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Downloaded from
YTS.BZ

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[♪ slow, pensive music begins]

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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.BZ

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[Dr. Rose] I wanna ask questions about...

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what happened within the family
that brought you to therapy.

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[♪ music continues]

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[Sophia "Arguelles" Maddox] You know,
I don't know, I come from a, a murderer.

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♪♪

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You know, who would...

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who the fuck would accept me?

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Uh, so what else do you need to know?

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Maybe the best way to start this
is to talk about my dad.

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My dad... was a great dad.

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Are you my babies?
Are you my babies? Huh?

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[Sophia] Growing up, I felt like he and I
were the only two people who existed.

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She's flying through the air!

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[Sophia] Everyone else
was living in our world.

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My parents were divorced,

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but my dad took care of me part-time.

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[Daniel Arguelles]
Time to get dressed for school.

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[Sophia] His biggest gift to me
was his imagination.

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He was a writer, actor, and director.

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What, are you kidding me?
The President's gonna be there.

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[Sophia] But he never
quite made it as a filmmaker.

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Until one day...

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he did.

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[Daniel] Action.

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[yelling]

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[Sophia]
He filmed every second of my life.

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♪♪

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There was nothing
we wouldn't do for each other.

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[young Sophia]
Can I, um, videotape, um, the world?

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[Daniel] That's what
you're doing right now.

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You're videotaping the world.

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[young Sophia] Oh, you're gonna like this.

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[traffic rumbling]

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[Sophia] I'm now that LA cliché

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of a struggling actress,
babysitter, wannabe filmmaker.

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I work a bunch of jobs,
and I have 50 bucks in the bank.

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And then, my dad and I just, uh,
got some really bad news.

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[♪ somber music playing]

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It shattered our worlds.

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[crew talking indistinctly]

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-[crew member] Bobby, you good?
-[Bobby] Yeah.

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[crew member] Okay, cool.

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This is Daniel's interview.

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[Sophia] I'm terrified.

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♪♪

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-Is it a little weird for you?
-[Daniel] Yeah.

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[Sophia] But... this is my story.

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So, this all started because
you never knew your dad.

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Yeah, yeah.

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[♪ soft music playing]

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Growing up, was always
skeptical of my father.

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Uh, he was Hispanic, of course,
with the last name Arguelles.

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And I would go up to him
and put my arm up against his

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and I'd say, "Hey, how come
I'm white and you're brown?"

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So, when I was 21, I did press my mother

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if Jim was my real father.

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[Sophia] What did she say?

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She confessed, "No, he wasn't."

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And I said, "Okay, who's my dad?"

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She said, "I really don't know."

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And when I was, you know, 18, 19 years old
in Hollywood, everybody was telling me,

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"Wow, you look just like a young Elvis."

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I like to sing, I like to dance,
I like to act.

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[imitating Elvis Presley]
How are you doing, everybody?

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That's right, it's me, Elvis Presley.

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You know, I'm doing my new album,
and it's called Loving You.

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You had a lot of Elvis impressions,
impersonations around the house.

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[normal] Yeah, I walk around
like I'm Elvis, you know?

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I gotta be Elvis, right?

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[Sophia] So, you joined Ancestry
to find your father.

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It wasn't until seven years later
you found a half-brother.

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[inhales] Right.

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He just said,
"Hey, uh, I'm Mike, and we matched."

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And I was like, "Oh, brothers, wow.

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Okay, then you know
who your dad is, maybe?"

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"Yeah, I know who he is."

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[Daniel] You know.

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Charles Manson.

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[Sophia sniffles]

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♪♪

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[♪ "My World" by Charles Manson playing]

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♪ My world is a sad world ♪

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♪ Often wonder if there's blame ♪

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♪ Such a fool ♪

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-♪ In a mad, mad world ♪
-[Sophia] Hi, Puppa. [clicks tongue]

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Did you have a good day?

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♪ Such a fool in a... ♪

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Charles Manson, to me,
he was just this cult leader

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and this murderer I had
read about on Wikipedia.

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When I found out
he was my grandfather,

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I didn't know what he looked like...

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so I decided to YouTube "Charles Manson."

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[newscaster 1]
Breaking news, Charles Manson,

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cult leader
who led a string of murders

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in the 1960s is dead.

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[newscaster 2]
With a swastika on his forehead

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and eyes wild with violence,

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Charles Manson was the face of evil.

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Maybe it was that look
in Charles Manson's eyes

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that convinced people
to murder in his name.

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[newscaster 3] He was once called
"the most dangerous man in America."

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Forty years later
and the fascination hasn't faded.

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People are still interested
in Charles Manson.

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Twenty years ago today,
America was stunned

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by one of the most brutal
killing sprees in history.

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[newscaster 4] He's been called,
"Madman, mobster,

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and monster, and murderer."

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The center of a kind of
horrible fascination that will not die.

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He's a dangerous influence on society.

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Dangerous, highly dangerous.

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[♪ suspenseful music playing]

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[newscaster 5] In a scene
described by one investigator

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as reminiscent of a weird religious rite,

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five persons, including actress
Sharon Tate, were found dead

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at the home of Miss Tate and her husband,

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screen director Roman Polanski.

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Miss Tate was eight months pregnant

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and was found with a rope around her neck
attached to the body of a man.

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Among the other victims
were Hollywood hairstylist

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Jay Sebring,
and coffee heiress Abigail Folger.

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[Thomas Noguchi]
Cause of death, multiple stab wounds

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of the chest and back.

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[newscaster 5] One officer summed up
the murders when he said,

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"In all my years, I have never seen
anything like this before."

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[newscaster 6]
A short time later, not far away,

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a middle-aged couple was found murdered

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in similar circumstances.

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[newscaster 7]
Leno LaBianca, a supermarket owner,

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and his wife had both been
stabbed to death, repeated stab wounds.

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On his body, the word "war"
had been carved in the chest.

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Then, with blood, the killer had scrawled

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the words, "Death to Pigs."

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[♪ intense music playing]

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[newscaster 6] Five members
of a so-called religious cult,

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including Charles Manson,
the guru, or high priest,

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have been indicted in the murder
of Sharon Tate and six others.

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[Vincent Bugliosi] These defendants
literally entered the homes of citizens

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of this community at random

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and literally slaughtered the victims
in an orgy of murder.

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[newscaster 8]
All the elements are present

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for one of the most sensational
murder trials in American history.

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The involvement of a mystical hippie clan,

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which despised
the straight, affluent society.

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Young girls, supposedly under the spell
of a bearded Svengali,

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who allegedly masterminded
the seven murders.

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[newscaster 7] In a conspiracy,
the acts of one member

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are attributed to all members.

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Under that approach, they needn't prove
that he actually did the killing.

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It's all a play, isn't it?

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[newscaster 7]
The act of the murders themselves

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will be the case against the other members
of the so-called Family.

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Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel,

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Leslie Van Houten, Charles Watson.

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[Vincent] Manson's principle motive

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for ordering the seven
Tate-LaBianca murders

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was his fanatical obsession
with"Helter Skelter,"

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a term he borrowed from the English
musical recording group The Beatles.

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To ignite Helter Skelter,
to start the Black/white, uh, revolution,

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Manson envisioned that white people

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would turn against the Black man
if they thought

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the Black man had committed
these seven murders.

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The victims, by necessity, had to be white

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and preferably in the white establishment.

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[newscaster 1]
The jury hearing the charges

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against Charles Manson
and three girl members

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of his so-called Family
brought in its verdict.

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All were found guilty
of murder in the first degree.

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[newscaster 2]
Manson then shouted at the jurors,

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"You're all guilty.

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We are still not allowed
to put on a defense."

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The press has been the mouthpiece
of the prosecution.

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And they've succeeded in brainwashing
a lot of people.

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Charlie never preached a “Race War."

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-That's what the DA gave you for reality.
-[Tom Snyder] Okay.

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He stood in the courtroom and said,

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"This man did this,
and this man did that,"

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and you all believed him.

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[♪ music fades out]

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[Sophia clears throat, sniffles]

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[Sophia] Those first few days
after I found out...

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I don't think I've ever been
that low in my life.

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I kinda hated myself.

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I hated him.

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[exhales]

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I've always been the good one.

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I've always been the one, or the kid,

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with her head screwed on right.

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I would always get these, like,
integrity or caring awards, and...

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all of the teachers would tell my parents
how nice I was to everybody and...

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if someone was lonely,
I'd go sit next to them,

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or if I saw someone bullied,
I'd stand up against the bully and...

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I always took really great pride
in being this moral, good person.

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[♪ pensive music playing]

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And then you find out
your grandfather's Manson...

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[sobbing]

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...the most hated man.

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How could my blood do something so...

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atrocious?

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How could my blood...

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be the cause of other people's bloodshed?

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[♪ tense music playing]

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If it's true that there
was something in him

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that made him this satanic cult leader...

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do my dad and I
have that in our blood too?

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[reel clicking]

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I have his eyes.

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His hands are my dad's.

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It fucks with you.

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Was he born evil or was it something else?

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I need to find out what made him.

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[birds chirping]

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I don't know, I just feel like
I, for sure, need a therapist.

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I'm the spawn of the spawn
of the spawn of Satan.

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You know, he was called second to Hitler.

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[Dr. Rose] Um, I don't want
to minimize what you're sharing...

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but I may challenge
parts of your narrative.

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Being the descendant
of somebody labeled "a monster among men,"

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it is your God-given right
to break that down

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and to make sense of that.

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I think a part of the information
that you're coming into

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is that there are parts
of Charlie's narrative

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that was sensationalized.

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If you're not careful
as one of his descendants,

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you will carry the sensationalization,

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-and that is not yours to carry.
-Yeah.

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So, breaking down
the sensationalization of him,

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what is true?

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What is accurate? What is real?

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So I am clear about what I need to break

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-and what I don't need to carry.
-Yeah.

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[Dr. Rose]
Why would I carry, um, fabricated wounds?

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-Right?
-Okay.

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-[Dr. Rose] Yeah?
-Yeah.

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I'm gonna face him.
I'm gonna face what he did.

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I am not a journalist.

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It's going to be really hard
to dig out the truth,

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and I have to try and stay objective.

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[line ringing]

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To understand his true pathology,

243
00:12:48,726 --> 00:12:50,144
my gut tells me I should track down

244
00:12:50,228 --> 00:12:53,273
the only surviving prosecutor,
Stephen Kay.

245
00:12:53,356 --> 00:12:55,817
I am just giving you a call.

246
00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:58,861
I am directing a documentary
about Charles Manson.

247
00:13:01,406 --> 00:13:04,325
Okay, um... Hmm.

248
00:13:04,409 --> 00:13:07,620
I've reached out to victims' relatives.

249
00:13:07,704 --> 00:13:13,001
It's actually kind of a different approach
than you might think.

250
00:13:13,084 --> 00:13:16,462
But people seem to not want to talk to me

251
00:13:16,546 --> 00:13:19,716
because I'm
Charles Manson's granddaughter.

252
00:13:19,799 --> 00:13:21,009
I see.

253
00:13:22,218 --> 00:13:23,594
Okay, thank you.

254
00:13:25,263 --> 00:13:27,223
Now that I'm Manson's granddaughter,

255
00:13:28,141 --> 00:13:31,561
people assume that I'm not so moral.

256
00:13:31,644 --> 00:13:34,647
[speaking gibberish]

257
00:13:34,731 --> 00:13:36,607
But I'm the same person as I was

258
00:13:36,691 --> 00:13:38,985
before I found out
I'm Manson's granddaughter.

259
00:13:40,194 --> 00:13:41,946
I have not changed.

260
00:13:44,657 --> 00:13:47,493
I'm not really sure
what I'm getting myself into,

261
00:13:47,577 --> 00:13:49,329
but I'll take anybody.

262
00:13:49,412 --> 00:13:51,914
[♪ pensive music playing]

263
00:13:53,875 --> 00:13:56,294
I tracked down a friend
of my grandfather's.

264
00:13:57,045 --> 00:13:58,921
Charlie called him "Black Wolf."

265
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,302
He's an ex-con,
someone who's lived in the underworld.

266
00:14:05,511 --> 00:14:07,722
He prefers to keep his face off camera,

267
00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:10,892
and I'm nervous to meet someone

268
00:14:10,975 --> 00:14:13,019
who's come face-to-face with Manson.

269
00:14:16,856 --> 00:14:19,192
You made a promise to stay in the shadows
for my grandfather.

270
00:14:20,818 --> 00:14:22,862
So, what made you
make this exception for me?

271
00:14:23,696 --> 00:14:26,324
[Black Wolf] I think
'cause you're his blood, for one thing.

272
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,994
And I think that your intentions are pure.

273
00:14:31,287 --> 00:14:32,830
Uh, seemingly to me.

274
00:14:33,790 --> 00:14:35,917
[Sophia] What was
your relationship with him?

275
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,671
[Black Wolf]
I wrote Charlie in 2007, just a letter,

276
00:14:40,755 --> 00:14:42,965
included, uh, my phone number.

277
00:14:43,049 --> 00:14:44,759
And then he called.

278
00:14:44,842 --> 00:14:48,846
He would call, probably,
three times a week, even more.

279
00:14:49,847 --> 00:14:52,934
And then, from there,
we had a relationship for 10 years.

280
00:14:54,519 --> 00:14:58,022
This is all the phone calls
that I had with Charles,

281
00:14:58,106 --> 00:15:01,526
for you to listen to and... learn more.

282
00:15:04,278 --> 00:15:06,572
How many of these calls are on here?

283
00:15:06,656 --> 00:15:10,076
[Black Wolf]
Close to 800. I think, like, 780, yeah.

284
00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:11,661
It'll take some time.

285
00:15:11,744 --> 00:15:13,496
[♪ suspenseful music playing]

286
00:15:20,086 --> 00:15:21,087
[phone beeps]

287
00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:22,797
[prison operator] [on phone]
Your call is being connected.

288
00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,173
[Black Wolf] [on phone]
How's it goin', man?

289
00:15:25,842 --> 00:15:27,552
[Black Wolf] Yeah. I wanted to ask you
if, if there was any way

290
00:15:27,635 --> 00:15:29,637
that I could be
a member of your family?

291
00:15:34,392 --> 00:15:35,726
-[Black Wolf] No, I know it.
-[phone beeps]

292
00:15:50,908 --> 00:15:51,951
[phone beeps]

293
00:16:13,723 --> 00:16:14,724
[Black Wolf] Yeah.

294
00:16:19,437 --> 00:16:20,771
[Black Wolf] The system definitely.

295
00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:29,071
[♪ unsettling music playing]

296
00:16:29,155 --> 00:16:31,240
[Sophia] Charlie could be
playing Black Wolf,

297
00:16:31,324 --> 00:16:33,826
or telling him the story
no one wanted to hear.

298
00:16:34,911 --> 00:16:38,664
I've gotta go to Indiana Boys' School
to see for myself.

299
00:16:38,748 --> 00:16:42,835
I submitted my family's DNA to unlock
my grandfather's sealed records.

300
00:16:44,462 --> 00:16:46,464
I hope to find the truth in them.

301
00:16:47,131 --> 00:16:48,758
[airplane droning]

302
00:16:52,929 --> 00:16:56,807
Every time I bring this up,
you seem to be afraid for me.

303
00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:01,854
[Daniel] [on phone] I want you
to be happy and healthy, and...

304
00:17:03,773 --> 00:17:08,277
you know, this is not really
a happy, healthy subject matter.

305
00:17:09,612 --> 00:17:12,198
Unfortunately, we're all raised
by dysfunctional people

306
00:17:12,281 --> 00:17:14,075
who were raised by dysfunctional people,

307
00:17:14,158 --> 00:17:18,913
and... you've been
so battered down by the way

308
00:17:18,996 --> 00:17:21,666
the trajectory of all
of our lives have been.

309
00:17:21,749 --> 00:17:25,878
You are a very, very resilient person.

310
00:17:25,962 --> 00:17:27,797
♪♪

311
00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,051
You're doing the right things,
and you're going in the right directions.

312
00:17:32,134 --> 00:17:34,136
♪♪

313
00:17:39,267 --> 00:17:41,102
[gate beeping]

314
00:17:47,191 --> 00:17:49,235
[newscaster]
In this neighborhood in Indianapolis,

315
00:17:49,318 --> 00:17:53,030
he had his first brush with the law
for stealing a bicycle, and then a car.

316
00:17:53,114 --> 00:17:54,282
He was 14.

317
00:17:54,365 --> 00:17:56,367
♪♪

318
00:17:56,993 --> 00:17:58,744
He was sent to the Indiana Boys' School.

319
00:17:58,828 --> 00:18:00,204
He wouldn't conform to the rules

320
00:18:00,288 --> 00:18:02,582
and was moved
from one dormitory to another.

321
00:18:02,665 --> 00:18:06,294
Manson compiled 28 bad conduct reports
in two years.

322
00:18:06,377 --> 00:18:08,504
[psychologist] He was a, as I described,

323
00:18:08,588 --> 00:18:10,590
perhaps, 20 years ago,

324
00:18:10,673 --> 00:18:14,010
a chronic discipline problem
even at that time.

325
00:18:14,093 --> 00:18:16,220
♪♪

326
00:18:16,304 --> 00:18:17,513
[Sophia] So, this is the school.

327
00:18:17,597 --> 00:18:19,599
[Bob Gipson] Yes, didn't change much.

328
00:18:20,182 --> 00:18:23,436
Uh, these are
the original desks right here

329
00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:25,605
that was used back in the day.

330
00:18:27,982 --> 00:18:29,483
[Sophia] Even when
my grandfather was here?

331
00:18:29,567 --> 00:18:30,943
-[Bob] Yes.
-[Sophia] Wow.

332
00:18:32,153 --> 00:18:34,530
[Bob] Let me give you guys
a moment to, uh...

333
00:18:34,614 --> 00:18:36,157
-Thank you.
-...do what you need to do.

334
00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:37,283
-Appreciate it.
-[Dan Macallair] Thank you, Bob.

335
00:18:38,409 --> 00:18:40,828
So, what I'd like to do is
just go through the records.

336
00:18:40,911 --> 00:18:41,954
My grandfather's records?

337
00:18:42,038 --> 00:18:44,457
Your grandfather's record
while he was here.

338
00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:47,293
I wanna emphasize something,
that this is rather unusual

339
00:18:47,376 --> 00:18:48,961
that we've got the full set of records.

340
00:18:49,045 --> 00:18:53,799
Very often, the in-institutions
will destroy them after a period of time.

341
00:18:53,883 --> 00:18:56,802
Understand that this is
only part of the story,

342
00:18:56,886 --> 00:19:00,973
and it's part of the story that's told
by the institution itself.

343
00:19:01,057 --> 00:19:02,725
Would the institution sanitize?

344
00:19:02,808 --> 00:19:04,352
Yes, I was just gonna use that word.

345
00:19:04,435 --> 00:19:05,770
-Okay.
-So, yes.

346
00:19:05,853 --> 00:19:08,898
So, this is somewhat
of a sanitized version.

347
00:19:08,981 --> 00:19:11,817
This is, uh, March 31st, 1949.

348
00:19:11,901 --> 00:19:13,903
So, this is his commitment order.

349
00:19:15,196 --> 00:19:19,992
Um, "Charles was referred
to the juvenile court, 1948,

350
00:19:20,076 --> 00:19:21,494
"by the police department who discovered

351
00:19:21,577 --> 00:19:23,704
"that he had stolen a bicycle,
entered a grocery store,

352
00:19:23,788 --> 00:19:25,247
and stolen an automobile."

353
00:19:25,331 --> 00:19:26,374
[Dan] Mm-hmm.

354
00:19:26,457 --> 00:19:28,125
"Charles said he was very unhappy at home

355
00:19:28,209 --> 00:19:30,378
"and that he thought of running away.

356
00:19:30,461 --> 00:19:32,880
"He said his mother was continuously
becoming intoxicated

357
00:19:32,963 --> 00:19:34,131
and was promiscuous."

358
00:19:34,215 --> 00:19:35,299
-Wow.
-[Dan] Mm-hmm.

359
00:19:35,383 --> 00:19:38,052
[Sophia] "Statement of Boy Being Punished.

360
00:19:38,135 --> 00:19:41,847
"I asked that corporal punishment
be administered to Charles Manson.

361
00:19:41,931 --> 00:19:43,599
Offense: Escape."

362
00:19:43,683 --> 00:19:47,103
In '49, so it's, like,
the first year he was here.

363
00:19:47,186 --> 00:19:49,563
Yeah, so they were--
called it "paddling,"

364
00:19:49,647 --> 00:19:52,733
which was common form of punishment

365
00:19:52,817 --> 00:19:55,027
in institutions like this at the time.

366
00:19:55,111 --> 00:19:56,654
[Sophia] He would talk
about this in interviews.

367
00:19:56,737 --> 00:19:58,572
[Tom] All the pain
that you've caused people,

368
00:19:58,656 --> 00:20:01,450
-all the anguish you've caused--
-Oh. Oh, I don't know pain.

369
00:20:01,534 --> 00:20:03,994
I don't know pain.
I have no depth of pain.

370
00:20:04,078 --> 00:20:05,746
I have no depth of suffering.

371
00:20:05,830 --> 00:20:09,333
I haven't been punished by you all my life
since I was 10 years old.

372
00:20:09,417 --> 00:20:12,044
I've been in every reform school
you got across the country

373
00:20:12,128 --> 00:20:13,796
and used to lay down
and have to get my ass whipped

374
00:20:13,879 --> 00:20:15,464
'til I couldn't walk.

375
00:20:15,548 --> 00:20:17,049
Tell me about some pain.

376
00:20:17,133 --> 00:20:18,968
[Sophia] "Number of strokes given, 10.

377
00:20:19,051 --> 00:20:21,846
-Was skin cut or bruised? No."
-[Dan] Yeah.

378
00:20:21,929 --> 00:20:24,181
[Sophia] Do you believe it
when they say "mild"?

379
00:20:24,265 --> 00:20:25,558
[Dan] Uh... [laughs]

380
00:20:25,641 --> 00:20:28,644
There would've been a tendency to, um...

381
00:20:29,186 --> 00:20:32,064
sometimes minimize the severity
of the, of the punishment.

382
00:20:33,149 --> 00:20:35,151
These would've been, in-in a case

383
00:20:35,234 --> 00:20:38,571
where a more serious infraction,
usually running away.

