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Downloaded from
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Official YIFY movies site:
YTS.BZ
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It's the police.
Simon Blackwell from Cheshire.
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Can we come in? We need to speak to you.
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- Yeah, come in.
- Thanks. Sorry about coming in…
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- Come on.
- Please, no!
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Not again! No!
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- I'll explain everything.
- No! I can't!
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I know it's upsetting.
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Just poke your head up there.
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- Okay.
- Oh no.
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- Lucy?
- Yeah.
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I'm gonna come in, okay?
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- Hello. Are you okay?
- Yeah.
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Hi, Lucy. Sorry that we've
come round so early and woken you.
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I'm **** from Chester MIT,
the Major Investigation Team.
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I'm arresting you on suspicion
of murder and attempted murder.
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You do not have to say anything, but
anything you say may be given in evidence.
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I appreciate it's quite the shock.
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What we need for you to do now, Lucy,
is we need you to get up and get dressed.
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- Okay, follow me down.
- Yeah.
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Please can I see my cat?
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Stay here for a sec.
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Look.
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You're all right.
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You know I didn't do it.
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- I know you didn't!
- I know!
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We know that!
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It's all right. Look after the boys.
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Just go in, Mum. Don't…
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Don't look, Mum. Just go.
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Mum, just go in.
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Okay, jump in there.
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Today, detectives took
a female health-care worker into custody…
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…on suspicion of murdering eight babies…
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…and the attempted murder of six others.
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We have gone through
the evidence case by case
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and given you the opportunity
to provide explanations throughout.
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It was unthinkable that
the young nurse sitting in front of us
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could be capable
of harming these vulnerable babies.
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You wrote a note
saying, "I am evil. I did this."
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It was and is
a once-in-a-generation-type case.
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It involves 17 babies across 13 families.
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If you haven't been involved
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in the collapses and deaths
of these babies,
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why did you write a note
which clearly states you were responsible,
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that you killed them on purpose?
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No comment.
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She was the young nurse
nobody would have suspected.
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One of the most prolific
child serial killers in UK history.
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Lucy Letby has been found guilty…
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…of killing seven newborn children.
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But did this unassuming nurse
really kill babies in her care?
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Today, a panel
of international medical experts…
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…independently reviewed medical records.
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Their findings go against
everything that's been heard in court.
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{\an8}In summary, ladies and gentlemen,
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{\an8}we did not find any murders.
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{\an8}This might be some of the craziest
true-crime news I have heard in a while.
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She is the most prolific serial killer
of children ever.
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I don't think she's done it.
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The story is absolutely tragic
and horrifying.
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She's innocent. Let her out, bruv.
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Is she guilty,
or is this woman actually innocent?
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This interview is being recorded.
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It's now recording every word
that is said in this interview.
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Introduce yourself, please.
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Lucy Letby.
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- Date of birth?
- Fourth of the first, 1990.
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This interview is your opportunity
to put forward your response
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to the reasons why you've been arrested.
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If you are innocent
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and have any reasonable explanation,
defense, or alibi,
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we will search for evidence
that will support you.
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We're not here to judge you.
Do you understand that, Lucy?
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Yes.
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Okay.
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We interviewed Lucy Letby
over numerous hours.
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{\an8}At the start, we asked her
a wide range of open questions
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about what happens at cot side.
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So tell me about what happens
with a baby's first feed.
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So the doctors will tell you
when they're happy
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for a baby to commence feeds.
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Yeah.
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And they would be fed
via the nasogastric tube.
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- Okay.
- Um…
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And we… Usually, for a premature baby,
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we would prefer to give either breast milk
or donor breast milk.
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We wouldn't usually give formula
to a baby of that size.
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Okay.
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She came across as a competent nurse
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who knew how to care for these babies.
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However, when we drilled in
as to why a specific baby had collapsed,
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she became a lot more vague
in her replies.
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We're gonna talk about ***.
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At 16:01 hours on 20th June 2015,
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she was born by cesarean section
and transferred to the neonatal ward.
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At 04:25 hours on 22nd June 2015,
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♪ was pronounced deceased.
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Is there anything you can tell us
about what happened to her?
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I don't really remember ***.
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Okay.
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So baby Zoe collapsed
on three separate occasions
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during one single night shift.
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We knew that Lucy Letby was at cot side,
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so why was it
she couldn't recall anything?
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You can't remember any collapse
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or any involvement in the care
at that time?
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No.
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Three weeks before my due date,
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I woke up, and my water had broken.
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This was it. It was happening.
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At the hospital, I got checked out,
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and a scan confirmed everything was fine.
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So we were ready to meet little Zoe.
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But it was not straightforward.
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I was in labor for 60 hours.
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I felt something wasn't right.
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So I insisted I needed a C-section.
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The doctor lifted Zoe above the sheet,
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but she seemed to be
struggling to breathe.
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She had to be taken to intensive care.
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It was hard
looking at her in the incubator.
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I couldn't take her out,
but I was able to hold her hand.
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She was so fragile,
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small, and precious.
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I became a mummy.
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The doctors were telling us
that she was responding very well,
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that she was responding as expected,
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and, um,
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there were no concerns.
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I was fast asleep
when a nurse turned the light on.
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She said, "You need to come right now."
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I asked, "What's going on?" She said,
"There's no time. We need to go."
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I remember being wheeled
down the long corridor, thinking,
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"What's going on?"
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I felt the panic in the room.
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The doctor was trying everything
to keep her heart pumping.
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He wasn't giving up.
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I wanted him to keep fighting.
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But the other doctor
put a hand on his shoulder and said,
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"You need to stop.
You need to let her go."
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The doctor was still holding Zoe,
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but… he stopped what he was doing.
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That was it. It was finished.
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It was over.
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My husband and I, uh,
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we just broke down, and…
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I… I…
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We were just saying, "What's going on?
What's just happened?"
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She was okay, so…
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I didn't… I… I was just so angry
and so sad and so confused, and then…
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Yeah.
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When Zoe died,
we didn't know what had happened.
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She'd started to improve.
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She wasn't expected to die then.
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{\an8}Why had she deteriorated?
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{\an8}Why didn't she respond
to the resuscitation?
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But what was an even bigger worry
was that Zoe was the third baby to die
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in just over two weeks.
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Some of those babies showed a strange rash
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and didn't respond to resuscitation
when we felt they ought to have done.
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That is a worry. Why did we have
three babies dying so soon together?
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Was there something we were missing
going on, on the unit?
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Although we'd hoped
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that those three deaths
might have been just bad luck,
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unfortunately, it didn't stop.
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Babies kept dying
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far more frequently
than I'd ever known it before on our unit.
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By February 16, there'd been nine deaths
that had occurred up till then.
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It became
a very frightening, worrying time.
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Some of the consultants asked for
an urgent meeting with the risk managers
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and with the director of nursing
in the hospital,
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but they didn't seem
particularly concerned.
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We'd never encountered anything like this
before, so we didn't know what to do.
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Then, in June 2016, things came to a head
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with two further deaths,
and we couldn't explain why they died.
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By this stage,
there were 13 unexpected deaths.
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In the 21 years I've been a consultant,
I'd never seen anything like this before.
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At that point, we realized
something now had to be done.
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I was one night at headquarters,
quite late,
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and I was given three separate reports
from the Countess of Chester Hospital.
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{\an8}They documented a spike
in numbers of baby deaths
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{\an8}and catastrophic collapses
within the neonatal unit.
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Between June 2015 and July 2016,
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there were 13 deaths.
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{\an8}The most concerning thing
from the clinicians, from the doctors,
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was that many of those deaths
and collapses weren't explainable.
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I'm told at this point
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that there was a member of staff
who had been moved off the unit.
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My initial thoughts were maybe
that's probably a little bit premature
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to try and identify a suspect.
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There could have been
any number of legitimate explanations
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for why so many babies had died.
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Were there mistakes made at the hospital?
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Was there
an uncontrolled infectious disease?
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Or could these babies have died naturally?
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We needed to understand
the medical circumstances
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that each of these babies
had been through.
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So it was crucial that we got
independent, credible medical experts
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who could give us an objective view
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of these babies
that had collapsed unexpectedly.
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[music fades[
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One morning, I was at home,
and I discovered this article
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about Cheshire Police investigating
a neonatal unit
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regarding a lot of baby deaths.
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And I thought, "Hmm, that's interesting."
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{\an8}"Sounds like my kind of case."
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I'd clocked up over 30 years' worth
of expertise and experience
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looking after sick babies.
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I had also clocked up several decades
as a medical expert witness
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for the criminal court.
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I said to the police,
"Let's have a look at one case
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just to give me
an idea of what's going on."
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00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:04,119
This particular baby
was born in good condition,
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a good-sized baby, over two kilos,
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00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,000
who had been stable
but had suddenly collapsed.
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I saw these photographs
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of big, marble-sized blood clots
under the liver,
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plus bleeding in the abdomen as well.
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But this looked awful to me.
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How on earth could a baby
who was doing very nicely
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end up with serious liver abnormalities?
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And within a few hours, the baby was dead.
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I said to the police,
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"I want to look at all the case notes
over this two-year period."
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I eventually got 32 cases
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and identified a suspicious event
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in about half of them.
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Babies whose collapse was unexpected
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and unexplained.
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This was unprecedented in my experience,
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and one had to think the unthinkable.
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Someone had intentionally harmed
these babies.
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That took our investigation
into a different sphere.
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It was that sickening reality
that this could be murder of a baby.
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The next question we had to answer was,
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"By who?"
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We examined everybody
who could've been in the area
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each time a baby died or collapsed.
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Which doctors were there?
