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When you're photographing with film,
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there’s always some mystery.
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But what you do know
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is what you didn’t take.
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After two runs, it became obvious
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that the Skyraiders
had picked the wrong target,
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and were bombing their own positions.
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In the distance, we could see
South Vietnamese troops
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frantically scrambling
across the highway to safety.
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As we watched, they gestured
to a group of civilians to join them.
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It was then that the Skyraider
made the third run.
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They dropped four canisters of napalm
on those civilians and troops.
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After few moments, a group
of we press men, who’d been watching,
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moved cautiously down the road
into the smoke.
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The sights which greeted us were awful.
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After black smoke,
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I saw one woman running first.
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Then another woman carry the baby.
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She called, "Help me, help me.
My grandchild."
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Stopped by all the media,
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and the boy died like one second
after I shot my picture.
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Almost the first person we saw
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was a little girl aged about nine,
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running up the road.
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She hadn’t got any clothes on.
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She’d presumably torn them off
when they caught fire.
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When I looked through the camera,
I saw the girl.
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Hold her arms like this, running.
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I took a picture of her.
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When she passed me,
I saw her skin come off,
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the body burned so badly,
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I said, "No, I don’t want no more pictures
of her, I think she'll die in minutes."
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This was a picture that five of us,
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or six of us,
were looking at in one moment,
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and 24 hours later, probably
a billion people had seen that picture.
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{\an8}It was printed all over the world.
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It was such a shocking image,
that it seared itself
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into the collective consciousness
of the American people.
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For Nick, it meant the Pulitzer Prize.
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Pulitzer Prize and
the 1973 World Press Photo of the Year.
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Ladies and gentlemen, Nick Út.
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The very famous AP photographer, Nick Út.
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Nick Út.
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One of the most influential
and recognizable
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photographs in history.
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It was 35 years ago…
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Forty years have passed.
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{\an8}The fiftieth anniversary of
an iconic image.
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{\an8}Pope Francis personally met the woman
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{\an8}known as Napalm Girl,
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and the photojournalist
whose work transformed both of them
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into symbols for peace.
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How do you reconcile something so tragic,
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yet something that has brought fame?
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Good luck.
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Dear Gary, I have carried
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this burden for the past 50 years,
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and never gone public.
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I was AP's Saigon photo editor,
back in 1972,
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at the time of Nick Út shooting
the famous Napalm Girl photo.
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Simply put, Nick didn’t really
take that famous picture.
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It was actually a stringer, or freelancer.
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There's a lot more to this story.
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It’s time to clear my conscience.
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I was a freelance photographer
for two decades.
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It’s a fragile existence.
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All you have is the authorship
of your work.
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It’s your income and it’s your legacy.
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Some photographs
just transcend all others.
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They capture something,
they represent a story,
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a moment in time,
in a way that other photographs
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simply don’t reach.
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It’s difficult to explain, actually,
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but you kind of know it when you see it.
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One day in December 2022,
I received an email…
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Dear Gary…
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…from someone called Carl Robinson,
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I have carried this burden
for the past 50 years. Simply put,
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Nick didn’t really take
that famous picture.
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That’s a hell of an allegation,
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and I was stunned.
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While I was certainly complicit…
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He was the AP photo editor.
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He was in the room.
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…like a repetitive nightmare.
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And he said,
"I’m ready to tell my story,
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I’m ready to share it with the world,
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and I’d like you to help me."
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The photograph of Kim Phúc
is perhaps the most iconic,
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famous photograph of a war ever made.
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It’s sort of sacred ground,
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and the idea that it might
have been made
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by somebody else other than Nick Út
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was devastating, actually.
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So, I thought, well, you know,
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that is an accusation
that needs to be investigated,
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for sure,
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and it might turn out to be incorrect,
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it might turn out that we’ll never know.
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but it’s certainly a question
that demands some answers.
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I needed to sit down with Carl.
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These were serious allegations.
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Even though we have friends in common,
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I didn't really know Carl.
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Would I believe him?
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Or is this just a long-held grudge?
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Hey, Carl.
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- How are you?
- Good to see you.
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My whole past is
right in front of me here.
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No kidding!
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Carl, let’s dive straight into Trảng Bàng,
June 8th 1972.
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{\an8}Tell us, how did your day start?
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{\an8}I was usually at work by about
7:30 in the morning,
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looking over the wires, from overnight
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and early reports
on what needed to be covered.
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We did not hear in the AP office,
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that something that
happened at Trảng Bàng.
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We didn’t even know that anything
was going on up the road.
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You guys are all back in Saigon.
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What happened, when you got back
from lunch that day?
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I came back a bit later than usual,
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like about three o’clock.
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Horst Faas and Peter Arnett
were still having lunch
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at the Royale Hotel,
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and Jackson had already
processed the film.
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Jackson said, "Hey, have a look at this."
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And it was the picture
of this naked young girl,
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running down the road.
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And our first reaction was
we really can’t use that.
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We never show any
frontal nudity of children.
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I went through the film as well,
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I checked the bylines
on who had shot what.
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We had a double-logging system
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in a school exercise book.
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We had about four rolls of film,
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we had Nick Út’s film,
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and from two other stringers, as I recall.
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The full on front picture
was from a stringer,
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I checked his name.
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There was a picture from Nick Út,
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that showed the girl running by
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from a side angle,
and that was actually my pick,
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because it was discreet.
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And that’s when Horst Faas
came back from lunch.
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{\an8}Horst Faas,
the legendary AP photographer,
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{\an8}I guess you’d call him
a hulking sort of guy,
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{\an8}he was a real pro.
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The lab that he had set up there
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in the Associated Press office
was world-class,
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but he was a hard taskmaster, too.
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You never wanted to get offside
with Horst.
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He had a real temper.
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The picture was lying
right there on the desk,
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and he saw that, and it was like, bang!
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That’s what we’re going with.
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There was no question about it.
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It was his call, and he was the boss.
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And then I started writing the caption.
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And I was getting to the end of it,
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I had about four lines,
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and you’d put "STF/"
for staff photographer,
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and for a stringer, you would
put "STR/" and the name.
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And I glanced over to the notebook,
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and Horst Faas, who had been
standing right next to me,
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said, "Nick Út, make it Nick Út.
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Make it staff."
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"Make it Nick Út,"
those were his words exactly.
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And those have been with me
the rest of my life,
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those words.
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But why didn’t you turn round
to Horst and say no?
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I’ve struggled with that
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for the rest of my life, frankly.
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I mean, I owed my job
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to Horst Faas.
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I had been married three years
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and we had two kids,
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and this was my job, this was my living.
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I-I didn’t argue, I just did it.
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And I’ve always felt bad about that,
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my whole life, that I didn’t,
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that I wasn’t courageous enough.
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You know, it’s just one of those things
that preyed on me,
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you’re right, you know, culpability.
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I remember he came back
really late that night,
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and he was very upset,
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{\an8}and he’d go on and on about it's
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{\an8}this little girl with, you know,
burns and everything.
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I recall that he mentioned
that Horst wanted me to put
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Nick Út’s name on this picture,
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but it’s not Nick Út taking it,
somebody else did,
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and he was very upset.
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That’s all I remember.
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Whenever I come through the office,
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the Vietnamese always
come and talk to me.
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What did they say?
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They said, "That picture is not Nick Út."
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Would it be fair to say
it was like an open secret
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00:12:37,423 --> 00:12:38,758
amongst the Vietnamese--
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- Yes.
- …photographers?
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Carl, we’ve looked through these pictures
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and we can identify
most of the people in them,
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the NBC group, Nick Út,
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but there is somebody
who appears in these photographs,
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I’ve never seen photographs
that have been credited to…
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Do you know who that is?
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I suspect this might be
the guy we’re looking for.
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00:13:01,238 --> 00:13:05,367
So, your hypothesis
is that this man is the stringer
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00:13:05,451 --> 00:13:08,370
who photographed Kim Phúc from the front?
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00:13:08,454 --> 00:13:09,663
Yes, exactly.
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00:13:09,747 --> 00:13:11,165
An unfamiliar stringer,
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00:13:11,248 --> 00:13:14,794
he wasn’t part of
our regular army of stringers.
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00:13:14,877 --> 00:13:17,171
It wasn’t a name I was familiar with.
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00:13:17,254 --> 00:13:18,589
So, I didn’t remember it.
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00:13:22,885 --> 00:13:25,805
Fifty years,
and I’m going to be eighty years old.
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00:13:26,597 --> 00:13:27,723
It’s something I really want to do,
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00:13:27,807 --> 00:13:28,766
before I pass away,
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00:13:28,849 --> 00:13:31,393
is find the real photographer
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00:13:31,477 --> 00:13:34,980
and, what, just say sorry, right?
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00:13:38,734 --> 00:13:41,278
I know sorry is never enough.
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00:13:42,696 --> 00:13:46,617
At least set the record straight,
right, that I,
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00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:51,205
you know… I think an apology is
the best thing I can do at this stage.
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00:13:51,872 --> 00:13:53,249
Perhaps the only thing you can do?
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00:13:53,332 --> 00:13:54,333
Exactly.
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00:14:02,883 --> 00:14:05,344
{\an8}Nick Út’s status as the photographer
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00:14:06,095 --> 00:14:09,056
{\an8}is almost as well-known
as the photo itself.
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00:14:09,723 --> 00:14:11,392
Hold the arms like this,
running.
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00:14:11,475 --> 00:14:13,519
Then I run right away…
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00:14:13,602 --> 00:14:16,188
Nick’s brother, Win Tan Mi,
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00:14:16,272 --> 00:14:17,940
was an actor and photographer
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00:14:18,023 --> 00:14:21,151
who was killed on assignment
for AP in 1965.
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00:14:22,570 --> 00:14:24,029
The narrative of a village boy
234
00:14:24,113 --> 00:14:25,573
who steps out of the shadow
235
00:14:25,656 --> 00:14:26,991
of his talented elder sibling…
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00:14:27,074 --> 00:14:28,617
AP is my family now.
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00:14:28,701 --> 00:14:31,161
…and wins a Pulitzer Prize
at the age of 21,
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00:14:31,745 --> 00:14:33,539
is the stuff of legend.
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00:14:34,832 --> 00:14:38,377
A legend the AP have promoted
for fifty years,
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including in their book and film,
'From Hell to Hollywood.'
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I came to LA in 1977
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00:14:45,134 --> 00:14:46,969
I look at Hollywood and I said, "My God,
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00:14:47,678 --> 00:14:49,722
Vietnam and Hollywood big difference."
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00:14:49,805 --> 00:14:52,474
He's a natural
in his ability to get himself
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00:14:52,558 --> 00:14:54,351
in a good position to take that shot.
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00:14:54,935 --> 00:14:58,147
Turning that legend over
would be rewriting history.
247
00:14:59,148 --> 00:15:02,234
If Nick Út didn’t take it, who did?
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00:15:03,903 --> 00:15:07,406
{\an8}This is where the AP offices were,
right here.
249
00:15:07,489 --> 00:15:08,991
{\an8}This is going to be impossible.
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00:15:09,575 --> 00:15:11,952
We’re never going to be able to
find this guy.
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00:15:12,494 --> 00:15:15,915
We have no information about who he is.
252
00:15:16,498 --> 00:15:18,000
We don’t know if he’s alive,
253
00:15:18,083 --> 00:15:19,376
if he’s still in Vietnam,
254
00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:21,462
if he’s in another country.
255
00:15:22,046 --> 00:15:27,593
I worked here
much later so I didn't know those people.
256
00:15:28,218 --> 00:15:31,096
He doesn’t know anyone working in the AP.
257
00:15:31,180 --> 00:15:34,058
All he knows is the photographer club.
258
00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:45,069
My name is Lê Vân,
259
00:15:45,152 --> 00:15:48,155
and I am a journalist
living in Ho Chi Minh City.
260
00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,951
At first this story captured my curiosity
261
00:15:52,034 --> 00:15:54,745
but I wasn't sure
if the story was true or not.
262
00:15:55,287 --> 00:15:59,875
I wanted to know, if it is true,
263
00:15:59,959 --> 00:16:03,921
then how could it have been hidden
for so many years?
264
00:16:04,004 --> 00:16:07,508
When Mr. Carl told me that he wanted to
265
00:16:07,591 --> 00:16:10,636
find the true author of the photo
to say sorry to him -
266
00:16:11,136 --> 00:16:14,682
he sent me a few photographs of the person
267
00:16:14,765 --> 00:16:18,727
who he thought was
the author of the photo.
268
00:16:18,811 --> 00:16:22,648
And from that I started to look for him.
269
00:16:28,737 --> 00:16:30,489
Morning, how are you?
270
00:16:30,572 --> 00:16:31,991
Good to see you. You well?
271
00:16:32,074 --> 00:16:33,909
My generation was always trying
272
00:16:33,993 --> 00:16:37,871
to live up to the mythological presence
of the photographers of Vietnam.
273
00:16:41,625 --> 00:16:44,211
AP’s photographic legacy in Vietnam
274
00:16:44,294 --> 00:16:46,880
is built on the four Pulitzers
it won there:
275
00:16:47,548 --> 00:16:50,509
Malcolm Browne’s self-immolating monk,
276
00:16:50,592 --> 00:16:53,429
Horst Faas’s photo essay from 1964,
277
00:16:54,179 --> 00:16:56,682
Eddie Adams’ Vietcong execution,
278
00:16:57,599 --> 00:17:00,102
and the photograph of a nine-year-old girl
279
00:17:00,185 --> 00:17:03,188
{\an8}running from a napalm attack
in Trảng Bàng.
280
00:17:21,665 --> 00:17:25,586
{\an8}She ran out from the temple,
out to the road, in the middle,
281
00:17:25,669 --> 00:17:29,798
then they all ran here. Where we are now.
282
00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:39,767
{\an8}They first bombed in this area, this one,
then continued to others.
283
00:17:40,934 --> 00:17:42,686
This was the first attack.
284
00:17:43,187 --> 00:17:44,813
So this would be the napalm
285
00:17:44,897 --> 00:17:45,856
that burned the children?
286
00:17:45,939 --> 00:17:47,441
Yes, napalm
287
00:17:48,484 --> 00:17:50,944
This was me with Kim Phúc's family.
288
00:17:51,028 --> 00:17:51,862
Here's Kim Phúc.
289
00:17:52,362 --> 00:17:53,530
Tâm.
290
00:17:53,614 --> 00:17:56,283
All family. These too, all family.
291
00:17:57,534 --> 00:17:59,119
Is this you here?
292
00:17:59,203 --> 00:18:01,246
And where are you, you’re here?
293
00:18:02,289 --> 00:18:03,999
Yes, that's me.
294
00:18:04,083 --> 00:18:05,167
Here?
295
00:18:05,250 --> 00:18:07,252
Here, my sister was leading my brother.
296
00:18:07,336 --> 00:18:10,380
There was a lot of screaming.
297
00:18:10,464 --> 00:18:16,512
I stayed calm and peeled off
the bomb pieces
298
00:18:16,595 --> 00:18:22,017
that stuck like burnt rice on them.
299
00:18:22,643 --> 00:18:26,146
So, where were you when the bomb dropped?
300
00:18:26,230 --> 00:18:27,815
I was running.
301
00:18:27,898 --> 00:18:31,443
Then as I was running, the bomb dropped.
302
00:18:32,111 --> 00:18:37,616
I ran with Unit 25 while Kim Phúc was
with her grandmother so she got burned.
303
00:18:37,699 --> 00:18:39,493
So you came out with Kim Phúc?
304
00:18:40,452 --> 00:18:44,289
We ran together.