384
00:20:38,654 --> 00:20:40,406
And that was his thing. He was--

385
00:20:40,489 --> 00:20:42,450
I think he tried 18 times
when he was here.

386
00:20:43,075 --> 00:20:45,202
The only way to keep the kids
in the institutions

387
00:20:45,286 --> 00:20:48,914
was to... uh, punish them severely.

388
00:20:51,208 --> 00:20:53,043
[Sophia] "The big debate was,
should they beat the boys

389
00:20:53,127 --> 00:20:55,463
"with their trousers on or off.

390
00:20:55,546 --> 00:20:57,298
"When the leather strap had no effect,

391
00:20:57,381 --> 00:20:59,842
"the guards would take
them out in the cornfield

392
00:20:59,925 --> 00:21:01,552
and beat the piss out of them."

393
00:21:02,595 --> 00:21:06,515
I didn't realize it was that bad.

394
00:21:07,641 --> 00:21:10,102
[Dan] Here's a story
about them with the escape.

395
00:21:10,186 --> 00:21:14,273
Mm-hmm. "This kid escaped
Indiana Boys' School...

396
00:21:15,065 --> 00:21:16,192
and was interviewed in--"

397
00:21:16,275 --> 00:21:17,359
[Dan] With Charlie.

398
00:21:17,443 --> 00:21:18,444
-Oh, really?
-[Dan] Yeah.

399
00:21:18,861 --> 00:21:20,780
[Sophia] "Manson said,
'I was kicked in the back

400
00:21:20,863 --> 00:21:22,990
"for not working fast enough
on the school farm.'

401
00:21:23,073 --> 00:21:27,161
"He also had been forced to hold
other boys who were being thrashed.

402
00:21:27,244 --> 00:21:30,664
"Quote, 'You haven't got much choice
when they tell you to do it,

403
00:21:30,748 --> 00:21:33,334
but you'd rather take it
yourself than hold them.'"

404
00:21:33,417 --> 00:21:34,543
[Dan] Mm-hmm.

405
00:21:34,627 --> 00:21:36,962
[Sophia] "'A boy who refuses
to hold another boy for beating

406
00:21:37,046 --> 00:21:39,006
receives a beating himself,' Manson said."

407
00:21:39,089 --> 00:21:41,300
He'd only know that
if he refused to hold him down.

408
00:21:41,383 --> 00:21:42,468
[Dan] Yeah.

409
00:21:43,052 --> 00:21:45,262
[Sophia] I can't really think of anyone...

410
00:21:46,555 --> 00:21:50,142
any boy or any minor
who would deserve any of this,

411
00:21:50,226 --> 00:21:51,560
no matter what they've done.

412
00:21:51,644 --> 00:21:53,062
It's just inhumane.

413
00:21:54,355 --> 00:21:56,232
Your grandfather was
a product of the failure

414
00:21:56,315 --> 00:21:57,983
of the juvenile justice system.

415
00:21:59,068 --> 00:22:00,528
He wasn't born that way.

416
00:22:01,153 --> 00:22:04,114
He-He is a product of the, of the system,

417
00:22:04,198 --> 00:22:06,742
and it's a system that failed.

418
00:22:06,826 --> 00:22:08,828
♪♪

419
00:22:10,913 --> 00:22:12,748
[Bob] This, this part here
has not changed.

420
00:22:12,832 --> 00:22:15,501
This housing unit here
would've, would've housed kids

421
00:22:15,584 --> 00:22:18,379
from 14 to 16 years old.

422
00:22:18,462 --> 00:22:20,965
35 to 40 students would've been in here.

423
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:22,925
[Sophia] Fuck.

424
00:22:25,427 --> 00:22:27,137
Was there any sexual assault?

425
00:22:28,055 --> 00:22:29,056
[Bob] Occasionally.

426
00:22:30,057 --> 00:22:32,685
Some of the biggest challenges is, um,

427
00:22:32,768 --> 00:22:36,689
if you had a, a more dominant student,

428
00:22:36,772 --> 00:22:39,316
he might prey on a younger student.

429
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,943
[Sophia] One of the things that I read

430
00:22:41,026 --> 00:22:44,864
was that my grandfather was gang-raped...

431
00:22:44,947 --> 00:22:47,783
-[Dan] Mm-hmm.
-...in... a boys' school.

432
00:22:47,867 --> 00:22:49,159
I think he said it was this one.

433
00:22:49,827 --> 00:22:52,955
He was small stature.
He was 15 years old.

434
00:22:53,497 --> 00:22:55,958
So, he would've been
vulnerable to assault.

435
00:22:56,041 --> 00:22:59,128
The reality of life here,
I mean, it wasn't easy.

436
00:23:00,462 --> 00:23:03,215
[Sophia] But also,
he raped a boy at knifepoint?

437
00:23:03,299 --> 00:23:06,677
That was always a problem
in a facility like this.

438
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,805
His argument was
he was protecting himself, but, like--

439
00:23:09,889 --> 00:23:11,015
Yeah.

440
00:23:11,098 --> 00:23:14,435
What a cruel thing to have to

441
00:23:14,518 --> 00:23:17,980
feel like you're protected
by being the aggressor.

442
00:23:18,063 --> 00:23:20,274
Unfortunately, too, too many situations,

443
00:23:20,357 --> 00:23:22,693
kids coming through
institutions like this,

444
00:23:22,776 --> 00:23:26,238
they learn their lessons in survival.

445
00:23:26,322 --> 00:23:28,866
Social workers in those institutions

446
00:23:28,949 --> 00:23:31,744
are identifying one of
the major problems for him

447
00:23:31,827 --> 00:23:33,329
and his adjustment is the fact

448
00:23:33,412 --> 00:23:36,206
that he spent so much time
in an institution like this

449
00:23:36,290 --> 00:23:38,834
that he wasn't prepared
to enter the outside world.

450
00:23:39,460 --> 00:23:42,630
Yeah, my, my dad--
I was raised with my dad telling me

451
00:23:42,713 --> 00:23:45,549
about his time
at a military reformatory school.

452
00:23:45,633 --> 00:23:46,842
And, um...

453
00:23:48,719 --> 00:23:49,845
Yeah.

454
00:23:51,388 --> 00:23:53,057
[Daniel] When I was eight years old...

455
00:23:54,058 --> 00:23:58,228
I went to Mt. Lowe Military Academy
in Pasadena, California.

456
00:23:58,312 --> 00:24:00,856
♪♪

457
00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:01,941
Uh...

458
00:24:04,777 --> 00:24:07,655
It was a, a hell hole.

459
00:24:07,738 --> 00:24:10,991
It was, it was the worst of the worst.

460
00:24:11,075 --> 00:24:13,035
It was Lord of the Flies.

461
00:24:14,703 --> 00:24:19,124
Kids would come around the corner
and walk up to me and say,

462
00:24:19,208 --> 00:24:21,418
"Hey, I'll suck your dick
if you suck my dick."

463
00:24:22,962 --> 00:24:26,757
I was just a kid.
I was like, "What's a dick?"

464
00:24:27,341 --> 00:24:28,509
Uh...

465
00:24:29,468 --> 00:24:32,221
First thing the commandant did
was molest me.

466
00:24:32,304 --> 00:24:34,640
Second thing, they gave me a gun.

467
00:24:34,723 --> 00:24:37,726
So, I shot the shit out of that target.

468
00:24:39,228 --> 00:24:40,813
And I was so good that they took me

469
00:24:40,896 --> 00:24:43,565
to other military schools to show me off.

470
00:24:44,566 --> 00:24:47,361
And if they would've asked me
why I was such a good shot,

471
00:24:47,444 --> 00:24:50,155
I would've told 'em that I pictured
that commandant who molested me

472
00:24:50,239 --> 00:24:53,826
and that-- my parents on that target
for sending me to that God-awful place.

473
00:24:57,454 --> 00:24:59,415
[♪ somber music playing]

474
00:24:59,498 --> 00:25:01,709
[Sophia sobbing]

475
00:25:01,792 --> 00:25:03,961
[Dr. Rose] What's coming up, Sophia?

476
00:25:04,044 --> 00:25:05,212
[Sophia] Um...

477
00:25:05,295 --> 00:25:07,381
I think first time
he told me he was molested

478
00:25:07,464 --> 00:25:08,966
was when I was a kid, too.

479
00:25:09,049 --> 00:25:11,343
And so-- But it was out of, like...

480
00:25:12,177 --> 00:25:16,223
He would train me. He would be like,
"Has anyone touched you?"

481
00:25:16,306 --> 00:25:17,683
-[Dr. Rose] Okay.
-You know, he just wanted to make sure

482
00:25:17,766 --> 00:25:19,268
-we weren't touched.
-[Dr. Rose] Okay.

483
00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:24,314
[Sophia] He trained me
to be, like, a survivor and a fighter

484
00:25:24,398 --> 00:25:25,858
because of his pain.

485
00:25:26,692 --> 00:25:29,319
[Dr. Rose] So, that would be
the intergenerational trauma.

486
00:25:31,030 --> 00:25:35,075
The hand-me-down
of maladaptive coping responses.

487
00:25:35,159 --> 00:25:38,495
Because I went through something,
I'm going to introduce it

488
00:25:38,579 --> 00:25:41,623
[chuckles] to you to prepare
you to not go through it.

489
00:25:41,707 --> 00:25:43,083
But in order to introduce it to you,

490
00:25:43,167 --> 00:25:46,378
I also have to introduce
the trauma element of it, right?

491
00:25:46,462 --> 00:25:48,672
And send your brain into survival mode.

492
00:25:50,424 --> 00:25:53,093
I am not, by any means,
questioning your dad's love for you.

493
00:25:53,177 --> 00:25:54,678
I-I believe it.

494
00:25:55,262 --> 00:25:58,682
But what happens when we are loved
from wounded spaces.

495
00:26:01,143 --> 00:26:03,437
Something else
that I'm hearing in you too, um,

496
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,689
have you ever heard
the term "parentified child"?

497
00:26:06,273 --> 00:26:08,525
-Just from you.
-[Dr. Rose] [laughs] Okay.

498
00:26:08,609 --> 00:26:10,861
If you tell any child, like,

499
00:26:10,944 --> 00:26:12,446
"This happened to me, and that happened,"

500
00:26:12,529 --> 00:26:15,532
like, you see the person you love
in pain and I wanna fix it.

501
00:26:15,616 --> 00:26:19,453
And so, we go into a reverse role
with the parents.

502
00:26:19,536 --> 00:26:23,957
Now, I feel a higher sense
of responsibility over you, right?

503
00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:27,795
Start to think about boundaries
around this whole process

504
00:26:27,878 --> 00:26:30,380
of unraveling to become.

505
00:26:30,964 --> 00:26:34,802
'Cause you're in the process
of becoming the first generation

506
00:26:34,885 --> 00:26:37,096
who will not follow the same patterns.

507
00:26:38,889 --> 00:26:41,350
You're the one
who's breaking generational dynamics

508
00:26:41,433 --> 00:26:43,352
and saying, "I'm going to work on myself."

509
00:26:44,853 --> 00:26:48,357
"I am because they weren't."
That is our mantra.

510
00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:52,069
"I am because they weren't."

511
00:26:54,571 --> 00:26:59,868
[Daniel] In 2017, I fell into this abyss.

512
00:27:00,452 --> 00:27:01,453
[camera shutter clicks]

513
00:27:02,496 --> 00:27:04,623
I just basically said to God,

514
00:27:05,165 --> 00:27:07,918
"Until you reveal to me who my father is,

515
00:27:08,460 --> 00:27:10,462
"I'm quitting everything.

516
00:27:11,088 --> 00:27:15,759
"I'm not working.
I'm not loving. I'm not living.

517
00:27:16,510 --> 00:27:20,848
I'm not doing anything.
I will sleep under a park bench."

518
00:27:20,931 --> 00:27:24,309
And so, I did that, I shut down.
I didn't do anything.

519
00:27:24,393 --> 00:27:26,728
I just always wanted to know
who your dad was.

520
00:27:26,812 --> 00:27:30,816
[Daniel] Yeah...
I never knew him, but I know him.

521
00:27:30,899 --> 00:27:32,109
You know what I mean?

522
00:27:33,485 --> 00:27:35,487
I am him, but I'm not him.

523
00:27:39,366 --> 00:27:42,119
[Sophia] I always felt
similar to my dad, too.

524
00:27:42,202 --> 00:27:44,204
Was that just an echo of their trauma,

525
00:27:44,788 --> 00:27:48,000
or was that Charlie whispering to us
through our genes?

526
00:27:48,834 --> 00:27:51,753
If I keep digging, what will I find?

527
00:27:53,797 --> 00:27:56,675
♪♪

528
00:27:58,427 --> 00:28:00,095
[newscaster 1] The sensational headlines

529
00:28:00,512 --> 00:28:05,434
quickly turn from the Sharon Tate murders
to the trial of Charles Manson.

530
00:28:05,517 --> 00:28:07,352
[newscaster 2] Seven murders
and conspiracy are charged

531
00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:11,732
against four defendants,
requiring 27 different verdicts.

532
00:28:11,815 --> 00:28:13,734
[newscaster 3]
The case has since become a bizarre

533
00:28:13,817 --> 00:28:16,361
national and international sensation,

534
00:28:16,445 --> 00:28:18,280
attracting the attention of everyone

535
00:28:18,363 --> 00:28:20,741
from President Nixon to the curious people

536
00:28:20,824 --> 00:28:23,285
who sit in the courtroom
where the case is being heard.

537
00:28:23,368 --> 00:28:25,412
No one in this entire metropolis was safe.

538
00:28:25,495 --> 00:28:28,832
Animals don't treat
even their own kind like

539
00:28:28,916 --> 00:28:31,210
these people did our people.

540
00:28:32,794 --> 00:28:34,880
[Daniel] When I was 10 years old...

541
00:28:36,006 --> 00:28:39,635
1970, his picture was

542
00:28:39,718 --> 00:28:41,720
all over the front page.

543
00:28:41,803 --> 00:28:44,723
[♪ ominous music playing]

544
00:28:46,808 --> 00:28:48,352
He was everywhere.

545
00:28:51,438 --> 00:28:55,651
I think my mother knew
that my dad is Charles Manson.

546
00:28:56,902 --> 00:28:59,738
I remember my mother
cornered me in a bathroom...

547
00:29:03,075 --> 00:29:04,534
[voice breaking] beat the hell outta me.

548
00:29:06,245 --> 00:29:09,373
The vacuum cleaner cord, the plug end...

549
00:29:10,999 --> 00:29:12,542
for about five minutes.

550
00:29:14,962 --> 00:29:16,380
I didn't do anything.

551
00:29:19,424 --> 00:29:23,428
It was just her venting her shame
and her rage out on me.

552
00:29:23,512 --> 00:29:25,430
[♪ somber music playing]

553
00:29:27,641 --> 00:29:30,435
[birds chirping]

554
00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:32,938
[Sophia] I'm doing some research now,

555
00:29:33,522 --> 00:29:36,525
and the similarities
between my dad and Charles

556
00:29:36,608 --> 00:29:38,819
are kind of eerie from birth.

557
00:29:39,611 --> 00:29:42,406
Charles Manson was born
to a teenage mother

558
00:29:42,489 --> 00:29:44,783
and a father that disappeared.

559
00:29:44,866 --> 00:29:49,371
My dad was born in 1959 to a mother

560
00:29:49,454 --> 00:29:51,873
who was a teenager, was 17 years old,

561
00:29:51,957 --> 00:29:55,627
and a father who just disappeared.

562
00:29:55,711 --> 00:30:00,007
Charles Manson was my age
when he met my grandmother,

563
00:30:00,590 --> 00:30:02,926
and he went by the name of Charlie Dear.

564
00:30:03,635 --> 00:30:08,640
Um, he had just gotten
out of prison for pimping.

565
00:30:09,474 --> 00:30:12,561
The story goes that
they met at a bus stop,

566
00:30:12,644 --> 00:30:15,814
and they had a one-night,
possibly two-night stand.

567
00:30:16,857 --> 00:30:18,900
When my grandmother
realized she was pregnant,

568
00:30:18,984 --> 00:30:21,069
Charlie was back in prison.

569
00:30:21,153 --> 00:30:26,158
He was sentenced 10 years
for forging a $37.50 check.

570
00:30:26,241 --> 00:30:28,660
It's sad to think he could've
stayed with our family,

571
00:30:28,744 --> 00:30:30,954
but maybe he was more comfortable

572
00:30:31,038 --> 00:30:33,498
with the only family he had ever known.

573
00:30:33,999 --> 00:30:37,294
[Jeff Melnick] Manson, essentially,
he's in jail from the time he's 12

574
00:30:37,377 --> 00:30:39,880
'til he gets out in 1967.

575
00:30:39,963 --> 00:30:41,214
There's a larger cultural truth here,

576
00:30:41,298 --> 00:30:44,092
which is that, like,
incarceration breaks people.

577
00:30:44,176 --> 00:30:46,887
[♪ pensive music playing]

578
00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:49,348
Manson's a gr--
like, a great example of that,

579
00:30:49,431 --> 00:30:51,433
of, like, being incarcerated
at a young age

580
00:30:51,516 --> 00:30:54,227
means you're gonna carry stuff out

581
00:30:54,311 --> 00:30:55,937
that's gonna make it
really impossible for you

582
00:30:56,021 --> 00:30:57,731
to be, like, normally functioning.

583
00:30:57,814 --> 00:30:59,608
And I think he would
say that in interviews.

584
00:30:59,691 --> 00:31:01,234
He would be like,
"I'm not from your world."

585
00:31:01,318 --> 00:31:03,028
-[Jeff] Right.
-"I was incarcerated my whole life.

586
00:31:03,111 --> 00:31:04,112
-I'm not from your world."
-[Jeff] That's right. Oh, yeah.

587
00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:05,864
Oh, he literally put it
in the language of "family."

588
00:31:06,323 --> 00:31:07,532
[Charles Manson]
I've been in jail all my life.

589
00:31:07,991 --> 00:31:10,035
All the men in the joint raised me up,
told me what to do,

590
00:31:10,118 --> 00:31:11,161
what was right and wrong.

591
00:31:11,244 --> 00:31:12,329
Told me when to sit down, stand up.

592
00:31:12,412 --> 00:31:13,747
I just did everything I was told.

593
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:15,332
-[Jeff] He performed a lot.
-Yeah.

594
00:31:15,415 --> 00:31:17,334
[Jeff] But when he said that,
I don't think he was performing.

595
00:31:17,417 --> 00:31:18,418
Yeah.

596
00:31:18,502 --> 00:31:21,380
How and when did he create
the Manson Family?

597
00:31:22,547 --> 00:31:25,926
[Jeff]
So, Manson comes out of jail in 1967,

598
00:31:26,009 --> 00:31:27,886
hits San Francisco Summer of Love.

599
00:31:27,969 --> 00:31:31,306
This is the kind of, like,
coming out summer

600
00:31:31,390 --> 00:31:34,434
of the counterculture, of their practices,

601
00:31:34,518 --> 00:31:36,311
which include free love.

602
00:31:36,895 --> 00:31:38,688
Manson, he's got big eyes.

603
00:31:38,772 --> 00:31:41,108
He's not, like, standard hippie age,
he's in his 30s.

604
00:31:41,191 --> 00:31:42,692
And he starts meeting women
in the Bay Area...

605
00:31:43,735 --> 00:31:45,779
and kind of gathering his tribe.

606
00:31:45,862 --> 00:31:48,240
♪♪

607
00:31:50,117 --> 00:31:51,159
[Sophia] What were that women like?

608
00:31:51,243 --> 00:31:52,536
Did they come from good families?

609
00:31:52,619 --> 00:31:54,413
Did they have family of their own?

610
00:31:54,496 --> 00:31:57,749
If you read the press coverage
of the Manson women,

611
00:31:57,833 --> 00:32:00,001
they were almost, you know,

612
00:32:00,085 --> 00:32:03,171
unanimously depicted
as these, like, witches,

613
00:32:03,255 --> 00:32:06,758
these terrible, like, purposefully evil,

614
00:32:06,842 --> 00:32:09,428
hypersexualized druggies.

615
00:32:09,511 --> 00:32:11,221
But I really resist that.

616
00:32:11,304 --> 00:32:13,765
I'm, I'm really interested
in thinking about them

617
00:32:13,849 --> 00:32:15,267
as abused women.

618
00:32:15,809 --> 00:32:17,519
Mostly, they're runaways.

619
00:32:17,602 --> 00:32:19,521
Young women who found their way out,

620
00:32:19,604 --> 00:32:21,398
as so many young people did in that era,

621
00:32:21,481 --> 00:32:25,735
to California as a place
that seemed safer, freer.

622
00:32:26,736 --> 00:32:29,406
They moved down
to Southern California in '68,

623
00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:31,241
fairly well established
what we call the "Family."

624
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:34,202
[Ruby Pearl] They call it "The Family,"
they're brothers and sisters.

625
00:32:34,286 --> 00:32:35,579
They just lived anywhere
they felt like it.

626
00:32:36,121 --> 00:32:37,789
They were constantly taking dope

627
00:32:37,873 --> 00:32:40,333
and drinking wine and stealing cars.

628
00:32:59,186 --> 00:33:01,605
He's a good person. Very good person.

629
00:33:01,688 --> 00:33:03,064
Kinda had a peace.

630
00:33:03,565 --> 00:33:04,858
[newscaster] He named her "Squeaky"

631
00:33:04,941 --> 00:33:08,570
and she became one of the first members
of his so-called Family.

632
00:33:08,653 --> 00:33:09,654
[camera shutter clicks]

633
00:33:09,738 --> 00:33:11,448
[Jeff] There's an amazing documentary
that came out

634
00:33:11,531 --> 00:33:13,658
that had amazing footage from Spahn Ranch

635
00:33:13,742 --> 00:33:16,161
where, you know,
like, Lynette Fromme is, like, like,

636
00:33:16,244 --> 00:33:18,079
posed there with, like, a rifle, you know.

637
00:33:18,163 --> 00:33:21,041
And she really wants to vibe,

638
00:33:21,124 --> 00:33:25,462
like, scary, chaotic energy.

639
00:33:25,545 --> 00:33:27,797
[Sophia] Though not involved
in the Tate-LaBianca murders,

640
00:33:27,881 --> 00:33:29,799
she served over 30 years

641
00:33:29,883 --> 00:33:32,093
for attempting
to assassinate President Ford

642
00:33:32,177 --> 00:33:34,471
to protest environmental destruction.