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Which nurses were there?
Which family members were there?
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00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,239
Who had access to the drugs?
Who had access to the medical records?
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00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:04,639
And then keep testing.
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Who else could've been there?
Who else could've done this?
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00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:12,600
When we were looking at
the information, a clear pattern emerged.
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Out of 25 suspicious deaths and collapses,
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one name
continued to come out consistently.
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This nurse had a central role
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in all these events.
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And that was Lucy Letby.
252
00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,480
I remember the first day of lectures.
253
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,960
I'd walked into this massive lecture room.
254
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:05,880
I didn't know anyone.
255
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,800
So I went off and sat on my own.
256
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,720
But then another girl came over to me.
257
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,200
She sat down and said,
"Really nice to meet you. My name's Lucy."
258
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,760
There was something about her smile
that put me at ease straightaway.
259
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,039
And after four days at university,
260
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,840
we were basically inseparable.
261
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,640
We were in lectures together.
262
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,520
I'd go over to hers for dinner.
She'd come over to mine for dinner.
263
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,800
When we went clubbing,
we would go together.
264
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,400
If we'd been out for the night, I'd stay
at hers or she would stay at mine.
265
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,200
We'd go to the cinema.
266
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,240
Basically, everything that we did,
we did together.
267
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,960
She had a very quirky sense of humor.
268
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,360
It was just always… fun.
269
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:05,480
Lucy was an only child,
so her parents basically doted on her.
270
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,759
They were so proud of the fact
that she had gone to university
271
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,160
and she was going to become a nurse.
272
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,359
She wanted to learn.
She wanted to know everything,
273
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,280
to make sure she knew what she was doing.
274
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,279
Lucy and I had
our first placement together
275
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,280
at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
276
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,680
We were both
really quite excited about it.
277
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:39,920
But straightaway, the nurses in Chester
were quite… cliquey.
278
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,759
I remember we went to the staff room
to have lunch,
279
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,640
and the nurses who were there
were all sat chatting.
280
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,800
I remember Lucy trying to join in
with the conversation,
281
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:54,880
and they just ignored her.
282
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,799
There was this kind of feeling
that the nurses didn't want us there,
283
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,400
the medical team didn't want you there.
284
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,719
I started to think
that some people were actively
285
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,600
going out of their way
to make things hard for Lucy.
286
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,439
There was absolutely nothing I can think
that made them treat her that way,
287
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,720
except for the fact that they didn't like…
that she was shy and quiet.
288
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,079
I knew that I didn't want to stay
at the Countess,
289
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,840
but Lucy applied for a job
in the neonatal unit.
290
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,359
I didn't entirely understand
why she wanted to stay,
291
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:46,720
considering the way some of the nurses
and some of the consultants behaved.
292
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:53,760
I guess you could describe graduation
as a bittersweet time.
293
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,600
My family and her family
arranged to have dinner together.
294
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,999
{\an8}Lucy's parents were so proud
of her graduating.
295
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,600
{\an8}They put a big thing in their local paper.
296
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:10,999
But it was really sad as well
297
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,920
because I was worried
how she was going to cope.
298
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,360
Lucy was a quiet nurse.
299
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,480
She seemed conscientious. She seemed keen.
300
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,319
{\an8}She seemed competent,
as far as I could tell.
301
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,280
There was nothing about her
that made her stand out to me.
302
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,639
But by the end of 2015,
303
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,319
all of us consultants
were becoming concerned
304
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,520
about so many unusual deaths on the unit.
305
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:04,239
When a staffing review
was done, one common factor emerged.
306
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,719
There was only one person who was on duty
for all of those deaths,
307
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,040
and it was Lucy Letby.
308
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,680
I wasn't sure
what to make of that at first.
309
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,080
Is it pure coincidence,
or is she causing harm?
310
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,599
So we decided to discuss this
with the neonatal nurse manager.
311
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,879
But she was absolutely adamant
312
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,119
that Lucy Letby was
a competent, dedicated nurse,
313
00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:31,599
and it was unthinkable
314
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,560
that there should be any suggestion
she might be harming patients.
315
00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:41,159
Unfortunately, we continued to have
more deaths occurring at night,
316
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,600
and Lucy Letby had been on duty
for all of those deaths.
317
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,559
So the senior managers decided eventually
318
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:50,760
that Lucy Letby should be moved
onto day duties.
319
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,839
The deaths at night
and the collapses at night stopped,
320
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,040
but shockingly,
they started to recur during the day.
321
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,879
At that stage, we, as the consultant body,
322
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,920
realized that we could not delay
any further.
323
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,560
Lucy Letby had to be removed
from the neonatal unit.
324
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,119
Just under a year
after the investigation started,
325
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:27,880
I received an email from Lucy Letby
directly from her NHS email account.
326
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:34,600
She quoted the operation name,
which wasn't out, really, publicly.
327
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,359
She's effectively aware of colleagues
being spoken to, and she's not been,
328
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:44,520
and wants to know
when we're gonna speak to her.
329
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,799
I found it interesting
330
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,200
because I thought, "Well,
maybe she has got something to tell us."
331
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,279
We needed to ask Lucy Letby questions,
332
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,119
and the best way to do that,
the only way to do that,
333
00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:10,400
was to arrest her.
334
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:13,079
- Hello. Lucy, is it?
- Yes.
335
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,199
My name's **** from Cheshire Police.
Is it okay to step in two seconds?
336
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:17,880
- Uh, yes.
- Yeah? Thank you.
337
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,839
- Is there anybody else with you?
- Yeah.
338
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,599
- Who's here at the moment?
- My dad.
339
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,279
One of the officers is gonna go up
and just grab your dad.
340
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,359
- I need to have a quick chat with you.
- I'll go and grab your dad.
341
00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:30,920
Do you wanna come and take a seat?
342
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,039
Just to let you know,
this is a body-worn camera,
343
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,239
and you are being recorded
at the moment, okay?
344
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:38,159
Okay.
345
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,079
Are these the lights for the living room?
346
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,600
- Yeah.
- Yeah. Which one? Ah, there we go.
347
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,919
Lucy, I need you
to listen to me very, very carefully
348
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,999
because I'm gonna read out
some information.
349
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,560
- Okay.
- It's important you listen to me.
350
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,839
"Between March 2015 and July 2016,
351
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,919
the neonate team
of the Countess of Chester Hospital
352
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,999
experienced high mortality rates
of babies in their care."
353
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,599
"Following an internal review
in the Countess of Chester Hospital,
354
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,479
the case was referred to Cheshire Police,
355
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,519
who have been conducting
an investigation."
356
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,999
"As a result of the inquiries
and evidence gathered,
357
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,359
the offenses of murder
and attempted murder have been identified,
358
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:14,080
and you have been identified as a suspect
of these offenses."
359
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,959
You don't have to say anything,
360
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,039
but it may harm your defense if you do not
mention something you later rely on.
361
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,199
Anything you do say
may be given in evidence.
362
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,719
The arrest is necessary for the prompt
and effective investigation of the offense
363
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,840
and to protect a child
or other vulnerable person.
364
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,280
Do you understand
what I've just read out to you?
365
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,640
Lucy, what's gonna happen now
366
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,440
is you're gonna go to the police station
to be questioned about these allegations.
367
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,360
So these officers
are gonna go with you upstairs now.
368
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,759
You are now in our custody.
We have to stay with you
369
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,120
to make sure you remain with us
and nothing else happens to you or to us.
370
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,279
If there's any footwear
that you need to get on or…?
371
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,480
Are you gonna go in the clothes
you've got on? Um…
372
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,839
'Cause you're in a tracksuit,
so it's probably appropriate.
373
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,559
So we'll get you some footwear.
374
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:10,719
I just…
375
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,240
You got any shoes?
376
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,759
Everything else is
gonna have to remain untouched,
377
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,840
so we can't have you move anything around
or taking anything else, really.
378
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:25,880
Are you gonna search the house?
379
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,000
It will be searched, yeah.
380
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,559
Can I say goodbye to him?
381
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,360
- To your cat? Of course.
- Yeah.
382
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,719
This is just
for transportation reasons, okay?
383
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,959
It's just to make sure
that you're safe in the car
384
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,799
and that we are as well, all right?
385
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,040
As soon as we get to custody,
the cuffs can be taken off you, okay?
386
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,159
The phone woke me up around 6:00 a.m.
387
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:23,280
The person said,
388
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:25,879
"This is Cheshire Police."
389
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,360
"We are calling you to let you know
we have arrested someone
390
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,680
on suspicion of the murder
of your daughter."
391
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,399
All of a sudden, I realized
392
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,320
that someone could've
purposely targeted my child.
393
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,240
I… I…
394
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,120
We just were completely…
395
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:53,760
lost for words.
396
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,959
Right, okay.
397
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,920
Just step out of the car for me.
398
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,000
Okay, just put your arms out for me.
399
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,920
Just something there.
400
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,320
What's your current occupation?
401
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,600
Children's nurse.
402
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,480
Do you wanna take a seat there, Lucy?
403
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,719
A health-care worker has been arrested
404
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,879
on suspicion of murdering eight babies
and the attempted murder of six others
405
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,639
at the Countess of Chester Hospital
after a year-long…
406
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,320
As soon as I saw her face,
407
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,920
I recognized the nurse straightaway.
408
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,800
When I visited Zoe for the first time,
409
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,479
she had a clipboard,
but she wasn't actually doing any jobs.
410
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,720
She was just there, watching us.
411
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,679
Today's arrest confirms
the dreadful possibility
412
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,040
that newborns might have been murdered.
413
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,760
This news alert popped up on my phone.
414
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,359
I was shaking.