Each group of each side of the bridge,
305
00:18:44,373 --> 00:18:46,792
running, tumbling screaming.
306
00:18:46,875 --> 00:18:49,545
And ran up to the journalists?
307
00:18:49,628 --> 00:18:51,713
Did you understand
who the journalists were,
308
00:18:51,797 --> 00:18:53,048
or what they were doing?
309
00:18:53,132 --> 00:18:54,675
Did you know they were journalists?
310
00:18:54,758 --> 00:18:57,427
No, I didn’t know. I didn’t know
who was taking pictures either.
311
00:18:57,511 --> 00:19:01,932
So, this is when some of
the last photographs were taken?
312
00:19:02,015 --> 00:19:05,144
The injured children,
they were taken to the hospital.
313
00:19:05,227 --> 00:19:07,646
Do you have any recollection,
how that happened?
314
00:19:07,729 --> 00:19:09,648
And how did the children get to hospital?
315
00:19:09,731 --> 00:19:12,651
Specifically, how did Kim Phúc
get to hospital?
316
00:19:13,235 --> 00:19:14,945
I saw them putting her in a vehicle.
317
00:19:15,028 --> 00:19:16,155
Who put her in a vehicle?
318
00:19:16,238 --> 00:19:19,741
People around, people
helped each other and put her in.
319
00:19:19,825 --> 00:19:21,493
Who were they?
320
00:19:21,577 --> 00:19:23,078
There were many people?
321
00:19:23,162 --> 00:19:24,413
But they were civilians or soldiers?
322
00:19:24,496 --> 00:19:26,582
Civilians, they put her in a vehicle.
323
00:19:27,166 --> 00:19:30,919
Back then, anyone who looked neat,
white and fair-skinned,
324
00:19:31,003 --> 00:19:33,172
we thought they were Americans.
325
00:19:33,255 --> 00:19:38,260
We just said, let them take her to
save her. And it's true, she was saved.
326
00:19:39,553 --> 00:19:45,267
Pàk, is this the man who you saw
take Kim Phúc in the car to hospital?
327
00:19:45,809 --> 00:19:47,144
No. No.
328
00:19:48,103 --> 00:19:51,106
The person was
just a well-dressed civilian.
329
00:19:51,899 --> 00:19:54,443
That's all we remember.
330
00:19:55,569 --> 00:19:58,113
The past is the past, just let it go.
331
00:20:00,199 --> 00:20:01,825
Okay, alright, thank you.
332
00:20:02,659 --> 00:20:03,827
Ladies and gentlemen, Nick Út.
333
00:20:08,332 --> 00:20:09,625
You know, she shouldn’t have survived.
334
00:20:09,708 --> 00:20:11,877
It was only because Nick
put his camera down,
335
00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,046
and he drove her to a hospital.
336
00:20:14,129 --> 00:20:17,716
I picked her
up, put her in my company car - the van
337
00:20:17,799 --> 00:20:22,638
and all the kids inside they cry
all the time for 40 minutes, 35 minutes.
338
00:20:22,721 --> 00:20:24,598
We stopped at Cu Chi hospital -
339
00:20:25,432 --> 00:20:27,392
when I showed my media pass,
it worked very well.
340
00:20:27,476 --> 00:20:28,977
They take her inside right away.
341
00:20:43,033 --> 00:20:45,285
That photo had a profound impact
342
00:20:45,369 --> 00:20:47,663
on the history of my country.
343
00:20:49,957 --> 00:20:56,338
The "napalm girl" photo helped
the anti-war movement in Vietnam.
344
00:20:56,421 --> 00:21:00,050
And that was extremely meaningful
to the Vietnamese people
345
00:21:00,133 --> 00:21:03,136
who had experienced a long wartime period,
of pain, and loss.
346
00:21:04,471 --> 00:21:08,600
Because of this,
the person who was able to
347
00:21:08,684 --> 00:21:14,314
bring this moment and image to the world
is a hero in Vietnamese history.
348
00:21:22,197 --> 00:21:24,324
I saw the entire Vietnam War, you can say,
349
00:21:24,408 --> 00:21:26,994
from '68 onwards, in black-and-white film.
350
00:21:28,829 --> 00:21:31,039
One thing that I think
outsiders didn’t realize was
351
00:21:31,123 --> 00:21:33,875
how competitive
that Saigon press corps is.
352
00:21:34,459 --> 00:21:36,795
It was more than a thousand
accredited journalists
353
00:21:36,878 --> 00:21:38,547
from all around the world.
354
00:21:39,131 --> 00:21:42,259
{\an8}If you heard that
there was an important battle,
355
00:21:42,342 --> 00:21:43,885
{\an8}you would get up really early
in the morning,
356
00:21:43,969 --> 00:21:46,805
to be the first
to get on a helicopter to go there.
357
00:21:47,848 --> 00:21:49,891
You’d be very pleased
if there wasn’t an AP guy
358
00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:51,018
or Reuter's guy there.
359
00:21:58,317 --> 00:22:01,278
{\an8}Journalists
had the honorary rank of major,
360
00:22:01,361 --> 00:22:03,488
{\an8}so if you wanted to hop on a helicopter,
361
00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:05,115
and there's some captain waiting in line,
362
00:22:05,198 --> 00:22:07,451
you could just tell them to buzz off.
363
00:22:09,536 --> 00:22:11,413
For a young journalist,
364
00:22:11,496 --> 00:22:13,915
it was a real adventure playground.
365
00:22:13,999 --> 00:22:17,794
I have to confess, I was more interested
in the adventure, perhaps,
366
00:22:17,878 --> 00:22:20,672
than the actual human impact of the war.
367
00:22:22,049 --> 00:22:23,216
And the more time I spent,
368
00:22:23,300 --> 00:22:25,093
I realized how horrific it was.
369
00:22:28,263 --> 00:22:31,266
During the operation,
53 enemy were killed,
370
00:22:32,351 --> 00:22:34,644
856 suspects were detained.
371
00:22:35,729 --> 00:22:38,940
There was a kind of camaraderie
of the press
372
00:22:39,024 --> 00:22:40,567
going out during the day,
373
00:22:40,650 --> 00:22:43,695
{\an8}maybe going into a battle situation,
374
00:22:43,779 --> 00:22:45,864
{\an8}and then coming back at night,
375
00:22:47,032 --> 00:22:50,786
totally separated
from the vulnerability of the people.
376
00:22:50,869 --> 00:22:52,120
It was surreal,
377
00:22:52,662 --> 00:22:56,333
and you could see the bullets
being fired all around the city,
378
00:22:57,084 --> 00:22:59,669
and you were sitting watching,
379
00:23:00,504 --> 00:23:02,339
and having a gin and tonic.
380
00:23:06,426 --> 00:23:07,761
Carl and I were friends,
381
00:23:07,844 --> 00:23:10,222
but we were a different breed.
382
00:23:10,806 --> 00:23:12,432
We were local hires.
383
00:23:13,809 --> 00:23:15,560
We both had Vietnamese wives.
384
00:23:16,853 --> 00:23:20,190
We would go out at night and drink beer,
385
00:23:20,273 --> 00:23:23,902
and just be with the Vietnamese.
386
00:23:26,405 --> 00:23:30,242
And we both had a respect for the richness
387
00:23:30,325 --> 00:23:34,121
of the Vietnamese culture,
and the vulnerability of the people.
388
00:23:36,081 --> 00:23:39,418
The Associated Press office
was an amazing school,
389
00:23:39,501 --> 00:23:41,878
an amazing place to learn,
as I did myself.
390
00:23:41,962 --> 00:23:44,423
The Easter Offensive,
391
00:23:44,506 --> 00:23:47,884
which had begun in March, April '72
392
00:23:47,968 --> 00:23:50,595
a lot of the U.S. ground troops
had already been pulled out.
393
00:23:50,679 --> 00:23:52,639
As part of the wind down,
394
00:23:52,722 --> 00:23:55,267
Western news agencies
were also cutting back on staff.
395
00:23:55,851 --> 00:23:58,145
By that stage,
I was actually the photo editor.
396
00:23:59,312 --> 00:24:00,647
So when the offensive broke,
397
00:24:00,730 --> 00:24:02,858
we were short-handed, right?
398
00:24:02,941 --> 00:24:06,027
In a bit of trouble there, you could say.
399
00:24:06,111 --> 00:24:07,863
We lost a plane, a UPI.
400
00:24:08,947 --> 00:24:11,450
So Horst Faas came back from Singapore,
401
00:24:11,533 --> 00:24:13,910
and he basically took over photos for me.
402
00:24:15,036 --> 00:24:18,206
There were key figures
of the Saigon press corps.
403
00:24:18,290 --> 00:24:20,375
Horst Faas, who was a legendary figure.
404
00:24:21,042 --> 00:24:23,295
His word was law in the AP bureau.
405
00:24:23,837 --> 00:24:26,673
He’d worked with Peter Arnett,
and other Pulitzer Prize winners,
406
00:24:26,756 --> 00:24:27,924
and so it would surely matter.
407
00:24:28,675 --> 00:24:30,385
Horst was this beefy guy
408
00:24:30,469 --> 00:24:32,053
with this wonderful Bavarian accent,
409
00:24:32,846 --> 00:24:35,140
drank a decent amount, ate well,
410
00:24:35,223 --> 00:24:36,641
was a tremendous photographer.
411
00:24:37,225 --> 00:24:39,394
Nothing came between Horst
and a good picture.
412
00:24:39,478 --> 00:24:41,897
We had our corps of Western
413
00:24:41,980 --> 00:24:45,108
and a few Vietnamese staff photographers.
414
00:24:45,192 --> 00:24:47,861
And then we had Faas’ army of stringers,
415
00:24:47,944 --> 00:24:50,530
or freelancers, all over the place.
416
00:24:51,615 --> 00:24:54,367
They relied so heavily
on Vietnamese photographers
417
00:24:54,451 --> 00:24:56,495
who would go out, days on end,
418
00:24:56,578 --> 00:24:58,830
into the field, laden with film,
419
00:24:58,914 --> 00:25:00,874
you know, perhaps come back
a week or two later.
420
00:25:01,875 --> 00:25:04,628
Mostly South Vietnamese Army
photographers,
421
00:25:04,711 --> 00:25:06,421
who wanted to make
a bit of money on the side,
422
00:25:06,505 --> 00:25:08,173
they’d give us the film.
423
00:25:08,715 --> 00:25:10,800
You’d type a receipt, get them to sign it,
424
00:25:10,884 --> 00:25:12,969
and then give it to the office secretary,
425
00:25:13,053 --> 00:25:14,554
and she would pay them in green back,
426
00:25:14,638 --> 00:25:16,932
twenty dollars, green.
427
00:25:20,393 --> 00:25:22,229
Carl, this photograph…
428
00:25:22,312 --> 00:25:25,524
at what point in the AP office,
429
00:25:25,607 --> 00:25:29,861
did you realize
what this photograph represented?
430
00:25:30,612 --> 00:25:33,323
Well, the immediate reaction
was the very next morning,
431
00:25:33,406 --> 00:25:35,200
when it had indeed gone out to the world,
432
00:25:35,283 --> 00:25:37,077
and the reaction was coming in.
433
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:38,912
That’s when we realized, bang,
434
00:25:38,995 --> 00:25:41,289
that really is going to be a big story.
435
00:25:42,624 --> 00:25:46,169
The children seen in
this photograph were victims today
436
00:25:46,253 --> 00:25:47,963
of the South Vietnamese Air Force.
437
00:25:56,846 --> 00:26:00,475
One, two, three, four.
We don't want your fucking war!
438
00:26:17,993 --> 00:26:23,248
This picture didn’t have impact
in Vietnam at that time.
439
00:26:24,374 --> 00:26:26,668
{\an8}If, a big if,
440
00:26:27,794 --> 00:26:30,422
{\an8}we got the news about a girl
441
00:26:30,922 --> 00:26:32,924
{\an8}burned by napalm bombs,
442
00:26:33,758 --> 00:26:36,011
it was just a scan,
443
00:26:36,928 --> 00:26:38,638
passing by very fast.
444
00:26:38,722 --> 00:26:41,349
It was much less important
445
00:26:41,433 --> 00:26:46,062
than the news about, say, one, ten,
446
00:26:46,146 --> 00:26:48,773
a hundred, even a thousand
people killed a day.
447
00:26:54,362 --> 00:26:57,282
I think I got a call from Carl,
448
00:26:57,365 --> 00:26:59,075
if I could come to the AP office
449
00:26:59,159 --> 00:27:01,494
to help him find someone in a hospital.
450
00:27:01,578 --> 00:27:04,331
AP was demanding a follow-up story and
451
00:27:04,414 --> 00:27:07,959
I had to go out and find this napalm girl
452
00:27:08,043 --> 00:27:09,794
wherever she was,
453
00:27:09,878 --> 00:27:13,673
and Nick Út wasn’t saying,
hey, I’ll go with you on that.
454
00:27:13,715 --> 00:27:16,509
He didn’t tell us in the office
where she was.
455
00:27:17,844 --> 00:27:20,430
Tom Fox and our other staff photographer,
456
00:27:20,513 --> 00:27:23,266
the three of us
went out on our motorbikes.
457
00:27:23,975 --> 00:27:27,437
I do remember clearly finding Kim Phúc,
458
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:32,525
standing at her bed with Carl.
459
00:27:32,609 --> 00:27:36,363
She was fully bandaged,
surrounded by a net,
460
00:27:36,446 --> 00:27:38,156
and she was conscious.
461
00:27:39,616 --> 00:27:42,035
I was feeling outraged,
462
00:27:42,702 --> 00:27:48,875
and being so moved by this tragedy,
463
00:27:48,958 --> 00:27:51,378
and by the smell.
464
00:27:54,005 --> 00:27:57,133
She reeked of burnt flesh,
465
00:27:59,052 --> 00:28:04,224
which was just very, very, very difficult.
466
00:28:04,974 --> 00:28:06,309
Very, very difficult.
467
00:28:10,146 --> 00:28:13,066
Through Tom, I interviewed her father
468
00:28:13,149 --> 00:28:14,859
and got the whole story.
469
00:28:18,780 --> 00:28:20,532
There was never any story like Vietnam.
470
00:28:20,615 --> 00:28:22,409
Vietnam took something out of us.
471
00:28:22,492 --> 00:28:25,286
So, Carl, where did you learn
the name of the stringer?
472
00:28:26,204 --> 00:28:29,624
In 2010, we had a reunion
called Vietnam Old Hacks.
473
00:28:29,708 --> 00:28:32,585
The Old Hacks has revealed aspects of Carl
474
00:28:32,669 --> 00:28:34,295
that none of us suspected.
475
00:28:34,379 --> 00:28:37,215
And my wife, Kim Dung,
was sitting with a combat photographer
476
00:28:37,298 --> 00:28:39,843
in the Saigon press corps
who'd heard the name.
477
00:28:42,512 --> 00:28:46,057
The reunion was quite big,
a lot of catching up.
478
00:28:46,141 --> 00:28:49,018
In the distance,
Nick Út would show up something.
479
00:28:49,102 --> 00:28:52,021
Somebody else said to me,
"Did you hear this new one?"
480
00:28:52,981 --> 00:28:55,191
"We know the name of the guy now."
481
00:28:55,775 --> 00:28:57,068
Could you repeat the name for me?
482
00:28:57,152 --> 00:28:58,903
Nghệ. Nghệ.
483
00:29:00,363 --> 00:29:02,574
A very rare Vietnamese name.
484
00:29:08,872 --> 00:29:11,750
Finding the stringer will be difficult
485
00:29:11,833 --> 00:29:13,668
because this story took place so long ago.
