1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.BZ 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.BZ 3 00:00:24,984 --> 00:00:28,279 [traffic roar] 4 00:00:32,992 --> 00:00:36,537 [birdsong] 5 00:01:10,780 --> 00:01:13,532 If we'd made the film, there would've been a car here 6 00:01:14,784 --> 00:01:16,827 probably in that spot on the left 7 00:01:17,912 --> 00:01:22,041 and it would've been a California Highway Patrol car 8 00:01:22,500 --> 00:01:23,918 but era-appropriate 9 00:01:24,085 --> 00:01:26,629 so like a 1960s... 10 00:01:27,254 --> 00:01:29,965 black cruiser with a white door 11 00:01:30,132 --> 00:01:31,509 and a kind of... 12 00:01:33,552 --> 00:01:34,887 badge on the side. 13 00:01:40,893 --> 00:01:43,521 This would've all been reenactment, obviously 14 00:01:45,439 --> 00:01:47,983 which is how all these things tend to start now. 15 00:01:49,693 --> 00:01:53,364 Like, everything's got to have that rhythm of drama... 16 00:01:54,448 --> 00:01:56,659 even when it's documentary. 17 00:02:03,457 --> 00:02:07,336 So inside the cruiser, we'd have an actor playing Lyndon, 18 00:02:08,003 --> 00:02:10,339 the cop at the center of the story, 19 00:02:12,049 --> 00:02:14,510 and he's just sitting there minding his own business 20 00:02:15,302 --> 00:02:17,513 when in pulls this other car. 21 00:02:19,014 --> 00:02:21,350 And of all the spots in the parking lot, 22 00:02:21,725 --> 00:02:24,019 this car pulls up right next to Lyndon's. 23 00:02:28,315 --> 00:02:31,026 And so at first, Lyndon doesn't necessarily think much of it. 24 00:02:31,652 --> 00:02:33,988 but eventually he looks over at the guy 25 00:02:34,738 --> 00:02:35,990 and he sees 26 00:02:36,532 --> 00:02:38,826 that the guy is staring right at him. 27 00:02:40,744 --> 00:02:44,498 And we'd have heard Lyndon's inner monologue throughout this 28 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:46,959 which would've been taken from the book. 29 00:02:49,545 --> 00:02:51,297 I'll just read a little bit of that now. 30 00:02:52,214 --> 00:02:54,091 [ominous drone] 31 00:02:55,134 --> 00:02:55,968 So he says: 32 00:02:58,304 --> 00:03:01,098 'He did not drop his eyes or turn away.' 33 00:03:03,058 --> 00:03:05,603 'With his face quivering in spasms,' 34 00:03:06,270 --> 00:03:09,064 'and an unflinching stare of hate,' 35 00:03:09,982 --> 00:03:12,776 'I knew I was looking into the eyes of death.' 36 00:03:15,112 --> 00:03:16,655 So he describes it in these almost... 37 00:03:17,573 --> 00:03:19,533 biblical terms. 38 00:03:20,117 --> 00:03:23,245 And obviously we'd have had a close-up of these eyes... 39 00:03:23,829 --> 00:03:25,372 if we could find an actor 40 00:03:25,706 --> 00:03:28,334 with eyes menacing enough to match that description 41 00:03:29,210 --> 00:03:30,753 and probably cross-cutting between that 42 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:32,963 and Lyndon's eyes, and it's this kind of... 43 00:03:33,964 --> 00:03:35,174 face-off situation 44 00:03:35,549 --> 00:03:38,052 between these two men in silence in this parking lot. 45 00:03:40,429 --> 00:03:42,389 This feeling of a growing tension 46 00:03:42,890 --> 00:03:44,934 that has to break in some way. 47 00:03:49,021 --> 00:03:51,106 And finally, just when you think 48 00:03:51,273 --> 00:03:53,275 that the worst could happen, that this could... 49 00:03:53,692 --> 00:03:55,277 rupture into violence... 50 00:03:56,695 --> 00:03:59,448 Lyndon leaps into action. 51 00:04:00,658 --> 00:04:04,453 I had it so clear in my mind: this shot of Lyndon's hand, 52 00:04:04,954 --> 00:04:06,747 lurching for the gearstick, 53 00:04:07,915 --> 00:04:09,917 pulling it into reverse and then he's out of there 54 00:04:10,292 --> 00:04:12,753 and the hills are whirling through the windows 55 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,256 as the car reverses out of the parking lot 56 00:04:15,631 --> 00:04:17,216 and guns it onto the highway. 57 00:04:18,259 --> 00:04:19,969 And the tension breaks 58 00:04:20,135 --> 00:04:22,888 but there's also this sense of high drama 59 00:04:23,514 --> 00:04:27,059 that has erupted from this confrontation, 60 00:04:27,226 --> 00:04:28,560 [drone escalates] 61 00:04:28,978 --> 00:04:31,313 even if we don't necessarily know what any of it 62 00:04:31,814 --> 00:04:32,898 signifies... 63 00:04:34,191 --> 00:04:34,900 yet. 64 00:04:38,570 --> 00:04:40,197 [drone ends] 65 00:04:42,324 --> 00:04:44,201 [distant, irritable car horn] 66 00:04:45,619 --> 00:04:47,913 So we would've followed Lyndon down the highway, 67 00:04:48,497 --> 00:04:52,626 until he finds a place to pull over and get his bearings 68 00:04:53,711 --> 00:04:58,007 and then he would have lowered his... sun visor 69 00:04:59,550 --> 00:05:04,263 and pinned to the back of it is the famous police sketch 70 00:05:05,848 --> 00:05:07,558 of the Zodiac Killer. 71 00:05:10,519 --> 00:05:12,104 Fuck... it would've been good. 72 00:05:14,023 --> 00:05:16,358 And from there we'd have gone straight into 73 00:05:16,775 --> 00:05:18,068 the title sequence, 74 00:05:19,194 --> 00:05:21,488 which kind of would've made itself. 75 00:05:22,156 --> 00:05:25,159 All these things are basically built to the same model now. 76 00:05:25,659 --> 00:05:26,869 [urgent piano] 77 00:05:27,536 --> 00:05:30,039 It's lots of layered imagery, 78 00:05:31,457 --> 00:05:33,667 so you can never quite tell what you're looking at... 79 00:05:34,877 --> 00:05:38,464 bodies and landscapes, all intermingled, 80 00:05:39,423 --> 00:05:41,008 but in a very meaningful way. 81 00:05:41,508 --> 00:05:43,427 What are we, but products of the landscape? 82 00:05:43,927 --> 00:05:44,970 [laughs] 83 00:05:45,429 --> 00:05:48,682 But with a kind of disjointed, scratchy aesthetic, 84 00:05:48,849 --> 00:05:52,061 as though it's been made by the serial killer themselves. 85 00:05:52,561 --> 00:05:54,480 [evil circus music] 86 00:05:55,314 --> 00:05:57,274 The same sorts of images pop up again and again: 87 00:05:57,441 --> 00:05:58,901 you got like... you know... 88 00:05:59,234 --> 00:06:01,487 birds taking flight 89 00:06:02,488 --> 00:06:05,949 and a shadowy man... walking away 90 00:06:07,576 --> 00:06:10,913 and kind of country-inflected music 91 00:06:11,330 --> 00:06:13,123 but with a dark edge. 92 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,587 And everything's vague and fluid, 93 00:06:18,921 --> 00:06:22,549 like it's being viewed through the fog of a dream. 94 00:06:24,718 --> 00:06:27,262 Lots of tiny text... 95 00:06:27,846 --> 00:06:30,391 that's almost too small for human eyes, 96 00:06:30,724 --> 00:06:33,394 I guess to make it look cinematic. 97 00:06:34,311 --> 00:06:35,813 And over the top of all this, 98 00:06:36,188 --> 00:06:40,025 audio that starts to tell the story of the case. 99 00:06:40,442 --> 00:06:43,821 'You can see that this does not look like grief...' 100 00:06:44,238 --> 00:06:45,781 '... does not read as grief.' 101 00:06:46,073 --> 00:06:49,535 And typically by the end, it gets weirdly talky, 102 00:06:49,827 --> 00:06:51,662 It is almost like you're watching a trailer 103 00:06:51,995 --> 00:06:53,330 for the film you're already watching. 104 00:06:53,705 --> 00:06:56,500 'It was the case that goes to the heart of our democracy.' 105 00:06:57,167 --> 00:07:00,087 'This is a murder which, unless solved, won't be forgotten.' 106 00:07:03,173 --> 00:07:05,384 It kind of sets up everything and nothing. 107 00:07:06,301 --> 00:07:08,429 All the soundbites are just people saying things like: 108 00:07:08,971 --> 00:07:12,266 'The things that went on... were beyond the imagination.' 109 00:07:12,933 --> 00:07:13,517 Or whatever. 110 00:07:13,809 --> 00:07:15,060 Like, it doesn't really tell you anything... 111 00:07:15,853 --> 00:07:18,522 but at the same time, it gives you the general vibe 112 00:07:19,815 --> 00:07:21,900 in case you've got one eye on your phone. 113 00:07:28,740 --> 00:07:30,909 [steady rumble of highway] 114 00:07:31,952 --> 00:07:34,913 So then we'd have gone back to Lyndon 115 00:07:35,706 --> 00:07:38,250 coming back down the highway after this... 116 00:07:38,834 --> 00:07:41,253 unsettling confrontation. 117 00:07:43,172 --> 00:07:46,008 Maybe still stealing the odd glance at the sketch. 118 00:07:49,970 --> 00:07:51,972 And obviously, he's realizing 119 00:07:52,347 --> 00:07:54,725 that he may have just come into contact 120 00:07:55,225 --> 00:07:58,228 with the most wanted man in America. 121 00:08:03,358 --> 00:08:05,444 But for all the adrenaline of that moment, 122 00:08:05,611 --> 00:08:09,573 he also managed to take down the guy's license plate. 123 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:13,744 So right from the off, we're getting this sense of Lyndon 124 00:08:13,911 --> 00:08:16,788 as someone who's calm in a crisis. 125 00:08:23,253 --> 00:08:27,299 I should probably give some general background on Lyndon. 126 00:08:28,467 --> 00:08:29,843 [heavy truck] 127 00:08:31,345 --> 00:08:35,766 So Lyndon was a California Highway Patrol cop 128 00:08:36,850 --> 00:08:39,937 for, I think, 30 years, maybe longer. 129 00:08:40,521 --> 00:08:44,816 And towards the end of his life, he published this book, 130 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,945 about his lifelong quest 131 00:08:48,237 --> 00:08:51,365 to bring the Zodiac Killer to justice, 132 00:08:51,990 --> 00:08:54,326 starting that day up at the rest stop. 133 00:08:56,119 --> 00:08:56,828 It's called... 134 00:08:57,579 --> 00:08:59,373 'The Zodiac Killer Cover-Up' 135 00:09:00,499 --> 00:09:02,834 a.k.a. 'The Silenced Badge'. 136 00:09:03,585 --> 00:09:06,171 And it's got this very distinctive cover 137 00:09:06,463 --> 00:09:09,091 with this bright red spider's web 138 00:09:09,633 --> 00:09:11,927 with a little crosshair symbol at the center 139 00:09:12,970 --> 00:09:15,180 because that was the Zodiac Killer's trademark. 140 00:09:17,599 --> 00:09:19,184 And I remember seeing that cover 141 00:09:19,518 --> 00:09:22,229 in thumbnail form on Amazon, 142 00:09:22,604 --> 00:09:24,815 presumably after the algorithm had 143 00:09:25,107 --> 00:09:27,234 exhausted every other true crime book on the market, 144 00:09:28,068 --> 00:09:30,237 and just being very drawn to it. 145 00:09:33,323 --> 00:09:35,200 So I bought the book, 146 00:09:35,617 --> 00:09:38,203 read it kind of absentmindedly at first, 147 00:09:38,745 --> 00:09:40,455 but I remember being struck by how 148 00:09:40,747 --> 00:09:43,542 incredibly cinematic a lot of it was. 149 00:09:44,501 --> 00:09:47,129 It feels like it's been written in the mold 150 00:09:47,546 --> 00:09:49,214 of a true crime documentary. 151 00:09:51,133 --> 00:09:52,676 And so even though I'd never really imagined 152 00:09:53,093 --> 00:09:54,928 making a true crime doc, 153 00:09:55,887 --> 00:09:58,849 working in documentary these days, true crime's got this... 154 00:09:59,224 --> 00:10:01,810 gravitational pull. 155 00:10:03,979 --> 00:10:06,356 Eventually, you just... give in to it. 156 00:10:07,816 --> 00:10:09,568 [distant highway] 157 00:10:10,152 --> 00:10:13,905 So I started trying to get the rights to the book, 158 00:10:14,948 --> 00:10:17,993 from Lyndon's family. 159 00:10:19,161 --> 00:10:21,622 And it all seemed to be going well. 160 00:10:21,788 --> 00:10:25,292 We were deep into contract negotiations 161 00:10:25,626 --> 00:10:28,128 and starting pre-production. 162 00:10:29,755 --> 00:10:31,798 I even went out to Vallejo 163 00:10:32,424 --> 00:10:36,511 in the Bay Area, where it all took place, and started... 164 00:10:37,471 --> 00:10:39,598 scouting around for locations, 165 00:10:40,140 --> 00:10:43,977 speaking to people I thought might make good interviewees. 166 00:10:46,229 --> 00:10:48,982 So I was actually out there, working on it, 167 00:10:49,524 --> 00:10:51,860 when I got the email to say 168 00:10:52,235 --> 00:10:54,696 that Lyndon's family had pulled out 169 00:10:55,238 --> 00:10:57,908 and that we weren't getting the rights to the book. 170 00:11:04,039 --> 00:11:07,084 And I still don't know entirely why... 171 00:11:07,501 --> 00:11:11,421 whether it was a case of them wanting more money or more... 172 00:11:11,755 --> 00:11:13,840 control over the finished product, or just... 173 00:11:14,383 --> 00:11:16,593 someone else swooping in 174 00:11:17,469 --> 00:11:20,597 promising to make it the next Tiger King, or whatever. 175 00:11:23,517 --> 00:11:25,185 [quiet room] 176 00:11:25,727 --> 00:11:29,606 But it was honestly kind of devastating, by that point, 177 00:11:30,816 --> 00:11:33,610 because I really had figured the whole thing out, 178 00:11:34,820 --> 00:11:38,448 right down to the locations for the re-enactments. 179 00:11:42,494 --> 00:11:44,079 The way I was picturing it 180 00:11:44,371 --> 00:11:46,581 the majority of the investigation was going to be 181 00:11:46,998 --> 00:11:48,875 based in Lyndon's home 182 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,546 or what we would've been passing off as Lyndon's home, 183 00:11:53,755 --> 00:11:56,174 where, unable to put this 184 00:11:56,341 --> 00:11:58,719 confrontation at the rest stop out of his mind, 185 00:11:59,261 --> 00:12:03,598 he starts to mount this kind of freelance investigation. 