I was having, like, palpitations.
415
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,760
My heart was going.
416
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,840
"Why have they arrested Lucy?"
417
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:21,600
It was just complete disbelief.
418
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,160
I just thought
it was all a horrible mistake.
419
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,599
Okay, this interview is being recorded.
I am Detective Constable Lee.
420
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,879
- The other officer present is…
- 3201 Vikki Holt.
421
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,959
Please introduce yourself again
for me, Lucy.
422
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,280
Lucy Letby.
423
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,839
The ultimate objective
for interviewing Lucy Letby
424
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,919
was all about getting the truth
as to what happened to these babies
425
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,559
and ultimately provide her
with ample opportunity
426
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:56,839
to give an alternative explanation
427
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,400
as to why these babies rapidly fell so ill
or did collapse.
428
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,719
So, in general terms,
during the resuscitation,
429
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:05,959
what are the roles--
430
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,319
Usually, the medical staff
have the airway.
431
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,439
They would be delivering
the resuscitation drugs.
432
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:14,519
- So two people would be doing the drugs.
- Okay.
433
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,800
And then ideally have somebody
supporting the parents.
434
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:25,719
She was very knowledgeable.
She was calm. She was engaging.
435
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,639
And when talking about the processes
involved in the care of these babies,
436
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,080
she knew the answers to the questions.
437
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,399
So who takes the notes
during the resus attempts?
438
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,319
Ideally, you would have a scribe there.
439
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,919
So, usually,
one of the junior doctors would take on,
440
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,600
or one of the nurses would take on
the scribing role.
441
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,919
But when she was challenged
over certain points,
442
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,399
particularly her actions
around the time of the collapses,
443
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,799
I think she did become
slightly more evasive.
444
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,520
Just prior to the collapse, Lucy,
445
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,480
had you had any cause
to go into Nursery One at all?
446
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,559
I don't remember.
447
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,160
Right. Were you working in Nursery One?
448
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,119
I don't think I was, but I don't recall
which baby I was looking after.
449
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,000
Okay.
450
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:16,999
And you… you don't remember
451
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,360
the process of how you ended up
in Nursery One, with the resus?
452
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:21,720
No.
453
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,399
She would spend some time
thinking about a reply
454
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,719
and would almost leave it what felt like
a significant amount of time
455
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:31,760
before answering.
456
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,840
Are you aware
of why he required resuscitation?
457
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,919
No, I don't recall
the events leading up to that.
458
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,120
I just know that he had resuscitation.
459
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,480
These answers raised
some big questions for us.
460
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,759
Lucy Letby was in custody for many hours,
461
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,760
but we did not gather enough evidence
to charge her.
462
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,360
And there was
lots of information still to find out.
463
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,400
So after the interview,
Lucy Letby was bailed,
464
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,399
which gave us a chance
to gather further expert evidence
465
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,920
and take a really forensic look
at the materials we found on the searches.
466
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,880
There was a huge amount of material
to look through.
467
00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,880
We found a box
which had the word "keep" on the front,
468
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,360
and within it were baby handover sheets
from the hospital in Chester.
469
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,359
They were highly confidential documents
470
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,679
that contained personal information,
471
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,039
their name,
472
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,360
date of birth, and an overview
of their medical condition at that time.
473
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,719
On closer inspection,
some of these documents
474
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,959
related to the babies who'd collapsed
and subsequently died,
475
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,960
which was obviously deeply concerning.
476
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,800
Lucy Letby wrote lots of things
and clearly retained a lot of material.
477
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,000
So there was a lot of diaries
478
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:14,720
and Post-it notes.
479
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,760
We'd uncovered
some deeply concerning pieces of evidence.
480
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,840
It was clear that we had to get Lucy Letby
back into custody.
481
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,520
We needed to ask Lucy Letby
some very direct and difficult questions.
482
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,239
It's the police.
Simon Blackwell from Cheshire.
483
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:35,840
Can we come in? We need to speak to you.
484
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:39,319
Lucy?
485
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:40,160
Yes.
486
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,160
I'm gonna come in, okay?
487
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:44,439
Hi, Lucy.
488
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,239
Based on new and additional evidence
that's been obtained,
489
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,999
I'm arresting you for several offenses.
490
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,880
- Okay, follow me down.
- Yeah.
491
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,319
The strategy at this point
became quite simple.
492
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,439
There was a lot of evidence,
so it was clear
493
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,800
that I needed to stick to the facts
that she couldn't dispute.
494
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,399
If she could provide
an alternative explanation,
495
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:26,800
then now was the time.
496
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,919
This is a continuation
of a series of interviews, Lucy.
497
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,160
As you can see, the red light has come on.
498
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:39,999
This interview is
also being visually recorded
499
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,720
and monitored upstairs.
500
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,039
Your home address was searched,
501
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,680
and a large quantity
of these handover sheets
502
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,559
were found at your home address.
503
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:55,800
Can you explain that?
504
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,399
They're just sheets that have
inadvertently come home in my pocket.
505
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,880
I've not emptied my pockets
before coming home.
506
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,439
There were almost 250 handover sheets
507
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,879
which had been stored
in a chronological order,
508
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,200
so in date order.
509
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,479
She was clearly
a thorough and methodical person.
510
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,399
She was aware of the confidential
information that they contained,
511
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,839
and she definitely knew
that she shouldn't have had them.
512
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:29,399
So the idea
that she could have mistakenly taken home
513
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,680
250 confidential medical records
was astonishing.
514
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,760
Explain to me why you put them
all together in a folder.
515
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,679
I didn't know
how to dispose of them myself,
516
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:44,120
so I didn't dispose of them.
517
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,800
You didn't know how to dispose of them?
518
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:48,440
No.
519
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,679
Have you previously taken
any of these handover sheets home
520
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,160
and disposed of them?
521
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:01,240
No, I don't think so.
522
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,719
'Cause I haven't got a shredder,
and that's how I would…
523
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:06,800
that's how I'd have to get rid of them.
524
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,759
During the police searches,
525
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,799
we found a shredder in one of the bedrooms
at her home address,
526
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,560
so her account just didn't add up.
527
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,679
She could have herself
shredded them confidentially
528
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,080
and got rid of the documents,
but they were retained.
529
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:31,199
Do those sheets that are in your folder
that you kept at your home address, Lucy,
530
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,720
relate to babies
which you were designated nurse for?
531
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,080
Yes.
532
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,320
If we retain something,
we retain it for a reason,
533
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,400
because it's important to us.
534
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,120
During the searches,
we found a number of diaries.
535
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,920
When we started to look through them,
we stumbled upon some worrying detail.
536
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,999
There was entries
where she'd write initials down
537
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,639
which matched the initials
of suspicious cases
538
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:03,960
that we were investigating.
539
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,239
My colleague asked you
about the collapses of the babies,
540
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:12,560
and you said that you recorded those.
541
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,119
- Why?
- I think I've made reference.
542
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,159
I don't know
in what way I've recorded them.
543
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,000
Right.
544
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:22,759
There were a couple of dates
545
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,159
where we know
that one of the babies had collapsed
546
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,719
that she marked with an asterisk.
547
00:37:27,720 --> 00:37:30,199
I think there were some days
in my diary that I've…
548
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,880
I've asterisked or marked days that were…
549
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,800
that we had a baby
that was particularly unwell.
550
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,480
And what was the purpose of that?
551
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,240
Don't know. Just for my own…
552
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:42,800
Your own what?
553
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,600
I don't know.
My own reflection, I suppose.
554
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,120
Why would you want to reflect
on those, Lucy?
555
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,599
I don't talk to anybody about it.
556
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,680
I just internalize things
and do it in my own time.
557
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,159
From our point of view,
558
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,920
she was documenting
the baby that got attacked on that day.
559
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,519
During the second lot of searches,
560
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,000
we located a black bin bag in her garage.
561
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,399
There was a piece of paper
562
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,880
with some concerning notes
written upon it.
563
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,399
I'm gonna read you
an extract from it, and it says,
564
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,800
"Murderer. Murder."
565
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,320
"No one will ever know
what happened and why."
566
00:38:42,720 --> 00:38:44,679
Explain these comments to me, Lucy.
567
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:45,680
No comment.
568
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,400
Tell me about the comment "murderer."
569
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:51,320
No comment.
570
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,679
Are you suggesting there
that you are a murderer?
571
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:56,760
No comment.
572
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:00,039
Tell me about,
573
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,039
"No one will ever know
what happened and why."
574
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,719
- No comment.
- What does that mean, Lucy?
575
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:06,840
No comment.
576
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:11,879
You could see her starting to comprehend,
577
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,560
starting to understand
where this evidence was pointing towards.
578
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,239
Lucy, since you left the unit,
579
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:23,599
887 babies of 32 weeks' gestation
or greater
580
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,119
were born
at the Countess of Chester Hospital
581
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,920
and admitted to the NNU.
582
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:34,320
None of these babies since you left died
or deteriorated unexpectedly.
583
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,599
Have you got any comment
you wish to make about this?
584
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,680
No comment.
585
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,479
With all the evidence
we have available at this time,
586
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,679
it clearly shows
that you were the only person present
587
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:53,359
for all of the 25 collapses
and the deaths of the 17 babies
588
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,480
and would suggest you are responsible.
589
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,840
No one else, Lucy. Only you.
590
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:06,520
Lucy, f there is an explanation
for why you are responsible,
591
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,159
now is your final opportunity
to explain why this is to us.
592
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:12,240
No comment.
593
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:17,879
Okay.
594
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:23,119
Okay, the time by my watch is 16:10 hours,
595
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,240
and this interview is now concluded.