486
00:29:14,377 --> 00:29:19,924
The people who could possibly know
have either passed away
487
00:29:20,008 --> 00:29:23,887
or resettled to a foreign country,
and their whereabouts are unclear.
488
00:29:25,889 --> 00:29:30,977
{\an8}When we posted on Facebook,
the information was very vague.
489
00:29:32,771 --> 00:29:34,439
So, I didn’t have high hopes.
490
00:29:37,567 --> 00:29:40,487
"Gary, I enjoyed chatting
with you yesterday,
491
00:29:40,570 --> 00:29:44,657
but my legal counsel has advised me
not to be in the film.
492
00:29:44,741 --> 00:29:46,284
I’m sorry, but I keep declining,
493
00:29:46,367 --> 00:29:49,829
you keep pushing, but
I can’t really do more than I’ve done."
494
00:29:49,913 --> 00:29:52,624
That’s just so disappointing.
495
00:29:52,707 --> 00:29:54,125
He is the second Western journalist
496
00:29:54,209 --> 00:29:55,835
that we’ve approached,
that agreed to an interview
497
00:29:55,919 --> 00:29:57,504
and has then backed out.
498
00:29:57,587 --> 00:30:01,341
So, who do we think
was on the road that day?
499
00:30:01,424 --> 00:30:04,677
In this photograph,
accredited by AP to Nick Út,
500
00:30:04,761 --> 00:30:07,305
we identify the NBC crew,
501
00:30:08,681 --> 00:30:11,059
the British ITN crew,
502
00:30:11,142 --> 00:30:12,811
the New York Times reporter,
503
00:30:13,686 --> 00:30:16,272
the Chicago Tribune reporter,
504
00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:21,402
and several who we believe are freelance
or military photographers.
505
00:30:21,486 --> 00:30:23,446
{\an8}So, for everyone just joining us,
506
00:30:23,530 --> 00:30:26,908
I have David Burnett here,
world-renowned photojournalist.
507
00:30:26,991 --> 00:30:30,328
{\an8}David Burnett, he was both
in Trảng Bàng at the time,
508
00:30:30,411 --> 00:30:33,540
{\an8}and then he was also
in the AP office that afternoon.
509
00:30:33,623 --> 00:30:35,333
{\an8}Everybody thinks that's me
on the right.
510
00:30:35,416 --> 00:30:36,793
- It's not you?
- No, that's not me.
511
00:30:36,876 --> 00:30:37,961
That's not you. Okay.
512
00:30:38,044 --> 00:30:41,089
David has repeatedly said he has no doubt
513
00:30:41,172 --> 00:30:42,757
that Nick took the picture.
514
00:30:42,841 --> 00:30:45,718
We could see people
running out of the smoke,
515
00:30:45,802 --> 00:30:47,846
up the road toward us, and
516
00:30:47,929 --> 00:30:51,057
Nick and another journalist
just took off running
517
00:30:51,140 --> 00:30:52,433
down the road immediately.
518
00:30:52,517 --> 00:30:54,435
You know, it took me another 30 seconds…
519
00:30:54,519 --> 00:30:56,604
{\an8}to get my camera loaded.
520
00:30:56,688 --> 00:31:00,400
{\an8}In those 30 seconds,
that's where Nicky made his picture.
521
00:31:01,192 --> 00:31:02,610
But David, by his own account,
522
00:31:02,694 --> 00:31:05,029
didn’t see who took the photograph,
523
00:31:05,113 --> 00:31:09,409
And I remember being in
the office room of the AP photo section,
524
00:31:09,492 --> 00:31:12,912
when the techie came out
with this little 5x7 wet print.
525
00:31:12,996 --> 00:31:16,749
{\an8}And Horst Faas says, "Well,
you did good work today, Nick Út."
526
00:31:16,833 --> 00:31:18,585
{\an8}Go send it.
527
00:31:18,668 --> 00:31:21,504
{\an8}So, in the same way that
Peter Arnett always says,
528
00:31:21,588 --> 00:31:23,131
you know, hey, I was in the AP office,
529
00:31:23,214 --> 00:31:26,175
I know what happened,
Peter wasn’t a witness
530
00:31:26,259 --> 00:31:27,760
to what went down in the photo room.
531
00:31:27,844 --> 00:31:29,095
There were very few witnesses
532
00:31:29,178 --> 00:31:30,930
to what went down in the photo room.
533
00:31:33,182 --> 00:31:36,769
To undermine AP in Vietnam,
534
00:31:36,853 --> 00:31:40,023
and to undermine Horst Faas,
is a big deal,
535
00:31:40,106 --> 00:31:43,526
and all of their legacies
are wrapped up in that memory.
536
00:31:44,777 --> 00:31:48,948
Okay, so then what about the Vietnamese
that haven't talked to us?
537
00:31:49,032 --> 00:31:50,575
We’ve got the NBC guys.
538
00:31:50,658 --> 00:31:53,369
Võ Sửu and Trần Văn Thân.
539
00:31:53,453 --> 00:31:55,121
Võ Sửu has said no.
540
00:31:56,289 --> 00:31:59,208
{\an8}I did call ---- up one day,
and I asked him about this
541
00:31:59,292 --> 00:32:03,087
{\an8}and he said, "Talk to Carl. He's telling
the truth." That's all he would say.
542
00:32:03,171 --> 00:32:04,213
Okay.
543
00:32:04,297 --> 00:32:06,382
He wouldn't go beyond that.
544
00:32:08,009 --> 00:32:13,806
The whole story is not about
Nick stealing a picture,
545
00:32:13,890 --> 00:32:16,768
it was something that happened to Nick.
546
00:32:18,811 --> 00:32:20,772
Well, he was never consulted, right?
547
00:32:20,855 --> 00:32:23,149
- No.
- As far as we know from Carl.
548
00:32:23,232 --> 00:32:27,403
It was just given to him,
so it’s a suicide pass, you know?
549
00:32:28,071 --> 00:32:30,031
Somebody threw him a hot rock.
550
00:32:30,114 --> 00:32:32,784
He’s, in many ways, a victim too.
551
00:32:33,618 --> 00:32:35,244
And we have to treat him
with the, you know,
552
00:32:35,328 --> 00:32:37,622
appropriate dignity and respect, right?
553
00:33:03,481 --> 00:33:05,108
- Terri?
- Yeah.
554
00:33:05,984 --> 00:33:10,154
So, this Skyraider is dropping
the napalm here,
555
00:33:10,738 --> 00:33:12,699
we can see the line of press here,
556
00:33:12,782 --> 00:33:16,411
the explosions, we can see Nick Út here,
557
00:33:16,494 --> 00:33:20,331
with his camera bags and the poncho,
558
00:33:20,415 --> 00:33:22,583
his helmet, very obvious,
559
00:33:23,167 --> 00:33:27,547
and he’s always said that
the grandmother came out first,
560
00:33:28,339 --> 00:33:30,758
and this man’s carrying
the second baby.
561
00:33:31,884 --> 00:33:34,262
And then, that’s the image,
562
00:33:34,345 --> 00:33:36,848
and this is the subsequent frame.
563
00:33:37,682 --> 00:33:40,518
Here, this is a picture by Nick Út,
564
00:33:40,601 --> 00:33:44,397
but, interestingly,
it’s taken from the Saigon side,
565
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,109
facing towards all of the smoke,
566
00:33:48,192 --> 00:33:51,237
and then the row of photographers
is turned around,
567
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,448
the children have run past,
568
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,160
and then, you see who we see here?
569
00:33:58,286 --> 00:34:00,371
We can see Nick Út,
570
00:34:00,455 --> 00:34:04,083
but he’s actually not with
the group of media
571
00:34:04,167 --> 00:34:06,169
who have captured the image of Kim Phúc
572
00:34:06,252 --> 00:34:09,881
running up the road,
and are now coming towards…
573
00:34:09,964 --> 00:34:11,549
Towards Saigon, away from the temple.
574
00:34:11,632 --> 00:34:13,134
Yeah, yeah.
575
00:34:14,302 --> 00:34:17,346
- So, if we give this sequencing--
- Yeah.
576
00:34:17,430 --> 00:34:20,600
- to the forensic experts--
- Right.
577
00:34:20,683 --> 00:34:23,019
they should be able to help us in
578
00:34:23,102 --> 00:34:25,021
determining who was the person
579
00:34:25,104 --> 00:34:27,899
who was in the position
to take the photograph.
580
00:34:28,524 --> 00:34:31,027
- With some probability.
- Right.
581
00:34:31,110 --> 00:34:33,321
There's a leading forensic group in Paris,
582
00:34:33,404 --> 00:34:35,573
called INDEX Investigation,
583
00:34:35,656 --> 00:34:37,658
who could look at this for us.
584
00:34:38,409 --> 00:34:39,869
Even if they’re inconclusive,
585
00:34:39,952 --> 00:34:41,496
the fact that you’ve tried
586
00:34:41,579 --> 00:34:43,414
means that you’re honest brokers, right?
587
00:34:51,255 --> 00:34:53,007
When the photograph,
you know, nine months later,
588
00:34:53,091 --> 00:34:54,926
a year later,
when the photograph went on
589
00:34:55,009 --> 00:34:57,345
to win the Pulitzer,
the World Press Photo Award,
590
00:34:57,428 --> 00:34:58,846
the Overseas Press Club Award,
591
00:34:58,930 --> 00:35:00,681
wouldn’t that have been a time
for you to come out,
592
00:35:00,765 --> 00:35:02,225
and tell the truth?
593
00:35:02,308 --> 00:35:04,852
It was all too late by then, I dare say.
594
00:35:04,936 --> 00:35:06,604
We shoved it under the carpet.
595
00:35:07,271 --> 00:35:08,564
We never talked about it.
596
00:35:09,065 --> 00:35:10,066
Why?
597
00:35:10,650 --> 00:35:12,527
Horst Faas was not really the sort of guy
598
00:35:12,610 --> 00:35:14,195
you’d want to argue with.
599
00:35:14,278 --> 00:35:17,824
I wasn’t in a position to
make a fuss about it.
600
00:35:18,449 --> 00:35:20,201
But why wait until Horst was dead?
601
00:35:20,284 --> 00:35:22,537
I don’t think it’s very fair
that I was waiting
602
00:35:22,620 --> 00:35:24,747
until he passed away.
603
00:35:25,832 --> 00:35:27,583
I mean, I have talked about it privately
604
00:35:27,667 --> 00:35:29,669
over the years with people.
605
00:35:31,379 --> 00:35:33,339
Horst Faas was like my superior.
606
00:35:33,422 --> 00:35:37,760
I was just typing the caption "STF slash…"
607
00:35:39,011 --> 00:35:40,888
At Vietnam Old Hacks,
608
00:35:40,972 --> 00:35:43,224
and I reached out to Arnett, to say, look,
609
00:35:43,307 --> 00:35:44,475
I don’t know if you know this story,
610
00:35:44,559 --> 00:35:45,560
but this is what really happened.
611
00:35:45,643 --> 00:35:48,729
It was like I was
pouring out my heart to him.
612
00:35:49,313 --> 00:35:50,731
And I’ve got to hear, you know,
613
00:35:50,815 --> 00:35:53,234
something from Arnett, Peter Arnett,
614
00:35:53,776 --> 00:35:55,903
legendary Pulitzer Prize winning
615
00:35:55,987 --> 00:35:58,239
AP correspondent
from the Vietnam War,
616
00:35:58,322 --> 00:36:01,868
a very close pal of Horst, who says:
617
00:36:01,951 --> 00:36:04,287
“Dear Carl, frankly,
I’m shocked by your story.
618
00:36:04,370 --> 00:36:06,122
You must be aware that the AP,
619
00:36:06,205 --> 00:36:07,748
with all its resources,
620
00:36:07,832 --> 00:36:10,084
and Horst, and his many friends
621
00:36:10,168 --> 00:36:11,711
along with Nick Út himself,
622
00:36:11,794 --> 00:36:13,337
and his Vietnamese associates,
623
00:36:13,421 --> 00:36:15,089
will do everything possible
624
00:36:15,173 --> 00:36:17,884
to discredit you and your assertions,
625
00:36:17,967 --> 00:36:21,220
and challenge all of what you say.”
626
00:36:21,304 --> 00:36:22,930
That’s pretty heavy.
627
00:36:23,014 --> 00:36:25,850
In fact, pretty remarkable from Arnett.
628
00:36:25,933 --> 00:36:28,394
What’s the date on that?
629
00:36:28,477 --> 00:36:30,646
August 5th, 2009.
630
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:36,319
And again, in 2015, on a public forum,
631
00:36:36,402 --> 00:36:37,945
you heard from Arnett.
632
00:36:38,696 --> 00:36:43,284
"The AP Management is well aware
of Robinson's patently false
633
00:36:43,367 --> 00:36:46,204
private claims
made over the past few years.
634
00:36:46,287 --> 00:36:49,040
And will robustly defend
Nick's reputation
635
00:36:49,123 --> 00:36:50,958
based on witness statements
636
00:36:51,042 --> 00:36:54,045
and AP photographic records
of that period
637
00:36:54,128 --> 00:36:56,130
if he decides to go public."
638
00:37:01,093 --> 00:37:04,931
Peter Arnett claims
that senior AP management
639
00:37:05,014 --> 00:37:07,516
are aware of your accusations.
640
00:37:08,309 --> 00:37:09,685
Have they ever reached out to you?
641
00:37:09,769 --> 00:37:12,939
No. They’ve never approached me.
642
00:37:13,022 --> 00:37:16,275
Did you ever think of contacting Nick,
643
00:37:16,359 --> 00:37:19,320
and, you know, addressing this
with him directly?
644
00:37:19,403 --> 00:37:22,406
When Nick retired formally from the AP,
645
00:37:22,490 --> 00:37:24,533
I sent him a personal email,
646
00:37:25,409 --> 00:37:29,497
and said, "Look, you know
that I know the real story here."
647
00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:30,831
You want to just get off the stage
648
00:37:30,915 --> 00:37:33,376
and enjoy your retirement.
649
00:37:33,459 --> 00:37:35,002
But he just kept going…
650
00:37:35,086 --> 00:37:36,545
I think in a Vietnamese way,
651
00:37:36,629 --> 00:37:38,172
he should have just been a lot more
652
00:37:38,256 --> 00:37:40,216
humble about it, humility.
653
00:37:56,774 --> 00:38:00,945
{\an8}Which is better, which is right?
654
00:38:02,113 --> 00:38:05,950
{\an8}The myth that comes with the injustice?
655
00:38:06,575 --> 00:38:09,620
Or poking that myth for truth?
656
00:38:12,707 --> 00:38:17,378
There is a whole side of the story
657
00:38:17,461 --> 00:38:20,381
that is not being recorded,
658
00:38:21,173 --> 00:38:24,302
and that’s the person
who took the picture.
659
00:38:25,803 --> 00:38:29,307
And from the day he took the picture,
660
00:38:29,390 --> 00:38:32,018
was excluded from reality,
661
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,478
and what is that like?
662
00:38:34,562 --> 00:38:38,232
And what is that like
for his wife and children?
663
00:38:39,275 --> 00:38:43,154
That story deserves justice.
664
00:39:00,796 --> 00:39:06,260
{\an8}One of my friends,
he post that thing on the Facebook.
665
00:39:06,844 --> 00:39:09,638
{\an8}First of all, I recognized
the name right away
666
00:39:09,722 --> 00:39:13,642
because Nghệ is my close friend
and co-worker too.
667
00:39:13,726 --> 00:39:18,064
And I read the story,
and I see the picture.