186 00:12:06,351 --> 00:12:08,437 And at first, he's just laying it all out, 187 00:12:09,271 --> 00:12:12,065 and I think we could have had him literally laying it all out 188 00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:13,316 across the table 189 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:16,528 and seeing if the pieces fit together. 190 00:12:17,946 --> 00:12:19,656 But as time goes on and he becomes 191 00:12:19,823 --> 00:12:23,243 more and more immersed in this case, 192 00:12:24,244 --> 00:12:28,039 we'd have filled the space with more and more stuff: 193 00:12:28,498 --> 00:12:32,002 pin boards and photocopies, library books. 194 00:12:34,296 --> 00:12:36,590 Anyway, he's got the license plate number 195 00:12:36,757 --> 00:12:39,968 so the first thing he does is run a check on that 196 00:12:40,385 --> 00:12:43,221 and comes back with the name: 197 00:12:44,514 --> 00:12:46,641 George Russell Tucker. 198 00:12:48,852 --> 00:12:51,313 Classic serial killer name. 199 00:12:51,605 --> 00:12:52,939 Three names. 200 00:12:53,398 --> 00:12:54,399 [laughs] 201 00:12:54,691 --> 00:12:57,736 Apparently that's because the media always uses 202 00:12:57,903 --> 00:13:01,656 people's middle names after they become serial killers, 203 00:13:02,073 --> 00:13:05,786 so they don't get confused with anyone else with the same name, 204 00:13:05,952 --> 00:13:07,496 the same first and second name. 205 00:13:08,538 --> 00:13:11,082 But as a result, the second you say someone's middle name, 206 00:13:11,249 --> 00:13:12,375 they sound like a serial killer. 207 00:13:12,542 --> 00:13:14,252 It works both ways. 208 00:13:15,921 --> 00:13:18,048 And then, along with the name, 209 00:13:18,340 --> 00:13:21,676 he gets a photograph of the guy. 210 00:13:22,219 --> 00:13:25,680 We'd have had, inevitably, the moment where 211 00:13:25,972 --> 00:13:29,392 the envelope arrives from the DMV and he pulls out 212 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,187 the photocopy of the driving license, 213 00:13:32,604 --> 00:13:35,106 slides it alongside the police sketch, 214 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,235 and needless to say, 215 00:13:38,401 --> 00:13:40,779 the similarities are striking. 216 00:13:42,072 --> 00:13:45,075 And again, we'd be hearing Lyndon's words from the book, 217 00:13:45,951 --> 00:13:47,869 which capture that sense that he's kind of 218 00:13:48,036 --> 00:13:51,832 approaching this with a degree of skepticism 219 00:13:52,290 --> 00:13:56,586 and it's only actually the sheer weight of the evidence 220 00:13:57,087 --> 00:14:01,174 that means he's duty bound to look further. 221 00:14:03,218 --> 00:14:05,262 [sinister drone] 222 00:14:05,929 --> 00:14:07,347 So he says: 223 00:14:09,766 --> 00:14:12,727 'The horn-rimmed glasses were very prominent.' 224 00:14:14,479 --> 00:14:16,189 'The shape of his hair... 225 00:14:16,731 --> 00:14:19,192 'was nearly a perfect match.' 226 00:14:20,861 --> 00:14:23,572 'A mad dog killer was on the loose' 227 00:14:24,865 --> 00:14:27,075 'and apparently living nearby.' 228 00:14:28,410 --> 00:14:30,787 'Very close indeed.' 229 00:14:38,128 --> 00:14:39,963 [drone eases] 230 00:14:41,715 --> 00:14:44,968 It wouldn't have been me reading all of this, obviously. 231 00:14:46,052 --> 00:14:49,639 We'd have hired an actor with a voice more similar to Lyndon's. 232 00:14:52,309 --> 00:14:55,478 But actually, we probably would have left it kind of ambiguous 233 00:14:55,812 --> 00:14:58,356 as to whether it was an actor, or Lyndon himself. 234 00:15:00,984 --> 00:15:05,030 If you show a tape player the first time you hear the voice, 235 00:15:05,572 --> 00:15:08,658 you can kind of just let people draw their own conclusions. 236 00:15:12,203 --> 00:15:14,205 Apparently in the industry, they call those shots... 237 00:15:14,623 --> 00:15:16,416 'evocative B-roll' 238 00:15:18,585 --> 00:15:22,714 You know, like those standalone images 239 00:15:23,924 --> 00:15:26,134 that sort of evoke a scene 240 00:15:26,301 --> 00:15:28,178 without actually showing much of it. 241 00:15:30,347 --> 00:15:31,765 Like sometimes they'll have people in them, 242 00:15:31,932 --> 00:15:34,809 but they're always just at the edge of frame 243 00:15:34,976 --> 00:15:37,729 or kind of falling out of focus 244 00:15:37,896 --> 00:15:39,731 in some improbable way. 245 00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:43,026 'Bactors'. 246 00:15:43,860 --> 00:15:45,362 That's what someone told me they're called. 247 00:15:46,404 --> 00:15:47,948 Because you can only ever see their backs. 248 00:15:50,158 --> 00:15:52,702 But I see why they do it: it is almost like the more... 249 00:15:53,078 --> 00:15:55,413 generic the image... 250 00:15:56,164 --> 00:16:00,585 the more effective it is as visual shorthand. 251 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,594 Like there was this other bit of evidence against Tucker, 252 00:16:10,220 --> 00:16:13,098 related to a boot print 253 00:16:13,390 --> 00:16:16,059 that was found at one of the Zodiac crime scenes, 254 00:16:16,893 --> 00:16:18,603 and if that's the only relevant detail, 255 00:16:18,770 --> 00:16:21,314 you don't really need the whole crime scene. 256 00:16:21,481 --> 00:16:26,444 You just need that one shot of the boot print... 257 00:16:28,321 --> 00:16:29,280 in the mud. 258 00:16:32,742 --> 00:16:35,036 Maybe even like a flashbulb... 259 00:16:36,454 --> 00:16:38,832 like it's a crime scene photograph being taken. 260 00:16:40,375 --> 00:16:41,751 Did they use flashbulbs... 261 00:16:42,794 --> 00:16:44,337 in the 60s? 262 00:16:45,213 --> 00:16:47,674 We'd have gone with it anyway, it's very dramatic. 263 00:16:48,091 --> 00:16:50,427 Like, the big flash of the bulb, 264 00:16:50,593 --> 00:16:51,386 we see the boot print, 265 00:16:52,053 --> 00:16:53,930 and maybe the bulb falls to the ground 266 00:16:54,222 --> 00:16:56,307 and smashes next to the boot print. 267 00:16:57,726 --> 00:16:59,019 You can see it, can't you? 268 00:17:00,687 --> 00:17:02,605 [road rumbles steadily] 269 00:17:03,773 --> 00:17:06,192 And then the next scene would have been Lyndon 270 00:17:06,651 --> 00:17:10,030 bringing his findings to his superiors 271 00:17:10,739 --> 00:17:15,118 or to the team leading the Zodiac investigation in Vallejo 272 00:17:18,621 --> 00:17:22,959 and they agree to call Tucker in for questioning. 273 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:31,801 This is actually a library, 274 00:17:32,343 --> 00:17:33,720 not a police station. 275 00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:36,306 It's much easier to film at a library 276 00:17:36,765 --> 00:17:38,558 so we were gonna do the exteriors 277 00:17:38,725 --> 00:17:40,143 and some of the interiors here. 278 00:17:42,687 --> 00:17:46,066 And the way this works in the book is a little convoluted 279 00:17:46,232 --> 00:17:49,986 because obviously this wasn't Lyndon's jurisdiction. 280 00:17:50,612 --> 00:17:52,447 I don't think he was actually present 281 00:17:52,906 --> 00:17:54,824 when Tucker was brought in for questioning. 282 00:17:55,617 --> 00:17:59,662 But dramatically, we would have wanted him there. 283 00:18:00,955 --> 00:18:03,333 So I think we would have at least implied that he was there 284 00:18:03,625 --> 00:18:06,377 without going so far as to actually state it. 285 00:18:08,171 --> 00:18:10,173 In fact, I always imagined Lyndon 286 00:18:10,340 --> 00:18:11,591 behind a two-way mirror 287 00:18:15,011 --> 00:18:19,599 and that he would be monitoring this interrogation 288 00:18:20,058 --> 00:18:23,686 from the relative security of the next room. 289 00:18:27,232 --> 00:18:29,192 So they bring Tucker in 290 00:18:29,484 --> 00:18:35,073 and they ask him for a series of basic personal details: 291 00:18:35,615 --> 00:18:37,367 full name, address... 292 00:18:38,118 --> 00:18:40,453 But for our purposes, this is just an excuse for Lyndon 293 00:18:40,620 --> 00:18:44,499 to finally get like a real close up look at the guy, 294 00:18:45,083 --> 00:18:49,379 not in a moment of heightened tension like at the rest area, 295 00:18:49,671 --> 00:18:52,632 but now in a cool and collected way, where he can actually 296 00:18:52,799 --> 00:18:56,344 scrutinize the man who's physically sat in front of him. 297 00:18:58,972 --> 00:19:01,558 And at the same time, we'd have tried to 298 00:19:01,850 --> 00:19:04,769 fill in some of who Tucker actually was. 299 00:19:08,148 --> 00:19:10,608 As far as I could tell, there's no actual footage of him, 300 00:19:10,775 --> 00:19:11,776 unfortunately, 301 00:19:12,443 --> 00:19:12,819 but 302 00:19:13,987 --> 00:19:18,741 there's those 4 or 5 bits of home movie footage 303 00:19:19,033 --> 00:19:21,494 ofAmerican families in suburbia of that era 304 00:19:21,786 --> 00:19:23,204 that you see in every documentary 305 00:19:23,371 --> 00:19:24,873 because they can stand in for... 306 00:19:25,415 --> 00:19:27,625 the whole idea ofAmerican childhood. 307 00:19:28,585 --> 00:19:29,711 So that would have done the job. 308 00:19:30,962 --> 00:19:32,297 [laughs] 309 00:19:34,007 --> 00:19:36,593 But the point here is that Lyndon's actually getting 310 00:19:36,885 --> 00:19:38,636 a real sense of the guy 311 00:19:39,387 --> 00:19:40,722 and asking, 312 00:19:41,431 --> 00:19:44,475 could this actually be the Zodiac Killer? 313 00:19:46,978 --> 00:19:48,938 And of course, the answer would have been yes 314 00:19:49,898 --> 00:19:51,357 because we would've 315 00:19:51,524 --> 00:19:55,486 staged this entirely to confirm those suspicions 316 00:19:55,653 --> 00:20:00,992 so all the classic interrogative signifiers: 317 00:20:02,493 --> 00:20:04,746 cigarette perched on an ashtray, 318 00:20:05,747 --> 00:20:07,498 reel-to-reel tape recorder, 319 00:20:08,917 --> 00:20:10,960 ticking clock on the wall, 320 00:20:12,879 --> 00:20:14,505 the interrogation lamp. 321 00:20:16,424 --> 00:20:18,343 Do you picture an interrogation lamp 322 00:20:18,509 --> 00:20:20,386 like a desk lamp or a hanging lamp? 323 00:20:21,137 --> 00:20:22,055 A hanging lamp. 324 00:20:23,264 --> 00:20:24,390 And they're always swinging. 325 00:20:25,391 --> 00:20:26,017 [laughs] 326 00:20:26,684 --> 00:20:27,727 Why are they swinging? 327 00:20:28,311 --> 00:20:30,104 Is the implication that it's got tense? 328 00:20:30,271 --> 00:20:31,356 Someone's knocked the lamp. 329 00:20:31,814 --> 00:20:33,733 The bad cop stood to his feet 330 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:35,693 and knocked the lamp and it's gone swinging. 331 00:20:36,986 --> 00:20:38,363 [laughs] 332 00:20:39,322 --> 00:20:42,033 See, I'm not saying that having seen a lot of these things 333 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,452 is all the training I would have needed to make one, 334 00:20:44,619 --> 00:20:46,329 but I do think it would have got me pretty far. 335 00:20:49,457 --> 00:20:52,627 [music pulses, like a faulty air conditioner] 336 00:20:53,753 --> 00:20:56,589 [slow, rhythmic metallic thuds] 337 00:20:58,341 --> 00:21:02,595 What happened next would have taken things up a notch, 338 00:21:03,763 --> 00:21:05,223 dramatically speaking. 339 00:21:08,893 --> 00:21:11,312 But actually, it's kind of... 340 00:21:12,522 --> 00:21:15,358 hard to know what I can 341 00:21:15,525 --> 00:21:18,152 and can't talk about here. 342 00:21:20,071 --> 00:21:21,072 Legally. 343 00:21:23,825 --> 00:21:26,619 A lot of what I've described thus far, 344 00:21:27,578 --> 00:21:29,539 there's multiple sources for. 345 00:21:29,706 --> 00:21:33,459 So like, the scene at the beginning in the rest area... 346 00:21:34,502 --> 00:21:36,587 Lyndon filed a police report 347 00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:39,924 so some of the details of that are in there. 348 00:21:40,925 --> 00:21:42,093 He gave interviews 349 00:21:42,260 --> 00:21:45,096 over the course of his life, where he talked about it. 350 00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:48,558 So there's these various sources 351 00:21:49,392 --> 00:21:52,687 diluting the extent to which we're drawing from... 352 00:21:53,187 --> 00:21:54,147 Lyndon's book 353 00:21:54,939 --> 00:21:57,358 which obviously, we don't have the rights to. 354 00:22:00,862 --> 00:22:03,573 The tricky thing is when you get to sections like this 355 00:22:03,740 --> 00:22:07,327 where the book really is the only source. 356 00:22:09,662 --> 00:22:11,122 And so there's kind of a limit 357 00:22:12,290 --> 00:22:13,583 to what I can say. 358 00:22:18,504 --> 00:22:20,673 But without getting into it too much, 359 00:22:21,632 --> 00:22:23,676 essentially, Lyndon alleges 360 00:22:23,843 --> 00:22:26,137 a kind of conspiracy 361 00:22:27,180 --> 00:22:29,891 in which Tucker was able 362 00:22:30,183 --> 00:22:35,521 to exert influence within the Solano County Sheriff's Office 363 00:22:36,773 --> 00:22:39,984 and basically get the investigation shut down. 364 00:22:43,696 --> 00:22:46,366 So this would have been a kind of montage 365 00:22:46,699 --> 00:22:50,995 where word is making its way through the corridors of power. 366 00:22:53,081 --> 00:22:54,082 You know, like... 367 00:22:54,415 --> 00:22:57,418 phone call begets phone call begets phone call 368 00:22:58,127 --> 00:23:02,590 until it reaches the highest authority, 369 00:23:02,757 --> 00:23:04,801 the sheriff of the county. 370 00:23:06,761 --> 00:23:08,805 And we'd throw in a few interview moments 371 00:23:08,971 --> 00:23:12,392 where people are like, 'oh, power in Vallejo...' 372 00:23:13,142 --> 00:23:13,935 'it's all about...' 