771 00:29:06,615 --> 00:29:07,215 not just one, but tools for both of them, 772 00:29:07,255 --> 00:29:08,695 that they wanted to go armed, 773 00:29:08,735 --> 00:29:10,495 they wanted to have that show of force. 774 00:29:22,015 --> 00:29:24,015 We then see that plan start coming into play 775 00:29:24,055 --> 00:29:24,935 We then see that plan start coming into play 776 00:29:24,975 --> 00:29:26,975 with the picking up of a Voi scooter from Northampton town centre. 777 00:29:27,015 --> 00:29:28,735 with the picking up of a Voi scooter from Northampton town centre. 778 00:29:31,655 --> 00:29:32,935 We know that that's been hired 779 00:29:32,975 --> 00:29:34,975 by the 14-year-old in an account belonging to his mother. 780 00:29:35,015 --> 00:29:35,895 by the 14-year-old in an account belonging to his mother. 781 00:29:35,935 --> 00:29:37,935 So we see the journey that he takes from near to his home address 782 00:29:37,975 --> 00:29:39,935 So we see the journey that he takes from near to his home address 783 00:29:39,975 --> 00:29:41,975 into the town centre to then go and pick up the 16-year-old. 784 00:29:42,015 --> 00:29:43,815 into the town centre to then go and pick up the 16-year-old. 785 00:29:44,935 --> 00:29:46,935 The knives are brought out by the 14-year-old, 786 00:29:46,975 --> 00:29:47,775 The knives are brought out by the 14-year-old, 787 00:29:47,815 --> 00:29:49,815 one's handed to the 16-year-old, so they've got one each now. 788 00:29:49,855 --> 00:29:50,735 one's handed to the 16-year-old, so they've got one each now. 789 00:29:50,775 --> 00:29:52,775 From there, they then travel up towards Kingsthorpe College, 790 00:29:52,815 --> 00:29:53,655 From there, they then travel up towards Kingsthorpe College, 791 00:29:53,695 --> 00:29:54,775 looking for Fred. 792 00:29:57,335 --> 00:29:59,335 But they're late, Fred has already left school for the day. 793 00:29:59,375 --> 00:29:59,975 But they're late, Fred has already left school for the day. 794 00:30:00,015 --> 00:30:01,975 It's around quarter past, twenty past three. 795 00:30:02,015 --> 00:30:04,015 So, they then start to follow the route 796 00:30:04,055 --> 00:30:04,775 So, they then start to follow the route 797 00:30:04,815 --> 00:30:06,535 that Fred would've taken to walk home, 798 00:30:06,575 --> 00:30:08,575 at which point, we then pick them up on CCTV. 799 00:30:08,615 --> 00:30:09,335 at which point, we then pick them up on CCTV. 800 00:30:11,935 --> 00:30:13,935 As Fred is walking down towards the Cock Hotel junction, 801 00:30:13,975 --> 00:30:14,935 As Fred is walking down towards the Cock Hotel junction, 802 00:30:14,975 --> 00:30:16,975 we can see them travelling down on their scooter. 803 00:30:17,015 --> 00:30:17,535 we can see them travelling down on their scooter. 804 00:30:21,375 --> 00:30:23,375 So, Fred's with one of his other friends 805 00:30:23,415 --> 00:30:23,695 So, Fred's with one of his other friends 806 00:30:23,735 --> 00:30:25,735 who provided a key witness statement to the police around what happened. 807 00:30:25,775 --> 00:30:26,615 who provided a key witness statement to the police around what happened. 808 00:30:28,575 --> 00:30:30,575 After they crossed the road and approached the other boys, 809 00:30:30,615 --> 00:30:31,175 After they crossed the road and approached the other boys, 810 00:30:31,215 --> 00:30:33,215 there's a confrontation between Fred and the 16-year-old, 811 00:30:33,255 --> 00:30:34,775 there's a confrontation between Fred and the 16-year-old, 812 00:30:34,815 --> 00:30:36,015 one of the suspects. 813 00:30:36,055 --> 00:30:37,455 He goes to the ground 814 00:30:37,495 --> 00:30:39,495 and then the 14-year-old accomplice who's with him 815 00:30:39,535 --> 00:30:39,775 and then the 14-year-old accomplice who's with him 816 00:30:39,815 --> 00:30:41,615 steps over and approaches Fred. 817 00:30:44,535 --> 00:30:46,535 The 14-year-old pulls out his knife, and it's a really big knife, 818 00:30:46,575 --> 00:30:48,295 The 14-year-old pulls out his knife, and it's a really big knife, 819 00:30:48,335 --> 00:30:49,775 and starts approaching Fred. 820 00:30:52,415 --> 00:30:54,415 Fred's seen a knife, backs up, but he's walking backwards 821 00:30:54,455 --> 00:30:55,495 Fred's seen a knife, backs up, but he's walking backwards 822 00:30:55,535 --> 00:30:57,535 and he doesn't know there's a tree behind him 823 00:30:57,575 --> 00:30:58,295 and he doesn't know there's a tree behind him 824 00:30:58,335 --> 00:31:00,335 and unfortunately gets himself cornered against a tree. 825 00:31:00,375 --> 00:31:01,375 and unfortunately gets himself cornered against a tree. 826 00:31:04,135 --> 00:31:06,135 At which point, the 14-year-old then lunges 827 00:31:06,175 --> 00:31:06,855 At which point, the 14-year-old then lunges 828 00:31:06,895 --> 00:31:08,655 once to the side of his chest... 829 00:31:12,215 --> 00:31:13,975 ..going straight in through his heart. 830 00:31:19,055 --> 00:31:21,055 So it was only one stab wound, and that's all it takes. 831 00:31:21,095 --> 00:31:21,655 So it was only one stab wound, and that's all it takes. 832 00:31:21,695 --> 00:31:23,695 You know, this was a whopping great big knife, 833 00:31:23,735 --> 00:31:24,015 You know, this was a whopping great big knife, 834 00:31:24,055 --> 00:31:26,055 and unfortunately, it cost Fred his life. 835 00:31:26,095 --> 00:31:26,295 and unfortunately, it cost Fred his life. 836 00:31:29,215 --> 00:31:31,215 It was a catastrophic injury. 837 00:31:31,255 --> 00:31:31,575 It was a catastrophic injury. 838 00:31:31,615 --> 00:31:33,375 Fred suffered massive blood loss. 839 00:31:33,415 --> 00:31:35,415 Within a matter of seconds, he was unconscious and collapsed. 840 00:31:35,455 --> 00:31:36,375 Within a matter of seconds, he was unconscious and collapsed. 841 00:31:43,135 --> 00:31:45,135 The coroner said the knife touched his heart. 842 00:31:45,175 --> 00:31:45,415 The coroner said the knife touched his heart. 843 00:31:45,455 --> 00:31:47,055 That's why - punctured his heart. 844 00:31:49,815 --> 00:31:51,815 But this guy who killed my son doesn't even know my son. 845 00:31:51,855 --> 00:31:53,095 But this guy who killed my son doesn't even know my son. 846 00:31:53,135 --> 00:31:54,415 Doesn't know my son. 847 00:31:55,975 --> 00:31:57,975 He wanna be hard. Social media. 848 00:31:58,015 --> 00:31:58,535 He wanna be hard. Social media. 849 00:31:58,575 --> 00:32:00,575 I think they're pressuring the child to be what them is not. 850 00:32:00,615 --> 00:32:01,495 I think they're pressuring the child to be what them is not. 851 00:32:03,175 --> 00:32:05,175 He talk on the social media saying he gonna kill Fred. 852 00:32:05,215 --> 00:32:05,455 He talk on the social media saying he gonna kill Fred. 853 00:32:05,495 --> 00:32:07,415 And then they do it. 854 00:32:07,455 --> 00:32:09,455 And that dangerous weapon, he buy it online. 855 00:32:09,495 --> 00:32:11,415 And that dangerous weapon, he buy it online. 856 00:32:11,455 --> 00:32:13,455 He bought that knife online. 857 00:32:13,495 --> 00:32:13,695 He bought that knife online. 858 00:32:13,735 --> 00:32:15,735 He kill an innocent man. Stupid. 859 00:32:15,775 --> 00:32:16,455 He kill an innocent man. Stupid. 860 00:32:24,855 --> 00:32:26,615 I think times have really changed 861 00:32:26,655 --> 00:32:28,655 from perhaps when I used to be at school... 862 00:32:28,695 --> 00:32:28,895 from perhaps when I used to be at school... 863 00:32:30,135 --> 00:32:31,695 ..and there used to be disputes 864 00:32:31,735 --> 00:32:33,735 and boys would have a fight under the underpass after school, 865 00:32:33,775 --> 00:32:34,335 and boys would have a fight under the underpass after school, 866 00:32:34,375 --> 00:32:36,375 and you'd go your separate ways, and that'd be the end of it. 867 00:32:36,415 --> 00:32:37,015 and you'd go your separate ways, and that'd be the end of it. 868 00:32:37,055 --> 00:32:39,055 Nowadays, it seems to be so many young people are carrying knives, 869 00:32:39,095 --> 00:32:40,855 Nowadays, it seems to be so many young people are carrying knives, 870 00:32:40,895 --> 00:32:42,775 you just don't know what you are walking into 871 00:32:42,815 --> 00:32:44,095 when these fights occur. 872 00:32:52,775 --> 00:32:54,535 So, with the mobile phones that we recovered, 873 00:32:54,575 --> 00:32:56,575 we identified a number of images 874 00:32:56,615 --> 00:32:56,855 we identified a number of images 875 00:32:56,895 --> 00:32:58,895 that were of key importance later on in the trial. 876 00:32:58,935 --> 00:33:00,495 that were of key importance later on in the trial. 877 00:33:00,535 --> 00:33:02,535 And these showed that the 16-year-old 878 00:33:02,575 --> 00:33:03,095 And these showed that the 16-year-old 879 00:33:03,135 --> 00:33:05,135 is posing in his kitchen, holding a great big machete. 880 00:33:05,175 --> 00:33:06,015 is posing in his kitchen, holding a great big machete. 881 00:33:09,495 --> 00:33:11,495 He's got a face covering on, and he's brandishing this knife 882 00:33:11,535 --> 00:33:12,975 He's got a face covering on, and he's brandishing this knife 883 00:33:13,015 --> 00:33:15,015 clearly for social media and his sort of... his reputation. 884 00:33:15,055 --> 00:33:16,135 clearly for social media and his sort of... his reputation. 885 00:33:19,375 --> 00:33:21,375 We've got other images as well that show the boys together again, 886 00:33:21,415 --> 00:33:22,855 We've got other images as well that show the boys together again, 887 00:33:22,895 --> 00:33:24,895 holding other knives, different knives, 888 00:33:24,935 --> 00:33:25,175 holding other knives, different knives, 889 00:33:25,215 --> 00:33:26,975 out in the street as well, 890 00:33:27,015 --> 00:33:29,015 trying to look fierce and trying to look menacing. 