596
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:36,320
Lucy Letby had been spoken to
in detail about all of these babies.
597
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:42,079
It was the right time now to take stock
and review what evidence there was,
598
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,320
and at this point, she was bailed again.
599
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,839
I really struggled to imagine what Lucy
was going through when she was arrested
600
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,160
and she was being interrogated for days.
601
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:05,000
All I wanted to do was tell her
that I was there if she needed anything,
602
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,080
and not being able to do that
was heartbreaking.
603
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,200
But I never doubted
that she was completely innocent.
604
00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:25,439
We are now at the position
in the investigation
605
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,519
where there was lots of information
from interview, lots of witness accounts.
606
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,560
There was more expert evidence.
607
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,799
And when
it was systematically pieced together,
608
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:40,000
it was clear that everything
pointed to Lucy Letby's involvement.
609
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:43,959
Is she upstairs?
610
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,320
Yeah, I think so.
611
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,039
Hello. It's all right.
It's Cheshire Police. Okay?
612
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,759
Lucy, can I just turn the light on here?
613
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,480
- Yeah.
- Wanna go and take a seat?
614
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:58,000
Just…
615
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,359
Lucy, listen to me for a minute.
I'm **** from Cheshire Police.
616
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,959
I'm arresting you on suspicion
of the murder of ****,
617
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:10,479
the murder of ****,
618
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:11,880
the murder of ****.
619
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:15,880
Did you hear all that, Lucy?
620
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,880
What we're gonna need to do
is just get you dressed, okay?
621
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,240
The officers are gonna take you back
to the police station up in Chester, okay?
622
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,360
Lucy, do you wanna get some clothes on?
623
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,280
It's just for transporting purposes, okay?
624
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,080
Does that feel too tight?
625
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,319
You've got a little bit of movement
in there, okay?
626
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,840
Just got to make sure you can't get out.
627
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:48,760
Just take a seat there for us.
628
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:54,440
Can I just get in here?
629
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:19,079
A nurse has gone on trial
630
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:23,279
accused of killing seven babies
in a neonatal unit.
631
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,719
Lucy Letby looked after
the most vulnerable babies.
632
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:29,279
Arriving in a prison van for trial.
633
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:33,520
Accused of murdering seven babies
and attempting to murder ten others.
634
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,480
All the time, you're just thinking,
"Have we got it right?"
635
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,239
"Has the evidence been tested enough
for it to stand the scrutiny of trial?"
636
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:46,719
Opening the prosecution case,
Nicholas Johnson KC told the jury
637
00:43:46,720 --> 00:43:51,279
the collapse and deaths of the 17 children
were not naturally occurring tragedies.
638
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:52,960
They were the work
of the woman in the dock.
639
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,239
All I could think about was Lucy
640
00:43:58,240 --> 00:44:01,560
and the things she was going to
have to listen to people saying about her.
641
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,840
Preparing for the trial
was very challenging.
642
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,080
There wasn't one day
I wasn't thinking about Zoe.
643
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,839
I wanted to do her justice,
644
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,840
but I didn't want to go to trial
and be biased.
645
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,080
I knew
Lucy Letby was going to take the stand,
646
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,800
so I needed to face her.
647
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,119
She wore a light gray top
and dark gray trousers
648
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,159
and spoke only to confirm her name.
649
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:43,999
We had about 50, 60 journalists
from around the world
650
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:45,720
covering this court case.
651
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:50,039
I was sat on the front row
nearest to Lucy Letby,
652
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,720
and that was my vantage point
throughout the trial.
653
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:02,639
At the start of the trial,
654
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,000
the prosecution's opening statement
was, in itself, 90-plus pages.
655
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:10,679
They said there was a number of ways
656
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:14,640
that Lucy Letby inflicted harm
on those babies.
657
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:21,320
They ranged from physical trauma
to the throat or stomach…
658
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,839
They said that she removed airway tubes,
659
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,879
which desaturate the baby's oxygen supply
660
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,120
to cause a deterioration in that way.
661
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,799
She also would use overfeeding,
662
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,719
which inflates the stomach
and pushes the diaphragm towards the lungs
663
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:40,440
and restricts the breathing.
664
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,119
She changed her methods
and was creative to what she needed to do
665
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,440
to cause the deaths and collapses.
666
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,880
And now
the prosecution needed to prove that.
667
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,879
For the last seven months,
prosecutor Nick Johnson KC
668
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,159
has been setting out
the case against Lucy Letby.
669
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,319
Now he has his chance
to question her directly
670
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,640
about allegations that she murdered
and harmed babies in her care.
671
00:46:16,240 --> 00:46:18,519
For the first time since Zoe's death,
672
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,960
I was seeing Lucy Letby.
673
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,320
I sat three meters away from her.
674
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,960
She looked at me a dozen times, staring.
675
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,200
Every time she'd look at me,
I'd have to look down.
676
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,239
The atmosphere in the courtroom
677
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:45,160
was extremely tense.
678
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,839
As she gave evidence,
she seemed to have a good recall
679
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,439
of almost all of the 17 children
680
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,520
that she was said to have
deliberately harmed, except one.
681
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:01,720
When she was asked if she remembered Zoe,
682
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,280
she paused, and then she said no.
683
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,880
The whole room went sort of…
684
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,680
She was very businesslike in court,
685
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,800
as she was,
we were told, in her police interviews.
686
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:22,600
We're gonna talk about ***.
687
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,799
There's six pages there
of her medical charts
688
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,040
that you've got your name next to.
689
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,760
Is it fair to say
you were involved somewhat with her care?
690
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:34,360
Yes.
691
00:47:35,240 --> 00:47:38,160
Tell us about what happened to ***.
692
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:40,880
I don't really remember ***.
693
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,560
Do you recall getting involved
with the resuscitation at all?
694
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:48,440
Not that I remember.
695
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:57,400
{\an8}I told the court that baby Zoe was stable.
696
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:02,360
{\an8}There was no reason why she should
suddenly deteriorate, let alone collapse.
697
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,839
In the clinical notes, they noticed
this peculiar skin discoloration
698
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,720
that nurses and doctors said
they'd never seen before.
699
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,999
And there was also air found
in a blood vessel in the body,
700
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,000
what's known as air embolism.
701
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,239
It's just like an airlock
in your central heating,
702
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:23,600
which will stop the circulation.
703
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,879
I reviewed the literature
704
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,920
in relation to air embolus
in newborn babies,
705
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,479
one of which
was from two Canadian doctors,
706
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,759
Lee and Tanswell, published in 1989.
707
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,359
They'd observed
a very peculiar form of skin discoloration
708
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,120
as a result of air in the circulation.
709
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,639
This was more or less identical
710
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,319
to what the doctors described
711
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,640
for several of the babies
at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
712
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,559
Dr. Evans gave his considered opinion,
713
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,639
and the defense pushed back
and said, "Hang on a minute."
714
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,319
"There were differing reasons
715
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,599
why these babies
took a turn for the worse."
716
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,759
In some cases, they were ill at birth
and just got worse,
717
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,039
or in other cases,
the treatment was not up to scratch,
718
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,720
and that contributed
to that baby collapsing.
719
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:18,479
They were saying,
"You don't have enough evidence
720
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,720
to say that it's injection of air."
721
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,999
I explained to the jury
that babies on a neonatal unit
722
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:30,199
are connected to
a very sophisticated intravenous pump,
723
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,840
which stops air bubbles
going through the line.
724
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,600
If air cannot get
into the circulation accidentally,
725
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,679
then air can only get into the circulation
726
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,120
as a result
of somebody doing it intentionally.
727
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:53,319
I told the jury that, in my opinion,
little Zoe's deterioration
728
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,760
was a result of having air injected
directly into her bloodstream.
729
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,519
Dr. Evans said her collapse is consistent
730
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,679
with the effect of an air embolus
731
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,079
caused by an injection of air
into her circulation
732
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:11,760
when the designated nurse
was not in the room,
733
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:13,879
but you were.
734
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:14,880
Right.
735
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:17,920
Have you got any explanation
to that, Lucy?
736
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:19,280
No.
737
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,720
From the evidence provided, Lucy,
738
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,880
it shows that you were present
when *** collapsed.
739
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:28,760
Do you agree with that?
740
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,480
You were working in Nursery One
when a nurse was in there.
741
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,240
She had gone out for a reason.
742
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,000
If that's what she says.
I don't recall specifically where I was.
743
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,519
Is there a reason why you remembered
744
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,960
the administering of the medication
and not the collapses, Lucy?
745
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,519
No, I've only remembered the medication
from looking through the notes
746
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,640
and seeing
that I obviously did sign for medications.
747
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,599
Is it because you remember
the administration of the medication?
748
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,759
Because that's when you took
the opportunity to attack…
749
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:07,720
No.
750
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:09,559
…and administer air?
751
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,399
- No.
- No?
752
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:12,320
No.
753
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:25,400
Listening to all the evidence
around Zoe's death was very
754
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:27,440
painful.
755
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:35,200
The prosecution explained
how Lucy Letby entered the room and
756
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,560
inserted air
757
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:40,760
into
758
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,520
the tube.
759
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:53,320
I was looking over at Lucy Letby
to see what was her reaction to that.
760
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,119
But there was nothing in the dock
at any point
761
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:03,039
where she was visibly upset
about the harrowing detail
762
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:05,439
of what she was supposed to have done.
763
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,800
There was nothing. Zero.
764
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,799
What did they want her to do?
Sit there and sob every day,
765
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,880
howling, crying?
766
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,720
Pleading her innocence all the time?
767
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,720
'Cause I don't think
that's… realistic or feasible.