668
00:39:18,814 --> 00:39:25,112
{\an8}I called Nghệ right away, and I said,
"Nghệ, your story come true!"
669
00:39:26,572 --> 00:39:30,951
He said, "Really?
Some people are looking for me?"
670
00:39:31,035 --> 00:39:33,537
So he got very, very excited.
671
00:39:35,414 --> 00:39:40,586
"Oh, my God! People are going
to know the truth very soon."
672
00:39:46,717 --> 00:39:48,761
The only thing we could do was wait.
673
00:39:50,262 --> 00:39:55,643
But about three days later,
three or four days later,
674
00:39:55,726 --> 00:40:00,439
after we posted on Facebook,
while I was sitting at a café,
675
00:40:00,523 --> 00:40:04,693
my phone rang, and I received a call.
676
00:40:07,446 --> 00:40:09,407
I'll always remember this moment,
677
00:40:09,490 --> 00:40:11,617
and I had to ask him to repeat it twice.
678
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:14,870
He said, "Mr. Nghệ just called me.
679
00:40:14,954 --> 00:40:18,457
This is Nghệ.
I'm the one you're looking for."
680
00:40:19,333 --> 00:40:22,628
And after that I took off my glasses,
and put my head down,
681
00:40:22,711 --> 00:40:24,964
and sobbed.
682
00:40:27,883 --> 00:40:30,803
He was only going to be in Vietnam
for one more month.
683
00:40:32,179 --> 00:40:36,100
That's why I felt I had to
leave immediately to meet him.
684
00:41:07,798 --> 00:41:10,092
He had been waiting for us
since early morning
685
00:41:10,176 --> 00:41:12,720
when he learned we would come to visit.
686
00:41:14,930 --> 00:41:17,641
He hadn't eaten anything,
just sat and waited.
687
00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:31,363
So, when I saw him, a real life person
688
00:41:31,447 --> 00:41:35,993
standing in front of me,
an elderly man…
689
00:41:36,076 --> 00:41:40,080
it's difficult to describe
how I felt at that moment.
690
00:41:42,333 --> 00:41:44,335
Which photo was yours?
691
00:41:44,418 --> 00:41:49,715
The one with the naked girl
whose clothes were burned.
692
00:41:50,216 --> 00:41:51,967
The one that won the Pulitzer later on?
693
00:41:52,051 --> 00:41:53,177
That's the one, yes.
694
00:41:53,260 --> 00:41:58,807
Nick Út came with me on that assignment.
But he didn't take that photo.
695
00:41:58,891 --> 00:42:01,644
He just took some pictures from afar.
696
00:42:01,727 --> 00:42:04,063
That photo was mine.
697
00:42:04,146 --> 00:42:06,649
The AP guy accepted the photo
698
00:42:06,732 --> 00:42:12,279
and gave me a print
and the rest of the film.
699
00:42:13,531 --> 00:42:18,410
I gave the rest to a journalist in Saigon.
700
00:42:18,494 --> 00:42:20,788
Who did you sell it to?
701
00:42:20,871 --> 00:42:24,083
The boss. Then the next day
I went back and
702
00:42:24,166 --> 00:42:27,086
he gave me a print -- this big --
703
00:42:27,670 --> 00:42:32,091
and he gave me $20 and said,
"I'll take this photo."
704
00:42:32,675 --> 00:42:38,681
I took the $20 and took the other guys
for a drink. That's it.
705
00:42:43,060 --> 00:42:47,064
Normally when a news agency
bought photos from you,
706
00:42:47,147 --> 00:42:52,570
did they credit your name
when publishing them?
707
00:42:52,653 --> 00:42:57,783
No, rarely.
Only on some special occasions.
708
00:42:57,866 --> 00:43:03,581
Normally after I get back from a shoot,
I would just give them all the film.
709
00:43:03,664 --> 00:43:07,751
They do what they do,
and I wouldn't question them.
710
00:43:11,088 --> 00:43:14,592
After meeting Nghệ, I felt incredible joy.
711
00:43:22,308 --> 00:43:24,018
I wake up one morning
712
00:43:24,101 --> 00:43:26,687
and I see the news on WhatsApp.
713
00:43:28,564 --> 00:43:31,358
We’ve got an iPhone recording of Nghệ,
714
00:43:31,442 --> 00:43:32,985
and it is indeed him
715
00:43:33,068 --> 00:43:35,529
that takes the photograph.
716
00:43:36,864 --> 00:43:38,490
Incredible news.
717
00:43:39,575 --> 00:43:45,039
We shared our search for Nghệ
with his daughter.
718
00:44:05,893 --> 00:44:08,771
I called him, I said,
"What’s up, Dad?"
719
00:44:08,854 --> 00:44:10,439
He said, "Guess what?
720
00:44:11,106 --> 00:44:13,859
You won’t believe,
somebody’s looking for me.
721
00:44:13,942 --> 00:44:17,780
They knew about my picture," he said.
722
00:44:17,863 --> 00:44:19,448
"I went to lunch with them,
723
00:44:19,531 --> 00:44:22,284
they told me they want to do the story.
724
00:44:22,368 --> 00:44:24,662
They know about me and everything.
725
00:44:25,287 --> 00:44:26,705
Would you believe that?"
726
00:44:33,170 --> 00:44:35,297
What happened afterwards
727
00:44:35,381 --> 00:44:38,008
was very strange and unbelievable.
728
00:44:38,092 --> 00:44:43,305
I texted Mr. Nghệ to see
how he was and keep in touch,
729
00:44:43,389 --> 00:44:49,978
but I didn't get a reply for
a whole night and the next morning.
730
00:44:50,062 --> 00:44:53,273
The next day I tried to reach him again.
731
00:44:53,357 --> 00:44:59,154
I called all night and all morning,
but I still didn't get a reply.
732
00:45:01,615 --> 00:45:04,410
I call again, but he didn’t answer.
733
00:45:04,493 --> 00:45:07,037
I kept calling, calling, calling.
734
00:45:07,913 --> 00:45:11,208
So, the next afternoon I called again.
735
00:45:13,669 --> 00:45:17,631
Mr. Nghệ's friend answered the phone
736
00:45:17,715 --> 00:45:22,261
and told me he just had a stroke.
737
00:45:24,138 --> 00:45:30,018
She said he might go into a coma, and
his condition was serious. Very serious.
738
00:45:33,856 --> 00:45:36,358
It made me so emotional
739
00:45:36,442 --> 00:45:41,405
thinking of him lying in the hospital,
740
00:45:41,488 --> 00:45:45,576
with life and death so precarious.
741
00:45:45,659 --> 00:45:49,288
I remembered something he told me:
742
00:45:49,371 --> 00:45:54,168
"If I don't have any evidence,
then I'm zero,
743
00:45:54,251 --> 00:45:58,505
while the other person is a hero."
744
00:46:04,344 --> 00:46:05,596
My father,
745
00:46:07,181 --> 00:46:11,143
he was born by the mistress
of my grandfather.
746
00:46:12,978 --> 00:46:14,897
They didn’t want him,
747
00:46:14,980 --> 00:46:17,566
so, they gave him away to the family
748
00:46:18,275 --> 00:46:20,319
who worked for my grandparents,
749
00:46:20,402 --> 00:46:22,446
who loved him very much.
750
00:46:23,572 --> 00:46:28,035
My dad left the village,
and he went to Saigon.
751
00:46:29,161 --> 00:46:32,915
So, he enrolled himself
into the photography school.
752
00:46:34,124 --> 00:46:36,293
That’s where he met my mom.
753
00:46:37,085 --> 00:46:40,714
She was a hairdresser just next door.
754
00:46:41,173 --> 00:46:44,510
So, they got married,
and then they had three of us.
755
00:46:47,095 --> 00:46:51,225
He joined the army,
but he just takes the picture.
756
00:46:51,308 --> 00:46:55,145
The army sent him to the U.S. to study,
757
00:46:55,229 --> 00:46:58,190
and that’s where he got the certificate.
758
00:47:00,984 --> 00:47:04,071
{\an8}They promoted me to Lieutenant because
759
00:47:04,154 --> 00:47:10,118
I had that certificate
from the Psy-Ops Bureau.
760
00:47:11,245 --> 00:47:16,500
I worked in the film department
for news gathering.
761
00:47:18,377 --> 00:47:22,172
When in 1975 did you emigrate to the U.S.?
762
00:47:22,756 --> 00:47:27,177
One month before the North arrived.
763
00:47:27,803 --> 00:47:29,721
Because I worked for the U.S. Embassy,
764
00:47:30,848 --> 00:47:34,393
they prioritized the people
who were in charge of important jobs.
765
00:47:36,144 --> 00:47:40,148
I remember very clearly my dad,
766
00:47:40,232 --> 00:47:43,735
he just like, "You have to get ready,
767
00:47:43,819 --> 00:47:45,320
we are leaving."
768
00:47:46,154 --> 00:47:50,033
They make the announcement
that you are not on vacation,
769
00:47:50,117 --> 00:47:52,369
you are leaving your country.
770
00:48:02,087 --> 00:48:04,464
So, that’s how we got here.
771
00:48:19,104 --> 00:48:22,858
Hi, Gary, how are you?
Very nice to meet you.
772
00:48:22,941 --> 00:48:26,111
Fantastic to see you.
You look great. How are you?
773
00:48:26,194 --> 00:48:28,030
Okay, I’m okay. How are you?
774
00:48:28,113 --> 00:48:31,450
I’m very good, very happy to
see you in good shape.
775
00:48:31,533 --> 00:48:35,078
Fantastic. Shall we head in?
776
00:48:35,162 --> 00:48:36,538
- Yeah.
- After you, man.
777
00:48:37,122 --> 00:48:40,334
- You look really wonderful.
- Thank you, thank you very much.
778
00:48:40,417 --> 00:48:42,836
Come on, Gary.
779
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:47,466
I wonder if we could take you
back to the war.
780
00:48:48,091 --> 00:48:51,511
On June the 8th, 1972,
781
00:48:51,595 --> 00:48:54,014
could you talk me through a little bit
782
00:48:54,097 --> 00:48:57,142
what you did that day, and why?
783
00:48:57,225 --> 00:48:59,436
Well, there’s a channel,
784
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:04,107
I don’t know which,
but they called me to go film.
785
00:49:04,191 --> 00:49:08,737
Because they said the Việt Cộng
have come to Trảng Bàng already.
786
00:49:08,820 --> 00:49:11,114
They’re in a temple in Trảng Bàng.
787
00:49:11,949 --> 00:49:18,497
They didn’t have a driver.
So I said, “I’m a driver too.”
788
00:49:18,580 --> 00:49:21,583
Then I rented a car and I drove there.
789
00:49:22,084 --> 00:49:29,049
When I got there,
I saw planes flying overhead,
790
00:49:29,883 --> 00:49:32,594
indicating that there was
going to be trouble.
791
00:49:33,178 --> 00:49:36,139
I called a few guys over and said,
792
00:49:36,223 --> 00:49:38,350
“You’re going to have work to do.”
793
00:49:38,433 --> 00:49:42,479
I thought civilians were hiding there.
794
00:49:42,562 --> 00:49:45,941
Then the planes dropped two bombs.
795
00:49:46,024 --> 00:49:48,902
Since that is the main road,
they have to run out that way;
796
00:49:48,986 --> 00:49:52,155
there's nowhere else to run.
797
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,282
I prepared everything in advance.
798
00:49:54,366 --> 00:50:01,123
I saw the photo in that moment
and just took it.
799
00:50:01,206 --> 00:50:04,418
And I managed to capture that moment,
800
00:50:04,501 --> 00:50:08,088
and I knew I got the money shot.
801
00:50:08,672 --> 00:50:12,467
So, Nghệ, is this the kind of camera
802
00:50:12,551 --> 00:50:14,302
you were using that day?
803
00:50:14,386 --> 00:50:18,223
Yes, that's the camera. It was a Pentax.
804
00:50:18,306 --> 00:50:19,975
Yes, a 50 mm lens.
805
00:50:20,058 --> 00:50:21,685
Normal.
806
00:50:23,729 --> 00:50:27,024
When did you see that picture again?
807
00:50:28,358 --> 00:50:31,778
After I sold the photo,
about six or seven months later.
808
00:50:32,362 --> 00:50:35,282
Someone inside AP told me,
809
00:50:36,158 --> 00:50:39,119
"Your photo went to the U.S.
810
00:50:39,619 --> 00:50:42,330
It has won awards.
811
00:50:42,414 --> 00:50:47,127
Do you want to file a complaint?"
812
00:50:48,086 --> 00:50:53,633
I looked back and thought,
I don’t have any proof of it.
813
00:50:53,717 --> 00:50:58,555
Let me go home and check.
814
00:50:59,056 --> 00:51:05,479
And I saw that my wife had ripped up the
print the guy gave me and threw it away.
815
00:51:05,562 --> 00:51:08,607
Nghệ, did you think that
that was a mistake at the time,
816
00:51:08,690 --> 00:51:11,651
how the names had been changed
on the photograph?
817
00:51:11,735 --> 00:51:14,279
Did you think it was done
on purpose?
818
00:51:14,362 --> 00:51:16,531
No, intentional.
819
00:51:16,615 --> 00:51:18,408
I knew it right away.
820
00:51:18,492 --> 00:51:20,118
It's my profession, I knew.
821
00:51:20,744 --> 00:51:26,750
On that day,
Út was the only one who was staff for AP.
822
00:51:26,833 --> 00:51:30,378
So the AP guy credited that photo to Út.
823
00:51:31,463 --> 00:51:33,381
Have you ever seen him since,
824
00:51:33,423 --> 00:51:35,050
and discussed this with him?
825
00:51:35,133 --> 00:51:39,429
I've met him, but I didn't greet him,
and he didn't greet me either.
826
00:51:40,806 --> 00:51:42,974
I felt upset.
827
00:51:43,058 --> 00:51:48,939
I worked hard for it,
but that guy got to have it all.
828
00:51:49,022 --> 00:51:52,526
He got the recognition. He got awards.
829
00:51:52,609 --> 00:51:55,654
He was celebrated in Vietnam.
830
00:52:00,242 --> 00:52:04,538
I remember on that day
my dad came home.
831
00:52:05,205 --> 00:52:10,127
He sat down, and he pulled
from his pocket the film,
832
00:52:11,044 --> 00:52:13,046
and he threw it over here and say,
833
00:52:13,130 --> 00:52:15,423
“Oh, I sold this today,”
834
00:52:16,383 --> 00:52:20,971
and he just threw that picture
on the fridge.
835
00:52:23,473 --> 00:52:26,893
After my dad left,
I and my younger brother,
836
00:52:27,644 --> 00:52:31,565
we tiptoed and
we flipped it back, you know,
837
00:52:31,648 --> 00:52:33,275
and my brother, the younger one,
838
00:52:33,358 --> 00:52:35,861
he’s the one who did it first,
and he put it back.
839
00:52:36,778 --> 00:52:39,614
And he’s like silently,
"Don’t say anything."
840
00:52:41,199 --> 00:52:44,911
And I’m like, oh, I’ve got to
see it, right?
841
00:52:44,995 --> 00:52:47,205
So I did the same thing,
842
00:52:47,289 --> 00:52:48,790
and I put it back right away.
843
00:52:49,291 --> 00:52:50,959
Then we both looked at each other.
844
00:52:52,085 --> 00:52:54,713
We were so much in shock,
845
00:52:54,796 --> 00:52:57,299
like, she’s about my age.
846
00:52:58,550 --> 00:53:00,552
And why is she naked?
847
00:53:00,635 --> 00:53:02,554
And why is she screaming?