373 00:23:14,852 --> 00:23:15,812 'who you know.' 374 00:23:19,941 --> 00:23:23,820 Finally, Lyndon hears that word has come down from the sheriff, 375 00:23:25,113 --> 00:23:27,907 and obviously it's not what he wants to hear. 376 00:23:28,616 --> 00:23:31,077 I'll read the actual quote from the book... 377 00:23:33,246 --> 00:23:35,206 because it gives you a sense of the 378 00:23:36,374 --> 00:23:38,960 conspiratorial tone of the thing. 379 00:23:41,295 --> 00:23:43,297 [pages rustling] 380 00:23:44,841 --> 00:23:46,217 The sheriff's message is: 381 00:23:48,052 --> 00:23:49,345 [dramatic drone] 382 00:23:49,679 --> 00:23:51,514 'Belay all such orders' 383 00:23:53,349 --> 00:23:56,102 'and forget about George Tucker completely.' 384 00:23:58,354 --> 00:23:59,814 'I don't care who he is.' 385 00:24:01,149 --> 00:24:03,484 'I am telling you to destroy your notes' 386 00:24:04,193 --> 00:24:05,528 'and burn your files.' 387 00:24:07,238 --> 00:24:09,407 'I never want to hear the man's name again.' 388 00:24:11,117 --> 00:24:11,617 'Ever.' 389 00:24:12,493 --> 00:24:14,871 [satanic choir roars] 390 00:24:15,621 --> 00:24:16,873 [timpani drum roll] 391 00:24:17,373 --> 00:24:19,792 [satanic choir roars] 392 00:24:20,710 --> 00:24:22,003 [timpani drum roll] 393 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:24,589 [satanic choir roars] 394 00:24:25,590 --> 00:24:26,883 [timpani drum roll] 395 00:24:27,049 --> 00:24:28,926 [satanic choir roars] 396 00:24:29,427 --> 00:24:30,678 [timpani hit] 397 00:24:31,929 --> 00:24:33,181 [final timpani hit] 398 00:24:34,182 --> 00:24:37,977 [drums and choir melt away into drone] 399 00:24:41,189 --> 00:24:43,191 [drone dissolves] 400 00:24:44,609 --> 00:24:47,778 So that's good... dramatic stuff, right? 401 00:24:48,946 --> 00:24:53,201 I presume the 'burn your files' thing was not literal 402 00:24:54,327 --> 00:24:56,746 but obviously we'd have had to make it literal. 403 00:24:56,913 --> 00:24:59,582 That's too good to pass up on. 404 00:25:01,501 --> 00:25:04,712 I'm imagining all this stuff that we've seen earlier, 405 00:25:04,879 --> 00:25:07,256 like the printout of Tucker's name 406 00:25:07,423 --> 00:25:09,717 or the Zodiac police sketch, 407 00:25:10,635 --> 00:25:13,304 all of this stuff, all of this key evidence 408 00:25:13,596 --> 00:25:15,932 being swallowed up by flames 409 00:25:16,349 --> 00:25:21,729 as we see the scale of the perversion of justice at hand. 410 00:25:24,524 --> 00:25:26,859 And through it all, there's this sense that 411 00:25:27,026 --> 00:25:27,568 you know 412 00:25:28,361 --> 00:25:30,363 not only was Lyndon on to something, 413 00:25:32,073 --> 00:25:34,534 but he actually got too close to the truth. 414 00:25:38,913 --> 00:25:40,289 Alright, end of act one. 415 00:25:44,168 --> 00:25:46,629 [traffic rumble, cars passing] 416 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,342 So the next sequence would have been a kind of... 417 00:25:52,134 --> 00:25:54,971 dust-settling moment. 418 00:25:55,513 --> 00:25:57,515 Lyndon's off the case 419 00:25:57,807 --> 00:26:03,104 and so by default, he's back to the daily grind: 420 00:26:04,146 --> 00:26:06,065 routine traffic stops, 421 00:26:06,691 --> 00:26:12,154 seeing the normality - the banality - of life in Vallejo. 422 00:26:13,072 --> 00:26:14,115 Oh, wait, this is amazing. 423 00:26:15,157 --> 00:26:17,326 [motorcycle revving] 424 00:26:20,496 --> 00:26:22,206 [laughs] 425 00:26:24,292 --> 00:26:28,796 But for him it's instilled with a real sense of of anti-climax. 426 00:26:29,130 --> 00:26:32,341 He's gone from being the cop who's going to solve 427 00:26:32,675 --> 00:26:34,969 the most high-profile murder case in the world 428 00:26:35,261 --> 00:26:38,347 to being the cop who hands out parking tickets. 429 00:26:41,934 --> 00:26:43,227 But the point would have been, 430 00:26:43,394 --> 00:26:47,356 and maybe we'd have had some of our interviewees spell it out: 431 00:26:47,898 --> 00:26:51,527 that that banality is really just a veneer, 432 00:26:51,944 --> 00:26:54,530 masking something more sinister. 433 00:26:58,284 --> 00:27:00,244 And actually, getting people to say that, doesn't really 434 00:27:00,411 --> 00:27:01,537 take much work. 435 00:27:02,955 --> 00:27:05,124 There's two things people ever say about 436 00:27:05,291 --> 00:27:07,501 the places where these sorts of crimes happened. 437 00:27:08,794 --> 00:27:11,005 Like, oh, it was idyllic. 438 00:27:11,547 --> 00:27:12,882 'Waterloo was a great place.' 439 00:27:13,257 --> 00:27:15,468 Kids played out in the street. You didn't lock your doors. 440 00:27:15,801 --> 00:27:17,345 'Kids rode their bikes.' 441 00:27:18,012 --> 00:27:20,681 'It's just a very quiet neighborhood.' 442 00:27:21,015 --> 00:27:23,392 'It's a very isolated little community.' 443 00:27:23,893 --> 00:27:25,561 'It's a beautiful place...' 444 00:27:26,896 --> 00:27:27,772 'but...' 445 00:27:29,148 --> 00:27:30,524 But it had a dark side. 446 00:27:31,651 --> 00:27:33,319 '... there's a dark side.' 447 00:27:37,323 --> 00:27:39,241 And so that shift would have led us 448 00:27:39,784 --> 00:27:41,702 inexorably towards... 449 00:27:42,203 --> 00:27:43,537 Tucker's house. 450 00:27:44,622 --> 00:27:47,750 [eerie drone] 451 00:27:57,426 --> 00:27:59,887 [airplane, faint birds] 452 00:28:03,474 --> 00:28:06,727 I think we would have had it so the first time he drives by, 453 00:28:06,894 --> 00:28:08,521 it's almost by accident. 454 00:28:08,688 --> 00:28:09,230 Like he's... 455 00:28:09,647 --> 00:28:11,148 He is driving by on one of these routine calls 456 00:28:11,315 --> 00:28:12,983 He is driving by on one of these routine calls 457 00:28:13,275 --> 00:28:15,903 and happens to see Tucker... 458 00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:16,862 maybe like... 459 00:28:17,822 --> 00:28:19,073 emptying his trash or... 460 00:28:20,074 --> 00:28:21,283 parking his car. 461 00:28:21,701 --> 00:28:22,451 [car engine quietens] 462 00:28:23,494 --> 00:28:24,036 [door lock clicks] 463 00:28:25,621 --> 00:28:27,748 [drone fades] 464 00:28:28,791 --> 00:28:32,086 And is reminded, like, oh... 465 00:28:32,253 --> 00:28:34,088 as long as I do nothing, 466 00:28:34,547 --> 00:28:37,007 this guy is still out in the world 467 00:28:37,341 --> 00:28:39,802 potentially committing further crimes. 468 00:28:40,803 --> 00:28:42,263 [distant wind chimes] 469 00:28:42,972 --> 00:28:47,184 But what's more, the way he describes the house is like 470 00:28:47,601 --> 00:28:50,563 this perfect villain's lair. 471 00:28:51,105 --> 00:28:53,065 [pages rustling] 472 00:28:53,232 --> 00:28:54,525 He says its... 473 00:28:54,817 --> 00:28:58,779 'surrounded by an unusual grove of whispering pines' 474 00:28:59,321 --> 00:29:01,157 and that... 475 00:29:01,615 --> 00:29:05,661 'no stranger's eye can pierce its foreboding veil'. 476 00:29:09,582 --> 00:29:12,042 And the sense would've been that his suspicions were 477 00:29:12,334 --> 00:29:15,087 really starting to solidify here, 478 00:29:17,673 --> 00:29:20,050 really just based on seeing this... 479 00:29:21,343 --> 00:29:22,887 fucking creepy house. 480 00:29:24,388 --> 00:29:27,600 It's intuition more than anything else. 481 00:29:32,021 --> 00:29:34,690 This isn't the actual house, incidentally. 482 00:29:35,316 --> 00:29:37,443 The actual house isn't anywhere near spooky enough. 483 00:29:41,322 --> 00:29:44,658 Anyway, I don't know if we would've needed some moment 484 00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:49,330 that it crossed into... actually sinister. 485 00:29:49,830 --> 00:29:51,874 Oh, in fact I tell you what it would have been... 486 00:29:53,083 --> 00:29:57,296 After a few days of staking the place out, 487 00:29:57,463 --> 00:30:00,007 Lyndon discovered these... 488 00:30:02,092 --> 00:30:04,261 bits of graffiti around the house. 489 00:30:04,428 --> 00:30:06,055 Let me read from the book again. 490 00:30:06,222 --> 00:30:08,182 [pages rustling] 491 00:30:09,975 --> 00:30:11,894 [eerie drone resumes] 492 00:30:12,686 --> 00:30:16,774 'One day, I noticed something very strange.' 493 00:30:18,192 --> 00:30:20,569 'Someone had taken white paint' 494 00:30:21,070 --> 00:30:23,906 'and painted an inverted cross with arrows' 495 00:30:24,365 --> 00:30:27,284 'on the telephone pole on the right side of the house.' 496 00:30:29,453 --> 00:30:31,038 'Then Io and behold,' 497 00:30:31,497 --> 00:30:34,583 'on a concrete water cistern to the left of the house,' 498 00:30:35,334 --> 00:30:37,837 'was painted a large hatchet.' 499 00:30:41,632 --> 00:30:44,093 And because he describes finding these symbols 500 00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:49,473 as though he's unearthing some dark, occult mystery, 501 00:30:50,391 --> 00:30:53,686 I always imagined them hidden behind reeds, or something, 502 00:30:54,103 --> 00:30:56,605 like Lyndon had to pull back something 503 00:30:57,273 --> 00:31:00,067 to see these ominous symbols 504 00:31:00,776 --> 00:31:03,028 painted around this creepy house. 505 00:31:06,156 --> 00:31:08,868 [drone evaporates into sound of the dusk] 506 00:31:10,244 --> 00:31:11,370 Um... 507 00:31:11,996 --> 00:31:15,291 I mean, there is a third one, that we would have had to lose, 508 00:31:15,457 --> 00:31:17,251 because the third one depicts... 509 00:31:17,835 --> 00:31:22,214 'two nude males engaged in explicit homosexual activity' 510 00:31:23,632 --> 00:31:28,220 and the photograph of this in the book is... 511 00:31:30,598 --> 00:31:32,766 to Lyndon, I think, very sinister. 512 00:31:33,225 --> 00:31:38,147 To a contemporary viewer, I think, slightly less ominous 513 00:31:38,314 --> 00:31:39,648 than the hatchet. 514 00:31:39,815 --> 00:31:41,066 [laughs] 515 00:31:42,067 --> 00:31:44,612 We probably would have taken it out, in the interest 516 00:31:44,778 --> 00:31:47,281 of trying to make the theory convincing. 517 00:31:48,407 --> 00:31:50,034 [eerie drone returns] 518 00:31:50,784 --> 00:31:52,912 You can still deploy 519 00:31:53,078 --> 00:31:54,747 someone just having a bad vibe 520 00:31:55,289 --> 00:31:56,874 and living in a creepy house 521 00:31:58,083 --> 00:32:00,711 but today's Netflix viewers 522 00:32:00,878 --> 00:32:05,633 don't get as worked up about someone being gay, potentially. 523 00:32:06,884 --> 00:32:09,094 Or bi, actually. He doesn't say he was gay. 524 00:32:09,261 --> 00:32:13,265 He says that Tucker was bi. 525 00:32:13,641 --> 00:32:17,770 Although adorably, he actually says that he was 'AC/DC', 526 00:32:19,396 --> 00:32:22,274 which is a wonderfully 1950s way of putting it. 527 00:32:24,568 --> 00:32:26,695 [drone evaporates] 528 00:32:28,656 --> 00:32:31,617 [birdsong, distant road] 529 00:32:36,288 --> 00:32:39,583 So next Lyndon starts to build this... 530 00:32:39,917 --> 00:32:41,001 crack team 531 00:32:42,503 --> 00:32:46,966 assembled from across Vallejo society 532 00:32:48,008 --> 00:32:51,261 in order to aid his investigation into Tucker 533 00:32:53,263 --> 00:32:55,391 which is kind of amazing for our purposes, 534 00:32:55,557 --> 00:32:57,643 because that's already like something out of a film. 535 00:32:59,269 --> 00:33:02,773 And this group consists of him, obviously, 536 00:33:03,148 --> 00:33:06,860 and a few of his friends from law enforcement, 537 00:33:07,152 --> 00:33:10,364 from the California Highway Patrol and other agencies, 538 00:33:11,365 --> 00:33:14,159 as well as various people from local government, 539 00:33:15,786 --> 00:33:19,206 and then, weirdly, Lyndon's minister... 540 00:33:21,041 --> 00:33:22,376 a guy called Ernie, 541 00:33:23,002 --> 00:33:26,046 who was the minister at the local United Methodist Church. 542 00:33:26,672 --> 00:33:30,092 And in my head, I pictured them meeting in a diner, 543 00:33:30,801 --> 00:33:33,512 somewhere unremarkable, somewhere everyday, 544 00:33:34,346 --> 00:33:36,724 where they can slowly start to build 545 00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:38,934 this case against Tucker. 546 00:33:40,936 --> 00:33:42,980 And a few of them are still alive, 547 00:33:43,439 --> 00:33:44,398 so I was imagining 548 00:33:44,565 --> 00:33:47,818 getting them down to the diner and filming them... 549 00:33:48,318 --> 00:33:49,737 getting out of their cars, 550 00:33:50,237 --> 00:33:51,780 their boots coming down on the tarmac, 551 00:33:52,281 --> 00:33:52,948 [heavy footstep] 552 00:33:53,323 --> 00:33:56,493 sitting them down in a booth and getting them to 553 00:33:56,910 --> 00:34:00,748 play the role of the hot-shot detective. 554 00:34:02,041 --> 00:34:03,000 You know what I mean? 555 00:34:03,167 --> 00:34:07,129 I feel like all these figures of authority, 556 00:34:08,130 --> 00:34:09,339 the second you point a camera at them, 557 00:34:09,506 --> 00:34:10,674 they just know what to do. 558 00:34:11,175 --> 00:34:14,011 You know, they know the image of a cop 559 00:34:14,178 --> 00:34:15,429 in a true crime show. 560 00:34:16,180 --> 00:34:17,139 [heavy footstep] 561 00:34:17,306 --> 00:34:19,641 And so without prompting, they walk in the right way 562 00:34:19,808 --> 00:34:22,352 and they talk about themselves in the right way. 563 00:34:22,895 --> 00:34:25,814 'What I figured out at an early age in the Bureau is...' 564 00:34:26,231 --> 00:34:29,610 'you push it, and then... you keep pushing.' 565 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:31,987 Even just the nicknames! 