768
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,280
After baby Zoe's collapse,
Lucy Letby did message colleagues…
769
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,039
making them aware
that she'd sadly passed away
770
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,360
and went into detail
about the parents' reaction to it as well.
771
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,439
Parents are distraught, Dad's screaming,
772
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,440
and it was shocking, and she felt numb.
773
00:52:58,520 --> 00:52:59,959
There was a contradiction there
774
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:02,880
as to somebody who said,
"I can't recall anything about this."
775
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,439
We provided Lucy Letby
with her text messages
776
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,080
to aid her recollection of events.
777
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,119
She stuck to the same account
778
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:18,600
that she couldn't recall
any further details.
779
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:22,559
I don't think it's unusual
to text a colleague
780
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,680
to let them know
that someone's passed away.
781
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,719
And I don't think it's unusual
to text a colleague
782
00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:29,400
to say you've had a bad day.
783
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:34,520
It's a lot of pressure.
784
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,520
You might be on shift
for sort of 14 hours.
785
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,119
If a child starts to deteriorate,
786
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,920
it's the bedside nurse
that's going to pick up on that.
787
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:45,360
It's scary.
788
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,160
The way you process it
is through talking to your colleagues.
789
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,560
So I don't understand
what motive they were trying to make.
790
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,400
During the trial, Lucy Letby was asked
about her Facebook searches.
791
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:11,799
Lucy Letby spent some time
looking up Zoe's parents
792
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,280
and searching on Facebook
both Mum and Dad, which was odd.
793
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:21,000
On 25th June,
you did a Facebook search for ***.
794
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,120
And on 25th June again,
you then searched for *****.
795
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,760
Do you agree you made those searches
on Facebook, Lucy?
796
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,760
I don't think I recall doing it,
but, yes, I must have if it's there, yeah.
797
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:40,359
Were you looking for photographs
of the babies, Lucy?
798
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:41,200
No.
799
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,639
The defense said there's nothing sinister
in these searches at all.
800
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:50,199
Effectively, they said,
"She's just a bit nosy."
801
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,320
- You don't know what you were looking for?
- No.
802
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,319
There was a lot
of circumstantial evidence in this case
803
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,679
that, in the cold light of day,
804
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,199
didn't always look good for Letby.
805
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,119
But there's nothing illegal
about texting a colleague
806
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,240
or searching for somebody on Facebook.
807
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:13,559
To prove the case beyond doubt,
808
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,720
the prosecution needed
something more concrete.
809
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:24,679
A lot of the evidence in this case
was dense and complicated, medically.
810
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:28,320
But two cases,
according to the prosecution,
811
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,479
there was incontrovertible evidence.
There's no dispute.
812
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,000
We've got a record of this happening,
and she can't deny it.
813
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,639
There were two babies in the trial
that Lucy Letby was accused of harming
814
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,440
by administering insulin to them
when they didn't need it.
815
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,559
It's extremely dangerous to give anyone
insulin when they don't need it.
816
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,520
It can cause coma and even death.
817
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,839
Whoever gave him his insulin
would have done so
818
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,159
knowing it would've placed him
in harm's way
819
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:00,679
and could have caused his death
820
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,839
or led to him having
irreversible life-changing injuries.
821
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,000
Do you agree with that statement, Lucy?
822
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,000
Yes.
823
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,879
In court, Letby's defense team
824
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:19,399
had to agree
that this was done deliberately.
825
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:23,079
There was a poisoner on the ward,
826
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,320
but it must've been somebody else.
827
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,399
Even Lucy Letby agreed
that the artificial insulin
828
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,999
had been administered into babies
and had caused collapses.
829
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:36,800
So somebody's done that.
830
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,079
When they asked Lucy,
831
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:45,039
"Do you accept that there'd been
synthetic insulin in the baby's system?"
832
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,720
that's the evidence that's being presented
to her. She can't not accept it.
833
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,519
But by saying, "Yes, I accept it,"
834
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,560
it was almost like they were trying
to trap her into saying, "And I did it."
835
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,559
Lucy Letby wasn't just on shift
at crucial times.
836
00:57:04,560 --> 00:57:09,999
Her signature was on vital medication,
including a nutrition bag,
837
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:14,680
which our experts were saying
was contaminated with insulin.
838
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,200
You've confirmed your signature
on the TPN prescription.
839
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,239
- Did you administer…
- No.
840
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,560
- …insulin into the bags of TPN, Lucy?
- No.
841
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:32,879
These nutrition bags were kept
in the same locked fridge as the insulin,
842
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,760
a fridge that Lucy Letby had access to
with the keys.
843
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,720
Lucy Letby had a clear opportunity
to commit these crimes.
844
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:48,239
Now, it could have been accidental,
or it was deliberate,
845
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:52,080
and the Crown's case was always
that it was deliberate sabotage.
846
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:57,160
Letby's defense team
struggled to counter that.
847
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,759
When you look at all the evidence
that was presented,
848
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,680
objectively,
it couldn't have been anyone else.
849
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,919
The question to you is,
did you administer insulin?
850
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,079
No.
851
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,040
Because the experts think someone has.
852
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,039
You were caring for him.
853
00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:15,000
I didn't.
854
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,120
- Do you know who did?
- No.
855
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,159
Now the jury had evidence
856
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:26,880
of a baby who had been
deliberately poisoned with some substance.
857
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:29,719
To use the vernacular,
858
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:31,600
it was a smoking gun.
859
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,639
Assessing the character of Lucy Letby,
860
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:44,319
it's fair to say
there is a missing piece of the jigsaw,
861
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,000
and that's the question of,
"Why has all this happened?"
862
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,279
The one thing that stood out
863
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,880
was the Post-it notes
found in the police searches.
864
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,280
These notes are quite mesmerizing.
865
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,840
They're like a Jackson Pollock painting
866
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:07,920
but with words.
867
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:14,639
There's no room. They're completely
filled up with odd phrases, odd words.
868
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,200
It's a confusing picture.
869
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:18,680
"I killed them,"
870
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,680
"I am evil," "I did this,"
is a shocking thing to read.
871
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,159
What is it
that's driven her to write that,
872
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,039
and what is it that she's done
873
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:32,480
that's made her believe
that she is an evil person?
874
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,840
You wrote a note saying,
"I am evil. I did this."
875
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,119
"I don't deserve to live."
876
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:41,880
"I killed them on purpose."
877
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:44,680
"I am a horrible, evil person."
878
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:47,959
Explain why this is to us.
879
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:49,000
No comment.
880
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,800
In everybody's mind,
you think, "Done deal."
881
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:57,760
"Game over."
882
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,880
"She's committed these crimes,
and she's confessed to them on paper."
883
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,119
One thing I'll never understand
884
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,840
is why the defense didn't call
any expert witnesses.
885
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,959
You had the one from the prosecution
who was able to say whatever they wanted,
886
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,000
and I felt like Lucy didn't have anyone
887
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,280
to stand with her and say,
"These are the other explanations."
888
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,399
The jury in the trial
of the nurse Lucy Letby
889
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,800
has retired to consider its verdict.
890
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:42,680
Waiting for the verdict was very
891
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:44,840
stressful.
892
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,400
I felt helpless.
893
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,199
I remember just constantly being like,
894
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:56,600
"When this is over,"
895
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,600
you know, "when the truth is out,
896
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:02,280
when they realize they've made a mistake,
897
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,200
this is what we're going to do.
These are the plans we're going to make."
898
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,200
This goes one of two ways.
899
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:13,639
Either she's innocent
900
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:17,079
and she's this terrible victim
of miscarriage of justice
901
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,719
who's had her whole life
turned upside down,
902
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,719
or, alternatively,
903
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:23,960
she's a child serial killer.
904
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:28,760
The stakes couldn't get any higher.
905
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:35,599
We want to bring you
this very urgent breaking news.
906
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,719
Lucy Letby has been found guilty…
907
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:41,799
…of murdering seven babies,
of attempting to murder six others…
908
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:47,119
Calculating, cunning,
cruel, cowardly serial killer Lucy Letby.
909
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,359
Tonight, she eclipses Myra Hindley
and Beverley Allitt
910
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,919
to become the worst child murderer
in British modern history.
911
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,319
After a ten-month trial,
Lucy Letby has now been found guilty.
912
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:00,639
This is probably the most evil woman
I've ever heard of.
913
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,960
The most prolific child serial killer
of modern times.
914
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:13,800
I just couldn't imagine,
like, why they'd done this.
915
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,880
Once I got over
the disbelief of all of it,
916
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,400
I was just really scared for her.
917
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,359
I felt relieved, happy,
918
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:29,200
and then instantly… broken
919
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:31,279
because now this is true,
920
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:36,200
and… I can't escape this reality.
921
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,760
There was no elation
or satisfaction from myself or the team.
922
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:50,000
For those families,
it was just a… overwhelmingly
923
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:54,680
difficult, traumatic… outcome.
924
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:02,159
Lucy Letby, because the seriousness
of your offenses is exceptionally high,
925
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,680
you will spend the rest of your life
in prison.
926
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,960
I felt I needed to say sorry
to my daughter.
927
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,640
In my head, I failed… as a mum.
928
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:23,999
I was asleep when this was happening,
929
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,000
and I…
930
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:32,600
stayed up all throughout… the painful…
931
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:36,839
labor, birth,
932
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:41,159
and when she needed me, I wasn't there.
933
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:43,400
This is not something I…
934
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:47,440
forgive myself.
935
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,759
Having followed the Lucy Letby case
from the moment of arrest
936
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:09,680
and seen this play out,
937
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:11,439
as a barrister,
938
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:13,440
I was deeply concerned.
