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Downloaded from
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{\an8}[dramatic music]
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.LT
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{\an8}[ominous music]
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[light switches click]
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[footsteps approaching]
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[light switch clicks]
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[Gary] When you're photographing
with film,
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there’s always some mystery.
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[suspenseful music]
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But what you do know
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is what you didn’t take.
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[plane engine roaring]
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[typewriter clacking]
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{\an8}[plane engine roaring]
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[reporter] After two runs,
it became obvious
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that the Skyraiders
had picked the wrong target,
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and were bombing their own positions.
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In the distance, we could see
South Vietnamese troops
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frantically scrambling
across the highway to safety.
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As we watched, they gestured
to a group of civilians to join them.
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It was then that the Skyraider
made the third run.
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[loud explosions]
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They dropped four canisters of napalm
on those civilians and troops.
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After few moments, a group
of we press men, who’d been watching,
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moved cautiously down the road
into the smoke.
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The sights which greeted us were awful.
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[suspenseful music]
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After black smoke,
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I saw one woman running first.
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Then another woman carry the baby.
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She called, "Help me, help me.
My grandchild."
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Stopped by all the media,
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and the boy died like one second
after I shot my picture.
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[children crying]
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[reporter]
Almost the first person we saw
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was a little girl aged about nine,
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running up the road.
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She hadn’t got any clothes on.
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She’d presumably torn them off
when they caught fire.
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When I looked through the camera,
I saw the girl.
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Hold her arms like this, running.
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I took a picture of her.
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When she passed me,
I saw her skin come off,
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the body burned so badly,
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I said, "No, I don’t want no more pictures
of her, I think she'll die in minutes."
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[David Burnett]
This was a picture that five of us,
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or six of us,
were looking at in one moment,
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and 24 hours later, probably
a billion people had seen that picture.
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{\an8}[David Ono]
It was printed all over the world.
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[Santiago] It was such a shocking image,
that it seared itself
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into the collective consciousness
of the American people.
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[man] For Nick,
it meant the Pulitzer Prize.
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[woman] Pulitzer Prize and
the 1973 World Press Photo of the Year.
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Ladies and gentlemen, Nick Út.
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[woman] The very famous
AP photographer, Nick Út.
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[man] Nick Út.
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[woman] One of the most influential
and recognizable
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photographs in history.
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[reporter] It was 35 years ago…
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Forty years have passed.
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{\an8}The fiftieth anniversary of
an iconic image.
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{\an8}[reporter] Pope Francis
personally met the woman
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{\an8}known as Napalm Girl,
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and the photojournalist
whose work transformed both of them
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into symbols for peace.
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[woman] How do you reconcile
something so tragic,
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yet something that has brought fame?
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Good luck. [laughs]
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[Carl] Dear Gary, I have carried
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this burden for the past 50 years,
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and never gone public.
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I was AP's Saigon photo editor,
back in 1972,
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at the time of Nick Út shooting
the famous Napalm Girl photo.
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Simply put, Nick didn’t really
take that famous picture.
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It was actually a stringer, or freelancer.
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There's a lot more to this story.
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It’s time to clear my conscience.
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[dramatic music]
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I was a freelance photographer
for two decades.
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It’s a fragile existence.
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All you have is the authorship
of your work.
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It’s your income and it’s your legacy.
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[bicycle chain clacking]
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Some photographs
just transcend all others.
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They capture something,
they represent a story,
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a moment in time,
in a way that other photographs
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simply don’t reach.
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It’s difficult to explain, actually,
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but you kind of know it when you see it.
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[suspenseful music]
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One day in December 2022,
I received an email…
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[Carl] Dear Gary…
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…from someone called Carl Robinson,
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[Carl] I have carried this burden
for the past 50 years. Simply put,
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Nick didn’t really take
that famous picture.
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That’s a hell of an allegation,
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and I was stunned.
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[Carl] While I was certainly complicit…
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[Gary] He was the AP photo editor.
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He was in the room.
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[Carl] …like a repetitive nightmare.
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And he said,
"I’m ready to tell my story,
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I’m ready to share it with the world,
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and I’d like you to help me."
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[dramatic music]
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The photograph of Kim Phúc
is perhaps the most iconic,
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famous photograph of a war ever made.
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It’s sort of sacred ground,
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and the idea that it might
have been made
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by somebody else other than Nick Út
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was devastating, actually.
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So, I thought, well, you know,
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that is an accusation
that needs to be investigated,
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for sure,
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and it might turn out to be incorrect,
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it might turn out that we’ll never know.
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but it’s certainly a question
that demands some answers.
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[plane humming]
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[dramatic music]
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I needed to sit down with Carl.
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These were serious allegations.
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Even though we have friends in common,
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I didn't really know Carl.
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Would I believe him?
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Or is this just a long-held grudge?
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Hey, Carl.
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- How are you?
- Good to see you.
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My whole past is
right in front of me here.
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[chuckles] No kidding!
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Carl, let’s dive straight into Trảng Bàng,
June 8th 1972.
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{\an8}Tell us, how did your day start?
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{\an8}I was usually at work by about
7:30 in the morning,
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looking over the wires, from overnight
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and early reports
on what needed to be covered.
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We did not hear in the AP office,
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that something that
happened at Trảng Bàng.
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We didn’t even know that anything
was going on up the road.
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[Gary] You guys are all back in Saigon.
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What happened, when you got back
from lunch that day?
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[Carl] I came back a bit later than usual,
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like about three o’clock.
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Horst Faas and Peter Arnett
were still having lunch
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at the Royale Hotel,
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and Jackson had already
processed the film.
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Jackson said, "Hey, have a look at this."
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And it was the picture
of this naked young girl,
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running down the road.
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And our first reaction was
we really can’t use that.
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We never show any
frontal nudity of children.
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I went through the film as well,
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I checked the bylines
on who had shot what.
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We had a double-logging system
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in a school exercise book.
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We had about four rolls of film,
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we had Nick Út’s film,
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and from two other stringers, as I recall.
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The full on front picture
was from a stringer,
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I checked his name.
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There was a picture from Nick Út,
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that showed the girl running by
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from a side angle,
and that was actually my pick,
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because it was discreet.
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And that’s when Horst Faas
came back from lunch.
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{\an8}Horst Faas,
the legendary AP photographer,
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{\an8}I guess you’d call him
a hulking sort of guy,
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{\an8}he was a real pro.
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The lab that he had set up there
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in the Associated Press office
was world-class,
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but he was a hard taskmaster, too.
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You never wanted to get offside
with Horst.
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He had a real temper.
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The picture was lying
right there on the desk,
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and he saw that, and it was like, bang!
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That’s what we’re going with.
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There was no question about it.
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It was his call, and he was the boss.
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And then I started writing the caption.
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And I was getting to the end of it,
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I had about four lines,
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and you’d put "STF/"
for staff photographer,
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and for a stringer, you would
put "STR/" and the name.
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And I glanced over to the notebook,
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and Horst Faas, who had been
standing right next to me,
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said, "Nick Út, make it Nick Út.
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Make it staff."
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"Make it Nick Út,"
those were his words exactly.
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And those have been with me
the rest of my life,
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those words.
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But why didn’t you turn round
to Horst and say no?
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I’ve struggled with that
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for the rest of my life, frankly.
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I mean, I owed my job
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to Horst Faas.
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I had been married three years
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and we had two kids,
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and this was my job, this was my living.
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I-I didn’t argue, I just did it.
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And I’ve always felt bad about that,
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my whole life, that I didn’t,
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that I wasn’t courageous enough.
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You know, it’s just one of those things
that preyed on me,
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you’re right, you know, culpability.
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[city humming]
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[Kim Dung] I remember he came back
really late that night,
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and he was very upset,
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{\an8}and he’d go on and on about it's
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{\an8}this little girl with, you know,
burns and everything.
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I recall that he mentioned
that Horst wanted me to put
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Nick Út’s name on this picture,
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but it’s not Nick Út taking it,
somebody else did,
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and he was very upset.
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That’s all I remember.
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Whenever I come through the office,
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the Vietnamese always
come and talk to me.
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[Gary] What did they say?
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They said, "That picture is not Nick Út."
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Would it be fair to say
it was like an open secret
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amongst the Vietnamese--
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- Yes.
- …photographers?
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Carl, we’ve looked through these pictures
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and we can identify
most of the people in them,
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the NBC group, Nick Út,
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but there is somebody
who appears in these photographs,
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I’ve never seen photographs
that have been credited to…
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Do you know who that is?
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I suspect this might be
the guy we’re looking for.
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So, your hypothesis
is that this man is the stringer
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who photographed Kim Phúc from the front?
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[Carl] Yes, exactly.
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An unfamiliar stringer,
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he wasn’t part of
our regular army of stringers.
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It wasn’t a name I was familiar with.
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So, I didn’t remember it.
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[dramatic music]
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Fifty years,
and I’m going to be eighty years old.
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It’s something I really want to do,
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before I pass away,
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is find the real photographer
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and, what, just say sorry, right?
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I know sorry is never enough.
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At least set the record straight,
right, that I,
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you know… I think an apology is
the best thing I can do at this stage.
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Perhaps the only thing you can do?
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Exactly.
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[dramatic music]
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{\an8}[Gary] Nick Út’s status
as the photographer
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{\an8}is almost as well-known
as the photo itself.
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Hold the arms like this,
running.
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Then I run right away…
251
00:14:14,478 --> 00:14:17,064
[Gary] Nick’s brother, Win Tan Mi,
252
00:14:17,148 --> 00:14:18,815
was an actor and photographer
253
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:22,028
who was killed on assignment
for AP in 1965.
254
00:14:23,445 --> 00:14:24,906
The narrative of a village boy
255
00:14:24,989 --> 00:14:26,448
who steps out of the shadow
256
00:14:26,532 --> 00:14:27,867
of his talented elder sibling…
257
00:14:27,950 --> 00:14:29,493
[man] AP is my family now.
258
00:14:29,576 --> 00:14:32,038
[Gary] …and wins a Pulitzer Prize
at the age of 21,
259
00:14:32,621 --> 00:14:34,415
is the stuff of legend.
260
00:14:35,707 --> 00:14:39,253
A legend the AP have promoted
for fifty years,
261
00:14:39,336 --> 00:14:42,756
including in their book and film,
'From Hell to Hollywood.'
262
00:14:43,340 --> 00:14:45,051
I came to LA in 1977
263
00:14:46,052 --> 00:14:47,887
I look at Hollywood and I said, "My God,
264
00:14:48,595 --> 00:14:50,639
Vietnam and Hollywood big difference."
265
00:14:50,722 --> 00:14:53,392
[man] He's a natural
in his ability to get himself
266
00:14:53,475 --> 00:14:55,269
in a good position to take that shot.
267
00:14:55,852 --> 00:14:59,065
[Gary] Turning that legend over
would be rewriting history.
268
00:15:00,066 --> 00:15:03,152
If Nick Út didn’t take it, who did?
269
00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:08,324
{\an8}This is where the AP offices were,
right here.
270
00:15:08,407 --> 00:15:09,909
{\an8}[Terri] This is going to be impossible.
271
00:15:10,492 --> 00:15:12,869
We’re never going to be able to
find this guy.
272
00:15:13,412 --> 00:15:16,832
We have no information about who he is.
273
00:15:17,416 --> 00:15:18,918
We don’t know if he’s alive,
274
00:15:19,001 --> 00:15:20,294
if he’s still in Vietnam,
275
00:15:20,377 --> 00:15:22,379
if he’s in another country.
276
00:15:22,964 --> 00:15:28,552
[speaking Vietnamese] I worked here
much later so I didn't know those people.
277
00:15:29,178 --> 00:15:32,056
He doesn’t know anyone working in the AP.
278
00:15:32,139 --> 00:15:35,017
All he knows is the photographer club.
279
00:15:36,143 --> 00:15:37,686
[dramatic music]
280
00:15:43,943 --> 00:15:46,028
[in Vietnamese] My name is Lê Vân,
281
00:15:46,112 --> 00:15:49,115
and I am a journalist
living in Ho Chi Minh City.
282
00:15:50,241 --> 00:15:52,909
At first this story captured my curiosity
283
00:15:52,994 --> 00:15:55,704
but I wasn't sure
if the story was true or not.
284
00:15:56,247 --> 00:16:00,834
I wanted to know, if it is true,
285
00:16:00,917 --> 00:16:04,880
then how could it have been hidden
for so many years?
286
00:16:04,964 --> 00:16:08,509
When Mr. Carl told me that he wanted to
287
00:16:08,592 --> 00:16:11,637
find the true author of the photo
to say sorry to him -
288
00:16:12,138 --> 00:16:15,682
he sent me a few photographs of the person
289
00:16:15,766 --> 00:16:19,728
who he thought was
the author of the photo.
290
00:16:19,811 --> 00:16:23,649
And from that I started to look for him.
291
00:16:29,738 --> 00:16:31,490
Morning, how are you?
292
00:16:31,573 --> 00:16:32,992
Good to see you. You well?
293
00:16:33,075 --> 00:16:34,910
[Gary] My generation was always trying
294
00:16:34,994 --> 00:16:38,872
to live up to the mythological presence
of the photographers of Vietnam.
295
00:16:42,626 --> 00:16:45,212
AP’s photographic legacy in Vietnam
296
00:16:45,296 --> 00:16:47,881
is built on the four Pulitzers
it won there:
297
00:16:48,549 --> 00:16:51,552
Malcolm Browne’s self-immolating monk,
298
00:16:51,635 --> 00:16:54,471
Horst Faas’s photo essay from 1964,
299
00:16:55,222 --> 00:16:57,724
Eddie Adams’ Vietcong execution,
300
00:16:58,642 --> 00:17:01,145
and the photograph of a nine-year-old girl
301
00:17:01,228 --> 00:17:04,231
{\an8}running from a napalm attack
in Trảng Bàng.
302
00:17:22,708 --> 00:17:26,628
{\an8}She ran out from the temple,
out to the road, in the middle,
303
00:17:26,712 --> 00:17:30,841
then they all ran here. Where we are now.
304
00:17:34,095 --> 00:17:40,851
{\an8}They first bombed in this area, this one,
then continued to others.
305
00:17:42,018 --> 00:17:43,770
This was the first attack.
306
00:17:44,271 --> 00:17:45,897
[Gary] So this would be the napalm
307
00:17:45,981 --> 00:17:46,940
that burned the children?
308
00:17:47,023 --> 00:17:48,525
Yes, napalm
309
00:17:49,568 --> 00:17:52,028
This was me with Kim Phúc's family.
310
00:17:52,113 --> 00:17:52,946
Here's Kim Phúc.
311
00:17:53,447 --> 00:17:54,615
Tâm.
312
00:17:54,698 --> 00:17:57,368
All family. These too, all family.
313
00:17:58,619 --> 00:18:00,204
[Gary, in English] Is this you here?
314
00:18:00,287 --> 00:18:02,331
And where are you, you’re here?
315
00:18:03,374 --> 00:18:05,084
Yes, that's me.
316
00:18:05,167 --> 00:18:06,252
[Gary] Here?
317
00:18:06,335 --> 00:18:08,337
Here, my sister was leading my brother.
318
00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:11,465
There was a lot of screaming.
319
00:18:11,548 --> 00:18:17,638
I stayed calm and peeled off
the bomb pieces
320
00:18:17,721 --> 00:18:23,144
that stuck like burnt rice on them.
321
00:18:23,769 --> 00:18:27,273
So, where were you when the bomb dropped?
322
00:18:27,356 --> 00:18:28,940
I was running.
323
00:18:29,024 --> 00:18:32,569
Then as I was running, the bomb dropped.
324
00:18:33,237 --> 00:18:38,742
I ran with Unit 25 while Kim Phúc was
with her grandmother so she got burned.
325
00:18:38,825 --> 00:18:40,619
[Gary] So you came out with Kim Phúc?
326
00:18:41,578 --> 00:18:45,416
We ran together.
Each group of each side of the bridge,
327
00:18:45,499 --> 00:18:47,918
running, tumbling screaming.
328
00:18:48,001 --> 00:18:50,671
And ran up to the journalists?
329
00:18:50,754 --> 00:18:52,839
Did you understand
who the journalists were,
330
00:18:52,923 --> 00:18:54,175
or what they were doing?
331
00:18:54,258 --> 00:18:55,842
Did you know they were journalists?