566 00:34:32,529 --> 00:34:36,575 They all have these clearly self-anointed nicknames 567 00:34:36,992 --> 00:34:39,328 and about half of them seem to be 'the bulldog'. 568 00:34:39,661 --> 00:34:40,704 'What was your nickname?' 569 00:34:40,871 --> 00:34:41,455 'The Bulldog' 570 00:34:41,747 --> 00:34:42,331 'Bulldog' 571 00:34:42,498 --> 00:34:43,165 'The Bulldogs' 572 00:34:47,086 --> 00:34:49,505 It's like there's no direction required. 573 00:34:51,757 --> 00:34:54,051 [distant cars] 574 00:34:56,470 --> 00:35:00,641 And I was imagining these interviews as a springboard 575 00:35:01,225 --> 00:35:04,937 for discussing each of the killings in more detail. 576 00:35:05,437 --> 00:35:06,939 [beep of reversing truck] 577 00:35:07,356 --> 00:35:10,442 You know, someone ominously references one of the crimes, 578 00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:14,822 and we cut to the microfiche in the archive, whizzing back to 579 00:35:14,988 --> 00:35:15,697 [mechanism whirrs] 580 00:35:15,989 --> 00:35:18,117 'July 4th, 1969'. 581 00:35:20,494 --> 00:35:21,495 I think that actually is... 582 00:35:21,662 --> 00:35:22,996 the date of one of the Zodiac crimes. 583 00:35:23,330 --> 00:35:25,833 This is how embedded it is in my head. 584 00:35:28,961 --> 00:35:31,130 And then they discuss the facts of the crime 585 00:35:31,296 --> 00:35:33,340 and how Tucker might be implicated. 586 00:35:39,096 --> 00:35:40,055 And meanwhile, 587 00:35:40,347 --> 00:35:43,809 our 'evocative B-roll' is going into overdrive. 588 00:35:44,143 --> 00:35:46,353 All the classic staples: 589 00:35:46,979 --> 00:35:48,063 the gun... 590 00:35:48,605 --> 00:35:50,691 rising up towards the camera, 591 00:35:51,483 --> 00:35:54,695 shell casings clattering to the ground, 592 00:35:57,072 --> 00:35:59,032 crime scene tape... 593 00:35:59,575 --> 00:36:02,119 stretching out into the distance, 594 00:36:03,954 --> 00:36:04,830 Or... 595 00:36:05,789 --> 00:36:06,790 blood, 596 00:36:07,082 --> 00:36:08,709 pooling on the ground. 597 00:36:10,294 --> 00:36:13,380 Maybe a hand reaching in to touch it, 598 00:36:14,464 --> 00:36:16,967 as though to check it's actually blood. 599 00:36:18,302 --> 00:36:19,636 [car suspension rattles] 600 00:36:21,597 --> 00:36:26,059 Plus all the actual police photographs of the crime scene. 601 00:36:27,352 --> 00:36:27,686 Which now 602 00:36:28,020 --> 00:36:30,898 I feel like, even recently, you could just show those, 603 00:36:31,064 --> 00:36:32,733 and now everything's so jazzy. 604 00:36:34,276 --> 00:36:35,819 Like, at the very least, now they have to be placed 605 00:36:35,986 --> 00:36:39,114 in a kind of 3D environment 606 00:36:40,866 --> 00:36:43,785 or be falling in and out of focus 607 00:36:44,161 --> 00:36:47,748 with a bit of dust dancing across their surface, 608 00:36:49,249 --> 00:36:51,001 and the thing I increasingly see now is 609 00:36:51,168 --> 00:36:53,629 they've taken the crime scene photograph and they've... 610 00:36:54,254 --> 00:36:57,341 created a three-dimensional image from it. 611 00:36:58,050 --> 00:36:59,760 You know, it'll be like a layered thing. 612 00:37:01,136 --> 00:37:03,347 It's like you're moving through the space 613 00:37:03,764 --> 00:37:06,975 so you can be not just 614 00:37:07,434 --> 00:37:10,979 at the place where a horrific, brutal murder took place, 615 00:37:11,313 --> 00:37:16,318 but actually traveling through it, like on Google Street View. 616 00:37:18,028 --> 00:37:19,154 It's probably good work 617 00:37:19,321 --> 00:37:22,574 for some graphic artist somewhere, 618 00:37:23,283 --> 00:37:24,993 someone who knows After Effects. 619 00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:30,165 You must just... 620 00:37:30,332 --> 00:37:31,625 forget what you're looking at. 621 00:37:33,669 --> 00:37:35,254 [distant cars] 622 00:37:37,005 --> 00:37:38,840 And so between all of that, we'd... 623 00:37:39,383 --> 00:37:42,427 fill in the general contours of the case. 624 00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:46,306 [intercom blip] 625 00:37:46,473 --> 00:37:48,809 PRODUCER: Do you wanna fill in some of that now? 626 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:52,729 Uh... 627 00:37:53,772 --> 00:37:54,773 No. 628 00:37:56,441 --> 00:37:57,859 PRODUCER: Okay. 629 00:37:58,235 --> 00:37:59,319 [laughs] 630 00:37:59,778 --> 00:38:01,238 No, not at all. 631 00:38:01,571 --> 00:38:03,407 I feel like that's... 632 00:38:04,283 --> 00:38:07,244 the only saving grace of not getting to make the film, 633 00:38:08,453 --> 00:38:10,372 is that we don't have to... 634 00:38:10,956 --> 00:38:14,001 re-tell the story of the Zodiac Killer 635 00:38:15,627 --> 00:38:17,629 for the thousandth time. 636 00:38:21,758 --> 00:38:23,385 Anyway, they're doing all this work 637 00:38:23,552 --> 00:38:28,140 to link Tucker to each of the crimes 638 00:38:29,224 --> 00:38:31,768 but obviously, this is all off the books 639 00:38:32,352 --> 00:38:35,397 because Lyndon's been told not to pursue the case. 640 00:38:37,774 --> 00:38:39,359 So next, him and his team 641 00:38:39,526 --> 00:38:44,740 have to take their theory and get it in front of someone 642 00:38:45,032 --> 00:38:47,159 higher up the chain of command. 643 00:38:50,620 --> 00:38:52,706 He puts together a dossier 644 00:38:54,791 --> 00:38:57,002 of his and his colleagues' findings, 645 00:38:57,169 --> 00:38:59,046 and then together they go into these 646 00:38:59,338 --> 00:39:02,090 centers of investigative power, 647 00:39:02,883 --> 00:39:04,217 slam down the dossier, 648 00:39:04,384 --> 00:39:06,386 and they think that's all they need to show, 649 00:39:06,553 --> 00:39:09,765 but instead, these agencies just don't seem to care. 650 00:39:09,931 --> 00:39:13,518 They have their own suspect, their own theories of the case, 651 00:39:13,685 --> 00:39:14,895 and they don't want some outsider 652 00:39:15,062 --> 00:39:16,980 telling them how to do their job. 653 00:39:18,190 --> 00:39:19,608 [door clicks shut] 654 00:39:20,359 --> 00:39:22,861 So the main challenge for Lyndon becomes 655 00:39:23,528 --> 00:39:26,573 getting anyone to hear him out. 656 00:39:27,532 --> 00:39:29,576 [car indicator ticks] 657 00:39:31,203 --> 00:39:33,163 But then at the same time, he kind of doesn't 658 00:39:33,330 --> 00:39:35,040 want too many people to hear him out, 659 00:39:35,624 --> 00:39:37,292 because if you get too many people on board, 660 00:39:37,709 --> 00:39:41,296 it kind of ceases to be your suspect anymore, 661 00:39:41,463 --> 00:39:43,006 ceases to be your theory. 662 00:39:45,425 --> 00:39:48,387 So much of what's making it possible for me to talk about 663 00:39:48,804 --> 00:39:51,765 Lyndon and his suspect without the rights to the book, 664 00:39:51,932 --> 00:39:54,810 is the fact that he wasn't terribly discreet. 665 00:39:54,976 --> 00:39:57,646 Like, he went on the radio and talked about his suspect. 666 00:39:57,813 --> 00:39:59,940 He gave interviews to newspapers. 667 00:40:01,358 --> 00:40:04,152 Like, in one sense, he really would have been better 668 00:40:04,319 --> 00:40:06,029 just keeping it to himself. 669 00:40:09,908 --> 00:40:12,577 Like, it's not just the quality of the evidence. 670 00:40:13,453 --> 00:40:15,038 It's the... 671 00:40:15,580 --> 00:40:17,082 exclusivity. 672 00:40:20,335 --> 00:40:21,753 Like, did you watch The Jinx 673 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:23,004 when it went out? 674 00:40:23,797 --> 00:40:24,464 [intercom blip] 675 00:40:24,631 --> 00:40:25,632 PRODUCER: No. 676 00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:29,594 The final episode of that is unbelievable. 677 00:40:30,720 --> 00:40:32,681 So for six episodes or whatever, they've been pursuing 678 00:40:32,973 --> 00:40:34,641 this guy called Robert Durst, 679 00:40:35,058 --> 00:40:38,520 who is this eccentric heir 680 00:40:38,812 --> 00:40:40,897 to a real estate fortune, 681 00:40:41,356 --> 00:40:44,484 who's suspected of murdering three people. 682 00:40:45,569 --> 00:40:49,281 And he's interviewed in this show and always kind of 683 00:40:49,656 --> 00:40:51,658 dodges their questions 684 00:40:51,825 --> 00:40:54,786 and skillfully evades incriminating himself 685 00:40:54,953 --> 00:40:56,913 right up until this final episode, 686 00:40:57,372 --> 00:41:00,208 where, at the end of his final interview, 687 00:41:00,375 --> 00:41:01,751 with the filmmakers 688 00:41:02,544 --> 00:41:07,048 he goes to the bathroom and unknowingly, 689 00:41:07,424 --> 00:41:12,220 still wearing his microphone, confesses to himself... 690 00:41:17,142 --> 00:41:18,894 [rustling of clothes] 691 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:22,981 [groaning] 692 00:41:32,157 --> 00:41:34,117 It's unbelievably chilling. 693 00:41:34,409 --> 00:41:36,161 Just incredible television. 694 00:41:36,828 --> 00:41:38,830 And the timing was just unreal. 695 00:41:38,997 --> 00:41:42,375 I think Durst was arrested the day before the airing, 696 00:41:43,126 --> 00:41:44,252 and then in the finale, 697 00:41:44,669 --> 00:41:47,797 you see exactly how and why he was caught, 698 00:41:48,673 --> 00:41:51,343 but it did beg the question: how did this ever line up? 699 00:41:51,927 --> 00:41:55,847 Because obviously that interview was conducted 700 00:41:56,014 --> 00:41:59,392 I think years before the broadcast of the show, 701 00:42:00,352 --> 00:42:03,271 and so whatever the legality of it, 702 00:42:03,438 --> 00:42:06,525 it would seem quite ethically dubious if the filmmakers had 703 00:42:06,816 --> 00:42:10,070 left this murderer to be walking the streets 704 00:42:10,237 --> 00:42:12,989 for two years, just in the interest of 705 00:42:13,323 --> 00:42:16,409 holding back a big reveal for their final episode. 706 00:42:17,869 --> 00:42:20,080 And the story that they told 707 00:42:20,372 --> 00:42:23,041 was that they hadn't actually known 708 00:42:23,625 --> 00:42:25,752 that they had captured the confession. 709 00:42:27,170 --> 00:42:29,923 That that tape went unlistened to 710 00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:33,760 for months or years after it was recorded, 711 00:42:34,427 --> 00:42:36,388 and that they realized like a week before 712 00:42:36,555 --> 00:42:39,558 the final episode was gonna air, just in time to edit it in 713 00:42:39,724 --> 00:42:41,768 and the fact that he was therefore arrested 714 00:42:42,060 --> 00:42:44,271 the day of the airing or the day before or whatever, 715 00:42:44,563 --> 00:42:45,939 is just a happy accident, 716 00:42:46,690 --> 00:42:47,399 slash... 717 00:42:47,816 --> 00:42:49,150 the greatest thing that's ever happened to them 718 00:42:49,317 --> 00:42:50,318 in their filmmaking lives. 719 00:42:54,531 --> 00:42:56,866 [distant highway] 720 00:42:57,701 --> 00:42:59,744 [uncertain drone] 721 00:43:00,203 --> 00:43:02,080 But anyway, in Lyndon's telling, 722 00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:07,085 any secrecy is very much foisted upon him 723 00:43:07,919 --> 00:43:11,464 by the incompetence of these various agencies, 724 00:43:14,009 --> 00:43:15,969 and from that, he concludes that if he's ever going to 725 00:43:16,136 --> 00:43:18,138 bring Tucker to justice, 726 00:43:19,139 --> 00:43:21,141 he's gonna have to go it alone. 727 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,105 And there's a great... 728 00:43:27,647 --> 00:43:29,733 caustic line about this in the book. 729 00:43:29,899 --> 00:43:31,026 Let me just find it. 730 00:43:32,235 --> 00:43:34,279 [pages rustling] 731 00:43:36,448 --> 00:43:37,324 He says: 732 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:41,494 'Do you think I'm going to trust...' 733 00:43:41,661 --> 00:43:43,622 'a bunch of badge-toting clowns...' 734 00:43:43,788 --> 00:43:45,540 'with additional information?' 735 00:43:47,083 --> 00:43:47,792 'Not me.' 736 00:43:49,085 --> 00:43:49,961 'Never again.' 737 00:43:59,054 --> 00:44:01,389 I'm trying to keep all these quotes brief 738 00:44:01,556 --> 00:44:04,976 because I have to justify each one to our lawyer, 739 00:44:07,812 --> 00:44:11,566 but there's 400 pages of this. 740 00:44:13,151 --> 00:44:14,277 [drone continues] 741 00:44:15,362 --> 00:44:17,781 [like a choir holding an uneasy note] 742 00:44:18,323 --> 00:44:19,783 Anyway, under cover of night, 743 00:44:20,075 --> 00:44:22,285 they begin pursuing Tucker, 744 00:44:23,703 --> 00:44:26,164 tailing his car wherever he goes, 745 00:44:26,956 --> 00:44:31,920 arranging a series of shadowy meetings with witnesses, 746 00:44:32,879 --> 00:44:36,800 informants, people who know him in one way or another. 747 00:44:39,260 --> 00:44:41,513 They go through his trash at one point 748 00:44:41,805 --> 00:44:44,099 and try and find incriminating evidence in there. 749 00:44:47,477 --> 00:44:49,938 And ultimately, they stage this... 750 00:44:50,355 --> 00:44:53,817 show-stopping sting operation. 751 00:44:56,277 --> 00:44:58,405 [drone fades] 752 00:44:59,364 --> 00:45:01,700 [distant cars, gentle birdsong] 753 00:45:02,909 --> 00:45:05,995 Basically, they found out Tucker was in AA, 754 00:45:07,872 --> 00:45:10,583 and I'm not entirely sure how, actually, 755 00:45:10,875 --> 00:45:13,044 but the way I always imagined it playing out was 756 00:45:13,420 --> 00:45:15,088 they're tailing Tucker 757 00:45:15,588 --> 00:45:18,007 around Northern California one evening. 