643
00:33:34,554 --> 00:33:36,848
Can I ask if I can record this?

644
00:33:37,849 --> 00:33:39,601
-[Lynette Fromme] [on phone] Yes.
-Okay, thank you.

645
00:33:40,185 --> 00:33:43,313
I, I wanna start from the, the beginning.

646
00:33:44,272 --> 00:33:46,858
[Lynette]
With Charlie, we were a very...

647
00:33:47,567 --> 00:33:51,696
cohesive female energy.

648
00:33:51,780 --> 00:33:54,199
We were going day to day,

649
00:33:54,282 --> 00:33:59,037
and we were opening ourselves up

650
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,751
to that experience
of pretty much the universe.

651
00:34:04,834 --> 00:34:06,169
[chuckles softly]

652
00:34:06,878 --> 00:34:09,714
Most of us wanted to be with Charlie.

653
00:34:09,798 --> 00:34:12,842
I don't think there was
any doubt about that.

654
00:34:12,926 --> 00:34:17,138
He thought the more
people became part of it,

655
00:34:17,931 --> 00:34:19,641
the better it would be.

656
00:34:19,724 --> 00:34:21,268
[♪ soft music playing]

657
00:34:22,060 --> 00:34:23,395
[Sophia] I know other Manson girls

658
00:34:23,478 --> 00:34:26,189
have much darker memories
of my grandfather.

659
00:34:26,731 --> 00:34:29,943
I contacted Dianne Lake,
also known as "Snake,"

660
00:34:30,026 --> 00:34:32,445
who was 14 when she joined the Family.

661
00:34:34,114 --> 00:34:35,740
[Alexandra "Allie" Orton] [on phone]
Are you in a space where you feel okay

662
00:34:35,824 --> 00:34:36,908
about tomorrow?

663
00:34:38,702 --> 00:34:40,412
-Yeah.
-[Allie] Yeah?

664
00:34:40,495 --> 00:34:43,456
[voice breaking] Yeah, it's always
gonna be a little tough. Um...

665
00:34:44,749 --> 00:34:46,835
It's the first time meeting a victim.

666
00:34:47,419 --> 00:34:52,132
[Allie] I wish for you, you don't have
to wear this so heavy on your shoulders.

667
00:34:52,215 --> 00:34:56,636
Like, you take on so many people's
struggles to try to understand them.

668
00:34:58,096 --> 00:35:00,098
Well, listen, hang in there, okay?

669
00:35:00,181 --> 00:35:02,559
-[Sophia] Okay, thank you.
-[Allie] Alright, thank you.

670
00:35:02,642 --> 00:35:04,144
-[Sophia] Talk soon. Bye.
-[Allie] Bye.

671
00:35:05,854 --> 00:35:08,565
[Sophia] How did you meet my grandfather?

672
00:35:08,648 --> 00:35:12,527
I had a really big disconnect
with my parents.

673
00:35:12,611 --> 00:35:15,113
And then, I had this, um...

674
00:35:15,614 --> 00:35:20,327
this acid trip where I, I heard God
tell me it was time for me to leave home.

675
00:35:21,453 --> 00:35:23,455
I hitchhiked to LA

676
00:35:23,538 --> 00:35:28,376
and shortly after I got there,
I go to this party.

677
00:35:28,460 --> 00:35:30,879
Lynette comes out...

678
00:35:31,671 --> 00:35:34,883
"Dianne! Charlie!
Dianne is here!" You know?

679
00:35:34,966 --> 00:35:36,885
And gives me a big embrace.

680
00:35:36,968 --> 00:35:40,347
And Charlie gets up
from the, you know, the circle,

681
00:35:40,430 --> 00:35:43,016
offers me, you know,
a sip of his root beer

682
00:35:43,433 --> 00:35:46,603
and was totally enamored
with him, you know?

683
00:35:46,686 --> 00:35:49,105
I mean, here I was loved, embraced.

684
00:35:49,189 --> 00:35:51,024
Charlie took me to the bus that night

685
00:35:51,107 --> 00:35:54,027
and made love to me
like I had never experienced

686
00:35:54,110 --> 00:35:55,403
before in my life.

687
00:35:56,029 --> 00:35:58,823
I felt truly loved as a woman, you know,

688
00:35:58,907 --> 00:36:02,035
and not just a kid
being taken advantage of.

689
00:36:02,118 --> 00:36:04,704
So, um, I hopped on the bus.

690
00:36:04,788 --> 00:36:07,791
That's when we got
connected to Spahn Ranch.

691
00:36:08,875 --> 00:36:11,169
-Charlie would play the guitar...
- [Sophia] Mm-hmm.

692
00:36:11,252 --> 00:36:13,171
[Dianne "Snake" Lake]
...and we would, you know, sing along.

693
00:36:14,047 --> 00:36:17,634
Charlie had this way of combining music,

694
00:36:17,717 --> 00:36:20,845
things from the Bible,
things from Buddhism.

695
00:36:20,929 --> 00:36:24,307
He had this ability
to weave all that together,

696
00:36:24,391 --> 00:36:27,727
so that it sounded really,
ooh, special and--

697
00:36:27,811 --> 00:36:31,564
Like, he had a special inside gift.

698
00:36:32,732 --> 00:36:35,485
That was kind of his hold on us.

699
00:36:36,778 --> 00:36:38,988
I think he got a Messiah complex.

700
00:36:41,991 --> 00:36:44,327
[Jeff] Manson is generally,
and his Family, are generally understood

701
00:36:44,411 --> 00:36:46,746
as part of the counterculture,
but they're really like,

702
00:36:46,830 --> 00:36:50,500
they've taken a ladle and just kind of,
like, scooped the top, you know, surface.

703
00:36:50,583 --> 00:36:53,211
He gets the free love part, for sure.

704
00:36:53,878 --> 00:36:56,131
He gets the drug part, for sure.

705
00:36:56,214 --> 00:36:57,507
But, like, this was a commune

706
00:36:57,590 --> 00:37:00,093
that was organized
for the benefit of one man.

707
00:37:00,969 --> 00:37:03,680
He was a con man, you know.
He was a manipulator.

708
00:37:03,763 --> 00:37:06,516
He was approaching them not with empathy

709
00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:08,435
or with, you know, solidarity,

710
00:37:08,518 --> 00:37:11,980
but with this notion that he could
get from them what he wanted.

711
00:37:12,063 --> 00:37:16,109
So, they steal, they sell drugs,
they also creepy crawl.

712
00:37:16,192 --> 00:37:19,863
And that's the one crime that, um,
I think folks don't talk about enough.

713
00:37:20,613 --> 00:37:22,115
Manson and some of the girls,

714
00:37:22,198 --> 00:37:25,493
and whoever was around up at night

715
00:37:25,577 --> 00:37:29,539
would go out in a crew,
in a couple cars, and just pick a house

716
00:37:29,622 --> 00:37:32,000
where the people were sleeping.

717
00:37:32,542 --> 00:37:35,628
They would break into houses
in-- around the LA area,

718
00:37:35,712 --> 00:37:40,383
and they'd literally go in
and rearrange the furniture and leave.

719
00:37:40,467 --> 00:37:42,010
Like, they would change enough,

720
00:37:42,093 --> 00:37:44,012
so that the folks
would wake up and know,

721
00:37:44,095 --> 00:37:45,221
"We've been invaded."

722
00:37:45,764 --> 00:37:49,517
[Catherine "Gypsy" Share] When he
started taking the girls on creepy crawls,

723
00:37:49,601 --> 00:37:51,019
he was actually getting 'em used to,

724
00:37:51,102 --> 00:37:54,147
you know, burglaries
and calling it something cute.

725
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:56,733
[Jeff] As part of his
patriarchal control of the Family,

726
00:37:57,358 --> 00:37:59,819
Manson, uh, is a trip master.

727
00:37:59,903 --> 00:38:01,446
[♪ sinister music playing]

728
00:38:01,529 --> 00:38:04,449
I mean, it was very much tied up
with his sexual control of the family.

729
00:38:04,532 --> 00:38:06,576
Like, he would get people tripping wildly,

730
00:38:06,659 --> 00:38:10,163
and then arrange,
you know, various couplings.

731
00:38:10,246 --> 00:38:12,248
When I was with Charlie, we took...

732
00:38:12,332 --> 00:38:17,128
anywhere between 30 and 40 trips
on-on acid alone.

733
00:38:17,212 --> 00:38:19,506
That's not counting
all psilocybin and mescaline

734
00:38:19,589 --> 00:38:21,132
and little opium.

735
00:38:21,216 --> 00:38:24,177
[Barbara Hoyt] They went through
their acid trips together.

736
00:38:24,260 --> 00:38:27,222
They went through their
group sex things together.

737
00:38:27,305 --> 00:38:29,224
But it was always Charlie's will.

738
00:38:29,307 --> 00:38:32,185
Everyone was subservient
to Charlie's will no matter what.

739
00:38:32,268 --> 00:38:33,603
He was the father.

740
00:38:34,604 --> 00:38:37,816
[Jeff] Manson is trying
to, uh, advance his music career

741
00:38:37,899 --> 00:38:41,653
through the vehicle of his--
the women of his family

742
00:38:41,736 --> 00:38:44,364
by making them, you know, available,

743
00:38:44,447 --> 00:38:47,325
um, to a wide range of music industry men.

744
00:38:47,408 --> 00:38:49,244
Was he pimping you guys at the time?

745
00:38:49,327 --> 00:38:51,663
-Kind of. For favors.
-Hmm.

746
00:38:51,746 --> 00:38:53,832
You know, it wasn't
outright, like, for money,

747
00:38:53,915 --> 00:38:57,126
but it was definitely for favors.

748
00:38:58,169 --> 00:39:02,298
[Catherine] Charlie invited myself
and another, uh, young lady, Gale,

749
00:39:02,382 --> 00:39:05,009
to go swimming at Dennis Wilson's house.

750
00:39:05,093 --> 00:39:06,511
[Dianne] Come on! The Beach Boys?!

751
00:39:06,594 --> 00:39:08,137
They were, you know,
they were, like, on a par

752
00:39:08,221 --> 00:39:09,806
with The Beatles at that point.

753
00:39:09,889 --> 00:39:12,517
These are, like, central guys
in the music industry.

754
00:39:13,059 --> 00:39:15,728
Terry Melcher's a major producer.

755
00:39:15,812 --> 00:39:17,063
They were going out to Spahn Ranch

756
00:39:17,146 --> 00:39:20,275
and having sex with yo--
really young women

757
00:39:20,358 --> 00:39:23,403
because they knew that Charlie
would sort of, like, curate that for them.

758
00:39:23,486 --> 00:39:24,863
[Charles] I didn’t come to Terry Melcher.

759
00:39:24,946 --> 00:39:28,616
He come to me with money in his hand.
He offered me. I didn’t ask him.

760
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:30,451
[Jeff] He had kind of puffed himself up

761
00:39:30,535 --> 00:39:32,203
with this new idea about himself.

762
00:39:32,287 --> 00:39:33,454
He was Daddy of this family.

763
00:39:33,538 --> 00:39:35,206
He was gonna be a famous rock star,

764
00:39:35,290 --> 00:39:37,041
and there were plenty of people around him

765
00:39:37,125 --> 00:39:38,877
who thought he was really talented.

766
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:40,920
Neil Young is one of the few people

767
00:39:41,004 --> 00:39:44,257
who's been willing to go on record
saying that Manson had a lot of talent.

768
00:39:44,340 --> 00:39:47,552
And so, when he went
for his official music audition

769
00:39:47,635 --> 00:39:49,846
with Terry Melcher in a studio,

770
00:39:49,929 --> 00:39:52,932
Manson thinks he's gonna
get a, a record contract.

771
00:39:53,016 --> 00:39:54,517
And then he doesn't.

772
00:39:54,601 --> 00:39:57,228
And I think that really
sends Manson around the bend.

773
00:39:57,896 --> 00:40:01,399
When I went into
Dennis Wilson's, uh, Beach Boys,

774
00:40:01,482 --> 00:40:03,985
I said, "You owe me money for music.
Where's the money?"

775
00:40:04,068 --> 00:40:07,030
They put me
onto the Italian business manager.

776
00:40:07,488 --> 00:40:10,533
He-- I said, "Don't I get something
for this music here?"

777
00:40:10,617 --> 00:40:13,286
And he said, "No, you get nothing."

778
00:40:13,369 --> 00:40:14,787
He said, "Sue me."

779
00:40:14,871 --> 00:40:17,040
I said, "I won't sue you.
I'll bomb your car, man.

780
00:40:17,123 --> 00:40:18,458
I'll blow your house up."

781
00:40:18,541 --> 00:40:20,668
♪♪

782
00:40:22,670 --> 00:40:24,339
[Sophia] I'm speaking to Ed Roach.

783
00:40:24,797 --> 00:40:25,924
We were texting this morning.

784
00:40:26,007 --> 00:40:27,800
He was the Beach Boys photographer.

785
00:40:27,884 --> 00:40:29,844
-[camera shutter clicks]
-Really good friends with Dennis Wilson.

786
00:40:29,928 --> 00:40:31,220
[camera shutter clicks]

787
00:40:31,304 --> 00:40:34,140
My dad and I, we loved The Beach Boys.

788
00:40:35,099 --> 00:40:36,643
So, this is kind of crazy.

789
00:40:37,226 --> 00:40:38,978
[turn signal clicking]

790
00:40:39,062 --> 00:40:40,647
Kind of excited.

791
00:40:42,273 --> 00:40:43,733
-This is you? Wow.
-[Ed Roach] Yeah, that's me.

792
00:40:43,816 --> 00:40:48,446
That's, uh, 1971 or '73 maybe, uh,

793
00:40:48,529 --> 00:40:50,323
shooting The Beach Boys with Dennis.

794
00:40:50,406 --> 00:40:51,783
These photos that you're picking up,

795
00:40:51,866 --> 00:40:54,160
this was, uh, the very first time,

796
00:40:54,243 --> 00:40:57,205
the only time that I ever
went up to Spahn Ranch, uh.

797
00:40:57,288 --> 00:41:01,376
God bless the timing of things
because my wife and I

798
00:41:01,459 --> 00:41:05,046
were so fucking sexual,
were so crazed, uh,

799
00:41:05,129 --> 00:41:08,967
that we very easily could've been
sucked up into the Family.

800
00:41:09,050 --> 00:41:11,260
We were-- weren't even looking at the fact

801
00:41:11,344 --> 00:41:13,346
we're flying into murder zone central,

802
00:41:13,429 --> 00:41:16,557
and it happens to be
with one of the people that's...

803
00:41:16,641 --> 00:41:18,768
-[Sophia] Yeah.
-...intimately involved in it.

804
00:41:18,851 --> 00:41:21,062
And then, uh,
the next night, I met Charlie.

805
00:41:21,896 --> 00:41:24,649
Dennis and my ex-wife
were sitting at the piano

806
00:41:25,191 --> 00:41:26,776
where they were great together.

807
00:41:26,859 --> 00:41:28,945
Two minutes later, the door flung open

808
00:41:29,028 --> 00:41:31,698
and Charlie went,
"I just come from the moon!"

809
00:41:31,781 --> 00:41:34,534
And I'm watching Charlie
looking at my wife like,

810
00:41:34,617 --> 00:41:36,494
"I wanna fuck you," you know?

811
00:41:36,577 --> 00:41:39,414
And I'm looking at Charlie like,
"I am gonna fuck you up."

812
00:41:39,497 --> 00:41:42,417
And Dennis is instigating
this whole thing with the piano.

813
00:41:42,875 --> 00:41:45,003
And Charlie and I started
to lunge at each other

814
00:41:45,086 --> 00:41:46,462
and Dennis just jumped up,

815
00:41:46,546 --> 00:41:48,423
and he said, "This isn't happening here."

816
00:41:48,506 --> 00:41:50,008
And he took Charlie out the door.

817
00:41:50,091 --> 00:41:51,426
[Sophia] So, Dennis took Charles--

818
00:41:51,509 --> 00:41:53,261
-God, you got pretty eyes.
-Thank you.

819
00:41:53,344 --> 00:41:55,680
So, Dennis took Charles
outside of the house

820
00:41:55,763 --> 00:41:57,140
and what happened?

821
00:41:57,223 --> 00:42:00,476
[Ed] Dennis thought that he could
give him $300 for a song

822
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,603
and Charlie was just
gonna go away, you know?

823
00:42:02,687 --> 00:42:05,231
It was not the most auspicious way
to meet a guy

824
00:42:05,314 --> 00:42:07,275
that probably could've
offered me enough women

825
00:42:07,358 --> 00:42:10,862
that I would've given up
my wife and, uh... [chuckles]

826
00:42:10,945 --> 00:42:13,531
You know, God only knows.

827
00:42:13,614 --> 00:42:15,366
[Sophia] How come all
of these musicians were so okay

828
00:42:15,450 --> 00:42:17,076
with someone so scary?

829
00:42:18,202 --> 00:42:21,748
You know, kinda the women
made things easier

830
00:42:21,831 --> 00:42:24,375
to accept how extra scary he was.

831
00:42:24,459 --> 00:42:26,335
I mean, I looked at the women back then,

832
00:42:26,419 --> 00:42:28,379
and I thought, "God, Dennis,
what's wrong with you?

833
00:42:28,463 --> 00:42:30,298
I would never fuck women that early."

834
00:42:30,381 --> 00:42:33,217
But I look at them now and I think,
"God, would I love to fuck you."

835
00:42:33,301 --> 00:42:35,595
I'm only kidding. I'm only kidding, bo.

836
00:42:36,220 --> 00:42:37,764
Boy, I wish we had a fan.

837
00:42:40,433 --> 00:42:42,852
Okay, alright. No, fuck it, fuck it.
We can survive, right?

838
00:42:42,935 --> 00:42:44,145
Yeah, we can, we can do it.

839
00:42:44,228 --> 00:42:45,605
[Ed] This won't be
the last time we sweat together.

840
00:42:45,688 --> 00:42:48,191
-Yeah, let's--
-[Ed] Hey, really? [cackles]

841
00:42:48,274 --> 00:42:49,484
We can do this.

842
00:42:49,567 --> 00:42:51,986
[Ed] I think I just got a commitment,
gentlemen. Get that on camera.

843
00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:57,241
-[Ed] Boy, you...
-[steady electronic whine]

844
00:42:57,325 --> 00:42:59,118
-Well, thank you for...
-[Ed] You're welcome.

845
00:42:59,202 --> 00:43:00,203
...telling me all these stories.

846
00:43:00,286 --> 00:43:02,205
-I have a lot, a lot to think about.
-[Ed] You're welcome. You know, I mean--

847
00:43:02,288 --> 00:43:03,873
-[Sophia] Yeah.
-I like doing it.

848
00:43:03,956 --> 00:43:05,583
-[Sophia] Yeah, thank you so much.
-You're welcome, honey.

849
00:43:05,666 --> 00:43:08,086
[Sophia] I really appreciate it.
Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it.

850
00:43:10,505 --> 00:43:11,756
[exhales] Cool.

851
00:43:11,839 --> 00:43:12,924
[Ed] Cool!

852
00:43:13,508 --> 00:43:15,009
Who's buying me a beer?

853
00:43:21,724 --> 00:43:23,434
He was, like, one of
the most disgusting people

854
00:43:23,518 --> 00:43:25,228
I've ever spoken to in my life.

855
00:43:28,231 --> 00:43:31,692
So naive that I could try
and make this positive spin

856
00:43:31,776 --> 00:43:34,487
out of my grandfather being friends
with The Beach Boys

857
00:43:34,570 --> 00:43:36,948
and being an artist.

858
00:43:37,031 --> 00:43:38,449
[sniffles]

859
00:43:39,534 --> 00:43:42,745
But they're all fucking pigs.
They're all disgusting.

860
00:43:44,539 --> 00:43:45,998
[water running]

861
00:43:46,082 --> 00:43:48,042
♪♪

862
00:43:57,093 --> 00:43:58,678
[line ringing]

863
00:44:03,432 --> 00:44:05,685
[ringing continues]

864
00:44:06,060 --> 00:44:08,521
Every time I ask my dad to be present

865
00:44:08,604 --> 00:44:11,232
at an interview or filming, he...

866
00:44:11,941 --> 00:44:13,734
completely...

867
00:44:16,112 --> 00:44:17,864
psychs me out.

868
00:44:17,947 --> 00:44:20,116
[line ringing]

869
00:44:20,199 --> 00:44:21,617
[Daniel] [on voicemail]
Hi, sorry, I missed your call.

870
00:44:21,701 --> 00:44:23,369
This is Dan. Please leave a name--

871
00:44:24,245 --> 00:44:27,248
[Sophia] He says he doesn't
wanna be there, doesn't wanna do it,

872
00:44:27,331 --> 00:44:30,126
doesn't wanna hear about anything,
doesn't wanna learn.

873
00:44:30,835 --> 00:44:34,797
I literally grew up with my dad
telling me he wishes

874
00:44:34,881 --> 00:44:37,049
he knew who his father was.

875
00:44:37,133 --> 00:44:40,219
So, all I'm trying to do
is figure out who his father is,

876
00:44:40,303 --> 00:44:41,679
so that he can know.

877
00:44:42,138 --> 00:44:44,307
And he gives me shit
and he hangs up on me,

878
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:46,184
and he doesn't wanna be on set.

879
00:44:48,477 --> 00:44:50,771
[♪ somber music playing]

880
00:44:58,696 --> 00:45:02,450
But if I want to understand
what aspects of my grandfather

881
00:45:02,533 --> 00:45:04,785
my dad and I may have inherited...

882
00:45:06,621 --> 00:45:11,918
I need to know what exactly led
to the family's 1969 murder spree.

883
00:45:14,879 --> 00:45:20,551
I was up until 2:00 in the morning
just reading transcripts and...

884
00:45:21,677 --> 00:45:23,804
doing a crash course,
reviewing everything I've read.

885
00:45:25,097 --> 00:45:26,974
And the deeper you get into it,

886
00:45:27,058 --> 00:45:29,227
the more confusing it becomes.

887
00:45:29,977 --> 00:45:32,271
♪♪

888
00:45:34,857 --> 00:45:36,442
[sniffles]

889
00:45:47,328 --> 00:45:48,955
[Sophia exhales deeply]

890
00:45:50,248 --> 00:45:51,958
I'm not my grandfather.