848
00:53:04,723 --> 00:53:08,143
Then when my mom was cleaning,
849
00:53:08,226 --> 00:53:10,937
she were like, mumbling to herself,
850
00:53:11,021 --> 00:53:15,567
like, "Why did your dad bring
this kind of picture into the house?"
851
00:53:16,318 --> 00:53:21,323
Tore it up, and threw it
in the trash bin immediately.
852
00:53:23,283 --> 00:53:29,164
Remember, my mom was
the traditional Vietnamese lady.
853
00:53:30,916 --> 00:53:34,294
After that, my dad was panicked.
854
00:53:35,170 --> 00:53:37,005
He was saying, "See?
855
00:53:37,088 --> 00:53:39,966
If you didn’t throw it away,
856
00:53:40,467 --> 00:53:43,720
look, I can have something to prove it."
857
00:53:47,766 --> 00:53:53,521
On and on, on and on,
until they got divorced.
858
00:53:58,401 --> 00:54:00,237
Gary, would you like something to eat?
859
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,281
Sure. That’s fantastic, thank you.
860
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:05,533
When were you born, Anthony?
861
00:54:05,617 --> 00:54:07,577
- I was born in 1961.
- ’61?
862
00:54:07,661 --> 00:54:08,828
- Yeah.
- Right, right.
863
00:54:08,912 --> 00:54:11,665
So, your whole childhood
was during the war, right?
864
00:54:11,748 --> 00:54:12,874
Yeah, yeah, the whole time.
865
00:54:13,625 --> 00:54:16,461
So, did you spend much time
with Nghệ during the war?
866
00:54:16,544 --> 00:54:18,797
- He was working, right?
- Yeah, but he always came back
867
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,298
so I can wash his car.
868
00:54:20,423 --> 00:54:22,217
I'm the one washing my car.
869
00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:23,385
Washed your dad’s car.
870
00:54:23,969 --> 00:54:27,055
Anthony, we’ve been talking
about the photograph
871
00:54:27,138 --> 00:54:28,890
that your father took.
872
00:54:28,974 --> 00:54:32,269
How do you feel
when you see that photograph?
873
00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:34,437
Every time I see that picture,
874
00:54:34,521 --> 00:54:36,356
I say, "Oh, that,
my dad took the picture."
875
00:54:36,439 --> 00:54:37,565
That’s about it.
876
00:54:37,649 --> 00:54:40,402
But, him, it’s another story, though.
877
00:54:41,444 --> 00:54:44,239
He always have like
something here, man,
878
00:54:44,322 --> 00:54:46,324
why nobody noted me?
879
00:54:46,408 --> 00:54:47,951
It’s me, I’m the one taking the picture.
880
00:54:48,034 --> 00:54:49,869
- That's what…
- I’m sorry.
881
00:54:50,829 --> 00:54:51,955
Are you okay?
882
00:54:52,455 --> 00:54:56,584
No. I’m sorry.
883
00:54:56,668 --> 00:54:58,295
Well, you know,
it’s kind of like a losing battle.
884
00:54:58,378 --> 00:55:00,547
And I think he’s tried to put
that in the back of his mind,
885
00:55:00,630 --> 00:55:02,382
{\an8}to like, okay…
886
00:55:02,882 --> 00:55:07,262
{\an8}you know, because there is
no help, no recourse.
887
00:55:07,804 --> 00:55:11,391
I cannot understand, for the life of me,
888
00:55:11,474 --> 00:55:14,060
why they would give Nghệ
889
00:55:14,144 --> 00:55:17,981
a print of a photograph that he made,
890
00:55:18,064 --> 00:55:20,608
they would give him proof that
he made this photograph.
891
00:55:20,692 --> 00:55:22,694
- Yes.
- To give him the proof
892
00:55:22,777 --> 00:55:24,779
of something that you’ve taken from him,
893
00:55:24,863 --> 00:55:27,157
- it’s a very strange act.
- Yeah.
894
00:55:27,866 --> 00:55:32,037
For me, fundamentally,
you know, there is an injustice,
895
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,289
just a general injustice here.
896
00:55:34,372 --> 00:55:35,582
I don’t think they would have done that
897
00:55:35,665 --> 00:55:36,875
to a Western photographer,
898
00:55:36,958 --> 00:55:38,084
an American, a Frenchman,
899
00:55:38,168 --> 00:55:39,669
- or an Englishman.
- Yes.
900
00:55:39,753 --> 00:55:43,423
So, I think your father has
really been taken advantage of,
901
00:55:44,132 --> 00:55:46,760
as many photographers,
902
00:55:46,843 --> 00:55:50,388
and many freelance journalists
from majority world countries,
903
00:55:50,472 --> 00:55:53,641
from the global south,
have been taken advantage of
904
00:55:53,725 --> 00:55:55,727
before and since.
905
00:55:55,810 --> 00:56:00,023
And I think that needs to be
addressed, actually.
906
00:56:00,106 --> 00:56:04,152
Yeah. You know what,
I keep thinking about it.
907
00:56:04,235 --> 00:56:05,570
A lot of people know that
he’s the one
908
00:56:05,653 --> 00:56:06,863
who took the picture.
909
00:56:07,697 --> 00:56:09,240
I know my uncle,
910
00:56:09,824 --> 00:56:11,117
my auntie,
911
00:56:11,201 --> 00:56:14,037
all his fam that work for CBS, NBC,
912
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:15,872
everybody knows.
913
00:56:16,456 --> 00:56:20,293
Why nobody have gut to say
something about it?
914
00:56:21,044 --> 00:56:23,588
So, what would be a good
resolution for you now?
915
00:56:23,671 --> 00:56:25,882
I want AP to tell
916
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:28,218
the true story,
917
00:56:28,301 --> 00:56:30,261
the story of my dad.
918
00:57:09,008 --> 00:57:12,804
Dad and I, we talk about it many times.
919
00:57:14,097 --> 00:57:17,016
If only the person
920
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:19,394
who did what he did
921
00:57:19,978 --> 00:57:22,105
would make a confession,
922
00:57:22,730 --> 00:57:25,817
then everybody would know.
923
00:57:27,193 --> 00:57:29,612
But other than that, that…
924
00:57:30,613 --> 00:57:32,073
is not going to happen.
925
00:57:33,241 --> 00:57:34,784
Impossible.
926
00:57:37,829 --> 00:57:40,665
My dad is getting older.
927
00:57:42,041 --> 00:57:44,335
Like an angel on earth
928
00:57:44,419 --> 00:57:46,629
is knocking on my dad's door,
929
00:57:46,713 --> 00:57:48,923
and tell him this is the time
930
00:57:49,048 --> 00:57:51,593
I’m going to tell the truth for you.
931
00:57:58,516 --> 00:58:01,102
You know, when we spoke to Nghệ,
932
00:58:01,853 --> 00:58:05,356
what we discovered is that nobody
933
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:06,858
has reached out to him.
934
00:58:06,941 --> 00:58:08,902
He hasn’t spoken to anyone.
935
00:58:09,694 --> 00:58:11,571
His story hasn’t been influenced
936
00:58:11,654 --> 00:58:13,823
by anyone on the outside.
937
00:58:13,907 --> 00:58:16,117
He has lived a quiet, humble life,
938
00:58:16,659 --> 00:58:18,161
in perfect isolation
939
00:58:18,244 --> 00:58:20,497
in California with his family.
940
00:58:24,667 --> 00:58:27,253
This is a man who’s spent his entire life
941
00:58:27,337 --> 00:58:29,506
in the photographic and film industry,
942
00:58:31,799 --> 00:58:33,468
{\an8}had trained as a cinematographer.
943
00:58:36,429 --> 00:58:41,976
So, on that day,
Nghệ is the most accomplished,
944
00:58:42,060 --> 00:58:44,145
highly trained war photographer
945
00:58:44,229 --> 00:58:45,688
standing on that road.
946
00:59:07,627 --> 00:59:11,172
- Hi, Gary! How are you?
- Lovely to see you.
947
00:59:11,256 --> 00:59:13,883
I would like you to meet my uncle.
948
00:59:13,967 --> 00:59:16,719
Very nice to meet you, Thân,
very nice to meet you.
949
00:59:16,803 --> 00:59:19,097
{\an8}Thank you very much,
very nice to meet you, Sir.
950
00:59:19,180 --> 00:59:22,308
{\an8}I used to be a soundman
for NBC News.
951
00:59:22,392 --> 00:59:24,602
{\an8}- That’s right.
- Yeah, for many years.
952
00:59:25,186 --> 00:59:26,604
And when did you retire?
953
00:59:26,688 --> 00:59:31,234
I retired when I was 63, but now I am 92.
954
00:59:31,317 --> 00:59:34,404
- That’s pretty incredible.
- Yeah, thank you.
955
00:59:34,487 --> 00:59:37,782
So when you were filming
this scene here,
956
00:59:37,865 --> 00:59:40,493
this is the famous photograph here,
957
00:59:40,577 --> 00:59:42,078
who was with you on the road?
958
00:59:42,161 --> 00:59:43,788
Yeah, in the middle of the road,
959
00:59:43,871 --> 00:59:47,292
and the girl was coming to us.
960
00:59:47,375 --> 00:59:49,836
I was
in the middle holding the microphone.
961
00:59:49,919 --> 00:59:53,548
And Nguyễn Thành Nghệ was on my
left side taking a picture of that girl.
962
00:59:54,048 --> 00:59:56,968
Was Nick Út there at that time?
963
00:59:57,051 --> 00:59:58,761
- No.
- Oh, okay.
964
00:59:58,845 --> 01:00:02,682
So, when you left Trảng Bàng,
you drove back to Saigon?
965
01:00:02,765 --> 01:00:04,892
- Saigon.
- And what did you do next?
966
01:00:06,102 --> 01:00:09,647
After filming, I told Mr. Nguyen Than Nghệ
967
01:00:09,731 --> 01:00:14,319
that the AP office was next to mine.
968
01:00:14,402 --> 01:00:17,780
The buyer of the film was Mr. Horst Faas.
969
01:00:17,864 --> 01:00:22,702
I don't know how to spell his name in
English, but people called him Horst Faas.
970
01:00:22,785 --> 01:00:27,665
After developing the film,
he cut off the one of the burned girl,
971
01:00:27,749 --> 01:00:31,419
set it aside, and said,
"I'll buy this film."
972
01:00:31,502 --> 01:00:37,592
He also gave me an enlargement
of the burned girl. 8 x 10 inch.
973
01:00:37,675 --> 01:00:40,553
So, Thân, when you found out
974
01:00:40,637 --> 01:00:44,641
that they had given
the photograph to Nick Út,
975
01:00:44,724 --> 01:00:47,518
did you say anything to anybody
at that time?
976
01:00:47,602 --> 01:00:50,730
I didn’t say anything, because…
977
01:00:54,442 --> 01:00:55,818
nobody…
978
01:00:57,862 --> 01:00:58,905
care.
979
01:01:00,114 --> 01:01:02,825
And also I am an employee,
980
01:01:03,451 --> 01:01:05,578
I need money
981
01:01:06,621 --> 01:01:08,581
for my family living,
982
01:01:09,832 --> 01:01:12,752
and I don’t want any trouble.
983
01:01:13,378 --> 01:01:18,633
But I understand,
the bureau chief of AP,
984
01:01:18,716 --> 01:01:21,803
and my bureau chief,
NBC News bureau chief,
985
01:01:21,886 --> 01:01:23,888
they are close friends.
986
01:01:23,971 --> 01:01:25,807
I cannot open my mouth.
987
01:01:26,641 --> 01:01:28,226
If I get fired,
988
01:01:28,810 --> 01:01:31,270
how can my family live?
989
01:01:31,354 --> 01:01:33,439
I have to keep my mouth shut
990
01:01:34,482 --> 01:01:36,818
for more than 50 years.
991
01:01:36,901 --> 01:01:39,195
My conscience is not at peace.
992
01:01:39,278 --> 01:01:43,491
Every time I think about it,
I can't eat or sleep well.
993
01:01:43,574 --> 01:01:46,119
I'm reliving that moment
from 50 years ago.
994
01:01:46,202 --> 01:01:47,453
On that day,
995
01:01:48,037 --> 01:01:51,749
the truth that I suppressed inside,
996
01:01:51,833 --> 01:01:53,751
deceiving myself,
997
01:01:54,252 --> 01:01:56,045
left me feeling unrest.
998
01:02:17,442 --> 01:02:19,444
Requiem, an exhibition that honored
999
01:02:19,527 --> 01:02:21,904
all the photographers from Vietnam
and overseas
1000
01:02:21,988 --> 01:02:24,157
who had died during the war.
1001
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:26,325
It was an act of remembrance.
1002
01:02:28,870 --> 01:02:31,956
Horst was really the driving
force behind that project.
1003
01:02:33,458 --> 01:02:36,127
I knew Horst, he was complex,
1004
01:02:36,210 --> 01:02:39,547
a paradox, tough, competitive,
1005
01:02:40,298 --> 01:02:42,633
and yet capable of great compassion.
1006
01:02:44,510 --> 01:02:46,304
Út’s brother, Huynh Thanh My,
1007
01:02:46,387 --> 01:02:49,432
was one of those killed
while working for the AP.
1008
01:02:50,391 --> 01:02:52,852
Horst had been responsible
for hiring Nick,
1009
01:02:52,935 --> 01:02:55,772
to ensure that the family
had some income.
1010
01:03:02,361 --> 01:03:04,989
Do you know why Horst
would have
1011
01:03:05,072 --> 01:03:08,117
made the decision to add
1012
01:03:08,201 --> 01:03:10,119
Nick Út’s name to the caption?
1013
01:03:10,203 --> 01:03:12,121
Horst was torn up by My’s death,
1014
01:03:12,205 --> 01:03:14,624
and I thought this was his way of
1015
01:03:14,707 --> 01:03:16,125
paying a tribute to him.
1016
01:03:16,209 --> 01:03:19,212
I can understand how Horst
would have felt bad
1017
01:03:19,295 --> 01:03:21,172
about that his whole life,
about what happened.
1018
01:03:21,255 --> 01:03:22,965
Right? He sent him on that assignment.
1019
01:03:26,761 --> 01:03:32,308
Was it normal for stringers
to be given prints of the images
1020
01:03:32,391 --> 01:03:34,143
that AP bought from them?
1021
01:03:34,769 --> 01:03:36,395
Yeah, that was fairly common, yes.
1022
01:03:36,479 --> 01:03:39,732
If we had an extra print or two,
and like in this case, we had several.
1023
01:03:39,816 --> 01:03:41,609
There's something a little
troubling for me, though,
1024
01:03:41,692 --> 01:03:45,488
that if AP had taken
1025
01:03:45,571 --> 01:03:48,366
the photograph from the stringer,
1026
01:03:48,866 --> 01:03:50,576
put somebody else’s name on it,
1027
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:54,664
why would they have given him a print,
ergo evidence,
1028
01:03:55,164 --> 01:03:56,165
of the same image?
1029
01:03:56,249 --> 01:03:58,459
Well, that would have been Horst
who did all that,
1030
01:03:58,543 --> 01:04:01,045
but that was very unusual,
1031
01:04:01,128 --> 01:04:04,298
I must say, especially
after the byline switch on it.
1032
01:04:04,340 --> 01:04:05,591
Unusual, or maybe he was just
1033
01:04:05,675 --> 01:04:07,760
confident that Nghệ would
never say anything?
1034
01:04:07,844 --> 01:04:11,764
Exactly.
Faas was nothing if not confident.