891 00:33:29,055 --> 00:33:29,975 trying to look fierce and trying to look menacing. 892 00:33:30,015 --> 00:33:32,015 All part of that image and that reputation 893 00:33:32,055 --> 00:33:32,335 All part of that image and that reputation 894 00:33:32,375 --> 00:33:33,815 they're trying to build as, you know, 895 00:33:33,855 --> 00:33:35,855 people not to be messed with, people to be feared. 896 00:33:35,895 --> 00:33:37,135 people not to be messed with, people to be feared. 897 00:33:51,375 --> 00:33:52,855 Really mixed emotions. 898 00:33:52,895 --> 00:33:54,455 One, we're pleased, obviously, 899 00:33:54,495 --> 00:33:56,495 that the offender who stuck the knife into Fred 900 00:33:56,535 --> 00:33:57,255 that the offender who stuck the knife into Fred 901 00:33:57,295 --> 00:33:59,295 and ultimately took his life, he's been found guilty. 902 00:33:59,335 --> 00:33:59,855 and ultimately took his life, he's been found guilty. 903 00:33:59,895 --> 00:34:01,895 That was always the priority in this case. 904 00:34:01,935 --> 00:34:02,215 That was always the priority in this case. 905 00:34:02,255 --> 00:34:04,255 The conversation that I had with Fred's father, Rohan, 906 00:34:04,295 --> 00:34:04,895 The conversation that I had with Fred's father, Rohan, 907 00:34:04,935 --> 00:34:06,495 was around, you know, he's the one 908 00:34:06,535 --> 00:34:08,455 that we really need to get convicted of this. 909 00:34:08,495 --> 00:34:10,495 He's the one ultimately responsible. 910 00:34:10,535 --> 00:34:11,295 He's the one ultimately responsible. 911 00:34:11,335 --> 00:34:13,335 However, the 16-year-old, he played a significant role in this. 912 00:34:13,375 --> 00:34:15,095 However, the 16-year-old, he played a significant role in this. 913 00:34:15,135 --> 00:34:17,135 He's the one sending messages the night before, 914 00:34:17,175 --> 00:34:17,615 He's the one sending messages the night before, 915 00:34:17,655 --> 00:34:19,655 getting the 14-year-old to come, bring the tools, come ballied up. 916 00:34:19,695 --> 00:34:21,695 getting the 14-year-old to come, bring the tools, come ballied up. 917 00:34:21,735 --> 00:34:22,015 getting the 14-year-old to come, bring the tools, come ballied up. 918 00:34:22,055 --> 00:34:24,055 We see him on CCTV going with a flying kick 919 00:34:24,095 --> 00:34:24,615 We see him on CCTV going with a flying kick 920 00:34:24,655 --> 00:34:26,655 before the stabbing takes place as well. 921 00:34:26,695 --> 00:34:27,015 before the stabbing takes place as well. 922 00:34:27,055 --> 00:34:29,055 So he was heavily involved in it, but for whatever reason, 923 00:34:29,095 --> 00:34:29,935 So he was heavily involved in it, but for whatever reason, 924 00:34:29,975 --> 00:34:31,975 the jury returned their "not guilty" verdicts. 925 00:34:32,015 --> 00:34:32,215 the jury returned their "not guilty" verdicts. 926 00:34:47,655 --> 00:34:49,015 Very hurt... 927 00:34:50,255 --> 00:34:52,255 ..to know that my son life just... just taken away. 928 00:34:52,295 --> 00:34:54,295 ..to know that my son life just... just taken away. 929 00:34:54,335 --> 00:34:54,775 ..to know that my son life just... just taken away. 930 00:35:05,255 --> 00:35:07,255 Every day, I cry, cry, cry, cry, if I tell you the truth. 931 00:35:07,295 --> 00:35:08,175 Every day, I cry, cry, cry, cry, if I tell you the truth. 932 00:35:08,215 --> 00:35:10,215 I cry. I cry every day and night. 933 00:35:10,255 --> 00:35:12,255 I cry. I cry every day and night. 934 00:35:12,295 --> 00:35:12,455 I cry. I cry every day and night. 935 00:35:21,495 --> 00:35:23,215 SNIFFS 936 00:35:29,575 --> 00:35:31,215 I'm very hurt. 937 00:35:33,615 --> 00:35:35,455 Very, very hurt. 938 00:35:39,775 --> 00:35:41,775 Well, I just take one day at a time. 939 00:35:41,815 --> 00:35:42,135 Well, I just take one day at a time. 940 00:35:54,015 --> 00:35:55,695 I think, in a lot of ways... 941 00:35:57,655 --> 00:35:59,655 {\an8}..youth culture has been hijacked by this. 942 00:35:59,695 --> 00:35:59,975 {\an8}..youth culture has been hijacked by this. 943 00:36:00,015 --> 00:36:02,015 I'm not trying to stereotype, "All youth culture's the same," 944 00:36:02,055 --> 00:36:02,495 I'm not trying to stereotype, "All youth culture's the same," 945 00:36:02,535 --> 00:36:04,535 but there's certain norms and values that have been adopted, 946 00:36:04,575 --> 00:36:06,575 but there's certain norms and values that have been adopted, 947 00:36:06,615 --> 00:36:06,975 but there's certain norms and values that have been adopted, 948 00:36:07,015 --> 00:36:08,695 regardless of your background, 949 00:36:08,735 --> 00:36:10,735 because social media has been the accelerant. 950 00:36:10,775 --> 00:36:11,735 because social media has been the accelerant. 951 00:36:14,055 --> 00:36:16,055 What social media has done has created a style icon, 952 00:36:16,095 --> 00:36:18,095 What social media has done has created a style icon, 953 00:36:18,135 --> 00:36:18,415 What social media has done has created a style icon, 954 00:36:18,455 --> 00:36:20,455 a youth culture, almost, around knife carrying 955 00:36:20,495 --> 00:36:21,655 a youth culture, almost, around knife carrying 956 00:36:21,695 --> 00:36:23,695 {\an8}in that it glamorises it and normalises it. 957 00:36:23,735 --> 00:36:24,535 {\an8}in that it glamorises it and normalises it. 958 00:36:33,215 --> 00:36:34,615 SHOUTING 959 00:36:34,655 --> 00:36:36,655 {\an8}TEENAGER:Lacking. He's lacking. 960 00:36:36,695 --> 00:36:37,015 {\an8}TEENAGER:Lacking. He's lacking. 961 00:36:37,055 --> 00:36:39,055 {\an8}Lacking. He's lacking. Lacking. 962 00:36:39,095 --> 00:36:41,095 {\an8}Lacking. He's lacking. Lacking. 963 00:36:41,135 --> 00:36:41,375 {\an8}Lacking. He's lacking. Lacking. 964 00:36:41,415 --> 00:36:43,415 {\an8}So, bravado is part of it, but it's also the fear 965 00:36:43,455 --> 00:36:45,295 {\an8}So, bravado is part of it, but it's also the fear 966 00:36:45,335 --> 00:36:47,335 that you will need a knife at some point to protect yourself. 967 00:36:47,375 --> 00:36:49,375 that you will need a knife at some point to protect yourself. 968 00:36:49,415 --> 00:36:49,815 that you will need a knife at some point to protect yourself. 969 00:36:49,855 --> 00:36:51,855 And in actual fact, the bravado part of it, 970 00:36:51,895 --> 00:36:53,055 And in actual fact, the bravado part of it, 971 00:36:53,095 --> 00:36:55,095 sometimes, for some kids is actually saying, 972 00:36:55,135 --> 00:36:55,535 sometimes, for some kids is actually saying, 973 00:36:55,575 --> 00:36:57,575 "Look, I've got a knife, don't mess with me." 974 00:36:57,615 --> 00:36:58,615 "Look, I've got a knife, don't mess with me." 975 00:37:12,735 --> 00:37:14,735 If you've got somebody that's carrying a knife cos they're scared, 976 00:37:14,775 --> 00:37:15,415 If you've got somebody that's carrying a knife cos they're scared, 977 00:37:15,455 --> 00:37:17,455 with a minor confrontation, 978 00:37:17,495 --> 00:37:18,135 with a minor confrontation, 979 00:37:18,175 --> 00:37:20,175 being fuelled by filming, bravado, young people, 980 00:37:20,215 --> 00:37:22,215 being fuelled by filming, bravado, young people, 981 00:37:22,255 --> 00:37:22,535 being fuelled by filming, bravado, young people, 982 00:37:22,575 --> 00:37:24,575 that's when we're seeing knives being pulled out. 983 00:37:24,615 --> 00:37:25,415 that's when we're seeing knives being pulled out. 984 00:37:25,455 --> 00:37:27,455 And the most horrendous situations are coming 985 00:37:27,495 --> 00:37:27,935 And the most horrendous situations are coming 986 00:37:27,975 --> 00:37:29,975 from such a small altercation. 987 00:37:30,015 --> 00:37:30,695 from such a small altercation. 988 01:15:31,650 --> 01:15:33,650 So, I suppose an age-old question is 989 01:15:33,690 --> 01:15:35,170 So, I suppose an age-old question is 990 01:15:35,210 --> 01:15:37,210 whether it's always possible to find an explanation 991 01:15:37,250 --> 01:15:37,890 whether it's always possible to find an explanation 992 01:15:37,930 --> 01:15:39,930 of why a child might carry out a heinous act like murder. 993 01:15:39,970 --> 01:15:41,610 of why a child might carry out a heinous act like murder. 994 01:15:45,970 --> 01:15:47,970 So is it because they've been exposed to violence 995 01:15:48,010 --> 01:15:49,010 So is it because they've been exposed to violence 996 01:15:49,050 --> 01:15:51,050 or they have parents or caregivers that don't instil a moral compass? 997 01:15:51,090 --> 01:15:53,090 or they have parents or caregivers that don't instil a moral compass? 998 01:15:53,130 --> 01:15:54,130 or they have parents or caregivers that don't instil a moral compass? 999 01:15:56,890 --> 01:15:58,410 And then another factor is that 1000 01:15:58,450 --> 01:16:00,450 I think it's very possible for child perpetrators, 1001 01:16:00,490 --> 01:16:01,170 I think it's very possible for child perpetrators, 1002 01:16:01,210 --> 01:16:03,210 for child killers, to actually enjoy 1003 01:16:03,250 --> 01:16:04,530 for child killers, to actually enjoy 1004 01:16:04,570 --> 01:16:06,570 the process of hurting somebody and taking somebody's life. 1005 01:16:06,610 --> 01:16:07,250 the process of hurting somebody and taking somebody's life. 1006 01:16:11,610 --> 01:16:13,610 {\an8}A case that really stands out to me is the murder of Brianna Ghey, 1007 01:16:13,650 --> 01:16:15,650 {\an8}A case that really stands out to me is the murder of Brianna Ghey, 1008 01:16:15,690 --> 01:16:16,130 {\an8}A case that really stands out to me is the murder of Brianna Ghey, 1009 01:16:16,170 --> 01:16:18,170 {\an8}who was a 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl. 1010 01:16:18,210 --> 01:16:19,610 {\an8}who was a 16-year-old transgender schoolgirl. 