891
00:45:52,458 --> 00:45:54,126
I'm not my dad. [sniffles]

892
00:45:54,210 --> 00:45:55,836
And I won't self-sabotage.

893
00:46:01,133 --> 00:46:02,260
Yeah.

894
00:46:03,135 --> 00:46:05,554
Do you think anyone
was telling Charlie that, though?

895
00:46:11,894 --> 00:46:13,813
-Okay, take one. AV mark.
-[clapboard claps]

896
00:46:15,690 --> 00:46:16,691
-[Sophia] Hi.
-[chuckles]

897
00:46:16,774 --> 00:46:17,817
Finally, Sophia.

898
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:19,485
-Hi, Sophia. I'm Steve.
-[Sophia] Nice to meet you.

899
00:46:19,568 --> 00:46:20,945
I can properly shake your hand now.

900
00:46:21,028 --> 00:46:22,029
[both laugh]

901
00:46:22,113 --> 00:46:24,740
Um, I just wanted to clarify

902
00:46:24,824 --> 00:46:27,952
'cause you asked me in the other room
how I got into this project.

903
00:46:28,494 --> 00:46:31,831
I found out my grandfather
is Charles Manson three years ago.

904
00:46:31,914 --> 00:46:32,915
Oh.

905
00:46:32,999 --> 00:46:34,542
[Sophia] I think--
We spoke over the phone.

906
00:46:34,625 --> 00:46:37,086
I've-I've mentioned that to you.
I just wanted to remind you.

907
00:46:37,169 --> 00:46:38,879
-And I have to tell you...
-[Sophia] Mm-hmm.

908
00:46:38,963 --> 00:46:41,257
...that the reason
I didn't return your phone calls

909
00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:44,844
when you identified who you were
'cause I thought, "Oh, my gosh.

910
00:46:44,927 --> 00:46:48,014
This person's gonna be
an apologist for Charles Manson."

911
00:46:48,097 --> 00:46:50,391
It's a, it's a slippery subject.

912
00:46:50,474 --> 00:46:54,812
If I try and gain an understanding
of these people,

913
00:46:54,895 --> 00:46:58,441
it's really easy for people to accuse me
of being an apologist for him.

914
00:46:59,150 --> 00:47:00,568
All I wanna do is learn.

915
00:47:00,651 --> 00:47:02,820
Well, let me say that I know these people

916
00:47:02,903 --> 00:47:04,405
probably better than anyone.

917
00:47:04,864 --> 00:47:08,075
I've proceeded
four Tate-LaBianca murder cases.

918
00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:09,702
Hinman and Shea case.

919
00:47:09,785 --> 00:47:13,539
Sixty parole hearings for the five
Tate-LaBianca murder defendants.

920
00:47:13,622 --> 00:47:16,500
I've been threatened with death
by Manson three times.

921
00:47:16,584 --> 00:47:18,419
I've been threatened
by "Squeaky" and "Sandy,"

922
00:47:18,502 --> 00:47:19,503
so I know these people.

923
00:47:19,587 --> 00:47:21,756
I know what makes 'em, uh, tick.

924
00:47:22,423 --> 00:47:25,343
You know, what-what turned
this small-time con man

925
00:47:25,426 --> 00:47:28,554
into a, a murderer, uh,

926
00:47:28,637 --> 00:47:30,765
I have my theories on-on that.

927
00:47:31,307 --> 00:47:33,601
Manson, when he was in prison,

928
00:47:33,684 --> 00:47:36,562
he thought that the Blacks
were more together than the whites.

929
00:47:36,645 --> 00:47:39,148
He thought that they were gonna take over.

930
00:47:39,231 --> 00:47:44,070
In June of 1969, he said to his followers,

931
00:47:44,153 --> 00:47:46,864
"We're gonna have to show
Blackie how to do it."

932
00:47:46,947 --> 00:47:50,284
Manson had just become obsessed

933
00:47:50,368 --> 00:47:53,120
with the idea of a race war.

934
00:47:53,621 --> 00:47:56,665
He had machine gun
mounted on a dune buggy.

935
00:47:56,749 --> 00:48:00,336
He had a gun room at the ranch.
Had a bazooka.

936
00:48:00,795 --> 00:48:03,130
Manson was preparing for war.

937
00:48:03,214 --> 00:48:05,966
♪♪

938
00:48:09,845 --> 00:48:11,472
[Sophia] I know a lot
of things are going wrong

939
00:48:11,555 --> 00:48:13,474
for my grandfather that spring.

940
00:48:13,557 --> 00:48:16,519
His music career went bust.
He's desperate for money.

941
00:48:16,977 --> 00:48:20,398
But what would make him
want to start an all-out race war?

942
00:48:20,481 --> 00:48:22,525
[Jeff] One of the ways
I'd really like to challenge Bugliosi

943
00:48:22,608 --> 00:48:23,859
is he has this notion that, like,

944
00:48:23,943 --> 00:48:26,487
Manson from jump street,
like, had this whole plan

945
00:48:26,570 --> 00:48:29,281
about, you know, starting a race war
that he called Helter Skelter.

946
00:48:29,365 --> 00:48:30,449
I don't think that's true.

947
00:48:30,533 --> 00:48:34,161
I think, ultimately, what changes is
Charlie's mental health.

948
00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:37,081
[Sophia] So, when did
it start going downhill?

949
00:48:37,164 --> 00:48:39,208
[Dianne]
Well, he-he was getting really frantic

950
00:48:39,291 --> 00:48:42,128
about getting this whole survival mode.

951
00:48:42,211 --> 00:48:45,297
We were trying to make money
to get to the desert,

952
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,425
to Barker Ranch.

953
00:48:47,508 --> 00:48:52,346
And they were stealing Volkswagen bugs
to turn into dune buggies.

954
00:48:52,430 --> 00:48:56,100
The Straight Satans,
they were a Simi Valley motorcycle gang.

955
00:48:56,183 --> 00:48:57,852
They started coming by,

956
00:48:57,935 --> 00:49:01,105
and I think Charlie
kind of encouraged that

957
00:49:01,188 --> 00:49:03,065
because they were offered protection,

958
00:49:03,149 --> 00:49:05,192
and knives came on the scene.

959
00:49:06,152 --> 00:49:07,361
Guns.

960
00:49:07,862 --> 00:49:10,448
And "Tex" came on the scene.

961
00:49:11,449 --> 00:49:14,118
He had been, like,
a drug dealer in Hollywood.

962
00:49:14,618 --> 00:49:18,164
He definitely brought
higher level speed or whatever.

963
00:49:18,873 --> 00:49:21,959
We, as a Family, we smoked
marijuana pretty regularly.

964
00:49:22,042 --> 00:49:23,794
We took LSD pretty regularly.

965
00:49:23,878 --> 00:49:27,590
But as far as other drugs,
as a Family, we did not do them.

966
00:49:28,215 --> 00:49:29,216
Tex did.

967
00:49:31,010 --> 00:49:33,888
[Sophia] Part of this doc is
me dealing with my dad,

968
00:49:33,971 --> 00:49:37,808
being the daughter of someone who might
have some mental health issues as well.

969
00:49:38,601 --> 00:49:42,938
My dad's health deteriorates
a lot when he gets stressed...

970
00:49:43,731 --> 00:49:45,941
and it's pretty fucking bad actually.

971
00:49:46,025 --> 00:49:47,735
I'm like a disowned daughter.

972
00:49:48,486 --> 00:49:50,905
When Tex Watson comes up
on the scene,

973
00:49:50,988 --> 00:49:53,824
things feel like they go downhill.

974
00:49:53,908 --> 00:49:57,786
And that's one of the things I don't feel
enough people talk about is Tex Watson

975
00:49:57,870 --> 00:50:00,498
who slaughtered
all of those people, most of them.

976
00:50:00,581 --> 00:50:03,667
For all the, all the talk we do about
Manson being able to control anybody,

977
00:50:03,751 --> 00:50:05,169
to hypnoti-- you know, brainwash,

978
00:50:05,252 --> 00:50:08,088
I don't think he had
Tex Watson under his control.

979
00:50:12,051 --> 00:50:13,469
[Sophia] Because I am Manson's blood,

980
00:50:13,552 --> 00:50:16,847
I was able to secure a meeting
with George Stimson,

981
00:50:16,931 --> 00:50:19,266
an insider who's connected key events

982
00:50:19,350 --> 00:50:23,145
between Tex and my grandfather
leading up to the murders.

983
00:50:23,229 --> 00:50:26,190
Is it okay if I ask you about
your relationship with "Blue" or no?

984
00:50:26,732 --> 00:50:30,569
She's my partner over 30 years.

985
00:50:30,653 --> 00:50:32,821
[interviewer] If you had your way today,

986
00:50:32,905 --> 00:50:34,406
where would Charles Manson be?

987
00:50:34,490 --> 00:50:36,492
He would be in the United Nations.

988
00:50:36,575 --> 00:50:40,371
I have absolute respect for him.
He doesn't lie.

989
00:50:40,454 --> 00:50:43,249
[George Stimson] Sandra Good,
"Blue" talked me into, uh, putting myself

990
00:50:43,332 --> 00:50:45,292
in his service, and that's what I did.

991
00:50:45,376 --> 00:50:47,711
Visited him almost 200 times in prison.

992
00:50:47,795 --> 00:50:49,004
Wrote a book about him.

993
00:50:49,088 --> 00:50:53,384
I've just been intertwined with him
since about 1990.

994
00:50:54,343 --> 00:50:58,055
What led up to
the Waverly and Cielo Drive murders?

995
00:50:58,138 --> 00:51:01,016
They were the culmination
of a series of criminal incidents

996
00:51:01,100 --> 00:51:03,686
that began on July 1st, 1969

997
00:51:04,311 --> 00:51:06,647
when Charles "Tex" Watson ripped off

998
00:51:06,730 --> 00:51:09,191
the marijuana dealer, Bernard Crowe.

999
00:51:09,275 --> 00:51:11,110
Uh, he took the money and ran.

1000
00:51:11,193 --> 00:51:12,278
Crowe wouldn't have anything of it.

1001
00:51:12,361 --> 00:51:15,114
He wanted his money then,
he wanted everybody involved in it.

1002
00:51:15,197 --> 00:51:17,074
He wasn't gonna be reasonable at all.

1003
00:51:17,157 --> 00:51:18,951
Tex has a little problem.
He has a little problem.

1004
00:51:19,034 --> 00:51:20,411
He gives me a gun. He can’t do it.

1005
00:51:20,494 --> 00:51:22,121
I have to go deal with his problem.

1006
00:51:22,204 --> 00:51:23,247
[Charlie Rose] Which is?

1007
00:51:23,330 --> 00:51:25,583
I have to go shoot somebody for him.

1008
00:51:25,666 --> 00:51:28,043
-[Charlie Rose] Who'd you shoot?
-Oh, I had to shoot "LotsaPoppa."

1009
00:51:28,127 --> 00:51:30,796
[George] Charlie thought he was dead,
and he told Tex Watson,

1010
00:51:30,879 --> 00:51:34,008
"I killed this guy for you.
You owe me a favor.

1011
00:51:34,091 --> 00:51:36,093
"And when it's time for me
to collect the favor,

1012
00:51:36,176 --> 00:51:37,177
you're gonna pay it."

1013
00:51:38,178 --> 00:51:40,931
[Sophia] That's where I feel
his mental health started deteriorating

1014
00:51:41,015 --> 00:51:44,059
is that level of stress of like,
"Fuck, I just shot a guy."

1015
00:51:44,143 --> 00:51:45,811
He thinks he killed him.

1016
00:51:45,894 --> 00:51:48,606
'Cause it led to a chain of events
that did destroy everything.

1017
00:51:49,231 --> 00:51:50,232
What happened?

1018
00:51:50,316 --> 00:51:53,277
[George] Bobby Beausoleil got involved
with the mescaline deal

1019
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,946
between Gary Hinman
and the Straight Satans.

1020
00:51:56,655 --> 00:51:58,490
Bobby killed Gary Hinman.

1021
00:51:58,574 --> 00:51:59,992
About a week after the murder,

1022
00:52:00,075 --> 00:52:03,203
Bobby Beausoleil got arrested
driving Gary Hinman's car.

1023
00:52:03,287 --> 00:52:06,290
I can't let somebody
that's with me stay in jail.

1024
00:52:06,373 --> 00:52:08,626
It, it just-- You know,
it's not in my makeup, man.

1025
00:52:08,709 --> 00:52:10,252
I got to get my brother out of jail.

1026
00:52:10,878 --> 00:52:12,963
[Sophia] Charlie Manson
goes up to Tex Watson

1027
00:52:13,047 --> 00:52:15,591
and says, "Get a brother out of jail."

1028
00:52:15,674 --> 00:52:18,469
Yes, it's a payback thing.
It's an underworld thing.

1029
00:52:18,552 --> 00:52:20,471
It's favors owed and favors paid.

1030
00:52:20,554 --> 00:52:25,017
"I want Bobby outta jail.
You owe me for shooting Crowe."

1031
00:52:25,100 --> 00:52:27,144
However you do it, you do it.

1032
00:52:27,227 --> 00:52:29,355
I don't care how ya do it,
but don't bring it to me.

1033
00:52:29,438 --> 00:52:34,735
[George] So, Tex Watson, he goes out
and, uh, commits some atrocious murders

1034
00:52:34,818 --> 00:52:39,406
in an attempt to make it look like
Bobby Beausoleil wasn't the killer.

1035
00:52:39,490 --> 00:52:42,576
The real killer of Gary Hinman
was still at large.

1036
00:52:43,118 --> 00:52:46,997
The followers wanna change the script
of, of what really happened.

1037
00:52:47,081 --> 00:52:48,374
♪♪

1038
00:52:48,457 --> 00:52:50,793
Manson could've cared less
about Bobby Beausoleil.

1039
00:52:50,876 --> 00:52:54,838
He was a on-again, off-again
member, uh, of the family.

1040
00:52:54,922 --> 00:52:58,759
There's been some speculation
that Hinman was a drug dealer.

1041
00:52:58,842 --> 00:52:59,843
He was not.

1042
00:52:59,927 --> 00:53:02,054
Manson got Watson aside

1043
00:53:02,137 --> 00:53:05,099
and told Watson, "Kill everyone there."

1044
00:53:05,182 --> 00:53:08,143
And he told the girls,
"Well, Watson knows the layout,

1045
00:53:08,227 --> 00:53:10,729
so do whatever Tex tells you."

1046
00:53:11,522 --> 00:53:13,524
[Sophia]
Tex described the scene himself.

1047
00:53:13,607 --> 00:53:16,819
"We took lots of speed,
especially me and Sadie.

1048
00:53:16,902 --> 00:53:18,070
"She was a speed freak,

1049
00:53:18,153 --> 00:53:20,280
"and we were flying high
the night of the Tate murders.

1050
00:53:20,739 --> 00:53:23,283
"It was a private stash,
and Charlie didn't know about it.

1051
00:53:23,367 --> 00:53:24,535
He wouldn't have liked it."

1052
00:53:25,285 --> 00:53:27,705
[Stephen Kay] They drove up
to the, the front gate.

1053
00:53:27,788 --> 00:53:31,375
Watson got out
and cut the, the phone wires

1054
00:53:31,458 --> 00:53:33,502
'cause he didn't want anybody calling out.

1055
00:53:33,585 --> 00:53:35,629
[Sophia] Tex Watson, Susan Atkins,

1056
00:53:35,713 --> 00:53:37,881
Patricia Krenwinkel, and Linda Kasabian.

1057
00:53:37,965 --> 00:53:40,342
They go into the Tate residence...

1058
00:53:40,426 --> 00:53:42,010
and commit a massacre.

1059
00:53:42,094 --> 00:53:43,137
[camera shutter clicks]

1060
00:53:43,220 --> 00:53:45,597
Tex Watson shot Steven Parent.

1061
00:53:47,015 --> 00:53:50,018
[Stephen] Wojciech Frykowski
was asleep on the sofa.

1062
00:53:50,436 --> 00:53:52,271
Watson woke him up at gunpoint

1063
00:53:52,354 --> 00:53:55,733
and told him that he was the devil there
to do the devil's work.

1064
00:53:56,817 --> 00:53:59,570
[Sophia] "He tied up
Folger, Sebring, and Sharon

1065
00:53:59,653 --> 00:54:01,238
before stabbing them to death."

1066
00:54:01,321 --> 00:54:02,322
[camera shutter clicks]

1067
00:54:02,406 --> 00:54:04,450
"Question: 'How do you feel
about what you did?'

1068
00:54:04,533 --> 00:54:08,328
"Answer: 'It was fun tearing up
the Tate house, okay?'

1069
00:54:08,704 --> 00:54:10,664
"Question: 'It was fun?'

1070
00:54:10,998 --> 00:54:13,500
"Answer: 'You should have seen it.

1071
00:54:13,584 --> 00:54:16,086
"People were running around like chickens
with their heads cut off.'

1072
00:54:16,837 --> 00:54:18,213
Defendant is laughing."

1073
00:54:19,506 --> 00:54:22,176
[Stephen] Sharon Tate,
eight and a half months pregnant.

1074
00:54:22,259 --> 00:54:24,261
Susan Atkins looked at her and said,

1075
00:54:25,179 --> 00:54:27,806
"Look, bitch, I don't care
about you or your baby.

1076
00:54:27,890 --> 00:54:30,559
"You're gonna die,
and you better be ready for it.

1077
00:54:30,642 --> 00:54:32,269
And I don't feel a thing about it."

1078
00:54:32,352 --> 00:54:37,691
And then, Susan Atkins
proceeded, uh, to stab her 16 times.

1079
00:54:37,775 --> 00:54:41,487
And then, Watson came in and he hung her

1080
00:54:41,570 --> 00:54:46,325
from a high beam, uh,
going over the, the living room.

1081
00:54:47,075 --> 00:54:50,162
The coroner said that she was hung
while she was still alive.

1082
00:54:50,245 --> 00:54:53,207
[Sophia] He's just telling
these whacked-out people

1083
00:54:53,290 --> 00:54:56,710
on amphetamines, speed, belladonna, acid,

1084
00:54:56,794 --> 00:54:57,920
"Take care of something."

1085
00:54:58,003 --> 00:55:01,006
-What did he expect?
-He doesn't live in expectation.

1086
00:55:01,548 --> 00:55:03,050
He stirred the pot.

1087
00:55:05,219 --> 00:55:06,845
He told 'em to do something.

1088
00:55:07,763 --> 00:55:09,640
He didn't anticipate like that.

1089
00:55:09,723 --> 00:55:11,850
♪♪

1090
00:55:14,102 --> 00:55:17,523
[Sophia] The next night of murders,
Charlie gets more involved.

1091
00:55:18,649 --> 00:55:22,277
It's been hard to get my dad to hear
about his own father's culpability.

1092
00:55:22,361 --> 00:55:24,863
-[Daniel] Jessica. Nice to see you.
-[speaker] Your dad's here.

1093
00:55:25,489 --> 00:55:27,491
[Sophia] Yeah, obviously. [chuckles]

1094
00:55:27,574 --> 00:55:29,034
[Daniel speaking indistinctly]

1095
00:55:29,952 --> 00:55:31,703
But he agreed to come meet
Nikolas Schreck,

1096
00:55:32,287 --> 00:55:35,624
a friend of Charlie's
who spent decades defending him.

1097
00:55:35,707 --> 00:55:38,335
Charlie told Nik about the night's murder.

1098
00:55:38,418 --> 00:55:40,671
I wouldn't be doing this
if you didn't tuck me in every night

1099
00:55:40,754 --> 00:55:42,714
and tell me you wanted
to know who your father was.

1100
00:55:42,798 --> 00:55:45,133
Hi, I'm Nikolas. Nice to meet you.

1101
00:55:48,136 --> 00:55:49,137
He's a researcher.

1102
00:55:49,221 --> 00:55:53,058
He spent 30 years talking to Grandpa.
He was a good friend of your dad's, so...

1103
00:55:56,144 --> 00:55:59,773
And then, we're gonna talk
about what he was culpable of,

1104
00:56:00,524 --> 00:56:03,068
what he is guilty of 'cause I think...

1105
00:56:04,069 --> 00:56:05,821
that's something we should know.

1106
00:56:16,123 --> 00:56:17,541
Who do you think is?

1107
00:56:19,334 --> 00:56:20,752
[Sophia chuckles]

1108
00:56:22,963 --> 00:56:23,964
[Sophia] Rolling?

1109
00:56:24,047 --> 00:56:25,299
[crew member] Yep.

1110
00:56:25,382 --> 00:56:27,426
♪♪

1111
00:56:28,343 --> 00:56:30,178
I know you don't wanna be here
when I talk about it,

1112
00:56:30,262 --> 00:56:33,098
but I think we have to talk about
what he is guilty of

1113
00:56:33,181 --> 00:56:35,976
and what he has done.

1114
00:56:36,059 --> 00:56:38,520
Because I don't wanna whitewash things,
and I, I wanna--

1115
00:56:38,604 --> 00:56:40,856
Well, when, when you say,
"What is Charlie guilty of

1116
00:56:40,939 --> 00:56:45,569
as far as his criminality?"
Larceny, auto theft.

1117
00:56:45,652 --> 00:56:48,530
He robbed constantly,
he-- breaking and entering.

1118
00:56:48,614 --> 00:56:50,157
That came naturally to him.

1119
00:56:50,616 --> 00:56:52,492
He was always looking for money.

1120
00:56:54,077 --> 00:56:57,289
In terms of the more famous phase
of his career,

1121
00:56:57,372 --> 00:56:59,666
his involvement with Cielo Drive,

1122
00:56:59,750 --> 00:57:02,961
I don't believe that Manson
was culpable for murder.

1123
00:57:03,045 --> 00:57:06,089
It was Tex Watson
and Linda Kasabian's idea.

1124
00:57:06,173 --> 00:57:10,260
Did Manson deny telling Watson
to go kill people or did he not?

1125
00:57:10,344 --> 00:57:13,138
[Nikolas Schreck] Oh, yes, he denied it,
but that doesn't mean that's the truth.

1126
00:57:13,221 --> 00:57:14,932
They came back to the ranch,

1127
00:57:15,015 --> 00:57:17,017
and the way Charlie described it to me,

1128
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:19,478
he saw them coming back with blood.