1035
01:04:17,144 --> 01:04:19,438
We finally heard back from Võ Sửu
1036
01:04:20,231 --> 01:04:22,066
He and his brother, Win,
were cameramen
1037
01:04:22,149 --> 01:04:23,860
for the U.S. networks,
1038
01:04:23,943 --> 01:04:26,320
filmed some of the iconic
footage from the war.
1039
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,115
Vo Suu wasn’t in Trảng Bàng,
1040
01:04:29,198 --> 01:04:31,742
but he well understood the world
of the freelancer.
1041
01:04:33,077 --> 01:04:35,788
If you were a freelance military reporter
1042
01:04:35,872 --> 01:04:41,085
and you went out and took pictures,
1043
01:04:41,168 --> 01:04:44,505
you would then submit them to AP.
1044
01:04:44,589 --> 01:04:49,927
Especially those in the military,
they were poor, you understand.
1045
01:04:50,469 --> 01:04:54,807
They just gave them the photos
to earn a little money
1046
01:04:54,891 --> 01:04:58,019
fame was not important.
1047
01:04:59,103 --> 01:05:03,399
This means
they didn't go to AP to claim that picture
1048
01:05:03,900 --> 01:05:08,029
because they thought once they were paid,
that picture belonged to AP?
1049
01:05:08,529 --> 01:05:13,576
Yes, that's AP's policy.
1050
01:05:14,660 --> 01:05:20,958
So, there could be many pictures
taken by other people,
1051
01:05:21,042 --> 01:05:23,294
that happened.
1052
01:05:24,629 --> 01:05:27,965
I think when it comes to Nick Út's photo,
1053
01:05:28,049 --> 01:05:33,387
determining the real author
is very difficult.
1054
01:05:33,971 --> 01:05:36,807
Nick Út must know whether
he really took it or not.
1055
01:05:41,604 --> 01:05:44,523
We obtained an internal document from AP.
1056
01:05:45,107 --> 01:05:47,568
Horst explains how difficult it was
1057
01:05:47,652 --> 01:05:51,238
to get the New York office to place
Vietnamese names on their photo.
1058
01:05:51,989 --> 01:05:53,115
He says,
1059
01:05:53,199 --> 01:05:55,993
{\an8}“Vietnamese names were
ridiculed by the Americans.
1060
01:05:56,077 --> 01:05:57,870
{\an8}If they weren’t called slants,
1061
01:05:57,954 --> 01:06:01,499
{\an8}they were not taken seriously,
because they had funny names.
1062
01:06:02,124 --> 01:06:03,459
So, there was a reluctance here
1063
01:06:03,542 --> 01:06:06,420
to credit the Vietnamese
what was due to them.”
1064
01:07:02,852 --> 01:07:05,187
Hi, thank you for taking the call.
1065
01:07:05,271 --> 01:07:07,481
{\an8}We are reporting allegations
1066
01:07:07,565 --> 01:07:12,403
{\an8}that Nick Út is not the author of
1067
01:07:12,486 --> 01:07:15,239
the famous Pulitzer Prize
winning photograph.
1068
01:07:15,322 --> 01:07:17,992
I’d sort of love to
collaborate with AP, right?
1069
01:07:18,075 --> 01:07:20,286
I’d like to involve you
in this investigation,
1070
01:07:20,369 --> 01:07:21,912
if we’re allowed into the archive,
1071
01:07:21,996 --> 01:07:23,956
and share information with you.
1072
01:07:26,500 --> 01:07:27,960
Yeah…
1073
01:07:28,919 --> 01:07:31,255
But also I just want to press upon AP,
1074
01:07:31,338 --> 01:07:34,050
if I may, other former AP employees,
1075
01:07:34,133 --> 01:07:35,634
not the whistleblower, obviously,
1076
01:07:35,718 --> 01:07:38,054
have used AP’s name
1077
01:07:38,137 --> 01:07:40,639
to suppress the information,
1078
01:07:40,723 --> 01:07:43,225
and then they’ve said that AP management
1079
01:07:43,309 --> 01:07:45,186
are aware of the allegations,
and will discredit
1080
01:07:45,269 --> 01:07:46,187
the whistleblower.
1081
01:07:47,271 --> 01:07:48,230
Yeah…
1082
01:07:51,275 --> 01:07:54,153
Thanks, and take care.
Thank you.
1083
01:07:56,030 --> 01:07:58,574
She was just trying to find out
a little bit of what we know.
1084
01:07:58,657 --> 01:08:00,993
And she was pretty open. She
said, "Look, I have to go back
1085
01:08:01,827 --> 01:08:03,079
and report this.
1086
01:08:03,162 --> 01:08:04,538
Uh, and we'll be in touch."
1087
01:08:04,622 --> 01:08:06,373
But there was nothing defensive at all.
1088
01:08:06,457 --> 01:08:08,000
They were very, very open.
1089
01:08:08,084 --> 01:08:09,919
Yeah. Just wait and see.
1090
01:08:16,967 --> 01:08:19,720
Since Carl first told you
about this story,
1091
01:08:19,804 --> 01:08:22,014
he’s subsequently written a book
1092
01:08:22,098 --> 01:08:23,599
where he didn’t mention this at all.
1093
01:08:23,682 --> 01:08:27,019
Yeah. My response was very clear…
1094
01:08:27,603 --> 01:08:30,397
Carl, you’ve got to tell the story.
1095
01:08:30,481 --> 01:08:32,983
You’ve got to tell the truth.
1096
01:08:33,067 --> 01:08:35,027
Was he honest with you
and did he say, in the end,
1097
01:08:35,111 --> 01:08:36,570
look, I don’t have
the strength, or whatever?
1098
01:08:36,654 --> 01:08:38,197
What did he say to you?
1099
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:40,491
First of all, he said,
"I won’t be believed.
1100
01:08:40,574 --> 01:08:43,244
Horst Faas is dead."
1101
01:08:43,327 --> 01:08:45,246
He said, "It’s too easy,
they’ll always say,
1102
01:08:45,329 --> 01:08:48,415
why did you wait?
You’re an opportunist."
1103
01:08:48,499 --> 01:08:50,334
And he lined up all the reasons,
1104
01:08:50,417 --> 01:08:53,295
and I don’t know that any one
of the reasons was enough.
1105
01:08:53,379 --> 01:08:54,588
It wasn’t enough for me.
1106
01:08:54,672 --> 01:08:56,924
I just kept pushing him to do it.
1107
01:08:57,007 --> 01:09:00,302
And he would send me drafts
of the true story,
1108
01:09:00,386 --> 01:09:02,638
and say, "I want you to see this,"
1109
01:09:02,721 --> 01:09:05,599
and then I’d say,
"This is the story you need to tell,"
1110
01:09:05,683 --> 01:09:08,185
and then I got the final book,
1111
01:09:08,727 --> 01:09:10,187
and it wasn’t in there.
1112
01:09:10,271 --> 01:09:12,439
I said, "You’re not being honest again.
1113
01:09:12,523 --> 01:09:14,191
You’re still not telling the truth."
1114
01:09:14,275 --> 01:09:17,820
And so he sends me this email
on January 20th, 2018.
1115
01:09:17,903 --> 01:09:21,323
“Dear Tom, shit, man.
1116
01:09:22,032 --> 01:09:24,201
It would have been better
if you’d just agreed
1117
01:09:24,285 --> 01:09:27,246
with how I revised
the damn Nick Út stuff.
1118
01:09:27,329 --> 01:09:31,625
I am haunted by
this entire fucking story.
1119
01:09:31,709 --> 01:09:33,460
I fucking hate it.
1120
01:09:33,544 --> 01:09:36,380
How many times, how many,
1121
01:09:36,463 --> 01:09:38,424
am I going to keep this going
1122
01:09:38,507 --> 01:09:42,011
to a climactic and very public finale,
1123
01:09:42,094 --> 01:09:45,055
as a one-day wonder in the New York Times,
1124
01:09:45,139 --> 01:09:49,602
pissing off almost every one
of my erstwhile colleagues,
1125
01:09:49,685 --> 01:09:51,854
most of whom, let’s face it, I loathed,
1126
01:09:51,937 --> 01:09:54,273
and with whom I never truly fit in,
1127
01:09:54,356 --> 01:09:57,693
me, just a local hire off-the-street guy,
1128
01:09:57,776 --> 01:10:00,070
just a bloody photo editor,
1129
01:10:00,154 --> 01:10:05,075
like I’m just asking
for a good hiding here, is that it?”
1130
01:10:05,159 --> 01:10:07,703
This is a tormented Carl,
1131
01:10:07,786 --> 01:10:09,371
with this demon inside
1132
01:10:09,455 --> 01:10:12,041
that he’s trying to release and can’t,
1133
01:10:12,124 --> 01:10:15,044
and he’s pissed at me
for not letting up,
1134
01:10:15,669 --> 01:10:19,381
and I tried, but he’s a friend.
1135
01:10:19,423 --> 01:10:22,426
Carl has nothing to gain
from telling this story.
1136
01:10:22,509 --> 01:10:24,970
He has everything to lose, in fact.
1137
01:10:25,054 --> 01:10:26,347
I think that’s…
1138
01:10:27,306 --> 01:10:31,727
it makes him
a very genuine source, actually.
1139
01:10:35,189 --> 01:10:38,692
I can’t imagine someone making up a story
1140
01:10:38,776 --> 01:10:41,070
that would…
1141
01:10:41,153 --> 01:10:44,865
haunt him for the rest of his life.
1142
01:10:47,534 --> 01:10:50,329
He’s trying to expel this
1143
01:10:50,412 --> 01:10:53,165
by wrestling with the truth.
1144
01:10:56,627 --> 01:10:59,713
It’s a strong, compelling darkness.
1145
01:11:08,639 --> 01:11:10,140
We get this horrible news
1146
01:11:10,224 --> 01:11:11,976
that Nghệ's come down with a stroke.
1147
01:11:12,059 --> 01:11:13,936
We didn't know what to do.
1148
01:11:16,272 --> 01:11:20,401
I just wanted to meet him,
and say I am sorry.
1149
01:11:21,568 --> 01:11:23,696
That’s something I personally had to do.
1150
01:11:29,868 --> 01:11:31,120
Hello, Nghệ.
1151
01:11:32,121 --> 01:11:33,664
How are you?
1152
01:11:34,957 --> 01:11:40,087
I feel bad that we stole
your name, right?
1153
01:11:40,170 --> 01:11:42,673
So I want to say sorry.
1154
01:11:43,632 --> 01:11:47,428
You are my proof, and I am your proof.
1155
01:11:52,349 --> 01:11:54,935
One brief moment
1156
01:11:55,019 --> 01:11:56,687
captured all of us
1157
01:11:56,770 --> 01:11:58,939
into this kind of victimhood.
1158
01:11:59,023 --> 01:12:03,360
Thank you for standing by me
all this time.
1159
01:12:08,949 --> 01:12:12,369
This is a sad, sad story.
1160
01:12:13,871 --> 01:12:16,040
The smallest of acts
1161
01:12:16,123 --> 01:12:19,376
can have a huge consequence.
1162
01:12:24,298 --> 01:12:28,677
Can we just review
what Nick’s narrative is?
1163
01:12:29,845 --> 01:12:32,139
Here’s what he says.
He says that morning,
1164
01:12:32,222 --> 01:12:36,810
he went in an AP van with a driver.
1165
01:12:37,519 --> 01:12:41,565
I and another man
named David Burnett from Time Magazine.
1166
01:12:42,232 --> 01:12:45,194
I and a Vietnamese man
named Hoảng Vãn Doanh,
1167
01:12:45,277 --> 01:12:47,112
a freelance reporter for AP and UPI,
1168
01:12:47,613 --> 01:12:53,369
and there was another man, Nghệ, who
was a driver for NBC, he was not media.
1169
01:12:53,952 --> 01:12:55,954
He was driving a car with the journalists.
1170
01:12:56,038 --> 01:12:57,915
He drove a friend of mine, Lê Phúc Đinh,
1171
01:12:57,998 --> 01:13:01,210
a cameraman who captured
the entire scene of the bombing.
1172
01:13:01,293 --> 01:13:03,003
Nobody disputes that he was there,
1173
01:13:03,087 --> 01:13:06,423
nobody disputes that he took
pictures that day.
1174
01:13:07,091 --> 01:13:09,093
Kim Phúc has always said
that she was in shock,
1175
01:13:09,176 --> 01:13:10,928
and can’t really remember the incident.
1176
01:13:11,011 --> 01:13:13,389
The photographer who took my picture,
1177
01:13:13,472 --> 01:13:16,892
{\an8}unfortunately,
I don’t remember his face.
1178
01:13:17,643 --> 01:13:20,354
The first person to run out
was an old lady,
1179
01:13:20,437 --> 01:13:23,899
at least 70 years old.
She ran out first.
1180
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,151
Then the children ran out.
1181
01:13:26,819 --> 01:13:30,197
Nobody disputes that
he photographed the grandmother…
1182
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:32,324
…and the baby dying.
1183
01:13:32,408 --> 01:13:34,701
Does he state, unequivocally,
1184
01:13:34,785 --> 01:13:37,037
that he takes
the famous photograph
1185
01:13:37,121 --> 01:13:39,456
after he photographed the grandmother?
1186
01:13:39,540 --> 01:13:42,042
- Yes.
- Right, so that’s his sequence?
1187
01:13:42,126 --> 01:13:43,877
- That’s his sequence.
- Okay.
1188
01:13:43,961 --> 01:13:48,966
I had just taken a photo.
I looked through the viewfinder and
1189
01:13:49,049 --> 01:13:53,637
suddenly saw girl, arms outstretched,
running and ask myself,
1190
01:13:54,138 --> 01:13:55,556
"Why isn't she wearing clothes?"
1191
01:13:56,223 --> 01:13:58,934
I had to run close to her
and take the photo
1192
01:14:01,019 --> 01:14:05,816
And according to Nick’s narrative,
1193
01:14:05,899 --> 01:14:07,818
that he shoots on his Leica
1194
01:14:07,901 --> 01:14:10,237
he uses a 35mm lens, that’s what he had.
1195
01:14:11,321 --> 01:14:14,533
Then he puts water on her.
1196
01:14:14,616 --> 01:14:16,702
- Everyone leaves.
- Yeah.
1197
01:14:16,785 --> 01:14:21,665
And he takes Kim, the girl,
and her brother,
1198
01:14:21,748 --> 01:14:23,375
to the Cu Chi Hospital,
1199
01:14:23,459 --> 01:14:24,960
which is the closest hospital…
1200
01:14:25,043 --> 01:14:29,006
In the AP van, he’s said multiple times.
1201
01:14:29,089 --> 01:14:32,759
It was then that Kim Phúc's uncle ran out
1202
01:14:32,843 --> 01:14:37,764
and asked me if I could take the children
to the hospital.
1203
01:14:38,390 --> 01:14:40,392
I had a van. I opened the door.
1204
01:14:40,476 --> 01:14:44,021
I carried Kim Phúc and put her
on the floor of the car
1205
01:14:44,104 --> 01:14:46,190
because her back was burned badly,
so she couldn't lean back.
1206
01:14:46,273 --> 01:14:47,941
Then three kids jumped in.
1207
01:14:51,236 --> 01:14:54,448
However in a 1984 documentary,
1208
01:14:54,531 --> 01:14:56,950
Kim Phúc's mother tells a different story.
1209
01:14:57,034 --> 01:15:02,664
She was burned badly
we didn't know how to save her.
1210
01:15:04,833 --> 01:15:08,420
There was an uncle who carried her
on his back and ran.
1211
01:15:08,504 --> 01:15:10,672
He took her down to Bắc Hà, Củ Chi.