1011 01:16:27,690 --> 01:16:29,690 And she was murdered by two individuals, 1012 01:16:29,730 --> 01:16:31,050 And she was murdered by two individuals, 1013 01:16:31,090 --> 01:16:33,090 Scarlett Jenkinson and Eddie Ratcliffe, 1014 01:16:33,130 --> 01:16:34,010 Scarlett Jenkinson and Eddie Ratcliffe, 1015 01:16:34,050 --> 01:16:35,890 who were both 15 years old. 1016 01:16:37,210 --> 01:16:39,210 REPORTER:It's the moment Brianna Ghey met her killers. 1017 01:16:39,250 --> 01:16:40,890 REPORTER:It's the moment Brianna Ghey met her killers. 1018 01:16:40,930 --> 01:16:42,930 CCTV shows Scarlett Jenkinson, labelled X here, 1019 01:16:42,970 --> 01:16:44,810 CCTV shows Scarlett Jenkinson, labelled X here, 1020 01:16:44,850 --> 01:16:46,850 chatting to Eddie Ratcliffe, labelled Y. 1021 01:16:46,890 --> 01:16:48,170 chatting to Eddie Ratcliffe, labelled Y. 1022 01:16:48,210 --> 01:16:50,210 Brianna has just got off a bus and would be murdered not long after. 1023 01:16:50,250 --> 01:16:52,250 Brianna has just got off a bus and would be murdered not long after. 1024 01:16:52,290 --> 01:16:52,970 Brianna has just got off a bus and would be murdered not long after. 1025 01:16:56,170 --> 01:16:58,170 One thing that really stands out to me about the Brianna Ghey case 1026 01:16:58,210 --> 01:16:59,930 One thing that really stands out to me about the Brianna Ghey case 1027 01:16:59,970 --> 01:17:01,970 is the fact that it appears to be very pre-planned. 1028 01:17:02,010 --> 01:17:03,650 is the fact that it appears to be very pre-planned. 1029 01:17:03,690 --> 01:17:05,690 So it was Scarlett's plan in the beginning, 1030 01:17:05,730 --> 01:17:06,370 So it was Scarlett's plan in the beginning, 1031 01:17:06,410 --> 01:17:08,410 but she encouraged Eddie to join in with her, 1032 01:17:08,450 --> 01:17:09,730 but she encouraged Eddie to join in with her, 1033 01:17:09,770 --> 01:17:11,690 and they exchanged thousands of messages. 1034 01:17:12,970 --> 01:17:14,970 {\an8}She befriended Brianna in advance and invited her out to the park. 1035 01:17:15,010 --> 01:17:17,010 {\an8}She befriended Brianna in advance and invited her out to the park. 1036 01:17:17,050 --> 01:17:17,330 {\an8}She befriended Brianna in advance and invited her out to the park. 1037 01:17:17,370 --> 01:17:19,370 And it felt like they took a delight in the planning. 1038 01:17:19,410 --> 01:17:19,970 And it felt like they took a delight in the planning. 1039 01:17:20,010 --> 01:17:22,010 REPORTER: Jurors at their trial late last year 1040 01:17:22,050 --> 01:17:22,330 REPORTER: Jurors at their trial late last year 1041 01:17:22,370 --> 01:17:24,370 were shown this handwritten so-called murder plan, 1042 01:17:24,410 --> 01:17:25,730 were shown this handwritten so-called murder plan, 1043 01:17:25,770 --> 01:17:27,770 on which Scarlett Jenkinson mapped out the barbarism they would commit. 1044 01:17:27,810 --> 01:17:29,810 on which Scarlett Jenkinson mapped out the barbarism they would commit. 1045 01:17:29,850 --> 01:17:30,690 on which Scarlett Jenkinson mapped out the barbarism they would commit. 1046 01:17:30,730 --> 01:17:32,730 OFFICER:Scarlett, you are under arrest on suspicion of murder. 1047 01:17:32,770 --> 01:17:34,770 OFFICER:Scarlett, you are under arrest on suspicion of murder. 1048 01:17:34,810 --> 01:17:35,330 OFFICER:Scarlett, you are under arrest on suspicion of murder. 1049 01:17:35,370 --> 01:17:37,370 How come I'm a suspect? How come you're a suspect? 1050 01:17:37,410 --> 01:17:39,410 Is it cos I'm the last person that's seen her, or is it...? 1051 01:17:39,450 --> 01:17:39,690 Is it cos I'm the last person that's seen her, or is it...? 1052 01:17:39,730 --> 01:17:40,730 I don't know. 1053 01:17:40,770 --> 01:17:42,770 All the information I've received is you are a suspect, OK? 1054 01:17:42,810 --> 01:17:44,450 All the information I've received is you are a suspect, OK? 1055 01:17:46,770 --> 01:17:48,770 These are two kids who had a hit list 1056 01:17:48,810 --> 01:17:50,330 These are two kids who had a hit list 1057 01:17:50,370 --> 01:17:52,370 of kids that they could potentially kill. 1058 01:17:52,410 --> 01:17:54,410 of kids that they could potentially kill. 1059 01:17:54,450 --> 01:17:54,690 of kids that they could potentially kill. 1060 01:17:54,730 --> 01:17:56,730 And they were really immersed in 1061 01:17:56,770 --> 01:17:57,370 And they were really immersed in 1062 01:17:57,410 --> 01:17:59,410 how fantastic and exciting it would be 1063 01:17:59,450 --> 01:18:00,610 how fantastic and exciting it would be 1064 01:18:00,650 --> 01:18:02,650 to end the life of somebody. 1065 01:18:02,690 --> 01:18:03,850 to end the life of somebody. 1066 01:18:03,890 --> 01:18:05,890 So that is a shocking way of thinking. 1067 01:18:05,930 --> 01:18:06,170 So that is a shocking way of thinking. 1068 01:18:22,490 --> 01:18:24,250 So, when we look back in time, 1069 01:18:24,290 --> 01:18:26,290 children that go on to commit violence like murder 1070 01:18:26,330 --> 01:18:26,650 children that go on to commit violence like murder 1071 01:18:26,690 --> 01:18:28,690 is nothing new - that's been happening for decades. 1072 01:18:28,730 --> 01:18:29,450 is nothing new - that's been happening for decades. 1073 01:18:32,090 --> 01:18:34,090 I would say that in the vast majority of cases, 1074 01:18:34,130 --> 01:18:34,850 I would say that in the vast majority of cases, 1075 01:18:34,890 --> 01:18:36,890 there's usually something to do with their psychiatric make-up. 1076 01:18:36,930 --> 01:18:38,450 there's usually something to do with their psychiatric make-up. 1077 01:18:40,370 --> 01:18:42,370 {\an8}But I think it's also fair to say that there are exceptions. 1078 01:18:42,410 --> 01:18:43,050 {\an8}But I think it's also fair to say that there are exceptions. 1079 01:18:47,650 --> 01:18:49,650 REPORTER:Two 14-year-old boys lured a man to his death, 1080 01:18:49,690 --> 01:18:50,690 REPORTER:Two 14-year-old boys lured a man to his death, 1081 01:18:50,730 --> 01:18:52,370 killing him simply for fun. 1082 01:18:55,610 --> 01:18:57,610 The victim's family said the teenagers had been brutal. 1083 01:18:57,650 --> 01:18:58,490 The victim's family said the teenagers had been brutal. 1084 01:19:02,010 --> 01:19:04,010 He boasted about the killing to school friends. 1085 01:19:04,050 --> 01:19:04,650 He boasted about the killing to school friends. 1086 01:19:24,210 --> 01:19:26,210 Obviously, you don't go to work thinking, 1087 01:19:26,250 --> 01:19:26,530 Obviously, you don't go to work thinking, 1088 01:19:26,570 --> 01:19:28,010 "I wonder how many 14-year-old murderers 1089 01:19:28,050 --> 01:19:29,290 "I'm gonna deal with today." 1090 01:19:31,130 --> 01:19:33,130 And even now, here we are 25 years ago, 1091 01:19:33,170 --> 01:19:34,530 And even now, here we are 25 years ago, 1092 01:19:34,570 --> 01:19:36,570 and to talk about it, and it makes me think, 1093 01:19:36,610 --> 01:19:37,130 and to talk about it, and it makes me think, 1094 01:19:37,170 --> 01:19:39,170 "Well, why? Why on earth did this happen?" 1095 01:19:39,210 --> 01:19:40,970 "Well, why? Why on earth did this happen?" 1096 01:19:42,450 --> 01:19:44,450 REPORTER:In this park in Bedford, two 14-year-old boys 1097 01:19:44,490 --> 01:19:45,530 REPORTER:In this park in Bedford, two 14-year-old boys 1098 01:19:45,570 --> 01:19:47,570 lured a man to his death, killing him simply for fun. 1099 01:19:47,610 --> 01:19:48,170 lured a man to his death, killing him simply for fun. 1100 01:19:48,210 --> 01:19:50,210 Their victim was Mohammed Aslam, who had been sitting on a park bench. 1101 01:19:50,250 --> 01:19:52,250 Their victim was Mohammed Aslam, who had been sitting on a park bench. 1102 01:19:52,290 --> 01:19:52,810 Their victim was Mohammed Aslam, who had been sitting on a park bench. 1103 01:19:55,410 --> 01:19:56,850 April 1999. 1104 01:19:58,130 --> 01:20:00,130 It was close to his birthday, he'd been let down by his friends. 1105 01:20:00,170 --> 01:20:00,690 It was close to his birthday, he'd been let down by his friends. 1106 01:20:00,730 --> 01:20:02,730 He'd went out and got hopelessly drunk 1107 01:20:02,770 --> 01:20:03,330 He'd went out and got hopelessly drunk 1108 01:20:03,370 --> 01:20:05,370 and sat on a park bench down by The Slipe... 1109 01:20:05,410 --> 01:20:05,610 and sat on a park bench down by The Slipe... 1110 01:20:07,010 --> 01:20:09,010 ..and then his body was found. 1111 01:20:09,050 --> 01:20:09,210 ..and then his body was found. 1112 01:20:11,970 --> 01:20:13,970 It was evident immediately he'd been savagely beaten. 1113 01:20:14,010 --> 01:20:16,010 It was evident immediately he'd been savagely beaten. 1114 01:20:16,050 --> 01:20:16,370 It was evident immediately he'd been savagely beaten. 1115 01:20:16,410 --> 01:20:18,410 There was an imprint of this man's head in the ground, 1116 01:20:18,450 --> 01:20:19,330 There was an imprint of this man's head in the ground, 1117 01:20:19,370 --> 01:20:21,370 and that shows the level of ferocity that the offenders had used on him. 1118 01:20:21,410 --> 01:20:23,410 and that shows the level of ferocity that the offenders had used on him. 1119 01:20:23,450 --> 01:20:24,730 and that shows the level of ferocity that the offenders had used on him. 1120 01:20:28,610 --> 01:20:30,610 There was bits of wood around with blood 1121 01:20:30,650 --> 01:20:30,930 There was bits of wood around with blood 1122 01:20:30,970 --> 01:20:32,970 and pallets that would have been used in the attack, 1123 01:20:33,010 --> 01:20:34,090 and pallets that would have been used in the attack, 1124 01:20:34,130 --> 01:20:36,130 and it became clear after a couple of days 1125 01:20:36,170 --> 01:20:36,570 and it became clear after a couple of days 1126 01:20:36,610 --> 01:20:38,570 that one of the offenders 1127 01:20:38,610 --> 01:20:40,610 had began boasting that they had killed a man. 1128 01:20:40,650 --> 01:20:42,450 had began boasting that they had killed a man. 1129 01:20:42,490 --> 01:20:44,490 There were two people involved. Both were 14. 