1129
00:57:19,561 --> 00:57:22,147
Susan Atkins comes home to you
with bloody hands.

1130
00:57:22,230 --> 00:57:23,231
Yeah.

1131
00:57:23,315 --> 00:57:24,942
She says,
"Charlie, look what I did for you."

1132
00:57:25,025 --> 00:57:27,527
-Yeah. Said, "I give you the world."
-I give you the--

1133
00:57:27,611 --> 00:57:29,738
"I just killed myself,
and I give you the world."

1134
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:31,490
So, how'd you react?

1135
00:57:31,573 --> 00:57:33,408
I said, "You dumb fuckin' cunt,
I already had the world.

1136
00:57:33,492 --> 00:57:35,202
You just put me back in jail again."

1137
00:57:35,285 --> 00:57:39,790
[Nikolas] So, it was a disaster
that they had killed a minor celebrity.

1138
00:57:39,873 --> 00:57:43,543
And he's terrified
because he's on probation thinking,

1139
00:57:43,627 --> 00:57:46,546
"These amateurs
are dragging me back in prison."

1140
00:57:46,630 --> 00:57:48,590
'Cause he knew it would fall back on him.

1141
00:57:49,383 --> 00:57:52,219
And he told me he'd never been
as frightened in his life

1142
00:57:52,302 --> 00:57:54,388
despite all of the things
he'd been through.

1143
00:57:54,888 --> 00:57:56,974
Now, the next night, the LaBiancas,

1144
00:57:57,057 --> 00:57:59,393
he went into the LaBianca home

1145
00:57:59,476 --> 00:58:02,437
and took money from Leno LaBianca,
a large amount of money.

1146
00:58:02,521 --> 00:58:03,563
He admitted that.

1147
00:58:04,898 --> 00:58:06,692
[newscaster 1] A day later, 15 miles away,

1148
00:58:06,775 --> 00:58:09,236
there was another murder
in the same brutal manner.

1149
00:58:09,987 --> 00:58:12,155
[newscaster 2] Leno LaBianca,
a supermarket owner,

1150
00:58:12,239 --> 00:58:15,033
and his wife had both
been stabbed to death,

1151
00:58:15,117 --> 00:58:16,618
repeated stab wounds.

1152
00:58:16,702 --> 00:58:20,664
On his body, the word "war"
had been carved in the chest.

1153
00:58:20,747 --> 00:58:23,125
Then, with blood, the killer had scrawled

1154
00:58:23,208 --> 00:58:25,419
the words, "Death to Pigs."

1155
00:58:25,919 --> 00:58:27,295
[Nikolas] Um,

1156
00:58:27,379 --> 00:58:30,841
he was guilty of going
into the LaBiancas' home

1157
00:58:30,924 --> 00:58:32,551
and robbing them,

1158
00:58:32,634 --> 00:58:35,387
which makes you culpable, technically.

1159
00:58:36,138 --> 00:58:37,472
He didn't kill them.

1160
00:58:37,556 --> 00:58:39,391
Do you believe that happened?
That he went to the crime scene?

1161
00:58:39,474 --> 00:58:41,351
I don't believe a word of anything.

1162
00:58:41,435 --> 00:58:44,021
If you're gonna take the implication

1163
00:58:44,104 --> 00:58:47,524
that Charlie was involved, yeah, okay.

1164
00:58:47,607 --> 00:58:51,570
But every person that was
in Charlie's cult in the beginning,

1165
00:58:51,653 --> 00:58:53,655
-the-the-- like, first--
-It wasn't a cult, number one.

1166
00:58:53,739 --> 00:58:58,285
Every person was arrested a minimum
of four times before they met Charlie.

1167
00:58:58,368 --> 00:58:59,453
Right, they were a bunch of criminals.

1168
00:58:59,536 --> 00:59:01,329
And all four of 'em were released.

1169
00:59:01,413 --> 00:59:04,332
I'm telling you, this is a squalid series

1170
00:59:04,416 --> 00:59:07,836
of gang murders
involving bikers and drug dealers.

1171
00:59:07,919 --> 00:59:10,672
With all due respect,
I think people who do this

1172
00:59:10,756 --> 00:59:14,051
are entertainment Manson people.

1173
00:59:14,134 --> 00:59:16,511
They don't really know the p-- the whole--

1174
00:59:16,595 --> 00:59:19,389
Then, you doubt, you doubt
everything that your father said?

1175
00:59:20,182 --> 00:59:21,183
Yes.

1176
00:59:21,266 --> 00:59:22,517
Well, here's where we have to part ways.

1177
00:59:22,601 --> 00:59:24,936
If you doubt
that your father ever told the truth

1178
00:59:25,020 --> 00:59:27,522
about these things, well, he did.

1179
00:59:27,606 --> 00:59:30,734
And I spoke to him for years,
quizzing him, interrogating him.

1180
00:59:30,817 --> 00:59:36,198
I-- In my opinion, I-I think that,
uh, still needs to be, um...

1181
00:59:36,281 --> 00:59:38,450
things need to be released,
more information.

1182
00:59:38,533 --> 00:59:40,368
And, uh, you know--

1183
00:59:40,452 --> 00:59:42,662
I'm not doubting
that things are covered up.

1184
00:59:42,746 --> 00:59:44,956
No, the fact, the fact
that they had to go all the way up

1185
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:47,959
to the President of the United States
and have him say,

1186
00:59:48,043 --> 00:59:49,503
"Manson's guilty of murder"...

1187
00:59:57,928 --> 01:00:00,222
...tells you that it was an operation.

1188
01:00:00,305 --> 01:00:01,348
[Nikolas] I understand that.

1189
01:00:01,431 --> 01:00:04,643
I just don't think that that's relevant
to these particular crimes.

1190
01:00:04,726 --> 01:00:05,727
-That's all.
-[Daniel] Well, I do.

1191
01:00:05,811 --> 01:00:08,438
The whole thing is just
a shitshow, and it's a lie.

1192
01:00:08,522 --> 01:00:09,689
The whole thing's a lie.

1193
01:00:09,773 --> 01:00:12,776
You're caught up in the biggest lie
in the history of lies.

1194
01:00:12,859 --> 01:00:14,986
-Okay, thank you very much.
-Fine. Thank you.

1195
01:00:20,117 --> 01:00:21,118
[door opens]

1196
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:25,831
Isn't that what you expected?

1197
01:00:26,623 --> 01:00:29,126
[♪ mellow music playing]

1198
01:00:30,752 --> 01:00:32,879
[Sophia] I was hoping my dad could...

1199
01:00:34,047 --> 01:00:35,674
listen to Nik.

1200
01:00:36,466 --> 01:00:38,760
Maybe he thinks he's inherited some evil

1201
01:00:38,844 --> 01:00:41,096
and he doesn't wanna believe
his dad is like that.

1202
01:00:43,014 --> 01:00:44,641
The more I learn, the more I,

1203
01:00:44,724 --> 01:00:47,269
the more I realize
I, I don't really have family.

1204
01:00:47,894 --> 01:00:50,105
I couldn't depend on my dad today.

1205
01:00:50,647 --> 01:00:52,816
I'm very fucking alone.

1206
01:00:53,191 --> 01:00:55,527
[♪ somber music playing]

1207
01:00:59,531 --> 01:01:01,700
It's hard, but I can't turn back now.

1208
01:01:02,367 --> 01:01:03,451
I faced the murders,

1209
01:01:04,369 --> 01:01:07,372
but it's the trial that cements
my grandfather's legacy.

1210
01:01:07,455 --> 01:01:08,623
[newscaster] All the elements are present

1211
01:01:08,707 --> 01:01:12,169
for one of the most sensational
murder trials in American history.

1212
01:01:12,252 --> 01:01:15,672
[Sophia] And convinces my grandmother
her 10-year-old son is evil.

1213
01:01:15,755 --> 01:01:18,800
[newscaster] Young girls, supposedly
under the spell of a bearded Svengali,

1214
01:01:18,884 --> 01:01:21,386
who allegedly masterminded
the seven murders.

1215
01:01:21,469 --> 01:01:23,388
The Manson trial is a circus.

1216
01:01:23,471 --> 01:01:25,390
You know, it's wild.

1217
01:01:25,473 --> 01:01:28,935
[newscaster] Lawyers who had never been
heard of before are now heard of.

1218
01:01:29,019 --> 01:01:31,396
[Vincent] Manson was seeking
to ignite Helter Skelter,

1219
01:01:31,479 --> 01:01:33,148
start the Black/white war

1220
01:01:33,231 --> 01:01:35,400
by making it look like
Black people had murdered

1221
01:01:35,483 --> 01:01:37,068
seven Caucasian victims.

1222
01:01:37,152 --> 01:01:40,906
[Jeff] LA had had
a incredibly devastating race riot,

1223
01:01:40,989 --> 01:01:42,574
and so, then to have a prosecutor come up

1224
01:01:42,657 --> 01:01:44,743
and say, like,
"This weird little hippie guy

1225
01:01:44,826 --> 01:01:47,495
is trying to start a race war,"
it's like he found, you know,

1226
01:01:47,579 --> 01:01:49,206
his [snaps finger] aha moment.

1227
01:01:49,289 --> 01:01:51,708
[Vincent] Manson told his followers
that this would be a bloodbath,

1228
01:01:51,791 --> 01:01:53,460
and what happened on these
two nights you don't even see

1229
01:01:53,543 --> 01:01:55,086
in a horror movie.

1230
01:01:55,170 --> 01:01:57,297
Do you believe
in the Helter Skelter narrative?

1231
01:01:57,380 --> 01:01:58,381
No.

1232
01:01:58,465 --> 01:02:01,801
Lots of people have said
Manson spoke of a race war,

1233
01:02:01,885 --> 01:02:03,011
-that it was imminent.
-Mm-hmm.

1234
01:02:03,094 --> 01:02:05,013
[Sophia] But besides Linda Kasabian,

1235
01:02:05,096 --> 01:02:08,600
I can't find anyone
who said he wanted to start it.

1236
01:02:08,683 --> 01:02:10,894
Can you talk about her immunity agreement?

1237
01:02:10,977 --> 01:02:13,939
[Stephen] The prosecution,
they focused on Linda Kasabian

1238
01:02:14,022 --> 01:02:15,732
who was like the getaway driver,

1239
01:02:15,815 --> 01:02:18,276
but didn't physically participate
in the murders.

1240
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,987
Her attorney said,
"If she's gonna testify,

1241
01:02:21,071 --> 01:02:22,948
she has to be given full immunity."

1242
01:02:23,031 --> 01:02:27,202
You know, Linda Kasabian
was on the, the stand for weeks

1243
01:02:27,285 --> 01:02:29,496
and the, the jury, they believed her.

1244
01:02:29,579 --> 01:02:32,791
I don't like all this chaos
or whatever the word is.

1245
01:02:32,874 --> 01:02:34,292
[♪ intense music playing]

1246
01:02:34,376 --> 01:02:38,922
[group]
♪ All around, all around, all around ♪

1247
01:02:39,005 --> 01:02:41,967
I think there's, like, a turn
that happens during the trial,

1248
01:02:42,550 --> 01:02:44,636
and the women are so freaky.

1249
01:02:44,719 --> 01:02:47,138
[newscaster] They have been on this corner
for nearly five months,

1250
01:02:47,222 --> 01:02:49,891
and they vow to remain here
until Charlie is free.

1251
01:02:50,350 --> 01:02:51,518
[Jeff] You know, the girls are out

1252
01:02:51,601 --> 01:02:54,104
literally crawling
around the streets of LA.

1253
01:02:54,187 --> 01:02:57,399
They're performing outside the trial.

1254
01:02:58,066 --> 01:02:59,985
They're really trying to show

1255
01:03:00,068 --> 01:03:02,320
that they're just regular,
you know, young folks

1256
01:03:02,404 --> 01:03:04,739
who have some
unconventional ways about them

1257
01:03:04,823 --> 01:03:07,284
and not being able to, like, suppress

1258
01:03:07,367 --> 01:03:09,327
the anarchy in their hearts, you know?

1259
01:03:09,411 --> 01:03:11,121
[reporter] I noticed
that "X" in your forehead.

1260
01:03:11,204 --> 01:03:12,664
Why did you do that, may I ask?

1261
01:03:12,747 --> 01:03:18,753
The X just symbolizes our being X'd out
of this whole madness.

1262
01:03:18,837 --> 01:03:20,505
Why won't they let us testify?

1263
01:03:20,588 --> 01:03:22,132
[Lynette] [on phone]
So, we were trying to defend him,

1264
01:03:22,215 --> 01:03:24,050
but he didn't ask for that.

1265
01:03:24,134 --> 01:03:25,510
[reporter] When you saw
Mr. Manson this morning,

1266
01:03:25,593 --> 01:03:26,594
how did he look to you?

1267
01:03:27,846 --> 01:03:29,222
"Help!"

1268
01:03:29,306 --> 01:03:34,686
[Lynette] And in effect,
it made it worse for him.

1269
01:03:35,770 --> 01:03:39,024
[newscaster] All were found
guilty of murder in the first degree.

1270
01:03:39,107 --> 01:03:42,694
The prosecution in this case has used
this trial for political purposes.

1271
01:03:42,777 --> 01:03:44,738
[Sophia] Charles Manson's testimony.

1272
01:03:44,821 --> 01:03:46,614
"What you want is a fiend.

1273
01:03:46,698 --> 01:03:49,284
You want a sadistic fiend
because that is what you are."

1274
01:03:49,367 --> 01:03:53,872
The mass media and the public, uh,
have used it for entertainment purposes.

1275
01:03:53,955 --> 01:03:54,956
You dealt the hand.

1276
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:56,374
You put me on LIFE magazine,

1277
01:03:56,458 --> 01:03:58,460
and had me convicted
before I walked in the courtroom.

1278
01:03:59,002 --> 01:04:01,963
"You only reflect on me
what you are inside of yourselves

1279
01:04:02,047 --> 01:04:04,132
"because I don't care
anything about any of you,

1280
01:04:04,215 --> 01:04:05,675
and I don't care what you do."

1281
01:04:05,759 --> 01:04:07,886
Uh, you might say I'm kinda like Satan.

1282
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:11,014
I'm in so many different places at once.

1283
01:04:11,097 --> 01:04:14,684
I think he was giving people
what they wanted to see really.

1284
01:04:14,768 --> 01:04:17,729
[Charlie Rose] You were the--
one of the most infamous criminals...

1285
01:04:17,812 --> 01:04:19,564
-Of all time.
-...of all-- in the world.

1286
01:04:19,647 --> 01:04:22,400
He's playing for the interviews,
and he's playing for the public.

1287
01:04:22,484 --> 01:04:24,652
[gibberish] How many times
I got to go through...

1288
01:04:24,736 --> 01:04:27,364
[gibberish]

1289
01:04:27,447 --> 01:04:29,324
My curiosity gets a hold of me,

1290
01:04:29,407 --> 01:04:32,118
and I'm like,
"Is he leaning into this evil guy

1291
01:04:32,202 --> 01:04:34,954
'cause they started writing
about him as this evil person?"

1292
01:04:35,038 --> 01:04:37,374
On some level,
it's just, he looks the part.

1293
01:04:37,457 --> 01:04:39,250
Like, he's got the wild hair.
He's got the wild eyes.

1294
01:04:39,334 --> 01:04:42,379
He's got the beard.
He carves a swastika on his forehead.

1295
01:04:42,462 --> 01:04:44,422
It's like this very dramatic
physical presence.

1296
01:04:45,090 --> 01:04:46,383
Believe me,

1297
01:04:46,466 --> 01:04:48,676
if I started murdering people...

1298
01:04:49,886 --> 01:04:51,638
there'd be none of you left.

1299
01:04:51,721 --> 01:04:53,139
And so, for mainstream press coverage,

1300
01:04:53,223 --> 01:04:55,392
he's, like, the fulfillment
of the worst dream

1301
01:04:55,475 --> 01:04:57,852
that's been, you know,
prognosticated for years.

1302
01:04:57,936 --> 01:04:59,979
He plays the boogeyman.
He knows how to do it.

1303
01:05:00,063 --> 01:05:03,066
It would be very sharp
for one person to do all the things

1304
01:05:03,149 --> 01:05:04,692
that I'm gonna have to do...

1305
01:05:06,319 --> 01:05:07,821
to survive...

1306
01:05:08,238 --> 01:05:12,659
in you, and in you, and in you...

1307
01:05:14,285 --> 01:05:15,620
and in you too.

1308
01:05:17,872 --> 01:05:20,166
[Sophia] The thing about
my dad and my grandfather

1309
01:05:20,250 --> 01:05:23,503
is that they never had the tools
to heal their trauma.

1310
01:05:24,254 --> 01:05:26,965
So, when someone tells them
they have darkness in their nature,

1311
01:05:28,007 --> 01:05:29,300
they double down.

1312
01:05:29,801 --> 01:05:32,011
[line ringing]

1313
01:05:32,095 --> 01:05:37,142
My dad and I always argued
over sexism, over Manson,

1314
01:05:37,225 --> 01:05:39,602
but he started taking it
really personally.

1315
01:05:39,686 --> 01:05:42,147
[automated response] [on phone]
I'm sorry, but the person you called

1316
01:05:42,230 --> 01:05:44,941
has a voice mailbox
that has not been set up yet.

1317
01:05:45,024 --> 01:05:47,360
[♪ gentle melancholic music playing]

1318
01:05:49,696 --> 01:05:52,449
[Sophia] And then, it all boiled over.

1319
01:05:53,199 --> 01:05:54,409
Tell me what you just said.

1320
01:05:54,492 --> 01:05:55,827
-[Daniel] No, you tell me.
-[Sophia] Yeah, tell me.

1321
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:57,078
[Daniel] No, you tell me.

1322
01:05:57,162 --> 01:05:58,371
[Sophia] Do you wanna
call me those things again?

1323
01:05:58,455 --> 01:05:59,914
[Daniel] Because that's
what your trigger words are.

1324
01:05:59,998 --> 01:06:00,999
[Sophia] And what is it?

1325
01:06:01,082 --> 01:06:02,208
[Daniel] Yeah, those are
your trigger words.

1326
01:06:02,292 --> 01:06:03,877
-[Sophia] Call me, call me it right now.
-[Daniel] Those are your trigger words.

1327
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:05,170
[Sophia] Call me a bitch
and call me a cunt.

1328
01:06:05,253 --> 01:06:07,130
-[Daniel] Take me home, please.
-[Sophia] Call me. Call it me.

1329
01:06:07,672 --> 01:06:08,965
Don't stop being a sexist now.

1330
01:06:09,048 --> 01:06:10,175
[Daniel] Why are you parked in the road?

1331
01:06:10,258 --> 01:06:11,551
Why are you risking our lives right now?

1332
01:06:11,634 --> 01:06:13,052
[Sophia] Don't do that now.
Don't cop out now.

1333
01:06:13,136 --> 01:06:14,429
[Daniel] Why are you
risking our lives now?

1334
01:06:14,512 --> 01:06:16,556
[Sophia] Don't cop out now.
Don't cop out now. Tell me.

1335
01:06:16,639 --> 01:06:18,766
[Daniel] You better get out
of here right now, young lady.

1336
01:06:18,850 --> 01:06:20,894
-You're risking our lives.
-[Sophia] You hate me.

1337
01:06:20,977 --> 01:06:22,604
[Daniel] Because you're a fucking idiot.

1338
01:06:22,687 --> 01:06:23,980
[Sophia] Yeah, okay.

1339
01:06:24,689 --> 01:06:27,442
[Daniel] And I regret
calling you my daughter

1340
01:06:27,525 --> 01:06:29,694
because you're a lying fucking bitch.

1341
01:06:29,777 --> 01:06:30,820
[Sophia] How-- What did I lie about?

1342
01:06:30,904 --> 01:06:31,946
[Daniel] Everything.

1343
01:06:32,030 --> 01:06:33,364
-[Sophia] What did I lie about?
-[Daniel] Take me home.

1344
01:06:33,448 --> 01:06:34,991
-Don't talk to me.
-[Sophia sighs]

1345
01:06:38,411 --> 01:06:39,954
[turn signal clicking]

1346
01:06:41,748 --> 01:06:43,458
[Sophia] Before I drop you off,
can I say something?

1347
01:06:43,541 --> 01:06:46,211
[Daniel] No.
Don't fucking say a word to me.

1348
01:06:46,294 --> 01:06:47,295
[Sophia] I'm not mad at you.

1349
01:06:47,378 --> 01:06:48,463
[Daniel] I'm not mad at you either.

1350
01:06:48,546 --> 01:06:50,798
Don't fucking say a word to me.
Drop me off on the corner.

1351
01:06:50,882 --> 01:06:52,133
I don't wanna ever talk to you again.

1352
01:06:52,217 --> 01:06:53,218
[Sophia] Don't say that.

1353
01:06:53,301 --> 01:06:54,802
-[Daniel] I don't-- Fuck--
-[Sophia] Don't say that.

1354
01:06:54,886 --> 01:06:56,137
-Don't say that.
-[Daniel] Just go on that corner.

1355
01:06:56,221 --> 01:06:57,764
-I don't wanna talk to you ever again.
-[Sophia] Don't say that.

1356
01:06:57,847 --> 01:06:58,973
Don't say that.

1357
01:06:59,057 --> 01:07:00,183
-[Daniel] Goodbye.
-[Sophia] No.

1358
01:07:00,266 --> 01:07:01,601
-[Daniel] Yeah.
-[Sophia] I'm not letting you.

1359
01:07:01,684 --> 01:07:02,936
-[Daniel] Goodbye.
-[Sophia] I'm not letting you

1360
01:07:03,019 --> 01:07:04,312
get out of the car with that.

1361
01:07:04,395 --> 01:07:06,773
-[Daniel] Stop. Right here.
-No-- I don't care.

1362
01:07:06,856 --> 01:07:07,941
I'm not mad at you. I don't care...

1363
01:07:08,024 --> 01:07:09,108
[Daniel] Stop, right here!

1364
01:07:09,192 --> 01:07:10,360
-No.
-[Daniel] Yes!

1365
01:07:10,443 --> 01:07:12,237
-No.
-[Daniel] Stop, right now!