1212
01:15:10,756 --> 01:15:16,136
From there, a plane took her
to the Children’s Hospital.
1213
01:15:16,220 --> 01:15:17,930
- Yeah.
- Right.
1214
01:15:18,013 --> 01:15:19,473
Then, Nick claims…
1215
01:15:19,556 --> 01:15:22,309
- he goes to AP.
- Mm-hmm.
1216
01:15:22,392 --> 01:15:23,810
…that he goes into the darkroom
1217
01:15:23,894 --> 01:15:25,521
to develop the film with Jackson.
1218
01:15:25,604 --> 01:15:29,066
Yet Carl says that Nick wasn’t
there when he arrived,
1219
01:15:29,149 --> 01:15:31,485
and then Nick came in later
in civilian clothes.
1220
01:15:31,985 --> 01:15:35,656
Horst says, um,
“Good job, Nick.”
1221
01:15:35,739 --> 01:15:37,950
Yeah, “You did a good job.”
1222
01:15:38,033 --> 01:15:40,244
That’s what David Burnett says.
1223
01:15:49,211 --> 01:15:51,588
- Nice to meet you.
- Yeah, I know.
1224
01:15:51,672 --> 01:15:54,508
Hey, guys. Nice to meet you.
1225
01:15:54,591 --> 01:15:56,969
- Hello, Gary.
- Nice to see you.
1226
01:15:57,052 --> 01:16:01,974
{\an8}So, to take you through the process
and the methodology we’ve used
1227
01:16:02,057 --> 01:16:05,644
{\an8}to analyze the footage that
you’ve shared with us,
1228
01:16:05,727 --> 01:16:07,563
from that sort of weaving together
1229
01:16:07,646 --> 01:16:10,774
of these different threads and clues,
1230
01:16:10,857 --> 01:16:15,237
I think a coherent overall
picture appears.
1231
01:16:19,283 --> 01:16:20,576
We started by examining
1232
01:16:20,659 --> 01:16:22,911
the photographs and film clips
you provided us,
1233
01:16:22,995 --> 01:16:25,872
all captured by reporters in
Trảng Bàng on that day.
1234
01:16:28,625 --> 01:16:31,837
We used a November 1972
satellite image
1235
01:16:31,920 --> 01:16:34,006
to understand the area’s layout,
1236
01:16:34,089 --> 01:16:36,258
and began matching landmarks
between the photos
1237
01:16:36,341 --> 01:16:38,468
and the satellite image, to pinpoint
1238
01:16:38,552 --> 01:16:40,596
where each photograph was taken.
1239
01:16:47,311 --> 01:16:49,354
The sequence we focus on begins
1240
01:16:49,438 --> 01:16:52,316
with the aerial dropping
and explosion of napalm bombs,
1241
01:16:52,399 --> 01:16:55,068
around the Cao Dai temple
in Trảng Bàng.
1242
01:16:56,236 --> 01:16:58,155
This moment was captured
in film footage
1243
01:16:58,238 --> 01:17:00,157
by a British ITN News crew.
1244
01:17:12,085 --> 01:17:14,421
In a photograph taken shortly after,
1245
01:17:14,504 --> 01:17:16,673
a group of reporters can be seen
1246
01:17:16,715 --> 01:17:18,842
near a checkpoint and bridge,
1247
01:17:18,925 --> 01:17:22,054
matching this location
on the satellite image.
1248
01:17:23,221 --> 01:17:24,598
They are facing the temple,
1249
01:17:24,681 --> 01:17:26,350
which is about 500 meters,
1250
01:17:26,433 --> 01:17:28,226
or a third of a mile away.
1251
01:17:31,104 --> 01:17:33,774
This is the first picture
where we see Kim Phúc
1252
01:17:33,857 --> 01:17:35,734
among a group of other children.
1253
01:17:35,817 --> 01:17:37,444
They are emerging from a field
1254
01:17:37,527 --> 01:17:40,614
onto the main road,
accompanied by soldiers.
1255
01:17:41,698 --> 01:17:43,992
Behind them, we distinguish a dirt path
1256
01:17:44,076 --> 01:17:46,161
perpendicular to the main road,
1257
01:17:46,244 --> 01:17:48,121
which appears to match
this location
1258
01:17:48,205 --> 01:17:49,414
on the satellite image.
1259
01:17:56,296 --> 01:18:00,092
The next available photograph is
the one known as "Napalm Girl."
1260
01:18:02,469 --> 01:18:04,096
Kim Phúc and the other children
1261
01:18:04,179 --> 01:18:05,931
are walking up the main road,
1262
01:18:06,014 --> 01:18:07,432
moving away from the temple
1263
01:18:07,516 --> 01:18:09,351
and the site of the explosion.
1264
01:18:10,644 --> 01:18:13,188
Drawing on a range of visual
cross-references,
1265
01:18:13,271 --> 01:18:15,190
we determined
an approximate position
1266
01:18:15,273 --> 01:18:17,025
for the photographer on the road,
1267
01:18:17,109 --> 01:18:19,152
as represented in our 3D model.
1268
01:18:28,704 --> 01:18:30,706
The original negative of the photograph
1269
01:18:30,789 --> 01:18:32,833
confirms that the subsequent image.
1270
01:18:32,916 --> 01:18:34,751
was taken by the same photographer
1271
01:18:34,835 --> 01:18:37,003
who captured the Napalm Girl picture.
1272
01:18:40,799 --> 01:18:44,636
The next available shot of the children
comes from an ITN news clip.
1273
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:46,221
As they continue up the road,
1274
01:18:46,304 --> 01:18:48,974
the footage captures them
running past the news crew.
1275
01:18:50,517 --> 01:18:53,061
The cameraman pans to follow Kim Phúc.
1276
01:18:58,150 --> 01:18:59,985
In this frame from the ITN footage,
1277
01:19:00,068 --> 01:19:02,946
we now see Kim Phúc and
another child from behind.
1278
01:19:04,114 --> 01:19:05,657
Two figures face them.
1279
01:19:06,950 --> 01:19:10,746
The one on the right is
capturing the reverse shot
1280
01:19:10,829 --> 01:19:13,999
showing the group of children
in front of a line of reporters.
1281
01:19:17,127 --> 01:19:20,505
Among them, we can distinguish,
three film cameramen,
1282
01:19:20,589 --> 01:19:22,841
two soundmen, and on the right,
1283
01:19:22,924 --> 01:19:25,218
a single photographer
with a stills camera,
1284
01:19:25,302 --> 01:19:27,846
which we have identified
as the stringer.
1285
01:19:30,432 --> 01:19:33,769
These reporters stand a short distance
up the road
1286
01:19:33,852 --> 01:19:36,146
from the spot where, just seconds earlier,
1287
01:19:36,229 --> 01:19:38,482
the Napalm Girl photograph
was captured.
1288
01:19:45,530 --> 01:19:48,325
In the shot from the ITN footage,
at that same moment,
1289
01:19:48,408 --> 01:19:50,911
we can make out another
figure in the background
1290
01:19:50,994 --> 01:19:52,788
approaching from farther back,
1291
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:54,748
who seems to be carrying gear.
1292
01:19:58,168 --> 01:20:02,464
After a cut, the ITN footage
shows a close-up of Kim Phúc
1293
01:20:02,547 --> 01:20:04,883
receiving water from the journalists.
1294
01:20:06,218 --> 01:20:09,221
The distant figure
carrying gear is now closer.
1295
01:20:09,971 --> 01:20:13,225
He’s wearing a helmet, and
appears to be holding a camera.
1296
01:20:17,479 --> 01:20:19,606
This exact moment has also been captured
1297
01:20:19,689 --> 01:20:22,567
by the photographer we’ve seen
approaching from afar.
1298
01:20:29,282 --> 01:20:32,911
This photograph is attributed
to Nick Út by AP.
1299
01:20:34,287 --> 01:20:37,415
Another picture captures
the scene shortly after,
1300
01:20:37,499 --> 01:20:41,127
while Kim Phúc is still
in front of the ITN cameraman.
1301
01:20:43,255 --> 01:20:44,714
A figure looking towards them
1302
01:20:44,798 --> 01:20:47,217
is visible on
the left side of the frame.
1303
01:20:47,300 --> 01:20:50,846
We notice he's wearing a helmet
with a fabric tag
1304
01:20:50,929 --> 01:20:54,099
short sleeves, and a jacket
hanging on his right side.
1305
01:20:56,101 --> 01:20:58,645
These details are consistent
with the photographer
1306
01:20:58,728 --> 01:21:00,272
we saw approaching from a distance
1307
01:21:00,355 --> 01:21:01,690
in the ITN footage.
1308
01:21:03,817 --> 01:21:05,360
In the next available image,
1309
01:21:05,443 --> 01:21:08,697
the same figure is visible
as he’s taking a photograph,
1310
01:21:09,406 --> 01:21:11,658
most likely this photograph of Kim Phúc,
1311
01:21:11,741 --> 01:21:14,703
also attributed to Nick Út by AP.
1312
01:21:16,746 --> 01:21:19,457
Finally, a reverse shot of
the same scene is taken,
1313
01:21:19,541 --> 01:21:21,960
where we can positively identify Nick Út
1314
01:21:22,043 --> 01:21:25,171
as the photographer wearing
a helmet and carrying gear,
1315
01:21:25,255 --> 01:21:28,592
first seen in the distance
in the ITN footage.
1316
01:21:30,552 --> 01:21:33,013
By revisiting this footage,
we can now establish
1317
01:21:33,096 --> 01:21:34,556
that just seconds after
1318
01:21:34,639 --> 01:21:36,641
the Napalm Girl photograph was taken,
1319
01:21:36,725 --> 01:21:39,477
Nick Út appears at a considerable distance
1320
01:21:39,561 --> 01:21:41,146
from the running children,
1321
01:21:41,229 --> 01:21:44,274
walking towards them
from the opposite direction.
1322
01:21:50,822 --> 01:21:53,783
Therefore we can conclude
that it is highly unlikely
1323
01:21:53,867 --> 01:21:56,661
that Nick Út took
the Napalm Girl photograph.
1324
01:22:03,919 --> 01:22:05,962
It doesn't really make sense
1325
01:22:06,046 --> 01:22:08,506
that a few seconds
after the picture was taken
1326
01:22:08,548 --> 01:22:11,426
that he would be so far away
and coming back
1327
01:22:11,509 --> 01:22:14,179
if he was the person that had
taken the picture at that time.
1328
01:22:14,262 --> 01:22:17,349
I think what we have, though,
we have two people…
1329
01:22:17,432 --> 01:22:19,309
who claim to have taken the photograph.
1330
01:22:19,392 --> 01:22:21,311
- Mm-hmm.
- Only two.
1331
01:22:21,394 --> 01:22:25,190
One is Nick Út,
and one is Nghệ, the stringer.
1332
01:22:26,232 --> 01:22:27,943
And what you're telling me here,
1333
01:22:28,026 --> 01:22:31,237
is that Nick Út wasn't in the right place
1334
01:22:31,321 --> 01:22:32,864
to have taken the photograph.
1335
01:22:32,948 --> 01:22:34,366
Which would mean the only person
1336
01:22:34,449 --> 01:22:36,701
who was in the right place
to take the photograph
1337
01:22:36,785 --> 01:22:38,912
who claims to have taken the photograph,
1338
01:22:38,995 --> 01:22:40,205
would be the stringer.
1339
01:22:40,288 --> 01:22:41,831
- That's correct.
- Mm-hmm.
1340
01:22:42,415 --> 01:22:44,501
In our model, in our virtual cameras,
1341
01:22:44,584 --> 01:22:46,419
Napalm Girl picture
1342
01:22:46,503 --> 01:22:49,965
is most likely taken
by a camera of 50 mm.
1343
01:22:50,048 --> 01:22:51,466
At least the virtual camera…
1344
01:22:51,549 --> 01:22:54,594
- our model… says it.
- Yep.
1345
01:22:54,678 --> 01:22:56,680
And the stringer, Nghệ,
1346
01:22:56,763 --> 01:22:59,140
is using a 50 mill lens on a Pentax.
1347
01:23:01,518 --> 01:23:02,852
That's remarkable.
1348
01:23:02,936 --> 01:23:04,604
- Thank you.
- Thank you.
1349
01:23:05,522 --> 01:23:06,815
Regarding the photograph
1350
01:23:06,898 --> 01:23:08,441
of the grandmother holding the baby,
1351
01:23:08,525 --> 01:23:11,111
if we look at the smoke in the background,
1352
01:23:11,194 --> 01:23:13,571
we notice that
it is significantly less dense
1353
01:23:13,655 --> 01:23:15,824
than in the series
of photographs of Kim Phúc
1354
01:23:15,907 --> 01:23:17,617
walking down the road.
1355
01:23:18,326 --> 01:23:19,995
This suggests that the photograph
1356
01:23:20,078 --> 01:23:21,705
of the grandmother was likely taken
1357
01:23:21,788 --> 01:23:24,582
minutes after the Napalm Girl photo.
1358
01:23:26,793 --> 01:23:29,546
We found another clue in the ITN footage.
1359
01:23:29,629 --> 01:23:31,798
When the camera follows
the grandmother,
1360
01:23:32,924 --> 01:23:35,176
we can see in the crowd,
at the checkpoint,
1361
01:23:35,260 --> 01:23:37,429
the figure of a seemingly naked girl
1362
01:23:37,512 --> 01:23:39,848
in all likelihood, Kim Phúc herself,
1363
01:23:40,515 --> 01:23:42,392
as well as the other children
on the right,
1364
01:23:43,226 --> 01:23:45,729
indicating their arrival
ahead of the grandmother.
1365
01:23:49,024 --> 01:23:51,901
{\an8}…just seconds after the Napalm Girl
photograph was taken,
1366
01:23:51,985 --> 01:23:53,987
{\an8}Nick Út appears
at a considerable distance
1367
01:23:55,613 --> 01:23:57,991
{\an8}That’s Nick Út.
1368
01:23:58,491 --> 01:24:00,452
So you’re saying he’s too far back?
1369
01:24:00,535 --> 01:24:03,997
Just watch,
the direction he’s coming from.
1370
01:24:06,249 --> 01:24:08,501
So, he’s way out of position.
1371
01:24:09,335 --> 01:24:11,504
We know that photography
is all about positioning.
1372
01:24:11,588 --> 01:24:13,798
You can’t get the picture
if you’re not there,
1373
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:16,384
and he’s not there, and we know that
1374
01:24:16,468 --> 01:24:19,429
because we see him
too far out of position
1375
01:24:19,512 --> 01:24:20,764
to have been there.
1376
01:24:21,347 --> 01:24:23,558
Nick Út, we know where his pictures are.
1377
01:24:23,641 --> 01:24:26,019
The UPI guy,
we know where his pictures are,
1378
01:24:26,519 --> 01:24:28,980
but what about this guy here?
1379
01:24:29,064 --> 01:24:31,107
Nobody has his pictures.
1380
01:24:31,191 --> 01:24:32,650
That’s amazing.
1381
01:24:34,110 --> 01:24:35,320
You know, there will be people, I’m sure,
1382
01:24:35,403 --> 01:24:38,156
who still maintain that Nick
must have taken that photograph,
1383
01:24:38,239 --> 01:24:40,533
but to believe that,
1384
01:24:41,409 --> 01:24:44,913
you have to not
believe anything Carl said,
1385
01:24:44,996 --> 01:24:47,165
not believe the stringer,
1386
01:24:47,248 --> 01:24:49,834
not believe his children,
1387
01:24:50,627 --> 01:24:53,630
wonder why Horst, or someone at AP,
1388
01:24:53,713 --> 01:24:56,591
gave him a print to put on his fridge.