758 00:45:18,967 --> 00:45:20,885 Eventually they see his car 759 00:45:21,344 --> 00:45:23,680 pull up outside a church. 760 00:45:26,307 --> 00:45:27,517 Not this church, 761 00:45:27,684 --> 00:45:30,019 but a church, 762 00:45:30,186 --> 00:45:31,855 and this one would have done. 763 00:45:35,150 --> 00:45:37,360 And so Lyndon's maybe across the street, 764 00:45:37,986 --> 00:45:39,988 watching Tucker as he gets out of his car 765 00:45:40,155 --> 00:45:41,948 and makes his way into this church. 766 00:45:44,576 --> 00:45:45,076 Um... 767 00:45:45,243 --> 00:45:48,496 Eventually, maybe, he sneaks in and realizes 768 00:45:49,914 --> 00:45:51,708 that it's an AA meeting. 769 00:45:53,418 --> 00:45:56,171 And so this is like hitting paydirt, 770 00:45:56,671 --> 00:45:59,674 because what do people do at an AA meeting? 771 00:46:01,801 --> 00:46:03,136 They confess. 772 00:46:05,013 --> 00:46:08,183 And so immediately, Lyndon and his team start discussing 773 00:46:08,641 --> 00:46:10,435 how to get someone inside, 774 00:46:11,102 --> 00:46:12,771 but also who to get inside, 775 00:46:12,937 --> 00:46:14,814 because obviously a lot of them are... 776 00:46:15,148 --> 00:46:17,442 too high-profile, in one way or another, 777 00:46:17,901 --> 00:46:20,570 would be too easily recognized by Tucker. 778 00:46:21,029 --> 00:46:24,991 And so eventually, all eyes fall on Ernie... 779 00:46:25,825 --> 00:46:26,993 the minister. 780 00:46:28,828 --> 00:46:32,624 And maybe we'd have set up earlier in the film that 781 00:46:33,041 --> 00:46:36,711 Ernie is a bit of a redundant member of the group, 782 00:46:37,003 --> 00:46:40,465 like it's nice to have him, but he's not the big guns 783 00:46:40,882 --> 00:46:43,259 of this investigative team. 784 00:46:44,302 --> 00:46:47,680 But Io and behold, now it falls to Ernie 785 00:46:48,056 --> 00:46:49,891 to do what the others cannot. 786 00:46:52,727 --> 00:46:56,481 So Ernie begins driving up to the church every week, 787 00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,818 takes his collar off... 788 00:46:59,984 --> 00:47:01,152 [fabric slide] 789 00:47:01,778 --> 00:47:04,197 I'm imagining the dramatic scene of him 790 00:47:04,823 --> 00:47:06,783 putting the collar on the bedside table 791 00:47:07,116 --> 00:47:10,578 to go out and deceive a man he doesn't even know, 792 00:47:10,995 --> 00:47:12,121 in a church. 793 00:47:13,456 --> 00:47:15,041 And then at the end of each meeting, 794 00:47:15,333 --> 00:47:17,919 Ernie would record these tapes 795 00:47:18,294 --> 00:47:21,464 reciting back everything that Tucker had said. 796 00:47:22,715 --> 00:47:24,801 And apparently the tapes still exist, 797 00:47:24,968 --> 00:47:28,179 so we would have played them over this sequence. 798 00:47:30,974 --> 00:47:32,225 Here's a quote from it. 799 00:47:32,725 --> 00:47:35,645 This is Ernie on one of these tapes, saying: 800 00:47:36,604 --> 00:47:38,523 [unsettling drone] 801 00:47:39,107 --> 00:47:41,317 'I felt like he was trying to say,' 802 00:47:41,693 --> 00:47:43,570 'I am a rotten S.O.B.' 803 00:47:44,779 --> 00:47:46,865 'but I can't tell you what I have done.' 804 00:47:48,324 --> 00:47:51,744 'I've done things I'm not proud of, and would never tell you.' 805 00:47:52,912 --> 00:47:54,080 'Terrible things.' 806 00:47:55,456 --> 00:47:56,791 'If only you knew.' 807 00:47:58,126 --> 00:47:59,335 'But you will never know,' 808 00:48:00,670 --> 00:48:02,046 'and I don't care anymore.' 809 00:48:03,506 --> 00:48:04,841 'It's in the past now.' 810 00:48:07,135 --> 00:48:10,805 [drone intensifies, breathy and insistent] 811 00:48:12,015 --> 00:48:12,932 [intercom blip] 812 00:48:13,099 --> 00:48:14,767 PRODUCER: Imagine going to an AA meeting... 813 00:48:15,101 --> 00:48:17,562 ... and then what you say being published in a book. 814 00:48:17,896 --> 00:48:19,564 [laughs, drone cuts out] 815 00:48:20,481 --> 00:48:21,608 Well, yeah. 816 00:48:22,233 --> 00:48:23,026 Not great. 817 00:48:24,569 --> 00:48:25,194 Um... 818 00:48:26,195 --> 00:48:27,488 You know, invading 819 00:48:28,448 --> 00:48:31,242 the sanctity of an AA meeting 820 00:48:31,534 --> 00:48:34,537 to listen in on someone's confessions, 821 00:48:34,704 --> 00:48:38,291 hoping they admit to committing the Zodiac killings. 822 00:48:40,585 --> 00:48:41,836 That's the thing, though. 823 00:48:42,003 --> 00:48:44,172 If he did... 824 00:48:44,881 --> 00:48:45,632 it's fine. 825 00:48:46,507 --> 00:48:49,093 Right? If he did, it's absolutely fine. 826 00:48:49,260 --> 00:48:50,720 You could go much further. 827 00:48:51,262 --> 00:48:54,807 It's only if he didn't, that you start to feel a bit... 828 00:48:55,391 --> 00:48:56,976 sweaty about it. 829 00:48:58,519 --> 00:49:00,313 And I feel like that's what 830 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,608 we would have been trading on with this. 831 00:49:03,900 --> 00:49:07,862 You need people to be fully convinced 832 00:49:08,029 --> 00:49:13,242 going into this sequence, or it just seems way beyond the pale. 833 00:49:15,620 --> 00:49:18,498 I always think back to that scene in... 834 00:49:19,165 --> 00:49:20,124 Paradise Lost. 835 00:49:20,291 --> 00:49:23,378 I think it's the second Paradise Lost film, where... 836 00:49:24,963 --> 00:49:27,131 It's like... Have you seen Paradise Lost? 837 00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:27,882 [intercom blip] 838 00:49:28,049 --> 00:49:28,883 PRODUCER: No. 839 00:49:29,258 --> 00:49:32,929 It was a trilogy of documentaries about this... 840 00:49:33,888 --> 00:49:36,641 miscarriage of justice where these teenage boys were... 841 00:49:37,725 --> 00:49:41,896 sent to prison for the murders of some children 842 00:49:42,188 --> 00:49:44,273 that they clearly hadn't committed. 843 00:49:45,191 --> 00:49:48,277 And in the second of the three films, 844 00:49:48,861 --> 00:49:52,365 they start sniffing around the possibility 845 00:49:52,782 --> 00:49:55,868 that the dad of one of the dead kids 846 00:49:56,244 --> 00:49:58,913 could have been responsible for these deaths. 847 00:49:59,539 --> 00:50:02,583 And in the interests of exploring this idea, 848 00:50:02,750 --> 00:50:06,546 they film him out in the woods 849 00:50:07,213 --> 00:50:12,427 performing some sort of commemorative ritual, 850 00:50:13,177 --> 00:50:14,053 um... 851 00:50:14,220 --> 00:50:16,764 which is admittedly... 852 00:50:17,056 --> 00:50:19,017 incredibly weird and creepy 853 00:50:19,851 --> 00:50:23,021 and the takeaway of the scene is clearly: 854 00:50:23,187 --> 00:50:25,773 oh my God, this guy is guilty as sin. 855 00:50:27,442 --> 00:50:29,902 And he wasn't. He had nothing to do with it. 856 00:50:30,611 --> 00:50:32,989 And I think even at the time, they got a bit of stick for... 857 00:50:33,156 --> 00:50:34,615 having kind of... 858 00:50:34,782 --> 00:50:36,826 exploiting his grief in this way, 859 00:50:36,993 --> 00:50:37,702 um... 860 00:50:38,786 --> 00:50:40,246 but if it had been him, 861 00:50:41,539 --> 00:50:43,833 no one would have cared about exploiting the grief. 862 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,337 If you're convinced it's for the greater good, 863 00:50:49,255 --> 00:50:52,467 there are very few ethical lines 864 00:50:53,301 --> 00:50:54,343 as far as... 865 00:50:55,094 --> 00:50:57,180 HBO execs are concerned. 866 00:50:59,348 --> 00:51:00,933 [distant cars] 867 00:51:01,726 --> 00:51:06,522 So Tucker is saying all this creepy stuff in these meetings, 868 00:51:06,689 --> 00:51:10,818 but obviously he's not about to confess 869 00:51:11,194 --> 00:51:12,862 to being the Zodiac Killer. 870 00:51:13,571 --> 00:51:17,408 And so they realize they need to go one step further. 871 00:51:17,575 --> 00:51:20,036 They need something undeniable. 872 00:51:21,037 --> 00:51:23,164 And what he arrives at is... 873 00:51:23,873 --> 00:51:25,625 this palm print. 874 00:51:29,253 --> 00:51:31,380 Basically, after one of the crimes, 875 00:51:32,256 --> 00:51:35,676 the Zodiac Killer himself called the police 876 00:51:36,094 --> 00:51:37,929 to report what he had done, 877 00:51:38,805 --> 00:51:42,058 and they managed to get to the phone booth that he used 878 00:51:42,225 --> 00:51:43,267 quite quickly 879 00:51:43,810 --> 00:51:46,813 and so they found on it, a palm print 880 00:51:47,897 --> 00:51:51,984 that was considered to be definitively his. 881 00:51:53,986 --> 00:51:56,155 And so Lyndon seizes upon this 882 00:51:56,322 --> 00:52:00,785 as the ultimate test of Tucker's guilt. 883 00:52:02,537 --> 00:52:04,705 [insistent electronic music] 884 00:52:05,873 --> 00:52:09,544 And so, from here, we'd have been straight into our scheme, 885 00:52:10,086 --> 00:52:13,005 and I think we'd have done it a little bit like a heist film, 886 00:52:13,673 --> 00:52:15,800 showing it step by step and piece by piece, 887 00:52:15,967 --> 00:52:20,429 before people have a chance to make sense of what the plan is. 888 00:52:20,763 --> 00:52:23,599 You feel it coming together like this jigsaw puzzle, 889 00:52:23,766 --> 00:52:24,725 until at the end, 890 00:52:25,226 --> 00:52:26,853 the picture reveals itself. 891 00:52:28,855 --> 00:52:30,982 So the first step is that a friend of Lyndon's 892 00:52:31,482 --> 00:52:34,777 bandaged Ernie's arm into a cast, 893 00:52:35,695 --> 00:52:37,572 and he wore this cast 894 00:52:37,947 --> 00:52:41,659 every week at this AA meeting where he was undercover, 895 00:52:41,951 --> 00:52:45,288 getting Tucker used to the idea of him in an arm cast. 896 00:52:46,914 --> 00:52:49,292 And then Lyndon... 897 00:52:49,667 --> 00:52:51,294 gives Ernie a gun. 898 00:52:51,836 --> 00:52:54,547 He arms him, with a revolver. 899 00:52:54,964 --> 00:52:57,967 And I could just imagine the inserts of all of this: 900 00:52:58,134 --> 00:53:01,721 the gun tucked into the ceremonial robes... 901 00:53:03,222 --> 00:53:05,433 Does a Methodist minister wear robes? 902 00:53:06,017 --> 00:53:07,643 We would've had him wear robes. 903 00:53:08,394 --> 00:53:10,938 Just, that image of... 904 00:53:11,731 --> 00:53:15,276 the gun going into the religious garb 905 00:53:15,610 --> 00:53:17,987 and then maybe the bandaged arm... 906 00:53:18,279 --> 00:53:20,948 swinging back in front to hide the gun 907 00:53:21,782 --> 00:53:24,452 and then the... 908 00:53:25,244 --> 00:53:28,372 In fact, I have to hand this one over to Lyndon 909 00:53:28,539 --> 00:53:32,919 because the way he describes it is so perfectly understated. 910 00:53:34,212 --> 00:53:34,795 Let me find it. 911 00:53:34,962 --> 00:53:36,214 [pages rustling] 912 00:53:37,006 --> 00:53:37,840 He says: 913 00:53:38,883 --> 00:53:42,470 'As March 1st, 1977, approached,' 914 00:53:43,012 --> 00:53:45,097 'our plan was right on schedule.' 915 00:53:46,641 --> 00:53:48,935 'I bought the fishbowl required.' 916 00:53:49,644 --> 00:53:50,603 [glass hit reverberates] 917 00:53:50,937 --> 00:53:52,230 [like a revving engine] 918 00:53:53,606 --> 00:53:56,067 I mean, as a cliffhanger... just incredible. 919 00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:57,485 If this was a series, 920 00:53:57,652 --> 00:53:59,320 that's where you'd put the episode break, 921 00:53:59,487 --> 00:54:01,906 and then there's no way people are stopping watching. 922 00:54:04,700 --> 00:54:07,411 And so Lyndon gives Ernie this fishbowl, 923 00:54:07,995 --> 00:54:09,664 and he drives up the highway 924 00:54:10,289 --> 00:54:12,667 to this fateful AA meeting. 925 00:54:13,876 --> 00:54:15,336 He's sitting outside, 926 00:54:15,503 --> 00:54:18,214 thinking about whether his grand plan is going to work. 927 00:54:19,799 --> 00:54:24,345 Eventually, he sees Tucker arrive, 928 00:54:25,304 --> 00:54:27,265 and so he gets out of the car, 929 00:54:27,807 --> 00:54:32,937 walks to his trunk, pops it open, and there it is: 930 00:54:33,312 --> 00:54:34,230 [glass hit, resonates] 931 00:54:34,397 --> 00:54:35,523 the fishbowl. 932 00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:39,151 So he says, 933 00:54:39,318 --> 00:54:41,904 could you carry this into the meeting for me? 934 00:54:42,321 --> 00:54:43,906 Because of my broken arm. 935 00:54:45,157 --> 00:54:47,285 And I guess he explained that he was gonna 936 00:54:47,451 --> 00:54:49,620 give a presentation to the group 937 00:54:49,787 --> 00:54:51,914 and use the fishbowl as a prop. 938 00:54:53,332 --> 00:54:55,751 And so this is our make or break moment. 939 00:54:56,794 --> 00:55:01,507 Is Tucker gonna reach his hands into the trunk, 940 00:55:01,882 --> 00:55:04,218 plant them on the sides of this fishbowl, 941 00:55:04,844 --> 00:55:06,470 leaving, presumably... 942 00:55:06,887 --> 00:55:09,724 the platonic ideal of two handprints 943 00:55:09,890 --> 00:55:11,767 on the side of this glass bowl. 944 00:55:14,603 --> 00:55:15,604 And Io and behold, 945 00:55:16,731 --> 00:55:17,815 that's exactly what happens. 946 00:55:17,982 --> 00:55:18,941 [choir sings] 947 00:55:19,108 --> 00:55:20,776 And I can only imagine the triumph 948 00:55:20,943 --> 00:55:23,904 of that moment, as this bowl is carried into the meeting, 949 00:55:24,405 --> 00:55:27,283 and we're caught up on this wave of energy, 950 00:55:27,450 --> 00:55:28,743 thrust into the building, 951 00:55:29,410 --> 00:55:32,413 albeit obviously, that momentum immediately interrupted 952 00:55:32,580 --> 00:55:34,582 by a two-hour AA meeting 953 00:55:35,041 --> 00:55:37,376 and whatever Ernie's presentation was. 954 00:55:38,544 --> 00:55:40,171 [choir is silenced, driving beat continues] 955 00:55:40,588 --> 00:55:43,799 My assumption is it would've been some kind of metaphor, 956 00:55:44,342 --> 00:55:47,887 like, take life one day at a time, 957 00:55:48,554 --> 00:55:49,722 like a goldfish. 