1366
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:14,113
-Don't do that.
-[car door opens]

1367
01:07:14,197 --> 01:07:16,157
[♪ tense music playing]

1368
01:07:21,333 --> 01:07:23,331
♪♪

1369
01:07:28,962 --> 01:07:31,005
[Sophia grunting]

1370
01:07:31,089 --> 01:07:33,716
[trainer speaking indistinctly]

1371
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:36,219
[grunting continues]

1372
01:07:36,302 --> 01:07:38,846
Ever since I've been investigating...

1373
01:07:38,930 --> 01:07:40,890
[grunting continues]

1374
01:07:40,974 --> 01:07:43,768
...and I've been talking
about his dad to my dad...

1375
01:07:43,851 --> 01:07:45,395
[grunting continues]

1376
01:07:46,312 --> 01:07:49,065
...every time I find out
something new about his father

1377
01:07:49,148 --> 01:07:51,734
that's sad or heartbreaking or murderous

1378
01:07:51,818 --> 01:07:54,404
or guilty, whatever it might be...

1379
01:07:54,487 --> 01:07:55,947
[panting]

1380
01:07:56,030 --> 01:07:57,615
...my dad breaks a little.

1381
01:07:59,075 --> 01:08:00,743
And it's, like, the question is,

1382
01:08:00,827 --> 01:08:03,204
do you abandon and leave them
like everyone else

1383
01:08:03,288 --> 01:08:04,747
has abandoned and left them...

1384
01:08:05,373 --> 01:08:07,125
or do you stick it out?

1385
01:08:07,208 --> 01:08:09,711
♪♪

1386
01:08:13,089 --> 01:08:15,091
I'm not talking with my dad.

1387
01:08:16,926 --> 01:08:18,469
I don't talk to my mom.

1388
01:08:19,429 --> 01:08:22,015
And I don't talk to anyone
who doesn't make me feel...

1389
01:08:22,682 --> 01:08:25,268
good or happy or, like, safe to be myself.

1390
01:08:25,351 --> 01:08:27,437
That's how I protect myself

1391
01:08:28,146 --> 01:08:31,149
'cause I feel safe alone.

1392
01:08:32,817 --> 01:08:35,194
[Charles] [on laptop]
You can't fight for peace.

1393
01:08:35,278 --> 01:08:37,572
[Charles/Sophia]
You cannot capture freedom.

1394
01:08:37,655 --> 01:08:38,781
[Charles chuckles]

1395
01:08:38,865 --> 01:08:40,491
[Charles] And it's just
a simple little old thing, man,

1396
01:08:40,575 --> 01:08:42,910
that any little baby
could figure out if we didn't...

1397
01:08:42,994 --> 01:08:44,329
Put cancer in their minds.

1398
01:08:44,412 --> 01:08:46,164
[Charles] ...put cancer in their minds.

1399
01:08:46,873 --> 01:08:48,791
If someone beats you with a whip

1400
01:08:48,875 --> 01:08:50,543
and you love the whip...

1401
01:08:50,627 --> 01:08:52,587
[chuckles] what's he doing?

1402
01:08:52,670 --> 01:08:55,673
He's making a fool outta himself.
[laughing]

1403
01:08:56,799 --> 01:08:59,844
[Sophia] I think it's interesting
that he was accused

1404
01:08:59,927 --> 01:09:02,639
of giving this incredibly abusive love

1405
01:09:02,722 --> 01:09:04,891
to his cult followers.

1406
01:09:06,392 --> 01:09:10,855
And later, he's known for abusive love.

1407
01:09:10,938 --> 01:09:13,608
I'm not saying
he's innocent of abusive love.

1408
01:09:13,691 --> 01:09:15,443
I think he's capable of both,

1409
01:09:15,860 --> 01:09:17,695
but he's not, like, going around,

1410
01:09:17,779 --> 01:09:20,698
and I don't think
my dad is either, going like,

1411
01:09:20,782 --> 01:09:22,700
"I'm gonna make Sophia think I love her,

1412
01:09:22,784 --> 01:09:26,496
so that I can abandon her
and test her loyalty to me."

1413
01:09:26,579 --> 01:09:28,498
I think they're just troubled.

1414
01:09:29,207 --> 01:09:33,336
[Allie] I think there's something
interesting in all this

1415
01:09:33,419 --> 01:09:35,880
that is maybe, like,
below the surface in you.

1416
01:09:35,963 --> 01:09:40,968
There's something about this quote
that's doing something for you

1417
01:09:41,052 --> 01:09:45,973
that helps you feel better
about your grandfather,

1418
01:09:46,057 --> 01:09:48,267
and I'm curious what that is?

1419
01:09:49,268 --> 01:09:50,895
It's anti-war.

1420
01:09:53,314 --> 01:09:57,318
And I mean,
Stephen, the prosecutor, told me,

1421
01:09:57,402 --> 01:09:59,320
"All he wanted to do was start a war

1422
01:09:59,821 --> 01:10:01,322
and he never spoke of love."

1423
01:10:01,406 --> 01:10:04,283
Now, I've met enough people
to know that that's not true.

1424
01:10:05,076 --> 01:10:07,078
♪♪

1425
01:10:07,704 --> 01:10:10,748
[Allie] I am not pushing against
that interpretation,

1426
01:10:10,832 --> 01:10:14,627
but what I'm going
to reflect back to you...

1427
01:10:14,711 --> 01:10:17,755
when you spend a bunch of time
listening to your grandfather,

1428
01:10:17,839 --> 01:10:22,468
or before, when you spend a bunch of time
listening to your dad...

1429
01:10:22,552 --> 01:10:24,887
I hear, sometimes, your dad.

1430
01:10:26,347 --> 01:10:28,641
Here's the thing... you're right.

1431
01:10:28,725 --> 01:10:30,101
I was raised by my dad,

1432
01:10:30,184 --> 01:10:33,396
and there's a lot of, like,
dad thoughts and dad-dad patterns.

1433
01:10:34,355 --> 01:10:38,317
I've always thought of myself and my dad
as very adaptable people.

1434
01:10:39,318 --> 01:10:40,737
You could put me...

1435
01:10:41,696 --> 01:10:44,741
in a room with someone
who killed somebody.

1436
01:10:44,824 --> 01:10:51,831
[Allie] I just-- I’m sorry. You are
working so hard to help them sound better.

1437
01:10:52,832 --> 01:10:54,292
I don't know. I don't know.

1438
01:10:54,375 --> 01:10:57,003
But Dr. Rose also said
Manson was parentified

1439
01:10:57,086 --> 01:10:58,629
and my dad's parentified.

1440
01:10:58,713 --> 01:11:00,757
[Allie] I believe it.
But I guess what I'm saying is...

1441
01:11:02,008 --> 01:11:05,887
you are more than their patterns.
Don't you feel that in you?

1442
01:11:05,970 --> 01:11:07,305
[Sophia] Sure, yeah.

1443
01:11:07,388 --> 01:11:09,807
[♪ gentle music playing]

1444
01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:15,146
My dad would tell me
his golden years were just raising me,

1445
01:11:15,229 --> 01:11:16,814
being a stay-at-home dad,

1446
01:11:16,898 --> 01:11:19,650
and I really felt that love, you know?

1447
01:11:20,985 --> 01:11:22,069
Every day.

1448
01:11:22,820 --> 01:11:25,782
Didn't mean he didn't get
emotionally turbulent.

1449
01:11:25,865 --> 01:11:27,033
Um...

1450
01:11:27,867 --> 01:11:30,119
he could flip on a dime.

1451
01:11:31,621 --> 01:11:33,164
♪♪

1452
01:11:33,247 --> 01:11:35,875
Can be very, very generous and giving,

1453
01:11:35,958 --> 01:11:37,877
and then be very, very selfish.

1454
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,463
So, he's always had this duality...

1455
01:11:40,546 --> 01:11:44,634
um, but I've always held on
to the loving part.

1456
01:11:44,717 --> 01:11:45,760
[Dianne] Part, right.

1457
01:11:45,843 --> 01:11:50,097
When you love somebody,
you forgive... far and wide,

1458
01:11:50,181 --> 01:11:53,643
the indiscretions
or the, you know, the bad stuff.

1459
01:11:53,726 --> 01:11:55,812
You know, you kinda just...

1460
01:11:56,979 --> 01:11:58,773
you don't dwell on it.

1461
01:11:58,856 --> 01:12:00,983
Did you feel, at the time,

1462
01:12:01,067 --> 01:12:02,985
that Charlie's love was genuine to you?

1463
01:12:03,069 --> 01:12:05,196
Yeah, I did.

1464
01:12:05,863 --> 01:12:07,240
I-I-I really did.

1465
01:12:07,323 --> 01:12:08,324
And I think he--

1466
01:12:08,407 --> 01:12:12,245
But on the other hand,
I also learned that, um,

1467
01:12:12,703 --> 01:12:17,250
that's what the pimps had taught him.

1468
01:12:17,917 --> 01:12:21,003
And he was definitely,
you know, manipulative.

1469
01:12:21,546 --> 01:12:23,381
He did, you know, he did hurt me.

1470
01:12:23,464 --> 01:12:25,299
We talked about pimping me out.

1471
01:12:25,383 --> 01:12:28,928
And then, you know, he--
we hadn't had sex for a while,

1472
01:12:29,011 --> 01:12:31,389
and I really wanted him to want me,

1473
01:12:31,472 --> 01:12:34,392
you know, because of that first experience

1474
01:12:34,475 --> 01:12:36,602
and other experiences were just

1475
01:12:36,686 --> 01:12:39,647
so incredibly wonderful, right?

1476
01:12:40,273 --> 01:12:43,484
We went to this, you know,
this little gypsy caravan

1477
01:12:43,568 --> 01:12:46,779
that was halfway between the ranch house
and the back ranch house

1478
01:12:47,405 --> 01:12:50,825
and, um, you know,
took our clothes off and...

1479
01:12:53,536 --> 01:12:54,704
it wasn't the same.

1480
01:12:54,787 --> 01:12:56,998
He turned me around and...

1481
01:12:58,541 --> 01:13:01,586
sodomized me, you know, rather brutally,

1482
01:13:01,669 --> 01:13:04,714
and then said, "That's the way
we do it in prison," you know.

1483
01:13:04,797 --> 01:13:06,507
And left me crying.

1484
01:13:06,591 --> 01:13:09,552
And that was, you know,
I, I never asked him

1485
01:13:09,635 --> 01:13:11,762
for sex again, for sure.

1486
01:13:11,846 --> 01:13:14,557
And I, I don't think
we ever did have sex again.

1487
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:17,101
That was really, that was really painful.

1488
01:13:17,184 --> 01:13:19,937
I-I didn't deserve that, you know.

1489
01:13:20,021 --> 01:13:21,230
Um...

1490
01:13:22,690 --> 01:13:24,442
I'm really sorry that happened to you.

1491
01:13:25,568 --> 01:13:28,195
I think you're a very strong person.

1492
01:13:28,279 --> 01:13:30,740
And so open and honest.

1493
01:13:32,074 --> 01:13:33,951
[Dianne] It was very hard for me to,

1494
01:13:34,035 --> 01:13:37,204
um, accept the fact that, you know,

1495
01:13:37,288 --> 01:13:39,707
that I had been-- I'd stayed.

1496
01:13:40,499 --> 01:13:45,254
I was really young, and I, I thought
Charlie would be mad at me if I left,

1497
01:13:45,338 --> 01:13:46,881
and I didn't know where to go.

1498
01:13:49,884 --> 01:13:50,968
I don't know.

1499
01:13:51,052 --> 01:13:52,678
When I hear them, they break my heart

1500
01:13:52,762 --> 01:13:54,597
'cause that's not the dad that I know.

1501
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:58,225
-It's not what my dad and I stand for.
-He's-- But he's not your dad.

1502
01:13:58,309 --> 01:14:00,394
♪♪

1503
01:14:00,478 --> 01:14:01,896
[Sophia] He can be so loving.

1504
01:14:02,939 --> 01:14:04,273
He can be so hateful.

1505
01:14:04,815 --> 01:14:07,318
There's no reason,
like, there's no reason for him

1506
01:14:07,401 --> 01:14:09,028
to have changed on a dime to you.

1507
01:14:09,737 --> 01:14:11,781
-We didn't deserve that.
-Right.

1508
01:14:11,864 --> 01:14:15,117
But then, they don't have the tools
to know what personality

1509
01:14:15,201 --> 01:14:17,578
or mental health thing
they're going through.

1510
01:14:18,621 --> 01:14:20,206
You know what? It's hard.

1511
01:14:21,082 --> 01:14:22,416
It's hard, I know.

1512
01:14:22,500 --> 01:14:24,877
[♪ somber music playing]

1513
01:14:25,670 --> 01:14:29,465
[Sophia] I see similar patterns
in my dad and my grandfather.

1514
01:14:29,548 --> 01:14:32,510
Those sudden, almost manic changes.

1515
01:14:33,427 --> 01:14:35,137
But with my grandfather,

1516
01:14:35,221 --> 01:14:37,848
the panic of the murders
occurring took hold of him

1517
01:14:37,932 --> 01:14:39,350
in those final months.

1518
01:14:41,060 --> 01:14:42,770
To understand it better,

1519
01:14:42,853 --> 01:14:44,730
I'm going to meet Stephanie Schram,

1520
01:14:44,814 --> 01:14:48,025
his final girlfriend
before the murders of '69.

1521
01:14:49,735 --> 01:14:50,736
[Stephanie Schram] Have a seat.

1522
01:14:50,820 --> 01:14:53,072
[Sophia] Thank you so much.
It's so cute out here.

1523
01:14:53,531 --> 01:14:55,783
I was wondering, um,

1524
01:14:55,866 --> 01:14:59,161
if you could describe
the first time you met my grandfather.

1525
01:14:59,245 --> 01:15:02,415
I-I-I just wanted to be, like,
loose and free,

1526
01:15:02,498 --> 01:15:05,626
and, uh, a friend of mine was, um,

1527
01:15:05,710 --> 01:15:10,840
driving up to, uh, Nevada
to visit his, um, aunt and uncle.

1528
01:15:10,923 --> 01:15:13,009
And I-- So, he said,
"You wanna go with?"

1529
01:15:13,092 --> 01:15:16,345
And so, it was on that trip
coming back that I met Charlie,

1530
01:15:16,429 --> 01:15:18,264
and I was just taken with him.

1531
01:15:19,348 --> 01:15:22,268
I think it was just 'cause
I was, I was looking for something.

1532
01:15:23,144 --> 01:15:27,064
The night that I met him, he took me
to meet everybody at the ranch.

1533
01:15:28,274 --> 01:15:30,943
Everybody was very glad
to see Charlie back.

1534
01:15:31,027 --> 01:15:33,154
He was recruiting,

1535
01:15:33,237 --> 01:15:36,115
and I think that they thought
that he'd be--

1536
01:15:36,198 --> 01:15:40,536
he'd have several new,
uh, recruits with him,

1537
01:15:40,619 --> 01:15:43,164
and all he had was me, um.

1538
01:15:43,247 --> 01:15:45,750
The first night that we were there,

1539
01:15:45,833 --> 01:15:49,503
he told me go to sleep in--
there was a trailer.

1540
01:15:49,587 --> 01:15:51,756
And he said, you know, "Go there

1541
01:15:51,839 --> 01:15:53,966
and I'll, I'll be in there
in a little bit."

1542
01:15:54,050 --> 01:15:57,053
Well, evidently, I fell asleep and, um,

1543
01:15:57,136 --> 01:15:59,305
he went out,
and that's the night it happened.

1544
01:15:59,388 --> 01:16:00,931
-[Sophia] The LaBiancas.
-The-- Mm-hmm.

1545
01:16:01,015 --> 01:16:03,100
♪♪

1546
01:16:03,184 --> 01:16:07,146
He didn't come back
to, to bed until, like, dawn.

1547
01:16:07,229 --> 01:16:08,230
[Sophia] Hmm.

1548
01:16:08,314 --> 01:16:10,983
Do you believe he said
those things to those people?

1549
01:16:11,067 --> 01:16:13,027
To go and do that? Yes.

1550
01:16:13,569 --> 01:16:15,154
[Sophia] Okay, what makes you think that?

1551
01:16:15,237 --> 01:16:18,949
[Stephanie]
Well, he did like murder school.

1552
01:16:19,033 --> 01:16:20,159
It was like a little class.

1553
01:16:20,242 --> 01:16:23,079
He'd tell you how to put a knife in
and what to do with it,

1554
01:16:23,162 --> 01:16:26,916
so that you were sure somebody
was dead and stuff like that.

1555
01:16:26,999 --> 01:16:30,544
And... that wasn't what I was there for.

1556
01:16:30,628 --> 01:16:32,463
♪♪

1557
01:16:32,922 --> 01:16:34,507
Who was at that class?

1558
01:16:34,590 --> 01:16:36,342
All the girls, everybody.

1559
01:16:36,425 --> 01:16:39,136
Everybody that was--
It was out in the desert, you know.

1560
01:16:39,220 --> 01:16:40,971
-At Barker?
-[Stephanie] Yeah.

1561
01:16:41,055 --> 01:16:42,431
[Sophia] So, this was after the murders?

1562
01:16:42,515 --> 01:16:45,059
[Stephanie] Yeah. Yeah.

1563
01:16:45,601 --> 01:16:49,105
One of the things that Charlie
had us doing was digging holes.

1564
01:16:49,188 --> 01:16:50,898
"What are we doing this for?"

1565
01:16:52,608 --> 01:16:55,569
And he said, you know,
"Those were for us to hide in."

1566
01:16:55,653 --> 01:16:57,363
-[Sophia] Mm-hmm.
-And...

1567
01:16:58,739 --> 01:17:00,950
there had to be more than I knew

1568
01:17:01,033 --> 01:17:03,953
because I thought, "Why?
I'm not hiding from anybody."

1569
01:17:04,537 --> 01:17:05,788
But they, they were.

1570
01:17:10,543 --> 01:17:14,505
Um, and that's why it started
to get weirder and weirder to me.

1571
01:17:15,464 --> 01:17:17,174
So, that's,

1572
01:17:17,258 --> 01:17:19,468
-that's why I wanted to leave.
-[Sophia] Mm-hmm.

1573
01:17:19,552 --> 01:17:22,054
You don't need to, you know...

1574
01:17:22,138 --> 01:17:24,640
-[Stephanie] Yeah.
-...talk too in, in depth about it...

1575
01:17:24,723 --> 01:17:25,975
-[Stephanie] Yeah.
-...if it'll upset you,

1576
01:17:26,058 --> 01:17:29,228
but, like, how did you find yourself to--

1577
01:17:29,854 --> 01:17:31,438
or get yourself to escape?

1578
01:17:32,106 --> 01:17:35,317
[Stephanie] "Kitty" and I,
we would sit and talk about

1579
01:17:35,401 --> 01:17:38,529
how much we miss 31 Flavors ice cream.

1580
01:17:38,612 --> 01:17:41,282
We started talking about
Thanksgiving and turkey

1581
01:17:41,365 --> 01:17:43,075
and stuffing and everything.
[chuckling]

1582
01:17:43,159 --> 01:17:44,410
Sounds like you guys are hungry.

1583
01:17:44,493 --> 01:17:46,245
Yeah. We were most of the time.

1584
01:17:46,328 --> 01:17:47,496
-So hungry.
-Yeah.

1585
01:17:47,580 --> 01:17:50,875
Um, and so, I-I really--

1586
01:17:51,542 --> 01:17:55,004
I-- A lot of things are gone
outta my memory, you know,

1587
01:17:55,087 --> 01:17:56,213
bits and pieces of stuff.

1588
01:17:56,297 --> 01:17:59,967
But I-I-- We just decided
when everybody went to sleep,

1589
01:18:00,050 --> 01:18:03,012
this one night, we're just gonna take off.

1590
01:18:03,095 --> 01:18:06,056
-Yeah.
-And, um, and we did.

1591
01:18:06,140 --> 01:18:08,184
We had gotten to the top of the wash,

1592
01:18:08,267 --> 01:18:11,979
and they were looking for us
and we knew they were, so--

1593
01:18:12,062 --> 01:18:13,355
But we were at the top of the wash,

1594
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:15,357
and the dune buggies
couldn't make it to the top.

1595
01:18:15,441 --> 01:18:17,151
So, we just walked until

1596
01:18:17,234 --> 01:18:19,403
down the road came a car
and it was the sheriff.

1597
01:18:19,486 --> 01:18:21,530
-[Sophia] Hmm.
-[Stephanie] So, "Help."

1598
01:18:21,614 --> 01:18:22,698
-[Sophia] Yeah.
-[Stephanie] [chuckles] You know?

1599
01:18:31,373 --> 01:18:34,710
[clears throat]
Charlie, um, had made it clear to us,

1600
01:18:34,793 --> 01:18:37,504
"Once you're here, don't go.

1601
01:18:37,588 --> 01:18:40,674
If you do go, we'll kill you, and--"

1602
01:18:40,758 --> 01:18:42,051
-[Sophia] Did he say that to you?
-[Stephanie] Yeah.

1603
01:18:42,426 --> 01:18:45,930
You know, I think he probably,
at some point, told me that.

1604
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:49,433
I can't really remember, um, the occasion

1605
01:18:49,516 --> 01:18:51,435
or exactly what happened,

1606
01:18:51,518 --> 01:18:53,979
but I was well aware...

1607
01:18:54,897 --> 01:18:57,066
that once you're in the family,
you don't leave.

1608
01:18:57,149 --> 01:19:00,194
And I was afraid.
I was afraid that I'd end up dead.

1609
01:19:00,611 --> 01:19:05,199
And what was happening with those
people, people was not a, a commune.

1610
01:19:05,282 --> 01:19:06,784
It was a cult. [chuckles]

1611
01:19:06,867 --> 01:19:08,577
-Yeah.
-[Stephanie] So...

1612
01:19:10,037 --> 01:19:12,039
[steady electronic whine]

1613
01:19:12,456 --> 01:19:14,959
[Stephanie] As a group, they...

1614
01:19:15,501 --> 01:19:17,086
worshiped Charlie.

1615
01:19:17,169 --> 01:19:19,421
They thought he was God.
They really did.

1616
01:19:19,505 --> 01:19:22,466
And I'm-- I think maybe,
at some point, I did too.

1617
01:19:23,342 --> 01:19:28,264
The girls were, um, sufficiently,
I'll use the word "brainwashed."