332
00:18:55,926 --> 00:18:58,595
No, I didn’t know. I didn’t know
who was taking pictures either.
333
00:18:58,679 --> 00:19:03,099
[Gary] So, this is when some of
the last photographs were taken?
334
00:19:03,184 --> 00:19:06,312
The injured children,
they were taken to the hospital.
335
00:19:06,395 --> 00:19:08,814
Do you have any recollection,
how that happened?
336
00:19:08,897 --> 00:19:10,816
And how did the children get to hospital?
337
00:19:10,899 --> 00:19:13,819
Specifically, how did Kim Phúc
get to hospital?
338
00:19:14,403 --> 00:19:16,112
I saw them putting her in a vehicle.
339
00:19:16,197 --> 00:19:17,323
[Lê Vân, in Vietnamese]
Who put her in a vehicle?
340
00:19:17,406 --> 00:19:20,909
People around, people
helped each other and put her in.
341
00:19:20,992 --> 00:19:22,661
[in Vietnamese] Who were they?
342
00:19:22,744 --> 00:19:24,246
There were many people?
343
00:19:24,330 --> 00:19:25,581
But they were civilians or soldiers?
344
00:19:25,664 --> 00:19:27,749
Civilians, they put her in a vehicle.
345
00:19:28,334 --> 00:19:32,087
Back then, anyone who looked neat,
white and fair-skinned,
346
00:19:32,171 --> 00:19:34,340
we thought they were Americans.
347
00:19:34,423 --> 00:19:39,470
We just said, let them take her to
save her. And it's true, she was saved.
348
00:19:40,762 --> 00:19:46,477
Pàk, is this the man who you saw
take Kim Phúc in the car to hospital?
349
00:19:47,018 --> 00:19:48,354
No. No.
350
00:19:49,313 --> 00:19:52,316
The person was
just a well-dressed civilian.
351
00:19:53,108 --> 00:19:55,652
That's all we remember.
352
00:19:56,778 --> 00:19:59,323
The past is the past, just let it go.
353
00:20:01,408 --> 00:20:03,034
[Gary] Okay, alright, thank you.
354
00:20:03,869 --> 00:20:05,036
[host] Ladies and gentlemen, Nick Út.
355
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:06,121
[applause]
356
00:20:09,541 --> 00:20:10,834
[man] You know,
she shouldn’t have survived.
357
00:20:10,917 --> 00:20:13,086
It was only because Nick
put his camera down,
358
00:20:13,169 --> 00:20:15,256
and he drove her to a hospital.
359
00:20:15,339 --> 00:20:18,967
[speaks with heavy accent] I picked her
up, put her in my company car - the van
360
00:20:19,050 --> 00:20:23,889
and all the kids inside they cry
all the time for 40 minutes, 35 minutes.
361
00:20:23,972 --> 00:20:25,849
We stopped at Cu Chi hospital -
362
00:20:26,683 --> 00:20:28,644
when I showed my media pass,
it worked very well.
363
00:20:28,727 --> 00:20:30,229
They take her inside right away.
364
00:20:44,285 --> 00:20:46,537
[Lê Vân, in Vietnamese]
That photo had a profound impact
365
00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:48,914
on the history of my country.
366
00:20:51,207 --> 00:20:57,589
The "napalm girl" photo helped
the anti-war movement in Vietnam.
367
00:20:57,673 --> 00:21:01,343
And that was extremely meaningful
to the Vietnamese people
368
00:21:01,427 --> 00:21:04,430
who had experienced a long wartime period,
of pain, and loss.
369
00:21:05,764 --> 00:21:09,893
Because of this,
the person who was able to
370
00:21:09,976 --> 00:21:15,607
bring this moment and image to the world
is a hero in Vietnamese history.
371
00:21:16,942 --> 00:21:19,528
- [traffic rumbling]
- [rock music]
372
00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:25,617
[Carl] I saw the entire Vietnam War,
you can say,
373
00:21:25,701 --> 00:21:28,287
from '68 onwards, in black-and-white film.
374
00:21:30,121 --> 00:21:32,333
One thing that I think
outsiders didn’t realize was
375
00:21:32,416 --> 00:21:35,168
how competitive
that Saigon press corps is.
376
00:21:35,752 --> 00:21:38,088
It was more than a thousand
accredited journalists
377
00:21:38,171 --> 00:21:39,840
from all around the world.
378
00:21:40,424 --> 00:21:43,594
{\an8}[Swain] If you heard that
there was an important battle,
379
00:21:43,677 --> 00:21:45,220
{\an8}you would get up really early
in the morning,
380
00:21:45,304 --> 00:21:48,139
to be the first
to get on a helicopter to go there.
381
00:21:49,182 --> 00:21:51,226
You’d be very pleased
if there wasn’t an AP guy
382
00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:52,353
or Reuter's guy there.
383
00:21:53,354 --> 00:21:55,647
[Vietnamese song playing]
384
00:21:59,651 --> 00:22:02,613
{\an8}[Rosenblum] Journalists
had the honorary rank of major,
385
00:22:02,696 --> 00:22:04,823
{\an8}so if you wanted to hop on a helicopter,
386
00:22:04,906 --> 00:22:06,450
and there's some captain waiting in line,
387
00:22:06,533 --> 00:22:08,785
you could just tell them to buzz off.
388
00:22:10,871 --> 00:22:12,748
[Swain] For a young journalist,
389
00:22:12,831 --> 00:22:15,250
it was a real adventure playground.
390
00:22:15,334 --> 00:22:19,129
I have to confess, I was more interested
in the adventure, perhaps,
391
00:22:19,212 --> 00:22:22,007
than the actual human impact of the war.
392
00:22:23,425 --> 00:22:24,593
And the more time I spent,
393
00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:26,470
I realized how horrific it was.
394
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,643
During the operation,
53 enemy were killed,
395
00:22:33,727 --> 00:22:36,021
856 suspects were detained.
396
00:22:37,105 --> 00:22:40,316
[Fox] There was a kind of camaraderie
of the press
397
00:22:40,401 --> 00:22:41,943
going out during the day,
398
00:22:42,027 --> 00:22:45,071
{\an8}maybe going into a battle situation,
399
00:22:45,155 --> 00:22:47,240
{\an8}and then coming back at night,
400
00:22:48,409 --> 00:22:52,162
totally separated
from the vulnerability of the people.
401
00:22:52,245 --> 00:22:53,497
It was surreal,
402
00:22:54,039 --> 00:22:57,709
and you could see the bullets
being fired all around the city,
403
00:22:58,460 --> 00:23:01,046
and you were sitting watching,
404
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,715
and having a gin and tonic.
405
00:23:07,844 --> 00:23:09,179
Carl and I were friends,
406
00:23:09,262 --> 00:23:11,640
but we were a different breed.
407
00:23:12,223 --> 00:23:13,850
We were local hires.
408
00:23:15,226 --> 00:23:16,978
We both had Vietnamese wives.
409
00:23:18,271 --> 00:23:21,608
We would go out at night and drink beer,
410
00:23:21,692 --> 00:23:25,320
and just be with the Vietnamese.
411
00:23:27,823 --> 00:23:31,660
And we both had a respect for the richness
412
00:23:31,743 --> 00:23:35,539
of the Vietnamese culture,
and the vulnerability of the people.
413
00:23:37,499 --> 00:23:40,836
[Carl] The Associated Press office
was an amazing school,
414
00:23:40,919 --> 00:23:43,296
an amazing place to learn,
as I did myself.
415
00:23:43,379 --> 00:23:45,841
- [gunfire]
- The Easter Offensive,
416
00:23:45,924 --> 00:23:49,344
which had begun in March, April '72
417
00:23:49,427 --> 00:23:52,055
a lot of the U.S. ground troops
had already been pulled out.
418
00:23:52,138 --> 00:23:54,099
As part of the wind down,
419
00:23:54,182 --> 00:23:56,727
Western news agencies
were also cutting back on staff.
420
00:23:57,310 --> 00:23:59,605
By that stage,
I was actually the photo editor.
421
00:24:00,772 --> 00:24:02,107
So when the offensive broke,
422
00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:04,317
we were short-handed, right? [chuckles]
423
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,488
In a bit of trouble there, you could say.
424
00:24:07,571 --> 00:24:09,322
We lost a plane, a UPI.
425
00:24:10,406 --> 00:24:12,909
So Horst Faas came back from Singapore,
426
00:24:12,993 --> 00:24:15,370
and he basically took over photos for me.
427
00:24:16,497 --> 00:24:19,666
There were key figures
of the Saigon press corps.
428
00:24:19,750 --> 00:24:21,835
Horst Faas, who was a legendary figure.
429
00:24:22,503 --> 00:24:24,755
His word was law in the AP bureau.
430
00:24:25,296 --> 00:24:28,133
He’d worked with Peter Arnett,
and other Pulitzer Prize winners,
431
00:24:28,216 --> 00:24:29,425
and so it would surely matter.
432
00:24:30,176 --> 00:24:31,887
[Rosenblum] Horst was this beefy guy
433
00:24:31,970 --> 00:24:33,555
with this wonderful Bavarian accent,
434
00:24:34,347 --> 00:24:36,642
drank a decent amount, ate well,
435
00:24:36,725 --> 00:24:38,143
was a tremendous photographer.
436
00:24:38,727 --> 00:24:40,896
Nothing came between Horst
and a good picture.
437
00:24:40,979 --> 00:24:43,398
[Carl]
We had our corps of Western
438
00:24:43,481 --> 00:24:46,610
and a few Vietnamese staff photographers.
439
00:24:46,693 --> 00:24:49,362
And then we had Faas’ army of stringers,
440
00:24:49,445 --> 00:24:52,032
or freelancers, all over the place.
441
00:24:53,116 --> 00:24:55,869
[Jon] They relied so heavily
on Vietnamese photographers
442
00:24:55,952 --> 00:24:57,996
who would go out, days on end,
443
00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:00,331
into the field, laden with film,
444
00:25:00,415 --> 00:25:02,375
you know, perhaps come back
a week or two later.
445
00:25:03,376 --> 00:25:06,129
[Carl] Mostly South Vietnamese Army
photographers,
446
00:25:06,212 --> 00:25:07,923
who wanted to make
a bit of money on the side,
447
00:25:08,006 --> 00:25:09,675
they’d give us the film.
448
00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:12,343
You’d type a receipt, get them to sign it,
449
00:25:12,427 --> 00:25:14,512
and then give it to the office secretary,
450
00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:16,097
and she would pay them in green back,
451
00:25:16,181 --> 00:25:18,474
twenty dollars, green.
452
00:25:21,937 --> 00:25:23,772
[Gary] Carl, this photograph…
453
00:25:23,855 --> 00:25:27,067
at what point in the AP office,
454
00:25:27,150 --> 00:25:31,404
did you realize
what this photograph represented?
455
00:25:32,155 --> 00:25:34,866
Well, the immediate reaction
was the very next morning,
456
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:36,743
when it had indeed gone out to the world,
457
00:25:36,827 --> 00:25:38,620
and the reaction was coming in.
458
00:25:38,704 --> 00:25:40,455
That’s when we realized, bang,
459
00:25:40,538 --> 00:25:42,833
that really is going to be a big story.
460
00:25:44,167 --> 00:25:47,713
The children seen in
this photograph were victims today
461
00:25:47,796 --> 00:25:49,505
of the South Vietnamese Air Force.
462
00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:50,799
[suspenseful music]
463
00:25:54,803 --> 00:25:58,348
[crowd chanting, protesting]
464
00:25:58,431 --> 00:26:02,060
One, two, three, four.
We don't want your fucking war!
465
00:26:19,577 --> 00:26:24,833
[Bui] This picture didn’t have impact
in Vietnam at that time.
466
00:26:25,959 --> 00:26:28,253
{\an8}If, a big if,
467
00:26:29,379 --> 00:26:32,007
{\an8}we got the news about a girl
468
00:26:32,507 --> 00:26:34,550
{\an8}burned by napalm bombs,
469
00:26:35,385 --> 00:26:37,638
it was just a scan,
470
00:26:38,554 --> 00:26:40,265
passing by very fast.
471
00:26:40,348 --> 00:26:42,976
It was much less important
472
00:26:43,059 --> 00:26:47,689
than the news about, say, one, ten,
473
00:26:47,773 --> 00:26:50,400
a hundred, even a thousand
people killed a day.
474
00:26:55,989 --> 00:26:58,909
[Fox] I think I got a call from Carl,
475
00:26:58,992 --> 00:27:00,702
if I could come to the AP office
476
00:27:00,786 --> 00:27:03,121
to help him find someone in a hospital.
477
00:27:03,204 --> 00:27:05,957
AP was demanding a follow-up story and
478
00:27:06,041 --> 00:27:09,585
I had to go out and find this napalm girl
479
00:27:09,670 --> 00:27:11,421
wherever she was,
480
00:27:11,504 --> 00:27:15,300
and Nick Út wasn’t saying,
hey, I’ll go with you on that.
481
00:27:15,383 --> 00:27:18,178
He didn’t tell us in the office
where she was.
482
00:27:19,512 --> 00:27:22,098
Tom Fox and our other staff photographer,
483
00:27:22,182 --> 00:27:24,935
the three of us
went out on our motorbikes.
484
00:27:25,643 --> 00:27:29,105
[Fox] I do remember clearly
finding Kim Phúc,
485
00:27:29,189 --> 00:27:34,194
standing at her bed with Carl.
486
00:27:34,277 --> 00:27:38,031
She was fully bandaged,
surrounded by a net,
487
00:27:38,114 --> 00:27:39,825
and she was conscious.
488
00:27:41,284 --> 00:27:43,704
I was feeling outraged,
489
00:27:44,370 --> 00:27:50,543
and being so moved by this tragedy,
490
00:27:50,626 --> 00:27:53,046
and by the smell.
491
00:27:55,673 --> 00:27:58,844
She reeked of burnt flesh,
492
00:28:00,762 --> 00:28:05,934
which was just very, very, very difficult.
493
00:28:06,684 --> 00:28:08,019
Very, very difficult.
494
00:28:11,857 --> 00:28:14,776
[Carl] Through Tom,
I interviewed her father
495
00:28:14,860 --> 00:28:16,569
and got the whole story.
496
00:28:20,490 --> 00:28:22,242
[man] There was never any story
like Vietnam.
497
00:28:22,325 --> 00:28:24,119
Vietnam took something out of us.
498
00:28:24,202 --> 00:28:26,997
[Gary] So, Carl, where did you learn
the name of the stringer?
499
00:28:27,914 --> 00:28:31,334
[Carl] In 2010, we had a reunion
called Vietnam Old Hacks.
500
00:28:31,417 --> 00:28:34,295
[man] The Old Hacks has revealed
aspects of Carl
501
00:28:34,379 --> 00:28:36,006
that none of us suspected.
502
00:28:36,089 --> 00:28:38,967
And my wife, Kim Dung,
was sitting with a combat photographer
503
00:28:39,050 --> 00:28:41,594
in the Saigon press corps
who'd heard the name.
504
00:28:44,264 --> 00:28:47,809
[Kim Dung] The reunion was quite big,
a lot of catching up.
505
00:28:47,893 --> 00:28:50,771
In the distance,
Nick Út would show up something.
506
00:28:50,854 --> 00:28:53,774
Somebody else said to me,
"Did you hear this new one?"
507
00:28:54,733 --> 00:28:56,943
"We know the name of the guy now."
508
00:28:57,527 --> 00:28:58,820
[Gary] Could you repeat the name for me?
509
00:28:58,904 --> 00:29:00,655
Nghệ. Nghệ.
510
00:29:02,115 --> 00:29:04,325
A very rare Vietnamese name.
511
00:29:05,326 --> 00:29:07,495
[upbeat music]
512
00:29:10,623 --> 00:29:13,501
[Lê Vân, in Vietnamese]
Finding the stringer will be difficult
513
00:29:13,584 --> 00:29:15,420
because this story took place so long ago.
514
00:29:16,129 --> 00:29:21,717
The people who could possibly know
have either passed away
515
00:29:21,802 --> 00:29:25,680
or resettled to a foreign country,
and their whereabouts are unclear.
516
00:29:27,682 --> 00:29:32,771
{\an8}When we posted on Facebook,
the information was very vague.
517
00:29:34,564 --> 00:29:36,232
So, I didn’t have high hopes.