958 00:55:51,432 --> 00:55:53,184 Because of the short memory. 959 00:55:53,351 --> 00:55:54,560 Maybe? I don't know. 960 00:55:54,852 --> 00:55:55,686 Uh... 961 00:55:56,312 --> 00:55:58,981 So, at the end of the meeting, 962 00:55:59,982 --> 00:56:02,943 Ernie has Tucker carry the fishbowl back to the car, 963 00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:05,654 pops the trunk... 964 00:56:06,364 --> 00:56:07,907 I'm imagining this... 965 00:56:08,282 --> 00:56:12,578 this empty trunk of this car opened up, 966 00:56:12,745 --> 00:56:16,457 the little interior light just perfectly illuminating 967 00:56:16,624 --> 00:56:18,417 the spot where this bowl is gonna go, 968 00:56:18,584 --> 00:56:20,169 and presumably from there, be whisked... 969 00:56:20,336 --> 00:56:22,338 straight to whatever expert is gonna 970 00:56:22,505 --> 00:56:25,841 painstakingly extract these palm prints, 971 00:56:26,008 --> 00:56:27,802 which can then be matched to the... 972 00:56:27,968 --> 00:56:29,845 file print of the Zodiac Killer 973 00:56:30,012 --> 00:56:32,556 and the whole thing is gonna be wrapped up 974 00:56:32,723 --> 00:56:34,266 in this perfect, neat bow, 975 00:56:34,683 --> 00:56:37,353 as soon as Tucker places this bowl 976 00:56:37,686 --> 00:56:40,815 back down into the trunk of the car. 977 00:56:41,565 --> 00:56:43,692 [glass reverberates in anticipation] 978 00:56:45,069 --> 00:56:46,070 But then... 979 00:56:46,737 --> 00:56:49,156 Actually, let me read the version in the book, 980 00:56:49,323 --> 00:56:54,370 because Lyndon describes it in such exquisitely tragic terms. 981 00:56:54,954 --> 00:56:57,331 [music collapses into thudding pulse] 982 00:56:58,457 --> 00:57:01,419 'But then, for some strange reason,' 983 00:57:01,710 --> 00:57:04,547 'our suspect did something totally bizarre.' 984 00:57:06,882 --> 00:57:08,843 'After the bowl was set securely...' 985 00:57:09,009 --> 00:57:10,761 'in the trunk of Ernie's car,' 986 00:57:11,929 --> 00:57:14,306 'Tucker slapped the bowl with his palms' 987 00:57:14,890 --> 00:57:16,225 'several times' 988 00:57:16,392 --> 00:57:17,726 [glass hits, like chiming bells] 989 00:57:18,018 --> 00:57:19,145 'and then rubbed the bowl' 990 00:57:19,311 --> 00:57:21,272 'several times as well.' 991 00:57:23,774 --> 00:57:25,109 'Ernie said,' 992 00:57:25,776 --> 00:57:27,820 'I could not believe my eyes, Lyndon.' 993 00:57:30,406 --> 00:57:32,032 'It was like he knew.' 994 00:57:35,744 --> 00:57:36,495 [birdsong] 995 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:39,832 [bike whizzes by] 996 00:57:41,709 --> 00:57:43,836 Pretty good, right? 997 00:57:46,422 --> 00:57:48,257 And I think we would've tried to play it 998 00:57:48,424 --> 00:57:52,803 right down the middle of either an intentional act of sabotage, 999 00:57:54,054 --> 00:57:56,599 or just about plausibly, 1000 00:57:57,308 --> 00:57:59,310 an innocent action. 1001 00:58:00,686 --> 00:58:02,396 That's a fun knife edge. 1002 00:58:02,730 --> 00:58:06,192 Either it's like the wily behavior of a serial killer, 1003 00:58:06,775 --> 00:58:07,943 or it's like your dad, 1004 00:58:08,110 --> 00:58:08,402 kind of 1005 00:58:08,569 --> 00:58:12,364 patting the sides of something to show you how robust it is. 1006 00:58:12,865 --> 00:58:14,825 [glassy reverberations] 1007 00:58:15,826 --> 00:58:17,578 And I think by shooting it slow motion, 1008 00:58:17,745 --> 00:58:19,663 we would have really extracted 1009 00:58:20,331 --> 00:58:25,211 every agonizing clap of the hands against the bowl 1010 00:58:25,377 --> 00:58:29,548 and then that terrible, dreadful rubbing of the sides. 1011 00:58:29,715 --> 00:58:30,341 Like this... 1012 00:58:30,508 --> 00:58:31,634 I could just imagine... 1013 00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:33,844 Oh god, I was so excited about shooting this sequence. 1014 00:58:34,929 --> 00:58:39,225 The feeling of agonizing loss 1015 00:58:39,808 --> 00:58:41,393 in that moment. 1016 00:58:43,562 --> 00:58:45,689 [reverberations fall away to nothing] 1017 00:58:52,905 --> 00:58:55,658 [car softly pulling up] 1018 00:58:57,952 --> 00:58:59,828 And so it's that feeling of loss 1019 00:59:00,162 --> 00:59:02,748 that would've set the stage 1020 00:59:02,915 --> 00:59:04,959 for the final third of the film, 1021 00:59:06,126 --> 00:59:09,838 which begins with a real error of judgment 1022 00:59:10,339 --> 00:59:11,715 on Lyndon's part, 1023 00:59:14,552 --> 00:59:17,805 and that's that he agrees to meet with another man 1024 00:59:17,972 --> 00:59:22,601 who's been on his own parallel hunt for the Zodiac: 1025 00:59:23,561 --> 00:59:25,271 Robert Graysmith. 1026 00:59:27,731 --> 00:59:30,192 Will that land, do you think? Or should I explain who he is? 1027 00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:34,446 So, Graysmith is the author 1028 00:59:34,947 --> 00:59:38,659 of the most successful book about the Zodiac Killer, 1029 00:59:39,577 --> 00:59:41,704 so successful, in fact, that in Zodiac circles, 1030 00:59:41,870 --> 00:59:44,164 it's often just called 'the Yellow Book,' 1031 00:59:45,499 --> 00:59:47,209 like it's Macbeth or something, 1032 00:59:47,835 --> 00:59:51,922 because it's got this very distinctive yellow cover 1033 00:59:52,464 --> 00:59:55,509 with 'Zodiac' written down the center. 1034 00:59:58,137 --> 00:59:59,305 But at this point, 1035 00:59:59,471 --> 01:00:02,057 he's still chasing the story down 1036 01:00:02,224 --> 01:00:03,892 and so him and Lyndon have been 1037 01:00:04,351 --> 01:00:08,188 speaking to the same sources, following up on the same leads, 1038 01:00:08,981 --> 01:00:11,942 but it's only now, at this low ebb, 1039 01:00:12,610 --> 01:00:14,486 that Lyndon agrees to meet, 1040 01:00:16,155 --> 01:00:17,156 figuring, I guess, 1041 01:00:17,323 --> 01:00:18,782 what do I have to lose? 1042 01:00:21,285 --> 01:00:23,454 And pretty soon he gets his answer. 1043 01:00:24,788 --> 01:00:26,415 [distant cars] 1044 01:00:27,666 --> 01:00:28,459 I think we could have gone 1045 01:00:28,626 --> 01:00:30,377 pretty swiftly from that to... 1046 01:00:31,503 --> 01:00:35,007 Well, what I was imagining was Lyndon wandering innocently 1047 01:00:35,174 --> 01:00:37,384 around his local bookstore 1048 01:00:38,886 --> 01:00:40,179 and then spying 1049 01:00:40,346 --> 01:00:43,432 in the new releases or the bestsellers section, 1050 01:00:43,599 --> 01:00:45,809 this bright yellow... 1051 01:00:46,935 --> 01:00:49,146 Actually, I think the first edition was black, but... 1052 01:00:49,813 --> 01:00:51,607 it's got that crosshair symbol on it 1053 01:00:52,107 --> 01:00:53,651 and 'Zodiac' in massive writing, 1054 01:00:54,109 --> 01:00:55,319 and so I was imagining him 1055 01:00:55,778 --> 01:00:57,571 feverishly searching through the pages 1056 01:00:57,738 --> 01:01:00,032 to see if it favors his suspect, 1057 01:01:00,866 --> 01:01:03,827 and instead, not only does it present 1058 01:01:04,370 --> 01:01:08,123 an entirely different suspect, but it also includes 1059 01:01:08,290 --> 01:01:12,795 some of the juiciest details from Lyndon's story 1060 01:01:12,961 --> 01:01:16,006 almost as this, kind of, funny aside. 1061 01:01:20,094 --> 01:01:23,222 And one of the main reasons I was able to describe 1062 01:01:23,639 --> 01:01:26,934 the fishbowl story in such detail a minute ago 1063 01:01:27,101 --> 01:01:29,478 is that the story got out 1064 01:01:30,354 --> 01:01:32,731 20 years before Lyndon wrote his book, 1065 01:01:33,982 --> 01:01:35,484 which must have been... 1066 01:01:36,610 --> 01:01:37,403 annoying. 1067 01:01:41,156 --> 01:01:42,866 But then he can't really make it about that 1068 01:01:43,242 --> 01:01:44,952 because that seems sort of vain, 1069 01:01:45,703 --> 01:01:51,250 so the version in Lyndon's book is all about how this was... 1070 01:01:51,417 --> 01:01:52,042 You know, 1071 01:01:52,209 --> 01:01:54,795 a threat to his family's safety, 1072 01:01:54,962 --> 01:01:57,214 and how this was putting lives in jeopardy and all this stuff. 1073 01:01:57,381 --> 01:01:58,424 Let me find the thing. 1074 01:01:59,174 --> 01:02:00,342 He says: 1075 01:02:00,968 --> 01:02:03,095 [disenchanted drone] 1076 01:02:03,887 --> 01:02:06,598 'Graysmith, a complete novice,' 1077 01:02:07,391 --> 01:02:08,726 'went on to disseminate...' 1078 01:02:08,892 --> 01:02:12,396 'sensitive investigative findings to the entire world,' 1079 01:02:13,897 --> 01:02:16,358 'things which could place my family members...' 1080 01:02:16,525 --> 01:02:18,485 'in a great deal of danger.' 1081 01:02:21,739 --> 01:02:26,368 So he frames it as an ethical concern, essentially, 1082 01:02:27,327 --> 01:02:29,621 and we would have run with that in the film, but... 1083 01:02:30,539 --> 01:02:32,374 but I think the real violation was that... 1084 01:02:32,541 --> 01:02:34,710 not only was this book hugely successful, 1085 01:02:34,877 --> 01:02:37,755 and made Graysmith a very wealthy man, 1086 01:02:39,631 --> 01:02:40,883 it also made him... 1087 01:02:41,175 --> 01:02:43,886 the de facto authority. 1088 01:02:47,347 --> 01:02:49,475 [drone fades into distant cars] 1089 01:02:50,851 --> 01:02:54,772 It's very hard to be the second true crime book, 1090 01:02:54,938 --> 01:02:57,900 or the second true crime film about any given subject, 1091 01:02:58,901 --> 01:03:01,278 because as soon as one is a hit, 1092 01:03:02,112 --> 01:03:03,947 that kind of sets the terms by which 1093 01:03:04,114 --> 01:03:05,532 the thing is understood. 1094 01:03:08,452 --> 01:03:10,412 It assigns the guilt, 1095 01:03:11,955 --> 01:03:15,626 I think, more powerfully really than even the... 1096 01:03:16,710 --> 01:03:20,214 law enforcement agencies directly working on the case. 1097 01:03:24,384 --> 01:03:27,095 [distant, tinny melody] 1098 01:03:28,388 --> 01:03:30,516 Anyway, my plan had been to bounce 1099 01:03:30,682 --> 01:03:32,267 straight from the Graysmith stuff 1100 01:03:32,976 --> 01:03:38,232 into some of Lyndon's more out-there detective work, 1101 01:03:39,650 --> 01:03:42,069 as he becomes increasingly desperate 1102 01:03:42,236 --> 01:03:44,988 to get his own investigation moving again. 1103 01:03:46,073 --> 01:03:47,908 [tinny tune grows louder] 1104 01:03:49,034 --> 01:03:52,371 I imagined it like that classic cop movie thing 1105 01:03:52,538 --> 01:03:55,374 where they go back to the drawing board, 1106 01:03:55,749 --> 01:03:58,961 start re-examining all the old evidence to see if they can... 1107 01:03:59,837 --> 01:04:01,088 shake something loose. 1108 01:04:01,713 --> 01:04:06,093 So he'd be re-reading interview transcripts, 1109 01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,389 going back and meeting with witnesses again, 1110 01:04:12,516 --> 01:04:15,477 trying to see if there's something that he missed 1111 01:04:15,644 --> 01:04:17,104 first time around. 1112 01:04:18,730 --> 01:04:21,316 [jolly melody continues] 1113 01:04:22,568 --> 01:04:24,278 There's an ice cream truck 1114 01:04:24,611 --> 01:04:25,988 just out of shot here. 1115 01:04:29,783 --> 01:04:32,494 But as Lyndon looks closer and closer, 1116 01:04:32,870 --> 01:04:35,205 and obsesses over every little detail, 1117 01:04:35,914 --> 01:04:37,833 we would've been trying to build this sense of 1118 01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:38,584 kind of... 1119 01:04:38,750 --> 01:04:40,335 growing paranoia. 1120 01:04:43,255 --> 01:04:46,300 Like, maybe the leads start off fairly reasonable, 1121 01:04:46,758 --> 01:04:51,680 like there was this thing about him buying Tucker's old car, 1122 01:04:53,140 --> 01:04:55,893 the one that he'd been driving that day at the rest stop. 1123 01:04:57,895 --> 01:05:00,689 Lyndon buys it, and he searches through it, 1124 01:05:00,856 --> 01:05:05,319 looking for any old discarded items that might... 1125 01:05:05,986 --> 01:05:07,696 have evidentiary value. 1126 01:05:10,449 --> 01:05:13,076 But as he starts to look at each of these things closer, 1127 01:05:13,243 --> 01:05:17,956 there's kind of a mania that sets in, 1128 01:05:19,041 --> 01:05:19,291 you know, 1129 01:05:19,458 --> 01:05:20,250 and in particular, 1130 01:05:20,417 --> 01:05:23,921 there was this whole thing where he found a button, 1131 01:05:25,672 --> 01:05:26,965 in the car 1132 01:05:27,382 --> 01:05:30,093 and became convinced that this button 1133 01:05:30,260 --> 01:05:33,722 had some sort of massive significance to the case. 1134 01:05:36,308 --> 01:05:39,019 And so I think we could've taken little things like that, 1135 01:05:39,186 --> 01:05:42,522 and used them to create this sense that we're... 1136 01:05:42,689 --> 01:05:45,150 delving deeper and deeper into Lyndon's... 1137 01:05:45,859 --> 01:05:46,902 psyche. 