1389
01:24:56,674 --> 01:24:59,761
You have to disbelieve
the evidence of the photograph,
1390
01:24:59,844 --> 01:25:00,762
the evidence of the video.
1391
01:25:00,845 --> 01:25:02,806
You have to disbelieve
everything and everybody,
1392
01:25:02,889 --> 01:25:06,267
and only believe Nick or Arnett,
1393
01:25:06,351 --> 01:25:08,436
who believes that Nick took the picture,
1394
01:25:08,520 --> 01:25:11,523
because Horst told him
Nick took the picture.
1395
01:25:11,606 --> 01:25:15,985
All of the evidence actually
comes from Horst’s mouth.
1396
01:25:16,069 --> 01:25:19,155
As a former DOP of AP, um,
1397
01:25:19,239 --> 01:25:22,700
you know, you’re as well-placed
as anybody to understand
1398
01:25:22,784 --> 01:25:24,285
what we’re looking at here.
1399
01:25:25,245 --> 01:25:26,746
So if we take this to AP,
1400
01:25:26,830 --> 01:25:28,081
what does that mean for the image?
1401
01:25:28,164 --> 01:25:29,624
What does it mean to AP?
1402
01:25:29,707 --> 01:25:31,876
Nobody’s calling the veracity
of the image
1403
01:25:31,960 --> 01:25:33,419
into question, right?
1404
01:25:33,503 --> 01:25:36,714
So, the veracity and the power
of the image still stands.
1405
01:25:36,798 --> 01:25:40,802
AP’s ownership and distribution
of the image still stand.
1406
01:25:41,553 --> 01:25:43,096
There’s a lot of spatter.
1407
01:25:43,972 --> 01:25:46,224
A lot of people are going to
get spattered by this.
1408
01:25:46,307 --> 01:25:49,727
The people who have, you know,
defended this to the death.
1409
01:25:50,353 --> 01:25:51,271
Yeah.
1410
01:25:51,354 --> 01:25:53,148
In some ways it’s the Vietnamese
1411
01:25:53,231 --> 01:25:55,567
reclaiming the narrative of something
1412
01:25:55,650 --> 01:25:57,235
that happened in their country,
1413
01:25:57,318 --> 01:25:58,987
as opposed to having,
1414
01:26:00,405 --> 01:26:02,323
with regards to the crediting
of the picture,
1415
01:26:02,407 --> 01:26:03,992
a narrative foisted on them.
1416
01:26:04,576 --> 01:26:06,703
It’s not easy to unpack a narrative
1417
01:26:06,786 --> 01:26:09,414
that’s sort of stuck in
people’s collective conscience
1418
01:26:09,497 --> 01:26:11,124
for so long.
1419
01:26:11,207 --> 01:26:13,585
How is Nick Út going to
stick up his hand and say,
1420
01:26:13,668 --> 01:26:15,962
I think there was a mistake,
I didn’t make the picture?
1421
01:26:16,546 --> 01:26:19,591
You know, as time goes on,
and that narrative sinks in,
1422
01:26:19,674 --> 01:26:20,842
it becomes even harder.
1423
01:26:20,925 --> 01:26:22,760
Like you either do that
at the moment, or…
1424
01:26:22,844 --> 01:26:24,762
- You never do.
- Or you never do it, right?
1425
01:26:25,555 --> 01:26:27,348
For Nghệ,
1426
01:26:27,891 --> 01:26:29,100
it’s justice,
1427
01:26:30,143 --> 01:26:31,269
it’s justice.
1428
01:26:31,352 --> 01:26:32,812
That’s pretty powerful.
1429
01:26:35,064 --> 01:26:38,109
I think the AP is the big
elephant in the room here,
1430
01:26:38,193 --> 01:26:41,237
and I find it very difficult
to believe that,
1431
01:26:41,321 --> 01:26:43,323
when presented with
this evidence,
1432
01:26:43,406 --> 01:26:45,575
that they won’t engage.
1433
01:27:04,093 --> 01:27:08,723
It’s off the record, so, obviously
I can’t disclose, you know, very much,
1434
01:27:08,806 --> 01:27:12,185
but, um, I think we’ve done
the right thing
1435
01:27:12,268 --> 01:27:14,312
by talking to AP.
1436
01:27:14,896 --> 01:27:18,274
Uh, whether AP do the right
thing remains to be seen.
1437
01:27:34,207 --> 01:27:37,210
{\an8}For 52 years Nick Út
had always been believed to be
1438
01:27:37,293 --> 01:27:40,129
the photographer
who captured the "Napalm Girl" photo.
1439
01:27:40,213 --> 01:27:43,007
However, a recent revelation
has challenged
1440
01:27:43,091 --> 01:27:45,927
the greatest achievement
of his photography career.
1441
01:27:46,010 --> 01:27:49,639
This iconic photo is at the center
of a growing controversy.
1442
01:27:51,391 --> 01:27:53,476
The “Napalm Girl” with questions
the world will never forget.
1443
01:27:53,559 --> 01:27:54,852
But is this shot really one of his?
1444
01:27:54,936 --> 01:27:56,646
The story of a probable usurpation
1445
01:27:56,729 --> 01:27:58,439
which will have lasted 50 years.
1446
01:27:59,357 --> 01:28:01,025
In the AP report, they state…
1447
01:28:01,109 --> 01:28:06,406
"a challenged credit would be removed
only if definitive evidence showed
1448
01:28:06,489 --> 01:28:10,201
that the person who claimed to have
taken the photo did not."
1449
01:28:12,328 --> 01:28:14,080
They concluded the true authorship…
1450
01:28:14,831 --> 01:28:16,749
"cannot be proven definitively
1451
01:28:16,833 --> 01:28:18,626
due to the passage of time,
1452
01:28:18,710 --> 01:28:21,587
the death of many
of the key players involved
1453
01:28:21,671 --> 01:28:23,881
and the limitations of technology.
1454
01:28:25,174 --> 01:28:29,137
Thus, the photo attribution
will remain as is."
1455
01:29:12,930 --> 01:29:16,351
Yes, that’s the camera.
It was a Pentax, yes.
1456
01:29:36,537 --> 01:29:39,123
{\an8}Using material revealed
in AP's report,
1457
01:29:39,207 --> 01:29:41,209
{\an8}we can now refine our conclusions.
1458
01:29:42,585 --> 01:29:45,922
First, we have analyzed this photograph
by David Burnett.
1459
01:29:47,048 --> 01:29:49,217
Nick Út appears in the foreground,
1460
01:29:49,300 --> 01:29:53,012
while Kim Phúc is still in
the fields beside the main road.
1461
01:29:53,888 --> 01:29:56,182
The long lens compresses perspective,
1462
01:29:56,265 --> 01:29:58,976
making them seem closer
than they are.
1463
01:30:01,312 --> 01:30:04,482
A barbed wire fence visible beside Út
1464
01:30:04,565 --> 01:30:07,318
shows he's still at the checkpoint.
1465
01:30:10,571 --> 01:30:13,825
Namely, about 170 meters
from the spot
1466
01:30:13,908 --> 01:30:17,286
where the Napalm Girl photograph
will soon be taken.
1467
01:30:17,995 --> 01:30:22,542
At this moment, Kim Phúc is only
60 meters away from that spot.
1468
01:30:24,293 --> 01:30:26,129
Our next photograph shows that
1469
01:30:26,212 --> 01:30:28,589
for Út to have taken the famous picture,
1470
01:30:28,673 --> 01:30:30,508
he would have needed
to run three times
1471
01:30:30,591 --> 01:30:32,135
the distance traveled by Kim Phúc
1472
01:30:32,218 --> 01:30:34,178
in the same brief interval.
1473
01:30:37,432 --> 01:30:41,477
Next, we examine a three-second
piece of NBC footage
1474
01:30:41,561 --> 01:30:44,897
shot immediately after Napalm Girl.
1475
01:30:46,023 --> 01:30:49,819
A careful analysis of the water
marks visible on the road
1476
01:30:49,902 --> 01:30:54,198
in different images allows us to
determine Kim Phúc's movement.
1477
01:30:58,578 --> 01:31:01,247
From her position
in the Napalm Girl photograph,
1478
01:31:01,831 --> 01:31:05,084
she has advanced approximately
40 meters up the road
1479
01:31:05,168 --> 01:31:09,380
by the time she appears from behind
in this frame of the ITN footage.
1480
01:31:10,965 --> 01:31:14,844
Based on her estimated speed,
about 15 seconds have elapsed
1481
01:31:14,927 --> 01:31:17,180
since the famous shot.
1482
01:31:18,931 --> 01:31:21,392
Our 3D reconstruction of this frame
1483
01:31:21,476 --> 01:31:24,812
places Nick Út at the distance
of about 50 meters
1484
01:31:24,896 --> 01:31:27,356
from the ITN cameramen at this moment.
1485
01:31:28,941 --> 01:31:33,029
In other words, about 15 seconds
after the photograph was taken,
1486
01:31:33,112 --> 01:31:38,159
Út is visible approximately
75 meters, or 250 feet away
1487
01:31:38,242 --> 01:31:41,120
from the spot where Napalm Girl was shot,
1488
01:31:41,204 --> 01:31:44,248
still walking down the road
from the opposite direction.
1489
01:31:45,541 --> 01:31:47,502
For Nick Út to
have taken the photograph,
1490
01:31:47,585 --> 01:31:51,130
he would have had to sprint
170 meters down the road
1491
01:31:51,214 --> 01:31:52,840
from his position at the checkpoint.
1492
01:31:54,383 --> 01:31:58,262
Then sprint back 75 meters, turn around,
1493
01:31:58,346 --> 01:32:00,890
and finally reappear moments later
1494
01:32:00,973 --> 01:32:03,684
calmly walking back towards the scene.
1495
01:32:04,644 --> 01:32:08,147
This appears as an extremely
implausible scenario.
1496
01:32:29,168 --> 01:32:33,464
{\an8}New research asserts that Nick Út is
not the author of this iconic photograph.
1497
01:32:33,548 --> 01:32:36,384
And this prompted deep reflection
within World Press Photo
1498
01:32:36,467 --> 01:32:38,344
and a subsequent investigation.
1499
01:32:39,011 --> 01:32:42,557
I would now like to invite the director
of World Press Photo Foundation,
1500
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:44,934
Joumana El Zein Khoury, to the stage.
1501
01:32:45,601 --> 01:32:47,603
Please give her a big round of applause.
1502
01:32:53,859 --> 01:32:56,696
In line with our judging procedures,
1503
01:32:57,196 --> 01:32:59,490
and our values,
1504
01:32:59,574 --> 01:33:02,743
{\an8}we cannot, with
the amount of doubt that exists,
1505
01:33:02,827 --> 01:33:06,914
{\an8}continue to say that the photo
is attributed to Nick Út.
1506
01:33:07,790 --> 01:33:09,709
What we have done is suspend
1507
01:33:09,792 --> 01:33:13,212
the attribution of the authorship
to Nick Út.
1508
01:33:13,879 --> 01:33:17,049
We think authorship is very important.
1509
01:33:17,133 --> 01:33:19,594
We think that the truth is very important.
1510
01:33:19,677 --> 01:33:21,971
We think that accuracy is very important,
1511
01:33:22,054 --> 01:33:25,016
and we think that our public
and our community
1512
01:33:25,099 --> 01:33:27,893
deserves to have that, especially…
1513
01:34:00,426 --> 01:34:02,803
What we accept as the official record
1514
01:34:02,887 --> 01:34:05,848
is often shaped more
by power than by perspective.
1515
01:34:07,433 --> 01:34:10,853
But even the most entrenched histories
deserve to be reexamined.
1516
01:34:12,563 --> 01:34:14,940
Countless Vietnamese
photographers and reporters
1517
01:34:15,024 --> 01:34:17,610
worked in anonymity
during the Vietnam War,
1518
01:34:18,110 --> 01:34:19,487
not out of choice,
1519
01:34:19,570 --> 01:34:21,989
but because their work
was credited to others.
1520
01:34:22,823 --> 01:34:25,493
They accepted it because
they had no choice.
1521
01:34:27,119 --> 01:34:29,455
They were outsiders in their own country,
1522
01:34:29,538 --> 01:34:31,582
and they knew no-one would listen.
1523
01:34:41,008 --> 01:34:45,221
My mom passed away nine years ago.
1524
01:34:47,765 --> 01:34:51,519
A few weeks ago, I was thinking of her,
1525
01:34:51,602 --> 01:34:54,438
and I decided to go through
1526
01:34:54,522 --> 01:34:58,359
the red case in Mom’s closet,
1527
01:35:00,236 --> 01:35:03,447
and the last thing I saw
1528
01:35:03,531 --> 01:35:09,745
was a-- …was a piece of an old newspaper,
1529
01:35:10,413 --> 01:35:14,500
carefully cut and folded neatly.
1530
01:35:15,668 --> 01:35:18,212
An iconic photo
1531
01:35:18,295 --> 01:35:22,466
that Mom threw it away many years ago,
1532
01:35:22,550 --> 01:35:25,970
but she kept the newspaper photo,
1533
01:35:26,512 --> 01:35:28,764
and she saved it,
1534
01:35:28,848 --> 01:35:32,101
secretly, silently.
1535
01:35:39,108 --> 01:35:40,818
Silence isn't truth,
1536
01:35:40,901 --> 01:35:42,987
and as years pass,
the silence beats louder.
1537
01:35:43,738 --> 01:35:46,782
Challenged by time, memory is imperfect.
1538
01:35:46,866 --> 01:35:50,745
But it matters who pressed the shutter,
not just for one man's legacy,
1539
01:35:50,828 --> 01:35:56,083
but for what it says about who
gets remembered and who gets erased.
1540
01:36:01,839 --> 01:36:04,300
When the truth is disregarded,
1541
01:36:04,383 --> 01:36:07,553
that's when society becomes corrupted.
1542
01:36:08,053 --> 01:36:15,019
The truth is the truth,
it cannot be twisted, or torn apart.
1543
01:36:15,686 --> 01:36:20,983
Because if so, it's no longer the truth,
and we will have lost our moral compass.
1544
01:36:31,702 --> 01:36:34,830
After fifty years I hope
that people will no longer see
1545
01:36:34,914 --> 01:36:36,749
Vietnamese children through that photo
1546
01:36:36,832 --> 01:36:38,793
but through other brighter,
happier images.
1547
01:36:43,506 --> 01:36:49,261
My hope is that the truth will be restored
to its rightful place
1548
01:36:49,345 --> 01:36:52,932
and that Nick Út himself
will feel a sense of relief and peace.
1549
01:37:51,615 --> 01:37:53,659
The photograph of a nine-year-old girl
1550
01:37:53,742 --> 01:37:55,160
called Phan Thi Kim Phúc,
1551
01:37:55,244 --> 01:37:56,704
and four other children
1552
01:37:56,787 --> 01:37:58,455
running towards a photographer,
1553
01:37:58,539 --> 01:38:02,167
burning and screaming, in June 1972,
1554
01:38:02,251 --> 01:38:04,003
which became one of
the most important
1555
01:38:04,086 --> 01:38:05,588
photographs ever made,
1556
01:38:05,671 --> 01:38:11,552
was created, I believe,
by a man called Nguyễn Thành Nghệ.
1557
01:38:33,282 --> 01:38:37,494
I've held
onto this truth for more than 50 years.
1558
01:38:42,917 --> 01:38:46,629
I was the one who took the photograph.
1559
01:38:47,129 --> 01:38:49,548
Now I have a voice.