518
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,280
"Gary, I enjoyed chatting
with you yesterday,
519
00:29:42,363 --> 00:29:46,451
but my legal counsel has advised me
not to be in the film.
520
00:29:46,534 --> 00:29:48,078
I’m sorry, but I keep declining,
521
00:29:48,161 --> 00:29:51,622
you keep pushing, but
I can’t really do more than I’ve done."
522
00:29:51,706 --> 00:29:54,417
That’s just so disappointing.
523
00:29:54,500 --> 00:29:55,919
He is the second Western journalist
524
00:29:56,002 --> 00:29:57,628
that we’ve approached,
that agreed to an interview
525
00:29:57,712 --> 00:29:59,297
and has then backed out.
526
00:29:59,380 --> 00:30:03,176
So, who do we think
was on the road that day?
527
00:30:03,259 --> 00:30:06,512
[Gary] In this photograph,
accredited by AP to Nick Út,
528
00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:09,140
we identify the NBC crew,
529
00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:12,894
the British ITN crew,
530
00:30:12,978 --> 00:30:14,645
the New York Times reporter,
531
00:30:15,521 --> 00:30:18,108
the Chicago Tribune reporter,
532
00:30:18,191 --> 00:30:23,238
and several who we believe are freelance
or military photographers.
533
00:30:23,321 --> 00:30:25,281
{\an8}[man] So, for everyone just joining us,
534
00:30:25,365 --> 00:30:28,743
I have David Burnett here,
world-renowned photojournalist.
535
00:30:28,827 --> 00:30:32,163
{\an8}[Fiona] David Burnett, he was both
in Trảng Bàng at the time,
536
00:30:32,247 --> 00:30:35,375
{\an8}and then he was also
in the AP office that afternoon.
537
00:30:35,458 --> 00:30:37,168
{\an8}Everybody thinks that's me
on the right.
538
00:30:37,252 --> 00:30:38,628
- [interviewer] It's not you?
- No, that's not me.
539
00:30:38,711 --> 00:30:39,795
That's not you. Okay.
540
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,924
[Gary] David has repeatedly said
he has no doubt
541
00:30:43,008 --> 00:30:44,634
that Nick took the picture.
542
00:30:44,717 --> 00:30:47,595
[Burnett] We could see people
running out of the smoke,
543
00:30:47,678 --> 00:30:49,722
up the road toward us, and
544
00:30:49,805 --> 00:30:52,934
Nick and another journalist
just took off running
545
00:30:53,018 --> 00:30:54,310
down the road immediately.
546
00:30:54,394 --> 00:30:56,312
You know, it took me another 30 seconds…
547
00:30:56,396 --> 00:30:58,481
{\an8}to get my camera loaded.
548
00:30:58,564 --> 00:31:02,277
{\an8}In those 30 seconds,
that's where Nicky made his picture.
549
00:31:03,069 --> 00:31:04,487
But David, by his own account,
550
00:31:04,570 --> 00:31:06,907
didn’t see who took the photograph,
551
00:31:06,990 --> 00:31:11,286
And I remember being in
the office room of the AP photo section,
552
00:31:11,369 --> 00:31:14,789
when the techie came out
with this little 5x7 wet print.
553
00:31:14,873 --> 00:31:18,626
{\an8}And Horst Faas says, "Well,
you did good work today, Nick Út."
554
00:31:18,709 --> 00:31:20,461
{\an8}- [chuckles]
- Go send it.
555
00:31:20,545 --> 00:31:23,381
{\an8}So, in the same way that
Peter Arnett always says,
556
00:31:23,464 --> 00:31:25,008
you know, hey, I was in the AP office,
557
00:31:25,091 --> 00:31:28,094
I know what happened,
Peter wasn’t a witness
558
00:31:28,178 --> 00:31:29,679
to what went down in the photo room.
559
00:31:29,762 --> 00:31:31,014
There were very few witnesses
560
00:31:31,097 --> 00:31:32,848
to what went down in the photo room.
561
00:31:35,101 --> 00:31:38,688
To undermine AP in Vietnam,
562
00:31:38,771 --> 00:31:41,942
and to undermine Horst Faas,
is a big deal,
563
00:31:42,025 --> 00:31:45,445
and all of their legacies
are wrapped up in that memory.
564
00:31:46,696 --> 00:31:50,866
Okay, so then what about the Vietnamese
that haven't talked to us?
565
00:31:50,951 --> 00:31:52,493
[Gary] We’ve got the NBC guys.
566
00:31:52,577 --> 00:31:55,288
[Fiona] Võ Sửu and Trần Văn Thân.
567
00:31:55,371 --> 00:31:57,040
[Terri] Võ Sửu has said no.
568
00:31:58,208 --> 00:32:01,127
{\an8}I did call ---- up one day,
and I asked him about this
569
00:32:01,211 --> 00:32:05,006
{\an8}and he said, "Talk to Carl. He's telling
the truth." That's all he would say.
570
00:32:05,090 --> 00:32:06,132
Okay.
571
00:32:06,216 --> 00:32:08,343
He wouldn't go beyond that.
572
00:32:09,970 --> 00:32:15,766
The whole story is not about
Nick stealing a picture,
573
00:32:15,850 --> 00:32:18,728
it was something that happened to Nick.
574
00:32:20,771 --> 00:32:22,732
Well, he was never consulted, right?
575
00:32:22,815 --> 00:32:25,110
- No.
- As far as we know from Carl.
576
00:32:25,193 --> 00:32:29,364
It was just given to him,
so it’s a suicide pass, you know?
577
00:32:30,031 --> 00:32:31,992
Somebody threw him a hot rock.
578
00:32:32,075 --> 00:32:34,744
He’s, in many ways, a victim too.
579
00:32:35,578 --> 00:32:37,205
And we have to treat him
with the, you know,
580
00:32:37,288 --> 00:32:39,582
appropriate dignity and respect, right?
581
00:32:42,127 --> 00:32:46,714
[dramatic music]
582
00:33:05,483 --> 00:33:07,110
- [Fiona] Terri?
- Yeah.
583
00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:12,157
So, this Skyraider is dropping
the napalm here,
584
00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:14,700
we can see the line of press here,
585
00:33:14,784 --> 00:33:18,413
the explosions, we can see Nick Út here,
586
00:33:18,496 --> 00:33:22,333
with his camera bags and the poncho,
587
00:33:22,417 --> 00:33:24,585
his helmet, very obvious,
588
00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:29,549
and he’s always said that
the grandmother came out first,
589
00:33:30,341 --> 00:33:32,802
and this man’s carrying
the second baby.
590
00:33:33,928 --> 00:33:36,306
And then, that’s the image,
591
00:33:36,389 --> 00:33:38,891
and this is the subsequent frame.
592
00:33:39,725 --> 00:33:42,562
Here, this is a picture by Nick Út,
593
00:33:42,645 --> 00:33:46,441
but, interestingly,
it’s taken from the Saigon side,
594
00:33:46,524 --> 00:33:50,153
facing towards all of the smoke,
595
00:33:50,236 --> 00:33:53,281
and then the row of photographers
is turned around,
596
00:33:53,364 --> 00:33:55,491
the children have run past,
597
00:33:56,284 --> 00:33:59,204
and then, you see who we see here?
598
00:34:00,330 --> 00:34:02,415
We can see Nick Út,
599
00:34:02,498 --> 00:34:06,127
but he’s actually not with
the group of media
600
00:34:06,211 --> 00:34:08,213
who have captured the image of Kim Phúc
601
00:34:08,296 --> 00:34:11,924
running up the road,
and are now coming towards…
602
00:34:12,007 --> 00:34:13,634
[Terri] Towards Saigon,
away from the temple.
603
00:34:13,718 --> 00:34:15,220
Yeah, yeah.
604
00:34:16,387 --> 00:34:19,432
- So, if we give this sequencing--
- Yeah.
605
00:34:19,515 --> 00:34:22,685
- to the forensic experts--
- Right.
606
00:34:22,768 --> 00:34:25,105
they should be able to help us in
607
00:34:25,188 --> 00:34:27,107
determining who was the person
608
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:29,984
who was in the position
to take the photograph.
609
00:34:30,610 --> 00:34:33,113
- With some probability.
- Right.
610
00:34:33,196 --> 00:34:35,406
[Gary] There's a leading
forensic group in Paris,
611
00:34:35,490 --> 00:34:37,658
called INDEX Investigation,
612
00:34:37,742 --> 00:34:39,744
who could look at this for us.
613
00:34:40,495 --> 00:34:41,954
Even if they’re inconclusive,
614
00:34:42,037 --> 00:34:43,581
the fact that you’ve tried
615
00:34:43,664 --> 00:34:45,500
means that you’re honest brokers, right?
616
00:34:46,709 --> 00:34:49,003
[dramatic music]
617
00:34:53,341 --> 00:34:55,135
When the photograph,
you know, nine months later,
618
00:34:55,218 --> 00:34:57,052
a year later,
when the photograph went on
619
00:34:57,137 --> 00:34:59,472
to win the Pulitzer,
the World Press Photo Award,
620
00:34:59,555 --> 00:35:00,973
the Overseas Press Club Award,
621
00:35:01,056 --> 00:35:02,808
wouldn’t that have been a time
for you to come out,
622
00:35:02,892 --> 00:35:04,352
and tell the truth?
623
00:35:04,435 --> 00:35:06,979
It was all too late by then, I dare say.
624
00:35:07,062 --> 00:35:08,731
We shoved it under the carpet.
625
00:35:09,399 --> 00:35:10,691
We never talked about it.
626
00:35:11,192 --> 00:35:12,193
Why?
627
00:35:12,777 --> 00:35:14,654
Horst Faas was not really the sort of guy
628
00:35:14,737 --> 00:35:16,322
you’d want to argue with.
629
00:35:16,406 --> 00:35:19,950
I wasn’t in a position to
make a fuss about it.
630
00:35:20,576 --> 00:35:22,328
But why wait until Horst was dead?
631
00:35:22,412 --> 00:35:24,664
I don’t think it’s very fair
that I was waiting
632
00:35:24,747 --> 00:35:26,874
until he passed away.
633
00:35:27,958 --> 00:35:29,710
I mean, I have talked about it privately
634
00:35:29,794 --> 00:35:31,796
over the years with people.
635
00:35:31,879 --> 00:35:33,423
[loud chatter]
636
00:35:33,506 --> 00:35:35,466
Horst Faas was like my superior.
637
00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:39,929
I was just typing the caption "STF slash…"
638
00:35:41,181 --> 00:35:43,057
At Vietnam Old Hacks,
639
00:35:43,141 --> 00:35:45,393
and I reached out to Arnett, to say, look,
640
00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:46,644
I don’t know if you know this story,
641
00:35:46,727 --> 00:35:47,728
but this is what really happened.
642
00:35:47,812 --> 00:35:50,898
It was like I was
pouring out my heart to him.
643
00:35:51,482 --> 00:35:52,900
[Gary] And I’ve got to hear, you know,
644
00:35:52,983 --> 00:35:55,403
something from Arnett, Peter Arnett,
645
00:35:55,945 --> 00:35:58,072
legendary Pulitzer Prize winning
646
00:35:58,156 --> 00:36:00,408
AP correspondent
from the Vietnam War,
647
00:36:00,491 --> 00:36:04,036
a very close pal of Horst, who says:
648
00:36:04,119 --> 00:36:06,456
“Dear Carl, frankly,
I’m shocked by your story.
649
00:36:06,539 --> 00:36:08,291
You must be aware that the AP,
650
00:36:08,374 --> 00:36:09,917
with all its resources,
651
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,253
and Horst, and his many friends
652
00:36:12,337 --> 00:36:13,879
along with Nick Út himself,
653
00:36:13,963 --> 00:36:15,506
and his Vietnamese associates,
654
00:36:15,590 --> 00:36:17,258
will do everything possible
655
00:36:17,342 --> 00:36:20,094
to discredit you and your assertions,
656
00:36:20,178 --> 00:36:23,431
and challenge all of what you say.”
657
00:36:23,514 --> 00:36:25,140
That’s pretty heavy.
658
00:36:25,225 --> 00:36:28,060
In fact, pretty remarkable from Arnett.
659
00:36:28,143 --> 00:36:30,605
What’s the date on that?
660
00:36:30,688 --> 00:36:32,857
August 5th, 2009.
661
00:36:34,650 --> 00:36:38,529
And again, in 2015, on a public forum,
662
00:36:38,613 --> 00:36:40,155
you heard from Arnett.
663
00:36:40,906 --> 00:36:45,495
[Carl] "The AP Management is well aware
of Robinson's patently false
664
00:36:45,578 --> 00:36:48,414
private claims
made over the past few years.
665
00:36:48,498 --> 00:36:51,251
And will robustly defend
Nick's reputation
666
00:36:51,334 --> 00:36:53,168
based on witness statements
667
00:36:53,253 --> 00:36:56,256
and AP photographic records
of that period
668
00:36:56,339 --> 00:36:58,341
if he decides to go public."
669
00:37:03,346 --> 00:37:07,182
Peter Arnett claims
that senior AP management
670
00:37:07,267 --> 00:37:09,769
are aware of your accusations.
671
00:37:10,561 --> 00:37:11,937
Have they ever reached out to you?
672
00:37:12,021 --> 00:37:15,190
No. They’ve never approached me.
673
00:37:15,275 --> 00:37:18,528
Did you ever think of contacting Nick,
674
00:37:18,611 --> 00:37:21,572
and, you know, addressing this
with him directly?
675
00:37:21,656 --> 00:37:24,659
When Nick retired formally from the AP,
676
00:37:24,742 --> 00:37:26,786
I sent him a personal email,
677
00:37:27,662 --> 00:37:31,749
and said, "Look, you know
that I know the real story here."
678
00:37:31,832 --> 00:37:33,083
You want to just get off the stage
679
00:37:33,167 --> 00:37:35,628
and enjoy your retirement.
680
00:37:35,711 --> 00:37:37,255
But he just kept going…
681
00:37:37,338 --> 00:37:38,798
I think in a Vietnamese way,
682
00:37:38,881 --> 00:37:40,425
he should have just been a lot more
683
00:37:40,508 --> 00:37:42,510
humble about it, humility.
684
00:37:42,593 --> 00:37:45,763
[dramatic music]
685
00:37:59,068 --> 00:38:03,238
{\an8}Which is better, which is right?
686
00:38:04,407 --> 00:38:08,243
{\an8}The myth that comes with the injustice?
687
00:38:08,869 --> 00:38:11,914
Or poking that myth for truth?
688
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,672
There is a whole side of the story
689
00:38:19,755 --> 00:38:22,675
that is not being recorded,
690
00:38:23,468 --> 00:38:26,637
and that’s the person
who took the picture.
691
00:38:28,138 --> 00:38:31,642
And from the day he took the picture,
692
00:38:31,726 --> 00:38:34,354
was excluded from reality,
693
00:38:34,895 --> 00:38:36,814
and what is that like?
694
00:38:36,897 --> 00:38:40,568
And what is that like
for his wife and children?
695
00:38:41,611 --> 00:38:45,490
That story deserves justice.
696
00:39:00,295 --> 00:39:01,631
[soft music]
697
00:39:03,132 --> 00:39:08,638
{\an8}[in English, accented] One of my friends,
he post that thing on the Facebook.
698
00:39:09,221 --> 00:39:12,016
{\an8}First of all, I recognized
the name right away
699
00:39:12,099 --> 00:39:16,020
because Nghệ is my close friend
and co-worker too.
700
00:39:16,103 --> 00:39:20,441
And I read the story,
and I see the picture.
701
00:39:21,191 --> 00:39:27,490
{\an8}I called Nghệ right away, and I said,
"Nghệ, your story come true!"
702
00:39:28,949 --> 00:39:33,328
He said, "Really?
Some people are looking for me?"
703
00:39:33,413 --> 00:39:35,915
So he got very, very excited.
704
00:39:37,792 --> 00:39:42,963
"Oh, my God! People are going
to know the truth very soon."
705
00:39:49,136 --> 00:39:51,180
[Lê Vân, in Vietnamese]
The only thing we could do was wait.
706
00:39:52,682 --> 00:39:58,062
But about three days later,
three or four days later,
707
00:39:58,145 --> 00:40:02,858
after we posted on Facebook,
while I was sitting at a café,
708
00:40:02,942 --> 00:40:07,112
my phone rang, and I received a call.