939
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:16,239
We have to remember,
940
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,720
{\an8}no one saw her do anything wrong.
941
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,439
{\an8}There's no CCTV.
942
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,320
There was no motive.
943
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:25,719
None.
944
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,719
Joining us now is Mark McDonald,
criminal barrister. Good morning to you.
945
01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:29,639
Morning.
946
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:34,359
What are your thoughts on
a very complicated, very emotional case?
947
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:36,679
{\an8}It is a complicated
and it is an emotional case,
948
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,239
{\an8}but it actually follows
a long line of convictions
949
01:04:39,240 --> 01:04:41,559
{\an8}that have happened in this country
and internationally.
950
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:43,279
{\an8}Many of those convictions
951
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,599
{\an8}have been found to be
miscarriages of justice.
952
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:50,679
{\an8}Each one of the hypotheses
that were put forward by the experts
953
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:51,959
{\an8}was a theory.
954
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,599
{\an8}The jury have been sitting through
all of this evidence.
955
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,519
{\an8}- They have made that decision--
- And they may have got it wrong.
956
01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,799
It was the first time
957
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:04,319
that somebody had spoken publicly
and said, "Hold on here."
958
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,080
"I think something's gone seriously wrong
in this case."
959
01:05:08,720 --> 01:05:12,439
Following the interview,
I was approached by Lucy's parents.
960
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:14,239
They were distraught.
961
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,119
They had nowhere to go,
and they asked me to help,
962
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:19,880
and I said yes.
963
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,120
So I started looking at the case.
964
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,880
Now, the defense didn't call
any expert evidence at all.
965
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:32,080
I don't know why.
966
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:34,960
Whether or not they just thought
967
01:05:36,120 --> 01:05:40,040
the charges were so ridiculous
they wouldn't be needed, I don't know.
968
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:41,840
But I wish they had.
969
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:48,159
{\an8}When I was instructed,
I was presented with one narrative.
970
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,039
{\an8}There was no questioning
in relation to her conviction.
971
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,040
{\an8}Letby was guilty.
972
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:57,520
{\an8}There were newspapers
that had the words "evil" across them.
973
01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:02,840
But they knew the flaws of the way
the prosecution had presented their case.
974
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:06,199
There were several times
throughout the trial
975
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:08,760
that they referred to scribbles,
976
01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:12,840
where Lucy had written her thoughts down.
977
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:16,479
"I am evil." "I did this."
978
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:20,440
That was the note that went on
all the front pages the next day.
979
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:27,360
What didn't go on the front page were
the notes which kind of contradicted that.
980
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:29,759
Words like "slander,"
981
01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:31,319
"discrimination,"
982
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:32,880
"victimization,"
983
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:34,680
"bastards."
984
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:42,799
Okay, Lucy, I am really concerned
about what you've written down
985
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:45,000
and what you've implied you might've done.
986
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:49,560
Anything you want to tell us?
987
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:54,240
I just wrote it
'cause everything had got on top of me.
988
01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:01,720
It was when I had not long found out
I'd been removed from the unit.
989
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:09,519
I felt like they were…
blaming my practice,
990
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:13,120
that I might have hurt them
without knowing, through my practice,
991
01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:15,960
and that made me feel guilty.
992
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,120
Do you want to elaborate on
some of the things you put down on there?
993
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:27,200
I was blaming myself.
994
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:32,959
But not because I'd done something.
995
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:36,040
Because of the way
people were making me feel.
996
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:43,959
I felt like I'd only ever done my best
for those babies,
997
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:47,479
and then people were trying to say
that my practice wasn't good
998
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:51,120
or that I'd done something,
and I just… I couldn't cope with it.
999
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:57,920
And I did just not wanna be here anymore.
1000
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:04,040
You say, "There are no words.
"I can't breathe. I can't focus."
1001
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:07,960
I just felt like it was all just
1002
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:12,599
spiraling out of control.
I just didn't know how to feel about it
1003
01:08:12,600 --> 01:08:14,720
or what was gonna happen or what to do.
1004
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:21,119
Just felt that the trust and the team
were trying to imply
1005
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:23,640
that it was something that I'd done.
1006
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:28,480
Was there any individuals
that… implied that?
1007
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:35,840
Yeah, some of the consultants.
1008
01:08:37,440 --> 01:08:41,520
Can you give a reason why
they might wanna victimize you or…
1009
01:08:43,760 --> 01:08:45,480
point the finger towards you?
1010
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,599
It crossed my mind at times whether
they were trying to put the blame on me
1011
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:54,720
for something that somebody else had done.
1012
01:08:57,800 --> 01:09:00,959
When Lucy Letby was taken off the unit,
1013
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:05,639
she was given counseling and support
by occupational therapy
1014
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:07,760
at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
1015
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:12,479
She was told to write down her feelings
and her thoughts
1016
01:09:12,480 --> 01:09:14,439
as a form of therapy.
1017
01:09:14,440 --> 01:09:18,719
It wasn't a confession note… at all.
1018
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,879
If we're to believe
that she did write the notes
1019
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:24,599
shortly after she was removed
from the unit,
1020
01:09:24,600 --> 01:09:27,280
her version of events were plausible.
1021
01:09:28,480 --> 01:09:31,440
In terms of overwhelming fear and panic,
1022
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:33,880
what were you afraid of?
1023
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:37,160
That they were going to think
I had done something wrong.
1024
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:41,480
Okay, and what would happen
if they thought that?
1025
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:44,040
That this would happen.
1026
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:47,360
- Right.
- That the police would get involved.
1027
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,680
- And is that what happened--
- And I'd lose my job.
1028
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:56,080
And was it a job that you enjoyed?
1029
01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:58,000
Yeah.
1030
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:00,719
Yeah, I loved my job.
1031
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:01,720
Okay.
1032
01:10:03,480 --> 01:10:07,439
From the defense perspective,
she was a devoted nurse
1033
01:10:07,440 --> 01:10:10,039
who had been moved away
from the job she loved,
1034
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:13,080
who was mentally anguished, distraught.
1035
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:20,399
In many ways, the Post-it note neatly
sums up the complexities of the case.
1036
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:22,360
At first blush,
1037
01:10:23,440 --> 01:10:27,039
it does look like just a plain confession.
1038
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:28,960
But when you delve deeper,
1039
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,080
things were not so straightforward.
1040
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:38,960
Up until the trial and the verdict,
1041
01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:42,480
I would write to Lucy,
and she would write back.
1042
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:46,640
{\an8}I would always try to be really positive.
1043
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,040
And now I don't know what to say.
1044
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:55,439
"Maisie, there are no words
to describe my situation,
1045
01:10:55,440 --> 01:10:58,319
but knowing that I have
your friendship, regardless,
1046
01:10:58,320 --> 01:10:59,920
is so important and special to me."
1047
01:11:01,480 --> 01:11:03,640
"I have my own room and toilet."
1048
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:07,439
"I'm able to shower each day
and go outside for a walk."
1049
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:10,920
"Getting outside is so important,
even though it's a bit chilly."
1050
01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:13,759
"I miss Tigger and Smudge so much.
It's heartbreaking
1051
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,239
that they cannot understand
why I'm no longer there."
1052
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,599
"They must think I'm a terrible mummy."
1053
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:22,640
"Mum and Dad are taking good care of them,
though, and are no doubt spoiling them."
1054
01:11:23,160 --> 01:11:26,439
"I'm trying to do all that I can
to remain strong and positive."
1055
01:11:26,440 --> 01:11:29,400
"I'm determined
to get through this. I will not give up."
1056
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:33,680
I'm sorry.
1057
01:11:43,480 --> 01:11:48,280
Something quite spectacular
took place in the summer of '24.
1058
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:52,720
A journalist in America
for The New Yorker magazine
1059
01:11:53,320 --> 01:11:56,839
dissected everything
that may have gone wrong at that trial
1060
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:00,920
and turned the spotlight from Lucy Letby
1061
01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:03,760
to the Countess of Chester Hospital.
1062
01:12:05,480 --> 01:12:09,879
And what the article did
was sow the seeds of doubt,
1063
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:12,239
asking the ultimate question,
1064
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:15,319
"Was this unit fit for purpose?"
1065
01:12:15,320 --> 01:12:18,560
And, "Was Lucy Letby
being used as a scapegoat?"
1066
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:22,600
This was a unit in crisis.
1067
01:12:23,200 --> 01:12:27,279
Nurses were crying at the end of the shift
because of the stress,
1068
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:29,319
because of them being overworked,
1069
01:12:29,320 --> 01:12:32,159
because of them having
so many babies on the unit
1070
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:35,160
and not having the staff
or the resources to run it.
1071
01:12:36,920 --> 01:12:40,679
I remember being left maybe once a week
1072
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:42,799
on my own with a high-dependency baby
1073
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:46,039
and being told,
"So they'll probably be fine,
1074
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,920
but if they go blue,
just give us a shout."
1075
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:53,560
A student nurse should never be left alone
with a high-dependency baby, ever.
1076
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:02,959
One of the most compelling parts
of the prosecution case,
1077
01:13:02,960 --> 01:13:04,559
certainly in their opening speech,
1078
01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:08,240
was the rota that had the Xs
down the whole column.
1079
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:14,719
The purpose of such a rota is simple.
It's compelling evidence for the jury,
1080
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:19,000
and they can say that she was always there
when something went wrong.
1081
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,079
But the fact is
we know this is a very small unit,
1082
01:13:23,080 --> 01:13:25,479
and she did extra shifts.