1130 01:20:44,530 --> 01:20:45,130 There were two people involved. Both were 14. 1131 01:20:47,050 --> 01:20:49,050 Terence Lambert and Sergio Pantano. 1132 01:20:49,090 --> 01:20:50,690 Terence Lambert and Sergio Pantano. 1133 01:20:54,010 --> 01:20:56,010 As the investigation unravels, 1134 01:20:56,050 --> 01:20:56,290 As the investigation unravels, 1135 01:20:56,330 --> 01:20:58,330 you begin to question, what's the motivation behind this? 1136 01:20:58,370 --> 01:21:00,170 you begin to question, what's the motivation behind this? 1137 01:21:05,290 --> 01:21:07,290 Both went to good schools, both came from good families. 1138 01:21:07,330 --> 01:21:09,010 Both went to good schools, both came from good families. 1139 01:21:10,490 --> 01:21:12,490 So there's nothing on the face of it in their background to indicate 1140 01:21:12,530 --> 01:21:14,370 So there's nothing on the face of it in their background to indicate 1141 01:21:14,410 --> 01:21:16,410 that they had a challenge around why they would want to do this. 1142 01:21:16,450 --> 01:21:18,170 that they had a challenge around why they would want to do this. 1143 01:21:19,530 --> 01:21:21,530 It's evident if you put a pallet on somebody, 1144 01:21:21,570 --> 01:21:21,810 It's evident if you put a pallet on somebody, 1145 01:21:21,850 --> 01:21:22,930 jump up and down on that, 1146 01:21:22,970 --> 01:21:24,970 you're gonna cause very, very serious harm to somebody, 1147 01:21:25,010 --> 01:21:25,730 you're gonna cause very, very serious harm to somebody, 1148 01:21:25,770 --> 01:21:27,770 but they found it quite amusing and ran away laughing so hard 1149 01:21:27,810 --> 01:21:29,770 but they found it quite amusing and ran away laughing so hard 1150 01:21:29,810 --> 01:21:31,810 that they could hardly run away from the scene, 1151 01:21:31,850 --> 01:21:32,290 that they could hardly run away from the scene, 1152 01:21:32,330 --> 01:21:34,330 which... is unbelievable. 1153 01:21:34,370 --> 01:21:35,810 which... is unbelievable. 1154 01:21:35,850 --> 01:21:37,730 Truly unbelievable. 1155 01:21:37,770 --> 01:21:39,770 REPORTER:Judge Daniel Rodwell described the evidence 1156 01:21:39,810 --> 01:21:40,810 REPORTER:Judge Daniel Rodwell described the evidence 1157 01:21:40,850 --> 01:21:42,850 as a "chilling catalogue of gratuitous violence 1158 01:21:42,890 --> 01:21:43,810 as a "chilling catalogue of gratuitous violence 1159 01:21:43,850 --> 01:21:45,170 "which gives every indication 1160 01:21:45,210 --> 01:21:47,210 "that it was carried out for the fun of it". 1161 01:21:47,250 --> 01:21:47,450 "that it was carried out for the fun of it". 1162 01:22:02,650 --> 01:22:04,650 I think trying to understand why these things happen is... 1163 01:22:04,690 --> 01:22:06,690 I think trying to understand why these things happen is... 1164 01:22:06,730 --> 01:22:08,730 I think trying to understand why these things happen is... 1165 01:22:08,770 --> 01:22:09,210 I think trying to understand why these things happen is... 1166 01:22:09,250 --> 01:22:11,250 Even now, I find it difficult to do, and I would challenge anybody 1167 01:22:11,290 --> 01:22:13,290 Even now, I find it difficult to do, and I would challenge anybody 1168 01:22:13,330 --> 01:22:13,610 Even now, I find it difficult to do, and I would challenge anybody 1169 01:22:13,650 --> 01:22:15,650 to come up with a rationale why that should be. 1170 01:22:15,690 --> 01:22:16,290 to come up with a rationale why that should be. 1171 01:22:18,810 --> 01:22:20,810 And I can't imagine what the motivation for that was 1172 01:22:20,850 --> 01:22:22,850 And I can't imagine what the motivation for that was 1173 01:22:22,890 --> 01:22:23,730 And I can't imagine what the motivation for that was 1174 01:22:23,770 --> 01:22:25,770 other than gratuitous violence, evil. 1175 01:22:25,810 --> 01:22:26,330 other than gratuitous violence, evil. 1176 01:22:32,770 --> 01:22:34,770 I've been asked about the term "evil". 1177 01:22:34,810 --> 01:22:35,050 I've been asked about the term "evil". 1178 01:22:35,090 --> 01:22:36,650 I can understand why people use it 1179 01:22:36,690 --> 01:22:38,690 when they're trying to convey across the hatred of a heinous act 1180 01:22:38,730 --> 01:22:40,170 when they're trying to convey across the hatred of a heinous act 1181 01:22:40,210 --> 01:22:42,210 by an individual in something like a news report. 1182 01:22:42,250 --> 01:22:42,530 by an individual in something like a news report. 1183 01:22:42,570 --> 01:22:44,570 So I understand it, but it's not part of my world. 1184 01:22:44,610 --> 01:22:45,290 So I understand it, but it's not part of my world. 1185 01:22:45,330 --> 01:22:47,330 {\an8}But I do have my equivalence within forensic psychiatry. 1186 01:22:47,370 --> 01:22:48,290 {\an8}But I do have my equivalence within forensic psychiatry. 1187 01:22:48,330 --> 01:22:50,330 {\an8}So my equivalent would be an individual 1188 01:22:50,370 --> 01:22:51,250 {\an8}So my equivalent would be an individual 1189 01:22:51,290 --> 01:22:53,290 {\an8}who's completely lacking in empathy and is completely callous 1190 01:22:53,330 --> 01:22:54,690 {\an8}who's completely lacking in empathy and is completely callous 1191 01:22:54,730 --> 01:22:56,730 {\an8}and they don't care about the rights or the wellbeing of others. 1192 01:22:56,770 --> 01:22:58,130 {\an8}and they don't care about the rights or the wellbeing of others. 1193 01:22:58,170 --> 01:23:00,170 {\an8}Plus, they don't have that moral barrier 1194 01:23:00,210 --> 01:23:01,290 {\an8}Plus, they don't have that moral barrier 1195 01:23:01,330 --> 01:23:03,330 {\an8}to stop them going out and committing violence. 1196 01:23:03,370 --> 01:23:03,690 {\an8}to stop them going out and committing violence. 1197 01:23:05,650 --> 01:23:07,650 When I hear of a child who has committed murder, 1198 01:23:07,690 --> 01:23:08,330 When I hear of a child who has committed murder, 1199 01:23:08,370 --> 01:23:10,370 it's more likely that they're gonna get involved 1200 01:23:10,410 --> 01:23:10,650 it's more likely that they're gonna get involved 1201 01:23:10,690 --> 01:23:12,690 in an altercation at a party 1202 01:23:12,730 --> 01:23:13,770 in an altercation at a party 1203 01:23:13,810 --> 01:23:15,810 or somewhere where kids congregate 1204 01:23:15,850 --> 01:23:17,130 or somewhere where kids congregate 1205 01:23:17,170 --> 01:23:19,170 and that somebody is going to have thought 1206 01:23:19,210 --> 01:23:19,770 and that somebody is going to have thought 1207 01:23:19,810 --> 01:23:21,810 {\an8}that it was a bright idea to take a knife out with them that day. 1208 01:23:21,850 --> 01:23:23,010 {\an8}that it was a bright idea to take a knife out with them that day. 1209 01:23:41,850 --> 01:23:43,370 RINGING TONE 1210 01:23:51,090 --> 01:23:53,050 {\an8}CALLER: 'Hello, erm... Address? 999.' 1211 01:23:53,090 --> 01:23:54,650 {\an8}SHOUTING 1212 01:23:54,690 --> 01:23:56,570 {\an8}CALL HANDLER: 'This is the ambulance service.' 1213 01:23:56,610 --> 01:23:58,610 {\an8}SHOUTING 1214 01:23:58,650 --> 01:23:59,810 {\an8}SHOUTING 1215 01:23:59,850 --> 01:24:01,850 'No, no, no, they're not breathing.' CALLER:'Please hurry up.' 1216 01:24:01,890 --> 01:24:02,690 'No, no, no, they're not breathing.' CALLER:'Please hurry up.' 1217 01:24:02,730 --> 01:24:04,730 'They've just been stabbed. It's a house party. Please.' 1218 01:24:04,770 --> 01:24:04,970 'They've just been stabbed. It's a house party. Please.' 1219 01:24:13,570 --> 01:24:15,090 I'd had loads of missed calls. 1220 01:24:15,130 --> 01:24:17,130 I think it was, like, 37 missed calls from Mikey... 1221 01:24:17,170 --> 01:24:19,090 I think it was, like, 37 missed calls from Mikey... 1222 01:24:20,250 --> 01:24:22,250 ..and other numbers that I didn't know. 1223 01:24:22,290 --> 01:24:23,290 ..and other numbers that I didn't know. 1224 01:24:23,330 --> 01:24:25,330 My heart was in my throat, 1225 01:24:25,370 --> 01:24:26,010 My heart was in my throat, 1226 01:24:26,050 --> 01:24:28,050 like, to have that many calls, what's happened? 1227 01:24:28,090 --> 01:24:29,290 like, to have that many calls, what's happened? 1228 01:24:32,290 --> 01:24:34,290 CALL HANDLER:'Listen to me. Listen to what I'm saying, OK? 1229 01:24:34,330 --> 01:24:35,250 CALL HANDLER:'Listen to me. Listen to what I'm saying, OK? 1230 01:24:35,290 --> 01:24:36,730 'Is the attacker still nearby?' 1231 01:24:36,770 --> 01:24:38,490 CALLER: 'I don't know. I don't know. 1232 01:24:38,530 --> 01:24:40,290 'I don't know. I don't know.' 'OK, darling. 1233 01:24:40,330 --> 01:24:42,330 'Is there any serious bleeding?' 'Yes. Very serious.' 1234 01:24:42,370 --> 01:24:43,810 'Is there any serious bleeding?' 'Yes. Very serious.' 1235 01:24:47,770 --> 01:24:49,770 Mikey's friend, he answered his phone. 1236 01:24:49,810 --> 01:24:50,010 Mikey's friend, he answered his phone. 1237 01:24:51,290 --> 01:24:53,210 And he said, "Mikey's been stabbed." 1238 01:24:55,530 --> 01:24:57,530 I-I didn't even know what to think. Like, I thought, "No, he hasn't." 1239 01:24:57,570 --> 01:24:59,570 I-I didn't even know what to think. Like, I thought, "No, he hasn't." 1240 01:24:59,610 --> 01:25:00,050 I-I didn't even know what to think. Like, I thought, "No, he hasn't." 1241 01:25:00,090 --> 01:25:02,090 I was saying, "No, he hasn't. No, he hasn't." 1242 01:25:02,130 --> 01:25:04,130 He was like, "Yeah, he has." And I said, "Is he all right? 1243 01:25:04,170 --> 01:25:04,530 He was like, "Yeah, he has." And I said, "Is he all right? 1244 01:25:04,570 --> 01:25:06,570 "Get an ambulance. Why are you ringing me? Get an ambulance." 1245 01:25:06,610 --> 01:25:07,010 "Get an ambulance. Why are you ringing me? Get an ambulance." 