709
00:40:09,865 --> 00:40:11,826
I'll always remember this moment,
710
00:40:11,909 --> 00:40:14,036
and I had to ask him to repeat it twice.
711
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:17,289
He said, "Mr. Nghệ just called me.
712
00:40:17,372 --> 00:40:20,876
This is Nghệ.
I'm the one you're looking for."
713
00:40:21,752 --> 00:40:25,047
And after that I took off my glasses,
and put my head down,
714
00:40:25,130 --> 00:40:27,382
and sobbed.
715
00:40:30,344 --> 00:40:33,263
He was only going to be in Vietnam
for one more month.
716
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,561
That's why I felt I had to
leave immediately to meet him.
717
00:41:10,259 --> 00:41:12,595
He had been waiting for us
since early morning
718
00:41:12,678 --> 00:41:15,222
when he learned we would come to visit.
719
00:41:17,432 --> 00:41:20,144
He hadn't eaten anything,
just sat and waited.
720
00:41:27,026 --> 00:41:28,528
[dramatic music]
721
00:41:29,153 --> 00:41:33,866
So, when I saw him, a real life person
722
00:41:33,949 --> 00:41:38,496
standing in front of me,
an elderly man…
723
00:41:38,579 --> 00:41:42,583
it's difficult to describe
how I felt at that moment.
724
00:41:44,835 --> 00:41:46,837
[Vinh Râu]
Which photo was yours?
725
00:41:46,921 --> 00:41:52,259
The one with the naked girl
whose clothes were burned.
726
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,512
The one that won the Pulitzer later on?
727
00:41:54,595 --> 00:41:55,721
That's the one, yes.
728
00:41:55,805 --> 00:42:01,351
Nick Út came with me on that assignment.
But he didn't take that photo.
729
00:42:01,435 --> 00:42:04,188
He just took some pictures from afar.
730
00:42:04,271 --> 00:42:06,607
That photo was mine.
731
00:42:06,691 --> 00:42:09,193
The AP guy accepted the photo
732
00:42:09,276 --> 00:42:14,824
and gave me a print
and the rest of the film.
733
00:42:16,075 --> 00:42:20,955
I gave the rest to a journalist in Saigon.
734
00:42:21,038 --> 00:42:23,332
Who did you sell it to?
735
00:42:23,415 --> 00:42:26,627
The boss. Then the next day
I went back and
736
00:42:26,711 --> 00:42:29,630
he gave me a print -- this big --
737
00:42:30,214 --> 00:42:34,677
and he gave me $20 and said,
"I'll take this photo."
738
00:42:35,260 --> 00:42:41,266
I took the $20 and took the other guys
for a drink. That's it.
739
00:42:45,646 --> 00:42:49,650
[Lê Vân] Normally when a news agency
bought photos from you,
740
00:42:49,734 --> 00:42:55,155
did they credit your name
when publishing them?
741
00:42:55,239 --> 00:43:00,369
No, rarely.
Only on some special occasions.
742
00:43:00,452 --> 00:43:06,166
Normally after I get back from a shoot,
I would just give them all the film.
743
00:43:06,250 --> 00:43:10,337
They do what they do,
and I wouldn't question them.
744
00:43:13,674 --> 00:43:17,219
[Lê Vân]
After meeting Nghệ, I felt incredible joy.
745
00:43:24,935 --> 00:43:26,646
[Gary] I wake up one morning
746
00:43:26,729 --> 00:43:29,314
and I see the news on WhatsApp.
747
00:43:31,191 --> 00:43:33,986
We’ve got an iPhone recording of Nghệ,
748
00:43:34,069 --> 00:43:35,613
and it is indeed him
749
00:43:35,696 --> 00:43:38,157
that takes the photograph.
750
00:43:39,491 --> 00:43:41,118
Incredible news.
751
00:43:42,202 --> 00:43:47,667
We shared our search for Nghệ
with his daughter.
752
00:44:08,562 --> 00:44:11,440
I called him, I said,
"What’s up, Dad?"
753
00:44:11,523 --> 00:44:13,108
He said, "Guess what?
754
00:44:13,776 --> 00:44:16,528
You won’t believe,
somebody’s looking for me.
755
00:44:16,611 --> 00:44:20,449
They knew about my picture," he said.
756
00:44:20,532 --> 00:44:22,117
"I went to lunch with them,
757
00:44:22,201 --> 00:44:24,954
they told me they want to do the story.
758
00:44:25,037 --> 00:44:27,331
They know about me and everything.
759
00:44:27,957 --> 00:44:29,374
Would you believe that?"
760
00:44:34,379 --> 00:44:35,756
[rain falling]
761
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,967
[Lê Vân, in Vietnamese]
What happened afterwards
762
00:44:38,050 --> 00:44:40,720
was very strange and unbelievable.
763
00:44:40,803 --> 00:44:46,016
I texted Mr. Nghệ to see
how he was and keep in touch,
764
00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:52,690
but I didn't get a reply for
a whole night and the next morning.
765
00:44:52,773 --> 00:44:55,985
The next day I tried to reach him again.
766
00:44:56,068 --> 00:45:01,866
I called all night and all morning,
but I still didn't get a reply.
767
00:45:04,326 --> 00:45:07,121
[in English]
I call again, but he didn’t answer.
768
00:45:07,204 --> 00:45:09,749
I kept calling, calling, calling.
769
00:45:10,624 --> 00:45:13,919
[in Vietnamese]
So, the next afternoon I called again.
770
00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:20,342
Mr. Nghệ's friend answered the phone
771
00:45:20,425 --> 00:45:25,014
and told me he just had a stroke.
772
00:45:26,891 --> 00:45:32,772
She said he might go into a coma, and
his condition was serious. Very serious.
773
00:45:36,608 --> 00:45:39,111
It made me so emotional
774
00:45:39,194 --> 00:45:44,158
thinking of him lying in the hospital,
775
00:45:44,241 --> 00:45:48,328
with life and death so precarious.
776
00:45:48,412 --> 00:45:52,041
I remembered something he told me:
777
00:45:52,124 --> 00:45:56,921
"If I don't have any evidence,
then I'm zero,
778
00:45:57,004 --> 00:46:01,258
while the other person is a hero."
779
00:46:01,341 --> 00:46:02,802
[rain falling]
780
00:46:07,139 --> 00:46:08,390
[Jannie, in English] My father,
781
00:46:09,975 --> 00:46:13,938
he was born by the mistress
of my grandfather.
782
00:46:15,772 --> 00:46:17,691
They didn’t want him,
783
00:46:17,774 --> 00:46:20,360
so, they gave him away to the family
784
00:46:21,070 --> 00:46:23,113
who worked for my grandparents,
785
00:46:23,197 --> 00:46:25,240
who loved him very much.
786
00:46:26,366 --> 00:46:30,830
My dad left the village,
and he went to Saigon.
787
00:46:31,956 --> 00:46:35,709
So, he enrolled himself
into the photography school.
788
00:46:36,919 --> 00:46:39,088
That’s where he met my mom.
789
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,508
She was a hairdresser just next door.
790
00:46:44,009 --> 00:46:47,346
So, they got married,
and then they had three of us.
791
00:46:49,932 --> 00:46:54,061
He joined the army,
but he just takes the picture.
792
00:46:54,144 --> 00:46:57,982
The army sent him to the U.S. to study,
793
00:46:58,065 --> 00:47:01,026
and that’s where he got the certificate.
794
00:47:03,820 --> 00:47:06,907
{\an8}[Nghệ, in Vietnamese]
They promoted me to Lieutenant because
795
00:47:06,991 --> 00:47:12,955
I had that certificate
from the Psy-Ops Bureau.
796
00:47:14,081 --> 00:47:19,336
I worked in the film department
for news gathering.
797
00:47:21,213 --> 00:47:25,009
[Jannie, in Vietnamese]
When in 1975 did you emigrate to the U.S.?
798
00:47:25,592 --> 00:47:30,055
[Nghệ]
One month before the North arrived.
799
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,599
Because I worked for the U.S. Embassy,
800
00:47:33,725 --> 00:47:37,271
they prioritized the people
who were in charge of important jobs.
801
00:47:39,023 --> 00:47:43,027
[Jannie, in English]
I remember very clearly my dad,
802
00:47:43,110 --> 00:47:46,613
he just like, "You have to get ready,
803
00:47:46,696 --> 00:47:48,198
we are leaving."
804
00:47:49,033 --> 00:47:52,912
They make the announcement
that you are not on vacation,
805
00:47:52,995 --> 00:47:55,247
you are leaving your country.
806
00:48:04,965 --> 00:48:07,342
So, that’s how we got here.
807
00:48:14,934 --> 00:48:16,476
[knock on door]
808
00:48:22,024 --> 00:48:25,777
Hi, Gary, how are you?
Very nice to meet you.
809
00:48:25,860 --> 00:48:29,031
Fantastic to see you.
You look great. How are you?
810
00:48:29,114 --> 00:48:30,950
Okay, I’m okay. How are you?
811
00:48:31,033 --> 00:48:34,369
I’m very good, very happy to
see you in good shape.
812
00:48:34,453 --> 00:48:37,998
Fantastic. Shall we head in?
813
00:48:38,082 --> 00:48:39,458
- Yeah.
- After you, man.
814
00:48:40,042 --> 00:48:43,253
- You look really wonderful.
- Thank you, thank you very much.
815
00:48:43,337 --> 00:48:45,755
Come on, Gary. [laughs]
816
00:48:45,839 --> 00:48:50,427
I wonder if we could take you
back to the war.
817
00:48:51,053 --> 00:48:54,473
On June the 8th, 1972,
818
00:48:54,556 --> 00:48:56,976
could you talk me through a little bit
819
00:48:57,059 --> 00:49:00,104
what you did that day, and why?
820
00:49:00,187 --> 00:49:02,397
[in Vietnamese] Well, there’s a channel,
821
00:49:02,481 --> 00:49:07,069
I don’t know which,
but they called me to go film.
822
00:49:07,152 --> 00:49:11,698
Because they said the Việt Cộng
have come to Trảng Bàng already.
823
00:49:11,781 --> 00:49:14,076
They’re in a temple in Trảng Bàng.
824
00:49:14,909 --> 00:49:21,458
They didn’t have a driver.
So I said, “I’m a driver too.”
825
00:49:21,541 --> 00:49:24,544
Then I rented a car and I drove there.
826
00:49:25,045 --> 00:49:32,052
When I got there,
I saw planes flying overhead,
827
00:49:32,886 --> 00:49:35,597
indicating that there was
going to be trouble.
828
00:49:36,181 --> 00:49:39,143
I called a few guys over and said,
829
00:49:39,226 --> 00:49:41,353
“You’re going to have work to do.”
830
00:49:41,436 --> 00:49:45,482
I thought civilians were hiding there.
831
00:49:45,565 --> 00:49:48,943
Then the planes dropped two bombs.
832
00:49:49,028 --> 00:49:51,905
Since that is the main road,
they have to run out that way;
833
00:49:51,988 --> 00:49:55,159
there's nowhere else to run.
834
00:49:55,242 --> 00:49:57,286
I prepared everything in advance.
835
00:49:57,369 --> 00:50:04,126
I saw the photo in that moment
and just took it.
836
00:50:04,209 --> 00:50:07,421
And I managed to capture that moment,
837
00:50:07,504 --> 00:50:11,091
and I knew I got the money shot.
838
00:50:11,675 --> 00:50:15,512
So, Nghệ, is this the kind of camera
839
00:50:15,595 --> 00:50:17,347
you were using that day?
840
00:50:17,431 --> 00:50:21,268
[in Vietnamese]
Yes, that's the camera. It was a Pentax.
841
00:50:21,351 --> 00:50:23,019
Yes, a 50 mm lens.
842
00:50:23,103 --> 00:50:24,729
Normal.
843
00:50:26,773 --> 00:50:30,069
When did you see that picture again?
844
00:50:31,403 --> 00:50:34,823
After I sold the photo,
about six or seven months later.
845
00:50:35,407 --> 00:50:38,327
Someone inside AP told me,
846
00:50:39,203 --> 00:50:42,164
"Your photo went to the U.S.
847
00:50:42,664 --> 00:50:45,375
It has won awards.
848
00:50:45,459 --> 00:50:50,172
Do you want to file a complaint?"
849
00:50:51,131 --> 00:50:56,720
I looked back and thought,
I don’t have any proof of it.
850
00:50:56,803 --> 00:51:01,641
Let me go home and check.
851
00:51:02,142 --> 00:51:08,565
And I saw that my wife had ripped up the
print the guy gave me and threw it away.
852
00:51:08,648 --> 00:51:11,693
Nghệ, did you think that
that was a mistake at the time,
853
00:51:11,776 --> 00:51:14,738
how the names had been changed
on the photograph?
854
00:51:14,821 --> 00:51:17,366
Did you think it was done
on purpose?
855
00:51:17,449 --> 00:51:19,618
[in Vietnamese] No, intentional.
856
00:51:19,701 --> 00:51:21,495
I knew it right away.
857
00:51:21,578 --> 00:51:23,205
It's my profession, I knew.
858
00:51:23,830 --> 00:51:29,836
On that day,
Út was the only one who was staff for AP.
859
00:51:29,919 --> 00:51:33,465
So the AP guy credited that photo to Út.
860
00:51:34,549 --> 00:51:36,468
Have you ever seen him since,
861
00:51:36,551 --> 00:51:38,178
and discussed this with him?
862
00:51:38,262 --> 00:51:42,557
I've met him, but I didn't greet him,
and he didn't greet me either.
863
00:51:43,933 --> 00:51:46,102
I felt upset.
864
00:51:46,186 --> 00:51:52,066
I worked hard for it,
but that guy got to have it all.
865
00:51:52,151 --> 00:51:55,654
He got the recognition. He got awards.
866
00:51:55,737 --> 00:51:58,782
He was celebrated in Vietnam.
867
00:51:58,865 --> 00:52:01,576
[dramatic music]
868
00:52:03,370 --> 00:52:07,666
I remember on that day
my dad came home.
869
00:52:08,333 --> 00:52:13,255
He sat down, and he pulled
from his pocket the film,
870
00:52:14,173 --> 00:52:16,175
and he threw it over here and say,
871
00:52:16,258 --> 00:52:18,552
“Oh, I sold this today,”
872
00:52:19,553 --> 00:52:24,140
and he just threw that picture
on the fridge.
873
00:52:26,643 --> 00:52:30,063
After my dad left,
I and my younger brother,
874
00:52:30,814 --> 00:52:34,734
we tiptoed and
we flipped it back, you know,
875
00:52:34,818 --> 00:52:36,445
and my brother, the younger one,
876
00:52:36,528 --> 00:52:39,030
he’s the one who did it first,
and he put it back.
877
00:52:39,948 --> 00:52:42,784
And he’s like silently,
"Don’t say anything."
878
00:52:44,369 --> 00:52:48,081
And I’m like, oh, I’ve got to
see it, right?
879
00:52:48,164 --> 00:52:50,375
So I did the same thing,
880
00:52:50,459 --> 00:52:51,960
and I put it back right away.
881
00:52:52,461 --> 00:52:54,128
Then we both looked at each other.
882
00:52:55,255 --> 00:52:57,882
We were so much in shock,
883
00:52:57,966 --> 00:53:00,510
like, she’s about my age.
884
00:53:01,761 --> 00:53:03,763
And why is she naked?
885
00:53:03,847 --> 00:53:05,765
And why is she screaming?
886
00:53:07,934 --> 00:53:11,355
Then when my mom was cleaning,
887
00:53:11,438 --> 00:53:14,148
she were like, mumbling to herself,
888
00:53:14,233 --> 00:53:18,778
like, "Why did your dad bring
this kind of picture into the house?"
889
00:53:19,529 --> 00:53:24,534
Tore it up, and threw it
in the trash bin immediately.
890
00:53:26,495 --> 00:53:32,376
Remember, my mom was
the traditional Vietnamese lady.
891
00:53:34,127 --> 00:53:37,506
After that, my dad was panicked.
892
00:53:38,382 --> 00:53:40,216
He was saying, "See?
893
00:53:40,300 --> 00:53:43,219
If you didn’t throw it away,
894
00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:46,973
look, I can have something to prove it."
895
00:53:47,056 --> 00:53:49,142
[dramatic music]
896
00:53:51,019 --> 00:53:56,775
On and on, on and on,
until they got divorced.
897
00:54:01,655 --> 00:54:03,490
Gary, would you like something to eat?