1083
01:13:25,480 --> 01:13:28,599
We also know
that Lucy Letby had done extra courses
1084
01:13:28,600 --> 01:13:31,959
and was more qualified than many
of the nurses that worked on the unit,
1085
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:35,080
which meant that she got
the sickest babies.
1086
01:13:35,600 --> 01:13:37,879
So the real question is, it seems to me,
1087
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,920
it would be odd if she wasn't there
when something went wrong.
1088
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:48,159
During the trial, the prosecution kept on
saying to the jury,
1089
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:53,239
"The babies stopped dying
when Lucy Letby was taken off the unit."
1090
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:57,239
But the moment
that Lucy Letby was taken off that unit,
1091
01:13:57,240 --> 01:13:58,799
it was downgraded,
1092
01:13:58,800 --> 01:14:04,600
which meant it did not receive
as many babies that were seriously ill,
1093
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:09,240
which meant the mortality rates
were always going to drop.
1094
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:17,120
I felt that it was important to expose
the flaws in what had taken place.
1095
01:14:17,720 --> 01:14:22,119
But to be able to do that,
I needed to change the narrative.
1096
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:24,159
I'm joined now by Mark McDonald.
1097
01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:26,399
{\an8}Mark McDonald joins us now.
1098
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:28,759
I think I've got quite a lot of evidence
1099
01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,479
to say that there are
some real concerns here.
1100
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:34,479
Suddenly, it started to mushroom.
1101
01:14:34,480 --> 01:14:37,959
Lucy Letby was convicted
of murdering seven infants
1102
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,719
and attempting to murder seven more,
which, in my view,
1103
01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:42,559
is a clear miscarriage of justice
1104
01:14:42,560 --> 01:14:45,999
by a judicial system that could not manage
1105
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:50,199
admittedly difficult statistical
and medical scientific evidence.
1106
01:14:50,200 --> 01:14:53,879
Central to the prosecution case
was a man called Dr. Dewi Evans.
1107
01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,240
He was their lead prosecution expert.
1108
01:14:57,320 --> 01:15:00,599
He was the person
who had seen these medical notes
1109
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:04,159
right from the beginning
and come up with the initial hypothesis
1110
01:15:04,160 --> 01:15:08,759
of how each baby,
he says, died or became ill.
1111
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:10,919
It all centered around him
1112
01:15:10,920 --> 01:15:14,520
and his reliability as an expert witness.
1113
01:15:16,040 --> 01:15:19,520
During the trial,
the most remarkable thing had happened.
1114
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:25,679
A Court of Appeal judge sent an email
to the trial judge
1115
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:30,079
criticizing, in very robust terms,
Dr. Dewi Evans,
1116
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,599
saying that he would tailor his evidence
1117
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:36,520
depending upon who was instructing him.
1118
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:41,080
In short, he is biased.
1119
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:45,519
Why would a senior judge
who's not involved in the trial
1120
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:50,079
let the trial judge know
the serious concerns he had
1121
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:53,720
in relation to the reliability
of Dr. Dewi Evans?
1122
01:15:54,320 --> 01:15:57,879
But my problem was that
the Court of Appeal had come to the view
1123
01:15:57,880 --> 01:16:01,160
that Dr. Dewi Evans was a reliable expert.
1124
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:04,479
So what I needed to do was to find out
1125
01:16:04,480 --> 01:16:09,479
whether or not
what he was saying was correct.
1126
01:16:09,480 --> 01:16:14,840
I needed not the person who read
the book and became the expert.
1127
01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:17,680
I needed the person who wrote the book.
1128
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,120
I was in the middle of harvest
on the farm and quite busy
1129
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:33,720
when an email appeared on my phone.
1130
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:36,320
It was from a lawyer in the UK.
1131
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:41,399
{\an8}A paper that I had written in 1989
on air embolism had been used
1132
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:44,800
to convict a nurse in an ICU in the UK.
1133
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:50,119
Dr. Shoo Lee was absolutely crucial.
1134
01:16:50,120 --> 01:16:52,159
It was his paper, his research.
1135
01:16:52,160 --> 01:16:54,239
If it wasn't correctly interpreted,
1136
01:16:54,240 --> 01:16:57,480
does that mean
that Dr. Dewi Evans got it wrong?
1137
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:02,599
I was worried
1138
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:05,719
because if my paper
had been misinterpreted,
1139
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:07,400
then we've got a big problem on our hands.
1140
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:13,359
I looked at the evidence,
and I realized that they did not describe
1141
01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:18,320
the kind of skin discoloration
that were diagnostic of air embolism.
1142
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:20,479
What they had described
1143
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:25,560
was skin discoloration
due to hypoxia, or lack of oxygen.
1144
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:29,359
This means
that the conviction was potentially wrong.
1145
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:30,840
I was very troubled.
1146
01:17:31,360 --> 01:17:34,279
Potentially, a young woman could be
in jail for the rest of her life
1147
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:36,480
and to die in prison for the wrong reason.
1148
01:17:38,080 --> 01:17:40,839
I told Mark McDonald
that I would assist in the case,
1149
01:17:40,840 --> 01:17:45,879
and I would convene a panel of 14
of the top experts from around the world
1150
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:50,120
whose expertise, credibility,
and knowledge were beyond reproach.
1151
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:55,359
Our aim was to write a detailed report
1152
01:17:55,360 --> 01:17:59,760
about the causes of death or injury
in each of the cases.
1153
01:18:04,360 --> 01:18:08,320
Mr. McDonald is representing
his client, and he's got a job to do.
1154
01:18:09,680 --> 01:18:12,079
We've always said
that we would invite any challenge
1155
01:18:12,080 --> 01:18:13,920
because I think challenge is good.
1156
01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:18,720
And so we looked forward to hearing
what they'd got to say.
1157
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:27,320
Coming to London,
I felt a tremendous pressure.
1158
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,039
We were going to convey
the results of the panel
1159
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:35,880
whose opinions would have a huge bearing
on the outcomes of this case,
1160
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:38,279
not only for Lucy Letby
1161
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:42,400
but also for the families, for the public,
and for the judicial system.
1162
01:18:45,320 --> 01:18:47,080
We are surrounded.
1163
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:50,399
Hello, everybody.
1164
01:18:50,400 --> 01:18:53,959
You're absolutely convinced
that an innocent woman has been sentenced?
1165
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:54,999
Yes, I am.
1166
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:57,280
- Thank you for your time.
- We've got to get started.
1167
01:18:59,480 --> 01:19:03,319
Right, we're going to start a little early
since there are one or two of you here.
1168
01:19:03,320 --> 01:19:06,999
What we're here to do
is to present a report
1169
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:09,599
which is the idea,
1170
01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:13,079
the genesis of Dr. Shoo Lee,
who's sitting next to me.
1171
01:19:13,080 --> 01:19:17,879
With no more ado,
may I introduce, uh, Dr. Shoo Lee,
1172
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:20,120
uh, the star of today's show.
1173
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:21,759
Thank you.
1174
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,759
"Here is the star of the show."
1175
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:26,199
This is not a show.
1176
01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:27,559
There is no star.
1177
01:19:27,560 --> 01:19:30,280
This is nothing to smile about.
1178
01:19:31,200 --> 01:19:37,160
The audacity from a politician
to introduce someone like this,
1179
01:19:37,680 --> 01:19:38,999
it is disgusting.
1180
01:19:39,000 --> 01:19:42,559
Just to summarize all the findings we had
1181
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:45,000
in terms of the medical problems
that we are seeing,
1182
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:49,000
we found that the medical histories
were incomplete.
1183
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:53,680
There was misdiagnosis of diseases
in these babies,
1184
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:57,120
inadequate numbers of appropriately
trained personnel in the unit,
1185
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:00,760
and difficulty in finding a doctor
when the need arose.
1186
01:20:02,680 --> 01:20:04,599
Professor Lee was very clear
1187
01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:06,919
that harm had not been
deliberately inflicted
1188
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:08,519
on any of the babies,
1189
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:11,599
and it was substandard care
that had led to the babies collapsing.
1190
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:13,360
In some of them, their death.
1191
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:17,879
It's frustrating
because in some of the criticisms,
1192
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:19,480
there's a kernel of truth.
1193
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:21,999
We were understaffed.
1194
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:26,999
That's generally true in most departments,
on most wards in the NHS.
1195
01:20:27,000 --> 01:20:32,559
But we'd had those same staffing pressures
before 2015, 2016,
1196
01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:34,360
and we'd not had
those increased deaths then.
1197
01:20:38,760 --> 01:20:42,359
So blaming a colleague,
which is a dreadful thing to do,
1198
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:45,479
for possibly murdering
and attempting to murder babies
1199
01:20:45,480 --> 01:20:48,959
is the worst way in the world
to try and cover up
1200
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:52,040
problems and inadequacies
on the neonatal unit.
1201
01:20:56,400 --> 01:21:02,199
One of the first things I did was look to
the survival rates of babies in Chester
1202
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:04,960
prior to all the deaths
and all of the collapses.
1203
01:21:06,960 --> 01:21:11,519
And the survival rate
was as good as the official figures
1204
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:13,840
for England and Wales for those years.
1205
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,480
This was not a failing unit.
1206
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:20,839
They had to resuscitate the baby using…
1207
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:24,799
We went through case by case of each baby.
1208
01:21:24,800 --> 01:21:29,479
Now, the allegation
is that baby four was a stable baby
1209
01:21:29,480 --> 01:21:32,239
after the baby was born
and admitted to the NICU.
1210
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:36,799
This was not a stable baby,
as alleged by the prosecution witness.
1211
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,360
I wasn't warned they were gonna bring up
my daughter's case.
1212
01:21:40,960 --> 01:21:45,479
This baby was born after prolonged
premature rupture of membranes.