1246 01:25:13,930 --> 01:25:15,330 And then when we pulled up... 1247 01:25:16,690 --> 01:25:18,410 ..there was a white tent up. 1248 01:25:18,450 --> 01:25:19,850 VOICE BREAKING:So I knew. 1249 01:25:21,770 --> 01:25:23,770 They were in their forensic suits. 1250 01:25:23,810 --> 01:25:24,210 They were in their forensic suits. 1251 01:25:24,250 --> 01:25:26,250 The police just come over, the policeman, and he just said... 1252 01:25:26,290 --> 01:25:27,210 The police just come over, the policeman, and he just said... 1253 01:25:28,650 --> 01:25:30,650 Erm... 1254 01:25:30,690 --> 01:25:30,930 Erm... 1255 01:25:30,970 --> 01:25:32,970 "A young man's been stabbed here and killed tonight, 1256 01:25:33,010 --> 01:25:35,010 "A young man's been stabbed here and killed tonight, 1257 01:25:35,050 --> 01:25:35,450 "A young man's been stabbed here and killed tonight, 1258 01:25:35,490 --> 01:25:37,490 "and we believe it's your son, Mikey." 1259 01:25:37,530 --> 01:25:38,170 "and we believe it's your son, Mikey." 1260 01:25:50,170 --> 01:25:52,170 It does still get to you, even after a long time in the police. 1261 01:25:52,210 --> 01:25:53,210 It does still get to you, even after a long time in the police. 1262 01:25:55,530 --> 01:25:57,530 When you hear the details, the emotional accounts from witnesses, 1263 01:25:57,570 --> 01:25:58,570 When you hear the details, the emotional accounts from witnesses, 1264 01:25:58,610 --> 01:26:00,570 it does... it does get to you. 1265 01:26:02,130 --> 01:26:04,130 I went out to meet Hayley. And it is hard. 1266 01:26:04,170 --> 01:26:05,730 I went out to meet Hayley. And it is hard. 1267 01:26:05,770 --> 01:26:07,770 You walk into someone's home, erm, who've just lost a loved one... 1268 01:26:07,810 --> 01:26:09,810 You walk into someone's home, erm, who've just lost a loved one... 1269 01:26:09,850 --> 01:26:10,570 You walk into someone's home, erm, who've just lost a loved one... 1270 01:26:10,610 --> 01:26:12,610 All I can remember saying to Mark was, 1271 01:26:12,650 --> 01:26:14,530 All I can remember saying to Mark was, 1272 01:26:14,570 --> 01:26:16,570 "Please get them. Please go and get them." 1273 01:26:16,610 --> 01:26:17,610 "Please get them. Please go and get them." 1274 01:26:21,650 --> 01:26:23,650 It's horrific to think that people take knives to teenage parties. 1275 01:26:23,690 --> 01:26:25,690 It's horrific to think that people take knives to teenage parties. 1276 01:26:25,730 --> 01:26:26,010 It's horrific to think that people take knives to teenage parties. 1277 01:26:26,050 --> 01:26:28,050 But knives were drawn and then something happened. 1278 01:26:28,090 --> 01:26:28,330 But knives were drawn and then something happened. 1279 01:26:50,430 --> 01:26:52,430 {\an8}NEWSREADER:Mikey Roynon was fatally stabbed in the neck 1280 01:26:52,470 --> 01:26:52,950 {\an8}NEWSREADER:Mikey Roynon was fatally stabbed in the neck 1281 01:26:52,990 --> 01:26:54,990 {\an8}with a large zombie knife during a house party in Bath. 1282 01:26:55,030 --> 01:26:56,310 {\an8}with a large zombie knife during a house party in Bath. 1283 01:26:59,110 --> 01:27:01,110 I can't believe kids carry those around with them. 1284 01:27:01,150 --> 01:27:01,470 I can't believe kids carry those around with them. 1285 01:27:01,510 --> 01:27:03,510 Like, where do they get them from? It's shocking. 1286 01:27:03,550 --> 01:27:04,670 Like, where do they get them from? It's shocking. 1287 01:27:14,150 --> 01:27:16,150 He was my only son. Didn't need another one. 1288 01:27:16,190 --> 01:27:17,510 He was my only son. Didn't need another one. 1289 01:27:20,750 --> 01:27:22,750 I always say he was my friend, as well. 1290 01:27:22,790 --> 01:27:23,070 I always say he was my friend, as well. 1291 01:27:23,110 --> 01:27:25,070 I know he's my son, but he's my friend. 1292 01:27:25,110 --> 01:27:26,830 Like, we told each other everything. 1293 01:27:30,950 --> 01:27:32,830 Because it was a murder, 1294 01:27:32,870 --> 01:27:34,870 they can't release the body to the funeral directors for quite a while. 1295 01:27:34,910 --> 01:27:36,910 they can't release the body to the funeral directors for quite a while. 1296 01:27:36,950 --> 01:27:38,550 they can't release the body to the funeral directors for quite a while. 1297 01:27:38,590 --> 01:27:40,590 That broke my heart. Erm... 1298 01:27:40,630 --> 01:27:40,830 That broke my heart. Erm... 1299 01:27:40,870 --> 01:27:42,870 He obviously had to be identified. 1300 01:27:42,910 --> 01:27:43,150 He obviously had to be identified. 1301 01:27:43,190 --> 01:27:45,190 Erm, I couldn't do it. 1302 01:27:45,230 --> 01:27:45,470 Erm, I couldn't do it. 1303 01:27:45,510 --> 01:27:47,510 The last time I seen him, he walked out the door, 1304 01:27:47,550 --> 01:27:48,190 The last time I seen him, he walked out the door, 1305 01:27:48,230 --> 01:27:50,230 and I said to him, "Oh, you look handsome." 1306 01:27:50,270 --> 01:27:51,270 and I said to him, "Oh, you look handsome." 1307 01:27:51,310 --> 01:27:53,310 And he went, "All right, Mum, love you." 1308 01:27:53,350 --> 01:27:54,510 And he went, "All right, Mum, love you." 1309 01:27:54,550 --> 01:27:56,550 And, like, give me a cheeky grin. And I said, "Love you." 1310 01:27:56,590 --> 01:27:57,750 And, like, give me a cheeky grin. And I said, "Love you." 1311 01:27:57,790 --> 01:27:59,790 Erm, I don't... I don't wanna remember anything else. 1312 01:27:59,830 --> 01:28:01,270 Erm, I don't... I don't wanna remember anything else. 1313 01:28:07,110 --> 01:28:09,110 So, in the first few days of a murder inquiry, 1314 01:28:09,150 --> 01:28:10,230 So, in the first few days of a murder inquiry, 1315 01:28:10,270 --> 01:28:12,270 it's really important that you take time to evaluate 1316 01:28:12,310 --> 01:28:12,590 it's really important that you take time to evaluate 1317 01:28:12,630 --> 01:28:14,630 what you've got, to understand where you're heading. 1318 01:28:14,670 --> 01:28:14,870 what you've got, to understand where you're heading. 1319 01:28:17,670 --> 01:28:19,670 There were in excess of 70 teenagers there. 1320 01:28:19,710 --> 01:28:20,510 There were in excess of 70 teenagers there. 1321 01:28:20,550 --> 01:28:22,350 They witnessed probably 1322 01:28:22,390 --> 01:28:24,390 the most horrific thing they'll ever see in their lives. 1323 01:28:24,430 --> 01:28:24,710 the most horrific thing they'll ever see in their lives. 1324 01:28:24,750 --> 01:28:26,750 So we had a large number of teenagers 1325 01:28:26,790 --> 01:28:28,790 So we had a large number of teenagers 1326 01:28:28,830 --> 01:28:29,270 So we had a large number of teenagers 1327 01:28:29,310 --> 01:28:30,990 who were extremely traumatised. 1328 01:28:32,630 --> 01:28:34,630 The majority didn't see the actual incident, 1329 01:28:34,670 --> 01:28:35,710 The majority didn't see the actual incident, 1330 01:28:35,750 --> 01:28:37,750 but importantly, we had an eyewitness 1331 01:28:37,790 --> 01:28:39,150 but importantly, we had an eyewitness 1332 01:28:39,190 --> 01:28:41,190 who wasn't involved in the incident 1333 01:28:41,230 --> 01:28:41,470 who wasn't involved in the incident 1334 01:28:41,510 --> 01:28:43,510 but knew who had committed the murder. 1335 01:28:43,550 --> 01:28:43,830 but knew who had committed the murder. 1336 01:28:43,870 --> 01:28:45,870 And he did the right thing. He explained what had happened. 1337 01:28:45,910 --> 01:28:47,150 And he did the right thing. He explained what had happened. 1338 01:28:52,270 --> 01:28:54,270 So, it was a 16th birthday party 1339 01:28:54,310 --> 01:28:54,950 So, it was a 16th birthday party 1340 01:28:54,990 --> 01:28:56,990 arranged by a girl in an area of Bath, 1341 01:28:57,030 --> 01:28:58,830 arranged by a girl in an area of Bath, 1342 01:28:58,870 --> 01:29:00,870 and it was kind of an open invite to her friends and their friends. 1343 01:29:00,910 --> 01:29:02,750 and it was kind of an open invite to her friends and their friends. 1344 01:29:06,310 --> 01:29:08,310 Mikey, we think that he got a Snapchat 1345 01:29:08,350 --> 01:29:09,230 Mikey, we think that he got a Snapchat 1346 01:29:09,270 --> 01:29:11,270 inviting him to this party, 1347 01:29:11,310 --> 01:29:12,470 inviting him to this party, 1348 01:29:12,510 --> 01:29:14,510 and when I've spoken to his friends, they just said they were a bit like, 1349 01:29:14,550 --> 01:29:16,550 and when I've spoken to his friends, they just said they were a bit like, 1350 01:29:16,590 --> 01:29:16,870 and when I've spoken to his friends, they just said they were a bit like, 1351 01:29:16,910 --> 01:29:18,910 "Oh, why not? Let's go. It might be all right. 1352 01:29:18,950 --> 01:29:19,590 "Oh, why not? Let's go. It might be all right. 1353 01:29:19,630 --> 01:29:21,030 "It gives us something to do." 1354 01:29:21,070 --> 01:29:23,070 So they caught the bus to Bath and went to the party. 1355 01:29:23,110 --> 01:29:25,110 So they caught the bus to Bath and went to the party. 1356 01:29:25,150 --> 01:29:26,550 So they caught the bus to Bath and went to the party. 1357 01:29:29,190 --> 01:29:31,190 But also at the house were a group of teenagers 1358 01:29:31,230 --> 01:29:32,670 But also at the house were a group of teenagers 1359 01:29:32,710 --> 01:29:34,550 from the Wiltshire area. 1360 01:29:34,590 --> 01:29:36,590 They had been invited through a friend of a friend, 1361 01:29:36,630 --> 01:29:36,870 They had been invited through a friend of a friend, 1362 01:29:36,910 --> 01:29:38,910 and they'd come over on the bus. 1363 01:29:38,950 --> 01:29:39,190 and they'd come over on the bus. 1364 01:29:45,310 --> 01:29:47,310 And it was just a normal house party. 1365 01:29:47,350 --> 01:29:48,110 And it was just a normal house party. 