898
00:54:03,573 --> 00:54:06,535
Sure.
[laughs] That’s fantastic, thank you.
899
00:54:07,243 --> 00:54:08,787
When were you born, Anthony?
900
00:54:08,870 --> 00:54:10,830
- I was born in 1961.
- ’61?
901
00:54:10,914 --> 00:54:12,081
- Yeah.
- Right, right.
902
00:54:12,165 --> 00:54:14,918
So, your whole childhood
was during the war, right?
903
00:54:15,001 --> 00:54:16,127
Yeah, yeah, the whole time.
904
00:54:16,878 --> 00:54:19,714
So, did you spend much time
with Nghệ during the war?
905
00:54:19,798 --> 00:54:22,050
- He was working, right?
- Yeah, but he always came back
906
00:54:22,133 --> 00:54:23,593
so I can wash his car.
907
00:54:23,677 --> 00:54:25,512
I'm the one washing my car.
908
00:54:25,595 --> 00:54:26,680
[Gary] Washed your dad’s car.
909
00:54:27,263 --> 00:54:30,350
Anthony, we’ve been talking
about the photograph
910
00:54:30,434 --> 00:54:32,185
that your father took.
911
00:54:32,268 --> 00:54:35,564
How do you feel
when you see that photograph?
912
00:54:35,647 --> 00:54:37,732
Every time I see that picture,
913
00:54:37,816 --> 00:54:39,651
I say, "Oh, that,
my dad took the picture."
914
00:54:39,734 --> 00:54:40,860
That’s about it.
915
00:54:40,944 --> 00:54:43,697
But, him, it’s another story, though.
916
00:54:44,739 --> 00:54:47,534
He always have like
something here, man,
917
00:54:47,617 --> 00:54:49,619
why nobody noted me?
918
00:54:49,703 --> 00:54:51,245
It’s me, I’m the one taking the picture.
919
00:54:51,330 --> 00:54:53,164
- That's what…
- I’m sorry. [tearful]
920
00:54:54,123 --> 00:54:55,249
- Are you okay?
- [crying]
921
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:59,879
No. [sniffling] I’m sorry.
922
00:54:59,963 --> 00:55:01,590
[Michael] Well, you know,
it’s kind of like a losing battle.
923
00:55:01,673 --> 00:55:03,842
And I think he’s tried to put
that in the back of his mind,
924
00:55:03,925 --> 00:55:05,719
{\an8}to like, okay…
925
00:55:06,219 --> 00:55:10,599
{\an8}you know, because there is
no help, no recourse.
926
00:55:11,140 --> 00:55:14,728
I cannot understand, for the life of me,
927
00:55:14,811 --> 00:55:17,397
why they would give Nghệ
928
00:55:17,481 --> 00:55:21,317
a print of a photograph that he made,
929
00:55:21,401 --> 00:55:23,945
they would give him proof that
he made this photograph.
930
00:55:24,028 --> 00:55:26,030
- Yes.
- To give him the proof
931
00:55:26,114 --> 00:55:28,116
of something that you’ve taken from him,
932
00:55:28,199 --> 00:55:30,494
- it’s a very strange act.
- [Anthony] Yeah.
933
00:55:31,202 --> 00:55:35,374
For me, fundamentally,
you know, there is an injustice,
934
00:55:35,457 --> 00:55:37,626
just a general injustice here.
935
00:55:37,709 --> 00:55:38,918
I don’t think they would have done that
936
00:55:39,002 --> 00:55:40,211
to a Western photographer,
937
00:55:40,294 --> 00:55:41,421
an American, a Frenchman,
938
00:55:41,505 --> 00:55:43,006
- or an Englishman.
- [Jannie] Yes.
939
00:55:43,089 --> 00:55:46,801
So, I think your father has
really been taken advantage of,
940
00:55:47,511 --> 00:55:50,138
as many photographers,
941
00:55:50,221 --> 00:55:53,767
and many freelance journalists
from majority world countries,
942
00:55:53,850 --> 00:55:57,020
from the global south,
have been taken advantage of
943
00:55:57,103 --> 00:55:59,105
before and since.
944
00:55:59,188 --> 00:56:03,402
And I think that needs to be
addressed, actually.
945
00:56:03,485 --> 00:56:07,531
[Anthony] Yeah. You know what,
I keep thinking about it.
946
00:56:07,614 --> 00:56:08,948
A lot of people know that
he’s the one
947
00:56:09,032 --> 00:56:10,241
who took the picture.
948
00:56:11,075 --> 00:56:12,619
I know my uncle,
949
00:56:13,202 --> 00:56:14,496
my auntie,
950
00:56:14,579 --> 00:56:17,416
all his fam that work for CBS, NBC,
951
00:56:17,499 --> 00:56:19,250
everybody knows.
952
00:56:19,834 --> 00:56:23,672
Why nobody have gut to say
something about it?
953
00:56:24,423 --> 00:56:26,966
So, what would be a good
resolution for you now?
954
00:56:27,050 --> 00:56:29,302
I want AP to tell
955
00:56:30,219 --> 00:56:31,638
the true story,
956
00:56:31,721 --> 00:56:33,682
the story of my dad.
957
00:56:33,765 --> 00:56:35,767
[dramatic music]
958
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:03,795
[family sings "Happy Birthday"]
959
00:57:12,471 --> 00:57:16,265
[Jannie] Dad and I,
we talk about it many times.
960
00:57:17,559 --> 00:57:20,479
If only the person
961
00:57:20,562 --> 00:57:22,856
who did what he did
962
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:25,567
would make a confession,
963
00:57:26,192 --> 00:57:29,278
then everybody would know.
964
00:57:30,655 --> 00:57:33,074
But other than that, that…
965
00:57:34,075 --> 00:57:35,535
is not going to happen.
966
00:57:36,703 --> 00:57:38,246
Impossible.
967
00:57:41,290 --> 00:57:44,127
My dad is getting older.
968
00:57:45,504 --> 00:57:47,797
Like an angel on earth
969
00:57:47,881 --> 00:57:50,091
is knocking on my dad's door,
970
00:57:50,174 --> 00:57:52,426
and tell him this is the time
971
00:57:52,511 --> 00:57:55,096
I’m going to tell the truth for you.
972
00:57:57,807 --> 00:58:00,059
[gentle music]
973
00:58:02,020 --> 00:58:04,606
[Gary] You know, when we spoke to Nghệ,
974
00:58:05,356 --> 00:58:08,860
what we discovered is that nobody
975
00:58:08,943 --> 00:58:10,361
has reached out to him.
976
00:58:10,444 --> 00:58:12,405
He hasn’t spoken to anyone.
977
00:58:13,197 --> 00:58:15,074
His story hasn’t been influenced
978
00:58:15,158 --> 00:58:17,326
by anyone on the outside.
979
00:58:17,410 --> 00:58:19,621
He has lived a quiet, humble life,
980
00:58:20,163 --> 00:58:21,665
in perfect isolation
981
00:58:21,748 --> 00:58:24,000
in California with his family.
982
00:58:28,171 --> 00:58:30,757
This is a man who’s spent his entire life
983
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,009
in the photographic and film industry,
984
00:58:35,344 --> 00:58:37,013
{\an8}had trained as a cinematographer.
985
00:58:39,974 --> 00:58:45,522
So, on that day,
Nghệ is the most accomplished,
986
00:58:45,605 --> 00:58:47,691
highly trained war photographer
987
00:58:47,774 --> 00:58:49,233
standing on that road.
988
00:59:00,369 --> 00:59:01,830
[incoming text message tone]
989
00:59:03,790 --> 00:59:06,835
- [chatter]
- [indistinct announcements]
990
00:59:08,127 --> 00:59:09,337
[knock on door]
991
00:59:11,172 --> 00:59:14,718
- Hi, Gary! How are you?
- Lovely to see you.
992
00:59:14,801 --> 00:59:17,470
I would like you to meet my uncle.
993
00:59:17,554 --> 00:59:20,306
Very nice to meet you, Thân,
very nice to meet you.
994
00:59:20,389 --> 00:59:22,684
{\an8}Thank you very much,
very nice to meet you, Sir.
995
00:59:22,767 --> 00:59:25,895
{\an8}I used to be a soundman
for NBC News.
996
00:59:25,979 --> 00:59:28,189
{\an8}- That’s right.
- Yeah, for many years.
997
00:59:28,773 --> 00:59:30,191
[Gary] And when did you retire?
998
00:59:30,274 --> 00:59:34,821
I retired when I was 63, but now I am 92.
999
00:59:34,904 --> 00:59:37,991
- That’s pretty incredible.
- Yeah, thank you.
1000
00:59:38,074 --> 00:59:41,369
So when you were filming
this scene here,
1001
00:59:41,452 --> 00:59:44,080
this is the famous photograph here,
1002
00:59:44,163 --> 00:59:45,665
who was with you on the road?
1003
00:59:45,749 --> 00:59:47,375
[Thân] Yeah, in the middle of the road,
1004
00:59:47,458 --> 00:59:50,879
and the girl was coming to us.
1005
00:59:50,962 --> 00:59:53,422
[continues in Vietnamese] I was
in the middle holding the microphone.
1006
00:59:53,506 --> 00:59:57,135
And Nguyễn Thành Nghệ was on my
left side taking a picture of that girl.
1007
00:59:57,677 --> 01:00:00,597
Was Nick Út there at that time?
1008
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,390
- No.
- Oh, okay.
1009
01:00:02,473 --> 01:00:06,310
So, when you left Trảng Bàng,
you drove back to Saigon?
1010
01:00:06,394 --> 01:00:08,521
- Saigon.
- And what did you do next?
1011
01:00:09,731 --> 01:00:13,276
[continues in Vietnamese]
After filming, I told Mr. Nguyen Than Nghệ
1012
01:00:13,359 --> 01:00:17,947
that the AP office was next to mine.
1013
01:00:18,031 --> 01:00:21,409
The buyer of the film was Mr. Horst Faas.
1014
01:00:21,492 --> 01:00:26,330
I don't know how to spell his name in
English, but people called him Horst Faas.
1015
01:00:26,414 --> 01:00:31,294
After developing the film,
he cut off the one of the burned girl,
1016
01:00:31,377 --> 01:00:35,048
set it aside, and said,
"I'll buy this film."
1017
01:00:35,131 --> 01:00:41,262
He also gave me an enlargement
of the burned girl. 8 x 10 inch.
1018
01:00:41,345 --> 01:00:44,223
So, Thân, when you found out
1019
01:00:44,307 --> 01:00:48,311
that they had given
the photograph to Nick Út,
1020
01:00:48,394 --> 01:00:51,189
did you say anything to anybody
at that time?
1021
01:00:51,272 --> 01:00:54,400
I didn’t say anything, because…
1022
01:00:58,112 --> 01:00:59,488
nobody…
1023
01:01:01,532 --> 01:01:02,575
care.
1024
01:01:03,785 --> 01:01:06,495
And also I am an employee,
1025
01:01:07,121 --> 01:01:09,248
I need money
1026
01:01:10,291 --> 01:01:12,251
for my family living,
1027
01:01:13,502 --> 01:01:16,422
and I don’t want any trouble.
1028
01:01:17,048 --> 01:01:22,345
But I understand,
the bureau chief of AP,
1029
01:01:22,428 --> 01:01:25,514
and my bureau chief,
NBC News bureau chief,
1030
01:01:25,598 --> 01:01:27,600
they are close friends.
1031
01:01:27,684 --> 01:01:29,518
I cannot open my mouth.
1032
01:01:30,353 --> 01:01:31,938
If I get fired,
1033
01:01:32,521 --> 01:01:34,983
how can my family live?
1034
01:01:35,066 --> 01:01:37,151
I have to keep my mouth shut
1035
01:01:38,194 --> 01:01:40,529
for more than 50 years.
1036
01:01:40,613 --> 01:01:42,907
[continues in Vietnamese]
My conscience is not at peace.
1037
01:01:42,991 --> 01:01:47,203
Every time I think about it,
I can't eat or sleep well.
1038
01:01:47,286 --> 01:01:49,831
I'm reliving that moment
from 50 years ago.
1039
01:01:49,914 --> 01:01:51,165
On that day,
1040
01:01:51,750 --> 01:01:55,461
the truth that I suppressed inside,
1041
01:01:55,544 --> 01:01:57,463
deceiving myself,
1042
01:01:57,964 --> 01:01:59,758
left me feeling unrest.
1043
01:02:02,343 --> 01:02:03,677
[dramatic music]
1044
01:02:03,762 --> 01:02:05,471
[truck beeping]
1045
01:02:21,195 --> 01:02:23,197
[Gary] Requiem, an exhibition that honored
1046
01:02:23,281 --> 01:02:25,658
all the photographers from Vietnam
and overseas
1047
01:02:25,742 --> 01:02:27,911
who had died during the war.
1048
01:02:27,994 --> 01:02:30,079
It was an act of remembrance.
1049
01:02:32,623 --> 01:02:35,709
Horst was really the driving
force behind that project.
1050
01:02:37,211 --> 01:02:39,881
I knew Horst, he was complex,
1051
01:02:39,964 --> 01:02:43,301
a paradox, tough, competitive,
1052
01:02:44,052 --> 01:02:46,429
and yet capable of great compassion.
1053
01:02:48,306 --> 01:02:50,099
Út’s brother, Huynh Thanh My,
1054
01:02:50,183 --> 01:02:53,227
was one of those killed
while working for the AP.
1055
01:02:54,187 --> 01:02:56,647
Horst had been responsible
for hiring Nick,
1056
01:02:56,730 --> 01:02:59,567
to ensure that the family
had some income.
1057
01:03:06,157 --> 01:03:08,785
Do you know why Horst
would have
1058
01:03:08,868 --> 01:03:11,913
made the decision to add
1059
01:03:11,996 --> 01:03:13,915
Nick Út’s name to the caption?
1060
01:03:13,998 --> 01:03:15,917
Horst was torn up by My’s death,
1061
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,419
and I thought this was his way of
1062
01:03:18,502 --> 01:03:19,921
paying a tribute to him.
1063
01:03:20,004 --> 01:03:23,007
I can understand how Horst
would have felt bad
1064
01:03:23,091 --> 01:03:24,968
about that his whole life,
about what happened.
1065
01:03:25,051 --> 01:03:26,803
Right? He sent him on that assignment.
1066
01:03:30,598 --> 01:03:36,145
[Gary] Was it normal for stringers
to be given prints of the images
1067
01:03:36,229 --> 01:03:37,981
that AP bought from them?
1068
01:03:38,606 --> 01:03:40,233
[Carl] Yeah, that was fairly common, yes.
1069
01:03:40,316 --> 01:03:43,569
If we had an extra print or two,
and like in this case, we had several.
1070
01:03:43,652 --> 01:03:45,446
[Gary] There's something a little
troubling for me, though,
1071
01:03:45,529 --> 01:03:49,325
that if AP had taken
1072
01:03:49,408 --> 01:03:52,203
the photograph from the stringer,
1073
01:03:52,703 --> 01:03:54,413
put somebody else’s name on it,
1074
01:03:54,998 --> 01:03:58,501
why would they have given him a print,
ergo evidence,
1075
01:03:59,002 --> 01:04:00,003
of the same image?
1076
01:04:00,086 --> 01:04:02,296
[Carl] Well, that would have been Horst
who did all that,
1077
01:04:02,380 --> 01:04:04,883
but that was very unusual,
1078
01:04:04,966 --> 01:04:08,136
I must say, especially
after the byline switch on it.
1079
01:04:08,219 --> 01:04:09,470
Unusual, or maybe he was just
1080
01:04:09,553 --> 01:04:11,639
confident that Nghệ would
never say anything?
1081
01:04:11,722 --> 01:04:15,643
Exactly.
Faas was nothing if not confident.
1082
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:17,728
[dramatic music]
1083
01:04:21,024 --> 01:04:23,317
[Gary] We finally heard back
from Võ Sửu
1084
01:04:24,110 --> 01:04:25,945
He and his brother, Win,
were cameramen
1085
01:04:26,029 --> 01:04:27,738
for the U.S. networks,
1086
01:04:27,821 --> 01:04:30,199
filmed some of the iconic
footage from the war.
1087
01:04:31,159 --> 01:04:32,994
Vo Suu wasn’t in Trảng Bàng,
1088
01:04:33,077 --> 01:04:35,621
but he well understood the world
of the freelancer.