1618
01:19:28,347 --> 01:19:31,517
They were sufficiently
brainwashed by Charlie and they--

1619
01:19:31,600 --> 01:19:33,435
And that's...

1620
01:19:33,519 --> 01:19:36,272
You know, he pretty much
dictated their behavior.

1621
01:19:36,355 --> 01:19:37,648
Uh...

1622
01:19:37,731 --> 01:19:39,400
so I just followed along.

1623
01:19:41,110 --> 01:19:43,320
I always felt that, um,

1624
01:19:43,404 --> 01:19:48,033
Charlie had that much control
over their minds.

1625
01:19:48,117 --> 01:19:49,410
Really, I did.

1626
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:53,038
A lot of this stuff is unbelievable.

1627
01:19:54,540 --> 01:19:56,417
[Sophia] Mm-hmm. It is unbelievable.

1628
01:19:57,334 --> 01:19:59,628
-It's not so black and white.
-[Stephanie] Yeah.

1629
01:20:02,464 --> 01:20:03,590
[Sophia] Cool.

1630
01:20:03,674 --> 01:20:05,884
[birds chirping]

1631
01:20:07,011 --> 01:20:10,306
She is so sweet and so kind.

1632
01:20:12,057 --> 01:20:13,267
She kissed me goodbye and said,

1633
01:20:13,350 --> 01:20:15,477
"I really enjoyed talking with you today."

1634
01:20:16,770 --> 01:20:19,273
I think she persevered
and overcame a lot...

1635
01:20:20,316 --> 01:20:25,070
but she showed me her box
of Charlie Manson, um... research.

1636
01:20:25,821 --> 01:20:29,783
The books were Helter Skelter,
the book by Jeff Guinn

1637
01:20:29,867 --> 01:20:31,869
and the Nuel Emmons' book.

1638
01:20:32,453 --> 01:20:36,040
Those are, like, the three most
sensational anti-Charles Manson...

1639
01:20:36,957 --> 01:20:38,834
books you can, you can get.

1640
01:20:38,917 --> 01:20:40,961
And I got really upset.

1641
01:20:41,045 --> 01:20:43,297
♪♪

1642
01:20:43,380 --> 01:20:47,593
You know, if you, um,
ask my dad's half-brother,

1643
01:20:47,676 --> 01:20:50,387
he would tell you my dad
wasn't kicked out of the house

1644
01:20:50,471 --> 01:20:51,972
and he wasn't abused.

1645
01:20:52,848 --> 01:20:55,893
He would say that my dad just ran away,
ran off with his friend.

1646
01:20:57,394 --> 01:21:01,106
He'd say all these things
about my dad because...

1647
01:21:01,982 --> 01:21:05,778
he knows just enough
to get it completely wrong.

1648
01:21:07,946 --> 01:21:09,948
She knows enough in those books

1649
01:21:10,032 --> 01:21:12,284
to say, "Oh, he must have told me that,"

1650
01:21:12,368 --> 01:21:14,453
because she read it over and over again

1651
01:21:14,536 --> 01:21:18,749
that they would ki-- that Charlie would
kill people if they left the ranch.

1652
01:21:18,832 --> 01:21:21,877
That is my opinion,
and I don't really wanna argue about it.

1653
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:24,380
I-I can have my therapist push back,

1654
01:21:24,463 --> 01:21:27,383
but I'm not really comfortable
arguing about it with you.

1655
01:21:27,466 --> 01:21:29,176
[Allie] Why not?

1656
01:21:29,259 --> 01:21:32,679
[Sophia] I don't need to be
always processing on a whim

1657
01:21:32,763 --> 01:21:36,475
when traumatic things
just happen to me and put on camera.

1658
01:21:36,558 --> 01:21:38,477
It's unfair, and I've done it so often.

1659
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:41,772
I do it so many times,
and I-- there's only so much I can take.

1660
01:21:41,855 --> 01:21:44,024
[Allie] So, I totally hear that.

1661
01:21:44,108 --> 01:21:46,568
Why--
You could have talked to the therapist.

1662
01:21:46,652 --> 01:21:49,822
Allie, if anyone wants to believe

1663
01:21:49,905 --> 01:21:53,200
that he did those things,
be my fucking guest.

1664
01:21:53,784 --> 01:21:54,785
Be my guest.

1665
01:21:54,868 --> 01:21:57,830
I don't care. I literally don't care.

1666
01:21:57,913 --> 01:22:00,541
Everyone else thinks it anyway,
so who cares?

1667
01:22:00,624 --> 01:22:02,626
I'm telling you what I feel

1668
01:22:02,709 --> 01:22:04,503
because the camera's pointed at me,

1669
01:22:04,586 --> 01:22:06,338
and I'm going on this journey.

1670
01:22:06,422 --> 01:22:09,133
I've read the transcripts.
I've looked at the evidence.

1671
01:22:09,216 --> 01:22:12,761
I knew all the events that she had
missing holes and memories from.

1672
01:22:14,096 --> 01:22:16,432
[Allie] You don't have to endorse it,
but, like, do you feel--

1673
01:22:16,515 --> 01:22:18,308
'Cause when I watched you
listen to that stuff,

1674
01:22:18,392 --> 01:22:19,768
you-- your wall went up.

1675
01:22:19,852 --> 01:22:21,645
I don't--

1676
01:22:22,396 --> 01:22:23,564
[scoffs]

1677
01:22:25,732 --> 01:22:27,067
Well, I'm very sorry.

1678
01:22:27,151 --> 01:22:28,861
[Allie] No, I'm not
asking you to feel bad.

1679
01:22:28,944 --> 01:22:30,154
I'm asking...

1680
01:22:31,113 --> 01:22:32,573
[Sophia] [sighs] Fuck me then.

1681
01:22:32,656 --> 01:22:34,199
Like, I don't know.
Maybe I'm not doing enough.

1682
01:22:34,283 --> 01:22:35,659
I really can't do it anymore.

1683
01:22:35,742 --> 01:22:37,578
Can't do it, I'm done.

1684
01:22:37,661 --> 01:22:39,496
It's fucked up, dude.

1685
01:22:44,626 --> 01:22:46,962
[steady electronic whine]

1686
01:22:49,381 --> 01:22:51,383
[♪ foreboding music playing]

1687
01:22:55,721 --> 01:22:57,139
[♪ jarring stinger]

1688
01:22:57,222 --> 01:22:59,224
[♪ music continues]

1689
01:23:00,893 --> 01:23:02,769
[newscaster] Young girls,
supposedly under the spell

1690
01:23:02,853 --> 01:23:04,104
of a bearded Svengali.

1691
01:23:04,188 --> 01:23:06,565
[Vincent] Slaughtered the victims
in an orgy of murder.

1692
01:23:06,648 --> 01:23:08,609
[Dan] Your grandfather
was a product of the failure

1693
01:23:08,692 --> 01:23:10,319
of the juvenile justice system.

1694
01:23:10,402 --> 01:23:12,488
[Daniel] We were all raised
by dysfunctional people

1695
01:23:12,571 --> 01:23:14,281
who were raised by dysfunctional people.

1696
01:23:14,364 --> 01:23:15,908
[Charles] If I wanted to kill somebody,

1697
01:23:16,366 --> 01:23:18,577
I'd take this book
and beat you to death with it.

1698
01:23:18,660 --> 01:23:21,121
[Nikolas] You doubt everything
that your father said?

1699
01:23:21,205 --> 01:23:22,789
[Daniel] I don't believe
a word of anything.

1700
01:23:22,873 --> 01:23:25,751
[Dianne] When you love somebody,
you forgive far and wide,

1701
01:23:25,834 --> 01:23:26,919
you know, the bad stuff.

1702
01:23:27,002 --> 01:23:28,837
[Daniel] Don't fucking say a word to me.

1703
01:23:28,921 --> 01:23:31,340
-[Sophia] I'm not mad at you.
-[Daniel] Don't fuckin' say a word to me.

1704
01:23:32,299 --> 01:23:35,219
[Sophia] Ever since my therapist told me
I was being pushed and pulled

1705
01:23:35,302 --> 01:23:37,137
in so many different directions, I...

1706
01:23:37,763 --> 01:23:39,806
I'm now so aware of it.

1707
01:23:41,058 --> 01:23:43,143
I don't wanna feel this way anymore.

1708
01:23:43,227 --> 01:23:44,728
-[♪ intense music playing]
-[steady electronic whine]

1709
01:23:46,188 --> 01:23:48,065
[voice breaking] I just want it to stop.

1710
01:23:49,107 --> 01:23:51,944
[♪ somber music playing]

1711
01:23:52,027 --> 01:23:53,862
[Allie] She is the director of a movie...

1712
01:23:54,571 --> 01:23:56,114
and it's really hard.

1713
01:23:56,198 --> 01:23:58,200
And I wish she had had better parents.

1714
01:23:59,826 --> 01:24:01,703
[♪ music continues]

1715
01:24:04,331 --> 01:24:07,543
[voice breaking] Now, she's trying
to be an adult all alone.

1716
01:24:07,626 --> 01:24:10,003
No help, no roadmap.

1717
01:24:10,087 --> 01:24:12,548
♪♪

1718
01:24:13,131 --> 01:24:15,259
She just needs more people to love her

1719
01:24:15,342 --> 01:24:17,177
and give her what she gives others.

1720
01:24:18,095 --> 01:24:19,721
'Cause until she has that,

1721
01:24:19,805 --> 01:24:23,684
she will keep clinging to these two men
who do not deserve it.

1722
01:24:23,767 --> 01:24:25,269
Because her dad is flawed...

1723
01:24:25,852 --> 01:24:27,980
and, and missing,

1724
01:24:28,063 --> 01:24:30,107
and her grandpa is dead.

1725
01:24:30,190 --> 01:24:32,234
♪♪

1726
01:24:32,985 --> 01:24:34,903
There's nobody to save back there.

1727
01:24:51,128 --> 01:24:53,046
[Dr. Rose] How are you
feeling today, Sophia?

1728
01:24:55,048 --> 01:24:57,134
[Sophia] I just don't
wanna be a bad person.

1729
01:25:00,596 --> 01:25:03,473
I just wanna do right by the victims

1730
01:25:03,557 --> 01:25:06,143
and by my grandfather...

1731
01:25:06,226 --> 01:25:09,187
and I don't know how... I'm doing.

1732
01:25:09,271 --> 01:25:11,273
Like, I don't know if I'm doing it right.

1733
01:25:11,356 --> 01:25:13,108
[♪ somber music playing]

1734
01:25:14,067 --> 01:25:16,278
Rosemary, Leno LaBianca...

1735
01:25:16,945 --> 01:25:19,948
Steven Parent, Jay Sebring...

1736
01:25:21,199 --> 01:25:25,120
Frykowski, Folger, Hinman,

1737
01:25:25,662 --> 01:25:27,998
Sharon Tate, Sharon Tate's baby.

1738
01:25:28,665 --> 01:25:31,209
Nine people, after they were murdered,

1739
01:25:31,793 --> 01:25:35,213
they were revictimized
over and over and over again.

1740
01:25:36,548 --> 01:25:37,674
♪♪

1741
01:25:37,758 --> 01:25:42,929
[Dr. Rose] I heard you
recite those nine names

1742
01:25:43,013 --> 01:25:45,724
with such fluidity that it tells me

1743
01:25:45,807 --> 01:25:49,102
you're carrying these names on your heart.

1744
01:25:50,228 --> 01:25:53,440
The grief is getting bigger and bigger.

1745
01:25:54,775 --> 01:25:57,027
♪♪

1746
01:25:57,903 --> 01:26:01,073
You are holding onto something
that doesn't belong to you.

1747
01:26:03,700 --> 01:26:06,495
You can give this
to something bigger than yourself.

1748
01:26:08,872 --> 01:26:11,166
Do me a favor. Write down their names.

1749
01:26:11,249 --> 01:26:13,210
♪♪

1750
01:26:14,503 --> 01:26:17,547
You cannot be the holder of this, Sophia.

1751
01:26:20,217 --> 01:26:22,260
It's what this journey is about.

1752
01:26:22,344 --> 01:26:24,346
♪♪

1753
01:26:43,407 --> 01:26:45,617
[♪ faint guitar music playing]

1754
01:26:51,665 --> 01:26:54,793
[Sophia] [gasps] Oh, my-- [squeals]

1755
01:26:56,378 --> 01:26:57,921
It's Fun in Acapulco!

1756
01:26:59,214 --> 01:27:02,926
My dad would play this
every morning on vinyl...

1757
01:27:04,010 --> 01:27:06,388
to wake us up to get ready for school.

1758
01:27:07,055 --> 01:27:08,098
That's incredible.

1759
01:27:08,181 --> 01:27:11,560
My dad sold this vinyl record

1760
01:27:12,102 --> 01:27:14,521
when he was just super broke and had to...

1761
01:27:15,522 --> 01:27:17,315
get some money for food or whatever.

1762
01:27:17,399 --> 01:27:22,112
And... he sold
all of our vinyl, in-including this one.

1763
01:27:22,195 --> 01:27:24,239
And I've always wanted it back.

1764
01:27:24,322 --> 01:27:26,783
Not my granddaddy, but that's okay.

1765
01:27:30,078 --> 01:27:32,497
I'm keeping this. This is mine.

1766
01:27:33,206 --> 01:27:36,168
[♪ "Thoughts in My Mind" by
Donnie & Joe Emerson playing]

1767
01:27:36,251 --> 01:27:40,088
♪ Thoughts in my mind ♪

1768
01:27:42,174 --> 01:27:46,970
♪ About to unfold ♪

1769
01:27:48,638 --> 01:27:52,642
♪ What life is about ♪

1770
01:27:53,268 --> 01:27:54,644
[giggling]

1771
01:27:54,728 --> 01:27:58,857
♪ Just grieve all alone ♪

1772
01:27:58,940 --> 01:28:00,066
[young Sophia] Ah!

1773
01:28:00,150 --> 01:28:01,318
[lips squeaking]

1774
01:28:04,696 --> 01:28:08,450
♪ There's no one here ♪

1775
01:28:09,367 --> 01:28:11,203
-[Daniel laughs]
-Come on, Dad.

1776
01:28:11,286 --> 01:28:16,041
-[Daniel] That’s elderly abuse.
-♪ When I need someone ♪

1777
01:28:16,124 --> 01:28:17,667
Go, go! It looks great.

1778
01:28:18,460 --> 01:28:21,588
Beautiful. There you go.
That's what we want.

1779
01:28:21,671 --> 01:28:27,844
♪ Happy birthday, dear Sophia ♪

1780
01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:32,557
♪ Happy birthday ♪

1781
01:28:32,641 --> 01:28:37,521
♪ To you ♪

1782
01:28:37,604 --> 01:28:39,648
♪♪

1783
01:28:40,023 --> 01:28:41,274
Make a wish.

1784
01:28:50,075 --> 01:28:51,993
[Dr. Rose]
Talk to me about the past week

1785
01:28:52,077 --> 01:28:53,870
and how are you feeling?
How are things going?

1786
01:28:55,288 --> 01:28:57,666
My dad blocked my number.

1787
01:28:58,333 --> 01:29:01,545
He's-- Hasn't reached out to me.

1788
01:29:03,922 --> 01:29:05,841
I wish he acted...

1789
01:29:06,758 --> 01:29:08,927
in a way that is respectful.

1790
01:29:09,010 --> 01:29:10,679
I wanna respect him.

1791
01:29:10,762 --> 01:29:15,141
I've always had so much empathy
for him and compassion.

1792
01:29:16,476 --> 01:29:17,811
[Dr. Rose] Can I ask why?

1793
01:29:17,894 --> 01:29:21,648
[Sophia] Yeah, he put a lot
of intense dark memories

1794
01:29:22,315 --> 01:29:24,860
into my mind as a very young child.

1795
01:29:26,736 --> 01:29:29,114
[Dr. Rose] Sophia,
just putting together everything

1796
01:29:29,197 --> 01:29:32,534
that you described about your dad, um,

1797
01:29:32,617 --> 01:29:34,578
and those parts of your upbringing,

1798
01:29:34,661 --> 01:29:38,665
even the good stuff
as well as the bad stuff, um,

1799
01:29:38,748 --> 01:29:42,210
I, I suffice it to say
that your dad groomed you.

1800
01:29:42,294 --> 01:29:44,671
[♪ somber music playing]

1801
01:29:46,965 --> 01:29:53,013
Not for, you know,
salacious, sexual actions,

1802
01:29:53,096 --> 01:29:58,518
but to adhere to the story

1803
01:29:58,602 --> 01:30:00,645
that maintains his victimhood.

1804
01:30:00,729 --> 01:30:01,897
[car door opens]

1805
01:30:15,160 --> 01:30:18,788
[Daniel] Well, I'm busy! I'm working, man!
I'm trying to make a living, alright?

1806
01:30:18,872 --> 01:30:21,458
I got more important things to worry about

1807
01:30:21,541 --> 01:30:25,337
than your doctor appointment... okay?

1808
01:30:25,420 --> 01:30:28,131
That was last minute, not set up with me.

1809
01:30:30,425 --> 01:30:33,345
So, stop yelling at me
or I'm gonna start yelling!

1810
01:30:33,428 --> 01:30:36,056
You're the one that started yelling first,

1811
01:30:36,139 --> 01:30:38,224
and I have it all documented here on tape.

1812
01:30:40,310 --> 01:30:42,437
We'll go to the videotape
and we'll see who's yelling.

1813
01:30:46,191 --> 01:30:48,568
[Dr. Rose]
He poured everything into you...

1814
01:30:50,403 --> 01:30:53,114
so that you were the person
who always see his victimhood.

1815
01:30:54,658 --> 01:30:56,284
It means that you get
to control the narrative.

1816
01:30:56,368 --> 01:30:58,328
And only one person
wants to control the narrative,

1817
01:30:58,411 --> 01:31:00,372
and that person is the narcissist.

1818
01:31:02,165 --> 01:31:05,585
[Daniel] You're the one that wants
to run off to all your problems.

1819
01:31:07,128 --> 01:31:11,007
I'm the one who stuck it out,
who stuck around,

1820
01:31:11,091 --> 01:31:14,928
who's been there for you,
picks you up when you fall down,

1821
01:31:15,011 --> 01:31:17,847
wipes your nose
when you got it runny,

1822
01:31:17,931 --> 01:31:19,891
gives you medicine when you're sick.

1823
01:31:19,975 --> 01:31:21,935
♪♪

1824
01:31:23,979 --> 01:31:25,730
[Dr. Rose] Do you know
radical acceptance is the only way

1825
01:31:25,814 --> 01:31:27,107
to win with a narcissist?

1826
01:31:27,190 --> 01:31:28,650
[Sophia] Mm-hmm.

1827
01:31:28,733 --> 01:31:30,944
[Dr. Rose] And the radical acceptance
is that you'll never win.

1828
01:31:31,027 --> 01:31:32,529
Yeah, totally.

1829
01:31:35,657 --> 01:31:36,741
[Daniel] Then why are you yelling at me?

1830
01:31:37,909 --> 01:31:39,035
[Daniel] What? Oh, you--

1831
01:31:39,119 --> 01:31:40,286
[Sophia] I'm mad at you for--

1832
01:31:40,370 --> 01:31:41,746
[Daniel] Oh, you are, you are
schizophrenic, I'm sorry.

1833
01:31:41,830 --> 01:31:42,831
Drop me off on the corner.

1834
01:31:42,914 --> 01:31:43,999
I don't wanna ever talk to you again.

1835
01:31:44,082 --> 01:31:45,208
I don't care. I'm not mad at you.

1836
01:31:45,291 --> 01:31:46,918
-I don't care.
-[Daniel] Stop, right here!

1837
01:31:47,002 --> 01:31:48,086
-No.
-[Daniel] Yes!

1838
01:31:48,169 --> 01:31:50,046
-No.
-[Daniel] Stop, right now!

1839
01:31:50,130 --> 01:31:51,297
-Don't do that.
-[car door opens]

1840
01:31:52,298 --> 01:31:55,969
[Dr. Rose] I think he's trying
to feed even further his victimhood

1841
01:31:56,636 --> 01:31:59,639
by grabbing onto Charlie's narrative.

1842
01:32:00,598 --> 01:32:05,103
I wanna make sure that the grooming
you experienced with Dad,

1843
01:32:05,186 --> 01:32:07,355
that your relationship
with your grandfather

1844
01:32:07,439 --> 01:32:09,607
is not benefiting from that.

1845
01:32:12,652 --> 01:32:13,737
[Sophia] Hi, Dr. Schug.

1846
01:32:13,820 --> 01:32:15,071
-[Dr. Robert Schug] How are you?
-[Sophia] I'm good.

1847
01:32:15,155 --> 01:32:16,573
Thank you for having me.

1848
01:32:16,656 --> 01:32:18,199
-[Dr. Schug] Nice to meet you. Come on in.
-Sophia.

1849
01:32:18,283 --> 01:32:20,869
Later today I'm taking a inkblot test,

1850
01:32:20,952 --> 01:32:22,287
a personality test.

1851
01:32:23,705 --> 01:32:26,624
I don't know exactly
what I can get out of this test,

1852
01:32:26,708 --> 01:32:29,461
but I know my grandfather
took it a few times

1853
01:32:29,544 --> 01:32:33,840
and results varied
and progressed over the years.

1854
01:32:34,466 --> 01:32:35,592
Um...

1855
01:32:36,051 --> 01:32:37,302
so I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt

1856
01:32:37,385 --> 01:32:38,636
'cause, like, we talked about...

1857
01:32:40,555 --> 01:32:42,724
you know, the psychology world,

1858
01:32:42,807 --> 01:32:45,393
maybe it wasn't on point
in some of those years,

1859
01:32:45,477 --> 01:32:47,604
but they're comparing my results to his.

1860
01:32:47,687 --> 01:32:49,355
♪♪

1861
01:32:52,317 --> 01:32:54,736
[Dr. Schug] The data
from your grandfather comes

1862
01:32:54,819 --> 01:32:59,741
from a 1997 evaluation
at Pelican Bay State Prison.

1863
01:33:00,408 --> 01:33:03,369
For him, this particular five-day session,

1864
01:33:03,453 --> 01:33:06,956
he was in a wire mesh cage
and he was shackled.

1865
01:33:07,040 --> 01:33:08,541
His wrists and legs were shackled.