1366 01:29:51,710 --> 01:29:53,710 From the party itself, we recovered a picture 1367 01:29:53,750 --> 01:29:54,830 From the party itself, we recovered a picture 1368 01:29:54,870 --> 01:29:56,710 from one of the Snapchat accounts. 1369 01:29:58,870 --> 01:30:00,870 It showed a group of youth, sat round on the decking 1370 01:30:00,910 --> 01:30:01,790 It showed a group of youth, sat round on the decking 1371 01:30:01,830 --> 01:30:03,830 at the back of the party where the murder was going to happen. 1372 01:30:03,870 --> 01:30:05,190 at the back of the party where the murder was going to happen. 1373 01:30:07,990 --> 01:30:09,990 And everyone seemed to be having a good time. 1374 01:30:10,030 --> 01:30:10,230 And everyone seemed to be having a good time. 1375 01:30:12,190 --> 01:30:13,470 And then something happened. 1376 01:30:13,510 --> 01:30:15,390 We still don't know what the trigger was. 1377 01:30:17,070 --> 01:30:19,070 Suddenly, there was a standoff between two groups. 1378 01:30:19,110 --> 01:30:20,870 Suddenly, there was a standoff between two groups. 1379 01:30:22,750 --> 01:30:24,750 We think it was a group of boys from Bristol 1380 01:30:24,790 --> 01:30:25,070 We think it was a group of boys from Bristol 1381 01:30:25,110 --> 01:30:27,110 and these boys from Wiltshire, and knives were drawn. 1382 01:30:27,150 --> 01:30:29,150 and these boys from Wiltshire, and knives were drawn. 1383 01:30:29,190 --> 01:30:29,390 and these boys from Wiltshire, and knives were drawn. 1384 01:30:30,470 --> 01:30:32,350 Mikey suffered one wound. 1385 01:30:32,390 --> 01:30:34,390 We believe he was attacked from behind, 1386 01:30:34,430 --> 01:30:35,110 We believe he was attacked from behind, 1387 01:30:35,150 --> 01:30:37,150 so he may not have seen the attacker. 1388 01:30:37,190 --> 01:30:37,430 so he may not have seen the attacker. 1389 01:30:37,470 --> 01:30:39,470 Shane Cunningham, he was 16. 1390 01:30:39,510 --> 01:30:41,510 Shane Cunningham, he was 16. 1391 01:30:41,550 --> 01:30:41,950 Shane Cunningham, he was 16. 1392 01:30:41,990 --> 01:30:43,990 And it was one very powerful blow into the back of his neck. 1393 01:30:44,030 --> 01:30:46,030 And it was one very powerful blow into the back of his neck. 1394 01:30:46,070 --> 01:30:46,270 And it was one very powerful blow into the back of his neck. 1395 01:30:47,350 --> 01:30:49,350 He was supported by Cartel Bushnell, who was 15. 1396 01:30:49,390 --> 01:30:51,390 He was supported by Cartel Bushnell, who was 15. 1397 01:30:51,430 --> 01:30:51,630 He was supported by Cartel Bushnell, who was 15. 1398 01:30:54,030 --> 01:30:56,030 People started to flee from the house, 1399 01:30:56,070 --> 01:30:56,350 People started to flee from the house, 1400 01:30:56,390 --> 01:30:58,390 and Mikey himself moved through the house, where he collapsed outside. 1401 01:30:58,430 --> 01:30:59,790 and Mikey himself moved through the house, where he collapsed outside. 1402 01:31:02,430 --> 01:31:04,430 You can imagine, you've got screaming teenagers down the phone. 1403 01:31:04,470 --> 01:31:06,350 You can imagine, you've got screaming teenagers down the phone. 1404 01:31:06,390 --> 01:31:08,390 CALLER: 'Hello, erm... Address? 999.' 1405 01:31:08,430 --> 01:31:08,670 CALLER: 'Hello, erm... Address? 999.' 1406 01:31:08,710 --> 01:31:09,910 SHOUTING 1407 01:31:09,950 --> 01:31:11,950 'There's a lot of people here. Please come, please come.' 1408 01:31:11,990 --> 01:31:13,350 'There's a lot of people here. Please come, please come.' 1409 01:31:13,390 --> 01:31:15,390 You've got very upset neighbours. 1410 01:31:15,430 --> 01:31:15,670 You've got very upset neighbours. 1411 01:31:15,710 --> 01:31:17,710 Some of the neighbours were administering first aid at the time. 1412 01:31:17,750 --> 01:31:18,070 Some of the neighbours were administering first aid at the time. 1413 01:31:18,110 --> 01:31:20,110 CALL HANDLER:'I'm going to tell you how to do chest compressions. 1414 01:31:20,150 --> 01:31:21,230 CALL HANDLER:'I'm going to tell you how to do chest compressions. 1415 01:31:21,270 --> 01:31:23,270 'I need you to pump the chest hard and fast at least twice per second.' 1416 01:31:23,310 --> 01:31:25,310 'I need you to pump the chest hard and fast at least twice per second.' 1417 01:31:25,350 --> 01:31:26,430 'I need you to pump the chest hard and fast at least twice per second.' 1418 01:31:26,470 --> 01:31:28,390 'We're doing chest compressions.' 1419 01:31:28,430 --> 01:31:30,430 The initial minutes are utter chaos. 1420 01:31:30,470 --> 01:31:30,710 The initial minutes are utter chaos. 1421 01:31:30,750 --> 01:31:32,750 'I'm gonna count with you, keep doing those compressions. 1422 01:31:32,790 --> 01:31:33,430 'I'm gonna count with you, keep doing those compressions. 1423 01:31:33,470 --> 01:31:35,470 'Can they hear me?' 'OK.' 1424 01:31:35,510 --> 01:31:35,750 'Can they hear me?' 'OK.' 1425 01:31:35,790 --> 01:31:37,790 'OK, one, two, three, four.' 1426 01:31:37,830 --> 01:31:37,990 'OK, one, two, three, four.' 1427 01:31:45,470 --> 01:31:47,470 So, the investigation, it was pointing towards 1428 01:31:47,510 --> 01:31:48,870 So, the investigation, it was pointing towards 1429 01:31:48,910 --> 01:31:50,910 these two individuals being involved in the murder. 1430 01:31:50,950 --> 01:31:51,870 these two individuals being involved in the murder. 1431 01:31:53,230 --> 01:31:55,230 And we then began to work on securing enough evidence. 1432 01:31:55,270 --> 01:31:56,910 And we then began to work on securing enough evidence. 1433 01:31:59,750 --> 01:32:01,750 So, when the actual incident had happened and they fled, 1434 01:32:01,790 --> 01:32:02,470 So, when the actual incident had happened and they fled, 1435 01:32:02,510 --> 01:32:04,510 we caught them on CCTV, 1436 01:32:04,550 --> 01:32:04,790 we caught them on CCTV, 1437 01:32:04,830 --> 01:32:06,830 very briefly, discussing the incident. 1438 01:32:06,870 --> 01:32:07,710 very briefly, discussing the incident. 1439 01:32:07,750 --> 01:32:09,750 Shane said to Cartel about the knife getting stuck in Mikey's neck. 1440 01:32:09,790 --> 01:32:11,790 Shane said to Cartel about the knife getting stuck in Mikey's neck. 1441 01:32:11,830 --> 01:32:12,030 Shane said to Cartel about the knife getting stuck in Mikey's neck. 1442 01:32:19,310 --> 01:32:21,310 And then we found a zombie knife forced down a drain, 1443 01:32:21,350 --> 01:32:22,630 And then we found a zombie knife forced down a drain, 1444 01:32:22,670 --> 01:32:24,310 and that was the murder weapon. 1445 01:32:29,190 --> 01:32:31,190 I would describe them as combat knives. 1446 01:32:31,230 --> 01:32:33,230 They're also described as zombie knives. 1447 01:32:33,270 --> 01:32:33,470 They're also described as zombie knives. 1448 01:32:46,430 --> 01:32:48,310 They're very long weapons. 1449 01:32:48,350 --> 01:32:50,350 They have a very long cutting edge, and then the back is very serrated. 1450 01:32:50,390 --> 01:32:52,110 They have a very long cutting edge, and then the back is very serrated. 1451 01:32:54,110 --> 01:32:56,110 My view - they're designed for one thing, 1452 01:32:56,150 --> 01:32:57,470 My view - they're designed for one thing, 1453 01:32:57,510 --> 01:32:58,830 and that's to kill. 1454 01:33:00,950 --> 01:33:02,950 We found Shane's DNA on the handle and Mikey's forensics on the blade. 1455 01:33:02,990 --> 01:33:04,990 We found Shane's DNA on the handle and Mikey's forensics on the blade. 1456 01:33:05,030 --> 01:33:07,030 We found Shane's DNA on the handle and Mikey's forensics on the blade. 1457 01:33:07,070 --> 01:33:07,310 We found Shane's DNA on the handle and Mikey's forensics on the blade. 1458 01:33:07,350 --> 01:33:08,550 It wasn't until a few months later 1459 01:33:08,590 --> 01:33:10,590 that we realised that, actually, we had another person. 1460 01:33:10,630 --> 01:33:11,190 that we realised that, actually, we had another person. 1461 01:33:13,310 --> 01:33:15,150 Leo Knight, who was also 15. 1462 01:33:18,350 --> 01:33:20,350 He'd given an account as a witness that just didn't add up. 1463 01:33:20,390 --> 01:33:21,190 He'd given an account as a witness that just didn't add up. 1464 01:33:21,230 --> 01:33:23,230 There were a few question marks around his clothing 1465 01:33:23,270 --> 01:33:24,710 There were a few question marks around his clothing 1466 01:33:24,750 --> 01:33:26,750 being disposed of at the scene. 1467 01:33:26,790 --> 01:33:26,990 being disposed of at the scene. 1468 01:33:28,390 --> 01:33:30,390 And then, as the investigation progressed, 1469 01:33:30,430 --> 01:33:31,470 And then, as the investigation progressed, 1470 01:33:31,510 --> 01:33:33,510 we had some forensics back about a knife that we then linked to him. 1471 01:33:33,550 --> 01:33:35,550 we had some forensics back about a knife that we then linked to him. 1472 01:33:35,590 --> 01:33:35,790 we had some forensics back about a knife that we then linked to him. 1473 01:33:37,710 --> 01:33:39,590 His DNA on the handle. 1474 01:33:39,630 --> 01:33:41,630 And then we found Mikey's blood on the blade, 1475 01:33:41,670 --> 01:33:42,590 And then we found Mikey's blood on the blade, 1476 01:33:42,630 --> 01:33:44,630 but importantly, that was airborne blood. 1477 01:33:44,670 --> 01:33:45,750 but importantly, that was airborne blood. 1478 01:33:45,790 --> 01:33:47,790 So that means that that knife was being held aloft 1479 01:33:47,830 --> 01:33:49,470 So that means that that knife was being held aloft 1480 01:33:49,510 --> 01:33:51,510 when Mikey's blood was airborne. 1481 01:33:51,550 --> 01:33:52,350 when Mikey's blood was airborne. 1482 01:33:53,790 --> 01:33:55,790 Our case was that, erm... 1483 01:33:55,830 --> 01:33:56,550 Our case was that, erm... 1484 01:33:56,590 --> 01:33:58,590 Leo had that knife out at the point that Mikey was murdered. 1485 01:33:58,630 --> 01:33:59,550 Leo had that knife out at the point that Mikey was murdered. 