1089
01:04:36,956 --> 01:04:39,667
[in Vietnamese]
If you were a freelance military reporter
1090
01:04:39,750 --> 01:04:44,964
and you went out and took pictures,
1091
01:04:45,048 --> 01:04:48,384
you would then submit them to AP.
1092
01:04:48,467 --> 01:04:53,847
Especially those in the military,
they were poor, you understand.
1093
01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:58,727
They just gave them the photos
to earn a little money
1094
01:04:58,811 --> 01:05:01,940
fame was not important.
1095
01:05:03,024 --> 01:05:07,320
[Lê Vân, in Vietnamese] This means
they didn't go to AP to claim that picture
1096
01:05:07,820 --> 01:05:11,950
because they thought once they were paid,
that picture belonged to AP?
1097
01:05:12,450 --> 01:05:17,496
Yes, that's AP's policy.
1098
01:05:18,581 --> 01:05:24,878
So, there could be many pictures
taken by other people,
1099
01:05:24,963 --> 01:05:27,215
that happened.
1100
01:05:28,549 --> 01:05:31,928
I think when it comes to Nick Út's photo,
1101
01:05:32,011 --> 01:05:37,350
determining the real author
is very difficult.
1102
01:05:37,934 --> 01:05:40,769
Nick Út must know whether
he really took it or not.
1103
01:05:45,566 --> 01:05:48,486
[Gary] We obtained an internal
document from AP.
1104
01:05:49,070 --> 01:05:51,530
Horst explains how difficult it was
1105
01:05:51,614 --> 01:05:55,201
to get the New York office to place
Vietnamese names on their photo.
1106
01:05:55,952 --> 01:05:57,078
He says,
1107
01:05:57,161 --> 01:05:59,956
{\an8}“Vietnamese names were
ridiculed by the Americans.
1108
01:06:00,039 --> 01:06:01,832
{\an8}If they weren’t called slants,
1109
01:06:01,915 --> 01:06:05,461
{\an8}they were not taken seriously,
because they had funny names.
1110
01:06:06,087 --> 01:06:07,421
So, there was a reluctance here
1111
01:06:07,505 --> 01:06:10,383
to credit the Vietnamese
what was due to them.”
1112
01:06:10,466 --> 01:06:11,968
[dramatic music]
1113
01:06:20,934 --> 01:06:22,936
[text message tone]
1114
01:06:29,443 --> 01:06:30,861
[text message tone]
1115
01:06:35,408 --> 01:06:36,825
[text message tone]
1116
01:06:43,166 --> 01:06:44,458
[text message tone]
1117
01:06:55,553 --> 01:06:57,055
[dark music]
1118
01:07:03,852 --> 01:07:06,814
[phone ringing]
1119
01:07:06,897 --> 01:07:09,233
[Gary] Hi, thank you for taking the call.
1120
01:07:09,317 --> 01:07:11,527
{\an8}We are reporting allegations
1121
01:07:11,610 --> 01:07:16,449
{\an8}that Nick Út is not the author of
1122
01:07:16,532 --> 01:07:19,285
the famous Pulitzer Prize
winning photograph.
1123
01:07:19,368 --> 01:07:22,038
I’d sort of love to
collaborate with AP, right?
1124
01:07:22,121 --> 01:07:24,332
I’d like to involve you
in this investigation,
1125
01:07:24,415 --> 01:07:25,958
if we’re allowed into the archive,
1126
01:07:26,042 --> 01:07:28,001
and share information with you.
1127
01:07:28,086 --> 01:07:30,463
[suspenseful music]
1128
01:07:30,546 --> 01:07:32,005
Yeah…
1129
01:07:32,965 --> 01:07:35,301
But also I just want to press upon AP,
1130
01:07:35,384 --> 01:07:38,137
if I may, other former AP employees,
1131
01:07:38,221 --> 01:07:39,722
not the whistleblower, obviously,
1132
01:07:39,805 --> 01:07:42,141
have used AP’s name
1133
01:07:42,225 --> 01:07:44,727
to suppress the information,
1134
01:07:44,810 --> 01:07:47,313
and then they’ve said that AP management
1135
01:07:47,396 --> 01:07:49,273
are aware of the allegations,
and will discredit
1136
01:07:49,357 --> 01:07:50,274
the whistleblower.
1137
01:07:51,359 --> 01:07:52,318
Yeah…
1138
01:07:55,363 --> 01:07:58,241
Thanks, and take care.
Thank you.
1139
01:08:00,118 --> 01:08:02,661
She was just trying to find out
a little bit of what we know.
1140
01:08:02,745 --> 01:08:05,081
And she was pretty open. She
said, "Look, I have to go back
1141
01:08:05,914 --> 01:08:07,166
and report this.
1142
01:08:07,250 --> 01:08:08,626
Uh, and we'll be in touch."
1143
01:08:08,709 --> 01:08:10,461
But there was nothing defensive at all.
1144
01:08:10,544 --> 01:08:12,088
They were very, very open.
1145
01:08:12,171 --> 01:08:14,006
Yeah. Just wait and see.
1146
01:08:21,097 --> 01:08:23,849
Since Carl first told you
about this story,
1147
01:08:23,932 --> 01:08:26,144
he’s subsequently written a book
1148
01:08:26,227 --> 01:08:27,728
where he didn’t mention this at all.
1149
01:08:27,811 --> 01:08:31,149
[Fox] Yeah. My response was very clear…
1150
01:08:31,732 --> 01:08:34,527
Carl, you’ve got to tell the story.
1151
01:08:34,610 --> 01:08:37,113
You’ve got to tell the truth.
1152
01:08:37,196 --> 01:08:39,157
Was he honest with you
and did he say, in the end,
1153
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:40,699
look, I don’t have
the strength, or whatever?
1154
01:08:40,783 --> 01:08:42,326
What did he say to you?
1155
01:08:42,410 --> 01:08:44,620
First of all, he said,
"I won’t be believed.
1156
01:08:44,703 --> 01:08:47,373
Horst Faas is dead."
1157
01:08:47,456 --> 01:08:49,375
He said, "It’s too easy,
they’ll always say,
1158
01:08:49,458 --> 01:08:52,545
why did you wait?
You’re an opportunist."
1159
01:08:52,628 --> 01:08:54,463
And he lined up all the reasons,
1160
01:08:54,547 --> 01:08:57,425
and I don’t know that any one
of the reasons was enough.
1161
01:08:57,508 --> 01:08:58,717
It wasn’t enough for me.
1162
01:08:58,801 --> 01:09:01,094
I just kept pushing him to do it.
1163
01:09:01,179 --> 01:09:04,473
And he would send me drafts
of the true story,
1164
01:09:04,557 --> 01:09:06,809
and say, "I want you to see this,"
1165
01:09:06,892 --> 01:09:09,770
and then I’d say,
"This is the story you need to tell,"
1166
01:09:09,853 --> 01:09:12,356
and then I got the final book,
1167
01:09:12,898 --> 01:09:14,358
and it wasn’t in there.
1168
01:09:14,442 --> 01:09:16,610
I said, "You’re not being honest again.
1169
01:09:16,694 --> 01:09:18,362
You’re still not telling the truth."
1170
01:09:18,446 --> 01:09:21,990
And so he sends me this email
on January 20th, 2018.
1171
01:09:22,074 --> 01:09:25,494
“Dear Tom, shit, man.
1172
01:09:26,204 --> 01:09:28,372
It would have been better
if you’d just agreed
1173
01:09:28,456 --> 01:09:31,417
with how I revised
the damn Nick Út stuff.
1174
01:09:31,500 --> 01:09:35,796
I am haunted by
this entire fucking story.
1175
01:09:35,879 --> 01:09:37,631
I fucking hate it.
1176
01:09:37,715 --> 01:09:40,551
How many times, how many,
1177
01:09:40,634 --> 01:09:42,636
am I going to keep this going
1178
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:46,224
to a climactic and very public finale,
1179
01:09:46,307 --> 01:09:49,268
as a one-day wonder in the New York Times,
1180
01:09:49,352 --> 01:09:53,814
pissing off almost every one
of my erstwhile colleagues,
1181
01:09:53,897 --> 01:09:56,066
most of whom, let’s face it, I loathed,
1182
01:09:56,149 --> 01:09:58,486
and with whom I never truly fit in,
1183
01:09:58,569 --> 01:10:01,905
me, just a local hire off-the-street guy,
1184
01:10:01,989 --> 01:10:04,283
just a bloody photo editor,
1185
01:10:04,367 --> 01:10:09,288
like I’m just asking
for a good hiding here, is that it?”
1186
01:10:09,372 --> 01:10:11,915
This is a tormented Carl,
1187
01:10:11,999 --> 01:10:13,584
with this demon inside
1188
01:10:13,667 --> 01:10:16,254
that he’s trying to release and can’t,
1189
01:10:16,337 --> 01:10:19,257
and he’s pissed at me
for not letting up,
1190
01:10:19,882 --> 01:10:23,594
and I tried, but he’s a friend.
1191
01:10:23,677 --> 01:10:26,680
Carl has nothing to gain
from telling this story.
1192
01:10:26,764 --> 01:10:29,225
He has everything to lose, in fact.
1193
01:10:29,308 --> 01:10:30,601
I think that’s…
1194
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:35,981
it makes him
a very genuine source, actually.
1195
01:10:39,443 --> 01:10:42,946
[Fox] I can’t imagine someone
making up a story
1196
01:10:43,030 --> 01:10:45,324
that would…
1197
01:10:45,408 --> 01:10:49,119
haunt him for the rest of his life.
1198
01:10:51,789 --> 01:10:54,583
He’s trying to expel this
1199
01:10:54,667 --> 01:10:57,420
by wrestling with the truth.
1200
01:11:00,881 --> 01:11:03,967
It’s a strong, compelling darkness.
1201
01:11:12,935 --> 01:11:14,437
[Carl] We get this horrible news
1202
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:16,272
that Nghệ's come down with a stroke.
1203
01:11:16,355 --> 01:11:18,231
We didn't know what to do.
1204
01:11:20,568 --> 01:11:24,697
I just wanted to meet him,
and say I am sorry.
1205
01:11:25,864 --> 01:11:27,991
That’s something I personally had to do.
1206
01:11:34,164 --> 01:11:35,416
Hello, Nghệ.
1207
01:11:36,417 --> 01:11:37,960
How are you?
1208
01:11:39,252 --> 01:11:44,383
I feel bad that we stole
your name, right?
1209
01:11:44,467 --> 01:11:47,010
So I want to say sorry.
1210
01:11:47,970 --> 01:11:51,765
You are my proof, and I am your proof.
1211
01:11:53,141 --> 01:11:54,518
[dramatic music]
1212
01:11:56,687 --> 01:11:59,272
[Fox] One brief moment
1213
01:11:59,357 --> 01:12:01,024
captured all of us
1214
01:12:01,108 --> 01:12:03,276
into this kind of victimhood.
1215
01:12:03,361 --> 01:12:07,698
Thank you for standing by me
all this time.
1216
01:12:13,286 --> 01:12:16,707
[Fox] This is a sad, sad story.
1217
01:12:18,208 --> 01:12:20,378
The smallest of acts
1218
01:12:20,461 --> 01:12:23,714
can have a huge consequence.
1219
01:12:28,636 --> 01:12:33,056
[Terri] Can we just review
what Nick’s narrative is?
1220
01:12:34,224 --> 01:12:36,519
Here’s what he says.
He says that morning,
1221
01:12:36,602 --> 01:12:41,189
he went in an AP van with a driver.
1222
01:12:41,899 --> 01:12:45,944
[in Vietnamese] I and another man
named David Burnett from Time Magazine.
1223
01:12:46,612 --> 01:12:49,573
I and a Vietnamese man
named Hoảng Vãn Doanh,
1224
01:12:49,657 --> 01:12:51,492
a freelance reporter for AP and UPI,
1225
01:12:51,992 --> 01:12:57,748
and there was another man, Nghệ, who
was a driver for NBC, he was not media.
1226
01:12:58,331 --> 01:13:00,333
He was driving a car with the journalists.
1227
01:13:00,418 --> 01:13:02,294
He drove a friend of mine, Lê Phúc Đinh,
1228
01:13:02,378 --> 01:13:05,589
a cameraman who captured
the entire scene of the bombing.
1229
01:13:05,673 --> 01:13:07,383
[Terri] Nobody disputes that
he was there,
1230
01:13:07,466 --> 01:13:10,803
nobody disputes that he took
pictures that day.
1231
01:13:11,512 --> 01:13:13,514
[Fiona] Kim Phúc has always said
that she was in shock,
1232
01:13:13,597 --> 01:13:15,348
and can’t really remember the incident.
1233
01:13:15,433 --> 01:13:17,810
[Kim] The photographer
who took my picture,
1234
01:13:17,893 --> 01:13:21,313
{\an8}unfortunately,
I don’t remember his face.
1235
01:13:22,064 --> 01:13:24,775
The first person to run out
was an old lady,
1236
01:13:24,858 --> 01:13:28,320
at least 70 years old.
She ran out first.
1237
01:13:28,821 --> 01:13:30,573
Then the children ran out.
1238
01:13:31,239 --> 01:13:34,618
Nobody disputes that
he photographed the grandmother…
1239
01:13:34,702 --> 01:13:36,745
[Terri] …and the baby dying.
1240
01:13:36,829 --> 01:13:39,122
Does he state, unequivocally,
1241
01:13:39,206 --> 01:13:41,459
that he takes
the famous photograph
1242
01:13:41,542 --> 01:13:43,877
after he photographed the grandmother?
1243
01:13:43,961 --> 01:13:46,464
- [Terri] Yes.
- Right, so that’s his sequence?
1244
01:13:46,547 --> 01:13:48,298
- [Terri] That’s his sequence.
- [Gary] Okay.
1245
01:13:48,381 --> 01:13:53,429
[in Vietnamese] I had just taken a photo.
I looked through the viewfinder and
1246
01:13:53,512 --> 01:13:58,100
suddenly saw girl, arms outstretched,
running and ask myself,
1247
01:13:58,601 --> 01:14:00,018
"Why isn't she wearing clothes?"
1248
01:14:00,686 --> 01:14:03,396
I had to run close to her
and take the photo
1249
01:14:05,483 --> 01:14:10,278
[Fiona] And according to
Nick’s narrative,
1250
01:14:10,362 --> 01:14:12,280
that he shoots on his Leica
1251
01:14:12,364 --> 01:14:14,700
he uses a 35mm lens, that’s what he had.
1252
01:14:15,784 --> 01:14:18,996
[Terri] Then he puts water on her.
1253
01:14:19,079 --> 01:14:21,164
- Everyone leaves.
- Yeah.
1254
01:14:21,248 --> 01:14:26,128
And he takes Kim, the girl,
and her brother,
1255
01:14:26,211 --> 01:14:27,838
to the Cu Chi Hospital,
1256
01:14:27,921 --> 01:14:29,422
which is the closest hospital…
1257
01:14:29,507 --> 01:14:33,469
In the AP van, he’s said multiple times.
1258
01:14:33,552 --> 01:14:37,264
[Nick, on recording, in Vietnamese]
It was then that Kim Phúc's uncle ran out
1259
01:14:37,347 --> 01:14:42,269
and asked me if I could take the children
to the hospital.
1260
01:14:42,895 --> 01:14:44,897
I had a van. I opened the door.
1261
01:14:44,980 --> 01:14:48,526
I carried Kim Phúc and put her
on the floor of the car
1262
01:14:48,609 --> 01:14:50,694
because her back was burned badly,
so she couldn't lean back.
1263
01:14:50,778 --> 01:14:52,445
Then three kids jumped in.
1264
01:14:55,741 --> 01:14:58,952
[Terri, on recording]
However in a 1984 documentary,
1265
01:14:59,036 --> 01:15:01,454
Kim Phúc's mother tells a different story.
1266
01:15:01,539 --> 01:15:07,169
[in Vietnamese] She was burned badly
we didn't know how to save her.
1267
01:15:09,337 --> 01:15:12,925
There was an uncle who carried her
on his back and ran.
1268
01:15:13,008 --> 01:15:15,177
He took her down to Bắc Hà, Củ Chi.
1269
01:15:15,260 --> 01:15:20,683
From there, a plane took her
to the Children’s Hospital.
1270
01:15:20,766 --> 01:15:22,475
- [Gary] Yeah.