1866
01:33:08,625 --> 01:33:12,504
And, um, so, what his results
suggested was that,

1867
01:33:12,587 --> 01:33:14,714
first of all, hypomanic symptoms

1868
01:33:14,798 --> 01:33:17,801
like elevated mood, irritability,
that kind of thing.

1869
01:33:17,884 --> 01:33:22,180
A manic episode sometimes associated
with, like, a bipolar illness.

1870
01:33:22,263 --> 01:33:27,060
Distractability, euphoria,
grandiosity, irritability.

1871
01:33:27,143 --> 01:33:29,854
Yeah, my therapist told me that

1872
01:33:29,938 --> 01:33:32,023
whenever I describe my dad,

1873
01:33:32,107 --> 01:33:34,359
she said that, "Your descriptions of him

1874
01:33:34,442 --> 01:33:38,321
kind of match descriptions
of people with hypomania."

1875
01:33:38,404 --> 01:33:42,242
And I Googled it,
and I would notice that as a kid.

1876
01:33:42,325 --> 01:33:46,162
I was like, "Wow, my dad is so happy
over this very small thing."

1877
01:33:46,663 --> 01:33:48,623
And I thought that was a cool thing.

1878
01:33:48,706 --> 01:33:49,833
-[Dr. Schug] Yeah.
-It's, like, kinda charming.

1879
01:33:49,916 --> 01:33:51,000
It's kind of earnest.

1880
01:33:51,084 --> 01:33:52,502
It's like he's got a sparkle in his eye,

1881
01:33:52,585 --> 01:33:55,505
but then other times, he's so irritable.

1882
01:33:55,588 --> 01:33:57,298
It's kinda two sides
of the same coin, isn't it?

1883
01:33:57,382 --> 01:33:58,550
-Mm-hmm.
-It can be an asset

1884
01:33:58,633 --> 01:34:00,260
-and a liability, right?
-Right.

1885
01:34:01,094 --> 01:34:02,846
[Dr. Schug]
So, with your grandfather,

1886
01:34:02,929 --> 01:34:06,266
he was reporting
some thought disorganization,

1887
01:34:06,349 --> 01:34:10,645
um, some bizarre thoughts
and persecutory ideation.

1888
01:34:10,728 --> 01:34:13,481
The idea that people
were out to get him, right?

1889
01:34:13,565 --> 01:34:18,153
So, his results did speak
to some vulnerability

1890
01:34:18,236 --> 01:34:20,613
to, like, a psychotic illness
or psychotic break,

1891
01:34:20,697 --> 01:34:22,407
meaning a break from reality.

1892
01:34:23,199 --> 01:34:25,785
[Sophia] It makes sense
my grandfather's vulnerable to psychosis.

1893
01:34:25,869 --> 01:34:27,287
I think--

1894
01:34:27,370 --> 01:34:29,372
Like, I have ideas of...

1895
01:34:29,747 --> 01:34:31,749
when my dad has had a psychotic break.

1896
01:34:31,833 --> 01:34:33,042
-[Dr. Schug] Okay.
-Or when my grandfather

1897
01:34:33,126 --> 01:34:34,794
has had a psychotic break.

1898
01:34:34,878 --> 01:34:38,047
And then, finally,
in terms of personality traits,

1899
01:34:38,131 --> 01:34:43,011
some psychopathic, antisocial,
schizotypal, and narcissistic traits

1900
01:34:43,094 --> 01:34:46,222
really relating to kind of
operating without a conscience.

1901
01:34:46,306 --> 01:34:50,393
Now, you, on the other hand,
didn't have any of that.

1902
01:34:50,476 --> 01:34:52,979
It was a very,
we would call it "unremarkable"

1903
01:34:53,062 --> 01:34:55,732
in the sense that there--
nothing was really--

1904
01:34:55,815 --> 01:34:57,483
-No red flags, right?
-Okay.

1905
01:34:57,567 --> 01:35:00,695
[Dr. Schug] So, let's move on
now to the R-PAS,

1906
01:35:00,778 --> 01:35:03,656
the Rorschach Performance
Assessment System.

1907
01:35:03,740 --> 01:35:06,034
Okay, so this is gonna be, uh,

1908
01:35:06,117 --> 01:35:09,370
your grandfather's, uh,
Rorschach scores will be on the left

1909
01:35:09,829 --> 01:35:10,914
and yours will be on the right.

1910
01:35:10,997 --> 01:35:15,001
Okay, so the first score
is giving responses

1911
01:35:15,084 --> 01:35:18,129
that don't fit the blots,

1912
01:35:18,213 --> 01:35:22,133
that don't fit the way
other people see them.

1913
01:35:22,217 --> 01:35:25,178
-Is it unique...
-Yeah.

1914
01:35:25,261 --> 01:35:27,388
-[Dr. Schug] ...versus conventional?
-Normal.

1915
01:35:27,472 --> 01:35:31,559
[Dr. Schug] Your grandfather's
was elevated and as was yours.

1916
01:35:31,643 --> 01:35:33,144
In fact, yours was higher than his.

1917
01:35:33,228 --> 01:35:35,271
[Sophia] I would not
have thought I beat him.

1918
01:35:35,355 --> 01:35:37,190
-You beat him. You won, you won.
-[laughs]

1919
01:35:37,273 --> 01:35:40,360
This alone doesn't
make anybody crazy, right?

1920
01:35:40,443 --> 01:35:42,528
It's just the way
they're filtering information

1921
01:35:42,612 --> 01:35:43,905
coming in from the outside.

1922
01:35:43,988 --> 01:35:45,907
I think about this a lot.
Like, the, you know,

1923
01:35:45,990 --> 01:35:47,909
you look back historically
at, like, artists,

1924
01:35:47,992 --> 01:35:50,411
the fine line
between genius and madness, right?

1925
01:35:50,495 --> 01:35:53,248
An artist is able to see
outside of the box, right?

1926
01:35:53,331 --> 01:35:55,416
And so, it could be some of that too.

1927
01:35:55,500 --> 01:35:57,001
So, as expected,

1928
01:35:57,085 --> 01:36:01,256
um, his aggressive content score
was quite high.

1929
01:36:01,339 --> 01:36:02,674
-[Sophia] Yeah.
-[Dr. Schug] Looking at the blot

1930
01:36:02,757 --> 01:36:04,634
and seeing aggressive images

1931
01:36:04,717 --> 01:36:06,052
could mean a number of different things.

1932
01:36:06,135 --> 01:36:10,765
It could mean that a person identifies
with aggression, um, and power.

1933
01:36:10,848 --> 01:36:15,395
It could mean
that they're especially wary of that.

1934
01:36:15,478 --> 01:36:16,854
Like, they're on the lookout for it.

1935
01:36:16,938 --> 01:36:18,690
-Yeah.
-[Dr. Schug] Or that they identify,

1936
01:36:18,773 --> 01:36:20,483
perhaps, with being a victim of it, right?

1937
01:36:20,566 --> 01:36:22,652
So, it doesn't necessarily mean
you're aggressive.

1938
01:36:22,735 --> 01:36:24,320
-He's the perpetrator.
-[Dr. Schug] Right, right, right, right.

1939
01:36:24,404 --> 01:36:27,740
And you, on the other hand,
were just right down the middle.

1940
01:36:27,824 --> 01:36:29,867
His responses
were quite different from yours.

1941
01:36:29,951 --> 01:36:33,162
And I remember
your responses tended to be

1942
01:36:33,246 --> 01:36:38,084
more lighthearted and whimsical
and kind of creative.

1943
01:36:38,167 --> 01:36:42,714
At the very least, they weren't concerning
or scary or, or that kind of thing, right?

1944
01:36:42,797 --> 01:36:45,049
But one did jump out at me, right?

1945
01:36:45,133 --> 01:36:47,260
That yours was almost identical.

1946
01:36:47,343 --> 01:36:51,097
On one of the cards,
you had pointed out a mustache man.

1947
01:36:51,180 --> 01:36:54,475
So, on that same card,

1948
01:36:54,559 --> 01:36:56,477
your grandfather said it,
"Looks like a Hippie

1949
01:36:56,561 --> 01:36:58,896
with a mustache wearing shades."

1950
01:36:58,980 --> 01:37:02,692
The second part of these responses,
I think, is also very telling.

1951
01:37:03,359 --> 01:37:05,445
"Looks like a Hippie
with a mustache wearing shades

1952
01:37:05,528 --> 01:37:07,530
"with the Eiffel Tower on top of his head

1953
01:37:07,613 --> 01:37:09,657
and there are
two caterpillars on the side."

1954
01:37:09,741 --> 01:37:12,535
-So, it kinda went another place, right?
-Uh-huh.

1955
01:37:12,618 --> 01:37:15,371
[Dr. Schug] You, on the other hand,
"I think a weird creature, mustache man.

1956
01:37:15,455 --> 01:37:16,581
"The eyes, the mustache.

1957
01:37:16,664 --> 01:37:19,876
"I see the eyebrows kind of like
what you might see on a mask,

1958
01:37:19,959 --> 01:37:22,003
"and I don't know,
I've been to Japan or Indonesia

1959
01:37:22,086 --> 01:37:23,755
"and they have these crazy cultural masks.

1960
01:37:23,838 --> 01:37:24,881
It could be that."

1961
01:37:24,964 --> 01:37:28,885
Right? So, you put it
in a very kind of normative context,

1962
01:37:28,968 --> 01:37:31,220
and he just sort of went
somewhere else with it.

1963
01:37:31,304 --> 01:37:33,431
And there's another bit to the story

1964
01:37:33,514 --> 01:37:35,391
to sort of further cement that.

1965
01:37:35,475 --> 01:37:38,269
We can look at, um, the popular.

1966
01:37:38,353 --> 01:37:42,231
The higher the score,
the more likely a person is

1967
01:37:42,315 --> 01:37:46,110
to see conventional images in the cards.

1968
01:37:46,194 --> 01:37:48,780
Your grandfather
was below average on that.

1969
01:37:48,863 --> 01:37:52,075
You, on the other hand,
were way above average.

1970
01:37:52,158 --> 01:37:55,453
You don't have the signs
of thought disorder,

1971
01:37:55,536 --> 01:37:59,457
and you are able to see the world
in a conventional way.

1972
01:37:59,540 --> 01:38:01,667
-Mm-hmm. Yeah.
-[Dr. Schug] He was not.

1973
01:38:01,751 --> 01:38:05,046
So, if-if you came in here worried
that Dr. Schug was gonna tell you

1974
01:38:05,129 --> 01:38:06,881
you're just like Charles Manson, right?

1975
01:38:06,964 --> 01:38:10,301
You're not. These are
some of the ways you're not, okay?

1976
01:38:10,385 --> 01:38:13,262
I, I also wanted to touch
a little bit on the fact

1977
01:38:13,346 --> 01:38:15,973
that I've never once met a monster.

1978
01:38:17,850 --> 01:38:19,894
I've talked to people
who've done unspeakable things,

1979
01:38:19,977 --> 01:38:21,479
but I've never once met a monster.

1980
01:38:21,562 --> 01:38:23,481
I don't think your grandfather
was a monster.

1981
01:38:23,940 --> 01:38:27,902
You know, I think...
he was complex, right?

1982
01:38:28,945 --> 01:38:31,114
♪♪

1983
01:38:36,285 --> 01:38:38,287
[engine rumbling]

1984
01:38:40,915 --> 01:38:44,168
[Sophia] I know people
will always view me skeptically

1985
01:38:44,252 --> 01:38:48,172
because I am a descendant
of America's most notorious criminal.

1986
01:38:48,256 --> 01:38:49,590
♪♪

1987
01:38:51,300 --> 01:38:54,053
And I think that's the part
my dad can't handle.

1988
01:38:55,179 --> 01:38:57,640
[Daniel and young Sophia
yelling and laughing]

1989
01:38:59,392 --> 01:39:02,603
[voice breaking] The discovery that
his dad is Charles Manson is trauma

1990
01:39:03,187 --> 01:39:06,774
that threw him in a mentally
and emotionally vulnerable position.

1991
01:39:10,945 --> 01:39:12,363
And he bailed on me.

1992
01:39:13,448 --> 01:39:14,657
Again.

1993
01:39:17,201 --> 01:39:18,995
Despite everything,

1994
01:39:19,454 --> 01:39:22,123
I know that he took me
as far as he possibly could.

1995
01:39:23,833 --> 01:39:25,751
For everything he's done wrong...

1996
01:39:27,128 --> 01:39:29,130
I know he's tried his best to do right.

1997
01:39:29,213 --> 01:39:30,673
[♪ somber music playing]

1998
01:39:30,756 --> 01:39:33,634
When you found out Manson was your father,

1999
01:39:33,718 --> 01:39:37,388
did you have any second thoughts
about who we are

2000
01:39:37,472 --> 01:39:41,434
and if we're bad, if we're good,
if we're guilty, if we're--

2001
01:39:42,143 --> 01:39:45,563
You must have thought
some ill feelings about him.

2002
01:39:47,607 --> 01:39:50,401
It's hard for people actually who know

2003
01:39:50,485 --> 01:39:53,279
who their parents are
to even identify with somebody

2004
01:39:53,362 --> 01:39:55,740
who doesn't know who their parents are.

2005
01:39:55,823 --> 01:40:00,161
It's a void that can never be filled.

2006
01:40:00,244 --> 01:40:01,579
It gnaws at you.

2007
01:40:01,662 --> 01:40:02,997
It-It...

2008
01:40:04,749 --> 01:40:07,710
It's a terrible thing for anybody
to have to go through.

2009
01:40:09,504 --> 01:40:13,382
I, I didn't wanna subject you
to this darkness...

2010
01:40:14,091 --> 01:40:16,719
this terrible story.

2011
01:40:17,136 --> 01:40:21,140
So, I weighed it very heavily
for about two months,

2012
01:40:21,224 --> 01:40:25,645
uh, and I felt that actually
the best thing to do was

2013
01:40:25,728 --> 01:40:27,063
to be truthful with you

2014
01:40:27,146 --> 01:40:30,149
because that's what you deserve.

2015
01:40:30,566 --> 01:40:33,361
That's what I deserved,
but I never got it.

2016
01:40:34,320 --> 01:40:35,571
Come here.

2017
01:40:37,114 --> 01:40:38,658
[Sophia] [sobbing] You gave me
a much better childhood

2018
01:40:38,741 --> 01:40:40,701
than what your parents gave you.

2019
01:40:41,661 --> 01:40:43,287
[Daniel] And in return,
I gave it to myself

2020
01:40:43,371 --> 01:40:45,248
because I was able to give it to you.

2021
01:40:46,332 --> 01:40:50,127
My whole life has been
rescripting it through you.

2022
01:40:50,211 --> 01:40:52,129
♪♪

2023
01:40:53,256 --> 01:40:56,717
You were the only person
who ever, um, held my hand

2024
01:40:57,301 --> 01:40:58,928
and told me you loved me.

2025
01:41:00,388 --> 01:41:02,765
And I would've been
more like your childhood

2026
01:41:02,848 --> 01:41:04,433
if you were out of it.

2027
01:41:05,351 --> 01:41:07,478
[Daniel] [voice breaking]
That's why I didn't let go.

2028
01:41:07,562 --> 01:41:09,814
I fought my ass off.

2029
01:41:10,606 --> 01:41:12,400
-To keep me?
-[Daniel] To keep you.

2030
01:41:16,946 --> 01:41:20,324
[Sophia] Both my dad and Charles
had to take on last names

2031
01:41:20,408 --> 01:41:22,785
that were not in their bloodline.

2032
01:41:23,452 --> 01:41:28,541
My dad's last name, Arguelles,
is his stepdad's last name.

2033
01:41:29,083 --> 01:41:32,670
Charles Manson was born
to Kathleen Maddox.

2034
01:41:34,130 --> 01:41:36,799
But because he was a bastard child, uh...

2035
01:41:37,925 --> 01:41:39,927
he needed the name of a man.

2036
01:41:41,387 --> 01:41:44,890
And Manson happened to be
the guy Kathleen was dating.

2037
01:41:48,269 --> 01:41:50,271
Felt like I've never had a last name,

2038
01:41:50,354 --> 01:41:52,815
so it's a very exciting prospect
to have found a last name

2039
01:41:52,898 --> 01:41:54,609
for me that I really enjoy.

2040
01:41:56,068 --> 01:41:57,862
Things went horribly awry

2041
01:41:57,945 --> 01:42:00,948
with the name "Manson,"
and I just wanna give

2042
01:42:01,032 --> 01:42:04,910
my family lineage a second chance
with this new name.

2043
01:42:04,994 --> 01:42:07,163
♪♪

2044
01:42:07,913 --> 01:42:09,206
Maddox.

2045
01:42:10,583 --> 01:42:13,544
Maddox. Sophia Maddox.

2046
01:42:14,295 --> 01:42:15,921
Hi, I'm Sophia Maddox.

2047
01:42:16,005 --> 01:42:17,256
I'm not gonna bring the camera in

2048
01:42:17,340 --> 01:42:21,344
because I'm not allowed
to record anyway, so cheers.

2049
01:42:21,427 --> 01:42:23,554
♪♪

2050
01:42:27,350 --> 01:42:28,893
I love my dad.

2051
01:42:32,021 --> 01:42:33,648
My door is always open.

2052
01:42:38,235 --> 01:42:41,489
All I can do is
continue working on myself,

2053
01:42:42,031 --> 01:42:44,033
creating boundaries,

2054
01:42:44,116 --> 01:42:45,785
and just have it be about me

2055
01:42:45,868 --> 01:42:48,579
instead of trying to fix him
or trying to fix my grandfather,

2056
01:42:48,663 --> 01:42:50,164
let's just fix me.

2057
01:42:50,665 --> 01:42:51,957
So...

2058
01:42:52,625 --> 01:42:55,544
[Allie] And I have to say, like, the vibe
coming off you right now is very...

2059
01:42:55,628 --> 01:42:56,754
[Sophia chortles]

2060
01:42:56,837 --> 01:42:58,214
...is very uplifting.

2061
01:42:58,297 --> 01:43:00,633
[Sophia] [laughing] I know.

2062
01:43:00,716 --> 01:43:02,301
[Allie] Give yourself a bit of credit.

2063
01:43:02,385 --> 01:43:04,261
♪♪

2064
01:43:07,640 --> 01:43:10,059
[Dr. Rose] Sophia, you were the first one

2065
01:43:10,142 --> 01:43:12,353
in your lineage to be born free.

2066
01:43:13,562 --> 01:43:19,235
On top of that, I wonder if, uh,
yours was to lead and not to follow.

2067
01:43:22,029 --> 01:43:23,197
That's not... [laughs]

2068
01:43:23,280 --> 01:43:25,574
That's not the narrative
I grew up with. [laughing]

2069
01:43:27,034 --> 01:43:30,204
[Dr. Rose] Well, um, people who felt small

2070
01:43:30,287 --> 01:43:33,457
would wanna keep you small, so...
[laughing]

2071
01:43:33,541 --> 01:43:35,209
they can justify their height.

2072
01:43:36,752 --> 01:43:37,962
[Tom]
Somewhere out there, somewhere,

2073
01:43:38,045 --> 01:43:40,464
there's at least one son
that we know of that's your child.

2074
01:43:40,548 --> 01:43:42,425
Who's probably about 25
or 26 years old right now.

2075
01:43:42,508 --> 01:43:43,551
-Is that right?
-Yeah.

2076
01:43:43,634 --> 01:43:45,469
Look in that camera.
What do you say to that kid?

2077
01:43:45,970 --> 01:43:47,847
You gotta catch it on your own, boy.

2078
01:43:49,223 --> 01:43:52,393
Train's hard. The road's rough.

2079
01:43:52,852 --> 01:43:54,645
-And you wanna hear something?
-[Tom] Yeah.

2080
01:43:54,729 --> 01:43:56,147
He'll do it better than me. [laughs]

2081
01:43:56,230 --> 01:43:57,231
[Tom] Do what?

2082
01:43:57,314 --> 01:43:59,358
[Charles] Whatever he does. [laughs]

2083
01:43:59,692 --> 01:44:01,402
He'll do it a little better.

2084
01:44:01,777 --> 01:44:03,279
Kids do, don't they?

2085
01:44:03,362 --> 01:44:04,613
-[Tom] Sometimes.
-[Charles] Yeah.

2086
01:44:04,697 --> 01:44:06,699
[laughs] That's what
makes him such a gas.

2087
01:44:07,450 --> 01:44:09,076
They always seem to get through.

2088
01:44:10,745 --> 01:44:13,164
Ah, it's magic!

2089
01:44:14,039 --> 01:44:16,333
Whoo!

2090
01:44:16,417 --> 01:44:19,211
[♪ inspiring music swells]

2091
01:44:23,549 --> 01:44:26,719
It's time to let all of this go...

2092
01:44:28,179 --> 01:44:29,972
move on with my own life,

2093
01:44:30,681 --> 01:44:33,476
and do my own thing, separate from cameras

2094
01:44:33,559 --> 01:44:35,978
and separate from Charlie
and separate from my dad.

2095
01:44:37,730 --> 01:44:39,523
Now I've gotta find my own story...

2096
01:44:40,775 --> 01:44:41,984
separate from all of this.

2097
01:44:42,067 --> 01:44:45,237
And... God, I have no idea... [chuckles]

2098
01:44:45,321 --> 01:44:47,239
where I'm gonna go or what I'm gonna do.

2099
01:44:47,323 --> 01:44:49,867
♪♪

2100
01:44:54,789 --> 01:44:56,749
[♪ "Lay It Down Slow"
by Spiritualized playing]

2101
01:44:56,832 --> 01:45:03,589
♪ If you got dreams in your heart ♪

2102
01:45:03,672 --> 01:45:08,594
♪ Why don't you share them with me? ♪

2103
01:45:11,222 --> 01:45:15,226
♪ And if dreams don't come true ♪

2104
01:45:15,309 --> 01:45:22,316
♪ I'll make sure that
your nightmares are through ♪

2105
01:45:25,945 --> 01:45:32,201
♪ If you got pain in your heart ♪

2106
01:45:35,454 --> 01:45:40,459
♪ Why don't you share it with me? ♪

2107
01:45:43,087 --> 01:45:46,966
♪ And we'll just wait and see ♪

2108
01:45:47,049 --> 01:45:54,056
♪ If it's half of what it used to be ♪

2109
01:45:54,139 --> 01:45:56,350
[♪ song fades out]