1138 01:05:50,948 --> 01:05:51,698 Like... 1139 01:05:52,574 --> 01:05:54,326 [paranoid drone] 1140 01:05:54,660 --> 01:05:57,162 We're falling down the rabbit hole with him, 1141 01:06:01,541 --> 01:06:04,127 not knowing how deep it goes. 1142 01:06:05,796 --> 01:06:08,882 [ice cream melody plays on eerily] 1143 01:06:12,844 --> 01:06:16,390 [a thudding pulse, music warps and distorts] 1144 01:06:20,519 --> 01:06:25,816 But because Lyndon was such a lone wolf by this point, 1145 01:06:27,734 --> 01:06:29,945 almost by definition, this is where we have... 1146 01:06:30,112 --> 01:06:31,530 the fewest sources 1147 01:06:31,822 --> 01:06:33,407 outside of his book. 1148 01:06:35,826 --> 01:06:37,744 So people just have to... 1149 01:06:38,036 --> 01:06:40,706 take my word for it that there would've been... 1150 01:06:40,872 --> 01:06:42,249 you know... 1151 01:06:42,916 --> 01:06:45,002 some great twists and turns here. 1152 01:06:50,674 --> 01:06:52,509 Like, have I even... I haven't even mentioned... 1153 01:06:52,676 --> 01:06:54,011 the building yet, have I? 1154 01:06:57,014 --> 01:07:00,517 Basically, there would've been a key scene here, 1155 01:07:03,437 --> 01:07:06,398 where there's an explosion, 1156 01:07:07,566 --> 01:07:08,608 uh... 1157 01:07:09,401 --> 01:07:13,030 with narrative significance. 1158 01:07:14,072 --> 01:07:15,824 [pulse slows] 1159 01:07:18,910 --> 01:07:21,121 [pulse continues, a muffled thud] 1160 01:07:22,039 --> 01:07:23,749 But the purpose of all this would've been 1161 01:07:24,124 --> 01:07:29,171 getting Lyndon to a more reckless state of mind, 1162 01:07:31,298 --> 01:07:36,219 where he's ready to make the kinds of rash decisions 1163 01:07:36,386 --> 01:07:39,347 that he wouldn't have made a few years earlier, 1164 01:07:40,515 --> 01:07:42,059 or half an hour earlier, 1165 01:07:42,225 --> 01:07:43,351 for our purposes. 1166 01:07:47,773 --> 01:07:51,735 And again I can't get into the intricate... 1167 01:07:51,902 --> 01:07:53,487 plot mechanics of this, 1168 01:07:55,322 --> 01:07:58,492 but basically in a bizarre twist of fate, 1169 01:07:59,284 --> 01:08:03,163 Lyndon finds himself presented with the opportunity... 1170 01:08:03,330 --> 01:08:04,873 for him and his wife... 1171 01:08:05,373 --> 01:08:09,503 to go to dinner with Tucker and his wife 1172 01:08:11,088 --> 01:08:11,963 as friends. 1173 01:08:12,130 --> 01:08:14,800 Like, they've fallen into the same social circle 1174 01:08:14,966 --> 01:08:17,928 through this very strange series of events 1175 01:08:18,220 --> 01:08:22,349 and now, the situation is such 1176 01:08:22,516 --> 01:08:24,810 that it could make sense for them to... 1177 01:08:24,976 --> 01:08:27,229 essentially double date. 1178 01:08:30,440 --> 01:08:33,110 So Lyndon writes in the book about them preparing 1179 01:08:33,485 --> 01:08:37,030 to go to dinner with Tucker and his wife, 1180 01:08:38,115 --> 01:08:41,201 and he writes about it like they're preparing 1181 01:08:41,618 --> 01:08:43,662 for a military operation. 1182 01:08:44,121 --> 01:08:47,040 [pages rustling] 1183 01:08:49,543 --> 01:08:50,293 So he says: 1184 01:08:51,044 --> 01:08:52,671 [buzzing tone, like a live wire] 1185 01:08:53,088 --> 01:08:56,049 'The evening before this arranged dinner,' 1186 01:08:56,466 --> 01:08:58,844 'I retrieved my .38 five-shot...' 1187 01:08:59,010 --> 01:09:01,721 'Centennial Smith and Wesson hammerless,' 1188 01:09:02,931 --> 01:09:04,391 'cleaned and lubricated it,' 1189 01:09:05,183 --> 01:09:07,018 'and loaded it with high-velocity,' 1190 01:09:07,185 --> 01:09:09,062 'light-grain hollow points.' 1191 01:09:11,773 --> 01:09:14,192 'Next, I checked my small...' 1192 01:09:14,359 --> 01:09:17,404 'palm-sized.22 Magnum Derringer,' 1193 01:09:18,655 --> 01:09:22,117 'the dynamite stick, which holds two bullets.' 1194 01:09:23,827 --> 01:09:26,454 'I called my wife into the kitchen and asked her,' 1195 01:09:27,455 --> 01:09:30,625 'do you remember how to load and shoot the Derringer?' 1196 01:09:33,086 --> 01:09:35,380 And so, with the guns tucked into the... 1197 01:09:35,755 --> 01:09:39,718 the pocket of Lyndon's jeans and his wife's purse, 1198 01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:42,053 they set out... 1199 01:09:43,763 --> 01:09:45,724 for a date with justice. 1200 01:09:49,311 --> 01:09:49,895 [intercom blip] 1201 01:09:50,061 --> 01:09:51,479 PRODUCER: I think 'double date with justice'. 1202 01:09:51,646 --> 01:09:53,565 A double date with justice. 1203 01:09:53,732 --> 01:09:55,275 [laughs] 1204 01:09:58,195 --> 01:10:00,071 See, this is why it's a bit... 1205 01:10:00,655 --> 01:10:01,823 bittersweet doing this. 1206 01:10:01,990 --> 01:10:04,910 Like, this is the fun of this genre, right? 1207 01:10:05,076 --> 01:10:09,247 Getting to that point where things that would have seemed 1208 01:10:09,414 --> 01:10:11,750 impossibly outlandish at the outset 1209 01:10:12,167 --> 01:10:15,503 now start to seem perfectly reasonable. 1210 01:10:16,796 --> 01:10:19,007 Like, you watched Making a Murderer, right? 1211 01:10:19,466 --> 01:10:20,967 [dark-edged country music] 1212 01:10:21,426 --> 01:10:24,763 That first season, even though it was built around this 1213 01:10:24,930 --> 01:10:27,057 very dramatic story of this... 1214 01:10:27,224 --> 01:10:28,934 possible miscarriage of justice, 1215 01:10:29,559 --> 01:10:32,520 the actual content of the show 1216 01:10:33,063 --> 01:10:34,898 was pretty restrained. 1217 01:10:36,066 --> 01:10:38,026 Most of what you were looking at was just... 1218 01:10:38,485 --> 01:10:41,071 grainy interrogation footage 1219 01:10:41,363 --> 01:10:45,033 and shots of people standing about in courtrooms. 1220 01:10:47,244 --> 01:10:49,329 But then they made a second season, 1221 01:10:50,622 --> 01:10:54,292 and you can just feel this inevitable slide 1222 01:10:54,459 --> 01:10:57,003 into sensationalism, 1223 01:10:57,420 --> 01:11:00,799 from the off—from episode one of season two, 1224 01:11:01,174 --> 01:11:04,427 they are taking a mannequin, putting a wig on it, 1225 01:11:04,594 --> 01:11:07,430 and covering it in red paint to simulate blood splatter. 1226 01:11:08,098 --> 01:11:10,976 'I wanted to re-enact it.' 1227 01:11:12,352 --> 01:11:13,895 And you look back at the previous season 1228 01:11:14,062 --> 01:11:16,189 where it was all basically men in dusty suits 1229 01:11:16,356 --> 01:11:18,692 sitting around discussing legal precedent, 1230 01:11:18,858 --> 01:11:19,734 [heavy thud] 1231 01:11:20,443 --> 01:11:21,236 and you think, 1232 01:11:21,528 --> 01:11:22,821 how did we get here? 1233 01:11:24,322 --> 01:11:28,285 Like, the bounds of rational behavior 1234 01:11:28,451 --> 01:11:30,578 are just ever-expanding. 1235 01:11:32,580 --> 01:11:34,040 [quiet room] 1236 01:11:36,376 --> 01:11:38,920 So if you accepted Lyndon and his team 1237 01:11:40,088 --> 01:11:42,507 searching through Tucker's trash, 1238 01:11:43,341 --> 01:11:45,135 then why wouldn't you accept them... 1239 01:11:45,427 --> 01:11:47,262 eavesdropping on the AA meeting? 1240 01:11:48,888 --> 01:11:51,266 And if you accept them eavesdropping on the AA meeting 1241 01:11:51,433 --> 01:11:53,018 then why wouldn't you accept the whole... 1242 01:11:53,727 --> 01:11:55,395 fishbowl caper? 1243 01:11:59,482 --> 01:12:02,193 And yeah, here we are, at a steakhouse, 1244 01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:03,820 with the Zodiac Killer. 1245 01:12:05,071 --> 01:12:08,450 [jangled thuds, like a piano thrown down a staircase] 1246 01:12:09,451 --> 01:12:12,412 So this is the actual steakhouse 1247 01:12:12,704 --> 01:12:16,499 that they went to, up in Winters, California, 1248 01:12:19,627 --> 01:12:21,838 and I think from the moment they would've met, 1249 01:12:22,005 --> 01:12:26,009 we would have had this question of recognition. 1250 01:12:29,095 --> 01:12:32,515 Like, does Tucker remember Lyndon from the rest stop? 1251 01:12:33,892 --> 01:12:37,354 Or did he somehow sense his presence... 1252 01:12:37,729 --> 01:12:39,731 at the police interrogation? 1253 01:12:40,774 --> 01:12:43,360 To what extent does this man know 1254 01:12:43,902 --> 01:12:46,946 that this meeting is not a first encounter, 1255 01:12:47,113 --> 01:12:48,740 it's the culmination 1256 01:12:49,407 --> 01:12:51,826 of years of police work. 1257 01:12:53,953 --> 01:12:56,873 [discordant pulse continues] 1258 01:13:03,213 --> 01:13:05,340 So in the book, Lyndon writes: 1259 01:13:07,967 --> 01:13:09,177 'The next hour...' 1260 01:13:09,469 --> 01:13:12,430 'was one of the most bizarre in my entire life.' 1261 01:13:14,849 --> 01:13:18,186 'Staring straight out at about a 30-degree angle,' 1262 01:13:19,521 --> 01:13:21,815 'Tucker appeared to be in another dimension,' 1263 01:13:21,981 --> 01:13:22,774 [knife carving] 1264 01:13:22,941 --> 01:13:24,484 'some kind of Twilight Zone.' 1265 01:13:24,651 --> 01:13:25,610 [moist scrape] 1266 01:13:30,240 --> 01:13:32,367 And in the context of all of the suspicions 1267 01:13:32,534 --> 01:13:34,452 that we would have built up by this point in the film, 1268 01:13:34,619 --> 01:13:39,666 I think Tucker just seeming kind of detached 1269 01:13:41,084 --> 01:13:42,544 would have become a kind of 1270 01:13:42,877 --> 01:13:45,255 absorbent surface, 1271 01:13:46,965 --> 01:13:49,384 for anything we wanted to throw at it. 1272 01:13:53,596 --> 01:13:56,141 And that's even before the... 1273 01:13:57,058 --> 01:13:58,351 the drive home. 1274 01:14:00,311 --> 01:14:02,397 [thudding pulse continues] 1275 01:14:02,939 --> 01:14:04,899 [cars passing outside] 1276 01:14:05,483 --> 01:14:09,404 So they're driving back along the I-80, down to Vallejo, 1277 01:14:10,697 --> 01:14:15,535 and I was imagining this as already a tense scenario: 1278 01:14:15,827 --> 01:14:17,787 the road stretching out before them, 1279 01:14:18,079 --> 01:14:20,874 and we're packed into this tight space 1280 01:14:21,040 --> 01:14:23,376 with our hero 1281 01:14:24,335 --> 01:14:25,378 and our villain. 1282 01:14:30,049 --> 01:14:32,010 And then that tension 1283 01:14:32,594 --> 01:14:34,929 would have ratcheted up even higher 1284 01:14:35,305 --> 01:14:38,808 once Tucker takes an unexpected turn 1285 01:14:39,559 --> 01:14:43,354 off the highway and onto this little side road called 1286 01:14:44,355 --> 01:14:46,149 Cherry Glen Road. 1287 01:14:52,489 --> 01:14:54,282 [intermittent percussive strikes] 1288 01:14:56,409 --> 01:15:00,872 And I think if we'd charted that rising tension effectively 1289 01:15:01,039 --> 01:15:03,124 it would have all felt inevitable. 1290 01:15:03,291 --> 01:15:07,462 We would've felt Lyndon's hand reaching into his pocket 1291 01:15:07,629 --> 01:15:09,339 to grab the gun before he even did it. 1292 01:15:09,506 --> 01:15:13,510 We'd have seen the Derringer coming out of the purse 1293 01:15:14,594 --> 01:15:16,846 a split second before it's on screen. 1294 01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:19,182 [pulse darkens] 1295 01:15:20,183 --> 01:15:23,645 And the audience is becoming convinced that this is it. 1296 01:15:23,811 --> 01:15:25,188 This is the moment 1297 01:15:26,523 --> 01:15:30,652 where all of the latent threat and violence of the film 1298 01:15:30,818 --> 01:15:34,280 is about to suddenly burst forth. 1299 01:15:35,823 --> 01:15:37,951 [a high note emerges from the dirge] 1300 01:15:39,327 --> 01:15:41,037 And we're pushing the tension 1301 01:15:41,579 --> 01:15:43,414 as far as it will go, 1302 01:15:45,583 --> 01:15:48,044 but we know it can only sustain 1303 01:15:48,378 --> 01:15:50,797 for so long before it has to... 1304 01:15:52,298 --> 01:15:53,508 break.... 1305 01:15:54,217 --> 01:15:55,552 somehow. 1306 01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:02,559 [high note soars, pulse thuds like a heartbeat] 1307 01:16:07,480 --> 01:16:09,774 [percussive strikes splinter into feedback] 1308 01:16:18,241 --> 01:16:21,160 [disparate sounds merge into a wall of noise] 1309 01:16:22,453 --> 01:16:23,871 But instead... 1310 01:16:24,497 --> 01:16:26,082 [music dissolves into rumble of road] 1311 01:16:26,791 --> 01:16:28,209 nothing happens. 1312 01:16:29,544 --> 01:16:30,670 They return home. 1313 01:16:31,671 --> 01:16:32,922 They're dropped off. 1314 01:16:34,048 --> 01:16:35,425 The air clears. 1315 01:16:38,636 --> 01:16:40,054 But now there's no mistaking 1316 01:16:40,346 --> 01:16:42,015 who has the upper hand. 1317 01:16:45,018 --> 01:16:45,143 You know, like 1318 01:16:45,310 --> 01:16:48,896 Like so many Zodiac victims before them, 1319 01:16:49,606 --> 01:16:53,401 he's showing them that they're at his mercy. 1320 01:16:56,446 --> 01:16:56,946 [intercom blip] 1321 01:16:57,113 --> 01:16:58,906 PRODUCER: By driving home. 1322 01:16:59,532 --> 01:17:00,992 [laughs] 1323 01:17:03,620 --> 01:17:05,830 Yeah, but on an unconventional route! 1324 01:17:07,957 --> 01:17:10,043 See, if we'd done it right, though, 1325 01:17:10,460 --> 01:17:13,296 you wouldn't be thinking like that. 1326 01:17:14,339 --> 01:17:15,840 You haven't seen enough of these things, 1327 01:17:16,007 --> 01:17:18,926 but when they work, you just kind of go with it. 1328 01:17:19,802 --> 01:17:23,931 The internal logic of the film just pulls you through. 1329 01:17:25,933 --> 01:17:31,356 And I think we'd have got the audience there by this point 1330 01:17:32,440 --> 01:17:35,068 and then we would've been on the home straight. 1331 01:17:35,568 --> 01:17:38,154 We're at an hour and 15 now. 1332 01:17:40,990 --> 01:17:43,159 So next, we would have gone to... 1333 01:17:43,993 --> 01:17:45,036 the letter. 