- [Terri] Right.
1271
01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:24,019
Then, Nick claims…
1272
01:15:24,102 --> 01:15:26,855
- he goes to AP.
- [Gary] Mm-hmm.
1273
01:15:26,939 --> 01:15:28,356
[Terri] …that he goes into the darkroom
1274
01:15:28,440 --> 01:15:30,067
to develop the film with Jackson.
1275
01:15:30,150 --> 01:15:33,612
Yet Carl says that Nick wasn’t
there when he arrived,
1276
01:15:33,696 --> 01:15:36,031
and then Nick came in later
in civilian clothes.
1277
01:15:36,532 --> 01:15:40,202
Horst says, um,
“Good job, Nick.”
1278
01:15:40,285 --> 01:15:42,495
[Gary] Yeah, “You did a good job.”
1279
01:15:42,580 --> 01:15:44,790
That’s what David Burnett says.
1280
01:15:44,873 --> 01:15:48,794
[suspenseful music]
1281
01:15:53,757 --> 01:15:56,134
- [Terri] Nice to meet you.
- [man] Yeah, I know.
1282
01:15:56,218 --> 01:15:59,096
[Gary] Hey, guys. Nice to meet you.
1283
01:15:59,179 --> 01:16:01,557
- Hello, Gary.
- [Gary] Nice to see you.
1284
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:06,562
{\an8}So, to take you through the process
and the methodology we’ve used
1285
01:16:06,645 --> 01:16:10,232
{\an8}to analyze the footage that
you’ve shared with us,
1286
01:16:10,315 --> 01:16:12,150
from that sort of weaving together
1287
01:16:12,234 --> 01:16:15,362
of these different threads and clues,
1288
01:16:15,445 --> 01:16:19,825
I think a coherent overall
picture appears.
1289
01:16:23,871 --> 01:16:25,163
[Francesco] We started by examining
1290
01:16:25,247 --> 01:16:27,499
the photographs and film clips
you provided us,
1291
01:16:27,583 --> 01:16:30,460
all captured by reporters in
Trảng Bàng on that day.
1292
01:16:33,213 --> 01:16:36,424
We used a November 1972
satellite image
1293
01:16:36,508 --> 01:16:38,594
to understand the area’s layout,
1294
01:16:38,677 --> 01:16:40,888
and began matching landmarks
between the photos
1295
01:16:40,971 --> 01:16:43,098
and the satellite image, to pinpoint
1296
01:16:43,181 --> 01:16:45,225
where each photograph was taken.
1297
01:16:51,940 --> 01:16:53,984
The sequence we focus on begins
1298
01:16:54,067 --> 01:16:56,945
with the aerial dropping
and explosion of napalm bombs,
1299
01:16:57,029 --> 01:16:59,698
around the Cao Dai temple
in Trảng Bàng.
1300
01:17:00,866 --> 01:17:02,785
This moment was captured
in film footage
1301
01:17:02,868 --> 01:17:04,787
by a British ITN News crew.
1302
01:17:06,579 --> 01:17:08,415
[clicks, rewinds]
1303
01:17:16,715 --> 01:17:19,051
In a photograph taken shortly after,
1304
01:17:19,134 --> 01:17:21,303
a group of reporters can be seen
1305
01:17:21,386 --> 01:17:23,513
near a checkpoint and bridge,
1306
01:17:23,596 --> 01:17:26,725
matching this location
on the satellite image.
1307
01:17:27,893 --> 01:17:29,269
They are facing the temple,
1308
01:17:29,352 --> 01:17:31,021
which is about 500 meters,
1309
01:17:31,104 --> 01:17:32,898
or a third of a mile away.
1310
01:17:35,776 --> 01:17:38,445
This is the first picture
where we see Kim Phúc
1311
01:17:38,528 --> 01:17:40,405
among a group of other children.
1312
01:17:40,488 --> 01:17:42,115
They are emerging from a field
1313
01:17:42,199 --> 01:17:45,285
onto the main road,
accompanied by soldiers.
1314
01:17:46,369 --> 01:17:48,664
Behind them, we distinguish a dirt path
1315
01:17:48,747 --> 01:17:50,833
perpendicular to the main road,
1316
01:17:50,916 --> 01:17:52,793
which appears to match
this location
1317
01:17:52,876 --> 01:17:54,086
on the satellite image.
1318
01:18:00,968 --> 01:18:04,805
The next available photograph is
the one known as "Napalm Girl."
1319
01:18:07,182 --> 01:18:08,809
Kim Phúc and the other children
1320
01:18:08,892 --> 01:18:10,643
are walking up the main road,
1321
01:18:10,728 --> 01:18:12,145
moving away from the temple
1322
01:18:12,229 --> 01:18:14,064
and the site of the explosion.
1323
01:18:15,357 --> 01:18:17,901
Drawing on a range of visual
cross-references,
1324
01:18:17,985 --> 01:18:19,903
we determined
an approximate position
1325
01:18:19,987 --> 01:18:21,739
for the photographer on the road,
1326
01:18:21,822 --> 01:18:23,866
as represented in our 3D model.
1327
01:18:33,416 --> 01:18:35,418
The original negative of the photograph
1328
01:18:35,502 --> 01:18:37,545
confirms that the subsequent image.
1329
01:18:37,629 --> 01:18:39,464
was taken by the same photographer
1330
01:18:39,547 --> 01:18:41,717
who captured the Napalm Girl picture.
1331
01:18:45,553 --> 01:18:49,391
The next available shot of the children
comes from an ITN news clip.
1332
01:18:49,474 --> 01:18:50,976
As they continue up the road,
1333
01:18:51,059 --> 01:18:53,729
the footage captures them
running past the news crew.
1334
01:18:55,272 --> 01:18:57,816
The cameraman pans to follow Kim Phúc.
1335
01:19:02,905 --> 01:19:04,740
In this frame from the ITN footage,
1336
01:19:04,823 --> 01:19:07,700
we now see Kim Phúc and
another child from behind.
1337
01:19:08,869 --> 01:19:10,412
Two figures face them.
1338
01:19:11,704 --> 01:19:15,500
The one on the right is
capturing the reverse shot
1339
01:19:15,583 --> 01:19:18,754
showing the group of children
in front of a line of reporters.
1340
01:19:21,882 --> 01:19:25,260
Among them, we can distinguish,
three film cameramen,
1341
01:19:25,343 --> 01:19:27,637
two soundmen, and on the right,
1342
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:30,015
a single photographer
with a stills camera,
1343
01:19:30,098 --> 01:19:32,642
which we have identified
as the stringer.
1344
01:19:35,228 --> 01:19:38,565
These reporters stand a short distance
up the road
1345
01:19:38,648 --> 01:19:40,943
from the spot where, just seconds earlier,
1346
01:19:41,026 --> 01:19:43,278
the Napalm Girl photograph
was captured.
1347
01:19:50,327 --> 01:19:53,121
In the shot from the ITN footage,
at that same moment,
1348
01:19:53,205 --> 01:19:55,707
we can make out another
figure in the background
1349
01:19:55,791 --> 01:19:57,584
approaching from farther back,
1350
01:19:57,667 --> 01:19:59,544
who seems to be carrying gear.
1351
01:20:02,005 --> 01:20:02,881
[clicks]
1352
01:20:02,965 --> 01:20:07,260
After a cut, the ITN footage
shows a close-up of Kim Phúc
1353
01:20:07,344 --> 01:20:09,721
receiving water from the journalists.
1354
01:20:11,056 --> 01:20:14,059
The distant figure
carrying gear is now closer.
1355
01:20:14,810 --> 01:20:18,063
He’s wearing a helmet, and
appears to be holding a camera.
1356
01:20:22,317 --> 01:20:24,444
This exact moment has also been captured
1357
01:20:24,527 --> 01:20:27,405
by the photographer we’ve seen
approaching from afar.
1358
01:20:34,121 --> 01:20:37,749
This photograph is attributed
to Nick Út by AP.
1359
01:20:39,126 --> 01:20:42,254
Another picture captures
the scene shortly after,
1360
01:20:42,337 --> 01:20:45,966
while Kim Phúc is still
in front of the ITN cameraman.
1361
01:20:48,093 --> 01:20:49,552
A figure looking towards them
1362
01:20:49,636 --> 01:20:52,097
is visible on
the left side of the frame.
1363
01:20:52,180 --> 01:20:55,725
We notice he's wearing a helmet
with a fabric tag
1364
01:20:55,808 --> 01:20:58,979
short sleeves, and a jacket
hanging on his right side.
1365
01:21:00,981 --> 01:21:03,525
These details are consistent
with the photographer
1366
01:21:03,608 --> 01:21:05,152
we saw approaching from a distance
1367
01:21:05,235 --> 01:21:06,569
in the ITN footage.
1368
01:21:08,696 --> 01:21:10,240
In the next available image,
1369
01:21:10,323 --> 01:21:13,576
the same figure is visible
as he’s taking a photograph,
1370
01:21:14,286 --> 01:21:16,538
most likely this photograph of Kim Phúc,
1371
01:21:16,621 --> 01:21:19,582
also attributed to Nick Út by AP.
1372
01:21:21,626 --> 01:21:24,337
Finally, a reverse shot of
the same scene is taken,
1373
01:21:24,421 --> 01:21:26,839
where we can positively identify Nick Út
1374
01:21:26,924 --> 01:21:30,052
as the photographer wearing
a helmet and carrying gear,
1375
01:21:30,135 --> 01:21:33,513
first seen in the distance
in the ITN footage.
1376
01:21:35,473 --> 01:21:37,935
By revisiting this footage,
we can now establish
1377
01:21:38,018 --> 01:21:39,477
that just seconds after
1378
01:21:39,561 --> 01:21:41,563
the Napalm Girl photograph was taken,
1379
01:21:41,646 --> 01:21:44,399
Nick Út appears at a considerable distance
1380
01:21:44,482 --> 01:21:46,068
from the running children,
1381
01:21:46,151 --> 01:21:49,196
walking towards them
from the opposite direction.
1382
01:21:55,743 --> 01:21:58,705
Therefore we can conclude
that it is highly unlikely
1383
01:21:58,788 --> 01:22:01,583
that Nick Út took
the Napalm Girl photograph.
1384
01:22:08,840 --> 01:22:10,883
It doesn't really make sense
1385
01:22:10,968 --> 01:22:13,428
that a few seconds
after the picture was taken
1386
01:22:13,511 --> 01:22:16,389
that he would be so far away
and coming back
1387
01:22:16,473 --> 01:22:19,142
if he was the person that had
taken the picture at that time.
1388
01:22:19,226 --> 01:22:22,312
I think what we have, though,
we have two people…
1389
01:22:22,395 --> 01:22:24,272
who claim to have taken the photograph.
1390
01:22:24,356 --> 01:22:26,274
- [Francesco] Mm-hmm.
- Only two.
1391
01:22:26,358 --> 01:22:30,153
One is Nick Út,
and one is Nghệ, the stringer.
1392
01:22:31,196 --> 01:22:32,905
And what you're telling me here,
1393
01:22:32,990 --> 01:22:36,201
is that Nick Út wasn't in the right place
1394
01:22:36,284 --> 01:22:37,827
to have taken the photograph.
1395
01:22:37,910 --> 01:22:39,329
Which would mean the only person
1396
01:22:39,412 --> 01:22:41,664
who was in the right place
to take the photograph
1397
01:22:41,748 --> 01:22:43,875
who claims to have taken the photograph,
1398
01:22:43,959 --> 01:22:45,168
would be the stringer.
1399
01:22:45,252 --> 01:22:46,794
- [Francesco] That's correct.
- Mm-hmm.
1400
01:22:47,379 --> 01:22:49,464
In our model, in our virtual cameras,
1401
01:22:49,547 --> 01:22:51,383
Napalm Girl picture
1402
01:22:51,466 --> 01:22:54,927
is most likely taken
by a camera of 50 mm.
1403
01:22:55,012 --> 01:22:56,471
At least the virtual camera…
1404
01:22:56,554 --> 01:22:59,599
- our model… says it.
- [Gary] Yep.
1405
01:22:59,682 --> 01:23:01,684
And the stringer, Nghệ,
1406
01:23:01,768 --> 01:23:04,146
is using a 50 mill lens on a Pentax.
1407
01:23:06,523 --> 01:23:07,857
That's remarkable.
1408
01:23:07,940 --> 01:23:09,609
- [Fiona]Thank you.
- [Gary] Thank you.
1409
01:23:10,527 --> 01:23:11,819
[Francesco, on recording]
Regarding the photograph
1410
01:23:11,903 --> 01:23:13,446
of the grandmother holding the baby,
1411
01:23:13,530 --> 01:23:16,116
if we look at the smoke in the background,
1412
01:23:16,199 --> 01:23:18,576
we notice that
it is significantly less dense
1413
01:23:18,660 --> 01:23:20,828
than in the series
of photographs of Kim Phúc
1414
01:23:20,912 --> 01:23:22,622
walking down the road.
1415
01:23:23,331 --> 01:23:25,000
This suggests that the photograph
1416
01:23:25,083 --> 01:23:26,709
of the grandmother was likely taken
1417
01:23:26,793 --> 01:23:29,587
minutes after the Napalm Girl photo.
1418
01:23:31,798 --> 01:23:34,551
We found another clue in the ITN footage.
1419
01:23:34,634 --> 01:23:36,803
When the camera follows
the grandmother,
1420
01:23:37,970 --> 01:23:40,223
we can see in the crowd,
at the checkpoint,
1421
01:23:40,307 --> 01:23:42,475
the figure of a seemingly naked girl
1422
01:23:42,559 --> 01:23:44,894
in all likelihood, Kim Phúc herself,
1423
01:23:45,562 --> 01:23:47,439
as well as the other children
on the right,
1424
01:23:48,273 --> 01:23:50,775
indicating their arrival
ahead of the grandmother.
1425
01:23:54,071 --> 01:23:56,948
{\an8}…just seconds after the Napalm Girl
photograph was taken,
1426
01:23:57,032 --> 01:23:59,034
{\an8}Nick Út appears
at a considerable distance
1427
01:24:00,660 --> 01:24:03,038
{\an8}That’s Nick Út.
1428
01:24:03,538 --> 01:24:05,498
So you’re saying he’s too far back?
1429
01:24:05,582 --> 01:24:09,044
Just watch,
the direction he’s coming from.
1430
01:24:09,127 --> 01:24:11,213
[children crying]
1431
01:24:11,296 --> 01:24:13,548
[Santiago] So, he’s way out of position.
1432
01:24:14,382 --> 01:24:16,551
We know that photography
is all about positioning.
1433
01:24:16,634 --> 01:24:18,845
You can’t get the picture
if you’re not there,
1434
01:24:18,928 --> 01:24:21,473
and he’s not there, and we know that
1435
01:24:21,556 --> 01:24:24,517
because we see him
too far out of position
1436
01:24:24,601 --> 01:24:25,852
to have been there.
1437
01:24:26,436 --> 01:24:28,646
Nick Út, we know where his pictures are.
1438
01:24:28,730 --> 01:24:31,108
The UPI guy,
we know where his pictures are,
1439
01:24:31,608 --> 01:24:34,069
but what about this guy here? [chuckles]
1440
01:24:34,152 --> 01:24:36,196
Nobody has his pictures.
1441
01:24:36,279 --> 01:24:37,739
[Santiago] That’s amazing.
1442
01:24:39,199 --> 01:24:40,408
[Gary] You know,
there will be people, I’m sure,
1443
01:24:40,492 --> 01:24:43,245
who still maintain that Nick
must have taken that photograph,
1444
01:24:43,328 --> 01:24:45,622
but to believe that,
1445
01:24:46,498 --> 01:24:50,001
you have to not
believe anything Carl said,
1446
01:24:50,085 --> 01:24:52,254
not believe the stringer,
1447
01:24:52,337 --> 01:24:54,922
not believe his children,
1448
01:24:55,715 --> 01:24:58,718
wonder why Horst, or someone at AP,
1449
01:24:58,801 --> 01:25:01,721
gave him a print to put on his fridge.
1450
01:25:01,804 --> 01:25:04,891
You have to disbelieve
the evidence of the photograph,
1451
01:25:04,974 --> 01:25:05,892
the evidence of the video.