1486 01:33:59,590 --> 01:34:01,590 So they were the main key bits of forensic evidence. 1487 01:34:01,630 --> 01:34:02,950 So they were the main key bits of forensic evidence. 1488 01:34:06,110 --> 01:34:08,110 CCTV-wise, we had some good footage from the bus journey, 1489 01:34:08,150 --> 01:34:10,150 CCTV-wise, we had some good footage from the bus journey, 1490 01:34:10,190 --> 01:34:10,790 CCTV-wise, we had some good footage from the bus journey, 1491 01:34:10,830 --> 01:34:12,830 which we say showed Leo with a knife in his waistband, 1492 01:34:12,870 --> 01:34:13,710 which we say showed Leo with a knife in his waistband, 1493 01:34:13,750 --> 01:34:15,430 hidden under clothing. 1494 01:34:19,550 --> 01:34:21,550 We also recovered footage from McDonald's, 1495 01:34:21,590 --> 01:34:22,150 We also recovered footage from McDonald's, 1496 01:34:22,190 --> 01:34:24,190 where we say that Shane was fiddling with a knife 1497 01:34:24,230 --> 01:34:25,030 where we say that Shane was fiddling with a knife 1498 01:34:25,070 --> 01:34:26,670 in the waistband of his clothing. 1499 01:34:29,350 --> 01:34:31,350 Only Shane Cunningham had actually stabbed Mikey, 1500 01:34:31,390 --> 01:34:32,230 Only Shane Cunningham had actually stabbed Mikey, 1501 01:34:32,270 --> 01:34:34,270 but the other two were equally responsible 1502 01:34:34,310 --> 01:34:35,790 but the other two were equally responsible 1503 01:34:35,830 --> 01:34:37,830 because of their roles in producing knives 1504 01:34:37,870 --> 01:34:39,670 because of their roles in producing knives 1505 01:34:39,710 --> 01:34:41,710 and supporting the main defendant. 1506 01:34:41,750 --> 01:34:41,910 and supporting the main defendant. 1507 01:34:46,510 --> 01:34:48,430 OFFICER:Was it you that stabbed him in the neck? 1508 01:34:51,390 --> 01:34:53,390 Or was it somebody else that stabbed him in the neck? 1509 01:34:53,430 --> 01:34:53,630 Or was it somebody else that stabbed him in the neck? 1510 01:34:58,710 --> 01:35:00,710 They chose not to speak to us, which is their right. 1511 01:35:00,750 --> 01:35:01,230 They chose not to speak to us, which is their right. 1512 01:35:01,270 --> 01:35:03,270 OFFICER: Is there some reason why you felt 1513 01:35:03,310 --> 01:35:04,270 OFFICER: Is there some reason why you felt 1514 01:35:04,310 --> 01:35:06,310 that you had to have a knife with you that day? No comment. 1515 01:35:06,350 --> 01:35:06,990 that you had to have a knife with you that day? No comment. 1516 01:35:07,030 --> 01:35:09,030 Had anybody threatened you? No comment. 1517 01:35:09,070 --> 01:35:09,510 Had anybody threatened you? No comment. 1518 01:35:13,870 --> 01:35:15,870 So to this day, we still don't know exactly what their mindset was. 1519 01:35:15,910 --> 01:35:17,910 So to this day, we still don't know exactly what their mindset was. 1520 01:35:17,950 --> 01:35:18,990 So to this day, we still don't know exactly what their mindset was. 1521 01:35:19,030 --> 01:35:21,030 OFFICER: Tell me about knives at the party. 1522 01:35:21,070 --> 01:35:21,390 OFFICER: Tell me about knives at the party. 1523 01:35:26,670 --> 01:35:28,670 Did you see people with knives at the party? 1524 01:35:28,710 --> 01:35:28,950 Did you see people with knives at the party? 1525 01:35:33,710 --> 01:35:35,710 They were three teenagers, 15, 16 years old. 1526 01:35:35,750 --> 01:35:36,830 They were three teenagers, 15, 16 years old. 1527 01:35:38,350 --> 01:35:39,870 Nothing remarkable about them. 1528 01:35:41,110 --> 01:35:43,110 There are probably hundreds like them everywhere, 1529 01:35:43,150 --> 01:35:43,430 There are probably hundreds like them everywhere, 1530 01:35:43,470 --> 01:35:45,470 in every town and city across the country. 1531 01:35:45,510 --> 01:35:46,030 in every town and city across the country. 1532 01:35:48,030 --> 01:35:50,030 If you were to look back at someone's past and say, 1533 01:35:50,070 --> 01:35:50,710 If you were to look back at someone's past and say, 1534 01:35:50,750 --> 01:35:52,750 "Are they likely to go out and commit murder next week?" 1535 01:35:52,790 --> 01:35:54,430 "Are they likely to go out and commit murder next week?" 1536 01:35:54,470 --> 01:35:55,830 Definitely not with these boys. 1537 01:36:02,190 --> 01:36:04,190 'It's the most horrendous feeling, 1538 01:36:04,230 --> 01:36:05,110 'It's the most horrendous feeling, 1539 01:36:05,150 --> 01:36:06,950 'knowing that you have to go and face them, 1540 01:36:06,990 --> 01:36:08,990 'look them in the eye. 1541 01:36:09,030 --> 01:36:09,270 'look them in the eye. 1542 01:36:09,310 --> 01:36:11,310 'Like, they've taken your world, your life. 1543 01:36:11,350 --> 01:36:12,030 'Like, they've taken your world, your life. 1544 01:36:12,070 --> 01:36:13,950 'Mikey's life.' 1545 01:36:16,270 --> 01:36:18,270 There's no words to describe how it feels to sit there and think, 1546 01:36:18,310 --> 01:36:20,310 There's no words to describe how it feels to sit there and think, 1547 01:36:20,350 --> 01:36:20,990 There's no words to describe how it feels to sit there and think, 1548 01:36:21,030 --> 01:36:23,030 "You've taken my only child from me... 1549 01:36:23,070 --> 01:36:24,430 "You've taken my only child from me... 1550 01:36:26,110 --> 01:36:28,110 "..and you... you're just sat smiling, playing, looking." 1551 01:36:28,150 --> 01:36:30,150 "..and you... you're just sat smiling, playing, looking." 1552 01:36:30,190 --> 01:36:30,830 "..and you... you're just sat smiling, playing, looking." 1553 01:36:30,870 --> 01:36:32,870 You know... no words. 1554 01:36:32,910 --> 01:36:34,270 You know... no words. 1555 01:37:02,270 --> 01:37:04,030 To this day, we don't know why he was killed. 1556 01:37:05,670 --> 01:37:07,670 A minor flare-up at a party between kids. 1557 01:37:07,710 --> 01:37:07,910 A minor flare-up at a party between kids. 1558 01:37:09,510 --> 01:37:11,510 It should have been, at worst case, a punch or a big ruck 1559 01:37:11,550 --> 01:37:13,550 It should have been, at worst case, a punch or a big ruck 1560 01:37:13,590 --> 01:37:14,750 It should have been, at worst case, a punch or a big ruck 1561 01:37:14,790 --> 01:37:16,710 and ended up with a few bruises. 1562 01:37:18,310 --> 01:37:20,310 But because these defendants chose to take knives with them, 1563 01:37:20,350 --> 01:37:21,190 But because these defendants chose to take knives with them, 1564 01:37:21,230 --> 01:37:22,590 he lost his life. 1565 01:37:24,390 --> 01:37:26,390 It's like it's part of their wardrobe, as it were. 1566 01:37:26,430 --> 01:37:27,670 It's like it's part of their wardrobe, as it were. 1567 01:37:27,710 --> 01:37:29,710 Put your trainers on, put your tracksuit on 1568 01:37:29,750 --> 01:37:30,110 Put your trainers on, put your tracksuit on 1569 01:37:30,150 --> 01:37:32,150 and just pick up your zombie knife, just in case. 1570 01:37:32,190 --> 01:37:32,870 and just pick up your zombie knife, just in case. 1571 01:37:32,910 --> 01:37:34,910 It's a mindset that I can't understand. 1572 01:37:34,950 --> 01:37:35,470 It's a mindset that I can't understand. 1573 01:37:44,110 --> 01:37:46,110 Takes your breath away when you wake up and you think, 1574 01:37:46,150 --> 01:37:46,390 Takes your breath away when you wake up and you think, 1575 01:37:46,430 --> 01:37:48,230 "This has actually happened." 1576 01:37:48,270 --> 01:37:49,670 You think, "No, no, no." 1577 01:37:52,710 --> 01:37:54,710 I miss cooking for him. He loved his mum's cooking. 1578 01:37:54,750 --> 01:37:56,750 I miss cooking for him. He loved his mum's cooking. 1579 01:37:56,790 --> 01:37:56,990 I miss cooking for him. He loved his mum's cooking. 1580 01:37:58,110 --> 01:38:00,110 I miss doing his washing terribly. 1581 01:38:00,150 --> 01:38:00,750 I miss doing his washing terribly. 1582 01:38:02,430 --> 01:38:04,430 VOICE BREAKING: Hanging his clothes out on the line. 1583 01:38:04,470 --> 01:38:04,910 VOICE BREAKING: Hanging his clothes out on the line. 1584 01:38:04,950 --> 01:38:06,950 I miss changing his bed. 1585 01:38:06,990 --> 01:38:07,270 I miss changing his bed. 1586 01:38:08,550 --> 01:38:10,550 Just doing things that you do for your kids as a mum. 1587 01:38:10,590 --> 01:38:12,190 Just doing things that you do for your kids as a mum. 1588 01:38:15,590 --> 01:38:17,590 He has his own washing basket in his bedroom... 1589 01:38:17,630 --> 01:38:18,630 He has his own washing basket in his bedroom... 1590 01:38:18,670 --> 01:38:20,390 and his clothes are still in there. 1591 01:38:20,430 --> 01:38:22,430 Cos I can't wash it for the last time. 1592 01:38:22,470 --> 01:38:22,830 Cos I can't wash it for the last time. 1593 01:38:22,870 --> 01:38:24,870 I just can't do it, so... 1594 01:38:24,910 --> 01:38:25,870 I just can't do it, so... 1595 01:38:25,910 --> 01:38:27,910 they'll probably stay in there for the rest of my life 1596 01:38:27,950 --> 01:38:28,750 they'll probably stay in there for the rest of my life 1597 01:38:28,790 --> 01:38:29,990 because I can't. 1598 01:38:51,730 --> 01:38:53,290 Knives are getting bigger. 1599 01:38:56,250 --> 01:38:58,010 It's like an arm's war. 1600 01:39:00,610 --> 01:39:02,610 {\an8}A decade ago, I would've been talking to parents 1601 01:39:02,650 --> 01:39:04,650 {\an8}about checking the knife drawers and particularly the small knives 1602 01:39:04,690 --> 01:39:05,730 {\an8}about checking the knife drawers and particularly the small knives 1603 01:39:05,770 --> 01:39:07,090 {\an8}that could be hidden in your belt. 1604 01:39:09,570 --> 01:39:11,570 Now we're talking to parents about checking those deliveries 1605 01:39:11,610 --> 01:39:12,890 Now we're talking to parents about checking those deliveries 1606 01:39:12,930 --> 01:39:14,090 that arrive on your door. 1607 01:39:15,250 --> 01:39:17,250 {\an8}Because the knives that are being used are massive, 1608 01:39:17,290 --> 01:39:17,530 {\an8}Because the knives that are being used are massive, 1609 01:39:17,570 --> 01:39:18,970 {\an8}either zombie knives or machetes. 