1334 01:17:45,203 --> 01:17:46,120 [clunking keys] 1335 01:17:49,499 --> 01:17:52,752 Basically, as a sort of last resort, 1336 01:17:54,087 --> 01:17:57,006 Lyndon wrote a letter to the president, 1337 01:17:58,549 --> 01:18:01,511 and it's quite somber, quite serious, 1338 01:18:01,803 --> 01:18:04,681 all about duty and honor. 1339 01:18:06,474 --> 01:18:08,351 [noble drone] 1340 01:18:08,851 --> 01:18:10,269 He says: 1341 01:18:13,356 --> 01:18:14,857 'Mr. President,' 1342 01:18:15,942 --> 01:18:20,571 'after a devoted and dedicated 32 years of investigation,' 1343 01:18:21,698 --> 01:18:24,659 'into the infamous Zodiac Killer case,' 1344 01:18:26,703 --> 01:18:30,164 'I am in fact writing my last letter of appeal.' 1345 01:18:32,083 --> 01:18:35,044 'My request is not really about me.' 1346 01:18:36,671 --> 01:18:39,757 So he does that maneuver you see in a lot of these things, 1347 01:18:39,924 --> 01:18:42,844 which is that he reframes it... 1348 01:18:43,511 --> 01:18:47,390 as being... really about the victims, 1349 01:18:48,182 --> 01:18:49,892 and their families. 1350 01:18:51,310 --> 01:18:53,521 About seeking closure for them. 1351 01:18:55,106 --> 01:18:56,816 [distant cars] 1352 01:18:58,818 --> 01:19:00,486 And, you know... 1353 01:19:02,363 --> 01:19:03,698 Sure. 1354 01:19:06,492 --> 01:19:07,827 But... 1355 01:19:09,245 --> 01:19:11,914 as true crime's got bigger and bigger and people have got... 1356 01:19:12,081 --> 01:19:13,082 like maybe... 1357 01:19:13,791 --> 01:19:16,753 10% more squeamish about it, 1358 01:19:17,795 --> 01:19:19,714 that little disclaimer has become 1359 01:19:20,256 --> 01:19:21,758 even more ubiquitous. 1360 01:19:25,136 --> 01:19:28,765 Like, did you watch that Netflix Dahmer show? 1361 01:19:30,266 --> 01:19:33,728 I've never seen anything with such an outsized 1362 01:19:34,020 --> 01:19:37,440 sense of its own moral righteousness. 1363 01:19:38,900 --> 01:19:40,234 It's like ten episodes long, 1364 01:19:40,526 --> 01:19:42,236 and the first nine episodes are just... 1365 01:19:42,653 --> 01:19:45,239 Jeffrey Dahmer drilling into people's skulls, 1366 01:19:45,990 --> 01:19:50,244 and then the tenth episode is this lecture, about how... 1367 01:19:50,787 --> 01:19:52,371 we shouldn't really focus on... 1368 01:19:52,538 --> 01:19:54,749 Jeffrey Dahmer drilling into people's skulls... 1369 01:19:55,291 --> 01:19:57,752 'Just when you thought folks couldn't stoop any lower.' 1370 01:19:57,919 --> 01:19:58,878 'It's sick.' 1371 01:19:59,045 --> 01:20:03,090 Obviously they do the final grid. 1372 01:20:04,175 --> 01:20:06,719 That's when you know these shows really care, right? 1373 01:20:06,886 --> 01:20:10,473 When they end with a photo grid of all the victims. 1374 01:20:11,682 --> 01:20:14,352 Eight and a half cumulative hours of violent gore, 1375 01:20:14,519 --> 01:20:18,397 and now a single passport photo of each of the victims 1376 01:20:18,564 --> 01:20:20,316 to remind us what really matters. 1377 01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:22,735 [intercom blip] 1378 01:20:22,902 --> 01:20:23,986 PRODUCER: You watched it though. 1379 01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:25,571 Yeah, it was good. 1380 01:20:25,863 --> 01:20:27,281 Evan Peters. 1381 01:20:30,910 --> 01:20:32,995 [steady rumble of car] 1382 01:20:34,789 --> 01:20:36,958 So Lyndon sent his letter, 1383 01:20:38,042 --> 01:20:41,003 and then it would have been a case of waiting 1384 01:20:42,129 --> 01:20:44,966 to see if it's going to lead to anything at all. 1385 01:20:47,844 --> 01:20:49,554 And so I figured we'd have him 1386 01:20:49,846 --> 01:20:52,807 drive out to the outskirts of town, 1387 01:20:53,724 --> 01:20:56,686 where he finally has time to reflect 1388 01:20:59,272 --> 01:21:02,191 on everything he's given over to this, 1389 01:21:05,486 --> 01:21:07,113 on all the years lost 1390 01:21:08,114 --> 01:21:09,699 to the pursuit of Tucker, 1391 01:21:10,116 --> 01:21:13,578 that could all be for naught if nothing comes of it. 1392 01:21:15,621 --> 01:21:16,873 [car passes] 1393 01:21:19,333 --> 01:21:20,585 [laughs] 1394 01:21:22,253 --> 01:21:23,921 It's just so beautiful. 1395 01:21:24,505 --> 01:21:25,548 Uh... 1396 01:21:29,343 --> 01:21:31,470 We would've shot a less... 1397 01:21:31,637 --> 01:21:36,475 distractingly beautiful sunset for the actual thing, but... 1398 01:21:37,101 --> 01:21:37,768 good job, 1399 01:21:38,978 --> 01:21:39,937 nonetheless, 1400 01:21:40,897 --> 01:21:41,856 camera team. 1401 01:21:50,865 --> 01:21:52,700 [distant cars] 1402 01:21:54,493 --> 01:21:56,287 And then finally, the word comes back 1403 01:21:57,580 --> 01:21:58,664 from the FBI 1404 01:21:59,832 --> 01:22:01,959 that they're not going to take up the case. 1405 01:22:04,837 --> 01:22:07,048 And Lyndon writes quite 1406 01:22:07,423 --> 01:22:09,425 strikingly about it in the book, 1407 01:22:11,928 --> 01:22:15,181 as almost like, the end of hope, 1408 01:22:18,059 --> 01:22:19,810 where he says: 1409 01:22:22,813 --> 01:22:25,775 'So now I tell the world there is no justice,' 1410 01:22:27,318 --> 01:22:28,778 'there is no integrity,' 1411 01:22:29,695 --> 01:22:33,240 'and there are no existing laws that morality can supersede.' 1412 01:22:35,326 --> 01:22:38,704 'There is no agency and not one individual' 1413 01:22:39,705 --> 01:22:41,415 'who will step forward to intervene' 1414 01:22:41,582 --> 01:22:43,918 'in this noble cause of justice.' 1415 01:22:57,765 --> 01:23:00,309 [metal sings in the wind] 1416 01:23:02,645 --> 01:23:04,647 [distant cracks...] 1417 01:23:06,899 --> 01:23:09,443 [perhaps fireworks...] 1418 01:23:12,697 --> 01:23:14,365 I definitely haven't quite... 1419 01:23:14,865 --> 01:23:16,784 made my peace... 1420 01:23:17,827 --> 01:23:18,911 with this. 1421 01:23:20,830 --> 01:23:22,581 With not getting to make the film. 1422 01:23:26,210 --> 01:23:30,381 Like, obviously, I'm happy with what we've done instead, 1423 01:23:34,468 --> 01:23:36,595 but how many people are ever going to watch this? 1424 01:23:39,015 --> 01:23:40,307 Realistically. 1425 01:23:50,943 --> 01:23:52,945 [birdsong] 1426 01:24:00,494 --> 01:24:02,455 So in this final stretch, 1427 01:24:03,039 --> 01:24:04,832 the question would have become, 1428 01:24:05,374 --> 01:24:07,209 what is the closure 1429 01:24:08,002 --> 01:24:10,254 that the audience now needs? 1430 01:24:13,591 --> 01:24:15,051 Once it becomes clear that 1431 01:24:15,342 --> 01:24:18,304 Lyndon isn't going to definitively prove 1432 01:24:18,721 --> 01:24:20,681 that Tucker was the Zodiac Killer. 1433 01:24:23,851 --> 01:24:26,228 Not least because he wasn't, obviously. 1434 01:24:26,395 --> 01:24:28,814 But, that's... 1435 01:24:29,899 --> 01:24:31,275 parenthetical. 1436 01:24:32,109 --> 01:24:33,027 [intercom blip] 1437 01:24:33,652 --> 01:24:35,321 PRODUCER: Like, he definitely wasn't? 1438 01:24:36,155 --> 01:24:37,364 I mean... 1439 01:24:38,574 --> 01:24:39,658 no? 1440 01:24:41,243 --> 01:24:42,578 I mean, maybe. 1441 01:24:44,121 --> 01:24:46,290 But no, probably not. 1442 01:24:52,004 --> 01:24:53,214 But yeah, either way... 1443 01:24:54,090 --> 01:24:57,718 we know now that Lyndon isn't gonna get it over the line, 1444 01:24:58,636 --> 01:25:01,138 at least in a legal sense. 1445 01:25:02,389 --> 01:25:05,434 And so the stakes become much more about 1446 01:25:06,227 --> 01:25:09,063 the internal drama of the film 1447 01:25:09,522 --> 01:25:12,066 and the ending that the film demands. 1448 01:25:14,777 --> 01:25:18,823 And, the book doesn't necessarily 1449 01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:22,576 offer an obvious one, but I think that the closest one 1450 01:25:23,494 --> 01:25:27,206 I found in it, and how I was planning to end the film... 1451 01:25:28,624 --> 01:25:32,378 was with this party at Tucker's house. 1452 01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:38,801 Basically, Tucker threw a summer barbecue 1453 01:25:39,385 --> 01:25:42,346 and invited Lyndon and his wife. 1454 01:25:43,848 --> 01:25:46,559 And so they drive up there, they go inside, 1455 01:25:46,976 --> 01:25:49,687 and he describes Tucker... 1456 01:25:50,104 --> 01:25:52,231 at the bar, mixing cocktails, 1457 01:25:53,107 --> 01:25:56,318 which is a wonderfully... innocent action. 1458 01:25:56,485 --> 01:25:56,861 I don't know if we'd 1459 01:25:57,027 --> 01:25:57,862 try and like... 1460 01:25:58,571 --> 01:26:00,322 make that seem more sinister in some way. 1461 01:26:00,489 --> 01:26:03,784 Maybe he's mixing blood red cocktails. 1462 01:26:06,370 --> 01:26:10,207 The book's description of this encounter is fairly minimal. 1463 01:26:10,916 --> 01:26:11,876 He says: 1464 01:26:13,252 --> 01:26:15,588 'He looked at my wife and said, thank you,' 1465 01:26:16,172 --> 01:26:18,799 'but never made the slightest eye contact with me.' 1466 01:26:20,217 --> 01:26:21,552 'It was very awkward,' 1467 01:26:21,844 --> 01:26:24,221 'but I extended my arm for a handshake...' 1468 01:26:24,513 --> 01:26:26,182 'and felt like a complete idiot.' 1469 01:26:26,724 --> 01:26:30,311 So in Lyndon's own telling, it's an emasculating moment, 1470 01:26:31,228 --> 01:26:34,607 but I think it could've been made into the moment we needed 1471 01:26:35,149 --> 01:26:39,862 of Lyndon finally holding his own against Tucker. 1472 01:26:40,696 --> 01:26:43,032 And in particular, the thing he says about eye contact... 1473 01:26:43,699 --> 01:26:46,285 that he never made the slightest eye contact, 1474 01:26:47,328 --> 01:26:48,913 even when they're shaking hands, 1475 01:26:49,496 --> 01:26:52,333 because eye contact was how we began down this road... 1476 01:26:53,209 --> 01:26:56,295 They were in these adjoining cars, they locked eyes... 1477 01:26:57,630 --> 01:27:01,383 and then Lyndon feels that he lost face 1478 01:27:01,717 --> 01:27:04,929 by letting himself be stared down by this stranger... 1479 01:27:07,056 --> 01:27:08,766 I think this could've been the moment 1480 01:27:09,558 --> 01:27:11,518 where he reverses the dynamic: 1481 01:27:13,020 --> 01:27:14,897 [redemptive drone] 1482 01:27:15,356 --> 01:27:18,192 Where he goes in for the handshake with Tucker, 1483 01:27:19,235 --> 01:27:21,278 realizes he doesn't want to meet his eyeline, 1484 01:27:24,406 --> 01:27:26,325 but he just holds him there. 1485 01:27:27,534 --> 01:27:29,328 Maybe he won't let his hand go, 1486 01:27:31,497 --> 01:27:32,706 until Tucker... 1487 01:27:33,249 --> 01:27:35,709 raises his eyes to Lyndon's, 1488 01:27:38,212 --> 01:27:39,797 in acknowledgment, 1489 01:27:42,591 --> 01:27:45,511 and there's a sense that even if 1490 01:27:45,844 --> 01:27:48,806 he knows he's never going to see Tucker put away, 1491 01:27:50,015 --> 01:27:52,309 he's forced Tucker to recognize 1492 01:27:53,727 --> 01:27:55,813 that he is a worthy match. 1493 01:28:04,238 --> 01:28:05,823 That's actually quite good, isn't it? 1494 01:28:06,407 --> 01:28:07,658 [laughs] 1495 01:28:10,494 --> 01:28:14,331 And I think it would have been a good cue for us to 1496 01:28:15,374 --> 01:28:18,294 swerve towards a larger takeaway. 1497 01:28:19,670 --> 01:28:21,130 [soft waves] 1498 01:28:22,172 --> 01:28:26,427 You know, what is it in all of us that makes us want to... 1499 01:28:26,719 --> 01:28:28,846 revisit these terrible crimes? 1500 01:28:29,013 --> 01:28:31,932 Why can't we let the past be in the past? 1501 01:28:32,975 --> 01:28:36,478 And I think we'd be building a rhythm up by this point. 1502 01:28:36,645 --> 01:28:38,188 It's almost becoming like a montage 1503 01:28:38,355 --> 01:28:40,482 as we revisit these little moments from the film. 1504 01:28:40,649 --> 01:28:43,027 We'd have little snapshots of each crime scene, 1505 01:28:43,777 --> 01:28:46,780 and interviewees coming back to the fore to... 1506 01:28:46,947 --> 01:28:48,657 give their final thought. 1507 01:28:49,992 --> 01:28:53,245 We'd re-run our 'evocative B-roll' of... 1508 01:28:53,871 --> 01:28:54,830 bullet casings, 1509 01:28:55,122 --> 01:28:56,498 dropping to the floor and... 1510 01:28:57,249 --> 01:28:59,293 the paperwork consumed by fire. 1511 01:29:01,879 --> 01:29:03,839 And the sense you get is that there's something 1512 01:29:04,006 --> 01:29:06,425 tying all of this together, as though... 1513 01:29:06,967 --> 01:29:08,844 everything we've seen thus far was... 1514 01:29:09,011 --> 01:29:11,555 speaking ultimately to the same idea, 1515 01:29:12,097 --> 01:29:14,558 something sort of universal... 1516 01:29:14,850 --> 01:29:17,811 something profound and open-ended. 1517 01:29:19,146 --> 01:29:21,023 [soothing tones continue] 1518 01:29:21,732 --> 01:29:23,150 And you can kind of... 1519 01:29:23,609 --> 01:29:26,195 you know, at that point, re-wrap... 1520 01:29:26,737 --> 01:29:30,115 this lack of a conclusion as almost a moral virtue. 1521 01:29:32,368 --> 01:29:35,954 That actually, it would be simplistic to have an ending, 1522 01:29:36,538 --> 01:29:38,207 to give an easy answer, 1523 01:29:39,666 --> 01:29:42,628 because, what is life, 1524 01:29:43,253 --> 01:29:49,218 if not accepting the chaos of reality, 1525 01:29:50,594 --> 01:29:51,929 and the mysteries 1526 01:29:52,221 --> 01:29:54,598 at the heart of human existence? 1527 01:29:58,185 --> 01:30:00,729 [music reaches closing note] 1528 01:30:01,980 --> 01:30:04,691 It's funny, you build up the rhythm... 1529 01:30:05,067 --> 01:30:07,820 and the feel of closure... 1530 01:30:08,737 --> 01:30:11,031 and you almost just get it. 1531 01:30:18,789 --> 01:30:22,167 [meaningful drone]