1452
01:25:05,975 --> 01:25:07,935
You have to disbelieve
everything and everybody,
1453
01:25:08,019 --> 01:25:11,398
and only believe Nick or Arnett,
1454
01:25:11,481 --> 01:25:13,566
who believes that Nick took the picture,
1455
01:25:13,650 --> 01:25:16,653
because Horst told him
Nick took the picture.
1456
01:25:16,736 --> 01:25:21,116
All of the evidence actually
comes from Horst’s mouth.
1457
01:25:21,199 --> 01:25:24,286
As a former DOP of AP, um,
1458
01:25:24,369 --> 01:25:27,830
you know, you’re as well-placed
as anybody to understand
1459
01:25:27,914 --> 01:25:29,416
what we’re looking at here.
1460
01:25:30,375 --> 01:25:31,876
So if we take this to AP,
1461
01:25:31,959 --> 01:25:33,211
what does that mean for the image?
1462
01:25:33,295 --> 01:25:34,754
What does it mean to AP?
1463
01:25:34,837 --> 01:25:37,006
Nobody’s calling the veracity
of the image
1464
01:25:37,089 --> 01:25:38,550
into question, right?
1465
01:25:38,633 --> 01:25:41,844
So, the veracity and the power
of the image still stands.
1466
01:25:41,928 --> 01:25:45,973
AP’s ownership and distribution
of the image still stand.
1467
01:25:46,724 --> 01:25:48,268
There’s a lot of spatter.
1468
01:25:49,144 --> 01:25:51,396
A lot of people are going to
get spattered by this.
1469
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:54,899
The people who have, you know,
defended this to the death.
1470
01:25:55,525 --> 01:25:56,443
Yeah.
1471
01:25:56,526 --> 01:25:58,320
In some ways it’s the Vietnamese
1472
01:25:58,403 --> 01:26:00,738
reclaiming the narrative of something
1473
01:26:00,822 --> 01:26:02,407
that happened in their country,
1474
01:26:02,490 --> 01:26:04,159
as opposed to having,
1475
01:26:05,577 --> 01:26:07,495
with regards to the crediting
of the picture,
1476
01:26:07,579 --> 01:26:09,164
a narrative foisted on them.
1477
01:26:09,747 --> 01:26:11,874
It’s not easy to unpack a narrative
1478
01:26:11,958 --> 01:26:14,586
that’s sort of stuck in
people’s collective conscience
1479
01:26:14,669 --> 01:26:16,296
for so long.
1480
01:26:16,379 --> 01:26:18,756
How is Nick Út going to
stick up his hand and say,
1481
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:21,133
I think there was a mistake,
I didn’t make the picture?
1482
01:26:21,718 --> 01:26:24,804
You know, as time goes on,
and that narrative sinks in,
1483
01:26:24,887 --> 01:26:26,055
it becomes even harder.
1484
01:26:26,138 --> 01:26:27,974
Like you either do that
at the moment, or…
1485
01:26:28,057 --> 01:26:29,976
- You never do.
- Or you never do it, right?
1486
01:26:30,768 --> 01:26:32,562
[Santiago] For Nghệ,
1487
01:26:33,104 --> 01:26:34,314
it’s justice,
1488
01:26:35,357 --> 01:26:36,483
it’s justice.
1489
01:26:36,566 --> 01:26:38,025
That’s pretty powerful.
1490
01:26:40,278 --> 01:26:43,323
I think the AP is the big
elephant in the room here,
1491
01:26:43,406 --> 01:26:46,451
and I find it very difficult
to believe that,
1492
01:26:46,534 --> 01:26:48,536
when presented with
this evidence,
1493
01:26:48,620 --> 01:26:50,788
that they won’t engage.
1494
01:26:53,666 --> 01:26:54,959
[dramatic music]
1495
01:27:09,349 --> 01:27:13,978
[Gary] It’s off the record, so, obviously
I can’t disclose, you know, very much,
1496
01:27:14,061 --> 01:27:17,440
but, um, I think we’ve done
the right thing
1497
01:27:17,524 --> 01:27:19,567
by talking to AP.
1498
01:27:20,151 --> 01:27:23,530
Uh, whether AP do the right
thing remains to be seen.
1499
01:27:23,613 --> 01:27:26,699
[dramatic music]
1500
01:27:39,462 --> 01:27:42,465
{\an8}For 52 years Nick Út
had always been believed to be
1501
01:27:42,549 --> 01:27:45,385
the photographer
who captured the "Napalm Girl" photo.
1502
01:27:45,468 --> 01:27:48,305
However, a recent revelation
has challenged
1503
01:27:48,388 --> 01:27:51,223
the greatest achievement
of his photography career.
1504
01:27:51,308 --> 01:27:54,936
This iconic photo is at the center
of a growing controversy.
1505
01:27:55,019 --> 01:27:56,604
[shutter clicking]
1506
01:27:56,688 --> 01:27:58,773
The “Napalm Girl” with questions
the world will never forget.
1507
01:27:58,856 --> 01:28:00,149
[man, in French]
But is this shot really one of his?
1508
01:28:00,232 --> 01:28:01,943
The story of a probable usurpation
1509
01:28:02,026 --> 01:28:03,736
which will have lasted 50 years.
1510
01:28:04,654 --> 01:28:06,323
[Gary] In the AP report, they state…
1511
01:28:06,406 --> 01:28:11,703
"a challenged credit would be removed
only if definitive evidence showed
1512
01:28:11,786 --> 01:28:15,498
that the person who claimed to have
taken the photo did not."
1513
01:28:17,625 --> 01:28:19,377
They concluded the true authorship…
1514
01:28:20,127 --> 01:28:22,046
"cannot be proven definitively
1515
01:28:22,129 --> 01:28:23,923
due to the passage of time,
1516
01:28:24,006 --> 01:28:26,884
the death of many
of the key players involved
1517
01:28:26,968 --> 01:28:29,178
and the limitations of technology.
1518
01:28:30,513 --> 01:28:34,476
Thus, the photo attribution
will remain as is."
1519
01:29:05,548 --> 01:29:07,675
[soft music]
1520
01:29:18,310 --> 01:29:21,731
[in Vietnamese] Yes, that’s the camera.
It was a Pentax, yes.
1521
01:29:41,918 --> 01:29:44,504
{\an8}Using material revealed
in AP's report,
1522
01:29:44,587 --> 01:29:46,589
{\an8}we can now refine our conclusions.
1523
01:29:47,965 --> 01:29:51,302
First, we have analyzed this photograph
by David Burnett.
1524
01:29:52,470 --> 01:29:54,639
Nick Út appears in the foreground,
1525
01:29:54,722 --> 01:29:58,435
while Kim Phúc is still in
the fields beside the main road.
1526
01:29:59,310 --> 01:30:01,604
The long lens compresses perspective,
1527
01:30:01,688 --> 01:30:04,398
making them seem closer
than they are.
1528
01:30:06,734 --> 01:30:09,904
A barbed wire fence visible beside Út
1529
01:30:09,987 --> 01:30:12,740
shows he's still at the checkpoint.
1530
01:30:15,993 --> 01:30:19,246
Namely, about 170 meters
from the spot
1531
01:30:19,330 --> 01:30:22,709
where the Napalm Girl photograph
will soon be taken.
1532
01:30:23,417 --> 01:30:27,964
At this moment, Kim Phúc is only
60 meters away from that spot.
1533
01:30:29,716 --> 01:30:31,551
Our next photograph shows that
1534
01:30:31,634 --> 01:30:34,011
for Út to have taken the famous picture,
1535
01:30:34,095 --> 01:30:35,972
he would have needed
to run three times
1536
01:30:36,055 --> 01:30:37,599
the distance traveled by Kim Phúc
1537
01:30:37,682 --> 01:30:39,642
in the same brief interval.
1538
01:30:42,895 --> 01:30:46,941
Next, we examine a three-second
piece of NBC footage
1539
01:30:47,024 --> 01:30:50,361
shot immediately after Napalm Girl.
1540
01:30:51,488 --> 01:30:55,282
A careful analysis of the water
marks visible on the road
1541
01:30:55,366 --> 01:30:59,662
in different images allows us to
determine Kim Phúc's movement.
1542
01:31:04,041 --> 01:31:06,711
From her position
in the Napalm Girl photograph,
1543
01:31:07,294 --> 01:31:10,548
she has advanced approximately
40 meters up the road
1544
01:31:10,632 --> 01:31:14,844
by the time she appears from behind
in this frame of the ITN footage.
1545
01:31:16,470 --> 01:31:20,349
Based on her estimated speed,
about 15 seconds have elapsed
1546
01:31:20,432 --> 01:31:22,685
since the famous shot.
1547
01:31:24,436 --> 01:31:26,898
Our 3D reconstruction of this frame
1548
01:31:26,981 --> 01:31:30,317
places Nick Út at the distance
of about 50 meters
1549
01:31:30,401 --> 01:31:32,862
from the ITN cameramen at this moment.
1550
01:31:34,446 --> 01:31:38,535
In other words, about 15 seconds
after the photograph was taken,
1551
01:31:38,618 --> 01:31:43,665
Út is visible approximately
75 meters, or 250 feet away
1552
01:31:43,748 --> 01:31:46,626
from the spot where Napalm Girl was shot,
1553
01:31:46,709 --> 01:31:49,754
still walking down the road
from the opposite direction.
1554
01:31:51,047 --> 01:31:53,007
For Nick Út to
have taken the photograph,
1555
01:31:53,090 --> 01:31:56,636
he would have had to sprint
170 meters down the road
1556
01:31:56,719 --> 01:31:58,387
from his position at the checkpoint.
1557
01:31:59,931 --> 01:32:03,810
Then sprint back 75 meters, turn around,
1558
01:32:03,893 --> 01:32:06,437
and finally reappear moments later
1559
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:09,231
calmly walking back towards the scene.
1560
01:32:10,191 --> 01:32:13,695
This appears as an extremely
implausible scenario.
1561
01:32:19,784 --> 01:32:26,666
[indistinct chatter echoes]
1562
01:32:34,716 --> 01:32:39,011
{\an8}New research asserts that Nick Út is
not the author of this iconic photograph.
1563
01:32:39,095 --> 01:32:41,973
And this prompted deep reflection
within World Press Photo
1564
01:32:42,056 --> 01:32:43,933
and a subsequent investigation.
1565
01:32:44,601 --> 01:32:48,145
I would now like to invite the director
of World Press Photo Foundation,
1566
01:32:48,229 --> 01:32:50,522
Joumana El Zein Khoury, to the stage.
1567
01:32:51,190 --> 01:32:53,192
Please give her a big round of applause.
1568
01:32:53,275 --> 01:32:55,111
[applause]
1569
01:32:55,194 --> 01:32:58,239
[applause continues over speaker]
1570
01:32:59,448 --> 01:33:02,284
[Joumana]
In line with our judging procedures,
1571
01:33:02,785 --> 01:33:05,079
and our values,
1572
01:33:05,162 --> 01:33:08,332
{\an8}we cannot, with
the amount of doubt that exists,
1573
01:33:08,415 --> 01:33:12,503
{\an8}continue to say that the photo
is attributed to Nick Út.
1574
01:33:13,379 --> 01:33:15,297
What we have done is suspend
1575
01:33:15,381 --> 01:33:18,801
the attribution of the authorship
to Nick Út.
1576
01:33:19,468 --> 01:33:22,680
We think authorship is very important.
1577
01:33:22,764 --> 01:33:25,224
We think that the truth is very important.
1578
01:33:25,307 --> 01:33:27,601
We think that accuracy is very important,
1579
01:33:27,685 --> 01:33:30,647
and we think that our public
and our community
1580
01:33:30,730 --> 01:33:33,524
deserves to have that, especially…
1581
01:34:06,098 --> 01:34:08,475
[Gary] What we accept
as the official record
1582
01:34:08,559 --> 01:34:11,520
is often shaped more
by power than by perspective.
1583
01:34:13,105 --> 01:34:16,525
But even the most entrenched histories
deserve to be reexamined.
1584
01:34:18,235 --> 01:34:20,612
Countless Vietnamese
photographers and reporters
1585
01:34:20,697 --> 01:34:23,282
worked in anonymity
during the Vietnam War,
1586
01:34:23,783 --> 01:34:25,159
not out of choice,
1587
01:34:25,242 --> 01:34:27,661
but because their work
was credited to others.
1588
01:34:28,495 --> 01:34:31,165
They accepted it because
they had no choice.
1589
01:34:32,792 --> 01:34:35,127
They were outsiders in their own country,
1590
01:34:35,211 --> 01:34:37,254
and they knew no-one would listen.
1591
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:42,844
[soft music]
1592
01:34:46,723 --> 01:34:50,935
[Jannie] My mom passed away
nine years ago.
1593
01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:57,233
A few weeks ago, I was thinking of her,
1594
01:34:57,316 --> 01:35:00,152
and I decided to go through
1595
01:35:00,236 --> 01:35:04,073
the red case in Mom’s closet,
1596
01:35:05,950 --> 01:35:09,161
and the last thing I saw
1597
01:35:09,245 --> 01:35:15,459
was a-- [cries]
…was a piece of an old newspaper,
1598
01:35:16,127 --> 01:35:20,214
carefully cut and folded neatly.
1599
01:35:21,382 --> 01:35:23,926
An iconic photo
1600
01:35:24,010 --> 01:35:28,222
that Mom threw it away many years ago,
1601
01:35:28,305 --> 01:35:31,725
but she kept the newspaper photo,
1602
01:35:32,268 --> 01:35:34,520
and she saved it,
1603
01:35:34,603 --> 01:35:37,857
secretly, silently.
1604
01:35:37,940 --> 01:35:39,859
[sniffles]
1605
01:35:44,864 --> 01:35:46,573
[Gary] Silence isn't truth,
1606
01:35:46,657 --> 01:35:48,742
and as years pass,
the silence beats louder.
1607
01:35:49,493 --> 01:35:52,538
Challenged by time, memory is imperfect.
1608
01:35:52,621 --> 01:35:56,500
But it matters who pressed the shutter,
not just for one man's legacy,
1609
01:35:56,583 --> 01:36:01,839
but for what it says about who
gets remembered and who gets erased.
1610
01:36:07,594 --> 01:36:10,097
[speaking Vietnamese]
When the truth is disregarded,
1611
01:36:10,181 --> 01:36:13,350
that's when society becomes corrupted.
1612
01:36:13,851 --> 01:36:20,817
The truth is the truth,
it cannot be twisted, or torn apart.
1613
01:36:21,483 --> 01:36:26,780
Because if so, it's no longer the truth,
and we will have lost our moral compass.
1614
01:36:37,499 --> 01:36:40,627
[Lê Vân] After fifty years I hope
that people will no longer see
1615
01:36:40,711 --> 01:36:42,546
Vietnamese children through that photo
1616
01:36:42,629 --> 01:36:44,590
but through other brighter,
happier images.
1617
01:36:49,303 --> 01:36:55,101
My hope is that the truth will be restored
to its rightful place
1618
01:36:55,184 --> 01:36:58,770
and that Nick Út himself
will feel a sense of relief and peace.
1619
01:37:04,401 --> 01:37:08,614
[dramatic music]
1620
01:37:57,496 --> 01:37:59,540
[Gary] The photograph of
a nine-year-old girl
1621
01:37:59,623 --> 01:38:01,042
called Phan Thi Kim Phúc,
1622
01:38:01,125 --> 01:38:02,584
and four other children
1623
01:38:02,668 --> 01:38:04,336
running towards a photographer,
1624
01:38:04,420 --> 01:38:08,049
burning and screaming, in June 1972,
1625
01:38:08,132 --> 01:38:09,883
which became one of
the most important
1626
01:38:09,967 --> 01:38:11,468
photographs ever made,
1627
01:38:11,552 --> 01:38:17,474
was created, I believe,
by a man called Nguyễn Thành Nghệ.
1628
01:38:17,558 --> 01:38:21,603
[melancholic music]
1629
01:38:21,687 --> 01:38:23,147
[clicks]
1630
01:38:39,205 --> 01:38:43,417
[Nghệ, in Vietnamese, voiceover] I've held
onto this truth for more than 50 years.
1631
01:38:46,837 --> 01:38:47,964
[inaudible]
1632
01:38:48,839 --> 01:38:52,551
[Nghệ, in Vietnamese, voiceover]
I was the one who took the photograph.
1633
01:38:53,052 --> 01:38:55,512
Now I have a voice.
1634
01:39:08,067 --> 01:39:14,948
[dramatic music]