1213
01:21:45,480 --> 01:21:47,280
If the membrane is ruptured,
1214
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:49,320
infection can ascend.
1215
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:52,999
{\an8}The mother should be
given antibiotics right away
1216
01:21:53,000 --> 01:21:56,120
{\an8}so that the baby can be
protected from any infection.
1217
01:21:56,640 --> 01:21:58,680
{\an8}In this case, that was not done.
1218
01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:03,119
Once my water had broken,
1219
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:05,639
they should've
given me antibiotics quicker.
1220
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:08,560
They failed me. They failed Zoe.
1221
01:22:10,600 --> 01:22:15,319
But every doctor, nurse, and expert
all clearly said
1222
01:22:15,320 --> 01:22:17,639
Zoe was improving.
1223
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:20,000
She was getting better.
She was getting stronger.
1224
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:23,279
There was delay in starting antibiotics
1225
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:26,880
and delay in starting treatment
for the respiratory distress.
1226
01:22:27,400 --> 01:22:30,280
We did not find any evidence
of air embolism.
1227
01:22:32,360 --> 01:22:35,199
Well, I don't agree with Dr. Lee.
1228
01:22:35,200 --> 01:22:37,399
He's not produced any new evidence.
1229
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,399
All he's done is produce new opinion.
1230
01:22:40,400 --> 01:22:42,359
The decision of the jury
1231
01:22:42,360 --> 01:22:47,719
was approved by three eminent,
experienced Court of Appeal judges.
1232
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:50,800
That should be the end of it,
in my opinion.
1233
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:56,160
Our conclusion of this panel, therefore,
1234
01:22:56,760 --> 01:23:02,359
there was no medical evidence to support
malfeasance causing death or injury
1235
01:23:02,360 --> 01:23:04,720
in any of the 17 cases in the trial.
1236
01:23:05,440 --> 01:23:06,839
There were serious problems
1237
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:10,160
{\an8}related to medical care of patients
at this hospital.
1238
01:23:10,680 --> 01:23:12,919
{\an8}There were problems related to teamwork
1239
01:23:12,920 --> 01:23:18,040
{\an8}and interdisciplinary collaboration
at the Countess of Chester Neonatal Unit.
1240
01:23:20,160 --> 01:23:23,920
{\an8}In summary, ladies and gentlemen,
we did not find any murders.
1241
01:23:24,440 --> 01:23:27,319
If there was no murder,
then there was no murderer.
1242
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:30,560
And so why was Lucy Letby in jail?
1243
01:23:31,480 --> 01:23:34,560
Baby killer or victim?
1244
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:38,239
You can see
the level of interest in this case
1245
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:40,199
that has gripped the UK and beyond.
1246
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:41,679
If it's not Lucy Letby,
1247
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:44,919
then there is clearly something else
within that hospital
1248
01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:46,839
that was fundamentally going wrong.
1249
01:23:46,840 --> 01:23:50,439
I'd love your calls. Do you have doubts
over the conviction of Lucy Letby?
1250
01:23:50,440 --> 01:23:53,799
{\an8}The press conference was a game changer.
1251
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:56,239
{\an8}People were no longer
sitting on the fence.
1252
01:23:56,240 --> 01:24:00,839
{\an8}Please tell me I'm not the only person
at the moment thinking about Lucy Letby
1253
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:04,519
{\an8}and the fact that it seems
that she has wrongfully been convicted.
1254
01:24:04,520 --> 01:24:08,119
Suddenly, she wasn't
this evil person anymore,
1255
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:09,479
this angel of death.
1256
01:24:09,480 --> 01:24:13,079
Suddenly, people were asking the question,
1257
01:24:13,080 --> 01:24:15,439
"Is Lucy Letby innocent?"
1258
01:24:15,440 --> 01:24:17,879
{\an8}Nah, bruv. We don't think
she killed those babies.
1259
01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,599
My head is absolutely blown by this.
1260
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:22,799
In a lot
of the serial-killer documentaries,
1261
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:25,199
they had a weird history.
They were killing animals.
1262
01:24:25,200 --> 01:24:27,479
They weren't like Lucy Letby.
1263
01:24:27,480 --> 01:24:29,120
I don't think she's done it.
1264
01:24:34,960 --> 01:24:36,599
Some people are claiming
1265
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:40,479
that we consultants had
a vendetta against Lucy Letby.
1266
01:24:40,480 --> 01:24:42,160
Where's your evidence for that?
1267
01:24:45,560 --> 01:24:48,360
I've been accused online
of killing babies,
1268
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:50,680
which is shocking.
1269
01:24:54,400 --> 01:24:55,920
I live with two guilts.
1270
01:24:56,440 --> 01:24:58,519
Guilt that we let the babies down,
1271
01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:01,839
and tiny, tiny, tiny guilt,
1272
01:25:01,840 --> 01:25:03,520
"Did we get the wrong person?"
1273
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:07,919
There's a guilt, you know, just in case…
miscarriage of justice.
1274
01:25:07,920 --> 01:25:10,479
I don't think
there was a miscarriage of justice.
1275
01:25:10,480 --> 01:25:12,200
But you worry that
1276
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:14,960
no one actually saw her do it.
1277
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:25,999
Over the last few years,
I've gone through questioning
1278
01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:30,080
had she presented one side to me
and a different side to other people?
1279
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:37,879
And there's always doubt
because as much as you… know someone,
1280
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:41,559
you never… know the whole of someone.
1281
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:45,359
They can still have…
things that you don't know about them.
1282
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:46,200
But
1283
01:25:47,400 --> 01:25:50,959
unless I saw actual evidence,
1284
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:52,360
I can't believe it.
1285
01:25:55,240 --> 01:26:00,320
I know that people think
that… I support a baby murderer.
1286
01:26:01,600 --> 01:26:04,720
But she's my friend and currently in jail.
1287
01:26:06,760 --> 01:26:07,800
Forever.
1288
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:20,919
Dr. Shoo Lee and the experts
finalized the report,
1289
01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:24,039
and I put it
into the Criminal Cases Review Commission,
1290
01:26:24,040 --> 01:26:25,200
the CCRC,
1291
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:29,519
who, with any hope,
will send it back to the Court of Appeal
1292
01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:31,240
to push for a retrial.
1293
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:46,920
A young woman could be in jail
for crimes that she did not commit.
1294
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:49,559
It is a huge responsibility
1295
01:26:49,560 --> 01:26:53,560
because it is
also Lucy's, potentially, last chance.
1296
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:01,319
It's easy for our villains to be villains
1297
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:04,400
and to look like villains
and to act like villains.
1298
01:27:07,440 --> 01:27:08,760
That's not Lucy Letby.
1299
01:27:10,080 --> 01:27:14,560
But that doesn't mean she's not capable
of doing what she was convicted of doing.
1300
01:27:18,120 --> 01:27:23,240
What was interesting about this case
was the volume of circumstantial evidence.
1301
01:27:27,440 --> 01:27:30,120
Singularly, they don't prove
1302
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:33,040
that she's a cold-blooded murderer.
1303
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,120
But when you bring it all together,
1304
01:27:38,000 --> 01:27:40,120
you'll be forgiven for thinking,
1305
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:44,040
"If this woman's innocent,
1306
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:47,160
then she's pretty unlucky."
1307
01:27:49,640 --> 01:27:52,279
We've spent several days
1308
01:27:52,280 --> 01:27:54,719
questioning and discussing with you
in depth
1309
01:27:54,720 --> 01:28:00,359
your involvement in the murders
and attempted murders of 17 babies,
1310
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:03,400
which you have constantly denied, Lucy.
1311
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:06,919
Have you got any comment you wish to make?
1312
01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:07,960
No comment.
1313
01:28:11,440 --> 01:28:13,799
The last message
we wanted to give to families
1314
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:17,040
was that somebody
had murdered their child.
1315
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:24,759
The only person who knows truly
why she did each of these awful events
1316
01:28:24,760 --> 01:28:26,240
is Lucy Letby herself.
1317
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:32,840
In an environment now where
there is considerable public discussion,
1318
01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:35,719
I stand by the investigation
1319
01:28:35,720 --> 01:28:37,520
and the search for answers.
1320
01:28:39,960 --> 01:28:41,079
But most importantly,
1321
01:28:41,080 --> 01:28:44,079
we feel for the families
who are having to watch this
1322
01:28:44,080 --> 01:28:49,320
and go through a lot of distressing
suggestions around their babies.
1323
01:29:02,600 --> 01:29:05,760
There's no getting over any of this.
1324
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:10,040
There's the sorrow,
1325
01:29:10,680 --> 01:29:14,480
but there's the hope
and the love we have for her.
1326
01:29:15,160 --> 01:29:17,839
Ultimately, we're still here,
1327
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:20,439
and I want to count my blessings
1328
01:29:20,440 --> 01:29:22,840
and appreciate what I have.
1329
01:29:30,880 --> 01:29:34,080
I was strong enough to try again.
1330
01:29:36,840 --> 01:29:41,280
My husband and I have a beautiful son.
1331
01:29:43,400 --> 01:29:45,320
He is our reason
1332
01:29:46,720 --> 01:29:47,640
for everything.
1333
01:29:53,480 --> 01:29:57,560
I have always talked to him about Zoe.
1334
01:30:00,840 --> 01:30:03,480
He knows she died when she was a baby.
1335
01:30:06,120 --> 01:30:08,080
He knows she's in heaven.
1336
01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:17,240
It's been storm after storm, and
1337
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:19,920
it's not over,
1338
01:30:20,480 --> 01:30:22,320
but I want to make it through.