1610 01:39:22,210 --> 01:39:24,210 This all spirals in an arm's war. 1611 01:39:24,250 --> 01:39:24,970 This all spirals in an arm's war. 1612 01:39:25,010 --> 01:39:27,010 If I think you are carrying a knife and I need to protect myself, 1613 01:39:27,050 --> 01:39:28,250 If I think you are carrying a knife and I need to protect myself, 1614 01:39:28,290 --> 01:39:30,290 {\an8}I will carry a bigger knife because that will protect me against you. 1615 01:39:30,330 --> 01:39:32,210 {\an8}I will carry a bigger knife because that will protect me against you. 1616 01:39:32,250 --> 01:39:34,250 {\an8}And it goes on, and it goes on, and it goes on, and it goes on. 1617 01:39:34,290 --> 01:39:34,930 {\an8}And it goes on, and it goes on, and it goes on, and it goes on. 1618 01:40:00,570 --> 01:40:02,290 Knives, easily accesible, 1619 01:40:02,330 --> 01:40:04,330 cheaper options. Social media has been the accelerant. 1620 01:40:04,370 --> 01:40:06,050 cheaper options. Social media has been the accelerant. 1621 01:40:06,090 --> 01:40:08,090 You know, certain things.. that you use to believe. 1622 01:40:08,130 --> 01:40:09,170 You know, certain things.. that you use to believe. 1623 01:40:09,210 --> 01:40:11,210 “My child could never get involved in this” 1624 01:40:11,250 --> 01:40:12,450 “My child could never get involved in this” 1625 01:40:12,490 --> 01:40:14,490 Really?! Check what’s on their phone. 1626 01:40:14,530 --> 01:40:15,290 Really?! Check what’s on their phone. 1627 01:40:15,610 --> 01:40:17,610 Check what..who they’re associating with.. online. 1628 01:40:17,650 --> 01:40:18,610 Check what..who they’re associating with.. online. 1629 01:40:29,930 --> 01:40:31,930 Three years down the line, you don't ever forget that day. 1630 01:40:31,970 --> 01:40:33,970 Three years down the line, you don't ever forget that day. 1631 01:40:34,010 --> 01:40:34,570 Three years down the line, you don't ever forget that day. 1632 01:40:38,010 --> 01:40:40,010 This is the field where Olly was lured to... consequently murdered. 1633 01:40:40,050 --> 01:40:42,050 This is the field where Olly was lured to... consequently murdered. 1634 01:40:42,090 --> 01:40:43,050 This is the field where Olly was lured to... consequently murdered. 1635 01:40:45,410 --> 01:40:47,410 But we didn't want his friends 1636 01:40:47,450 --> 01:40:48,090 But we didn't want his friends 1637 01:40:48,130 --> 01:40:50,130 and people to remember this as a bad place. 1638 01:40:50,170 --> 01:40:51,290 and people to remember this as a bad place. 1639 01:40:56,010 --> 01:40:58,010 The thing is, that field was always the safe place for the kids. 1640 01:40:58,050 --> 01:41:00,050 The thing is, that field was always the safe place for the kids. 1641 01:41:00,090 --> 01:41:01,210 The thing is, that field was always the safe place for the kids. 1642 01:41:01,250 --> 01:41:02,890 And because of what happened to Olly, 1643 01:41:02,930 --> 01:41:04,410 they were staying away from it. 1644 01:41:04,450 --> 01:41:06,450 So Olly wouldn't want that, and we didn't want it. 1645 01:41:06,490 --> 01:41:07,010 So Olly wouldn't want that, and we didn't want it. 1646 01:41:07,050 --> 01:41:09,050 So... we came up with the idea of putting a bench there. 1647 01:41:09,090 --> 01:41:11,090 So... we came up with the idea of putting a bench there. 1648 01:41:11,130 --> 01:41:11,770 So... we came up with the idea of putting a bench there. 1649 01:41:24,250 --> 01:41:26,010 And then the tree came about 1650 01:41:26,050 --> 01:41:28,050 because we had an oak tree growing in the back garden 1651 01:41:28,090 --> 01:41:28,930 because we had an oak tree growing in the back garden 1652 01:41:28,970 --> 01:41:30,570 that had been there as long as Olly has. 1653 01:41:34,330 --> 01:41:36,330 So we planted that, and then the kids now decorate it at Christmas 1654 01:41:36,370 --> 01:41:38,370 So we planted that, and then the kids now decorate it at Christmas 1655 01:41:38,410 --> 01:41:38,770 So we planted that, and then the kids now decorate it at Christmas 1656 01:41:38,810 --> 01:41:40,810 and then they leave gifts and things and messages to Olly. 1657 01:41:40,850 --> 01:41:42,850 and then they leave gifts and things and messages to Olly. 1658 01:41:42,890 --> 01:41:44,250 and then they leave gifts and things and messages to Olly. 1659 01:41:50,650 --> 01:41:52,650 You know, we often just think, "Why us? Why Olly?" 1660 01:41:52,690 --> 01:41:53,570 You know, we often just think, "Why us? Why Olly?" 1661 01:41:53,610 --> 01:41:55,610 He was only 13 for about six weeks. 1662 01:41:55,650 --> 01:41:56,170 He was only 13 for about six weeks. 1663 01:41:56,210 --> 01:41:58,210 His birthday was the 1st of November 1664 01:41:58,250 --> 01:41:58,490 His birthday was the 1st of November 1665 01:41:58,530 --> 01:42:00,410 and he was taken on the 3rd of January, 1666 01:42:00,450 --> 01:42:02,450 so he didn't have... he didn't have very long as a teenager. 1667 01:42:02,490 --> 01:42:03,450 so he didn't have... he didn't have very long as a teenager. 1668 01:42:03,490 --> 01:42:05,490 But in his short period of time, he gave so much. 1669 01:42:05,530 --> 01:42:06,370 But in his short period of time, he gave so much. 1670 01:42:15,370 --> 01:42:17,370 I think the saddest thing about losing a child is 1671 01:42:17,410 --> 01:42:18,970 I think the saddest thing about losing a child is 1672 01:42:19,010 --> 01:42:21,010 the pain is never gonna go away... ever. 1673 01:42:21,050 --> 01:42:22,690 the pain is never gonna go away... ever. 1674 01:42:24,210 --> 01:42:26,130 You learn to live in pain. 1675 01:42:28,970 --> 01:42:30,970 I lost my only son, Joshua, to knife crime in 2013. 1676 01:42:31,010 --> 01:42:33,010 I lost my only son, Joshua, to knife crime in 2013. 1677 01:42:33,050 --> 01:42:34,050 I lost my only son, Joshua, to knife crime in 2013. 1678 01:42:34,090 --> 01:42:36,090 He was stabbed once in the heart. 1679 01:42:36,130 --> 01:42:36,370 He was stabbed once in the heart. 1680 01:42:36,410 --> 01:42:38,410 He wasn't a gang member, wasn't a drug dealer. 1681 01:42:38,450 --> 01:42:40,450 It was a minor altercation, and a young man carried a knife, 1682 01:42:40,490 --> 01:42:42,130 It was a minor altercation, and a young man carried a knife, 1683 01:42:42,170 --> 01:42:44,170 and the consequences were devastating 1684 01:42:44,210 --> 01:42:45,730 and the consequences were devastating 1685 01:42:45,770 --> 01:42:47,770 and are devastating almost 11 years later. 1686 01:42:47,810 --> 01:42:48,250 and are devastating almost 11 years later. 1687 01:42:53,490 --> 01:42:55,490 You know, every year, there's a birthday, an anniversary, 1688 01:42:55,530 --> 01:42:57,530 You know, every year, there's a birthday, an anniversary, 1689 01:42:57,570 --> 01:42:58,130 You know, every year, there's a birthday, an anniversary, 1690 01:42:58,170 --> 01:43:00,170 a Mother's Day, a Father's Day, a Christmas that come at you, 1691 01:43:00,210 --> 01:43:02,010 a Mother's Day, a Father's Day, a Christmas that come at you, 1692 01:43:02,050 --> 01:43:04,050 hit you like a speeding train. 1693 01:43:04,090 --> 01:43:05,210 hit you like a speeding train. 1694 01:43:07,970 --> 01:43:09,970 I just want other parents to be kind to themselves 1695 01:43:10,010 --> 01:43:11,570 I just want other parents to be kind to themselves 1696 01:43:11,610 --> 01:43:13,410 and realise that the pain they're in 1697 01:43:13,450 --> 01:43:15,450 and the difficulties they face are very, very normal. 1698 01:43:15,490 --> 01:43:16,090 and the difficulties they face are very, very normal. 1699 01:43:23,690 --> 01:43:25,690 Now I focus on, you know, how many young people 1700 01:43:25,730 --> 01:43:27,490 Now I focus on, you know, how many young people 1701 01:43:27,530 --> 01:43:29,530 can I get to see the reality of their choices before it's too late? 1702 01:43:29,570 --> 01:43:31,570 can I get to see the reality of their choices before it's too late? 1703 01:43:31,610 --> 01:43:32,130 can I get to see the reality of their choices before it's too late? 1704 01:43:34,090 --> 01:43:36,090 And so, it's... that fuels me to keep going. 1705 01:43:36,130 --> 01:43:37,170 And so, it's... that fuels me to keep going. 1706 01:43:44,290 --> 01:43:46,290 I think the main thing that I've seen over the last ten years 1707 01:43:46,330 --> 01:43:46,770 I think the main thing that I've seen over the last ten years 1708 01:43:46,810 --> 01:43:48,130 is the ages getting younger. 1709 01:43:49,610 --> 01:43:51,610 And the increase in murders over such trivial, trivial things - 1710 01:43:51,650 --> 01:43:53,650 And the increase in murders over such trivial, trivial things - 1711 01:43:53,690 --> 01:43:55,690 And the increase in murders over such trivial, trivial things - 1712 01:43:55,730 --> 01:43:55,970 And the increase in murders over such trivial, trivial things - 1713 01:43:56,010 --> 01:43:57,930 a look, a comment. 1714 01:43:57,970 --> 01:43:59,970 I think we've seen a huge increase 1715 01:44:00,010 --> 01:44:00,290 I think we've seen a huge increase 1716 01:44:00,330 --> 01:44:02,330 in crimes like that that are happening. 1717 01:44:02,370 --> 01:44:02,570 in crimes like that that are happening. 1718 01:44:04,410 --> 01:44:06,410 And you're just thinking, "Children are dying 1719 01:44:06,450 --> 01:44:07,130 And you're just thinking, "Children are dying 1720 01:44:07,170 --> 01:44:09,170 "over such trivial things in this country." 1721 01:44:09,210 --> 01:44:10,210 "over such trivial things in this country." 1722 01:44:10,250 --> 01:44:12,250 We must be doing more for our future generation. 1723 01:44:12,290 --> 01:44:14,050 We must be doing more for our future generation.